History of the creation of "Israel"
TheMan
suicide bombing against the Israeli's being the once uninformed news viewer
that I was and decided to read the history on how Israel was created. Thats
when my opinion changed especially after reading the tripe the Zionists in
the newsgroups had been posting.
DON'T BE CONNED BY THE ZIONIST BULLSHIT.
Here is a rough overview of "Israel" history from a unbiased website
encyclopedia.com
Ancient Palestine
The earliest known inhabitants of Palestine were of the same group as
the Neanderthal inhabitants of Europe. By the 4th millennium BC Palestine
was inhabited by herders and farmers. It was in the 3d millennium that most
of the towns known in historical times came into existence. They became
centers of trade for Egyptian and Babylonian goods. During the 2d
millennium, Palestine was ruled by the Hyksos and by the Egyptians. Toward
the end of this period Moses led the Hebrew people (see Jews ) out of Egypt,
across the Sinai, and into Palestine.
Around 1200 BC, the Philistines ( "Sea Peoples" ) invaded the southern
coastland and established a powerful kingdom (see Philistia ). The Hebrews
were subject to the Philistines until c.1000 BC, when an independent Hebrew
kingdom was established under Saul , who was succeeded by David and then by
Solomon . After the expansionist reign of Solomon (c.950 BC), the kingdom
broke up into two states, Israel, with its capital at Samaria, and Judah,
under the house of David, with its capital at Jerusalem. The two kingdoms
were later conquered by expanding Mesopotamian states, Israel by Assyria
(c.720 BC) and Judah by Babylonia (586 BC).
In 539 BC the Persians conquered the Babylonians. The Jewish Temple,
destroyed by the Babylonians, was rebuilt (516 BC). Under Persian rule
Palestine enjoyed considerable autonomy. Alexander the Great of Macedon,
conquered Palestine in 333 BC His successors, the Ptolemies and Seleucids,
contested for Palestine. The attempt of the Seleucid Antiochus IV (Antiochus
Epiphanes) to impose Hellenism brought a Jewish revolt under the Maccabees ,
who set up a new Jewish state in 142 BC The state lasted until 63 BC, when
Pompey conquered Palestine for Rome.
Christianity and Islam
Palestine at the time of Jesus was ruled by puppet kings of the Romans,
the Herods (see Herod ). When the Jews revolted in AD 66, the Romans
destroyed the Temple (AD 70). Another revolt between AD 132 and 135 was also
suppressed (see Bar Kokba, Simon ), Jericho and Bethlehem were destroyed,
and the Jews were barred from Jerusalem. When Emperor Constantine converted
to Christianity (312), Palestine became a center of Christian pilgrimage,
and many Jews left the region. Palestine over the next few centuries
generally enjoyed peace and prosperity until it was conquered in 614 by the
Persians. It was recovered briefly by the Byzantine Romans, but fell to the
Muslim Arabs under caliph Umar by the year 640.
At this time (during the Umayyad rule), the importance of Palestine as a
holy place for Muslims was emphasized, and in 691 the Dome of the Rock was
erected on the site of the Temple of Solomon, which is claimed by Muslims to
have been the halting station of Muhammad on his journey to heaven. Close to
the Dome, the Aqsa mosque was built. In 750, Palestine passed to the Abbasid
caliphate, and this period was marked by unrest between factions that
favored the Umayyads and those who preferred the new rulers.
In the 9th cent., Palestine was conquered by the Fatimid dynasty, which
had risen to power in North Africa. The Fatimids had many enemies-the
Seljuks, Karmatians, Byzantines, and Bedouins-and Palestine became a
battlefield. Under the Fatimid caliph al Hakim (996-1021), the Christians
and Jews were harshly suppressed, and many churches were destroyed. In 1099,
Palestine was captured by the Crusaders (see Crusades ), who established the
Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem. The Crusaders were defeated by Saladin at the
battle of Hittin (1187), and the Latin Kingdom was ended; they were finally
driven out of Palestine by the Mamluks in 1291. Under Mamluk rule Palestine
declined.
Turkish Rule
In 1516 the Mamluks were defeated by the Ottoman Turks. The first three
centuries of Ottoman rule isolated Palestine from outside influence. In
1831, Muhammad Ali, the Egyptian viceroy nominally subject to the Ottoman
sultan, occupied Palestine. Under him and his son the region was opened to
European influence. Ottoman control was reasserted in 1840, but Western
influence continued. Among the many European settlements established, the
most significant in the long run were those of Jews, Russian Jews being the
first to come (1882).
Conflict between Arabs and Zionists
In the late 19th cent. the Zionist movement was founded (see Zionism )
with the goal of establishing a Jewish homeland in Palestine, and dozens of
Zionist colonies were founded there. At the start of the Zionist
colonization of Palestine in the late 19th cent., the rural people were Arab
peasants (fellahin). Most of the population were Muslims, but in the urban
areas there were sizable groups of Arab Christians (at Nazareth, Bethlehem,
and Jerusalem) and of Jews (at Zefat, Tiberias, Jerusalem, Jericho, and
Hebron).
At the same time Arab nationalism was developing in the Middle East in
opposition to Turkish rule. In World War I the British, with Arab aid,
gained control of Palestine. In the Balfour Declaration (1917) the British
promised Zionist leaders to aid the establishment of a Jewish "national
home" in Palestine, with due regard for the rights of non-Jewish
Palestinians. However, the British had also promised Arab leaders to support
the creation of independent Arab states. The Arabs believed Palestine was to
be among these, an intention that the British later denied.
In 1919 there were about 568,000 Muslims, 74,000 Christians, and 58,000
Jews in Palestine. The first Arab anti-Zionist riots occurred in Palestine
in 1920. The League of Nations approved the British mandate in 1922,
although the actual administration of the area had begun in 1920. As part of
the mandate Britain was given the responsibility for aiding the Jewish
homeland and fostering Jewish immigration there. The British stressed that
their policy to aid the homeland did not include making all Palestine the
homeland, but rather that such a home should exist within Palestine and that
there were economic limits on how many immigrants should be admitted (1922
White Paper).
In the 1920s, Jewish immigration was slight, but the Jewish communities
made great economic progress. In 1929 there was serious Jewish-Arab violence
occasioned by a clash at the Western, or Wailing, Wall in Jerusalem. A
British report found that Arabs feared the economic and political
consequences of continued Jewish immigration with its attendant land
purchases. Zionists were angered when a new White Paper (1930) urged
limiting immigration, but they were placated by Prime Minister Ramsay
MacDonald (1931).
The rise of Nazism in Europe during the 1930s led to a great increase in
immigration. Whereas there were about 5,000 immigrants authorized in 1932,
about 62,000 were authorized in 1935. Arabs conducted strikes and boycotts;
a general strike in 1936, organized by Haj Amin al Husayni, mufti of
Jerusalem, lasted six months. Some Arabs acquired weapons and formed a
guerrilla force. The Peel commission (1937), finding British promises to
Zionists and Arabs irreconcilable, declared the mandate unworkable and
recommended the partition of Palestine into Jewish, Arab, and British
(largely the holy places) mandatory states. The Zionists reluctantly
approved partition, but the Arabs rejected it, objecting particularly to the
proposal that the Arab population be forcibly transferred out of the
proposed Jewish state.
The British dropped the partition idea and announced a new policy (1939
White Paper). Fifteen thousand Jews a year would be allowed to immigrate for
the next five years, after which Jewish immigration would be subject to Arab
acquiescence; Jewish land purchases were to be restricted; and within 10
years an independent, binational Palestine would be established. The
Zionists were shocked by what they considered a betrayal of the Balfour
Declaration. The Arabs also rejected the plan, demanding instead the
immediate creation of an Arab Palestine, the prohibition of further
immigration, and a review of the status of all Jewish immigrants since 1918.
The outbreak of World War II prevented the implementation of the plan,
except for the restriction on land transfers. The Zionists and most Arabs
supported Britain in the war (although Haj Amin al Husayni was in Germany
and negotiated Palestine's future with Hitler), but tension inside Palestine
increased. The Haganah, a secret armed group organized by the Jewish Agency,
and the Irgun and the Stern Gang, terrorist groups, were active. British
officials were killed by the terrorists. The horrible plight of European
Jewry led influential forces in the United States to lobby for support of an
independent Jewish state, and President Truman requested that Britain permit
the admission of 100,000 Jews. Illegal immigration, often involving
survivors of Hitler's death camps, took place on a large scale. The
independent Arab states organized the Arab League to exert internationally
what pressure they could against the Zionists.
An Anglo-American commission recommended (1946) that Britain continue
administering Palestine, rescind the land-transfer restrictions, and admit
100,000 Jews, and that the underground Jewish armed groups be disbanded. A
plan for autonomy for Jews and Arabs within Palestine was discussed at a
London conference (1947) of British, Arabs, and Zionists, but no agreement
could be reached. The British, declaring their mandate unworkable and
despairing of finding a solution, turned the Palestine problem over to the
United Nations (Feb., 1947). At that time there were about 1,091,000
Muslims, 614,000 Jews, and 146,000 Christians in Palestine.
Patricia Heil
Yawn.
TheMan wrote:
>
lots of stupidity that sounds like it comes from Alex.>
yechidah
"TheMan" <nor...@noreply.com> wrote in message
news:scfMb.6676$Wa....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
The Creator created Israel with loving, fatherly intent, that it should
serve as the holiest dwelling place for His beneficience Shechinah, for the
Jewish people to serve Him and for the 70 Nations to glorify His name.
Anything else you cite is ENTIRELY missing the intent and purpose behind
creation of the Holy Land.
YS
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raven1
wrote:
>A lot of people still do not know the history of Israel. I used to condemn
>suicide bombing against the Israeli's being the once uninformed news viewer
>that I was and decided to read the history on how Israel was created. Thats
>when my opinion changed especially after reading the tripe the Zionists in
>the newsgroups had been posting.
So now you think it's OK to kill innocent civilians indiscriminately?
Wow, such candor is unusual.
Mike Painter
"raven1" <quotht...@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:2s4300d57mcdo908n...@4ax.com...
I'm sure he does not but he barely covered the facts that the terrorist
tactics were used against others by immigrants who wanted to form Israel.
Mike Painter
"yechidah" <TheHeal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ohfMb.3526$i4....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
> "TheMan" <nor...@noreply.com> wrote in message
> news:scfMb.6676$Wa....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> The Creator created Israel with loving, fatherly intent, that it should
> serve as the holiest dwelling place for His beneficience Shechinah, for
the
> Jewish people to serve Him and for the 70 Nations to glorify His name.
>
> Anything else you cite is ENTIRELY missing the intent and purpose behind
> creation of the Holy Land.
>
his people would be as numerous as grains of sand.
Incidentally, the promise was made to a tribe of people, not to a religious
sect.
yechidah
"Mike Painter" <mdotp...@att.net> wrote in message
news:yWhMb.16822$6y6.4...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> "yechidah" <TheHeal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:ohfMb.3526$i4....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> >
> > "TheMan" <nor...@noreply.com> wrote in message
> > news:scfMb.6676$Wa....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> >
> > The Creator created Israel with loving, fatherly intent, that it should
> > serve as the holiest dwelling place for His beneficience Shechinah, for
> the
> > Jewish people to serve Him and for the 70 Nations to glorify His name.
> >
> > Anything else you cite is ENTIRELY missing the intent and purpose behind
> > creation of the Holy Land.
> >
> Sure it did, but is it big enough. Several times this creature promised
that
> his people would be as numerous as grains of sand.
>
Do you not believe in action and re-action? That every action brings a
response? If we do what we are supposed to and keep the laws in the Torah
holy - i.e. not sin, desecrate the laws, then Hashem will bless us
continuously with abundance - as He promised.
Deuteronomy 11 13-17
And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto My
commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to
serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul, that I will give the
rain of your land in its season, the former rain and the latter rain, that
thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil. And I will give
grass in thy fields for thy cattle, and thou shalt eat and be satisfied.
Take heed to yourselves, lest your heart be deceived, and ye turn aside, and
serve other gods, and worship them; and the anger of the LORD be kindled
against you, and He shut up the heaven, so that there shall be no rain, and
the ground shall not yield her fruit; and ye perish quickly from off the
good land which the LORD giveth you.
> Incidentally, the promise was made to a tribe of people, not to a
religious
> sect.
Incidently which promise are you speaking of? There were many. Of the Land -
Hashem gave this promise through a Covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
and their descendents.
The Jewish people are those descendents.
raven1
wrote:
I'm sure he does. He said he "*used to* condemn suicide bombings
against the Israelis", which clearly means he no longer does so.
That's pretty straightforward, and, IMO, utterly depraved. The
deliberate murder of civilians is a crime against humanity no matter
who does it, regardless of the justness of their cause, and it is no
defense to advance a "Tu Quoque" argument on the behalf of the
perpetrators. Even if some Zionists advocated killing civilians, or
actually did so, whether for the purpose of establishing Israel, or
for whatever purpose imaginable, that is entirely irrelevant. It was
completely wrong then, and it's completely wrong now.
JTEM
"raven1" <quotht...@nevermore.com> wrote
> I'm sure he does. He said he "*used to* condemn suicide
> bombings against the Israelis", which clearly means he
> no longer does so. That's pretty straightforward, and,
> IMO, utterly depraved.
Certainly no more so than supporting Israel's military
occupation of the west bank.
There's really no way of getting around this. Israeli soldiers,
tanks, planes & helicopters are *Not* firing roses at the
Palestinians. Period.
Bill Smith
mention the truth or relevant facts in some places.
For instance: you mention the number of Arabs in Palestine faitly inflated.
You forget to mention that most of that number were left in Jordan occupied
West Bank and not under Israeli occupation.
But there is quite a bit of falsehood there too.
However, all of that does not matter.
The descendants of those exiled by the Romans want their land back. They
waited 2000 years.
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JTEM
"Bill Smith" <bsm...@hotmail.com> wrote
> The descendants of those exiled by the Romans want
> their land back. They waited 2000 years.
I'd like to see the credible DNA study that demonstrates:
1) The present day Jewish population of Israel is descended
from an ancient population of the region
2) The present Palestinian population is not.
Once this study is completed, with its results duplicated by
independent parties, we can then begin to discuss matters
within the framework you provided.
We'll have to do so indoors though, as the flying pigs so
numerous that they darken the sky will pose a significant
threat to personal hygiene.
Therion Ware
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 17:04:28 -0500 in alt.atheism, JTEM ("JTEM"
<gymr...@hotmail.com>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
Apparently Middle Eastern Jews and Palestinians are genetically almost
identical, though the conclusion has caused a bit of a fuss. Can't
think why....
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4307083-102275,00.html
You can download the paper that caused the fuss from
http://www.dangerouscitizen.com/Downloads/879.aspx
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
Mike Painter
>
> "Mike Painter" <mdotp...@att.net> wrote in message
> news:yWhMb.16822$6y6.4...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> >
> > "yechidah" <TheHeal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:ohfMb.3526$i4....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> > >
> > > "TheMan" <nor...@noreply.com> wrote in message
> > > news:scfMb.6676$Wa....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> > >
> > > The Creator created Israel with loving, fatherly intent, that it
should
> > > serve as the holiest dwelling place for His beneficience Shechinah,
for
> > the
> > > Jewish people to serve Him and for the 70 Nations to glorify His name.
> > >
> > > Anything else you cite is ENTIRELY missing the intent and purpose
behind
> > > creation of the Holy Land.
> > >
> > Sure it did, but is it big enough. Several times this creature promised
> that
> > his people would be as numerous as grains of sand.
> >
>
> Do you not believe in action and re-action? That every action brings a
> response? If we do what we are supposed to and keep the laws in the Torah
> holy - i.e. not sin, desecrate the laws, then Hashem will bless us
> continuously with abundance - as He promised.
But it's always in the future isn't it?
What sins did the people who died in the camps commit?
>
> Deuteronomy 11 13-17
>
> And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto My
> commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and
to
> serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul, that I will give
the
> rain of your land in its season, the former rain and the latter rain, that
> thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil. And I will
give
> grass in thy fields for thy cattle, and thou shalt eat and be satisfied.
