Why Joe Shmoe ends up disliking Japan
Mike W.
it seems that Japan also turns some people into vitriolic critics. You can use
the simpleton Tanaka method to explain this ('They are all white, racist
Americans') or the only marginally less imbecilic 'They don't understand/try
to adapt to a different culture' response. But looking at the experiences of a
few acquaintances who ended up hating Japan I think another cause is more
common. Let's take the example of Joe Shmoe (not his real name- his real
name is Dave Shmoe).
Joe Shmoe lives in a country in which there are many immigrants. Joe Shmoe
likes this- he thinks that the variety of races and cultures in his country
give it vitality and color, more than exists in what he considers to be bland,
conservative white society. Joe has friends of different ethnic backgrounds
and appreciates the foods, customs and music.He even tries to get involved in
comunity festivals etc., he may even belong to groups aiding people from
these countries.
Joe wants to travel awhile- get away from white, boring, middle-class
suburbansville. He wants to become a Global citizen. He wants to be a GOOD
global citizen and learn about others and invest himself in their societies.
He hers that Japan is 'different' and enticing yet is a good place to live-
low crime, healthy, high tec. He goes there planning to live and work there
for a few years.
Joe studies Japanese and takes time to learn the customs in order to be a
good guest. He tries to get involved in the community- to contribute. He
finds that his way is blocked. That he is an outsider, treated suspiciously
despite his good intentions. He tries to get 'into the real Japan' to go
beyond the superficial touristic layer. But he finds his way blocked at every
turn. He finds it difficult to make friends. Most of his associations are on
the level of 'my Gaijin friend'. He tries to help things by giving opinions
but is told that 'you are not Japanese; you don't understand.'
Joe becomes bitter. Joe believes in intergration, mutual undersanding and
friendship. He hates racial segregation. But the Japanese aren't playing by
these rules. The Japanese are not PC. They hesitate at intergration. They
seem to resent or fear mixing in any deeper sense. This runs counter to Joe's
liberal, progressive ethics. He feels that the Japanese have violated his
internationalist sensibilities. Ironically, this was how he had thought about
the conservative white homeland he left. He thus now hates Japan even
moreso for disilluisioning him.
Note that Joe is not the redneck, conservative, cultural ignoramus that Japan
bashers are so often made out to be. How representative is this scenario? Is
Joe justified in his anger or is he just a cross-cultural neophyte who should
have known better?
Mike Wadi ('fikeru')
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Prince Richard Kaminski
"Mike W." wrote:
>
> Although most foreigners posting in these quarters seem to be fond of Japan
> it seems that Japan also turns some people into vitriolic critics. You can use
> the simpleton Tanaka method to explain this ('They are all white, racist
> Americans') or the only marginally less imbecilic 'They don't understand/try
> to adapt to a different culture' response. But looking at the experiences of a
> few acquaintances who ended up hating Japan I think another cause is more
> common. Let's take the example of Joe Shmoe (not his real name- his real
> name is Dave Shmoe).
>
> Joe Shmoe lives in a country in which there are many immigrants. Joe Shmoe
> likes this- he thinks that the variety of races and cultures in his country
> give it vitality and color, more than exists in what he considers to be bland,
> conservative white society. Joe has friends of different ethnic backgrounds
> and appreciates the foods, customs and music.He even tries to get involved in
> comunity festivals etc., he may even belong to groups aiding people from
> these countries.
>
> Joe wants to travel awhile- get away from white, boring, middle-class
> suburbansville. He wants to become a Global citizen. He wants to be a GOOD
> global citizen and learn about others and invest himself in their societies.
> He hers that Japan is 'different' and enticing yet is a good place to live-
> low crime, healthy, high tec. He goes there planning to live and work there
> for a few years.
>
> Joe studies Japanese and takes time to learn the customs in order to be a
> good guest. @He tries to get involved in the community- to contribute. He
> finds that his way is blocked. That he is an outsider, treated suspiciously
> despite his good intentions. He tries to get 'into the real Japan' to go
> beyond the superficial touristic layer. But he finds his way blocked at every
> turn. He finds it difficult to make friends. Most of his associations are on
> the level of 'my Gaijin friend'. He tries to help things by giving opinions
> but is told that 'you are not Japanese; you don't understand.'
>
> Joe becomes bitter. Joe believes in intergration, mutual undersanding and
> friendship. He hates racial segregation. But the Japanese aren't playing by
> these rules. The Japanese are not PC. They hesitate at intergration. They
> seem to resent or fear mixing in any deeper sense. This runs counter to Joe's
> liberal, progressive ethics. He feels that the Japanese have violated his
> internationalist sensibilities. Ironically, this was how he had thought about
> the conservative white homeland he left. He thus now hates Japan even
> moreso for disilluisioning him.
>
> Note that Joe is not the redneck, conservative, cultural ignoramus that Japan
> bashers are so often made out to be. How representative is this scenario? Is
> Joe justified in his anger or is he just a cross-cultural neophyte who should
> have known better?
I agree 100 per cent with your insightful appraisal of the situation.
But I don't think it's anything worth getting angry about. It's just the
way it is. It will change, if it changes at all, only very slowly over
many years. In the end it's for the individual to decide whether to put
up with it or to find another environment in which he or she feels more
comfortable.
Ryan Ginstrom
Mike W. wrote in message <7d2u8b$e9v$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Although most foreigners posting in these quarters seem to be fond of Japan
>it seems that Japan also turns some people into vitriolic critics. You can
use
>the simpleton Tanaka method to explain this ('They are all white, racist
>Americans') or the only marginally less imbecilic 'They don't
understand/try
>to adapt to a different culture' response. But looking at the experiences
of a
>few acquaintances who ended up hating Japan I think another cause is more
>common. Let's take the example of Joe Shmoe (not his real name- his real
>name is Dave Shmoe).
>
Sounds like a good example of your (ii): "They don't understand/try to adapt
to a different culture"
It reminds me of what a friend told me once: "I can get along with
anybody -- and I just don't understand people who can't."
Regards,
Ryan Ginstrom
John O'Brien
Prince Richard Kaminski wrote in message
<36F51BC7...@lineone.net>...
>But I don't think it's anything worth getting angry about. It's just
the
>way it is. It will change, if it changes at all, only very slowly over
>many years. In the end it's for the individual to decide whether to
put
>up with it or to find another environment in which he or she feels
more
>comfortable.
I just saw a movie on HBO about women in sports, especially
marathons and other intense athletic pursuits. It was so inspiring
how some women FOUGHT against the thought processes of
the powers that be in sports around the world and especially in
the US before the 1970's.
But fought they did and they proved they could do it. They had
male comrades who helped them and believed in them and
they did it. The same thing can happen in societies like US and
Japan. US still has lots of problems but we have the framework
to attack the problems. I suspect Japan is on the brink of having
to deal with things the US dealt with over the past 50 years.
I have a 1/2 brother who is Japanese/American who I just found
out about a few months ago and I can only imagine the prejudice
he has had to live with for almost 40 years. Being 1/2 American
and not having a father and living in Japan. Sad. John
Jeff Schrepfer
claims to have gone through an experience similar to Joe Shmoe. On a
different level though, I don't think that it is a fair appraisal of
what is really going on here.
