Poetry for the grumpy :>
Holly
Sonnet VI
Then let not winter's ragged hand deface
In thee thy summer, ere thou be distill'd:
Make sweet some vial; treasure thou some place
With beauty's treasure, ere it be self-kill'd.
That use is not forbidden usury,
Which happies those that pay the willing loan;
That's for thyself to breed another thee,
Or ten times happier, be it ten for one;
Ten times thyself were happier than thou art,
If ten of thine ten times refigured thee:
Then what could death do, if thou shouldst depart,
Leaving thee living in posterity?
Be not self-will'd, for thou art much too fair
To be death's conquest and make worms thine heir.
William Shakespeare
Holly
Lí Ban
>Sonnet VI
<snipped more of Master Shakespeare's misunderstood metre>
Grumpy??? The subjects pondered here are pussy and the begetting of a
half-score children.
Lí Ban
ICQ# 9143177
The Joiner from Bama
> Holly wrote:
> >Sonnet VI
>
> <snipped more of Master Shakespeare's misunderstood metre>
Holly, I post this for the benefit of those that don't have killfiles: Get a
fucking clue! soc.culture.irish! Not recipes or poetry or anything else you
happen to like. IRISH!
--
Pete Stuart
Holly
Lí Ban wrote in message
<96sf7ssgeleu9hrt5...@4ax.com>...
>Holly wrote:
>>Sonnet VI
>
> <snipped more of Master Shakespeare's misunderstood metre>
>
>Grumpy??? The subjects pondered here are pussy and the begetting of
a
>half-score children.
I read it differently.
Holly
Holly
The Joiner from Bama wrote in message
<3877FF11...@bellsouth.net>...
>
>
>> Holly wrote:
>> >Sonnet VI
>>
>> <snipped more of Master Shakespeare's misunderstood metre>
>
>Holly, I post this for the benefit of those that don't have
killfiles: Get a
>fucking clue! soc.culture.irish! Not recipes or poetry or anything
else you
>happen to like. IRISH!
Then why are you reading this post? If you know what a dreadful woman
I am, why haven't you killfiled me long ago. What interests me is the
amount of people that post off-topic which is everyone including
yourself that enjoy targeting me when wishing to expose their
condescending, self-righteous attitude. Bellsouth Net?? Jesus, is
anyone in this newsgroup actually in Ireland? You get a fucking clue.
Holly
The Joiner from Bama
> On Sat, 8 Jan 2000 23:09:59 -0700, "Holly" <holly...@prodigy.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Then why are you reading this post? If you know what a dreadful woman
> >I am, why haven't you killfiled me long ago.
I did. Unfortunately, my killfile doesn't allow me to filter out replies to
killfilees.
> >What interests me is the
> >amount of people that post off-topic which is everyone including
> >yourself
Cop on girl. It's a matter of quantity and quality. Click on the "sender" button
at the top of the newsreader, and count the number of posts you and I have each
made in the past few days. Notice anything? Now read through them, and see how
many had fuckall to do with things Irish, or were even in response to Irish
posters. Is a pattern emerging? Yeah, we all get off topic from time to time,
but some of us Yanks have learned to appreciate keeping things topical, and at
least make an effort to minimize irrelevance.
> that enjoy targeting me when wishing to expose their
> >condescending, self-righteous attitude.
Hardly self righteous. My views are backed by the accepted principles of
newsgroup posting, i. e., going to the appropriate newsgroup for the subject I
wish to post on. People come to sci to discuss Irish things, not to blather
about every fucking facet of their life. Just because you've made some friends
here, don't imagine everyone wants to hear your chitchat. The "living in
Ireland" posters here pay for online time by the minute, and not all have
killfile capabilities, so the recipes and Shakespeare cost them money. If you
turn this group into soc.gossip.fence.mindless.oprah.merican.yak.yak the Irish
will leave, and those of us that are here to delve into Irish culture will have
lost a great resource.
As for condescending, naw: just plain rude. But not nearly as rude, IMO, as
wasting the bandwidth of folks coming here to discuss Ireland.
> Bellsouth Net?? Jesus, is
> >anyone in this newsgroup actually in Ireland? You get a fucking clue.
Being Irish is not a prerequisite for posting here. Being interested in Ireland
and respecting netiquette should be. Don't jump into the race if you don't know,
and won't learn, how to drive the car.
--
Pete Stuart
The Joiner from Bama
salacious propriety wrote:
> My humble, prostate, everlasting apologies. THIS is how we sound to
> you guys? No wonder......
> I'm gonna go take a bromide.
Naw, it's just that she is the embodiment of off topic shite. Guys can be just
as bad. As with others over the years, myself included, she'll either learn,
leave, or live in killfiles.
--
Pete Stuart
Tony Cooper
> My humble, prostate, everlasting apologies.
*You* have a prostate? That makes you one up on Danielle.
--
Tony Cooper aka: Tony_Co...@yahoo.com
Madra Dubh
-Conway
--
"Never Turn Your Back On A Historian"
The Joiner from Bama wrote in message <3877FF11...@bellsouth.net>...
>> <snipped more of Master Shakespeare's misunderstood metre>
>
>Holly, I post this for the benefit of those that don't have killfiles: Get
a
>fucking clue! soc.culture.irish! Not recipes or poetry or anything else you
>happen to like. IRISH!