> Take heed to yourselves, lest your heart be deceived, and ye turn aside,
and
> serve other gods, and worship them; and the anger of the LORD be kindled
> against you, and He shut up the heaven, so that there shall be no rain,
and
> the ground shall not yield her fruit; and ye perish quickly from off the
> good land which the LORD giveth you.
>
History shows the value of this promise.
>
> > Incidentally, the promise was made to a tribe of people, not to a
> religious
> > sect.
>
> Incidently which promise are you speaking of? There were many. Of the
Land -
> Hashem gave this promise through a Covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
> and their descendents.
All of them.
>
> The Jewish people are those descendents.
>
So all the Jews in the world are descendants of these tribes?
When the person who can trace their ancestry in China back thousands of
years converts and moves to Israel, they automatically become the descendant
of one of the tribes?
Sounds like the Mormons who baptize the dead relations of a new convert.
Sheldon Liberman
Mike Painter wrote:
> "yechidah" <TheHeal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:ohfMb.3526$i4....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
>>"TheMan" <nor...@noreply.com> wrote in message
>>news:scfMb.6676$Wa....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>
>>The Creator created Israel with loving, fatherly intent, that it should
>>serve as the holiest dwelling place for His beneficience Shechinah, for
>
> the
>
>>Jewish people to serve Him and for the 70 Nations to glorify His name.
>>
>>Anything else you cite is ENTIRELY missing the intent and purpose behind
>>creation of the Holy Land.
>>
>
> Sure it did, but is it big enough. Several times this creature promised that
> his people would be as numerous as grains of sand.
Read Deuteronomy. It wasn't meant as a head count.
>
> Incidentally, the promise was made to a tribe of people, not to a religious
> sect.
Except that there was no "religion" per se. Simply monotheism and paganism.
>
>
Susan Cohen
> wrote:
>
> >A lot of people still do not know the history of Israel.
Especially "TheMan"
I used to condemn
> >suicide bombing against the Israeli's being the once uninformed news
viewer
> >that I was and decided to read the history on how Israel was created.
Thats
> >when my opinion changed especially after reading the tripe the Zionists
in
> >the newsgroups had been posting.
>
> So now you think it's OK to kill innocent civilians indiscriminately?
> Wow, such candor is unusual.
Please, anyone who lies like he does - just in the post above - will believe
anything.
Susan
>
>
Susan Cohen
I'm sure he does because he's lying - just like you.
Susan
>
>
Susan Cohen
"JTEM" <gymr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:g_6dnfh04_d...@comcast.com...
>
> "raven1" <quotht...@nevermore.com> wrote
>
> > I'm sure he does. He said he "*used to* condemn suicide
> > bombings against the Israelis", which clearly means he
> > no longer does so. That's pretty straightforward, and,
> > IMO, utterly depraved.
>
> Certainly no more so than supporting Israel's military
> occupation of the west bank.
Only if you are rally *want* the PLO to kill every Jew they can find.
>
> There's really no way of getting around this.
Well, facts, logic & fairness would help.
Israeli soldiers,
> tanks, planes & helicopters are *Not* firing roses at the
> Palestinians.
That's because the Palestinians are shooting/throwing bombs/Molotov
cocktails/cinderblocs at Israelis.
> Period.
Not"period".
Unless you're trying to cover up something.
Susan
>
>
>
>
>
Susan Cohen
"Therion Ware" <autod...@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:7dj300tqutbm0t328...@4ax.com...
>
>
> On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 17:04:28 -0500 in alt.atheism, JTEM ("JTEM"
> <gymr...@hotmail.com>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
>
>
>
> >
> >"Bill Smith" <bsm...@hotmail.com> wrote
> >
> >> The descendants of those exiled by the Romans want
> >> their land back. They waited 2000 years.
> >
> >I'd like to see the credible DNA study that demonstrates:
> >
> >1) The present day Jewish population of Israel is descended
> >from an ancient population of the region
> >
> >2) The present Palestinian population is not.
> >
> >Once this study is completed, with its results duplicated by
> >independent parties, we can then begin to discuss matters
> >within the framework you provided.
> >
> >We'll have to do so indoors though, as the flying pigs so
> >numerous that they darken the sky will pose a significant
> >threat to personal hygiene.
> >
>
> Apparently Middle Eastern Jews and Palestinians are genetically almost
> identical,
No, not really.
> though the conclusion has caused a bit of a fuss. Can't
> think why....
Most likely because of the unscholarly nature of the "findings."
>
> http://observer.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4307083-102275,00.html
Yes, this article outlines the very problems with the "scholars."
Not only do they insert politics into the paper, but religion as well.
I won't debate their personal opinions about the politics they insert, but
their outright lies abourt Judaism are despicable in people who call
themselves "scholars" or "scientists."
People this unprofessional & biased cannot be trusted to be truthful about
their "findings."
Susan
JGB
> "yechidah" <TheHeal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:ohfMb.3526$i4....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> >
> > "TheMan" <nor...@noreply.com> wrote in message
> > news:scfMb.6676$Wa....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> >
> > The Creator created Israel with loving, fatherly intent, that it should
> > serve as the holiest dwelling place for His beneficience Shechinah, for
> the
> > Jewish people to serve Him and for the 70 Nations to glorify His name.
> >
> > Anything else you cite is ENTIRELY missing the intent and purpose behind
> > creation of the Holy Land.
> Sure it did, but is it big enough. Several times this creature promised that
> his people would be as numerous as grains of sand.<
Avram means "great father" in Hebrew, and he is considered the biblical
father of the Hebrews, the Ishmaelite Arabs, and other nations from his
last wife Keturah.
> Incidentally, the promise was made to a tribe of people, not to a religious
> sect.<
IN a sense Abraham was the first monotheist, or "hanif" as the Arabs
would put it. But via Sarah through Isaac and Jacob came the Hebrews.
Via Hagar and Ishmael came the Arabs, and via Keturah came others. The
latter groups were alloted lands surrounding Canaan according to the bible.
JTEM
"Susan Cohen" <fla...@verizon.net> wrote
> > Certainly no more so than supporting Israel's military
> > occupation of the west bank.
> Only if you are rally *want* the PLO to kill every Jew
> they can find.
If Israel pulled put (like it should have 37 years ago),
they wouldn't be able to find any.
*Duh*!
Jon
<gymr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yet you don't seem to care at all when an Arab country like Jordan
occupies the west bank.. why is that?
--
Jon
yechidah
With the ones who are circumcised on the 8th day. The Ishmaelites circumcise
theirs on the 13th day.
>
> >
> > The Jewish people are those descendents.
> >
> So all the Jews in the world are descendants of these tribes?
Yes. Now the tribes are returning to the Land. This process is called
Ingathering of the Exiles.
> When the person who can trace their ancestry in China back thousands of
> years converts and moves to Israel, they automatically become the
descendant
> of one of the tribes?
If their mother is Jewish, they are a Member of the Tribe (of Judah).
> Sounds like the Mormons who baptize the dead relations of a new convert.
Nothing even remotely close.
Therion Ware
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 23:45:48 GMT in alt.atheism, Susan Cohen ("Susan
Cohen" <fla...@verizon.net>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
>
>"Therion Ware" <autod...@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
>news:7dj300tqutbm0t328...@4ax.com...
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 17:04:28 -0500 in alt.atheism, JTEM ("JTEM"
>> <gymr...@hotmail.com>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>> >"Bill Smith" <bsm...@hotmail.com> wrote
>> >
>> >> The descendants of those exiled by the Romans want
>> >> their land back. They waited 2000 years.
>> >
>> >I'd like to see the credible DNA study that demonstrates:
>> >
>> >1) The present day Jewish population of Israel is descended
>> >from an ancient population of the region
>> >
>> >2) The present Palestinian population is not.
>> >
>> >Once this study is completed, with its results duplicated by
>> >independent parties, we can then begin to discuss matters
>> >within the framework you provided.
>> >
>> >We'll have to do so indoors though, as the flying pigs so
>> >numerous that they darken the sky will pose a significant
>> >threat to personal hygiene.
>> >
>>
>> Apparently Middle Eastern Jews and Palestinians are genetically almost
>> identical,
>
>No, not really.
There are studies that show significant genetic differences?
>> though the conclusion has caused a bit of a fuss. Can't
>> think why....
>
>Most likely because of the unscholarly nature of the "findings."
>
>>
>> http://observer.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4307083-102275,00.html
>
>Yes, this article outlines the very problems with the "scholars."
>Not only do they insert politics into the paper, but religion as well.
>I won't debate their personal opinions about the politics they insert, but
>their outright lies abourt Judaism are despicable in people who call
>themselves "scholars" or "scientists."
Unfortunately the article doesn't really get in to the specifics.
There's quite an interesting article about the matter here
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/reprint/326/7401/1262.pdf
>People this unprofessional & biased cannot be trusted to be truthful about
>their "findings."
One imagines it's problematic to trust the opinion of, anyone, with a
vested interest in the outcome of such a study. That said, in so far
as I'm aware, the basis for the objections were not related to the
science of the paper.
>Susan
>
>>
>> You can download the paper that caused the fuss from
>> http://www.dangerouscitizen.com/Downloads/879.aspx
>> --
>
--
Al Klein
posted to alt.atheism:
>*Duh*!
The Palestinians want every Jew out of Israel.
Duh!
--
"I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the
type of which we are conscious in ourselves. An individual who should survive his
physical death is also beyond my comprehension,...; such notions are for the fears or
absurd egoism of feeble souls."
- Albert Einstein
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
TheMan
"Patricia Heil" <pjay...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:40017E85...@erols.com...
>
>
> Yawn.
>
> TheMan wrote:
> >
> lots of stupidity that sounds like it comes from Alex.>
Ahahaha, you know when the fucking truth HURTS when you zionists say "Yawn"
or something similar.
No comment Zionists?? This is HISTORY... you can't change it
-TheMan-
TheMan
Quote: "The Haganah, a secret armed group organized by the Jewish Agency,
and the Irgun and the Stern Gang, terrorist groups, were active. British
officials were killed by the terrorists."
Comment please.
-TheMan-
LP
The haven all memes depend on reaching is the human mind, but a human
mind is itself an artifact created when memes restructure a human
brain in order to make it a better habitat for memes. The avenues for
entry and departure are modified to suit local conditions, and
strengthened by various artificial devices that enhance fidelity and
prolixity of replication: native Chinese minds differ dramatically
from native French minds, and literate minds differ from illiterate
minds. What memes provide in return to the organisms in which they
reside is an incalculable store of advantages --- with some Trojan
horses thrown in for good measure. . .
Daniel Dennett, Consciousness Explained
For a description of these "Trojan horses" and how they relate to
religious memes, visit:
Viruses of the Mind, by Richard Dawkins
http://cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/Dawkins/viruses-of-the-mind.html
JTEM
"Jon" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote
> Yet you don't seem to care at all when an Arab
> country like Jordan occupies the west bank..
> why is that?
They didn't occupy it. That's your fantasy, your excuse
for the ethnic cleansing that you endorse.
Jordan governed the west bank, the people of the west
bank. Unlike Israel, it did not lay claim to the land and
slaughter anyone who refused to leave their homes in
order to make way for settlements.
JTEM
"Al Klein" <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote
> The Palestinians want every Jew out of Israel.
And?
Go on. This justifies 37 years of military occupation
and ethnic cleansing?
Answer: No it does not.
Sheldon Liberman
Why not? Anti-Semites have been trying to re-write Jewish history for
over 3000 years.
> -TheMan-
>
>
Douglas Berry
called by some "TheMan" <nor...@noreply.com> came forth and told
this tale in alt.atheism
> An Anglo-American commission recommended (1946) that Britain continue
>administering Palestine, rescind the land-transfer restrictions, and admit
>100,000 Jews, and that the underground Jewish armed groups be disbanded. A
>plan for autonomy for Jews and Arabs within Palestine was discussed at a
>London conference (1947) of British, Arabs, and Zionists, but no agreement
>could be reached. The British, declaring their mandate unworkable and
>despairing of finding a solution, turned the Palestine problem over to the
>United Nations (Feb., 1947). At that time there were about 1,091,000
>Muslims, 614,000 Jews, and 146,000 Christians in Palestine.
Interesting. Why stop here?
You leave out the plan that gave the Palestinians a state, a plan that
*they* rejected, instead prefering war to push the Jews into the sea.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00ps0
Which didn't work. Instead, Israel expanded. A pattern repeated
throughout the Arab-Israeli Wars.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Ezekiel 13:20 "Wherefore thus saith the
Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows"
ShrikeBack
raven1
wrote:
>
>"raven1" <quotht...@nevermore.com> wrote
>
>> I'm sure he does. He said he "*used to* condemn suicide
>> bombings against the Israelis", which clearly means he
>> no longer does so. That's pretty straightforward, and,
>> IMO, utterly depraved.
>
>Certainly no more so than supporting Israel's military
>occupation of the west bank.
I don't recall saying that I did.
In any case, that *completely* misses my point (which you snipped):
"The deliberate murder of civilians is a crime against humanity no
matter who does it, regardless of the justness of their cause, and it
is no defense to advance a "Tu Quoque" argument on the behalf of the
perpetrators.
>There's really no way of getting around this. Israeli soldiers,
>tanks, planes & helicopters are *Not* firing roses at the
>Palestinians. Period.
Again, re-read the part that you had snipped before.
raven1
wrote:
Sure: go back and look for anywhere I suggested that I would support
such things on *anyone's* part. You won't find it. As I said in
response to Mike Painter later in the thread: "The deliberate murder
Martin Thomas
"yechidah" <TheHeal...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>"Mike Painter" <mdotp...@att.net> wrote in message
>news:yWhMb.16822$6y6.4...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>>
>> "yechidah" <TheHeal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:ohfMb.3526$i4....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>> >
>> > "TheMan" <nor...@noreply.com> wrote in message
>> > news:scfMb.6676$Wa....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> >
>> > The Creator created Israel with loving, fatherly intent, that it should
>> > serve as the holiest dwelling place for His beneficience Shechinah, for
>> the
>> > Jewish people to serve Him and for the 70 Nations to glorify His name.
>> >
>> > Anything else you cite is ENTIRELY missing the intent and purpose behind
>> > creation of the Holy Land.
>> >
>> Sure it did, but is it big enough. Several times this creature promised
>that
>> his people would be as numerous as grains of sand.
>>
>
>Do you not believe in action and re-action? That every action brings a
>response? If we do what we are supposed to and keep the laws in the Torah
>holy - i.e. not sin, desecrate the laws, then Hashem will bless us
>continuously with abundance - as He promised.
Then what actions resulted in the almost continuous warfare,
which is what you are actually dealing with?
-
Martin Thomas
Official "Teddy Bear" Atheist
mart...@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net
TheMan
> On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 19:56:35 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mdotp...@att.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"raven1" <quotht...@nevermore.com> wrote in message
> >news:2s4300d57mcdo908n...@4ax.com...
> >> On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 16:53:44 GMT, "TheMan" <nor...@noreply.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >A lot of people still do not know the history of Israel. I used to
> >condemn
> >> >suicide bombing against the Israeli's being the once uninformed news
> >viewer
> >> >that I was and decided to read the history on how Israel was created.
> >Thats
> >> >when my opinion changed especially after reading the tripe the
Zionists
> >in
> >> >the newsgroups had been posting.
> >>
> >> So now you think it's OK to kill innocent civilians indiscriminately?
> >> Wow, such candor is unusual.
> >
> >tactics were used against others by immigrants who wanted to form Israel.
>
> against the Israelis", which clearly means he no longer does so.
> That's pretty straightforward, and, IMO, utterly depraved.
a) Do you condemn this: "The Haganah, a secret armed group organized by the
Jewish Agency,
and the Irgun and the Stern Gang, terrorist groups, were active. British
officials were killed by the terrorists"
b) Do you condemn the Israeli Army for killing Palestinian Civilians and
running over US protestors with bulldozers?
c) Do you realise that the Israeli's kill 3 times as many PALESTINIAN
CIVLIANS, then the Palestinian "terrorists" kill Israeli civilians, and do
you condemn them for that.
Will be waiting eagerly for the typical zionist jewish excuse that there is
one rule for you, one for everyone else.