You have to see a scenario like this for what it is. You have a white
male who has the tables turned on him and decides that he doesn't like
it for what it is. Joe Shmoe lives in a country of many immigrants and
he tries to involve himself with the diversity around him. Often this
diversity exists only on the surface. He has tasted the food of other
cultures and learns various customs, etc. However, he is in an
environment where everyone around him, whatever their color or culture,
are striving to fit into a white dominated, white created version of
what society should be while preserving the superficialities of their
own culture. Japanese Americans, for example, are nothing like Japanese.
They may take off their shoes at home, they may eat Japanese food at
home, they He doesn't truly know what it is like to be one of those
immigrants living in (I assume) the U.S. He doesn't know what it is like
to have doors closed in his face because of others' perception of who he
is. He doesn't know what it's like to be constantly stopped by the
police because of his race, etc. He doesn't realize that on one level
the U.S. share the color of many cultures but that on a much deeper
level, everyone who wants to be anyone is expected to conform to the
white standard that he has grown up with. His "cultural experiences" at
this point are still quite shallow.
Then Joe Shmoe decides to go and experience Japan, ostensibly to deepen
his cultural understanding. Probably he expects more of the cultural
experiences that he has experienced in his home country just more
frequently and more intensely. However, he quickly discovers that, God
forbid, the people around him actually have different values, a
different society, a different history, a different way of doing things.
These people value the group more than the individual, they don't value
people who make waves unnecessarily or who go around trying to tell
everyone else that their way of doing things is the right way. They
value conformity, the pay a little bit by sacrificing individuality but
reap what they consider to be the greater reward of a safe, orderly,
predictable society in which they can be safe in both a physical and an
emotional sense. Joe studies the language, he tries the food, he goes to
a few museums and festivals, etc. but he never tries to understand the
way the people around him are thinking, he doesn't try to get in their
head and view their culture objectively. He constantly judges their
culture by the values that have been instilled in him by his own. He
continues to beat his head against the cultural wall and eventually
tires of this. He goes back home and complains about how strange
Japanese culture is and becomes a critic of Japan and one whose opinions
should be values because they are based on direct experiences.
Joe could have learned some valuable lessons from his experience. First
of all, he could learn a lot about what is really going on in his own
country. He could learn that the Japanese, like the white establishment
in his own country, find it difficult to accept those who they view as
being different. Even more importantly he could learn how frustrating it
is to have to go through this kind of experience; how frustrating to
have landlords tell you no, how frustrating it is not to be able to join
certain clubs without people constantly fixating on your ethnic
background; how frustrating it is to have that nagging empty seat next
to you on the train with 15 or 20 people standing around you afraid to
take the plunge, etc.
Instead of taking these valuable lessons back home with him he has taken
anger. After all, any society who can't accept him or the values that he
grew up with must be wrong. There is no compromise. What a useless
society. What an incompassionate people. Hate. Hate. Hate.
I first fell in love with the surface of Japanese culture many years
ago. However, I quickly developed a profound respect for the deeper side
of Japanese culture and the values that make up its society. Of course,
there are many values that I hold which are quite different and I can
see good in bad in both the white establishment that I come from and the
very different society that has developed across the pacific but I
learned to respect Japanese values and play by their rules. I can say
that I have many, many Japanese friends who, while they never completely
forget my gaijin-ness because of the obvious physical differences, have
accepted me wholeheartedly into their cliques, their groups, their
society. I have had many Japanese tell me that, other than the blue eyes
and kimpatsu hair, they couldn't even tell I was a gaijin. This quality
is what finally convinced my wife's mother to accept me despite her
initial reluctance to accept her daughter and me together. Of course
this doesn't mean that I lost my original identity but that I had simply
gained a true understanding of another culture and its values. I always
considered this kind of comment the best compliment that a Japanese
could ever pay me because it means that I had truly broken through. I
saw many Joe Shmoes while I was in Japan and I truly felt sorry for
them; sorry that they couldn't open their minds wide enough to achieve
their original goal of truly becoming multicultural.
Jeff Schrepfer
"Mike W." wrote:
>
> Although most foreigners posting in these quarters seem to be fond of Japan
> it seems that Japan also turns some people into vitriolic critics. You can use
> the simpleton Tanaka method to explain this ('They are all white, racist
> Americans') or the only marginally less imbecilic 'They don't understand/try
> to adapt to a different culture' response. But looking at the experiences of a
> few acquaintances who ended up hating Japan I think another cause is more
> common. Let's take the example of Joe Shmoe (not his real name- his real
> name is Dave Shmoe).
>
> Joe Shmoe lives in a country in which there are many immigrants. Joe Shmoe
> likes this- he thinks that the variety of races and cultures in his country
> give it vitality and color, more than exists in what he considers to be bland,
> conservative white society. Joe has friends of different ethnic backgrounds
> and appreciates the foods, customs and music.He even tries to get involved in
> comunity festivals etc., he may even belong to groups aiding people from
> these countries.
>
> Joe wants to travel awhile- get away from white, boring, middle-class
> suburbansville. He wants to become a Global citizen. He wants to be a GOOD
> global citizen and learn about others and invest himself in their societies.
> He hers that Japan is 'different' and enticing yet is a good place to live-
> low crime, healthy, high tec. He goes there planning to live and work there
> for a few years.
>
> Joe studies Japanese and takes time to learn the customs in order to be a
> good guest. He tries to get involved in the community- to contribute. He
> finds that his way is blocked. That he is an outsider, treated suspiciously
> despite his good intentions. He tries to get 'into the real Japan' to go
> beyond the superficial touristic layer. But he finds his way blocked at every
> turn. He finds it difficult to make friends. Most of his associations are on
> the level of 'my Gaijin friend'. He tries to help things by giving opinions
> but is told that 'you are not Japanese; you don't understand.'
>
> Joe becomes bitter. Joe believes in intergration, mutual undersanding and
> friendship. He hates racial segregation. But the Japanese aren't playing by
> these rules. The Japanese are not PC. They hesitate at intergration. They
> seem to resent or fear mixing in any deeper sense. This runs counter to Joe's
> liberal, progressive ethics. He feels that the Japanese have violated his
> internationalist sensibilities. Ironically, this was how he had thought about
> the conservative white homeland he left. He thus now hates Japan even
> moreso for disilluisioning him.
>
> Note that Joe is not the redneck, conservative, cultural ignoramus that Japan
> bashers are so often made out to be. How representative is this scenario? Is
> Joe justified in his anger or is he just a cross-cultural neophyte who should
> have known better?
>
> Mike Wadi ('fikeru')
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
--
=[]= You have received a message from:
||
|| ________________
__||__ | |
/ || \ | Jeff Schrepfer |
\ / |________________|
/ () \
/ __ \
\ / Email: Je...@Schrepfer.com
\______/ Homepage: http://www.Schrepfer.com
Mike W.
it (Jeff seems to see Joe as culturally naive). However, judging from the Joe
Shmoes of my experience I beg to differ on a few key points.
