Al-Jazeera takes on the "history" of "Palestine" (1)
Deborah Sharavi
say it is not unique.
What's wrong with this picture?
Deborah
From the Al-Jizzum website "Special Reports: PALESTINE the people and
the land"
Gems from "Country Profile":
PALESTINE - whatever its contested land mass and final geographical
status - lies on the western edge of Asia and towards the eastern
extreme of the Mediterranean Sea. On its northern side is Lebanon and
Syria; to its east is Jordan, to the south lies the Gulf of Aqaba and
the Egyptian Sinai Peninsula and to the west is the Mediterranean Sea.
Language
The official language is Arabic but many people also speak English and
some also speak Hebrew and French.
Land area
What is traditionally known as historic Palestine (the land of
Palestine up to 1948) has a land area of 26,323km2 (10,162 square
miles). The West Bank and Gaza Strip currently comprise the territory
called Occupied Palestine. The West Bank is approximately 5,800km2;
130km long and 40-65km wide. The Gaza Strip is 365km2; 45km long and
5-12km wide.
Centres of population
The capital is Jerusalem (al-Quds in Arabic). Palestine's other cities
include Haifa, Jaffa, Safad, Asqalan, Akko and Ramlah (contained
within historic Palestine) and Jenin, Tulkaram, Nablus, Jericho, Ram
Allah, Bethlehem, Hebron (within the West Bank) and Gaza City, Khan
Yunis and Rafah (within Gaza).
The currency
Three currencies are used; the US dollar, the Jordanian Dinar and the
New Israeli Shekel.
The people
Palestinians are an Arab people. Their total population is between 7.5
and 8.5 million according to official statistics. More than four and a
half million are refugees, scattered within Palestine and abroad
(known as the Diaspora). There are close to a million Palestinians
living in Israel and these people are referred to as Israeli Arabs;
more than two million live in the West Bank; and a further million
live in the Gaza Strip. The rest are spread throughout the Middle
East, with communities in Europe, the US, Latin America and elsewhere.
HISTORICAL BACKGROUND
The Stone Age
By 3000BC the region – with a climate and fertile terrain similar to
that of California - was not only being extensively farmed but it also
formed a strategic hub for traders.
We know that the earliest ancestors of today's Palestinians, the
Canaanites, were sophisticated city dwellers who occupied the region
from 3000BC. They had trading links with Africa, Asia and Europe.
Ports, including Gaza, saw spices and luxury goods passing through
their docks and across the Mediterranean to the major cities of the
world.
But Palestine's strategic position also made it a natural battleground
for the great powers of the ancient world.
Ethnically diverse invaders such as the Amorites, the Hittites and the
Hurrians posed a constant challenge to the Canaanite's struggle for
autonomy. But the success of the Canaanites in keeping out the
invaders, together with a culturally rich society, swelled their
numbers to an estimated 200,000 people.
In the 4th millennium, the Ghassulians, whose origins remain unclear,
emigrated to Palestine. This group of people is known as Ghassulians
because their pottery and flints were found in settlements at Tulaylat
al-Ghassul in the Jordan Valley.
The Bronze Age
The Bronze Age
The early Bronze Age saw the growth of most of the towns that were
known in historic times. The Palestinian towns of Megiddo, Jericho,
Tell al-Farah, Bait Sheaan, Khirbet, Kerak and Ai in northern and
central Palestine hold the most significant evidence of the first
phase of the early Bronze Age.
In southern Palestine, the towns of Tell ad-Duweir, Tell Bait Mirsim
and Tell al-Hessi appear to have been built in the late Bronze Age.
This indigenous Semitic population were called Canaanites.
The tracing of the ethno-cultural origins of the Canaanites and the
other groups of the region (the Leviant) leads us to the fact that
those inhabitants included the Amorites (of the southwestern desert),
the Akkadians and Assyrians (Mesopotamia), the Arameans, the Habiru
(Hebrews) and the Bedu (Beduin Arabs of the southern desert).
These groups spoke related languages including Hamitic, ancient
Egyptian, Coptic and Ethiopian languages.
Throughout the Bronze Age, nomads from Arabia made sporadic forays
into the area. Though initially hostile, the Arabs were incorporated
into the existing culture. Later Indo-European groups also immigrated,
intermingled with and were absorbed by the Semitic cultures.
Walled Palestinian towns appeared throughout Palestine in the third
millennium. These towns remained independent city states,
intermittently subjugated to Egyptian control.
Palestine was occupied by several allied tribes which had many
features in common as well as their differences. They were essentially
nomadic with tribal centres unlike the Canaanites who lived in the
plains and the coastal areas where they practiced farming.
The middle Bronze Age
This period marked the start of Canaanite culture and the entry of the
Israelites into Palestine in the 14th and 13th centuries BC. Middle
Bronze Age civilization in Palestine flourished with strong links to
the towns of the Phoenician-Canaanite coast.
Egyptian documents provide valuable information about the region
during the 12th Egyptian dynasty (1938 to 1756BC) which saw
significant Egyptian interests and influence in Palestine.
The late Bronze Age
The middle and late Bronze Ages in Palestine had no sharp differences.
Egyptian armies conquered Palestine proven by administrative documents
excavated in both Egypt and Palestine showing details of provincial
government organisation in Palestine between 1450 and 1350BC.
In the course of the closing decades of 13th century BC, the incoming
Israelites were able to occupy most of the hill country east of the
Jordan river and in western Palestine. Evidence provided by
archaeological research suggests that the Israelite settlement in
Palestine was much more complex and disconnected than indicated by
biblical accounts.
[cont'd]
Ariel
funny, yet sad, because they perpetuate the (accurate) image of arabs being
pathological liars.
I laughed when I read that AlJazeera claims that "palestinians" are the
descendants of the Canaanites. That's pretty pathetic and, again, sad,
because it shows the desperation of "palestinians" in trying to identify
themselves with something (anything).
