We are not Celts at all but Galicians
Diarmid Logan
We are not Celts at all but Galicians
BRIAN DONNELLY
September 10 2004
CELTIC nations such as Scotland and Ireland have more in common with
the Portuguese and Spanish than with the Celts of central Europe,
according to a new academic report.
Historians have long believed that the British Isles were swamped by a
massive invasion of Iron Age Celts from central Europe around 500BC.
However, geneticists at Trinity College in Dublin now claim that the
Scots and Irish have more in common with the people of north-western
Spain.
Dr Daniel Bradley, genetics lecturer at Trinity College, said a new
study into Celtic origins revealed close affinities with the people of
Galicia.
He said: "It's well-known that there are cultural relations between
the areas but now this shows there is much more. We think the links
are much older than that of the Iron Age because it also shows
affinities with the Basque region, which isn't a Celtic region."
He added: "The links point towards other Celtic nations, in particular
Scotland, but they also point to Spain."
Historians believed the Celts, originally Indo-European, invaded the
Atlantic islands in a massive migration 2500 years ago.
But using DNA samples from people living in Celtic nations and other
parts of Europe, geneticists at the university have drawn new
parallels.
Dr Bradley said it was possible migrants moved from the Iberian
peninsula to Ireland as far back as 6000 years ago up until 3000 years
ago.
"I don't agree with the idea of a massive Iron Age invasion that took
over the Atlantic islands. You can regard the ocean, rather than a
barrier, as a communication route," Dr Bradley said.
Archaeologists have also been questioning the links between the Celts
of eastern France and southern Germany and the people of the British
Isles and the new research appears to prove their theories.
The Dublin study found that people in areas traditionally known as
Celtic, such as Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Brittany and Cornwall, had
strong links with each other and had more in common with people from
the Iberian peninsula.
It also found people in Ireland have more in common with Scots than
any other nation.
"What we would propose is that this commonality among the Atlantic
facade is much older, 6000 years ago or earlier," Dr Bradley added.
There are also close links between Scotland and Ireland dating back
much further than the plantations of the 1600s when many Scots moved
to Northern Ireland in search of fertile farming lands, the research
showed.
However, the researchers could not determine whether fair skin,
freckles, red hair and fiery tempers truly are Celtic traits.
Stephen Oppenheimer, professor of clinical socio-medical sciences at
Oxford, said that the Celts of western Scotland, Wales, Ireland and
Cornwall were descended from an ancient people living on the Atlantic
coast when Britain was still attached to mainland Europe, while the
English were more closely related to the Germanic peoples of the
interior.
He said: "The English are the odd ones out because they are the ones
more linked to continental Europe. The Scots, the Irish, the Welsh and
the Cornish are all very similar in their genetic pattern to the
Basque."
The study headed by Dr Bradley was published in the American Journal
of Human Genetics.
Michilín
wrote:
Congratulations on posting something which makes excellent sense.
We know from the sagas that we came from Galicia and the heavy
cultural accent left by Iberian Celts in Galicia admits of no other
explanation. How pleasant therefore to se the DNA confirmation - and
also because the old tale that the Welsh came from North Africa is now
looking more as though it could be based in fact. Indeed, with only
eight miles of sea today separating southern Spain from Africa, given
the 300 feet minus depth of sea which made Britain part of Europe,
there can be little reason to deny that tribes might have wandered
over from Africa to Spain to see if the hunting was better - eight
miles can be comfortably covered on foot in a morning.
Michilín
Jackie Mulheron
"Diarmid Logan" <diarmi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:622d5dd0.0409...@posting.google.com...
Ah yes more confused bull from the ill informed "Scottish" press.
Perhaps Mr Donnelly has to do some more research on the origins of the "Gal"
and (hard C) "Cel" parts of the words he just mentioned.
> BRIAN DONNELLY
>
> September 10 2004
>
> CELTIC nations such as Scotland and Ireland have more in common with
> the Portuguese and Spanish than with the Celts of central Europe,
> according to a new academic report.
Maybe he should also look at the Celtic Film Festival which includes, er,
Galician work.
> Historians have long believed that the British Isles were swamped by a
> massive invasion of Iron Age Celts from central Europe around 500BC.
Not very good historians then. Others have also believed for some time that
there was migration in a crescent shape from Iberia, through Ireland and
into Scotland.
<snip>
> He said: "It's well-known that there are cultural relations between
> the areas but now this shows there is much more. We think the links
> are much older than that of the Iron Age because it also shows
> affinities with the Basque region, which isn't a Celtic region."
Gosh Dairmid. That kind of knocks on the head your argument that the Scots
are Germanic and only the Irish have some link with the Basques. And from an
Irish university as well.
<snips>
> It also found people in Ireland have more in common with Scots than
> any other nation.
Look Diarmid. We are kin.
> There are also close links between Scotland and Ireland dating back
> much further than the plantations of the 1600s when many Scots moved
> to Northern Ireland in search of fertile farming lands, the research
> showed.
Gosh! Someone doesn't know where the Scotti originated from by the looks of
things. Perhaps they've been listening too much to the Rev Paisly et al.
sidheseeker
A question Dermud.. who were the Galicians..?
Steve
"sidheseeker" <sidhe...@ireland.com> wrote in message
news:90f4624a.04091...@posting.google.com...
Break-away sect from Gallifrey?
--
Steve :o)
(One of the Nordie f**ks)
Michilín
wrote:
The people of Galicia, the northwestern province of Spain immediately
north of Portugal. Alll the European provinces named Galicia/Galizia,
Galatia, Gaul, Galles, etc. are former Celtic regions.
Michilín
Lyndon
and the French 'Pays de Galles'?
Gwynfor Evans wrote, it must have been about years ago:
'These neolithic folk [Iberian] inhabited Wales when the Celts came from the
Continent, where they were the dominant power 300-400 B.C. from Galatia, in
the east, to Galicia, in the west'.
So isn't this confirming what we already believed, rather than changing the
face of history?
Lyndon
grey$hawk
"Lyndon" <lyndon11bu...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:ci6aii$1qk$1...@titan.btinternet.com...
The time period they are talking (6000 years ago) predate the rise of the
Celtic
tribes,initially in the Hallstatt area of Austria, by about 3000 years. So
the
people who they say the Irish and Scots are descended from are from
pre-Celtic
Western Europe.
As for Galicia being Celtic, indeed it was and still is. But that didnt
happen until
much later, more like 100 bc or later. Around the time Julius Caesar did
his
genocide thing on the Celtic tribes of Europe, I think. Gaul is what the
Romans
called the Celtic tribal area of France, and from that we get all the Gael,
Gallic,
Galicia, etc.
georgette
allan connochie
"Lyndon" <lyndon11bu...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:ci6aii$1qk$1...@titan.btinternet.com...
>
> news:622d5dd0.0409...@posting.google.com...
> > http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/23762.html
> >
> > We are not Celts at all but Galicians
> >
the
> face of history?
In a word yes! It's yet another non-story. The journalist claims we're not
Celts but are descended from folk in northern Spain. He seems to not
realise that Celtic languages were spoken there too. Celtiberian for
instance. I can't see that any of this proves a migration from that area
anyway. All it shows is that folk on the western Atlantic fringes of Europe
have much in common. Which as you suggest, would be expected anyway.
Likewise he talks of the close connection between the Scots and Irish going
back well before the 1600s. Well again we all knew that anyway.You've got
to wonder if they haven't anything better to do.
cheers
Allan
grey$hawk
"allan connochie" <al...@EASYNET.CO.UK> wrote in message
news:4146...@news.greennet.net...
Please look at the time period they are talking about. Celtic languages
were not spoken in Western Europe until well after the 6000BC that
the journalist talks about being the migration time from the Northern
Spain area to the Atlantic Islands.
