Moshe Dayan's eye patch ends up for sale on eBay for $75,000
torresD
The Department of Defense
"torresD" <torr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:yMaFe.4660$6f....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=604300&contrassID=19
Wow, only 75K? If I had the money, I would pay more for it, he should be in
the military hall of fame for being one hell of a badass, and military
strategist.
AntiZ...@hotmail.com
in Gaza for all to piss upon.
The Department of Defense
<AntiZ...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1122320317.9...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> The Palestinian Authority should buy it and place it in a public urinal
> in Gaza for all to piss upon.
LOL, pissed off are we teddy? Moshe kicked serious ass. LOLOLOLOL
Rune
> in Gaza for all to piss upon.
You mean kinda like all those torn-up piss soaked Korans in public urinals
that have been popping up left and right the last months? It's almost a fad.
AntiZ...@hotmail.com
pissing in his eye seems to be a fine tribute to the war criminal and
terrorist Dyan. Dyan was also responsible for many terrorist attacks
upon the British including hangings of British troops, bombings and
murders, so perhaps the Brits may buy it to piss on him themselves.
dsha...@hotmail.com
>No, just think it would be a fitting tribute to the scumbag, a symbolic
>pissing in his eye seems to be a fine tribute to the war criminal and
>terrorist Dyan. Dyan was also responsible for many terrorist attacks
>upon the British including hangings of British troops, bombings and
>murders
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Does Thermidor EVER get anything right? Dayan wasn't
responsible for any attack on the Brits. What he was responsible for
was gunning down Jews at Kfar Vitkin in June 1948.
Deborah
The Department of Defense
<AntiZ...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1122322950.4...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> No, just think it would be a fitting tribute to the scumbag, a symbolic
> pissing in his eye seems to be a fine tribute to the war criminal and
> terrorist Dyan.
Dayan was no war criminal. He was a war hero. A first rate strategist. Now
if the Palestinians wanted something to piss on, Arafats headdress would be
more appropriate, since Arafat caused much of their missery.
dsha...@hotmail.com
>Dayan was no war criminal. He was a war hero.
No, he wasn't.
>A first rate strategist.
No, he wasn't.
>Now if the Palestinians wanted something to piss on,
>Arafats headdress would be more appropriate, since
>Arafat caused much of their missery.
The Egyptian was bad news.
Deborah
dsha...@hotmail.com
>he should be in the military hall of fame for being one
>hell of a badass, and military strategist.
He wasn't. What he was a genius at is self-promotion and
giving press conferences.
Deborah
The Department of Defense
<dsha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1122325927....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> The Department of Defense wrote:
> >Dayan was no war criminal. He was a war hero.
>
> No, he wasn't.
>
> >A first rate strategist.
>
> No, he wasn't.
Really, the History channel special that I seen on him told a very different
story.
El Bleacho
> <dsha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1122325927....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> The Department of Defense wrote:
>>> Dayan was no war criminal. He was a war hero.
>>
>> No, he wasn't.
>>
>>> A first rate strategist.
>>
>> No, he wasn't.
>
> Really, the History channel special that I seen on him told a very
> different story.
As do pretty much all the other respected authorities on the subject of his
life and history.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Dayan.html
http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/people/BIOS/dayan.html
--
_____________________
I am hung like Einstein;
and as smart as a horse!
The Department of Defense
<dsha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1122325414.9...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >"torresD" <torr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:yMaFe.4660$6f....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
>>http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=604300&contrassID=19
>
> >it, he should be in the military hall of fame for being
> >one hell of a badass, and military strategist.
>
> genius at was self-promotion.
Well, the Jewish Virtual Library says differently, and if I remember the
History channel special correctly, he was the one that ordered the planes to
fly into the Egypts lines cutting communication, there was some creative
strategy to that.
El Bleacho
>> Dayan wasn't a military strategist. What he was is a
>> genius at was self-promotion.
>
> Well, the Jewish Virtual Library says differently, and if I remember
> the History channel special correctly, he was the one that ordered
> the planes to fly into the Egypts lines cutting communication, there
> was some creative strategy to that.
Don't waste your breath. It's falling on deaf ears.
The Department of Defense
"El Bleacho" <ElBl...@Clorox.gov> wrote in message
news:C0dFe.825$gt5...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
Deborah doesn't have deaf ears. I would like to hear what she has to say on
it.
El Bleacho
If she believed that Moshe Dayan had no military skills; she would have
backed it up with empirical proof already. Don't hold your breath. She is
not now, nor has she ever been an officer in the IDF or the US Military.
She is not now, nor has she ever been acedemically trained and conferred a
degree from a military academy. She is not now, nor has she ever been a
trained mercinary. So if she cannot use her own personal knowledge to
support her assertion, and since all of the major historical organizations
view Moshe Dayan as a military mastermind; all she can do is spend 15
minutes making a retarded Geocities site and using that as her cited
reference.
The Department of Defense
"El Bleacho" <ElBl...@Clorox.gov> wrote in message
> El Bleacho wrote:
> > The Department of Defense wrote:
> >> <dsha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >>> Dayan wasn't a military strategist. What he was is a
> >>> genius at was self-promotion.
> >>
> >> Well, the Jewish Virtual Library says differently, and if I remember
> >> the History channel special correctly, he was the one that ordered
> >> the planes to fly into the Egypts lines cutting communication, there
> >> was some creative strategy to that.
> >
> > Don't waste your breath. It's falling on deaf ears.
>
>
> If she believed that Moshe Dayan had no military skills; she would have
> backed it up with empirical proof already.
Maybe she is away from her computer?
Don't hold your breath. She is
> not now, nor has she ever been an officer in the IDF or the US Military.
> She is not now, nor has she ever been acedemically trained and conferred
a
> degree from a military academy. She is not now, nor has she ever been a
> trained mercinary. So if she cannot use her own personal knowledge to
> support her assertion, and since all of the major historical
organizations
> view Moshe Dayan as a military mastermind; all she can do is spend 15
> minutes making a retarded Geocities site and using that as her cited
> reference.
I have NEVER, EVER seen her do that. I will just wait for her response.
AntiZ...@hotmail.com
was involved in ethnic cleansing according to Uri Mileshtin, an
official historian for the Israeli Defense Force, who has written and
spoken about the use of bacteriological agents. According to
Mileshtin, Moshe Dyan, a division commander at the time, gave orders in
1948 to remove Arabs from their villages, bulldoze their homes, and
render water wells unusable with typhus and dysentery bacteria.
"Acre was so situated that it could practically defend itself with
one big gun, so the Haganah put bacteria into the spring that fed the
town. The spring was called Capri and it ran from the north near a
kibbutz. The Haganah put typhus bacteria into the water going to Acre,
the people got sick, and the Jewish forces occupied Acre. This worked
so well that they sent a Haganah division dressed as Arabs into Gaza,
where there were Egyptian forces, and the Egyptians caught them putting
two cans of bacteria, typhus and dysentery, into the water supply in
wanton disregard of the civilian population. 'In war there is no
sentiment,' one the captured Haganah men was quoted as saying."
Above is proof itself that Dyan was a war criminal, but later he was
also the one who forced the inhabitants of Arab neighborhoods in
Kalkilya to leave on foot during the war started by Israel in 1967.
That is also war crime and thus he most certainly is a war criminal and
no hero.
Dyans only good quality is that he occasionally told the truth once
when he said; "Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab
villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I
do not blame you because geography books no longer exist, not only do
the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal
arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta;
Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushu'a in the
place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not one single place built in this
country that did not have a former Arab Population." ( Moshe Dayan,
Address to the Technion, Haifa, as quoted in Ha'aretz, April 4, 1969 )
So perhaps he was just following the illegal and immoral orders of the
Israeli war criminal David Ben-Gurion, but since he was never brought
to trial, we will never know.
El Bleacho
>> Don't hold your breath. She is
>> not now, nor has she ever been an officer in the IDF or the US
>> Military. She is not now, nor has she ever been acedemically
>> trained and conferred a degree from a military academy. She is not
>> now, nor has she ever been a trained mercinary. So if she cannot
>> use her own personal knowledge to support her assertion, and since
>> all of the major historical organizations view Moshe Dayan as a
>> military mastermind; all she can do is spend 15 minutes making a
>> retarded Geocities site and using that as her cited reference.
>
> I have NEVER, EVER seen her do that. I will just wait for her
> response.
I have never seen her slam a Jewish hero as being falsely idolized. So
this is all new ground.
But hey; if she thinks she could have done a better job of commanding the
troops in the 1948 war, or the 1956 Sinai campaign, or could have been
pivotal in the cease-fire talks between Israel and Jordan, or could have
commanded the troops in the 1967 war, or could have commanded the 1973
war; let her have right at it. Next she can tell us how she could have
been elected to Knesset by the Labor Party, or formed her own party like he
did, or spent half a decade as a foreign minister; let her have at it.
There is not a real Jew on this planet that views Moshe Dayan as anything
other than Israel's greatest military leader, and second only to Golda Mier
as Israel's greatest political leader. Any person who slams Dayan *and*
claims to be a Jew should be ashamed of themselves. If she is not a Jew
and does not live in Israel; then I can forgive her this transgression.
ריעין ברתון‎/Riain Barton‎
"El Bleacho" <ElBl...@Clorox.gov> wrote in message
news:UQdFe.474$aT1...@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
:
:
ריעין ברתון‎/Riain Barton‎
"El Bleacho" <ElBl...@Clorox.gov> wrote in message
news:wkeFe.482$aT1...@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
:
:
dsha...@hotmail.com
>>>>genius at was self-promotion.
>>The Department of Defense wrote:
>>>Well, the Jewish Virtual Library says differently,
The piece errs in several places.
>>>and if I remember
>>>the History channel special correctly, he was the one >>>that ordered
>>>the planes to fly into the Egypts lines cutting >>>communication, there
>>>was some creative strategy to that.
>"El Bleacho" <ElBl...@Clorox.gov>wrote in message
>news:C0dFe.825$gt5...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
>>Don't waste your breath. It's falling on deaf ears.
The Department of Defense wrote:
>Deborah doesn't have deaf ears. I would like to hear what >she has to say on it.
>From the JVL:
"Dayan was born on May 20, 1915, on kibbutz Deganya Alef"
He wasn't born on Deganya Alef, but in a medical clinic in a nearby
town. In 1919 and 1926, the family was living in Haifa, in 1921 they
were in Tel Aviv. They moved around quite a bit.
In his autobiography, Dayan claimed his father was one of Deganyah's
founders; he wasn't. He also claims his father was in charge of the
founding of Deganyah B; Levi Eshkol was.
"During the riots of 1936-1939, he served with the special police
force in the Jezreel Valley and Galilee."
In 1936, Dayan was living in England, and receiving nasty notes from
his father about living the loafer's life. From March 1937 to October
1939, he was employed by the Mandatory government as one of the
supernumary guards (a ghaffir), and later headed a mixed
British-Palestinian mobile patrol, based in the Afula area, whose
function was to protect the British Iraq Petroleum Co.'s pipeline to
the Haifa terminus from sabotage by Arab terrorists. In 1938, he
became a member of the (legal unit) of Wingate's SNS. The Mosul-Haifa
pipeline of the Iraq Petroleum Company (the Anglo-Persian Oil Company,
Royal-Dutch Shell, and Standard Oil) completed in 1936 was one of the
favorite targets of Arab terrorists from 1937 to 1939. The Special
Night Squads were created to seize the initiative from the Arabs who
were blowing up the pipeline. In October 1939, Dayan was, of course,
one of the Forty Three arrested and imprisoned for carrying arms given
them by the Brits.
"When the British outlawed the Haganah in 1939, Dayan was arrested
and imprisoned for two years."
Less than a year and a half. When he was in the pokey, he asked his
wife to get him a copy of Gone With The Wind.
"Upon his release in 1941, Dayan joined the British army, where he
served with the forces that liberated Lebanon and Syria from Vichy
France during World War II."
He didn't join the British army; he joined the Palmach, which the
Special Operations Branch of the British Eighth Army employed in its
invasion of Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq beginning June 1941. He was
wounded in his first engagement on the Lebanese coast.
"Dayan was wounded in battle in Lebanon and lost his left eye."
He went to the roof of a building the Palmach had taken from Lebanese,
Vichy, and Nazi troops; stood up to look at the enemy through
binoculars, and was shot. Glass shards were driven through his eye, he
was evacuated to a hospital, and that ended his fighting career for the
rest of the war.
"He cooperated with British intelligence to set up a broadcasting
network for clandestine operations behind enemy lines in the event that
Palestine should fall to the Germans."
Dayan said he did. A lot of others worked on the project as well.
"He remained active in the Haganah until 1948."
Not too active, though he once took a suitcase of small arms to Enzo
Sereni in Baghdad. The museums were all closed when he was there, Dayan
wrote. (When he met Sadat, Sadat told him to warn them when he visited
Egypt, so they could lock the museums in Cairo.)
"Dayan's activities in the 1948 War of Independence began when he
commanded the defense of Jewish settlements in the Jordan Valley."
He never had any command of the Jordan valley settlements; he himself
wrote that he did not.
"He later commanded the battalion that attacked the city of Lydda"
He disregarded operational orders, deserted his positions around the
international airport, against his commander's orders, because he was
bored. He led the 89th to Lydda, where, on a 40-minute ride in and out
of the town, shot a bunch of Arabs. (Israel Geffen: "We did it in sort
of a gung-ho way, riding through the streets with all we had,
surprising them.") At the Teggart fortress on the Lydda-Ramle road, the
battalion came under heavy fire from a unit of the Transjordanian Arab
Legion, which rendered it out of commission, and caused other units to
be pulled from their positions in order to rescue them. The foreign
press and others - including Dayan -- made a big deal out of it, but
no one else thought much of it. Dayan's commander chewed him out,
then kicked him out of his brigade. Ben-Gurion told Dayan personally
that it was nothing more than "a prank - not war."
"and helped halt Egyptian forces on the southern front."
He muffed the operation in Karatya in July 1947, and, as a result, was
replaced as commander of the 89th by Teddy Eytan (Thadee Difre).
"In August 1948, he was appointed commander on the Jerusalem
front."
Where his chief activity seems to have been holding press
conferences and giving tea parties. In October 1948, he was
supposed to lead the Etzioni Brigade south to link up with
another brigade near Hebron, but he got cold feet and screwed
it up and led an assault on the wrong hill -- thanks to
his not wanting to be bothered with sending out a
reconaissance patrol. Then his officers couldn't find him.
In December was he was supposed to link up with Harel,
which was fighting around Hebron. But Dayan didn't
show...and he didn't show... and he didn't show...because
he was afraid of getting caught in daylight in the open.
He blamed "substandard troops" for that, too - same as
he blamed Shimon Avidan, the second most successful
field commander of the war, for his "substandard troops".
In Jerusalem, he took his kids on raids to steal fruit and
vegetables from the local farmers- and not just Arab farmers
either. One of his biographers mentions his fondness
for oranges. Whenever he was near a grove, he'd rob it
of armfuls of oranges. Yadin was cheesed off over his
thievery, Dayan wouldn't stop, When Yadin instituted
speed laws, he almost courtmartialed Dayan for doing
120 instead of holding it to whatever the much lower
limit was. Dayan retorted, "I have only one eye, what
do you want me to do, watch the speedometer or the
road?" Yadin got a good laugh over that, so he didn't
courtmartial him.
"In 1949, he participated in armistice talks with Jordanian officials
at Rhodes. Dayan's military prowess allowed him to rise to the rank of
chief of operations at General Headquarters in 1952, and, in 1953, he
was elected Chief of Staff of the armed forces."
Both Rabin and Dayan give slightly different accounts of Dayan's
assumption of command of the southern front. Most of the staff officers
quit rather than serve under Dayan.
"On October 29, 1956, Dayan led Israel's Suez campaign, an invasion
of the Sinai Peninsula after Egypt, Syria and Jordan signed a pact
stating as their goal the destruction of Israel."
Prior thereto, he got cold feet again, and advised Ben-Gurion to
replace him with Yigael Yadin and Yigal Alon. In '73, he simply froze
and advised retreat on all fronts.
"Dayan left the military in 1958 and entered his second career -
politics."
Politics was always Dayan's first career, though pilfering artifacts
and peddling them on the black market ran a close second.
"Dayan's reputation as an effective leader grew when he was appointed
Minister of Defense under Levi Eshkol just in time for the Six-Day War
in 1967 against Egypt, Jordan and Syria."
He became Defence Minister on 2nd June, three days before the start of
the war. When he showed up to be sworn in, there was nobody to swear
him in. He was a poster boy for the war; he had nothing to do with
winning it. His first question to the chief of staff was: "Do you
have a plan?"
He had two operational plans presented, the defence minister
opted for the extended plan. That was the sum of Dayan's
"changes" - except to order Rabin not to move on Jerusalem,
not to move on the Suez, not to move on the Golan, and to
concentrate on the capture of Sharm el-Sheik.
Rabin kept telling him Sharm el Sheikh wasn't that
important. But Dayan overrode Rabin and made him
divert a part of the army to Sharm. When they arrived,
there were no Egyptians in Sharm.
When the war started, Dayan was having coffee and rolls
with current mistress; by the time he got to the Pit, the
first wave was back from Egypt, and then he took
off to give a press conference or meet some politicians
or something. All he did was boost everyone's morale
(except, perhaps, Rabin's and Elazar's morale).
He stated shortly after the war that people who said
he just stepped in and found the army waiting for
him didn't know what they were talking about. But
that's exactly what happened.
His three "nos" to the general staff were: Don't go to the Suez,
don't take Jerusalem, don't attack the Syrians. Rabin ignored him
on the first, Alon talked Eshkol into overriding Dayan on the second;
on the third, see article below.
When the army reached the Suez, Dayan was off
another of his press conferences about how
Israel had no intention of approaching within
30 miles of the Suez. During the press conference,
he was notified by Rabin that the army was sitting
on the banks of the Suez. Rabin's reason was that
to have halted short wouldn't have been good for
Israel. Throughout the war, Dayan was very nervous
of offending the Soviets.
Sharon mentioned that Dayan was in the habit of giving
generalized orders and leaving the specifics to the
commanders.
"When the Syrians were shelling Israeli villages in Upper Galilee,
Dayan was the one who made the decision to launch a full-scale attack
against the Syrians."
He never made that decision. Rabin and Elazar maneuvered him into it.
On June 7th, Dado Elazar was still bitching to Rabin about Dayan's
orders not to attack the Syrians.
"At 6:30 a.m. on the previous day [June 6 ] the Syrians had
laid an artillery barrage on our settlements all along the
front. [On June 8]our undivided attention shifted to the
Syrian front...But the defense minister was filled with
anxiety about the prospect of Soviet intervention--and he
was not alone in his fears. No one in our political or
military leadership could promise that an all-out attack
on Syria would not result in Soviet involvement, nor could
anyone promise that such a dangerous development would
induce the Americans to deter the Soviets. On Wednesday
Dayan gave Dado permission to cross the Syrian border."
- Rabin, pp112-114
"From their commanding and well-fortified positions on the
[Golan] heights, the Syrians completely dominated the narrow
routes up the steep escarpment ... At 11:30 a.m. on Friday,
June 9, after Jordan was completely and Egypt almost out
of the campaign, our forces attacked the Syrian fortified
positions on [the Golan]. At noon on Friday, when Syria's
leaders realized the threat to the Golan Heights, they ...
ordered a withdrawal from the line of the Golan Heights and
the concentration of all forces in a deployment for the
defense of Damascus ... Thereafter, the Syrian troops
retreated and in many places fled in confusion and disorder
toward Damascus..The cease fire went into effect a day and
a half later."
- Dayan p. 373
"It was also Dayan who ended the fighting by arranging a cease-fire
with Syria through Chief of Staff of the UN Observer Corps, General Odd
Bull."
Piffle.
"Dayan was seen as "a solo performer, partly admired, partly feared
for his political stunts."
Can't argue that.
"After the war, Dayan controlled the territories occupied by the
Israeli Army."
Dayan wanted to be king of the Arabs. He let the army go to rack and
ruin, and was responsible for the Yom Kippur War.
"On Yom Kippur, October 6, 1973, Egyptian armies crossed the Suez
Canal, moved anti-aircraft missiles into the canal area, and waged war
on Israel. Israeli losses were high and Israel had too short a supply
of equipment to conduct a prolonged war. On October 22, a cease-fire
was declared, but the Israeli public's confidence had been severely
shaken. Israel had been unprepared for the surprise attack and unable
to repulse it quickly. The nation's lack of preparation was blamed on
Defense Minister Dayan and an outraged public demanded his
resignation."
The nation blamed Dayan for Israel's lack of preparation because it
was his fault. According to Chaim Herzog, Dayan was in a state of shock
from the first reports of the Egyptian attack in '73. Herzog doesn't
give him very high marks.
"The president of the Supreme Court set up a commission to
investigate the performance of generals during the war. The commission
recommended the resignation of the Chief of Staff, but reserved
judgement on Dayan."
No, it didn't. The Agranat commission said the actions of the
political leadership was outside the scope of its inquiry.
Dayan wrote that the Agranat Commission report clearly
exonerated him from blame for 1973. What is clear is
that the Commission clearly stated it was not in its
jurisdiction to examine the behaviour of the political
leaders (Dayan and Golda), only those of military
leaders (Elazar).
"Dayan was "loath to close his life story marked by the events of the
Yom Kippur War,"(2) and, in 1977, newly elected Likud Prime Minister
Menachem Begin gave him a second chance by offering him the post of
Minister of Foreign Affairs."
After Dayan deserted his party for Begin's party. And after he wrote
his autobiography tootling his own horn.
"Although Dayan was from the opposition Labor Party, he accepted the
appointment because he believed, "I could significantly influence
Israel's moves towards achieving a peace arrangement with our
neighboring Arab States and with the Palestinian inhabitants of Judea
and Samaria and the Gaza Strip."
He accepted the appointment because he wasn't going to get anything
better from Labour.
His last days were sad. He was nearly blind, his sons hated him, he
rarely saw his grandchildren, and one of his sons chewed him out so
viciously that the old man wept. Very sad.
Deborah
The Man Who Convinced Eshkol to Take the Golan
by David Bedein
http://israelvisit.co.il/BehindTheNews/#eshkoli
The course of history can be changed by the determination of one man
who
stands up for what he believes in when he is listened to by people who
are in a position of power.
The initiative to demand that Israel take the Golan Heights came from
not from real estate-seeking settlers who wanted to move to the Golan,
but
rather from the residents of the Upper Galilee, or, to put it better,
directly from the regional Mayor of the Upper Galilee, Yaakov (Yankela)
Eshkoli, the man who led the delegation of Upper Galilee residents to
lobby Israeli Prime Minister Levi Eshkol and the Israeli government on
the
fourth night of the Six Day War.
Eshkoli's mission: to convince Eshkol to issue an order to the Israel
Defence Forces Northern regional command to take the Golan Heights and
to remove the Syrian threat, once and for all, from over the heads of
the
Galilee settlements.
Eshkoli, now 88, was elected four times to be the regional mayor of the
Galilee, and served in his position from 1955-1971
Speaking with remarkable resilience and a clear memory after 20 years
of
severe heart disease, the aging Eshkoli, with his ninety year old wife
Yaffa at his side, cannot keep repeating how pleased he is that he has
lived
to tell his story, while talks with Syria get under way and while the
future of the Golan is indeed on the agenda.
"13 years ago I had a heart attack and the doctors declared me to be
clinically dead. I guess I recovered so that I could tell my story
today", Eshkoli says, with a wink and a twinkle in his eye, when I met
him on
his porch, on Kibbutz Cfar Giladi.
Cfar Giladi is one of the oldest Galilee settlements, located just
north
of Kiryat Shmoneh and sandwiched in between Lebanon and the Golan
Heights,
where he and Yaffa, now 90 years old, have been kibbutz members since
1932.
Eshkoli says that he is always eager to relate the role that he played
in convincing the Israeli government to take the Golan in the midst of
the
1967 war.
