Book Review: "The Invention of the Jewish People"
DoD
When it comes to undermining the legitimacy of the Jewish state, there
is no thesis too absurd to be published. In fact, one can assume that
any book attacking the idea of Jewish nationalism will gain a
following (and even garner awards), regardless of how preposterous the
underlying thesis.
Such is the case with "The Invention of the Jewish People," a book by
Shlomo Sand who teaches French history at Tel Aviv University. The
thesis: There is no such thing as a Jewish people; today's Jews have
no connection to biblical Israelites or to Jews who inhabited Israel
during the time of the Second Temple; rather, they are descended from
disparate groups of people who converted to Judaism and had no ties to
the land of Israel. Conversely, there was no exile of Jews from the
land of Israel; most Jews remained in the land, converted to Islam and
were the progenitors of present-day Palestinians.
Sand acknowledges his mission is to prove invalid the foundation of
Zionism – the idea of a Jewish state built on a Jewish ancestral
homeland — and to promote instead the idea of a single non-Jewish
state of Arabs and Jews. His qualifications for this project lie – not
in Jewish history scholarship (his field is French nationalism and
cinema), but – in his communist, anti-nationalist and anti-Zionist
background and politics (which he proudly mentions in the book's
preface). His thesis whereby Arabs – and not Jews– are the rightful
inheritors of the land provides the support for his political
argument.
What about the earlier historical writings that negate his theories?
Sand discards them as the fabrications of 19th and 20th century Jewish
historians who fabricated "myths" and constructed "memories" of Jewish
nationhood. Moreover, he contends the invented version of events was
kept alive in Jewish history departments throughout Israel, the U.S.
and Europe by Zionists who "created an iron-jawed vise that prevented
any deviation from the dominant narrative."
The author does not pretend to reveal any new primary source material.
His conceit is that he is keener and more honest than the "authorized"
experts in Jewish history whom he disparages, and that he, by
contrast, is uncovering "surprising connections" and offering
"unexpected insights."
Ironically, Sand draws not only upon the revisionist theories of Bible
critics, journalists, philosophers and archeologists who share his
perspective, but upon the work of the very same historians whom he
dismisses – cherry-picking the facts he favors and ridiculing the
conclusions that don't meet his needs.
To support his interpretation of events, Sand sets up straw man
arguments. For example, he goes to great lengths to ‘prove' that the
Romans did not deport the entire Jewish population following the
destruction of the Second Temple. By ‘uncovering' the obvious, Sand
believes he is demolishing "the myth of uprooting and exile" which, he
explains, "was essential for the construction of a long-term memory
wherein an imaginary, exiled people-race could be described as the
direct descendants of the former ‘people of the Bible'."
But, of course, no serious history of the Jewish people suggests that
the entire population of Judea was expelled in one fell swoop. On the
contrary, Jewish historians have always taught that while the Romans
ended Jewish autonomy in the land and destroyed the Second Temple
which was at the core of Jewish life, Jews remained in the land,
established a Sanhedrin, and compiled the Mishnah and Talmud.
Sand attempts to dismiss evidence that might negate his theory of no
exile: He alleges that Flavius Josephus, the eyewitness historian who
documented the Roman conquest of Israel "tended to exaggerate his
numbers" and his description of a Jewish exile can therefore not be
trusted. He claims that the Arch of Titus in Rome – built shortly
after Titus' death in 81 CE to depict the triumphal march to Rome with
treasures from the destroyed Jewish Temple – "shows Roman soldiers
carrying the plundered Temple candelabra – not...Judean captives
carrying it on their way to exile." He argues that there is no Roman
documentation that mentions "a deportation from Judea." He refers to
the Roman expulsion of Jews from the Roman city of Aelia Capitolina,
built on the ruins of Jerusalem in 135 CE, (and which lasted some two
hundred years) as a temporary "restriction" which he claims does not
constitute proof of "Judean masses" being exiled at that time.
Indeed, even if all those assertions were true – and there is little
reason to believe they are– it is immaterial whether or not Josephus'
overall numbers were exaggerated, whether those carrying the Temple's
treasures were captives or soldiers, or whether Judean masses were
forcibly deported at any single point in time. Sand is unable to
dispute the fact that the destruction of the Temple, loss of Jewish
sovereignty, banishment of Jews from Jerusalem, and attempt by the
Romans to erase the country's Jewish identity – even changing its name
to Provincia Syria Palestina – was a pivotal and traumatic point in
the history of the Jews which resulted in the scattering of Jews
throughout the Diaspora for a second time, the first exile having been
caused by Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar in 586 BCE.
That there were Jews who continued to live in the land of Israel
subject to Roman rule,or that a community of religious scholars
flourished for a time in the Galilee – facts that no Jewish historian
disputes– emphasizes the willingness of Jews to cling to their
homeland despite persecution and demonstrates the centrality of the
Land of Israel to Jewish identity. It does not take away from the fact
that in the wake of the Roman defeat, Jews were powerless and
oppressed in their own country. Whether through flight, expulsion,
emigration, subjugation or a combination of these factors, the Jews
viewed themselves as a nation exiled from their homeland – a
perception that permeated the Jewish canon, prayers, religious
practice, customs and Messianic beliefs.
But if Sand rejects the notion of a Jewish nation, he must also find a
way to discount its national consciousness and belief system. He
therefore dismisses these as "implanted memories," contending that the
notion of a Jewish exile as divine retribution and "the myth of the
Wandering Jew" was only "adopted" from a "popular Christian myth" at a
later time – around the fourth century CE.
He is wrong. This theme long predates the birth of Christianity. The
Book of Jeremiah, written between 627-586 BCE during the period of the
Babylonian exile, recounts Jeremiah's prophecies to Judeans warning
them of impending destruction due to their idolatrous ways, and the
Book of Lamentations written shortly after the exile, describes the
punishment imposed by God. Both books (which are included in the
Tanakh, or Hebrew Bible) establish the theme of the Jewish nation's
dispersion from Israel in punishment for its sins, as well as the
prophecy of salvation, restoration and return to the land. For
example:
Jerusalem sinned grievously, therefore she became a wanderer
(Lamentations, Ch. 1, Verse 8)
Thus saith the Lord: Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes
from tears; for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the Lord; and they
shall come back from the land of the enemy. And there is hope for thy
future, saith the Lord; and thy children shall return to their own
border. (Jeremiah, Ch. 31, Verses 15-16)
This theme also appears in daily Jewish prayers, established in the
aftermath of the destruction of the Second Temple; which lament the
distancing of the nation from its land and include multiple
supplications for the Jewish salvation and restoration in the land of
Israel. The ninth day of the Hebrew month of Av, was first established
to commemorate the Babylonian destruction of the Jewish Temple, then
the Roman destruction of the Second Temple which was destroyed on the
same date and has become a collective day of mourning for multiple
adversities that have befallen the Jewish people over time. The Jewish
wedding ceremony concludes with the chanting of the biblical phrase,
"If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget its cunning,"
and the breaking of a glass by the groom to commemorate the
destruction of the Temples. Yom Kippur services and the Passover Seder
conclude each year with the phrase "Next Year in Jerusalem." These
prayers and rituals have remained a part of Jewish life for over two
thousand years.
Sand is unable to adequately explain away this longstanding belief in
a common heritage, or the writings, prayers, practices,, customs and
rituals which form the essence of a Jewish national consciousness. He
feebly attempts to dismiss them as inconsequential, religious
practices and the bible as a "marginal" book of fairy tales. But by
pretending that a true national consciousness arose only as a result
of recent historians who "invented" the concept of a Jewish people,
Sand essentially ignores everything that Jews believed in before that.
It is just such a longstanding, shared consciousness (even among those
who are not religiously observant) that forms the core of nationhood.
The very fact that for thousands of years, Jews shared the same bonds
to the land of Israel and regarded themselves — and others regarded
them — as a people, itself invalidates Sand's contentions to the
contrary. Unable to dismiss this salient fact, Sand involves himself
with irrelevant, meaningless arguments, however false.
In another such example, Sand argues that today's Jews are descended
entirely from converts to Judaism — the Ashkenazi Jews from Khazars, a
nomadic Turkic tribe, and the Sephardi Jews from Berbers, Himyarites,
and other groups of converts.
While there is no scholar who argues that Jewish lineage has been
racially pure since biblical times or hides the fact that religious
converts to Judaism from locations outside Israel have contributed to
the Jewish gene pool, recent genetic studies demonstrate that Jews
from diverse backgrounds around the world show genetic similarity not
only with each other but with others from the Middle East.
Some of the best-known studies have compared the DNA of self-reported
Cohanim (members of the Jewish patrilineal priestly line) from diverse
backgrounds (both Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi) with cohorts of non-
Jewish males from the same areas. The results reveal a remarkable
similarity in the DNA sequence patterns of the Cohanim (who share what
is termed the Cohen Modal Haplotype) across different continents but
not shared by non-Jewish males from the same geographic locations,
suggesting a shared a common origin in the Middle East well before the
dispersion of Jews into separate communities.
Unequipped to dispute the scientific studies that disprove his theory,
Sand rejects them out of hand, ridicules the investigators with
sarcastic, ad hominem attacks, and even resorts to using anti-Semitic
stereotypes. For example he writes:
The gates of Western canonical science–mainly in the United States–
opened to the industrious Israeli researchers, who regularly blended
historical mythologies and sociological assumptions with dubious and
scanty genetic findings.
And:
The new paper...showed the sly Y-chromosome had fooled its
inexperienced investigators. But never fear, the updated genetic
picture still indicated that the Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews were
related....
And, perhaps most disturbingly:
Israeli researchers received generous funds from government and
private foundations, and the scientific results soon followed.
Here Sand introduces an anti-Semitic stereotype of Jewish money buying
results.
In the one instance where Sand actually ventures to dispute the
science, he reveals just how out of his depth he is:
The amusing aspect of this story is that the ‘priestly gene' could
just as easily be a ‘non-Jewish gene.' Judaism is inherited from the
mother, so it would not be far-fetched to assume that...a good many,
non-believing cohanim have married ‘gentile' women. These men may well
have fathered ‘non-Jewish' offspring, who...would bear the ‘genetic
seal' of the cohanim. But Jewish scientists are not expected to
consider such minor details...
Cohanim are descended in a patrilineal fashion, so of what relevance
is maternally inherited Judaism here? Absolutely none. Even accepting
that a certain number of non-Jews are descended from Jewish Cohanim,
would it disprove that Cohanim have a Jewish common ancestry going
back thousands of years? Of course not. In fact, the number of non-
Jews who share the specific genetic pattern of Cohanim is
insignificant, as evidenced by its absence in the large cohorts of non-
Jewish men from the same areas who served as the control groups in
these studies.
In other words, this is yet another example of Sand's irrelevant
argumentation to distract his readers from the obvious defects of his
thesis. Indeed, the defects are only underscored by his illogic, but
this seems to be of no matter to the book's admirers.
