A response to Anti-Muslim film
Ramabriga
A response to Fitna
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=651691429584856936&hl=en
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
fanabba
> A response to Fitnahttp://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=651691429584856936&hl=en
>
> ** Posted fromhttp://www.teranews.com**
fanabba
> A response to Fitnahttp://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=651691429584856936&hl=en
>
> ** Posted fromhttp://www.teranews.com**
UNDERSTANDING AND CONFRONTING THE THREAT OF ISLAMOFASCISM
Taqiyya is the Islamic doctrine of deceiving Kaffirs (Buddhists,
Christians, Hindus, Jews and other non-Muslims) about the true
nature of Islam.
Never believe anything written or said by a Muslim about Islam.
He/she is only practicing his/her Islamic duty of Taqiyya, and is
trying to deceive Kaffirs (non-muslims) about the true nature of
Islam.
ISLAM supports the doctrines of
JIHAD; Holy war against Kaffirs (non-Muslims)
until Islam rules the world and SHARIA
law is imposed on Kaffirs(non-Muslims).
SHARIA: Islamic Law that mandates subjugation
and oppression women and Kaffirs (non-muslims).
EDUCATE YOURSELF
To educate yourself about Islam, start by reading the free
article, ISLAM 101, here:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/islam101/
Watch the following movie:
ISLAM: WHAT THE WEST NEEDS TO KNOW
The movie is available for purchase on DVD.
It can also be seen for free online here:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-871902797772997781
This movie accurately describes the threat posed to
the non-Muslim world by Islam.
Then continue to educate yourself by going to the following web sites:
www.faithfreedom.org
www.islamundressed.com
www.jihadwatch.org
www.historyofjihad.org
www.prophetofdoom.net
www.thereligionofpeace.com
www.prophetmohammed.co.uk
Read the following books:
[1] "Why I am not a Muslim" by Ibn Warraq
[2] "The Truth About Muhammad" by Robert Spencer
[3] "Understanding Muhammad: The Psychobiography of Allah's Prophet"
by Ali Sina
[4] "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam" by Robert Spencer
[5] "The Sword of the Prophet" by Serge Trifkovic
[6] "Religion of Peace? Islam's War Against the World"
by Gregory M. Davis
[7] "Jihad in the West" by Paul Fregosi
[8] "The Prophet of Doom" by Craig Winn
[9] 'Tea with Terrorists"
by Craig Winn and Ken Power
[10] "America Alone" by Mark Steyn
SUFISM AND THE SUPPORT FOR SHARIA AND JIHAD IDEOLOGIES
There is a misconception, no doubt spread by practitioners of Taqiyya
(the Islamic doctrine of deception of non-Muslims), that Sufism is the
"peaceful"
and "spiritual" Islam. What they do not tell you is that Sufis have
not opposed
and have often supported the ideologies of SHARIA and JIHAD.
Al Ghazali, perhaps the greatest Muslim scholar and a Sufi wrote:
"One must go on jihad (i.e., warlike razzias or raids) at least once
a
year...one may use a catapult against them [non-Muslims] when they
are
in a fortress, even if among them are women and children. One may set
fire to them and/or drown them...If a person of the Ahl al-Kitab
[People
of The Book - primarily Jews and Christians] is enslaved, his
marriage
is [automatically] revoked.One may cut down their trees...One must
destroy their useless books. Jihadists may take as booty whatever
they
decide...they may steal as much food as they need... "
JOIN ORGANIZATIONS FIGHTING THE THREAT OF ISLAMOFASCISM
Join the local chapter of the organization
"ACT for America" by visiting the web site
www.actforamerica.com
Also, read the book "Because They Hate",
by Brigitte Gabriel, the founder of the organization, ACT for America.
Also, join the organization "United American Committee"
by visiting the web site:
www.UnitedAmericanCommittee.org
ISLAM AND THE UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS
Many Islamic countries refused to sign the Universal Declaration of
Human Rights,
sponsored by the United Nations, stating that the declaration was in
conflict with
Islamic values:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/Ohmyrus30816.htm
THE DEAD HAND OF ISLAM
From "The Dead Hand of Islam", a publication of the Australian
Rationalist Association: "The world would have been a much
better place, had Prophet Muhammad never been born."
Tanveer Mukhtar
I don't know why are you behaving so madly against muslims and Islam.
There is no concept of the so-called Taqiyya in Islam. In fact, Islam
says a muslim cannot be a true muslim if he deceives and tells lies.
My study of Islam has led me to conclude that there is a totally
distorted perception of islam and its followers. And i don't
understand why some people like Ramabriga keep on telling the lies
against Islam in their evil attempts to malign this religion.
Tambi Dude
> I don't know why are you behaving so madly against muslims and Islam.
> There is no concept of the so-called Taqiyya in Islam. In fact, Islam
> says a muslim cannot be a true muslim if he deceives and tells lies.
>
> My study of Islam has led me to conclude that there is a totally
> distorted perception of islam and its followers. And i don't
> understand why some people like Ramabriga keep on telling the lies
> against Islam in their evil attempts to malign this religion.
what does your study of islam say about those muslims who want
to leave islam (murtads). what should be done to them.
fanabba
>
> - Show quoted text -
You are practicing Taqiyya. The game is over.
You cannot fool Kaffirs any more.
The end of Islam is approaching.
Ramabriga
Chinese mafia
habshi
On Thu, 8 May 2008 05:34:19 -0700 (PDT), fanabba <fan...@aol.com>
wrote:
On May 8, 2:41=C2=A0am, Tanveer Mukhtar <tanveermukh...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On May 7, 11:52 pm, fanabba <fana...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 7, 2:04=EF=BF=BDpm, Ramabriga <Ramabr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > A response to Fitnahttp://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3D651691429=
584856936&hl=3Den
>
> > > ** Posted fromhttp://www.teranews.com**
>
> > UNDERSTANDING AND CONFRONTING THE THREAT OF ISLAMOFASCISM
>
> > Taqiyya is the Islamic doctrine of deceiving Kaffirs (Buddhists,
> > Christians, Hindus, Jews and other non-Muslims) =C2=A0about the true
> > nature of Islam.
>
> > Never believe anything written or said by a Muslim about Islam.
> > He/she is only practicing his/her Islamic duty of Taqiyya, and is
> > trying to deceive Kaffirs (non-muslims) about the true nature of
> > Islam.
>
> > ISLAM supports the doctrines of
>
> > JIHAD; Holy war against Kaffirs (non-Muslims)
> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0until Islam rules the world and=
SHARIA
> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0law is imposed on Kaffirs(non-M=
uslims).
> > SHARIA: Islamic Law that mandates subjugation
> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and oppression women and=
Kaffirs (non-muslims).
>
> > EDUCATE YOURSELF
> > To educate yourself about Islam, start by reading the free
> > article, ISLAM 101, here:http://www.jihadwatch.org/islam101/
>
> > Watch the following movie:
> > ISLAM: WHAT THE WEST NEEDS TO KNOW
> > The movie is available for purchase on DVD.
> > It can also be seen for free online here:http://video.google.com/videopl=
ay?docid=3D-871902797772997781
> > This movie accurately describes the threat posed to
> > the non-Muslim world by Islam.
>
> > Then continue to educate yourself by going to the following web sites:
>
> >www.faithfreedom.orgwww.islamundressed.comwww.jihadwatch.orgwww.histo...
>
> > Read the following books:
>
> > [1] "Why I am not a Muslim" by Ibn Warraq
> > [2] "The Truth About Muhammad" by Robert Spencer
> > [3] "Understanding Muhammad: The Psychobiography of Allah's Prophet"
> > by Ali Sina
> > [4] "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam" by Robert Spencer
> > [5] "The Sword of the Prophet" by Serge Trifkovic
> > [6] "Religion of Peace? Islam's War Against the World"
> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 by Gregory M. Davis
> > [7] "Jihad in the West" by Paul Fregosi
> > [8] "The Prophet of Doom" by Craig Winn
> > [9] 'Tea with Terrorists"
> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 by Craig Winn and Ken Power
> > [10] "America Alone" by Mark Steyn
>
> > SUFISM AND THE SUPPORT FOR =C2=A0SHARIA AND JIHAD IDEOLOGIES
>
> > There is a misconception, no doubt spread by practitioners of Taqiyya
> > (the Islamic doctrine of deception of non-Muslims), that Sufism is the
> > "peaceful"
> > and "spiritual" Islam. What they do not tell you is that Sufis have
> > not opposed
> > and have often supported the ideologies of SHARIA and JIHAD.
>
> > =C2=A0Al Ghazali, perhaps the greatest Muslim scholar and a Sufi wrote:
>
> > "One must go on jihad (i.e., warlike razzias or raids) at least once
> > a
> > year...one may use a catapult against them [non-Muslims] when they
> > are
> > in a fortress, even if among them are women and children. One may set
> > fire to them and/or drown them...If a person of the Ahl al-Kitab
> > [People
> > of The Book - primarily Jews and Christians] is enslaved, his
> > marriage
> > is [automatically] revoked.One may cut down their trees...One must
> > destroy their useless books. Jihadists may take as booty whatever
> > they
> > decide...they may steal as much food as they need... "
>
> > JOIN ORGANIZATIONS FIGHTING THE THREAT OF ISLAMOFASCISM
> > Join the local chapter of the organization
> > "ACT for America" by visiting the =C2=A0web sitewww.actforamerica.com
> > =C2=A0Also, =C2=A0read the book "Because They Hate",
> > by Brigitte Gabriel, the founder of the organization, ACT for America.
>
> > Also, =C2=A0join the organization "United American Committee"
> > by visiting the web site:www.UnitedAmericanCommittee.org
>
> > ISLAM AND THE UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS
> > Many Islamic countries refused to sign the Universal Declaration of
> > Human Rights,
> > sponsored by the United Nations, stating that the declaration was in
> > conflict with
> > Islamic values:http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/Ohmyrus30816.htm
>
> > THE DEAD HAND OF ISLAM
> > From "The Dead Hand of Islam", a publication of the Australian
> > Rationalist Association: "The world would have been a much
> > better place, had Prophet Muhammad never been born."
>
> I don't know why are you behaving so madly against muslims and Islam.
> There is no concept of the so-called Taqiyya in Islam. In fact, Islam
> says a muslim cannot be a true muslim if he deceives and tells lies.
>
> My study of Islam has led me to conclude that there is a totally
> distorted perception of islam and its followers. And i don't
> understand why some people like Ramabriga keep on telling the lies
> against Islam in their evil attempts to malign this religion.- Hide quoted=
sam...@hotmail.com
There has never been a a verse in the Quran about the killing
of apostates. If you can find one , I am interested to know -
this I challenge you.
Ref to the youtube link : Lecture by Abdal Hakim Murad (born
Timothy Winters - Prof of Islamic Studies - Cambridge
University).
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4TYOCR_6pFc&feature=related
There are Hadiths on the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad
(saw) about killing of apostates. However in that context , it
was a time of war , the Christian & Jews at that time converted
with an aim to desert the muslim army in the actual battlefield
thus weakning the muslim army in battle. The hadith was a
deterrance for such an act. If you need to choose , the quran
always takes predcedence over the hadith.
Are you sure you are not confused with the christian doctrine
on apostacy. Ref to the bible Deuteronomy Chapter 13 , verses
1 - 18 (ie. Deuteronomy 13 : 1 - 18 )
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=13&version=31
The punishment of apostasy in Christianity is DEATH, and not
only that, the one who tries to convert you is also to be put to
death. Note even whole cities are to be destroyed.
There are NO verses in the Quran that prescribes death for
apostates however the bible prescribes death for apostates.
sam1528
Tambi Dude
> The punishment of apostasy in Christianity is DEATH, and not
> only that, the one who tries to convert you is also to be put to
> death. Note even whole cities are to be destroyed.
>
> There are NO verses in the Quran that prescribes death for
> apostates however the bible prescribes death for apostates.
show me a christian country where leaving christianity is punishable
by death.
And I am sure you must be aware of many islamic countries *today*
where apostasy law forbids a muslim from converting out of islam,
or face death.
sam...@hotmail.com
> On May 9, 4:27 am, sam1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
--snip--
>
> show me a christian country where leaving christianity is punishable
> by death.
> And I am sure you must be aware of many islamic countries *today*
> where apostasy law forbids a muslim from converting out of islam,
> or face death.
You are veering off the point. The bible states that the penalty for
apostacy is death. The quran does not even state death or any
penalty for apostacy.
This discussion is about Islam advocating death for apostacy. So
far you have been bullshitting about Islam demanding death for
apostates. Now you have been caught lying.
The burden of proof is now on you. Can you proof the constitution
of which Islamic country demands death for apostates? Can you
also show proof that the so called death penalty has been carried
out?
sam1528
Tambi Dude
> You are veering off the point. The bible states that the penalty for
> apostacy is death. The quran does not even state death or any
> penalty for apostacy.
> This discussion is about Islam advocating death for apostacy.
> So
> far you have been bullshitting about Islam demanding death for
> apostates. Now you have been caught lying.
THE QURAN ON APOSTASY
Let’s start with the definition of apostasy. A simple definition of
apostasy is "leaving, departing away from, or deserting, one's
religion." Further, the Dictionary of Quranic Terms and Concepts[5]
defines apostasy:
APOSTASY
Arabic "irtidad". Traditional Islamic law prescribes the penalty
of death for a Muslim who commits apostasy. The punishment is not
stated in the Quran, but is said to be based on certain Hadith. The
advocates and the opponents of the said penalty have, in their attempt
to find Quranic support for their views, appealed to certain Quranic
verses, but the fact is that none of the arguments offered do full
justice to the Quranic context …
As noted above, the Quran does not come out and state explicitly that
apostates should be killed. All of the neutral references I examined
took this position. However, there are a number of Quranic verses that
pertain to apostasy and various Muslim scholars found in them the
justification to execute apostates. We will examine a few.
We’ll start with Abul Ala Mawdudi, a highly regarded Muslim scholar
from Pakistan who died last century. He argued for the death penalty
and against the liberal Muslims. Mawdidi’s work was translated and is
available online as "THE PUNISHMENT OF THE APOSTATE ACCORDING TO
ISLAMIC LAW"[6]. Some quotations are below. Bold emphasis is mine.
ABUL ALA MAWDUDI
1 The Problem of the Apostate's Execution from a Legal
Perspective
To everyone acquainted with Islamic law it is no secret that
according to Islam the punishment for a Muslim who turns to kufr
(infidelity, blasphemy) is execution. Doubt about this matter first
arose among Muslims during the final portion of the nineteenth century
as a result of speculation. Otherwise, for the full twelve centuries
prior to that time the total Muslim community remained unanimous about
it. The whole of our religious literature clearly testifies that
ambiguity about the matter of the apostate's execution never existed
among Muslims. The expositions of the Prophet, the Rightly-Guided
Caliphs (Khulafa'-i Rashidun), the great Companions (Sahaba) of the
Prophet, their Followers (Tabi'un), the leaders among the mujtahids
and, following them, the doctors of the shari'ah of every century are
available on record. All these collectively will assure you that from
the time of the Prophet to the present day one injunction only has
been continuously and uninterruptedly operative and that no room
whatever remains to suggest that perhaps the punishment of the
apostate is not execution.
…
A. The Proof from the Qur'an for the Commandment to Execute the
Apostate
Here I wish briefly to offer proof that will quiet the doubt in
the hearts of those who, for lack of sources of information, may think
that perhaps the punishment of death did not exist in Islam but was
added at a later time by the "mawlawis" (religious leaders) on their
own.
God Most High declares in the Qur'an:
But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due,
then are they your brethren in religion. We detail our revelations for
a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after
their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then
fight the heads of disbelief -- Lo! they have no binding oaths in
order that they may desist. (9:11,12)[1]
The following is the occasion for the revelation of this verse:
During the pilgrimage (hajj) in A.H. 9 God Most High ordered a
proclamation of an immunity. By virtue of this proclamation all those
who, up to that time, were fighting against God and His Apostle and
were attempting to obstruct the way of God's religion through all
kinds of excesses and false covenants, were granted from that time a
maximum respite of four months. During this period they were to ponder
their own situation. If they wanted to accept Islam, they could accept
it and they would be forgiven. If they wanted to leave the country,
they could leave. Within this fixed period nothing would hinder them
from leaving. Thereafter those remaining, who would neither accept
Islam nor leave the country, would be dealt with by the sword. In this
connection it was said: "If they repent and uphold the practice of
prayer and almsgiving, then they are your brothers in religion. If
after this, however, they break their covenant, then war should be
waged against the leaders of kufr (infidelity). Here "covenant
breaking" in no way can be construed to mean "breaking of political
covenants". Rather, the context clearly determines its meaning to be
"confessing Islam and then renouncing it". Thereafter the meaning of
"fight the heads of disbelief" (9:11,12) can only mean that war should
be waged against the leaders instigating apostasy.[2][7]
END OF QUOTE
http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/apostasy.htm
Oh I see, so the muslim countries having laws for leaving islam
are bullshitting islam. Well of course when islam is shit, BS is
ok.
>
> The burden of proof is now on you. Can you proof the constitution
> of which Islamic country demands death for apostates? Can you
> also show proof that the so called death penalty has been carried
> out?
Today apostasy is punishable by death in the countries of Saudi
Arabia, Qatar, Yemen, Iran, Sudan, Afghanistan and Mauritania.
Abdul Rehamn of Afghanistan . Have you forgotten the case so
soon. because of the begging bowl aid they get, Afghanistan was
forced to take a compromise and declare him a nut case and allowed
him to escape from afghanistan.
Iran: They declared death penalty to Salman Rushdie even though he
is not an iranian.
http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=72&release=352
sam...@hotmail.com
--snip
Ho hum , you still have not raise to my challenge of proving
where in the quran that explictly states - 'death to apostates'
Yusuf Ali translation of surah 9:11-12
ref : http://www.islam101.com/quran/yusufAli/QURAN/9.htm
Now you are practicing deception or the principle of
equivocation. What does surah 9:1 - 13 state? Notice you
conveniently left out verses 1 all the way to 10 & 13.
In context , this surah from 1 - 13 stated of alliance between
the pagans & muslims at that time. The Quran states that
if the alliance agreement or COVANENT is broken by the
pagans and upon them attcking the muslims , permission is
given to go to war. If they stand down and repent (which means
do not want to wage war , in this context) , each goes their
own way.
So here , what does COVANENT has got to do with apostacy?
In surah 9:1-13 , covanent in the context of the verses of this
surah means agreement between the pagans and muslims ,
not conversion to Islam. However the article tried to twist the
word covenent to mean conversion to Islam.
On the other hand , lets take a conformist approach and agree
on the fact that in the context , 'covanent means conversion'.
In verse 13 ,
13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to
expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the
first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah
Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!
Therefore permission is given to fight upon the muslims being
attacked first.
Either which way , your argument is screwed if you are trying
point out that the Quran advocates killing of apostates.
You cut and paste this article from the website answering-
islam. This article has been refuted ages ago and until now
the people of answering islam did not managed to come up
with a decent argument on apostacy except bullshitting -
like what you have been doing.
I expect you to do better .... , surely you can do better ...