-TheMan-
Ernest
Good and accurate info for the history upto circa 1946,
but does not cover the developments since then. Both
sides have strong historical arguements to their having
control of Palestine whose boundaries varied greatly over
the centuries. What is of contention today is the territory
ceded to Israel by Jordan after Israel stopped the Jordanese
invasion of Israel.
Personally I think the issue could be worked out once the
Palestinian leaders stop declaring, and teaching people,
that the total destruction of Israel is the only solution that
they will fully accept.
Ernest
Mike Painter
"Susan Cohen" <fla...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:s3lMb.6624$sb3....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
Then so is the rest of history.
TheMan
"Bill Smith" <bsm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4001...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> TheMan: That history is the official PLO version and it merely forgets to
> mention the truth or relevant facts in some places.
> For instance: you mention the number of Arabs in Palestine faitly
inflated.
> You forget to mention that most of that number were left in Jordan
occupied
> West Bank and not under Israeli occupation.
> But there is quite a bit of falsehood there too.
> However, all of that does not matter.
> The descendants of those exiled by the Romans want their land back. They
> waited 2000 years.
You talk a load of shit, all this history came from www.encyclopedia.com,
are you telling me it's a secret Hamas terrorist front. Must be a big
conspiracy!! Those awful Palestinians have hacked into this website and
changed history to make the Jews sound bad.
Also please provide proof that the Jewish illegal immigrants from Europe are
descendants of Palestine. You can't, Jews claim Israel based on religion,
many if not most probably had no relatives whatsoever come from ancient
Palestine.
-TheMan-
Mike Painter
>
>
>
>
> With the ones who are circumcised on the 8th day. The Ishmaelites
circumcise
> theirs on the 13th day.
And they got the custom from Egypt.
> >
> > >
> > > The Jewish people are those descendents.
> > >
> > So all the Jews in the world are descendants of these tribes?
>
>
> Yes. Now the tribes are returning to the Land. This process is called
> Ingathering of the Exiles.
>
>
> > When the person who can trace their ancestry in China back thousands of
> > years converts and moves to Israel, they automatically become the
> descendant
> > of one of the tribes?
>
> If their mother is Jewish, they are a Member of the Tribe (of Judah).
>
> > Sounds like the Mormons who baptize the dead relations of a new convert.
>
> Nothing even remotely close.
Very close, you are claiming that as soon as a woman with *no*
demonstratable relation to one of the tribes mentioned in the bible
converts, then they are descendants of a tribe.
One minute your Chinese for 4000 years and the next you are a member of a
tribe from the mid East.
Jon
<gymr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Jon" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote
>
> > Yet you don't seem to care at all when an Arab
> > country like Jordan occupies the west bank..
> > why is that?
>
> They didn't occupy it. That's your fantasy, your excuse
> for the ethnic cleansing that you endorse.
So how come the WB Palestinians revolted against Jordan? I make no
excuses I simply ask you why do YOU excuse Jordan while condemning
Israel for the same act?
--
Jon
yechidah
>
> "yechidah" <TheHeal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:7amMb.4293$i4....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > With the ones who are circumcised on the 8th day. The Ishmaelites
> circumcise
> > theirs on the 13th day.
>
> And they got the custom from Egypt.
>
The first Jew to be circumcised, Abraham received the instruction from God.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > The Jewish people are those descendents.
> > > >
> > > So all the Jews in the world are descendants of these tribes?
> >
> >
> > Yes. Now the tribes are returning to the Land. This process is called
> > Ingathering of the Exiles.
> >
> >
> > > When the person who can trace their ancestry in China back thousands
of
> > > years converts and moves to Israel, they automatically become the
> > descendant
> > > of one of the tribes?
> >
> > If their mother is Jewish, they are a Member of the Tribe (of Judah).
> >
> > > Sounds like the Mormons who baptize the dead relations of a new
convert.
> >
> > Nothing even remotely close.
>
> Very close, you are claiming that as soon as a woman with *no*
> demonstratable relation to one of the tribes mentioned in the bible
> converts, then they are descendants of a tribe.
Yes, because of the Jewish soul she receives, or a man receives at the time
of their Orthodox conversion. It is taught that every single soul of future
converts of the world were present at Sinai at the giving of the Torah to
the Jewish people.
> One minute your Chinese for 4000 years and the next you are a member of a
> tribe from the mid East.
The soul lives through reincarnation and migrates. This is one of the tenets
of our 13 principles. It is easy for a soul to be a chinese person in one
life and a hindu or a Jew in the next. It is also possible for a person to
devolve spiritually and reincarnate into an animal.
YS
>
>
>
>
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.542 / Virus Database: 336 - Release Date: 11/19/03
TheMan
> >
> > "raven1" <quotht...@nevermore.com> wrote in message
> > news:2s4300d57mcdo908n...@4ax.com...
> > > On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 16:53:44 GMT, "TheMan" <nor...@noreply.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >A lot of people still do not know the history of Israel. I used to
> > condemn
> > > >suicide bombing against the Israeli's being the once uninformed news
> > viewer
> > > >that I was and decided to read the history on how Israel was created.
> > Thats
> > > >when my opinion changed especially after reading the tripe the
Zionists
> > in
> > > >the newsgroups had been posting.
> > >
> > > So now you think it's OK to kill innocent civilians indiscriminately?
> > > Wow, such candor is unusual.
> >
> > I'm sure he does not but he barely covered the facts that the terrorist
> > tactics were used against others by immigrants who wanted to form
Israel.
>
> I'm sure he does because he's lying - just like you.
Quote from the history of Palestine:
"The Haganah, a secret armed group organized by the Jewish Agency,
and the Irgun and the Stern Gang, terrorist groups, were active. British
officials were killed by the terrorists. "
Now who's lying Jew, me and history, or you and your Zionist fantasy's?
-TheMan-
raven1
wrote:
>
>Now who's lying Jew, me and history, or you and your Zionist fantasy's?
Your choice of words and phrasing reveals quite a bit about your
personal bigotry, and I speak as neither a Jew, a Zionist, nor even a
particular supporter of Israel.
JTEM
"raven1" <quotht...@nevermore.com> wrote
> >Certainly no more so than supporting Israel's military
> >occupation of the west bank.
> I don't recall saying that I did.
You didn't. I was simply highlighting that fact, for the
benefit of any who might require these things to be
spelled out for them.
> In any case, that *completely* misses my point
> (which you snipped):
It doesn't miss your point at all.
Ethnic cleansing invites a violent response. Israel can't
do what it's doing, and pretend that they didn't expect
violence. The violence was welcomed. It was accepted.
The body count in the west bank amounts to one giant
"acceptable loss," as far is Israel is concerned.
Someone might have been able to feign ignorance a
few decades ago, but that time is long since over.
> "The deliberate murder of civilians is a crime against
> humanity no matter who does it,
You can't send tanks into residential neighborhoods, or
fire missiles into buildings located in crowded urban
areas, and pretend that you're surprised by the civilian
casualties, that you didn't know you'd be killing any
innocent civilians.
Innocent Palestinian women & children have been gunned
down by soldiers for everything from throwing rocks at
tanks to buying food at the wrong time.
This isn't a "surpise," this is a given. Such casualties are
unaviodable under the given circumstances, and fully
accepted by Israel.
JTEM
"Jon" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote
> So how come the WB Palestinians revolted against
> Jordan?
There's been numerous examples of citizens rebelling
against their government, too numerous to list here.
The Palestinians were citizens of Jordan.
Stop inventing excuses for your support of ethnic cleansing.
The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe
wrote:
>
Suzy Cohen isn't even a jew. She's an Irish convert who just thinks
she's a jew.
The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe
<flav...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>"Therion Ware" <autod...@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
>news:7dj300tqutbm0t328...@4ax.com...
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 17:04:28 -0500 in alt.atheism, JTEM ("JTEM"
>> <gymr...@hotmail.com>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>> >"Bill Smith" <bsm...@hotmail.com> wrote
>> >
>> >> The descendants of those exiled by the Romans want
>> >> their land back. They waited 2000 years.
>> >
>> >I'd like to see the credible DNA study that demonstrates:
>> >
>> >1) The present day Jewish population of Israel is descended
>> >from an ancient population of the region
>> >
>> >2) The present Palestinian population is not.
>> >
>> >Once this study is completed, with its results duplicated by
>> >independent parties, we can then begin to discuss matters
>> >within the framework you provided.
>> >
>> >We'll have to do so indoors though, as the flying pigs so
>> >numerous that they darken the sky will pose a significant
>> >threat to personal hygiene.
>> >
>>
>> Apparently Middle Eastern Jews and Palestinians are genetically almost
>> identical,
>
>No, not really.
Real jews, not converts like you, Suzy. You're genetically almost
identical to the boghoppers of Tipperary.
raven1
wrote:
>
>"raven1" <quotht...@nevermore.com> wrote
>
>> >Certainly no more so than supporting Israel's military
>> >occupation of the west bank.
>
>> I don't recall saying that I did.
>
>You didn't. I was simply highlighting that fact, for the
>benefit of any who might require these things to be
>spelled out for them.
>
>> In any case, that *completely* misses my point
>> (which you snipped):
>
>It doesn't miss your point at all.
>
>Ethnic cleansing invites a violent response.
So does "genocide", which is another completely hyperbolic term I have
often heard inappropriately applied to the situation. It's hard to
even begin to discuss the issues when they're so obfuscated by a cloud
of rhetoric. The casualties on either side don't even come close to
warranting the use of either expression.
> Israel can't
>do what it's doing, and pretend that they didn't expect
>violence.
And playing Devil's Advocate for the moment, just what the hell do the
Palestinians expect in response to continual attacks against Israeli
civilians?
Personally, my reaction to both sides is straight out of Shakespeare:
"a plague on both your houses!". Obviously neither side has any
interest whatsoever in peace, but realistically the Palestinians need
to take a lesson from the IRA and realize that when one is in a
position of weakness, blowing up innocents will not bring world
opinion to your side, nor will it bring peace.
Jon
<gymr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Jon" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote
>
> > So how come the WB Palestinians revolted against
> > Jordan?
>
> There's been numerous examples of citizens rebelling
> against their government, too numerous to list here.
Is that supposed to be an answer? WB Palestinians clearly did
appreciate being occupied by Jordan.
--
Jon
Jon
<quotht...@nevermore.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 16:18:29 -0500, "JTEM" <gymr...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"raven1" <quotht...@nevermore.com> wrote
> >
> >> I'm sure he does. He said he "*used to* condemn suicide
> >> bombings against the Israelis", which clearly means he
> >> no longer does so. That's pretty straightforward, and,
> >> IMO, utterly depraved.
> >
> >Certainly no more so than supporting Israel's military
> >occupation of the west bank.
>
> I don't recall saying that I did.
>
> In any case, that *completely* misses my point (which you snipped):
Get used to it raven .. this guys specialises in snipping out arguments
then inventing his own strawman to knock down.. he likes tangents a lot
too.
--
Jon
Mr. Elephant
> suicide bombing against the Israeli's being the once uninformed news viewer
> that I was and decided to read the history on how Israel was created.
You support suicide bombing against kids. Nice.
Run along puppy, it's not their fault you have no life.
Regards,
Tex
http://whackingday.com
Susan Cohen
"Al Klein" <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:b5u300tnghatt73n4...@Pern.rk...
> On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 19:03:01 -0500, "JTEM" <gymr...@hotmail.com>
> posted to alt.atheism:
>
> >
> >"Susan Cohen" <fla...@verizon.net> wrote
> >
> >> > Certainly no more so than supporting Israel's military
> >> > occupation of the west bank.
> >
> >> they can find.
> >
> >If Israel pulled put (like it should have 37 years ago),
> >they wouldn't be able to find any.
>
> >*Duh*!
>
No, they want every Jew dead.
& it's horrifying how even well-meaning otherwise educated people fall for
their propaganda.
It is, I have come to see, a cultural gap.
They just can't believe that people would destroy themselves over hate, & so
they say "Of course they are desperate & oppressed!"
Susan
>
> Duh!
Susan Cohen
"ShrikeBack" <hewpi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:59b8bc96.04011...@posting.google.com...
Like Israel didn't go in because the PLO was killing Jews inside Israel.
Susan
Susan Cohen
>
>
> On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 23:45:48 GMT in alt.atheism, Susan Cohen ("Susan
> Cohen" <fla...@verizon.net>) said, directing the reply to
> alt.atheism
>
>
>
> >
> >"Therion Ware" <autod...@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
> >news:7dj300tqutbm0t328...@4ax.com...
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 17:04:28 -0500 in alt.atheism, JTEM ("JTEM"
> >> <gymr...@hotmail.com>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"Bill Smith" <bsm...@hotmail.com> wrote
> >> >
> >> >> The descendants of those exiled by the Romans want
> >> >> their land back. They waited 2000 years.
> >> >
> >> >I'd like to see the credible DNA study that demonstrates:
> >> >
> >> >1) The present day Jewish population of Israel is descended
> >> >from an ancient population of the region
> >> >
> >> >2) The present Palestinian population is not.
> >> >
> >> >Once this study is completed, with its results duplicated by
> >> >independent parties, we can then begin to discuss matters
> >> >within the framework you provided.
> >> >
> >> >We'll have to do so indoors though, as the flying pigs so
> >> >numerous that they darken the sky will pose a significant
> >> >threat to personal hygiene.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Apparently Middle Eastern Jews and Palestinians are genetically almost
> >> identical,
> >
> >No, not really.
>
I'll have to look it up, but I recall that yes, there are.
>
> >> though the conclusion has caused a bit of a fuss. Can't
> >> think why....
> >
> >Most likely because of the unscholarly nature of the "findings."
> >
> >>
> >> http://observer.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4307083-102275,00.html
> >
> >Yes, this article outlines the very problems with the "scholars."
> >Not only do they insert politics into the paper, but religion as well.
> >I won't debate their personal opinions about the politics they insert,
but
> >their outright lies abourt Judaism are despicable in people who call
> >themselves "scholars" or "scientists."
>
> Unfortunately the article doesn't really get in to the specifics.
Sur it does!! It describes all the things I pointed out above!!
> There's quite an interesting article about the matter here
> http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/reprint/326/7401/1262.pdf
I get a blank screen.
>
> >People this unprofessional & biased cannot be trusted to be truthful
about
> >their "findings."
>
> One imagines it's problematic to trust the opinion of, anyone, with a
> vested interest in the outcome of such a study. That said, in so far
> as I'm aware, the basis for the objections were not related to the
> science of the paper.
Except for the points I raised that were outlined in the article.
Susan
Susan Cohen
"Sheldon Liberman" <sheldon....@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:40020374...@sympatico.ca...
>
>
> TheMan wrote:
> > "Patricia Heil" <pjay...@erols.com> wrote in message
> > news:40017E85...@erols.com...
> >
> >>
> >>Yawn.
> >>
> >>TheMan wrote:
> >>
> >>lots of stupidity that sounds like it comes from Alex.>
> >
> >
> > Ahahaha, you know when the fucking truth HURTS when you zionists say
"Yawn"
> > or something similar.
> >
> > No comment Zionists?? This is HISTORY... you can't change it
> >
>
> Why not?
Because we have no need to.
Anti-Semites have been trying to re-write Jewish history for
> over 3000 years.
Oh, of course, yes- we'll have to change that little fact.
Susan
>
> > -TheMan-
> >
> >
>
Susan Cohen
>
> Personally, my reaction to both sides is straight out of Shakespeare:
> "a plague on both your houses!". Obviously neither side has any
> interest whatsoever in peace,
How can you say this in the face of all the agreements that Israel has
signed and begun to implement, only to have the PLO renege on them???
Susan
Susan Cohen
> On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 01:59:50 GMT, "TheMan" <nor...@noreply.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Quote: "The Haganah, a secret armed group organized by the Jewish Agency,
> >and the Irgun and the Stern Gang, terrorist groups, were active. British
> >officials were killed by the terrorists."
> >
> >Comment please.
>
> Sure: go back and look for anywhere I suggested that I would support
> such things on *anyone's* part.
Except that the "British Officials" were not civilians; they were military
targets.
Susan
Therion Ware
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 09:31:40 GMT in alt.atheism, Susan Cohen ("Susan
I'd be interested to see them.
>> >> though the conclusion has caused a bit of a fuss. Can't
>> >> think why....