The book was originally published in 2008 in Hebrew as "Eikh u-matai
humtza ha-am ha-yehudi?" (How and when was the Jewish people
invented?), and in French as "Comment le peuple juif fut
inventé" ("How the Jewish people was invented"). It won France's 2009
Prix Aujourd'hui.. The English edition, "The Invention of the Jewish
People" was published in October 2009 by Verso Books which claims to
be "the largest radical publisher in the English-language world." The
book bears the accolades of Tony Judt, a European history professor
who advocates the dismantlement of Israel as a Jewish state, and Tom
Segev, an Israeli revisionist historian and Ha'aretz journalist whose
career has been dedicated to demonizing his own country.
That this book was published in several languages, received a French
literary award and continues to garner high praise in certain circles,
however, is certainly not evidence of its historical or scientific
merit. On the contrary: It merely demonstrates that on certain topics,
politics trumps scholarship.
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1776
Al Smith
>
> When it comes to undermining the legitimacy of the Jewish state, there
> is no thesis too absurd to be published. In fact, one can assume that
> any book attacking the idea of Jewish nationalism will gain a
> following (and even garner awards), regardless of how preposterous the
> underlying thesis.
<snip>
This review is just a smear piece. Disregard.
-Al-
DoD
> DoD wrote:
>
> > When it comes to undermining the legitimacy of the Jewish state, there
> > is no thesis too absurd to be published. In fact, one can assume that
> > any book attacking the idea of Jewish nationalism will gain a
> > following (and even garner awards), regardless of how preposterous the
> > underlying thesis.
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1776
> This review is just a smear piece. Disregard.
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1776
You know it is accurate when al decides to appear and make stupid
comments.
coaste...@yahoo.com
> On Jan 6, 10:15 pm, Al Smith <inva...@address.com> wrote:
>
> > DoD wrote:
>
> > > When it comes to undermining the legitimacy of the Jewish state, there
> > > is no thesis too absurd to be published. In fact, one can assume that
> > > any book attacking the idea of Jewish nationalism will gain a
> > > following (and even garner awards), regardless of how preposterous the
> > > underlying thesis.
>
> http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1776
>
> > This review is just a smear piece. Disregard.
It certainly is.
>
> http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1776
>
> You know it is accurate when al decides to appear and make stupid
> comments.
This author is an American Israel lobby hatchet man. Why choose him
over Israel's Haaretz:
Last update - 00:00 27/11/2009
Shlomo Sand's 'The Invention of the Jewish People' is a success for
Israel
By Carlo Strenger
Some may be surprised to find that Sand's goal is to preserve Israel
as a democracy with a Jewish character.
For a number of days now, the NYT review of Shlomo Sand's The
Invention of the Jewish People, which has recently been published in
an English translation, has been on the list of 'most emailed
articles' - a remarkable feat for a book review. As the reviewer
points out, the hype around the book was mostly generated by some of
Sand's less controversial claims.
Yes, Jewish public consciousness continues to be formed by the idea
that Jews were exiled from Israel by the Romans, whereas the truth is
that close to two million Jews continued to live here until the fall
of the Roman empire. Yes, a large portion of the Roman Empire Jews
became Jewish by conversion, and hence most Jews today are unlikely to
be descendants of Jews who lived here two thousand years ago. But, as
Sand repeatedly points out, none of this is disputed by historians.
Yes, the Zionist narrative has created a semblance of continuity
between the Jews living in Israel two thousand years ago and modern
Jews, much more than actually exists. But, as Sand shows, all modern
nation states have created narratives aimed at legitimizing cultural,
linguistic and political hegemony of the dominant group. In this
respect Israel is not different from Germany, Italy or Indonesia.
Sand's claim is that Israel doesn't need to shroud itself in myth for
its continued existence, and this, in my view, is the book's most
important merit, and should come as a relief rather than be seen as an
attack on Israel.
Advertisement
Sand's book is not a pure work of history. In fact, it has a clearly
stated political agenda. From all the sound and the fury you might
think that his agenda is to expel all Jews from Israel, or to abolish
the Jewish state. It might come as a surprise to some who have not
read the book that Sand's goal is to preserve Israel as a democracy
with a Jewish character based on a Jewish majority.
Sand points out that modern democracies fall into two categories that
emerged in modern Europe: East of the Rhein, the dominant model was
that of ethnocracies: countries that were supposed to have a special
attachment to a particular ethnos. West of the Rhein the model of pure
liberal democracies prevailed: for them the sovereign is simply the
totality of its citizens. The clearest case of this model is, of
course, the U.S. No one could conceivably argue that the Caucasian
conquerors of America had some special historical relation to the
land. The U.S. continued to be an immigrant country, and every new
citizen had the same right, whatever his or her provenance.
Sand claims that most of Israel's present ills stem from its being an
ethnocracy that gives Jews special privileges. This keeps raising the
question 'who is a Jew', and makes it very difficult for the large
minority of Israeli Arabs to feel that they have equal rights.
Sand's book came out early in 2008, too early to address one of the
utter perversions that the current state of affairs presents:
Notoriously, Israel's Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman's platform
would require every citizen in Israel to take a loyalty oath to the
Jewish state. Most commentators saw this as an attempt to delegitimize
Israel's Arabs - which was certainly true. But they forgot that most
of Lieberman's voters are from the former Soviet bloc, many of whom
are not recognized as Jews by the Rabbinate. His move was supposed to
help them by substituting Jewish ancestry or orthodox conversion with
loyalty to the state as their stamp of legitimacy.
Lieberman's outlandish and totalitarian proposal would have been
unnecessary if Israel was a pure liberal democracy: once immigrants
receive citizenship, they would not have to worry about their status
and legitimacy. However, as Sand points out, Ben-Gurion's historical
compromise with the orthodox establishment created an anomaly unique
in advanced democracies: in Israel the state actually tells Jews who
we can marry and how.
One of the reasons for all these maneuvers is, of course, Hok
Hashevut, the law of return, which allows Jews from anywhere to
receive automatic Israeli citizenship. Sand argues that this law must
be repealed. By turning Israel into a liberal democracy, all Israeli
citizens at this point in history, never mind their ethnic provenance
or religion, would be its sovereign. Given Israel's current
demography, this would guarantee Jewish hegemony without making
recourse to non-democratic means ranging from the involvement of the
Rabbinate in citizens' private lives to Lieberman's loyalty oath. Sand
also argues that abolishing Hok Hashevut is necessary in preventing
Palestinians from claiming their Right of Return, as nobody would,
from that moment onwards, have an automatic right to citizenship.
I disagree with this aspect of Sand's conclusion: I think that Hok
Hashevut has little weight in the Palestinians' accepting or rejecting
the existence of Israel. I also think that Sand's criticism of the
efforts of legal scholars like Amnon Rubinstein to work out a liberal
platform that would safeguard Hok Hashevut are mostly not convincing,
and he doesn't mention law professor Ruth Gavison's important work in
this context. This law is one of Israel's raisons d'etre, and should
be maintained, even though some of its specifics need to be reworked
to make sure that it is not abused for political and other purposes.
Disagreements aside, I think that Shlomo Sand's questions about how
Israel's democracy can be liberalized and stabilized are thought-
provoking and deserve serious discussion. But most of all, the book's
success in Israel (it was on the bestseller list for nineteen weeks)
is a success for Israel. The fact that very basic questions about
Israel's foundations can be discussed trenchantly shows that Israel is
a vibrant, if at times flawed, democracy. It will resist all attempts
by politicians like Lieberman to prescribe its citizens what to think
or feel.
DoD
wrote:
> On Jan 6, 11:38 pm, DoD <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 6, 10:15 pm, Al Smith <inva...@address.com> wrote:
>
> > > DoD wrote:
>
> > > > When it comes to undermining the legitimacy of the Jewish state, there
> > > > is no thesis too absurd to be published. In fact, one can assume that
> > > > any book attacking the idea of Jewish nationalism will gain a
> > > > following (and even garner awards), regardless of how preposterous the
> > > > underlying thesis.
>
> >http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1776
>
> > > This review is just a smear piece. Disregard.
>
> It certainly is.
Tweedle dee makes stupid comment, so not to be outdone, tweedle dumb
shows up
to make an even bigger ass out of himself.....
There certainly is no end to the juvenileness of the antisemite....
<sigh>
mirjam
abducted from some Royal nursery , she had those fantastic interesting
stories about her so called nanies , her parents etc,,,,,she kept
telling them. When we left high school she still believed and started
writing a book about it ,, later she became ill . and later was
hospitalized .
I know a man who believes he is the incarnation of some God ,,,
Dr Zand, wrote a Hypothetical book , Usinf some true facts and Many
wrong facts .
mirjam
DoD
> When we were in 3rd grade , we had a girl who believed she was
> abducted from some Royal nursery , she had those fantastic interesting
> stories about her so called nanies , her parents etc,,,,,she kept
> telling them.
That is prolly not unusual.
> When we left high school she still believed and started
> writing a book about it ,, later she became ill . and later was
> hospitalized .
In all that time, nobody got worried that her condition hadn't
changed and got her help?
> I know a man who believes he is the incarnation of some God ,,,
I know a former lawyer from Michigan who posts to usenet like he
is an educated person. <g>
> Dr Zand, wrote a Hypothetical book , Usinf some true facts and Many
> wrong facts .
I haven't looked into Sand enough to figure out if he is a **true**
antisemite, or
someone who is looking for a big paycheck and has no morals about
using
antisemitic themes... I think there is a difference there...even if it
tends to be sublime..
Since you give weather reports sometimes, I will do the same... We
just got hit with
5 inches of snow and it is going to be below 0 degrees in
temperatures including -20 below in
wind chill for the next few days.... Cold enough for a
http://www.acbaptist.org/na/polarbear.jpg
Yes?
coaste...@yahoo.com
How do you know that Mirjam?
dsharavi
Excellent article. One small footnote: Shlomo Sand doesn't teach
French history, per se: he teaches modern French intellectual history,
along with film history.
Deborah
dsha...@yahoo.com
> > > > > When it comes to undermining the legitimacy of the Jewish state, there
> > > > > is no thesis too absurd to be published. In fact, one can assume that
> > > > > any book attacking the idea of Jewish nationalism will gain a
> > > > > following (and even garner awards), regardless of how preposterous the
> > > > > underlying thesis.
> > >http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1776
> > > On Jan 6, 10:15 pm, Al Smith <inva...@address.com> wrote:
> > > > This review is just a smear piece. Disregard.
> On Jan 6, 11:02 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
lol
Birdbrains of a feather.....but you left out H's more amusing
comments:
>>This author is an American Israel lobby hatchet man.
That's H's rebuttal style to facts: namecalling.
But what gives H the idea that Ricki Hollander of CAMERA is a MAN?
> Why choose him
H would rather you rely unquestioningly on the blige yarked up by an
antisemitic bebopper/punk rocking blogster, like H does.
BTW, have you ever heard of a man named RICKI?
Deborah
dsha...@yahoo.com
wrote:
Several reasons:
1) She read the book in the original Hebrew
2) You didn't read the book in the original Hebrew or its English
translation
3) She knows more than you about Jews, Judaism, and Israel
Next question.
Deborah
DoD
three is not hard to accomplish considering h goes out of his way
to make sure he doesn't know the facts about Jews....
That is pretty easy to accomplish with an asshole that puts his head
in the sand 24x7.
