Seamus Heaney
michaelinkassel
understand them, and maybe some discussion would help (I have Opened Ground,
the anthology).
--
Michael D. Morrissey
Have URL, Will Travel: www.mdmorrissey.com
Cat
"michaelinkassel" <michael...@compuserve.de> wrote in message
news:3b8918a9$0$396$7d5a...@news.compuserve.de...
> Would anybody here like to discuss the poems of Seamus Heaney?
Discuss ? Try reading with your heart. If it speaks to you, if it evokes
images in your head, if it makes you laugh, cry, or think.. what is there to
discuss ??
I don't
> understand them, and maybe some discussion would help (I have Opened
Ground,
> the anthology).
>
Well, maybe I am intellectually lazy, but I would not bother my arse reading
a poem that doesn't speak to me. If it didn't, I am not sure that having it
explained would improve the way I feel about it.
Try Digging. Not awfully obscure, very evocative.
Cat(h)
KateH
> "michaelinkassel" wrote
> > Would anybody here like to discuss the poems of Seamus Heaney?
> > understand them, and maybe some discussion would help (I have Opened
> Ground,
> > the anthology).
> >
> Well, maybe I am intellectually lazy, but I would not bother my arse
reading
> a poem that doesn't speak to me. If it didn't, I am not sure that having
it
> explained would improve the way I feel about it.
> Try Digging. Not awfully obscure, very evocative.
Song
A rowan like a lipsticked girl.
Between the by-road and the main road
Alder trees at a wet and dripping distance
Stand off among the rushes.
There are the mud-flowers of dialect
And the immortelles of perfect pitch
And that moment when the bird sings very close
To the music of what happens.
It speaks to me, as Cat said, softly and sadly........
KateH
Michael Morrissey
news:3b8918a9$0$396$7d5a...@news.compuserve.de...
Hello Michael. Good to have this request. After all, the guy did win the
Nobel Prize, which means there must be something, and presumably a lot,
there to appreciate and enjoy. Now, where better to find this out than on a
newsgroup entitled "society/culture/irish"? You spawned a long thread on
"Dismissal of Assembly," so maybe you can do the same here. I know what
you mean. You don't want pompous asses pontificating on some new literary
theory they've read about (or invented), but just an answer to the question,
Does any of this stuff have any meaning or importance for you at all, either
musically or intellectually, or in any other way? Has anybody read any of
the poems and gotten a nice feeling, equivalent or similar to, let's say,
the feeling you get when you hear a song you like sung well? Do the poems
give anyone pleasure? If so, you want them to try to say why or how or at
least something about it, so that maybe you could get an inkling of what you
might be missing.
This will be a bit of a switch from the "Dismissal of Assembly" thread,
where I suspect everyone (maybe even you) had an ax to grind. Here it is
merely and solely a matter of understanding. Well, I wish you luck, and for
those of you to whom it may not be obvious yes, I use two email addresses,
and this is because one is cheaper during certain hours of the day (9-18).
Michael Morrissey
news:uwri7.4950$s5.6...@news.indigo.ie...
"Explanations" in the literary mode are exactly what I have no use for,
since they are probably what has killed poetry for the great majority of the
(American and ?) population anyway. I'd just like to know, for example,
which poems you particularly like. Then, give me a chance to read it again
(I have the Opened Ground anthology and Field Work), and I'll see if I can
connect with any of the feelings you describe.
Ok, shit, it just occurs to me, How would I describe a song I like? Is that
the proper analogy? I would be very hard put, and probably unwilling.
Either you like it or you don't.
I think I misphrased my question. It should have been simply: What poems
do you especially like?
Learning all the time, I hope,
Michael Morrissey
"KateH" <hock...@innw.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:toksm7n...@corp.supernews.com...
of it is the kind of thing that I would like to "discuss." Can you and
would you care to attempt to describe some of the things the rest of the
poem "mean" or effect for you? Remember, I am asking from a position of
ignorance and have no foregone conclusions.
Terry McT
<cathy_ie@(spamfree)yahoo.com> wrote:
Perhaps our new friend would post a few of the poems? :)
Terry
Terry McT
<hock...@innw.nospam.net> wrote:
and his themes and images are ones that are common to most people.
Terry
George Veeraswami
Michael Morrissey wrote:
> "michaelinkassel" <michael...@compuserve.de> wrote in message
> news:3b8918a9$0$396$7d5a...@news.compuserve.de...
> > Would anybody here like to discuss the poems of Seamus Heaney? I don't
> > understand them, and maybe some discussion would help (I have Opened
> Ground,
> > the anthology).
> >
> > --
> > Michael D. Morrissey
> > Have URL, Will Travel: www.mdmorrissey.com
>
> Hello Michael. Good to have this request.
Why are you replying to yourself?
Tom Walsh
> Hello Michael. Good to have this request. After all, the guy did win the
> Nobel Prize, which means there must be something, and presumably a lot,
> there to appreciate and enjoy.
Not necessarily; a lot of Nobel prizewinners were mediocrities who have long
since sunk without trace. Having said that, Heaney seems to be one of the few
who actually deserved it.
Tom
--
"The hand of God may well be all around us, but it is not, nor can it be, the
task of science to dust for fingerprints." - Robert Dorit
Cat
--
Michael Morrissey <morr...@01019freenet.de> wrote in message
news:9me2eq$1p3e3$1...@ID-14973.news.dfncis.de...
I suppose you need to be familiar with Ireland's hedgerows. Then you would
actually SEE the first stanza, whatever about understanding it.
Cat(h)
Conor Booze O'Brien
"Cat" <cath...@NORUBBISHPLEASEyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mPzi7.5087$s5.6...@news.indigo.ie...
Don't beat around the bush. Tell him what he wants to know. It's about the
only On-Topic thing going on in this newsgroup.
Conor
Cat
--
Michael Morrissey <morr...@01019freenet.de> wrote in message
news:9me209$1p319$1...@ID-14973.news.dfncis.de...
You DO ask silly questions.. however...
Here's one of my favourite - no doubt posted here thousands of times:
Digging
Between my finger and my thumb
The squat pen rests; snug as a gun.
Under my window, a clean rasping sound
When the spade sinks into gravelly ground:
My father, digging. I look down
Till his straining rump among the flowerbeds
Bends low, comes up twenty years away
Stooping in rhythm through potato drills
Where he was digging.
The coarse boot nestled on the lug, the shaft
Against the inside knee was levered firmly.
He rooted out tall tops, buried the bright edge deep
To scatter new potatoes that we picked,
Loving their cool hardness in our hands.
By God, the old man could handle a spade. Just like his old man.
My grandfather cut more turf in a day
Than any other man on Toner's bog.
Once I carried him milk in a bottle
Corked sloppily with paper. He straightened up
To drink it, then fell to right away
Nicking and slicing neatly, heaving sods
Over his shoulder, going down and down
For the good turf. Digging.
The cold smell of potato mould, the squelch and slap
Of soggy peat, the curt cuts of an edge
Through living roots awaken in my head.
But I've no spade to follow men like them.
Between my finger and my thumb
The squat pen rests.
I'll dig with it.
There are lots of reasons why I like that poem. I find it immensely visual
and generally sensual - in the primary sense of the word. I also love the
parallel between the pen and the spade or turf cutting implement. It
equates the writers' work (the pen pusher) with that, backbreaking,
immensely useful of the digger of potatoes or cutter of turf (without it, no
food, no heat). It strengthens the link between earthiness and poetry,
where there is only apparent contradiction.
I also like the portrayal of the father, which in some ways puts me in mind
of mine - also a man of the land, a down to earth perhaps even "hard" man,
who knew beauty when he saw or heard it.
Consider the above a brief stream of consciousness kind of babble, and just
find your own reasons to like or love (or indeed detest) one or other poem
:-)
Cat(h) (getting soft in de head)
KateH
> "KateH" wrote ...
Yes, of course........it's a Heaney poem. :)
> > Song
> >
> > A rowan like a lipsticked girl.
> > Between the by-road and the main road
> > Alder trees at a wet and dripping distance
> > Stand off among the rushes.
> >
> > There are the mud-flowers of dialect
> > And the immortelles of perfect pitch
> > And that moment when the bird sings very close
> > To the music of what happens.
> >
> >
> > It speaks to me, as Cat said, softly and sadly........
> >
> I take it this is one of Heaney's. I like the last two lines, but the
rest
> of it is the kind of thing that I would like to "discuss." Can you and
> would you care to attempt to describe some of the things the rest of the
> poem "mean" or effect for you? Remember, I am asking from a position of
> ignorance and have no foregone conclusions.
Oh Geeze......okay, but know that you need Donn and/or Karen to really "talk
poetry".
Now don't laugh.......this feels like recalling memories that are almost
beautiful beyond bearing. You can't forget them and you can't re-capture
them. The first part of the poem is like that for me. Certain places and
moments that stay with you, forever. The rowan and the alders will never be
exactly the same for him again..........something happened to him there and
then. Much the same as watching the moon come up through dark pines over a
campfire, two nights ago, for me. The moon will continue to come up, the
pines will be there........but they will always be the same in my memory and
still never be the same again, if I go back there.