As Eshkoli tells it, by the fourth day of the 1967 war, it was clear
that Israel had delivered a solid defeat to Jordan and Egypt.
That left Syria, which had been raining a steady stream of rockets into
the Hula Valley below, leaving the residents of 31 settlements in the
Upper
Galilee region in Eshkoli's jurisdiction to spend those glorious days
of
1967 in deep underground bunkers, glued to their transistor radios.
Eshkoli recalls how he placed constant calls into Israeli Deputy Prime
Minister Yigal Allon from his underground bunker on the Kibbutz to ask
to see Levi Eshkol, then Israel's prime minister, to demand action on
the
Syrian front.
Allon, the 1948 war hero who with liberated the Galilee, promised to
get
Eshkoli called him on the fourth day of the war with the good news that
Eshkoli could meet Eshkol and the Israeli cabinet that evening, warning
him that at least one senior Israeli cabinet minister opposed any move
towards the Golan Heights . . . .
Leaving his kibbutz in an army jeep , picking up Kibbutz leaders from
other settlements in the region, while every kibbutz member was ordered
into
the shelters because of the continuing Syrian artillery bombardment,
Eshkoli
remembers that he had the feeling that his Hula valley was burning
while
the rest of the country was dancing in the streets
Eshkoli speaks of his descending the steps into the underground
headquarters of the Israeli government in Tel Aviv as if it happened
last night.
Eshkoli gets tears in his eyes when he describes the hug that Levi
Eshkol gave
him when he showed up. Eshkoli that his full delegation of four be
allowed
to enter the cabinet meeting, and he recalls the Bible that he was
asked to
swear on that any matter of security that he would hear would be kept
in
strictest confidence.
Eshkoli was given five minutes to speak. "The longest five minutes in
my
life", Eshkoli remembers. His appeal was simple and clear, when he
reminded Eshkol that he and every Israeli leader who had ever come to
visit him
in the Galilee after Syrian rocket attacks had promised them that if
there
would ever be another war, that they would use that opportunity to
remove the Syrian threat, once and for all.
Eshkoli reports that the one Israeli minister to oppose the idea: Moshe
Dayan, the former Israeli commander in chief who had just been
appointed
to be Defence minister. Dayan had given the veto to his northern
regional
commander, "Dado" Elazar, whom he forbid to attack Syria on the Golan,
"lest this cost us 30,000 dead and risk a war with the Soviet Union",
which
had just pushed through a cease-fire in the UN Security Council. Dayan
the
war hero from the 1956 war with tremendous popular following, also made
a
great impression on the cabinet.
Eshkoli recalls that he then thought to himself: "Will I be responsible
for world war", and then said that " I could only think of my wife and
the
children of the kibbutz who at that moment were in the shelters". It
was
then that Eshkoli made a threat, which he says to this day that he
meant
with all his heart, which was that if the IDF does not remove the
Syrians from the Golan then he would recommend that all Kibbutzim pack
their
bags and leave, and that the people of Kiryat Shmoneh would follow.
Silence
followed Eshkoli's emotional appeal to the Israeli cabinet.
As Eshkoli turned and began to leave the meeting, Israeli Prime
Minister
Levi Eshkol grabbed his hand and proclaimed that "The words of Eshkoli
have entered the heart of Levi Eshkol, and they will play a crucial
role in
what we decide to do on the Golan Heights".
Eshkoli could not know when he left the government meeting, heading
back
north, whether he had succeeded in his mission. Would his words hold
greater weight than Moshe Dayan?
Heading back to Kfar Giladi, Eshkoli stopped off at the bunker of the
IDF Northern regional command. By then it was 5AM. "Dado" was slumped
over
his desk, next to a bottle of half-empty scotch .
Eshkoli reported to "Dado" what had happened at the government meeting.
And while they were talking, "Dado" received a call from the Israel
Defence
Ministry. Moshe Dayan's resonant voice was on the line with an order -
"Ascend the Golan and Succeed" were Dayan's words, and they were
repeated on the 6AM Voice of Israel radio newsreel.
"Dado" loudly said to Eshkoli that he had succeeded with Dayan where
he,
the IDF northern regional commander had not.
Indeed, Dayan's vote in the government was the lone voice in the
government to vote against the Golan attack . . . .
Dayan never forgave Eshkoli for besting him at the government meeting.
Eshkoli shows me a yellowing news interview from 1976 with Moshe Dayan
with the Israeli daily newspaper Yediot Aharonot, where Moshe Dayan
could
only recall Eshkoli and his delegation with anger and resentment,
characterizing them as "Dado"'s agents, claiming that , anyway, "the
provocation's of
the Galilee farmers and fishermen in no-man's land were the cause of
the
Syrian shellings".
Eshkoli looks at the picture of Moshe Dayan and starts to yell at him
"Right - All of my 31 communities provoked the Syrians from their
shelters. Our provocation against the Syrians is that we live and
prosper here in
the Galilee, which the Syrians see as a province of their country".
Asked about the current negotiations that might bring the Syrians back
to the Golan Heights that face down on his kibbutz, Eshkoli could only
raise a trembling hand and point to the hills and say that to "bring
back the
Syrians would be suicide for us".
Eshkoli's successor as regional mayor of the Upper Galilee region,
fellow Kfar Giladi member Aharon Valenci, is much more sanguine in his
attitude
to the possibility of territorial compromise on the Golan, saying that
he
trusts Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak and that if the Syrians are
serious about peace, then the issue of the Golan would not be as
important as it
once was, noting that "99%" of his kibbutz were supportive of the peace
process with Syria. Valanci said, however, that he will wait to see
what
the Syrians convey to their own people in their own media.
However, another prominent Galilee kibbutz leader, Muki Tzur, from Ein
Gev, on the shores of the Sea of the Galilee and meters away from the
Golan
Heights and what might again be Syria, writes an interview with
KIBBUTZ,
the magazine of the Kibbutz movement, that it was premature to take a
position on the peace process.
Tzur, the 1967 author of the best selling book known as the Seventh
Day:
Conversations with Fighters from the Six Day War, writes in his article
that Jewish and Israeli history has taught us that any peace process
with
Israel's adversaries will be long, hard and complex, and that no
decision
can be made under the pressure of an immediate desire for peace. The
price of a mistake in the peace process in the North would be guns in
place once again on the Golan, trained on the 31 settlements of the
Hula Valley in
Israel's lush Upper Galilee region.
Yankela Eshkoli stood up to Moshe Dayan.
That is why the guns in the Golan were removed, and that is why 33
Israeli settlements replaced 15 Syrian army camps on the Golan Heights.
dsha...@hotmail.com
>But hey; if she thinks she could have done a better job of commanding the
>troops in the 1948 war, or the 1956 Sinai campaign, or could have been
>pivotal in the cease-fire talks between Israel and Jordan, or could have
>commanded the troops in the 1967 war, or could have commanded the 1973
>war; let her have right at it. Next she can tell us how she could have
>been elected to Knesset by the Labor Party, or formed her own party like he
>did, or spent half a decade as a foreign minister; let her have at it.
What a load of balls.
>There is not a real Jew on this planet that views Moshe Dayan as anything
>other than Israel's greatest military leader, and second only to Golda Mier
>as Israel's greatest political leader. Any person who slams Dayan *and*
>claims to be a Jew should be ashamed of themselves. If she is not a Jew
>and does not live in Israel; then I can forgive her this transgression.
Chaim Herzog, Mulah Cohen, and Netiva Ben-Yehuda must not be real Jews,
then, because they ALL slammed Dayan. Chaim Herzog wrote that Dayan was
"self-absorbed" and that his "ego was out of control." Regarding 1973,
he explained Dayan's "decision making, or lack thereof, is that the
Arab attack did not jibe with his theories and public pronouncements.
He had said that the Arabs could not and would not attack, and dammit,
if he said so, there would be no attack."
One of his more amusing passages (Living History) describes a meeting
with former president Truman. "At the end of the meeting, which was
quite open and honest and friendly, Dayan said, 'Mr. President, give us
some advice.' Truman looked at him quizzically. 'You want advice?' he
asked. 'Well, here it is. Don't ever trust those goddam sons of bitches
in the State Department.'"
Deborah
dsha...@hotmail.com
>>>>genius at was self-promotion.
>>The Department of Defense wrote:
>>>Well, the Jewish Virtual Library says differently,
The piece errs in several places.
>>>and if I remember
>>>the History channel special correctly, he was the one >>>that ordered
>>>the planes to fly into the Egypts lines cutting >>>communication, there
>>>was some creative strategy to that.
>"El Bleacho" <ElBl...@Clorox.gov>wrote in message
>news:C0dFe.825$gt5...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
>>Don't waste your breath. It's falling on deaf ears.
The Department of Defense wrote:
>Deborah doesn't have deaf ears. I would like to hear what >she has to say on it.
>From the JVL:
"Dayan's activities in the 1948 War of Independence began when he
commanded the defense of Jewish settlements in the Jordan Valley."
He never had any command of the Jordan valley settlements; he himself
wrote that he did not.
"He later commanded the battalion that attacked the city of Lydda"
He disregarded operational orders, deserted his positions around the
international airport, against his commander's orders, because he was
bored. He led the 89th to Lydda, where, on a 40-minute ride in and out
of the town, shot a bunch of Arabs. (Israel Geffen: "We did it in sort
of a gung-ho way, riding through the streets with all we had,
surprising them.") At the Teggart fortress on the Lydda-Ramle road, the
battalion came under heavy fire from a unit of the Transjordanian Arab
Legion, which rendered it out of commission, and caused other units to
be pulled from their positions in order to rescue them. The foreign
press and others - including Dayan -- made a big deal out of it, but
no one else thought much of it. Dayan's commander chewed him out,
then kicked him out of his brigade. Ben-Gurion told Dayan personally
that it was nothing more than "a prank - not war."
"and helped halt Egyptian forces on the southern front."
He muffed the operation in Karatya in July 1947, and, as a result, was
replaced as commander of the 89th nby Teddy Eytan (Thadee Difre).
quit.
"On October 29, 1956, Dayan led Israel's Suez campaign, an invasion
of the Sinai Peninsula after Egypt, Syria and Jordan signed a pact
stating as their goal the destruction of Israel."
Prior thereto, he got cold feet again, and advised Ben-Gurion to
replace him with Yigael Yadin and Yigal Alon. In '73, he simply froze
and advised retreat on all fronts.
"Dayan left the military in 1958 and entered his second career -
politics."
Politics was always Dayan's first career (though pilfering artifacts
and peddling them on the black market ran a close second). Political
behind-the-scenes maneuverings got him the defence portfolio. Golda
said the vote to give Dayan the defence portfolio broke Eshkol's
heart.
Piffle.
Can't argue that.
rarely saw his grandchildren, and one of the sons chewed him out
viciously enough to make the old man cry.
Deborah Sharavi
>While a leader in the Jewish terror group known as Haganah, Moshe Dyan
Thermidor also claimed:
"Yitzak Rabin was the leader of the terrorist group
Hagganna who also became the PM of Israel and was
never prosectued for his terrorist activities while
leading Hagganah."
- From: Theodore Herzl (AntiZioN...@hotmail.com)
Date: 2004-04-21 16:03:52 PST
"Yitzhak Rabin was a founding member of the terrorist
group Haganah"
- From: Theodore Herzl (AntiZioN...@hotmail.com)
Date: 2003-06-12 18:20:47 PST
Haganah (Defence) was never a terror group, and Dayan was never a
commander in it. Neither was Rabin a founder of Hagana, or a leader of
it.
>was involved in ethnic cleansing according to Uri Mileshtin, an
>official historian for the Israeli Defense Force,
Prof Uri Milstein was never any "official historian" for the IDF.
>who has written and spoken about the use of bacteriological agents.
Load of balls from a known bullthrower.
>According to Mileshtin,
Typical Palliebull misspelling of Milstein.
>Moshe Dyan, a division commander at the time, gave orders in
>1948 to remove Arabs from their villages, bulldoze their homes, and
>render water wells unusable with typhus and dysentery bacteria.
Dayan wasn't a division commander in 1948.
[flush remaining Pallebull]
You can go back to your crack pipe now, Thermidor.
Deborah
Deborah Sharavi
>>>Dayan was no war criminal. He was a war hero.
>>No, he wasn't.
>>>A first rate strategist.
>>No, he wasn't.
The Department of Defense wrote:
>Really, the History channel special that I seen on him told a very different
>story.
I'm sure it did. The History Channel tells lots of good stories.
Deborah
James
<dsha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1122339319....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
one of the greatest heros ever. I am so disappointed, I don't want to think
about it. So I am just going to shut my computer off and go to bed.
--
We must never forget that on Sept.12, 2001, Israel's flags were flying at
half-staff and the Palestinians were dancing in the streets.
The Department of Defense
"James" <jbme...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:huydnSVB7-R...@comcast.com...
Thats why I waited for her comments on it, Deborah doesn't make a charge
without being able to back it up. Yes, I am disappointed as well.
The Department of Defense
"Deborah Sharavi" <dsha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1122341310....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Its usually reasonably accurate. I suppose this is not one of these cases.
El Bleacho
> I'm sure it did. The History Channel tells lots of good stories.
If not for Dayan and Mier; my right of return would be to a gas chamber in
Germany.
El Bleacho
> El Bleacho wrote:
>> But hey; if she thinks she could have done a better job of
>> commanding the troops in the 1948 war, or the 1956 Sinai campaign,
>> or could have been pivotal in the cease-fire talks between Israel
>> and Jordan, or could have commanded the troops in the 1967 war,
>> or could have commanded the 1973 war; let her have right at it.
>> Next she can tell us how she could have been elected to Knesset by
>> the Labor Party, or formed her own party like he did, or spent
>> half a decade as a foreign minister; let her have at it.
>
> What a load of balls.
I call it as I see it, Deb. The man was nothing short of being the savior
of Judaism. He was the Israeli version of George Patton.
>> There is not a real Jew on this planet that views Moshe Dayan as
>> anything other than Israel's greatest military leader, and second
>> only to Golda Mier as Israel's greatest political leader. Any person
>> who slams Dayan *and* claims to be a Jew should be ashamed of
>> themselves. If she is not a Jew and does not live in Israel; then
>> I can forgive her this transgression.
>
> Chaim Herzog, Mulah Cohen, and Netiva Ben-Yehuda must not be real
> Jews, then, because they ALL slammed Dayan.
Then they were not true Jews. A true Jew acknowledges that Dayan saved us
from extermination at the hands of the muslims on no less than four
occasions.
--
_____________________
The Department of Defense
<dsha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1122338413....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I am not disputing anything that you have said here, but what is the
sources? Also why does the JVL keep this piece up since it is so full of
inaccuracies?
El Bleacho
> "Deborah Sharavi" <dsha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1122341310....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>>> The Department of Defense wrote:
>>>>> Dayan was no war criminal. He was a war hero.
>>
>>>> No, he wasn't.
>>
>>>>> A first rate strategist.
>>
>>>> No, he wasn't.
>>
>> The Department of Defense wrote:
>>> Really, the History channel special that I seen on him told a very
>>> different
>>> story.
>>
>> I'm sure it did. The History Channel tells lots of good stories.
>
> Its usually reasonably accurate. I suppose this is not one of these
> cases.
Deborah is wrong. Moshe Dayan was a hero of epic proportions.
The Department of Defense
"El Bleacho" <ElBl...@Clorox.gov> wrote in message
> The Department of Defense wrote:
>> "Deborah Sharavi" <dsha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1122341310....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> The Department of Defense wrote:
>>>>>> Dayan was no war criminal. He was a war hero.
>>>
>>>>> No, he wasn't.
>>>
>>>>>> A first rate strategist.
>>>
>>>>> No, he wasn't.
>>>
>>> The Department of Defense wrote:
>>>> Really, the History channel special that I seen on him told a very
>>>> different
>>>> story.
>>>
>>> I'm sure it did. The History Channel tells lots of good stories.
>>
>> Its usually reasonably accurate. I suppose this is not one of these
>> cases.
>
>
> Deborah is wrong. Moshe Dayan was a hero of epic proportions.
Well, this is Usenet, she put up rebuttal to the JVL article. Can you refute
what she posted?
ריעין ברתון‎/Riain Barton‎
possible!
<dsha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1122339319....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
:
El Bleacho
>> Deborah is wrong. Moshe Dayan was a hero of epic proportions.
>
> Well, this is Usenet, she put up rebuttal to the JVL article. Can you
> refute what she posted?
I posted two articles, not one; and they stand, along with Moshe Dyan's
accomplishments, on their own merit. If you want to believe he was not
what history says he was, that is your deal. I know who the man was. He
saved Judaism from extermination. Repeatedly. He always thought of Israel
and the Jews first. I love him just as I love Moses, King David, or
Abraham. I do not have to refute anything - I know what my heart tells
me. Dayan was the greatest of men. He was more than a man. He was a
savior of a race.
The Department of Defense
"El Bleacho" <ElBl...@Clorox.gov> wrote in message
> The Department of Defense wrote:
>>> Deborah is wrong. Moshe Dayan was a hero of epic proportions.
>>
>> Well, this is Usenet, she put up rebuttal to the JVL article. Can you
>> refute what she posted?
>
> I posted two articles, not one; and they stand, along with Moshe Dyan's
> accomplishments, on their own merit.
One of which she took apart, in her usual fashion.
If you want to believe he was not
> what history says he was, that is your deal.
Believe me, I don't want to believe it, I love the military, Israel's and
the U.S. I have much respect for the IDF and what they stand for. Its not
amusing to me that someone that I believe(d) is a hero wasn't all that.
I know who the man was. He
> saved Judaism from extermination. Repeatedly. He always thought of
> Israel and the Jews first.
But thats not what Deborah was pointing out. I do believe that he loved
Israel, but sometimes facts get blurred. If you can point out anything that
she said that wasn't true, then by all means.
I love him just as I love Moses, King David,
I like David for the obvious reasons.
or
> Abraham. I do not have to refute anything - I know what my heart tells
> me. Dayan was the greatest of men. He was more than a man. He was a
> savior of a race.
Listen, I am not a Jew, but I have respect for them, I *know* that Jews are
not the culprits in this world that alot of the shitstains on this newsgroup
believes. But I do believe in being fair. I don't think Deborah would say
anything bad about any *Jew* without the words to back it up. She posted,
its up to you to refute.
B.T.W. I did ask her where she got her ammuniton for her expose, just to be
fair. Up till now, he was up on my favorite list of military strategists.
The #Revd
<the...@ss.mil> wrote:
>
><dsha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1122325927....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> The Department of Defense wrote:
>> >Dayan was no war criminal. He was a war hero.
>>
>> No, he wasn't.
>>
>> >A first rate strategist.
>>
>> No, he wasn't.
>
>Really, the History channel special that I seen on him told a very different
>story.
Produced and directed by a jew, no doubt.
>> >Now if the Palestinians wanted something to piss on,
>> >Arafats headdress would be more appropriate, since
>> >Arafat caused much of their missery.
>>
>> The Egyptian was bad news.
>>
>> Deborah
>>
>
>
The #Revd
<the...@ss.mil> wrote:
>
><AntiZ...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1122322950.4...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>> No, just think it would be a fitting tribute to the scumbag, a symbolic
>> pissing in his eye seems to be a fine tribute to the war criminal and
>> terrorist Dyan.
>
>Dayan was no war criminal. He was a war hero. A first rate strategist. Now
>if the Palestinians wanted something to piss on, Arafats headdress would be
>more appropriate, since Arafat caused much of their missery.
Jews don't have "war heros", Doodoo.
The #Revd
wrote:
>Deborah Sharavi wrote:
>> I'm sure it did. The History Channel tells lots of good stories.
>
>If not for Dayan and Mier; my right of return would be to a gas chamber in
>Germany.
You don't even live in 'Israel', asshole. The "right of return"
should be mandatory.
The #Revd
wrote:
>dsha...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> El Bleacho wrote:
>>> But hey; if she thinks she could have done a better job of
>>> commanding the troops in the 1948 war, or the 1956 Sinai campaign,
>>> or could have been pivotal in the cease-fire talks between Israel
>>> and Jordan, or could have commanded the troops in the 1967 war,
>>> or could have commanded the 1973 war; let her have right at it.
>>> Next she can tell us how she could have been elected to Knesset by
>>> the Labor Party, or formed her own party like he did, or spent
>>> half a decade as a foreign minister; let her have at it.
>>
>> What a load of balls.
>
>
>I call it as I see it, Deb. The man was nothing short of being the savior
>of Judaism. He was the Israeli version of George Patton.
LOL
The #Revd
<the...@ss.mil> wrote:
>
><dsha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1122325414.9...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> >"torresD" <torr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> >news:yMaFe.4660$6f....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>>
>>>http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=604300&contrassID=19
>>
>> The Department of Defense wrote:
>> >Wow, only 75K? If I had the money, I would pay more for
>> >it, he should be in the military hall of fame for being
>> >one hell of a badass, and military strategist.
>>
>> Dayan wasn't a military strategist. What he was is a
>> genius at was self-promotion.
>
>Well, the Jewish Virtual Library says differently, and if I remember the
>History channel special correctly, he was the one that ordered the planes to
>fly into the Egypts lines cutting communication, there was some creative
>strategy to that.
Don't argue with the jew ho', Doodoo. Just lick.
El Bleacho
> One of which she took apart, in her usual fashion.
Who are you trying to kid? She took apart nothing. One cut/paste from
some silly site is not what I would consider refutation of Moshe Dayan's
accomlishments.
> Believe me, I don't want to believe it, I love the military, Israel's
> and the U.S. I have much respect for the IDF and what they stand for.
> Its not amusing to me that someone that I believe(d) is a hero wasn't
> all that.
You are allowing yourself to be sold a bill of goods. Do you believe that
the Jews are evil because Al Jazeera says we are? Of course not. So why
believe the ramblings of one person, over the noted accomplishments that
can be found in any and every history book and encyclopedia. Don't let
Deborah tell you when to shit and which hand to wipe your ass with. Go an a
few encyclopedias and read his biography for yourself.
> But thats not what Deborah was pointing out. I do believe that he
> loved Israel, but sometimes facts get blurred. If you can point out
> anything that she said that wasn't true, then by all means.
Everything she posted was bullshit conjecture; written by someone who was
anti-Dayan. Who give a shit about that? I am sorry Deborah, but Dayan
was nothing short of Superman. The greatest Jew to live since Moses.
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/moshe_dayan.htm
Moshe Dayan became one of Israel's most famous men. Moshe Dayan found fame
as a military leader associated with victories that were seemingly
impossible within the Middle East conflicts. Dayan developed the aura of a
military 'superman'.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Dayan.html
Upon his release in 1941, Dayan joined the British army, where he served
with the forces that liberated Lebanon and Syria from Vichy France during
World War II
Dayan's activities in the 1948 War of Independence began when he commanded
the defense of Jewish settlements in the Jordan Valley. He later commanded
the battalion that attacked the city of Lydda and helped halt Egyptian
forces on the southern front.
Dayan became Chief of Staff during a time of severe Arab belligerence.
Despite the military armistice of 1949, the surrounding Arab nations
remained hostile, maintaining a maritime blockade, reinforcing an economic
boycott, promoting political and propaganda warfare and supporting terrorism
in Israel. The Israeli government was unable to contain the terrorist
violence. Dayan insisted on strong retaliation operations.
On October 29, 1956, Dayan led Israel's Suez campaign, an invasion of the
Sinai Peninsula after Egypt, Syria and Jordan signed a pact stating as their
goal the destruction of Israel.
Dayan's reputation as an effective leader grew when he was appointed
Minister of Defense under Levi Eshkol just in time for the Six-Day War in
1967 against Egypt, Jordan and Syria. When the Syrians were shelling Israeli
villages in Upper Galilee, Dayan was the one who made the decision to launch
a full-scale attack against the Syrians.
http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/people/BIOS/dayan.html
During Israel's War of Independence, Dayan held the rank of Lt. Colonel, and
led the forces that captured Lod and Ramle. From 1953 to 1957, Dayan held
the position of Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces. Dayan was the
commander of the IDF during its victorious Sinai Campaign.