DoD
> > > > > DoD wrote:
> > > > > > When it comes to undermining the legitimacy of the Jewish state, there
> > > > > > is no thesis too absurd to be published. In fact, one can assume that
> > > > > > any book attacking the idea of Jewish nationalism will gain a
> > > > > > following (and even garner awards), regardless of how preposterous the
> > > > > > underlying thesis.
> > > >http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1776
> > > > On Jan 6, 10:15 pm, Al Smith <inva...@address.com> wrote:
> > > > > This review is just a smear piece. Disregard.
> > On Jan 6, 11:02 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> > > It certainly is.
>
> > Tweedle dee makes stupid comment, so not to be outdone, tweedle dumb
> > shows up to make an even bigger ass out of himself.....
>
> lol
> Birdbrains of a feather.....but you left out H's more amusing
> comments:
It is easy to do, because H is not amusing to me... Think about it
Deb.. I am a Gentile and have to live with this fuckhead claiming
that he is a Gentile intellectual... That doesn't sit well with people
that
actually think.
> >>This author is an American Israel lobby hatchet man.
>
> That's H's rebuttal style to facts: namecalling.
>
> But what gives H the idea that Ricki Hollander of CAMERA is a MAN?
What gives H any ideas? Antisemitic sources of course.
> > Why choose him
>
> H would rather you rely unquestioningly on the blige yarked up by an
> antisemitic bebopper/punk rocking blogster, like H does.
>
> BTW, have you ever heard of a man named RICKI?
I have never heard of a man named Hunter...
Tilly
news:qdd1n.60528$PH1.45998@edtnps82...
The genetics prove he is wrong.
New genetic study shows that most Ashkenazim are Middle Eastern-
European hybrids whose closest genetic cousins are Palestinians.
Genetic evidence in the last several years has shown that most Ashkenazic
Jews
are Middle Eastern-European hybrids. They are genetically descendent from
the people of the Middle East.
But a new study hints that there was a good bit of fooling around in
southern Europe in the old days. Those Italian girls! And, guess who are
their closest genetic cousins? Palestinians.
Whether Jews are a people, a religion, a tribe, has long been a matter of
argument.One result, since the Holocaust, is the belief that the Jews were
not really a people, just a religion. It also was speculated that most Jews
may be descendants of converts like the Khazars in the Caucuses and really
share very little historically.
See Arthur Koestler. But DNA evidence, going back almost a generation has
disproven that notion. A new study confirms that. Ashkenazim around the word
are mostly more alike among themselves then they are with non-Jews. Most can
trace their ancestry back to what is now Israel and the surrounding areas.
Scientists in Israel and the U.S., using genetic markers called genomic
microsatellites studied 78 individuals from four Jewish groups around the
world and compared them to 321 individuals from 12 non-Jewish populations.
They found:
Jewish populations showed a high level of genetic similarity to each
other, clustering together in several types of analysis of population
structure. Further, Bayesian clustering, neighbor-joining trees, and
multidimensional scaling place the Jewish populations as intermediate
between the non-Jewish Middle Eastern and European populations.
These results support the view that the Jewish populations largely
share a common Middle Eastern ancestry and that over their history they
have undergone varying degrees of admixture with non-Jewish populations of
European descent.
In other words, a shared ancestry. A peoplehood.
But here were two surprises in the study, published in BMC Genetics. One,
although most Ashkenazim come from the northern part of Europe, most of the
European genes come from southern Europe--Italy, Greece, Sardinia. One guess
is that most of the intermarriages and assimilation happened after the Jews
dispersed from the Middle East during the years of the Roman Empire, at
least more so than in later years when they wound up in Germany and Poland
during the Middle Ages. Then, they generally were sequestered in ghettos and
in villages or parts of cities and had limited interaction with surrounding
populations until the beginning of the 19th century.
And the second surprise is that the group of people closest genetically to
the Jews are Palestinians. Both come from the Levant area and Mesopotamia.
That could be that many Palestinians are likely of original Jewish or
Samaritan origin.
Male lineages: Y chromosomal DNA
A study of haplotypes of the Y chromosome, published in 2000, addressed the
paternal origins of Ashkenazi Jews. Hammer et al. found that the Y
chromosome of some Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews contained mutations that are
also common among Middle Eastern peoples, but uncommon in the general
European population. This suggested that the male ancestors of the Ashkenazi
Jews could be traced mostly to the Middle East. The proportion of male
genetic admixture in Ashkenazi Jews amounts to less than 0.5% per generation
over an estimated 80 generations, with "relatively minor contribution of
European Y chromosomes to the Ashkenazim," and a total admixture estimate
"very similar to Motulsky's average estimate of 12.5%." This supported the
finding that "Diaspora Jews from Europe, Northwest Africa, and the Near East
resemble each other more closely than they resemble their non-Jewish
neighbors."
2001 study by Nebel et al. showed that both Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jewish
populations share the same overall paternal Near Eastern ancestries. The
authors also report on Eu 19 chromosomes, which are very frequent in Eastern
Europeans (54%-60%) at elevated frequency (12.7%) in Ashkenazi Jews. They
hypothesized that these chromosomes could reflect low-level gene flow from
surrounding Eastern European populations, or, alternatively, that both the
Ashkenazi Jews with Eu 19, and to a much greater extent Eastern European
populations in general, might partly be descendants of Khazars. Again, this
study suggested a total male admixture estimation that is no larger than
~12.5%
A 2005 study by Nebel et al., based on Y chromosome polymorphic markers,
showed that Ashkenazi Jews are more closely related to other Jewish and
Middle Eastern groups than to their host populations in Europe. However,
11.5% of male Ashkenazim were found to belong to R-M17, the dominant Y
chromosome haplogroup in Eastern Europeans, suggesting possible gene flow.
The authors hypothesized that "R-M17 chromosomes in Ashkenazim may represent
vestiges of the mysterious Khazars". They concluded "However, if the R-M17
chromosomes in Ashkenazi Jews do indeed represent the vestiges of the
mysterious Khazars then, according to our data, this contribution was
limited to to either a single founder or a few closely related men, and does
not exceed ~ 12% of the present-day Ashkenazim.19]
A 2003 study of the Y-chromosome by Behar et al. points to multiple origins
for Ashkenazi Levites, a priestly class who comprise approximately 4% of
Ashkenazi Jews. It found that Haplogroup R1a, uncommon in the Middle East or
among Sephardic Jews, originating in Central Asia and dominant in Eastern
Europe, is present in over 50% of Ashkenazi Levites. While the rest of
Ashkenazi levites' paternal lineage is of Middle Eastern origin. Behar
suggests a founding event, probably involving one or very few European men,
occurring at a time close to the initial formation and settlement of the
Ashkenazi community as a possible explanation. Ashkenazi and Sephardic
Cohanim and Israelites, on the other hand, were found to share the same
genetic signature, originating in the Middle East 2000 years earlier.
Female lineages: Mitochondrial DNA
Before 2006, geneticists largely attributed the genesis of most of the
world's Jewish populations, including Ashkenazi Jews, to founding effects by
males who migrated from the Middle East and "by the women from each local
population whom they took as wives and converted to Judaism." In line with
this model of origin, David Goldstein, now of Duke University, reported in
2002 that, unlike male lineages, the female lineages in Ashkenazi Jewish
communities "did not seem to be Middle Eastern", and that each community had
its own genetic pattern and even that "in some cases the mitochondrial DNA
was closely related to that of the host community." In his view this
suggested "that Jewish men had arrived from the Middle East, taken wives
from the host population and converted them to Judaism, after which there
was no further intermarriage with non-Jews."[
However, a 2006 study by Behar et al.,[1], based on high-resolution analysis
of haplogroup K(mtDNA), suggested that about 40% of the current Ashkenazi
population is descended matrilineally from just four women, or "founder
lineages", that were "likely from a Hebrew/Levantine mtDNA pool" originating
in the Middle East in the first and second centuries CE. Although Haplogroup
K is common throughout western Eurasia, "the observed global pattern of
distribution renders very unlikely the possibility that the four
aforementioned founder lineages entered the Ashkenazi mtDNA pool via gene
flow from a European host population:
"..Both the extent and location of the maternal ancestral deme from which
the Ashkenazi Jewry arose remain obscure. Here, using complete sequences of
the maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), we show that close to
one-half of Ashkenazi Jews, estimated at 8,000,000 people, can be traced
back to only four women carrying distinct mtDNAs that are virtually absent
in other populations, with the important exception of low frequencies among
non-Ashkenazi Jews. We conclude that four founding mtDNAs, likely of Near
Eastern ancestry, underwent major expansion(s) in Europe within the past
millennium.."[
In addition, Behar et al. have suggested that the rest of Ashkenazi mtDNA
is originated from ~150 women, most of those likely of Middle Eastern
origin.[1]
Genome-wide association study
In genetic epidemiology, a genome-wide association study (GWA study, or
GWAS) is an examination of genetic variation across a given genome, designed
to identify genetic associations with observable traits. In human studies,
this might include traits such as blood pressure or weight, or why some
people get a disease or condition.A 2007 study by Bauchet et al. found that
Ashkenazi Jews were most closely clustered with Arabic North African
populations, and in the European structure analysis they share similarities
only with Greeks and Southern Italians, reflecting their East Mediterranean
origins
Tilly
news:0e687fd0-58ea-477c...@34g2000yqp.googlegroups.com...
Zand admits it!! He has an agenda.
mirjam
>
> How do you know that Mirjam?
By reading !!!!Comparing etc.....
mirjam
cornholio
Iconoarse gets spanked again! He must be a masochist or pillow
biter.
Bolt Upright
On Jan 6, 11:38 pm, DoD <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 6, 10:15 pm, Al Smith <inva...@address.com> wrote:
>
> > DoD wrote:
>
> > > When it comes to undermining the legitimacy of the Jewish state, there
> > > is no thesis too absurd to be published. In fact, one can assume that
> > > any book attacking the idea of Jewish nationalism will gain a
> > > following (and even garner awards), regardless of how preposterous the
> > > underlying thesis.
>
>
> > This review is just a smear piece. Disregard.
>It certainly is.
>
Anytime that you see "camera.org" in a URL you know that what follows is
self-serving zionist propaganda. What else can one expect from a Doodoo
post?
>
> You know it is accurate when al decides to appear and make stupid
> comments.
This author is an American Israel lobby hatchet man. Why choose him
over Israel's Haaretz:
> http://www.camera.org/index.asp?
Bolt Upright
"DoD" <danski...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8b758d37-a480-436d...@a6g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
<snip crap>
>http://www.camera.org/index.asp?
Camera.org, Doodoo? CAMERA?
Now, there's a real, genuine, honest, reliable source.
NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Come on, laddie. Even for you, this is way over the top.
coaste...@yahoo.com
> "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
How do you know he admits it, Mirjam?
coaste...@yahoo.com
By reading what, Mirjam?
coaste...@yahoo.com
> "DoD" <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Can't be. Doo Doo has never been near the top.
DoD
wrote:
> On Jan 7, 9:30 pm, "Bolt Upright" <HughGRect...@merde.com> wrote:
>
> > "DoD" <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:8b758d37-a480-436d...@a6g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
>
> > <snip crap>
>
> > >http://www.camera.org/index.asp?