>
> Oh I see, so the muslim countries having laws for leaving islam
> are bullshitting islam. Well of course when islam is shit, BS is
> ok.
>
See , when you cannot come up with good arguments , insults
seems to be your way out. You are pathetic. Dei thambi - if
you want to argue , do it respectfully - it reflects your upbringing.
In this case ...... very poor.
>
>
> > The burden of proof is now on you. Can you proof the constitution
> > of which Islamic country demands death for apostates? Can you
> > also show proof that the so called death penalty has been carried
> > out?
>
> Today apostasy is punishable by death in the countries of Saudi
> Arabia, Qatar, Yemen, Iran, Sudan, Afghanistan and Mauritania.
>
> Abdul Rehamn of Afghanistan . Have you forgotten the case so
> soon. because of the begging bowl aid they get, Afghanistan was
> forced to take a compromise and declare him a nut case and allowed
> him to escape from afghanistan.
>
Ho hum - hambug again. Don't just bullshit , show proof of the
constitutionalised laws that decree death for apostacy. You have
so far failed. Just empty talk from you ..... show proof
For the case of Abdul Rehman of Afghanistan :
1. Was he arrested : Yes
2. Was he put on trial : Yes
3. Was he executed : No
4. Was he released : Yes , unconditionally
5. Was he declared mentally unfit : No
So what is your argument on this one? Was the person killed
due to him being an apostate?
> Iran: They declared death penalty to Salman Rushdie even though he
> is not an iranian.
>
> http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=72&release=352
Who declared the death penalty. Imam Kohmeini. Any other clerics
from the sunah school in Al Azhar edict the same thing - none. Why
Imam Kohmeini did it , possible reasons due to the fact of erosion of
political support of him.
- Anybody carried out the killing? : No one
An Islamic overview of the Salman Rushdie's case :
ref : http://www.khalidzaheer.com/essays/kzaheer/criticism/the_salman_rushdie_case.html
excerpt :
" ....... The Muslim demand for Rushdie's head by hook or by crook
is a far cry from the approach of the prophet of peace (Islam) who
was known to have visited the home of an old lady to enquire after
her health when he didn't see her doing her daily routine of laying
thorny bushes on his way; the noble prophet got worried for her
and visited her home ...... ".
So for you have not shown any proof of apostates being killed.
All you have are examples of what did not happened.
You have not provided proof of the constitutional laws of the
countries mentioned to have apostates killed.
In other words you have shown nothing but BS. Alternatively
I can say that you are just farting from your mouth.
sam1528
sam...@hotmail.com
--snip--
>
> does it matter. Muslims are scared for life to leave islam and
> laws in many islamic countries prohibit muslims from leaving.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Rahman_(convert)
>
> The Abdul Rehman case, he was let go because of enormous pressure
> from other countries.
Like I said , you say that but no proof of it. All you have is the
testimony of an apostate of Islam saying this and that were
done to him or her. Thats it , no other independent reports on
the other side of the coin.
Then Islamophobes like you take to it like a fly circling shit.
It is only alleged that Abdul Rehman was released due to
international pressure. There is no way to prove of such. In
other news publications - the president has stated that he
will not and did not intervene in the matter.
The point still stand : any concrete evidence of people being
killed due to apostacy?
>
> here is a case in Egpyt:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1429415.stm
>
> "Other countries, like Egypt, that have no laws against apostasy, instead use
> laws against "insulting Islam" or "creating sectarian strife."
Ok , has she been sentenced to death? The case was thrown
out in 30 July 2001.
ref : http://english.aljazeera.net/English/archive/archive?ArchiveId=3701
If you read about her life and struggles , she criticised everybody
and everyone - all religions included. What got her into trouble
was not her criticism of Islam or the Egyptin culture , its more
of her criticising the people in the corridors of power.
ref : http://home.earthlink.net/~twoeyesmagazine/issue1/nes.htm
>
> Note how words are changed to stop anyone from converting. Well,
> shit in any other name would still stink.
>
> http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/012/059...
The link provided is article by Paul Marshall, a senior fellow at
Freedom House's Center for Religious Freedom. They are
notorious for inaccurate reporting.
ref : http://usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/831
excerpt :"......Many of the claims about Sudan made by
Freedom House, Nina Shea and the Center for
Religious Freedom have been shrill, contentious
and poorly sourced. These allegations have
ranged from the sensationalist to the ridiculous..."
This is the report & reporting that you hold dearly. If you cannot
be honest with others , at least be honest with yourself.
Follows is a link to a latest case in Malaysia :
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/05/08/asia/AS-GEN-Malaysia-Muslim-Convert.php
What's the big deal , she was allowed to leave Islam - no
hassles.
My point still stand , proof to me that in Islam the penalty
for apostacy is death. So fer you have failed .....
sam1528
Tambi Dude
> " ....... The Muslim demand for Rushdie's head by hook or by crook
> is a far cry from the approach of the prophet of peace (Islam) who
> was known to have visited the home of an old lady to enquire after
> her health when he didn't see her doing her daily routine of laying
> thorny bushes on his way; the noble prophet got worried for her
> and visited her home ...... ".
this is a fabricated hadees. Please quote the book, chapter number
of Shahi Bukhari where this is mentioned.
Tambi Dude
> My point still stand , proof to me that in Islam the penalty
> for apostacy is death. So fer you have failed .....
>
> sam1528
here are Dr. Zakir Naik and Dr. Israr Ahmed advocating death penalty
for apostasy.
does it matter what toilet paper quran mentions it directly. there is
a strong islamic
culture of killing apostates.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTz6EPjqgZU&eurl=http://www.real-islam.org/audio/index.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMAZR8YIhxI&eurl=http://www.real-islam.org/audio/index.html
is it any surprise that very few muslims openly leave islam in islamic
countries.
A tree is judged by its fruits. On that count how we should we judge
pisslam.
uNmaiviLambi
The point is obvious! Apostasy is punished by death! Only a minority
of islamic followers disagree.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam
See especially what constituted apostasy!! And see Pakiloand paws
regarding blasphemy. Apostasy is not just leaving islam. It is also
belief in reincarnation etc etc!!
Anyway islam is not a religion at all. It is a hoax invented by
Mohammad!! He never heard anything from God!
See:
Punishment for apostasy
In Islamic law (sharia), the consensus view is that a male apostate
must be put to death unless he suffers from a mental disorder or
converted under duress, for example, due to an imminent danger of
being killed. A female apostate must be either executed, according to
Shafi'i, Maliki, and Hanbali schools of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence
(fiqh), or imprisoned until she reverts to Islam as advocated by the
Sunni Hanafi school and by Shi'a scholars.[15]
A minority of medieval Islamic jurists, notably the Hanafi jurist
Sarakhsi (d. 1090),[4] Maliki jurist Ibn al-Walid al-Baji (d. 494 AH)
and Hanbali jurist Ibn Taymiyyah (1263-1328), held that apostasy
carries no legal punishment.[5] Some contemporary Islamic Shafi`i
jurists, such as the Grand Mufti Ali Gomaa,[6][7] some Shi'a jurists
such as Grand Ayatollah Hossein-Ali Montazeri,[8] and some jurists,
scholars and writers of other Islamic sects, have argued or issued
fatwas that either the changing of religion is not punishable or is
only punishable under restricted circumstances, but these minority
opinions have not found broad acceptance among the majority of Islamic
scholars.[16][17][18][19]
sam...@hotmail.com
Eeeer ..... do you know what is hadith - its the sayings of Prophet
Muhammad (saw). Is it a saying of his?
I will not tell you where to look. I wiant you to have the pleasure of
looking up into it (clues : Prophet Muhammad (saw) life , Martin Lings
etc).
Happy reading.
sam1528
sam...@hotmail.com
> On May 9, 1:02 pm, sam1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > My point still stand , proof to me that in Islam the penalty
> > for apostacy is death. So fer you have failed .....
>
> > sam1528
>
> here are Dr. Zakir Naik and Dr. Israr Ahmed advocating death penalty
> for apostasy.
> does it matter what toilet paper quran mentions it directly. there is
> a strong islamic
> culture of killing apostates.
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMAZR8YIhxI&eurl=http://www.real-islam...
>
> is it any surprise that very few muslims openly leave islam in islamic
> countries.
>
> A tree is judged by its fruits. On that count how we should we judge
> pisslam.
You don't seem to have a good understanding of what was
said , do you.
The good Dr. Naik , explained that apostate upon him
propogating his new religion is viewed as treason. However
the good Dr. did not explain on the basis of treason. It could
be he was explaining it was cut off and a voice asking a
question was superimposed in the ongoing interview.
The definition of treason :
ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_treason
" .. is criminal disloyalty to one's country. Participating in a
war against one's country, attempting to overthrow its
government, spying on its military, its diplomats, or its
secret services for a hostile and foreign power, or attempting
to kill its head of state are perhaps the best-known examples
of high treason .."
Tell me , what is the punishment of treason to either a community
or country?
Dr. Ahmad admitted that the Ahmadis has not been harmed
despite the admission of them being apostates.
Note :
".... they could have bee rooted out ONLY if the apostates/
renegade would have been killed ....."
".... there is a 'Capital Punishment' for apostates in in Islam"
What he said was that if apostates are to be killed , the
Ahmadis would have been wiped off. There is a capital
punishment for apostates in Islam but then the video was
cut off and my strong suspecision is that the good Dr.
Ahmad is about to inform of the conditions for apostates
to be killed but was cutoff with the truncation of the video.
You again posted information of what is bias to what you
want the non thinking viewers to watch & listen. This is
again a subscription to the principle of equivocation. This
is the second time you have attempted this. You should
learn to be a bit more honest and have integrity in your
postings.
Who was/were the apostate that had been killed in the
history of Islam? The only one I know was Musylama
Al-Kath-thab or Musylama the liar in English.
********************************
After the death of the Prophet, some of the rich hypocrites
decided to join with the Pagan Arab tribes to fight the Muslims
and end Islam. The leader of the apostates/renegades was
Musylama Al-Kath-thab , started his army of infidels in what
we call today the country of Oman, which is more than 1,000
miles away from Mecca and Medina where the Muslims
resided.
After Musylama became strong and popular and was able to
gather a big amount of pagans and hypocrites to form an
army, he led them to march to Mecca and Medina to fight
the Muslims. When his army finally reached the mountains
near Mecca, the Muslims had fought them several battles
until he ultimately was killed and his army was soundly
defeated.
**********************************
1400 years and a billion plus muslims later , how many
apostates have been killed in the name of Islam? Gasp (losing
my breadth & choking) ..... only ONE. That many huh? Even
that he was killed in battle as he instigated a war. I am
interested to know of anymore apostates that have been
killed.
During the same time period :
- If you are a christian , how many heretics have been burnt
on the cross & tortured to death?
- If you are a hindu , how many widows were forced to commit
sutee in the name of the hindu religion?
Are you in any moral or religious standing to comment on
apostacy in Islam? I don't think so , you lot are much , much
worse. The correct word to describe you is - hypocrite. I
will be polite - you are just 'ignorant'.
The truth of this matter is that you lot are afraid of Islam as
the conversion of hindus and christians into Islam individually
is a hell lot greater than the conversion of Muslims to hinduism
& christianity put together.
Lets face it , in the decades to come the religious demography
of this world will definately change. You can insult Islam calling
it pislam or whatever. However you are powerless to change the
inevitable. So buckle up boys , we are in for the long haul.
sam1528
sam...@hotmail.com
Phew , such a long article. Most of the answers I have
provided in the previous posts. Do look them up.
The question still stand : Which country have their
constitution laws that call for apostates to be killed?
If so , how many have been killed?
Else we are just talking about speculation of
something that have not happened. Empty talk isn't
it.
sam1528
uNmaiviLambi
Totally wrong and inappropriate. Islam is not a country but a cult.
Countries have treason. Islam is not even a reigion. Mohammad heard
nothing from God. He himself never said he heard anything from God
*directly*. He could never confirm it was even an angel. He assumed it
was an angel after Khadija told him it could be. But he knew it was
satan who gave some verses. Going by permission to rape and kill in
koran, it is Mohammad himself or the devil which spoke to Mohamamd.
Koran is no scripture. Mohamamd is no spiritual man or man of God.
It is a cruel cult for exploitation pure and simple. Treason?!
sam...@hotmail.com
> In article <0e3f1668-2e03-4faf-864f-d482a0cb7...@y22g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
> sam1...@hotmail.com says...
>
>
>
>
>
> >The good Dr. Naik , explained that apostate upon him
> >propogating his new religion is viewed as treason. However
> >the good Dr. did not explain on the basis of treason. It could
> >be he was explaining it was cut off and a voice asking a
> >question was superimposed in the ongoing interview.
> >The definition of treason :
> >ref :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_treason
> >" .. is criminal disloyalty to one's country. Participating in a
> > war against one's country, attempting to overthrow its
> > government, spying on its military, its diplomats, or its
> > secret services for a hostile and foreign power, or attempting
> > to kill its head of state are perhaps the best-known examples
> > of high treason .."
>
> >Tell me , what is the punishment of treason to either a community
> >or country?
>
> is leaving islam deemed as treason. First you need to prove that.
>
> Islam uses every possible coercion to keep alive its deathcult.
> Your taqauia tactics of misleading non-mulims will not work any more.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
That is the very basis of my question. How many people
in 1400 years have been killed due to apostacy in Islam?
1 million , 2 million ? So far only ONE. Even that he was
killed in battle as he led an army against the muslims
after the death of the prophet.
I ask again in the 1400 years :
- if you are hindu : how manny widows died due to the
hindu practise of sutee?
- if you are christian : how many deemed heretics that
he christian church killed?
See , you lot are very much worse off. You are in no moral
or religious standing.
You mentioned takiyya : Show me where did we practice
takiyya. Where in the Quran that explictly stated that
apostates should be killed. The nick 'thambi dude' posted
an article from answering islam that tried to proof that by
explaining verses 9:10-11 and in the meantime conveniently
leaving out verses 9:1-9 & 13. He was caught , now that is
takiyya.
Show me which Islamic country has a law that stated that
apostates must be killed?
You are hard pressed to proof such. Your argument is
circular in nature. The best you can come out is that Islam
is a death cult , takiyya (in which you are the ones guilty
of it) etc.
Try harder or at least provide something intelligent to
discuss.
sam1528
sam...@hotmail.com
--snip--
>
>
> Totally wrong and inappropriate. Islam is not a country but a cult.
> Countries have treason. Islam is not even a reigion. Mohammad heard
> nothing from God. He himself never said he heard anything from God
> *directly*. He could never confirm it was even an angel. He assumed it
> was an angel after Khadija told him it could be. But he knew it was
> satan who gave some verses. Going by permission to rape and kill in
> koran, it is Mohammad himself or the devil which spoke to Mohamamd.
> Koran is no scripture. Mohamamd is no spiritual man or man of God.
>
> - Show quoted text -
What is totally wrong and inappropirate?
Now you coming from an angle of Islam being a cult
and not a religion. Can you provide proof of what you
stated as above? Not just empty talk yeah ....
Consider this :
if you are a christian : consider the Abrahamic Faith
- Prophet Abraham (ra) preached & prayed to1 god
- Prophet Moses (ra) preached and prayed to 1 god
- Prophet Jesus (ra) preached and prayed to 1 god
- Prophet Muhammad (saw) preached and prayed to 1
god
Now can you show me where in the bible that Prophet
Jesus (ra) in his OWN WORDS
- he said : " I am god - worship me"
- he said : " The holy ghost is god : worship him"
if you are hindu
- How many gods do you want to pray to? No wonder
you get a lot of conversion from hinduism to Islam
as the people are confused in praying to so many
gods.
So now which religion(s) is(are) the cult?
My question still stand :
- which islamic country has its constitutional laws that
decree death for apostates
- how many have been killed due to apostacy in islam
just for leaving islam
So far from the rebuttals I got ....not one has managed
to answer my question. All of the arguments have veered
off course and now a new issue of islam being a cult has
been brought up.
sam1528
uNmaiviLambi
> On May 10, 6:47 pm, uNmaiviLambi <tripurant...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --snip--
>
>
>
> > Totally wrong and inappropriate. Islam is not a country but a cult.
> > Countries have treason. Islam is not even a reigion. Mohammad heard
> > nothing from God. He himself never said he heard anything from God
> > *directly*. He could never confirm it was even an angel. He assumed it
> > was an angel after Khadija told him it could be. But he knew it was
> > satan who gave some verses. Going by permission to rape and kill in
> > koran, it is Mohammad himself or the devil which spoke to Mohamamd.
> > Koran is no scripture. Mohamamd is no spiritual man or man of God.
> > It is a cruel cult for exploitation pure and simple. Treason?!- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> What is totally wrong and inappropirate?
Saying islam is a country is nonsense. UN does not mention any country
called islam
>
> Now you coming from an angle of Islam being a cult
> and not a religion. Can you provide proof of what you
> stated as above? Not just empty talk yeah ....
Mohammad never heard anything from God directly. There is no proof he
heard from an angel either.
> if you are hindu
> - How many gods do you want to pray to? No wonder
> you get a lot of conversion from hinduism to Islam
> as the people are confused in praying to so many
> gods.
I pray to many many Gods/Goddesses. See how many hate islam:
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/
> So now which religion(s) is(are) the cult?
Islam is a cult meant to benefit violent men only and to subjugate
peaceful men and all women
>
> My question still stand :
> - which islamic country has its constitutional laws that
> decree death for apostates
> - how many have been killed due to apostacy in islam
> just for leaving islam
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE23/015/2001/en/dom-MDE230152001en.pdf
uNmaiviLambi
> > >The good Dr. Naik ,
Naik is not good. He is a psychopath number one, a liar, a good muslim
> I ask again in the 1400 years :
> - if you are hindu : how manny widows died due to the
> hindu practise of sutee?
Manu Hindus died because of Sati. Many also died due to tuberculosis,
cancer etc etc etc
Tambi Dude
> The burden of proof is now on you. Can you proof the constitution
> of which Islamic country demands death for apostates? Can you
> also show proof that the so called death penalty has been carried
> out?
can you prove that quran is indeed word of GOD and Mohd indeed
his last messenger.
habshi
of apostates. If you can find one , I am interested to know -
this I challenge you.<
Quran 33/61 slander mongers of Medina to be put to death ie apostates
5/33 those that make war against God or his apostles or spread
mischief (ie apostates) shall be killed or crucified or have their
hands and feet cut off on alternate sides
- in fact Dr Zakir Naik agrees that any apostates who campaign against
Islam may be put to death according to this verse
9.5 kill the unbelievers ,and apostates by definition are unbelievers!
On Fri, 9 May 2008 01:27:50 -0700 (PDT), sam...@hotmail.com wrote:
Ref to the youtube link : Lecture by Abdal Hakim Murad (born
Timothy Winters - Prof of Islamic Studies - Cambridge
University).
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3D4TYOCR_6pFc&feature=3Drelated
There are Hadiths on the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad
(saw) about killing of apostates. However in that context , it
was a time of war , the Christian & Jews at that time converted
with an aim to desert the muslim army in the actual battlefield
thus weakning the muslim army in battle. The hadith was a
deterrance for such an act. If you need to choose , the quran
always takes predcedence over the hadith.