One is that Jeff seems to think Joe Shmoe's attempts at acculturation must be
shallow. I've seen those cases too, but in many Joe Shmoe cases in Japan, Joe
HAS worked very hard to get inside the 'head' of Japanese culture but this is
precisely that which is so disillusioning. The more Joe tries to do the
'right' thing, the more he is told by Japanese that it is not the right
thing. The more Joe pushes to get inside, the stronger the rejections become.
As for Jeff's bits about Joe holding onto values of his own culture
(paraphrase), I think that it is more the case with Joe Shmoe that he has
hoped that Japan (or wherever) would NOT echo those exclusionary
characteristics that he finds in middle-class white society. Perhaps he is
naive in this respect but as Japan proves to have some of the very same
values (Jeff, note this bit!) that he despises in middle-class Whitedom his
PERSONAL sense of values is violated (I believe most criticism of Japan is of
the 'we are more PC' variety) and thus begins to criticize Japan as he did
with the middle-class suburban culture of his old home. Except it becomes
even more virulent because, dammit, he tried his best and his hopes were
dashed.
I think good advice for Joe would be NOT to try to get in the head of Japan
and get involved in that unwinnable Sysyphisian struggle in which the harder
you push,
you more resistance you meet. People trying too hard at anything look
awkward and obvious. People start to second guess their intentions. I quit
trying hard to 'live Japanese' after about a year here. But by going about my
daily business not expecting to be a Japanese but not caring much about it I
find that I'm more unobtrusive and thus accepted by the rank and file of
Japanese. It's like a golf swing, the more you try to power the ball the more
your hands and arms get out of whack and you end up hitting the ball much
shorter. Establish a good swingplane and then let centripical force and
gravity do the work for you.
Mike Wadi ('fikeru')
In article <36F5C0D1...@schrepfer.com>,
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Mike W.
"Ryan Ginstrom" <ry...@infinet.com> wrote:
>
> Mike W. wrote in message <7d2u8b$e9v$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> >it seems that Japan also turns some people into vitriolic critics. You can
> use
> >the simpleton Tanaka method to explain this ('They are all white, racist
> >Americans') or the only marginally less imbecilic 'They don't
> understand/try
> >to adapt to a different culture' response. But looking at the experiences
> of a
> >few acquaintances who ended up hating Japan I think another cause is more
> >common. Let's take the example of Joe Shmoe (not his real name- his real
> >name is Dave Shmoe).
> >
>
> Sounds like a good example of your (ii): "They don't understand/try to adapt
> to a different culture"
>
> It reminds me of what a friend told me once: "I can get along with
> anybody -- and I just don't understand people who can't."
>
Sorry but could you please elaborate as to why? My Joe Shmoe is making a real
effort to adapt and fit in, but the more he tries to do this 'right' thing
the more he is rejected- hence the vitriol. I think the way I described Joe
Shmoe is clearly outside of the bounds of the knee-jerk 'doesn't try to
understand the other culture' scenario. In fact, in Joe's case, he finds out
that the reality of this new culture is unfortunately (for him) much like the
one he hated at home. THAT'S the irony of it.
Mike Wadi ('fikeru')
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Ryan Ginstrom
Mike W. wrote in message <7d5aoj$c01$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>> Sounds like a good example of your (ii): "They don't understand/try to
adapt
>> to a different culture"
>>
>> It reminds me of what a friend told me once: "I can get along with
>> anybody -- and I just don't understand people who can't."
>>
>
>Sorry but could you please elaborate as to why?
Sure. Joe wants to understand the Japanese, but on his terms. Joe
accepts anyone, and he just can't get along with people who don't. Do you
see the irony?
You repeatedly use words like "push" and "get inside." Well, what if
most Japanese don't want to be pushed or penetrated? What if all Joe can
ever be is a minor satellite orbiting the Japanese planet? That's probably
not enough for Joe, because he has to be in the center, where his
"suggestions" will be given the weight they deserve.
Joe is probably sincere in his efforts, but he's got it all wrong and
can't, or won't, figure out why.
Regards,
Ryan Ginstrom
Ryan Ginstrom
Mike W. wrote in message <7d6s1m$oi5$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> Canada, one of my two nationalities, is quite open in this regard whereas
my
>second, Tunisia, is much less so. This is why I can't harp too much on
Japan
>for being 'closed' as it is a trait found in most traditional societies in
>the world- the fact that any outsider is simply and clearly not 'one of us'
>is indelibly etched upon thousands of years of ethnic history and identity.
Yes, I've often wondered why people don't mind when so-called "developing
nations" are openly exclusionary, but get all worked up over the same
Japanese tendency.
Regards,
Ryan Ginstrom
Chris Eastwood
In article <7d2u8b$e9v$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, Mike W. <fik...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>Although most foreigners posting in these quarters seem to be fond of Japan
>Joe Shmoe lives in a country in which there are many immigrants. Joe Shmoe
Sounds to me like Joe is actually a bit of a superiorist. Sounds like Joe has
been helping other people who are forighners, and that he is just a little
bored with his life. So he is seeking some attention by offering others
something that they are looking for. (like selling water on a hot day)
Then Joe goes to another country and expects the same rules to apply to him
there. That some how he has something to offer the other country, and that
they should be interested. (like selling very delicious icecream at the ski
lift)
So when noone wants to take his advice, he gets the dirts, and thinks back to
all those other forighners back home, they were smarter, they listened to him,
not like these forighners here in Japan.
I wonder if Joe would take so kindly to those forighners back home, that
welcomed his advice and participation, going up to him (without some premise
like a cultural exchange day) and wanting to get involved in his personal
affairs? Possibly he would be tolerant, and give them time to say what they
want to say, nod and say thanks for the advice, and go back to dealing with
his family the same way. Maybe if pressed he'd say somethin like "thanks for
your advice, but maybe that is what you do in $%^$&$$#land but we do it like
this in America."
maybe
See Ya
(when bandwidth gets better ;-)
Chris Eastwood
Photographer, Programmer email ua.ude.ug.cti@doowtsae.c
Motorcyclist and dingbat
please remove undies for reply
************************************************************************
Ohhh ... you work all day, slave over a hot stove all night
yet you *still* have time for sadomasochism ... how do you do it?
A little man hurts me.
<ding>
Oh Mister Mean ... Oh Mister Mean
15 Minutes with him and you'll be blue and green
Studded belts and leather whips
Bondage trousers on his hips
Wack and punish as you dust with Mister Mean
Ohhhh he whips me around the house in minutes ... lets get cracking ...
Mike W.
"Ryan Ginstrom" <ry...@infinet.com> wrote:
>
> Mike W. wrote in message <7d5aoj$c01$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> >In article <%E9J2.2361$f2.3353@news2>,
> > "Ryan Ginstrom" <ry...@infinet.com> wrote:
>
> >> Sounds like a good example of your (ii): "They don't understand/try to
> adapt
> >> to a different culture"
> >>
> >> It reminds me of what a friend told me once: "I can get along with
> >> anybody -- and I just don't understand people who can't."