There are moments in life that are like that... for me, anyway. Captured in
still-life, complete with smells and the feel of the air........moments that
were as close to ...........hmmmmmmnn, not exactly perfection, but rather
"the way things should be in this world". A kind of balance? I don't know
if that makes sense?
KateH
PS ...maybe Donn or Karen could tell us about the mud-flower reference?
:)
Cat
--
Féachadóir <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
news:1vilotgja4ju7u9qr...@4ax.com...
> Scríobh Cat <mPzi7.5087$s5.6...@news.indigo.ie> :
>
> >> > A rowan like a lipsticked girl.
> >> > Between the by-road and the main road
> >> > Alder trees at a wet and dripping distance
> >> > Stand off among the rushes.
>
> >I suppose you need to be familiar with Ireland's hedgerows. Then you
would
> >actually SEE the first stanza, whatever about understanding it.
>
> Poetry can be found in all sorts of unexpected places :)
>
> A land whose countryside would be
> bright with cozy homesteads,
> whose fields and villages would be
> joyous with the sounds of industry,
> with the rompings of sturdy children,
> the contests of athletic youths
> and the laughter of comely maidens,
> whose firesides would be forums for
> the wisdom of serene old age.
>
To quote de good Fadder: "Gasp !!"
But where are the Cross Roads, in all this ?? Is it the same as "play it
again Sam ??"
Cat(h) (illusions shattered)
Cat
--
Féachadóir <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
news:d0klotcngcfbb30nb...@4ax.com...
> Scríobh Cat <x9Ai7.5099$s5.6...@news.indigo.ie> :
>
> >But where are the Cross Roads, in all this ?? Is it the same as "play it
> >again Sam ??"
>
> Got it in one
>
> >Cat(h) (illusions shattered)
>
> I'll have to post the stuff he wrote to his wife when he was prison.
> That should be enough to take care of the cold austere image too.
>
Well, don't keep us all in suspense !
Cat(h) (is there such a thing as SCIbloids ?)
Alan Smaill
> Well, maybe I am intellectually lazy, but I would not bother my arse reading
> a poem that doesn't speak to me.
How do you know if it speaks to you or not, if you can't be arsed to read it?
--
Alan Smaill email: A.Sm...@ed.ac.uk
Division of Informatics tel: 44-131-650-2710
Edinburgh University
Michael Morrissey
"Cat" <cath...@NORUBBISHPLEASEyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mPzi7.5087$s5.6...@news.indigo.ie...
>
>
It's true that I don't get much of an image at all, and the only thing I can
picture of a hedgerows (I know these were the old "schoolyards") is a big
hedge, and I don't see that in these lines. I cannot picture a rowan or
alder tree off the top of my head either. I know they are trees, but I
can't fit them in with other imagery
constructively/meaningfully/emotionally.
Michael Morrissey
> Scríobh Conor Booze O'Brien <9mehv0$i5f$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk> :
>
> >Tell him what he wants to know.
>
> culture any more
>
> --
> An Féachadóir - Lig futh agus cluinfidh na clocha thú!
> Read the SCI FAQ: http://www.geocities.com/welisc/ifaq
Aw come on, guys. Somebody blow de whistle.
Michael Morrissey
> Scríobh Cat <mPzi7.5087$s5.6...@news.indigo.ie> :
>
> >> > A rowan like a lipsticked girl.
> >> > Between the by-road and the main road
> >> > Alder trees at a wet and dripping distance
> >> > Stand off among the rushes.
>
would
> >actually SEE the first stanza, whatever about understanding it.
>
>
> A land whose countryside would be
> bright with cozy homesteads,
> whose fields and villages would be
> joyous with the sounds of industry,
> with the rompings of sturdy children,
> the contests of athletic youths
> and the laughter of comely maidens,
> whose firesides would be forums for
> the wisdom of serene old age.
>
> An Féachadóir - Lig futh agus cluinfidh na clocha thú!
> Read the SCI FAQ: http://www.geocities.com/welisc/ifaq
This one, by contrast, I feel I understand fully. Except for the "would
be." How would you explain that?
Michael Morrissey
--
Michael D. Morrissey
Have URL, Will Travel: www.mdmorrissey.com
"Cat" <cath...@NORUBBISHPLEASEyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:x9Ai7.5099$s5.6...@news.indigo.ie...
If youse haven't won a Nobel Prize, youse have no right to talk in riddles.
Michael Morrissey
> Scríobh Cat <x9Ai7.5099$s5.6...@news.indigo.ie> :
>
> >But where are the Cross Roads, in all this ?? Is it the same as "play it
> >again Sam ??"
>
>
> >Cat(h) (illusions shattered)
>
> I'll have to post the stuff he wrote to his wife when he was prison.
> That should be enough to take care of the cold austere image too.
>
>
>
> --
> An Féachadóir - Lig futh agus cluinfidh na clocha thú!
> Read the SCI FAQ: http://www.geocities.com/welisc/ifaq
This is rather irritating. What kind of person would seek to destroy a
conversation of potential merit and usefulness by turning it into an
"insider" exchange that only the other lobsters in pail can understand?
Michael Morrissey
> Scríobh Cat <5jAi7.5102$s5.6...@news.indigo.ie> :
>
> "I am getting the Cúirt an Mheán Oíche all off by heart...If you read
> it I know you would like it. It is the nicest poem I have met in
> Irish. One of the principal pleasures I have in doing Irish poetry is
> to be able to read it with you when we are together."
> (in a letter from Lewes Jail, Easter 1917)
>
> This may explain why Cúirt an Mheán Oíche was banned in translation,
> but not in the original Irish...
>
> --
> An Féachadóir - Lig futh agus cluinfidh na clocha thú!
> Read the SCI FAQ: http://www.geocities.com/welisc/ifaq
This may or may not be of interest, but it is off topic. If you don't want
to talk about the individual poems at gut level (I mean the fucking words),
please start another thread.
Could we take it a little easy on the condescension pleased. I am not
impressed.
Michael Morrissey
Don't surrender to this bullying. I am not in suspense. I would much
rather hear what you think about either one of the poems--especially the one
you posted.
Michael Morrissey
> Scríobh KateH <tolj5qq...@corp.supernews.com> :
>
> >PS ...maybe Donn or Karen could tell us about the mud-flower reference?
>
> small country places.
>
> --
> An Féachadóir - Lig futh agus cluinfidh na clocha thú!
> Read the SCI FAQ: http://www.geocities.com/welisc/ifaq
Well, unless "mud flower" is an Irish expression, it is a metaphor asking us
to picture a flower in mud--which to me anyway is possible but
difficult--and once the image is there, I wonder why he didn't present it
differently. Like this he seems to assume that the collocation "mud flower"
is familiar.
You say a weed. Why? No, it does not appear to me that he is talking about
surviving dialects but "dialects" in general. Now, what does it mean to
you, I'm wondering, when another Irishmen speaks of "dialects."
Michael Morrissey
Yes, I see what you mean. What I am trying to connect with is, for example,
the lipsticked girl and the rowan tree. I can't see this as an image. Are
there red spots (or blossoms) on the rowan? Ditto for the rest.
The general sentiment you describe is of course familiar, but I think he is
trying to saying more than this, at least in the last two lines. Those are
the lines that stick with me, that I might remember and like to quote. You
can ponder them. My interpretation is that reality, events, are the "music"
(though I have a lot of trouble with this metaphor too) is so ephemeral and
mysterious, but beautiful, that even the bird's song almost--but does not
quite--capture it.
Michael Morrissey
news:270820011612226328%mcti...@earthlink.net.takeout...
I'll be happy too, but I cannot say I like any of them well enough--because
I am ignorant and trying to learn--to choose one. I am hoping others will
have some they like. If people will tell me what they particularly like and
want to discuss, I'll do the typing!
Michael Morrissey
--
Michael D. Morrissey
Have URL, Will Travel: www.mdmorrissey.com
"Alan Smaill" <sma...@dai.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:fwevgj9...@puffin.dai.ed.ac.uk...
Are you saying, like the post above, that you would like to have the poems
posted? As I said, fine, I'll do what I can, if you tell me which one(s)
you like and want to discuss.
Michael Morrissey
--
Michael D. Morrissey
Have URL, Will Travel: www.mdmorrissey.com
"Donn" <e.@.c.h.u.i.s.c.e.e.a.l.a.i.o.n.t.a> wrote in message
news:km7lot4scmmqedds8...@4ax.com...
> "michaelinkassel" <michael...@compuserve.de> wrote:
>
> >Would anybody here like to discuss the poems of Seamus Heaney? I don't
> >understand them, and maybe some discussion would help (I have Opened
Ground,
> >the anthology).
>
> I would personally recommend two books, to start with.
> The first for getting a glimpse of his interpretation of the traditional
> (and violent) nature of his birthplace, the second to place his writing
> alongside the context of the writers of his time, both north and south in
> Ireland.
>
> "Questioning Tradition, Language and Myth"
> The Poetry of Seamus Heaney
> Michael R.Molino
> The Catholic University of America Press 1994
> ISBN 0 8132 0796 7
> ISBN 0 8132 0796 5 (paperback)
>
> "Modern Irish Poetry"
> Tradition and Continuity from Yeats to Heaney
> Robert F. Garratt
> University of California Press
> ISBN 0 520 06603 0
>
>
> >Michael D. Morrissey
> >Have URL, Will Travel: www.mdmorrissey.com
>
>
> Please don't start using different aliases.