>
> > Camera.org, Doodoo? CAMERA?
> > Now, there's a real, genuine, honest, reliable source.
> > NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > Come on, laddie. Even for you, this is way over the top.
Bird brains like rigatonni can't fact check.... He is obviously
not interested fact.
> Can't be. Doo Doo has never been near the top.
Good job microbrain..... Enjoying your antisemitic brethren?
Gawd you are a pathetic piece of shit....h....
tdny
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/24/books/24jews.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2
Despite the fragmented and incomplete historical record,
experts pretty much agree that some popular beliefs about
Jewish history simply don't hold up:
there was no sudden expulsion of all Jews
from Jerusalem in A.D. 70, for instance.
What's more, modern Jews owe their ancestry as
much to converts from the first millennium and
early Middle Ages as to the Jews of antiquity.
Other theories,
like the notion that many of today's Palestinians can
legitimately claim to be descended from the ancient Jews,
are familiar and serious subjects of study, even if no definitive answer yet
exists.
But while these ideas are commonplace among historians,
they still manage to provoke controversy each time they
surface in public, beyond the scholarly world.
The latest example is the book
"The Invention of the Jewish People,"
which spent months on the best-seller
list in Israel and is now available in English.
Mixing respected scholarship with dubious theories,
the author, Shlomo Sand, a professor at Tel Aviv University,
frames the narrative as a startling exposure of suppressed
historical facts.
The translated version of his polemic has sparked a
new wave of coverage in Britain and has provoked
spirited debates online and in seminar rooms.
Professor Sand, a scholar of modern France, not Jewish history,
candidly states his aim is to undercut the Jews' claims to the
land of Israel by demonstrating that they do not constitute "a people,"
with a shared racial or biological past.
The book has been extravagantly denounced and praised,
often on the basis of whether or not the reader agrees with his politics.
The vehement response to these familiar arguments -
both the reasonable and the outrageous -
highlights the challenge of disentangling historical fact from
the sticky web of religious and political myth and memory.
Consider, for instance,
Professor Sand's assertion that Palestinian Arab villagers
are descended from the original Jewish farmers.
Nearly a century ago,
early Zionists and Arab nationalists touted
the blood relationship as the basis of a potential
alliance in their respective struggles for independence.
Israel's first prime minister, David Ben-Gurion,
and Yitzhak Ben Zvi, Israel's longest-serving president,
made this very argument in a book they wrote together in 1918.
The next year, Emir Feisal,
who organized the Arab revolt against the
Ottoman empire and tried to create a united Arab nation,
signed a cooperation agreement with the Zionist leader
Chaim Weizmann that declared the two were
"mindful of the racial kinship and ancient bonds
existing between the Arabs and the Jewish people."
Both sides later dropped the subject when
they realized it was not furthering their political goals.
(Though no final consensus has emerged on
the ancestral link between Palestinians and Jews,
Harry Ostrer, director of the Human Genetics Program
at New York University Langone Medical Center,
who has been studying the genetic organization of Jews, said,
"The assumption of lineal descent seems reasonable.")
Books challenging biblical and
conventional history continually pop up,
but what distinguishes the dispute
over origins from debates about, say,
the reality of the exodus from Egypt or the historical Jesus,
is that it is so enmeshed in geopolitics.
The Israeli Declaration of Independence states:
"After being forcibly exiled from their Land,
the People kept faith with it throughout their
Dispersion and never ceased to pray and
hope for their return to it."
The idea of unjust exile and rightful return undergirds both the Jews'
and the Palestinians' conviction that each is entitled to the land.
Since Professor Sand's mission is to
discredit Jews' historical claims to the territory,
he is keen to show that their ancestry lines
do not lead back to ancient Palestine.
He resurrects a theory first raised by 19th-century historians,
that the Jews of Central and Eastern Europe, to whom 90 percent
of American Jews trace their roots, are descended from the Khazars,
a Turkic people who apparently converted to Judaism and created
an empire in the Caucasus in the eighth century.
This idea has long intrigued writers and historians. In 1976,
Arthur Koestler wrote "The Thirteenth Tribe" in the
hopes it would combat anti-Semitism; if contemporary
Jews were descended from the Khazars, he argued,
they could not be held responsible for Jesus' Crucifixion.
By now, experts who specialize in the subject have
repeatedly rejected the theory, concluding that the
shards of evidence are inconclusive or misleading,
said Michael Terry, the chief librarian of the Jewish
division of the New York Public Library.
Dr. Ostrer said the genetics also did not support the Khazar theory.
That does not negate that conversion played a critical role in Jewish
history -
a proposition that many find surprising given that today's Jews tend to
discourage conversion and make it a difficult process.
Lawrence H. Schiffman, chairman of the Skirball
department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies at
New York University, said most historians
agree that over a period of centuries,
Middle Eastern Jews -
merchants,
slaves and captives,
religious and economic refugees -
spread around the world.
Many intermarried with people
from local populations, who then converted.
There is also evidence that in antiquity and the first millennium
Judaism was a proselytizing religion that even used force on occasion.
From the genetic research so far, Dr. Ostrer said,
"It's pretty clear that most Jewish groups have Semitic ancestry,
that they originated in the Middle East, and that they're more
closely related to each other than to non-Jewish groups."
But he added that it was also clear that many Jews are of mixed descent.
"The ancient admixed ancestry explains the blond hair and blue
eyes of Ashkenazi Jews whose grandparents and great-grandparents
all lived in shtetls two and three generations ago," Dr. Ostrer said.
They brought the genes for coloration with them to Eastern Europe.
These genes were probably not contributed by their Cossack neighbors."
What accounts for the grasp that some misconceptions
maintain on popular consciousness, or the inability of
historical truths to gain acceptance? Sometimes myths
persist despite clear contradictory evidence because
people feel the story embodies a deeper truth than the
facts.
Marie Antoinette never said "Let them eat cake,"
but the fictional statement captured the sense of a
regime that showed disdain for the public's welfare.
A mingling of myth, memory,
truth and aspiration similarly envelopes Jewish history,
which is, to begin with, based on scarce and confusing
archaeological and archival records.
Experts dismiss the popular notion that the Jews
were expelled from Palestine in one fell swoop in A.D. 70.
Yet while the destruction of Jerusalem and Second
Temple by the Romans did not create the Diaspora,
it caused a momentous change in the Jews' sense
of themselves and their position in the world.
For later generations it encapsulates the essential
truth about the Jews being an exiled and persecuted
people for much of their history.
Professor Sand accuses Zionist historians from the 19th century onward -
the very same scholars on whose work he bases his case -
of hiding the truth and creating a myth of shared roots to
strengthen their nationalist agenda.
He explains that he has uncovered no new information,
but has "organized the knowledge differently."
In other words,
he is doing precisely what he accuses the Zionists of -
shaping the material to fit a narrative.
In that sense, Professor Sand is operating within a long established
tradition.
As "The Illustrated History of the Jewish People,"
edited by Nicholas Lange (Harcourt, 1997), notes,
"Every generation of Jewish historians
has faced the same task:
to retell and adapt the story to meet the needs of its own situation."
The same could be said of all nations and religions.
Perhaps that is why - on both sides of the argument -
some myths stubbornly persist no matter how often they
are debunked while other indubitable facts continually
fail to gain traction.
DoD
> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/24/books/24jews.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2
>
And the trolling cow from New York comes out of her shell... What is
with you left wing
moonbats? Get rid of the northeast get rid of the southwest and let
the real America thrive
like the Fathers envisioned without the poisonous traitors like
yourself...
Jewdas
Poisonous traitor....That describes you to a "T". You would sell out
your own mother for a kiss from a Jewish slag like Susan.
>
>
>
Jewdas
That would interfere with his bottom licking.
DoD
Shut up you fat piece of shit.. You are the worst of the worst in
making sure
that we inherited this problem today.... A fat fucking retarded slob
like yourself
kept drooling about some Jew when the leftists stole this country
during the
60s 70s 80s 90s and now. Fuck you ocean... it is your generation that
screwed America
not mine.....
Jewdas
Wow! Lots of insane babbling along with foaming at the mouth. Such
chutzpah from a treasonous Croatian who licks Jew ass. I note the real
Jews ignore you. I guess no one has any use for a booze/alcohol/gambling
addicted idiot that won't work. Kansas must have a really tolerant
welfare system to put up with your crap. Someday, you might even learn
how to do a whois trace on net.
DoD
Ocean continues to prove that she has no life but to bother with a so
called
booze/alcohol/gambling addicted person..... Most regular people would
ignore
such people..Not ocean... I wonder why????? LOL... WE all know who is
the
real POS here.. get a life donna... just get a life.. LOL
DoD
Hey watson... your friend that has ass fucking friends showed up to
support
you!!!!! Isn't this great???????
DoD
I see that ocean knows that he is the problem with lettig leftists run
wild
in this country....Got a problem with Cass Sunstein? Thank ocean...
Got
a problem any other leftist.. Thank ocean...
Jewdas
You really should watch that blood pressure. At your age it could cause
a real blowout. Maybe you could save your money and buy a mail order
woman. A real woman would be better then that blowup you so cherish. ;-)
>
>
>
Jewdas
So those little voices in your head are talking to you again. You do
realize that you just posted to yourself? I guess the Drugs/Booze have
created some long term mental problems with a Doo Doo mind that was a
bit skeptical to begin with.
>
Jewdas
High on ludes again, Doo Doo?
>
DoD
You certainly are retarded and no very pithy.....
LOL...
DoD......
Jewdas
I doubt you have a clue as to who you are posting to. In fact it appears
your are posting mostly to yourself. Or is it to the little voices again?
>
> LOL...
>
> DoD......
DoD
This is the best that donna ocean could come up with.. Thank G-d this
is the
worst thing that G-d can come up with in modern times against the
Jewish people
...They have nothing to worry about now.
DoD
In my 30s ?
Maybe you could save your money and buy a mail order
> woman. A real woman would be better then that blowup you so cherish. ;-)
You are so weird it is not even funny.
NoSpamAtAll
Al Smith <inv...@address.com> wrote:
[...]
Eat shit and die already, nazi pig. Today.
dsharavi
> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/24/books/24jews.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2
>
> Despite the fragmented and incomplete historical record,
> experts pretty much agree that some popular beliefs about
> Jewish history simply don't hold up:
> there was no sudden expulsion of all Jews
> from Jerusalem in A.D. 70, for instance.
Tell that to the "Palestinians" and their antisemitic fellow-
travellers: they've been the chief proponents of the myth that ALL
Jews "left" (or were driven) from Israel, then "returned" en masse in
the 19th C, whereas anyone with a modicum of historical knowledge, non-
Jews as well as Jews, have always known otherwise:
"After Bar Kochba…Jewish emigration, a more or less permanent feature
of ancient Palestinian demography, now assumed alarming proportions."
- Salo Baron, A Social and Religious History of the Jews (1952), vol.