Are you sure you are not confused with the christian doctrine
on apostacy. Ref to the bible Deuteronomy Chapter 13 , verses
1 - 18 (ie. Deuteronomy 13 : 1 - 18 )
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=3D5&chapter=3D13&version=3D31
uNmaiviLambi
> >There has never been a a verse in the Quran about the killing
>
> of apostates. If you can find one , I am interested to know -
> this I challenge you.<
>
> Quran 33/61 slander mongers of Medina to be put to death ie apostates
> 5/33 those that make war against God or his apostles or spread
> mischief (ie apostates) shall be killed or crucified or have their
> hands and feet cut off on alternate sides
> - in fact Dr Zakir Naik agrees that any apostates who campaign against
> Islam may be put to death according to this verse
> 9.5 kill the unbelievers ,and apostates by definition are unbelievers!
Good work and brilliant
Fight for true peace
Tambi Dude
>
> of apostates. If you can find one , I am interested to know -
> this I challenge you.<
>
> Quran 33/61 slander mongers of Medina to be put to death ie apostates
> 5/33 those that make war against God or his apostles or spread
> mischief (ie apostates) shall be killed or crucified or have their
> hands and feet cut off on alternate sides
> - in fact Dr Zakir Naik agrees that any apostates who campaign against
> Islam may be put to death according to this verse
> 9.5 kill the unbelievers ,and apostates by definition are unbelievers!
great work Habshi.
sam...@hotmail.com
> On May 10, 8:20 am, sam1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
> > What is totally wrong and inappropirate?
>
> Saying islam is a country is nonsense. UN does not mention any country
> called islam
>
Hmmm , way to go guy. Nobody said Islam is a country.
The original poser claimed that the so called Islamic
countries kill apostates. My question (which still stand) -
- which Islamic country have its constitution laws to kill
apostates
- how many have been killed
In case you 'accidently' missed the point , its the so
called islamic country not Islam (as a country).
>
>
> > Now you coming from an angle of Islam being a cult
> > and not a religion. Can you provide proof of what you
> > stated as above? Not just empty talk yeah ....
>
> Mohammad never heard anything from God directly. There is no proof he
> heard from an angel either.
>
> > if you are hindu
> > - How many gods do you want to pray to? No wonder
> > you get a lot of conversion from hinduism to Islam
> > as the people are confused in praying to so many
> > gods.
>
> I pray to many many Gods/Goddesses. See how many hate islam:
>
> http://www.apostatesofislam.com/
>
> > So now which religion(s) is(are) the cult?
Thats their problem not ours. We do not need them to
survive. If you say so many hate Islam - their right , so
what? However you should bear in mind , what is the rate
of conversion of hindus to Islam versus the rate of
conversion of muslims into hinduism? You will see a big
disparity in the numbers and this a fact that you cannot
deny. So there are people who hate Islam and other who
convert to Islam. So what is your point?
On you saying that Prophet Muhammad never heard from
god directly or never talked to an angel , that is your belief
- so what? In the same line of reasoning I can also ask
what makes you think your god/goddesses are the true
god/goddesses?
- how do/did they procreate to have so many god/goddesses?
- you mould and fashion your god/goddesses from clay
or the like , then you pray to them. Should not it be the
other way around , you made them - your god/goddesses
should pray you. Logic isn't it?
>
> Islam is a cult meant to benefit violent men only and to subjugate
> peaceful men and all women
>
Its your claim that Islam is a cult , you will have to proof it
not the other way around. So far you have done a shoddy
job. So far all empty talk from you ...
>
>
> > My question still stand :
> > - which islamic country has its constitutional laws that
> > decree death for apostates
> > - how many have been killed due to apostacy in islam
> > just for leaving islam
>
> http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE23/015/2001/en/dom-MDE2301...- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I cannot open the link pasted. Else send it as an attachment
or the html version.
sam1528
sam...@hotmail.com
> On May 10, 7:41 am, sam1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > On May 10, 4:34 pm, bastard_m...@hell.com wrote:
> > > >The good Dr. Naik ,
>
> Naik is not good. He is a psychopath number one, a liar, a good muslim
>
Again just empty talk and claims from you. Proof it .... so far
you have not managed to proof anything. To me Dr. Naik is
pretty good - he has kicked the butt of you hindu debaters
and you guys have not come close to rebut any of his points.
You are sore because of it.
> > I ask again in the 1400 years :
> > - if you are hindu : how manny widows died due to the
> > hindu practise of sutee?
>
> Manu Hindus died because of Sati. Many also died due to tuberculosis,
> cancer etc etc etc
My point is simple , compare the deaths of hindu women due
to Sati and the death of apostates in Islam in the past 1400
years. The number deaths of hindu widows due to sati far
outweigh the death of that one miserable apostate. Even that
the person was killed in battle , not executed. Therefore you
are in no moral or religious high ground to even comment
on apostates being killed in Islam which in truth there is only
one in the past 1400 years.
This further strengthen my point that hinduism subjugate
women. Imagine a belief that demands the poor inoccent
widows to commmit suicide just because her husband died.
What kind of a religion is this?
Now you are throwing red herrings to your argument of
death due to tuberculosis, cancer etc etc etc.
sam1528
sam...@hotmail.com
Don't veer from the original point of argument. Answer that
first. You are having trouble aren't you. Told you so ....
sam1528
sam...@hotmail.com
> >There has never been a a verse in the Quran about the killing
>
> of apostates. If you can find one , I am interested to know -
> this I challenge you.<
>
> Quran 33/61 slander mongers of Medina to be put to death ie apostates
> 5/33 those that make war against God or his apostles or spread
> mischief (ie apostates) shall be killed or crucified or have their
> hands and feet cut off on alternate sides
This has been consistant with my points :
Quran 33:60-61 ; Yusuf Ali translation
ref : http://www.islam101.com/quran/yusufAli/QURAN/33.htm
60. Truly, if the Hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is
a disease, and those who stir up sedition in the City,
desist not, We shall certainly stir thee up against them:
Then will they not be able to stay in it as thy neighbours
for any length of time:
61. They shall have a curse on them: whenever they are
found, they shall be seized and slain (without mercy).
Quran 5:32:33 ; Yusuf Ali translation
ref : http://www.islam101.com/quran/yusufAli/QURAN/5.htm
32. On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel
that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or
for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he
slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it
would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then
although there came to them Our apostles with clear
signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to
commit excesses in the land.
33. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah
and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for
mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion,
or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides,
or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world,
and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
If you make a comparision to what you stated against the
translation of the Quran by Yusuf Ali. There is a huge
difference in what you stated against the actual translation.
You intentionally left out the other verses to try to lie of
your point.
This is what is termed as equivocation or in your favourite
term - takkiyya. This means you are lying to proof your
points. Why can't you just be honest in your argument?
Back to the verses , its consistant with my points :
Verses 33:60-61 , itstalking about apostates stirring up
sedition ;
ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedition
excerpt :
"Put simply, sedition is the stirring up of rebellion against
the government in power. Treason is the violation of
allegiance to one's sovereign or state and has to do with
giving aid to enemies or levying war. Sedition is more
about encouraging the people to rebel, when treason is
actually betraying the country".
Wikipedia draws a distinction between sedition & treason.
However in the same vein , a hypocrite is stirring up a
rebellion to the community should be punished. What
will a rebellion end up with - lost of lives. Why should't
these people be punished?
ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebellion
Refer to verses 5:32:33
Its very clear , in part context of it :
32 : ... do not kill unless the person has murdered someone
of he is instigating the community .... ; even that if you
can avoid it its better (ie. and if any one saved a life, it
would be as if he saved the life of the whole people)
33 : for a person who make war and spread mischief , the
punishment is death.
So , it has always been consistant. In my previous post ,
Musylama Al-Kath-thab , waged war , he was killed as a
result.
> - in fact Dr Zakir Naik agrees that any apostates who campaign against
> Islam may be put to death according to this verse
> 9.5 kill the unbelievers ,and apostates by definition are unbelievers!
>
Quran : 9:4-6 , Yusuf Ali translation
ref : http://www.islam101.com/quran/yusufAli/QURAN/9.htm
4. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans
with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have
not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one
against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the
end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.
5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight
and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize
them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every
stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish
regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open
the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
6. If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant
it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and
then escort him to where he can be secure. That is
because they are men without knowledge.
This is again takiyya by you if you compare of what you
stated against the translation of the Quran by Yusuf Ali.
You also intentionally left out verses 4 & 6.
Its consistant with what Dr. Zakir Naik mentioned.
Be honest next time , you will be caught out if you lie.
sam1528
Notice , in the context of it all , if the alliance is not broken,
respect it. At the end of it , if the pagans want war , its war
they will get. If they repent - do not harm them. If they asked
for asylum - grant it.
sam...@hotmail.com
Ho - hum , simple answers to what you think are difficult
points to refute. This is because he lied and was caught
out. Try harder the next time .....
sam1528
sam...@hotmail.com
Ho hum again. I have provided simple answers to what
you think is a difficult point to refute. Nick 'Habsi' is like
you ..... cannot argue without lying. He was caught ....
Argue honestly the next time.
sam1528
Tambi Dude
> Don't veer from the original point of argument. Answer that
> first. You are having trouble aren't you. Told you so ....
you can drag satee but others can't drag about mohd
lying about allah. fact is there is no proof that allah exists
and there is no proof that mohd was his chosen
last prophet. stupid muslims believe that and we kaafirs
care a flying fuck for it.
coming to the topic, as mentioned by other poster, how
many cases of public apostasy has been recorded in 1400
years of pisslamic history. First take a look at that and
then we will talk about how many of them were executed.
Your bragging about no one killed for apostasy is bogus
because no one dares to leave islam in the first place,
such is the fear of being killed.
And BTW keep the discussion to only islamic countries,
not cases like Wafa Sultan, Salman Rushdie.
sam...@hotmail.com
> In article <e6ce95b5-4fbf-4082-954d-c89b1ba00...@u36g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> sam1...@hotmail.com says...
>
> >That is the very basis of my question. How many people
> >in 1400 years have been killed due to apostacy in Islam?
> >1 million , 2 million ? So far only ONE.
>
> islamic country *REPORTED* their apostasy to public.
> Only when they report first, will they be killed, right?
I think you are missing the point. The poser here is the
allegation that death penalty is automatic for apostates
in the so called Islamic countries. How hard you guys
are trying - you still cannot proof it.
Does it not occur to you , if you cannot proof it , the
likelyhood of it happenning is close to zero. However
you still choose to believe the rethorics of these
islamophobes - up to you. You should take the trouble
to find out for yourself.
This is a case of taking the rethorics and rantings of
islamophobes to be true but denying yourself and
finding out for yourself the truth of the whole situation.
Sad isn't it? Get a balanced view - is that too much
to ask?
sam1528
Tambi Dude
> > The correct question should be, how many muslims in
> > islamic country *REPORTED* their apostasy to public.
> > Only when they report first, will they be killed, right?
>
> I think you are missing the point. The poser here is the
> allegation that death penalty is automatic for apostates
> in the so called Islamic countries. How hard you guys
> are trying - you still cannot proof it.
Yes it is proved by the fact that no one dares to quit
islam publicly in muslim countries.
Your line of argument
is flawed. Somewhat similar argument is that Saudi Arabians
treat their wife better because no one is charged for domestic
violence, whereas thousands get charged every year in USA.
In order to strengthen your case show us few cases of
muslims leaving islam publicly in islamic countries
and nothing happened to them.
In Hinduism, Dilip Sekhar quit Hinduism and became A R Rahman,
the famous music director of Indian films. not only he lived, he also
had a remarkable successful career. Had it been the other way,
the guy would not have lived next day or probably would have run
away from an islamic country.
uNmaiviLambi
> On May 10, 8:51 pm, uNmaiviLambi <tripurant...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Again just empty talk and claims from you. Proof it .... so far
> you have not managed to proof anything. To me Dr. Naik is
> pretty good - he has kicked the butt of you hindu debaters
> and you guys have not come close to rebut any of his points.
> You are sore because of it.
Look, I have no time to reply to all your posts and will do this here.
Naik is a psychopath, a good muslim. His vocation is to tell lies like
a true muslim. He "quotes" numbers from vedas, Gita etc etc all false!
People may think he is knowledgeable but he is a simple liar. He does
not know a damn thing about Hinduism etc and does not want to. he
wants to fool people
> My point is simple , compare the deaths of hindu women due
> to Sati and the death of apostates in Islam in the past 1400
> years. The number deaths of hindu widows due to sati far
> outweigh the death of that one miserable apostate. Even that
> the person was killed in battle , not executed. Therefore you
> are in no moral or religious high ground to even comment
> on apostates being killed in Islam which in truth there is only
> one in the past 1400 years.
1) first you deny there is killing for apostates. Then you defend Naik
and other goondas for advocating murder for apsotasy. Saudi Arabia
regularly executed people. Now because of international protests they
give lashes! Pakis have laws for blasphemy demanding death. Hudood
laws
2) Sati has nothing to do with the religion. It was a custom and got
worse with the arrival of barbarian Muslims who used captured women as
sexual slaves which the psychopath Mohammad himself did. See Saffiya,
Rohana etc and realize what happened to them
See the unholy koran 4.3,4.24,23.6,33.50,70.30. They refer to "what
the right hand possesses" a term used for "captured women in war".
They could be used for sexual exploitation and even prostitution
according to allah who is nothing but Mohammad's alter ego. You think
God spoke to Mohammad and gave him permission to rape captured women
and abuse them? To marry 6 year old Ayesha, daughter-in-law Zainab?
That is why it became a custom to die in honor than be used as sexual
slaves. Many in arabia are descendants of Hindu women raped by arab
men, Muslim men
Now there is no proof God spoke to Mohammad directly. Did God ask him
to rape women? Did Mo at any time say he heard from God directly? Not
once. Did he verify that it was an angel. No. He assumed it was an
angel. It would be the devil or himself. See verses. Many are spoken
by Mohammad
Mohammad wants us to believe it was God. He himself said he heard the
voices from an angel and never from God. However a close scrutiny will
reveal many verses cannot be from God.
For example see:
chapter one verse 5: Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for
help.
How can this be from God? Why would God say this?
Like wise many others all over koran:
see: Chapter 6-:
104 ....... And I am not a keeper over you
Chapter 37: 164 There is not one of us but hath his known position.
Chapter 51:50 Therefor flee unto Allah; lo! I am a plain warner unto
you from him
There are verses that start with "Say". I have not included them.
But the above verses cannot be from God
"Translators" add "say" when it not there in the original. This is
misleading.Many verses do not include "say".
More verses:
042.010
YUSUFALI: Whatever it be wherein ye differ, the decision thereof is
with Allah: such is Allah my Lord: In Him I trust, and to Him I turn.
PICKTHAL: And in whatsoever ye differ, the verdict therein belongeth
to
Allah. Such is my Lord, in Whom I put my trust, and unto Whom I turn.
SHAKIR: And in whatever thing you disagree, the judgment thereof is
(in) Allah's (hand); that is Allah, my Lord, on Him do I rely and to
Him do I turn time after time.
027.091
YUSUFALI: For me, I have been commanded to serve the Lord of this
city,
Him Who has sanctified it and to Whom (belong) all things: and I am
commanded to be of those who bow in Islam to Allah's Will,-
PICKTHAL: (Say): I (Muhammad) am commanded only to serve the Lord of
this land which He hath hallowed, and unto Whom all things belong. And
I am commanded to be of those who surrender (unto Him),
SHAKIR: I am commanded only that I should serve the Lord of this city,
Who has made it sacred, and His are all things; and I am commanded
that
I should be of these who submit
006.114
YUSUFALI: Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it
is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know
full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down
from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.
PICKTHAL: Shall I seek other than Allah for judge, when He it is Who
hath revealed unto you (this) Scripture, fully explained? Those unto
whom We gave the Scripture (aforetime) know that it is revealed from
thy Lord in truth. So be not thou (O Muhammad) of the waverers.
SHAKIR: Shall I then seek a judge other than Allah? And He it is Who
has revealed to you the Book (which is) made plain; and those whom We
have given the Book know that it is revealed by your Lord with truth,
therefore you should not be of the disputers.
See in the above Pickthall adds "say" which is not in the original,
thus misleading people.
011.002
YUSUFALI: (It teacheth) that ye should worship none but Allah. (Say):
"Verily I am (sent) unto you from Him to warn and to bring glad
tidings:
PICKTHAL: (Saying): Serve none but Allah. Lo! I am unto you from Him a
warner and a bringer of good tidings.
SHAKIR: That you shall not serve (any) but Allah; surely I am a warner
for you from Him and a giver of good news,
Same problem with some translators distorting things! Shakir is
generally honest!
I studied Koran. It is absolutely not from God. Mohammad is not a
prophet. He united Arabia using God'a name. Hitler, Stalin, Alexander,
Napoleon and others did not do this. Karl Marx, Mao tried a different
concept. Collapsed. Koran will collapse soon.
Study Koran carefully and realise it is evil, just a political
document. Not religious at all. Mohammad used sex and violence as
incentives to bring violent men as leaders to promote Arabia
uNmaiviLambi
A.R.Rahman's ( Dilip Kumar son of Somashekar) mother got converted
when he was three. She was widowed and was in grief after losing her
husband ( I believe muslims who fooled her told her that Lord Shiva
did not save her husband and allah might have!). Such people, sick,
widows, poor are vulnerable from prying eyes of muslims and christians
Islam is a one way ticket in muslim countries but outside they abandon
in thousands. recent converts to islam abandon in two years, more than
75%
Tambi Dude
> A.R.Rahman's ( Dilip Kumar son of Somashekar) mother got converted
> when he was three. She was widowed and was in grief after losing her
> husband ( I believe muslims who fooled her told her that Lord Shiva
> did not save her husband and allah might have!). Such people, sick,
> widows, poor are vulnerable from prying eyes of muslims and christians
> Islam is a one way ticket in muslim countries but outside they abandon
> in thousands. recent converts to islam abandon in two years, more than
> 75%
>
> See; http://www.apostatesofislam.com/
I think something is wrong in your info. ARR's mother was born
Kasturi.
She was widowed when ARR was nine years old (his father died in 1976).
From all accounts I read ARR and his family converted to islam only
around 1990. If you have any proof of his mother converted when ARR
was three, I would like to see to stand corrected. Isn't it surprising
that
she converted but did not convert his little son when he was just
three
years old.
I think one of ARR's sister is still hindu or may she is married to a
hindu.
Their son G V Prakash is now a Music Director. He was the one who sang
as a little kid "chikkubu chikkubu" in the movie Gentleman.
uNmaiviLambi
Thank you very much. May be I am wrong, his father died around nine, I
see. Mother converted and became Kareema Begum. Looks like kids were
exposed a pir by mother. One sister fell ill later and recovered
because of "blessing" by the pir and not by puja or christian prayers!
She was supposed to die and allah saved her! Then Dilip became Rahman!
Rahman also said he felt inferior as a Hindu and as a muslim became
proud!
Looks like the older sister remained a Hindu and did not fall for all
this
This shows some one may be a genius in some field but an idiot in
other departments
Tambi Dude
> She was supposed to die and allah saved her! Then Dilip became Rahman!