Funny also when AlJazeera puts the history of "palestinians" as far back as
the Stone Age....in their view "palestinians" were on earth BEFORE the man
of the Cromagnon ....I was crying in laughter when I read that!!!
"Deborah Sharavi" <dsha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3cf157c1.03121...@posting.google.com...
> By 3000BC the region - with a climate and fertile terrain similar to
MR
news:brnpfj$5ejqb$1...@ID-205389.news.uni-berlin.de:
> I've read Aljazeera's position on the history of "palestine"...it's
> prety funny, yet sad, because they perpetuate the (accurate) image of
> arabs being pathological liars.
> I laughed when I read that AlJazeera claims that "palestinians" are
> the descendants of the Canaanites. That's pretty pathetic and, again,
> sad, because it shows the desperation of "palestinians" in trying to
> identify themselves with something (anything).
> Funny also when AlJazeera puts the history of "palestinians" as far
> back as the Stone Age....in their view "palestinians" were on earth
> BEFORE the man of the Cromagnon ....I was crying in laughter when I
> read that!!!
Hmmm, you seem to be operating under some confusion here. You should be
crying from embarrassment rather than laughter. Their account of the
history of Palestine seems to be spot on. Homo sapiens (Cro-Magnon, or
"anatomically modern" man), emerged around 90,000 years ago not 3000 BCE
which is when this history begins. But even before 3000 BCE there were
certainly humans already in the whole region. Infact there are only 3
main types of humanoids "races". Mongoloid, Negroid and Caucasoid. The
Caucasoids were the ancestors of the Semitic, Indian, Persian and
European groups that we are more familiar with today. Of course later
there was the spit within the Semitic tribes that form today's two main
Semitic groups the Arabs and Jews. So they are correct in stating that
these Canaanites were the ancestors of both Jews and Palestinian Arabs.
But really this whole region and specifically the Palestinian region is
truly a hodgepodge of genetic mixtures. Indeed today genetic tests show
that decedents of Palestinian Jews and Arabs are essentially
indistinguishable, that they are infact the same people with only the
man-made religious fantasies to foment hatred between the two peoples.
How about instead of all this absurd religious obsession with Zionism and
Islam we had a unified multi-ethnic, multi-cultural democratic and
secular Israel/Palestine? We could call it Palaisrael or Isralastine. Is
that such a crazy idea?
For a more articulate assessment, see my earlier post of the article
written by Tony Judt titled: Israel: The Alternative
Ariel
MR" <n...@no.com> wrote in message news:Xns94539...@216.65.98.9...
You're either confused or don't know how to read:
I quote from Al Jazeera:
The Stone Age
By 3000BC the region - with a climate and fertile terrain similar to
that of California - was not only being extensively farmed but it also
formed a strategic hub for traders.
...and so on.....
the Stone Age is widely known to be the period of the Paleolithic.
Neandertals and Cro-Magnons emerged during this period , which is considered
to be around 250,000 years.
Al Jazeera claims that the Stone Age is 3000 years old and that it was
during this period that the "palestinians" emerged.
I don't know where you get the figure of 90,000. The Stone Age started about
250,000 years ago. In the upper Paleolithic there were discovered the cave
arts made by the CroMagnon.
If the "palestinians" emerged during the Stone Age they probably could have
emerged before the CroMagnon, according to the bizarre reading of history of
Al Jazeera.
To place the "palestinians" as having emerged during the Stone Age, as Al
Jazeera claims, is laughable. To claim the Stone Age is dated around 3000 BC
is downright pathetic. That is what I laughed at and it still makes me laugh
every time I read it.
> How about instead of all this absurd religious obsession with Zionism and
> Islam we had a unified multi-ethnic, multi-cultural democratic and
> secular Israel/Palestine? We could call it Palaisrael or Isralastine. Is
> that such a crazy idea?
There's no obsession , religious or secular.
Zionism is a national movement that advocates for the defense of Israel as
the home of the Jewish people. Your attempts at depicting it as anything
else colides with hints of antisemitism.
> For a more articulate assessment, see my earlier post of the article
> written by Tony Judt titled: Israel: The Alternative
That article is a piece of crap and it shows the author as a rabid,
irrational self hating jew with the intelligence of a crippled cockroach.
Ariel
"Ariel" <ari...@37.com> wrote in message
news:bro7so$5o0ji$1...@ID-205389.news.uni-berlin.de...
<snip>
Sorry, meant to say 5000.
jneal
I did, and it is totally off, both historically, as well as the
conclusions.
You (or the writer) fail to mention that almost all travellers to
Palest. in the 1700 and 1800 hundreds give vivid descriptions
concerning the land and people. Even the famed Samuel Clemens (Mark
Twain) joined in the articlation during the big pilgrimage by
Americans and Europeans wrote concerning this fact: where were the
Arabs then? Jews far out numbered the Arabs in Jerusalem and elsewhere
as well. The majority population of Arabs there were Maranite
Christians. The Ottomans accepted money from Christians and Jews who
were willing to pay for land there. Of course, the Arabs weren't
willing to purchase land there, they apparently did consider it
worthwhile, though they had the oppurtunity.
You also fail to mention that the Arabs were hire as mercenaries to
invade and kill off the inhabitants of the land (including Europeans
and Americans) in order to drive the Ottmans out. This amounts to
blood-money.
There we see the big influx of Arabs into the region, many who were
forced by their clerics and or gov't to go and fight at a point of the
sword and informed they would not be premitted to return, and the
displacement of Syrians (non-Arab), Lebanese and Jews, among others.
The Arab countries have been faithful in that order...for they refuse
to receive any Arab Palestinian to live as citizens in the native
homeland.
Also, writer didn't acknowledge that Trans-Jordan was siezed from
Israel at the demands of the Arabs for the creation of a homeland for
the so-called displaced Arabs/Palestinians. Thus Jordan was created
specifically for that purpose.
Can a problem be resolved without addressing the issues? without
acknowledging the history, the track record?
A good literary style does not compensate for inaccurate or misleading
information nor bias.