>--
>Pete Stuart
Bro
salacious propriety <Mille...@rivegauche.org> wrote in message
news:4ich7scdq4v3lqfhv...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 8 Jan 2000 23:09:59 -0700, "Holly" <holly...@prodigy.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >Then why are you reading this post? If you know what a dreadful woman
> >amount of people that post off-topic which is everyone including
> >condescending, self-righteous attitude. Bellsouth Net?? Jesus, is
> >anyone in this newsgroup actually in Ireland? You get a fucking clue.
>
>
> *ploink.*
>
> Ger, Unki, Eddie, Eala, Phil, Des, Heron, Aengus, Bren, (yes, Holly,
> they're ALL Irish and lots more if you'd bother to notice) et.al:
>
> My humble, prostate, everlasting apologies. THIS is how we sound to
> you guys? No wonder......
> I'm gonna go take a bromide.
>
I forgive you and I'm sorry for all the nasty stuff I said to you before,
jake. I just didn't realise how bad it could get.
bro
('cept you forgot me in the list, big bum)
Holly
Madra Dubh wrote in message
<85abe9$h9c$1...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>...
>Well, Holly, Mister Grumpy himself certainly read your post!
>-Conway
>
The computer genius I am just discovered filters! I've killfiled all
the shitheads which is very few. Poof. They don't exist. My blood
pressure has already dropped 15 pts.
You know. It's not what people say, it's how they say it that bothers
me. God knows I would try the patience of a Saint but I can listen to
reason. There is no reason in this world to intentionally hurt
anothers feelings. I poke a little fun sometimes but there are great
people here (they must be to put up with me) and I'd rather cut off my
right arm than make them feel bad about themselves. It's a small
person that belittles another.
And, the Shakespeare thing. For some reason I have a difficult time
finding Irish Poetry on the Web. I was looking for something seasonal
to post and when I started reading Shakespeare I got carried away. OK,
I went overboard but it's new to me and very exciting. If anyone would
like to write directly to me and explain if I misinterpreted, please
do so. :>
Holly
Doc Aay
> My humble, prostate, everlasting apologies. THIS is how we sound to
> you guys? No wonder......
I thought you were a girl.
Doc
Madra Dubh
their own mothers in mid winter.
Come Spring, they'll metamorphosize into humans once again. In the meantime,
post what you will and screw (figuratively) the lot of them.
-Conway
--
"Never Turn Your Back On A Historian"
Holly wrote in message <85acr2$3jlq$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>...
The Joiner from Bama
salacious propriety wrote:
> Heroic try, Pete. I'm sorry you started the car thing, however.
> Unless of course its a Cortina. (Red, of course) ;
Hey, just because the Irish don't have driver's licenses doesn't mean they don't have
cars. Now if they can just figure out how to use the damned things.
--
Pete Stuart
The Joiner from Bama
salacious propriety wrote:
> Oh what a little slip of the keystrokes can do. Next thing you know
> I'll be taking viagra, wondering why I've nothing to get up.
You can borrow mine (though it's a package deal).
--
Pete Stuart
Doc Aay
propriety <Mille...@rivegauche.org> wrote:
> Oh what a little slip of the keystrokes can do. Next thing you know
> I'll be taking viagra, wondering why I've nothing to get up.
>
> !salacious
>
Not unlike many of the men who post to this group.
Doc
kc...@bellsouth.net
> >~salacious said:
> > My humble, prostate, everlasting apologies.
>
> I thought you were a girl.
>
> Doc
>
Doc,
Even those without prostates can administer prostate apologies. And
under certain circumstances, nothing else will
do.
Dreamboat Skanky
icq 10020205
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Doc Aay
Huzzah!
Doc
Bro
Doc Aay <doc...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:G49e4.2818$v31.2...@ptah.visi.com...
> In article <j27i7s0anf81rc2gp...@4ax.com>, salacious
> propriety <Mille...@rivegauche.org> wrote:
>
>
> > On Sun, 09 Jan 2000 17:47:46 GMT, "Doc Aay" <doc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >>> My humble, prostate, everlasting apologies. THIS is how we sound to
> >>> you guys? No wonder......
> >>
> >>
> >
> > I'll be taking viagra, wondering why I've nothing to get up.
> >
> > !salacious
> >
>
> Not unlike many of the men who post to this group.
You trying to say that we can't spell either?
bro
That's a terrible attitude for a doctor btw. I hope I never have that kinda
problem and have to go to you to get laughed at instead of the clown I
normally have to explain things to.
Doc Aay
>> Not unlike many of the men who post to this group.
>
> You trying to say that we can't spell either?
>
> bro
> That's a terrible attitude for a doctor btw. I hope I never have that kinda
> problem and have to go to you to get laughed at instead of the clown I
> normally have to explain things to.
>
Of course I meant those who can't spell, what other?
While I might be able to help you at the end in question, my
professional specialty is at the other.
Doc "a clown?" Aay
Bro
I've forgotten the question now.
>
> Doc "a clown?" Aay
Ring Ring
Bro: Hello, I need an appointment to see the doctor some time this week,
like today.
Reception: There aren't any doctors available till next week.
Bro: Hello, I need an appointment to see the doctor some time this week,
like today.
Reception: If it's an emergency you should go to the hospital.
Bro: Hello, I need an appointment to see the doctor some time this week,
like today.
Reception: But the only one available is Doctor Clown.
Bro: 'groan'...... today?
Reception: He's free now.
Bro: Well... 'spose. I'll be there in 10 minutes.
Reception: Well, if you're sure...
....
Dr. Clown: Hello, take a seat.
Bro: Tha....
Dr. Clown: Just hold on a second while I finish off this little procedure
with the old computer, please.
(Moves mouse, taps keyboard.) Uh huh, yeeeeesss....... uh huh.......damn....
