Italian Mayors Order Crufixes Put in Classrooms in Revolt against European Court Ruling
Agamemnon
Court Ruling
Polish president and Greek Orthodox Church also hit out at decision against
crucifixes in classrooms
By Hilary White
ROME, November 17, 2009 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Poland's president, Lech
Kaczynski and the leadership of the Greek Orthodox Church have both hit out
at a decision by the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) attempting to ban
the display of crucifixes in Italian public schools. At the same time, a
general revolt against the ruling in municipalities all over Italy has been
started by public officials, who are now ordering the display of crucifixes
in schools, and levelling fines for non-compliance.
The November 3rd ECHR ruling, made in response to a complaint by an Italian
secularist campaigner, said that the display of crucifixes violated the
religious rights of pupils.
During Independence Day celebrations on Wednesday in Warsaw, Poland's
Kaczynski said that "nobody in Poland will accept the message that you can't
hang crosses in schools."
"One shouldn't count on that. Perhaps elsewhere, but never in Poland,"
Kaczynski said.
The reaction from Poland has touched a national nerve in a country where
crucifixes and other religious symbols were banned under the atheistic
communist rule and are now a prominent symbol of national sovereignty.
Lech Walesa, the former president and leader of the Solidarity movement that
eventually freed Poland from its Soviet-controlled communist dictatorship,
challenged the court ruling in a TV interview Thursday, saying, "We must
respect minorities but also protect the rights of the majority."
At the same time, Archbishop Ieronymos, the Archbishop of Athens and primate
of the Autocephalous Orthodox Church of Greece has also spoken out, urging
all Europeans to oppose the ruling, saying the court is ignoring the role of
Christianity in forming Europe's identity. The Greek Church has intervened
in the case in response to a Greek citizen whose son is studying in Italy,
the BBC reports.
The reactions from Greece and Poland reflect the warning made recently by UK
legal expert Neil Addison, who told LifeSiteNews.com that, because of the
intricacies of European Union law, the Italian crucifix ruling is likely
ultimately to affect all 27 member states.
Addison, an author and expert on anti-discrimination law, said that if the
Italian government loses their appeal, the ruling could result in the
enforced exclusion of all public displays of Christian symbols all over
Europe. Addison specifically warned that in countries like Greece and
Cyprus, the common display of icons in public places would be under threat.
In fact, since the November 3rd ruling was announced, a secularist activist
group in Greece, the Greek Helsinki Monitor, has called for a similar ruling
to be applied to that country. The group is urging trade unions to challenge
the presence of religious symbols in Greek schools.
The BBC reports that the Orthodox Church plans to hold an emergency Holy
Synod to hash out a plan to oppose the ruling.
Meanwhile, Italian papers are reporting a general revolt across the country
against the Strasburg ruling. All schools in the League Monza in the
Lombardy region, have been given seven days to ensure that crucifixes are
displayed in every classroom. The mayor of Besana in Brianza, Vittorio
Gatti, signed an order levelling a €150 fine for non-compliance.
Mayor Gatti said, "We will give principals time to adjust, but then the
order will be respected."
In a statement published on the municipality's website, the mayor referred
to the ECHR decision, saying, "We believe that the crucifix is a symbolic
expression in Italy of the religious origin of such important civic values
as tolerance, mutual respect, enhancement of the person, freedom, solidarity
and rejection of any discrimination."
"I believe I have decided the right thing. I have always seen crucifixes in
schools and I believe we should have respect for our traditions and defend
them against those who do not even know what they're talking about," Gatti
said.
The mayor of Priverno in the province of Latina, Lazio, central Italy,
signed an order which provides for the maintenance of crucifixes in
classrooms of primary schools throughout the municipality. Mayor Umberto
Macci, instructed the municipal police to check that crucifixes are in
place, with non-compliance to be fined €500. Citing 1924 and 1927
regulations on school furniture, which provided for the display of
crucifixes in schools, the mayor said they are "an expression of fundamental
civic values and Italian cultural values."
The mayor of Ascoli Piceno in the in the Marche region near the central east
coast, said the crucifix expresses "in a symbolic way, the origin of
religious values of the republican constitution. I am referring to freedom,
mutual respect, appreciation of the person, solidarity and the rejection of
any discrimination."