>
>
>
> --
> Donn
> Labhair an teanga Ghaeilge liom.
I am not using "aliases." I told you that I have two email addresses. I
sign all me posts the same way, and I do not use a fictional name.
Thanks for the references, but I will not consult them as yet. That is
exactly what I do not want--some prof. of literature telling me what I am
supposed to like and think. That, as I have already said, is why poetry is
dead for so many people. Read my other posts and you'll see what I'm after,
I think.
Michael Morrissey
>
>
> --
>
> Michael Morrissey <morr...@01019freenet.de> wrote in message
> news:9me209$1p319$1...@ID-14973.news.dfncis.de...
>
> You DO ask silly questions.. however...
> Here's one of my favourite - no doubt posted here thousands of times:
>
myself do not answer silly questions.
> Digging
>
> Between my finger and my thumb
> The squat pen rests; snug as a gun.
Clearly he sees the pen more as a gun than a spade, since he mentions it
first.
>
> Under my window, a clean rasping sound
> When the spade sinks into gravelly ground:
> My father, digging. I look down
>
> Till his straining rump among the flowerbeds
> Bends low, comes up twenty years away
> Stooping in rhythm through potato drills
> Where he was digging.
It is unusual for me to hear "rump" meaning "back" (vs. "backside" =
"arse"), and I wonder why he didn't say "back," since musically to me it
sounds just as good.
> The coarse boot nestled on the lug, the shaft
> Against the inside knee was levered firmly.
The "was" is jarring here, since up to now time reference is present. I
won't look it up just now, but it seems I have learned the word for the top
of the spade you put your foot on.
> He rooted out tall tops
Does this mean the old plants? Why "tops"--just the taller ones?
>, buried the bright edge deep
> To scatter new potatoes that we picked,
> Loving their cool hardness in our hands.
>
Don't get it. You dig potatoes, don't you, not "pick"? Then they threw
them around?
> By God, the old man could handle a spade. Just like his old man.
>
> My grandfather cut more turf in a day
> Than any other man on Toner's bog.
> Once I carried him milk in a bottle
> Corked sloppily with paper. He straightened up
> To drink it, then fell to right away
> Nicking
What does this word mean?
>and slicing neatly, heaving sods
> Over his shoulder, going down and down
> For the good turf. Digging.
Now, is he digging the potatoes up, or making holes to plant new ones.
>
> The cold smell of potato mould
Does this come from the field? Why are they moldering?
>, the squelch and slap
> Of soggy peat, the curt cuts of an edge
> Through living roots awaken in my head.
> But I've no spade to follow men like them.
More questions here.
> Between my finger and my thumb
> The squat pen rests.
> I'll dig with it.
Now, has he made some change from the beginning, where the pen was a gun?
To grow something instead of shooting something? Because he wants to be
just a plain old farmer guy, like his father, salt of the earth, with no
ambition to change the world?
>
>
>
> There are lots of reasons why I like that poem. I find it immensely
visual
> and generally sensual - in the primary sense of the word. I also love the
> parallel between the pen and the spade or turf cutting implement. It
> equates the writers' work (the pen pusher) with that, backbreaking,
> immensely useful of the digger of potatoes or cutter of turf (without it,
no
> food, no heat). It strengthens the link between earthiness and poetry,
> where there is only apparent contradiction.
> I also like the portrayal of the father, which in some ways puts me in
mind
> of mine - also a man of the land, a down to earth perhaps even "hard" man,
> who knew beauty when he saw or heard it.
> Consider the above a brief stream of consciousness kind of babble, and
just
> find your own reasons to like or love (or indeed detest) one or other poem
> :-)
> Cat(h) (getting soft in de head)
>
No, I don't think it is at all stream of consciousness or babble.
Michael Morrissey
news:3B8AB40C...@zqasxctul.com...
It was an attempt at humor and to be as cute as many others in this group
tries to be--and to identify myself as the same person with two email
addresses, in case anybody wondered.
Michael Morrissey
news:4x8zg5t...@lysithea.ucd.ie...
Glad to hear it. That means I'm not wasting my time.
Marjana
"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message news:vsrmotgo3q8q14p98...@4ax.com...
> Scríobh Michael Morrissey <9mfer9$1ojnn$8...@ID-14973.news.dfncis.de> :
>
> >Yes, I see what you mean. What I am trying to connect with is, for example,
> >the lipsticked girl and the rowan tree. I can't see this as an image. Are
> >there red spots (or blossoms) on the rowan? Ditto for the rest.
>
The Rowan Tree
"How rich and gay thy autumn dress,
Wi' berries red and bright."
http://www.acronet.net/~robokopp/scottish/rowan.htm
Michael Morrissey
news:prqmot0djtvkuf8lc...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 28 Aug 2001 08:06:56 -0700, "Michael Morrissey"
> <morr...@01019freenet.de> wrote:
>
>
> >The general sentiment you describe is of course familiar, but I think he
is
> >trying to saying more than this, at least in the last two lines. Those
are
> >the lines that stick with me, that I might remember and like to quote.
You
> >can ponder them. My interpretation is that reality, events, are the
"music"
> >(though I have a lot of trouble with this metaphor too) is so ephemeral
and
> >mysterious, but beautiful, that even the bird's song almost--but does not
> >quite--capture it.
>
>
> Eddie
>
> "But life is short and information endless;
> nobody has time for everything" Aldous Huxley
The answer is no (I live in Germany) but have ya never had the feelin', say
the morning after, that you might not have spent your time in the most
profitable way? Sort of like how you feel doing e-mail sometimes?
Michael Morrissey
news:vsrmotgo3q8q14p98...@4ax.com...
> Scríobh Michael Morrissey <9mfer9$1ojnn$8...@ID-14973.news.dfncis.de> :
>
example,
> >the lipsticked girl and the rowan tree. I can't see this as an image.
Are
> >there red spots (or blossoms) on the rowan? Ditto for the rest.
>
That's helpful to know.
Michael Morrissey
"Marjana" <marja...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ceLi7.2324$bl.1...@news.siol.net...
The Rowan Tree
Ok, I'm getting a picture, though many other trees have berries (e.g.,
cherries). Is there anything else particular to the rowan tree that would
enhance the juxtaposition with a lipsticked girl?
Michael Morrissey
> Scríobh Michael Morrissey <9mfer5$1ojnn$3...@ID-14973.news.dfncis.de> :
>
> >> Poetry can be found in all sorts of unexpected places :)
> >>
> >> A land whose countryside would be
> >> bright with cozy homesteads,
> >> whose fields and villages would be
> >> joyous with the sounds of industry,
> >> with the rompings of sturdy children,
> >> the contests of athletic youths
> >> and the laughter of comely maidens,
> >> whose firesides would be forums for
> >> the wisdom of serene old age.
>
> >be." How would you explain that?
>
> in every pot"
Not at all, I think. These are two very different visions. Is this a
Heaney? Is this all of it? It is not in Opened Ground.
Cat
"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
> Scríobh Michael Morrissey <9mg2bb$21eds$4...@ID-14973.news.dfncis.de> :
>
> >> >> Poetry can be found in all sorts of unexpected places :)
> >> >>
> >> >> A land whose countryside would be
> >> >> bright with cozy homesteads,
> >> >> whose fields and villages would be
> >> >> joyous with the sounds of industry,
> >> >> with the rompings of sturdy children,
> >> >> the contests of athletic youths
> >> >> and the laughter of comely maidens,
> >> >> whose firesides would be forums for
> >> >> the wisdom of serene old age.
> >>
> >> >This one, by contrast, I feel I understand fully. Except for the
"would
> >> >be." How would you explain that?
> >>
> >> Its the Irish equivalent of a Roosevelt Fireside Chat about "a chicken
> >> in every pot"
> >
> >Not at all, I think. These are two very different visions. Is this a
> >Heaney? Is this all of it? It is not in Opened Ground.
>
>
Ger, fess up. What have you had for breakfast ?? Rarely have I seen you
quite so kind and explanatory to a yank about matters Irish...
I am shocked ;-)
Cat(h)
Conor Booze O'Brien
"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
> Scríobh Conor Booze O'Brien <9mehv0$i5f$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk> :
>
> >Tell him what he wants to know.
>
> But sure if we said what we meant, it wouldn't be an example of Irish
> culture any more
The annals say: when the monks at Clonmacnoise
Were all at prayers inside the oratory
A ship appeared above them in the air.
The anchor dragged along behind so deep
It hooked itself into the altar rails
And then, as the big hull rocked to a standstill,
A crewman shinned and grappled down the rope
And struggled to release it. But in vain.
"This man can't bear our life down here and will drown,"
The abbot said, "unless we help him." So
They did, the freed ship sailed, and the man climbed back
Out of the marvellous as he had known it.
from Seeing Things 1991
Cat
Rowan trees are also one of the most beautiful native trees of Ireland.