Given the single choice, I prefer accuracy.
The kisses of an enemy are profuse, but the wounds of a friend are
faithful.
cheers,
john
Tam
c222239c.03121...@posting.google.com, "jneal" <jn...@praize.com>
wrote:
> You (or the writer) fail to mention that almost all travellers to
> Palest. in the 1700 and 1800 hundreds give vivid descriptions
> concerning the land and people.
To many or most Palestinians, the issue is rather Hamas's claim that
Palestine was "given to the Muslims as waqf in perpetuity by Omar, the
Second Caliph."
This is no more outrageous a belief than that G-d gave Sumaria and Judea to
the Jewish people forever.
However, diligent research on my part has failed to substantiate the Hamas
claim. I leave it to others to deal with the Jewsish claim (not that it is
universally accepted by Jews, of course), and whether such concepts as
eminent domain can supersede them.
For those who care, virtually every state has confiscated waqf lands with
impunity. If not, nearly all the land in Muslim countries would now be
controlled by the clergy. (Waqfs are often used as a sort of dynastic trust
and tax avoidance mechanism, since it can be given for pious purposes "at
such time in the future as I have no living descendants".
Deborah Sharavi
<<news:brnpfj$5ejqb$1...@ID-205389.news.uni-berlin.de:
<<<I've read Aljazeera's position on the history of "palestine"...it's
<<<prety funny, yet sad, because they perpetuate the (accurate) image
of
<<<arabs being pathological liars.
Or people desperately in search of an identity, because
they have rejected their true identity.
<<<I laughed when I read that AlJazeera claims that "palestinians" are
<<<the descendants of the Canaanites. That's pretty pathetic and,
again,
<<<sad, because it shows the desperation of "palestinians" in trying
to
<<<identify themselves with something (anything).
In either case, Al-Jazzum is behind the times. The Pallie
"Canaanite descent" claim seems to be going the way of
the previous Pallie claim to Philistine descent; their
latest is that they are descended from the original
Israelites (therefore, they have the greater right to
the Land because the G-d of Israel gave it to them).
How's that for a shuffling of (non)factoids?
<<<Funny also when AlJazeera puts the history of "palestinians" as far
<<<back as the Stone Age....
Which Stone Age? Paleolithic (c2.6 mya to c12,000/10,000 ya) or
Mesolithic or Neolithic (c10,000/5,000 ya)?
<<<in their view "palestinians" were on earth
<<<BEFORE the man of the Cromagnon ....I was crying
<<<in laughter when I read that!!!
If they mean paleolithic, then they're placing Pallies
in "Palestine" not only before there were humans, but
before there was a landmass to place them on.
<MR" <n...@no.com<wrote in message news:Xns94539...@216.65.98.9...
<<Hmmm, you seem to be operating under some confusion here. You should
be
<<crying from embarrassment rather than laughter. Their account of the
<<history of Palestine seems to be spot on. Homo sapiens (Cro-Magnon,
or
<<"anatomically modern" man), emerged around 90,000 years ago not 3000
<<BCE which is when this history begins.
Early modern homo sapiens emerged c140,000 ya. The oldest
find to date is from Israel c90,000 ya. It's doubtful the
original owner of that skull called himself a "Palestinian".
It is equally doubtful that the ancestors of today's Pallies
were living in the Israel of c3,000 BCE.
<<But even before 3000 BCE there were
<<certainly humans already in the whole region. Infact there are only
3
<<main types of humanoids "races". Mongoloid, Negroid and Caucasoid.
There are (or were) four or five "race" typings, Caucasoid,
Negroid, Mongoloid, Capoid, and Australoid. Mitochondrial
DNA analysis is sending that sort of typing the way of
the Pallies' Philistine descent claim, except that it's
still useful as a sort of verbal/written shorthand. There
is really only one human race.
<<The
<<Caucasoids were the ancestors of the Semitic, Indian, Persian and
<<European groups that we are more familiar with today. Of course
later
<<there was the spit within the Semitic tribes that form today's two
main
<<Semitic groups the Arabs and Jews.
"Semitic" is a language, not a "racial", division,
which include Hebrew, Aramaic, Coptic, Syriac, and
Arabic, also Hamito-Semitic languages of North Africa
(Egyptian, Berber, etc), and extinct ancient Semitic
languages such as Akkadian. Canaanite languages are
(were) Hebrew, Ugaritic, Phoenician and Moabite. There was no "split"
<<So they are correct in stating that
<<these Canaanites were the ancestors of both Jews and Palestinian
Arabs.
DNA analysis shows they are wrong.
<<But really this whole region and specifically the Palestinian region
is
<<truly a hodgepodge of genetic mixtures. Indeed today genetic tests
show
<<that decedents of Palestinian Jews and Arabs are essentially
<<indistinguishable, that they are infact the same people with only
the
<<man-made religious fantasies to foment hatred between the two
peoples.
Oh really, ya think? If true, that would be quite remarkable,
considering the fact that "Canaanites" were a mixed bag of
non-Semitic Indo-European invaders from the Anatolian area
who were subquently overrun by Semitic Amorite invaders
and later non-Semitic Indo-European Hurrians and Hittites.
Has anyone come up with any genetic analysis showing that
Pallies are indistinguishable from Jews - Palestinian or
otherwise? I haven't seen any. What I have seen are DNA
analyses from a random sample of Israeli Jews, Jews still
living in Yemen, and members of South Africa's Lemba tribe,
whose traditions state they descend from the Jews of ancient
Israel via Yemen. As the Lemba are black, their claims were
dismissed. DNA analysis (1997) showed, however, genetic
markers extremely rare in non-Jewish populations, and which,
when present are highly indicative of Jewish ancestry, thus
validating Lemba traditions.
Any "genetic tests" exist which show that Pallie Arabs are
"essentially indistinguishable" from Palestinian Jews? I
didn't think so.
"Ariel" <ari...@37.com<wrote in message news:<bro7so$5o0ji$1...@ID-205389.news.uni-berlin.de>...