>> >
>> >Most likely because of the unscholarly nature of the "findings."
>> >
>> >>
>> >> http://observer.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4307083-102275,00.html
>> >
>> >Yes, this article outlines the very problems with the "scholars."
>> >Not only do they insert politics into the paper, but religion as well.
>> >I won't debate their personal opinions about the politics they insert, but
>> >their outright lies abourt Judaism are despicable in people who call
>> >themselves "scholars" or "scientists."
>>
>> Unfortunately the article doesn't really get in to the specifics.
>
>Sur it does!! It describes all the things I pointed out above!!
What, a mention the use of the terms "concentration camps" and
"colonists"? I really don't think that's enough. As you may be aware
opinion varies with respect to what's currently going on in that part
of the world, and is, to put it mildly, quite polarised.
>> There's quite an interesting article about the matter here
>> http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/reprint/326/7401/1262.pdf
>
>I get a blank screen.
Presumably a problem with your PDF plug-in, or connection, or both.
Worth another try, honest. You can probably get around the problem by
going here
http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/access_simple_form.html
and entering the url above. This should give you the article in HTML.
The final paragraph says:
Consequences and conclusions
Journal publishing is a human process, vulnerable to
human errors.When a mishap occurs the best policy is
to admit to the lapse, offer apologies,and make the
records available for scrutiny. Secrecy and stonewalling
will only increase suspicions. Although I sent several
emails to the society and the editor in chief asking
them to explain their processes and offer their side of
the story,neither provided any further information
other than that already quoted.
All those involved in journal publishing can learn
from this experience as there is no single model of
peer review or editing that is appropriate for all
journals.However,each editorial office should have
written procedures for peer review and copyediting
that are available to all editors,including guest editors.
Dissemination of detailed information about editorial
processes may help prevent possible errors from
having serious consequences that led to the ***retraction of a peer
reviewed article for reasons unrelated to science***.
But nobody has come through the controversy completely
unscathed. (my emphasis).
>> >People this unprofessional & biased cannot be trusted to be truthful about
>> >their "findings."
Well, I'd be a good deal happier if the objections to the paper were
spelled out.
>> One imagines it's problematic to trust the opinion of, anyone, with a
>> vested interest in the outcome of such a study. That said, in so far
>> as I'm aware, the basis for the objections were not related to the
>> science of the paper.
>
>Except for the points I raised that were outlined in the article.
Which were to do with politics, terminology, and not the science. It
appears to me that you're saying that if the authors of a scientific
paper don't share your religio-political views, then their science is
automatically invalid.
I don't suppose you've come across one Jason Gastrich?
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
randum_proser
"TheMan" <nor...@noreply.com> wrote in message
news:scfMb.6676$Wa....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> A lot of people still do not know the history of Israel. I used to condemn
> suicide bombing against the Israeli's being the once uninformed news
viewer
> that I was and decided to read the history on how Israel was created.
So you think terrorist attacks (against citizens) are justified? Or do you
just condone them?
-
http://randomprose.journalspace.com
Steel Golem
>
> "Therion Ware" <autod...@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
> news:7dj300tqutbm0t328...@4ax.com...
> >
> >
> > On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 17:04:28 -0500 in alt.atheism, JTEM ("JTEM"
> > <gymr...@hotmail.com>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >"Bill Smith" <bsm...@hotmail.com> wrote
> > >
> > >> The descendants of those exiled by the Romans want
> > >> their land back. They waited 2000 years.
> > >
> > >I'd like to see the credible DNA study that demonstrates:
> > >
> > >1) The present day Jewish population of Israel is descended
> > >from an ancient population of the region
> > >
> > >2) The present Palestinian population is not.
> > >
> > >Once this study is completed, with its results duplicated by
> > >independent parties, we can then begin to discuss matters
> > >within the framework you provided.
> > >
> > >We'll have to do so indoors though, as the flying pigs so
> > >numerous that they darken the sky will pose a significant
> > >threat to personal hygiene.
> > >
> >
> > Apparently Middle Eastern Jews and Palestinians are genetically almost
> > identical,
>
> No, not really.
WTF does "No, not really." mean, even studies done by the Hebrew University
show the only real difference between the two groups is religious
ideology...they also show that Palestinian Arabs and Sheparic Jews are far
more closely related to each other than either is to the Askenazi...
>
> > though the conclusion has caused a bit of a fuss. Can't
> > think why....
>
> Most likely because of the unscholarly nature of the "findings."
Unscholary nature? You mean the politcal bias in one of the journals? The
science wasn't incorrect
"I have seen the paper ("The origin of Palestinians and their genetic
relatedness with other Mediterranean populations (Human Immunology.
62(9):889-900, 2001)). As you know, the scientific findings are in good
agreement with earlier reports, including studies done in my own lab.
However, I don't know if you have seen the paper, but it is muddled with
politics all over. I think we should all agree, politics has absolutely no
place in a scientific journal."
Ariella Oppenheim, PhD
Hebrew University-Hadassah Medical School
http://ambassadors.net/archives/issue11/opinions2.htm
>
> >
> > http://observer.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4307083-102275,00.html
>
> Yes, this article outlines the very problems with the "scholars."
> Not only do they insert politics into the paper, but religion as well.
> I won't debate their personal opinions about the politics they insert, but
> their outright lies abourt Judaism are despicable in people who call
> themselves "scholars" or "scientists."
>
> People this unprofessional & biased cannot be trusted to be truthful about
> their "findings."
Except the findings DO agree with those also done by Jewish
scientists...wonder if they were lying as well...see the quote above.
>
> Susan
>
> >
> > You can download the paper that caused the fuss from
> > http://www.dangerouscitizen.com/Downloads/879.aspx
> > --
>
>
Elroy Willis
> TheMan wrote:
>> Patricia Heil <pjay...@erols.com> wrote in message
>>> Yawn.
>>> TheMan wrote:
>>> lots of stupidity that sounds like it comes from Alex.>
>> Ahahaha, you know when the fucking truth HURTS when you zionists say "Yawn"
>> or something similar.
>> No comment Zionists?? This is HISTORY... you can't change it
> Why not? Anti-Semites have been trying to re-write Jewish history for
> over 3000 years.
Not just them, but the white supremacists as well.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
Lars Eighner
In our last episode,
<40028...@news.iprimus.com.au>,
the lovely and talented randum_proser
broadcast on alt.atheism:
No theocracy has a right to exist. No state based on apartheid has a
right to exist. Oppressed people everywhere have a right to resist
by whatever means they have.
Frankly, I don't see how suicide bombings are supposed to advance
the Palestinian cause and I would strongly advise them to find some
method of resistance that had some greater chance of achieving their
ultimate liberation. But I don't know what that method might be.
Suicide bombings seem to me to be tactical and strategic mistakes,
but the Palestinians have a right to struggle against oppression.
--
Lars Eighner -finger for geek code- eig...@io.com http://www.io.com/~eighner/
War on Terrorism: History a Mystery
"He's busy making history, but doesn't look back at his own, or the
world's.... Bush would rather look forward than backward." --_Newsweek_
Elroy Willis
> Mike Painter <mdotp...@att.net> wrote in message
>> yechidah <TheHeal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> TheMan <nor...@noreply.com> wrote in message
>>> The Creator created Israel with loving, fatherly intent, that it should
>>> serve as the holiest dwelling place for His beneficience Shechinah, for
>>> the Jewish people to serve Him and for the 70 Nations to glorify His name.
>>> Anything else you cite is ENTIRELY missing the intent and purpose behind
>>> creation of the Holy Land.
>> Sure it did, but is it big enough. Several times this creature promised
>> that his people would be as numerous as grains of sand.
> Do you not believe in action and re-action? That every action brings a
> response? If we do what we are supposed to and keep the laws in the Torah
> holy - i.e. not sin, desecrate the laws, then Hashem will bless us
> continuously with abundance - as He promised.
> Deuteronomy 11 13-17
> And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto My
> commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your
> God, and to serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul, that I will
> give the rain of your land in its season, the former rain and the latter rain, that
> thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil. And I will give
> grass in thy fields for thy cattle, and thou shalt eat and be satisfied.
> Take heed to yourselves, lest your heart be deceived, and ye turn aside, and
> serve other gods, and worship them; and the anger of the LORD be kindled
> against you, and He shut up the heaven, so that there shall be no rain, and
> the ground shall not yield her fruit; and ye perish quickly from off the
> good land which the LORD giveth you.
Sounds like a weather god to me. Surely there aren't people out there
who still believe in weather gods, are there? <cough>
>> Incidentally, the promise was made to a tribe of people, not to a
>> religious sect.
> Incidently which promise are you speaking of? There were many. Of the
> Land - Hashem gave this promise through a Covenant with Abraham, Isaac
> and Jacob and their descendents.
> The Jewish people are those descendents.
Which Jewish people today claim that they're actually descendants
of King David? If that's a requirement for the Moshiach or Messiah,
then surely there must be some living Jewish people who claim to
actually be descended from David, or else the whole Moshiach idea
is meaningless, right? So, who are they? Which Jewish families claim
to be descended from King David today?
Elroy Willis
> Mike Painter <mdotp...@att.net> wrote in message
>> yechidah <TheHeal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> Incidently which promise are you speaking of? There were many. Of the
>>> Land - Hashem gave this promise through a Covenant with Abraham,
>>> Isaac and Jacob and their descendents.
>> All of them.
> With the ones who are circumcised on the 8th day. The Ishmaelites circumcise
> theirs on the 13th day.
Interesting. I had not heard about that difference before. What are
the practical benefits of an 8th day verses 13th day circumcision?
>>> The Jewish people are those descendents.
>> So all the Jews in the world are descendants of these tribes?
> Yes. Now the tribes are returning to the Land. This process is called
> Ingathering of the Exiles.
What about those Jews who don't care about going back to some
make-believe holy land? What if they feel safer where they are?
>> When the person who can trace their ancestry in China back thousands
>> of years converts and moves to Israel, they automatically become the
>> descendant of one of the tribes?
> If their mother is Jewish, they are a Member of the Tribe (of Judah).
Women can convert to Judaism, can't they? If you say no, then you're
stuck in corner, aren't you? If you say yes, then some actual
bloodline is lost, at least with regards to genetics or DNA.
Elroy Willis
> Mike Painter <mdotp...@att.net> wrote in message
>> yechidah <TheHeal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> With the ones who are circumcised on the 8th day. The Ishmaelites
>>> circumcise theirs on the 13th day.
>> And they got the custom from Egypt.
> The first Jew to be circumcised, Abraham received the instruction from
> God.
According to several different sources that I've read, certain
Egyptian priests and cults practiced circumcision as an initiation
rite, as well as a maturity ritual, and it was done during the 13th
year, not the 13th day. When a young man reached puberty, and started
getting erections and having "wet dreams" or "nocturnal emissions" it
was considered a sign of sexual maturity, and was considered time to
hack off the foreskin of the penis, as an offering to some Egyptian
fertility god, or as a ritual to enter the priesthood if one wanted to
forsake carnal desires related to the penis.
From:
http://www.circlist.com/rites/egypt.html
"Some historians have contended that the priests of Egypt were
circumcised as a sacrifice, a forsaking of "sinful pleasures".
However, the concept of sex as sin is not known to have been a part of
the Egyptian religion. What is known is that the circumcised penis was
a symbol of fertility, as can be seen in temple reliefs throughout
Egypt. According to Egyptologist, E. A. Budge ('The Gods of the
Egyptians'. Dover Publications), there was a very early God of
Circumcision whose job was to maintain the fertility of the Nile
banks. Another early Egyptian myth contended that God circumcised
himself and the blood from his penis fell and created the universe.
This myth is thought by some to be the progenitor of the blood cults,
in which animals were sacrificed and the blood covenants in the modern
Semitic religions."
So, circumcision isn't something that the Ishmaelites or the
Abrahamites came up with on their own, or by order of some
new mythical god, from what I can tell. It was just a practice or
ritual borrowed and changed over time, just like all the others.
13 years became 13 days, just to be different I suppose, as well
as 8 being the same type thing. I vaguely remember reading something
about 8 days being the "best time" to cut off a foreskin, and the
article went so far as to say that 8 days is exactly when the baby's
immune system first comes up to the point of being able to handle
such a bloody ritual.
Susan Cohen
Is that all you could see???
I really don't think that's enough. As you may be aware
> opinion varies with respect to what's currently going on in that part
> of the world, and is, to put it mildly, quite polarised.
And NONE of it belongs in a SCIENTIFIC JOURNAL about GENETICS.
HELLO?????? Do you understand, now?
Nice of this person to ignore the real point.
>
> >> >People this unprofessional & biased cannot be trusted to be truthful
about
> >> >their "findings."
>
> Well, I'd be a good deal happier if the objections to the paper were
> spelled out.
I'm extremely disappointed that you can't see that it's intrinsic to the
paper.
>
> >> One imagines it's problematic to trust the opinion of, anyone, with a
> >> vested interest in the outcome of such a study. That said, in so far
> >> as I'm aware, the basis for the objections were not related to the
> >> science of the paper.
> >
> >Except for the points I raised that were outlined in the article.
>
> Which were to do with politics, terminology, and not the science.
Which were made suspect by the *presence* of politics, as well as the
*pronounced* bias thereof.
It
> appears to me that you're saying that if the authors of a scientific
> paper don't share your religio-political views, then their science is
> automatically invalid.
No, *you're* saying that because I don't share their view that I'm lying
about their integrity.
>
> I don't suppose you've come across one Jason Gastrich?
I don't suppose I care, either.
Susan
Susan Cohen
"randum_proser" <sp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:40028...@news.iprimus.com.au...
Only against Jews.
Susan
>
> -
> http://randomprose.journalspace.com
>
>
Susan Cohen
"Lars Eighner" <eig...@io.com> wrote in message
news:slrnc054pm....@pearl.io.com...
> ["Followup-To:" header set to alt.atheism.]
> In our last episode,
> <40028...@news.iprimus.com.au>,
> the lovely and talented randum_proser
> broadcast on alt.atheism:
>
>
> > "TheMan" <nor...@noreply.com> wrote in message
> > news:scfMb.6676$Wa....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> >> A lot of people still do not know the history of Israel. I used to
condemn
> >> suicide bombing against the Israeli's being the once uninformed news
> > viewer
> >> that I was and decided to read the history on how Israel was created.
>
> > So you think terrorist attacks (against citizens) are justified? Or do
you
> > just condone them?
>
> No theocracy has a right to exist. No state based on apartheid has a
> right to exist. Oppressed people everywhere have a right to resist
> by whatever means they have.
Which has nothing to do with Israel.
And another note: if you really had anything intelligent to say, you
wouldn't need to change your name/e-mail to avoid peoples' killfiles.
Susan
Susan Cohen
"Steel Golem" <thoug...@plantthoughful.org> wrote in message
news:z8wMb.7985$Wa....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Which is a far cry from "genetically almost identical."
Unless you're going to admit that you're "almost genetically identical to a
chimp" since you have more in common with a male chimp than you do a human
female?
Susan
not_over_the_hill
wrote:
>
>"yechidah" <TheHeal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:ohfMb.3526$i4....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>>
>> "TheMan" <nor...@noreply.com> wrote in message
>> news:scfMb.6676$Wa....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>
>> The Creator created Israel with loving, fatherly intent, that it should
>> serve as the holiest dwelling place for His beneficience Shechinah, for
>the
>> Jewish people to serve Him and for the 70 Nations to glorify His name.
>>
>> Anything else you cite is ENTIRELY missing the intent and purpose behind
>> creation of the Holy Land.
>>
>Sure it did, but is it big enough. Several times this creature promised that
>his people would be as numerous as grains of sand.
>
>Incidentally, the promise was made to a tribe of people, not to a religious
>sect.
>
Damn sure wasn't made to the zionists !!!
TheMan
> On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 05:40:10 GMT, "TheMan" <nor...@noreply.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >Now who's lying Jew, me and history, or you and your Zionist fantasy's?
>
> personal bigotry, and I speak as neither a Jew, a Zionist, nor even a
> particular supporter of Israel.
I hate Israel and Zionazi's, you can read it however you want. I do not have
any real hate for non-Zionist Jews but I have yet to come across one in
these newsgroups.