> Rahman also said he felt inferior as a Hindu and as a muslim became
> proud!
I too got this feeling when ARR said he stopped feeling inferior
after he converted to islam. But did he say "inferior as a hindu".
> This shows some one may be a genius in some field but an idiot in
> other departments
sure. Wasn't his GBShaw singing praises of Islam.
But to be fair to ARR, he believes in romanticized version of islam.
I am sure he would have never read the quran or be aware of its
ideologies.
uNmaiviLambi
May be respect for mother too
sam...@hotmail.com
> On May 10, 10:10 pm, sam1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > Don't veer from the original point of argument. Answer that
> > first. You are having trouble aren't you. Told you so ....
>
> you can drag satee but others can't drag about mohd
> lying about allah. fact is there is no proof that allah exists
> and there is no proof that mohd was his chosen
> last prophet. stupid muslims believe that and we kaafirs
> care a flying fuck for it.
If you care to look carefully , I didn't start it. Nick
'UnmaiVilambi' started it by stating Islam is this and that.
I asked him to proof it , he can't. I then followed his
line of reasoning to ask him of the questions I asked him.
You think I care if you don't believe in Islam. If you do ,
you are giving yourself more credit than you deserve (
rolling eyes).
>
> coming to the topic, as mentioned by other poster, how
> many cases of public apostasy has been recorded in 1400
> years of pisslamic history. First take a look at that and
> then we will talk about how many of them were executed.
> Your bragging about no one killed for apostasy is bogus
> because no one dares to leave islam in the first place,
> such is the fear of being killed.
>
> And BTW keep the discussion to only islamic countries,
> not cases like Wafa Sultan, Salman Rushdie.
Simple .... proof it. So far you have done a lousy job. If
you say death is automatic for apostates in Islam .... proof
it. Again all you have is empty talk ..... which really shows
who you are .... empty vessel.
Show me which so called Islamic countries have laws
that decree automatic killing of apostates. So far you
have failed .....
sam1528
sam...@hotmail.com
> On May 11, 6:25 am, sam1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
> Yes it is proved by the fact that no one dares to quit
> islam publicly in muslim countries.
A link to what you have until now have been unsuccessful
to provide as proof :
ref : http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/05/08/asia/AS-GEN-Malaysia-Muslim-Convert.php
Was she killed?
Back to your famous example : Abeul Rehman of Afghanistan
- was he killed?
You are clutching straws in trying to provide proof to
your argument. So you have not come up with a credible
argument of proof. That is why I say that you are in trouble.
>
> Your line of argument
> is flawed. Somewhat similar argument is that Saudi Arabians
> treat their wife better because no one is charged for domestic
> violence, whereas thousands get charged every year in USA.
>
> In order to strengthen your case show us few cases of
> muslims leaving islam publicly in islamic countries
> and nothing happened to them.
See the above link .....
>
> In Hinduism, Dilip Sekhar quit Hinduism and became A R Rahman,
> the famous music director of Indian films. not only he lived, he also
> had a remarkable successful career. Had it been the other way,
> the guy would not have lived next day or probably would have run
> away from an islamic country.
Again conjectures ...... you have got no poof of it. What might
have been is not the same as what had happened.
All the time you come back to get your butt kicked. I am
enjoying it ........
sam1528
sam...@hotmail.com
--snip--
> Look, I have no time to reply to all your posts and will do this here.
Respond all in a post. I prefer that way ..... see we can
agree to something ......
> Naik is a psychopath, a good muslim. His vocation is to tell lies like
> a true muslim. He "quotes" numbers from vedas, Gita etc etc all false!
> People may think he is knowledgeable but he is a simple liar. He does
> not know a damn thing about Hinduism etc and does not want to. he
> wants to fool people
Yeah-yeah. He has been kicking the butts of the hindu
debaters and until now they are having trouble trying
to refute him. You are sore because of it. If you guys
are inept in trying to refute him , your problem. Your
last line of defence is ..... he is a liar. Way to go ..
good job guys .....
--snip--
>
> 1) first you deny there is killing for apostates. Then you defend Naik
> and other goondas for advocating murder for apsotasy. Saudi Arabia
> regularly executed people. Now because of international protests they
> give lashes! Pakis have laws for blasphemy demanding death. Hudood
> laws
If you look carefully at my pevious posts , did I deny of
the apostate Musylama been killed? I posted it for your
information. However he was killed in battle due to him
waging war. 1400 years and a billion plus muslims later
, do you have proof of any apostates being automatically
being killed for conversion from Islam. So far a big NO.
My questions :
- show proof in the Quran stating death is automatic penalty
for apostates
- show proof of the so called islamic countries having their
constitution laws of automatic death penalty for apostates
You have so far failed miserably. Not only that , you lie or
support people who lie by quoting incomplete verses of the
Quran. Then you have the gall to say we muslims practice
takkiyya ...... seems to me you are the people who
subscribe dearly to takkiyya. In addition , you keep on
throwing red herrings in your argument and I am playing
catchup in entertaining you.
> 2) Sati has nothing to do with the religion. It was a custom and got
> worse with the arrival of barbarian Muslims who used captured women as
> sexual slaves which the psychopath Mohammad himself did. See Saffiya,
> Rohana etc and realize what happened to them
ref : http://www.csuchico.edu/~cheinz/syllabi/asst001/spring99/parrilla/parr1.htm
excerpt :
" .. More important, the symbolic significance of sati is
intricately intertwined in the Hindu belief system and
reveals something about the status of women..."
Sutee is your practice and now you are trying to pin it of
becoming worse with the arrival of Islam. Yeah ok , 'blame
it on the Joneses' ..... blaming others seemed to be the
frontline of your argument. You claimed of the Prophet
Muhammad (saw) being a psychopath ... proof it ....
so far you have failed.
> See the unholy koran 4.3,4.24,23.6,33.50,70.30. They refer to "what
> the right hand possesses" a term used for "captured women in war".
> They could be used for sexual exploitation and even prostitution
> according to allah who is nothing but Mohammad's alter ego. You think
> God spoke to Mohammad and gave him permission to rape captured women
> and abuse them? To marry 6 year old Ayesha, daughter-in-law Zainab?
> That is why it became a custom to die in honor than be used as sexual
> slaves. Many in arabia are descendants of Hindu women raped by arab
> men, Muslim men
Quran : Yusuf Ali translation :
4.3 : If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the
orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or
four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly
(with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right
hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you
from doing injustice.
Context in part :
If you can't afford it and can't be just marry only one. To prevent
any injustice being done to captives ... marry them.
Its clear - you are to marry only one if you cannot afford it AND
if you cannot be just to your wives. Tell me , which other
religious book that specifically state that to marry only one
if the person cannot afford it AND if he cannot be just to his
wives. To prevent abuses to captives , marry them. Rather
then you hindu army raping captives , muslims have been
ordered that to prevent rape , marry them.
4.23 : Prohibited to you (For marriage) are:- Your mothers,
daughters, sisters; father's sisters, Mother's sisters;
brother's daughters, sister's daughters; foster-mothers
(Who gave you suck), foster-sisters; your wives'
mothers; your step-daughters under your guardianship,
born of your wives to whom ye have gone in,- no
prohibition if ye have not gone in;- (Those who have been)
wives of your sons proceeding from your loins; and two
sisters in wedlock at one and the same time, except for
what is past; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful;-
4.24. Also (prohibited are) women already married, except
those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah
ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these,
all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage)
with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust,
seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their
dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is
prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame
on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
Context in part :
Verse 23 state of the conditions of relationship that is
permissible for one to marry. Whats the problem?
Verse 24 state that if a person wants to marry , the
male must provide dowry to the female from their own
property. This is the character of a true man , not like
you hindus , your infused culture of you want to marry a
girl , she provides the dowry ...... you are a man for
goodness sake .... start acting like one ....
4.19 : O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit
women against their will. Nor should ye treat
them with harshness, that ye may Take away
part of the dower ye have given them,-except
where they have been guilty of open lewdness;
on the contrary live with them on a footing of
kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them
it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings
about through it a great deal of good.
Context in part :
Do not marry a woman against her will and do not treat her
unfairly.
6.30 : If thou couldst but see when they are confronted with
their Lord! He will say: "Is not this the truth?" They will
say: "Yea, by our Lord!" He will say: "Taste ye then the
penalty, because ye rejected Faith."
6.33 : We know indeed the grief which their words do cause
thee: It is not thee they reject: it is the signs of Allah,
which the wicked contemn.
Part in context :
There will be punishment in the hereafter upon you rejecting
the commands of Allah. Since you don't believe in Islam ,
up to you , do you see us muslims judging you? I would
say no , its you who are judging us. We couldn't be
bothered with you.
6.50 : Say: "I tell you not that with me are the treasures of
Allah, nor do I know what is hidden, nor do I tell you I
am an angel. I but follow what is revealed to me." Say:
"can the blind be held equal to the seeing?" Will ye then
consider not?
Part in context :
Prophet Muhammad (saw) has been commanded to deliver
Allah's message as a prophet only , no more. He doesn't
claim to be god or an angel.
6.70: Leave alone those who take their religion to be mere
play and amusement, and are deceived by the life of this
world. But proclaim (to them) this (truth): that every soul
delivers itself to ruin by its own acts: it will find for
itself
no protector or intercessor except Allah. if it offered every
ransom, (or reparation), none will be accepted: such is
(the end of) those who deliver themselves to ruin by their
own acts: they will have for drink (only) boiling water, and
for punishment, one most grievous: for they persisted in
rejecting Allah.
Part in context :
Leave the others alone , to each theirs. You made a mistake
bringing this up. It strengthens my point , leave others alone,
therefore there is no automatic death penalty for apostates.
Everyone is responsible for themselves , no one bears the
inequity of others.
> Now there is no proof God spoke to Mohammad directly. Did God ask him
> to rape women? Did Mo at any time say he heard from God directly? Not
> once. Did he verify that it was an angel. No. He assumed it was an
> angel. It would be the devil or himself. See verses. Many are spoken
> by Mohammad
>
> Mohammad wants us to believe it was God. He himself said he heard the
> voices from an angel and never from God. However a close scrutiny will
> reveal many verses cannot be from God.
>
> For example see:
>
> chapter one verse 5: Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for
> help.
>
> How can this be from God? Why would God say this?
>
> Like wise many others all over koran:
We muslims do need to show proof to you that the words are
from god. Its our faith. I am not here to convert you. Using the
same line of your logic , I can also ask is the Vedas words
from your gods/goddesses? Can your dieties talk and say that
they are the true gods/goddesses bearing in mind the so called
dieties were fashioned & made by you? To each their own. Your
argument is becoming circular in nature.
Of course to Allah only we worship and ask for help. We believe
in only one god unlike your belief of a barrel load of god and
goddesses.
Show me proof that in the Quran , Allah ask Prophet
Muhammad (saw) to rape women .... you will be hard pressed.
Another BS from you?
Can you show me which are the verses in the Quran that is
spoken by Prophet Muhammad (saw) as a first person?
This means the prophet saying : " I say this and that ..."
Another one of your BS.
> see: Chapter 6-:
>
> 104 ....... And I am not a keeper over you
>
> Chapter 37: 164 There is not one of us but hath his known position.
>
> Chapter 51:50 Therefor flee unto Allah; lo! I am a plain warner unto
> you from him
>
> There are verses that start with "Say". I have not included them.
>
> But the above verses cannot be from God
>
> "Translators" add "say" when it not there in the original. This is
> misleading.Many verses do not include "say".
This one takes the cake showing your mentality. I nearly fall
out from my chair laughing. Now its your point of the word
(say) if inserted , means its not from god. My - my , how
low can one thinking be.
Who are the translators - they are different people of different
background trying their best to translate the Quran from
Arabic to other languages. Take for example - Pickthal :
he is english and became a muslim at the turn of the 20th
century.
ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmaduke_Pickthall
ref : http://www.al-sunnah.com/call_to_islam/quran/pickthall/
excerpt :
" ... The Qur'an cannot be translated. ...The book is here
rendered almost literally and every effort has been made
to choose befitting language. But the result is not the
Glorious Qur'an, that inimitable symphony, the very sounds
of which move men to tears and ecstasy. It is only an
attempt to present the meaning of the Qur'an-and peradventure
something of the charm in English. It can never take the
place of the Qur'an in Arabic, nor is it meant to do so..."
[Marmaduke Pickthall, 1930]
When you study the translation , you look at the consistancy
of the message in context. Not looking at (say) .... then
exclaiming that its not from god .... I am still laughing .....
Quran : Yusuf Ali translation :
6:104 : "Now have come to you, from your Lord, proofs (to open
your eyes): if any will see, it will be for (the good of)
his
own soul; if any will be blind, it will be to his own
(harm):
I am not (here) to watch over your doings."
Part in context :
If you accept the signs of Allah - good for you. Else you will
answer in the day of judgement. Allah gives you free will to
choose.
So what point are you trying to put forward?
I will not comment on the other 2 verses but it very clear you
are arguing from a very fragile position. Have it not occured to
you different translators will translate differently. However
the most important point is the consistancy of the message.
What is so misleading here? The translation of the message by
the 3 translators is consistant. Allah is commanding the prophet
to deliver his message. Allah is asking Prophet Muhammad (saw)
to say this and that ..... what is so misleading.
You know what is misleading here , you. For reasons only known
to yourself , you are word smitting. Goodness , what kind of logic
are you prescribing to , if you see the work of the translator of
(say) , you start screaming its not from god .....
Here you are attacking the translation or the translators , not
the Quran. You have not provided any proof against the Quran
but merely attacking the translation and/or translators.
This is what is called attacking strawman. You build up your
perceived model of which is the word (say) in the translation.
You then proceed to attack the strawman. Its very poor and
deceiving debate tactics.
>
> 011.002
> YUSUFALI: (It teacheth) that ye should worship none but Allah. (Say):
> "Verily I am (sent) unto you from Him to warn and to bring glad
> tidings:
> PICKTHAL: (Saying): Serve none but Allah. Lo! I am unto you from Him a
> warner and a bringer of good tidings.
> SHAKIR: That you shall not serve (any) but Allah; surely I am a warner
> for you from Him and a giver of good news,
>
> Same problem with some translators distorting things! Shakir is
> generally honest!
>
> I studied Koran. It is absolutely not from God. Mohammad is not a
> prophet. He united Arabia using God'a name. Hitler, Stalin, Alexander,
> Napoleon and others did not do this. Karl Marx, Mao tried a different
> concept. Collapsed. Koran will collapse soon.
Bzzzzt wrong! This is another lie from you (you people just
cannot stop lying can't you). You did not study the Quran ,
you merely read the translations and for your own reasons
say its wrong , just because of the word (say).
If you need to study the Quran , pick up Arabic and study it
in its original form. Your line of attack is not the Quran but
the translation and the translators. How dumb can you get?
Again conjectures by you , this line of attack has been
going on for the past 1400 years. Quran is still as it is. Islam
is still as it is and flourishing.
ref : http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article3653800.ece
excerpt :
" In an interview with the paper Monsignor Vittorio Formenti,
compilier of the Annuario Pontificio, the Vatican yearbook,
said "For the first time in history, we are no longer at the top:
Muslims have overtaken us." He said that figures for 2006
showed that Catholics accounted for 17.4 per cent of the
world population while Muslims accounted for 19.2 per cent".
Data does not support your claim. If you ask me , the
opposite is true , hinduism will collapse first ...
>
> Study Koran carefully and realise it is evil, just a political
> document. Not religious at all. Mohammad used sex and violence as
> incentives to bring violent men as leaders to promote Arabia
Again conjectures and baseless claims ( you are really good
in this aren't you). All I ask is to provide proof of you allegations.
Until now ..... nothing
sam1528
sam...@hotmail.com
" ... I believe muslims who fooled her told her that Lord Shiva
did not save her husband and allah might have..."
What we have here are 2 delusional people lying and comforting
each other just because there has been a conversion from
hinduism to Islam.
Quran : Yusuf Ali translation :
ref : http://www.islam101.com/quran/yusufAli/QURAN/29.htm
29.57 : Every soul shall have a taste of death in the end to
Us shall ye be brought back.
Islam and in the Quran is clear : you will die one day
Get a grip of yourselves and face reality. She could have converted
as she felt that Islam offer her something better than hinduism. Did
AR Rahman convert because your hinduism gods/goddesses
could not promise eternity? You guys are a laughing stock.
Refer to my pravious post on the growth of Islam. This year , Islam
has overtaken Catholicism. This is due to 2 factors
1. rate of population growth
2. conversion to Islam (small compared to 1 but significant)
sam1528
Tambi Dude
> A link to what you have until now have been unsuccessful
> to provide as proof :
> ref :http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/05/08/asia/AS-GEN-Malaysia-Muslim...
> Was she killed?
ha ha ha, 1400 years of glorious history and all you can do
is to show one example as recent as less-than-a-week to
show for.
Now you understand why muslims don't leave pisslam
and hence why no one has been killed for apostasy,
something you claim with pride.
> Back to your famous example : Abeul Rehman of Afghanistan
> - was he killed?
that was because of enormous pressure by western countries,
whose aid was keeping afghanistan from starving. President
Karzai had no option but to let him go, albeit with a warning
that even if court leaves him, public won't. Hence he was whisked
away to Italy before the public could lay their hands on him
and fulfill their obligation as mandated by quran.
> You are clutching straws in trying to provide proof to
> your argument. So you have not come up with a credible
> argument of proof. That is why I say that you are in trouble.
You are really low in intelligence. In 1400 years of glorious
pisslam, all you could do to show are two cases post 2006, in
one the person left the country for his safety and the other
which happened few days back. And you claim you are doing
well in this debate. Well then muzzies believe in triumphalism
even when defeat hits their nose like a smell of a bad fart.
Tambi Dude
>
> > Back to your famous example : Abeul Rehman of Afghanistan
> > - was he killed?
>
> that was because of enormous pressure by western countries,
> whose aid was keeping afghanistan from starving. President
> Karzai had no option but to let him go, albeit with a warning
> that even if court leaves him, public won't. Hence he was whisked
> away to Italy before the public could lay their hands on him
> and fulfill their obligation as mandated by quran.
http://www.dinocrat.com/archives/2006/10/21/why-it-makes-sense-to-kill-abdul-rahman-for-apostasy/
Why it makes sense to kill Abdul Rahman for apostasy
Abdul Rahman is an Afghani who converted from Islam to Christianity 16
years ago. In March, Rahman was released from prison after an Afghani
court, under “strong pressure from Western governments,” declined to
convict him of apostasy. Many Afghanis were outraged:
“Several Muslim clerics threatened to incite Afghans to kill
Rahman if he was freed, saying that he was clearly guilty of apostasy
and deserves to die. ‘Abdul Rahman must be killed. Islam demands it,’
said senior Cleric Faiez Mohammed.”
Rahman was granted asylum in Italy. (Rahman’s case resurfaced this
week because kidnappers siezed an Italian journalist and held him as
ransom for Rahman, whom they want returned to Afghanistan for
execution.)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6061236.stm
And you are still defending your case ????????
As I said earlier, like almost all muslims, low intelligence is your
trademark.
sam...@hotmail.com
>
> ha ha ha, 1400 years of glorious history and all you can do
> is to show one example as recent as less-than-a-week to
> show for.