Mayor Guido Castelli cited state laws that agreed the display of crucifixes
in classrooms "does not seem open to criticism over the principle of
secularism" of the Italian State.
Mitsos***
It's true I am an atheist but it was thanks to Christianity that we
Greeks could preserve our identity as Greeks under ottoman rule
SN
There is one lady , Oriana Fallaci, who evolved from the anarchist
left
to the right but preserved her anti-clericalism. Nevertheless, she
gave
precisely the crosses in hospitals and schools as the example of
keeping the European identity.
Meanwhile I am watching some series of the "Muslim history of Europe"
on the ViaSat History Channel. This political correctness goes beyond
reason.
ADR
Europe was not a Christian place up to the 4th century CE and does not
have to be Christian in the future. I really do not care if the
crucifixes are not in schools or anywhere else. It is really
immaterial. But if crucifixes go, so much muslim scarfs and other
religious paraphenalia.
However, I see problems with this decision in countries in which there
is an official religion set by the constitution. Changing the
constitution in EU countries can only be done by treaty, not by court
decisions. No court can overturn the constitution of such countries
such as Ireland, UK, Greece, etc,... I expect that this decision would
be litigated to exhaustion.
Mitsos***
>>> non-compliance.
>>> Mayor Gatti said, "We will give principals time to adjust, but then the
>>> order will be respected."
>>> In a statement published on the municipality's website, the mayor
>>> referred to the ECHR decision, saying, "We believe that the crucifix is
>>> a symbolic expression in Italy of the religious origin of such important
>>> civic values as tolerance, mutual respect, enhancement of the person,
>>> freedom, solidarity and rejection of any discrimination."
>>> "I believe I have decided the right thing. I have always seen crucifixes
>>> in schools and I believe we should have respect for our traditions and
>>> defend them against those who do not even know what they're talking
>>> about," Gatti said.
>>> The mayor of Priverno in the province of Latina, Lazio, central Italy,
>>> signed an order which provides for the maintenance of crucifixes in
>>> classrooms of primary schools throughout the municipality. Mayor Umberto
>>> Macci, instructed the municipal police to check that crucifixes are in
>>> regulations on school furniture, which provided for the display of
>>> crucifixes in schools, the mayor said they are "an expression of
>>> fundamental civic values and Italian cultural values."
>>> The mayor of Ascoli Piceno in the in the Marche region near the central
>>> east coast, said the crucifix expresses "in a symbolic way, the origin
>>> of religious values of the republican constitution. I am referring to
>>> freedom, mutual respect, appreciation of the person, solidarity and the
>>> rejection of any discrimination."
>>> Mayor Guido Castelli cited state laws that agreed the display of
>>> crucifixes in classrooms "does not seem open to criticism over the
>>> principle of secularism" of the Italian State.
>>> http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/nov/09111702.html
>> The fuckers are now after the core of our identity.
>> It's true I am an atheist but it was thanks to Christianity that we
>> Greeks could preserve our identity as Greeks under ottoman rule
>
> Europe was not a Christian place up to the 4th century CE and does not
> have to be Christian in the future.
So no Christmas and no Easter celebrations?
> I really do not care if the
> crucifixes are not in schools or anywhere else. It is really
> immaterial. But if crucifixes go, so much muslim scarfs and other
> religious paraphenalia.
I agree on that one
>
> However, I see problems with this decision in countries in which there
> is an official religion set by the constitution. Changing the
> constitution in EU countries can only be done by treaty, not by court
> decisions. No court can overturn the constitution of such countries
> such as Ireland, UK, Greece, etc,... I expect that this decision would
> be litigated to exhaustion.
You will see many more attempts in the future to overturn national
sovereignty.
The EU should have been only a trade union of countries that want to
trade with each other but the goal was set much higher.
In 3 countries were voting on the EU constitution was permitted (
Ireland, Holland and France ) people voted no and yet we get the EU
constitution that was renamed Lisbon treaty.
I believe that the goal is to dissolve national governments or the very
least make them powerless and all countries in the EU will be governed
from one central buddy in the future.
Lets go out of the EU so long we still can.