Near me in the Wicklow mountains, there are some really beautiful ones, with
gnarled trunks and branches, in some ways similar to the hawthorns, which
also grow in the same areas. Also, the foliage of the rowan turns red at
the same time as the berries ripen. I guess part of why I love rowans is
that they also grow in my native land, in highish altitudes.
Just one last suggestion: why do you have to overanalyse every word... why
not just let your heart feel its way ? I heard you say that the
overanalysing is what turns kids off poetry in school, and I agree
wholeheartedly. I used to have regular rows with my literature teachers
because I felt my interpretations and feelings about poems were as valid as
the "official version" they used to peddle to me. Yet, I found you guilty
of the very same nitpicking of every word as used to drive me insane... I
can hear aliterations, I don't have to have someone point them out to me...
Cat(h)
>
>
>
westprog++
>
>"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
I think that he foresaw an upsurge in faux-Heaney constructed from Dev
speeches overrunning the thread. I don't know who would do such a
thing.
J/
SOTW: "Catdog"
"Who is to blame?
Is it not Enland?
Who Can remedy this state?
Is it not Enland?"
westprog++
>J/
>SOTW: "Catdog"
>"Who is to blame?
> Is it not Enland?
> Who Can remedy this state?
> Is it not Enland?"
No, it's "England". More drivel, I'm afraid. The thickosity index has
gone up by 17%.
J/
Shiny Boots of Leather
>who actually deserved it.
>
> Tom
And you'd be speaking the truth. His translation of Beowulf is amazing.
Personally, though fond of Kinsella, I'd like to see what his take on the Tain
would be.
Cyn
Cat
> This may or may not be of interest, but it is off topic. If you don't
want
> to talk about the individual poems at gut level (I mean the fucking
words),
> please start another thread.
>
> Could we take it a little easy on the condescension pleased. I am not
> impressed.
>
>
Threads evolve. That's what they do. They take a life of their own. They
are in no-one's ownership, perhaps least of all in that of the person who
started them out. That is very much part of their interest and attraction -
you launch a paper sail-boat on a tiny stream, and see it float down the
current, pushed and pulled hither and tither at the whim of elements you
have no control over, then sunk, then resurfacing, wet and
unrecogniseable.... If you are genuinely curious of things Irish, why don't
you sit back a little, listen and learn ? Why don't you "take it a little
easy" on the righteous indignation, and you might get less "condescension".
Mind you, as things are, you are getting minimal amounts... Ger is in
extraordinarily generous mood today.. that can't last...
Cat(h)
KateH
> Scríobh Michael Morrissey :
> >Yes, I see what you mean. What I am trying to connect with is, for
example,
> >the lipsticked girl and the rowan tree. I can't see this as an image.
Are
> >there red spots (or blossoms) on the rowan? Ditto for the rest.
>
Yes.......right now, BTW.
KateH
KateH
> Plain old farmer guys change the world in their own way.
One hill at a time, Ger.
KateH :)
KateH
> Ger, fess up. What have you had for breakfast ?? Rarely have I seen you
> quite so kind and explanatory to a yank about matters Irish...
> I am shocked ;-)
Special K?
KateH
KateH
> Jaysus..... have you guys no pubs to go to ?
Someone was just telling me about a Washington wine that you can
drink.......much earlier.
Kate(I was thinking ....like with lunch?)H :)
KateH
> This is rather irritating. What kind of person would seek to destroy a
> conversation of potential merit and usefulness by turning it into an
> "insider" exchange that only the other lobsters in pail can understand?
Wrong question. The question you're searching for is : Will I know when
I've been here too long *before* my claws are clacking against the keyboard?
KateH
KateH
> This may or may not be of interest, but it is off topic. If you don't
want
> to talk about the individual poems at gut level (I mean the fucking
words),
> please start another thread.
I suggest TWO new threads........" Famous Irish Love Letters" (since my book
of Yeats/Gonne letters just arrived) and "The Fucking Words of Seamus
Heaney". :)
> Could we take it a little easy on the condescension pleased.
Dream on. :)
KateH
KateH
> Yes, I see what you mean. What I am trying to connect with is, for
example,
> the lipsticked girl and the rowan tree. I can't see this as an image.
Are
> there red spots (or blossoms) on the rowan? Ditto for the rest.
The berries are a particular shade of orangy red (help me out here, Ger)
that almost exactly translates into lipstick color.......not on me, of
course......it'd be a very bad shade for my complexion. :)
> The general sentiment you describe is of course familiar, but I think he
is
> trying to saying more than this, at least in the last two lines. Those
are
> the lines that stick with me, that I might remember and like to quote.
You
> can ponder them. My interpretation is that reality, events, are the
"music"
> (though I have a lot of trouble with this metaphor too) is so ephemeral
and
> mysterious, but beautiful, that even the bird's song almost--but does not
> quite--capture it.
I can go there. I tend to see it from the "half full rather than half
empty" point of view, but it's still the same kinda thing. Music is one of
the few man-made things that can get you to that place, IMHO.
KateH
KateH
> Rowan trees are also one of the most beautiful native trees of Ireland.
We have them here. I have one in the yard that is presently covered in
berries and very beautiful. Every winter the Cedar Waxwings fly through and
fill that tree with riot-like bird fights......it's a wonder to
watch......and then they disappear again. We call them Mountain Ash, here.
> I heard you say that the
> overanalysing is what turns kids off poetry in school, and I agree
> wholeheartedly. I used to have regular rows with my literature teachers
> because I felt my interpretations and feelings about poems were as valid
as
> the "official version" they used to peddle to me. Yet, I found you guilty
> of the very same nitpicking of every word as used to drive me insane... I
> can hear aliterations, I don't have to have someone point them out to
me...
I like to hear both.......I think hearing Karen and Donn (and okay, Ger too)
"talk poetry" is cool because they can give the references meaning while
still touching on the underlying feelings. It seems to me that Michael's
roadblock is really just a very limited data base of Irish images to draw
from..........no shame there, not being Irish.
KateH
KateH
> "Donn" wrote ...
> > I would personally recommend two books, to start with.
> > The first for getting a glimpse of his interpretation of the traditional
> > (and violent) nature of his birthplace, the second to place his writing
> > alongside the context of the writers of his time, both north and south
in
> > Ireland.
> >
> > "Questioning Tradition, Language and Myth"
> > The Poetry of Seamus Heaney
> > Michael R.Molino
> >
> > Tradition and Continuity from Yeats to Heaney
> > Robert F. Garratt
Thanks Donn! :)
> > Please don't start using different aliases.
:) Coming from..........you? :)
> I am not using "aliases." I told you that I have two email addresses. I
> sign all me posts the same way, and I do not use a fictional name.
>
> Thanks for the references, but I will not consult them as yet. That is
> exactly what I do not want--some prof. of literature telling me what I am
> supposed to like and think. That, as I have already said, is why poetry
is
> dead for so many people. Read my other posts and you'll see what I'm
after,
> I think.
It's not always a negative experience, Michael........having someone tell
you what is "good". Sometimes.......folks who've studied something......
actually know what they're talking about.
KateH :)
KateH
> "Féachadóir" wrote
> > A mud flower is a weed, a dialect that managed to survive hidden in
> > small country places.
>
> Well, unless "mud flower" is an Irish expression, it is a metaphor asking
us
> to picture a flower in mud--which to me anyway is possible but
> difficult--and once the image is there, I wonder why he didn't present it
> differently. Like this he seems to assume that the collocation "mud
flower"
> is familiar.
My interpretation just from the context was very close to
Ger's.........because the "mud-flower of dialect" was contrasted with "the
immortelles of perfect pitch". I think Ger is telling you that "mud-flower"
IS an Irish expression. :)
KateH
KateH
> It's true that I don't get much of an image at all, and the only thing I
can
> picture of a hedgerows (I know these were the old "schoolyards") is a big
> hedge,
Hedges have been dated by how many species they contain.
The more species of trees and shrubs......the older the hedge.
Kate(have funding will travel)H :)
Can we talk about hedge plants, now?
Tom Walsh
> And you'd be speaking the truth. His translation of Beowulf is amazing.
It's about the only thing of his I've actually read. I'm going to be a heretic
and say I've never really got Heaney.
KateH
> No, Ger is saying that its a phrase fairly simple to figure out
Ger is saying ........he read at least one of my posts and I can no longer
put words in his mouth w/impunity..
Kate(will wonders never cease)H :)
KateH
> Shiny Boots of Leather writes:
> > And you'd be speaking the truth. His translation of Beowulf is amazing.
>
> It's about the only thing of his I've actually read. I'm going to be a
heretic
> and say I've never really got Heaney.
You need to hear the man read his work......
KateH
Michael Morrissey
news:JFMi7.5193$s5.6...@news.indigo.ie...
The difference is that I am questioning, not pontificating.
I'm glad to learn something about the rowan tree, but I'm sure we are still
giving short shrift to the metaphor. I think it is more than "red on
something nice" (girl = rowan tree). What does the expression "lipsticked
girl" bring to your mind? That, for me at least, is not the same as "pretty
girl"; in fact, it has rather negative connotations. I don't see any
further connection with the rowan, though.
Now, if you think we are "overanalysing," you shouldn't be doing it. No one
is forcing you to read my posts.
Michael Morrissey
"KateH" <hock...@innw.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:tonmubm...@corp.supernews.com...