> >>
> >
> >Sorry but could you please elaborate as to why?
>
> Sure. Joe wants to understand the Japanese, but on his terms. Joe
> accepts anyone, and he just can't get along with people who don't. Do you
> see the irony?
> You repeatedly use words like "push" and "get inside." Well, what if
> most Japanese don't want to be pushed or penetrated? What if all Joe can
> ever be is a minor satellite orbiting the Japanese planet? That's probably
> not enough for Joe, because he has to be in the center, where his
> "suggestions" will be given the weight they deserve.
> Joe is probably sincere in his efforts, but he's got it all wrong and
> can't, or won't, figure out why.
>
Yup- I see the irony. A lot of Joe Shmoes go to foreign countries not only
with the knowledge that things will be different but with the hope that they
will be different. They appear to offer to Joe Shmoe an 'alternative'
society. The fact that these places may not want to serve as an alternative
society for the Joe Shmoes of the world is not clear to him- because he
believes that these societies will not hold the exclusionary traits that he
despises in his own. To an extent then, Joe's disillusions are brought about
by a naive belief that his White, middle-class Western society is more
exclusionary and resistant than any other. It isn't true. It is interesting
as to how this more 'liberal' and apparently sympathetic approach to
different cultures can in fact lead to hatred of them.
Canada, one of my two nationalities, is quite open in this regard whereas my
second, Tunisia, is much less so. This is why I can't harp too much on Japan
for being 'closed' as it is a trait found in most traditional societies in
the world- the fact that any outsider is simply and clearly not 'one of us'
is indelibly etched upon thousands of years of ethnic history and identity.
It also causes me not to harp so much upon the alleged exclusionary practices
of so-called white Western countries because the 'racist' attitudes often
ascribed to them are often much worse, much more racially deterministic and
exclusionary, elsewhere.Those who think that traditional societies are
paragons of cross-cultural tolerance and virtue are in for a big shock.
Scott Reynolds
> Yes, I've often wondered why people don't mind when so-called "developing
> nations" are openly exclusionary, but get all worked up over the same
> Japanese tendency.
Maybe because Japan is not a developing nation?
_______________________________________________________________
Scott Reynolds s...@gol.com
Jeff Schrepfer
Japan is going to help. The most you can do is learn from your
experiences and take away what you can. As a white American male I think
that my experiences of being deliberately discriminated against in Japan
were some of the most valuable character building experiences in my life
(despite the intense anger and frustration that I felt at the time.) No
matter how hard you try you can't change an entire nation of people. All
you can do is make whatever impact you can on the individuals you meet
one person at a time, beginning with yourself.
I also agree that Joe shouldn't try so hard to get into the Japanese
mind. It simply can't be done completely. I think that I achieved some
incredible inroads while I was there but I always realized that I would
never be completely successful. For that matter I don't know why anyone
would ever want to be COMPLETELY successful as it would necessarily
entail losing your own identity. In fact, there are many people/groups
in the U.S. with whom I can't identify with completely despite being,
ostensibly, from the same culture.
The longer I was in Japan the more I found myself returning to my
Americanness and becoming comfortable with who I was: a foreigner living
in Japan. That meant being comfortable with others being reluctant at
times to accept you. I learned that, more often than not, racist
tendencies are born of fear more so than they are of anger. Of course
racism in its most egregious form is almost always a product of anger
and should not be tolerated at any cost but I think that this variety
is, thankfully, rare. Most racial tendencies are a product of ignorance
and when you realize this you become much more forgiving. Helping to
overcome that ignorance, one person at a time, becomes a laudable goal.
Criticizing is just counter-productive.
My wife's mother is a great example of this. At first she didn't like
the idea of her daughter dating me at all. She lost her own father in
the second world war after all. However, I was able to overcome her fear
through my own understanding of Japanese culture and my ability to deal
with her on her terms. Once I broke through I was amazed at how deeply
she seemed to accept me. She is a fairly simple country woman (in a
non-derogatory way) and, unlike so many people in Tokyo, she didn't have
any preconceived notions of how to treat non-Japanese. Once she was able
to overcame her fear, she began treating me the only way she knew how. I
have developed many deep and lasting friendships in Japan in much the
same way.
Jeff
--
Mike W.
superiority complex but simply wants and asks for reciprocity. I don't see
Joe as a know-it-all throwing out advice to the natives everywhere, rather
he's just wishing to participate and be involved in a meaningful way. After
all, if Joe delibertately did the 'wrong' thing and marginalized himself in
Japan and did nothing to try to adapt to this society, he would also be
accused of a superiority complex, cultural insensitivity etc.
By these standards, it seems that whatever Joe does he can't win.
It is true however that some Joe Shmoes go abroad so that they can be a big
foreign fish in a small local pool and thus justify their own self-importance
by feigning to 'help' the locals (Christ complex?). Usually the locals can
sniff such false motives out. I'm not sure that the Joe Shmoes I've met fall
into that category however.
Ryan Ginstrom
Scott Reynolds wrote in message <36F731A1...@gol.com>...
>Ryan Ginstrom wrote:
>
>> Yes, I've often wondered why people don't mind when so-called "developing
>> nations" are openly exclusionary, but get all worked up over the same
>> Japanese tendency.
>
>Maybe because Japan is not a developing nation?
Yes, that's my first guess -- that these people think that developing must
mean Westernizing (because the West is the only valid model for economic
success), and Japan must therefore have embraced Western ideals. The
Japanese tendency to pay lip service to Western ideals probably lulls many
of us into thinking that this is true.
Regards,
Ryan Ginstrom
neko maru
>Yes, that's my first guess -- that these people think that developing must
mean Westernizing (because the West is the only valid model for economic
success), and Japan must therefore have embraced Western ideals. The
Japanese tendency to pay lip service to Western ideals probably lulls many
of us into thinking that this is true.
people simply because they expect so?
-**** Posted from remarQ, Discussions Start Here(tm) ****-
http://www.remarq.com/ - Host to the the World's Discussions & Usenet
Kenji Adzuma
> [...]
>
> Note that Joe is not the redneck, conservative, cultural ignoramus that Japan
> bashers are so often made out to be. How representative is this scenario? Is
> Joe justified in his anger or is he just a cross-cultural neophyte who should
> have known better?
I'd say every expat (including Japanese living abroad) has an element of
Joe. The fundamental paradox here is that, while most expats want to
integrate into the society they live, they also want (deep in their minds)
to be appreciated as a "foreinger", i.e., an individual who possesses
something "different" or valuable to trade with the "natives." Simplest
example of this is "I teach you Japanese, you teach me English"
mentality. If the other party didn't want to learn Japanese (most don't),
you'd feel bitter, so to speak.
IMO, Joe should not have tried to force himself to integrate. Such desire
to integrate, ironically, is often based on the assumption that he differs
from the natives. He should deal with that assumption first.