(Throws mouse across desk.) I'm gonna beat that thing one of these days.
Bro: Hah.
Dr. Clown: Now, and you are.... (retrieves mouse) ..hm, it's here somewhere.
Bro: Bro.
Dr. Clown: Ah yes, Mr. Bro. Are you anything to the Donaghadee Bro's?
Bro: No.
Dr. Clown: Nice people. I went to school with the old fella, you know,
lovely man. Had a great place out in Marbella. Great golfer.
Bro: I've got this pain in my neck, here.
Dr. Clown: Not a problem. Gargle some bicarbonate of soda in lukewarm water,
you'll be fine. Anything else?
Bro: I haven't got a sore throat. I have a pain in my neck, here.
Dr. Clown: Well, I can't give you anything for it. The soda will do the
trick.
Bro: It's more kinda swollen and painful on one side of my neck, here.
Dr. Clown: Just because you've got a little pain doesn't mean I can
necessarily do anything about it.
Bro: Give me some antibiotics.
Dr. Clown: Antibiotics aren't the answer to everything.
Bro: I want some.
Dr. Clown: Well, I'll give you some, but you'd be better off gargling some
bicarbonate of soda in lukewarm water.
Bro: I'll do that too.
Dr. Clown: Excellent. (Stands up from seat for first time and opens door)
Come back in 6 weeks and let me know how you got on.
Bro: Fuckin clown.
bro, not exaggerating at all
Doc Aay
<b...@weedaveshouse.f9.nospam.co.uk> wrote:
(snipped clown story)
> Bro: Fuckin clown.
>
>
>
> bro, not exaggerating at all
>
Not a wee bit at all?
Doc "love 'socialized' medicine" Aay
Bro
> In article <85cbh3$g0b$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Bro"
> <b...@weedaveshouse.f9.nospam.co.uk> wrote:
>
> (snipped clown story)
>
> > Bro: Fuckin clown.
> >
> >
> >
> > bro, not exaggerating at all
> >
>
> Not a wee bit at all?
I whispered the 'fuckin clown' bit.
bro
Holly
salacious propriety wrote in message ...
>On Sun, 09 Jan 2000 17:47:46 GMT, "Doc Aay" <doc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>>~salacious said:
>>> My humble, prostate, everlasting apologies. THIS is how we sound
to
>>> you guys? No wonder......
>>
>>
>>I thought you were a girl.
>
>Oh what a little slip of the keystrokes can do. Next thing you know
>I'll be taking viagra, wondering why I've nothing to get up.
>
>!salacious
Who is clueless now? And, what the hell does this have to do with
Ireland. Practice what you preach.
Holly
K. E. Dennis
> For some reason I have a difficult time
> finding Irish Poetry on the Web.
Try:
CELT: Corpus of Electronic Texts
http://www.ucc.ie/celt/index.html
The Irish Poetry Page
http://www.spinfo.uni-koeln.de/~dm/eire.html
British & Irish Poetry sites
http://www2.bath.ac.uk/~exxdgdc/lynx/lynx17.html
Medieval Irish poetry bibliography & links!
http://www.dnaco.net/~mobrien/irishptr/biblio.html
The Aisling [contemporary Irish poetry]
http://home1.inet.tele.dk/jenskoch/aisling/aisling.htm
HTH.
respectfully submitted,
|K. E. Dennis den...@mail.montclair.edu
|My employer is not responsible for my opinions,
|regardless of how sensible they are.
K. E. Dennis
> [...] Yeah, we all get off topic from time to time,
> but some of us ... at least make an effort to minimize irrelevance.
>
> [...] the accepted principles of
> newsgroup posting, [is to find ]the appropriate newsgroup for the subject [...]
> The "living in
> Ireland" posters here pay for online time by the minute, and not all have
> killfile capabilities, so the recipes and Shakespeare cost them money.
[snipped remainder]
Altho IMHO you've summarized the case pretty fairly, Pete, I feel obligated to point
out that neither recipes nor Shakespeare [see
http://www.wwa.com/~abardubh/poetry/kdpoem19.html] are inherently off-topic in
s.c.i..
However, it would be nice if some effort put in to making that relevance apparent to
others. We could talk about Shakespeare's various mentions of Ireland & the Irish
["What ish my nation?"]..... how they reveal something about the Elizabethan/Tudor
concept of society & of culture, the self & the 'alien', the 'civilised' & the
'savage'.... or about how his plays &/or poetry have influenced various Irish
writers.... & be perfectly on-topic.
Yes, Holly, everyone here posts off-topic now & again. [There is a perfectly good
case to be made, for example, that *all* of my recent posts were off-topic, despite
one or two bows in the direction of Irish genetics.] A lot of people - especially
Americans - have been flamed for it, some far more ferociously than you, I have to
say. (Just ask Sue.)
Pete's mentioned some of the reasons. It's as a courtesy to others - especially
those in Ireland & other countries (indeed, most other than the U.S.) - where local
calls & thus internet connectivity is metred, that people are exhorted to "snip,
dammit" & asked "& this has *what* to do w/ Ireland?"
I it's also that s.c.i. is an exceptionally busy ng. In just 2 wks - @ the holiday
season! - almost 5500 messages have been posted here. That's daunting to
contemplate, & it's deeply frustrating to wade thru scores of posts that have *no*
relevance @ all to Irish society & culture - & then see the author[s] saying "I'll
post anything I want to," & "I don't have to read the FAQ, don't read me if you
don't like it!"
That's when you cross the invisible line into being defined as a troll. Some folks
will tell you that gently & politely, some bluntly & even obscenely, but either way
it's true.
