Citizenship Referendum - Yes or No?
OldWiseMan
particularly bearing in mind the debt that Ireland owes to the rest of the
world over many generations. I also believe that immigration enhances the
culture of a country and can contribute to economic growth.
At the same time, I do recognise the need for some degree of control on both
immigration and qualification for citizenship.
The proposed citizenship requirements seem reasonable to me on the surface -
but I am instinctively wary of anything put forward by Mchael McDowell.
Anyone care to convince me that I should vote NO in the referendum?
Michael O'Neill
No. I've tried and I just cannot see my way to Ireland being the back
door into Europe for every refugee in the world.
And to think I naively thought at first that the refugees were coming
here for the work [gypsies coming to work!] and the craic.
No. They were coming to have babies and gain citizenship.
I think the most disingenuous comment to date was by IIRC Michael D.
Higgins who was outraged that two babies born in the same maternity
hospital to different parents could have substantially different sets of
rights.
Well, the news is that babies born to American parents in Ireland have
different sets of rights than babies born to babies born to nigerian
parents in Ireland, and that both of these are different to babies born
to Irish parents in Nigeria.
None are considered stateless persons. But at the moment they are all EU
citizens.
My wife attended the Rotunda a while back and during her visit one six
foot two inch refugee came in and had hale and healthy quads.
Quads! No wonder there are 110 million Nigerians [and counting].
Now if only we can revoke all those Arab passports we gave out...
M.
OldWiseMan
"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
news:qlh6b090kljl4bqdj...@4ax.com...
> Scríobh "OldWiseMan" <oldwis...@hotmail.com>:
> >Anyone care to convince me that I should vote NO in the referendum?
>
> Because the Supreme Court has already set a precedent that means
> citizenship tourism isn't a problem - i.e. the parents of minor
> citizens can already be deported.
>
> Because the number of asylum seekers coming to Ireland is already
> falling.
>
> Because the number of foreign women presenting themselves in Irish
> hospitals is already falling.
These arguments only suggest that the proposed Constitutional change may not
be necessary, not that it is inherently bad.
> Because McDowell's referendum is racist,
How?
> and he is worse than racist -
> he is willing to use racist sentiment in a cynical vote grab.
I know that he would be willing to do anything to grab votes, that's why
I'm suspicious :)
> If its still available, download the Bruce Morrison interview on Pat
> Kenny last week, its about the most sensible I've heard. Also, see
> Vincent Browne's article in the Times about two three weeks ago on the
> numbers game, or Garret Fitzgerald in the same paper two weekends ago.
Will have a look for these when I get time
Cat
"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
news:uvi6b0ddrmepbuttf...@4ax.com...
> Scríobh "OldWiseMan" <oldwis...@hotmail.com>:
> >
> >"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
> >news:qlh6b090kljl4bqdj...@4ax.com...
> >> Scríobh "OldWiseMan" <oldwis...@hotmail.com>:
> >
> >> >Anyone care to convince me that I should vote NO in the referendum?
> >>
> >> Because the Supreme Court has already set a precedent that means
> >> citizenship tourism isn't a problem - i.e. the parents of minor
> >> citizens can already be deported.
> >>
> >> Because the number of asylum seekers coming to Ireland is already
> >> falling.
> >>
> >> Because the number of foreign women presenting themselves in Irish
> >> hospitals is already falling.
> >
> >These arguments only suggest that the proposed Constitutional change may
not
> >be necessary, not that it is inherently bad.
>
> It's inherently unnecessary.
There has been absolutely no debate on the issues at stake - which is why it
will be decided (and probably won) on the basis of the "keep the wogs out"
syndrome.
It also fails to address the main problems: i.e. the inefficient and slow
asylum case assessment process, the inability of asylum seekers whose case
is being assessed to provide for themselves by taking up employment, the
manner in which the work permit of legal immigrants is in the hands of their
employers, not their own.
I note that McDowell is now saying that we need the Constitutional amendment
to bring our immigration law more into line with that of other EU member
states... we have not been asked by *any* other member state to do so, nor
have we been asked by the EU Commission, the EU Parliament, nor the Council
of Ministers...