Oh tanks much to you.
Michael Morrissey
KateH
> Oh tanks much to you.
Touchy, touchy ......touchy.
Kate(you're Irish then?)H :)
KateH
> As I said, I am not at all impressed.
Me neither, but here goes anyway :
The Spoonbait
(yes, by Heaney)
So a new similitude is given us
And we say : The soul may be compared
Unto a spoonbait that a child discovers
Beneath the sliding lid of a pencil case,
Glimpsed once and imagined for a lifetime
Risen and free and spooling out of nowhere ---
A shooting star going back up the darkness.
It flees him and it burns him all at once
Like a single drop that Dives implored
Falling and falling into a great gulf.
Then exit, the polished helmet of a hero
Laid out amidships above the scudding water.
Exit, alternatively, a toy of light
Reeled through him upstream, snagging on nothing.
You've never dug potatoes.........have ya fished?
KateH
Cat
--
Michael Morrissey <morr...@01019freenet.de> wrote in message
news:9mfer8$1ojnn$6...@ID-14973.news.dfncis.de...
> "Cat" <cath...@NORUBBISHPLEASEyahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:5jAi7.5102$s5.6...@news.indigo.ie...
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Féachadóir <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
> > news:d0klotcngcfbb30nb...@4ax.com...
> > > Scríobh Cat <x9Ai7.5099$s5.6...@news.indigo.ie> :
> > >
> > > >But where are the Cross Roads, in all this ?? Is it the same as
"play
> it
> > > >again Sam ??"
> > >
> > > Got it in one
> > >
> > > >Cat(h) (illusions shattered)
> > >
> > > I'll have to post the stuff he wrote to his wife when he was prison.
> > > That should be enough to take care of the cold austere image too.
> > >
> >
> > Well, don't keep us all in suspense !
> > Cat(h) (is there such a thing as SCIbloids ?)
>
> Don't surrender to this bullying. I am not in suspense. I would much
> rather hear what you think about either one of the poems--especially the
one
> you posted.
>
I did say how I feel about Digging - forgive me if I don't dissect every
word of it, that is not my approach to poetry, or indeed any form of
writing. I listen to the music of the words, visualise the images, and let
my heart and mind make free associations. The other text is not a poem, but
a famous speech by Eamonn de Valera, describing his vision of Ireland. It's
always made me smile, and a fair few along with me, although I am sure at
the time it was received differently. Then again, like many other
gobshites in the country I am sure, I was under the impression it involved
the "comely maidens dancing at cross roads"...
Cat(h)
Cat
--
KateH <hock...@innw.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:tonjnqq...@corp.supernews.com...
You mean regular bowel movement promotes generosity ? You could have a
point there, Kate :-)
Cat(h)
Cat
--
Eddie Wall <ed...@wall.ie> wrote in message
news:prqmot0djtvkuf8lc...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 28 Aug 2001 08:06:56 -0700, "Michael Morrissey"
> <morr...@01019freenet.de> wrote:
>
>
> >The general sentiment you describe is of course familiar, but I think he
is
> >trying to saying more than this, at least in the last two lines. Those
are
> >the lines that stick with me, that I might remember and like to quote.
You
> >can ponder them. My interpretation is that reality, events, are the
"music"
> >(though I have a lot of trouble with this metaphor too) is so ephemeral
and
> >mysterious, but beautiful, that even the bird's song almost--but does not
> >quite--capture it.
>
> Jaysus..... have you guys no pubs to go to ?
>
There's an SCI poetry night in O'Neill's on 3rd September, I'm told.. and
it's not a Friday night, so you have no excuse :-)
Cat(h)
KateH
> KateH wrote ...
> > Cat wrote
> > > Ger, fess up. What have you had for breakfast ?? Rarely have I seen
> you
> > > quite so kind and explanatory to a yank about matters Irish...
> > > I am shocked ;-)
> >
> > Special K?
> >
> point there, Kate :-)
I'm not sure, but I don't think he had it today.........ummm, errr the
Special K, that is. :)
We should try to find out what caused this reaction in Ger. It's a little
un-nerving. He was down-right pleasant there for a bit......I think he
might have even un-ploinked me for a moment or two.
KateH :)
Cat
--
Michael Morrissey <morr...@01019freenet.de> wrote in message
news:9mh0de$235em$1...@ID-14973.news.dfncis.de...
> The difference is that I am questioning, not pontificating.
>
You could've fooled me ;-)
> I'm glad to learn something about the rowan tree, but I'm sure we are
still
> giving short shrift to the metaphor. I think it is more than "red on
> something nice" (girl = rowan tree). What does the expression "lipsticked
> girl" bring to your mind? That, for me at least, is not the same as
"pretty
> girl"; in fact, it has rather negative connotations. I don't see any
> further connection with the rowan, though.
>
> Now, if you think we are "overanalysing," you shouldn't be doing it.
Not *we*. *You*...
No one
> is forcing you to read my posts.
Quite true. Until you stop eating starch for breakfast, I'll bear that
advice in mind ;-)
Cat(h)
Terry McT
<Féach@d.óir> wrote:
> Scríobh Conor Booze O'Brien <9mehv0$i5f$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk> :
>
> >Tell him what he wants to know.
>
> But sure if we said what we meant, it wouldn't be an example of Irish
> culture any more
That reminds me to the quote you used to have on your old web page in
which a Roman describes Celts, saying in part that the talk circles
around a subject never actually saying what they mean.
Terry
Terry McT
<sma...@dai.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> "Cat" <cathy_ie@(spamfree)yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > Well, maybe I am intellectually lazy, but I would not bother my arse reading
> > a poem that doesn't speak to me.
>
> How do you know if it speaks to you or not, if you can't be arsed to read it?
She's psychic and can tell from the title alone. Sometimes only the
cover of the volume is needed.
Terry
Terry McT
<morr...@01019freenet.de> wrote:
> "Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
> news:d0klotcngcfbb30nb...@4ax.com...
> > Scríobh Cat <x9Ai7.5099$s5.6...@news.indigo.ie> :
> >
> > >But where are the Cross Roads, in all this ?? Is it the same as "play it
> > >again Sam ??"
> >
> > Got it in one
> >
> > >Cat(h) (illusions shattered)
> >
> > I'll have to post the stuff he wrote to his wife when he was prison.
> > That should be enough to take care of the cold austere image too.
> >
> > Revisionists'R'Us
> >
>
> This is rather irritating. What kind of person would seek to destroy a
> conversation of potential merit and usefulness by turning it into an
> "insider" exchange that only the other lobsters in pail can understand?
>
Lobsters, possessing stellate ganglia rather than actual brains, are
not big fans of poetry.
Terry
KateH
> Michael Morrissey wrote ...
> > I'm glad to learn something about the rowan tree, but I'm sure we are
> still
> > giving short shrift to the metaphor. I think it is more than "red on
> > something nice" (girl = rowan tree). What does the expression
"lipsticked
> > girl" bring to your mind? That, for me at least, is not the same as
> "pretty
> > girl"; in fact, it has rather negative connotations.
Oh my.........I think he's got it! :)
> Quite true. Until you stop eating starch for breakfast, I'll bear that
> advice in mind ;-)
Do they have Special K in Germany?
Kate(or Cornflakes, for that matter)H
Terry McT
<morr...@01019freenet.de> wrote:
> "KateH" <hock...@innw.nospam.net> wrote in message
> news:tolj5qq...@corp.supernews.com...
> > Michael Morrissey wrote
> > > "KateH" wrote ...
> > Yes, of course........it's a Heaney poem. :)
> >
> > > > Song
> > > >
> > > > A rowan like a lipsticked girl.
> > > > Between the by-road and the main road
> > > > Alder trees at a wet and dripping distance
> > > > Stand off among the rushes.
> > > >
> > > > There are the mud-flowers of dialect
> > > > And the immortelles of perfect pitch
> > > > And that moment when the bird sings very close
> > > > To the music of what happens.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > It speaks to me, as Cat said, softly and sadly........
> > > >
> > > I take it this is one of Heaney's. I like the last two lines, but the
> > rest
> > > of it is the kind of thing that I would like to "discuss." Can you and
> > > would you care to attempt to describe some of the things the rest of the
> > > poem "mean" or effect for you? Remember, I am asking from a position
> of
> > > ignorance and have no foregone conclusions.
> >
> > Oh Geeze......okay, but know that you need Donn and/or Karen to really
> "talk
> > poetry".
> >
> > Now don't laugh.......this feels like recalling memories that are almost
> > beautiful beyond bearing. You can't forget them and you can't re-capture
> > them. The first part of the poem is like that for me. Certain places and
> > moments that stay with you, forever. The rowan and the alders will never
> be
> > exactly the same for him again..........something happened to him there
> and
> > then. Much the same as watching the moon come up through dark pines over
> a
> > campfire, two nights ago, for me. The moon will continue to come up, the
> > pines will be there........but they will always be the same in my memory
> and
> > still never be the same again, if I go back there.
> >
> > There are moments in life that are like that... for me, anyway. Captured
> in
> > still-life, complete with smells and the feel of the air........moments
> that
> > were as close to ...........hmmmmmmnn, not exactly perfection, but rather
> > "the way things should be in this world". A kind of balance? I don't
> know
> > if that makes sense?