If you don't wish to be viewed that way, it makes sense to take note of the fact
that repeatedly posting off-topic, w/ *no* discernible reference to conversations or
topics currently under discussion, can make others view you as anti-social &
odd.... if not deliberately rude & provocative.
People who are *usually* on topic, or @ least seem to try, will be cut a lot of
slack in this ng when they, say, post a poem even by a non-Irish author just because
it made their toes curl to read it. [I stole that particular phrase from Eala, of
course.]
I don't say everyone necessarily will appreciate the effort - but it won't typically
attract complaints.
BTW: Carrie [Lí Ban] is correct. Sonnet VI exhorts the beloved to beget children,
& is rife w/ sexual _double entendre_ . Read it over a few times - you'll see.
Holly
K. E. Dennis wrote in message
<387A67BB...@mail.montclair.edu>...
>Holly wrote:
>
>> For some reason I have a difficult time
>> finding Irish Poetry on the Web.
>
>Try:
>
>CELT: Corpus of Electronic Texts
>http://www.ucc.ie/celt/index.html
>
>The Irish Poetry Page
>http://www.spinfo.uni-koeln.de/~dm/eire.html
>
>British & Irish Poetry sites
>http://www2.bath.ac.uk/~exxdgdc/lynx/lynx17.html
>
>Medieval Irish poetry bibliography & links!
>http://www.dnaco.net/~mobrien/irishptr/biblio.html
>
>The Aisling [contemporary Irish poetry]
>http://home1.inet.tele.dk/jenskoch/aisling/aisling.htm
>
>HTH.
>
>respectfully submitted,
>
Thank you VERY much. :>
Respectfully accepted,
Holly
Madra Dubh
-Conway
--
"Never Turn Your Back On A Historian"
Holly
K. E. Dennis wrote in message
<387A6B84...@mail.montclair.edu>...
>relevance @ all to Irish society & culture - & then see the author[s]
saying "I'll
>post anything I want to," & "I don't have to read the FAQ, don't read
me if you
>don't like it!"
This was out of frustration to the rude communication not the purpose
of post.
>BTW: Carrie [Lí Ban] is correct. Sonnet VI exhorts the beloved to
beget children,
>& is rife w/ sexual _double entendre_ . Read it over a few times -
you'll see.
Well I goofed on this...I will read it again. Does the term "sonnet"
always mean it will be regarding a male/female relationship?
>
>respectfully submitted,
>
>|K. E. Dennis
Thank you. You are a gentleman and I appreciate the input.:>
Holly
The Joiner from Bama
"K. E. Dennis" wrote:
> Altho IMHO you've summarized the case pretty fairly, Pete, I feel obligated to point
> out that neither recipes nor Shakespeare [see
> http://www.wwa.com/~abardubh/poetry/kdpoem19.html] are inherently off-topic in
> s.c.i..
>
> However, it would be nice if some effort put in to making that relevance apparent to
> others.
Thank you, M'lady, for a moment I thought you were starting to split heirs.
> <snip a fine exhortation that makes me seem like Conan next to Helen of Troy>
Karen, we obviously were made for each other. Southern redneck meets high class New
Yawker kind of thing, with a mutual love for wordsmithery. Say the word and the Mrs. is
history. If it doesn't work out, we could always sell the book and movie rights to Erica
Jong and live in the lap of luxury.
> BTW: Carrie [Lí Ban] is correct. Sonnet VI exhorts the beloved to beget children,
> & is rife w/ sexual _double entendre_ . Read it over a few times - you'll see.
Nothing wrong with the Bard's willie, eh?
--
Pete Stuart
The Joiner from Bama
Holly wrote:
> Well I goofed on this...I will read it again. Does the term "sonnet"
> always mean it will be regarding a male/female relationship?
No, the sonnet is simply (?) a form of poetry, consisting of 14 lines, and a
limited rhyming scheme.
> >|K. E. Dennis
>
> Thank you. You are a gentleman and I appreciate the input.:>
FYI, the K is for Karen. Check Ger's page for more clues to this temptress.
--
Pete I can be human Stuart
Holly
The Joiner from Bama wrote in message
<387A85CF...@bellsouth.net>...
>
>
>Holly wrote:
>
>> Well I goofed on this...I will read it again. Does the term
"sonnet"
>> always mean it will be regarding a male/female relationship?
>
>No, the sonnet is simply (?) a form of poetry, consisting of 14
lines, and a
>limited rhyming scheme.
I was so confused at the "sonnets" being the same length. I thought
maybe something was wrong with the site and the pages were cut off.
They appeared to be complete but....Isn't that hilarious? Glad I
asked.
>
>> >|K. E. Dennis
>>
>> Thank you. You are a gentleman and I appreciate the input.:>
>
>FYI, the K is for Karen. Check Ger's page for more clues to this
temptress.
>--
The temptress part is of no interest but thanks for letting me know
this is Karen.
>Pete I can be human Stuart
I get on my own nerves quite frequently. Truce!
Holly
Holly
K. E. Dennis wrote in message
<387A6B84...@mail.montclair.edu>...
Pete just informed me you are female so I'm sorry I called you a
gentleman.
You are a wonderful lady. Thanks again.:>
Holly
Lulamae Sweeney
>
> He doesn't know our Jake. She is ALL woman.
> -Conway
>
Lulamae
Séimí mac Liam
Holly wrote in message <85dug6$3hl4$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>...
>saying "I'll
>>post anything I want to," & "I don't have to read the FAQ, don't read
>me if you
>>don't like it!"