In short, the referendum on citizenship is unnecessary, and besides the
point. It is also very likely that, having had (and sadly also probably
won) a referendum on citizenship, our Government will consider it has
discharged its responsibilities re. immigration, until the next crisis...
and therefore the very real problems outlined above will not be addressed.
--
Cat(h)
The world swirls...
Howard Beale
"OldWiseMan" <oldwis...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2hgt7eF...@uni-berlin.de...
> I am basically in favour of fairly relaxed controls on immigration,
> particularly bearing in mind the debt that Ireland owes to the rest of the
> world over many generations. I also believe that immigration enhances the
> culture of a country and can contribute to economic growth.
>
> At the same time, I do recognise the need for some degree of control on
both
> immigration and qualification for citizenship.
I agree, but the proposed referendum is intended to close a loophole that
has been proven not to be a problem
>
> The proposed citizenship requirements seem reasonable to me on the
surface -
> but I am instinctively wary of anything put forward by Mchael McDowell.
>
> Anyone care to convince me that I should vote NO in the referendum?
I'm game....
IMO, the referendum is plainly nothing more than pandering for the racist
vote; nothing more, and nothing less. Many may vote yes in good faith, but
the driving force behind it is plainly racist.
Alliekatt
> particularly bearing in mind the debt that Ireland owes to the rest of the
> world over many generations. I also believe that immigration enhances the
> culture of a country and can contribute to economic growth.
Have you read "Hawaii"? If exterminating a native culture with the greed
and festering syphilis that your home Europe and the US generated amongst
its sailors is called enhancing, then go for it. That, like most cases of
colonialism, was the blatant invasion and takeover of a whole culture and
land by Europeans, using disease and ideology to their advantage.
Immigration is always one of two things: importation of cheap labor, _or_
importing oneself to conquer the lot, either using Jesus, or a sense of
superiority, or both.
Ireland doesn't have the economy to handle a massive importation of cheap
labor, and more immigrants will mean a cultural meltdown of some sort. You
cannot keep demanding the liberal openmindedness of people whose borders are
the ocean. Where are they going to move when their daughters are being
grabbed on streetcorners? I was grabbed in Galway City by an African who
tried to pull me down the street, if it were in Derry where my family is,
that African would have found himself bleeding by the Foyle a short while
later.
Unless the said Africans and any other group of nonlocal tossers are willing
to learn Irish, play the pipes, and follow custom when it's keeping hands
off of women, they can seek refuge in a sunnier place where there are more
of them around and they can grab each other. Ireland depresses Africans
anyhow. The weather gives them rickets.
alliekatt
Howard Beale
"Alliekatt" <alley...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ovMsc.16511$yc4....@nwrdny02.gnilink.net...
>
> "OldWiseMan" <oldwis...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:2hgt7eF...@uni-berlin.de...
> > I am basically in favour of fairly relaxed controls on immigration,
> > particularly bearing in mind the debt that Ireland owes to the rest of
the
> > world over many generations. I also believe that immigration enhances
the
> > culture of a country and can contribute to economic growth.
>
> Have you read "Hawaii"? If exterminating a native culture with the greed
> and festering syphilis that your home Europe and the US generated amongst
> its sailors is called enhancing, then go for it. That, like most cases of
> colonialism, was the blatant invasion and takeover of a whole culture and
> land by Europeans, using disease and ideology to their advantage.
> Immigration is always one of two things: importation of cheap labor, _or_
> importing oneself to conquer the lot, either using Jesus, or a sense of
> superiority, or both.
>
> Ireland doesn't have the economy to handle a massive importation of cheap
> labor,
Plenty of employers ready to employ them, either legally or otherwise
> and more immigrants will mean a cultural meltdown of some sort.