> > KateH
> >
> > PS ...maybe Donn or Karen could tell us about the mud-flower reference?
> > :)
>
> Yes, I see what you mean. What I am trying to connect with is, for example,
> the lipsticked girl and the rowan tree. I can't see this as an image. Are
> there red spots (or blossoms) on the rowan? Ditto for the rest.
>
A selection of rowan-esque links, varying in degrees of relevance and
general fruitiness:
http://www.british-trees.com/guide/rowan.htm
http://www.treesforlife.org.uk/tfl.mythrowan.html
http://orgs.man.ac.uk/wildmed/images/glencoe.htm
http://www.contemplator.com/folk4/rowan.html
http://www.mystical-www.co.uk/treesr.htm#ROWAN
http://www.ladytia.com/celt/rowan.htm
Terry
Terry McT
<cathy_ie@(spamfree)yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
> news:444notcdd3u4h5chm...@4ax.com...
> > Scríobh Michael Morrissey <9mg2bb$21eds$4...@ID-14973.news.dfncis.de> :
> >
> > >> >> Poetry can be found in all sorts of unexpected places :)
> > >> >>
> > >> >> A land whose countryside would be
> > >> >> bright with cozy homesteads,
> > >> >> whose fields and villages would be
> > >> >> joyous with the sounds of industry,
> > >> >> with the rompings of sturdy children,
> > >> >> the contests of athletic youths
> > >> >> and the laughter of comely maidens,
> > >> >> whose firesides would be forums for
> > >> >> the wisdom of serene old age.
> > >>
> > >> >This one, by contrast, I feel I understand fully. Except for the
> "would
> > >> >be." How would you explain that?
> > >>
> > >> Its the Irish equivalent of a Roosevelt Fireside Chat about "a chicken
> > >> in every pot"
> > >
> > >Not at all, I think. These are two very different visions. Is this a
> > >Heaney? Is this all of it? It is not in Opened Ground.
> >
> > Its from a radio speech by de Valera, St Patricks Day, 1942
> >
>
>
> Ger, fess up. What have you had for breakfast ?? Rarely have I seen you
> quite so kind and explanatory to a yank about matters Irish...
> I am shocked ;-)
>
He used to do this sort of thing all the time.
Terry
The Pirate Queen
"Terry McT" <mcti...@earthlink.net.takeout> wrote in message
news:280820011934098088%
> > > > > A rowan like a lipsticked girl.
> > Yes, I see what you mean. What I am trying to connect with is, for
example,
> > the lipsticked girl and the rowan tree. I can't see this as an image.
Are
> > there red spots (or blossoms) on the rowan? Ditto for the rest.
come now Michael ..... red lipstick decorating a young girl's
lips.....moist, dewey and inviting... clusters of dewey red rowan berries
decorating the rowan tree inviting birds and others to explore
> http://orgs.man.ac.uk/wildmed/images/glencoe.htm
what a gorgeous pic of Glencoe..... makes me nostalgic....it's been many
years since I was there but it is one of the most beautiful places I've been
PQ
Terry McT
<hock...@innw.nospam.net> wrote:
Yes, but the German word for cornflakes probably has 27 letters in it.
Terry
K. E. Dennis
> [lots of snippage]
> ... why not just let your heart feel its way ? I heard you say that the
> overanalysing is what turns kids off poetry in school, and I agree
> wholeheartedly. I used to have regular rows with my literature teachers
> because I felt my interpretations and feelings about poems were as valid as
> the "official version" they used to peddle to me. Yet, I found you guilty
> of the very same nitpicking of every word as used to drive me insane... I
> can hear aliterations, I don't have to have someone point them out to me...
I get distracted for a few days by the Real World, & what happens in s.c.i.? A
poetry thread. I call this perverse.
I agree that no one should fell any obligation to like a poem or poet simply
because others do. A given poem does not speak to every person. [Wave anything
by Wordsworth near me, & I grow faint w/ ennui... yet a friend thinks I 'm a
boor for saying so.]
& too many people have had the same anhedonic experience you've had, of finding
their appreciation of a poem ruined by explanation, or @ least explanation of
the wrong kind.
It really doesn't matter, after all, that a poem is brilliantly crafted if it
leaves you cold.
OTOH, if a poem *does* catch you somehow – as this one did the first time I read
it, & still does w/ every re-reading – then looking more closely @ *how* the
poet achieved that effect can't rob it of its impact, IMVHO. This was the first
poem I ever posted to s.c.i., BTW
[http://homepage.eircom.net/~abardubh/poetry/bearla/poem001.html].
_The Underground_
There we were in the vaulted tunnel running,
You in your going-away coat speeding ahead
And me, me then like a fleet god gaining
Upon you before you turned to a reed
Or some new white flower japped with crimson
As the coat flapped wild and button after button
Sprang off and fell in a trail
Between the Underground and the Albert Hall.
Honeymooning, moonlighting, late for the Proms,
Our echoes die in that corridor and now
I come as Hansel came on the moonlit stones
Retracing the path back, lifting the buttons
To end up in a draughty lamplit station
After the trains have gone, the wet track
Bared and tensed as I am, all attention
For your step following and damned if I look back.
~~~~~
_The Underground _
Seamus Heaney
Station Island
1985, Faber & Faber Ltd.
~~~~~
Some of the reasons that I love _The Underground _ are purely personal, &
wouldn’t enhance anyone else’s understanding or feeling for it @ all. But there
are all sorts of riches both of structure & language here, & other pleasures as
well.
To me this poem seems both profoundly informed by longing, loss, & memory, yet
it’s filled w/ tension & hope. It’s a heartfelt tribute to the poet’s wife, for
whom the depth of his feeling is beautifully, & simply spoken, apparently
written @ a time of difficulty & separation – emotional, if not physical.
Look @ the homey & concrete words that tie it to the real world: not only the
London Underground, but the Proms, the Albert Hall, the ‘going-away coat’ – a
uniquely Irish term for the special clothes, not everyday wear, one buys for
going off to one’s honeymoon, or to univ., or even emigration. & the word
“japped,” which I learnt only quite recently [courtesy of Bro] is an Ulster
dialect word, possibly originally from Scots, that means what “spattered” would
to me – large drops of rain, or paint, splashing onto something.
Look @ the rhyme scheme, which includes some striking instances of internal
[so-called ‘feminine’ rhyme] – & words echo one another from line to line too,
tying the whole thing together. It’s perfectly possible just to appreciate it
for the sounds, the subtle alliterations [altho I feel a bit guilty mentioning
this @ all]... the way the rhythm of the stanzas moves rapidly, then slows, then
becomes steady, deliberate, like the careful retracing of steps back into the
past.
But if one also knows – as yrs of slow learning about Irish poetic trad’ns have
taught me – that these internal rhymes & word echoes are a very ancient style of
Irish poetic structure, it may add a little bit of appreciation for the poet’s
skill.
Look again, & there are 3 [possibly 4] allusions to myth/folktales, all
involving fleeing & looking back & personal transformations & loss.
1st: the ancient Greek tales of nymphs pursued by amorous gods - who escape
only by transforming themselves into flowers, trees, or other things. One such
nymph fleeing from Pan turned into wild reeds, from which he fashioned the first
flute [panpipes, of course]. Remember: in the poem, they are running to a
concert performance....
2nd: Hansel, who is led back to safety & home by Gretel's trail of [variously]
buttons, coals, etc. [until the parents confiscate everything but the
much-less-effective bread crumbs...], & who is later rescued again by her from
the devouring witch....
3rd: Orpheus, who could charm tears from the god of the dead w/ his music [which
was also poetry], walking out of Hades w/ Euridyke silently following him,
permitted to rescue his beloved wife from death only if he does not turn to look
@ her before they have reached the world of the living - turning back in doubt &
losing her forever...
& 4th: Lot's wife, fleeing w/ him from the destruction of her native city,
Sodom, forbidden to turn back & look, unable to stop herself from doing so, &
turning to a pillar of salt.... risking everything for a glance @ what she had
loved.
These allusions aren’t there merely to demonstrate Heaney’s learning – they say
something about how he experiences the memory of this honeymoon moment, looking
back [sorry] from another moment much less hopeful.
For me, recognising the mythic allusions only deepens the pathos of the poem, to
which I responded immediately & viscerally from the start. So de-constructing
the poem, in this case, hasn’t robbed it of the pleasure, but deepened it, &
made me see that a great poem can be distinguished from one that is ‘merely’
good by the many levels on which it works, & provokes, & pleasures.
But I doubt I would have felt the same way w/o those personal reasons I
mentioned, however magnificent the craft heaney displays in this poem.
respectfully submitted,
|K.E. Dennis den...@mail.montclair.edu
|My employer is not responsible for my opinions,
|regardless of how sensible they are.
K. E. Dennis
> cynl...@aol.com (Shiny Boots of Leather) writes:
>
> > And you'd be speaking the truth. His translation of Beowulf is amazing.
>
> It's about the only thing of his I've actually read. I'm going to be a heretic
> and say I've never really got Heaney.
Nothing to apologise about in that, Tom: no one poet reaches every reader, no
matter how fine his or her work may be. This is why diversity is a good thing.