>
> Now you understand why muslims don't leave pisslam
> and hence why no one has been killed for apostasy,
> something you claim with pride.
That is my point altogether. My questions still stand :
- Show where in the Quran that states automatic death
for apostates
- which so called islamic countries have their constitution
laws calling for automatic death for apostates.
Until now you are in trouble as you cannot answer. To
cover yourself you start on other issues. Shame on
you ...
>
> > Back to your famous example : Abeul Rehman of Afghanistan
> > - was he killed?
>
> that was because of enormous pressure by western countries,
> whose aid was keeping afghanistan from starving. President
> Karzai had no option but to let him go, albeit with a warning
> that even if court leaves him, public won't. Hence he was whisked
> away to Italy before the public could lay their hands on him
> and fulfill their obligation as mandated by quran.
>
--snip--
>
> You are really low in intelligence. In 1400 years of glorious
> pisslam, all you could do to show are two cases post 2006, in
> one the person left the country for his safety and the other
> which happened few days back. And you claim you are doing
> well in this debate. Well then muzzies believe in triumphalism
> even when defeat hits their nose like a smell of a bad fart.
Gee , I wonder who is losing and losing badly. You still have
not managed to answer my question and you go smoked in
all of you points. In addition , you were caught lying ....
face it guy , its not that you can't argue , you just do not
have good materials to argue.
Imagine both of you coming out with the line as follows :
" ... I believe muslims who fooled her told her that Lord Shiva
did not save her husband and allah might have..."
Isn't that 2 delusional people lying and comforting each other?
Sad isn't it ....
sam1528
Tambi Dude
> That is my point altogether. My questions still stand :
> - Show where in the Quran that states automatic death
> for apostates
> - which so called islamic countries have their constitution
> laws calling for automatic death for apostates.
is stupidity a requirement to be a muslim or the effect of being
a muslim.
If Afghanistan does not have a law against conversion, then why
was a trial against Abdur Rehman held in the first place.
Have you heard of a trial against a christian for leaving christianity
in a western country or against a Hindu for leaving Hinduism.
ini si þíLL™
1a1b81...@56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com :
> is stupidity a requirement to be a muslim or the effect of being
> a muslim.
>
obviously either way works just perfect :)
sam...@hotmail.com
> On May 12, 4:32 am, Tambi Dude <tambid...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > > Back to your famous example : Abeul Rehman of Afghanistan
> > > - was he killed?
>
> > that was because of enormous pressure by western countries,
> > whose aid was keeping afghanistan from starving. President
> > Karzai had no option but to let him go, albeit with a warning
> > that even if court leaves him, public won't. Hence he was whisked
> > away to Italy before the public could lay their hands on him
> > and fulfill their obligation as mandated by quran.
>
>
> Why it makes sense to kill Abdul Rahman for apostasy
>
> Abdul Rahman is an Afghani who converted from Islam to Christianity 16
> years ago. In March, Rahman was released from prison after an Afghani
> court, under “strong pressure from Western governments,” declined to
> convict him of apostasy. Many Afghanis were outraged:
>
> “Several Muslim clerics threatened to incite Afghans to kill
> Rahman if he was freed, saying that he was clearly guilty of apostasy
> and deserves to die. ‘Abdul Rahman must be killed. Islam demands it,’
> said senior Cleric Faiez Mohammed.”
>
> Rahman was granted asylum in Italy. (Rahman’s case resurfaced this
> week because kidnappers siezed an Italian journalist and held him as
> ransom for Rahman, whom they want returned to Afghanistan for
> execution.)
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6061236.stm
>
> And you are still defending your case ????????
>
> As I said earlier, like almost all muslims, low intelligence is your
> trademark.
Actually I am laughing as I am typing this.
Was he killed? I don't think so.
You provided the following link :
http://www.dinocrat.com/archives/2006/10/21/why-it-makes-sense-to-kil...
That is not a report of any kind. Its just a posting of one's
opinion to a newsgroup. Again you are caught distorting
what is reality.
Don't you feel embarassed with the number of times you
have been caught being deceptive?
What happened after the kidnapping? Was Abdul Rehman
part
exchanged? No
ref : http://www.nppa.org/news_and_events/news/2006/11/torsello08.html
excerpt :
"At first Torsello's abductors claimed to be Taliban when
they made their initial demands. But an official spokes
person for the Taliban denied any involvement with the
kidnapping and said the abductors were criminals who
would be hauled into Islamic court if they were caught.
Muslims in Italy and the UK rallied to call for Torsello's
release during the three weeks he was held prisoner".
Again your point have been refuted. I am kicking your butt
with every post you make. Don't you feel a any sense of
stupidity in yourself?
Never mind , try harder , I enjoy kicking your butt.
sam1528
Tambi Dude
> Actually I am laughing as I am typing this.
>
You are an idiot. nah. you are a muslim. they both mean
one and same.
AR was not killed because he was saved by western nations.
somewhat equivalent of your stupid argument would be a
killer stopped from killing a person and then he using his
argument "was he actually killed,no".
This is from CNN:-
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/03/28/christian.convert/index.html
read this dingbat:-
"KABUL, Afghanistan (CNN) -- An Afghan man threatened with the death
penalty for converting to Christianity has been released from prison,
senior Western diplomats said Tuesday. His whereabouts were not
immediately known.Abdul Rahman had been held by Afghan authorities for
his conversion from Islam to Christianity, punishable by death in
Afghanistan, which follows Islamic law."
and read the rest of the article how he was saved by western nations.
And more than laughing at you, I pity you for being born as muslim.
Life sucks to be a muslim. Your mental faculty is compromised by
that bloody religion. You start defending the undefensible.
sam...@hotmail.com
> On May 12, 6:07 am, sam1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > Actually I am laughing as I am typing this.
>
> You are an idiot. nah. you are a muslim. they both mean
> one and same.
>
> AR was not killed because he was saved by western nations.
> somewhat equivalent of your stupid argument would be a
> killer stopped from killing a person and then he using his
> argument "was he actually killed,no".
>
> This is from CNN:-
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/03/28/christian.convert/index.html
>
> read this dingbat:-
>
> "KABUL, Afghanistan (CNN) -- An Afghan man threatened with the death
> penalty for converting to Christianity has been released from prison,
> senior Western diplomats said Tuesday. His whereabouts were not
> immediately known.Abdul Rahman had been held by Afghan authorities for
> his conversion from Islam to Christianity, punishable by death in
> Afghanistan, which follows Islamic law."
>
> and read the rest of the article how he was saved by western nations.
Again my question - was he killed?
His case was thrown out. Its was contentious fact that
the so called western nations helped his cause. You
have no case to argue on this one. You argument is
based on 'what might happened'.
The point is simple : he wasn't killed and the case
thrown out.
You still have not answered my question :
- where in the Quran that states an automatic death
penalty for apostates
- which so called islamic countries have their
constitution law that calls for automatic death
for apostates.
Repeating the same argument (which have been
refuted) does not make true. In case you don't
know.
>
> And more than laughing at you, I pity you for being born as muslim.
> Life sucks to be a muslim. Your mental faculty is compromised by
> that bloody religion. You start defending the undefensible.
Same old same old , your points have been refuted a
couple of times in my previous posts.
You are posting the same stuff hoping for a different
outcome.
The analogy to describe you is as follows :
You are a person who when buying something , haggle
for the pricing to be 10 bucks whereas the listed price
is only 6 bucks.
I cannot help but to dig this in again :
" ... I believe muslims who fooled her told her that Lord
Shiva did not save her husband and allah might have..."
If you guys are not delusional , I really do not know what
you are?
By the way , you sound rattled and angry in your last
couple of posts. Just because I labelled you delusional
it doesn't mean you need to take it to heart. Man ...
I just cannot stop laughing at you.
sam1528
sam...@hotmail.com
If you read his case , he wanted custody of his kids. The
wife resisted and reported him to the authorities.
Then he was arrested.
ref : http://www.compassdirect.org/en/display.php?page=news&lang=en&length=long&idelement=5348
excerpt :
"The Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) in
Gujarat state has implemented an “anti-conversion” law
passed in 2003, increasing Christians’ fears that it will
open the door to false accusations by Hindu extremists."
ref : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5246328.stm
excerpt :
"Christian groups have reacted strongly to a new law
passed by the Indian state of Chhattisgarh which requires
official approval of any religious conversion."
Eeeer , what was it that you mentioned , trial for hindus
leaving hinduism?
You lot have done one better , you have laws preventing
such. No need to go to trial , there is already a law for
anti conversion.
So now how?
sam1528
sam...@hotmail.com
--snip--
>
> this is to prevent forcible conversion or conversion under inducement
> of money, a common practice employed by missionaries.
The original poser from nick 'thambi dude' :
" ..Have you heard of a trial against a christian for leaving
christianity in a western country or against a Hindu for
leaving Hinduism .."
Looks like you are eating your own shit now. You lot
seems to have done one 'better'. There are laws to
prevent conversion. You do not need trial as there are
already such laws.
> The law has not been made because we Hindus believe in killing anyone
> from leaving the religion. We don't even stop anyone, otherwise
> we wouldn't have to put up with fucking 170 million cockroaches
> aka muslims.
And you lot claimed to be a religion of peace? No wonder
you are labelled as hypocrites .....
> INDIA
> Anti-conversion bill in Chattisgarh
>
> If the bill is approved, Chattisgarh will be the eighth state of the Union to
> have such a law. Whoever converts without informing the authorities, or converts
> another, risks steep fines and five years in prison.
>
> Raipur (AsiaNews/CBCI) – The government of the central state of
> Chattisgarh, run by the Bharatiya Janata Party – BJP, India's largest
> political party with national-fundamentalist leanings – has declared its
> intention to approve a law "penalizing those who change their faith without
> informing the authorities".
>
> According to the bill, people wishing to change religion must inform the
> district magistrate a month in advance. The penalty for those violating the law,
> including those who convert people forcibly, could be between 50,000 and a
> 100,000 rupees and imprisonment up to five years. The bill is set to be passed
> into law during the State Assembly's monsoon session (June – July).
>
> Freedom of religion, which allows people to profess and propagate their
> religion, has been enshrined in Article 25 of the Indian Constitution. The
> Chattisgarh government said the law "is not against the provisions laid down in
> the Constitution".
>
> The introduction of this "anti-conversion law" was explicitly requested by the
> national BJP chief, Rajnath Singh, who ordered all governments where his party
> has a majority to bring in "legislation forcefully punishing conversions".
>
> During a political meeting on 11 April, Singh said: "I have asked all leaders to
> ensure anti-conversion laws are adopted in all our states, to destroy the plans
> of Christian missionaries. The government of Jharkhand is ready with such a
> resolution and I invited Raman Singh, prime minister of Chhattisgarh, to go down
> this road."
>
> Right now, seven states of the Union have anti-conversion laws: however, in the
> last two weeks, the governor of Rajasthan sent a similar bill back the State
> Assembly without signing it, and the new government of Tamil Nadu has announced
> its intention of scrapping its anti-conversion law.
>
> http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=6268
My point exactly. Thanks for bringing it up ....
sam1528
sam...@hotmail.com
> In article <5c64b1e8-992b-427a-a243-1838d2c65...@i36g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> sam1...@hotmail.com says...
>
> >Repeating the same argument (which have been
> >refuted) does not make true. In case you don't
> >know.
>
> to the contrary, does not turn any fact into unsubstantiated
> rumour, in case your pea muzzie brain does not comprehend it.
>
> Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and few more countries
> have death penalty for getting out of islam.
Wooha , I am not denying. All I want from you lot is
proof of your allegations. My questions still stand
- where in the Quran state automatic death penalty for
apostates
- show proof of the so called islamic countries have their
constitution laws that decree automatic death penalty
for apostates.
So far you guys have failed miserably to show me proof.
To top it off , all of your arguments veered off course and
you end up trying to insult Islam.
You see , if you cannot argue its ok. To insult is kinda
low - as I mentioned before it reflects your upbringing.
Does hinduism teach you such? From your rantings ,
it looks like it ....
sam1528
sam...@hotmail.com
> The Quran isn't the sole source of Islam. It is largely from the hadith where
> Muslims get minute details of rituals and oddball superstitions of Muhammad.
The Quran and hadith go hand in hand. One deals with the
principle and the other details.
ref : http://www.aaiil.org/text/books/mali/introductionstudyhadith/introductionstudyhadith.shtml
excerpt : ( just before : How far did the Muhaddathin apply
these Tests?)
"... it follows clearly that if there is anything in Hadith which
is not in consonance with the Holy Quran, it could not have
proceeded from the Prophet, and hence must be rejected."
In citing them , the Quran always takes precedence.
> As for the killing of one(!) apostate, check out this resourceful entry:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam
>
> An excerpt:
> "Most Islamic scholars agree that the appropriate punishment for apostasy is
> beheading. However, according to hadith, apostates sometimes were tortured to
> death. The caliph Umar II had apostates tied to a post and a lance thrust into
> their hearts. Mamluk Sultan Baybars II also practiced torture of apostates. A
> case is recorded when a woman who had apostatised was led through the streets of
> Cairo on an ass, then strangled in a boat in the middle of the Nile and thrown
> into the river. In modern times, followers of the Ahmadiyya sect in Afghanistan
> were stoned to death."
Whereas the wikipedia is a good source of information , not
all of its information is reliable.
ref : http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/04/weekinreview/04seelye.html
You cited the cases of apostates being killed by Umar II
& Baybars II. If you further click on footnote 15 , the
information ends there. This article has got to most anti
Islam website as a propaganda tool. Fair enough. Can
you now provide any literature that supports what has
been shown in the wikipedia article. You will be hard
pressed. I am open , if there is more , I will concede
but at least you need to provide the source of where
the info of Umar II and Baybar II torture and kill
apostates. I think its a fair request. I can assure you
you will be hard pressed to provide it.
>
> One person killed, my ass. The history of Islam is littered with tales of
> misery, mayhem and murder. It's one thing to not agree with those events, it's
> quite another to blatantly deny that they ever happened.
I never denied these things happened. All I asked is
as follows :
- show me where in the Quran that states for the automatic
killing of apostates
- which so called islamic countries have their constitution
laws that decree automatic death for apostates
You will be hard pressed to provide answers. All I have
are point that veered off course from my questions.
Sure there are apostates being killed. However was
it due to the Islamic Laws? I don't think so. It more
to do with murder or mob bashing. There is a big
difference between a law and 'mob law'.
Similarly there also exist hindu mobs killing converts
and the pastor. This is 'mob law' not the laws of the
land.
ref : http://www.atimes.com/ind-pak/AI30Df01.html
>
> Also, recently, we got this op-ed in the New York Times:http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/12/opinion/12luttwak.html?_r=1&th&emc=...
>
> An excerpt:
> "With few exceptions, the jurists of all Sunni and Shiite schools prescribe
> execution for all adults who leave the faith not under duress; the recommended
> punishment is beheading at the hands of a cleric, although in recent years there
> have been both stonings and hangings."
>
> That's it.
Citing the fatwa made by al azhar on apostacy :
ref : http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2007/857/eg9.htm
excerpt :
"The prophet's hadith, 'If somebody [a Muslim] discards
his religion, kill him,' can be considered a legal policy
determined by the time when the prophet advocated it
as head of the Muslim state in wartime. He himself did
not kill the hypocrites, who were among his companions."
"Sheikh Mohamed Sayed Tantawi, imam of Al-Azhar
since 1996, has also ruled that a Muslim who renounces
his faith or turns apostate should be left alone as long as
he does not pose a threat or belittle Islam."
"If Muslims are forced to take action against the apostate,
it should not be because he or she has given up the faith,
but rather because he or she has turned out to be an
enemy or a threat to Islam."
Next time get a balanced view , not just from the sites of
Jihad watch , answering islam etc. This really shows how
easily you lot are being manipulated.
sam1528
uNmaiviLambi
> On May 11, 9:14 pm, uNmaiviLambi <tripurant...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Yeah-yeah. He has been kicking the butts of the hindu
> debaters and until now they are having trouble trying
> to refute him.
Let me tell you for the last time. What Naik says is all lies, not one
of his so called reference is true. All play of words and false
:
> - show proof in the Quran stating death is automatic penalty
> for apostates
Habshi already did this:
Quran 33/61 slander mongers of Medina to be put to death ie apostates
5/33 those that make war against God or his apostles or spread
mischief (ie apostates) shall be killed or crucified or have their
hands and feet cut off on alternate sides
- in fact Dr Zakir Naik agrees that any apostates who campaign against
Islam may be put to death according to this verse
9.5 kill the unbelievers ,and apostates by definition are unbelievers!
> ref :http://www.csuchico.edu/~cheinz/syllabi/asst001/spring99/parrilla/par...
> excerpt :
> " .. More important, the symbolic significance of sati is
> intricately intertwined in the Hindu belief system and
> reveals something about the status of women..."
Sati is not authorised in any scripture. Does not matter what ignorant
people say. What happened to Lord Rama's mothers after His father
died? Sati was a custom
> Context in part :
> If you can't afford it and can't be just marry only one. To prevent
> any injustice being done to captives ... marry them.
> Its clear - you are to marry only one if you cannot afford it AND
> if you cannot be just to your wives.
Why do you waffle? Do you know what the term right hand possesses
means? Tell me.
> 4.24. Also (prohibited are) women already married, except
> those whom your right hands possess:
Why do you waffle? Do you know what the term right hand possesses
means? Tell me.
>
>
> We muslims do need to show proof to you that the words are
> from god. Its our faith.
So every one has faith. Why do you bother to pretend you have the
truth! There is no proof and cannot be proof. God asks a man to rape a
child and his daughterinlaw and captives? Why dont you accept
Christians faith? Why do you condemn them that Jesus did not die etc?
I am not here to convert you.
Yes you are. That is what muslims do
Using the
> same line of your logic , I can also ask is the Vedas words
> from your gods/goddesses? Can your dieties talk and say that
> they are the true gods/goddesses bearing in mind the so called
> dieties were fashioned & made by you? To each their own. Your
> argument is becoming circular in nature.
Dont worry about vedas. It is too much for you. Learn about what is
false first before what is truth
>
> Of course to Allah only we worship and ask for help. We believe
> in only one god unlike your belief of a barrel load of god and
> goddesses.
One God is nonsense. N one can stand in front of God and count! Old
filthy trick to destroy others. By the way you have many idols such as
Mo'a hairs, black stone in kaaba etc etc etc. You are the true idol
worshipper!
>
> Show me proof that in the Quran , Allah ask Prophet
> Muhammad (saw) to rape women .... you will be hard pressed.
> Another BS from you?
Why do you waffle? Do you know what the term right hand possesses
means? Tell me.
>
> Can you show me which are the verses in the Quran that is
> spoken by Prophet Muhammad (saw) as a first person?
> This means the prophet saying : " I say this and that ..."
> Another one of your BS.
Many verses!!
> Who are the translators - they are different people of different
> background trying their best to translate the Quran from
> Arabic to other languages. Take for example - Pickthal :
> he is english and became a muslim at the turn of the 20th
> century.
Si Pickthall did not know what he did?!!!
> " ... The Qur'an cannot be translated. ...