It never affected English culture (curry eating, and late night shop opening
excepted)
> You
> cannot keep demanding the liberal openmindedness of people whose borders
are
> the ocean. Where are they going to move when their daughters are being
> grabbed on streetcorners? I was grabbed in Galway City by an African who
> tried to pull me down the street,
I was mugged in London City by an Irishman, not that long ago. An African
woman helped me to the hospital
> if it were in Derry where my family is,
> that African would have found himself bleeding by the Foyle a short while
> later.
This the culture you're worried about being melted down?
(I'm in an argumentative mood today)
Turlough
> I wouldn't worry too much about it. The Americans will soon have them
> all shot.
Not the ones who are *with* us...
Turlough
OldWiseMan
"Alliekatt" <alley...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ovMsc.16511$yc4....@nwrdny02.gnilink.net...
>
> news:2hgt7eF...@uni-berlin.de...
> Have you read "Hawaii"? If exterminating a native culture with the greed
> and festering syphilis that your home Europe and the US generated amongst
> its sailors is called enhancing, then go for it. That, like most cases of
> colonialism, was the blatant invasion and takeover of a whole culture and
> land by Europeans, using disease and ideology to their advantage.
There's a big difference between immigration and colonisation
> Ireland doesn't have the economy to handle a massive importation of cheap
> labor
Somehow, I don't think Ireland is going to attract that volume of
immigration.
> I was grabbed in Galway City by an African who
> tried to pull me down the street, if it were in Derry where my family is,
> that African would have found himself bleeding by the Foyle a short while
> later.
Don't know how long it is since you've been home, or how well your folks
keep you up to date, but Derry has a serious street violence problem and
it's nothing to do with immigrants (and before Howard jumps in, it's nothing
to do with politics, it's mostly drink/drugs related)
> Unless the said Africans and any other group of nonlocal tossers are
willing
> to learn Irish, play the pipes, and follow custom when it's keeping hands
> off of women, they can seek refuge in a sunnier place where there are more
> of them around and they can grab each other. Ireland depresses Africans
> anyhow. The weather gives them rickets.
Now you're just being racist.
Michael O'Neill
<snip>
> I've tried too, but I can't see it either. The evidence of Ireland
> being a back door to *anywhere* just isn't there.
It is there.
<snip>
> Quadruplets are a rare occurrence, I'm surprised I didn't see this
> story in the papers. Are you sure you didn't pull it out of your arse?
<snip>
You're the one who can't see the facts about Ireland being the back door
into Europe.
M.
Michael O'Neill
<snip>
> Because McDowell's referendum is racist, and he is worse than racist -
> he is willing to use racist sentiment in a cynical vote grab.
<snip>
McDowell's rants against Sinn Féin were a cynical poly to distract
attention from the assurances given about the release of Gerry McCabe's
killers and a weak attempt to grab votes.
Rushing this referendum has discredited him and will probably lose him
votes. You're making no sense.
M.
Michael O'Neill
> Scríobh Michael O'Neill <o...@indigo.ie>:
> >Féachadóir wrote:
> ><snip>
> >> Because McDowell's referendum is
> >> racist, and he is worse than racist -
> >> he is willing to use racist sentiment in a cynical vote grab.
> ><snip>
> >McDowell's rants against Sinn Féin
> >were a cynical poly to distract
> >attention from the assurances given
> >about the release of Gerry McCabe's
> >killers and a weak attempt to grab votes.
> McDowell's rants against Sinn Féin
> are designed to bring the FG
> law'n'order vote over to the PDs.
<nods>
I'll agree with that view in part.
I also see the distraction mechanism at work.
> The McCabe affair isn't hurting
> him, northern policy sticks to
> Bertie, not the PDs.
Fair comment also. Maybe Bertie asked for the distraction to ensure the
Shinners DON't give up the Gun just YET!
LOL!
But McDowell will carry the can come the next election if they're
released and he's still Minister for Justice.
> >Rushing this referendum has
> >discredited him and will probably lose him
> >votes. You're making no sense.
> The referendum looks set to pass on a 2:1 majority, unless there's a
> persuasive case made to the DKs. FG chickened out after the debate,
> Labour are keeping their heads down, SF never reach beyond their own
> constituency, and you can bet they aren't pushing the official line in
> the doorsteps. Who do you see making that case?