K. E. Dennis
poetry & excessive download time, but I have to say: that was pure poetry
itself, & a fine example of how explanat'n can enrich understanding, IMHO.
<a deep bow of thanks>
Shiny Boots of Leather
>> Ger, fess up. What have you had for breakfast ?? Rarely have I seen you
>> quite so kind and explanatory to a yank about matters Irish...
>> I am shocked ;-)
>
>KateH
Maybe. If the Special K in question is ketamine.....
Cyn
Tom Walsh
> You need to hear the man read his work......
I have a tin ear when it comes to poetry.
Michael Morrissey
news:s6uootcvhbk1qpj5a...@4ax.com...
> Michael Morrissey wrote:
> >Donn wrote...
> >> "michaelinkassel" <michael...@compuserve.de> wrote:
> >> >Would anybody here like to discuss the poems of Seamus Heaney? I
don't
> >> >understand them, and maybe some discussion would help (I have Opened
> >Ground, the anthology).
>
> >> "Questioning Tradition, Language and Myth"
>
> >> Tradition and Continuity from Yeats to Heaney
>
I
> >sign all me posts the same way, and I do not use a fictional name.
>
> We have a couple (at least) who do that already.
>
>
> >Thanks for the references, but I will not consult them as yet. That is
> >exactly what I do not want--some prof. of literature telling me what I am
> >supposed to like and think.
>
>
> >That, as I have already said, is why poetry is
> >dead for so many people. Read my other posts and you'll see what I'm
after,
> >I think.
>
> yet.
>
> For you though, if you've never lived in Ireland, it might be difficult to
> get a grasp of Heaney without some grasp of the history, mythology,
> tradition, and language from which his work is fashioned.
>
>
>
> --
> Donn
> Labhair an teanga Ghaeilge liom.
Well, that's why I thought I'd try discussing the poems here. So far, it's
been great. I have learned that rowan trees have red berries.
Talking about the poem--despite what some say about "overanalyzing," helps
to focus. That in turn can bring new ideas and understanding. This applies
only to those who want to learn, however, and not to the pontificators.
bro
"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
> Scríobh Donn <0ciqotkl0d1hcotho...@4ax.com> :
>
> >(I don't have the list of Ogham trees to hand, but wasn't there also a
> >Calendar which used the names of trees?)
>
> I don't think the names go back as far as Ogham, but these are the
> names in Irish as given by Dinneen
>
> A ailm - elm
> B beith - birch
> C coll - hazel
> D dair - oak
> E eadh - aspen
> F fearn - alder
> G gath - ivy
> H uath - whitethorn
> I íodha - yew
> M muin - vine
> N nuin - ash
> O oir - broom
> P peith - dwarf elder
> R ruis - elder
> S sail - willow
> L luis - rowan ('quicken tree')
> T teithne - furze
> U ur - heath
>
>
> The Calendar is a New Age "discovery"
I might be out of my tree (again) here, but I saw Ogham script a while back
in a museum and reckoned it might be a form of 'written' hand-signing. It
certainly looked like it could easily be transcribed in a signing form. Any
thoughts?
bro
bro
"Donn" <e.@.c.h.u.i.s.c.e.e.a.l.a.i.o.n.t.a> wrote in message
> bro wrote:
> >I might be out of my tree (again) here, but I saw Ogham script a while
back
> >in a museum and reckoned it might be a form of 'written' hand-signing. It
> >certainly looked like it could easily be transcribed in a signing form.
Any
> >thoughts?
>
> http://www.bris.ac.uk/Depts/DeafStudies/teaching/bslsoc/Sessions/s9.htm
> "The written letters in this alphabet [Ogham] are grouped into four sets,
> each of five characters. Robert Graves took this as evidence that the
> written alphabet was actually designed this way because it was easy to use
> manually. The letters in each set are written using a number of nicks
made
> against a base line. Graves believed that the number of nicks shows which
> finger is used, and the angle and position of the nick relative to the
base
> line shows the position of the letter on the finger. The forefinger of
the
> right hand would have pointed out the letters, just as in the system
> described by Wilkins.
> ........
> In another method described by Graves, "leg Ogham" (or Cos-ogham), the
shin
> was used as the base line, and the fingers of the right hand were made to
> represent the nicks, according to the number and angle of fingers laid
> across the shin. There is an echo of this in the system described by
> Wilkins. The later alphabet had more letters than the Ogham alphabet (26,
> instead of 20) and they could not all be placed conveniently on the hand.
> Wilkins suggested laying different numbers of fingers across the side of
> the hand for some letters, just as they were laid across the shin in
Ogham"
>
ok..
question number two.
would there have been any reason why the writers of ogham script needed to
use a sign language? (I'm thinking here of some parallel to the american
indians, who apparently had a sign language as their only common language.)
Was there thought to have have been a common spoken language at the time?
what was it?
bro
The Pirate Queen
"bro" <b...@nospamweedaveshouse.org.uk> wrote
> would there have been any reason why the writers of ogham script needed to
> use a sign language? (I'm thinking here of some parallel to the american
> indians, who apparently had a sign language as their only common
language.)
> Was there thought to have have been a common spoken language at the time?
> what was it?
>
> bro
hmmmm I've never heard the thing about Native Americans having a common sign
language.... I would conjecture that the common sign language was something
used during stealth activities
PQ
bro
"The Pirate Queen" <p...@whothehellcares.com> wrote in message
news:9mjrf0$4ue$1...@news.jump.net...
No, apparently not. From what I know, the sign language was used mostly as a
trading language. Amerindians had a very diverse range of spoken language,
but traded extensively. I was wondering if the ogham script/ language was
used in a similar way.
bro
bro
"Donn" <e.@.c.h.u.i.s.c.e.e.a.l.a.i.o.n.t.a> wrote in message
> KateH wrote:
> >Michael Morrissey
> >> "Donn" wrote ...
> >> > "Questioning Tradition, Language and Myth"
> >>
> >> > "Modern Irish Poetry"
> >> > Tradition and Continuity from Yeats to Heaney
>
> >
> >:) Coming from..........you? :)
>
> Unfortunately I had no choice but to change nym, phone number and ISP.
Worked well.... :-)
bro
The Pirate Queen
"bro" <b...@nospamweedaveshouse.org.uk> wrote in message
news:Vqej7.5658$s5.6...@news.indigo.ie...
> > hmmmm I've never heard the thing about Native Americans having a common
> sign
> > language.... I would conjecture that the common sign language was
> something
> > used during stealth activities
>
> No, apparently not. From what I know, the sign language was used mostly as
a
> trading language. Amerindians had a very diverse range of spoken language,
> but traded extensively. I was wondering if the ogham script/ language was
> used in a similar way.
>
> bro
oh hell! do you expect me to admit that a nordie is teaching me something
about things in my own country?!! come on now.... that would be going
against all SCI tradition!!!! I mean we Americans CAN NEVER KNOW something
about Ireland that you Irish or Nordies don't know.... so don't be trying
this again even if you happen to be right because like the stubborn Irish I
will refuse to acknowledge that you might be right!
The nerve of some people! I hope Wee Dave makes a mess in his cage tonight
just for that!
PQ
The Pirate Queen
"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
> >hmmmm I've never heard the thing about Native Americans having a common
sign
> >language....
>
> for an example
hey I don't know it it's true or false...ask bro! oh are you getting your
American history from Mitchener novels now? ;-)
PQ
bro
"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
> Scríobh bro <Vqej7.5658$s5.6...@news.indigo.ie> :
>
> >No, apparently not. From what I know, the sign language was used mostly
as a
> >trading language. Amerindians had a very diverse range of spoken
language,
> >but traded extensively. I was wondering if the ogham script/ language was
> >used in a similar way.
>
> influenced areas. Whatever it was, it wasn't a code for communication
> across language barriers.
Ger, from what I've seen of your language, each village would have needed
some kinda sign language to know what the fuck the strangers were on about.
Anyway, you're ruining this for me. I hope you can sleep tonight.
bro
Terry McT
<Féach@d.óir> wrote:
> Scríobh Terry McT <280820011909137860%mcti...@earthlink.net.takeout>
> The Gauls are terrifying in aspect and their voices are deep and
> harsh. When they meet they converse with few words and in riddles, for
> the most part hinting darkly at things and using one word where they
> mean another. Also, they like to talk in superlatives, to the end that
> they might extoll themselves and belittle all others. They are also
> boasters and threateners and are fond of pompous language, and yet
> have sharp wits and are not without cleverness at learning. Among them
> are also to be found lyric poets whom they call bards. These men sing
> to the accompaniment of instruments much like lyres, and their songs
> are either of praise or of satire. Philosophers, as we would call
> them, and men learned in religious matters are unusually honoured
> among them and are called druids by them. -Diodorus Siculus
That's the one. Thanks for reposting it. :)
Terry
Terry McT
wrote:
> "KateH" <hock...@innw.nospam.net> writes:
>
> > You need to hear the man read his work......
>
> I have a tin ear when it comes to poetry.
But it's a very nice tin ear all the same.
Terry
Shiny Boots of Leather
>accent that gets you.
I think it's because he knows what he's saying....
nowhere near Mr Yeats' damned near operatic "I shall ariiiiiiise nhow, and
goh..."