Several days before the outbreak of the Six Day War, Levi Eshkol, Israel's
Prime Minister, bowed to public pressure and named Dayan Minister of
Defense.
Dayan was responsible for formulating Israel's policy on the West Bank and
Gaza after those areas were captured during the Six Day War in 1967. One of
his most enduring policies was his decision to institute what became known
as "open bridges": the free flow of people and merchandise across the Jordan
River from the West Bank to Jordan.
> Listen, I am not a Jew, but I have respect for them, I *know* that
> Jews are not the culprits in this world that alot of the shitstains
> on this newsgroup believes. But I do believe in being fair. I don't
> think Deborah would say anything bad about any *Jew* without the
> words to back it up. She posted, its up to you to refute.
Moshe Dayan's actions speak for themselves. She said he was not a good
strategist. Dayan commanded troops in 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973. Each
and every time the Jews were successful; sometimes against five or more
countries attacking Israel at once. If he was a bad strategist; there
would be no Jews now. How on earth can you refute that?!?!?!?
> B.T.W. I did ask her where she got her ammuniton for her expose,
> just to be fair. Up till now, he was up on my favorite list of
> military strategists.
No disrespect, but I could give a flying fuck where she got her ammo. My
ammo is every encyclopedia and every history book. Moshe Dayan stands on
the merit of his actions over a 40 year service to the State of Israel;
irrespective of what one person (a non-Jew, perhaps?) on Usenet says to the
contrary. I typically respect Deborah's views; but she is so off base on
this one that it's not even funny.
The Department of Defense
"El Bleacho" <ElBl...@Clorox.gov> wrote in message
> The Department of Defense wrote:
>> One of which she took apart, in her usual fashion.
>
> Who are you trying to kid? She took apart nothing. One cut/paste from
> some silly site is not what I would consider refutation of Moshe Dayan's
> accomlishments.
What site did she cut and paste from? That is part of what I was asking from
her. I will wait for her response, as I asked from her in another branch in
this thread.
>> Believe me, I don't want to believe it, I love the military, Israel's
>> and the U.S. I have much respect for the IDF and what they stand for.
>> Its not amusing to me that someone that I believe(d) is a hero wasn't
>> all that.
>
> You are allowing yourself to be sold a bill of goods.
I never do this. I ask for proof and try to confirm (or deny it) from
different sites.
Do you believe that
> the Jews are evil because Al Jazeera says we are?
Of course not, if A.J. told me grass was green I would look at what I was
walking on. Whats A.J. have to do with this convo? This is about one of my
favorite posters Deborah, debunking someones accomplishments.
Of course not. So why
> believe the ramblings of one person, over the noted accomplishments that
> can be found in any and every history book and encyclopedia.
El Bleacho . have you ever heard of Wiki? Its a favorite of the Islamists.
Things can be manipulated on the Internet.
Don't let
> Deborah tell you when to shit and which hand to wipe your ass with.
LOL. Deborah doesn't sign my paychecks, or is my wife . I look at what she
prints here objectively. So far she has given me plause to rethink what I
have formally have believed. You have not.
Go an a
> few encyclopedias and read his biography for yourself.
I have.
>> But thats not what Deborah was pointing out. I do believe that he
>> loved Israel, but sometimes facts get blurred. If you can point out
>> anything that she said that wasn't true, then by all means.
>
> Everything she posted was bullshit conjecture; written by someone who was
> anti-Dayan. Who give a shit about that? I am sorry Deborah, but Dayan
> was nothing short of Superman. The greatest Jew to live since Moses.
Superman was a myth. Moshe Dayan was a real person. If you can rebut her,
by all means do, because as I stated before, I like my heros.
> http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/moshe_dayan.htm
>
> Moshe Dayan became one of Israel's most famous men. Moshe Dayan found fame
> as a military leader associated with victories that were seemingly
> impossible within the Middle East conflicts. Dayan developed the aura of a
> military 'superman'.
>
> http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Dayan.html
This one got jacked by her.
Ben Cramer
"ריעין ברתון‎/Riain Barton" <ri...@zion.org.il> wrote in message
news:xAfFe.706$8g5...@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
> As if you have any right to speak as a Jew!
As if you do, you Irish poofter.
Ben Cramer
> Tell us when you served in the IDF, you fucking coward.
And just when did you serve in the IDF, you fucking poofter?
torresD
thanks dsharavii.
<dsha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1122338413....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >>>>Dayan wasn't a military strategist. What he was is a
> >>>>genius at was self-promotion.
>
> >>The Department of Defense wrote:
> >>>Well, the Jewish Virtual Library says differently,
>
> The piece errs in several places.
>
> >>>and if I remember
> >>>the History channel special correctly, he was the one >>>that ordered
> >>>the planes to fly into the Egypts lines cutting >>>communication, there
> >>>was some creative strategy to that.
>
> >"El Bleacho" <ElBl...@Clorox.gov>wrote in message
> >news:C0dFe.825$gt5...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
> >>Don't waste your breath. It's falling on deaf ears.
>
> The Department of Defense wrote:
> "Upon his release in 1941, Dayan joined the British army, where he
> served with the forces that liberated Lebanon and Syria from Vichy
> France during World War II."
>
> He didn't join the British army; he joined the Palmach, which the
> Special Operations Branch of the British Eighth Army employed in its
> invasion of Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq beginning June 1941. He was
> wounded in his first engagement on the Lebanese coast.
>
> "Dayan was wounded in battle in Lebanon and lost his left eye."
>
> He went to the roof of a building the Palmach had taken from Lebanese,
> Vichy, and Nazi troops; stood up to look at the enemy through
> binoculars, and was shot. Glass shards were driven through his eye, he
> was evacuated to a hospital, and that ended his fighting career for the
> rest of the war.
>
> "He cooperated with British intelligence to set up a broadcasting
> network for clandestine operations behind enemy lines in the event that
> Palestine should fall to the Germans."
>
> Dayan said he did. A lot of others worked on the project as well.
>
> "He remained active in the Haganah until 1948."
>
> Not too active, though he once took a suitcase of small arms to Enzo
> Sereni in Baghdad. The museums were all closed when he was there, Dayan
> wrote. (When he met Sadat, Sadat told him to warn them when he visited
> Egypt, so they could lock the museums in Cairo.)
>
> "Dayan's activities in the 1948 War of Independence began when he
> commanded the defense of Jewish settlements in the Jordan Valley."
>
> He never had any command of the Jordan valley settlements; he himself
> wrote that he did not.
>
> "He later commanded the battalion that attacked the city of Lydda"
>
> He disregarded operational orders, deserted his positions around the
> international airport, against his commander's orders, because he was
> bored. He led the 89th to Lydda, where, on a 40-minute ride in and out
> of the town, shot a bunch of Arabs. (Israel Geffen: "We did it in sort
> of a gung-ho way, riding through the streets with all we had,
> surprising them.") At the Teggart fortress on the Lydda-Ramle road, the
> battalion came under heavy fire from a unit of the Transjordanian Arab
> Legion, which rendered it out of commission, and caused other units to
> be pulled from their positions in order to rescue them. The foreign
> press and others - including Dayan -- made a big deal out of it, but
> no one else thought much of it. Dayan's commander chewed him out,
> then kicked him out of his brigade. Ben-Gurion told Dayan personally
> that it was nothing more than "a prank - not war."
>
> "and helped halt Egyptian forces on the southern front."
>
> "On October 29, 1956, Dayan led Israel's Suez campaign, an invasion
> of the Sinai Peninsula after Egypt, Syria and Jordan signed a pact
> stating as their goal the destruction of Israel."
>
> Prior thereto, he got cold feet again, and advised Ben-Gurion to
> replace him with Yigael Yadin and Yigal Alon. In '73, he simply froze
> and advised retreat on all fronts.
>
> "Dayan left the military in 1958 and entered his second career -
> politics."
>
> Politics was always Dayan's first career, though pilfering artifacts
> and peddling them on the black market ran a close second.
>
> "Dayan's reputation as an effective leader grew when he was appointed
> Minister of Defense under Levi Eshkol just in time for the Six-Day War
> in 1967 against Egypt, Jordan and Syria."
>
> "When the Syrians were shelling Israeli villages in Upper Galilee,
> Dayan was the one who made the decision to launch a full-scale attack
> against the Syrians."
>
Deborah Sharavi
Bios of Dayan by S Teveth and R Slater, the indespensible History of
Israel by HM Sachar, Rabin's memoirs, Ruth Dayan's memoirs,
Golda's very nice autobiography, Chaim Herzog's autobiography plus
his military histories, L. Reid-Bank's oral history of the War of
Independence, various of B-G's writings, D. Kurzman's Genesis:
1948; and I forget what else. Dayan's autobiography, of course.
>Also why does the JVL keep this piece up since it is so full of
>inaccuracies?
It's not so much that it's FULL of inaccuracies. It's simply
takes a distinctly rosy view of its subject and omits info. You notice
that the bios in the JVL tend to be fairly "nice" about their
subjects; depending on the subject, that is. Fex, it treats Dayan's
defection from Labour quite easily, but according to Herzog, Dayan's
defection shocked and crushed
Peres. But Begin needed Dayan to get a better image in the West, and he
knew Dayan could be bought. So he bought him. Thereafter, as well as
before, his participation in The Season (when the Jewish Agency and
Haganah hunted down members of the Etzel and Lechi and turned them over
to the Brits), like firing on the Altalena, was heavily elided.
Very interesting figure. A "creation of the international press" is
what one source called him. He used to have a NY PR firm working for
him. Eventually, he seems to have come to believe the drivel his
underlings invented about him. Sad. His sons hated him and made no
bones about it.
His autobiography should be read for what he doesn't say, as well as
for what he does say, and how he says it. One droll point is his use of
"We" vis-Ã -vis "I", as in "We did such and such," and "I
did such and such." When he uses "We," it generally means a lot
of people except him.
As for his military genius, where, exactly, was it during WWII or the
War of Independence or as GOC Southern Command after the war? What was
his combat experience? WWII: one skirmish, when he lost his eye,
through his own fault, and spent the rest of the war as, basically, an
errand boy. The WoI? B-G sent him with a few weapons to the Jordan
Valley, where he gave the local commanders a lot of unnecessary advice,
which wasn't taken. Kfar Vitkin, where he ordered the crew of the
Altalena (including, incidentally, Begin) machine gunned. Then B-G
ordered him to America. Then he returned and screwed up the
international airport operation. Then he through a monkey wrench into
the taking of the town by disobeying operational orders. Then he
flubbed taking Karatiya by getting his battalion stuck in a wadi,
because he didn't bother looking at a map. Then he was posted to
Jerusalem, where he held press conferences, and twice flubbed his bit
in other operations when he got cold feet.
Dayan was always very cagey about what he did and did not do in
Israel's War of Independence. (In his autobiography, it's all "'WE' did
this, and 'WE' did that."
But he's credited with winning the Six Day War, even though he had
been out of the military for ten years, and had no part in it until
three days before it began. Some genius.
Deborah Sharavi
>I posted two articles, not one; and they stand, along with Moshe Dyan's
>accomplishments, on their own merit. If you want to believe he was not
>what history says he was, that is your deal.
I've given what historians said about him; it wasn't flattering.
>I know who the man was. He saved Judaism from extermination.
Oh, horseshi'ite. Dayan was only a bit more religious than a doorknob.
>Repeatedly. He always thought of Israel and the Jews first.
He thought first, last, and always, of himself.
>I love him just as I love Moses, King David, or
>Abraham. I do not have to refute anything - I know
>what my heart tells me.
Ergo, the facts are otherwise.
>Dayan was the greatest of men. He was more than a man.
>He was a savior of a race.
So, then, how, exactly, did Dayan save Judaism and the Jewish nation?
Particulary in 1973.
Deborah
Deborah Sharavi
>The Department of Defense wrote:
>>One of which she took apart, in her usual fashion.
>Who are you trying to kid? She took apart nothing. One cut/paste from
>some silly site is not what I would consider refutation of Moshe Dayan's
>accomlishments.
Wrong. As stated previously, the facts come from bios
of Dayan by S Teveth and R Slater, the indespensible
History of Israel by HM Sachar, Rabin's memoirs, Ruth
Dayan's memoirs, Golda's autobiography, Chaim Herzog's
autobiography plus his military histories, L. Reid-Bank's
oral history of the War of Independence, various of B-G's
writings, D. Kurzman's Genesis: 1948. And Dayan's
autobiography. Plus accounts I heard years ago from
Israelis who served in the War of Independence and the
Sinai-Suez campaign.
>>Believe me, I don't want to believe it, I love the military, Israel's
>>and the U.S. I have much respect for the IDF and what they stand for.
>>Its not amusing to me that someone that I believe(d) is a hero wasn't
>>all that.
>You are allowing yourself to be sold a bill of goods. Do you believe that
>the Jews are evil because Al Jazeera says we are? Of course not. So why
>believe the ramblings of one person, over the noted accomplishments that
>can be found in any and every history book and encyclopedia. Don't let
>Deborah tell you when to shit and which hand to wipe your ass with. Go an a
>few encyclopedias and read his biography for yourself.
Encyclopedias are good for summaries, not for details.
>>But thats not what Deborah was pointing out. I do believe that he
>>loved Israel, but sometimes facts get blurred. If you can point out
>>anything that she said that wasn't true, then by all means.
>Everything she posted was bullshit conjecture; written by someone who was
>anti-Dayan. Who give a shit about that?
Ben-Gurion, Golda Meir, Chaim Herzog, Yitzhak Rabin, Shabtai Teveth,
H.M. Sachar, and Ruth Dayan are all anti-Dayan and anti-Israeli? This
is news.
>I am sorry Deborah, but Dayan was nothing short of
>Superman. The greatest Jew to live since Moses.
Superman is a fictional character. So is the standard version of Dayan.
>http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/moshe_dayan.htm
>Moshe Dayan became one of Israel's most famous men. Moshe Dayan found fame
>as a military leader associated with victories that were seemingly
>impossible within the Middle East conflicts. Dayan developed the aura of a
>military 'superman'.
Precisely. Dayan "became one of Israel's most famous men", "found
fame", was "associated with victories", and "developed the aura of a
military 'superman'".
>http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Dayan.html
>Upon his release in 1941, Dayan joined the British army, where he served
>with the forces that liberated Lebanon and Syria from Vichy France during
>World War II
He didn't join the British Army; he led Company A of the Palmach, which
was associated with the Special Operations Branch of the Eighth Army --
as both Rabin and Dayan himself noted. Bit of a difference. Dayan was
not involved in the liberation of Lebanon or Syria, as he himself
stated; he was wounded two days after crossing the frontier, and put of
of commmission for the duration of the war. He never set foot in Syria;
Yigal Alon commanded Company B that went into Syria, and later headed
the "Syrian Platoon" of the Palmach.
>Dayan's activities in the 1948 War of Independence began when he commanded
>the defense of Jewish settlements in the Jordan Valley.
He didn't, and he states in his autobiography that he didn't.
>He later commanded the battalion that attacked the city of Lydda
The account of Dayan's famous 40-minute rampage through Lydda, and the
shooting up of the 89th by the Arab Legion, has been given elsewhere.
"Allon asked Yitzak Sadeh to lend [Dayan's] battallion in their
jeeps...But it didn't come and it didn't come and suddenly we learned
it was caught in heavy crossfire at [the Teggart fort]. People were
getting killed and suddenly came the question, Who is it? Who went
there? No one was ordered to go there, it's against all reason. Because
the Palmach under Allon never went head on at a target; they would
think, where's the soft spot, how to approach it by night, to smuggle
someone through, to save lives, to make it feasible...the whole
operatinon was stopped and a big part of it was diverted o pull out
those jeeps, but until they succeeded even more died....Dayan had gone
against orders ...It was a typical piece of Dayan bravura. Afterward he
got a telling off for it." Netiva Ben Yehuda of the Palmakh in L.
Reid-Banks' Torn Country. Ben-Gurion called it "a prank, not war."
Yigal Alon was nicer, praising the escapade as "a daring raid of a
mechanized batallion". His deputy, Mulah Cohen, was less kind, saying,
"Moshe was Moshe. He did his showy bit, then left the rest of us to
clean up his mess." I forget which Israeli called Dayan a "media
darling", and "largely a creation of the international press."
>and helped halt Egyptian forces on the southern front.
In August 1948, B-G appointed Dayan commander of Jerusalem. He had
little, if anything, to do with Operations Yoav, Chorev, or Uvda (which
he describes as "WE did such and such". He got cold feet and failed
to link up near Hebron with Harel, because, as he wrote, he didn't
want to be caught in the hills by the Arabs; the failure gave the Harel
commander, Yosef Tabenkin, a severe connipition fit (a not unusual
circumstance). At another point, Dayan and the Jerusalem Etzioni
Brigade seem to have captured the wrong hill.
As noted elsewhere, Dayan was always very cagey about what he did or
did not do during Israel's War of Independence.
>Dayan became Chief of Staff during a time of severe Arab belligerence.
>Despite the military armistice of 1949, the surrounding Arab nations
>remained hostile, maintaining a maritime blockade, reinforcing an economic
>boycott, promoting political and propaganda warfare and supporting terrorism
>in Israel. The Israeli government was unable to contain the terrorist
>violence. Dayan insisted on strong retaliation operations.
Most definitely. Unit 101 - the group which Pallies, pro-Pallies, and
antisemites like to natter on about - was Dayan's baby, and he
hand-picked Sharon to command it.
>On October 29, 1956, Dayan led Israel's Suez campaign, an invasion of the
>Sinai Peninsula after Egypt, Syria and Jordan signed a pact stating as their
>goal the destruction of Israel.
Prior thereto, as Dayan himself stated, he offered his resignation to
Ben-Gurion, and advised that B-G get Yigael Yadin and Yigal Alon back
in command.
>Dayan's reputation as an effective leader grew when he was appointed
>Minister of Defense under Levi Eshkol just in time for the Six-Day War in
>1967 against Egypt, Jordan and Syria. When the Syrians were shelling Israeli
>villages in Upper Galilee, Dayan was the one who made the decision to launch
>a full-scale attack against the Syrians.
>http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/people/BIOS/dayan.html
Rabin, Elazar, and the residents of Upper Galilee have a differing
point of view.
>During Israel's War of Independence, Dayan held the rank of Lt. Colonel,
>and led the forces that captured Lod and Ramle.
That is utter horseshi'ite.
>From 1953 to 1957, Dayan held
>the position of Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces. Dayan was the
>commander of the IDF during its victorious Sinai Campaign.
Which, as noted by H.M. Sachar and military historian Chaim Herzog, was
replay of Southern Command's 1948-49 Sinai campaign.
>Several days before the outbreak of the Six Day War, Levi Eshkol, Israel's
>Prime Minister, bowed to public pressure and named Dayan Minister of
>Defense.
And, having been out of the military for ten years, Dayan is credited
as the "architect" of that victory? Oh, puh-leeze. Undeniably, the
appointment boosted the country's sagging morale incredibly. But that
was it. He ordered Rabin not to go to the Suez, which Rabin ignored; or
to take Jerusalem, which Alon persuaded Eshkol to ignore; or to advance
onto the Golan, which Rabin and Elazar got around.
>Dayan was responsible for formulating Israel's policy on the West Bank and
>Gaza after those areas were captured during the Six Day War in 1967. One of
>his most enduring policies was his decision to institute what became known
>as "open bridges": the free flow of people and merchandise across the Jordan
>River from the West Bank to Jordan.
Both Herzog and Sachar gives quite different accounts of Dayan's
"formulating Israel's policy on the West Bank and Gaza."
>Moshe Dayan's actions speak for themselves. She said he was not a good
>strategist. Dayan commanded troops in 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973.
He screwed up several times in 1948; he offered to resign his post in
1956; he commanded no troops in either 1967 or 1973; and the
near-disaster of 1973 was chiefly his fault, because the "details"
of "housekeeping" bored him, as both Herzog and Dayan himself
noted, and he refused to bother with them.
>Each
>and every time the Jews were successful; sometimes against five or more
>countries attacking Israel at once. If he was a bad strategist; there
>would be no Jews now. How on earth can you refute that?!?!?!?
See above.
>>B.T.W. I did ask her where she got her ammuniton for her expose,
>>just to be fair. Up till now, he was up on my favorite list of
>>military strategists.
>No disrespect, but I could give a flying fuck where she got her ammo. My
>ammo is every encyclopedia and every history book.
Evidently not EVERY history book.
>Moshe Dayan stands on
>the merit of his actions over a 40 year service to the State of Israel;
>irrespective of what one person (a non-Jew, perhaps?) on Usenet says to the
>contrary. I typically respect Deborah's views; but she is so off base on
>this one that it's not even funny.
If I'm off base, then so are the Israelis cited above.
Deborah
Deborah Sharavi
>news:nJjFe.1021$gt5...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
>>The Department of Defense wrote:
>>>One of which she took apart, in her usual fashion.
>>Who are you trying to kid? She took apart nothing. One cut/paste from
>>some silly site is not what I would consider refutation of Moshe Dayan's
>>accomlishments.
The Department of Defense wrote:
>What site did she cut and paste from?
None. I gave the sources and the authors, most of them Israelis who
knew him.
Deborah
El Bleacho
needed to be proven in order to substantiate your allegations against Dayan.
Deborah Sharavi wrote:
> In his autobiography, Dayan claimed his father was one of Deganyah's
> founders; he wasn't.
Prove that empirically, or retract it. What does this have to do with
your assertion that Dayan was not a great warrior?
> In 1936, Dayan was living in England, and receiving nasty notes from
> his father about living the loafer's life.
Post the letters, as well as a certification to the authenticity of the
signitures. Well, or retract that. And what does this have to do with
your assertion that Dayan was not a great warrior?
> Less than a year and a half. When he was in the pokey, he asked his
> wife to get him a copy of Gone With The Wind.
You feel a person cannot read the classics while in jail? Is this a new
law, or did you find this restriction in Talmud?
> "Dayan's activities in the 1948 War of Independence began when he
> commanded the defense of Jewish settlements in the Jordan Valley."
>
> He never had any command of the Jordan valley settlements; he
> himself wrote that he did not.
Prove that. I posted links to five encyclopedias within the past 2 days
proving he was in command during the 1948 war. Prove otherwise, or
retract. As part of your proof, get Microsoft Encarta, World Book, and
Britanica to retract; since they all clearly state that Dayan was a
commander in 1948.
> He disregarded operational orders, deserted his positions around the
> international airport, against his commander's orders, because he
> was bored.
Prove that lie. Show me IDF declassified documents showing he deserted his
position. IDF posts all declassified investigations. I resarched those
for the Muslim lies about USS Liberty. In fact, Deborah; here is an
example of how IDF declassifies documents:
http://www.thelibertyincident.com/docs/idf/israel-air-force.pdf
> He muffed the operation in Karatya in July 1947, and, as a result,
> was replaced as commander of the 89th by Teddy Eytan (Thadee Difre).
Pure conjecture. Prove it by posting his reassignment orders. When I was
in the US Military, for every transfer or promotion I recieved printed
orders in triplicate.
> In Jerusalem, he took his kids on raids to steal fruit and
> vegetables from the local farmers- and not just Arab farmers
> either. One of his biographers mentions his fondness
> for oranges. Whenever he was near a grove, he'd rob it
> of armfuls of oranges.
Prove that. Post criminal charges, or even photographs taken on behalf of
the criminal investigation. Police always respond to complaints of theft by
filling out a police report in Jerusalem. And what does this have to do
with your assertion that Dayan was not a great warrior?
> When Yadin instituted
> speed laws, he almost courtmartialed Dayan for doing
> 120 instead of holding it to whatever the much lower
> limit was. Dayan retorted, "I have only one eye, what
> do you want me to do, watch the speedometer or the
> road?" Yadin got a good laugh over that, so he didn't
> courtmartial him.