<You're either confused or don't know how to read:
<I quote from Al Jazeera:
<The Stone Age
<By 3000BC the region - with a climate and fertile terrain similar to
<that of California - was not only being extensively farmed but it
also
<formed a strategic hub for traders.
<...and so on.....
Farmed, yes, but "extensively farmed"? and a "strategic
hub for traders" in 3000 BCE? Don't think so.
<the Stone Age is widely known to be the period of the Paleolithic.
<Neandertals and Cro-Magnons emerged during this period, which is
<considered to be around 250,000 years.
Naturally Neandertal and "Cro-Magnon" appeared during
the "Stone Age". See above. Stone Age = Paleolithic =
2.6 mya to 12,000 ya.
<Al Jazeera claims that the Stone Age is 3000 years old and that it
was
<during this period that the "palestinians" emerged.
<I don't know where you get the figure of 90,000.
Modern human skull c90,000 ya - one of 21 persons
- found in Qafzeh Cave.
<The Stone Age started about 250,000 years ago.
2.6 million ya.
<In the upper Paleolithic there were discovered the cave
<arts made by the CroMagnon.
<If the "palestinians" emerged during the Stone Age they probably
could have
<emerged before the CroMagnon, according to the bizarre reading of
<history of Al Jazeera.
In fact, in Israel, early modern humans (Qafzeh, Kebara)
appear BEFORE Neandertal, which validates the sometimes
disputed FACT that we all came from Africa and the FACT
that there is only ONE human race.
But see also:
"Modern-day genetic research is providing evidence that morphological
distinctions are not necessarily proof of evolutionary relatedness.
Recent evidence suggests that humans are in fact more closely related
to the chimpanzee and bonobo than either species is to the gorilla.
Chimps and humans share something like 98 percent of genes, indicating
that we share a common ape ancestor.
"ivergence times between the two groups based on a molecular clock
suggest that the chimpanzee/human split occurred between five and
seven million years ago. In turn, the African apes, including humans,
are more closely related to each other than any are to the orangutan.
"
- http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/12/1204_hominin_id.html
<To place the "palestinians" as having emerged during the Stone Age,
as Al
<Jazeera claims, is laughable. To claim the Stone Age is dated around
3000 BC
<is downright pathetic. That is what I laughed at and it still makes
me laugh
<every time I read it.
Stone Age was long gone by 3000 BCE, except in certain
areas of the world. And no, the Palestinians' ancestral
land of Arabia was not one of those areas. The Pallie
claim to Israel goes something like this: "We are not
Palestinians, Palestine is a European invention, we
are Arabs and southern Syrians. No, scratch that. We
are Palestinian Arabs and Arab Palestinians and an
integral part of the Arab Nation. Oh, Jews were here
before us? So what? We are an integral part of the
Arab nation AND we descend from the Philistines. Huh?
Whaddya mean the Philistines were wiped out and the
Jews came back? We're Palestinian Arabs and we descend
from the Canaanites, who were here before the Jews.
Oh, Canaanite is just a catchall term for the pre-Israelite
population of Canaan? Big deal. Here's this guy who
says European Jews descend from a bunch of Russian
converts. Fine by us, Jews are all Khazars, and we're
Palestinian Arabs AND we descend from the original Jews
of Israel, so get lost."
I think I said a few years back that pretty soon the
Pallies would start claiming they are Israelites. I
was only joking, tbough, I never thought they'd take
it seriously. If anyone takes it seriously.
<<How about instead of all this absurd religious obsession with
Zionism and
<<Islam we had a unified multi-ethnic, multi-cultural democratic and
<<secular Israel/Palestine? We could call it Palaisrael or
Isralastine. <<Is that such a crazy idea?
Yes.
Zionism is not a "religious obsession", and there is no
reason there can't be a "unified" and "multi-cultural
democratic" Pallie state in the 77% of former Palestine
now known as Jordan. We could call it "Palajordan" or
"Jordanastine".
Deborah
Deborah Sharavi
>>written by Tony Judt titled: Israel: The Alternative
>I did, and it is totally off, both historically, as well as the
>conclusions.
It's a crock.
>You (or the writer) fail to mention that almost all travellers to
>Palest. in the 1700 and 1800 hundreds give vivid descriptions
>concerning the land and people. Even the famed Samuel Clemens (Mark
>Twain) joined in the articlation during the big pilgrimage by
>Americans and Europeans wrote concerning this fact: where were the
>Arabs then?
Both Mark Twain and Lawrence of Arabia referred to the Arabs
of Palestine as the Arabs of Palestine referred to themselves:
Syrians. Neither were impressed with them.
>Jews far out numbered the Arabs in Jerusalem and elsewhere
>as well.
Only in Jerusalem. Jews outnumbered Arabs in Zefat and
Tiberias, but that was before the earthquake of 1838 and
the subsequent droughts and locust infestations brought
down the population for the entire region.
>The majority population of Arabs there were Maranite
>Christians.
The Arab population of Ottoman Palestine (that is, Israel
and the northern Negev, western Jordan, SW Syria, and
southern Lebanon) were predominantly Muslim. Xians were
compacted into specific areas, as were Jews.
>The Ottomans accepted money from Christians and Jews who
>were willing to pay for land there. Of course, the Arabs weren't
>willing to purchase land there, they apparently did consider it
>worthwhile, though they had the oppurtunity.
The Ottoman Empire was the major landowner in Ottoman
"Palestine". The greater part of non-government lands
were owned by some 13 leading effendi (Arab) clans,
who were perfectly willing to sell their land to Jews
at usually outrageous prices. The local kamikams, or
regional governors, placed restrictions on land sales
to Europeans c1900, which effectively meant they were
restricting land sales to Jews, since Jews were the only
Europeans buying land. Arab effendis usually managed to
get around the restrictions.
>You also fail to mention that the Arabs were hire as mercenaries to
>invade and kill off the inhabitants of the land (including Europeans
>and Americans) in order to drive the Ottmans out. This amounts to
>blood-money.