As a "worthless goy" it is my job to point out that the "choosen people"
whom "god gave them land" are really a bunch of lying butchers who are
trying to pull a holocaust job against anyone who's not jewish. Not a big
deal to you maybe, but to me thats something worth fighting against.
-TheMan-
not_over_the_hill
<TheHeal...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>"Mike Painter" <mdotp...@att.net> wrote in message
>news:yWhMb.16822$6y6.4...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>>
>> "yechidah" <TheHeal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:ohfMb.3526$i4....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>> >
>> > "TheMan" <nor...@noreply.com> wrote in message
>> > news:scfMb.6676$Wa....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> >
>> > The Creator created Israel with loving, fatherly intent, that it should
>> > serve as the holiest dwelling place for His beneficience Shechinah, for
>> the
>> > Jewish people to serve Him and for the 70 Nations to glorify His name.
>> >
>> > Anything else you cite is ENTIRELY missing the intent and purpose behind
>> > creation of the Holy Land.
>> >
>> Sure it did, but is it big enough. Several times this creature promised
>that
>> his people would be as numerous as grains of sand.
>>
>
>Do you not believe in action and re-action? That every action brings a
>response? If we do what we are supposed to and keep the laws in the Torah
>holy - i.e. not sin, desecrate the laws, then Hashem will bless us
>continuously with abundance - as He promised.
>
>Deuteronomy 11 13-17
>
>And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto My
>commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to
>serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul, that I will give the
>rain of your land in its season, the former rain and the latter rain, that
>thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil. And I will give
>grass in thy fields for thy cattle, and thou shalt eat and be satisfied.
>Take heed to yourselves, lest your heart be deceived, and ye turn aside, and
>serve other gods, and worship them; and the anger of the LORD be kindled
>against you, and He shut up the heaven, so that there shall be no rain, and
>the ground shall not yield her fruit; and ye perish quickly from off the
>good land which the LORD giveth you.
>
>
>> Incidentally, the promise was made to a tribe of people, not to a
>religious
>> sect.
>
>Incidently which promise are you speaking of? There were many. Of the Land -
>Hashem gave this promise through a Covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
>and their descendents.
>
>The Jewish people are those descendents.
>
>YS
>
>
So, now you want to make the argument:
"God gave it to them"??
You're funny as a bucket of shit.
God ain't in the real estate business
not_over_the_hill
Terence Fformby-Smythe) wrote:
>On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 05:40:10 GMT, "TheMan" <nor...@noreply.com>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>"Susan Cohen" <fla...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>>news:s3lMb.6624$sb3....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
>>>
>>> "Mike Painter" <mdotp...@att.net> wrote in message
>>> news:TThMb.16810$6y6.4...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>>> >
>>> > "raven1" <quotht...@nevermore.com> wrote in message
>>> > news:2s4300d57mcdo908n...@4ax.com...
>>> > > On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 16:53:44 GMT, "TheMan" <nor...@noreply.com>
>>> > > wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > >A lot of people still do not know the history of Israel. I used to
>>> > condemn
>>> > > >suicide bombing against the Israeli's being the once uninformed news
>>> > viewer
>>> > > >that I was and decided to read the history on how Israel was created.
>>> > Thats
>>> > > >when my opinion changed especially after reading the tripe the
>>Zionists
>>> > in
>>> > > >the newsgroups had been posting.
>>> > >
>>> > > So now you think it's OK to kill innocent civilians indiscriminately?
>>> > > Wow, such candor is unusual.
>>> >
>>> > I'm sure he does not but he barely covered the facts that the terrorist
>>> > tactics were used against others by immigrants who wanted to form
>>Israel.
>>>
>>> I'm sure he does because he's lying - just like you.
>>
>>Quote from the history of Palestine:
>>
>>"The Haganah, a secret armed group organized by the Jewish Agency,
>>and the Irgun and the Stern Gang, terrorist groups, were active. British
>>officials were killed by the terrorists. "
>>
>>Now who's lying Jew, me and history, or you and your Zionist fantasy's?
>
>Suzy Cohen isn't even a jew. She's an Irish convert who just thinks
>she's a jew.
Only jewish "by injection". hee heee
TheMan
>
> "raven1" <quotht...@nevermore.com> wrote in message
> news:805400prg3lactv41...@4ax.com...
> > On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 01:59:50 GMT, "TheMan" <nor...@noreply.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >Quote: "The Haganah, a secret armed group organized by the Jewish
Agency,
> > >and the Irgun and the Stern Gang, terrorist groups, were active.
British
> > >officials were killed by the terrorists."
> > >
> > >Comment please.
> >
> > Sure: go back and look for anywhere I suggested that I would support
> > such things on *anyone's* part.
>
> Except that the "British Officials" were not civilians; they were military
> targets.
Except they were part of no officially recognised army of any nation,
instead working underground performing attacks to try and scare the
government into doing what they want.
By that VERY definition they are a terrorist group. They were not a
legitimate armed force and they DID kill civilians... the hotel had many
civilian servants working there.
-TheMan-
not_over_the_hill
do their little wiggle dance.
Give it up already!
Now tell us what it is:
1. Did God give the zionists the land?
2. Did the UN (who most don't recognize) give the zionists the land?
Ya'll are one bunch of hypocrites if I've ever seen one.
The world is fast waking up to the lies and the deceitfulness.
Israel is the single greatest threat to world peace.
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 18:36:41 +1100, "Bill Smith" <bsm...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>TheMan: That history is the official PLO version and it merely forgets to
>mention the truth or relevant facts in some places.
>For instance: you mention the number of Arabs in Palestine faitly inflated.
>You forget to mention that most of that number were left in Jordan occupied
>West Bank and not under Israeli occupation.
>But there is quite a bit of falsehood there too.
>However, all of that does not matter.
>The descendants of those exiled by the Romans want their land back. They
>waited 2000 years.
>"TheMan" <nor...@noreply.com> wrote in message
>news:scfMb.6676$Wa....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> A lot of people still do not know the history of Israel. I used to condemn
>> suicide bombing against the Israeli's being the once uninformed news
>viewer
>> that I was and decided to read the history on how Israel was created.
>Thats
>> when my opinion changed especially after reading the tripe the Zionists in
>> the newsgroups had been posting.
>>
>> DON'T BE CONNED BY THE ZIONIST BULLSHIT.
>>
>> Here is a rough overview of "Israel" history from a unbiased website
>> encyclopedia.com
>>
>> Ancient Palestine
>> The earliest known inhabitants of Palestine were of the same group as
>> the Neanderthal inhabitants of Europe. By the 4th millennium BC Palestine
>> was inhabited by herders and farmers. It was in the 3d millennium that
>most
>> of the towns known in historical times came into existence. They became
>> centers of trade for Egyptian and Babylonian goods. During the 2d
>> millennium, Palestine was ruled by the Hyksos and by the Egyptians. Toward
>> the end of this period Moses led the Hebrew people (see Jews ) out of
>Egypt,
>> across the Sinai, and into Palestine.
>>
>> Around 1200 BC, the Philistines ( "Sea Peoples" ) invaded the southern
>> coastland and established a powerful kingdom (see Philistia ). The Hebrews
>> were subject to the Philistines until c.1000 BC, when an independent
>Hebrew
>> kingdom was established under Saul , who was succeeded by David and then
>by
>> Solomon . After the expansionist reign of Solomon (c.950 BC), the kingdom
>> broke up into two states, Israel, with its capital at Samaria, and Judah,
>> under the house of David, with its capital at Jerusalem. The two kingdoms
>> were later conquered by expanding Mesopotamian states, Israel by Assyria
>> (c.720 BC) and Judah by Babylonia (586 BC).
>>
>> In 539 BC the Persians conquered the Babylonians. The Jewish Temple,
>> destroyed by the Babylonians, was rebuilt (516 BC). Under Persian rule
>> Palestine enjoyed considerable autonomy. Alexander the Great of Macedon,
>> conquered Palestine in 333 BC His successors, the Ptolemies and Seleucids,
>> contested for Palestine. The attempt of the Seleucid Antiochus IV
>(Antiochus
>> Epiphanes) to impose Hellenism brought a Jewish revolt under the Maccabees
>,
>> who set up a new Jewish state in 142 BC The state lasted until 63 BC, when
>> Pompey conquered Palestine for Rome.
>>
>> Christianity and Islam
>> Palestine at the time of Jesus was ruled by puppet kings of the
>Romans,
>> the Herods (see Herod ). When the Jews revolted in AD 66, the Romans
>> destroyed the Temple (AD 70). Another revolt between AD 132 and 135 was
>also
>> suppressed (see Bar Kokba, Simon ), Jericho and Bethlehem were destroyed,
>> and the Jews were barred from Jerusalem. When Emperor Constantine
>converted
>> to Christianity (312), Palestine became a center of Christian pilgrimage,
>> and many Jews left the region. Palestine over the next few centuries
>> generally enjoyed peace and prosperity until it was conquered in 614 by
>the
>> Persians. It was recovered briefly by the Byzantine Romans, but fell to
>the
>> Muslim Arabs under caliph Umar by the year 640.
>>
>> At this time (during the Umayyad rule), the importance of Palestine as
>a
>> holy place for Muslims was emphasized, and in 691 the Dome of the Rock was
>> erected on the site of the Temple of Solomon, which is claimed by Muslims
>to
>> have been the halting station of Muhammad on his journey to heaven. Close
>to
>> the Dome, the Aqsa mosque was built. In 750, Palestine passed to the
>Abbasid
>> caliphate, and this period was marked by unrest between factions that
>> favored the Umayyads and those who preferred the new rulers.
>>
>> In the 9th cent., Palestine was conquered by the Fatimid dynasty,
>which
>> had risen to power in North Africa. The Fatimids had many enemies-the
>> Seljuks, Karmatians, Byzantines, and Bedouins-and Palestine became a
>> battlefield. Under the Fatimid caliph al Hakim (996-1021), the Christians
>> and Jews were harshly suppressed, and many churches were destroyed. In
>1099,
>> Palestine was captured by the Crusaders (see Crusades ), who established
>the
>> Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem. The Crusaders were defeated by Saladin at the
>> battle of Hittin (1187), and the Latin Kingdom was ended; they were
>finally
>> driven out of Palestine by the Mamluks in 1291. Under Mamluk rule
>Palestine
>> declined.
>>
>> Turkish Rule
>> In 1516 the Mamluks were defeated by the Ottoman Turks. The first
>three
>> centuries of Ottoman rule isolated Palestine from outside influence. In
>> 1831, Muhammad Ali, the Egyptian viceroy nominally subject to the Ottoman
>> sultan, occupied Palestine. Under him and his son the region was opened to
>> European influence. Ottoman control was reasserted in 1840, but Western
>> influence continued. Among the many European settlements established, the
>> most significant in the long run were those of Jews, Russian Jews being
>the
>> first to come (1882).
>>
>> Conflict between Arabs and Zionists
>> In the late 19th cent. the Zionist movement was founded (see Zionism )
>> with the goal of establishing a Jewish homeland in Palestine, and dozens
>of
>> Zionist colonies were founded there. At the start of the Zionist
>> colonization of Palestine in the late 19th cent., the rural people were
>Arab
>> peasants (fellahin). Most of the population were Muslims, but in the urban
>> areas there were sizable groups of Arab Christians (at Nazareth,
>Bethlehem,
>> and Jerusalem) and of Jews (at Zefat, Tiberias, Jerusalem, Jericho, and
>> Hebron).
>>
>> At the same time Arab nationalism was developing in the Middle East in
>> opposition to Turkish rule. In World War I the British, with Arab aid,
>> gained control of Palestine. In the Balfour Declaration (1917) the British
>> promised Zionist leaders to aid the establishment of a Jewish "national
>> home" in Palestine, with due regard for the rights of non-Jewish
>> Palestinians. However, the British had also promised Arab leaders to
>support
>> the creation of independent Arab states. The Arabs believed Palestine was
>to
>> be among these, an intention that the British later denied.
>>
>> In 1919 there were about 568,000 Muslims, 74,000 Christians, and
>58,000
>> Jews in Palestine. The first Arab anti-Zionist riots occurred in Palestine
>> in 1920. The League of Nations approved the British mandate in 1922,
>> although the actual administration of the area had begun in 1920. As part
>of
>> the mandate Britain was given the responsibility for aiding the Jewish
>> homeland and fostering Jewish immigration there. The British stressed that
>> their policy to aid the homeland did not include making all Palestine the
>> homeland, but rather that such a home should exist within Palestine and
>that
>> there were economic limits on how many immigrants should be admitted (1922
>> White Paper).
>>
>> In the 1920s, Jewish immigration was slight, but the Jewish
>communities
>> made great economic progress. In 1929 there was serious Jewish-Arab
>violence
>> occasioned by a clash at the Western, or Wailing, Wall in Jerusalem. A
>> British report found that Arabs feared the economic and political
>> consequences of continued Jewish immigration with its attendant land
>> purchases. Zionists were angered when a new White Paper (1930) urged
>> limiting immigration, but they were placated by Prime Minister Ramsay
>> MacDonald (1931).
>>
>> The rise of Nazism in Europe during the 1930s led to a great increase
>in
>> immigration. Whereas there were about 5,000 immigrants authorized in 1932,
>> about 62,000 were authorized in 1935. Arabs conducted strikes and
>boycotts;
>> a general strike in 1936, organized by Haj Amin al Husayni, mufti of
>> Jerusalem, lasted six months. Some Arabs acquired weapons and formed a
>> guerrilla force. The Peel commission (1937), finding British promises to
>> Zionists and Arabs irreconcilable, declared the mandate unworkable and
>> recommended the partition of Palestine into Jewish, Arab, and British
>> (largely the holy places) mandatory states. The Zionists reluctantly
>> approved partition, but the Arabs rejected it, objecting particularly to
>the
>> proposal that the Arab population be forcibly transferred out of the
>> proposed Jewish state.
>>
>> The British dropped the partition idea and announced a new policy
>(1939
>> White Paper). Fifteen thousand Jews a year would be allowed to immigrate
>for
>> the next five years, after which Jewish immigration would be subject to
>Arab
>> acquiescence; Jewish land purchases were to be restricted; and within 10
>> years an independent, binational Palestine would be established. The
>> Zionists were shocked by what they considered a betrayal of the Balfour
>> Declaration. The Arabs also rejected the plan, demanding instead the
>> immediate creation of an Arab Palestine, the prohibition of further
>> immigration, and a review of the status of all Jewish immigrants since
>1918.
>>
>> The outbreak of World War II prevented the implementation of the plan,
>> except for the restriction on land transfers. The Zionists and most Arabs
>> supported Britain in the war (although Haj Amin al Husayni was in Germany
>> and negotiated Palestine's future with Hitler), but tension inside
>Palestine
>> increased. The Haganah, a secret armed group organized by the Jewish
>Agency,
>> and the Irgun and the Stern Gang, terrorist groups, were active. British
>> officials were killed by the terrorists. The horrible plight of European
>> Jewry led influential forces in the United States to lobby for support of
>an
>> independent Jewish state, and President Truman requested that Britain
>permit
>> the admission of 100,000 Jews. Illegal immigration, often involving
>> survivors of Hitler's death camps, took place on a large scale. The
>> independent Arab states organized the Arab League to exert internationally
>> what pressure they could against the Zionists.
>>
>> An Anglo-American commission recommended (1946) that Britain continue
>> administering Palestine, rescind the land-transfer restrictions, and admit
>> 100,000 Jews, and that the underground Jewish armed groups be disbanded. A
>> plan for autonomy for Jews and Arabs within Palestine was discussed at a
>> London conference (1947) of British, Arabs, and Zionists, but no agreement
>> could be reached. The British, declaring their mandate unworkable and
>> despairing of finding a solution, turned the Palestine problem over to the
>> United Nations (Feb., 1947). At that time there were about 1,091,000
>> Muslims, 614,000 Jews, and 146,000 Christians in Palestine.
>>
>>
>
>
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TheMan
>
> "raven1" <quotht...@nevermore.com> wrote in message
> news:7pi400hu1qeetq3t9...@4ax.com...
> >
> > Personally, my reaction to both sides is straight out of Shakespeare:
> > "a plague on both your houses!". Obviously neither side has any
> > interest whatsoever in peace,
>
> How can you say this in the face of all the agreements that Israel has
> signed and begun to implement, only to have the PLO renege on them???