I've no doubt of what you state in general, and the vote panders to Irish
xenophobia to be certain, but McDowell's Frankenstein-like bedside manner
has only been made worse by this latest bullying tactic. I think that
will cost him votes if its used against him, as it will be.
You'll note the scramble to amend legislation to deal with Curtin.
A bad legislator tries to do things the legislation won't allow and then
"fixes" the legislation.
Rabbitte had the right of it when he suggested that the "stated
misbehaviour" route probably fell under the rule of evidence ruling on
the warrant, despite the current noises about the Oireactas Committee
hearing expert testimony and viewing the illegally obatined evidence.
Rabbitte's read of it was that the "incapacity" argument held more merit,
despite the fact that the intention of the framers would have run to
personal physical or mental incapacity.
Another minefield for McDowell, along with the non-existent legislation
promised after the Jude Kelly incident. You cannot help but feel that
these delays are pandering to a certain lobby, one that might know where
more than one skeleton is buried...
FWIW
M.
Howard Beale
>
>
> Don't know how long it is since you've been home, or how well your folks
> keep you up to date, but Derry has a serious street violence problem and
> it's nothing to do with immigrants (and before Howard jumps in, it's
nothing
> to do with politics, it's mostly drink/drugs related)
Ahem!!! Moi? Would I do such a thing? So where do the drugs come from,
anyway? Nothing to do with people from certain political parties?
kateh
I haven't shot anybody all day.
KateH
Alliekatt
> > Unless the said Africans and any other group of nonlocal tossers are
> willing
> > to learn Irish, play the pipes, and follow custom when it's keeping
hands
> > off of women, they can seek refuge in a sunnier place where there are
more
> > of them around and they can grab each other. Ireland depresses Africans
> > anyhow. The weather gives them rickets.
>
> Now you're just being racist.
No, I'm being factual. That's why milk n the US is fortified with Vitamin
D, so the Africans can survive not getting rickets from a lack of sun. the
rest of us bluebellied fish can go out and get it with 5 minutes in cloudy
weather.
Look it up.
GoldenArse
> I am basically in favour of fairly relaxed controls on immigration,
> particularly bearing in mind the debt that Ireland owes to the rest of the
> world over many generations. I also believe that immigration enhances the
> culture of a country and can contribute to economic growth.
>
> At the same time, I do recognise the need for some degree of control on
both
> immigration and qualification for citizenship.
It's no skin offa our noses ta let a few in - Jaysus we were quick ta fuck
off ta Australia America an England in the past. Fair play ta dem, the poor
bastards. Besides our Olympic team could use a few good runners.
GoldenArse
SCI Asylum Resident
Howard Beale
"Michael O'Neill" <o...@indigo.ie> wrote in message
news:40B3CFAA...@indigo.ie...
Then it's Europe's problem, not Ireland's
Michael O'Neill
You can look up your own arse.
M.
Michael O'Neill
On the contrary. We are Europe's problem.
That's why there's such a scurry to close the gate.
Why else do you think the refugees are coming over here, dropping their
bains and then queuing up outside the British Embassy for visas.
Do you see endless queues of Irish people queuing outside the British
embassy?
No you don't.
Q.E.D.
M.
Howard Beale
> Howard Beale wrote:
> >
> > "Michael O'Neill" <o...@indigo.ie> wrote in message
> > news:40B3CFAA...@indigo.ie...
> > > Féachadóir wrote:
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > > I've tried too, but I can't see it either. The evidence of Ireland
> > > > being a back door to *anywhere* just isn't there.
> > >
> > > It is there.
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > > Quadruplets are a rare occurrence, I'm surprised I didn't see this
> > > > story in the papers. Are you sure you didn't pull it out of your
arse?
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > You're the one who can't see the facts about Ireland being the back
door
> > > into Europe.
> >
> > Then it's Europe's problem, not Ireland's
>
> On the contrary. We are Europe's problem.
Yes, but not in that way
>
> That's why there's such a scurry to close the gate.