When were Arabs hired to do that? Nomadic Arab raiders
didn't distinguish whom they robbed from, and were equal-
opportunity pains in the ass to Jews and Arabs and everyone
else who didn't guard his lands.
>There we see the big influx of Arabs into the region, many who were
>forced by their clerics and or gov't to go and fight at a point of the
>sword and informed they would not be premitted to return, and the
>displacement of Syrians (non-Arab), Lebanese and Jews, among others.
When? There was an influx of Arab immigrants when the Jewish
agricultural settlements became viable, and a far greater
Arab influx under the British Mandate.
>The Arab countries have been faithful in that order...for they refuse
>to receive any Arab Palestinian to live as citizens in the native
>homeland.
That's a fact. Even before Iraq's invasion, Kuwait denied
citizenship rights to all Palestinians living there, even
those who had been born there, and following Kuwait's
reassumption of sovereignty, there were numerous reports of
human rights violations and abuse of Palestinians, prior to
their expulsion, for their support of Saddam and collaboration
with his army. Then there's Black September in Jordan, and
that's not a reference to the Pallie terrorist group.
>Also, writer didn't acknowledge that Trans-Jordan was siezed from
>Israel at the demands of the Arabs for the creation of a homeland for
>the so-called displaced Arabs/Palestinians. Thus Jordan was created
>specifically for that purpose.
The British created the emirate of Transjordan in 1923 from appx
77% of Palestine and gave it to the Hashimi of Arabia as a reward
for their services to the Allies during WWI.
Deborah
Deborah Sharavi
<<Palest. in the 1700 and 1800 hundreds give vivid descriptions
<<concerning the land and people.
Tam <tamsu...@yahoo.ca<wrote in message news:<BC0666B9.3DDA%tamsu...@yahoo.ca<...
<To many or most Palestinians, the issue is rather Hamas's claim that
<Palestine was "given to the Muslims as waqf in perpetuity by Omar, the
<Second Caliph."
The term used was, I believe, " al-Arad al-Muqaddash", or the Holy Land.
In either case, that occurred in the 7thC, prior to the conquest of
the land by Seljuks, then by European Crusaders,
then Egyptians, Ottomans, and the British.
<This is no more outrageous a belief than that G-d gave Sumaria and Judea to
<the Jewish people forever.
<However, diligent research on my part has failed to substantiate the Hamas
<claim. I leave it to others to deal with the Jewsish claim (not that it is
<universally accepted by Jews, of course), and whether such concepts as
<eminent domain can supersede them.
For devout Muslims such as the Hamasniks, I would imagine
the dictates of Allah take precedent over the declarations
of Omar, and according to the Quran, Allah destined the
land of Israel for the sons of Israel.
Moses said unto his people: Remember the good deeds that
Allah has done for you, who appointed and gave you prophets
and rulers, something he has not given to any nation in the
world; and now, my people, enter the Holy Land [al-Arad al-
Muqaddash] which Allah has destined for you.
- Quran, Sura 5.20-21
Then, We let the people [Israel], who were despised, inherit
the eastern and western parts of the land which we had
blessed. And the fair word of Allah was fulfilled for the
Sons of Israel because of their endurance.
- Quran, Sura 7.137
Then We said to the Sons of Israel: Dwell in the Holy Land,
and when the promise of the hereafter will be fulfilled,
we shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various
nations.
- Quran, Sura 17.104
Evidently Hamasniks have not read their Quran, or else,
having read it, they are deliberately disobeying Allah.
No virgins for them.
Deborah
jneal
> c222239c.03121...@posting.google.com, "jneal" <jn...@praize.com>
> wrote:
>
> > You (or the writer) fail to mention that almost all travellers to
> > Palest. in the 1700 and 1800 hundreds give vivid descriptions
> > concerning the land and people.
>
> To many or most Palestinians, the issue is rather Hamas's claim that
> Palestine was "given to the Muslims as waqf in perpetuity by Omar, the
> Second Caliph."
>
understand. But even that claim is inconsistent with what is
propagated, whereas in the 1780's they came up with a scheme that the
world owes them money and began pirating of the African coast, so long
as a nation paid, their ship was left alone. All the nations of the
world paid them, including the famed British, of whom it is said
"ruled the sea." The U.S. was alone in refusing to cater to their
claimed ownership of trade routes through Med. Sea, and their demands
that we pay for usage of the trade routes was met with decisive action
by U.S. warships in whatever port they happen to find them in,
anywhere in the world (including ally ports). They were rightfully
blown out of the water.
So the standard, appar. set by said caliph Omar, seemingly is after
refusal to tribute payment.
> This is no more outrageous a belief than that G-d gave Sumaria and Judea to
> the Jewish people forever.
>
Theologically, there is a major dictinction, and that of God and a
mere man.
God is able to defend his claim, and must resort to his own hands. The
claim
was not Sumaria (lower portion of mod. Iraq), but rather the area
known at that time comprising of the area of tribal Canaan (not to be
confused with where the Arabs are derived from, Joktan).
BTW - Omar, nor his predeccessors, brought no new ethical, moral code
to the world. But like so many others, made use of what was already
known, in a very historical act of open plagarism.
> However, diligent research on my part has failed to substantiate the Hamas
> claim. I leave it to others to deal with the Jewsish claim (not that it is
> universally accepted by Jews, of course), and whether such concepts as
> eminent domain can supersede them.
>
I would tend to agree that Omar's alledged statement is not relevant,
unless of course, by their doctrine he superceedes mohammed and the
koran.
The identification of virtually every society is dependant, in part,
upon their geographical area, where their roots are. The Jews for
centuries and centuries have been identified by the land called
Israel, by themselves, and the rest of the world, including the
Moslems. That is a given concept by millions and millions over the
centuries which cannot be wiped away by the stroke of a pen and the
hand on the sword, or wishful thinking.