Agamemnon
"Mitsos***" <smyrna@is_greek.org> wrote in message
news:he5m0f$occ$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Europe is being made into an dictatorship by the appointed elite just like
the days of communism. Did you see how the chose the new so-called
President, and so-called Foreign Affairs Chief? Both are complete nobodies
and the decision was a total stitch up between France, Germany and Brittan
and none of them are accountable to the people whatsoever. The person they
put in charge of Foreign Affairs only got her position because she was a
woman and because she was British and has never been elected to any kind of
political office in her life and knows nothing whatsoever about foreign
policy. What has Britain ever done for the EU? The so-called president is a
Belgian, a country where half the population speaks French and the other
half speaks German. Who is going to represent the views of the rest of
Europe and more importantly its people?
ADR
> >>>> non-compliance.
> >>>> Mayor Gatti said, "We will give principals time to adjust, but then the
> >>>> order will be respected."
> >>>> In a statement published on the municipality's website, the mayor
> >>>> referred to the ECHR decision, saying, "We believe that the crucifix is
> >>>> a symbolic expression in Italy of the religious origin of such
> >>>> important
> >>>> civic values as tolerance, mutual respect, enhancement of the person,
> >>>> freedom, solidarity and rejection of any discrimination."
> >>>> "I believe I have decided the right thing. I have always seen
> >>>> crucifixes
> >>>> in schools and I believe we should have respect for our traditions and
> >>>> defend them against those who do not even know what they're talking
> >>>> about," Gatti said.
> >>>> The mayor of Priverno in the province of Latina, Lazio, central Italy,
> >>>> signed an order which provides for the maintenance of crucifixes in
> >>>> classrooms of primary schools throughout the municipality. Mayor
> >>>> Umberto
> >>>> Macci, instructed the municipal police to check that crucifixes are in
Well, all of that is true but what does it really matter? It is not
as if these people have any real authority, is it? They are just
spokespersons and probably a bit better at that than the president of
commission.
Well, self-appointed elite or not, it is for the people of Europe to
make the union what it should be with their vote. The "constitution"
was overthrown by the will of the people. If we want a president
answerable to the people, then he/she must be elected by all the
people and must have real powers. In the absence of this, these are
only ceremonial posts, devoid of meaning and authority.
As for the Brits, they need to decide if they are in or out. The
public in Britain is hostile to the EU because the EU has always been
blamed for any problems that Britain has, mostly generated by British
internal policies. It was the convenient "whipping boy" of British
politicians who lack the strength to say to their public the truth.
Mitsos***
According to a friend of my who is from Britain "the UK is the Trojan
horse of the EU. Britain's function is to destroy the EU."
NWO is actually a new name for Anglo-American imperialism and
colonialism. The French president Sarkovsky is most likely not
representing the French people. It will show in the next elections
> The so-called president is a Belgian, a country where half the
> population speaks French and the other half speaks German. Who is going
> to represent the views of the rest of Europe and more importantly its
> people?
>
>
The EU should have never been more then a trade union of independent states.
"Free travel of goods and people" my ass. You have to have your passport
with you which is a violation of the Schengen contract and your body is
checked, pockets and bags for any imaginary "bombs" and you can't even
take water with you. I was surrounded by 5-6 "security scumbags " in
Helsinki and Hania. This is worse then in the 50's.
In the late 70's I crossed the Italian, Austrian and German border and I
had to show no identification. I walked over the border from Belgium to
Holland and went by car from Holland to Germany. Wasn't stopped a single
time. Now they treat you as a possible terrorist subject and as we all
know 911 was and inside job as the London subway bombings were from 2005 7/7
DonJose
> >>>>> non-compliance.
> >>>>> Mayor Gatti said, "We will give principals time to adjust, but then
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> order will be respected."
> >>>>> In a statement published on the municipality's website, the mayor
> >>>>> referred to the ECHR decision, saying, "We believe that the
> >>>>> crucifix is
> >>>>> a symbolic expression in Italy of the religious origin of such
> >>>>> important
> >>>>> civic values as tolerance, mutual respect, enhancement of the person,
> >>>>> freedom, solidarity and rejection of any discrimination."
> >>>>> "I believe I have decided the right thing. I have always seen
> >>>>> crucifixes
> >>>>> in schools and I believe we should have respect for our traditions and
> >>>>> defend them against those who do not even know what they're talking
> >>>>> about," Gatti said.