When deciding whether to courts martial an officer; the courts martial is
based on the uniform code of military justice. The UCMJ is the bible. Any
potential courts martial (summary or otherwise) is started by filling out a
UCMJ violation form. I had to fill them out for things as petty as finding
a slice of pizza in a footlocker of one of the enlisted men in my squadron.
If Dayan was speeding, there was a violation form (we called them a CHIT)
that was filled out, dismissed, and filed away. And even though that might
show a bit of antisocial behaviour, you would have to support that with
evaluations from a DSM-IV. And still, what does this have to do with your
assertion that Dayan was not a great warrior?
> Both Rabin and Dayan give slightly different accounts of Dayan's
> assumption of command of the southern front. Most of the staff
> officers quit rather than serve under Dayan.
Post the reassignment applications. Specifically, I want to see the
verbose section on reasons. These are reviewed by the CO and signed off;
whether approved or denied. Every time. No matter what.
> Prior thereto, he got cold feet again, and advised Ben-Gurion to
> replace him with Yigael Yadin and Yigal Alon. In '73, he simply
> froze and advised retreat on all fronts.
Prove your assertion. Getting "cold feet" or "simply froze" (a
non-military BULLSHIT term that whoever you cut/pasted made up) is actually
just making an incorrect troop movement determination; and there are forms
to be filled out (after the fact) with regard to troop placement and
movement; as well as justification of all officer decisions within each
assignment. Every skirmish, every squadron mobilization or movement, ever
bivouac. Everything short of when you shit is annotated after the fact.
These documents are declassified after a specific amount of time. Every
movement decision that George Patton ever made is now a matter of public
record in Washington, and available via FOIA through the US Pentagon. I
can only imagine that IDF and Knesset have roughly the same algorythm.
> Politics was always Dayan's first career, though pilfering artifacts
> and peddling them on the black market ran a close second.
Dayan had a strong interest in archeology, to be sure; but the assertion
that he peddled his artifacts on black markets must be proven. Proof might
include investigation results from the Jerusalem Police Department.
> When the war started, Dayan was having coffee and rolls
> with current mistress; by the time he got to the Pit, the
> first wave was back from Egypt, and then he took
> off to give a press conference or meet some politicians
> or something. All he did was boost everyone's morale
> (except, perhaps, Rabin's and Elazar's morale).
His efforts in the military action are well known and documented. If you
can refute all of these historical documents that have been published by all
of the major encyclopedias, the IDF, the US Pentagon, the CIA, and the
approved biographies of Dayan; then do so.
> His three "nos" to the general staff were: Don't go to the Suez,
> don't take Jerusalem, don't attack the Syrians. Rabin ignored him
> on the first, Alon talked Eshkol into overriding Dayan on the
> second; on the third, see article below.
BULLSHIT. Dayan was the premier reason for the full attack on Syria.
This is in EVERY historical document on Dayan ever written. I do not know
where you are getting your Islamic propeganda; but it is laughable at best.
> Sharon mentioned that Dayan was in the habit of giving
> generalized orders and leaving the specifics to the
> commanders.
Hearsay and conjecture. Any person with military experience also knows the
EXACT responsibilities of each level of officer and the proper chain of
command for executing orders that ultimately are the responsibility of the
Commander in Chief. Do you think that George Bush or Colin Powell decided
troop movements in Gulf War I or II?
> He never made that decision. Rabin and Elazar maneuvered him into
> it. On June 7th, Dado Elazar was still bitching to Rabin about
> Dayan's orders not to attack the Syrians.
Prove that. Post conversation transcripts from a reputable site, such as
the IDF historical documents that are published and available on the web.
> Dayan wanted to be king of the Arabs. He let the army go to rack and
> ruin, and was responsible for the Yom Kippur War.
An out and out lie. Dayan was not responsible for the Yom Kippur War. If
you have historical documents from the leaders of Syria, Egypt and Jordan to
prove otherwise, then do so.
> After Dayan deserted his party for Begin's party. And after he wrote
> his autobiography tootling his own horn.
Is that what you define as an autobiography? "Tooting your horn?"
> His last days were sad. He was nearly blind, his sons hated him, he
> rarely saw his grandchildren, and one of his sons chewed him out so
> viciously that the old man wept. Very sad.
What the fuck does that have to do with your silly assertion that Dayan was
not a great warrior? And how would you know that his "son chewed him out
until he cried". Were you there - can you therefore publish the transcript
of the conversation?
El Bleacho
> El Bleacho wrote:
>> I posted two articles, not one; and they stand, along with Moshe
>> Dyan's accomplishments, on their own merit. If you want to believe
>> he was not what history says he was, that is your deal.
>
> I've given what historians said about him; it wasn't flattering.
You have given nothing from historians. You parrotted some islamic
propeganda. Histortians wrote for Britanica, Worldbook, Encarta, and
international war museums. They are all well published, and have
historically documented the explicit actions of Dayan. You have yet to
refute even one of their claims of the actions Dayan did on behalf of
Israel.
>> I know who the man was. He saved Judaism from extermination.
>
> Oh, horseshi'ite. Dayan was only a bit more religious than a doorknob.
That is a worthless response. Childish taunts against a dead hero as
opposed to refuting the statement is laughable. He saved Israel from
extermination. How in the fuck you think "he was as religious as a
doorknob" is refutation; I have no idea.
>> Repeatedly. He always thought of Israel and the Jews first.
>
> He thought first, last, and always, of himself.
Prove your assertions and lies. He spent 40 years as a military strategist
and warrior, and as a politicain for Israel in not one, but two of the
Knesset parties. Show me someone who has done more.
>
>> I love him just as I love Moses, King David, or
>> Abraham. I do not have to refute anything - I know
>> what my heart tells me.
>
> Ergo, the facts are otherwise.
Bullshit. The facts stand. He was a strategist and warrior in the wars of
1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973.
>> Dayan was the greatest of men. He was more than a man.
>> He was a savior of a race.
>
> So, then, how, exactly, did Dayan save Judaism and the Jewish nation?
> Particulary in 1973.
Did Israel lose the 1973 war, Deborah? Show me what land was taken back by
the attacking Arab countries as part of a muslim invasion into those lands.
Same holds true for 1967, 1948, and even 1956. Show me where the
attacking arab countries pushed back Dayan's forces and took Israel. Prove
your lies, or retract them. Dayan led the forces that saved Israel from
extinction at the hands of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and others. Prove he
did not do that, Deborah.
El Bleacho
> Wrong. As stated previously, the facts come from bios
> of Dayan by S Teveth and R Slater, the indespensible
> History of Israel by HM Sachar, Rabin's memoirs, Ruth
> Dayan's memoirs, Golda's autobiography, Chaim Herzog's
> autobiography plus his military histories, L. Reid-Bank's
> oral history of the War of Independence, various of B-G's
> writings, D. Kurzman's Genesis: 1948. And Dayan's
> autobiography. Plus accounts I heard years ago from
> Israelis who served in the War of Independence and the
> Sinai-Suez campaign.
Lie. The "facts" of what Dayan did are historical record of his commands
and assignments on behalf of IDF, Knesset, and others. Your "accounts
that you heard years ago" are hearsay.
> Encyclopedias are good for summaries, not for details.
Details of each assignment, deployment, and mission are available. Post
the ones that you feel detract from Dayan being a strategist. And your
hearsay publications do not count. Show me peer reviews of his missions by
generals, and IDF documents showing the details of the missions and
deployments.
Further, if you have an opinion on any of the details; show me where you
got your knowledge of military strategy and mission engagements. I can
post my DD-214's and assignment documents; showing I spent 12 years in
the CT-ANG Tactical Control Squadron, retiring as a Major and submitted
for Lt. Colonel. I was a Warning and Attack Radar Officer. I also worked
for 10+ years at the world's 3rd largest military contractor (United
Technologies); as a QA Technician Group Leader on B-52 Radar for Overseas
Air Support (OAS) in West Germany, J-STARS during the Gulf War I, A6E and
EA6B Radar Systems, MIFAS (Marines Integrated Fire and Air Support), MX
Peacekeeper LCSC (Lauch Control Support Computer), F-11D HUD, MLRS
(Multiple Launch Rocket System), and BCS (Battery Computer System). On
each assignment I worked directly with DCAS and NAVPRO. I was most
recently Manager of Software QA for the US Treasury, Internal Revenue
Service; which oversaw an $8B technology overhaul for Congress and the GAO;
and am now assigned as solution architect to Radio Frequency system design
of the world's largest Energy and Automation materiels supplier; which
supplies all hardware and technology for every nuclear submarine and ship in
the US Naval Fleet. I am also involved in designing the Unique ID system
for the US Army Logistics Modernization Program. Academically, I hold a
Doctor of Philosophy in Computer Science, Master of Science in Computer
Science, and two Bachelor of Science Degrees in Electronics Engineering
Technology and Computer Systems Technology. These academic credentials
support the work I did as a reservist and as a Principal in a fortune 100
that is a prime contractor to the US Government. I hold a Top Secret
Clearance with DoD, a Serious Risk Clearance with US Dept. of Treasury,
and a Moderate Risk Clearance with the Internal Revenue Service.
If you know more about military procedure, documentation, and resource
management (troops and/or materiels); then post what you know. I stand
by my assertion that Moshe Dayan was a great strategist, and a great
warrior. I request why you think you know more than the historical
documents available via the more renounded encyclopedias.
> Superman is a fictional character. So is the standard version of
> Dayan.
Dayan was the greatest warrior in the history of Israel.
> Precisely. Dayan "became one of Israel's most famous men", "found
> fame", was "associated with victories", and "developed the aura of a
> military 'superman'".
>> http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Dayan.html
You think his actions were not the underlying reason to this?
<snipped other things - we have enough to talk about already>
> If I'm off base, then so are the Israelis cited above.
I have to go run errands. I am on vacation for two weeks to get things
done. One personal question, Deborah. Are you Jewish, and have you ever
lived in Israel. If you did live in Israel, did you spend time in the IDF?
AntiZ...@hotmail.com
Deborah Sharavi wrote:
> AntiZ...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >While a leader in the Jewish terror group known as Haganah, Moshe Dyan
>
> Haganah (Defence) was never a terror group, and Dayan was never a
> commander in it. Neither was Rabin a founder of Hagana, or a leader of
> it.
Haganah was most certainly a terror group and their crimes were so
severe that the Israeli Regime felt in necessary to grant them immunity
for their crimes after the Israeli Regime declared statehood. The
Hahanah was a despicable band of murdering thugs who were involved in
war crimes such as ethnic cleansing and using terroist bombings against
civilians. Dimbulb knows that but thinks that just her saying it was
not will suffice.
December 19, 1947. Haganah terrorists attacked an Arab village near
Safad, blowing up two houses, in the ruins of which were found the
bodies of 10 Arabs, including 5 children. Haganah admitted
responsibility for the attack.
January 1, 1948. Haganah terrorists attacked a village on the slopes of
Mount Carmel; 17 Arabs were killed and 33 wounded.
January 4, 1948. Haganah terrorists wearing British Army uniforms
penetrated into the center of Jaffa and blew up the Serai (the old
Turkish Government House) which was used as a headquarters of the Arab
National Committee, killing more than 40 persons and wounding 98
others.
The terrorist bombing of the SS Patria, in which murdered 267 Jewish
refugees was also the work of Haganah, who killed the Jewish refugees
in order to influence British policy.
These are all acts of terrorism and were done by the Jewsish terror
group Haganah.
> >was involved in ethnic cleansing according to Uri Mileshtin, an
> >official historian for the Israeli Defense Force,
>
> Prof Uri Milstein was never any "official historian" for the IDF.
He is a well respecteed Historian and expert on IDF history regarless
of what YOU believe DimBulb. Either way, if you cannot dispute what he
says, just fade away DimBulb.
http://www.jewishpost.com/jp0905/jpp0905b.htm
> >who has written and spoken about the use of bacteriological agents.
>
> Load of balls from a known bullthrower.
This is well known Dimbulb. I'm surprise you even attempt to hide it.
Naeim Giladi is an Iraqi Jew who was lured to Israel by Mossad agents
in the early 1950s. Working with the zealotry and dedication of a new
Zionist, he soon found out that within the Ashkenazi establishment
"there was not much opportunity for those of us who were second class
citizens", he told the editor of The Link in New York where he
immigrated after leaving Israel. "I began to find out about the
barbaric methods to rid the fledgling state of as many Palestinians as
possible. The world recoils today at the thought of bacteriological
warfare, but Israel was probably the first to actually use it in the
Middle East. Jewish forces would empty Arab villages of their
population often by threats, sometimes by gunning down a half-dozen
young men so that the Arabs could not return. The Israelis put typhus
and dysentery bacteria in the water wells to prevent the refugees from
returning". [The Link, Vol. 31 Issue 2, April-May 1998].
So you can see, we have even Jews who support the claim Dimbulb, and
who are you, a mere convert, to claim the word of a real Jew is not
true.
> >According to Mileshtin,
>
> Typical Palliebull misspelling of Milstein.
Probably my misspelling DimBulb, but spelling is not important, please
do try to follow along.
> >Moshe Dyan, a division commander at the time, gave orders in
> >1948 to remove Arabs from their villages, bulldoze their homes, and
> >render water wells unusable with typhus and dysentery bacteria.
>
> Dayan wasn't a division commander in 1948.
Prove that he was not at any time in 1948 in command of a division
DimBlub. I await your proof otherwise I expect your so typical attempt
to change the subject once again.
Deborah Sharavi
>Deborah - you are refuted below, and challenged in detail as to what is
>needed to be proven in order to substantiate your allegations against Dayan.
What "allegations"?
>Deborah Sharavi wrote:
>>In his autobiography, Dayan claimed his father was one of Deganyah's
>>founders; he wasn't.
El Bleacho wrote:
>Prove that empirically, or retract it. What does this have to do with
>your assertion that Dayan was not a great warrior?
Refutation of Dayan's (very cagey) account that his parents were
founders of Deganyah Alef. They were not. Deganyah was founded in 1908
by ten men and women led by Yosef Baratz, on lands which had been
abandoned by a previous group of agriculturalists the previous year.
Eliyahu and Shmuel Dayan, who immigrated from the Ukraine, in 1908,
were itinerant field hands in the coastal moshavot, and later worked on
farms in the Lower Galilee villages of Yavniel and Kfar Tavor. Shmuel
joined Deganyah several years later. I forget the year Deborah Dayan
immigrated, but it was well after Deganyah's establishment. Dayan
relates that Shmuel voted against her joining, because he didn't want
any rivals. She was from a well to do Russian Jewish family, and had a
passion for Russian literature. He was from a much less well off
family, whose father was a peddler.
>>In 1936, Dayan was living in England, and receiving nasty notes from
>>his father about living the loafer's life.
>Post the letters, as well as a certification to the authenticity of the
>signitures. Well, or retract that.
Dayan himself is the source for Shmuel's letters to him in England;
read his autobiography. Read, also, his first wife's autobiography,
as well as Robert Slater's and Shabtai Teveth's biographies; those
are the other sources for Shmuel's letters. Slater and Teveth are the
sources for Moshe's generally poor relations with his father. The
source for Slater's account of Shmuel shutting Moshe in a chicken
coop overnight to punish him, when the latter was only five, was Dayan
himself. The old man was a bit of a bastard.
>And what does this have to do with
>your assertion that Dayan was not a great warrior?
JVL bio.
>>Less than a year and a half. When he was in the pokey, he asked his
>>wife to get him a copy of Gone With The Wind.
>You feel a person cannot read the classics while in jail? Is this a new
>law, or did you find this restriction in Talmud?
No, I think it's funny: Moshe Dayan, reading Gone With The Wind.
Prior to his military career and fame, however, his talents were for
poetry and art-that's according to Dayan, as well as his two
biographers.
Dayan's account of his year and a half in the pokey is interesting,
amusing, and sad; his daughter was born when he was in jail, but he
could only look at her when Ruth held her up beyond the barbed wire in
the yard during visiting hours - very infrequent visiting hours. Like
maybe once a month. The 43 got on well with Arab political prisoners,
and both groups tended to scorn common criminals.
>>"Dayan's activities in the 1948 War of Independence began when he
>>commanded the defense of Jewish settlements in the Jordan Valley."
>>He never had any command of the Jordan valley settlements; he
>>himself wrote that he did not.
>Prove that. I posted links to five encyclopedias within the past 2 days
>proving he was in command during the 1948 war. Prove otherwise, or
>retract. As part of your proof, get Microsoft Encarta, World Book, and
>Britanica to retract; since they all clearly state that Dayan was a
>commander in 1948.
Read Dayan's autobiography; he specifically states B-G and Yadin sent
him to the Jordan Valley moshavot, but with no mandate over the local
commander(s).
>>He disregarded operational orders, deserted his positions around the
>>international airport, against his commander's orders, because he
>>was bored.
>Prove that lie. Show me IDF declassified documents showing he deserted his
>position. IDF posts all declassified investigations.
I gave them previously. H.M. Sachar, History of Israel; R. Slater,
Moshe Dayan; S. Teveth, Moshe Dayan; L. Reid-Banks, Torn Country
(interviews with participants); D. Kurzman, Genesis: 1948
(ditto).....and Dayan himself. He had just returned from escorting Col.
David Marcus's body back to America, then rejoined his battalion,
which was then holding positions around the international airport. He
was outraged that they were being used as guards, rather than combat
troops; when he intercepted a call from Alon's deputy, Mulah Cohen,
asking for relief from the Eighth, he pulled his men from their
positions and headed for Lydda. Their arrival in Ben Shemen surprised
the hell out of Cohen. After the 40-minute run through Lydda -- where
they were shot up by the Transjordanian Arab Legion in the Teggart
fortress on the Lydda-Ramle road, and troops had to be pulled out of
other positions to rescue them -the 89th was forced to return to Tel
Hashomer for repairs, but not before Dayan's immediate superior,
Yitzhak Sadeh, chewed him out for what Ben-Gurion described as "a
prank." Tthen Dayan went on to Tel Aviv, where he met with B-G and
Yadin.
>I resarched those
>for the Muslim lies about USS Liberty. In fact, Deborah; here is an
>example of how IDF declassifies documents:
>http://www.thelibertyincident.com/docs/idf/israel-air-force.pdf
The Liberty incident occurred in 1967. Reports from 1948 are few, as
there was as yet no standard method of keeping reports, or making them.
>>He muffed the operation in Karatya in July 1947, and, as a result,
>>was replaced as commander of the 89th by Teddy Eytan (Thadee Difre).
>Pure conjecture. Prove it by posting his reassignment orders.
Commander of the 89th during Lydda: Dayan. Commander of the 89th during
Yoav, Chorev, and Uvda: Teddy Eytan.
>When I was
>in the US Military, for every transfer or promotion I recieved printed
>orders in triplicate.
The Israeli army in 1948 was not the US military. In 1948, the Palmach
had not yet dissolved its separate command structure, and did not, in
any case, like taking orders from Haganah, and the Etzel and the
Lech'i likewise maintained separate commands. Recall the Altalena
incident.
>>In Jerusalem, he took his kids on raids to steal fruit and
>>vegetables from the local farmers- and not just Arab farmers
>>either. One of his biographers mentions his fondness
>>for oranges. Whenever he was near a grove, he'd rob it
>>of armfuls of oranges.
>Prove that.
Read Dayan's autobiography. It's his account.
>Post criminal charges, or even photographs taken on behalf of
>the criminal investigation. Police always respond to complaints of theft by
>filling out a police report in Jerusalem. And what does this have to do
>with your assertion that Dayan was not a great warrior?
Already answered.
>>When Yadin instituted
>>speed laws, he almost courtmartialed Dayan for doing
>>120 instead of holding it to whatever the much lower
>>limit was. Dayan retorted, "I have only one eye, what
>>do you want me to do, watch the speedometer or the
>>road?" Yadin got a good laugh over that, so he didn't
>>courtmartial him.
>When deciding whether to courts martial an officer; the courts martial is
>based on the uniform code of military justice. The UCMJ is the bible.
>Any
>potential courts martial (summary or otherwise) is started by filling out a
>UCMJ violation form. I had to fill them out for things as petty as finding
>a slice of pizza in a footlocker of one of the enlisted men in my squadron.
Last I knew, the UCMJ was not operative in Israel.
"One day Moshe Dayan, who lost an eye while fighting in the British
army during World War II, was stopped for speeding by a military
policeman. 'I have only one eye,' he protested. 'What do you want me to
watch - the speedometer or the road!?'" Dayan, Moshe (1915-1981)
Israeli minister of defense (1967, 1969-74) and foreign minister
(1977-79) [Sources: C. Fadiman, ed., Bartlett's Anecdotes]
>If Dayan was speeding, there was a violation form (we called them a CHIT)
>that was filled out, dismissed, and filed away. And even though that might
>show a bit of antisocial behaviour, you would have to support that with
>evaluations from a DSM-IV. And still, what does this have to do with your
>assertion that Dayan was not a great warrior?
See above.
>>Both Rabin and Dayan give slightly different accounts of Dayan's
>>assumption of command of the southern front. Most of the staff
>>officers quit rather than serve under Dayan.
>Post the reassignment applications. Specifically, I want to see the
>verbose section on reasons. These are reviewed by the CO and signed off;
>whether approved or denied. Every time. No matter what.
See Dayan's autobiography and Rabin's memoirs. Both give
substantially the same account. Dayan showed up, the ex-Palmach
officers were cold and silent because B-G had just kicked Yigal Alon
out of the army. Rabin opined Dayan must have felt ill at east amongst
them, then repeated Dayan's words to him: "Thank you. I don't
need you any more." Dayan stated he asked none of the officers to
leave. "But most did."
>>Prior thereto, he got cold feet again, and advised Ben-Gurion to
>>replace him with Yigael Yadin and Yigal Alon. In '73, he simply
>>froze and advised retreat on all fronts.
>Prove your assertion. Getting "cold feet" or "simply froze" (a
>non-military BULLSHIT term that whoever you cut/pasted made up) is actually
>just making an incorrect troop movement determination; and there are forms
>to be filled out (after the fact) with regard to troop placement and
>movement; as well as justification of all officer decisions within each
>assignment. Every skirmish, every squadron mobilization or movement, ever
>bivouac. Everything short of when you shit is annotated after the fact.
>These documents are declassified after a specific amount of time. Every
>movement decision that George Patton ever made is now a matter of public
>record in Washington, and available via FOIA through the US Pentagon. I
>can only imagine that IDF and Knesset have roughly the same algorythm.
Chaim Herzog wrote in his Living History that Dayan got cold feet, he
froze, and that he was prone to bouts of extreme indecisiveness; a
"Hamletian figure", is how Herzog described him. Read it, along
with Dayan's autobiography and Herzog's military histories. Dayan
clearly states he offered his resignation as ramatkal to B-G and
recommended that B-G call in Yigael Yadin and Yigal Alon, while Dayan
would replace the current GOC Southern Command. B-G talked him out of
it. To give credit where credit is due, the army had fallen apart after
1949; when Dayan became ramatkal in 1953, he rebuilt it and turned it
around. Dayan's account that he himself offered to step down as
ramatkal in favor of being appointed GOC Southern Command is fact.
>>Politics was always Dayan's first career, though pilfering artifacts
>>and peddling them on the black market ran a close second.
>Dayan had a strong interest in archeology, to be sure; but the assertion
>that he peddled his artifacts on black markets must be proven. Proof might
>include investigation results from the Jerusalem Police Department.
Half Israel knows his not so legal acquisition of artifacts. It used
cheese me off. Now, however, I incline toward the view that he
preserved ancient Jewish artifacts which might otherwise have been
destroyed by Muslim Arabs, like they are doing to Jewish artifacts on
Temple Mt. In any case, Dayan left them to the nation, so he's okay.