It's already been proven that it's not a problem
>
> Why else do you think the refugees are coming over here, dropping their
> bains and then queuing up outside the British Embassy for visas.
>
> Do you see endless queues of Irish people queuing outside the British
> embassy?
>
> No you don't.
Of course you don't. But now you mention it... Maybe Britain should adopt
the same kind of racist attitude to stop all the Irish moving over there
BfB
"Howard Beale" <how...@REMOVEmad-as-hell.com> wrote in message
news:c92tns$d5c$1...@sparta.btinternet.com...
>
>
> Of course you don't. But now you mention it... Maybe Britain should adopt
> the same kind of racist attitude to stop all the Irish moving over there
>
BfB
Howard Beale
"BfB" <_@-._> wrote in message news:J5udnaBFg6m...@adelphia.com...
Sorry, it was a bit lame. I'll try to get back to my normal outrageous self
tomorrow
BfB
"Howard Beale" <how...@REMOVEmad-as-hell.com> wrote in message
Howard Beale
"BfB" <_@-._> wrote in message news:SMadncIDLMy...@adelphia.com...
You're welcome
westprog
"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
news:uvi6b0ddrmepbuttf...@4ax.com...
> Scríobh "OldWiseMan" <oldwis...@hotmail.com>:
> >
> >"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
> >news:qlh6b090kljl4bqdj...@4ax.com...
> >> Scríobh "OldWiseMan" <oldwis...@hotmail.com>:
> >
> >>
> >> citizenship tourism isn't a problem - i.e. the parents of minor
> >> citizens can already be deported.
> >>
> >> Because the number of asylum seekers coming to Ireland is already
> >> falling.
> >>
> >> Because the number of foreign women presenting themselves in Irish
> >> hospitals is already falling.
> >
> >These arguments only suggest that the proposed Constitutional change may
not
> >be necessary, not that it is inherently bad.
>
> for negative statements. Neither should it be something we amend
> every time an unpopular government needs an issue. Twenty years on,
> we're still dealing with the fallout from the 8th Amendment
>
> >> Because McDowell's referendum is racist,
> >
>
> Because for al the handwaving, it boils down to "No niggers need
> apply." Its a taxidrivers referendum, aimed at all the Joe Duffy
> listeners who know, sure as god, because their second cousin who works
> in the dole office told them for a fact, that "they" are all getting
> ?200,00 houses and cars
> >> and he is worse than racist -
> >> he is willing to use racist sentiment in a cynical vote grab.
> >I know that he would be willing to do anything to grab votes, that's why
> >I'm suspicious :)
> Only suspicious? This is the guy who ran on a "put manners on FF"
> ticket, and puts most FFers to shame when it comes to cynical ambition
> >> If its still available, download the Bruce Morrison interview on Pat
> >> Kenny last week, its about the most sensible I've heard. Also, see
> >> Vincent Browne's article in the Times about two three weeks ago on the
> >> numbers game, or Garret Fitzgerald in the same paper two weekends ago.
> >Will have a look for these when I get time
> RTE soundfiles expire after a week, but googling his name and
> "referendum" should bring up coverage of the points he made.
> The Irish Times needs a subscription, but I can post the articles here
> if there's a demand. If there's going to be a debate on it, we should
> at least have the figures.
It may well be that there is no significant current issue of overseas
nationals coming to Ireland to give birth - but that doesn't mean that there
never will be. Ireland at present has a similar policy of citizenship by
birth as America, but is more accessible. If I lived in Africa, or some
other part of the world where life is precarious and uncertain, I'd consider
giving a child an Irish passport as a present a good idea. If it couldn't be
used until he or she was old enough to move to Ireland, or anywhere else in
the EU, it would still be worth having.
The amendment is colour-blind. Any alternative legislation that restricted
access to Ireland by potentially pregnant women wouldn't be. It would allow
white skinned tourists in and prevent access to the third worlders.
C/
SOTW: "Shake Some Action" - The Flaming Groovies
BfB
"westprog" <west...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:%x5vc.1111$Z14....@news.indigo.ie...
