Early Irish poetry
kill...@my-dejanews.com
tells how he misses being in Derry. I would like it in the original
Irish, and with an English translation.
Thanks, Peter.
--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---
Robin Popplestone
>>I am looking for a poem written by St. Columb, about Derry. In it he
>>tells how he misses being in Derry. I would like it in the original
>>Irish, and with an English translation.
>I don't think such a poem exists. If you find it though, I'd
>appreciate a copy.
It does. I have an English version, it's in quite a well known anthology
of Irish verse (the Oxford one???). The translation's by John Montague,
I recall. Montagueish sort of rhymes
To see the great ocean composing
A hymn to the Creator without end.
Robin.
jake
>And its by Colm Cille? As opposed to, "attributed to Colmcille"?
>
>Why would Colm miss Derry?
COLMCILLE (6th century -- translated by John Montague)
(I)
On some island I long to be,
a rocky promontory, looking on
the coiling surface of the sea.
To see the waves, crest on crest
of the great shining ocean, composing
a hymn to the creator, without rest.
To see without sadness the strand
lined with bright shells, and birds
lamenting overhead, a lonely sound.
To hear the whisper of small waves
against the rocks, that endless sea-
sound, like keening over graves.
To watch the sea-birds sailing
in flocks, and most marvellous
of monsters, the turning whale.
To see the shift from ebbtide
to flood and tell my secret name:
"He who set his back on Ireland.'
(II)
Clamour of the wind making music
in the elms:
Gurgle of the startled blackbird
clapping its wings.
I have lost the three settled places
I loved best:
Durrow, Derry's ledge of angels,
my native parish.
I have loved the land of Ireland
almost beyond speech;
to sleep at Comgall's, to visit Canice,
it would be pleasant!
--jake (I can find no substantiating references at present, however.
Just this poem and the attribute it states..... I wonder, though,...)
Niall
On Tue, 11 May 1999 21:59:54 GMT, Ger@r.d (Cunningham) wrote:
>Why would Colm miss Derry?
Nár d'fhág sé Doire, ar deoraíocht?
Niall
K. E. Dennis
to your e-mail because of a 'syntax error' re your reply-to address.]
jake wrote:
> On Tue, 11 May 1999 21:59:54 GMT, Ger@r.d (Cunningham) wrote:
>
> > Robin Popplestone wrote:
> >
> >>kill...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >>
> >>>>I am looking for a poem written by St. Columb, about Derry.
> >>
> >>>I don't think such a poem exists. If you find it though, I'd
> >>>appreciate a copy.
> >>
> >>It does. I have an English version, it's in quite a well known anthology
> >>of Irish verse (the Oxford one???). The translation's by John Montague,
> >>I recall. Montagueish sort of rhymes
> >
> >And its by Colm Cille? As opposed to, "attributed to Colmcille"?
[snip poem attributed to Colm Cille, translated by John Montague]
> --jake (I can find no substantiating references at present, however.
> Just this poem and the attribute it states..... I wonder, though,...)
I reckon the poem jake has posted is the one killywill was seeking. But
you're right to wonder, jake, & Ger is right to question the attibution.
Several apparently separate verses of varying ages are attributed to or
written 'in the voice of' Colum Cille [see: CELT
http://www.ucc.ie/celt/earlypoetry.html] - but are not verified as being his
work.
These English lines of Montague's look suspiciously like a pastiche (is Pete
watching?) of these shorter poems (or poem fragments).
It is possible that someone redacted those separate poems into a single
sequence, either assuming that they were so originally or because it pleased
the editor's aesthetic sense to link them. I suspect this was well before
Montague did the translation - most likely during the Celtic Revival period.
BTW this is a very common problem w/ sorting out old texts of every kind. In
the 19th c., for example, it was not unusual to produce translated versions of
Sappho's poetry that were similarly stitched together from verse fragments
(alas, *all* of Sappho's poetry comes down to us as fragments), often w/ the
'gaps' filled in to create a 'reconstructed' text.
Like doing an archaeological reconstruction, there's nothing wrong w/ this -
if one clearly indicates what's original & what appended....
respectfully submitted,
|K.E. Dennis den...@mail.montclair.edu
|My employer is not responsible for my opinions,
|regardless of how sensible they are.