Then dont post here
>
>
> > See in the above Pickthall adds "say" which is not in the original,
> > thus misleading people.
>
> What is so misleading here? The translation of the message by
> the 3 translators is consistant. Allah is commanding the prophet
> to deliver his message. Allah is asking Prophet Muhammad (saw)
> to say this and that ..... what is so misleading.
Allah says nothing. It is some agent and Mo talking. The agent could
be Mo's alter ego or devil. Allah never says anywhere "this is God
talking"!!
> If you need to study the Quran , pick up Arabic and study it
> in its original form. Your line of attack is not the Quran but
> the translation and the translators. How dumb can you get?
I consulted many arabic people. They sat it is "belief" it is from
God. Koran has no verse indicating it is from God! Two people talk, MO
and some one else. God never talks! Not once
Just see Koran very carefully and you will see the deception
sam...@hotmail.com
> In article <d453fb62-7dac-48f3-89c0-613e54c8d...@w8g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
> sam1...@hotmail.com says...
>
--snip--
>
> who cares?
> A tree is judged by its fruits. A school is judged by its students.
> Why should there be an exception for islam?
I am not asking for exceptiom. I am asking for proof.
Go back to my original question (I have been asking
it for more than 10 times). You still have failed to
answer the question.
> This is islam, the real islam:www.thereligionofpeace.com
> Look at the stats.
>
> Movies like Fitna are nothing but backlash from the west.
> Just wait for another 9/11. Then you will be watching hiroshima
> treatment given to Mecca and Medina on your CNN channel. Boy
> what a sight would that be. I am already smacking my lips.
Thats all you can say , something that will never
happen. Go on dreaming guy. In the meantime your
hindu breathren are converting to Islam.
> >Similarly there also exist hindu mobs killing converts
> >and the pastor.
>
> If and when Hindus start emulating muslims in same numbers,
> they will be also subject to the same level of criticism
> as muzzies do. Until then Hindus will be given far more respect
> than muzzies.
Hindus have always been violent on mob law. Just look
at what is happening in India. You do not need muslims
to teach you lot. Its has already been taught and infused
in you.
By the way ,do you know that the Tamil Tigers are the
world leaders for suicide bombing.
ref : http://www.amconmag.com/2005_07_18/article.html
excerpt :
".... Islamic fundamentalism is not as closely associated
with suicide terrorism as many people think. The world
leader in suicide terrorism is a group that you may not
be familiar with: the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka ..."
source : Associate Professor Robert Pape of the University
of Chicago, whose book on suicide terrorism, Dying
to Win, is beginning to receive wide notice.
Who are the Tamil Tigers - hindus like you. You are the
world leader in suicide terrorism - others are playing
catchup. You still say others respect you?
sam1528
sam...@hotmail.com
--snip--
>
> Let me tell you for the last time. What Naik says is all lies, not one
> of his so called reference is true. All play of words and false
Telling me is not good. Show proof.
meaning of proof :
ref : http://www.thefreedictionary.com/proof
excerpt :
" ... The state of being convinced or persuaded by
consideration of evidence ....."
So far you have failed but seemed to be very good in
empty talk.
>
> > - show proof in the Quran stating death is automatic penalty
> > for apostates
>
> Habshi already did this:
>
> Quran 33/61 slander mongers of Medina to be put to death ie apostates
> 5/33 those that make war against God or his apostles or spread
> mischief (ie apostates) shall be killed or crucified or have their
> hands and feet cut off on alternate sides
> - in fact Dr Zakir Naik agrees that any apostates who campaign against
> Islam may be put to death according to this verse
> 9.5 kill the unbelievers ,and apostates by definition are unbelievers!
You do not read and understand very well do? Since you
are so enamoured by the verse from nick 'Habsi' lets use
it. The verse stated that the apostate is to be killed IF THEY
MAKE WAR OR SPREAD MISCHIEF. Similarly Dr. Naik
has stated that the apostate is to be killed if the person
CAMPAIGN AGAINST ISLAM. This clearly shows the
condition for such a penalty to be carried out. Does this
mean automatic death penalty for apostates - a big NO.
See I had to type those in capital letters in case you
still have problems understanding what you read. By the
way the verses were the same one that you glorified
nick 'Habsi' on his brilliance.
--snip--
>
> Sati is not authorised in any scripture. Does not matter what ignorant
> people say. What happened to Lord Rama's mothers after His father
> died? Sati was a custom
If you say it , ok I will take your word for it. After all I am not
a hindu and couldn't care less about hinduism anyway.
>
> > Context in part :
> > If you can't afford it and can't be just marry only one. To prevent
> > any injustice being done to captives ... marry them.
> > Its clear - you are to marry only one if you cannot afford it AND
> > if you cannot be just to your wives.
>
> Why do you waffle? Do you know what the term right hand possesses
> means? Tell me.
>
> > 4.24. Also (prohibited are) women already married, except
> > those whom your right hands possess:
>
> Why do you waffle? Do you know what the term right hand possesses
> means? Tell me.
Can mean a couple of things , captives of war , slaves. Yeah
, so what is the problem? The very crux of it means instead
of raping war captives or slaves (which you hindu lot do
with no remorse) you are required to marry them. So whats
the big deal.
Looks to be another egg on your face ......
>
>
>
> > We muslims do need to show proof to you that the words are
> > from god. Its our faith.
>
> So every one has faith. Why do you bother to pretend you have the
> truth! There is no proof and cannot be proof. God asks a man to rape a
> child and his daughterinlaw and captives? Why dont you accept
> Christians faith? Why do you condemn them that Jesus did not die etc?
>
> I am not here to convert you.
>
> Yes you are. That is what muslims do
>
Yeah everyone has their own faith , so what. That is what
we believe in. Why should I accept christian or hindu faith?
Why do we condem them? If you care to look carefully
the christian are the ones who first started to condem
Islam. Websites like your favourite - answering islam
etc came up and did the onslaught first. Muslims then
refuted the arguments.
If you look back at my posts did I ever make the claim
that my faith if the one true faith? You seem to have the
infused problem of barking at the wrong tree all the time.
All the time my questions were :
- where in the Quran that state autometic death penalty
for apostates
- which so called islamic countries have their constitution
laws that calls for automatic death penalty for apostates
Another good example : this thread started with bigoted
statements from you hindus. I am now asking questions
which until now cannot be answered by you lot.
If you think I want to convert you , you are giving yourself
more credit than you deserve. Islam do not need people
like you. Deep down , you are scared looking at the rate
of conversion from hinduism to Islam. That is the reality
of the situation.
> Using the
>
--snip--
>
> Dont worry about vedas. It is too much for you. Learn about what is
> false first before what is truth
You started a circular argument , now running away from it.
>
> One God is nonsense. N one can stand in front of God and count! Old
> filthy trick to destroy others. By the way you have many idols such as
> Mo'a hairs, black stone in kaaba etc etc etc. You are the true idol
> worshipper!
>
You believe one god is nonsense. Judaism , Islam & a
minority of christians believe in one god and to them
gods/goddesses are nonsense. Prophet Muhammad (saw)
hairs & black stone is worshipped? If this is not a trait
of a delusional man .... dunno what is. You are not on
any medication are you?
In the time of the Prophet , the muazzein (Bilal) climbed
on top of the Kaabah to call people for prayers (not done
now as we have loudspeakers in the minarets) and when
the black cloth covering of the Kaabah is being changed
people climb and walked on the Kaabah. If you say that
the Kaabah is the idol for muslims , that means we are
stepping on the head of our idol. Its like you stepping on
the head of your Shiva and the whole hosts of your gods/
goddesses.
Can you do it? Tell you what , why don't you step on the
heads of your dieties like what we muslims do when
climbing on the Kaabah. If you can do that , you can call
us idol worshippers ..... fair isn't it?
>
>
> > Show me proof that in the Quran , Allah ask Prophet
> > Muhammad (saw) to rape women .... you will be hard pressed.
> > Another BS from you?
>
> Why do you waffle? Do you know what the term right hand possesses
> means? Tell me.
refer to my point above
> > Can you show me which are the verses in the Quran that is
> > spoken by Prophet Muhammad (saw) as a first person?
> > This means the prophet saying : " I say this and that ..."
> > Another one of your BS.
>
> Many verses!!
Show them to me , you mentioned that you have studied
the Quran. This is not just another empty talk , issit?
>
>
> Si Pickthall did not know what he did?!!!
>
> > " ... The Qur'an cannot be translated. ...
>
> Then dont post here
He said that it cannot be translated to the free flowing
language that is in arabic. My original posting :
" ... The Qur'an cannot be translated. ...The book is here
rendered almost literally and every effort has been made
to choose befitting language. But the result is not the
Glorious Qur'an, that inimitable symphony, the very sounds
of which move men to tears and ecstasy. It is only an
attempt to present the meaning of the Qur'an-and peradventure
something of the charm in English. It can never take the
place of the Qur'an in Arabic, nor is it meant to do so..."
[Marmaduke Pickthall, 1930]
Doesn't mean he did not know what he did.
See you are practicing equivocation or as your favourite term
'takkiyya' again. Does hinduism teach you to lie to support
your arguments?
>
>
>
> > > See in the above Pickthall adds "say" which is not in the original,
> > > thus misleading people.
>
> > What is so misleading here? The translation of the message by
> > the 3 translators is consistant. Allah is commanding the prophet
> > to deliver his message. Allah is asking Prophet Muhammad (saw)
> > to say this and that ..... what is so misleading.
>
> Allah says nothing. It is some agent and Mo talking. The agent could
> be Mo's alter ego or devil. Allah never says anywhere "this is God
> talking"!!
You brought up the word 'say' in context meaning its not
from Allah and is misleading. I then ask you on what is
so misleading about it. So far you have not answered and
now it seems that you are running away from the point.
The same circular argument that I can ask you with your
line of reasoning. Have your dieties ever speak to you
telling you that "I am god"? I don't think so. You believe
them due to your faith.
--snip--
>
> I consulted many arabic people. They sat it is "belief" it is from
> God. Koran has no verse indicating it is from God! Two people talk, MO
> and some one else. God never talks! Not once
>
> Just see Koran very carefully and you will see the deception
What are you talking about? You consulted many arabic
people? Then you claimed that you studied the Quran.
What logic are prescribing to? The original text of the
Quran is in arabic , to study it one needs to pick up
arabic and then study it in its original form. Isn't that how
it is being done for all religious books. Can I study the
vedas in chinese?
You are just another bullshitter who just happen to go to
some anti Islam websites (that you love so much) , and
pick up a few verses here and there - gee whiz! you have
studied the Quran.
You mentioned the Quran has deception - show or proof
to me. This is the upteenth time I am asking and
challenging you ..... you fall short in all occassions.
A very good example is as follows -
your post dated may 11 10.42 pm
excerpt :
" .... She was widowed and was in grief after losing her
husband ( I believe muslims who fooled her told her
that Lord Shiva did not save her husband and allah
might have!). Such people ....."
If you have studied the Quran , it is stated that every
living being will die (whether they like it or not).
Quran : Yusuf Ali translation :
ref : http://www.islam101.com/quran/yusufAli/QURAN/29.htm
29.57 : Every soul shall have a taste of death in the end to
Us shall ye be brought back
Either you are a liar or a delusional person.
sam1528
sam...@hotmail.com
>
> and I am telling that proof is irrelevant. If all students
> passing out of a school do badly in life, parents know
> what sort of school is that, despite the principal of
> school shouting "show me a proof that we are bad
> in teaching".
>
> Is this logic too much for your quran dung filed brain.
Hmmm , talking without proof is irrelevant? This shows
the your low level mentality. So that means all the time
you are just talking for the sake of talking and have not
been thinking. No wonder you consider the rhetoric and
rantings of the right wing neocons as the truth. You
never bother to check out anything for yourself. In other
words , you are just farting from your mouth. Is this a
teaching of hinduism?
Its ok , people like you need to be around for others
to manipulate for their own ends. Thats all you are good
for.
>
>
> I am waiting for another 9/11 in US. Two US senators have already
> told that Mecca should be attacked if another 9/11 happens.
> Once another 9/11 happens all politically correct fools like
> Jimmy Carter would keep their mouth shut while US drops
> a daisy cutter on kabba. Oh la la la.
>
> As for hindu brothers converting to islam, 1000 yr rule of islam
> in india could not convince 70% of hindus to convert to pisslam,
> why would we have to be concerned now.
Like I said , keep on daydreaming. In the meantime your
fellow hindus are converting to Islam. Whatever it is , you
lose.
At first it was a nuke , now a daisy cutter , what will it be
next?
>
> LTTE does it for their political needs. Their targets are
> political assassinations. They don't target civilans
> flying in planes, or eating in restaraunts and that too
> of a third country. Did LTTE asked his suicide bombers
> to fly planes into towers, or blow the subway system
> in some 3rd country, all for 72 virgins waiting in heaven
> to give them a blow job.
> LTTE suicide bombing is no different from Japense
> kamikaze bombers of WW2.
> And in case your pea brain does not still get it, both LTTE
> and Japanese kamikaze never invoked their religion to justify
> it, something your muslim brothers do it daily.
Whatever it is these are hindus doing it. Does hinduism
condone suicide?
ref : http://www.colombopage.com/archive_08/April25170536CH.html
excerpt :
" Apr 25, Piliyandala: The Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam
(LTTE) detonated a bomb inside a public transport bus
around 7 PM this evening in Piliyandala, a suburb of
Colombo killing 24 civilians and wounding over 40 others ..."
Aha , what was it you mentioned that the LTTE does not
target civilians. See , in every post you made you have
been caught lying. Don't you feel embarassed over your
fiasco.
Yeah-yeah , now you are saying its all political for the LTTE
to be suicide bombers. Same thing I can say for the muslims
suicide bombers. So what gives ......
> Where do you live? Your IP address points to Malaysia.
> Come to West and you will know what respect muslims
> get in web sites, talk radios. The west hates muslims.
>
Same old , same old. Been there done that. So what if I am
posting from Malaysia?
> www.jihadwatch.orgwww.dhimmiwatch.orgwww.faithfreedom.orgwww.thereligionofpeace.orgwww.littlegreenfootballs.com
> plus many more dedicated to bashing islam and muslims.
>
> Plus the traffic to these sites is pretty high.
>
> Also educated muslims in west keep complaining about prejudice
> they have to face in getting employment because of their religion.
> Good. They should realize they have to give up a looser religion
> if they have to succeed in west, or take their stinking butt back
> to islamic shithole they came from.
>
> only a muzzie cut dick will compare hindus with muslims.
Whether they hate muslims or not , we don't care. You still
have not answered my questions :
- where in the Quran that state automatic death penalty
for apostates
- which so called islamic countries have their constitution
laws that calls for automatic death penalty for apostates
Even with simple questions , you are already in a knot in
trying to answer them. Maybe you should just keep to your
day dreaming of bombing Mecca and the like.
sam1528
sam...@hotmail.com
> In article <dfa81ca6-f06d-4c2c-a5a2-55c30e823...@i36g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> sam1...@hotmail.com says...
>
> >Hmmm , talking without proof is irrelevant?
>
> if all bad students of a city is from that school
> only.
> As I said earlier, the principal of the school can
> keep farting "where is the proof that my school
> is bad", but all parents already know about the school.
> Even you as a parent will not like to send your children
> to that school.
Funny person you are. Now we are talking about
school and proof of the school doing good or bad to
the kids.
You are not even focused on the topic on hand.
You are having trouble answering my questions
, you are now changing the topic to talk about
school. This is pathetic.
You cannot answer answer my questions or
refute my arguments , now we talk about school.
Good job guy .... how come you are not lying
anymore?
>
--snip--
>
> >Like I said , keep on daydreaming. In the meantime your
> >fellow hindus are converting to Islam. Whatever it is , you
> >lose.
>
> daydreaming.!!!!!!
> 25 yrs ago no one would have dared to say anything
> islam. Do you know TIME magazine voted bas**d mohd *(pig shit be
> upon him) as the greatest human being ever to live. That was
> in 1977. Today two
> senators are talking about nuking mecca. Rev. Jerry Farewell
> called Mohd a terrorist. Pope said negative about islam.
> If attitude can change so much in 25 yrs, why not nuking mecca.
> Tiny countries from Europe can make Mohd cartoons and movies
> like Fitna with your 1.4 billion useless muzzies only shouting
> "allah allah" and doing nothing. What the heck can they do if
> mecca/media is obliterated.
>
> Yes it won't happen without provocation. But if Israel is nuked
> or another large scale 9/11 happens in US, bombing mecca will
> happpen.
>
That is why I mentioned that you better stick to your
daydreaming.
ref : http://therevival.co.uk/wp-site/276
excerpt :
********************
"The Times
7 January 2002
There is compelling anecdotal evidence of a surge in
conversions to Islam since September 11, not just in
Britain, but across Europe and America. One Dutch
Islamic centre claims a tenfold increase .... "
"Californian North County Times
Islam stirs converts after September 11
Agnes Diggs, Staff Writer
According to a study conducted in 2001 under the
auspices of the Council on American-Islamic Relations
in Washington D.C. and headed by Ihsan Bagby, a
professor of International Studies at Shaw University
in North California , 20,000 Americans convert to
Islam, and about 7,000 of them are women. Some
clerics reported conversion rates quadrupled after
Sept. 11 ...."
***********************
While you are busy daydreaming that Mecca will be
bombed with nukes , daisy cutters , water bombs ...
the rug is being pulled from under you. Good job guy ,
way to go , its ok .... just keep on daydreaming to
satisfy your fantasies.
--snip--
>
--snip--
>
> besides being an idiot are you blind also. Can't you read what I
> wrote "and too of a third country". Is Lanka a 3rd country
> for LTTE. LTTE will lose support badly if they take their
> bombing to countries like USA, Canada, UK. This is what
> your muzzies are doing worldwide. As long as muzzies keep
> their political problem within their countries (like
> Palestine, Israel, Kashmir etc), do you think Americans or
> Britishers or Australians care. Once you bring your terrorism
> to their country quoting flimsy reasons, you have to face the
> backlash.
That is not the point. I am pointing out to you that the
LTTE leads the world in suicide bombing. Who are the
members of the LTTE? Tamil hindus like you lot.
The principle of it - they kill innocent people regardless
of first or third world. Why are you going off topic (again)
talking about US, UK etc. Is it to you hindus , the lives
of the buddhist of Sri Lanka is irrelevant?
What you have stated above shows that you are nothing
but a bigot. Are all hindus, bigots like you? Your fantasies
of the western nations bombing mecca betray you as a
person groveling at the feet of your western counterpart.
You are what we call - a white man with black ass.
--snip--
>
> nothing except that you have no idea about the hatred for
> islam and muslims in the WEST. Hindus are far more respected
> in the west than fucking muzzies. To use your own words, stop
> farting from your mouth.
>
> >Whether they hate muslims or not , we don't care.
>
> you don't care. ha ha. If you don't care then why do
> OIC countries call for "fight against islamaphobia".
> organizations like CAIR are created specifically to
> fight islamaphobia.
Yeah so? If you say hindus are more respected in
the west , who cares , in the end how many of them
convert to hinduism compared to Islam. You go figure.