2, pp 122-3
I"Chaim Milikowsky, professor and past chairman of the Talmud
department at Bar Ilan university, has argued that in 2nd and 3rd
century tannaitic sources, the Hebrew term rendered as “exile” has the
meaning of political subjugation rather than physically being driven
from the land (cited in Yuval, p. 19, n.1) This, by the way, dovetails
nicely with the Zionist historiography that emphasizes the loss of
political independence, rather the physical removal of the Jews from
the Land of Israel. For Zionists were somewhat at a loss to explain
how Jewish rabbis could create the Mishnah and subsequently the Talmud
of the Land of Israel if there was a mass exile."
Jerry Haber, "No, Rivkele, the Jews weren't driven into exile by the
Romans, 27 July 2007
> Other theories,
> like the notion that many of today's Palestinians can
> legitimately claim to be descended from the ancient Jews,
> are familiar and serious subjects of study, even if no definitive answer yet
> exists.
This is a joke, and the joke's on "today's 'Palestinians'".
> Professor Sand, a scholar of modern France, not Jewish history,
> candidly states his aim is to undercut the Jews' claims to the
> land of Israel by demonstrating that they do not constitute "a people,"
> with a shared racial or biological past.
A man with an agenda, in other words. Sand isn't a "scholar of modern
France", BTW; he teaches film history and modern French intellectual
history.
> Nearly a century ago,
> early Zionists and Arab nationalists touted
> the blood relationship as the basis of a potential
> alliance in their respective struggles for independence.
> Israel's first prime minister, David Ben-Gurion,
> and Yitzhak Ben Zvi, Israel's longest-serving president,
> made this very argument in a book they wrote together in 1918.
What book was that? The title of that joint literary effort seems to
have escaped me.
> The next year, Emir Feisal,
> who organized the Arab revolt against the
> Ottoman empire
Thank Heaven someone has finally given the Emir some credit for that
revolt.
>and tried to create a united Arab nation,
> signed a cooperation agreement with the Zionist leader
> Chaim Weizmann that declared the two were
> "mindful of the racial kinship and ancient bonds
> existing between the Arabs and the Jewish people."
That was the Agreement of 3rd January 1919, in which Feisal --
"representing and acting on behalf of the Arab Kingdom of Hejaz" --
and Weizmann -- "representing and acting on behalf of the Zionist
Organisation" -- delineated their hopes for the "the development of
the Arab State and Palestine", including working out "the definite
boundaries between the Arab State and Palestine".
> Both sides later dropped the subject when
> they realized it was not furthering their political goals.
Neither "dropped the subject"; that was forced on them by the British
and the French.
> Since Professor Sand's mission is to
> discredit Jews' historical claims to the territory,
> he is keen to show that their ancestry lines
> do not lead back to ancient Palestine.
In that case, he discredits the "Palestinians'" claim of descent from
the Jews of Israel.
> He resurrects a theory first raised by 19th-century historians,
> that the Jews of Central and Eastern Europe, to whom 90 percent
> of American Jews trace their roots, are descended from the Khazars,
> a Turkic people who apparently converted to Judaism and created
> an empire in the Caucasus in the eighth century.
That "theory" was first voiced by the French racist-historian Ernest
Renan in 1883, and later repeated 40 years later by Henry Ford's
publications.
> This idea has long intrigued writers and historians.
Most of whom were antisemites.
> By now, experts who specialize in the subject have
> repeatedly rejected the theory, concluding that the
> shards of evidence are inconclusive or misleading,
> said Michael Terry, the chief librarian of the Jewish
> division of the New York Public Library.
It was never a theory anyway.
> That does not negate that conversion played a critical role in Jewish
> history -
Duh.
> There is also evidence that in antiquity and the first millennium
> Judaism was a proselytizing religion that even used force on occasion.
Ditto.
> Professor Sand accuses Zionist historians from the 19th century onward -
> the very same scholars on whose work he bases his case -
> of hiding the truth and creating a myth of shared roots to
> strengthen their nationalist agenda.
Sand's silly accusation has already been dealt with.
Deborah
dsharavi
> > > How do you know that Mirjam?
>
> On Jan 7, 6:15 am, mirjam <mir...@actcom.co.il> wrote:
> > By reading !!!!Comparing etc.....
> > mirjam
On Jan 7, 8:24 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> By reading what, Mirjam?
Small rectangular objects known as "books". Often these objects are
found in buildings created as repositories for them, which are known
as "libraries".
Deborah
mirjam
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
I didn`t write anything about anyone admiting any thing ,
mirjam
mirjam
wrote:
??????????????
What a strange question ? i could ask the same things ? what do you
read?
How do you know that what you read is reliable?
mirjam
mirjam
> What book was that? The title of that joint literary effort seems to
> have escaped me.
a Book in Yiddish , "Eretz Israel in the past and present" [my
trnaslation of the Title is qite a free translation]
>
> > Both sides later dropped the subject when
> > they realized it was not furthering their political goals.
>
> Neither "dropped the subject"; that was forced on them by the British
> and the French.
>
> > This idea has long intrigued writers and historians.
>
> Most of whom were antisemites.
the problem for Anti semires in this Theory, is that it pulls the rug
under one of the main Dogma`s of the Christian faith .
>
> > That does not negate that conversion played a critical role in Jewish
> > history -
>
> Duh.
Deborah he forgot how Forced Conversion of Jews into Christianty or
Into Islam , took away many of our people.
>
> > There is also evidence that in antiquity and the first millennium
> > Judaism was a proselytizing religion that even used force on occasion.
>
?????? interesting , you claim this about the Time christianity comes
into being , and the Jews spresd all over by the Romans ???
mirjam
mirjam
You are so right Deborah ,,,, and don`t tell that incocl person , but
some of us have long wooden or metal shelves on our walls on which we
have rows of those rectangular objects ,,,,,,
mirjam
Bolt Upright
"DoD" <danski...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:372531a3-e0a9-442b...@r24g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
IIRC, a chap named Jefferson Davis tried something like that in 1863. Don't
think that it worked out too well, but here's Doodoo saying "Let's try it
again".
A word of advice Doodoo:
Doing the same thing over and expecting a different result is a sign of
insanity.
Bolt Upright
^^^
>is the
^^^^
>worst thing that G-d can come up with in modern times
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>against the
^^^^^^^^
>Jewish people
^^^^^^^^^^^
>...They have nothing to worry about now.
Did I read the above right?
???????????????????????
Is Doodoo actually saying that GOD is against the Jewish people?
Man, you are one sick puppy! Get medical help!
coaste...@yahoo.com
I'm interested in ideas, David, and free ranging discussion of
anything and everything fit to print. I oppose attempts to shut down
discussion of taboo subjects. As your role here is completely
obstructionist, you'll have to deal with your critics by yourself.
Whatever their faults and virtues, they are free to criticize you.
coaste...@yahoo.com
Paranoid, David. Truman was no leftist. He had been a WWI artillery
officer, a businessman and the aristocrat FDR's Vice President. We had
two Eisenhower terms, two Reagan terms. Jack Kennedy was murdered. LBJ
was destroyed by VIetnam. We had Nixon. We had George W. Bush and his
father, notorious leftists. Even when we did get a liberal, Clinton,
what did he do? He essentially ended our welfare system, forced people
back to work and then, wonder of all wonders, balanced the federal
budget and built a surplus. Why don't you do whatever is necessary to
get yourself stabilized. And please stop this pathetic LOL business.
You don't realize how desperate it makes you look.
coaste...@yahoo.com
Mirjam, did you need Rosen to step in here? Does he have your blessing?
coaste...@yahoo.com
Okay, you're not going to let us in on it. You don't have to.
coaste...@yahoo.com
> On Jan 7, 9:08 pm, "tdny" <t...@live.com> wrote:
>
> >http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/24/books/24jews.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2
Clip to get to the point
You shouldn't have left in the url to the Cohen review of Shlomo
Sand's book. It is fair minded and from the New York Times:
drahcir
> DoD wrote:
>
> > When it comes to undermining the legitimacy of the Jewish state, there
> > is no thesis too absurd to be published. In fact, one can assume that
> > any book attacking the idea of Jewish nationalism will gain a
> > following (and even garner awards), regardless of how preposterous the
> > underlying thesis.
>
> <snip>
>
> This review is just a smear piece. Disregard.
Translation: Al "science is an ass" * Smith can't make head or tail of
it.
* http://groups.google.com/group/hfx.general/msg/793a46602677411f
>
> -Al-
drahcir
wrote:
> On Jan 6, 11:38 pm, DoD <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 6, 10:15 pm, Al Smith <inva...@address.com> wrote:
>
> > > DoD wrote:
>
> > > > When it comes to undermining the legitimacy of the Jewish state, there
> > > > is no thesis too absurd to be published. In fact, one can assume that
> > > > any book attacking the idea of Jewish nationalism will gain a
> > > > following (and even garner awards), regardless of how preposterous the
> > > > underlying thesis.
>
>
> > > This review is just a smear piece. Disregard.
>
>
>
>
> >http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1776
>
> > You know it is accurate when al decides to appear and make stupid
> > comments.
>
> This author is an American Israel lobby hatchet man. Why choose him
> over Israel's Haaretz:
The below is not a review, you moron.
>
> Last update - 00:00 27/11/2009
>
> Shlomo Sand's 'The Invention of the Jewish People' is a success for
> Israel
>
> By Carlo Strenger
>
> Some may be surprised to find that Sand's goal is to preserve Israel
> as a democracy with a Jewish character.
>
> For a number of days now, the NYT review of Shlomo Sand's The
> Invention of the Jewish People, which has recently been published in
> an English translation, has been on the list of 'most emailed
> articles' - a remarkable feat for a book review. As the reviewer
> points out, the hype around the book was mostly generated by some of
> Sand's less controversial claims.
>
> Yes, Jewish public consciousness continues to be formed by the idea
> that Jews were exiled from Israel by the Romans, whereas the truth is
> that close to two million Jews continued to live here until the fall
> of the Roman empire. Yes, a large portion of the Roman Empire Jews
> became Jewish by conversion, and hence most Jews today are unlikely to
> be descendants of Jews who lived here two thousand years ago. But, as
> Sand repeatedly points out, none of this is disputed by historians.
>
> Yes, the Zionist narrative has created a semblance of continuity
> between the Jews living in Israel two thousand years ago and modern
> Jews, much more than actually exists. But, as Sand shows, all modern
> nation states have created narratives aimed at legitimizing cultural,
> linguistic and political hegemony of the dominant group. In this
> respect Israel is not different from Germany, Italy or Indonesia.
> Sand's claim is that Israel doesn't need to shroud itself in myth for
> its continued existence, and this, in my view, is the book's most
> important merit, and should come as a relief rather than be seen as an
> attack on Israel.
> Advertisement
>
> Sand's book is not a pure work of history. In fact, it has a clearly
> stated political agenda. From all the sound and the fury you might
> think that his agenda is to expel all Jews from Israel, or to abolish
> the Jewish state. It might come as a surprise to some who have not
> read the book that Sand's goal is to preserve Israel as a democracy
> with a Jewish character based on a Jewish majority.
>
> Sand points out that modern democracies fall into two categories that
> emerged in modern Europe: East of the Rhein, the dominant model was
> that of ethnocracies: countries that were supposed to have a special
> attachment to a particular ethnos. West of the Rhein the model of pure
> liberal democracies prevailed: for them the sovereign is simply the
> totality of its citizens. The clearest case of this model is, of
> course, the U.S. No one could conceivably argue that the Caucasian
> conquerors of America had some special historical relation to the
> land. The U.S. continued to be an immigrant country, and every new
> citizen had the same right, whatever his or her provenance.