>>When the war started, Dayan was having coffee and rolls
>>with current mistress; by the time he got to the Pit, the
>>first wave was back from Egypt, and then he took
>>off to give a press conference or meet some politicians
>>or something. All he did was boost everyone's morale
>>(except, perhaps, Rabin's and Elazar's morale).
>His efforts in the military action are well known and documented. If you
>can refute all of these historical documents that have been published by all
>of the major encyclopedias, the IDF, the US Pentagon, the CIA, and the
>approved biographies of Dayan; then do so.
Produce some of that documentation which states the planning for the
Six Day War was NOT done by the Ministerial Defence Committee and the
General Staff, or that Rabin was NOT the chief architect of the
victory.
>>His three "nos" to the general staff were: Don't go to the Suez,
>>don't take Jerusalem, don't attack the Syrians. Rabin ignored him
>>on the first, Alon talked Eshkol into overriding Dayan on the
>>second; on the third, see article below.
>BULLSHIT. Dayan was the premier reason for the full attack on Syria.
>This is in EVERY historical document on Dayan ever written. I do not know
>where you are getting your Islamic propeganda; but it is laughable at best.
I've never heard Yitzhak Rabin, Chaim Herzog, H.M. Sachar, Yigal
Alon, and Martin Gilbert desribed as "Islamic propagandists".
Dayan's big bugaboo in the war was the Soviet Union, and their
potential reaction in favor of Syria, their "shining star on their
Third World Xmas tree."
>>Sharon mentioned that Dayan was in the habit of giving
>>generalized orders and leaving the specifics to the
>>commanders.
>Hearsay and conjecture.
No, from Sharon's own writings. Dayan was, in fact, in the habit of
giving generalized orders and leaving the details to others. He himself
wrote that day-to-day details bored him.
>ny person with military experience also knows the
>EXACT responsibilities of each level of officer and the proper chain of
>command for executing orders that ultimately are the responsibility of the
>Commander in Chief. Do you think that George Bush or Colin Powell decided
>troop movements in Gulf War I or II?
Do you think a minister of defence - a civilian position - decided
troop movements in 1967?
>>He never made that decision. Rabin and Elazar maneuvered him into
>>it. On June 7th, Dado Elazar was still bitching to Rabin about
>>Dayan's orders not to attack the Syrians.
>Prove that. Post conversation transcripts from a reputable site, such as
>the IDF historical documents that are published and available on the web.
See Rabin's memoirs, Slater's bio of Dayan, Sachar's History of
Israel, and Gilbert's Israel: A History.
>>Dayan wanted to be king of the Arabs. He let the army go to rack and
>>ruin, and was responsible for the Yom Kippur War.
>An out and out lie. Dayan was not responsible for the Yom Kippur War. If
>you have historical documents from the leaders of Syria, Egypt and Jordan to
>prove otherwise, then do so.
He was responsible for the army's unpreparedness in 1973. See Chaim
Herzog, H.M. Sachar, R. Slater, Golda's memoirs, and Dayan's own
autobiography.
>>After Dayan deserted his party for Begin's party. And after he wrote
>>his autobiography tootling his own horn.
>Is that what you define as an autobiography? "Tooting your horn?"
Read Dayan's autobiography. It's most definitely tooting his own
horn--something he was very good at.
>>His last days were sad. He was nearly blind, his sons hated him, he
>>rarely saw his grandchildren, and one of his sons chewed him out so
>>viciously that the old man wept. Very sad.
>What the fuck does that have to do with your silly assertion that Dayan was
>not a great warrior? And how would you know that his "son chewed him out
>until he cried". Were you there - can you therefore publish the transcript
>of the conversation?
See Slater's and Teveth's biographies. Slater's sources were Assi
Dayan, Yael and Rachel Dayan, who were present when Assi slammed into
his father. Udi Dayan wrote a "j'accuse" type of letter to the
paper when he found that their father had cut him, his brother and
sister of his will, and left everything to his second wife. The letter
was milder than Assi's verbal diatribe, but the general tenor was the
same. The second wife gave them each a large chunk of money to stop
pestering her.
Deborah
El Bleacho
> El Bleacho wrote:
>> Prove that empirically, or retract it. What does this have to do
>> with
>> your assertion that Dayan was not a great warrior?
>
> Refutation of Dayan's (very cagey) account that his parents were
> founders of Deganyah Alef. They were not.
Prove it. But please remind yourself that it does not matter if they did
or did not found DA. Your assertion is that Dayan is not a great military
strategist. You have done nothing so far other than to try to assault his
character; with statements such as above or how you went on and on about
how once his son made him cry. Who cares if his son made him cry? I could
care less what he does when he was not commanding troops for Israel. You
keep avoiding the important fact; which is that you came into this thread
to assert that Moshe Dayan was not a strategist. Now you should take the
time to prove it.
>> Post the letters, as well as a certification to the authenticity of
>> the signitures. Well, or retract that.
>
> Dayan himself is the source for Shmuel's letters to him in England;
> read his autobiography.
I have. Again, prove your assertions. Saying you read something somewhere
is not proof. You mentioned letters; now prove them.
>> You feel a person cannot read the classics while in jail? Is this a
>> new law, or did you find this restriction in Talmud?
>
> No, I think it's funny: Moshe Dayan, reading Gone With The Wind.
> Prior to his military career and fame, however, his talents were for
> poetry and art-that's according to Dayan, as well as his two
> biographers.
But who gives a shit? Jesus liked to work with wood. Is that what
discounts him from being Messiah? You think Moses, King David, Solomon,
or other famous Jews had no personal interests? You are saying that Moshe
Dayan reading Gone with the Wind while incarcerated is a reason why Dayan is
not a military strategist. That is an unreasonable assertion.
> Dayan's account of his year and a half in the pokey is interesting,
> amusing, and sad; his daughter was born when he was in jail, but he
> could only look at her when Ruth held her up beyond the barbed wire in
> the yard during visiting hours - very infrequent visiting hours. Like
> maybe once a month. The 43 got on well with Arab political prisoners,
> and both groups tended to scorn common criminals.
Again, Deborah - what does this have to do with your assertion that Dayan
was not a strategist?
>> Prove that. I posted links to five encyclopedias within the past 2
>> days proving he was in command during the 1948 war. Prove
>> otherwise, or retract. As part of your proof, get Microsoft
>> Encarta, World Book, and Britanica to retract; since they all
>> clearly state that Dayan was a commander in 1948.
>
> Read Dayan's autobiography; he specifically states B-G and Yadin sent
> him to the Jordan Valley moshavot, but with no mandate over the local
> commander(s).
Again: Every history book states clearly that Dayan's activities in the
1948 War of Independence began when he commanded the defense of Jewish
settlements in the Jordan Valley. He later commanded the battalion that
attacked the city of Lydda and helped halt Egyptian forces on the southern
front. In August 1948, he was appointed commander on the Jerusalem front.
Prove otherwise, or retract.
>>> He disregarded operational orders, deserted his positions around the
>>> international airport, against his commander's orders, because he
>>> was bored.
>
>> Prove that lie. Show me IDF declassified documents showing he
>> deserted his position. IDF posts all declassified investigations.
>
> I gave them previously.
No, you gave nothing. You cut/paste some arab propaganda, nothing more.
I told you how to prove that he deserted positions. Show me IDF Courts
Martial Summary Decisions. IDF does a Courts Martial when an officer is
derilict in his or her duty.
> Reports from 1948 are few, as
> there was as yet no standard method of keeping reports, or making
> them.
Utter and absolute BULLSHIT. Some of the forms I filled out in the Air
National Guard, and some of the forms I still fill out today for the
Military are from the 40's and 50's. In fact, I just had to root
through 300 pages of initiative documents and mitigation documents that were
approved by Dwight Eisenhower.
>>> He muffed the operation in Karatya in July 1947, and, as a result,
>>> was replaced as commander of the 89th by Teddy Eytan (Thadee Difre).
>
>> Pure conjecture. Prove it by posting his reassignment orders.
>
> Commander of the 89th during Lydda: Dayan. Commander of the 89th
> during Yoav, Chorev, and Uvda: Teddy Eytan.
Again, Deborah; you are caught in a lie. Show the reassignment orders.
All you are doing is parroting the one propeganda document you have. You
said he muffed the operation, and that the result was his being replaced.
Now prove it. His reassignment orders will show the reason for
reassignment. Prove that he made a derelict decision while in charge of
operations in Karatya in 1947.
>> When I was
>> in the US Military, for every transfer or promotion I recieved
>> printed orders in triplicate.
>
> The Israeli army in 1948 was not the US military. In 1948, the Palmach
> had not yet dissolved its separate command structure, and did not, in
> any case, like taking orders from Haganah, and the Etzel and the
> Lech'i likewise maintained separate commands. Recall the Altalena
> incident.
Stop spewing garbage, and address the specific issue. Prove your assertion
that Dayan was transferred due to incompetance, cowardice, or error in
judgement. Post the Transfer Order.
>> Post criminal charges, or even photographs taken on behalf of
>> the criminal investigation. Police always respond to complaints of
>> theft by filling out a police report in Jerusalem. And what does
>> this have to do with your assertion that Dayan was not a great
>> warrior?
>
> Already answered.
Lie! Prove that he was a criminal and that he was involved in these
thefts. Show me a copy of a criminal investigation.
>> When deciding whether to courts martial an officer; the courts
>> martial is based on the uniform code of military justice. The UCMJ
>> is the bible.
>> Any
>> potential courts martial (summary or otherwise) is started by
>> filling out a UCMJ violation form. I had to fill them out for
>> things as petty as finding a slice of pizza in a footlocker of one
>> of the enlisted men in my squadron.
>
> Last I knew, the UCMJ was not operative in Israel.
You never knew. When was the last time you were an officer in the IDF, or
did any joint exercises with IDF? I worked with IDF forces when we
deployed the Patriot in Tel Aviv during Gulf War I; as I was on the QA team
that developed the launch control modules for the Patriot. IDF absolutely
has a Uniform Code of Military Justice.
> "One day Moshe Dayan, who lost an eye while fighting in the British
> army during World War II, was stopped for speeding by a military
> policeman. 'I have only one eye,' he protested. 'What do you want me
> to watch - the speedometer or the road!?'" Dayan, Moshe (1915-1981)
> Israeli minister of defense (1967, 1969-74) and foreign minister
> (1977-79) [Sources: C. Fadiman, ed., Bartlett's Anecdotes]
That is not proof. That is unsubstantiated rumor. Show me the speeding
CHIT.
>> Post the reassignment applications. Specifically, I want to see the
>> verbose section on reasons. These are reviewed by the CO and signed
>> off; whether approved or denied. Every time. No matter what.
>
> See Dayan's autobiography and Rabin's memoirs. Both give
> substantially the same account. Dayan showed up, the ex-Palmach
> officers were cold and silent because B-G had just kicked Yigal Alon
> out of the army.
Prove it. Post Reassignment Order and Reassignment Requests.
>> Prove your assertion. Getting "cold feet" or "simply froze" (a
>> non-military BULLSHIT term that whoever you cut/pasted made up) is
>> actually just making an incorrect troop movement determination; and
>> there are forms to be filled out (after the fact) with regard to
>> troop placement and movement; as well as justification of all
>> officer decisions within each assignment. Every skirmish, every
>> squadron mobilization or movement, ever bivouac. Everything short
>> of when you shit is annotated after the fact. These documents are
>> declassified after a specific amount of time. Every movement
>> decision that George Patton ever made is now a matter of public
>> record in Washington, and available via FOIA through the US
>> Pentagon. I can only imagine that IDF and Knesset have roughly the
>> same algorythm.
>
> Chaim Herzog wrote in his Living History that Dayan got cold feet, he
> froze, and that he was prone to bouts of extreme indecisiveness; a
> "Hamletian figure", is how Herzog described him.
BULLSHIT. Who cares what someone wrote. Show me the Results of Orders
documents that were completed by Dayan and signed by his Commanding Officer.
If Dayan made incorrect troop movement determinations, incorrect
mobilizations, and incompleted assignments; then show me the Results of
Orders documents.
>> Dayan had a strong interest in archeology, to be sure; but the
>> assertion that he peddled his artifacts on black markets must be
>> proven. Proof might include investigation results from the
>> Jerusalem Police Department.
>
> Half Israel knows his not so legal acquisition of artifacts. It used
> cheese me off. Now, however, I incline toward the view that he
> preserved ancient Jewish artifacts which might otherwise have been
> destroyed by Muslim Arabs, like they are doing to Jewish artifacts on
> Temple Mt. In any case, Dayan left them to the nation, so he's okay.
"Cheesed you off"? What are you talking about? How long have you lived in
Israel? How long did you serve in the IDF? How did archeological digs in
Israel affect your daily life living there? And most importantly, why are
you sidestepping showing proof of your bogus assertions? Show me
investigation reports from the Jerusalem Police Department.
> Produce some of that documentation which states the planning for the
> Six Day War was NOT done by the Ministerial Defence Committee and the
> General Staff, or that Rabin was NOT the chief architect of the
> victory.
You said that Dayan was not a strategist. That is a LIE. Turning this
around and asking someone else to prove to the contrary is false thought
processes. Especially when I asked you for empirical proof to substantiate
this LIE. All historical documents explain what he did and when; and you
are contending that he is not a military strategist. Now prove this. Do
not answer questions with non-related hearsay. Prove some of your
assertions.
>> BULLSHIT. Dayan was the premier reason for the full attack on Syria.
>> This is in EVERY historical document on Dayan ever written. I do not
>> know where you are getting your Islamic propeganda; but it is
>> laughable at best.
>
> I've never heard Yitzhak Rabin, Chaim Herzog, H.M. Sachar, Yigal
> Alon, and Martin Gilbert desribed as "Islamic propagandists".
> Dayan's big bugaboo in the war was the Soviet Union, and their
> potential reaction in favor of Syria, their "shining star on their
> Third World Xmas tree."
You said Dayan had nothing to do with the fight against Syria. You lied.
You have yet to address ONE SINGLE LIE with any empirical proof of anything.
> No, from Sharon's own writings. Dayan was, in fact, in the habit of
> giving generalized orders and leaving the details to others. He
> himself wrote that day-to-day details bored him.
You have absolutely no idea how military orders are served and carried out,
do you? Post your military record, Deborah. I posted mine, now you post
yours.
> Do you think a minister of defence - a civilian position - decided
> troop movements in 1967?
Are you insane? Is the Commander In Chief also a civilian position? Post
your military record. Then we can talk about your understanding of Chain Of
Command; which should have been part of your Basic Training.
>> Prove that. Post conversation transcripts from a reputable site,
>> such as the IDF historical documents that are published and
>> available on the web.
>
> See Rabin's memoirs, Slater's bio of Dayan, Sachar's History of
> Israel, and Gilbert's Israel: A History.
No. You post conversation transcripts. If you are going to say "he said,
she said"; then back it up with PROOF.
> He was responsible for the army's unpreparedness in 1973. See Chaim
> Herzog, H.M. Sachar, R. Slater, Golda's memoirs, and Dayan's own
> autobiography.
Two sentences ago you clearly inferred that civilian elected posts cannot
be responsible for military movements and military decisions. You state,
and I quote "Do you think a minister of defence - a civilian position -
decided troop movements in 1967?"
>> Is that what you define as an autobiography? "Tooting your horn?"
>
> Read Dayan's autobiography. It's most definitely tooting his own
> horn--something he was very good at.
Again, conjecture and hearsay.
>> What the fuck does that have to do with your silly assertion that
>> Dayan was not a great warrior? And how would you know that his
>> "son chewed him out until he cried". Were you there - can you
>> therefore publish the transcript of the conversation?
>
> See Slater's and Teveth's biographies. Slater's sources were Assi
> Dayan, Yael and Rachel Dayan, who were present when Assi slammed into
> his father. Udi Dayan wrote a "j'accuse" type of letter to the
> paper when he found that their father had cut him, his brother and
> sister of his will, and left everything to his second wife. The letter
> was milder than Assi's verbal diatribe, but the general tenor was the
> same. The second wife gave them each a large chunk of money to stop
> pestering her.
Again; what does your gossip have to do with your assertion that "Dayan was
not a strategist" ?!?!?!?!??!
Deborah Sharavi
El Bleacho wrote:
>You have given nothing from historians. You parrotted some islamic
>propeganda.
Bullshit.
>Histortians wrote for Britanica, Worldbook, Encarta, and
>international war museums.
Nonsense.
>They are all well published, and have
>historically documented the explicit actions of Dayan.
You've produced none of it.
>You have yet to
>refute even one of their claims of the actions Dayan did on behalf of
>Israel.
I've directed your attention to the historians and biographers who have
written what I have stated, along with Dayan's own writings. Read them,
then come back and tell me what they say. They are far more detailed
than any of your online encyclopedias. Or, for that matter, your
offline encyclopedias.
>>>I know who the man was. He saved Judaism from extermination.
>>Oh, horseshi'ite. Dayan was only a bit more religious than a doorknob.
>That is a worthless response. Childish taunts against a dead hero as
>opposed to refuting the statement is laughable. He saved Israel from
>extermination. How in the fuck you think "he was as religious as a
>doorknob" is refutation; I have no idea.
Dayan was not religious; that's fact.
>>>Repeatedly. He always thought of Israel and the Jews first.
>>He thought first, last, and always, of himself.
>Prove your assertions and lies.
I've directed you to the sources: Israelis who knew him.
>He spent 40 years as a military strategist
>and warrior, and as a politicain for Israel in not one, but two of the
>Knesset parties. Show me someone who has done more.
Ben-Gurion, Golda, Rabin, to begin with.
>>>I love him just as I love Moses, King David, or
>>>Abraham. I do not have to refute anything - I know
>>>what my heart tells me.
>>Ergo, the facts are otherwise.
>Bullshit. The facts stand. He was a strategist and warrior in the wars of
>1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973.
He planned nothing wrt to 1948. His victory in 1956 was a replay of
Southern Command's 1948-49 Sinai thrust. As to 1967, do explain how one
can be out of the military for ten years, then return three days before
the start of a major war and plan the campaign. What, exactly, do you
think the Ministerial Defence Committee and the General Staff were
doing for years prior to the war? Sitting around playing sheshbesh and
drinking arrak?
>>>Dayan was the greatest of men. He was more than a man.
>>He was a savior of a race.
>>So, then, how, exactly, did Dayan save Judaism and the Jewish nation?
>>Particulary in 1973.
>Did Israel lose the 1973 war, Deborah? Show me what land was taken back by
>the attacking Arab countries as part of a muslim invasion into those lands.
>Same holds true for 1967, 1948, and even 1956. Show me where the
>attacking arab countries pushed back Dayan's forces and took Israel. Prove
>your lies, or retract them.
Already proved them.
Now you provide some details as to EXACTLY what Dayan did in 1948 that
saved Israel.
>Dayan led the forces that saved Israel from
>extinction at the hands of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and others.
>Prove he did not do that, Deborah.
Already did, and I directed your attention to the authors and the books
from which I took the facts.
Deborah
El Bleacho
> <snip of non proof>
> Already did, and I directed your attention to the authors and the
> books from which I took the facts.
Deborah - you clearly stated that Moshe Dayan was not a strategist. To
further compound this situation, you have gone on and on about his
relationships with his spouse, children, and grandchildren. You have made
some serious allegations about him being incompetant. You have produced no
IDF Command Reports, no Courts Martial Summaries, proven no violations of
any kind, to include violation of Military Codes or State Law in Jerusalem.
You have posted conjecture and references to unauthorized biographies and
other works of fiction. You need to post more than links and quotes from
these biographies. Again - IDF Command Reports and Field Reports, Courts
Martial Summaries, and Criminal Investigation Reports will do just fine.
If and when you do these things, then you can stand here and slam Moshe
Dayan to your heart's content. Until then, you are being a gossip and
nothing more. You have suggested that you read and interpreted the views of
these other alleged historians and journalistic biographers; yet posted no
information showing that you had a military career or military academic
training. Even ROTC while in college. Anything? In fact, I did ROTC
during my undergraduate degrees prior to my time in the Air National Guard.
Did you even do ROTC in college? I am just wondering where your ability
to discern military truth from gossip originates. There will always be
people who say Dayan was not a warrior, or George Patton was not a warrior,
or "so and so" was not a true warrior. What defines your skills in this
arena? And why do you take this hearsay and gossip to be gospel; over his
well known, true military accomplishments.
Deborah Sharavi
>>of Dayan by S Teveth and R Slater, the indespensible
>>History of Israel by HM Sachar, Rabin's memoirs, Ruth
>>Dayan's memoirs, Golda's autobiography, Chaim Herzog's
>>autobiography plus his military histories, L. Reid-Bank's
>>oral history of the War of Independence, various of B-G's
>>writings, D. Kurzman's Genesis: 1948. And Dayan's
>>autobiography. Plus accounts I heard years ago from
>>Israelis who served in the War of Independence and the
>>Sinai-Suez campaign.
>Lie.
Dayan's autobiography is a lie? Teveth, Slater, Herzog, and Sachar
are liars?
>The "facts" of what Dayan did are historical record
>of his commands and assignments on behalf of IDF,
>Knesset, and others.
If so, then produce a few examples from his 1948 combat record.
>Your "accounts that you heard years ago" are hearsay.
They were accounts of ex-Palmakhniks who served in the Negev campaigns
and Sinai, and are not hearsay. The other accounts are those of highly
reputable historians, and also not hearsay.
>>Encyclopedias are good for summaries, not for details.
>Details of each assignment, deployment, and mission
>are available. Post the ones that you feel detract
>from Dayan being a strategist. And your hearsay
>publications do not count.
Histories by reputable historians are not "hearsay publications".
As for Dayan's "strategy" in the War of Independence, I have referred
you to the sources.
>Show me peer reviews of his missions by generals,
>and IDF documents showing the details of the
>missions and deployments.
Post your own "peer reviews of his missions by generals, and IDF
documents" etc. -- such as those extant from 1948.
Incidentally, Chaim Herzog WAS an Israeli general, as well as a colonel
in Britain's elite Guard Armoured Division during WWII. Read his
military histories on the subject. Those, also, are not "hearsay
publications".
All very commendable. What any of it has to do with
the history of Israel in 1948?
>If you know more about military procedure, documentation,
>and resource management (troops and/or materiels);
>then post what you know.
I've reported what has been written by historians, military
historians, and former military officers. The sources have
been given. Look them up.
>>I stand by my assertion that Moshe Dayan was a great
>>strategist, and a great warrior. I request why you
>>think you know more than the historical documents
>>available via the more renounded encyclopedias.
I'd like to know why you think an encyclopedia entry
is superior to detailed accounts by historians, military
historians, military personnel, and persons who lived
through the incidents described.
You DO know who H.M. Sachar, Chaim Herzog, and Shabtai Teveth are,
don't you? Also, Mordechai Makleff and Uzi Narkiss?
>>Superman is a fictional character. So is the standard
>>version of Dayan.
>Dayan was the greatest warrior in the history of Israel.
For someone who had little field combat experience to his credit, he
gained quite a reputation. In fact, what he was was a great showman.
>>Precisely. Dayan "became one of Israel's most famous men", "found
>>fame", was "associated with victories", and "developed the aura of a
>>military 'superman'".
>> http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Dayan.html
>You think his actions were not the underlying reason to this?
What actions? Do specify some of his actions in 1948.
><snipped other things - we have enough to talk about already>
You mean facts you couldn't refute, no?
>>If I'm off base, then so are the Israelis cited above.
>I have to go run errands. I am on vacation for two weeks
>to get things done.
How convenient. Enjoy. Do find time to look through the books I
referenced, particularly Sachar.
>One personal question, Deborah.
>Are you Jewish, and have you ever lived in Israel. If
>you did live in Israel, did you spend time in the IDF?
What the eff does this idiotic insistence of Zahal service
have to do with the subject? Did you serve in it? Sachar
didn't. Yet he remains one of the premier historians of
Israel today.
Deborah
"Don't' be so humble, you're not that great." - Golda to
Dayan
El Bleacho
>> Show me peer reviews of his missions by generals,
>> and IDF documents showing the details of the
>> missions and deployments.