Bryan J. Maloney
> And its by Colm Cille? As opposed to, "attributed to Colmcille"?
>
> Why would Colm miss Derry?
No, it's by Colmcille (also spelled Columcille), one name, not two. The
Latinized form of his name was "Columba". St. Columcille founded the
monastary on the Isle of Hy, now called Iona. He missed Derry because he
was exiled from that place. Columcille, before his exile, was an
influential churchman and he made an illicit copy of a psalter and a
liturgy book (I believe)--the copies were illicit because the owner of the
originals had not authorized them. A Synod ruled that the illicit copies
had to be given to the owner over the originals. Rather than comply,
Columcille called out his kinsmen to war over the issue. At the end of
it, as punishment, he was exiled for life from his homeland.
--
To women contemplating marriage: The question you should ask is not
"How much do I love him?" The real question is "How much can I
tolerate him?"
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/bjm10/
Tony Corley
Cunningham wrote:
>
> --
> Gerard
> abardubh at wwa dot com
> "Drong mor do ridirib do techt tar muir 'cum Maic Murcudha."
> Translation: "They started it!"
Drong mhór do ridiribh do theacht thar mhuir do chum Mic Murcudha
lit "a great band of knights coming over the sea to Mac Murra". The descendant
of Diarmaid na nGall still lives somewhere in Wicklow. Nice sig file, but could
be seen as saying "yes, but we invited them!".
jake
<den...@mail.montclair.edu> wrote:
Thanks for the info Karen -- as always, you are a gentlelady and a
scholar..... :)
--jake
Hockersmith
Cunningham <Ger@r.d> wrote in message news:374ca7d6...@news.wwa.com...
>
> Fil súil n-glas
> Colum Cille
>
> Fil súil n-glais
> fégbas Éirinn dar a h-ais;
> noco n-aceba íarmo-thá
> firu Érenn nách a mná.
>
> A blue eye will look back
> to Ireland left behind,
> never again to see
> Irish men, nor women.
> --
> Gerard
Beautiful...
Thank you Ger and Karen!
KateH
Robin Popplestone
> century. Irish Vs Gael isn't as clear-cut as you make out..
Whenever did I imply that there were. Tho' there were a good many Gaels
in Anglo-Saxon England - enough to teach the wild English their
reading and writing.
Robin.
Robin Popplestone
>> >>It does. I have an English version, it's in quite a well known anthology
>> >>of Irish verse (the Oxford one???). The translation's by John Montague,
>> >>I recall. Montagueish sort of rhymes
That is, verse written in Ireland, in whatever language. Quite a lot
of the early stuff was in Latin.
Robin.
Robin Popplestone
> In the 19th c., for example, it was not unusual to produce translated versions of
> Sappho's poetry that were similarly stitched together from verse fragments
> (alas, *all* of Sappho's poetry comes down to us as fragments), often w/ the
> 'gaps' filled in to create a 'reconstructed' text.
The last line of one of the most complete, which goes, from memory:
Asteres men amphi kallan sellanan
Aps' apokruptoisi phaiennon eidos
>oppota plethoisa melista lampe
Gan epi paisan
Is, I believe a reconstruction (excuse the Romanji script and the rough
breathing but you know what ascii is).
Robin.
Robin Popplestone
> Colmcille is the patron saint of copyright pirates & hackers BTW.
An interesting notion, that of ownership of the right to copy what
was a standard text. Presumably the manner of decoration was
at issue. Robin
Pastiche Pete
"K. E. Dennis" wrote:
> These English lines of Montague's look suspiciously like a pastiche (is Pete
> watching?)
When I was a child I always wore Keds,
"Run faster, jump higher" is what the ads said.
These quality sneaks took the worst I could dish,
And for such shoes today I am oft want to wish.
But now when I see K.E.D. on a post,
I'm reminded of quality that was the most.
Though more are constrained by my killfile than not,
A posting by Karen I shall never flaunt.
--
Pete you want pastiche? I got pastiche Stuart
Alan Smaill
> & just to beat a dead horse one more time:
>
> ""Irish" ("Eirionach") as a term of self-description
> arose because the ethnic term "Gael" was inappropriate
> for the alliance of Gaels, Normans and Old English who
> made common cause in the late 16th century around the
> issue of religion." -from way back in September 1997
who said that? ie:
- who are you quoting?