I think researchers are getting closer to affirming that Celticism,
especially in
the British Isles, is not necessarily genetic ancestry but more of an
adoption of a language, culture, perhaps even religion from peoples
who arose in the area of Austria/Switzerland around 1000-300BC. There
was definitely some migration, and inter-breeding, but probably not any
wholesale taking over of the whole British Isles by a bunch of
displaced Celtic tribes from Western Europe.
georgette
Michilín
<al...@EASYNET.CO.UK> wrote:
>
>"Lyndon" <lyndon11bu...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>news:ci6aii$1qk$1...@titan.btinternet.com...
>>
>> "Diarmid Logan" <diarmi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:622d5dd0.0409...@posting.google.com...
>> > http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/23762.html
>> >
>> > We are not Celts at all but Galicians
>> >
>> So isn't this confirming what we already believed, rather than changing
>the
>> face of history?
>
>
>In a word yes! It's yet another non-story. The journalist claims we're not
>Celts but are descended from folk in northern Spain. He seems to not
>realise that Celtic languages were spoken there too. Celtiberian for
>instance. I can't see that any of this proves a migration from that area
>anyway.
Notwithstanding, the Celts of Galicia emigrated to Ireland.
>All it shows is that folk on the western Atlantic fringes of Europe
>have much in common. Which as you suggest, would be expected anyway.
>Likewise he talks of the close connection between the Scots and Irish going
>back well before the 1600s. Well again we all knew that anyway.You've got
>to wonder if they haven't anything better to do.
>
>cheers
>
>Allan
>
>
>
>
Michilín
Diarmid Logan
They weren't Celts. People had moved from Iberia to Ireland and
Britain long before Celtic culture ever entered Europe. It is only in
the last couple of centuries that people have started calling the
Irish and other related peoples "Celts".
> How pleasant therefore to se the DNA confirmation - and
> also because the old tale that the Welsh came from North Africa is now
> looking more as though it could be based in fact.
Only in your imagination. There is no genetic connection between the
Welsh and North Africa.
> Indeed, with only
> eight miles of sea today separating southern Spain from Africa, given
> the 300 feet minus depth of sea which made Britain part of Europe,
> there can be little reason to deny that tribes might have wandered
> over from Africa to Spain to see if the hunting was better - eight
> miles can be comfortably covered on foot in a morning.
Wrong again. Check out the following link:
http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG_2001_v68_p1019.pdf
High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Variation Shows a Sharp
Discontinuity and Limited Gene Flow between Northwestern Africa and
the Iberian Peninsula
Abstract: In the present study we have analyzed 44 Y-chromosome
biallelic polymorphisms in population samples from northwestern (NW)
Africa and the Iberian Peninsula, which allowed us to place each
chromosome unequivocally in a phylogenetic tree based on 1150
polymorphisms. The most striking results are that contemporary NW
African and Iberian populations were found to have originated from
distinctly different patrilineages and that the Strait of Gibraltar
seems to have acted as a strong (although not complete) barrier to
gene flow. In NW African populations, an Upper Paleolithic
colonization that probably had its origin in eastern Africa
contributed 75% of the current gene pool. In comparison, ~78% of
contemporary Iberian Y chromosomes originated in an Upper Paleolithic
expansion from western Asia, along the northern rim of the
Mediterranean basin. Smaller contributions to these gene pools
(constituting 13% of Y chromosomes in NW Africa and 10% of Y
chromosomes in Iberia) came from the Middle East during the Neolithic
and, during subsequent gene flow, from Sub-Saharan to NW Africa.
Finally, bidirectional gene flow across the Strait of Gibraltar has
been detected: the genetic contribution of European Y chromosomes to
the NW African gene pool is estimated at 4%, and NW African
populations may have contributed 7% of Iberian Y chromosomes. The
Islamic rule of Spain, which began in A.D. 711 and lasted almost 8
centuries, left only a minor contribution to the current Iberian
Y-chromosome pool. The high-resolution analysis of the Y chromosome
allows us to separate successive migratory components and to precisely
quantify each historical layer.
Diarmid Logan
> "Diarmid Logan" <diarmi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:622d5dd0.0409...@posting.google.com...
> > http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/23762.html
> >
> > We are not Celts at all but Galicians
>
> Ah yes more confused bull from the ill informed "Scottish" press.
>
> Perhaps Mr Donnelly has to do some more research on the origins of the "Gal"
> and (hard C) "Cel" parts of the words he just mentioned.
Why do you persist in believing in some "Celtic" race when there is no
proof that any such race existed?
> > BRIAN DONNELLY
> >
> > September 10 2004
> >
> > CELTIC nations such as Scotland and Ireland have more in common with
> > the Portuguese and Spanish than with the Celts of central Europe,
> > according to a new academic report.
>
> Maybe he should also look at the Celtic Film Festival which includes, er,
> Galician work.
Again, there were people living in Britain and Ireland long before
"Celtic" culture ever came to Europe.
> > Historians have long believed that the British Isles were swamped by a
> > massive invasion of Iron Age Celts from central Europe around 500BC.
>
> Not very good historians then. Others have also believed for some time that
> there was migration in a crescent shape from Iberia, through Ireland and
> into Scotland.
Are you disputing that many historians have for a long time bought
into the whole "Celtic invasion" theory?
> <snip>
>
> > He said: "It's well-known that there are cultural relations between
> > the areas but now this shows there is much more. We think the links
> > are much older than that of the Iron Age because it also shows
> > affinities with the Basque region, which isn't a Celtic region."
>
> Gosh Dairmid. That kind of knocks on the head your argument that the Scots
> are Germanic and only the Irish have some link with the Basques. And from an
> Irish university as well.
*Sigh* First of all, the work was done on mitochondrial DNA which is
passed from mother to child. Invaders are usually men who kill off the
local male population and take the local females as wives and so such
an invasion would not show up on the mitochondrial DNA. Second, I said
that the Scots were a mixture of Germanics and pre-Germanics (also
known as "Celts" for want of a better term).
> <snips>
>
> > It also found people in Ireland have more in common with Scots than
> > any other nation.
>
> Look Diarmid. We are kin.
But you are a mixture of Germanic and pre-Germanic. I am only
pre-Germanic.
> > There are also close links between Scotland and Ireland dating back
> > much further than the plantations of the 1600s when many Scots moved
> > to Northern Ireland in search of fertile farming lands, the research
> > showed.
>
> Gosh! Someone doesn't know where the Scotti originated from by the looks of
> things. Perhaps they've been listening too much to the Rev Paisly et al.
No. It is just that you are dealing with outdated information:
Early spin doctors rewrote our history
DAVID STEELE
THE belief that the Scots are descendants of Irish settlers who
crossed from Antrim in the sixth century is being dismissed as a myth
by an eminent archaeologist.
In a detailed research paper published by Glasgow University
yesterday, Ewan Campbell argues the claimed migrations of the Irish
into Argyll can be attributed to "a set of elite origin myths, finding
no support in archaeological evidence".
For many years Dr Campbell has been concerned that the received truth
that Scots kings were descended from Irish invaders was not the truth
at all.
He has concluded any migration between the west coast of Scotland and
north east Ireland was in the opposite direction to that previously
thought.
The doubts were planted in his mind when he took part in a excavation
at the royal fort at Dunadd in Argyll in the 1970s. The dig uncovered
strong evidence that this was the inauguration site of the early
Scottish kings but gave little indication of any Irish influence.
At this time, the kingdom of the Scots - Dalriada, consisting of
Argyll and some of the west coast islands - was a centre of
civilisation and trade.
Dr Campbell said: "Looking at the site made us wonder, how did it
start? It made us look at the original legends. If they were true you
would expect to see Irish types of settlements and artefacts. When we
looked for evidence of the Irish origin, there was none.
Dr Campbell said of the accepted belief: "This apparently incorrect
account was done by medieval spin doctors for political reasons - to
further the claims to the Scottish throne of descendants of Kenneth
MacAlpine. It was an early example of an Orwellian rewrite of
history."