>
> Sand claims that most of Israel's present ills stem from its being an
> ethnocracy that gives Jews special privileges. This keeps raising the
> question 'who is a Jew', and makes it very difficult for the large
> minority of Israeli Arabs to feel that they have equal rights.
> Sand's book came out early in 2008, too early to address one of the
> utter perversions that the current state of affairs presents:
> Notoriously, Israel's Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman's platform
> would require every citizen in Israel to take a loyalty oath to the
> Jewish state. Most commentators saw this as an attempt to delegitimize
> Israel's Arabs - which was certainly true. But they forgot that most
> of Lieberman's voters are from the former Soviet bloc, many of whom
> are not recognized as Jews by the Rabbinate. His move was supposed to
> help them by substituting Jewish ancestry or orthodox conversion with
> loyalty to the state as their stamp of legitimacy.
>
> Lieberman's outlandish and totalitarian proposal would have been
> unnecessary if Israel was a pure liberal democracy: once immigrants
> receive citizenship, they would not have to worry about their status
> and legitimacy. However, as Sand points out, Ben-Gurion's historical
> compromise with the orthodox establishment created an anomaly unique
> in advanced democracies: in Israel the state actually tells Jews who
> we can marry and how.
>
> One of the reasons for all these maneuvers is, of course, Hok
> Hashevut, the law of return, which allows Jews from anywhere to
> receive automatic Israeli citizenship. Sand argues that this law must
> be repealed. By turning Israel into a liberal democracy, all Israeli
> citizens at this point in history, never mind their ethnic provenance
> or religion, would be its sovereign. Given Israel's current
> demography, this would guarantee Jewish hegemony without making
> recourse to non-democratic means ranging from the involvement of the
> Rabbinate in citizens' private lives to Lieberman's loyalty oath. Sand
> also argues that abolishing Hok Hashevut is necessary in preventing
> Palestinians from claiming their Right of Return, as nobody would,
> from that moment onwards, have an automatic right to citizenship.
>
> I disagree with this aspect of Sand's conclusion: I think that Hok
> Hashevut has little weight in the Palestinians' accepting or rejecting
> the existence of Israel. I also think that Sand's criticism of the
> efforts of legal scholars like Amnon Rubinstein to work out a liberal
> platform that would safeguard Hok Hashevut are mostly not convincing,
> and he doesn't mention law professor Ruth Gavison's important work in
> this context. This law is one of Israel's raisons d'etre, and should
> be maintained, even though some of its specifics need to be reworked
> to make sure that it is not abused for political and other purposes.
>
> Disagreements aside, I think that Shlomo Sand's questions about how
> Israel's democracy can be liberalized and stabilized are thought-
> provoking and deserve serious discussion. But most of all, the book's
> success in Israel (it was on the bestseller list for nineteen weeks)
> is a success for Israel. The fact that very basic questions about
> Israel's foundations can be discussed trenchantly shows that Israel is
> a vibrant, if at times flawed, democracy. It will resist all attempts
> by politicians like Lieberman to prescribe its citizens what to think
> or feel.
coaste...@yahoo.com
> > > > > DoD wrote:
> > > > > > When it comes to undermining the legitimacy of the Jewish state, there
> > > > > > is no thesis too absurd to be published. In fact, one can assume that
> > > > > > any book attacking the idea of Jewish nationalism will gain a
> > > > > > following (and even garner awards), regardless of how preposterous the
> > > > > > underlying thesis.
> > > >http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1776
> > > > On Jan 6, 10:15 pm, Al Smith <inva...@address.com> wrote:
> > > > > This review is just a smear piece. Disregard.
> > wrote:
> > > It certainly is.
>
> > Tweedle dee makes stupid comment, so not to be outdone, tweedle dumb
> > shows up to make an even bigger ass out of himself.....
>
> lol
> Birdbrains of a feather.....but you left out H's more amusing
> comments:
>
> >>This author is an American Israel lobby hatchet man.
>
>
> But what gives H the idea that Ricki Hollander of CAMERA is a MAN?
>
> > Why choose him
>
> H would rather you rely unquestioningly on the blige yarked up by an
> antisemitic bebopper/punk rocking blogster, like H does.
>
> BTW, have you ever heard of a man named RICKI?
>
> Deborah
Yes, he owns a reasonably good Thai restaurant hereabouts.
coaste...@yahoo.com
> On Jan 6, 10:04 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 7, 12:27 am, mirjam <mir...@actcom.co.il> wrote:
>
> > > When we were in 3rd grade , we had a girl who believed she was
> > > abducted from some Royal nursery , she had those fantastic interesting
> > > stories about her so called nanies , her parents etc,,,,,she kept
> > > telling them. When we left high school she still believed and started
> > > writing a book about it ,, later she became ill . and later was
> > > hospitalized .
>
> > > I know a man who believes he is the incarnation of some God ,,,
>
> > > Dr Zand, wrote a Hypothetical book , Usinf some true facts and Many
> > > wrong facts .
> > > mirjam
>
>
> 1) She read the book in the original Hebrew
> 2) You didn't read the book in the original Hebrew or its English
> translation
> 3) She knows more than you about Jews, Judaism, and Israel
>
> Next question.
>
> Deborah
Poor Mirjam, dissed by Ed Rosen. Treated like a child.
coaste...@yahoo.com
> to make sure he doesn't know the facts about Jews....
>
> That is pretty easy to accomplish with an asshole that puts his head
> in the sand 24x7.
Did Rosen actually ask you to butt into this thread?
coaste...@yahoo.com
> On Jan 7, 12:42 am, "dshar...@gmail.com" <dshar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > > > > > DoD wrote:
> > > > > > > When it comes to undermining the legitimacy of the Jewish state, there
> > > > > > > is no thesis too absurd to be published. In fact, one can assume that
> > > > > > > any book attacking the idea of Jewish nationalism will gain a
> > > > > > > following (and even garner awards), regardless of how preposterous the
> > > > > > > underlying thesis.
> > > > >http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1776
> > > > > On Jan 6, 10:15 pm, Al Smith <inva...@address.com> wrote:
> > > > > > This review is just a smear piece. Disregard.
> > > On Jan 6, 11:02 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > It certainly is.
>
> > > Tweedle dee makes stupid comment, so not to be outdone, tweedle dumb
> > > shows up to make an even bigger ass out of himself.....
>
> > lol
> > Birdbrains of a feather.....but you left out H's more amusing
> > comments:
>
> Deb.. I am a Gentile and have to live with this fuckhead claiming
> that he is a Gentile intellectual... That doesn't sit well with people
> that
> actually think.
>
> > >>This author is an American Israel lobby hatchet man.
>
> > That's H's rebuttal style to facts: namecalling.
>
> > But what gives H the idea that Ricki Hollander of CAMERA is a MAN?
>
>
> > > Why choose him
>
> > H would rather you rely unquestioningly on the blige yarked up by an
> > antisemitic bebopper/punk rocking blogster, like H does.
>
> > BTW, have you ever heard of a man named RICKI?
>
Never met Hunter Thompson?
coaste...@yahoo.com
> "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:0e687fd0-58ea-477c...@34g2000yqp.googlegroups.com...
>
> > When we were in 3rd grade , we had a girl who believed she was
> > abducted from some Royal nursery , she had those fantastic interesting
> > stories about her so called nanies , her parents etc,,,,,she kept
> > telling them. When we left high school she still believed and started
> > writing a book about it ,, later she became ill . and later was
> > hospitalized .
>
> > I know a man who believes he is the incarnation of some God ,,,
>
> > Dr Zand, wrote a Hypothetical book , Usinf some true facts and Many
> > wrong facts .
> > mirjam
>
> How do you know that Mirjam?
>
He admits he has an agenda, but not that the book is hypothetical. He
believes that it's time for Israel to stop beating-up on Palestinians.
So much for having a terrible agenda.
coaste...@yahoo.com
> On Jan 6, 10:44 pm, "dshar...@gmail.com" <dshar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 6, 10:04 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
>
> > > > When we were in 3rd grade , we had a girl who believed she was
> > > > abducted from some Royal nursery , she had those fantastic interesting
> > > > stories about her so called nanies , her parents etc,,,,,she kept
> > > > telling them. When we left high school she still believed and started
> > > > writing a book about it ,, later she became ill . and later was
> > > > hospitalized .
>
> > > > I know a man who believes he is the incarnation of some God ,,,
>
> > > > Dr Zand, wrote a Hypothetical book , Usinf some true facts and Many
> > > > wrong facts .
> > > > mirjam
>
> > > How do you know that Mirjam?
>
> > 1) She read the book in the original Hebrew
> > 2) You didn't read the book in the original Hebrew or its English
> > translation
> > 3) She knows more than you about Jews, Judaism, and Israel
>
>
> > Deborah
>
> Iconoarse gets spanked again! He must be a masochist or pillow
> biter.
Classy handle you've got there, Hole.
coaste...@yahoo.com
> "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> On Jan 6, 11:38 pm, DoD <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 6, 10:15 pm, Al Smith <inva...@address.com> wrote:
>
> > > DoD wrote:
>
> > > > When it comes to undermining the legitimacy of the Jewish state, there
> > > > is no thesis too absurd to be published. In fact, one can assume that
> > > > any book attacking the idea of Jewish nationalism will gain a
> > > > following (and even garner awards), regardless of how preposterous the
> > > > underlying thesis.
>
>
> Anytime that you see "camera.org" in a URL you know that what follows is
> self-serving zionist propaganda. What else can one expect from a Doodoo
> post?
>
>
>
> > You know it is accurate when al decides to appear and make stupid
> > comments.
>
> This author is an American Israel lobby hatchet man. Why choose him
> over Israel's Haaretz:
>
coaste...@yahoo.com
> "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:69c9ce14-759f-4387...@l30g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 6, 11:38 pm, DoD <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 6, 10:15 pm, Al Smith <inva...@address.com> wrote:
>
> > > DoD wrote:
>
> > > > When it comes to undermining the legitimacy of the Jewish state, there
> > > > is no thesis too absurd to be published. In fact, one can assume that
> > > > any book attacking the idea of Jewish nationalism will gain a
> > > > following (and even garner awards), regardless of how preposterous the
> > > > underlying thesis.
>
> > > This review is just a smear piece. Disregard.
> >It certainly is.
>
> Anytime that you see "camera.org" in a URL you know that what follows is
> self-serving zionist propaganda. What else can one expect from a Doodoo
> post?