- and who put a late 16th century date to it?
"albannach" is earlier, isn't it?
K. E. Dennis
>
>K. E. Dennis wrote:
>
>>These English lines of Montague's look suspiciously like a pastiche (is Pete
>
>from between circa 1000 & 1200 AD.
>
>The main base for Montague's poem is Robad Mellach, A Meic Mo Dé
>/An Exile's Dream (http://www.ucc.ie/celt/online/G400030/text001.html)
[snip of Robad Mellach, A Meic Mo Dé & Ger's translation]
>Montague's second last verse (above) is based on a different Irish
>original, Tréide As Dile Lem Fo-Rácbus / The Three Best-beloved Places
>(http://www.ucc.ie/celt/online/G400031/text001.html
[snip of Tréide As Dile Lem Fo-Rácbus & Ger's translation]
>>Like doing an archaeological reconstruction, there's nothing wrong w/ this -
>>if one clearly indicates what's original & what appended....
>
>Which is as much excuse as an emigrant needs to append another of the
>'Colmcille' poems from CELT, this one from an 11th century MS.
>[http://www.ucc.ie/celt/online/G400029/]
[snip of Fil súil n-glas]
Thanks for those, Ger. I was wrapped up in the literary traces - it's nice to
see the poems themselves, which after all, is what the original poster was asking
for.
Amazing, is it not, that words can continue to have such potency of meaning even
800 yrs on?
K. E. Dennis
>
>"K. E. Dennis" wrote:
>
>> These English lines of Montague's look suspiciously like a pastiche (is Pete
>> watching?)
>
>"Run faster, jump higher" is what the ads said.
>These quality sneaks took the worst I could dish,
>And for such shoes today I am oft want to wish.
>But now when I see K.E.D. on a post,
>I'm reminded of quality that was the most.
>Though more are constrained by my killfile than not,
>A posting by Karen I shall never flaunt.
<blushes>
<clears throat>
<smiles in pleased reminiscence of those days, tooů>
Pete, you put me to shame.
Y'know, I used to wear them as a kid, too - & secretly really enjoyed having my
initials on everyone's feetů Eat your heart out, Calvin Klein!
<a deep bow, w/ a wee blue Keds sticker on each heel>
K. E. Dennis
>
Thanks for the info Karen -- as always, you are a gentlelady and a
scholar..... :)
You're too kind.
Thanks to you for posting the Montague translation - it may be a
pastiche, but it's a nice poem anyway.
<a respectful bow>
Pastiche Pete
"K. E. Dennis" wrote:
> Pete, you put me to shame.
I would hardly thought that possible, m'lady. Surely the beneficence of the Lady is
above even the vaunted reputation you holdest among these pallid masses. If it
please thee:
When you are old and grey and full of sleep,
And nodding by the fire, take down this book,
And slowly read, and dream of the soft look
Your eyes had once, and of their shadows deep;
How many loved your moments of glad grace,
And loved your beauty with love false or true,
But one man loved the pilgrim soul in you,
And loved the sorrows of your changing face;
And bending down beside the glowing bars,
Murmur, a little sadly, how Love fled
And paced upon the mountains overhead
And hid his face amid a crowd of stars.
--Yeats
Didst Yeats know you in another life?
--
Pete Stuart
jake
>Montague's poem is indeed a composite, based on Irish texts dating
>from between circa 1000 & 1200 AD.
OOOOhhhhhh Thank, Mr. C. I'm all a twittle now...
--jake :) (So many web sites, so little time...)
K. E. Dennis
> Cunningham <Ger@r.d> wrote in message news:374ca7d6...@news.wwa.com...
> >
> > Fil súil n-glas
> > Colum Cille
> >
> > Fil súil n-glais
> > fégbas Éirinn dar a h-ais;
> > noco n-aceba íarmo-thá
> > firu Érenn nách a mná.
> >
> > A blue eye will look back
> > to Ireland left behind,
> > never again to see
> > Irish men, nor women.
>
> Beautiful...
> Thank you Ger and Karen!
[not snipped, as I really think that's a lovely poem]
No thanks due to me, I'm sure. Ger did all the work! But thanks to you, Kate,
for bringing the thread to my attn.