Don't make me laugh, you can't even build a fucking fence on your side of
the border and the world is STILL waiting for you guys to abide by the U.N
resolution to disband any illegal jewish settlements.
-TheMan-
TheMan
"Douglas Berry" <pengu...@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:b3240092lf28asfbe...@4ax.com...
> Lo, many moons past, on Sun, 11 Jan 2004 16:53:44 GMT, a stranger
> called by some "TheMan" <nor...@noreply.com> came forth and told
> this tale in alt.atheism
>
> > An Anglo-American commission recommended (1946) that Britain continue
> >administering Palestine, rescind the land-transfer restrictions, and
admit
> >100,000 Jews, and that the underground Jewish armed groups be disbanded.
A
> >plan for autonomy for Jews and Arabs within Palestine was discussed at a
> >London conference (1947) of British, Arabs, and Zionists, but no
agreement
> >could be reached. The British, declaring their mandate unworkable and
> >despairing of finding a solution, turned the Palestine problem over to
the
> >United Nations (Feb., 1947). At that time there were about 1,091,000
> >Muslims, 614,000 Jews, and 146,000 Christians in Palestine.
>
>
> You leave out the plan that gave the Palestinians a state, a plan that
> *they* rejected, instead prefering war to push the Jews into the sea.
They already had a state you moron, it was called Palestine.
You make it sound like the Jews were giving THEM something. This is
completely the opposite. The Muslims were giving the Illegal Immigrant Jews
who had just rocked up from Europe something, and they did not even agree to
it.
Why should they give up 50% of their land when it's rightfully theirs and
had been so for 2000 years. Remember all this happened POST WW2. Land
stealing was something the Nazi's did except they gave it all back.
-TheMan-
TheMan
"Mr. Elephant" <sexy_d...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eb87ce91.0401...@posting.google.com...
> "TheMan" <nor...@noreply.com> wrote in message
news:<scfMb.6676$Wa....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>...
> > A lot of people still do not know the history of Israel. I used to
condemn
> > suicide bombing against the Israeli's being the once uninformed news
viewer
> > that I was and decided to read the history on how Israel was created.
>
>
> Run along puppy, it's not their fault you have no life.
Do you support Israel shelling Palestinian kids with tank fire?
-TheMan-
yechidah
"not_over_the_hill" <watch_the_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8mh500tf4sc828hgk...@4ax.com...
There is no argument. There is fact. You can fight it or come to terms with
it and embrace it. Free will is yours. Remember for every action there is
reaction and surely all of Israel's enemies will be dealt with according to
their words and actions against her.
YS
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Paul
WOW! you would be incarcerated in Germany or Britain for writing this
crap. it's word for word verbatim from Hitler's personal diaries.
and fyi, the "Palestinians" assisted hitler with the design and
construction of his "health camps" as you morons would be prone to
call them.
you are dangerous.
Mekkala
groaned, pushed hard, and farted out the following message in
news:scfMb.6676$Wa....@news-server.bigpond.net.au:
Ok, so I read the encyclopedia article (which didn't tell me anything I
didn't already know). Was I supposed to draw some conclusion about the
evils of the Jews from that? As far as I've ever been able to tell, the
whole thing is a matter of (1) the British making contradictory promises
to the Jews and Arabs, (2) the Arabs being anti-Semitic, and (3) the
Jews being insensitive to legitimate Arab issues. In each of these
cases, it was some assholes causing problems for everyone else.
As the article mentioned, there were Jewish terrorist groups, such as
the Stern Gang. In general, though, Jews weren't blowing anybody else
up. They were just trying to find a place to live.
Also, there were Arab terrorist groups. The average Arab, though,
wasn't blowing people up, just trying to keep his home and not get
driven out.
And there were damned stupid British politicians trying to make everyone
happy by making promises they couldn't keep. However, the average Brit
wasn't trying to sic Jews and Arabs on each other.
The only conclusions I've seen so far to draw are that there are a few
assholes in every population, and that some issues are so gray that it's
almost impossible to see a "right" on any one side -- more like some
right and some wrong in every faction.
I *haven't* seen a reason to think suicide bombing against Israelis, or
anyone else, is perfectly ok. Have I missed something?
--
Mekkala, Atheist #2148
"Atheism is ... the bed-rock of sanity in a world of madness."
--Emmett F. Fields
Ron
> "raven1" <quotht...@nevermore.com> wrote in message
> news:7pi400hu1qeetq3t9...@4ax.com...
> >
> > Personally, my reaction to both sides is straight out of Shakespeare:
> > "a plague on both your houses!". Obviously neither side has any
> > interest whatsoever in peace,
>
> How can you say this in the face of all the agreements that Israel has
> signed and begun to implement, only to have the PLO renege on them???
BWAHAHAHA!! You mean "signed and PRETENDED to implement", then had
Mossad stage a terror bombing so IDF could shoot more people, raze
more houses and grab more land.
Hamas was created and financed by Shin Bet, Israeli intell.
> Susan
>
> but realistically the Palestinians need
> > to take a lesson from the IRA and realize that when one is in a
> > position of weakness, blowing up innocents will not bring world
> > opinion to your side, nor will it bring peace.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
Susan Cohen
"Paul" <tax...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f28a36c.04011...@posting.google.com...
Excuse me???
Susan
raven1
>"Susan Cohen" <fla...@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<XRtMb.10885$sb3....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>...
>> "raven1" <quotht...@nevermore.com> wrote in message
>> news:7pi400hu1qeetq3t9...@4ax.com...
>> >
>> > Personally, my reaction to both sides is straight out of Shakespeare:
>> > "a plague on both your houses!". Obviously neither side has any
>> > interest whatsoever in peace,
>>
>> How can you say this in the face of all the agreements that Israel has
>> signed and begun to implement, only to have the PLO renege on them???
>
>
>
>
> BWAHAHAHA!! You mean "signed and PRETENDED to implement", then had
>Mossad stage a terror bombing so IDF could shoot more people, raze
>more houses and grab more land.
>
> Hamas was created and financed by Shin Bet, Israeli intell.
And your evidence for the above would be...?
yechidah
"Martin Thomas" <mart...@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net> wrote in message
news:rg5400dir7sgnpr5r...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 20:53:58 GMT in alt.atheism
> "yechidah" <TheHeal...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >"Mike Painter" <mdotp...@att.net> wrote in message
> >news:yWhMb.16822$6y6.4...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> >>
> >> "yechidah" <TheHeal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:ohfMb.3526$i4....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> >> >
> >> > news:scfMb.6676$Wa....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> >> >
should
> >> > serve as the holiest dwelling place for His beneficience Shechinah,
for
> >> the
> >> > Jewish people to serve Him and for the 70 Nations to glorify His
name.
> >> >
> >> > Anything else you cite is ENTIRELY missing the intent and purpose
behind
> >> > creation of the Holy Land.
> >> >
> >> Sure it did, but is it big enough. Several times this creature promised
> >that
> >> his people would be as numerous as grains of sand.
> >>
> >
> >Do you not believe in action and re-action? That every action brings a
> >response? If we do what we are supposed to and keep the laws in the Torah
> >holy - i.e. not sin, desecrate the laws, then Hashem will bless us
> >continuously with abundance - as He promised.
>
> which is what you are actually dealing with?
"There is abundant peace for the lovers of Your Torah, and there is no
stumbling block for them."
Psalm. 119:165
Deborah Sharavi
>TheMan: That history is the official PLO version and it merely
forgets to
>mention the truth or relevant facts in some places.
>For instance: you mention the number of Arabs in Palestine faitly
inflated.
>You forget to mention that most of that number were left in Jordan
occupied
>West Bank and not under Israeli occupation.
>But there is quite a bit of falsehood there too.
How is this the official PLO version? According to the official
PLO version, "Palestinians" transformed the deserts of "Palestine"
and made them "bloom" in the 19thC. THAT'S part of the PLO's
"history" of "Palestine".
>However, all of that does not matter.
>The descendants of those exiled by the Romans want their land back.
They
>waited 2000 years.
>"TheMan" <nor...@noreply.com> wrote in message
>news:scfMb.6676$Wa....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>A lot of people still do not know the history of Israel. I used to
condemn
>>suicide bombing against the Israeli's being the once uninformed news
>>viewer
>>that I was and decided to read the history on how Israel was
created.
>>Thats
>>when my opinion changed especially after reading the tripe the
Zionists in
>>the newsgroups had been posting.
The tripe comes largely from the pro-Pallie side.
<<DON'T BE CONNED BY THE ZIONIST BULLSHIT.
<<Here is a rough overview of "Israel" history from a unbiased website
<<encyclopedia.com
<<Ancient Palestine
<< The earliest known inhabitants of Palestine were of the same
group as
<<the Neanderthal inhabitants of Europe. By the 4th millennium BC
Palestine
<<was inhabited by herders and farmers. It was in the 3d millennium
that
< most
<<of the towns known in historical times came into existence. They
became
<<centers of trade for Egyptian and Babylonian goods. During the 2d
<<millennium, Palestine was ruled by the Hyksos and by the Egyptians.
Toward
<<the end of this period Moses led the Hebrew people (see Jews ) out
of
< Egypt,
<<across the Sinai, and into Palestine.
Left out a bit from encyclopedia.com, did we?
"
Palestine
Related: Israel Geography
(păl´estin) , historic region on the eastern shore of the
Mediterranean Sea, at various times comprising parts of modern Israel,
the West Bank and Gaza, Jordan, and Egypt; also known as the Holy
Land. The name is derived from a word meaning "land of the
Philistines." This article discusses mainly the geography and the
history of Palestine until the United Nations took up the Palestine
problem in 1947; for the economy and later history, see Israel ,
Jordan , and West Bank . In the Bible, Palestine is called Canaan
before the invasion of Joshua; the usual Hebrew name is Eretz Israel
[land of Israel]. Palestine is the Holy Land of Jews, having been
promised to them by God; of Christians because it was the scene of
Jesus' life; and of Muslims because they consider Islam to be the heir
of Judaism and Christianity and because Jerusalem is the site,
according to Muslim tradition, of Muhammad's ascent to heaven. The
Holy Land derives its special character from being a place of
pilgrimage. Shrines, shared in common by several religions, cluster
most numerously in and about Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Nazareth, and
Hebron.
-http://encyclopedia.com/html/P/Palestin.asp
In fact, encyclopedia.com left out a bit:
1) the earliest inhabitants of "Palestine" were not "of the same
group as the Neandethal [sic] inhabitants of Europe." They were
Neandertals. They were also the earliest modern humans @c90,000 BCE.
2) "most of the towns known in historical times" - whatever
"historical
times means here - did NOT come into existence in the 3rd mil BCE.
3) "Palestine" was NOT "ruled by the Hyksos and the Egyptians" in the
2nd mil BCE.
In the late 3rd mil/early 2nd mil BCE, Mesopotamia was invaded by
Amorites, who
captured Babylon and established a strong Amorite state. There were
also Hittite and
Aramaens incursions, and Egyptian campaigns against both. The Hyksos
invaded and
conquered Egypt during the Third Intermediate Period, after which they
were driven
out.
<< Around 1200 BC, the Philistines ( "Sea Peoples" ) invaded the
southern
<<coastland and established a powerful kingdom (see Philistia ). The
Hebrews
<<were subject to the Philistines until c.1000 BC, when an independent
< Hebrew
<<kingdom was established under Saul , who was succeeded by David and
then
< by
<<Solomon .
The Philistines were a small contingent of the Sea Peoples who raided
Egypt and the Levant and contributed to, if they were not responsible
for, the destruction of the Hittite empire. They were never organized
enough
to have established any Philistine "kingdom" on Israel's southern
littorial.
Although Philistine expansionism threatened Israel, Israel was not
"subject
to the Philistines until 1000 BC". Their power was neutralized by
David,
after which they ceased to be a threat. After the Philistines were
attacked
by Babylon in the late 6thC BCE, they ceased to exist.
>>After the expansionist reign of Solomon (c.950 BC), the kingdom
<<broke up into two states, Israel, with its capital at Samaria, and
Judah,
<<under the house of David, with its capital at Jerusalem. The two
kingdoms
<<were later conquered by expanding Mesopotamian states, Israel by
Assyria
<<(c.720 BC) and Judah by Babylonia (586 BC).
<< In 539 BC the Persians conquered the Babylonians. The Jewish
Temple,
<<destroyed by the Babylonians, was rebuilt (516 BC). Under Persian
rule
<<Palestine enjoyed considerable autonomy. Alexander the Great of
Macedon,
<<conquered Palestine in 333 BC His successors, the Ptolemies and
Seleucids,
<<contested for Palestine. The attempt of the Seleucid Antiochus IV
< (Antiochus
<<Epiphanes) to impose Hellenism brought a Jewish revolt under the
Maccabees
< ,
<<who set up a new Jewish state in 142 BC The state lasted until 63
BC, when
<<Pompey conquered Palestine for Rome.
Rough, but not altogether unfactual. The Maccabean state did not end
in
63 BCE, however, and Pompey did not conquer "Palestine" for Rome.
Upon the death of Salome (Alexandra), her sons instigated
civil war; Hyrcanus II fled to Areta and induced him to attack
Jerusalem and his brother in 65 BCE. Pompey sent one of
his generals, Marcus Scaurus, after Aristobulus II sent him a
large sum of money for his aid; Hyrcanus and Aretas were then
forced to withdraw. In 63 BCE, Pompey himself invaded and
be sieged Jerusalem; after three months, the city fell, Aristobulos
and his sons, Alexander and Antigonos, were taken prisoner, and
Hyrcanus II was installed as High Priest and king. Hyrcanus was the
grandfather of Herod's second and favorite wife; the power behind
the throne, so to speak, was Antipater, Herod's father. Go figure.
Judaea became a Roman protectorate following the death of Herod's
eldest son,
then a province. The lands of Herod's remaining sons remained under
native rulers
until the Bar Kokhba revolt, when all Israel was conquered by Rome and
renamed
Syria-Palaestina.
<< Christianity and Islam
<< Palestine at the time of Jesus was ruled by puppet kings of the
< Romans,
<<the Herods (see Herod ). When the Jews revolted in AD 66, the Romans
<<destroyed the Temple (AD 70). Another revolt between AD 132 and 135
was
< also
<<suppressed (see Bar Kokba, Simon ), Jericho and Bethlehem were
destroyed,
<<and the Jews were barred from Jerusalem. When Emperor Constantine
< converted
<<to Christianity (312), Palestine became a center of Christian
pilgrimage,
<<and many Jews left the region.
There is absolutely no evidence that Jews left Roman Palestine when
Constantine became a Xian.
>>Palestine over the next few centuries
<<generally enjoyed peace and prosperity until it was conquered in 614
by
< the
<<Persians. It was recovered briefly by the Byzantine Romans, but fell
to
< the
<<Muslim Arabs under caliph Umar by the year 640.
<< At this time (during the Umayyad rule), the importance of
Palestine as
< a
<<holy place for Muslims was emphasized, and in 691 the Dome of the
Rock was
<<erected on the site of the Temple of Solomon, which is claimed by
Muslims
< to
<<have been the halting station of Muhammad on his journey to heaven.
"Palestine" was not important to Muslims, until the Umayyads built
the Dome of the Rock by way of diverting interest to their own
territories.
It was only later that Jerusalem was identified as "The Furthest
Mosque"
of the Quran.
>> Close
< to
<<the Dome, the Aqsa mosque was built. In 750, Palestine passed to the
< Abbasid
<<caliphate, and this period was marked by unrest between factions
that
<<favored the Umayyads and those who preferred the new rulers.
<< In the 9th cent., Palestine was conquered by the Fatimid
dynasty,
< which
<<had risen to power in North Africa. The Fatimids had many
enemies-the
<<Seljuks, Karmatians, Byzantines, and Bedouins-and Palestine became a
<<battlefield. Under the Fatimid caliph al Hakim (996-1021), the
Christians
<<and Jews were harshly suppressed, and many churches were destroyed.
In
< 1099,
<<Palestine was captured by the Crusaders (see Crusades ), who
established
< the
<<Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem.