Even worse is shown by an analysis of Camera's motivation. It
righteously picks nits and is very assaultive in its approach. It's
primary goal is not to correct errors in news articles. It is to
*condition* the press to keep its collective head down for fear of
attack by the Zionist right in the US. Most of the mainstream press is
already either owned or intimidated for fear of being labeled and of
losing advertisers, etc. I suggested to Zev the other day that we pass
new amendments to our anti-trust legislation, or new companion
legislation, that takes into account other patterns of abusive
centralization of private power, i.e., in the press. The free press is
supposed to protect us in its watchdog role. If it doesn't do that it
is not fulfilling a critical role in our more and more fragile
democracy. We've already had one devastating civil war in our brief
existence. I can see these patterns leading to more civil strife.
coaste...@yahoo.com
> On Jan 7, 10:25 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 7, 9:30 pm, "Bolt Upright" <HughGRect...@merde.com> wrote:
>
> > > "DoD" <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> > >news:8b758d37-a480-436d...@a6g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > <snip crap>
>
> > > >http://www.camera.org/index.asp?
>
> > > Camera.org, Doodoo? CAMERA?
> > > Now, there's a real, genuine, honest, reliable source.
> > > NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > > Come on, laddie. Even for you, this is way over the top.
>
> not interested fact.
>
> > Can't be. Doo Doo has never been near the top.
>
>
> Gawd you are a pathetic piece of shit....h....
Tell us, there seems to be a bit of confusion, is it Kansas or
Nebraska?
dsharavi
wrote:
> On Jan 8, 1:27 am, DoD <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jan 7, 11:54 pm, Jewdas <Jew...@circumcision.com> wrote:
>
> > > iconocl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > On Jan 7, 9:30 pm, "Bolt Upright" <HughGRect...@merde.com> wrote:
> > > >> "DoD" <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> > > >>news:8b758d37-a480-436d...@a6g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > >> <snip crap>
>
> > > >>>http://www.camera.org/index.asp?
> > > >> Camera.org, Doodoo? CAMERA?
> > > >> Now, there's a real, genuine, honest, reliable source.
> > > >> NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > > >> Come on, laddie. Even for you, this is way over the top.
>
> > > > Can't be. Doo Doo has never been near the top.
>
> > > That would interfere with his bottom licking.
>
> > Hey watson... your friend that has ass fucking friends showed up to
> > support
> > you!!!!! Isn't this great???????
>
> I'm interested in ideas, David, and free ranging discussion of
> anything and everything fit to print.
With the proviso that they agree totally with H's half-baked opinions,
and aren't too intellectually taxing for him.
Deborah
dsharavi
wrote:
Translation: H is caressing his cojones, to make sure there still
there.
Deborah
coaste...@yahoo.com
> On Jan 7, 11:08 pm, "tdny" <t...@live.com> wrote:
>
> >http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/24/books/24jews.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2
>
Patricia Cohen of the New York Times is a trolling cow? Isn't Cohen
one of the most aristocratic lines in Jewry?
What is
> with you left wing
> moonbats?
Patricia Cohen, a Jewish aristocrat, trolls on the pages of the New
York Times? Do you understand what you are saying?
Get rid of the northeast get rid of the southwest and let
> the real America thrive
Says an intellectually-challenged hick from the Corn Belt? The people
of the northeast and the southwest are now traitors? The Jewish
community in the northeast are traitors? Barry Goldwater of Arizona
was a traitor? The Cardinals of Arizona are going to be traitors for
getting their asses kicked next Sunday at 4 EST by the Packers? We
would thrive better if we lopped off Hollywood and Manhattan?
> like the Fathers envisioned without the poisonous traitors like
> yourself...
The "Fathers" are spinning in their graves because we aren't sending
Manhattan to Israel?
Back to goat herding in Croatia, David. You are one stupid SOB.
coaste...@yahoo.com
> On Jan 8, 12:25 am, DoD <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 8, 12:19 am, Jewdas <Jew...@circumcision.com> wrote:
>
> > > DoD wrote:
> > > > On Jan 7, 11:52 pm, Jewdas <Jew...@circumcision.com> wrote:
> > > >>> On Jan 7, 11:08 pm, "tdny" <t...@live.com> wrote:
> > > >>>>http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/24/books/24jews.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2
> > > >>> with you left wing
> > > >>> moonbats? Get rid of the northeast get rid of the southwest and let
> > > >>> the real America thrive
> > > >>> like the Fathers envisioned without the poisonous traitors like
> > > >>> yourself...
Never heard of Cass Sunstein. And if you're talking to Don Ocean you
certainly aren't talking to a leftist.
coaste...@yahoo.com
> On Jan 7, 12:02 am, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
>
> The below is not a review, you moron.
Why of course it is. Here's a quote from it:
"Sand's book is not a pure work of history. In fact, it has a clearly
stated political agenda?"
dsharavi
wrote:
> On Jan 8, 4:38 am, dsharavi <dshara...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 7, 9:08 pm, "tdny" <t...@live.com> wrote:
>
> > >http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/24/books/24jews.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2
>
> Clip to get to the point
Translation: H clipped ALL points, so as to avoid strain on his brain
in trying to reply to facts he can't face.
H's cowardly clippage restored:
> Despite the fragmented and incomplete historical record,
> experts pretty much agree that some popular beliefs about
> Jewish history simply don't hold up:
> there was no sudden expulsion of all Jews
> from Jerusalem in A.D. 70, for instance.
Tell that to the "Palestinians" and their antisemitic fellow-
travellers: they've been the chief proponents of the myth that ALL
Jews "left" (or were driven) from Israel, then "returned" en masse in
the 19th C, whereas anyone with a modicum of historical knowledge,
non-
Jews as well as Jews, have always known otherwise:
"After Bar Kochba…Jewish emigration, a more or less permanent feature
of ancient Palestinian demography, now assumed alarming proportions."
- Salo Baron, A Social and Religious History of the Jews (1952), vol.
2, pp 122-3
I"Chaim Milikowsky, professor and past chairman of the Talmud
department at Bar Ilan university, has argued that in 2nd and 3rd
century tannaitic sources, the Hebrew term rendered as “exile” has the
meaning of political subjugation rather than physically being driven
from the land (cited in Yuval, p. 19, n.1) This, by the way, dovetails
nicely with the Zionist historiography that emphasizes the loss of
political independence, rather the physical removal of the Jews from
the Land of Israel. For Zionists were somewhat at a loss to explain
how Jewish rabbis could create the Mishnah and subsequently the Talmud
of the Land of Israel if there was a mass exile."
Jerry Haber, "No, Rivkele, the Jews weren't driven into exile by the
Romans, 27 July 2007
> Other theories,
> like the notion that many of today's Palestinians can
> legitimately claim to be descended from the ancient Jews,
> are familiar and serious subjects of study, even if no definitive answer yet
> exists.
This is a joke, and the joke's on "today's 'Palestinians'".
> Professor Sand, a scholar of modern France, not Jewish history,
> candidly states his aim is to undercut the Jews' claims to the
> land of Israel by demonstrating that they do not constitute "a people,"
> with a shared racial or biological past.
A man with an agenda, in other words. Sand isn't a "scholar of modern
France", BTW; he teaches film history and modern French intellectual
history.
> Nearly a century ago,
> early Zionists and Arab nationalists touted
> the blood relationship as the basis of a potential
> alliance in their respective struggles for independence.
> Israel's first prime minister, David Ben-Gurion,
> and Yitzhak Ben Zvi, Israel's longest-serving president,
> made this very argument in a book they wrote together in 1918.
What book was that? The title of that joint literary effort seems to
have escaped me.
> The next year, Emir Feisal,
> who organized the Arab revolt against the
> Ottoman empire
Thank Heaven someone has finally given the Emir some credit for that
revolt.
>and tried to create a united Arab nation,
> signed a cooperation agreement with the Zionist leader
> Chaim Weizmann that declared the two were
> "mindful of the racial kinship and ancient bonds
> existing between the Arabs and the Jewish people."
That was the Agreement of 3rd January 1919, in which Feisal --
"representing and acting on behalf of the Arab Kingdom of Hejaz" --
and Weizmann -- "representing and acting on behalf of the Zionist
Organisation" -- delineated their hopes for the "the development of
the Arab State and Palestine", including working out "the definite
boundaries between the Arab State and Palestine".
> Both sides later dropped the subject when
> they realized it was not furthering their political goals.
Neither "dropped the subject"; that was forced on them by the British
and the French.
> Since Professor Sand's mission is to
> discredit Jews' historical claims to the territory,
> he is keen to show that their ancestry lines
> do not lead back to ancient Palestine.
In that case, he discredits the "Palestinians'" claim of descent from
the Jews of Israel.
> He resurrects a theory first raised by 19th-century historians,
> that the Jews of Central and Eastern Europe, to whom 90 percent
> of American Jews trace their roots, are descended from the Khazars,
> a Turkic people who apparently converted to Judaism and created
> an empire in the Caucasus in the eighth century.
That "theory" was first voiced by the French racist-historian Ernest
Renan in 1883, and later repeated 40 years later by Henry Ford's
publications.
> This idea has long intrigued writers and historians.
Most of whom were antisemites.
> By now, experts who specialize in the subject have
> repeatedly rejected the theory, concluding that the
> shards of evidence are inconclusive or misleading,
> said Michael Terry, the chief librarian of the Jewish
> division of the New York Public Library.
It was never a theory anyway.
> That does not negate that conversion played a critical role in Jewish
> history -
Duh.
> There is also evidence that in antiquity and the first millennium
> Judaism was a proselytizing religion that even used force on occasion.
Ditto.
> Professor Sand accuses Zionist historians from the 19th century onward -
> the very same scholars on whose work he bases his case -
> of hiding the truth and creating a myth of shared roots to
> strengthen their nationalist agenda.
Sand's silly accusation has already been dealt with.
> You shouldn't have left in the url to the Cohen review of Shlomo
> Sand's book. It is fair minded and from the New York Times:
Obviously, H failed to read the review. Of course, if he read it, the
uneducated boor couldn't have comprehended it.
Deborah
dsharavi
wrote:
That's Ricki with an "i", Tipsy.
Deborah
dsharavi
Poor H, still caressing his cojones to reassure himself they're there.
No doubt local parents have warned their children away from him.
Deborah
dsharavi
Ed Rosen hasn't posted here in a year, Tipsy. Are you finding access
to the local muchachos more difficult than usual?
Deborah
Bolt Upright
"icono...@yahoo.com" <coaste...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c6bf9809-41da-4d1d...@l30g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
Or that other fate of empires, fragmantation. Which is what your civil war
was primarily about. This would give birth to either an Indian or Chinese
empire, with the latter being the more probable. Mind you, this may be in
the cards in any event.
drahcir
wrote:
> On Jan 8, 2:59 pm, drahcir <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 7, 12:02 am, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
>
> > The below is not a review, you moron.
>
> Why of course it is. Here's a quote from it:
>
> "Sand's book is not a pure work of history. In fact, it has a clearly
> stated political agenda?"
That's it?
Does the following sound like a review to you? If so, does it sound
like a "review" that attempts to refute the review to which, for some
reason, you posted it in "reply"? Hmmm?
>
> <snip>
drahcir
You probably didn't realize that you're Ed Rosen. At least that's what
I think he thinks. With his alzheimic "brain", of course, one can't be
sure.
dsharavi
> > >http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/24/books/24jews.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2
>
> On Jan 8, 12:36 am, DoD <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > And the trolling cow from New York comes out of her shell...
>
wrote:
> Patricia Cohen of the New York Times is a trolling cow? Isn't Cohen
> one of the most aristocratic lines in Jewry?