--
Kenji Adzuma
Michael Cash
wrote:
>
>Mike W. wrote in message <7d2u8b$e9v$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>>Although most foreigners posting in these quarters seem to be fond of Japan
>>it seems that Japan also turns some people into vitriolic critics. You can
>use
>>the simpleton Tanaka method to explain this ('They are all white, racist
>>Americans') or the only marginally less imbecilic 'They don't
>understand/try
>>to adapt to a different culture' response. But looking at the experiences
>of a
>>few acquaintances who ended up hating Japan I think another cause is more
>>common. Let's take the example of Joe Shmoe (not his real name- his real
>>name is Dave Shmoe).
>>
>>Joe Shmoe [...]
>
>Sounds like a good example of your (ii): "They don't understand/try to adapt
>to a different culture"
>
>It reminds me of what a friend told me once: "I can get along with
>anybody -- and I just don't understand people who can't."
It's like what I tell people who ask why I like truck driving. I say
it's because I can get along with anybody in the world for 15 minutes
(which is about all I ever have to be around anyone in this job).
Anything more and one of us is going to wear on the other's nerves
something fierce.
>
>Regards,
>
>Ryan Ginstrom
>
Michael Cash
>In article <%E9J2.2361$f2.3353@news2>,
> "Ryan Ginstrom" <ry...@infinet.com> wrote:
>>
>> Mike W. wrote in message <7d2u8b$e9v$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>> >Although most foreigners posting in these quarters seem to be fond of Japan
>> >it seems that Japan also turns some people into vitriolic critics. You can
>> use
>> >the simpleton Tanaka method to explain this ('They are all white, racist
>> >Americans') or the only marginally less imbecilic 'They don't
>> understand/try
>> >to adapt to a different culture' response. But looking at the experiences
>> of a
>> >few acquaintances who ended up hating Japan I think another cause is more
>> >common. Let's take the example of Joe Shmoe (not his real name- his real
>> >name is Dave Shmoe).
>> >
>> >Joe Shmoe [...]
>>
>> Sounds like a good example of your (ii): "They don't understand/try to adapt
>> to a different culture"
>>
>> It reminds me of what a friend told me once: "I can get along with
>> anybody -- and I just don't understand people who can't."
>>
>
>Sorry but could you please elaborate as to why? My Joe Shmoe is making a real
>effort to adapt and fit in, but the more he tries to do this 'right' thing
>the more he is rejected- hence the vitriol. I think the way I described Joe
>Shmoe is clearly outside of the bounds of the knee-jerk 'doesn't try to
>understand the other culture' scenario. In fact, in Joe's case, he finds out
>that the reality of this new culture is unfortunately (for him) much like the
>one he hated at home. THAT'S the irony of it.
>
It sometimes is a matter of trying too hard. A skilfull blending in
would be something that would mostly go unnoticed. The problem comes
with foreigners who try to "out-Japanese the Japanese". I've met a
bunch of them. They are typically why you will find that many
long-time foreign residents of Japan have very little to with the new
arrivals. I have little use for what I call "Heisei Gaijin" myself,
being a "Showa Gaijin" who remembers when 500 yen was paper, JR was
JNR, the only coke you could get were 250ml cans or 1 liter glass
bottles, the yen was 250 to the dollar, and green telephones were
unheard of.
I found that you can fit in quite well, without giving up anything of
yourself. Fitting in is more than just taking your shoes off indoors,
bowing, and slurping your noodles.
When I went to work as a driver in a Japanese trucking company it took
me a while to get settled in. One day a driver asked me if I was
getting used to them/the job. I told him that it was more a matter of
them getting used to me. I am the one who stood out by virtue of my
race and size, you see. There is only so much I can do. Over time they
got used to me and didn't give an inordinate amount of thought to the
fact that I am a foreigner. Our relationship centered on shared
experiences in the workplace and the community.
If I had insisted on repeatedly demonstrating how much I was trying to
fit in, it would only have served the self-defeating purpose of
calling to everyone's attention again the fact that I was different.
And no matter that they got used to me and accepted me as a peer. I
only had to walk down the street and see someone who didn't know me to
be a complete outsider again.
Michael Cash
<dobunezu...@lineone.net> wrote:
>
>
>"Mike W." wrote:
>>
>> Although most foreigners posting in these quarters seem to be fond of Japan
>> it seems that Japan also turns some people into vitriolic critics. You can use
>> the simpleton Tanaka method to explain this ('They are all white, racist
>> Americans') or the only marginally less imbecilic 'They don't understand/try
>> to adapt to a different culture' response. But looking at the experiences of a
>> few acquaintances who ended up hating Japan I think another cause is more
>> common. Let's take the example of Joe Shmoe (not his real name- his real
>> name is Dave Shmoe).
>>
>> Joe Shmoe lives in a country in which there are many immigrants. Joe Shmoe
>> likes this- he thinks that the variety of races and cultures in his country
>> give it vitality and color, more than exists in what he considers to be bland,
>> conservative white society. Joe has friends of different ethnic backgrounds
>> and appreciates the foods, customs and music.He even tries to get involved in
>> comunity festivals etc., he may even belong to groups aiding people from
>> these countries.
>>
>> Joe wants to travel awhile- get away from white, boring, middle-class
>> suburbansville. He wants to become a Global citizen. He wants to be a GOOD
>> global citizen and learn about others and invest himself in their societies.
>> He hers that Japan is 'different' and enticing yet is a good place to live-
>> low crime, healthy, high tec. He goes there planning to live and work there
>> for a few years.
>>
>> Joe studies Japanese and takes time to learn the customs in order to be a
>> good guest. @He tries to get involved in the community- to contribute. He
>> finds that his way is blocked. That he is an outsider, treated suspiciously
>> despite his good intentions. He tries to get 'into the real Japan' to go
>> beyond the superficial touristic layer. But he finds his way blocked at every
>> turn. He finds it difficult to make friends. Most of his associations are on
>> the level of 'my Gaijin friend'. He tries to help things by giving opinions
>> but is told that 'you are not Japanese; you don't understand.'
>>
>> Joe becomes bitter. Joe believes in intergration, mutual undersanding and
>> friendship. He hates racial segregation. But the Japanese aren't playing by
>> these rules. The Japanese are not PC. They hesitate at intergration. They
>> seem to resent or fear mixing in any deeper sense. This runs counter to Joe's
>> liberal, progressive ethics. He feels that the Japanese have violated his
>> internationalist sensibilities. Ironically, this was how he had thought about
>> the conservative white homeland he left. He thus now hates Japan even
>> moreso for disilluisioning him.
>>
>> Note that Joe is not the redneck, conservative, cultural ignoramus that Japan
>> bashers are so often made out to be. How representative is this scenario? Is
>> Joe justified in his anger or is he just a cross-cultural neophyte who should
>> have known better?
>
>I agree 100 per cent with your insightful appraisal of the situation.
>But I don't think it's anything worth getting angry about. It's just the
>way it is. It will change, if it changes at all, only very slowly over
>many years. In the end it's for the individual to decide whether to put
>up with it or to find another environment in which he or she feels more
>comfortable.
Once again I am in the position of agreeing with His Highness,
especially about the pace of change.