>
> Post your own "peer reviews of his missions by generals, and IDF
> documents" etc. -- such as those extant from 1948.
I am not the one bringing his valor into question. You have done so, and
therefore need to prove these things you believe. Forget the stealing of
oranges - that's petty; but I want to see proof that he acted in a cowardly
fashion in combat; or that he made any other bad combat decisions.
> All very commendable. What any of it has to do with
> the history of Israel in 1948?
I gave a synopsis of my military and military contractor experience because
I believe it gives the the ability to judge cowardice during conflict. Can
you do the same?
> I've reported what has been written by historians, military
> historians, and former military officers. The sources have
> been given. Look them up.
I know what he did or did not do, Deborah. He acted with honor and bravery
in 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973; as well as throughout his entire career.
The fact that I am here today and not a pile of ashes somewhere is proof
positive of the bravery of Moshe Dayan.
> I'd like to know why you think an encyclopedia entry
> is superior to detailed accounts by historians, military
> historians, military personnel, and persons who lived
> through the incidents described.
An encyclopedia is a specific journal of the events. It has no hidden
agenda, no alterior motives, and does not color the facts. Dayan acted
bravely, and managed troops. You seem to think otherwise. I do not
subscribe to hearsay. But I do believe that Coiurts Martial Summaries and
Decisions speak for themselves. I respect the process, and defend the
results. If Moshe Dayan was the incompetant coward you portray; then you
should have no trouble producing his Courts Martials.
> What actions? Do specify some of his actions in 1948.
I have. Repeatedly. I stated exactly where and whom he commanded, and when.
> You mean facts you couldn't refute, no?
BULLSHIT. I get tired of your petty idiocy about what his grandson thought
of him, or some arab who whined that Moshe stole his orange. I cut through
your non-relative and somewhat silly assertions with regard to that; and
listed the main issues at hand. Prove he is not a warrior and strategist.
Not with idiotic statements such as "they did not have documents in 1948",
which was a laughable lie; but with IDF declassified documents showing his
errors in judgement.
> What the eff does this idiotic insistence of Zahal service
> have to do with the subject? Did you serve in it? Sachar
> didn't. Yet he remains one of the premier historians of
> Israel today.
Is this your dodge? I served for over a decade in the ANG and worked with
IDF officers on the JSTARS and Patriot systems. My uncle and godfather is
an IDF contractor living in Tel Aviv; an MIT Ph.D. working on military
technology. I know the history of Moshe Dayan; and I *know now* that you
have no military experience. You are just an outsider who wants to
criticize others to make herself seem more important. Well, Deborah;
you have no military background, no military training, no military
academia; and are laughably caught lying. I don't know or care what your
agenda is on this. I called you on your BULLSHIT; and that is enough.
Deborah Sharavi
>>>Prove that empirically, or retract it. What does this have to do
>>>with
>>>your assertion that Dayan was not a great warrior?
>>Refutation of Dayan's (very cagey) account that his parents were
>>founders of Deganyah Alef. They were not.
El Bleacho wrote:
>Prove it.
Just did. Reading comprehension problems?
>But please remind yourself that it does not matter if they did
>or did not found DA. Your assertion is that Dayan is not a great military
>strategist.
Right. He wasn't a great military strategist or a first rate military
strategist.
>You have done nothing so far other than to try to assault his
>character; with statements such as above or how you went on and on about
>how once his son made him cry. Who cares if his son made him cry?
Me.
>I could
>care less what he does when he was not commanding troops for Israel. You
>keep avoiding the important fact; which is that you came into this thread
>to assert that Moshe Dayan was not a strategist. Now you should take the
>time to prove it.
Wrong. I differed that he was a GREAT strategist or a FIRST RATE
strategist: that was the opinion of Chaim Herzog, who ought to know.
Read the thread. DoD pointed to the JVL account of Dayan's life. I
said it erred at several points, which it does by way of omission of
facts, and I directed attention to those facts and where they can be
referenced. If you don't want to take the time to look out the few
books I referenced, that's not my problem.
>>>Post the letters, as well as a certification to the authenticity of
>>>the signitures. Well, or retract that.
>>Dayan himself is the source for Shmuel's letters to him in England;
>>read his autobiography.
>I have. Again, prove your assertions. Saying you read something somewhere
>is not proof. You mentioned letters; now prove them.
Read the autobiography again. Then read Ruth Dayan's autobiography.
They are the sources, along with Slater and Teveth, that Shmuel wrote
Dayan in England about his dereliction of duty. Shmuel also became
annoyed at having to look after Moshe's boxer dog, Lasa, so he killed
her.
>>>You feel a person cannot read the classics while in jail? Is this a
>>>new law, or did you find this restriction in Talmud?
>>No, I think it's funny: Moshe Dayan, reading Gone With The Wind.
>>Prior to his military career and fame, however, his talents were for
>>poetry and art-that's according to Dayan, as well as his two
>>biographers.
>But who gives a shit?
Me.
>Jesus liked to work with wood. Is that what
>discounts him from being Messiah?
He wasn't.
>You think Moses, King David, Solomon,
>or other famous Jews had no personal interests?
We know some of their personal interests already.
>You are saying that Moshe
>Dayan reading Gone with the Wind while incarcerated is a reason why Dayan is
>not a military strategist. That is an unreasonable assertion.
And one I didn't make.
>>Dayan's account of his year and a half in the pokey is interesting,
>>amusing, and sad; his daughter was born when he was in jail, but he
>>could only look at her when Ruth held her up beyond the barbed wire in
>>the yard during visiting hours - very infrequent visiting hours. Like
>>maybe once a month. The 43 got on well with Arab political prisoners,
>>and both groups tended to scorn common criminals.
>Again, Deborah - what does this have to do with your assertion that Dayan
>was not a strategist?
Not my assertion.
>>>Prove that. I posted links to five encyclopedias within the past 2
>>>days proving he was in command during the 1948 war. Prove
>>>otherwise, or retract. As part of your proof, get Microsoft
>>>Encarta, World Book, and Britanica to retract; since they all
>>>clearly state that Dayan was a commander in 1948.
>>Read Dayan's autobiography; he specifically states B-G and Yadin sent
>>him to the Jordan Valley moshavot, but with no mandate over the local
>>commander(s).
>Again: Every history book states
What history books? So far, all you have referenced are Microsoft
Encarta, World Book, and Britanica.
> clearly that Dayan's activities in the
>1948 War of Independence began when he commanded the defense of Jewish
>settlements in the Jordan Valley.
He did not.
>He later commanded the battalion that
>attacked the city of Lydda
You think ONE battalion attacked Lydda? Dream on. Dayan's 40-minute
episode was, as Ben-Gurion remarked, "a prank-not war", and
halted the advance on Lydda, when other units had to be pulled from
their positions to rescue Dayan and his battalion when the Arab Legion
shot them to hell.
>and helped halt Egyptian forces on the southern
>front.
Dayan didn't do SHIT on the southern front.
>In August 1948, he was appointed commander on the Jerusalem front.
>Prove otherwise, or retract.
Prove he did ANYTHING on the Southern Front - apart from your
unsupported and repetitious assertions that he "helped halt Egyptian
forces on the southern front." He didn't. He was not involved in
Operation Yoav, or in Operation Chorev, or in Operation Uvda.
>>>>He disregarded operational orders, deserted his positions around the
>>>>international airport, against his commander's orders, because he
>>>>was bored.
>>>Prove that lie. Show me IDF declassified documents showing he
>>>deserted his position. IDF posts all declassified investigations.
>>I gave them previously.
>No, you gave nothing. You cut/paste some arab propaganda, nothing more.
Bullfewken shit. Read the sources I posted.
>I told you how to prove that he deserted positions.
Read his autobiography.
>Show me IDF Courts
>Martial Summary Decisions. IDF does a Courts Martial when an officer is
>derilict in his or her duty.
Read a history of Israel, and what the army was like in July 1948.
>> Reports from 1948 are few, as
>>there was as yet no standard method of keeping reports, or making
>>them.
>Utter and absolute BULLSHIT. Some of the forms I filled out in the Air
>National Guard, and some of the forms I still fill out today for the
>Military are from the 40's and 50's. In fact, I just had to root
>through 300 pages of initiative documents and mitigation documents that were
>approved by Dwight Eisenhower.
Were any of them Zahal forms? No. Had we just declared our independence
from Britain? No. Were we under attack from five different nations? No.
Get a clue: Zahal in 1948 was not the US armed forces. It was a militia
in the process of becoming an army.
>>>>He muffed the operation in Karatya in July 1947, and, as a result,
>>>>was replaced as commander of the 89th by Teddy Eytan (Thadee Difre).
>>>Pure conjecture. Prove it by posting his reassignment orders.
>>Commander of the 89th during Lydda: Dayan. Commander of the 89th
>>during Yoav, Chorev, and Uvda: Teddy Eytan.
>Again, Deborah; you are caught in a lie. Show the reassignment orders.
Get your head out of your asshole, bub. He was removed from command the
89th after he fucked up Karatiya ON BEN-GURION'S ORDERS and
reassigned to J'lem. Dayan himself gives an account of how he fucked
up Karatiya. So does Slater, Teveth, and Kurzman. So did Thadee Difre,
who took over the 89th and turned it into the French Commando Unit,
which served in the Negev, but his account is in French and I've
never been able to find it over here. Kurzman interviewed him and
provided his account.
>All you are doing is parroting the one propeganda document you have.
You're really upset that your hero has feet of clay, aren't you.
>You
>said he muffed the operation, and that the result was his being replaced.
>Now prove it.
He muffed it. Dayan's account shows he muffed it, as do the accounts
of Slater, Kurzman, and Herzog.
>His reassignment orders will show the reason for
>reassignment. Prove that he made a derelict decision while in charge of
>operations in Karatya in 1947.
What "reassignment orders"? Look at the fucking accounts given by
Israeli historians, and those who served in 1948.
>>>When I was
>>>in the US Military, for every transfer or promotion I recieved
>>>printed orders in triplicate.
>>The Israeli army in 1948 was not the US military. In 1948, the Palmach
>>had not yet dissolved its separate command structure, and did not, in
>>any case, like taking orders from Haganah, and the Etzel and the
>>Lech'i likewise maintained separate commands. Recall the Altalena
>>incident.
>Stop spewing garbage, and address the specific issue.
>Prove your assertion
>that Dayan was transferred due to incompetance, cowardice, or error in
>judgement. Post the Transfer Order.
No, bubba. YOU prove YOUR implications that Dayan saved Israel in 1948,
when every CREDIBLE historian on the subject - include Israeli
historians who fought in that war - give a different account.
>>>Post criminal charges, or even photographs taken on behalf of
>>>the criminal investigation. Police always respond to complaints of
>>>theft by filling out a police report in Jerusalem. And what does
>>>this have to do with your assertion that Dayan was not a great
>>>warrior?
>>Already answered.
>Lie! Prove that he was a criminal and that he was involved in these
>thefts. Show me a copy of a criminal investigation.
What are you schreiing about? Half Israel knew of his questionable
dealings over artifacts. Like anyone's going to arrest Moshe Dayan.
>>>When deciding whether to courts martial an officer; the courts
>>>martial is based on the uniform code of military justice. The UCMJ
>>>is the bible.
>>>Any
>>>potential courts martial (summary or otherwise) is started by
>>>filling out a UCMJ violation form. I had to fill them out for
>>>things as petty as finding a slice of pizza in a footlocker of one
>>>of the enlisted men in my squadron.
>>Last I knew, the UCMJ was not operative in Israel.
>You never knew. When was the last time you were an officer in the IDF, or
>did any joint exercises with IDF? I worked with IDF forces when we
>deployed the Patriot in Tel Aviv during Gulf War I; as I was on the QA team
>that developed the launch control modules for the Patriot. IDF absolutely
>has a Uniform Code of Military Justice.
Very good. Did they have one in 1948? No, they did not. They barely had
an army for most of 1948.
>>"One day Moshe Dayan, who lost an eye while fighting in the British
>>army during World War II, was stopped for speeding by a military
>>policeman. 'I have only one eye,' he protested. 'What do you want me
>>to watch - the speedometer or the road!?'" Dayan, Moshe (1915-1981)
>>Israeli minister of defense (1967, 1969-74) and foreign minister
>>(1977-79) [Sources: C. Fadiman, ed., Bartlett's Anecdotes]
>That is not proof. That is unsubstantiated rumor. Show me the speeding
>CHIT.
You are growing even more absurd than before.
>>>Post the reassignment applications. Specifically, I want to see the
>>>verbose section on reasons. These are reviewed by the CO and signed
>>>off; whether approved or denied. Every time. No matter what.
>>See Dayan's autobiography and Rabin's memoirs. Both give
>>substantially the same account. Dayan showed up, the ex-Palmach
>>officers were cold and silent because B-G had just kicked Yigal Alon
>>out of the army.
>Prove it. Post Reassignment Order and Reassignment Requests.
Read the fewken books.
>>Chaim Herzog wrote in his Living History that Dayan got cold feet, he
>>froze, and that he was prone to bouts of extreme indecisiveness; a
>>"Hamletian figure", is how Herzog described him.
>BULLSHIT. Who cares what someone wrote.
When that someone served in the Hagana from age 17, in the British
Officers Corps training program three years later, then the British
Army, fought in the elite Guards Armoured Division in the European
theatre, shaped the Hagana's Shai, served as operations chief for the
7th brigade in 1948 as well as chief of military intelligence, later
military attache at Israel's Washington embassy, commanded the
Jerusalem Brigade during Sinai, served as chief of staff Southern
Command, headed IDF intelligence, was first military governor of the
West Bank and Jerusalem, ambassador to the UN, and 6th president of
Israel -- yeah, I think I rather care what he wrote.
>Show me the Results of Orders
>documents that were completed by Dayan and signed by his Commanding Officer.
>If Dayan made incorrect troop movement determinations, incorrect
>mobilizations, and incompleted assignments; then show me the Results of
>Orders documents.
You really are absurd. The results have been given. What you have left
out, which is very important here, is the matter of politics. Dayan
wasn't a Palmakhnik. Ben-Gurion wanted the Palmakh out of the way.
>>>Dayan had a strong interest in archeology, to be sure; but the
>>>assertion that he peddled his artifacts on black markets must be
>>>proven. Proof might include investigation results from the
>>>Jerusalem Police Department.
>>Half Israel knows his not so legal acquisition of artifacts. It used
>>cheese me off. Now, however, I incline toward the view that he
>>preserved ancient Jewish artifacts which might otherwise have been
>>destroyed by Muslim Arabs, like they are doing to Jewish artifacts on
>>Temple Mt. In any case, Dayan left them to the nation, so he's okay.
>"Cheesed you off"? What are you talking about? How long have you lived in
>Israel?
Do I have to live in a country to be cheesed off over the pilfering of
artifacts?
>How long did you serve in the IDF?
Get off it.
>How did archeological digs in
>Israel affect your daily life living there? And most importantly, why are
>you sidestepping showing proof of your bogus assertions? Show me
>investigation reports from the Jerusalem Police Department.
You are being as stupid and hysterical as Thermidor.
>>Produce some of that documentation which states the planning for the
>>Six Day War was NOT done by the Ministerial Defence Committee and the
>>General Staff, or that Rabin was NOT the chief architect of the
>>victory.
>You said that Dayan was not a strategist. That is a LIE.
No, bubba, you are the bullshitter here. I said he wasn't a GREAT
strategist or a FIRST RATE strategist. I also denied YOUR assertion
that he was Superman.
>Turning this
>around and asking someone else to prove to the contrary is false thought
>processes. Especially when I asked you for empirical proof to substantiate
>this LIE.
You ain't exactly playing with a full deck.
>All historical documents explain what he did and when;
You haven't produced any. All you've produced is some vague
reference to three encyclopedias.
>and you
>are contending that he is not a military strategist.
Wrong again. I said he wasn't a GREAT strategist or a FIRST RATE
strategist or, as you asserted, Superman.
>Now prove this. Do not answer questions with non-related hearsay. Prove some of your
>assertions.
References to works by qualified historians are not hearsay.
>>>BULLSHIT. Dayan was the premier reason for the full attack on Syria.
>>>This is in EVERY historical document on Dayan ever written.
Which you have obviously not read.
>>I do not
>>>know where you are getting your Islamic propeganda; but it is
>>>laughable at best.
>>I've never heard Yitzhak Rabin, Chaim Herzog, H.M. Sachar, Yigal
>>Alon, and Martin Gilbert desribed as "Islamic propagandists".
>>Dayan's big bugaboo in the war was the Soviet Union, and their
>>potential reaction in favor of Syria, their "shining star on their
>>Third World Xmas tree."
>You said Dayan had nothing to do with the fight against Syria. You lied.
Bullshit on both counts.
>You have yet to address ONE SINGLE LIE with any empirical proof of anything.
I gave references. Get off your hysterical ass and read them.
>>No, from Sharon's own writings. Dayan was, in fact, in the habit of
>>giving generalized orders and leaving the details to others. He
>>himself wrote that day-to-day details bored him.
>You have absolutely no idea how military orders are served and carried out,
>do you? Post your military record, Deborah. I posted mine, now you post
>yours.
Irrelevent. You have absolutely no idea what state Israel's military
was in c1948, that is obvious. Yadin and Galili told Ben-Gurion three
days before the Arabs invaded that Israel had, at best, a 50-50 chance
of surviving the onslaught.
>>Do you think a minister of defence - a civilian position - decided
>>troop movements in 1967?
>Are you insane? Is the Commander In Chief also a civilian position?
Dayan was Minister of Defence-a civilian position--not "commander
in chief". Israel has no such position. The Chief of Staff in 1967
was Yitzhak Rabin; he'd been chief of operations and deputy chief of
staff from 1959 through 1964 and chief of staff since 1964. Dayan left
the military in 1958 and was elected to the Knesset in 1959; he was
B-G's minister of agriculture until 1964, when he resigned. In all
that time, Dayan had nothing to do with the military. Rabin and his
staff did.
>Post
>your military record. Then we can talk about your understanding of Chain Of
>Command; which should have been part of your Basic Training.
You are growing beyond absurd into pure idiocy. Israel's history
should be part of your education before you presume to comment on what
its military was like in 1948.
>>>Prove that. Post conversation transcripts from a reputable site,
>>>such as the IDF historical documents that are published and
>>>available on the web.
>>See Rabin's memoirs, Slater's bio of Dayan, Sachar's History of
>>Israel, and Gilbert's Israel: A History.
>No. You post conversation transcripts. If you are going to say "he said,
>she said"; then back it up with PROOF.
Yup, straight from absurdity into idiocy. Proof is in the books
referenced.
>>He was responsible for the army's unpreparedness in 1973. See Chaim
>>Herzog, H.M. Sachar, R. Slater, Golda's memoirs, and Dayan's own
>>autobiography.
>Two sentences ago you clearly inferred that civilian elected posts cannot
>be responsible for military movements and military decisions. You state,
>and I quote "Do you think a minister of defence - a civilian position -
>decided troop movements in 1967?"
Go read a few of the books I suggested, so you won't sound like a
bloody moron.
>>>Is that what you define as an autobiography? "Tooting your horn?"
>>Read Dayan's autobiography. It's most definitely tooting his own
>>horn--something he was very good at.
>Again, conjecture and hearsay.
Horseshit. It was definitely tootling his own horn, as well as an
apologia pro sua vita.
>>>What the fuck does that have to do with your silly assertion that
>>>Dayan was not a great warrior? And how would you know that his
>>>"son chewed him out until he cried". Were you there - can you
>>>therefore publish the transcript of the conversation?
>>See Slater's and Teveth's biographies. Slater's sources were Assi
>>Dayan, Yael and Rachel Dayan, who were present when Assi slammed into
>>his father. Udi Dayan wrote a "j'accuse" type of letter to the
>>paper when he found that their father had cut him, his brother and
>>sister of his will, and left everything to his second wife. The letter
>>was milder than Assi's verbal diatribe, but the general tenor was the
>>same. The second wife gave them each a large chunk of money to stop
>>pestering her.
>Again; what does your gossip have to do with your assertion that "Dayan was
>not a strategist" ?!?!?!?!??!
Never made that assertion. Why are you indulging in such hysterics
merely because you have problems with the FACT that your hero had feet
of clay? Most heroes do.
Read the sources I gave, then come back and discuss the matter when
you've acquainted yourself with a few of the facts.
Deborah
Deborah Sharavi
>>>and IDF documents showing the details of the
>>>missions and deployments.
>>Post your own "peer reviews of his missions by generals, and IDF
>>documents" etc. -- such as those extant from 1948.
El Bleacho wrote:
>I am not the one bringing his valor into question.
Neither am I.
>You have done so, and therefore need to prove these things you believe.
Bullshit, you bloody liar. I said NOTHING about his unquestionable
valor - although he himself did.
>Forget the stealing of
>oranges - that's petty; but I want to see proof that he acted in a cowardly
>fashion in combat; or that he made any other bad combat decisions.
I gave you the references. Now go and study.
>>All very commendable. What any of it has to do with
>>the history of Israel in 1948?
>I gave a synopsis of my military and military contractor experience because
>I believe it gives the the ability to judge cowardice during conflict. Can
>you do the same?
It has NOTHING to do with the subject. I gave you references to
military commanders from 1948, who were far more qualified than you to
make judgements concerning Dayan's actions - or lack thereof -and
they found him wanting.
>>I've reported what has been written by historians, military
>>historians, and former military officers. The sources have
>>been given. Look them up.
>I know what he did or did not do, Deborah.
No, you do not, and that is obvious.
>He acted with honor and bravery in 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973; as well
>as throughout his entire career.
Horseshi'ite.
>The fact that I am here today and not a pile of ashes somewhere is proof
>positive of the bravery of Moshe Dayan.
The fact that we come closest to a nuclear confrontation with the
Soviets in 1973 is proof positive of Dayan's actions.
>>I'd like to know why you think an encyclopedia entry
>>is superior to detailed accounts by historians, military
>>historians, military personnel, and persons who lived
>>through the incidents described.
>An encyclopedia is a specific journal of the events.
It isn't.
>It has no hidden agenda, no alterior motives, and does not color
>the facts.
Check out Wikipedia.
>Dayan acted bravely, and managed troops. You seem to think otherwise.
I have never questioned his courage.
>I do not subscribe to hearsay.
Or facts either, it seems.
>But I do believe that Coiurts Martial Summaries and
>Decisions speak for themselves. I respect the process, and defend the
>results. If Moshe Dayan was the incompetant coward you portray; then you
>should have no trouble producing his Courts Martials.
Where the fuck did you get the idea I am portraying him as an
incompetent COWARD? I gave you accounts by officers who served in
combat with him in 1948. While their accounts were not as flattering as
you would like associated with your hero, they are factual.
>>What actions? Do specify some of his actions in 1948.
>I have. Repeatedly. I stated exactly where and whom he commanded, and when.
Liar. You haven't stated a goddam thing he did in 1948, other than
"he commanded the attack on Lydda" - which he didn't - and
"he was military governor of J'lem." BFD. What did he DO in those
positions? Give an account of his actions with regard to Karatiya,
where he got his battalion stuck in a wadi, left them to dig themselves
out while he took a nap, then arrived too late to assist Givati.
>>You mean facts you couldn't refute, no?
>BULLSHIT. I get tired of your petty idiocy about what his grandson thought
>of him, or some arab who whined that Moshe stole his orange.
I haven't a clue what his grandson thought of him, and AFAIK, no Arab
claimed Dayan pilfered his oranges.
>I cut through
>your non-relative and somewhat silly assertions with regard to that; and
>listed the main issues at hand. Prove he is not a warrior and strategist.
I never claimed he was not, you hysterical fool. Go read some books
that cover the subject in depth.
>Actually, it wasn't the
>Not with idiotic statements such as "they did not have documents in 1948",
>which was a laughable lie;
I never stated anything of the sort, you liar.