>
>
>This was out of frustration to the rude communication not the purpose
>of post.
>
>
>beget children,
>>& is rife w/ sexual _double entendre_ . Read it over a few times -
>you'll see.
>
>always mean it will be regarding a male/female relationship?
>
>>
>>
>>|K. E. Dennis
>
>Thank you. You are a gentleman and I appreciate the input.:>
>
>
http://www.wwa.com/~abardubh/people/kedennis.html
Any thing I can do to be of help.
Saint Séimí mac Liam
Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
My eyes are hazel as well as my nuts"
Canonized December '99
The Joiner from Bama
Holly wrote:
> The Joiner from Bama wrote in message
>
> >No, the sonnet is simply (?) a form of poetry, consisting of 14
> lines, and a
> >limited rhyming scheme.
>
> I was so confused at the "sonnets" being the same length. I thought
> maybe something was wrong with the site and the pages were cut off.
> They appeared to be complete but....Isn't that hilarious? Glad I
> asked.
So much easier than using an encyclopedia, eh?
> >FYI, the K is for Karen. Check Ger's page for more clues to this
> temptress.
> >--
>
> The temptress part is of no interest but thanks for letting me know
> this is Karen.
Didn't want you to keep on insulting my next wife.
> Pete I can be human Stuart
>
> I get on my own nerves quite frequently. Truce!
Let's not get carried away now. Since everyone here loves and reveres me, it's
kinda nice having an enemy.
--
Pete Stuart
Madra Dubh
legged lawyers?
-Conway
(Unless, of course, one finds himself in durance vile and wants out)
--
"Never Turn Your Back On A Historian"
Lulamae Sweeney wrote in message <387AAD...@xerols.com>...
K. E. Dennis
> Holly wrote:
>
> > Well I goofed on this...I will read it again. Does the term "sonnet"
> > always mean it will be regarding a male/female relationship?
Certainly not in the case of Shakespeare!
> No, the sonnet is simply (?) a form of poetry, consisting of 14 lines, and a
> limited rhyming scheme.
Just ot elaborate slightly [which is my besetting sin, I know]: it's a tightly
designed poetic form, in which the last 2 lines are a rhyming couplet, one that
usually restates or caps the statement or ideas in the first 12. Those 12 may
follow several different rhyme schemes: sequences of alternating pairs, of
triplets, or of four line "verses."
It became a very popular form all over Europe in the late Renaissance/ Early
Modern period.
> > Thank you. You are a gentleman and I appreciate the input.:>
>
> FYI, the K is for Karen. Check Ger's page for more clues to this temptress.
Temptress?
Are you feeling a trifle feverish, Pete? Maybe it's this flu that's going
around?
respectfully submitted,
|K. E. "need a ginger toddy?" Dennis
K. E. Dennis
> "K. E. Dennis" wrote:
[snipped]
> Thank you, M'lady, for a moment I thought you were starting to split heirs.
Hang on, now I'm a trifle confused.... am I Solomon? A minute ago it was more like Sheba.
> Karen, we obviously were made for each other. Southern redneck meets high class New
> Yawker kind of thing,
I can't comment on the redneck appellation, Pete, but I have to tell you there's nothing
high class or high society about this New Yawker. Blue collar from way back. Just
over-educated, is all.
> with a mutual love for wordsmithery.
Now that, OTOH, is true.
> Say the word and the Mrs. is history.
Pete, I appreciate the offer, but my heart belongs to another.
Besides, we have one further thing in common: we both prefer women.
> If it doesn't work out, we could always sell the book and movie rights to Erica
> Jong and live in the lap of luxury.
{pauses a moment to consider this option, shakes herself vigorously, & regretfully declines}
It was tempting, but then you mentioned Erica Jong & I came to my senses.
> > BTW: Carrie [Lí Ban] is correct. Sonnet VI exhorts the beloved to beget children,
> > & is rife w/ sexual _double entendre_ . Read it over a few times - you'll see.
>
> Nothing wrong with the Bard's willie, eh?
Well, we have only *his* word for it, of course.... but he certainly knew how to raise the
temperature in the room.
[I can't begin to tell you how much self-control it requires not to post examples.... so
I'll just sneak in this URL:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/2012/poems/sonnet01.html ]
respectfully submitted,
|K. E. Dennis den...@mail.montclair.edu
K. E. Dennis
> Pete just informed me you are female so I'm sorry I called you a
> gentleman.
I've been called many worse things in my time, believe me. No need to
apologise.
Besides, you've just made a payment towards my dues for the Terry & Enda
Society [Pete will explain].
K. E. Dennis
> On Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:30:13 -0500, "K. E. Dennis"
> <den...@mail.montclair.edu> wrote:
>
> Snipped...........
>
> You have a lovely way with words. Truly. !
*blush*
This could really go to my head, you know, Eddie.
So, started the course yet?
respectfully submitted (while trying to change the subject),
Holly
The Joiner from Bama wrote in message
<387BC375...@bellsouth.net>...
>
>
>Holly wrote:
>> I get on my own nerves quite frequently. Truce!
>
>Let's not get carried away now. Since everyone here loves and reveres
me, it's
>kinda nice having an enemy.
>
A legend in your own mind......
Holly
The Joiner from Bama
"K. E. Dennis" wrote:
> The Joiner from Bama wrote:
> > No, the sonnet is simply (?) a form of poetry, consisting of 14 lines, and a
> > limited rhyming scheme.