>
> "Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
> news:uvi6b0ddrmepbuttf...@4ax.com...
> > Scríobh "OldWiseMan" <oldwis...@hotmail.com>:
> > >
> > >"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
> > >news:qlh6b090kljl4bqdj...@4ax.com...
> > >> Scríobh "OldWiseMan" <oldwis...@hotmail.com>:
> > >
> > >> >Anyone care to convince me that I should vote NO in the referendum?
27/05/2004
By Fionnán Sheahan, Political Correspondent
DIRECT evidence of "citizenship tourism" is revealed in documentation
obtained by the Irish Examiner.
The correspondence shows the Government was informed last summer that an
increasing number of non-nationals from Eastern European countries and Arab
states were attempting to book places in maternity hospital before
travelling to this country for delivery.
The letter of warning was sent to Health Minister Micheál Martin and Justice
Minister Michael McDowell by the Master of the National Maternity Hospital,
Dr Declan Keane.
Last night, Dr Keane said the practice of non-national parents seeking
advance bookings had declined since then, but the number of non-EU nationals
coming to avail of the lax citizenship laws continues to increase.
The documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act support Mr
McDowell's claim that citizenship tourism is a growing phenomenon that needs
to be closed off through the forthcoming referendum.
While Dr Keane's letter in July 2003 does not quantify the exact level of
abuse of the citizenship laws, he did provide an example of how an
increasing number of people were trying to make direct contact with the
hospital in an attempt to make bookings and obtain visas for their visit to
Ireland.
Attached to the letter is a fax from a Ukrainian oil industry businessman,
Victor Tkachenko, seeking to book in his pregnant wife for delivery later in
the year and also seeking advice on when she has to arrive in Ireland for
her first appointment, the medical documents required, the duration of the
stay for delivery, the cost of the service and visa support.
"It seems regrettable that since the Supreme Court decision earlier this
year there has been no decrease in the number of non-nationals attending
Ireland, and Dublin in particular. In fact the numbers only continue to
increase," Dr Keane wrote on July 24.
Last night, Dr Keane said the number of these letters has dropped off as the
word has gone out that these bookings are not accepted.
Dr Keane also said he had contacted the ambassador of one of the Arab states
requesting that his embassy staff stop assisting citizens from that country
in making advance bookings.
Primarily concerned about the medical dangers for heavily pregnant women
travelling long distances and the pressures these often complicated births
are putting on hospitals, Dr Keane said he believes up to half of the non-EU
nationals giving birth at the hospital are attempting to avail of the
citizenship laws particularly wealthy Eastern Europeans and Nigerians.
"The only difference is they don't phone ahead, they just show up," he said.
The number of non-national births at Holles Street has risen from 21% in
2003 to 24% in the first four months of 2004.
Contacted yesterday by the Irish Examiner at his Odessa office, Mr Tkachenko
said he ultimately decided not to send his wife to Ireland to give birth, as
his primary motivation was the quality of medical care.
Describing the passport provision as "an additional plus" to the Irish
system, he said he had associates whose wives did come to Ireland to give
birth, solely to avail of the citizenship laws.
"I know two acquaintances whose main reason was to get a passport for their
child," he said.
Saying Ireland's citizenship laws were well known abroad in his experience,
Mr Tkachenko said the mothers in these cases returned to Russia and the
Ukraine after giving birth.
"Of course they did. They just wanted to have a second type of passport in
the family," he said.
BfB
"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
> Scríobh "westprog" <west...@hotmail.com>:
> >"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote
>
> >>>>Scríobh "OldWiseMan" <oldwis...@hotmail.com>:
>
> >>>>>Anyone care to convince me that I should vote NO in the referendum?
>
> >> RTE soundfiles expire after a week, but googling his name and
> >> "referendum" should bring up coverage of the points he made.
> >> The Irish Times needs a subscription, but I can post the articles here
> >> if there's a demand. If there's going to be a debate on it, we should
> >> at least have the figures.