Diarmid Logan
Not Celts since they have been in northern Iberia far longer than
"Celtic" culture has been in Europe. Unfortunately, I don't think your
mind will ever be able to grasp that fact.
allan connochie
"Michilín" <mich...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:4146e8eb.669142@news...
> On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 11:38:35 +0100, "allan connochie"
> <al...@EASYNET.CO.UK> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Lyndon" <lyndon11bu...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> >news:ci6aii$1qk$1...@titan.btinternet.com...
> >>
> >> "Diarmid Logan" <diarmi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:622d5dd0.0409...@posting.google.com...
> >> > http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/23762.html
> >> >
> >> > We are not Celts at all but Galicians
> >> >
> >> So isn't this confirming what we already believed, rather than changing
> >the
> >> face of history?
> >
> >
> >In a word yes! It's yet another non-story. The journalist claims we're
not
> >Celts but are descended from folk in northern Spain. He seems to not
> >realise that Celtic languages were spoken there too. Celtiberian for
> >instance. I can't see that any of this proves a migration from that area
> >anyway.
>
> Notwithstanding, the Celts of Galicia emigrated to Ireland.
They may well have done or at least some of them may have done. I didn't
say they did and didn't say they didn't. I just said that these genetic
similarities don't prove anything. I don't think we can take old myth and
legend as positive proof but at the same time I don't think it should be
dismissed either.
cheers
Allan
allan connochie
"grey$hawk" <ggggreyhawk$mail*@comccccast.net> wrote in message
news:jvSdnRuLWq3...@comcast.com...
Eh no! I think 'you' need to look at the time period the journalist was
talking about. He does not claim a migration occurred around 6000BC. In
fact he says it could have occurred anytime between 6000BC and 3000 years
ago [ie 1000BC]. He's not really putting himself on the line there is he?
>
> I think researchers are getting closer to affirming that Celticism,
> especially in
> the British Isles, is not necessarily genetic ancestry but more of an
> adoption of a language, culture, perhaps even religion from peoples
> who arose in the area of Austria/Switzerland around 1000-300BC. There
> was definitely some migration, and inter-breeding, but probably not any
> wholesale taking over of the whole British Isles by a bunch of
> displaced Celtic tribes from Western Europe.
And of course I never suggested there was a wholesale migration. In fact I
said the genetic similarities don't 'prove' any kind of migration happened
at all. It proves nothing other than folk on the western edge of Europe
sharing some similarities which we would probably expect anyway. I never
actually said what I personally thought but it probably falls in along with
what you suggest. Movement of peoples, ideas, language and culture without
displacement of the existing populations or perhaps without even marked
changes to the gene pool. In truth we don't know.
cheers
Allan
Allan
Jackie Mulheron
"Lyndon" <lyndon11bu...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:ci6aii$1qk$1...@titan.btinternet.com...
>
Yes, but there is one crucial factor you have to take on board here.
Scottish journalism is crap.
Jackie Mulheron
> "Jackie Mulheron" <JackieM...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:<2qmo8uF...@uni-berlin.de>...
> > "Diarmid Logan" <diarmi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:622d5dd0.0409...@posting.google.com...
> > > http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/23762.html
> > >
> > > We are not Celts at all but Galicians
> >
> > Ah yes more confused bull from the ill informed "Scottish" press.
> >
> > Perhaps Mr Donnelly has to do some more research on the origins of the
"Gal"
> > and (hard C) "Cel" parts of the words he just mentioned.
>
> Why do you persist in believing in some "Celtic" race when there is no
> proof that any such race existed?
My God! That's a bit like being called an anti-Semite by Hitler.
> > > BRIAN DONNELLY
> > >
> > > September 10 2004
> > >
> > > CELTIC nations such as Scotland and Ireland have more in common with
> > > the Portuguese and Spanish than with the Celts of central Europe,
> > > according to a new academic report.
> >
> > Maybe he should also look at the Celtic Film Festival which includes,
er,
> > Galician work.
>
> Again, there were people living in Britain and Ireland long before
> "Celtic" culture ever came to Europe.
Eschewing your Celtic inheritance now Diarmid?
> > > Historians have long believed that the British Isles were swamped by a
> > > massive invasion of Iron Age Celts from central Europe around 500BC.
> >
> > Not very good historians then. Others have also believed for some time
that
> > there was migration in a crescent shape from Iberia, through Ireland and
> > into Scotland.
>
> Are you disputing that many historians have for a long time bought
> into the whole "Celtic invasion" theory?
Where is "invasion" mentioned?
> > > He said: "It's well-known that there are cultural relations between
> > > the areas but now this shows there is much more. We think the links
> > > are much older than that of the Iron Age because it also shows
> > > affinities with the Basque region, which isn't a Celtic region."
> >
> > Gosh Dairmid. That kind of knocks on the head your argument that the
Scots
> > are Germanic and only the Irish have some link with the Basques. And
from an
> > Irish university as well.
>
> *Sigh* First of all, the work was done on mitochondrial DNA which is
> passed from mother to child. Invaders are usually men who kill off the
> local male population and take the local females as wives and so such
> an invasion would not show up on the mitochondrial DNA. Second, I said
> that the Scots were a mixture of Germanics and pre-Germanics (also
> known as "Celts" for want of a better term).
No. You said they had been displaced and pushed north. Nurse posted your
quotes.
> > > It also found people in Ireland have more in common with Scots than
> > > any other nation.
> >
> > Look Diarmid. We are kin.
>
> But you are a mixture of Germanic and pre-Germanic. I am only
> pre-Germanic.
Which musty make you inbred if you are so sure of that.
> > > There are also close links between Scotland and Ireland dating back
> > > much further than the plantations of the 1600s when many Scots moved
> > > to Northern Ireland in search of fertile farming lands, the research
> > > showed.
> >
> > Gosh! Someone doesn't know where the Scotti originated from by the looks
of
> > things. Perhaps they've been listening too much to the Rev Paisly et al.
>
> No. It is just that you are dealing with outdated information:
Nurse dealt with that as well. The connection should be quite self-evident
with the use of Gaelic along the western seaboard of Scotland.
Diarmid Logan
> news:ci6aii$1qk$1...@titan.btinternet.com...
> >
> > "Diarmid Logan" <diarmi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:622d5dd0.0409...@posting.google.com...
> > > http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/23762.html
> > >
> > > We are not Celts at all but Galicians
> > >
> > So isn't this confirming what we already believed, rather than changing
> the
> > face of history?
>
>
> In a word yes! It's yet another non-story. The journalist claims we're not
> Celts but are descended from folk in northern Spain. He seems to not
> realise that Celtic languages were spoken there too. Celtiberian for
> instance.
If you were capable of understanding what you had read you would see
that the ancestors of the Irish and the non-Germanic Scots left Iberia
long before "Celtic" culture ever entered Europe.
> I can't see that any of this proves a migration from that area
> anyway.
You mean the fact that the Irish and some Scots are genetically
similar to some Iberian populations does not prove a migration from
Iberia to Ireland and Britain?
> All it shows is that folk on the western Atlantic fringes of Europe
> have much in common.
Yes, common ancestors - at least for the non-Germanics.
> Which as you suggest, would be expected anyway.
> Likewise he talks of the close connection between the Scots and Irish going
> back well before the 1600s. Well again we all knew that anyway.You've got
> to wonder if they haven't anything better to do.
Once again you seem to be peddling the Irish invasion of Scotland
story. In reality, since Britain is closer to the continent that
Ireland is, it is likely that many of the ancestors of the Irish did
not come to Ireland directly but through Britain which would help
explain the similarity of Irish and Scottish mtDNA.
Diarmid Logan
No, because there was never any "Celtic" invasion of Ireland or
Britain. Your quote above implies that such a Celtic invasion
happened.
Steve
Which Iberia do you mean?
Glenallan
>> At this time, the kingdom of the Scots - Dalriada, consisting of
>> Argyll and some of the west coast islands - was a centre of
>> civilisation and trade.