> For those who care, virtually every state has confiscated waqf lands with
> impunity. If not, nearly all the land in Muslim countries would now be
> controlled by the clergy. (Waqfs are often used as a sort of dynastic trust
> and tax avoidance mechanism, since it can be given for pious purposes "at
> such time in the future as I have no living descendants".
But, if the rest of the world were to adopt that same Islamic
standard, the clerics and the Arab gov'ts would be the first to
complain and bitterly oppose.
The Arch of Titus is a given historical fact, which remains
unchallangeable, as to both Rome's might, as well as to the extent of
their empire. Would it then be just for the Italians to levy a tax on
the former Roman empire and demand payment, or perish by the sword?
Furthermore, all of the monuments in Egypt (and elsewhere) testify
that they were not built by Arabs. How then can they lay claim, as in
ownership, to that which they have not built as though they did? and
demand tax as revenue for religious purposes, when even the momuments
are against the very tenets of their faith? Does the tax sanctify that
which mohammed called sin? and ordered to be destroyed in Medina and
Mecca?
cheers,
john
jneal
dsha...@hotmail.com (Deborah Sharavi) wrote in message news:<3cf157c1.03121...@posting.google.com>...
> >MR <n...@no.com> wrote in message news:<Xns94539...@216.65.98.9>...
> >>For a more articulate assessment, see my earlier post of the article
> >>written by Tony Judt titled: Israel: The Alternative
>
> jn...@praize.com (jneal) wrote in message news:<c222239c.03121...@posting.google.com>...
> >I did, and it is totally off, both historically, as well as the
> >conclusions.
>
> It's a crock.
>
It certainly is slanted.
>
> >You (or the writer) fail to mention that almost all travellers to
> >Palest. in the 1700 and 1800 hundreds give vivid descriptions
> >concerning the land and people. Even the famed Samuel Clemens (Mark
> >Twain) joined in the articlation during the big pilgrimage by
> >Americans and Europeans wrote concerning this fact: where were the
> >Arabs then?
>
> Both Mark Twain and Lawrence of Arabia referred to the Arabs
> of Palestine as the Arabs of Palestine referred to themselves:
> Syrians. Neither were impressed with them.
>
> >Jews far out numbered the Arabs in Jerusalem and elsewhere
> >as well.
>
> Only in Jerusalem. Jews outnumbered Arabs in Zefat and
> Tiberias, but that was before the earthquake of 1838 and
> the subsequent droughts and locust infestations brought
> down the population for the entire region.
>
I disagree, if you are stating that Tiberias and Zefat are the only
communities that were Jewish. There were several communites that
were soley Jewish, especially around Lake Kinneret.
my statemant was not to construe that Jews out-numbered any/all
people, but according to various sources (both Israeli, and other
gov'ts)
the modern rewriting that Jews were only in Jerusalem is totally
bogus.
In fact, there are legitmate claims that there has been a continous
Jewish presence in the land in at least one community from the time
of the first Temple Period, and at least two other communities from
the
2nd Temple (Prof. Yohanan Aharoni, and Prof. Michael Avi-Yonah; see
also
Carta's Guide to Israel).
> >The majority population of Arabs there were Maranite
> >Christians.
>
> The Arab population of Ottoman Palestine (that is, Israel
> and the northern Negev, western Jordan, SW Syria, and
> southern Lebanon) were predominantly Muslim. Xians were
> compacted into specific areas, as were Jews.
>
Muslim - Turks, not Arab in the early 1900's, and then predominately
soldiers who ought not to have been counted in census.
I was talking about the land purchases predominately by European
churches which amassed huge land area. Many of them, as Jews,
have had to purchase the same land several times, even from the
Ottoman's.
> >The Ottomans accepted money from Christians and Jews who
> >were willing to pay for land there. Of course, the Arabs weren't
> >willing to purchase land there, they apparently did consider it
> >worthwhile, though they had the oppurtunity.
>
> The Ottoman Empire was the major landowner in Ottoman
> "Palestine". The greater part of non-government lands
> were owned by some 13 leading effendi (Arab) clans,
> who were perfectly willing to sell their land to Jews
> at usually outrageous prices. The local kamikams, or
> regional governors, placed restrictions on land sales
> to Europeans c1900, which effectively meant they were
> restricting land sales to Jews, since Jews were the only
> Europeans buying land. Arab effendis usually managed to
> get around the restrictions.
>
There was an interesting story in the Jerusalem Post, written by
one of the so-called christian patriarch's on this very subject.
The JPost (in an editor's note) claim that they are one of the
largest land-owners in Israel.
He bitterly complained that they have had to purchase the same land
from the Moslems and Arabs time after time down over the centuries,
and that now the PLO maffia/thugs/gov't were demanding money in order
for them to retain it. His main question, how many times do we have
to purchase the same land? And then goes into a little detail.
> >You also fail to mention that the Arabs were hire as mercenaries to
> >invade and kill off the inhabitants of the land (including Europeans
> >and Americans) in order to drive the Ottmans out. This amounts to
> >blood-money.
>
> When were Arabs hired to do that? Nomadic Arab raiders
> didn't distinguish whom they robbed from, and were equal-
> opportunity pains in the ass to Jews and Arabs and everyone
> else who didn't guard his lands.
>
> >There we see the big influx of Arabs into the region, many who were
> >forced by their clerics and or gov't to go and fight at a point of the
> >sword and informed they would not be premitted to return, and the
> >displacement of Syrians (non-Arab), Lebanese and Jews, among others.
>
See presidential papers of Woodrow Wilson, Yale University (on-line),
where he finds the axis powers practice of hiring mercanaries
condemnable, and morally reprehensible.
Not to be confused with the nomadic people (who may or may not be
Arab, some purport to be Syrian) who have had a continuous presence
in the area since mohammed's time, anyhow.
> When? There was an influx of Arab immigrants when the Jewish
> agricultural settlements became viable, and a far greater
> Arab influx under the British Mandate.