BTW - tho I probably shouldn't say this - I've met the Cardinal, & note that the
reference to a "blue eye look[ing] back" seems especially poignant in this
context....
Pat Naughton
Cunningham (Ger@r.d) writes:
> K. E. Dennis wrote:
>
>>> Cunningham <Ger@r.d> wrote in message news:374ca7d6...@news.wwa.com...
>
>
>>> > A blue eye will look back
>
>>reference to a "blue eye look[ing] back" seems especially poignant in this
>>context....
>
> CELT archive said "blue", & who am I to argue with Cork Academicians?
> "Glas" in modern Irish is green, more or less, but in Old Irish was a
> spectrum covering (I think) dark shades of green, blue & grey.
> "Gorm" OTOH, covered the pastel shades. Mod-I "gorm" is blue in
> Ireland. Interestingly, "liath" (hi Eala) is grey in Ireland, but
> blue in Scotland. I've seen it defined as "the colour of woodsmoke".
Whatever colour eyes those are, I've got them. I'd say basically they're
blue, but they pick up and reflect certain colours around them, so if I'm
wearing green they look green, blue they look blue, and grey they look
grey. I'm amazed at the wide range of colours people say match my eyes
exactly.
Pat
Robin Popplestone
> Robin Popplestone. Earlier in the thread I posted a pre-Norman text
> referring to "firu Érenn" in contradiction to his (oft-repeated)
> claim. Not that he doesn't have a point...
Must have missed that. Well... newsgroups do have that effect on one (of
feeling pressed to repeat one's point).
Robin.
Hockersmith
>
> The problem lies, of course, in the cold inexpressive prose of the
> foreign Saxon tongue, and its slavish adherence to the scientific
> spectrum rather than to the poetic reality of Gaelic light.
> Gerard
I love it when you talk like that.......
KateH :)
Grania
>
>The problem lies, of course, in the cold inexpressive prose of the
>foreign Saxon tongue, and its slavish adherence to the scientific
>spectrum rather than to the poetic reality of Gaelic light.
>
>
Ah Ger, you have inspired me to wax poetic . . .
Haughty, arrogant words so erudite
But truth is hidden behind their veil
Hail the poetic reality of Gaelic light
Within lies the true spirit of the Gael
the mystery of magic mist twilight
Eternal beacon soul deep, bright, never pale
Grania
(Ok . . so it's in the "Saxon" tongue -- only one I know at the moment)
Bro
Pat Naughton <br...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:7hpohs$h...@freenet-news.carleton.ca...
> Whatever colour eyes those are, I've got them. I'd say basically
they're
> blue, but they pick up and reflect certain colours around them, so
if I'm
> wearing green they look green, blue they look blue, and grey they
look
> grey. I'm amazed at the wide range of colours people say match my
eyes
> exactly.
>
>
They sound lovely, pat.
My eyes can be like that too.
Sometimes, when i'm sitting by my favourite spot in the garden, under
the big apple tree, the evening sun catches them and they look deep
limpid pools with little flecks of gold or amber dancing in the
depths. Like little coy carp darting in and out of greyish blue rocks.
At other times, I can be lying languidly under just the harshest nasty
light of the municipal swimming pool when, of a sudden, a little green
and lavender salamander seems to skip from one steely outcrop to
another, quite taking any passing lady by surprise and, if I may be so
bold as to suggest it, filling her with a desire she may not have had
since she was a young girl experiencing her first sensual encounter
with a young man.
bro
Bro
Cunningham <Ger@r.d> wrote in message
> 'S true though. There are words for Red in Irish to cover all the
> eventualities as the grasses heathers & mountains change colour.
>
> Perfidious Albion OTOH, gives us "brown".
>
Its been a while since you had a read through a Dulux catalogue, isn't
it?
bro
Niall
On Mon, 17 May 1999 16:25:23 GMT, Ger@r.d (Cunningham) wrote:
>Interestingly, "liath" (hi Eala) is grey in Ireland, but
>blue in Scotland. I've seen it defined as "the colour of woodsmoke".
"Liath" is grey in SG too. "Ged tha mo cheann air liathadh..."
Màiri Mhór sang when she was getting along in years.