>>
>> Dr Campbell said: "Looking at the site made us wonder, how did it
>> start? It made us look at the original legends. If they were true you
>> would expect to see Irish types of settlements and artefacts. When we
>> looked for evidence of the Irish origin, there was none.
>>
>> Dr Campbell said of the accepted belief: "This apparently incorrect
>> account was done by medieval spin doctors for political reasons - to
>> further the claims to the Scottish throne of descendants of Kenneth
>> MacAlpine. It was an early example of an Orwellian rewrite of
>> history."
Proto-Scottii-Orangianus no doubt.
Glenallan
Jackie Mulheron
"Glenallan" <glenal...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:414772b6$0$20253$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
You been watching Countdown Conundrums?
Jackie Mulheron
Some of them no doubt. And some being Provo-Scottii-Verdantii.
Michilín
wrote:
Well, when I was in North Africa, the place was crawling with
descendants of the Vandals who looked exactly what they were - a
blue-eyed Germanic tribe that crossed Europe in or around 200 - 400
AD, from north to south, beat up Rome, then crossed into North Africa
to settle the Roman cities running east from Algeria to Libya.
Michilín
sidheseeker
> sidhe...@ireland.com (sidheseeker) wrote in message news:<90f4624a.04091...@posting.google.com>...
> > diarmi...@gmail.com (Diarmid Logan) wrote in message news:<622d5dd0.0409...@posting.google.com>...
> > > http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/23762.html
> > >
> > > We are not Celts at all but Galicians
> >
> > A question Dermud.. who were the Galicians..?
>
> Not Celts since they have been in northern Iberia far longer than
> "Celtic" culture has been in Europe.
Enlighten me.. who are 'they'.. and.. where did 'they come from..?
Oh.. and by the way.. Galicia was named after one of the tribes
of Celts who settled there.. either the Galli or.. the Gallaecia..
thereby making us something other than Gaicians.. according to you..
and.. just FYI// the Celts settled Galicia before 600 BC..
One other thing.. who are 'we'..?
Glenallan
Ok Mulheron. Very droll. :-)
Michilín
He's a wit - no doubt of that!
Michilín
Diarmid Logan
> diarmi...@gmail.com (Diarmid Logan) wrote in message news:<622d5dd0.04091...@posting.google.com>...
> > sidhe...@ireland.com (sidheseeker) wrote in message news:<90f4624a.04091...@posting.google.com>...
> > > diarmi...@gmail.com (Diarmid Logan) wrote in message news:<622d5dd0.0409...@posting.google.com>...
> > > > http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/23762.html
> > > >
> > > > We are not Celts at all but Galicians
> > >
> > > A question Dermud.. who were the Galicians..?
> >
> > Not Celts since they have been in northern Iberia far longer than
> > "Celtic" culture has been in Europe.
>
> Enlighten me.. who are 'they'.. and.. where did 'they come from..?
It is difficult to give them a single name since the structure of
their society was likely tribal and so each tribe would have had its
own name.
> Oh.. and by the way.. Galicia was named after one of the tribes
> of Celts who settled there.. either the Galli or.. the Gallaecia..
> thereby making us something other than Gaicians.. according to you..
> and.. just FYI// the Celts settled Galicia before 600 BC..
*Sigh* Please read some books on archaeology. One you might find
interesting is "The Altantic Celts" by Simon James. "Celt" is nothing
more than a term that people started using in the last couple of
centuries to link together some tribes who shared some linguistic and
cultural characteristics. The "Celts" were never a distinct group of
people.
> One other thing.. who are 'we'..?
I have no idea who you are.
Diarmid Logan
The Vandals were Germanic, not Iberian.
Diarmid Logan
A peninsula of southwest Europe occupied by Spain and Portugal. It is
separated from the rest of Europe by the Pyrenees and from Africa by
the Strait of Gibraltar.
Diarmid Logan
> "Diarmid Logan" <diarmi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:622d5dd0.04091...@posting.google.com...
> > "Jackie Mulheron" <JackieM...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:<2qmo8uF...@uni-berlin.de>...
> > > "Diarmid Logan" <diarmi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:622d5dd0.0409...@posting.google.com...
> > > > http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/23762.html
> > > >
> > > > We are not Celts at all but Galicians
> > >
> > > Ah yes more confused bull from the ill informed "Scottish" press.
> > >
> > > Perhaps Mr Donnelly has to do some more research on the origins of the
> "Gal"
> > > and (hard C) "Cel" parts of the words he just mentioned.
> >
> > Why do you persist in believing in some "Celtic" race when there is no
> > proof that any such race existed?
>
> My God! That's a bit like being called an anti-Semite by Hitler.
Could you please explain the above sentence?
> > > > BRIAN DONNELLY
> > > >
> > > > September 10 2004
> > > >
> > > > CELTIC nations such as Scotland and Ireland have more in common with
> > > > the Portuguese and Spanish than with the Celts of central Europe,
> > > > according to a new academic report.
> > >
> > > Maybe he should also look at the Celtic Film Festival which includes,
> er,
> > > Galician work.
> >
> > Again, there were people living in Britain and Ireland long before
> > "Celtic" culture ever came to Europe.
>
> Eschewing your Celtic inheritance now Diarmid?
The problem is that the ancient peoples of Ireland and Europe commonly
referred to as "Celts" were tribal groups which means that they would
not have any one name for themselves. Each tribe would call itself by
a distinct name to separate itself from the others.
> > > > Historians have long believed that the British Isles were swamped by a
> > > > massive invasion of Iron Age Celts from central Europe around 500BC.
> > >
> > > Not very good historians then. Others have also believed for some time
> that
> > > there was migration in a crescent shape from Iberia, through Ireland and
> > > into Scotland.
> >
> > Are you disputing that many historians have for a long time bought
> > into the whole "Celtic invasion" theory?
>
> Where is "invasion" mentioned?
I see that you didn't answer my question. Here is where invasion is
mentioned: "Historians have long believed that the British Isles were
swamped by a massive invasion of Iron Age Celts from central Europe
around 500BC." When you said: "Not very good historians then." You
seemed to be disputing that historians had believed in a Celtic
invasion of Ireland.
> > > > He said: "It's well-known that there are cultural relations between
> > > > the areas but now this shows there is much more. We think the links
> > > > are much older than that of the Iron Age because it also shows
> > > > affinities with the Basque region, which isn't a Celtic region."
> > >
> > > Gosh Dairmid. That kind of knocks on the head your argument that the
> Scots
> > > are Germanic and only the Irish have some link with the Basques. And
> from an
> > > Irish university as well.
> >
> > *Sigh* First of all, the work was done on mitochondrial DNA which is
> > passed from mother to child. Invaders are usually men who kill off the
> > local male population and take the local females as wives and so such
> > an invasion would not show up on the mitochondrial DNA. Second, I said
> > that the Scots were a mixture of Germanics and pre-Germanics (also
> > known as "Celts" for want of a better term).
>
> No. You said they had been displaced and pushed north. Nurse posted your
> quotes.
They had been displaced. How could a new group of people move into an
area without displacing those already there?
> > > > It also found people in Ireland have more in common with Scots than
> > > > any other nation.
> > >
> > > Look Diarmid. We are kin.
> >
> > But you are a mixture of Germanic and pre-Germanic. I am only
> > pre-Germanic.
>
> Which musty make you inbred if you are so sure of that.
Inbreeding refers to someone who only marries members of their own
family, not members of their own ethnic group.
> > > > There are also close links between Scotland and Ireland dating back
> > > > much further than the plantations of the 1600s when many Scots moved
> > > > to Northern Ireland in search of fertile farming lands, the research
> > > > showed.
> > >
> > > Gosh! Someone doesn't know where the Scotti originated from by the looks
> of
> > > things. Perhaps they've been listening too much to the Rev Paisly et al.