>
I agree, and that is what my point was and is. There weren't many
Arab's in the area during the time prior to the 1900's. The Turkish
gov't has on their site census's taken rather sporadically over the
years of their takeover of the Moslem occupied territories (including
Egypt, S.A. (they held Mecca).
As far as Arab land owners, many of them never even so much as
ventured
to their so-called land for generations, having no desire to leave
S.A.
(or where-ever), and were content to have peasants? manage the land.
This,
some writers in the 1800's criticize, is why so many claim the land
was desolate, barren, inhospitable, undesirable and contemptible.
> >The Arab countries have been faithful in that order...for they refuse
> >to receive any Arab Palestinian to live as citizens in the native
> >homeland.
>
> That's a fact. Even before Iraq's invasion, Kuwait denied
> citizenship rights to all Palestinians living there, even
> those who had been born there, and following Kuwait's
> reassumption of sovereignty, there were numerous reports of
> human rights violations and abuse of Palestinians, prior to
> their expulsion, for their support of Saddam and collaboration
> with his army. Then there's Black September in Jordan, and
> that's not a reference to the Pallie terrorist group.
>
I know.
> >Also, writer didn't acknowledge that Trans-Jordan was siezed from
> >Israel at the demands of the Arabs for the creation of a homeland for
> >the so-called displaced Arabs/Palestinians. Thus Jordan was created
> >specifically for that purpose.
>
> The British created the emirate of Transjordan in 1923 from appx
> 77% of Palestine and gave it to the Hashimi of Arabia as a reward
> for their services to the Allies during WWI.
>
The decree came from Churchill in 1921 when he renigged on the
previous agreement of the British gov't and made it a violation for
any Jew to
dwell in the designated land, and was implemented in 1923, but
disputed
(rightly so) and was not recognized as being legit. You probably know,
that Hussein of Jordan (Abdullah's grandfather) was a special envoy to
Hitler).
shalom,
john
Tam
> The term used was, I believe, " al-Arad al-Muqaddash", or the Holy Land.
> In either case, that occurred in the 7thC, prior to the conquest of
> the land by Seljuks, then by European Crusaders,
> then Egyptians, Ottomans, and the British.
This raises an important point. One must accept that Believing
Muslims, Islamists and political Islam (and on its side political
Judaism of Meyer Kahane's kind) will give short shrift to competing
religious doctrinal justifications for claims of title to land. As was
implied in your posting, many such claims are myths created long after
the "event" they purport to memorialise. (And what of the myth that
the Koran is ever unchanged from when Allah inspired Mohammed? What of
those fragments? What is the Koran?
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99jan/koran.htm )
But here's my question for the day: if under international law one
cannot get good title to land by conquest (true), well, virtually all
the world's land was taken by conquest ("finding" disregarded the
presence of indigenous peoples, autochtones; and we don't know what
fighting they engaged in among themselves over land). Today, we
recognise title to seized land on the basis of pragmatism and
expedience: Northern Ireland, Cyprus, Israel-Palestine, the Balkans:
these are political hot spots.
And if, once Muslim, land can never revert (the penalty for apostasy
is death; and once converted, one is Mulsim unto the last generation)
what of Iberia and Southern France, and parts of the Austro-Hungarian
Empire?
As Ernest Gellner (and Benedict Anderson) more or less said,
nationailsm exists by virtue of the myths it creates.
Have a nice day.
Deborah Sharavi
<<In either case, that occurred in the 7thC, prior to the conquest of
<<the land by Seljuks, then by European Crusaders,
<<then Egyptians, Ottomans, and the British.
tamsu...@yahoo.ca (Tam) wrote in message news:<645cf12c.03121...@posting.google.com<...
<This raises an important point. One must accept that Believing
<Muslims, Islamists and political Islam (and on its side political
<Judaism of Meyer Kahane's kind)
What "political Judaism of Meyer Kahane"?
<will give short shrift to competing
<religious doctrinal justifications for claims of title to land. As was
<implied in your posting, many such claims are myths created long after
<the "event" they purport to memorialise. (And what of the myth that
<the Koran is ever unchanged from when Allah inspired Mohammed? What of
<those fragments? What is the Koran?
<http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99jan/koran.htm )
Already posted that.
<But here's my question for the day: if under international law one
<cannot get good title to land by conquest (true), well, virtually all
<the world's land was taken by conquest ("finding" disregarded the
<presence of indigenous peoples, autochtones; and we don't know what
<fighting they engaged in among themselves over land). Today, we
<recognise title to seized land on the basis of pragmatism and
<expedience: Northern Ireland, Cyprus, Israel-Palestine, the Balkans:
<these are political hot spots.
If you are going to create an entity such as "Israel-Palestine", you
should also refer to the entity "Jordan-Palestine", since Jordan
comprises much more of former British Palestine than Israel.
<And if, once Muslim, land can never revert (the penalty for apostasy
<is death; and once converted, one is Mulsim unto the last generation)
<what of Iberia and Southern France, and parts of the Austro-Hungarian
<Empire?
According to Islamic doctrine, the entire earth is Muslim land,
although the land of Israel was given by Allah specifically to
the sons of Israel.
<As Ernest Gellner (and Benedict Anderson) more or less said,
<nationailsm exists by virtue of the myths it creates.
<Have a nice day.
Whatever.
Deborah
Tam
> Whatever.
That pretty much sums up your contribution, and puts an end to the
dialog. Have fun taling to yourself and, perhaps, those who mimic you.
Deborah Sharavi
Yo.
<<<Jews far out numbered the Arabs in Jerusalem and elsewhere
<<<as well.
<<Only in Jerusalem. Jews outnumbered Arabs in Zefat and
<<Tiberias, but that was before the earthquake of 1838 and
<<the subsequent droughts and locust infestations brought
<<down the population for the entire region.
<I disagree, if you are stating that Tiberias and Zefat are the only
<communities that were Jewish. There were several communites that
<were soley Jewish, especially around Lake Kinneret.