> >>>>> The mayor of Priverno in the province of Latina, Lazio, central Italy,
> >>>>> signed an order which provides for the maintenance of crucifixes in
> >>>>> classrooms of primary schools throughout the municipality. Mayor
> >>>>> Umberto
> >>>>> Macci, instructed the municipal police to check that crucifixes are in
>
> - Show quoted text -
Italian Mayors are revolting....
ADR
> >>>>> non-compliance.
> >>>>> Mayor Gatti said, "We will give principals time to adjust, but then
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> order will be respected."
> >>>>> In a statement published on the municipality's website, the mayor
> >>>>> referred to the ECHR decision, saying, "We believe that the
> >>>>> crucifix is
> >>>>> a symbolic expression in Italy of the religious origin of such
> >>>>> important
> >>>>> civic values as tolerance, mutual respect, enhancement of the person,
> >>>>> freedom, solidarity and rejection of any discrimination."
> >>>>> "I believe I have decided the right thing. I have always seen
> >>>>> crucifixes
> >>>>> in schools and I believe we should have respect for our traditions and
> >>>>> defend them against those who do not even know what they're talking
> >>>>> about," Gatti said.
> >>>>> The mayor of Priverno in the province of Latina, Lazio, central Italy,
> >>>>> signed an order which provides for the maintenance of crucifixes in
> >>>>> classrooms of primary schools throughout the municipality. Mayor
> >>>>> Umberto
> >>>>> Macci, instructed the municipal police to check that crucifixes are in
As having lived in the UK for a long time, I have to say that this is
bunk. There are persons in UK with clear pro-EU orientation and there
are those (the majority) which is hostile to it. The the anti-EU
sentiment is fed directly by the gutter press. Just read the
"Sun" (which I still do, just for fun) and you will see anti-EU digs
daily. I actually a bit at a loss to describe this widely shared
prejudice against the EU but it may have a lot to do with the fact
that for a long time, the EU was strongly associated with France and
Germany and the UK highly priced its "special" relationship with the
US. I think that the last 10 years have disabused the Brits of any
"special" relationship with the US, although such a relationship is
still key in their considerations. Thus, the more the UK is immersed
in the EU, the more difficult it would be to maintain a "special"
relationship with the US. Thus, strengthening of the EU results in
downgrading UK's importance for the US, thus the ambivalence. I
remember the outcry when the milkmen deliveries were outlawed. I have
to say that it was a quaint and pleasant aspect of daily life. My
milk was delivered by a milkman on a horse-drawn carriage (no kidding)
and the sound of the horse hooves on the pavement of my street was a
familiar sound of my early morning. British life outside London
clings to traditional and familiar. Most of my neighborhood was built
in early Victorian times and was virtually unchanged since late
Edwardian times. You can understand that changes imposed from
"outsiders" (or perceived to have been) created a climate of ill
will.
> NWO is actually a new name for Anglo-American imperialism and
> colonialism. The French president Sarkovsky is most likely not
> representing the French people. It will show in the next elections
Sarkosy is very popular in France.
> > The so-called president is a Belgian, a country where half the
> > population speaks French and the other half speaks German. Who is going
> > to represent the views of the rest of Europe and more importantly its
> > people?
>
> The EU should have never been more then a trade union of independent states.
> "Free travel of goods and people" my ass. You have to have your passport
> with you which is a violation of the Schengen contract and your body is
> checked, pockets and bags for any imaginary "bombs" and you can't even
> take water with you. I was surrounded by 5-6 "security scumbags " in
> Helsinki and Hania. This is worse then in the 50's.
Helsinki and Hania are in the UK??? Just for your information,
Britain does not participate in the Schengen treaty (others do not so
either). Britain does not participate in the EU common labor law and
other provisions. Since the EU allows member states a discretion on
these issues, Britain is looking out for number one, as anybody wise
enough would do. Of course, other countries are allowed to impose as
many restrictions on British visitors as appropriate. If they do not
do so, it is by choice.
> In the late 70's I crossed the Italian, Austrian and German border and I
> had to show no identification. I walked over the border from Belgium to
> Holland and went by car from Holland to Germany. Wasn't stopped a single
> time. Now they treat you as a possible terrorist subject and as we all
> know 911 was and inside job as the London subway bombings were from 2005 7/7
9/11 was an "inside job"? What is this? Another conspiracy
theory??? Again, you have your facts wrong. Britain is not a
signatory of the Schengen treaty in its entirety. If it were, you
would have been right to complaint.