> >
> >It may well be that there is no significant current issue of overseas
> >nationals coming to Ireland to give birth - but that doesn't mean that
there
> >never will be.
>
> deporting the non-citizen parents of an Irish minor. If a problem
> truly exists, there is no reason why it could not have been dealt with
> legislatively. The referendum exists solely to exploit racist
> sentiment.
>
> If there ever is a problem with adult Irish-born citizens coming to
> Ireland, I fail to see why it should be any more of a problem than
> that currently posed by granny-rulers deciding to set up shop here.
>
> >Ireland at present has a similar policy of citizenship by
> >birth as America, but is more accessible.
>
> frontiers.
>
> We also have the same policy of citizenship as Canada.
>
> >If I lived in Africa, or some
> >other part of the world where life is precarious and uncertain, I'd
consider
> >giving a child an Irish passport as a present a good idea. If it couldn't
be
> >used until he or she was old enough to move to Ireland, or anywhere else
in
> >the EU, it would still be worth having.
>
> that it isn't a problem.
>
> >The amendment is colour-blind. Any alternative legislation that
restricted
> >access to Ireland by potentially pregnant women wouldn't be. It would
allow
> >white skinned tourists in and prevent access to the third worlders.
>
> citizenship) to adults or minors in the care of adults with a prior
> right to residence is constitutional, and would pass the colour test.
>
> The colour test is a red herring however. You've been in SCI - and
> Ireland - long enough at this stage to know that skin colour isn;t the
> only way to discriminate. The rhetoric employed against asylum
> seekers and migrants is no different to that used for years against
> the Irish in Britain, travellers in Ireland, catholics in Belfast, and
> whatever you're having yourself.
>
> --
> "Ferr fíor fertaib"
> Féachadóir
Using that 'racist' label, and 'granny-rulers' label, tells me you have no
interest in the welfare of Ireland, only your liberal perverted view that
you know better, fuels any warped opinion you put forth. You really
are a disgrace to anything Irish, in my opinion. You're no different
than the ACLU'ers over here, ripping any semblence of a good
society to pieces. Anti religion, pro homosexual, anti anything Irish.
Revealed: proof of citizenship tourism
27/05/2004
By Fionnán Sheahan, Political Correspondent
DIRECT evidence of "citizenship tourism" is revealed in documentation
obtained by the Irish Examiner.
The correspondence shows the Government was informed last summer that an
increasing number of non-nationals from Eastern European countries and Arab
states were attempting to book places in maternity hospital before
travelling to this country for delivery.
The letter of warning was sent to Health Minister Micheál Martin and Justice
Minister Michael McDowell by the Master of the National Maternity Hospital,
Dr Declan Keane.
Last night, Dr Keane said the practice of non-national parents seeking
advance bookings had declined since then, 'but the number of non-EU
nationals coming to avail of the lax citizenship laws continues to
increase.'
kateh
> Hardly. Ireland is a small island, American has huge unguarded land
> frontiers.
Why was I sure you were going to say ....."tracks o' land instead" of
"unguarded land frontiers"?
KateH
MMcC
>>
>> The colour test is a red herring however. You've been in SCI - and
>> Ireland - long enough at this stage to know that skin colour isn;t the
>> only way to discriminate. The rhetoric employed against asylum
>> seekers and migrants is no different to that used for years against
>> the Irish in Britain, travellers in Ireland, catholics in Belfast, and
>> whatever you're having yourself.
>>
>> --
>> "Ferr fíor fertaib"
>> Féachadóir
>
>Using that 'racist' label, and 'granny-rulers' label, tells me you have no
>interest in the welfare of Ireland, only your liberal perverted view that
>you know better, fuels any warped opinion you put forth. You really
>are a disgrace to anything Irish, in my opinion. You're no different
>than the ACLU'ers over here, ripping any semblence of a good
>society to pieces. Anti religion, pro homosexual, anti anything Irish.
Aha Ger, I think he has you sussed.
Your time is up, you anti-Irish, homosexual-loving, Gaeilgóir,
TGCeathar-watching, southwest Donegal fiddling afficionado, GAA
supporting bastard you.