> >
> > No. It is just that you are dealing with outdated information:
>
> Nurse dealt with that as well. The connection should be quite self-evident
> with the use of Gaelic along the western seaboard of Scotland.
No he didn't. Gaelic is the older version of Celtic which means that
it would have been in Scotland before Pictish. Therefore, there is no
need for any Irish invasion to explain Gaelic's presence in Scotland.
Diarmid Logan
> On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 11:38:35 +0100, "allan connochie"
> <al...@EASYNET.CO.UK> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Lyndon" <lyndon11bu...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> >news:ci6aii$1qk$1...@titan.btinternet.com...
> >>
> >> "Diarmid Logan" <diarmi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:622d5dd0.0409...@posting.google.com...
> >> > http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/23762.html
> >> >
> >> > We are not Celts at all but Galicians
> >> >
> >> So isn't this confirming what we already believed, rather than changing
> the
> >> face of history?
> >
> >
> >In a word yes! It's yet another non-story. The journalist claims we're not
> >Celts but are descended from folk in northern Spain. He seems to not
> >realise that Celtic languages were spoken there too. Celtiberian for
> >instance. I can't see that any of this proves a migration from that area
> >anyway.
>
> Notwithstanding, the Celts of Galicia emigrated to Ireland.
Wrong again! People had moved from Iberia to Ireland long before
Celtic culture appeared in Europe.
Michilín
wrote:
How fascinating to note that you didn't read even the three lines of
my post above your reply. I wrote:
>> blue-eyed Germanic tribe.
Which part of this complex phrase did you fail to grasp?
You might at least condescend to read what you are answering!
The credibility you initially aroused within me at the start of this
thread is now all dissipated and I realize once again that I am
negotiating with a racist fruit cake.
Michilín
Michilín
wrote:
>"Jackie Mulheron" <JackieM...@aol.com> wrote in message news:<2qoiqmF...@uni-berlin.de>...
>> "Diarmid Logan" <diarmi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:622d5dd0.04091...@posting.google.com...
>> > "Jackie Mulheron" <JackieM...@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:<2qmo8uF...@uni-berlin.de>...
>> > > "Diarmid Logan" <diarmi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> > > news:622d5dd0.0409...@posting.google.com...
>> > > > http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/23762.html
>> > > >
>> > > > We are not Celts at all but Galicians
>> > >
>> > > Ah yes more confused bull from the ill informed "Scottish" press.
>> > >
>> > > Perhaps Mr Donnelly has to do some more research on the origins of the
>> "Gal"
>> > > and (hard C) "Cel" parts of the words he just mentioned.
>> >
>> > Why do you persist in believing in some "Celtic" race when there is no
>> > proof that any such race existed?
>>
>> My God! That's a bit like being called an anti-Semite by Hitler.
>
>Could you please explain the above sentence?
Use words of one syllable - his reply to my last post made it clear he
hadn't even read the post but merely seized on one fact - and got it
wrong!
Michilín
Michilín
wrote:
>"Steve" <SteveJ...@boobah.plus.com> wrote in message news:<41471a24$0$46634$ed26...@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net>...
At least there's an encyclopaedia standing by - that's a hopeful sign!
Michilín
Michilín
wrote:
>mich...@shaw.ca (Michilín) wrote in message news:<4146e8eb.669142@news>...
<groan>
Michilín
Madra Dubh
Simon James.
Are you resurecting that long descredited "hisotrian"?
Diarmid Logan
The Germanic genetic content of North Africa will have no bearing on
any gene flow between North Africa and Iberia. Your comments about the
Vandals were totally irrelevant to the discussion.
> You might at least condescend to read what you are answering!
I do read your stuff. Unfortunately, it is often irrelevant to the
discussion as when you post stuff on Germanic Vandals in a discussion
on gene flow between North Africans and Iberians.
> The credibility you initially aroused within me at the start of this
> thread is now all dissipated and I realize once again that I am
> negotiating with a racist fruit cake.
Whatever.
Steve
"Diarmid Logan" <diarmi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:622d5dd0.04091...@posting.google.com...
> "Steve" <SteveJ...@boobah.plus.com> wrote in message
news:<41471a24$0$46634$ed26...@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net>...
> > "Diarmid Logan" <diarmi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:622d5dd0.04091...@posting.google.com...
> > > sidhe...@ireland.com (sidheseeker) wrote in message
> > news:<90f4624a.04091...@posting.google.com>...
> > > > diarmi...@gmail.com (Diarmid Logan) wrote in message
> > news:<622d5dd0.0409...@posting.google.com>...
> > > > > http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/23762.html
> > > > >
> > > > > We are not Celts at all but Galicians
> > > >
> > > > A question Dermud.. who were the Galicians..?
> > >
> > > Not Celts since they have been in northern Iberia far longer than
> > > "Celtic" culture has been in Europe. Unfortunately, I don't think your
> > > mind will ever be able to grasp that fact.
> >
> > Which Iberia do you mean?
>
> A peninsula of southwest Europe occupied by Spain and Portugal. It is
> separated from the rest of Europe by the Pyrenees and from Africa by
> the Strait of Gibraltar.
Ahhh, that one. And there was me thinking you were meaning the one in the
Caucasus.
Diarmid Logan
Why do you consider him to be discredited? Because he disagrees with you?
Madra Dubh
There are those in his field who consider the man a "Celtiphobe".
Assuming they are even partially correct, it would cast doubt on his
writings about all things Celtic.
And no, I ain't gonna Google it up for you.
Bogman
Dairymaid is at it again. Did you know that potatoes were introduced into
Ireland from North Africa via Wales, and that a potato is stuffed into the
god of every dead Irishman before burial, but in the case of cremation the
potatoes is eaten nice and crisp! All of this has been proven by the DNA of
potatoes floating in St.George's channel!
Boggie is back
Bogman
WARPATH TO SCALP OLD DAIRYMAID - WHOOA!
sidheseeker
> sidhe...@ireland.com (sidheseeker) wrote in message news:<90f4624a.04091...@posting.google.com>...
> > diarmi...@gmail.com (Diarmid Logan) wrote in message news:<622d5dd0.04091...@posting.google.com>...
> > > sidhe...@ireland.com (sidheseeker) wrote in message news:<90f4624a.04091...@posting.google.com>...
> > > > diarmi...@gmail.com (Diarmid Logan) wrote in message news:<622d5dd0.0409...@posting.google.com>...
> > > > > http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/23762.html
> > > > >
> > > > > We are not Celts at all but Galicians
> > > >
> > > > A question Dermud.. who were the Galicians..?
> > >
> > > Not Celts since they have been in northern Iberia far longer than
> > > "Celtic" culture has been in Europe.
> >
> > Enlighten me.. who are 'they'.. and.. where did 'they come from..?
>
> It is difficult to give them a single name since the structure of
> their society was likely tribal and so each tribe would have had its
> own name.
Well.. since traces of no other culture other than Celtic has ever
been found in Galicia.. I thought you had some insight into who the
'they' you refer to were..
>
> > One other thing.. who are 'we'..?
>
> I have no idea who you are.
I.. am The Seeker of the Sidhe..
but.. since you put 'we' in the subject header.. which 'we' do you
mean..
simple enough for you..?
sidheseeker
> On 13 Sep 2004 16:52:30 -0700, sidhe...@ireland.com (sidheseeker)
> wrote:
>
> >diarmi...@gmail.com (Diarmid Logan) wrote in message news:<622d5dd0.0409...@posting.google.com>...
> >> http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/23762.html
> >>
> >> We are not Celts at all but Galicians
> >
> >A question Dermud.. who were the Galicians..?
>
> north of Portugal. Alll the European provinces named Galicia/Galizia,
> Galatia, Gaul, Galles, etc. are former Celtic regions.
>
> Michilín
I was asking Dermud if he actually knew which population group made up
the Galicians.. or.. perhaps he knows of some long lost culture prior
to the Celts in Calicia..