>
> Just ot elaborate slightly [which is my besetting sin, I know]: it's a tightly
> designed poetic form, in which the last 2 lines are a rhyming couplet, one that
> usually restates or caps the statement or ideas in the first 12. Those 12 may
> follow several different rhyme schemes: sequences of alternating pairs, of
> triplets, or of four line "verses."
<gasp!!! falls to floor in startled heap> Do you give the Italian form no credence?
You are correct above in relation to the English sonnet, but there are major
differences from the Italian style: the first eight lines set the
question/problem/dilemma, and the last six resolve it. Also, the rhyming scheme is
much stricter. The octave is restricted to abbaabba, and the sestet, while more
variable, doesn't allow the last two lines to rhyme. The Italian form is the
symphony to which Willie and the Brits merely played Big Band.
> > FYI, the K is for Karen. Check Ger's page for more clues to this temptress.
>
> Temptress?
>
> Are you feeling a trifle feverish, Pete? Maybe it's this flu that's going
> around?
Probably just a case of wordlust.
--
Pete Stuart
Holly
Séimí mac Liam wrote in message ...
>
>Holly wrote in message
<85dug6$3hl4$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>...
>>
>http://www.wwa.com/~abardubh/people/kedennis.html
>
>Any thing I can do to be of help.
>
Enough culture there to keep me busy. Thanks, Jim. :>
Holly
The Joiner from Bama
"K. E. Dennis" wrote:
> The Joiner from Bama wrote:
>
> > Thank you, M'lady, for a moment I thought you were starting to split heirs.
>
> Hang on, now I'm a trifle confused.... am I Solomon? A minute ago it was more like Sheba.
I was afraid there was inherent danger in my pun.
> > Karen, we obviously were made for each other. Southern redneck meets high class New
> > Yawker kind of thing,
>
> I can't comment on the redneck appellation, Pete, but I have to tell you there's nothing
> high class or high society about this New Yawker. Blue collar from way back. Just
> over-educated, is all.
Serious question: is it possible to be over-educated?
> > Say the word and the Mrs. is history.
>
> Pete, I appreciate the offer, but my heart belongs to another.
>
> Besides, we have one further thing in common: we both prefer women.
Alas, at least I shall always have my dreams: you and I making wild, passionate love on a dusty
table in the rarely visited archival section of a library, screaming out long forgotten passages
from worn tomes while we write new epics of love in the grime of dead poets. Still, you would
probably just laugh at the size of my thesaurus, so let's just remember France.
> > If it doesn't work out, we could always sell the book and movie rights to Erica
> > Jong and live in the lap of luxury.
>
> {pauses a moment to consider this option, shakes herself vigorously, & regretfully declines}
>
> It was tempting, but then you mentioned Erica Jong & I came to my senses.
A woman of high moral fiber, eh? You're right, it would never work between us.
--
Pete I've got friends in low places Stuart
The Joiner from Bama
"K. E. Dennis" wrote:
> Besides, you've just made a payment towards my dues for the Terry & Enda
> Society [Pete will explain].
Sorry, as Terry will explain when/if she returns, using initials does not
qualify one for that prestigious rank. Hast thou forsaken the proper forms? Not
that Terry would mind you joining, just cause she's that sort of guy.
--
Pete Stuart
The Joiner from Bama
Holly wrote:
> A legend in your own mind......
Yours too if you stick around.
--
Pete Stuart
Lulamae Sweeney
>
Bucket!
No wait, make that a barrel!
Lulamae
Holly
The Joiner from Bama wrote in message
<387BFE3F...@bellsouth.net>...
>
>
>Holly wrote:
>
>> A legend in your own mind......
>
>Yours too if you stick around.
>--
You have some stiff competition here...it's going to take a lot of
fancy footwork.
Holly
Pat Naughton
> The Joiner from Bama wrote:
>>
>> Holly wrote:
>>
>> > A legend in your own mind......
>>
>> Yours too if you stick around.
>> --
>
> Bucket!
>
> No wait, make that a barrel!
>
> Lulamae
>
How about a butter churn?
Pat
K. E. Dennis
> "K. E. Dennis" wrote:
>
> [snip over-simplified expalnationof sonnet form]
>
> <gasp!!! falls to floor in startled heap> Do you give the Italian form no credence?
[solicitous voice]
You haven't bruised yourself too badly have you?
[/solicitous]
My apologies, sir - I was merely trying (for once) not to throw everything in @ once.
The Italian sonnet structure is indeed a thing of beauty & a joy... wait, sorry, wrong
form altogether... well, a really cool & admirable thing.
> [...] The Italian form is the
> symphony to which Willie and the Brits merely played Big Band.
IIRC, the Bard actually flirted w/ the Italian structure in one or more of the later
sonnets {making mental note to dig out Helen Vendler}, but then he *was* the
flirtateous sort.
respectfully submitted,
K. E. Dennis
> "K. E. Dennis" wrote:
>
> > Besides, you've just made a payment towards my dues for the Terry & Enda
> > Society [Pete will explain].
>
> Sorry, as Terry will explain when/if she returns, using initials does not
> qualify one for that prestigious rank.
My personal name has been used in threads all over s.c.i. during Holly's time here.
Besides, I applied as a Special Member & was formally acknowledged as such by the
TGOS herself.
> Hast thou forsaken the proper forms?
Wait - *this* is certainly not Italianate!
> Not
> that Terry would mind you joining, just cause she's that sort of guy.
Well, you will recall that Terry is <all kneel> The True Goddess of Science <all
rise> & thus among the presiding deities responsible for oversight of my ministry.