Two errors in his first two sentences: H is in typical form this
afternoon.
>
> What is
> > with you left wing
> > moonbats?
>
> Patricia Cohen, a Jewish aristocrat, trolls on the pages of the New
> York Times? Do you understand what you are saying?
Having asked a nonsensical question, H provides a nonsensical answer.
And H obviously doesn't understand what he himself is saying.
> Get rid of the northeast get rid of the southwest and let
>
> > the real America thrive
>
> Says an intellectually-challenged hick from the Corn Belt?
From error to name-calling: the hick from the northern back of beyond
is truly in form.
>The people
> of the northeast and the southwest are now traitors? The Jewish
> community in the northeast are traitors? Barry Goldwater of Arizona
> was a traitor? The Cardinals of Arizona are going to be traitors for
> getting their asses kicked next Sunday at 4 EST by the Packers? We
> would thrive better if we lopped off Hollywood and Manhattan?
A salient question at last, to which the answer is Yes wrt Hollywood,
probably not wrt Manhattan.
> The "Fathers" are spinning in their graves because we aren't sending
> Manhattan to Israel?
And then H is off and running back to the nonsensical again.
>
> Back to goat herding in Croatia, David. You are one stupid SOB.
And again to the name-calling.
Deborah
dsharavi
wrote:
Rather surprising, for an attorney.
"Cass R. Sunstein (born September 21, 1954) is an American legal
scholar, particularly in the fields of constitutional law,
administrative law, environmental law, and law and behavioral
economics, who currently is the Administrator of the White House
Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs in the Obama
administration. For 27 years, Sunstein taught at the University of
Chicago Law School,[1] where he continues to teach as the Harry Kalven
Visiting Professor. Sunstein is currently Felix Frankfurter Professor
of Law at Harvard Law School, where he is on leave while working in
the Obama administration."
On second thought, not so surprising when the attorney is Hunter "My
inferiority complex is fully justified" Watson.
Deborah
dsharavi
> You probably didn't realize that you're Ed Rosen.
A person nearly as concerned doesn't realize it either, lol.
>At least that's what
> I think he thinks. With his alzheimic "brain", of course, one can't be
> sure.
H does it because he's too arrogantf to face the realization he's been
bested by a woman. I presume his attitude might have differed a tad,
had he practiced his profession in a more urban area than the back of
beyond.
Deborah
coaste...@yahoo.com
Sorry, Rosen, there are hundreds of thousands of members of the legal
profession. I don't know them all. But I'll start looking for Mr.
Sunstein now, thank you.
coaste...@yahoo.com
> DoD wrote:
> > On Jan 7, 11:08 pm, "tdny" <t...@live.com> wrote:
> >>http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/24/books/24jews.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2
>
> > And the trolling cow from New York comes out of her shell... What is
> > with you left wing
> > moonbats? Get rid of the northeast get rid of the southwest and let
> > the real America thrive
> > like the Fathers envisioned without the poisonous traitors like
> > yourself...
>
> Poisonous traitor....That describes you to a "T". You would sell out
> your own mother for a kiss from a Jewish slag like Susan.
>
>
>
>
Susan is Irish.
.t@toad.net Uncle Toad
>Susan is Irish.
As Paddy's pig...
Bolt Upright
Doodoo that she's already spoken for. They seem ideally suited to one
another.
mirjam
wrote:
> On Jan 8, 4:40 am, dsharavi <dshara...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > >>"iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > By reading !!!!Comparing etc.....
> > > > mirjam
>
> > On Jan 7, 8:24 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > By reading what, Mirjam?
>
> > Small rectangular objects known as "books". Often these objects are
> > found in buildings created as repositories for them, which are known
> > as "libraries".
>
> > Deborah
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
???????????
What are you talking about i don`t know any Rosen .
mirjam
mirjam
wrote:
> On Jan 7, 1:44 am, "dshar...@gmail.com" <dshar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 6, 10:04 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 7, 12:27 am, mirjam <mir...@actcom.co.il> wrote:
>
> > > > When we were in 3rd grade , we had a girl who believed she was
> > > > abducted from some Royal nursery , she had those fantastic interesting
> > > > stories about her so called nanies , her parents etc,,,,,she kept
> > > > telling them. When we left high school she still believed and started
> > > > writing a book about it ,, later she became ill . and later was
> > > > hospitalized .
>
> > > > I know a man who believes he is the incarnation of some God ,,,
>
> > > > Dr Zand, wrote a Hypothetical book , Usinf some true facts and Many
> > > > wrong facts .
> > > > mirjam
>
>
> > 1) She read the book in the original Hebrew
> > 2) You didn't read the book in the original Hebrew or its English
> > translation
> > 3) She knows more than you about Jews, Judaism, and Israel
>
>
> > Deborah
>
> Poor Mirjam, dissed by Ed Rosen. Treated like a child.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
NO mister!! you are the Poor one , speaking about matters you don`t
have a clue about ,
Since you don`t speak hebrew Nore Arabic , you base all your fictional
opinions on Hearsay '
You should live here a bit speak with people in the busses .
resturnats street , see what local people think , than have an
opinion.
mirjam
DoD
That is a 60 or 70 year old ass acting like a teenager...That is the
epitome of the
mindset of the antisemite. Really it is Deborah, drahcir, Count1,
cornholio,Stewart ,
Ed????, and a few others fault. We helped create this colossal
dickhead by replying
to him and his friends childishness... No fault of yours....When you
give a child a
stage to throw a tantrum.. They will..How one achieves his age and
acts as foolish
as he does is a mystery worthy of Holmes...
.t@toad.net Uncle Toad
"mirjam" <mir...@actcom.co.il> wrote in message
news:3d53e0fd-23dd-4bf4...@21g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
>NO mister!! you are the Poor one , speaking about matters you don`t
>have a clue about ,
>Since you don`t speak hebrew Nore Arabic , you base all your fictional
>opinions on Hearsay '
>You should live here a bit speak with people in the busses .
>resturnats street , see what local people think , than have an
>opinion.
>mirjam
...Maybe, why your people can't make any real progress toward real peace.
The lot of you are all wound up in your own racial bullshit!
.t@toad.net Uncle Toad
>???????????
>What are you talking about i don`t know any Rosen .
>mirjam
Yes you do, but you just don't know it yet! lol
.t@toad.net Uncle Toad
"DoD" <danski...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8d4af111-f9c2-4a7f...@j14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 9, 11:40 pm, mirjam <mir...@actcom.co.il> wrote:
[skinned back]
>> ???????????
>> What are you talking about i don`t know any Rosen .
>> mirjam-
>That is a 60 or 70 year old ass acting like a teenager...That is the
>epitome of the
>mindset of the antisemite. Really it is Deborah, drahcir, Count1,
>cornholio,Stewart ,
>Ed????, and a few others fault. We helped create this colossal
>dickhead by replying
>to him and his friends childishness... No fault of yours....When you
>give a child a
>stage to throw a tantrum.. They will..How one achieves his age and
>acts as foolish
>as he does is a mystery worthy of Holmes...
Wsidom from the sage of gross stupidity! Jeeeeeezzz, he learned a few new
words.
drahcir
wrote:> > On Jan 6, 10:04 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 7, 12:27 am, mirjam <mir...@actcom.co.il> wrote:
>
> > > > When we were in 3rd grade , we had a girl who believed she was
> > > > abducted from some Royal nursery , she had those fantastic interesting
> > > > stories about her so called nanies , her parents etc,,,,,she kept
> > > > telling them. When we left high school she still believed and started
> > > > writing a book about it ,, later she became ill . and later was
> > > > hospitalized .
>
> > > > I know a man who believes he is the incarnation of some God ,,,
>
> > > > Dr Zand, wrote a Hypothetical book , Usinf some true facts and Many
> > > > wrong facts .
> > > > mirjam
>
>
> > 1) She read the book in the original Hebrew
> > 2) You didn't read the book in the original Hebrew or its English
> > translation
> > 3) She knows more than you about Jews, Judaism, and Israel
>
> > Next question.
>
> > Deborah
>
> Poor Mirjam, dissed by Ed Rosen. Treated like a child.
Sheesh, what a pathetic, lonely, adolescent septuagenarian you are, H,
to bother making such a post. That it's possible for something like
you to evolve gives one shivers.
drahcir
HHW has this thing - he cannot admit when he is wrong - he's much too
insecure, and rightfully so. (Imagine trying to participate in a group
such as this when you aren't even aware of what the Occupied
Territories are. http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.jewish/msg/300bd6834fd9f31f
) He let himself become convinced at one point that I am Count 1 and
Deb is Ed Rosen and who-knows-what other idiocies, and now, although
he realizes this is ridiculous, he repeats it because to do otherwise
would be to admit error. It's just a small symptom of the unfortunate
jumble of confused neurons that constitutes his "brain".
drahcir
Sheesh, get a life.
mirjam
Listen Mr Toad,
you hide under a name that is a bit childish , My people want peace ,
more than you could understand .
As it seems you are the one writing Racial stuff .. Read what i
wrote , you should come and speak in the Busses With people who speak
both ot either
Hebrew and Arabic , because this are the langugaes poeple speak here
[ amongst some others] ,
mirjam
mirjam
> >???????????
> >What are you talking about i don`t know any Rosen .
> >mirjam
>
> Yes you do, but you just don't know it yet! lol
I last visited a Rosen Garten [ =Roses Garden]
where i saw a plant of Rosa multiflora , she looked lovely . these
are the only kind of Rosen i know ...
mirjam
.t@toad.net Uncle Toad
Rosen posts under another name - someone you know. He's from the "City of
Roses" area in the U.S.
.t@toad.net Uncle Toad
Why do you accuse me of hiding under a name? Everyone on Usenet chooses one
(or several) user-names. No one uses their real name, unless they are
stupid, or want unneeded trouble in their life. Names must be kept private
for a multitude of legitimate reasons. If it helps you, just think of my
name as being Joseph Finkel. ...Your problem is resolved.
You think your bus-gossip and Judaic tribal-talk is not the basis for your
Hebraic bias, and anti-Arab bigotry, in Israel? Get a grip!
VTY,
Joseph Finkel
Bolt Upright
you give Doodoo too much credit.
Bolt Upright
Havertown, PA. My belief is that he no longer posts after being outed by
Mirelle a year and a half or so back. The Sharavi cannibal is for sure
NOT the Rosen rectum, despite Hunter's belief to the contrary.
In addition to being completely evil, the cannibal is much better
educated and considerably smarter than Ed Dickhead could even wish for.
I can't say with certainty that the Rosen rectum doesn't still post, but
even if he does it is NOT as Sharavi. Granting that they are both scum,
one is malevolent and fairly intelligent while the other is malevolent
and quite stupid.
.t@toad.net Uncle Toad
"Bolt Upright" <Nob...@home.com> wrote in message
news:eaf38$4b4a27c1$d8fe9ca1$89...@PRIMUS.CA...
I'll take you word for it, since you seem to have your finger on the pulse
better than I do. I'm obviously wrong... my apologies to Mirjam.
.t@toad.net Uncle Toad
Do you suppose he got a book on English usage, or a "Hooked on Phonics"
text? ... A dictionary?