My wife used to get exasperated because I would confront children and
teens who called out to me "Hello Hello!", saying that it is
impossible for me to change Japan. My response is that I know I can't
change all the Japanese, but I'll change them one at a time as I get
to them.
I don't really want to change the place, but being treated by gaggles
of rank strangers as a performing bear in a circus grates on me. I do
tend to take action in those cases.
Michael Cash
Eastwood) wrote:
>HiYA
>
>In article <7d2u8b$e9v$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, Mike W. <fik...@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>>Although most foreigners posting in these quarters seem to be fond of Japan
>
>>Joe Shmoe lives in a country in which there are many immigrants. Joe Shmoe
>
>Sounds to me like Joe is actually a bit of a superiorist. Sounds like Joe has
>been helping other people who are forighners, and that he is just a little
>bored with his life. So he is seeking some attention by offering others
>something that they are looking for. (like selling water on a hot day)
>
>Then Joe goes to another country and expects the same rules to apply to him
>there. That some how he has something to offer the other country, and that
>they should be interested. (like selling very delicious icecream at the ski
>lift)
>
>So when noone wants to take his advice, he gets the dirts, and thinks back to
>all those other forighners back home, they were smarter, they listened to him,
>not like these forighners here in Japan.
>
>I wonder if Joe would take so kindly to those forighners back home, that
>welcomed his advice and participation, going up to him (without some premise
>like a cultural exchange day) and wanting to get involved in his personal
>affairs?
Right! Like the people who come up and want to "practice their
English". I hate that. If you have something to say to me, say it in
English or Japanese either one, I don't care. But don't come up to me
and ask me to halt what I'm doing when the only thing you needed was a
sounding board. Hell, that's not even treating me as a person, in a
way. You didn't need me in particular, any gaijin would have done.
I have seen other gaijin doing the same thing to Japanese, by the way,
in an interesting turn of events. Saw one at Kinokuniya in Tokyo
asking an obviously harrowed and overworked clerk if they had a
particular book (in katakoto Japanese). The clerk said they didn't
have it, but that perhaps Maruzen had it. Our hero asked how to get to
Maruzen, further detaining the clerk, who clearly showed signs of
needing to get about his business. I started to tell him how to get to
Maruzen, out of pity for the clerk. I was stunned when the gaijin
turned to me and with a voice full of scorn said "I *know* where it
is!!!!"
Go figure.
> Possibly he would be tolerant, and give them time to say what they
>want to say, nod and say thanks for the advice, and go back to dealing with
>his family the same way. Maybe if pressed he'd say somethin like "thanks for
>your advice, but maybe that is what you do in $%^$&$$#land but we do it like
>this in America."
>
>
Michael Cash
>In article <7d6ipa$pkn$1...@kraken.itc.gu.edu.au>,
> c.undies...@gu.edu.au (Chris Eastwood) wrote:
>> HiYA
>>
>> In article <7d2u8b$e9v$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, Mike W. <fik...@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >Although most foreigners posting in these quarters seem to be fond of Japan
>>
>> >Joe Shmoe lives in a country in which there are many immigrants. Joe Shmoe
>>
>> Sounds to me like Joe is actually a bit of a superiorist. Sounds like Joe has
>> been helping other people who are forighners, and that he is just a little
>> bored with his life. So he is seeking some attention by offering others
>> something that they are looking for. (like selling water on a hot day)
>>
>> Then Joe goes to another country and expects the same rules to apply to him
>> there. That some how he has something to offer the other country, and that
>> they should be interested. (like selling very delicious icecream at the ski
>> lift)
>>
>> So when noone wants to take his advice, he gets the dirts, and thinks back to
>> all those other forighners back home, they were smarter, they listened to him,
>> not like these forighners here in Japan.
>>
>> I wonder if Joe would take so kindly to those forighners back home, that
>> welcomed his advice and participation, going up to him (without some premise
>> like a cultural exchange day) and wanting to get involved in his personal
>> affairs? Possibly he would be tolerant, and give them time to say what they
>> want to say, nod and say thanks for the advice, and go back to dealing with
>> his family the same way. Maybe if pressed he'd say somethin like "thanks for
>> your advice, but maybe that is what you do in $%^$&$$#land but we do it like
>> this in America."
>>
>Giving Joe the benefit of the doubt here, I'd say that Joe does not have a
>superiority complex but simply wants and asks for reciprocity.
Joe seems to be sort of a one-trick pony. Focusing on adapting to
Japan is fine, but can quickly wear out as a topic of conversation or
theme of interaction. "Oh no, here's comes Tedious Joe! He's going to
show us once again how like us he is." In an effort to make them
forget his foreignness, he reminds them of their Japaneseness, which
puts them in mind of his foreignness. You've got to have some reason
for interacting which transcends all of that, which becomes the focus
and lets everyone concentrate on something rather than their
differences.
I found that the most "international" people in Japan were the ones
who had zero interest in English, didn't really care to travel abroad,
or any of the other things that the Japanese who flock to Eikaiwa
generally have in common. They were people I met in my work or in my
sports activities (kendo, naginata, jujitsu, and aikido). "But aren't
those Japanese Culture things?" You bet. But the focus of our
interaction was the activity and our shared interest in it. We had to
interact as practice partners, not as a Japanese and a Gaijin having a
cultural exchange.
> I don't see
>Joe as a know-it-all throwing out advice to the natives everywhere, rather
>he's just wishing to participate and be involved in a meaningful way. After
>all, if Joe delibertately did the 'wrong' thing and marginalized himself in
>Japan and did nothing to try to adapt to this society, he would also be
>accused of a superiority complex, cultural insensitivity etc.
>
>By these standards, it seems that whatever Joe does he can't win.
Hey Joe, I was an assistant instructor at my ju-jitsu classes. I was
the only gaijin, student or instructor. Was I accepted? Hey Joe, after
learning the ropes at the first trucking company I drove for in Japan,
I trained a couple of new drivers and when they asked me to take over
a section of the warehouse, I trained my assistant there too. All
Japanese. Again, I was the only gaijin in the whole damned company.
They hired me despite their strong misgivings. Was I accepted?
The superiority complex you guys refer to is what I like to call the
"Conquistador Mentality". I saw embarrassing amounts of it among my
fellow sailors during my Navy days, back during Reagan's first term.
One reason Joe can't win is because he is the only one to whom it is a
game. Everyone knows that in the end, Joe will go back. Why invest the
time and effort into absorbing him into their lives when he's not
going to be there long-term? Put it this way.....they're all swimming
together, but Joe is using a scuba tank and is visiting. Everyone else
is a fish, has gills, and is there for the long haul. They were born
in that water, live their lives in that water, spawn in that water,
and will eventually die in that water. (Come to think of it, Japanese
overseas do sometimes put one in mind of a fish out of water...). Joe
on the other hand, will be leaving when his air supply runs out. Ok,
I admit, as an allegory it's no Pilgrim's Progress, but you all get
the general idea.
The key, Mike, is not to strive to be a fish like all the other fish,
but to learn to be an amphibian. Comfortable in either environment,
but not totally accepted as a native member of either. And able to
accept that fact yourself, and deal with it.