>but with IDF declassified documents showing his
>errors in judgement.
>>What the eff does this idiotic insistence of Zahal service
>>have to do with the subject? Did you serve in it? Sachar
>>didn't. Yet he remains one of the premier historians of
>>Israel today.
>Is this your dodge? I served for over a decade in the ANG and worked with
>IDF officers on the JSTARS and Patriot systems. My uncle and godfather is
>an IDF contractor living in Tel Aviv; an MIT Ph.D. working on military
>technology.
Mazal tov. Did you serve in 1948?
>I know the history of Moshe Dayan;
It's obvious you don't.
>and I *know now* that you have no military experience. You are
>just an outsider who wants to criticize others to make herself seem
>more important. Well, Deborah;
>you have no military background, no military training, no military
>academia; and are laughably caught lying.
You haven't caught any lies, since I didn't lie. You have lied
several times.
>I don't know or care what your
>agenda is on this. I called you on your BULLSHIT; and that is enough.
No, you didn't. You failed there, as you failed all through this
thread to produce anything on what Dayan did in 1948 beyond your
cut'n'paste job from one or another of your three encyclopedias.
Too bad you've gone into hysterics because your cherished hero
wasn't so heroic as you imagined. At your age, you should be able to
deal with it.
Deborah
Deborah Sharavi
>Deborah - you clearly stated that Moshe Dayan was not a strategist.
Bullshit.
Go read the references I gave, and come back when you've recovered from
your hysterical shock at finding your Superman had feet of clay, or you
can summon enough nerve to read something beyond three encyclopedia
entries.
Deborah
Deborah Sharavi
>>commander in it. Neither was Rabin a founder of Hagana, or a leader of
>>it.
AntiZ...@hotmail.com wrote:
>Haganah was most certainly a terror group and their crimes were so
>severe that the Israeli Regime felt in necessary to grant them immunity
>for their crimes after the Israeli Regime declared statehood.
Typical bullshit from Thermidor.
>December 19, 1947. Haganah terrorists attacked an Arab village near
>Safad
Sure they did. And the name of that village is.....?
>January 1, 1948. Haganah terrorists attacked a village on the slopes of
>Mount Carmel;
Sure they did. And the name of that village is....?
>January 4, 1948. Haganah terrorists wearing British Army uniforms
You've mixed the Hagana with Arabs who bombed the Jewish Agency.
>>Prof Uri Milstein was never any "official historian" for the IDF.
>He is a well respecteed Historian and expert on IDF history regarless
>of what YOU believe DimBulb. Either way, if you cannot dispute what he
>says, just fade away DimBulb.
I've read Milstein's works, you dumb cunt, you haven't. He was never
any "official IDF historian".
>>>who has written and spoken about the use of bacteriological agents.
>>Load of balls from a known bullthrower.
>This is well known Dimbulb.
In your crack pipe, maybe.
>Naeim Giladi is an Iraqi Jew
Giladi is a bullshitting Arab whose phoney account has been debunked by
real Iraqi Jews.
>>>According to Mileshtin,
>>Typical Palliebull misspelling of Milstein.
>Probably my misspelling
No, it's typical of Arab terrorist and neo-Nazi Palliebull specifically
dumbed down for dumb cunts like you, Thermidor.
>>>Moshe Dyan, a division commander at the time, gave orders in
>>>1948 to remove Arabs from their villages, bulldoze their homes, and
>>>render water wells unusable with typhus and dysentery bacteria.
>>Dayan wasn't a division commander in 1948.
>Prove that he was not at any time in 1948 in command of a division
>DimBlub.
He was commander of the 89th battalion of the 8th Armoured Brigade, and
thereafter military governor of Jerusalem. Look it up, you dumb cunt.
Deborah
El Bleacho
<snip taunts and insults>
>
> Never made that assertion. Why are you indulging in such hysterics
> merely because you have problems with the FACT that your hero had feet
> of clay? Most heroes do.
My problem is that you are wrong, and act otherwise. Dayan was a great
strategist, a true warrior, and a decent politician on the back end of his
career. Anything you say to the contrary will have to be substantiated by
IDF reports / IDF analysis; or it is just bullshit hearsay.
> Read the sources I gave, then come back and discuss the matter when
> you've acquainted yourself with a few of the facts.
When you start posting IDF reports showing any failures on the part of
Dayan; I will definitely take your posts seriously. But, Deborah, you
have skirted every single chance you had to show Dayan as anything short of
heroic. Each time, you go back to that one lengthy article you downloaded
from some islamic website. I highly suspect that you have not read any of
the books you profess that I should; though I certainly cannot prove that
without reading them and then testing you on content you could only know if
you had the books in your posession. As such, that will always only be
suspicion and nothing more. I think the thing that enrages me most
about your bullshit in this thread is that you have absolutely no military
exposure whatsoever; but try and tell people with actual combat experience
what you think of great generals of the battlefield. You were never in the
military, never worked for the military, do not live in Israel, never
lived in Israel, and unless you say otherwise; I suspect you are not even
an Orthodox Jew. With all this, you still try to come off as some sort of
expert on the subject at hand. You know, this is going nowhere. When
you get some IDF report links to show me, we can take this thread back up.
And Deborah; if you are not Israeli or even Jewish; why are you here? I'm
just curious. I know this is not pertinent to this discussion.
dsha...@hotmail.com
> <snip taunts and insults>
>>Never made that assertion. Why are you indulging in such hysterics
>>merely because you have problems with the FACT that your hero had feet
>>of clay? Most heroes do.
El Bleacho wrote:
>My problem is that you are wrong, and act otherwise. Dayan was a great
>strategist, a true warrior, and a decent politician on the back end of his
> career.
Proof you haven't read a goddam thing about Dayan.
Deborah
El Bleacho
> I gave you the references. Now go and study.
You gave me hearsay. I just want facts. Show me IDF documents. I want to
see how you said he failed to execute his responsibilities correctly.
> It has NOTHING to do with the subject. I gave you references to
> military commanders from 1948, who were far more qualified than you to
> make judgements concerning Dayan's actions - or lack thereof -and
> they found him wanting.
People with an agenda. Why can't you just post links to IDF reports and
analysis of his actions during combat?
>> The fact that I am here today and not a pile of ashes somewhere is
>> proof positive of the bravery of Moshe Dayan.
>
> The fact that we come closest to a nuclear confrontation with the
> Soviets in 1973 is proof positive of Dayan's actions.
ROFL. USSR wanting a direct line of oil from Middle East through
Afghanestan is Dayan's fault?!?!??! Is Cuba Missile Crisis also Dayan's
fault?!?!?!
>> I do not subscribe to hearsay.
>
> Or facts either, it seems.
You have yet to present one single fact. I have given you ample opportunity
to give links to any published reports that the IDF generated on any of
Dayan's commands.
> Mazal tov. Did you serve in 1948?
Did you serve anywhere, at any time? If so, where/when? Come on now,
liar; here is where the rubber meets the road. Bases, CO's, MOS's,
assignments, deployments. Where and when did you serve in the US and/or
Israeli military, Deborah?
> You haven't caught any lies, since I didn't lie. You have lied
> several times.
You are projecting, liar.
> No, you didn't. You failed there, as you failed all through this
> thread to produce anything on what Dayan did in 1948 beyond your
> cut'n'paste job from one or another of your three encyclopedias.
> Too bad you've gone into hysterics because your cherished hero
> wasn't so heroic as you imagined. At your age, you should be able to
> deal with it.
I am not now, nor have I ever been hysterical; liar. You should stop with
your projections. Tell me about your military training, Deborah. Tell
me all about how that training makes you uniquely qualified to discern if
Moshe Dayan was a competant or incompetant strategist, and/or competant or
incompetant warrior.
El Bleacho
> Look it up, you dumb
> cunt.
Granted, ZioNazi is a loon; but your language skills are regressing to the
point of being like Riain. Is that how you want to be perceived? If any
of my four daughters spoke like that; they would be tasting soap right now.
Is Deborah really your name, and are you honestly female? I cannot fathom
a woman using the "c" word. It is unbecoming; even of redneck trailer
trash.
El Bleacho
> El Bleacho wrote:
>> My problem is that you are wrong, and act otherwise. Dayan was a
>> great strategist, a true warrior, and a decent politician on the
>> back end of his career.
>
> Proof you haven't read a goddam thing about Dayan.
I have read more than I can recite on the wars of 1948, 1967, and 1973;
and certainly know Dayan's place in history. I have read what he authored;
though not the other propaganda you posted in your islamic link.
But back to you for a second; please tell me about your military experience
and about your religion. Were you raised Jewish? Are you now Jewish? If
so, where did you go to Hebrew School and Jewish Summer Camp. Did they
talk about Moshe Dayan there? How did your parents speak of Dayan?
Your military career - did you serve in the IDF or US Armed Forces? If
so, what did you do during your military career? Did you ever study
military strategy when you were in the military? What military actions were
you involved in? Gulf War I or II? Libya bombing? Panama? Afghanistan?
The Department of Defense
"El Bleacho" <ElBl...@Clorox.gov> wrote in message
> Deborah Sharavi wrote:
>> Look it up, you dumb
>> cunt.
>
> Granted, ZioNazi is a loon; but your language skills are regressing to
> the point of being like Riain. Is that how you want to be perceived? If
> any of my four daughters spoke like that; they would be tasting soap
> right now. Is Deborah really your name, and are you honestly female? I
> cannot fathom a woman using the "c" word. It is unbecoming; even of
> redneck trailer trash.
Are you kidding? Everyone gets teed off, from time to time. The amount of
shit that teddy slings here, its not a wonder she doesn't curse him out way
more than what she does.
El Bleacho
>>> Look it up, you dumb
>>> cunt.
>>
>> Granted, ZioNazi is a loon; but your language skills are
>> regressing to the point of being like Riain. Is that how you want
>> to be perceived? If any of my four daughters spoke like that; they
>> would be tasting soap right now. Is Deborah really your name, and are you
>> honestly female? I cannot fathom a woman using the "c"
>> word. It is unbecoming; even of redneck trailer trash.
>
> Are you kidding? Everyone gets teed off, from time to time. The
> amount of shit that teddy slings here, its not a wonder she doesn't
> curse him out way more than what she does.
I have seen her use the "c" word about 10 times today.
The Department of Defense
"El Bleacho" <ElBl...@Clorox.gov> wrote in message
How come you don't complain about others that cuss on here?
El Bleacho
> "El Bleacho" <ElBl...@Clorox.gov> wrote in message
>
> How come you don't complain about others that cuss on here?
Are you kidding me?!??!?!?! I have posted 100 times asking Susan to
counsel Riain about his mouth. I put Riain in killfile for that EXACT
reason. The ONLY reason that Deborah is not in my killfile is that
outside of bizarre hatred of Dayan; I have appreciated the work she does on
researching issues that are being discussed. I have thrown more people
than I care to imagine into Killfile because if anti-Semitism and/or
completely out of control language. In fact, I have to page-down like 100
times if I look through my killfile. Seriously! I curse on occasion, but
never the "c" word. That is one of the must vulgar and disgusting words
ever created.
The Department of Defense
"El Bleacho" <ElBl...@Clorox.gov> wrote in message
> The Department of Defense wrote:
>> "El Bleacho" <ElBl...@Clorox.gov> wrote in message
>>> I have seen her use the "c" word about 10 times today.
>>
>> How come you don't complain about others that cuss on here?
>
> Are you kidding me?!??!?!?! I have posted 100 times asking Susan to
> counsel Riain about his mouth.
Good luck with that one.
I put Riain in killfile for that EXACT
> reason. The ONLY reason that Deborah is not in my killfile is that
> outside of bizarre hatred of Dayan;
She never said that, come on and be fair. She is just pointing out that some
of his exploits are overhyped.
I have appreciated the work she does on
> researching issues that are being discussed. I have thrown more people
> than I care to imagine into Killfile because if anti-Semitism and/or
> completely out of control language.
Well then who do you respond to? And b.t.w. you have said that you are here
to respond to posters that want to learn about the Jews, yet I have asked
you several questions to which you didn't respond. Whats up with that? I
would like to actually have some friendly discussions on ideas.
In fact, I have to page-down like 100
> times if I look through my killfile. Seriously! I curse on occasion,
> but never the "c" word. That is one of the must vulgar and disgusting
> words ever created.
I agree El Bleacho, it is a very vulgar word. But in my opinion its not
nearly as vulgar as the racism that goes on around here. That really makes
me sick.
El Bleacho
>> Are you kidding me?!??!?!?! I have posted 100 times asking Susan to
>> counsel Riain about his mouth.
>
> Good luck with that one.
Yes. I have yet to understand why she tolerates him.
> She never said that, come on and be fair. She is just pointing out
> that some of his exploits are overhyped.
"You don't tug on Superman's cape." $1 Jim Croce
> Well then who do you respond to? And b.t.w. you have said that you
> are here to respond to posters that want to learn about the Jews, yet
> I have asked you several questions to which you didn't respond. Whats
> up with that? I would like to actually have some friendly discussions
> on ideas.
There are two sets of folks. There are those who want to learn about the
Jews, and if there is something I know that can help, I do. There are
also the anti-Semites that come in here just to be rude, vulgar, and find
some way to justify their hatred of my people. I do not know of any
questions you ever asked me that I could have responded to, but didn't.
I will confess that I work quite a bit, and if something seems like too
much work I just ignore it and move on. Also, sometimes if I do not think
responding will be fun for me, I politely skip over it. If it's not fun
for us, why come here; right? Also, if I responded to something other
than that with basically the same response as I would have given, I pass on
that opportunity as well. I am on vacation this week and next, so you
will see me here more during that time period. If I can answer something
for you, I will try.
> I agree El Bleacho, it is a very vulgar word. But in my opinion its
> not nearly as vulgar as the racism that goes on around here. That
> really makes me sick.
I walked away from this group in 2003 for 2 years. Alex and some of the
others had me so mad that I wanted to do them harm. I took 2 years off and
learned to use a killfile. As such, I miss most of the racism. As soon as
I see words like zionazi, vulgarity past the point of humor, kike, hebe,
or anything against Israel I just toss them in killfile. It keeps me sane,
and keeps my anger under control. "A man's got to know his limitations."
$1 Clint Eastwood.
The #Revd
wrote:
She's a foul-mouthed jew ho'.
Susan Cohen
"El Bleacho" <ElBl...@Clorox.gov> wrote in message
>
>
> Yes. I have yet to understand why she tolerates him.
Perhaps because I understand him.
Susan
El Bleacho
Susan, I have always liked things about you that you often display on this
group. I hope to God that you do not truly understand that psychopathic
loon. He is best left to his own regards. He is certainly not Jewish, and
certainly not sane.
Mickey
news:ySCFe.9167$Nh3....@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
Yes, but for the most part, that is the racist's favorite epithet. That
being the case, I won't go near it.
Mickey
The Department of Defense
"El Bleacho" <ElBl...@Clorox.gov> wrote in message
> The Department of Defense wrote:
> >> Are you kidding me?!??!?!?! I have posted 100 times asking Susan to
> >> counsel Riain about his mouth.
> >
> > Good luck with that one.
>
> Yes. I have yet to understand why she tolerates him.
Dude, he is the embodiement of why people (unfairly hates Jews) HE IS THE
JEWS WORST ENEMY. And if you need some expansion on that, you have only to
ask.
> > She never said that, come on and be fair. She is just pointing out
> > that some of his exploits are overhyped.
>
> "You don't tug on Superman's cape." $1 Jim Croce
She really wasn't. She was quoting Wonder Woman, Spiderman, The Green
Lantern, and the rest of the Superfriends.
> > Well then who do you respond to? And b.t.w. you have said that you
> > are here to respond to posters that want to learn about the Jews, yet
> > I have asked you several questions to which you didn't respond. Whats
> > up with that? I would like to actually have some friendly discussions
> > on ideas.
>
> There are two sets of folks. There are those who want to learn about the
> Jews, and if there is something I know that can help, I do. There are
> also the anti-Semites that come in here just to be rude, vulgar, and find
> some way to justify their hatred of my people. I do not know of any
> questions you ever asked me that I could have responded to, but didn't.
> I will confess that I work quite a bit, and if something seems like too
> much work I just ignore it and move on. Also, sometimes if I do not
think
> responding will be fun for me, I politely skip over it. If it's not fun
> for us, why come here; right? Also, if I responded to something other
> than that with basically the same response as I would have given, I pass
on
> that opportunity as well. I am on vacation this week and next, so you
> will see me here more during that time period. If I can answer something
> for you, I will try.
Fair enough.
> > I agree El Bleacho, it is a very vulgar word. But in my opinion its
> > not nearly as vulgar as the racism that goes on around here. That
> > really makes me sick.
>
> I walked away from this group in 2003 for 2 years. Alex and some of the
> others had me so mad that I wanted to do them harm. I took 2 years off
and
> learned to use a killfile. As such, I miss most of the racism. As soon
as
> I see words like zionazi, vulgarity past the point of humor, kike,
hebe,
> or anything against Israel I just toss them in killfile. It keeps me
sane,
> and keeps my anger under control. "A man's got to know his limitations."
> $1 Clint Eastwood.
Don't take it all too personally and you will be fine. Quick question for
you, why are Jews so hesitant to criticize their own?
The Department of Defense
The ##Revd
Ask Mouth what he thinks of "ragheads", Doodoo.
The ##Revd
wrote:
That being the case, I'd expect you to use it every time you mention
the word "raghead", Mouth.
The ##Revd
<the...@ss.mil> wrote:
>
>"El Bleacho" <ElBl...@Clorox.gov> wrote in message
>news:EtDFe.53$zj1...@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com...
>> The Department of Defense wrote:
>> >> Are you kidding me?!??!?!?! I have posted 100 times asking Susan to
>> >> counsel Riain about his mouth.
>> >
>> > Good luck with that one.
>>
>> Yes. I have yet to understand why she tolerates him.
>
>Dude, he is the embodiement of why people (unfairly hates Jews) HE IS THE
>JEWS WORST ENEMY. And if you need some expansion on that, you have only to
>ask.
He's not the jews' worst enemy because he's not one of them. That
'honour' belongs to Mouth.
<b'rissed>
Deborah Sharavi
El Bleacho wrote:
>You gave me hearsay. I just want facts.
You received both.
>Show me IDF documents.
Yeah, right. Like IDF documents will back YOUR assertion that Moshe
Dayan "saved Judaism"? How, exactly, did Dayan "save Judaism"?
>I want to see how you said he failed to execute his responsibilities correctly.
Liar. I never said he failed to execute his responsibilities correctly.
>>It has NOTHING to do with the subject. I gave you references to
>>military commanders from 1948, who were far more qualified than you to
>>make judgements concerning Dayan's actions - or lack thereof -and
>>they found him wanting.
>People with an agenda.
Dayan DIDN'T have an agenda?
>Why can't you just post links to IDF reports and
>analysis of his actions during combat?
Yeah, right. Ever heard of "books"?
>>>The fact that I am here today and not a pile of ashes somewhere is
>>>proof positive of the bravery of Moshe Dayan.
>>The fact that we come closest to a nuclear confrontation with the
>>Soviets in 1973 is proof positive of Dayan's actions.
>ROFL. USSR wanting a direct line of oil from Middle East through
>Afghanestan is Dayan's fault?!?!??! Is Cuba Missile Crisis also Dayan's
>fault?!?!?!
You are being dense.
>>>I do not subscribe to hearsay.
>>Or facts either, it seems.
>You have yet to present one single fact.
I have presented nothing but facts, and the location of those facts for
you to verify.
>I have given you ample opportunity
>to give links to any published reports that the IDF generated on any of
>Dayan's commands.
The facts can be found in small rectangular objects known as
"books". These objects are usually found in retail stores which
specialize in the sale thereof, known as "book stores", or in
special repositories known as "libraries". Look them up. You have
the authors and their works.
>>Mazal tov. Did you serve in 1948?
>Did you serve anywhere, at any time? If so, where/when? Come on now,
>liar; here is where the rubber meets the road. Bases, CO's, MOS's,
>assignments, deployments. Where and when did you serve in the US and/or
>Israeli military, Deborah?
LOL! Obviously, in your cosmology, no one who didn't serve under
Harry of Monmouth should be permitted to address the Harfleur campaign.
>>You haven't caught any lies, since I didn't lie. You have lied
>>several times.
>You are projecting, liar.
<yawn> When are you going to produce some evidence for your assertion
that Moshe Dayan "saved Judaism"? How, exactly, did Dayan - your
personal "Superman" - "save Judaism"?
>>No, you didn't. You failed there, as you failed all through this
>>thread to produce anything on what Dayan did in 1948 beyond your
>>cut'n'paste job from one or another of your three encyclopedias.
>>Too bad you've gone into hysterics because your cherished hero
>>wasn't so heroic as you imagined. At your age, you should be able to
>>deal with it.
>I am not now, nor have I ever been hysterical; liar.
Then you are doing an awfully good imitation of hysterics. In fact,
your entire post is nothing but hysterics.
>You should stop with
>your projections. Tell me about your military training, Deborah. Tell
>me all about how that training makes you uniquely qualified to discern if
>Moshe Dayan was a competant or incompetant strategist, and/or competant or
>incompetant warrior.
It's you who are projecting here, or else you have a serious reading
comprehension disorder. I never stated Dayan was a "competant or
incompetant strategist, and/or competant or incompetant warrior."
When do you plan to explain how, exactly, Dayan "saved Judaism"?
>_____________________
>I am hung like Einstein;
>and as smart as a horse!
You got that last right, at least.
Deborah
Deborah Sharavi
>I have read more than I can recite on the wars of 1948, 1967, and 1973;
>and certainly know Dayan's place in history.
Really? If that is the case, you have taken wondrous pains to conceal
it.
>I have read what he authored;
>though not the other propaganda you posted in your islamic link.
>But back to you for a second; please tell me about your military experience
>and about your religion. Were you raised Jewish? Are you now Jewish? If
>so, where did you go to Hebrew School and Jewish Summer Camp. Did they
>talk about Moshe Dayan there? How did your parents speak of Dayan?
>Your military career - did you serve in the IDF or US Armed Forces? If
>so, what did you do during your military career? Did you ever study
>military strategy when you were in the military? What military actions were
>you involved in? Gulf War I or II? Libya bombing? Panama? Afghanistan?
What a load of balls. Apparently, in your cosmology, no one who didn't
live in the 15thC is competent to address the subject of the Wars of
the Roses. And no one who didn't serve under Alexander should be
allowed to write about him. LOL!
When did Dayan "save Judaism", as you claimed? What did he to "save
Judaism", and when did this happen?
Deborah
Deborah Sharavi
>news:_nCFe.856$aT1...@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
>>outside of bizarre hatred of Dayan;
The Department of Defense wrote:
>She never said that, come on and be fair.
Nope. He was a complex personality, and is endlessly interesting. Also,
now and then, I feel sorry for him.
>She is just pointing out that some of his exploits are overhyped.
Very overhyped, when not invented. Like his "saving Judaism,"
whenever he did that. If he did that.
Care for some facts on his early life?
Deborah
The Department of Defense
"Deborah Sharavi" <dsha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1122489530....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Only if you have them handy.
Deborah Sharavi
>news:1122489530....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Department of Defense wrote:
>Only if you have them handy.
Oh, goody, now I can do something with my notes, since I don't
remember what I was going to do with them originally.
I'll start with the parents, since what they went through is a small
view of what thousands endured.
Warning: there's very little military action in the begining. Mostly,
it's a brief rundown of conditions that obtained in Palestine at the
time. If interested, check out the books I utilized, which give a far
wider picture.
It will probably have to be in several parts, if that's okay by you.
OK?
Deborah
The Department of Defense
Okie Dokie.
James
"Deborah Sharavi" <dsha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1122489530....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
soldier in the IDF is a hero because there would be no Israel if it were not
for them. Some may have done more heroic deeds than others but every single
one of them has the right to be proud. So I am going to just forget the
negative stuff and remember him as a great man and a hero.