Good man yerself Bob, thank Christ we have yanks like you to save us
from ourselves.
BfB
FW
LOL! Ireland is *part* of Europe.
MMcC
I'm pro CLG, myself.
Derek Bell
> I am basically in favour of fairly relaxed controls on immigration,
> particularly bearing in mind the debt that Ireland owes to the rest of the
> world over many generations. I also believe that immigration enhances the
> culture of a country and can contribute to economic growth.
>
> At the same time, I do recognise the need for some degree of control on both
> immigration and qualification for citizenship.
>
> but I am instinctively wary of anything put forward by Mchael McDowell.
That's a good idea in itself...
> Anyone care to convince me that I should vote NO in the referendum?
Well, McDowell has convinced me that he's scaremongering - his claims
about the masters of the maternity hospitals, contradicted by the
masters themselves. Then there's the figures he's quoted - they
weren't broken down by whether the non-national parents were either
working here with a visa or if one parent was Irish.
Derek
Derek Bell
> "Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
> > Scríobh "OldWiseMan" <oldwis...@hotmail.com>:
> > >
> > >"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
> > >> Scríobh "OldWiseMan" <oldwis...@hotmail.com>:
>
> > >> >Anyone care to convince me that I should vote NO in the referendum?
> > >>
> > >> citizenship tourism isn't a problem - i.e. the parents of minor
> > >> citizens can already be deported.
> > >>
> > >> Because the number of asylum seekers coming to Ireland is already
> > >> falling.
> > >>
> > >> Because the number of foreign women presenting themselves in Irish
> > >> hospitals is already falling.
> > >
> > >These arguments only suggest that the proposed Constitutional change may
> not
> > >be necessary, not that it is inherently bad.
> >
> > It's inherently unnecessary.
True.
> There has been absolutely no debate on the issues at stake - which is why it
> will be decided (and probably won) on the basis of the "keep the wogs out"
> syndrome.
Sadly true.
> It also fails to address the main problems: i.e. the inefficient and slow
> asylum case assessment process, the inability of asylum seekers whose case
> is being assessed to provide for themselves by taking up employment, the
> manner in which the work permit of legal immigrants is in the hands of their
> employers, not their own.
That's another issue that is noticable by the fact that it isn't being
debated.
Instead, an emotive, unneccessary referendum is being run.
> I note that McDowell is now saying that we need the Constitutional amendment
> to bring our immigration law more into line with that of other EU member
> states... we have not been asked by *any* other member state to do so, nor
> have we been asked by the EU Commission, the EU Parliament, nor the Council
> of Ministers...
<SARCASM>
Gee... do ya think he's being a cynical bastard?
</SARCASM>
Seriously, I get the distinct impression that the current Minister for
Injustice is as bad, or even worse, than the John O'Donoghue.
> In short, the referendum on citizenship is unnecessary, and besides the
> point. It is also very likely that, having had (and sadly also probably
> won) a referendum on citizenship, our Government will consider it has
> discharged its responsibilities re. immigration, until the next crisis...
> and therefore the very real problems outlined above will not be addressed.
What Féachadóir and Cat said!
Derek
Cat
"MMcC" <in...@earthlings.com> wrote in message
news:3bdvb09mpvjeuti6g...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 15:03:47 -0400, "BfB" <_@-._> wrote:
> >I'm pro GAA.
Ha ! That's putting him back in his box!
You're right stumped, now, Micky Mac, aren't you!
--
Cat(h) (how can he *possibly* respond to *that* one)
The world swirls...
Howard Beale
"FW" <revi...@emailaccount.com> wrote in message
news:3e34cae9.04060...@posting.google.com...
Debatable
Howard Beale
"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
> Scríobh revi...@emailaccount.com (FW):
Quite
John P. Mullen
they'll take a mile (cm and km for you metric fans).
:-)
John Mullen
"Féachadóir" wrote:
>
> Scríobh "Howard Beale" <how...@REMOVEmad-as-hell.com>:
> Either way, the EU has no competency in deciding citizenship of member
> states.