Left out the conquest of Palestine by the Seljuks.
>>The Crusaders were defeated by Saladin at the
<<battle of Hittin (1187), and the Latin Kingdom was ended; they were
< finally
<<driven out of Palestine by the Mamluks in 1291. Under Mamluk rule
< Palestine
<<declined.
Left out the destruction of churches and monasteries by Muslims.
<< Turkish Rule
<< In 1516 the Mamluks were defeated by the Ottoman Turks. The
first
<< three centuries of Ottoman rule isolated Palestine from outside
influence.
???
>>In
<<1831, Muhammad Ali, the Egyptian viceroy nominally subject to the
Ottoman
<<sultan, occupied Palestine. Under him and his son the region was
opened to
<<European influence.
???
>>Ottoman control was reasserted in 1840, but Western
<<influence continued. Among the many European settlements
established, the
<<most significant in the long run were those of Jews, Russian Jews
being
< the first to come (1882).
The first of the modern Jewish settlements was established in 1850 in
the
J'lem area, followed by Mikveh Israel (French) and Petakh Tikva in
1870,
establihed by Jews from Jerusalem. The first of the Russian Zionists
arrived
in 1881, along with a contingent of Jews from the Yemen. Between 1870
and
1890, the Chovevei Tzion set up over 30 Jewish agricultural colonies
in Palestine, half
of which were aided by the Rothschilds.
<< Conflict between Arabs and Zionists
<< In the late 19th cent. the Zionist movement was founded (see
Zionism )
<<with the goal of establishing a Jewish homeland in Palestine, and
dozens
< of
<<Zionist colonies were founded there. At the start of the Zionist
<<colonization of Palestine in the late 19th cent., the rural people
were
< Arab
<<peasants (fellahin). Most of the population were Muslims, but in the
urban
<<areas there were sizable groups of Arab Christians (at Nazareth,
< Bethlehem,
<<and Jerusalem) and of Jews (at Zefat, Tiberias, Jerusalem, Jericho,
and
<<Hebron).
The establishment of the Jewish colonies precipitated a wave of
Arab immigration, due to increased work opportunities, and the
establishment, or re-establishment, of Arab villages, usually in
the proximity of the Jewish colonies.
<< At the same time Arab nationalism was developing in the Middle
East in
<<opposition to Turkish rule. In World War I the British, with Arab
aid,
<<gained control of Palestine.
The much-vaunted Arab Revolt did nothing more than tear up the
Hejaz railway a few times, after which the Ottomans promptly repaired
it. The British conquest of Palestine was due largely, according to
the
British, to the intelligence they received from the NILI group, and
the Jewish Legion, which, in Palestine, comprised 1/6th of the British
Army under Allenby.
<<In the Balfour Declaration (1917) the British
<<promised Zionist leaders to aid the establishment of a Jewish
"national
<< home" in Palestine, with due regard for the rights of non-Jewish
<<Palestinians. However, the British had also promised Arab leaders to
< support
<<the creation of independent Arab states. The Arabs believed
Palestine was
< to
<<be among these, an intention that the British later denied.
Wrong. The Arabs were promised British aid in creating an independent
Arab state by Sir Henry McMahon, who made clear in his correspondence
with Sharif Husayn of the Hejaz that Palestine was specifically
excluded
from the proposed Arab state, to which the Sharif agreed. As
reaffirmed
in the British White Paper of 1922, "The whole of Palestine west of
the Jordan
was thus excluded from Sir. Henry McMahon's pledge."
<< In 1919 there were about 568,000 Muslims, 74,000 Christians, and
< 58,000
<<Jews in Palestine.
In 1919, "Palestine" included Tranjordan, southern Lebanon, and
the Golan Heights.
<<The first Arab anti-Zionist riots occurred in Palestine
<<in 1920.
The riots, known as Bloody Passover, or the Nebi Musa riots, were
anti-JEWISH, and the Arabs' targets were unarmed religious Jews,
as they were in the 1921 riots, both of which were instigated by the
Mufti, a former Turkish officer, and his goons against British rule.
Bloody Passover 1920:
25 Arab casualties
216 Jewish casualties
<<The League of Nations approved the British mandate in 1922,
<<although the actual administration of the area had begun in 1920. As
part
< of
<<the mandate Britain was given the responsibility for aiding the
Jewish
<<homeland and fostering Jewish immigration there. The British
stressed that
<<their policy to aid the homeland did not include making all
Palestine the
<<homeland, but rather that such a home should exist within Palestine
and
< that
<<there were economic limits on how many immigrants should be admitted
(1922
<<White Paper).
The original articles of the Mandate (1923) included the terms of the
Balfour
Declaration to create a Jewish state in Palestine and encourage Jewish
immigration. The 1922 White Paper reaffirmed the intention of the
Balfour Declaration. The above account leaves out the fact that in
1923,
the British severed 77% of Palestine from the Mandate and formed the
emirate of Transjordan.
Full text of the 1922 White Paper:
The Avalon Project at Yale Law School
British White Paper of June 1922
The Secretary of State for the Colonies has given renewed
consideration to the existing political situation in Palestine, with a
very earnest desire to arrive at a settlement of the outstanding
questions which have given rise to uncertainty and unrest among
certain sections of the population. After consultation with the High
Commissioner for Palestine [Sir Herbert Samuel] the following
statement has been drawn up. It summarizes the essential parts of the
correspondence that has already taken place between the Secretary of
State and a delegation from the Moslem Christian Society of Palestine,
which has been for some time in England, and it states the further
conclusions which have since been reached.
The tension which has prevailed from time to time in Palestine is
mainly due to apprehensions, which are entertained both by sections of
the Arab and by sections of the Jewish population. These
apprehensions, so far as the Arabs are concerned are partly based upon
exaggerated interpretations of the meaning of the [Balfour]
Declaration favouring the establishment of a Jewish National Home in
Palestine, made on behalf of His Majesty's Government on 2nd November,
1917.
Unauthorized statements have been made to the effect that the purpose
in view is to create a wholly Jewish Palestine. Phrases have been used
such as that Palestine is to become "as Jewish as England is English."
His Majesty's Government regard any such expectation as impracticable
and have no such aim in view. Nor have they at any time contemplated,
as appears to be feared by the Arab delegation, the disappearance or
the subordination of the Arabic population, language, or culture in
Palestine. They would draw attention to the fact that the terms of the
Declaration referred to do not contemplate that Palestine as a whole
should be converted into a Jewish National Home, but that such a Home
should be founded `in Palestine.' In this connection it has been
observed with satisfaction that at a meeting of the Zionist Congress,
the supreme governing body of the Zionist Organization, held at
Carlsbad in September, 1921, a resolution was passed expressing as the
official statement of Zionist aims "the determination of the Jewish
people to live with the Arab people on terms of unity and mutual
respect, and together with them to make the common home into a
flourishing community, the upbuilding of which may assure to each of
its peoples an undisturbed national development."
It is also necessary to point out that the Zionist Commission in
Palestine, now termed the Palestine Zionist Executive, has not desired
to possess, and does not possess, any share in the general
administration of the country. Nor does the special position assigned
to the Zionist Organization in Article IV of the Draft Mandate for
Palestine imply any such functions. That special position relates to
the measures to be taken in Palestine affecting the Jewish population,
and contemplates that the organization may assist in the general
development of the country, but does not entitle it to share in any
degree in its government.
Further, it is contemplated that the status of all citizens of
Palestine in the eyes of the law shall be Palestinian, and it has
never been intended that they, or any section of them, should possess
any other juridical status. So far as the Jewish population of
Palestine are concerned it appears that some among them are
apprehensive that His Majesty's Government may depart from the policy
embodied in the Declaration of 1917. It is necessary, therefore, once
more to affirm that these fears are unfounded, and that that
Declaration, re affirmed by the Conference of the Principle Allied
Powers at San Remo and again in the Treaty of Sevres, is not
susceptible of change.
During the last two or three generations the Jews have recreated in
Palestine a community, now numbering 80,000, of whom about one fourth
are farmers or workers upon the land. This community has its own
political organs; an elected assembly for the direction of its
domestic concerns; elected councils in the towns; and an organization
for the control of its schools. It has its elected Chief Rabbinate and
Rabbinical Council for the direction of its religious affairs. Its
business is conducted in Hebrew as a vernacular language, and a Hebrew
Press serves its needs. It has its distinctive intellectual life and
displays considerable economic activity. This community, then, with
its town and country population, its political, religious, and social
organizations, its own language, its own customs, its own life, has in
fact "national" characteristics. When it is asked what is meant by the
development of the Jewish National Home in Palestine, it may be
answered that it is not the imposition of a Jewish nationality upon
the inhabitants of Palestine as a whole, but the further development
of the existing Jewish community, with the assistance of Jews in other
parts of the world, in order that it may become a centre in which the
Jewish people as a whole may take, on grounds of religion and race, an
interest and a pride. But in order that this community should have the
best prospect of free development and provide a full opportunity for
the Jewish people to display its capacities, it is essential that it
should know that it is in Palestine as of right and not on the
sufferance. That is the reason why it is necessary that the existence
of a Jewish National Home in Palestine should be internationally
guaranteed, and that it should be formally recognized to rest upon
ancient historic connection.
This, then, is the interpretation which His Majesty's Government place
upon the Declaration of 1917, and, so understood, the Secretary of
State is of opinion that it does not contain or imply anything which
need cause either alarm to the Arab population of Palestine or
disappointment to the Jews.
For the fulfilment of this policy it is necessary that the Jewish
community in Palestine should be able to increase its numbers by
immigration. This immigration cannot be so great in volume as to
exceed whatever may be the economic capacity of the country at the
time to absorb new arrivals. It is essential to ensure that the
immigrants should not be a burden upon the people of Palestine as a
whole, and that they should not deprive any section of the present
population of their employment. Hitherto the immigration has fulfilled
these conditions. The number of immigrants since the British
occupation has been about 25,000.
It is necessary also to ensure that persons who are politically
undesirable be excluded from Palestine, and every precaution has been
and will be taken by the Administration to that end.
It is intended that a special committee should be established in
Palestine, consisting entirely of members of the new Legislative
Council elected by the people, to confer with the administration upon
matters relating to the regulation of immigration. Should any
difference of opinion arise between this committee and the
Administration, the matter will be referred to His Majesty's
Government, who will give it special consideration. In addition, under
Article 81 of the draft Palestine Order in Council, any religious
community or considerable section of the population of Palestine will
have a general right to appeal, through the High Commissioner and the
Secretary of State, to the League of Nations on any matter on which
they may consider that the terms of the Mandate are not being
fulfilled by the Government of Palestine.
With reference to the Constitution which it is now intended to
establish in Palestine, the draft of which has already been published,
it is desirable to make certain points clear. In the first place, it
is not the case, as has been represented by the Arab Delegation, that
during the war His Majesty's Government gave an undertaking that an
independent national government should be at once established in
Palestine. This representation mainly rests upon a letter dated the
24th October, 1915, from Sir Henry McMahon, then His Majesty's High
Commissioner in Egypt, to the Sharif of Mecca, now King Hussein of the
Kingdom of the Hejaz. That letter is quoted as conveying the promise
to the Sherif of Mecca to recognise and support the independence of
the Arabs within the territories proposed by him. But this promise was
given subject to a reservation made in the same letter, which excluded
from its scope, among other territories, the portions of Syria lying
to the west of the District of Damascus. This reservation has always
been regarded by His Majesty's Government as covering the vilayet of
Beirut and the independent Sanjak of Jerusalem. The whole of Palestine
west of the Jordan was thus excluded from Sir. Henry McMahon's pledge.
Nevertheless, it is the intention of His Majesty's overnment to foster
the establishment of a full measure of self government in Palestine.
But they are of the opinion that, in the special circumstances of that
country, this should be accomplished by gradual stages and not
suddenly. The first step was taken when, on the institution of a Civil
Administration, the nominated Advisory Council, which now exists, was
established. It was stated at the time by the High Commissioner that
this was the first step in the development of self governing
institutions, and it is now proposed to take a second step by the
establishment of a Legislative Council containing a large proportion
of members elected on a wide franchise. It was proposed in the
published draft that three of the members of this Council should be
non official persons nominated by the High Commissioner, but
representations having been made in opposition to this provision,
based on cogent considerations, the Secretary of State is prepared to
omit it. The legislative Council would then consist of the High
Commissioner as President and twelve elected and ten official members.
The Secretary of State is of the opinion that before a further measure
of self government is extended to Palestine and the Assembly placed in
control over the Executive, it would be wise to allow some time to
elapse. During this period the institutions of the country will have
become well established; its financial credit will be based on firm
foundations, and the Palestinian officials will have been enabled to
gain experience of sound methods of government. After a few years the
situation will be again reviewed, and if the experience of the working
of the constitution now to be established so warranted, a larger share
of authority would then be extended to the elected representatives of
the people.
The Secretary of State would point out that already the present
administration has transferred to a Supreme Council elected by the
Moslem community of Palestine the entire control of Moslem Religious
endowments (Waqfs), and of the Moslem religious Courts. To this
Council the Administration has also voluntarily restored considerable
revenues derived from ancient endowments which have been sequestrated
by the Turkish Government. The Education Department is also advised by
a committee representative of all sections of the population, and the
Department of Commerce and Industry has the benefit of the co
operation of the Chambers of Commerce which have been established in
the principal centres. It is the intention of the Administration to
associate in an increased degree similar representative committees
with the various Deparments of the Government.
The Secretary of State believes that a policy upon these lines,
coupled with the maintenance of the fullest religious liberty in
Palestine and with scrupulous regard for the rights of each community
with reference to its Holy Places, cannot but commend itself to the
various sections of the population, and that upon this basis may be
built up that a spirit of cooperation upon which the future progress
and prosperity of the Holy Land must largely depend.
- The Avalon Project at Yale Law School
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/brwh1922.htm
<< In the 1920s, Jewish immigration was slight, but the Jewish
<< communities
<<made great economic progress.
Jewish immigration to Palestine began in the closing year of
WWI, due to the Russian civil war, in such numbers that the British
were unprepared for it.
<<In 1929 there was serious Jewish-Arab
< violence
<<occasioned by a clash at the Western, or Wailing, Wall in Jerusalem.
Very understated. The "Jewish-Arab violence" - in fact, Arab massacres
of Jews throughout the country- was such that the British brought in
extra army units from Egypt.
August 1929
Total Jewish casualties: 469 (incl entire family of future
Chief of Staff Mordechai Makleff).
Arabs assaulted Jews praying at the Kotel, attacked Jews in Neve
Yaakov, Mekor Haim, Atarot, Romema, Beit Hakerem, Talpiot,
Ramat Rachel, Motza and elsewhere in J'lem and Palestine;
Jews were attacked in Safed, Hebron and Jaffo-Tel Aviv, and
4,000 Jews forced to flee their homes. On 29th August, the
British rushed in reinforcements from Egypt to quell the violence.
"The first house attacked was a large Jewish house on
the main road, and the occupants locked themselves in.
For some unknown reason the gates were opened to allow
two young boys to leave, and they were immediately
killed. This inflamed the Arabs, who entered the house
and beat or stabbed the inmates to death. The local
police force, which consisted of only a British Officer,
two Arab Officers and 30 Arabs, made every effort to
control the situation, but the crowd was out of hand,
and attacked other Jewish houses, beating and stabbing
the inhabitants--men, women and children. The police
fired, but the situation was not definitely in hand
until the arrival of British police and Royal Air Force
personnel from Jerusalem."
- Times of London, 30 Aug 1929
>>A
<<British report found that Arabs feared the economic and political
<<consequences of continued Jewish immigration with its attendant land
<<purchases. Zionists were angered when a new White Paper (1930) urged
<<limiting immigration, but they were placated by Prime Minister
Ramsay
<<MacDonald (1931).
Translation: Ramsay Mac rescinded the 1930 White Paper limiting
Jewish immigration.
<< The rise of Nazism in Europe during the 1930s led to a great
increase
< in
<<immigration. Whereas there were about 5,000 immigrants authorized in
1932,
<<about 62,000 were authorized in 1935.
Between Hitler's rise to power in 1933 and the outbreak of the
Mufti-instigated
riots of 1936, the greatest number of Jews settled in Israel, most of
them from
Germany and Poland.