In short, we cut a backroom deal, which is about as Irish as you can get.
respectfully submitted,
|K. E. Dennis den...@mail.montclair.edu
|Minister of Science & Demonology
|Republic of S.C.I.
The Joiner from Bama
"K. E. Dennis" wrote:
> My apologies, sir - I was merely trying (for once) not to throw everything in @ once.
Thank god for that. I thought I'd found a hole in your armour big enough to drive a
Southern European country through.
> The Italian sonnet structure is indeed a thing of beauty & a joy... wait, sorry, wrong
> form altogether... well, a really cool & admirable thing.
I'll take the former. Might be the mathematician in me, but I get more enjoyment from
seeing a difficult form done well.
> IIRC, the Bard actually flirted w/ the Italian structure in one or more of the later
> sonnets {making mental note to dig out Helen Vendler}, but then he *was* the
> flirtateous sort.
A quick glimpse of the ending couplets of the 154 say no. Let me know what you find out.
A more topical question for you: did any Irish ever gain fame with sonnets of either form?
--
Pete Stuart
The Joiner from Bama
"K. E. Dennis" wrote:
> Besides, I applied as a Special Member & was formally acknowledged as such by the
> TGOS herself.
And who would ever nay say you (even w/o the sword)?
--
Pete Stuart
K. E. Dennis
> "K. E. Dennis" wrote:
>
> > The Italian sonnet structure is indeed a thing of beauty & a joy... wait, sorry, wrong
> > form altogether... well, a really cool & admirable thing.
>
> [....] Might be the mathematician in me, but I get more enjoyment from
> seeing a difficult form done well.
I know what you mean.
One of the things I've enjoyed most about getting acquainted w/ Irish poetry has been my
growing understanding [still rudimentary, tho] of the constraints & liberties of the
traditional Irish poetic forms - & then seeing how modern poets such as Heaney & Ní Dhomhnaill
play w/ those forms.
Much more interesting than many examples of free-form verse I've seen (but I can be fickle on
this subject, too).
> > IIRC, the Bard actually flirted w/ the Italian structure in one or more of the later
> > sonnets...
>
> A quick glimpse of the ending couplets of the 154 say no. Let me know what you find out.
No, you're right, I was mistaken. But thanks for making me go back to look. As if I need an
excuse.
> A more topical question for you: did any Irish ever gain fame with sonnets of either form?
Not SFAIK.
I've stumbled across the occasional example - none Italianate - from the 19th c., but they
were, how shall I say this, very *minor* examples of the art.
I suspect that part of the explanation is historical: many of the 'Old English' (as they
called themselves) in Ireland were so assimilated by the Elizabethan period that they were
among the primary patrons of the bardic poets of the Gaelic school.
From my understanding of the history of that period, there was much less cultural continuity
w/ the English metropolitan center. It's likely that sonnets simply never became "all the
rage" among the Irish gentry - even those who wrote & spoke English as their primary or *only*
language - because of this.
Not long after the throne passed to James VI of Scotland [nodding toward Gavin], Shakespeare &
sonnets in general apparently went rapidly out of fashion for some time in Britain - & I doubt
most of the settlers moving to Ireland in the 17th c. were poetically inclined in any case.
I suspect that by the time sonnets began to be popular again in the English-speaking world....
~late 18th. thru the 19th c. - Irish poets were simply much more interested in 'reviving' the
lyric forms of the old Gaelic poetry [just as they were also starting to collect antiquities &
folklore & so forth].
respectfully [if speculatively] submitted,
|K. E. Dennis den...@mail.montclair.edu
The Joiner from Bama
"K. E. Dennis" wrote:
> One of the things I've enjoyed most about getting acquainted w/ Irish poetry has been my
> growing understanding [still rudimentary, tho] of the constraints & liberties of the
> traditional Irish poetic forms - & then seeing how modern poets such as Heaney & Ní Dhomhnaill
> play w/ those forms.
Alas, my educational opportunities on this matter are limited to merely enjoying the words. Can
you recommend any tomes, or is a knowledge of Gaelige required?
> Much more interesting than many examples of free-form verse I've seen (but I can be fickle on
> this subject, too).
As can we all. So much trash, so little treasure.
> > A more topical question for you: did any Irish ever gain fame with sonnets of either form?
>
> Not SFAIK.
> <snip conjecture>
>
> respectfully [if speculatively] submitted,
Many thanks, M'lady. As always, intelligent and wise. You really must appear more often, to edify
us ranks of the unlearned (and teach us some sword tricks).
--
Pete Stuart
The Joiner from Bama
Gerard Cunningham wrote:
> Of course not. Irish is unique among the languages of the world in
> that you don't actually have to know it in order to understand it.
okay, there's the cryptic reply. Where's the translation?
--
Pete Stuart
K. E. Dennis
> "K. E. Dennis" wrote:
>
> > One of the things I've enjoyed most about getting acquainted w/ Irish poetry has been my
> > growing understanding [still rudimentary, tho] of the constraints & liberties of the
> > traditional Irish poetic forms - & then seeing how modern poets such as Heaney & Ní Dhomhnaill
> > play w/ those forms.
>
> Alas, my educational opportunities on this matter are limited to merely enjoying the words. Can
> you recommend any tomes, or is a knowledge of Gaelige required?
Well, to truly appreciate the forms themselves, you have to become @ least acquainted enough w/ the
rules of pronunciation of Irish to *see* the rhyme schemes in the originals - especially the feminine
rhymes, which are a very dominant element in the classic forms.
Especially as there are quite a few very uninspired & uninspiring translations out there that don't
even attempt to capture the rhyme or rhythm of the originals.