Madra Dubh
"Bogman" <bog...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:cidcun$83n$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
> We are not Kelts because our cilts are too short. WE ARE RED INDIANS ON
THE
> WARPATH TO SCALP OLD DAIRYMAID - WHOOA!
Here now, no stereotyping, yah whiskey guzzling thick Mick.
Diarmid Logan
In other words you can't back up your description of him as a
"discredited historian".
Diarmid Logan
T N Nurse <tnnurse...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <622d5dd0.04091...@posting.google.com>,
> diarmi...@gmail.com (Diarmid Logan) wrote:
>
>> "Madra Dubh" <cca...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>> news:<Jrq2d.379580$OB3.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
>> > "Diarmid Logan" <diarmi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> > news:622d5dd0.04091...@posting.google.com...
>> > > "Madra Dubh" <cca...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>> > news:<hE_1d.371395$OB3.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
>> >
>> > > > Are you resurecting that long descredited "hisotrian"?
>> > >
>> > > Why do you consider him to be discredited? Because he disagrees with
you?
>> >
>> > There are those in his field who consider the man a "Celtiphobe".
>> > Assuming they are even partially correct, it would cast doubt on his
>> > writings about all things Celtic.
>> > And no, I ain't gonna Google it up for you.
>>
>> In other words you can't back up your description of him as a
>> "discredited historian".
>
>he has. Your claim was that he was discredited only because he
>disagrees with the claims of the OP. It now appears that a fair few
>of his peers disagree with him and that is sufficient to back up
>his claim - unless you can show otherwise.
I have looked on Google and have found no evidence to back up the claim that
Simon James has been discredited. If you are aware of any sites that show
that he has been discredited then please point them out to me.
--
[Posted at boards.ie]
http://www.boards.ie/
Ireland's Bulletin Boards, News Groups, Chat Rooms
After Hours - Games - Technology - Work - For Sale
Michilín
wrote:
Ah sorry. The answer may be very different from mine. I suppose it all
depends on when he had his last shock treatment.
Michilín
Madra Dubh
Well, perhaps I was exaggerating a bit when I wrote "discredited historian".
He has his supporters as well as his detractors.
Madra Dubh
"Diarmid Logan" <diarmidno...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:414b1ce4$1...@news.boards.ie...
Rather look on Google for those who take issue with his views.
There's a fair number.
sidheseeker
And.. from Western Europe into Iberia.. people were on the move all
over Europe.. so.. what specific source can you quote for the above
statement..
Michilín
wrote:
He just "knows". That famous Celtic intuition.
Michilín
flink
a tic mic!
>
Madra Dubh
"flink" <fl...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:cijlhi$gdh$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
'Tis mesel' wot calls the lot of yez tic, mic.
;=)
Diarmid Logan
How about the fact that the Irish are closely related to the Basques
on the Y-chromosome? Will that do? Or are you now going to claim that
the Basques are really Celts?
Diarmid Logan
Look at the genetic evidence. The Irish are closely related to the
Basques on the Y-chromosome and the recent research shows that there
was no "Celtic" invasion of Ireland. The only way that the Irish can
be "Celts" is if the Basques are "Celts" too.
Diarmid Logan
Interesting that you can't provide any links to these people. Also,
the fact that others take issue with his views does not mean that he
has been discredited.
Diarmid Logan
*Sigh* Why don't you contact the scientists who said that the Irish
were related to the Galicians?
Diarmid Logan
> diarmi...@gmail.com (Diarmid Logan) wrote in message news:<622d5dd0.04091...@posting.google.com>...
> > sidhe...@ireland.com (sidheseeker) wrote in message news:<90f4624a.04091...@posting.google.com>...
> > > diarmi...@gmail.com (Diarmid Logan) wrote in message news:<622d5dd0.04091...@posting.google.com>...
> > > > sidhe...@ireland.com (sidheseeker) wrote in message news:<90f4624a.04091...@posting.google.com>...
> > > > > diarmi...@gmail.com (Diarmid Logan) wrote in message news:<622d5dd0.0409...@posting.google.com>...
> > > > > > http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/23762.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We are not Celts at all but Galicians
> > > > >
> > > > > A question Dermud.. who were the Galicians..?
> > > >
> > > > Not Celts since they have been in northern Iberia far longer than
> > > > "Celtic" culture has been in Europe.
> > >
> > > Enlighten me.. who are 'they'.. and.. where did 'they come from..?
> >
> > It is difficult to give them a single name since the structure of
> > their society was likely tribal and so each tribe would have had its
> > own name.
>
> Well.. since traces of no other culture other than Celtic has ever
> been found in Galicia.. I thought you had some insight into who the
> 'they' you refer to were..
If you have trouble accepting the fact that the Irish are not
descended from "Celtic invaders" then I suggest that you contact the
scientists who did the research.
> > > One other thing.. who are 'we'..?
> >
> > I have no idea who you are.
>
> I.. am The Seeker of the Sidhe..
No, I think you are a nutcase.
> but.. since you put 'we' in the subject header.. which 'we' do you
> mean..
> simple enough for you..?
The "we" comes from the title of the article which you would know if
you had read it.
Michilín
That doesn't sound authentic. You've got the grammar wrong for
Ireland.
Michilín
Madra Dubh
I stated in an earlier post that I was guilty of a wee bit of exaggeration
when I referred to the man as a "Discredited Historian"
There are those who disagree with his position thinking him a loon.
Others look upon him as a modern day prophet.
Guinnog65
news:622d5dd0.04091...@posting.google.com...
> Whatever.
Hey, great reasoning.
Michilín
wrote:
Basques. Another band of no-hope bombers, liars and cheats.
Yup I can acept that there is a close relationship. I have already
accepted your African ancestry.
Michilín
Michilín
wrote:
>sidhe...@ireland.com (sidheseeker) wrote in message news:<90f4624a.04091...@posting.google.com>...
Wrong. Acording to you, "Celt" is a term used to describe people
sharing cultural similarities. No mention was made of genetic
relationships.
Michilín
sidheseeker
> sidhe...@ireland.com (sidheseeker) wrote in message ?
> > >
> > > I have no idea who you are.
> >
> > I.. am The Seeker of the Sidhe..
>
> No, I think you are a nutcase.
Well.. in your case Dermud.. we don't have to think.. we know your a nutcase..
Diarmid Logan
If you really believe that there was a "Celtic" invasion of Ireland
then you should be able to find links to such evidence on the
Internet. I have been trying to find such links but have been
unsuccessfull which indicates that no such evidence exists. If you
have been luckier than I have been in finding such evidence then
please post the links to it so that I may check it out for myself.
Diarmid Logan
Why is it wrong for the Basques to fight for freedom from Spain? The
Basques are the indigenous people of that region and are therefore
entitled to their freedom.
> Yup I can acept that there is a close relationship.
So can I. The Basques and the Irish share a common desire to live free
of the rule of others.
> I have already
> accepted your African ancestry.
I have no idea what you mean by the above sentence. Was this meant as
an attack against me, the Irish or Africans? Or all three?
Michilín
wrote:
So why aren't they fighting for freedom from France too? They must be
happy with the way the French part of Euskadi is being run.
(Euskadi - the Basque country)
>
>
>> Yup I can acept that there is a close relationship.
>
>So can I. The Basques and the Irish share a common desire to live free
>of the rule of others.
Neiher of them have bee very sucessful, have they? Like the oppressed
American natives you are personally helping to keep subjugated.
>
>> I have already
>> accepted your African ancestry.
>
>I have no idea what you mean by the above sentence. Was this meant as
>an attack against me, the Irish or Africans? Or all three?
You ignorant know-nothing! DNA shows that we are all from Africa.
Start reading real science instead of the pseudo-scientific shit
you're always spouting like some Nazi racial purity propagandist..