Naturally Tiberias and Zefat weren't the only Jewish communities
in the middle to late 19thC, but neither were solely Jewish. Are
you aware of any solely Jewish communities in Israel from that
time to the (1st) establishment of Petach Tikva and Mikvah
Israel? I'm not.
<my statemant was not to construe that Jews out-numbered any/all
<people, but according to various sources (both Israeli, and other
<gov'ts)
<the modern rewriting that Jews were only in Jerusalem is totally
<bogus.
OK, I concur that any statement that Jews were only in J'lem
in the 19thC is nonsense, and easily disproven by the facts.
<In fact, there are legitmate claims that there has been a continous
<Jewish presence in the land in at least one community from the time
<of the first Temple Period, and at least two other communities from
<the
<2nd Temple (Prof. Yohanan Aharoni, and Prof. Michael Avi-Yonah; see
<also Carta's Guide to Israel).
Pequi'in? That's the only one I'm aware of. What's the other
one?
<<The Arab population of Ottoman Palestine (that is, Israel
<<and the northern Negev, western Jordan, SW Syria, and
<<southern Lebanon) were predominantly Muslim. Xians were
<<compacted into specific areas, as were Jews.
<Muslim - Turks, not Arab in the early 1900's, and then predominately
<soldiers who ought not to have been counted in census.
<I was talking about the land purchases predominately by European
<churches which amassed huge land area. Many of them, as Jews,
<have had to purchase the same land several times, even from the
<Ottoman's.
The local governors of the various sanajek issued restrictions
on land purchase by European Jews, but they tended to get
around them via the local kamikams, or regional governors,
though at exhorbitant costs. Another problem was buying
the land, then Arabs moving in and squatting on it and having
to pay court costs in evicting them--another source of income
for the local governors. Effectively, as Manya Shochat wrote,
it meant, as you state, purchasing the land twice.
<There was an interesting story in the Jerusalem Post, written by
<one of the so-called christian patriarch's on this very subject.
<The JPost (in an editor's note) claim that they are one of the
<largest land-owners in Israel.
<He bitterly complained that they have had to purchase the same land
<from the Moslems and Arabs time after time down over the centuries,
<and that now the PLO maffia/thugs/gov't were demanding money in order
<for them to retain it. His main question, how many times do we have
<to purchase the same land? And then goes into a little detail.
Sounds familiar.
<<<You also fail to mention that the Arabs were hire as mercenaries to
<<<invade and kill off the inhabitants of the land (including Europeans
<<<and Americans) in order to drive the Ottmans out. This amounts to
<<<blood-money.
<<When were Arabs hired to do that? Nomadic Arab raiders
<<didn't distinguish whom they robbed from, and were equal-
<<opportunity pains in the ass to Jews and Arabs and everyone
<<else who didn't guard his lands.
<<<There we see the big influx of Arabs into the region, many who were
<<<forced by their clerics and or gov't to go and fight at a point of the
<<<sword and informed they would not be premitted to return, and the
<<<displacement of Syrians (non-Arab), Lebanese and Jews, among others.
<See presidential papers of Woodrow Wilson, Yale University (on-line),
<where he finds the axis powers practice of hiring mercanaries
<condemnable, and morally reprehensible.
That's during WWI, not the 19thC.
<Not to be confused with the nomadic people (who may or may not be
<Arab, some purport to be Syrian) who have had a continuous presence
<in the area since mohammed's time, anyhow.
There are certainly Arabs who have had a continuous presence
since Muhammad's time, but they tend to be few and far between,
especially in The Holy Land. Fex, the Khalidis claim to have
been a J'lem family since the time of Omar. Where is their
evidence? Even their family cemetary in J'lem doesn't go
back that far.
<<When? There was an influx of Arab immigrants when the Jewish
<<agricultural settlements became viable, and a far greater
<<Arab influx under the British Mandate.
<I agree, and that is what my point was and is. There weren't many
<Arab's in the area during the time prior to the 1900's. The Turkish
<gov't has on their site census's taken rather sporadically over the
<years of their takeover of the Moslem occupied territories (including
<Egypt, S.A. (they held Mecca).
In addition, the Ottomans, like the British after them, categorized
their census according to religions, i.e., who was Muslim, who was
Xian, who was Jewish, and who was "other".
<As far as Arab land owners, many of them never even so much as
<ventured
<to their so-called land for generations, having no desire to leave
<S.A.
<(or where-ever), and were content to have peasants? manage the land.
That is a fact, although said Arab effendi landowners tended to
live chiefly in Beirut and Cairo, in baronial comfort.
<This,
<some writers in the 1800's criticize, is why so many claim the land
<was desolate, barren, inhospitable, undesirable and contemptible.
There are several reasons for the barrenness of the land: a series
of natural disasters such as earthquakes, droughts, locusts, and
the manmade upheaval of the Ottoman Empire tottering to its
end.
<<<The Arab countries have been faithful in that order...for they refuse
<<<to receive any Arab Palestinian to live as citizens in the native
<<<homeland.
<<That's a fact. Even before Iraq's invasion, Kuwait denied
<<citizenship rights to all Palestinians living there, even
<<those who had been born there, and following Kuwait's
<<reassumption of sovereignty, there were numerous reports of
<<human rights violations and abuse of Palestinians, prior to
<<their expulsion, for their support of Saddam and collaboration
<<with his army. Then there's Black September in Jordan, and
<<that's not a reference to the Pallie terrorist group.
<I know.
It's surprising how many don't.
<<The British created the emirate of Transjordan in 1923 from appx
<<77% of Palestine and gave it to the Hashimi of Arabia as a reward
<<for their services to the Allies during WWI.
<The decree came from Churchill in 1921 when he renigged on the
<previous agreement of the British gov't and made it a violation for
<any Jew to
<dwell in the designated land, and was implemented in 1923, but
<disputed
<(rightly so) and was not recognized as being legit. You probably know,
<that Hussein of Jordan (Abdullah's grandfather) was a special envoy to
<Hitler).
Huh? He died in Amman in 1931.
<shalom,
<
<john
Chag sameach,
Deborah