--
We must never forget that on Sept.12, 2001, Israel's flags were flying at
half-staff and the Palestinians were dancing in the streets.
Deborah Sharavi
>>OK?
The Department of Defense wrote:
>Okie Dokie.
Goody. Glad I can do something with some of my notes. Maybe I'll even
remember what I was going to do with them originally.
Start with the parents.
Dayan doesn't state in his autobiography that they were the actual
founders of Deganyah; the language he uses implies such, but if you
read closely, it's not what he says. Deganyah was founded in 1908 by
Yosef Baratz, his wife, and ten other men and women. Eliyahu and Shmuel
Dayan immigrated to Israel later that same year from Djeskov, near
Kiev. (Deborah Zatulovsky, Dayan's mother, didn't immigrate until
1913.)
Djeskov was a poor village comprised of Jewish merchants who sold fish,
farm implements, and shoes to the peasants, and kept largely to
themselves. The Dayans were among the poorer Jews in town, and three
generations lived under one roof. The father, Avraham, failed at failed
as a shopkeeper, a grocer, a raisin wine seller, and eventually became
an itinerant cart peddler, aided by his two oldest sons, Eliyahu and
Shmuel. In 1908, when Shmuel was 18, the brothers left.
In Israel, they encountered unemployment, lack of work, and competition
for the few farming jobs available from Arabs, who were more skilled.
>From 1908 to 1911, Shmuel worked the fields of the coastal moshavot,
mostly in Petakh Tiqva, the "mother of Jewish settlements", binding
wheat sheaves, digging irrigation ditches, building houses, picking
fruit, and suffering several bouts of malaria. He also found time to
delve into public affairs (such as there were), helping to sponsor a
meeting in Ein Ganim to raise support for the HaPo'el HaTza'ir
newspaper, and walking barefoot to Jaffa to deliver cash they had
raised.
Eventually he purchased a Turkish horse pistol and headed to Yavne'el
in the Lower Galilee; for six months, he ploughed, sowed, reaped, and
threshed for approximately six months on the farm of one of the
founders, Shmuel Peicovitch, whose younger brother, Reuven, owned a
400-dunam farm in nearby Meskha. Shmuel wrote (in The Promsied Land, p
16): "I burst into song. Here I was ploughing the soil of the Land of
Israel. What more could I want?"
(Ah, youth. Ben-Gurion waxed even more lyrical in his letters home.
When his family compared them to letters of others, who wrote of
endlessly hard work, and people suffering, and dying, from malaria,
Ben-Gurion admitted he'd romanced the situation. A tad.)
[Note: Meskha was the second village where members of the Bar Giora
group were employed to guard the fields against Arab marauders. Bar
Giora was the nucleus of Hashomer, which eventually evolved into the
Hagana, which became Israel's army in 1948.]
In 1911, Shmuel joined Deganyah as a hired hand. At the time, the
kvutsa consisted of two stone buildings: one, a two-storey building
where the everyone lived, the other a one-storey kitchen-dining
room-bakery-storehouse and shower. The members of the kvutsa set the
group above the individual, extolled egalitarianism and collective
decision-making, and the majority favored abandoning their past
wanderings developing tracts of land, staying put and making Deganyah a
model for future Jewish development. Shmuel Dayan was of the minority
which favored sticking to the itinerant life.
Deborah Zalutovksy emigrated from Prochorovka. Her father, Yehiel
Ze'ev Zalutovsky, owned a lumberyard on the Dneiper and had written a
book on Jewish defence efforts in the Ukraine during the pogroms of the
17thC. The town had only one Jewish family: the Zalutovskys. In 1905,
when she was fifteen, Deborah joined the Narodniki in protest against
the depradations of tsarist regime. In 1908, after graduating from a
Xian girls' gymnasium, she enrolled in the University of Kiev,
majoring in Russian literature, which she loved. In 1909, she served
briefly as a nurse in Bulgaria, which had just attacked the Ottoman
Empire in the course of the interminable Balkan Wars. Against her
parents' wishes, she sailed for Palestine in January 1913, and made
for Sejera, and thence Deganyah.
She had problems adjusting to the lifestyle; she had little affection
for the hard work and congeniality essential for model communal life;
she was unenraptured with the endless philosophizing, Zionism, and
remaking oneself into a New Jew. She esteemed Russian culture and
literature, which no one else did, spoke neither Hebrew nor Yiddish;
after she was rejected for membership, she went to Sejera, where she
fell ill at the end of the year with malaria and a severe ear
infection.
Shmuel was also suffering from a chronic nose and ear infection. In
December 1913, he borrowed money from his older brother and sailed from
Haifa to Trieste to Vienna for medical treatment. In January, Deborah
left for Odessa and Prochorovska to be with her parents and Shmuel.
"But we shall not abandon the land," he wrote her, "for without
work on the land there is no pleasure in our lives."
To travel into Imperial Russia, and avoid tsarist police Shmuel
acquired a fake passport. This was necessary because in 1910, he had
failed to report for military service, the penalty for which was a
severe fine to the family of the draft dodger. He traveled under an
assumed name, and walked 19 miles from Djeska to Prochorovska. Deborah
had hoped to meet him in Djeska, but her parents refused their
permission. In July 1914, she sailed with Shmuel back to Haifa, again
over her parents' protests, and they were married in autumn 1914 by
the shochet from Menahamiya.
Their oldest son was born 20th May 1915 (or, in some accounts, 4th May
1915). He was named for a son of Deganyah's founder, Yosef Barasky,
who had volunteered to get medicine for Shmuel's ailments. Enroute
with the medicine, the teenager was shot and killed by Arabs. The
newborn Moshe was described as a howler, and his mother took him to
the Jordan in the evenings so his screaming wouldn't disturb the
others. In the summer of the following year, while all Palestine
suffered from the harsh rule of Djemal Pasha in the first years of WWI,
mother and child both contracted trachoma. Nearly blind from her own
bout, Deborah traveled across the countryside in a cart in search of
medical treatment for her infant, whose welfare came first.
In the summer of 1918, as WWI was drawing to a close, Moshe came down
with pneumonia, as did several of the children of the kvusta; the
Asienkorps and the Ottoman army had commandeered the kvutsa, and the
children had been sleeping in the unheated outbuildings with their
parents since winter. She took him to Tiberias, to Metulla, thence
home. En route, their wagon broke down. She carried the child twelve
miles through fields to Rosh Pina. En route, she fainted from the heat,
and came to in a house, on a cold stone floor, being sprinkled with
water by a woman. When they returned to Deganyah, it was even more
dangerous to move around the countryside, as the remnants of the
Ottoman Army and the Asienkorps were retreat from the British under
Allenby, whose final offensive against the Ottomans was about to
commence. By that time, starvation was rampant in the Galilee; over
30,000 Jews had already perished, and more than three times that number
of Arabs. The British took over the most wretched and ravaged land in
the entire soon-to-be-defunct Ottoman Empire.
Early in 1919, Deborah managed to obtain treatment for herself and her
son in Jerusalem. She remained at the Rothschild Hospital several
months, while Moshe was treated at Dr Aryeh Feingold's Ophthalmic
Hospital. In the summer of 1919, they returned to Deganyah, which, to
accommodate a fresh influx of Jews fleeing the civil war in Russia, had
decided to split into Deganyah Alef and Deganyah Bet.
The early days of the split were rough. Shmuel and several of his
cronies had meanwhile tired of the collective life, and wanted more
privacy in their personal lives. In June 1919 Shmuel attended a
HaPo'el HaTza'ir convention in Kinneret, which resolved to
establish the first moshav, or cooperative village.
In April 1920, at the time of the Bloody Passover massacres in
Jerusalem, it was rumored that Arabs were plotting to attack the Jordan
Valley moshavot. On 24th April, a mob of Arabs attacked Deganyah Bet.
The defenders had no option but to retreat. Shmuel Dayan poured
kerosene on the wall of a wooden building and set it on fire. From
Deganyah Alef, four-year-old Moshe watched the flames consume the
structure without understanding what was happening. The father
bitterness over their retreat was sharpened when he learned that only
ten defenders had saved Menahamiya from Arab attackers. One of
Dayan's strongest memories remained Deganyah Bet in flames, and his
father and the other defenders retreating. In time, the image of the
conflagration sharpened as a costly lesson in how NOT to fight Arabs.
While waiting for approval of funding for the new moshav by the 12th
Zionist Congress, which was scheduled to meet in September 1919, the
Dayans moved to Tel Aviv. Shmuel worked in the agricultural center of
Hapo'el HaTza'ir, while Deborah delivered letters for the Missing
Persons Bureau to hard-to-find new immigrants. Later, both parents took
jobs on the Haifa-Nazareth road, breaking rocks into smaller stones and
gravel. In the morning, Moshe attended kindergarten. In the evening,
his father locked him in the apartment while the parents attended
political meetings. When the child broke several windows trying to get
out, the father whipped him.
The 12th Zionist Congress allotted less than had been hoped for the new
collective (32,000 Egyptian pounds). The site was a hill called Mahlul
some miles from Nazareth at the west end of the approach to the
Jezre'el. Previously, German Jews had tried to found an agricultural
settlement there, but most soon died, and the few survivors left. A
group of Arabs moved in next, and suffered the same fate. On 20th
September, Shmuel brought Deborah and Moshe from Haifa by train, then
on foot, each of the parents taking turns carrying the child, who was
suffering another of his recurrent fevers. The Dayans and the others
spent their first night where Israel's first moshav, Nahalal, would
be built, not lighting fires and speaking in whispers to avoid Arab
attacks. 21 pioneers set up seven tents, plus a kitchen and a dining
hall in a hut. The first general meeting lasted three days; a
seven-member village council was elected, and the principles of the
moshav resolved: they would live by their own labor, speak only Hebrew,
help one another in times of need.
When it was rumored that Arabs planned to attack the tent village to
mark the fourth anniversary of the Balfour Declaration, the women and
children were sent to Nazareth, where they remained until May of the
following year. Moshe attended school in Nazareth, where he showed a
marked talent for art and a rich imagination. He was also still
homesick for Deganyah, missed his friends, and used to go to the main
road to watch the few cars go by.
By spring 1922, the moshav had 80 families; the Dayan cottage had a
living room, two bedrooms, a porch, a kitchen with a bathtub, and an
outhouse; while the Dayans acquired less than esteemed status amongst
the other families, who regarded them as slightly disreputable.
===========================
Well, that's outrageously simplified, but I hope it conveys something
of how rough it was -- and, by extension, how rough life was in Russia
for Jews that they would put up with their new existence.
Continue?
Deborah
Norma
Please do continue, Deborah. Fascinating stuff.
Norma
>
Mickey
Dayan was a great administrator, a terrific public speaker, and the best
front man any army ever had. He was a competent military man, but more than
anything for his ability to delegate.
Mickey
hille...@yahoo.com
> I have read more than I can recite on the wars of 1948, 1967, and 1973;
> though not the other propaganda you posted in your islamic link.
OK, let's talk about what was published in Hebrew.
E.g. the book "The Yom kippur War - Moment of Truth" by Bergman and
Meltzer, ISBN 965-511-597-6. I give free translation from Hebrew,
feel free to read the original and compare. My comments are given
in (..... hg)
Page 37, about October 5, 1973. Dado wanted to "concentrate forces and
give warnings." Dayan's command was "Don't move forces, unless it
really
starts." It was Dayan's fault that less than a thousand soldiers tried
to stop the Egyptian attack on their own, and so Egypt had enough time
to establish bridgeheads.
Page 45, a meeting on October 6, in the morning.
Dado said: "I would make a general draft (calling all reserves, hg),
so all the world will know that we are ready to war."
Dayan: "The world will believe that we are ready even if we will not
draft anybody."
Page 70: about October 7. The Israeli airforce was ready for operation
"Tagar" of destroying the anti aircraft missles, and started to execute
that. Dayan called *directly* to the airforce commander and told him
to concentrate of the Syrian armor. Bergman and Meltzer said that the
"The instruction of the defense minister was deadly," and give several
reasons. "The Israeli airforce lost in the day the largest number in
on day of fighting, 22 planes." Dr. Elchanan Oren from the IDF history
department summarized that as "in retrospect it seems that the Matcal
(IDF headquarters, hg) did not operate the airforce in a meaningful
way in that day."
In page 92 the authors explained this point by quotes from Colonel
Gorion, who was the third in command in a airforce fleet:
"The problem was changing tasks and mood of the those who made the
decisions."
.............................................................
"And then Dayan tells him go bomb the missles in the north. Peled
(the airforce commander, hg.) answered that all our intelligence,
all the preparation flights, the electronic warefare and the rest
of the operation was done only to the south, and nothing is ready in
the north. No updated knowledge, no intelligence, no preparation
flights (RF-4, hg), no nothing. It did not help. When Peled heard
the words (from Dayan, hg) 'Third House destruction' he made the
decision not the change our attack plans (in the north, hg) and
that was his failure."
In page 79 you can read about Dayan's talk after he lost his hubris.
"What I am afraid most deeply in my heart? That in the end the state
of Israel will not have enough weapons to defend itself."
In page 132, about October 9, Dayan said: "Next morning we will
present to the government a clear picture. In this stage the
government does not know anything about the Maozs (the front line
positions in the south, hg) and the causalties." Dayan did not
carry his duty to update the government earlier.
In page 136 Dayan talk with the Generals is covered, he uses
"Masada Battle" again.
In page 293 the authors give their view of Dayan: "as in all other
days Dayan showed very active invlovement in the battlefield. In
some cases, against the law and the regulations, he gave direct
orders to commander in the field, as a super-chief-of-stuff above
Dado."
In page 341 there is another case when Dayan jumped in. Genegral
Gorodish drafted, with permission, two journalists to record what
was going on. He probably knew that he would be blamed, and tried
to have a "real time" recording by a third party. Dayan met the
journalists, and "Dayan very disliked the idea that journalists
record for the army, with permission." Two hours later the assignment
was canceled.
Anyway, the point with Dayan that he had several good properties;
he was brave, resourceful and charismatic. But he also had several
bad points: he was lazy, full of hubris, lawless and no sense of
morality. The hubris, and braveness, cost him his eye. He had
to look around instead of lying low.
But the real issue was the preparation of the army. In 1967 Eshkol
prepared the army; he made correct decisions of buying old tanks
and new planes. Dayan could buy many more of those old tanks, for
the metal price, in the early 1970's. He did not. His hubris and
lazyness prevented him from preparing the army to war and caused
him the make the wrong decisions in critical times. He was unfit
for his job as a defense minister.
> But back to you for a second; please tell me about your military
> experience and about your religion.
What the point?
I was too young to fight in 1973, but I was old enough to hear what
the fighters said. They did not like Dayan. Ashkenazy's (the
commander
of Maoz Budapest) demand to fire Dayan was pretty popular between
the fighters; they hated Dayan's guts.
>How did your parents speak of Dayan?
My father was in the Palmach, and shared the opinions of his friends
about Dayan. My parents admired Alon and hated Dayan. My mother
thought that Alon should have been the commander in 1967 and blamed
Galili's dirty dealing for getting Dayan instead. She also claimed
that in 1948 in one of the battles of Jerusalem, that failed, Dayan
was the commander. After the battle Dayan had a lot of bad words
to say. One of the sub-commanders responded in a question where Dayan
had been in the time of the battle; the commander had tried to contact
him for several hours and failed. Dayan's answer was "those who need
to
know, know." The rumor was that he was busy fucking somebody.
I have no idea if the story is true, I did not see it in any history
book,
but it certainly fits Dayan.
> Your military career - did you serve in the IDF or US Armed Forces?
I was not a fighter, but I worked pretty hard in the IDF.
I left Israel after my reserve duty was raised, with the defense
minister permission, to 60 days per year. I did not see why I had
to work hard just because the officers had no clue how to use
man power, so they just wasted it. (Yes I am "Nefolet shel Nemushot.")
> Did you ever study military strategy when you were in the military?
No.
>What military actions were
> you involved in? Gulf War I or II? Libya bombing? Panama? Afghanistan?
What is your point?
Why argue people and not facts?
Hillel hille...@yahoo.com
"In science and mathematics it doesn't matter who speaks, only what is
said."
-- Thomas Sherwood ("Ossian's ride", Fred
Hoyle)
Deborah Sharavi
>Please do continue, Deborah. Fascinating stuff.
>Norma
OK, but that's all for today. More tomorrow.
Left off with the Dayans' somewhat disreputable reputation.
This was acquired due to Shmuel's fascination with, and attempts to
engage in, politics, which a majority of the moshavniks held to be the
most unworthwhile of pursuits. He felt suffocated by life in Nahalal,
did not find farm life stimulating, and dreamed to escape; he was away
from home oftener and oftener on errands for the labor movement, and,
in the process, invested little time in helping run the household, and
ignored his responsibilities to the farm, leaving them to his wife and
young son.
The father's absence was felt. Vegetables rotted in the fields, one
and a half tons of grain went unsold, and the mother had to borrow
money to pay for seeds and medicines. She wrote Shmuel that there were
no clothes for the children (two more children were born, Aviva on 21st
February 1922, who killed herself in November 1967, and Zohar on 8th
April 1926, who was murdered by Mufti gangs in 1948). The letters fell
on deaf ears. Her oldest son felt sorry for her, but deeply admired the
"noble manner with which she carried her burdens". He was also
deeply grateful to her for her literary interests, her intellectual
curiosity, and her love of reading. He was also stubborn, and once,
when he was five, his father locked him in the chicken coop as a
punishment. The coop was dark, jackals prowled outside, and the boy
shivered from the cold. Although he was frightened, he did not give in,
and after several hours, Shmuel released him "without my obeying
him."
There was little, if any, rapport between father and son. Moshe had
little respect for his father's mind, and thought he spent too much
time spouting truisms and nattering on about nonsensical formulas. The
mother, however, was open to discussion and debate. She had a good
mind, a great love of literature, and a talent for writing; she had
come to Israel thinking herself a Russian revolutionary, yet devoted
herself to the farm and her children and their troubles. She continued
to press Shmuel to return home, even from America, where he'd gone to
preach Zionism to American Jews. Fed up by the late 20s with his
absences, she admitted she had little chance of ever fulfilling her
intellectual ambitions. Later, she wrote "My Immigration" for Dvar
HPo'elet, the working women's paper. The editors offered her a
post, which she excepted, even though it meant leaving the children at
home when she traveled to Tel Aviv for meetings.
In school, Dayan believed he knew better than others what was right,
and was not afraid to say so. Even so, he had trouble expressing
himself, coming off as disorganized and confused. His schoolmates were
unimpressed, and thought he was more concerned for himself than others;
so, they ganged up on him, beat him up, and periodically refused to
speak to him. He was a decent student, but excelled at art and showed a
distinct flair for writing, which, no doubt, annoyed his schoolmates
even more. Dostoyevsky was a favorite; Crime & Punishment was Dayan's
favorite of Dostoyevsky's works.
He was friendly with the local Arabs. When his friend Wahash of the
al-Mazarib clan showed interest in Jewish farming methods, Dayan showed
him around the moshav. "Look," Shmuel told his son. "They have
the eyes of murderers." The friendship with Arabs didn't always
hold. When Moshe was twelve, and he and his friends were out riding,
they surprised Arabs driving their cattle to graze in Nahalal's
grainfields. Dayan drove his horse straight at the herd, scattering the
cattle in every direction. One of the Arabs dragged him from his horse,
and the other Arabs beat him. When his friends returned with help, they
found him on the ground, bloody and semi-conscious. "Don't get
excited," he told them. "Learn a lesson. Next time, we'll bring
sticks. They won't dare trespass on our land again."
After the murderous Arab massacres of 1929, the Hagana extended itself
to Nahalal and Dayan, then 14, joined the organization, together with
four other moshav teenagers, Nahman Betser, Avinoam Slutzky, Amnon
Yanni, and Dov Yermiya. Dayan was pleased and proud over his first
assignment, which was to stand guard as a sentry and warn the adults,
when the latter were in secret military training, if any British
approached. Two Nahalal moshavniks who had served in the Russian army
taught the five boys military equestrianship. When Arabs drove their
herds onto Nahalal pastureland, the five boys took off after them,
screaming and brandishing whips. The Arabs fled, leaving their flocks
behind.
The Hagana was taking defence matters seriously. By the early 1930s,
the rules had changed; trespassing disputes, formerly the dominant
source of conflict in the agrarian communities, had given way
politically motivated assaults on Jews, attacks fueled by Arab
nationalism, and the growing influence of Amin al-Husseini in Arab
politics. In December 1932, Arabs through a bomb into the home of the
Dayans' neighbor, Yosef Yaakobi. Yaakobi's eight year old son was
killed instantly; Yaakobi died of his wounds the following morning.
HaNoar HaOved, the Histadrut youth movement, attempted to organize a
chapter amongst the Nahalal youth. The latter, scorning it as a
movement for city kids, resisted. Yisrael Galili, one of the founders,
went to Nahalal, but got nowhere. (The movement had better luck with
city kids Yitzhak Rabin and Shimon Peres.) An article appeared in the
HaNoar HaOved publication, criticizing Nahalal youth as proponents of
"destructive negativism" and deficient in character and
public-spirit. Dayan rebutted the charges with an article of his own.
In his autobiography, Dayan gave an account of an innocuous encounter
with some Arabs while on a hike with his friends in September 1934.
Binyamin Zarbi gave a different version of the encounter. Their bedouin
guide warned them that "There is a blood revenge going on between
Arabs and Jews." Encountering the Arabs by the spring at iflik, Dayan
took out a camera and snapped a picture. Near Jericho, Arab police
became suspicious of the four boys, and beat up their beduin guide to
show them who was in charge. Deciding that the four were up to no good,
they were preparing to take them to Nablus, when Dayan said in Arabic
that they weren't doing anything wrong, and they wouldn't go to
Nablus. Then he asked one of the police his name. "Jabar." "Are
you related to the Jabar who works for the Nahalal police?" "Indeed
I am," said the Arab. "He is my brother." They shook hands,
exchanged pleasantries, and went on their way. At Kalya on the
northwest tip of the Dead Sea, a baker from Deganyah told them to drop
their plans to go beyond Sedom and go home. A group of Jewish hikers
heading along the same path had not been seen or heard of since passing
that way. The boys went to Jerusalem, Hebron, Beersheba, and Gaza,
where they were arrested, then released. In Tel Aviv, they recounted
the story of their trek to Zalman Shazar, assistant editor of Davar
(later president of Israel). Shazar wrote a story which appeared the
next day, 17th September. Dayan refused to have his picture taken,
because he had a large pimple on his chin.
By the end of 1934, the land had to be actively defended. The JNF had
purchased a large tract of land bordering the Wadi Shimron from the
Arab landowners. Jews building agricultural settlements were attacked
by the al Mazarib clan and Arabs from the nearby village. The Jews
fought back. Dayan and his comrades, sent by Hagana, joined the fracas.
In the course of one struggle, Dayan was clubbed on the head and
knocked unconscious. He was carried home to the Nahalal infirmary;
then, because the injury was so severe, taken to a convalescent home in
Jerusalem.
The next year, he married twice. The first time was to a German girl to
keep the British from deporting her back to Hitler's Germany; it was
at the insistence of his fiancee, Ruth Schwarz; Dayan and his "first
wife" met once, then divorced. The second time, it was to his fiancee,
Ruth Schwarz, daughter of prominent Zionists lawyers.
Continue?
Deborah
Deborah Sharavi
>>I have read more than I can recite on the wars of 1948, 1967, and 1973;
>>and certainly know Dayan's place in history. I have read what he authored;
>>though not the other propaganda you posted in your islamic link.
I've seen this incident in at least two history books, maybe more -
and I'm off to check them. Will have to get back to this.
Deborah
El Bleacho
> Don't take it all too personally and you will be fine. Quick question
> for you, why are Jews so hesitant to criticize their own?
We don't air our dirty laundry in public. That is always the best policy.
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