Michilín
Michilín
wrote:
>
>If you really believe that there was a "Celtic" invasion of Ireland
>then you should be able to find links to such evidence on the
>Internet. I have been trying to find such links but have been
>unsuccessfull which indicates that no such evidence exists. If you
>have been luckier than I have been in finding such evidence then
>please post the links to it so that I may check it out for myself.
http://tinyurl.com/6f6a7 for related posts via Google
http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/iremaps.htm
Excellent site, dispassionate, well-written, credible.
Carefully details consensus that Celtic invasion may never have
happened, speculates on possible roots, esp, as Celts were reported
from Persia to Spain etc. and also east to China, it now seems.
Michilín
Raktizer Omheit
> http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/23762.html
>
> We are not Celts at all but Galicians
>
>
> September 10 2004
>
> CELTIC nations such as Scotland and Ireland have more in common with
> the Portuguese and Spanish than with the Celts of central Europe,
> according to a new academic report.
>
> Historians have long believed that the British Isles were swamped by a
> massive invasion of Iron Age Celts from central Europe around 500BC.
>
> However, geneticists at Trinity College in Dublin now claim that the
> Scots and Irish have more in common with the people of north-western
> Spain.
>
> Dr Daniel Bradley, genetics lecturer at Trinity College, said a new
> study into Celtic origins revealed close affinities with the people of
> Galicia.
>
> He said: "It's well-known that there are cultural relations between
> the areas but now this shows there is much more. We think the links
> are much older than that of the Iron Age because it also shows
> affinities with the Basque region, which isn't a Celtic region."
>
> He added: "The links point towards other Celtic nations, in particular
> Scotland, but they also point to Spain."
>
> Historians believed the Celts, originally Indo-European, invaded the
> Atlantic islands in a massive migration 2500 years ago.
>
> But using DNA samples from people living in Celtic nations and other
> parts of Europe, geneticists at the university have drawn new
> parallels.
>
> Dr Bradley said it was possible migrants moved from the Iberian
> peninsula to Ireland as far back as 6000 years ago up until 3000 years
> ago.
>
> "I don't agree with the idea of a massive Iron Age invasion that took
> over the Atlantic islands. You can regard the ocean, rather than a
> barrier, as a communication route," Dr Bradley said.
>
> Archaeologists have also been questioning the links between the Celts
> of eastern France and southern Germany and the people of the British
> Isles and the new research appears to prove their theories.
>
> The Dublin study found that people in areas traditionally known as
> Celtic, such as Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Brittany and Cornwall, had
> strong links with each other and had more in common with people from
> the Iberian peninsula.
>
> It also found people in Ireland have more in common with Scots than
> any other nation.
>
> "What we would propose is that this commonality among the Atlantic
> facade is much older, 6000 years ago or earlier," Dr Bradley added.
>
> There are also close links between Scotland and Ireland dating back
> much further than the plantations of the 1600s when many Scots moved
> to Northern Ireland in search of fertile farming lands, the research
> showed.
>
> However, the researchers could not determine whether fair skin,
> freckles, red hair and fiery tempers truly are Celtic traits.
>
> Stephen Oppenheimer, professor of clinical socio-medical sciences at
> Oxford, said that the Celts of western Scotland, Wales, Ireland and
> Cornwall were descended from an ancient people living on the Atlantic
> coast when Britain was still attached to mainland Europe, while the
> English were more closely related to the Germanic peoples of the
> interior.
>
> He said: "The English are the odd ones out because they are the ones
> more linked to continental Europe. The Scots, the Irish, the Welsh and
> the Cornish are all very similar in their genetic pattern to the
> Basque."
>
> The study headed by Dr Bradley was published in the American Journal
> of Human Genetics.
The Basques, like the Berbers of North Africa, do not even speak an
Indo-European language. The Sahara Desert was a sanannah from 26,000 B.C. -
20,000 B.C, and from 8,000 B.C.
Diarmid Logan
So you are now conceding that there was no Celtic invasion of Ireland?
Diarmid Logan
You will have to check with the Basques on that issue. I think that if
you looked up the name "Francisco Franco" you might get a better
understanding of their opposition to Spain.
> (Euskadi - the Basque country)
>
> >
> >
> >> Yup I can acept that there is a close relationship.
> >
> >So can I. The Basques and the Irish share a common desire to live free
> >of the rule of others.
>
> Neiher of them have bee very sucessful, have they? Like the oppressed
> American natives you are personally helping to keep subjugated.
So it is only alright to fight for your freedom if you are
successfull? In my opinion, an unsuccessfull war against colonialism
is better than submitting to oppression.
> >> I have already
> >> accepted your African ancestry.
> >
> >I have no idea what you mean by the above sentence. Was this meant as
> >an attack against me, the Irish or Africans? Or all three?
>
> You ignorant know-nothing! DNA shows that we are all from Africa.
So then it is alright for the British to invade other peoples'
countries and oppress their indigenous populations?
> Start reading real science instead of the pseudo-scientific shit
> you're always spouting like some Nazi racial purity propagandist..
The Nazis were admirers of British colonialism. I am not an admirer of
either the Nazis or British colonialism.
Diarmid Logan
Chuckie R. Law wrote:
>On 20 Sep 2004 08:00:26 -0700, diarmi...@gmail.com (Diarmid Logan)
>wrote:
>
>>*Sigh*
>
>Why sigh? Is your intellectual superiority offended by the opinions
>of mere mortals?
Yeah, right! <sarcasm>
>>Why don't you contact the scientists who said that the Irish
>>were related to the Galicians?
>
>And the substantial opinion that the Galicians are a Celtic people
>would bring you back to what conclusion?
As I have said previously, if you have a problem with the scientist's research
then I suggest that you contact them.
--
[Posted at boards.ie]
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Diarmid Logan
Chuckie R. Law wrote:
>On 20 Sep 2004 08:02:44 -0700, diarmi...@gmail.com (Diarmid Logan)
>wrote:
>
>>If you have trouble accepting the fact that the Irish are not
>>descended from "Celtic invaders" then I suggest that you contact the
>>scientists who did the research.
>
>opinion. One viewpoint amongst many.
What genetic research are you familiar with that conflicts with these findings.
>>> I.. am The Seeker of the Sidhe..
>>
>>No, I think you are a nutcase.
>
>Coming from the twit who claims that all Catholics on the island of
>Ireland are descended from the original Irish, this is laughable.
So you are saying that the Catholics are descended from British colonists
who converted to Catholicism and took on Irish names? For what purpose? So
they could experience oppression first hand?
Michilín
wrote:
Of course it is. God said it was. Hezekiah 14.21-22
And God looked down and saw that the earth was good but that it needed
order and said, Go forth oh my Britons and take charge of the earth!
All right guv, they said and they rowed over to Ireland that very
night and said to the great unwashed, Yo! We are now in charge!
You want to argue with God, that's your lookout, mate!
>
>> Start reading real science instead of the pseudo-scientific shit
>> you're always spouting like some Nazi racial purity propagandist..
>
>The Nazis were admirers of British colonialism. I am not an admirer of
>either the Nazis or British colonialism.
The Nazis were showing a rare flash of good taste as opposed to their
usual bad taste such as negotiating with people like de Valera. whose
most moronic remark was made to my great-grandmother when he said he
would willingly give up the presidency of Ireland to be able to speak
Irish properly.
Just to remind you that some of us have a much better grip on Irish
affairs than you do, me ould Drogheda luster after Yankee dollars!
Michilín
Michilín
wrote:
You're beginning to sound like Gerry Adams, always feeding other
people lines they never said. A consensus is an agreement of opinions,
not a scienticfic fact.
(Which is why the phrase "a consensus of opinions" is bad *nglish; a
consensus is composed of opinions.)
If you find substantial proof that there was no Celtic invasion of
Ireland, then we shall have to sit down and ask ourselves where the
Irish learned their Celtic language from, won't we? Far be it from me
however, to do the research and rob you of the glory!
Michilín
Raktizer Omheit
"Michilín" <mich...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:4151ea93.8783269@news...