Jewish immigration to Israel
1924 - 13,892
1925 - 34,386
1926 - 13,855
1927 - 3,034
1928 - 2,178
1929 - 5,249
1930 - 4,944
1931 - 4,075
1932 - 12,533
1933 - 37,337
1934 - 45,267
1935 - 66,472
1936 - 29,595
1937 - 10,629
1938 - 14,675
1939 - 31,195
1940 - 10,643
1941 - 4,592
The White Paper of 1939 curtailed Jewish immigation to a total only
75,000
for the following five years.
>>Arabs conducted strikes and
<> boycotts;
<<a general strike in 1936, organized by Haj Amin al Husayni, mufti of
<<Jerusalem, lasted six months. Some Arabs acquired weapons and formed
a
<<guerrilla force.
Left out the fact that the Arabs of Palestine were strongly pro-Nazi,
that Amin al Husseini had links to the Nazis as early as 1935, and
that
the weapons he acquired were supplied by the Nazis. This also leaves
out the fact -as do most "Zionis" histories - that the Arab Riots of
936-39
were as much an internicene civil war between rival Arab clans as they
were anti-British and anti-Jewish. Hence the discrepancy in the
casualty
figures for the "Disturbances": 610 British, 2,394 Jews, 3,764 Arabs.
"The fighting among Jews, Arabs and the British ultimately claimed
several thousand lives and inflicted tens of millions of pounds of
property damage. But for the Arabs there was another bitter
assessment. Even in exile, Haj Amin was making a supreme
bid to consolidate his power in Arab Palestine. At his order,
hundreds of Arab notables, among them prominent members of
the Nashashibi National Defense Party, were either murdered or
terrorized into fleeing the country."
[Husseini victims incl: mayors of Haifa, Nablus, and Hebron,
mukhtars of Caeasea, Majdal (and his wife), wife and three
sons of the mukhtar of Deir es-Shaiekh, Ibrahim Yusuf of
Tiberias municipal council, Hassan Sidqi al-Dajani of Jlem
municipal council - remaining council members fled - finally,
Fakhri Bey al-Nashashibi, gunned down on the streets of
Baghdad by a member of Haj Amin's organization.]
"Efforts by Fakhri Bey al-Nashashibi, leader of the anti-Husseini
factiom, to mobilize a counterassault against this terror campaign
were largely unsuccessful. The Mufti's offensive grew in scope
and momentum, until by the end of 1939 his victims exceeded 3,000.
Egypt and Lebanon were crowded with nearly 18,000 Arab fugitives
of the terror."
- H.M. Sachar, A History of Israel, pp 212-213
>>The Peel commission (1937), finding British promises to
<<Zionists and Arabs irreconcilable, declared the mandate unworkable
and
<<recommended the partition of Palestine into Jewish, Arab, and
British
<<(largely the holy places) mandatory states. The Zionists reluctantly
<<approved partition, but the Arabs rejected it, objecting
particularly to
< the
<<proposal that the Arab population be forcibly transferred out of the
<<proposed Jewish state.
The Arabs did not reject the proposals of the Peel Report due to any
imaginary provision that Arabs would "be forcibly transferred." They
rejected the Peel report because it contained ANY proposed Jewish
state.
They wanted all Israel to be theirs, and they were supported by their
good friends in Berlin, who also rejected the Peel partition plan.
<< The British dropped the partition idea and announced a new
policy
< (1939
<<White Paper). Fifteen thousand Jews a year would be allowed to
immigrate
< for
<<the next five years, after which Jewish immigration would be subject
to
< Arab
<<acquiescence; Jewish land purchases were to be restricted; and
within 10
<<years an independent, binational Palestine would be established. The
<<Zionists were shocked by what they considered a betrayal of the
Balfour
<<Declaration. The Arabs also rejected the plan, demanding instead the
<<immediate creation of an Arab Palestine, the prohibition of further
<<immigration, and a review of the status of all Jewish immigrants
since
< 1918.
In short, the Arabs wanted it all - particularly the lands the Jews
had
developed - with the Jews relegated to the status of dhimmis.
<< The outbreak of World War II prevented the implementation of the
plan,
<<except for the restriction on land transfers. The Zionists and most
Arabs
<<supported Britain in the war (although Haj Amin al Husayni was in
Germany
<<and negotiated Palestine's future with Hitler),
Most Arabs did NOT support Britain during WWII.
>but tension inside
< Palestine
<<increased. The Haganah, a secret armed group organized by the Jewish
< Agency,
<<and the Irgun and the Stern Gang, terrorist groups, were active.
British
<<officials were killed by the terrorists.
The Hagana fought on the side of the British; the Etzel (Irgun)
declared
its support of the British, and its commander was killed in Baghad
while
on an undercover mission for the British. The Lechi (Stern Gang) were
negligible.
>>The horrible plight of European
<<Jewry led influential forces in the United States to lobby for
support of
< an
<<independent Jewish state, and President Truman requested that
Britain
< permit
<<the admission of 100,000 Jews.
In August 1945. Which the British rejected. A year and a half later,
Bevin publicly regretted that rejection.
<<Illegal immigration, often involving
<<survivors of Hitler's death camps, took place on a large scale. The
<<independent Arab states organized the Arab League to exert
internationally
<<what pressure they could against the Zionists.
"Large scale" indeed. Of the over 100,000 Jews who tried to enter
Palestine following the war, only 10,000 made it. The rest were
interred.
<< An Anglo-American commission recommended (1946) that Britain
continue
<<administering Palestine, rescind the land-transfer restrictions, and
admit
<<100,000 Jews, and that the underground Jewish armed groups be
disbanded. A
<<plan for autonomy for Jews and Arabs within Palestine was discussed
at a
<<London conference (1947) of British, Arabs, and Zionists, but no
agreement
<<could be reached.
No agreement was reached because, again, the Arabs rejected any
proposal
which did not grant them all of western Palestine.
>>The British, declaring their mandate unworkable and
<<despairing of finding a solution, turned the Palestine problem over
to the
<<United Nations (Feb., 1947). At that time there were about 1,091,000
<<Muslims, 614,000 Jews, and 146,000 Christians in Palestine.
And again, the Arabs rejected the compromise which would have given
them a second Arab state in British Palestine, and elected instead to
"finish Hitler's work."
Deborah
Deborah Sharavi
>news:4001...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>>TheMan: That history is the official PLO version and it merely forgets to
>>mention the truth or relevant facts in some places.
>>For instance: you mention the number of Arabs in Palestine faitly
>inflated.
>>You forget to mention that most of that number were left in Jordan
> occupied
>>West Bank and not under Israeli occupation.
>>But there is quite a bit of falsehood there too.
>>The descendants of those exiled by the Romans want their land back. They
>>waited 2000 years.
>You talk a load of shit, all this history came from www.encyclopedia.com,
>are you telling me it's a secret Hamas terrorist front. Must be a big
>onspiracy!! Those awful Palestinians have hacked into this website and
>changed history to make the Jews sound bad.
An encyclopedia is nothing more than an abbreviated reference,
and yes, the encyclopedia.com entry does leave out a great
deal of facts, and gets a few others wrong.
>Also please provide proof that the Jewish illegal immigrants from Europe are
>descendants of Palestine.
British researchers in 1998 found high coorelation between
Israeli Jews and Yemenite Jews.
>You can't, Jews claim Israel based on religion,
>many if not most probably had no relatives whatsoever come from ancient
>Palestine.
The modern state of Israel is not based on the bible, and
the Jews of Israel do not claim the state based on religion.
Deborah
raven1
wrote:
>
>"raven1" <quotht...@nevermore.com> wrote in message
>news:7pi400hu1qeetq3t9...@4ax.com...
>>
>> Personally, my reaction to both sides is straight out of Shakespeare:
>> "a plague on both your houses!". Obviously neither side has any
>> interest whatsoever in peace,
>
>How can you say this in the face of all the agreements that Israel has
>signed and begun to implement, only to have the PLO renege on them???
Illegal settlements come to mind.
JTEM
"randum_proser" <sp...@hotmail.com> wrote
> So you think terrorist attacks (against citizens) are
> justified? Or do you just condone them?
One man's "terrorist" is another man's "freedom fighter."
Example: Ask the average Israeli if their defense forces
in the west bank are "terrorists," even with all the civilian
casualties they are responsible for.
Next, ask the Palestinians the exact same question about
the Israeli defense forces.
Totally different take there. Yup. You'd get two totally
different views on the dead Palestinian women & children.
not_over_the_hill
So, NOW you say that Israel = Jews???
Which jews are you referring to?
The Biblical jews?
If so... you lose.
raven1
wrote:
>"randum_proser" <sp...@hotmail.com> wrote
>
>> So you think terrorist attacks (against citizens) are
>> justified? Or do you just condone them?
>
>One man's "terrorist" is another man's "freedom fighter."
And it is exactly this idiotic mantra that will ensure that the
conflict *never* ends.
JTEM
"raven1" <quotht...@nevermore.com> wrote
> >Ethnic cleansing invites a violent response.
> So does "genocide", which is another completely hyperbolic
> term I have often heard inappropriately applied to the
> situation.
There's the ever so slight difference here, in that Israel really
is practicing ethnic cleansing, while this "genocide" is
restricted to political rhetoric intended for domestic Palestinian
consumption.
Someone saying that they'd like to kill you just isn't the priority
when someone else is taking pot shots at me right now.
It's not a case of: "Six of one/Half dozen of the other."
> It's hard to even begin to discuss the issues when they're
> so obfuscated by a cloud of rhetoric.
So do what I do: Ignore the rhetoric and concentrate on the
actions.
Better yet: Concentrate on those actions which you must
bear some of the responsibility.
What Israel does, my government supports with billions of
dollars in cash (and weapons), plus U.N. vetoes to protect
Israel from the world community.
My government. My representatives. My tax dollars.
Our hands aren't clean, and I want them to be.
JTEM
"Jon" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote
> Is that supposed to be an answer?
What answer would please you, after you've already
demonstrated your willingness to lie in defense of
brutal ethnic cleansing?
JTEM
"Susan Cohen" <fla...@verizon.net> wrote
> How can you say this in the face of all the agreements
> that Israel has signed and begun to implement, only
> to have the PLO renege on them???
Agreement?
What's there to "agree"?
Just leave. End it. Get out. Go home. Stop fighting. Stop
killing.
Why is that so hard?
"No, see, I can't end the brutal military occupation & ethnic
cleansing because... because... errr... because... THEY SAID
MEAN THINGS TO ME!"
raven1
wrote:
>"raven1" <quotht...@nevermore.com> wrote
>
>> >Ethnic cleansing invites a violent response.
>
>> So does "genocide", which is another completely hyperbolic
>> term I have often heard inappropriately applied to the
>> situation.
>
>There's the ever so slight difference here
...in that your snips are absurdly convenient for you to avoid ever
addressing anything of substance.
JTEM
"raven1" <quotht...@nevermore.com> wrote
> >One man's "terrorist" is another man's "freedom fighter."
> And it is exactly this idiotic mantra that will ensure that the
> conflict *never* ends.
Who do you imagine wants the conflict to end?
Certainly not Israel, which had 20 years to pull out of the west
bank, leaving Jordan as their neighbor. Israel refused, and after
20 years Jordan surrendered all claims to the west bank in
favor of a Palestinian state.
Israel is dealing with Arafat right now because Israel refused
to make peace with the alternative, Jordan.
And, you're right, Arafat wants peace no more than Israel. Just
as a real peace would piss off a huge & politically powerful
block of "GAWD GAVE US THE LAND" voters & politicians
in Israel, peace with Israel would seriously piss off the Arab
hard liners.
Arafat no more wants to piss off the Arab hard liners than Israeli
politicians want to piss off Israeli hard liners.
That's why they invented the "peace process" to begin with. Not
because both sides couldn't figure out what they were doing wrong,
or how they might manage to stop doing it, but because neither
side had any intention of stopping & needed the appearance of
working towards peace, even as they sharpened their blades.
Fuck 'em both!
Who really cares what Sharon or Arafat wants? As an American,
it's all irrelevant. What is relevant is that my representatives are
using U.S. taxpayer dollars -- and our seat at the U.N. -- to support
the blood bath. That's what has to stop. That's what I care about.
Let Sharon succeed in uniting the Arab world and bringing about
the complete destruction of Israel & her population. Let the Arabs
condemn tens of million of their own people to nuclear death,
and Mecca to a crater. What do I care? In the end, we can't protect
people from themselves. They've chosen the path to destruction. It
was their choice to make and they made it.
Mike Painter
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > With the ones who are circumcised on the 8th day. The Ishmaelites
> > circumcise
> > > theirs on the 13th day.
> >
> > And they got the custom from Egypt.
> >
>
> The first Jew to be circumcised, Abraham received the instruction from
God.
You believe the bible I'll believe what modern religious scholars say.
>
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The Jewish people are those descendents.
> > > > >
> > > > So all the Jews in the world are descendants of these tribes?
> > >
> > >
> > > Yes. Now the tribes are returning to the Land. This process is called
> > > Ingathering of the Exiles.
> > >
> > >
> > > > When the person who can trace their ancestry in China back thousands
> of
> > > > years converts and moves to Israel, they automatically become the
> > > descendant
> > > > of one of the tribes?
> > >
> > > If their mother is Jewish, they are a Member of the Tribe (of Judah).
> > >
> > > > Sounds like the Mormons who baptize the dead relations of a new
> convert.
> > >
> > > Nothing even remotely close.
> >
> > Very close, you are claiming that as soon as a woman with *no*
> > demonstratable relation to one of the tribes mentioned in the bible
> > converts, then they are descendants of a tribe.
>
> Yes, because of the Jewish soul she receives, or a man receives at the
time
> of their Orthodox conversion. It is taught that every single soul of
future
> converts of the world were present at Sinai at the giving of the Torah to
> the Jewish people.
So she didn't have a soul before?
>
> > One minute your Chinese for 4000 years and the next you are a member of
a
> > tribe from the mid East.
>
> The soul lives through reincarnation and migrates. This is one of the
tenets
> of our 13 principles. It is easy for a soul to be a chinese person in one
> life and a hindu or a Jew in the next. It is also possible for a person to
> devolve spiritually and reincarnate into an animal.
>
Who said this didn't sound like the Mormons?
Mike Painter
"JTEM" <gymr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:edmdnaZiKZO...@comcast.com...
>
> "Jon" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote
>
> > So how come the WB Palestinians revolted against
> > Jordan?
>
> There's been numerous examples of citizens rebelling
> against their government, too numerous to list here.
>
> The Palestinians were citizens of Jordan.
>
A lot like the Indians were citizens of the USA
JTEM
"raven1" <quotht...@nevermore.com> wrote
> ...in that your snips are absurdly convenient for you
> to avoid ever addressing anything of substance.
There is no "substance" here.
The Arabs & Israelis have chosen the path to destruction.
Period. Neither of us has the power to alter the situation
in the least, and it's really not any of our business anyway.
What is our business is the U.S. governments role in affairs.
That is my concern, and the concern of every U.S. citizen.
Bringing peace to a foreign population that is bent on self
destruction is not our concern.
I don't want my government funding a brutal 36 year occupation
and ethnic cleansing. I don't want my government protecting
this human rights nightmare from the world community with its
Security Council veto power. I don't want the hands of the U.S.
taxpayers stained with the blood of innocent civilians, and I
want it to stop.
Fuck Arafat. Fuck Sharon. They & their people have chosen
violence, destruction. Let them have it. Maybe after Sharon
succeeds in unify all of the Arab world against Israel... maybe
after the Arabs get their wish and Mecca is a radio active
cinder that must be avoided for the next 10,000 years... maybe
then the two sides will decide that their civilian populations
are more important that appeasing their hard liners.
Maybe, but I doubt it.
Israel's hard liners will continue to preach ethnic cleansing
on the lands GAWD gave them, while the Arab hard liners
will gladly sacrifice whole population centers in order to
exact their revenge.
We can't stop them, and, what's more, we shouldn't even try.
Why impose a peace of people who will only break it the
first opportunity they get?
Fuck 'em. They want to die? Let them die. Let's just end our
involvement. That's all I want. I want the U.S. government,
*My* government, to end its active role in the slaughter.