>
>It is true however that some Joe Shmoes go abroad so that they can be a big
>foreign fish in a small local pool and thus justify their own self-importance
>by feigning to 'help' the locals (Christ complex?). Usually the locals can
>sniff such false motives out. I'm not sure that the Joe Shmoes I've met fall
>into that category however.
>
Bryan Parker
> On Sun, 21 Mar 1999 16:18:15 +0000, Prince Richard Kaminski
> impossible for me to change Japan. My response is that I know I can't
> change all the Japanese, but I'll change them one at a time as I get
> to them.
> I don't really want to change the place, but being treated by gaggles
> of rank strangers as a performing bear in a circus grates on me. I do
> tend to take action in those cases.
I often have the same feeling. I get tired of answering the same damn
questions over and over again. I sometimes go out to the yakitori shop by
myself. I take a magazine or a book along to show the whole world that I
don't want to talk. It may sound stupid to some of you but I'm kind of
scared that I might have to CHOKE SLAM the next person that asks me
"Natto tabereru?"
I have never confronted anyone about this though. I always thought that
they were just trying to be nice. How would they know how tired I am of
answering those kind of questions?
--
Bryan
gary
Michael Cash wrote:
>
> Joe seems to be sort of a one-trick pony. Focusing on adapting to
> Japan is fine, but can quickly wear out as a topic of conversation or
> theme of interaction. "Oh no, here's comes Tedious Joe! He's going to
> show us once again how like us he is." In an effort to make them
> forget his foreignness, he reminds them of their Japaneseness, which
> puts them in mind of his foreignness. You've got to have some reason
> for interacting which transcends all of that, which becomes the focus
> and lets everyone concentrate on something rather than their
> differences.
Exactly. Like you said up above, Michael, a skillful blending in is
something that should go unnoticed. Learn to stop being so conscious of
yourself and what you are, and the Japanese will do so too. Ever meet
one of those "Americanized" Japanese -- here or there -- who greet you
with a back-slap and punctuate their conversation with studied shoulder
shrugs and head nods? Imitation is the highest form of flattery, but
sometimes it's just mockery.
>
> Hey Joe, I was an assistant instructor at my ju-jitsu classes. I was
> the only gaijin, student or instructor. Was I accepted? Hey Joe,
...where you goin' with that gun in your hand...
(sorry, couldn't resist)
--gary
Tim
>Although most foreigners posting in these quarters seem to be fond of Japan
>it seems that Japan also turns some people into vitriolic critics. You can use
>the simpleton Tanaka method to explain this ('They are all white, racist
>Americans') or the only marginally less imbecilic 'They don't understand/try
>to adapt to a different culture' response. But looking at the experiences of a
>few acquaintances who ended up hating Japan I think another cause is more
>common. Let's take the example of Joe Shmoe (not his real name- his real
>name is Dave Shmoe).
Funny, I thought his real name might have been Mike Wadi :-)
regards, Tim...
shuji matsuda
:I told him that it was more a matter of
:them getting used to me. I am the one who stood out by virtue of my
:race and size, you see. There is only so much I can do. Over time they
:got used to me and didn't give an inordinate amount of thought to the
:fact that I am a foreigner. Our relationship centered on shared
:experiences in the workplace and the community.
Is the sharing done in Japanese?
Because you have succeeded in communicating with your ordinary fellow
men, you must have had good Japanese language skill.
--
shuji matsuda smat...@med.keio.ac.jp
Jourdan M. Bickham
In a word (well two) can we say culture shock...
Just because you've studied the history, culture and language before going
over DOESN'T mean that you will just be able to blend in after a few
months. Cultural shock is a serious thing.. much more than it sounds from
the plain words that describe it. Trying to fully prepare before going
can help, but undoubtly everyone will go through some degree of culture
shock...
Mike W.
rip...@zeta.org.au (Tim) wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:04:00 GMT, Mike W. <fik...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Although most foreigners posting in these quarters seem to be fond of Japan
> >it seems that Japan also turns some people into vitriolic critics. You can use
> >the simpleton Tanaka method to explain this ('They are all white, racist
> >Americans') or the only marginally less imbecilic 'They don't understand/try
> >to adapt to a different culture' response. But looking at the experiences of a
> >few acquaintances who ended up hating Japan I think another cause is more
> >common. Let's take the example of Joe Shmoe (not his real name- his real
> >name is Dave Shmoe).
>
> Funny, I thought his real name might have been Mike Wadi :-)
>
Yeah, yeah- as in 'Dear Abby, I have a friend with a sexual problem..'. Well,
to be honest, I'm quite happy in Japan and, in another response in this
thread, have written a few of the strategies that have helped me adapt in
ways that Joe Shmoe didn't. However, it's not too hard to run into Joe Shmoes
in Japan, as I have.
The reason for mentioning Joe was because Joe is usually a pretty PC, liberal,
well-balanced, well-intentioned guy, not the 'gook-hating redneck' people who
criticise Japan are often painted to be. Joe's motives/reasons for developing
animosity towards Japan are much more common, complex and interesting.
Mike Wadi
Michael Cash
I had adequate skills, I suppose. I used the "sink-or-swim" method. No
one else in the company could speak English. I didn't have enough
money to live on while searching for another job if I failed at that
one. It's amazing what you can accomplish in a "do-or-die" type
situation.
Michael Cash
wrote:
>x-no-archive: yes
>
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>
>
>Michael Cash wrote:
>(snip)
>
>driving philosopher you are :-)
>I like the way you think and write.
Thank you. The good thing about truck driving is that it gives you
lots of time alone to think. Of course, the bad thing about truck
driving is that it gives you lots of time alone to think......
The tone and content of this newsgroup varies widely on a continuum
between "debate club" and "personal pissing contest consisting of
one-liners." I try my best to hang out as near the debate club end as
I can.
>
>
>
>
>
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Mike W.
100...@f1n11.spenet.wfu.edu>,
But culture shock need not lead to Joe Shmoe's type of anger. People respond
to culture shock in many ways- often positively. In Joe's case he actively
seeks something a bit different- he wants to be 'shocked', if you will. The
Joe Shmoes I know are not of the 'abroad for the first time' variety. They
welcome a challenge. They welcome something different from Bumfluff, British
Columbia. And the odd thing is, it is the reminders of things that they
didn't like at home (racial divisions/exclusivity etc.) that lead to their
anger- NOT the differences.
I think Michael Cash's analysis, that one needs a superordinate reason/motive
for living within another culture- not just a 'I wanna get involved with
another culture' mantra- goes a long way to explaining the psychology of
Joe. I also think it provides the best insight as to how something close to
assimilation can occur.
Michael Cash
wrote:
>I agree with much of what you say. I just don't see how criticism of
>Japan is going to help. The most you can do is learn from your
>experiences and take away what you can. As a white American male I think
>that my experiences of being deliberately discriminated against in Japan
>were some of the most valuable character building experiences in my life
>(despite the intense anger and frustration that I felt at the time.) No
>matter how hard you try you can't change an entire nation of people. All
>you can do is make whatever impact you can on the individuals you meet
>one person at a time, beginning with yourself.