> On 22 Sep 2004 06:41:20 -0700, diarmi...@gmail.com (Diarmid Logan)
> wrote:
>
> >mich...@shaw.ca (Michilín) wrote in message
news:<4150cd0b.42899866@news>...
> >> On 21 Sep 2004 07:46:10 -0700, diarmi...@gmail.com (Diarmid Logan)
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >If you really believe that there was a "Celtic" invasion of Ireland
> >> >then you should be able to find links to such evidence on the
> >> >Internet. I have been trying to find such links but have been
> >> >unsuccessfull which indicates that no such evidence exists. If you
> >> >have been luckier than I have been in finding such evidence then
> >> >please post the links to it so that I may check it out for myself.
> >>
> >> http://tinyurl.com/6f6a7 for related posts via Google
> >>
> >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/iremaps.htm
> >> Excellent site, dispassionate, well-written, credible.
> >> Carefully details consensus that Celtic invasion may never have
> >> happened, speculates on possible roots, esp, as Celts were reported
> >> from Persia to Spain etc. and also east to China, it now seems.
> >
> >"Carefully details consensus that Celtic invasion may never have
happened"
> >
> >So you are now conceding that there was no Celtic invasion of Ireland?
non-Indo-European language. The Berbers and the Arabs are closely related to
each other in both ancestry and language. The Sahara Desert and the Arabian
deserts from 26,000 - 20,000 B.C, and 8,000 - 4,000 B.C. was a savannah.
Madra Dubh
<Chuckie R. Law> wrote in message
news:5g25l0daf9j84ecba...@4ax.com...
> On 22 Sep 2004 15:43:50 +0100, "Diarmid Logan"
> <diarmidno...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>The 'research' is far from conclusive and thus far only represents an
> >>opinion. One viewpoint amongst many.
> >
> >What genetic research are you familiar with that conflicts with these
findings.
>
> these findings?
>
> >>Coming from the twit who claims that all Catholics on the island of
> >>Ireland are descended from the original Irish, this is laughable.
> >
> >So you are saying that the Catholics are descended from British colonists
> >who converted to Catholicism and took on Irish names? For what purpose?
So
> >they could experience oppression first hand?
>
> include Normans, Vikings, Spanish and other sundry peoples.
Sundry Peoples?
Oh, you mean the Firblogs, Formorians, and Tuatha De Danaan.
Diarmid Logan
> On 22 Sep 2004 06:41:20 -0700, diarmi...@gmail.com (Diarmid Logan)
> wrote:
>
> >mich...@shaw.ca (Michilín) wrote in message news:<4150cd0b.42899866@news>...
> >> On 21 Sep 2004 07:46:10 -0700, diarmi...@gmail.com (Diarmid Logan)
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >If you really believe that there was a "Celtic" invasion of Ireland
> >> >then you should be able to find links to such evidence on the
> >> >Internet. I have been trying to find such links but have been
> >> >unsuccessfull which indicates that no such evidence exists. If you
> >> >have been luckier than I have been in finding such evidence then
> >> >please post the links to it so that I may check it out for myself.
> >>
> >> http://tinyurl.com/6f6a7 for related posts via Google
> >>
> >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/iremaps.htm
> >> Excellent site, dispassionate, well-written, credible.
> >> Carefully details consensus that Celtic invasion may never have
> >> happened, speculates on possible roots, esp, as Celts were reported
> >> from Persia to Spain etc. and also east to China, it now seems.
> >
> >"Carefully details consensus that Celtic invasion may never have happened"
> >
> >So you are now conceding that there was no Celtic invasion of Ireland?
>
> You're beginning to sound like Gerry Adams, always feeding other
> people lines they never said. A consensus is an agreement of opinions,
> not a scienticfic fact.
So what are you saying? Do you believe that there was a Celtic
invasion of Ireland, or not?
> (Which is why the phrase "a consensus of opinions" is bad *nglish; a
> consensus is composed of opinions.)
>
> If you find substantial proof that there was no Celtic invasion of
> Ireland,
How can I find proof of something that DIDN'T happen? That is like
saying that UFOs must exist if I can't prove that they don't exist.
> then we shall have to sit down and ask ourselves where the
> Irish learned their Celtic language from, won't we?
Apparently the phrase "cultural transmission" is totally alien to you.
> Far be it from me
> however, to do the research and rob you of the glory!
You mean the research where I look for evidence of something that
DIDN'T happen?
Diarmid Logan
Is this what passes for humour in your house?
> >> Start reading real science instead of the pseudo-scientific shit
> >> you're always spouting like some Nazi racial purity propagandist..
> >
> >The Nazis were admirers of British colonialism. I am not an admirer of
> >either the Nazis or British colonialism.
>
> The Nazis were showing a rare flash of good taste as opposed to their
> usual bad taste such as negotiating with people like de Valera.
When were they negotiating with de Valera?
> whose
> most moronic remark was made to my great-grandmother when he said he
> would willingly give up the presidency of Ireland to be able to speak
> Irish properly.
If he actually said that then I think it shows the great value he
placed on the Irish language.
> Just to remind you that some of us have a much better grip on Irish
> affairs than you do, me ould Drogheda luster after Yankee dollars!
How have you shown that you have a much better grip on Irish affairs
than I do?
Diarmid Logan
> <Chuckie R. Law> wrote in message
> > On 22 Sep 2004 15:39:23 +0100, "Diarmid Logan"
> > <diarmidno...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...
> > >As I have said previously, if you have a problem with the scientist's
> research
> > >then I suggest that you contact them.
>
> > distortion of it to support your own unique and positively peculiar
> > agenda.
>
> We've been around this loop many times. Logan was put in direct contact with
> one of the scientists whose work he was quoting and he claimed that the man
> was misinterpreting his own research.
Wrong again. I have never been in direct communication with any of the
researchers involved.
> Logan has shown many times that he doesn't understand the most basic
> principles of mammalian reproduction. Debating with him is a futile
> exercise. The proper technique is to use him as a benchmark for incorrect
> reasoning.
Check out the links for yourself if you don't believe me.
Diarmid Logan
Chuckie R. Law wrote:
>On 21 Sep 2004 07:50:36 -0700, diarmi...@gmail.com (Diarmid Logan)
>wrote:
>
>
>>Why is it wrong for the Basques to fight for freedom from Spain?
>
The only objectionable thing is oppression. Fighting against oppression is
never objectionable.
>>The Basques are the indigenous people of that region and are therefore
>>entitled to their freedom.
>
>Are you absolutely sure no other people occupied that territory before
>them and do you have substantive evidence to back up your opinions?
As far as I am aware there is no archaeological evidence to support the idea
that other people lived on that land before the Basques.
>>So can I. The Basques and the Irish share a common desire to live free
>>of the rule of others.
>
>The last time I checked, you were not appointed to speak on behalf of
>the Irish. Fer chrissakes, you don't even live in the island.
I don't claim to speak on behalf of the Irish, the Basques or anyone else.
The only person I speak for is myself.
Diarmid Logan
Chuckie R. Law wrote:
>On 22 Sep 2004 15:39:23 +0100, "Diarmid Logan"
><diarmidno...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>>On 20 Sep 2004 08:00:26 -0700, diarmi...@gmail.com (Diarmid Logan)
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>*Sigh*
>>>
>>>Why sigh? Is your intellectual superiority offended by the opinions
>>>of mere mortals?
>>
>>Yeah, right! <sarcasm>
>>
>>
>>>>Why don't you contact the scientists who said that the Irish
>>>>were related to the Galicians?
>>>
>>>And the substantial opinion that the Galicians are a Celtic people
>>>would bring you back to what conclusion?
>>
>>As I have said previously, if you have a problem with the scientist's research
>>then I suggest that you contact them.
>
>distortion of it to support your own unique and positively peculiar
>agenda.
If I am distorting the research then please tell me what the scientists are
really saying?