Niall
Niall
On Mon, 17 May 1999 19:51:06 GMT, Ger@r.d (Cunningham) wrote:
>The problem lies, of course, in the cold inexpressive prose of the
>foreign Saxon tongue, and its slavish adherence to the scientific
>spectrum rather than to the poetic reality of Gaelic light.
Inis dóibh a dheartháir!
Niall
ACooper213
>Its been a while since you had a read through a Dulux catalogue, isn't
>it?
What in the world does this mean? Don't tell me, though. I don't want to
know. I wouldn't read the reply if you sent it. (Back at you, Bro)
Tony
Niall
On Tue, 18 May 1999 04:35:56 GMT, Ger@r.d (Cunningham) wrote:
>Niall wrote:
>> "Liath" is grey in SG too. "Ged tha mo cheann air liathadh..."
>>Màiri Mhór sang when she was getting along in years.
>
>Is 'liath' also blue in Scotland? I thought I remembered something to
>that effect on one of the Gaeilge or O-I lists a while back.
Chan fhuil an bhrí sin sna foclóiri...
Niall
Niall
On Tue, 18 May 1999 05:00:31 GMT, Ger@r.d (Cunningham) wrote:
>Nach ait an nós ar mórchuid d'fhearaibh Éireann,
>d'at go nó le mórtas maingiléiseach!
>Cé tais a dtreoir ar chódaibh Galla-chléire,
>ní chanaid glór ach gósta garbh-Bhéarla.
> -Dáibhí Ó Bruadair
Seo píosa filíochta duit féin (as Gaeilge na hAlbainn,
gabh mo leithscéal):
"'S tha 'm figheadair 's an clèireach, 's iad fhéin a bha sgiobalta,
Nuair leum iad air a chèile, bha 'n lèintean nan ribinnean,
Thug iad fuil à sròinean -- thug sòlas do'm chridhe sin --
Gu robh 'n casan tro na brògan, 's bha 'n tòn tro na briogaisean"
-- neo-ainmichte
Niall
Robin Popplestone
> d'at go nó le mórtas maingiléiseach!
> Cé tais a dtreoir ar chódaibh Galla-chléire,
> ní chanaid glór ach gósta garbh-Bhéarla.
-Dáibhí Ó Bruadair
I shouldn't read this strand. Now I'll have to go and
painfully puzzle out what Davey said about the rough
tongue of the Saxons. Damn. Robin
Robin Popplestone
Bit of a confusion here between the products of the London Rubber Company
and Imperial Chemical Industries, I think
Robin
Hockersmith
Bro <bb_bro-...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7hqau3$ct9$2...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> Cunningham <Ger@r.d> wrote in message
> news:374190e1...@news.wwa.com...
>
> > 'S true though. There are words for Red in Irish to cover all the
> > eventualities as the grasses heathers & mountains change colour.
> >
> > Perfidious Albion OTOH, gives us "brown".
> >
> it?
That the one with the Old English Sheepdog?
KateH
Bro
ACooper213 <acoop...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990518001453...@ng-cm1.aol.com...
> BRO WROTE:
>
> >Its been a while since you had a read through a Dulux catalogue,
isn't
> >it?
>
want to
> know. I wouldn't read the reply if you sent it. (Back at you, Bro)
I wouldn't tell you anyway.
Bloody australians.
bro
ACooper213
Thank you, Ger, but I wanted Bro to not tell me. He fails to explain much
better than you do. Bro's lack of clarification is precise and not to the
point at all. I look forward to not seeing his replies.
Tony
Bro
> Thank you, Ger, but I wanted Bro to not tell me. He fails to
explain much
> better than you do. Bro's lack of clarification is precise and not
to the
> point at all. I look forward to not seeing his replies.
No problem.
bro
Cunningham
>Colum Cille cecinit:
>
>Tréide as dile lem fo-rácbus
>ar bith buidnech:
>Durmag, Doire, dinn ard ainglech,
>is Tír Luigdech.
>
>Dámad cet le Ríg na n-aingel
>is na gréine,
>bad maith lim m'adnacht i n-Gartán
>sech cach tréide.