To paraphrase Mark Twain...."Take from an experience only the lessons
that are really in it. A cat which has sat on a hot stove lid will
never sit on another one, but he will never sit on a cold one either."
I remember very very clearly my first day in Japan. I came aboard a
747 chartered for military use and landed at Yokota air base, and then
took a military bus to the naval base at Yokosuka. As soon as I got a
chance I ventured outside the gate. For a few minutes I was thinking,
"Damn, look at all these foreigners. Everybody is one!" Then in an
instant it hit me like a ton of bricks that it was me who was a
foreigner, not them. I was the one out of place. For the first time in
my life I was a minority.
After transitioning to living in Japan as a civilian and trying to
make my way on the same terms as Japanese (doing jobs which don't take
advantage of my English ability), I had further opportunities to know
how disadvantaged ethnic minorities in America feel. Unlike many
American minorities of my age (post Jim Crow) who may suspect
(sometimes correctly) that they have been racially discriminated
against, I have the experience of being told to my face that I can't
enter certain places, am not allowed to live in certain apartments, am
not wanted by certain companies, etc. based on my race or nationality.
It does build character.
>
>I also agree that Joe shouldn't try so hard to get into the Japanese
>mind. It simply can't be done completely. I think that I achieved some
>incredible inroads while I was there but I always realized that I would
>never be completely successful. For that matter I don't know why anyone
>would ever want to be COMPLETELY successful as it would necessarily
>entail losing your own identity. In fact, there are many people/groups
>in the U.S. with whom I can't identify with completely despite being,
>ostensibly, from the same culture.
Despite what many Japanese themselves seem to believe, there is no
single Japanese mind to be gotten into. For all the similarities
between people, there is still quite a range of differences, thank
**insert diety here**.
>
>The longer I was in Japan the more I found myself returning to my
>Americanness and becoming comfortable with who I was: a foreigner living
>in Japan. That meant being comfortable with others being reluctant at
>times to accept you. I learned that, more often than not, racist
>tendencies are born of fear more so than they are of anger. Of course
>racism in its most egregious form is almost always a product of anger
>and should not be tolerated at any cost but I think that this variety
>is, thankfully, rare. Most racial tendencies are a product of ignorance
>and when you realize this you become much more forgiving. Helping to
>overcome that ignorance, one person at a time, becomes a laudable goal.
>Criticizing is just counter-productive.
And remember, racism/discrimination/prejudice does not always involve
maliciousness or hatred. In it's most basic form it merely means to
treat someone differently than others based upon race/national
origin/religion/etc. I have been discriminated against by people who
will tell you that they like Americans very much, and mean it. They
meant no harm, and I usually took no offense. The different treatment
sometimes was even beneficial in nature. But I still don't like being
treated differently.
>
>My wife's mother is a great example of this. At first she didn't like
>the idea of her daughter dating me at all. She lost her own father in
>the second world war after all. However, I was able to overcome her fear
>through my own understanding of Japanese culture and my ability to deal
>with her on her terms. Once I broke through I was amazed at how deeply
>she seemed to accept me. She is a fairly simple country woman (in a
>non-derogatory way) and, unlike so many people in Tokyo, she didn't have
>any preconceived notions of how to treat non-Japanese. Once she was able
>to overcame her fear, she began treating me the only way she knew how. I
>have developed many deep and lasting friendships in Japan in much the
>same way.
>
>Jeff
My wife's mother didn't seem to mind too much. Her father was a
soldier, but spent much of the war recovering from some tropical
illness. My mother-in-law had a brother in the Imerial Navy whose ship
was lost. My grandmother worked in a munitions plant working to make
bombs to blow them all to hell with. Both our ancestors made efforts
to wipe each other out. I figure that makes things square and we can
move on and leave that behind.
I got tickled one day while talking to my wife about her mother. I
said "You know, sometimes I have trouble understanding your mother."
"Me too"
"No, I meant I have trouble understanding her Japanese."
"Me too"
Mine is also a simple country woman, she's probably taken me more
matter-of-factly than anyone.
Michael Cash
As someone else mentioned, when the shoe is on the other foot, we find
the person to be a bit odd, even annoying. I think some of the most
bizarre Japanese are the ones who rebel against Japanese strictures by
embracing anything and everything American, even to the point of
trying to change their physical appearance or clothing. They put me in
mind of cracking open a peanut only to find nothing inside. All shell,
no nut.
Michael Cash
attitude toward Japan most people go through, with most arriving at
either hatred or disenchantment by the end of 2 or 3 years.
Has anyone else noticed similar patterns to new arrivals' approach to
Japanese language study?
1. Japanese seems fascinating. I want to learn lots and lots. But I
need to get settled in first. I'll start in a month or two.
2. I've already been here 6 months. I'll only be here another 6 months
so there is no point bothering now.
3. I'm going home in 2 months. I wish I had studied more. I'll study
really hard now to make up for it.
On Wed, 24 Mar 1999 12:30:02 GMT, rip...@zeta.org.au (Tim) wrote:
>On Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:04:00 GMT, Mike W. <fik...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Although most foreigners posting in these quarters seem to be fond of Japan
>>it seems that Japan also turns some people into vitriolic critics. You can use
>>the simpleton Tanaka method to explain this ('They are all white, racist
>>Americans') or the only marginally less imbecilic 'They don't understand/try
>>to adapt to a different culture' response. But looking at the experiences of a
>>few acquaintances who ended up hating Japan I think another cause is more
>>common. Let's take the example of Joe Shmoe (not his real name- his real
>>name is Dave Shmoe).
>
>Funny, I thought his real name might have been Mike Wadi :-)
>
>regards, Tim...
Kenji Adzuma
> On Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:32:20 GMT, Jeff Schrepfer <je...@schrepfer.com>
> wrote:
>
> >My wife's mother is a great example of this. At first she didn't like
> >the idea of her daughter dating me at all. She lost her own father in
> >the second world war after all. However, I was able to overcome her fear
> >through my own understanding of Japanese culture and my ability to deal
> >with her on her terms. Once I broke through I was amazed at how deeply
> >she seemed to accept me....
>
> My wife's mother didn't seem to mind too much...
Interesting. Let me throw in my own story (I'm a Japanese male, btw). My
mother didn't (I'm sure still don't) like the fact that I'm married to a
chinese woman (from PRC) at all. When my mother was first informed that I
was getting married with her, my mother said to me things like, it was
understandable for a non-Japanese Asian woman to want to marry a Japanese
man (no, I'm not kidding, that's precisely what she said) so I should
think twice...
I don't consider my mother an ultra-nationalist, though. In fact, I
consider her comment a "typical" response that her generations (60's)
would say, when they found out that their sons/daughters were marrying
someone who came from a country which they sort of look down. China was
being looked down on at that time (1986) when Japan was considered #1 and
China was one of those under-developed countries.
I assume that both Mr Schrepfer and Mr Cash are from western countries.
But what about the case where a Japanese girl fell in love with someone
from, say, South East Asia or Africa or whatever country many Japanese
sort of look down?
--
Kenji Adzuma