Whatever it is , you lose.
sam1528
The Deep
>
> stuff snipped
This thread is beginning to get really tiresome.
"sam1528" wants people to "proof" a couple of things that he keeps
harping on. For starters, I think you want people to "prove" not
"proof" their claims, unless they are printers :-) Okay, so the qur'an
does not have any explicit references to death sentences for
apostates, and the "constitutions" of several "enlightened" islamic
countries (constitution and islamic seem contradictory to me) have no
laws that require apostates be put to death. So bloody what? There is
theory, and then there is practice. To me, the latter is more
important. Even if you want to get away on a technicality, lawyer
like, the fact remains that many apostates have either been killed, or
live their lives in fear of being killed by the great many "devout."
Sure, the rule might be to award the death penalty only to "mischief
or war mongering" apostates, but more often than not, reasons can be
(and have been) manufactured to carry out murders of apostates. To
deny this basic fact is a travesty. The usual cop out is that
perpetrators are "answerable to God" for their actions. For a system
that prides itself on everyone being his brother's keeper, and has
everyone praying and preying, this is particularly rich.
>
> "The Times
> 7 January 2002
> There is compelling anecdotal evidence of a surge in
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yikes, anecdotal evidence can be compelling? Along the same lines
as hadees, I guess. A lie repeated often enough will eventually become
the truth. Oh, we then have to "proof" claims of authenticity. Give me
a break!
> conversions to Islam since September 11, not just in
> Britain, but across Europe and America. One Dutch
> Islamic centre claims a tenfold increase .... "
>
> "Californian North County Times
> Islam stirs converts after September 11
> Agnes Diggs, Staff Writer
> According to a study conducted in 2001 under the
> auspices of the Council on American-Islamic Relations
> in Washington D.C. and headed by Ihsan Bagby, a
> professor of International Studies at Shaw University
> in North California , 20,000 Americans convert to
> Islam, and about 7,000 of them are women. Some
> clerics reported conversion rates quadrupled after
> Sept. 11 ...."
Much like you demand "proof" from "reliable sources," I too demand non-
CAIR based sources to back the claim. If ever there was vile, lying,
conniving, and treacherous organization in the US, it has to be the
CAIR. Funded almost exclusively by the medieval wahhabist saudis, why
would I want to buy their "wahhabist propaganda"? Besides, the CAIR
does not really have any US interests at heart, and could well have
planted stories in newspapers.
>
> That is not the point. I am pointing out to you that the
> LTTE leads the world in suicide bombing. Who are the
> members of the LTTE? Tamil hindus like you lot.
>
> The principle of it - they kill innocent people regardless
> of first or third world. Why are you going off topic (again)
> talking about US, UK etc. Is it to you hindus , the lives
> of the buddhist of Sri Lanka is irrelevant?
You might be very surprised at the composition of the LTTE. Like you
say, "proof it" that the LTTE is exclusively a hindu organization. You
might want to find out about the historical fate of Buddhists in
Afghanistan and Bangladesh, before trying to appear very concerned
about Sri Lanka's buddhists (some of whom are as chauvinistic as you
are).
>
> What you have stated above shows that you are nothing
> but a bigot. Are all hindus, bigots like you? Your fantasies
> of the western nations bombing mecca betray you as a
> person groveling at the feet of your western counterpart.
> You are what we call - a white man with black ass.
^^^
Who is "we"? Simply stick to the original poster being a bigot, if
that is what you think he/she is, and don't use a broad brush. As for
various "colors", the appropriate and less offensive phrase is
"coconut" (brown on the outside, white on the inside). It does not
have to refer to the color of anyone's posterior. In any case, how is
it any different from non-arab "believers" buying into "divinely
ordained" arab nationalism? It is particularly rich that arabs have
nothing but contempt for non-arab muslims. There is no need to "proof
it" - simply live in one of them medieval kingdoms of the gulf, and
you'll see.
Dinesh
sam...@hotmail.com
> In article <3a94af91-f689-4ca6-a690-efd1244de...@1g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
> sam1...@hotmail.com says...
>
> >That is why I mentioned that you better stick to your
> >daydreaming.
> >ref :http://therevival.co.uk/wp-site/276
>
> you are quoting a propaganda pro muzzie site.
> anything published in the net does not make it as
> fact. learn the difference between fart and fact.
>
> Company Info for therevival.co.uk:
>
> Gio-Net
> 145-145A Union St, Oldham, Greater Manchester
> Uk OL1 1TD,
> UNITED KINGDOM
>
> the_revival_myl [at] hotmail.com
>
> hotmail???? Are pro muslim site so short of money that they
> need to keep free hotmail account.
>
> BTW the traffic ranking of it is 3,282,362
>
> In comparison traffic ranking of jihadwatch is 30,018
> traffic ranking of faithfreedom.org is 25,054
>
> { for the benefit of your low IQ muslim brain, the higher the ranking
> the worse it is }
>
--snip--
>
> rug is being pulled for what?
Yeah , that is why I say you are a daydreamer. So
what if the traffic of the websites are are at that numbers.
It is because people with the likes of you keep on logging
and relogging in them. Doesn't show or proof anything.
My my , now you are resorting to personal insults. This
is what happens when you cannot refute my arguments
or answer my questions. You lose sight of objectivity
and insults fly. This shows you have lost and you have
lost big time.
By the way , they quoted the Times & Californian North
County Times.
Lets us recap :
- you have been caught out lying in most of your posts
- you cannot answer my simple 2 questions
- always changing the subject
- fantasise of someone (not you) bombing mecca
- being the spokesman for sites like jihadwatch,
faithfreedom etc.
Looks like you are pathetic. Now you are resorting to
juvenile insults and hmmm .... talking about schools.
What has schools got to do with anything we are
throwing back and forth?
>
--snip--
>
> for people living the west it is not off topic when LTTE
> brings their violence to their country. are you that stupid
> to not realize that. Prior to 9/11 how many people in west
> cared about islam. once they realize that these animals
> can bring violence to their homes, they did take note.
> note the proliferation of anti muslim sites. same with
> talk radio host like Michael Savage. Do a search on
> Mohammad in Amazon.com. Almost all books are anti mohd
> books.
You can say that , data doesn't support your claims. Radio
hosts & anti Islam books - people gotta make a living too.
That is the best way they can do it at this time by following
the wave of sentiments. No big deal.
>
> you are what?? A slant eyed malay with arabic name. Yeah
> go to Saudi Arabia and look for your muslim brotherhood.
> They will make you eat their shit as arabs consider themselves
> superior to short slant eyed ugly malays like you. No matter
> how hard you try, arabs will treat you with contempt only.
At least I do not grovel to others. Imagine you fantasising
of someone bombing mecca. The very least there is no caste
system in Islam as compared to hinduism. Like I say again
- white man with black ass .....
--snip--
>
> that's because hinduism does not believe in conversion.
> One has to be a born hindu to be a hindu, like jews. There are
> some oraganization which allow back door entry to hinduism, like
> arya samaj, but they are not take seriously by hindus back in
> india.
>
Its not that they don't believe in conversion of others.
Only insignificant few are interested in hinduism. Thats
the reality. No interest - no show .....
> Conversion to islam happens, But who converts. In USA majority of conversion
> is among blacks in jails. Also 75% of newly converted muslims quit
> within first year.
>
> You muslims worry only about quantity, not quality. Majority of
> muslims live in poverty in Europe. They are disproportionately
> represented in jails. They are disproportionately high in collecting
> unemployment benefits. This is pisslam for you. Instead of wasting
> time reading junk called quran and praying to non-existent moron
> called allah, do some googling and look for the plight of muslims,
> specially in the west. you will know what I am talking about.
>
That is what you are trying to console yourself by lying
to yourself. Keep on doing that , no problems with us
muslims. You just keep on shouting rethorics and go
about ranting on these issues. Harmless noises by a
person who is powerless to do anything to prevent
conversion of people to Islam except fantasising about
others bombing mecca. 2 or 3 decades to come ,
muslims will be a political force in the western world.
Then we will see politicians grovel for votes ....
--snip--
>
> I am not a muslim. So what do I lose except the license to kill and rape
> others.
Making me laugh again. I have had enough laughter
for the day. Lets keep some of your comics for
tomorrow. By the way , you better go and get your
homework done.
sam1528
uNmaiviLambi
> On May 14, 12:47 am, uNmaiviLambi <tripurant...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Why do you waffle? Do you know what the term right hand possesses
> > means? Tell me.
Okay. Either you tell lies or you dont know what islam is. See:
http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid...
Author: Haji Murad on Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - 01:05 AM Printable
page Printer-friendly page Email to a friend Send this story to
someone
Quran
Does Quran approve adultery?
Answer is YES.
Whoever wants to argue Quran doesn’t allow sex with captive women
(slave women) can attend this post and rebut. I am not bringing
anything on my own. All that you may read are from the most authentic
sources of Islam. Quran, Hadith, and Tafsir (Commentary of Quran)
First of all, let me bring the verses from Quran:
Quran: Chapter 4: (Surah Al-Nikah) Verses: 24:
æóÇáúãõÍúÕóäóÜÊõ ãöäó ÇáäøöÓóÂÁö ÅöáÇøó ãóÇ ãóáóßúÊó ÃóíúãóÜäõßõãú
ßöÊóÜÈó Çááøóåö Úóáóíúßõãú æóÃõÍöáøó áóßõãú ãøóÇ æóÑóÇÁó Ðóáößõãú Ãóä
ÊóÈúÊóÛõæÇú ÈöÃóãúæóáößõãú ãøõÍúÕöäöíäó ÛóíúÑó ãõÓóÜÝöÍöíäó ÝóãóÇ
ÇÓúÊóãúÊóÚúÊõãú Èöåö ãöäúåõäøó ÝóÜóÇÊõæåõäøó ÃõÌõæÑóåõäøó ÝóÑöíÖóÉð
æóáÇó ÌõäóÇÍó Úóáóíúßõãú ÝöíãóÇ ÊóÑóÇÖóíúÊõãú Èöåö ãöä ÈóÚúÏö
ÇáúÝóÑöíÖóÉö Åöäøó Çááøóåó ßóÇäó ÚóáöíãÇð ÍóßöíãÇð
Transliteration: Wal muhsanatu minal nisaai illa ma malakath aymanukum
kathaballahi alaykum wa uhilla lakum ma waraa’a dzalikum an tabthaghoo
bi amwalikum muhsineena ghyra mus’fiheena fama astamta’tum bihi
minhunna fa’aatoohunna ujoorahunna fareedhathan wala junaha alaikum
feema taradhaytum bihi min ba’di-l fareedhati innallaha kana aleeman
hakeema(n)
Translation: Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those
(slaves) whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for
you. All others are lawful, provided you seek them (with a dowry) from
your property, desiring chastity, not fornication. So with those among
them whom you have enjoyed, give them their required due, but if you
agree mutually (to give more) after the requirement (has been
determined), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allah is Ever All-
Knowing, All-Wise.[End of translation]
Did any of you get the picture from above verses? Hardly, because all
one can apprehend is it says something about marrying, but not clear.
Thence, it should be interpreted with all available means. Muslims
will not accept any interpretation that is extraneous to their
sources. Therefore we can turn into their sources.
Let’s have a look onTafsir (Commentary of Quran) made by prominent
scholar Ibn Kathir. :
æóÞóæúáå ÊóÚóÇáóì " æóÇáúãõÍúÕóäóÇÊ ãöäú ÇáäøöÓóÇÁ ÅöáøóÇ ãóÇ ãóáóßóÊú
ÃóíúãóÇäßõãú " Ãóíú æóÍõÑøöãó Úóáóíúßõãú ãöäú ÇáúÃóÌúäóÈöíøóÇÊ
ÇáúãõÍúÕóäóÇÊ æóåöíó ÇáúãõÒóæøóÌóÇÊ
Transliteration: Wa qoulahu Ta’ala, “Wal Muhsannatu min’nisaei illa ma
malakath aimanukum” ai wa hurrima alaikum minal ajnabiyyatil muhsanati
wahiyal muzawwajati.
The Ayah (verses) means Also (forbidden are) women already married,
except those whom your right hands possess.), you are prohibited from
marrying women who are already married.:
ÅöáøóÇ ãóÇ ãóáóßóÊú ÃóíúãóÇäßõãú íóÚúäöí ÅöáøóÇ ãóÇ ãóáóßúÊõãõæåõäøó
ÈöÇáÓøóÈúíö ÝóÅöäøóåõ íóÍöáø áóßõãú æóØúÄõåõäøó ÅöÐóÇ
ÇÓúÊóÈúÑóÃúÊõãõæåä ÝóÅöäøó ÇáúÂíóÉ äóÒóáóÊú Ýöí Ðóáößó . æóÞóÇáó
ÇáúÅöãóÇã ÃóÍúãóÏ : ÍóÏøóËóäóÇ ÚóÈúÏ ÇáÑøóÒøóÇÞ ÃóÎúÈóÑóäóÇ ÓõÝúíóÇä
åõæó ÇáËøóæúÑöíø Úóäú ÚõËúãóÇä ÇáúÈóÊøöíø Úóäú ÃóÈöí ÇáúÎóáöíá Úóäú
ÃóÈöí ÓóÚöíÏ ÇáúÎõÏúÑöíø ÞóÇáó : ÃóÕóÈúäóÇ ÓóÈúíðÇ ãöäú ÓóÈúí ÃóæúØóÇÓ
æóáóåõäøó ÃóÒúæóÇÌ ÝóßóÑöåúäóÇ Ãóäú äóÞóÚ Úóáóíúåöäøó æóáóåõäøó
ÃóÒúæóÇÌ ÝóÓóÃóáúäóÇ ÇáäøóÈöíø Õóáøóì Çááøóå Úóáóíúåö æóÂáå æóÓóáøóãó
ÝóäóÒóáóÊú åóÐöåö ÇáúÂíóÉ "
Transliteration: Illa ma malakat aymanukum yae’nee illa
malaktumoohunna bilsabei fa innahu yahillu lakum wathoofoona
idzastraetumoohun. Fainnal aayata nazzalath fee dzalik. Wa qala al
Imam ahmed, haddathna AbdalRazzaq akhbarna Sufyana huwa thouriee an
uthmanal batiyy an Abil Khaleela an Abee Saeedil Khudri qala asabna
sab’an min sabe’ei outas walahunna azwajan fakarihna an naqa alaihinna
walahunna azwaja fa as’alna al nabee swallallahu alaihi wa’aalihee
wasallama fanazzalat hazihil aaya”
Translation: Except those whom your right hands possess) except those
whom you acquire through war, for you are allowed such women after
making sure they are not pregnant. Imam Ahmad recorded that Abu Sa`id
Al-Khudri said, "We captured some women from the area of Awtas who
were already married, and we disliked having sexual relations with
them because they already had husbands. So, we asked the Prophet about
this matter, and this Ayah was revealed, :
æóÇáúãõÍúÕóäóÜÊõ ãöäó ÇáäøöÓóÂÁö ÅöáÇøó ãóÇ ãóáóßúÊó ÃóíúãóÜäõßõãú
" ÝóÇÓúÊóÍúáóáúäóÇ ÝóÒóæúÌåäøó æóåóßóÐóÇ ÑóæóÇåõ ÇáÊøöÑúãöÐöíø Úóäú
ÃóÍúãóÏ Èúä ãóäöíÚ Úóäú åõÔóíúã æóÑóæóÇåõ ÇáäøóÓóÇÆöíø ãöäú ÍóÏöíË
ÓõÝúíóÇä ÇáËøóæúÑöíø æóÔõÚúÈóÉ Èúä ÇáúÍóÌøóÇÌ ËóáóÇËóÊåãú Úóäú
ÚõËúãóÇä ÇáúÈóÊøöíø æóÑóæóÇåõ ÇöÈúä ãóÇÌóåú ãöäú ÍóÏöíË ÃóÔúÚóË Èúä
ÓöæóÇÑ Úóäú ÚõËúãóÇä ÇáúÈóÊøöíø æóÑóæóÇåõ ãõÓúáöã Ýöí ÕóÍöíÍå
Transliteration: Wal muhsanatu minal nisaei illa ma malakat aimanukum
“Fastahlala fa zoujahunna” wa hakaza rawahu tirmizee an Ahmed bin
manee an husham warawahul Nasaee min hadeethi Sufyanathouri wa
shuebatu banil hajjaju thatathathuhum an Uthmana wa warahu Ibn Maja
min hadeethi Ash’ath bin siwar an Uthman wa rawahu Muslim fee
saheehihi”
(Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those whom your
right hands possess). Accordingly, we had sexual relations with these
women.'' (Alternate translation can be: as a result of these verses,
their (Infidels) wives have become lawful for us) This is the wording
collected by At-Tirmidhi An-Nasa'i, Ibn Jarir and Muslim in his Sahih.
Now, let us read all together to get the picture right.
The Ayah (verses) means Also (forbidden are) women already married,
except those whom your right hands possess.), you are prohibited from
marrying women who are already married, except those whom your right
hands possess) except those whom you acquire through war, for you are
allowed such women after making sure they are not pregnant. Imam Ahmad
recorded that Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri said, "We captured some women from
the area of Awtas who were already married, and we disliked having
sexual relations with them because they already had husbands. So, we
asked the Prophet about this matter, and this Ayah (verse) was
revealed, Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those
whom your right hands possess). Accordingly, we had sexual relations
with these women.'' (Alternate translation can be: as a result of
these verses, their (Infidels) wives have become lawful for us) This
is the wording collected by At-Tirmidhi An-Nasa'i, Ibn Jarir and
Muslim in his Sahih.
Glad, through these verses there emerges out an alleged almighty Allah
sanctions raping of women who are married but unfortunately became
captives of Muslims. A divine authorization; of adultery and
fornication. And in the right context it is the divine approval of
rape.
Let me bring the hadiths concerned to endorse the above:
Sahih Muslim. Chapter 29: Title: It is permissible to have
sexual intercourse with a captive woman after she is purified of
menses or delivery. In case she has a husband, her marriage is
abrogated after she becomes captive.
Sahih Muslim.Book 008, Number 3432:
Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (Allah her pleased with him) reported that
at the Battle of Hunain Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent
an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them.
Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of
Allah's Messenger (may peace te upon him) seemed to refrain from
having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being
polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that:" And
women already married, except those whom your right hands possess
(Quran 4:. 24)" (i. e. they were lawful for them when their 'Idda
period came to an end).[End of hadith]
Sahih Muslim. Book 008, Number 3433:
Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (Allah be pleased with him) reported that
Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) sent a small army. The rest of
the hadith is the same except this that he said: Except what your
right hands possess; out of them are lawful for you; and he did not
mention" when their 'idda period comes to an end". This hadith has
been reported on the authority of AbuSa'id (al-Khudri) (Allah be
pleased with him) through another chain of transmitters and the words
are: They took captives (women) on the day of Autas who had their
husbands. They were afraid (to have sexual intercourse with them) when
this verse was revealed:" And women already married except those whom
you right hands posses" (Quran 4: 24)[End of hadith]
Sunnan Abu Dawud, Volume 2, Number 2150:
Abu Said al-Khudri said: "The apostle of Allah sent a military
expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met
their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them
captives. Some of the Companions of the apostle of Allah were
reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence
of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent
down the Quranic verse, "And all married women (are forbidden) unto
you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess". That is to
say, they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting
period." [The Quran verse is 4:24].[End of Hadith]
Three Sahih hadiths are here to identify the incident when the holy
verses of Quran chapter 4: 24 revealed. The verses are revealed in a
specific context when Muslim fighters got female captives whose
husbands are alive. And these holy warriors had been little hesitant
to have intercourse with the captive women in the presence of these
unfortunate’s husbands. (They are still alive and should have been
tied up as captives) Muslim warriors want to have sex with their wives
within their presence…! But..! Wait a minute; let’s consult with the
supreme leader Muhammad. All of a sudden Allah rushes in his holly
fighter’s favour, assuring they can do it by all means. Allah the most
merciful god says get the hell with those husbands, you my holy
warriors engage with them without any hesitation. Consequently these
holy warriors practiced Azl= coitus interruptus with these women.