However, bilingual texts are widely available now, & one that gives a glimpse of the range & power of
the traditional texts [but also, unfortunately, is IMHO one of the worst examples of unlovely
translation] is:
An Duanaire - 1600-1900: Poems of the Dispossessed
Ed., Séan Ó Tuama, trans., Thomas Kinsella
1981 The Dolmen Press [Bord na Gaeilge]
For an excellent anthology of modern Irish-language poetry, w/ English translations, see:
An Crann Faoi Bláth / The Flowering Tree: Contemporary Irish Poetry with Verse Translations
Pub. 1991, Wolfhound Press [Dublin]
Wake University Press has picked up the publication, in the U.S., of Nuala Ní Dhomhnaill's works; two
excellent volumes were issued in 1993: "The Astrakhan Cloak," & "Pharaoh's Daughter." I can
heartily recommend both.
> Many thanks, M'lady.
My pleasure, sir. Enjoy!
respectfully submitted,
K. E. Dennis
> The Joiner from Bama wrote:
>
> >Alas, my educational opportunities on this matter are limited to merely enjoying the words. Can
> >you recommend any tomes, or is a knowledge of Gaelige required?
>
> Of course not. Irish is unique among the languages of the world in
> that you don't actually have to know it in order to understand it.
A chara, níl mórán Gaeilge agam... [but you don't see that slowing *me* down, now do you?]
But now that I look @ that question again, it occurs to me, Pete, that you were asking not so much
about the availability of the poetry itself [which I answered elsewhere], as of commentary about the
poetry.
If so, I'm not really able to make recommendations, as I've mostly picked up my knowledge about this
from discussions w/ other people far better educated than I on the topic, & from the occasional
explanatory note in anthologies such as _An Duanaire_.
& then I've spent a lot of time looking hard @ the poems themselves, reading, re-reading, & doing
the old compare-&-contrast thing... so in this regard, I'm basically an auto-didact.
The Joiner from Bama
Gerard Cunningham wrote:
> The Joiner from Bama wrote:
>
> >Gerard Cunningham wrote:
> >
> >> Of course not. Irish is unique among the languages of the world in
> >> that you don't actually have to know it in order to understand it.
> >
> >okay, there's the cryptic reply. Where's the translation?
>
> Precisely. :)
Smartass.
--
Pete Stuart
The Joiner from Bama
"K. E. Dennis" wrote:
> The Joiner from Bama wrote:
>
> > Alas, my educational opportunities on this matter are limited to merely enjoying the words. Can
> > you recommend any tomes, or is a knowledge of Gaelige required?
>
> Well, to truly appreciate the forms themselves, you have to become @ least acquainted enough w/ the
> rules of pronunciation of Irish to *see* the rhyme schemes in the originals - especially the feminine
> rhymes, which are a very dominant element in the classic forms.
I was afraid of that. If I'm going to learn the pronunciation, I might as well learn the language, which
I will do as soon as I get around to sending in my papers for Procrastinators'R'Us.
> Especially as there are quite a few very uninspired & uninspiring translations out there that don't
> even attempt to capture the rhyme or rhythm of the originals.
Neil McEwan made the same points with a short poem. I can't find it now, but it made the point well. In
Gaelige it flowed with a lyrical meter unrelated to syllables per line, but his literal translation
turned it into complete doggerel that would make beat poets grimace. <sigh> So many languages, so little
time.
> For an excellent anthology of modern Irish-language poetry, w/ English translations, see:
>
> An Crann Faoi Bláth / The Flowering Tree: Contemporary Irish Poetry with Verse Translations
> Pub. 1991, Wolfhound Press [Dublin]
>
> Wake University Press has picked up the publication, in the U.S., of Nuala Ní Dhomhnaill's works; two
> excellent volumes were issued in 1993: "The Astrakhan Cloak," & "Pharaoh's Daughter." I can
> heartily recommend both.
I am in your debt. <bowes and grunts>
--
Pete Stuart
The Joiner from Bama
"K. E. Dennis" wrote:
> But now that I look @ that question again, it occurs to me, Pete, that you were asking not so much
> about the availability of the poetry itself [which I answered elsewhere], as of commentary about the
> poetry.
Commentary, annotations, and primer, especially on the forms. Basically a course on Irish Poetry 101.
--
Pete Stuart
K. E. Dennis
The Joiner from Bama wrote:
I've made a note to see if I can't find something like this. This search, however, will have to be
undertaken in my Copious Spare Time, which means "don't hold your breath." I'll let you know if anything
interesting turns up.
In the meantime, perhaps one or more of our poetry-loving acquaintance here [Eala? Michael? Tony
Dermody? Are you reading this?] might have a suggestion to offer?
The Joiner from Bama
"K. E. Dennis" wrote:
> In the meantime, perhaps one or more of our poetry-loving acquaintance here [Eala? Michael? Tony
> Dermody? Are you reading this?] might have a suggestion to offer?
Or perhaps a college student looking to sell a slightly used text book. Thanks.
--
Pete Stuart
KateH
> Or perhaps a college student looking to sell a slightly used text book.
Thanks.
Know this isn't what you're looking for (don't ya just love it when people
start like that?) but I just picked up a copy of "1000 years of Irish
Poetry" (edited by Kathleen Hoagland) and it's got a pretty nice selection
in it. :) I'll check the college bookstore here for you, next time I go to
town.
KateH
kfuz...@tinet.ie
> Me,
> on the other hand, I live in North Co. Dublin, so I can be excused bein' a
> cunt because it's expected.
Oh that's excellent. Must use it in court someday.