Cyn
Michael Morrissey
O'Neill's?
--
Michael D. Morrissey
Have URL, Will Travel: www.mdmorrissey.com
"Eddie Wall" <ed...@wall.ie> wrote in message
news:au7potsa83b6nefv9...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 28 Aug 2001 23:38:35 +0100, "Cat"
> <cath...@NORUBBISHPLEASEyahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >There's an SCI poetry night in O'Neill's on 3rd September, I'm told.. and
> >it's not a Friday night, so you have no excuse :-)
>
> lol..........
>
> Eddie
>
> "But life is short and information endless;
> nobody has time for everything" Aldous Huxley
Michael Morrissey
"Donn" <e.@.c.h.u.i.s.c.e.e.a.l.a.i.o.n.t.a> wrote in message
> KateH wrote:
>
> >Song
> >
> >A rowan like a lipsticked girl.
> >Alder trees at a wet and dripping distance
> >Stand off among the rushes.
>
> from books and the web:
> -In Irish "Fearn", represented F in the Ogham alphabet
> -One of Ireland's most traditional and widely distributed trees, alders
may
> be found in damp areas, beside freshwater lough and along river banks,
> where their strong fibrous roots may help to keep the bank in place. They
> are widespread around Lough Neagh, and Lough Erne. All the parts of the
> tree have many uses.
> -The felling of an alder tree used to be a formally punishable offence
> -In ancient Ireland sections of alder trunks were covered with hide and
> used as round shields by warriors in battle
> -Red dye was made from alder bark and possibly may have been used as blush
> to paint the cheeks or as a lipcolour. [1] The wood was used in the
> manufacture of spinning wheels, carriage wheels, milk pails and other
dairy
> vessels
> -The wood is everlasting, 1000 year-old bridges made of alder are still
> around today [2]
> -Whistles were made by pushing out the pith of green shoots, and
apparently
> the alder is renowned as the best wood to use for whistles and pipes [3]
> -They have the ability to regenerate from stumps
>
> >There are the mud-flowers of dialect
> >And the immortelles of perfect pitch
> >And that moment when the bird sings very close
> >To the music of what happens.
>
> rowan is to the fore.....
> [2] One allusion for the use of the word "immortelles"
> (Aren't "immortelles" also those everlasting flowers in sealed glass
> sometimes placed on graves?)
> [3] "Perfect pitch"
>
>
> And the same for Rowans:
> -Rowan = "Luis", the letter L in Ogham
> -"Luise" glory, fame, brilliance, radiance
> (I don't have the list of Ogham trees to hand, but wasn't there also a
> Calendar which used the names of trees?)
> won't guarantee it
> -I came across one new-age reference to Rowans which said
> "Its round wattles, spread with newly-flayed bulls' hides, were used by
the
> Druids as a last extremity for compelling demons to answer difficult
> questions" !!! Maybe that's what Michael is doing to us ;-)
> -Rowans grow at the edges of swampy areas, another reason for the poor
> bogged-down alder to sulk
Donn, you're on my wavelength, and thanks for all the info. My dictionary
says immortelles are "a plant with flowers that retain their color when
dried."
These are excellent points, but I still ask myself what they have to do with
(in) the poem. To me the information you present is more interesting than
the poem (so far). Do they (help) make the poem work for you? Nothing in
this poem works for me, as I've said, except the last two lines--which I
guess is enough for a poem to accomplish in itself, but still the rest is
lost for me. Furthermore, I don't think I am understanding the last two
lines fully, either. "The music of what happens" jars with the pastoral
scene, and if he means "events" that jars with "music."
Michael Morrissey
> Donn <e.@.c.h.u.i.s.c.e.e.a.l.a.i.o.n.t.a> wrote:
> >KateH wrote:
> >
> >>Song
> >>
> >>A rowan like a lipsticked girl.
> >>Between the by-road and the main road
> >>Alder trees at a wet and dripping distance
> >>Stand off among the rushes.
> >
> >Some disorganised and probably unverifiable ideas about Alders, gathered
> >from books and the web:
>
apparently
> >the alder is renowned as the best wood to use for whistles and pipes [3]
>
> >>And the immortelles of perfect pitch
>
> broad sweep of thought between the mud at the base and the branches at the
> crown of the alder tree (the highest shoots were thought to yield the
> finest tunes). Vulgar dialect, lofty lyrics.
Again, interesting thoughts, but for me they are coming from you, not the
poem.
> Isn't it the drips from the tree that create the mud flowers anyway?
Don't see what you mean here. I still can't do anything with "mud flowers."
> >>And that moment when the bird sings very close
> >>To the music of what happens.
> >
> >[1] Are the alders sulking standing off in the background, now the showy
> >rowan is to the fore....
>
> And the rowan keeps its brilliant attractive red berries late into autumn,
> after the leaves have fallen from the alder.
Well, knowing this I guess this could be the idea, if the first stanza is
just about trees, a la Wordsworth or something, but if that is true and it
is just a landscape "painting," the effect on me is still nil.
> >[2] One allusion for the use of the word "immortelles"
> >(Aren't "immortelles" also those everlasting flowers in sealed glass
> >sometimes placed on graves?)
> >[3] "Perfect pitch"
>
> So, the by-road could be about choice, language, age.. what.
Don't follow your thought here.
Do you like the poem, by the way? Are there any poems of Heany that you do
like? I read all the poems in Opened Ground, looking for something,
anything, that I could recognize as beautiful or interesting, and failed,
except for one phrase (can't remember the poem) about the refridgerator
"whinnying to a stop." I like that because that's what it sounds like when
the motor shuts off and the whole thing shudders.
I have a lot of difficulty--like 99.9% of the population of Ireland, the US,
Germany, and the rest of the planet--with "modern poetry." I've fixed on
Heaney because he is an official "great," I'm interested in Ireland, and
this is an Irish newsgroup. If it were American I guess it would be Wallace
Stevens but I would be equally at a loss. What I cannot abide are
pontificators who 1) pretend to themselves to understand and enjoy when they
don't, and 2) pretend to others to do so. (These are primarily academics
but can be anybody else with delusions of grandeur.)
The approach we are taking is much more honest and more likely to yield
results. And if there are no results to be yielded, that may be the most
significant finding.
Michael Morrissey
news:9mkvmn$2pn2j$4...@ID-14973.news.dfncis.de...
I found the poem:
The Skunk
Up, black, striped and damasked like the chasuble
At a funeral Mass, the skunk's tail
Paraded the skunk. Night after night
I expected her like a visitor.
The refrigerator whinnied into silence.
My desk light softened beyond the verandah.
Small oranges loomed in the orange tree.
I began to be tense as a voyeur.
After eleven years I was composing
Love-letters again, broaching the word 'wife'
Like a stored cask, as if its slender vowel
Had mutated into the night earth and air
Of California. The beautiful, useless
Tang of eucalyptus spelt your absence.
The aftermath of a mouthful of wine
Was like inhaling you off a cold pillow.
And there she was, the intent and glamorous,
Ordinary, mysterious skunk,
Mythologized, demythologized,
Snuffing the boards five feet beyond me.
It all came back to me last night, stirred
By the sootfall of your things at bedtime,
Your head-down, tail-up hunt in a bottom drawer
For the black plunge-line nightdress.
He's pining for something, his wife I guess, but other than the
horse-refrigerator I still get nothing from this. The image of the woman
butt-up looking for her nightdress, like a skunk with its tail up, does
nothing for me either.
Michael Morrissey
>
> >And isn't a rush used inside a reed on Uilleann Pipes to adjust the
pitch?
> >"And the immortelles of perfect pitch"
>
> RUSH ~ a tuning device inserted into the bore of a melody pipe,
consisting,
> classically, of a straw-like plant stem shaved along its length so as to
be
> thicker at some selected spots than at others. Its function is to tune
> selected notes along the melody pipe, by effectively narrowing the bore
> more in some places than others.
> http://www.hotpipes.com/glossary.html
>
>
> --
> Donn
> Labhair an teanga Ghaeilge liom.
All of this is very interesting, Donn, but I don't see or hear any of it in
the poem. Let me try the opposite approach--taking it as straightforwardly
as possible.
"This a nice country scene here I want to describe. There's a rowan tree
over there with red berries, nice but sort of glaring, like girl with
lipstick. It's between two roads, this place. There is also a river or
stream nearby, with alder trees at it's banks, and it must have just rained.
(I'm putting it in this way so that only people who know alders grow on
river banks will understand that I also want to say that it had just
rained.) The sounds of people in these parts speaking their local dialect is
sometimes surprisingly beautiful, like finding a flower in mud. Likewise,
sometimes the bird's song .."
But there I get lost--right at the two lines I thought I liked!
Tom Walsh
> Tom Walsh wrote:
> > I have a tin ear when it comes to poetry.
>
> That must be a terrible affliction at concerts?
I don't go to concerts. I don't go anywhere.
Tom Walsh
> Does SCI mean this newsgroup?
Yep.
> O'Neill's?
Pub on Suffolk St. in Dublin where the great and good of s.c.i. assume
physical form and disport themselves with butter knives and blondes answering
to the name Denise.
Tom