>
>Three Best-Loved Places
>
>Three places I have loved & left
>In this populated world:
>Durrow, Derry the highland of angels
>and Tir Luigdech
>
>If permitted by the King of the angels
>and the sun in heaven,
>I'd rather be buried in Gartan
>that any of the three.
I received this in the mail this morning from the Old-Irish list,
thought I'd share it with ye as a further insight to the poem:
[From Dennis King]
I have Murphy's versions in _Early Irish Lyrics_ in front of
me now, and I was struck by his translation of the last line of
the second rann, "sech cach tréide". He says "in preference to
any group of three", which is literal, but seems odd.
DIL points out that 'tréide' can mean 'accomplishments' ("from
custom of naming these in threes"). The word with this sense
morphs into 'tréithe' and survives in Modern Irish as 'tréith'
(trait, characteristic, accomplishment, achievement). 'Cach'
can furthermore be used in the plural without any change. Thus
"bad maith lim m'adnacht i nGartán / sech cach tréide" may mean
"I would like my burial in Gartán / beyond (in preference to) all
achievements". Gartán was his birthplace, of course.
Incidentally, 'tréide' as the last word of the poem provides a
dúnadh, since it was also the first word. Using the same word
with a different meaning just adds to the sophistication of the
poem, I think.
K. E. Dennis
> I heard a lecture by Nuala Ni Dhomhnaill (sp?)
Correct, but for the fada in Ní.
> last month, and during the Q&A
> period a woman in the class asked about the word 'gorm' and how it really
> couldn't be translated into English. Nuala started to reply, then paused, and
> said 'you've given me an idea for a new poem'.
Right, *now* I'm near death w/ jealousy, trying to imagine hearing a writer
of that stature saying 'you've given me an idea...'
<swoon>
<thunk>
<slowly regains consciousness>
There's only one thing for it - I have to post one of her poems, on poetry itself...
respectfully submitted <w/ still-fluttering pulse>
|K.E. Dennis
|den...@mail.montclair.edu
|My employer is not responsible for my opinions,
|regardless of how sensible they are.
```````````
An Fhilíocht / Poetry
Nuala Ní Dhomhnaill
Pharoah's Daughter
pub. 1990, Gallery Press
```````````
An Fhilíocht
Éinín clipithe a thuirling
lá
ar thairsing na fuinneoige
chugham.
N'fheadar cad as a dtáinig sé
nó cá
Ngaibh sé nuair a fhág sé
Fothain mo rúm.
Créatúirín sciotaithe,
ó Chríocha Lochlann,
do dhein sé nead dó fhéin
go faicheallach
istigh i mo bhaclainn,
do bhailigh fuinneamh, fuinneamh
nó gur chan sé scol
a sheol i dtaibhreamh mé
isteach i dtír nárbh eol
dom soir thar siar ná pé
áit go rabhas ag dul,
arbh lá nó oíche é
nó cad as a dtáinig an ceol,
i dtaobh thoir don ngealaigh
is i dtaobh thiar don ngréin
i ngairdín a bhí lán
de shútha craobh.
N'fheadar cad imigh sé nó fiú
Cathain.
Bhí sé eitilte nuair a dhúisíos
Ar maidin.
Osclaím comhla na fuinneoige
Is ar an dtáirsing
Fágaim méisín fíoruisce
is gráinní ruachruithneachtan.
```````````
Poetry [trans., Tom Mac Intyre]
Almost spent
the small bird landed
on my window-sill,
don't know where from,
don't know where gone,
a scantling,
he nested - circumspect - in my arms,
got back his strength, began to sing.
I lost myself,
lost day and night,
followed the music
east of the moon
and west of the sun
and oh red-ripe the garden-o…
when I awoke
he was gone,
I open my window,
I place on the sill
The bowl of water,
The reddened grain.
````````
kill...@my-deja.com
I found it in a collection held by UCC.
Is aire charaim Doire
Derry
Mór trá do fhertaib ocus mírbuilib do-rigne Día ar Cholum Chille i n-
Doire. Ro char-sam immorra co mór in cathraig-sin, co n-epert:
"Is aire charaim Doire,
ar a réide, ar a gloine;
ar is lomlán aingel finn
ón chinn co n-ice ar-oile".
Thanks,
Peter.
In article <3749F43B...@mail.montclair.edu>,
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