They had to consult with their holy prophet again; before practicing
coitus interreptus; not for any moral reasons..! All they had to know
was they don’t want to impregnate these unfortunate victims, lest they
can not trade them for best prices.
Sahih Bukhari. Volume 3, Book 34, Number 432:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
While he was sitting with Allah's Apostle he said, "O Allah's
Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are
interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus
interruptus?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better
for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist,
but will surely come into existence. [End of hadith]
Because this withdrawal technique often doesn’t work, since the pre-
ejaculation seminal fluid also contains sperms, Islam’s holy prophet
tells them it would be better for you guys not to spoil the fun.
Conclusion: Adultery, fornication and in some specific instances rape,
all these are divinely sanctioned in Islam. Quran chapter 4 verses: 24
testify this fact.
[Note: The Arabic portion of Ibn Kathir’s translation is extracted
from this website]
Link
[It is permitted to reproduce and distribute this article- Haji
Murad.]
> > One God is nonsense. N one can stand in front of God and count! Old
> > filthy trick to destroy others. By the way you have many idols such as
> > Mo'a hairs, black stone in kaaba etc etc etc. You are the true idol
> > worshipper!
>
> You believe one god is nonsense. Judaism , Islam & a
> minority of christians believe in one god and to them
> gods/goddesses are nonsense. Prophet Muhammad (saw)
> hairs & black stone is worshipped? If this is not a trait
> of a delusional man .... dunno what is. You are not on
> any medication are you?
So you are telling me you only God and not the black stone in kaaba
and kiss it, not prophet's hair in hazrat bal shrine etc etc. You have
thousands of idols you worship. Worship is impossible without a
symbol! Moreover worship of the Infinite Formless is impossible as Gd
is omnipresent!! How do you worship the omnipresent Infinite? Joke man
fanabba
> On May 10, 8:52 pm, hab...@anony.com (habshi) wrote:
>
> > >There has never been a a verse in the Quran about the killing
>
> > of apostates. If you can find one , I am interested to know -
> > this I challenge you.<
>
> > Quran 33/61 slander mongers of Medina to be put to death ie apostates
> > 5/33 those that make war against God or his apostles or spread
> > mischief (ie apostates) shall be killed or crucified or have their
> > hands and feet cut off on alternate sides
> > - in fact Dr Zakir Naik agrees that any apostates who campaign against
> > Islam may be put to death according to this verse
> > 9.5 kill the unbelievers ,and apostates by definition are unbelievers!
>
> Fight for true peace
The Sahih Bukhari Hadith Collection has explicit examples of killing
of apostates.
The Hadith are a source of Islamic Law, along with the Koran and the
Sira, or the
life of the Prophet Muhammad.
habshi
>The verse stated that the apostate is to be killed IF THEY
MAKE WAR OR SPREAD MISCHIEF. Similarly Dr. Naik
has stated that the apostate is to be killed if the person
CAMPAIGN AGAINST ISLAM. This clearly shows the
condition for such a penalty to be carried out. Does this
mean automatic death penalty for apostates - a big NO.<
Nonsense. What does spread mischief mean? It has been used to
kill blasphemers or even those who criticise Islam - there is a law in
Pakistan about that and many have been condemned to death. The whole
country is afraid to debate about Islam and its cruelty.
If Islam is so good and Allah exists , why dont you have
the courage to call for chopping hands which is stated clearly in the
Quran ?
5.37 cut off hands of thieves man or woman
> The very crux of it means instead
of raping war captives or slaves (which you hindu lot do
with no remorse) you are required to marry them.<
Read when it happened. The Prophet engineered this revelation
when his soldiers were asking him what to do with captured women and
he said you can have sex with them ( those whom your right hand
possesses ) without marrying them.
What about the half hour marriages common in Saudi and Iran ?
Is it not just prostitution sanctioned by your non existent God?
Why do you cirlce the kaba and kiss the black stone in the one wall?
is it not the stone that represents Allah and that was inside the kaba
at one time when it was a temple, and the stone is a shivling?
muslims_deserve_kick_in_the_ass
> Nonsense. What does spread mischief mean? It has been used to
>kill blasphemers or even those who criticise Islam - there is a law in
>Pakistan about that and many have been condemned to death. The whole
>country is afraid to debate about Islam and its cruelty.
> If Islam is so good and Allah exists , why dont you have
>the courage to call for chopping hands which is stated clearly in the
absolutely. mischief can mean anything.
another verse muslim apologist quote "islam prohibits killing of innocent
people".
who is innocent? Per this British Cleric, non muslims are not innocent since
they rejected islam and mohHAMMAD.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maHSOB2RFm4
so the subtext ic clear, non muslims can be killed with impunity
without breaking islamic law of "whoever kills an innocent person,
it is same as killing entire mankind",
muslims_deserve_kick_in_the_ass
>Yeah , that is why I say you are a daydreamer. So
>what if the traffic of the websi are are at that numbers.
>It is because people with the likes of you keep on logging
>and relogging in them. Doesn't show or proof anything.
fucking idiot, it is always unique visitors who are counted
in traffic rankings. Multiple visits from the same IP address
are counted as one unique visit. it may be not as simple as
I mentioned though.
>You can say that , data doesn't support your claims. Radio
>hosts & anti Islam books - people gotta make a living too.
>That is the best way they can do it at this time by following
>the wave of sentiments. No big deal.
why the wave of sentiments is against fucking muslims only.
Why not Buddhist or Hindus or Sikhs or anyone else. Could
it be that muslims are scumbags and deserve to be kicked
out of west.
sam...@hotmail.com
--snip--
>
> Okay. Either you tell lies or you dont know what islam is. See:
>
> http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid...
>
> Author: Haji Murad on Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - 01:05 AM Printable
> page Printer-friendly page Email to a friend Send this story to
> someone
>
In that vein , to you , an unknown person from faith freedom
seems to know all about Islam because he is parroting
what you want to read & hear. You swallowed what he
wrote hook , line and sinker.
You mentioned names and people which you should provide
the sources so that it can be checked out. The verses are
the same but it is the opinion of the writer to the verses that
makes the big difference here. This is what I am saying that
you dearly subscribe to takkiyya. Notice in the translation of
the verse
excerpt : (from what you presented)
" Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those
(slaves) whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah
ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek
them (with a dowry) from your property, desiring chastity,
not fornication ....."
Its very clear , married women = no , 'right hand possess'
= yes. Fornication = No , you must marry them.
Now consider your last work of trying put together the
so called jigsaw :
excerpt :
" ... except those whom your right hands possess) except
those whom you acquire through war, for you are allowed
such women after making sure they are not pregnant.
Imam Ahmad recorded that Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri said,
"We captured some women from the area of Awtas who
were already married ....."
Why are you contradicting yourself? Now you are saying
that its ok to rape married women who are captives of war.
The justification comes from Imam Ahmad whom recorded
from Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri. Can you provide the source.
Even the author of the article did not provide the source.
This is a clear case of equivocation again. Noticed you have
conveniently and intentionally left out the next part of the
verse :
" ..... Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful,
provided you seek them (with a dowry) from your property,
desiring chastity, not fornication...."
Seek them with dowry means marry them and not fornication.
You have been really caught out equivocating again. Learn to
at least be honest the next time.
>
> Let me bring the hadiths concerned to endorse the above:
>
> Sahih Muslim. Chapter 29: Title: It is permissible to have
> sexual intercourse with a captive woman after she is purified of
> menses or delivery. In case she has a husband, her marriage is
> abrogated after she becomes captive.
The link to Sahih Muslim Chap 29 is as follows :
ref : http://www.isna.net/library/hadith/muslim/029_smt.html
What you stated above is not there. Do check. You are not
lying again are you?
>
> Sahih Muslim.Book 008, Number 3432:
> Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (Allah her pleased with him) reported that
> at the Battle of Hunain Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent
> an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them.
> Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of
> Allah's Messenger (may peace te upon him) seemed to refrain from
> having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being
> polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that:" And
> women already married, except those whom your right hands possess
> (Quran 4:. 24)" (i. e. they were lawful for them when their 'Idda
> period came to an end).[End of hadith]
Sahih Muslim , Book 008 , Number 3432
ref : http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/008.smt.html
excerpt :
"Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (Allah her pleased with him) reported
that at the Battle of Hanain Allah's Messenger (may peace
be upon him) sent an army to Autas and encountered the
enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and
taken them captives, the Companions of Allah's Messenger
(may peace te upon him) seemed to refrain from having
intercourse with captive women because of their husbands
being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding
that:" And women already married, except those whom your
right hands possess (iv. 24)" (i. e. they were lawful for them
when their 'Idda period came to an end).
This means to refer to verse 4:24. Refer to what I stated
earlier. Same conditions apply , what is the problem? Your
issue is that you have conveniently and intentionally left
out part of the verse which is the prohibition of fornication
or rape in this case.
>
> Sahih Muslim. Book 008, Number 3433:
> Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (Allah be pleased with him) reported that
> Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) sent a small army. The rest of
> the hadith is the same except this that he said: Except what your
> right hands possess; out of them are lawful for you; and he did not
> mention" when their 'idda period comes to an end". This hadith has
> been reported on the authority of AbuSa'id (al-Khudri) (Allah be
> pleased with him) through another chain of transmitters and the words
> are: They took captives (women) on the day of Autas who had their
> husbands. They were afraid (to have sexual intercourse with them) when
> this verse was revealed:" And women already married except those whom
> you right hands posses" (Quran 4: 24)[End of hadith]
>
Sahih Muslim Book 008 , number 3433
ref : http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/008.smt.html
excerpt :
" Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (Allah be pleased with him) reported
that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) sent a small
army. The rest of the hadith is the same except this that
he said: Except what your right hands possessout of them
are lawful for you; and he did not mention" when their 'idda
period comes to an end". This hadith has been reported on
the authority of AbuSa'id (al-Khudri) (Allah be pleased with
him) through another chain of transmitters and the words are:
They took captives (women) on the day of Autas who had
their husbands. They were afraid (to have sexual intercourse
with them) when this verse was revealed:" And women
already married except those whom you right hands posses"
(iv. 24)
Same as above :
This means to refer to verse 4:24. Refer to what I stated
earlier. Same conditions apply , what is the problem? Your
issue is that you have conveniently and intentionally left
out part of the verse which is the prohibition of fornication
or rape in this case.
> Sunnan Abu Dawud, Volume 2, Number 2150:
> Abu Said al-Khudri said: "The apostle of Allah sent a military
> expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met
> their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them
> captives. Some of the Companions of the apostle of Allah were
> reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence
> of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent
> down the Quranic verse, "And all married women (are forbidden) unto
> you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess". That is to
> say, they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting
> period." [The Quran verse is 4:24].[End of Hadith]
Again the reference is to verse 4:24. In verse 4:24 does it state
fornication is permissible.? The opposite of it ,
Married women = no
'right hand possess' = yes
fornication = no - you must marry them
The verse is so clear.
>
> Three Sahih hadiths are here to identify the incident when the holy
> verses of Quran chapter 4: 24 revealed. The verses are revealed in a
> specific context when Muslim fighters got female captives whose
> husbands are alive. And these holy warriors had been little hesitant
> to have intercourse with the captive women in the presence of these
> unfortunate’s husbands. (They are still alive and should have been
> tied up as captives) Muslim warriors want to have sex with their wives
> within their presence…! But..! Wait a minute; let’s consult with the
> supreme leader Muhammad. All of a sudden Allah rushes in his holly
> fighter’s favour, assuring they can do it by all means. Allah the most
> merciful god says get the hell with those husbands, you my holy
> warriors engage with them without any hesitation. Consequently these
> holy warriors practiced Azl= coitus interruptus with these women.
>
The hadith is pointing out to a situation where verse 4:24 should
be applied. I do not have to go through verse 4:24 again. I used
the verse that you stated , what does it say :
married women = no
"right hand possess" = yes
fornication = no - you must marry them
Again , what you have done is very deceptive , you are trying
to justify your belief of rape of women captives by quoting
the hadith but truncating verse 4:24 which prohibits fornication.
Once again you have been caught out. I say again , do be
a bit honest the next time.
> They had to consult with their holy prophet again; before practicing
> coitus interreptus; not for any moral reasons..! All they had to know
> was they don’t want to impregnate these unfortunate victims, lest they
> can not trade them for best prices.
>
> Sahih Bukhari. Volume 3, Book 34, Number 432:
> Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
> While he was sitting with Allah's Apostle he said, "O Allah's
> Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are
> interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus
> interruptus?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better
> for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist,
> but will surely come into existence. [End of hadith]
>
> Because this withdrawal technique often doesn’t work, since the pre-
> ejaculation seminal fluid also contains sperms, Islam’s holy prophet
> tells them it would be better for you guys not to spoil the fun.
>
Notive again your deception. You have conveniently and
intentionally twist the meaning to suit your needs. When
Prophet prohibited it. This means do not do it.
> Conclusion: Adultery, fornication and in some specific instances rape,
> all these are divinely sanctioned in Islam. Quran chapter 4 verses: 24
> testify this fact.
Wrong again. In the verse (following the one that you stated
in the beginning)
excerpt :
" ..... provided you seek them (with a dowry) from your property,
desiring chastity, not fornication ...."
You even contradict yourself. What you presented is a very
poor argument that contradicted itself. You should have been
a bit more careful in understanding what was written. In this
case you have blown yourself apart.
--snip--
>
> So you are telling me you only God and not the black stone in kaaba
> and kiss it, not prophet's hair in hazrat bal shrine etc etc. You have
> thousands of idols you worship. Worship is impossible without a
> symbol! Moreover worship of the Infinite Formless is impossible as Gd
> is omnipresent!! How do you worship the omnipresent Infinite? Joke man
My challenge to you is simple , we will take the
conformist approach :
Bilal climbed and walked on the Kaabah & when the
black cloth is being changed people climbed the
kaabah and walked on it. Even the black stone was
stepped upon during this time. Do you do that to your
dieties?
Why don't you step on the head of your Shiva or
any gods/goddesses. If you can do that (like what
we do) , then you can call us idol worshippers.
In addition , if you want to argue , be sensible. The
hair of Prophet Muhammad (saw) .... can hairs
last 1400 years? Don't you think its about time that
you start to use your brains and think critically?
On hindu gods :
Brahma, Shiva and Vishnu whose consorts are
Saraswati. Parbatti and Lakshmi. Since you are so
interested in fornication or 'coitus interruptus', how do
your gods do it since they are all dieties made from
clay or stones? Do they need you to physically move
them to a position and the act of fornication or 'coitus
interruptus'? If yes , how can they be gods? if no ,
how did they procreate?
How come Shiva is worshipped in a representation as
a male phallic symbol, called the lingam. His wife
Parbatti is likewise worshipped in the representation
of a female sexual part, called the yoni. Is it because of
a curse put on them or are you lot just sex perverts?
sam1528
sam...@hotmail.com
> In article <b4609e4a-0c1b-4768-949a-11a0fbf88...@i36g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> sam1...@hotmail.com says...
>
> >You believe one god is nonsense. Judaism , Islam & a
> >minority of christians believe in one god and to them
> >gods/goddesses are nonsense. Prophet Muhammad (saw)
>
> So smoking is good for health. I guess this is quran
> certified logic, right?
>
> >hairs & black stone is worshipped? If this is not a trait
> >of a delusional man .... dunno what is. You are not on
> >any medication are you?
>
> whether there is one god or hundreds of god, or whether he
> is a male who pisses while standing or a female who loves
> to give blow job is childish.
>
> First prove that god exists, then we will talk about 1 vs 100000.
Like I mentioned before , you don't believe in god , your
issue. Nothing to do with me. However we have been
off track :
My original poser :
- show where in the Quran that states for an automatic death
penalty for apostates
- which so called islamic countries have their constitution laws
that call for automatic death penalty for apostates.
We cannot be going round and round in a circular argument.
sam1528
sam...@hotmail.com
> On May 11, 6:08 am, uNmaiviLambi <tripurant...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On May 10, 8:52 pm, hab...@anony.com (habshi) wrote:
>
> > > >There has never been a a verse in the Quran about the killing
>
> > > of apostates. If you can find one , I am interested to know -
> > > this I challenge you.<
>
>
> The Sahih Bukhari Hadith Collection has explicit examples of killing
> of apostates.
> The Hadith are a source of Islamic Law, along with the Koran and the
> Sira, or the
> life of the Prophet Muhammad.
Ok , please cite them. I know of a hadith that mentioned
the the Prophet mentioned the killing of apostates , but
you need to understand it in context of the time. This has
been explained in the beginning of the thread.
sam1528
sam...@hotmail.com
--snip--
--snip--
>
> Nonsense. What does spread mischief mean? It has been used to
> kill blasphemers or even those who criticise Islam - there is a law in
> Pakistan about that and many have been condemned to death. The whole
> country is afraid to debate about Islam and its cruelty.
> If Islam is so good and Allah exists , why dont you have
> the courage to call for chopping hands which is stated clearly in the
> Quran ?
> 5.37 cut off hands of thieves man or woman
All talk here. Show proof. That is what I have been requesting
for the past 60 odd messages. Where is the proof? Thats all I
am asking. Until now , you have nothing.
I thought that is what upon conviction has been done
in Saudi. They behead rapist ,murderers etc.
>
>
> Read when it happened. The Prophet engineered this revelation
> when his soldiers were asking him what to do with captured women and
> he said you can have sex with them ( those whom your right hand
> possesses ) without marrying them.
> What about the half hour marriages common in Saudi and Iran ?
> Is it not just prostitution sanctioned by your non existent God?
Then show me the verse. You have pointed to 4:24 but part of it
prohibit fornication.
Now you are bring up Muta marriage. Refer to the link :
ref : http://www.islam-is-the-only-solution.com/muta.htm
>
> Why do you cirlce the kaba and kiss the black stone in the one wall?
> is it not the stone that represents Allah and that was inside the kaba
> at one time when it was a temple, and the stone is a shivling?
On the rites of circling the kaabah & the black stone :
ref : http://www.tamilislam.com/english/specialty/kaabah.htm
The answers to your questions are in there.
sam1528
sam...@hotmail.com
> In article <a02edc9d-8fd9-48c1-8812-c4441cf3a...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
> sam1...@hotmail.com says...
>
--snip--
> Great. I can also say the same. The site you mentioned,
> the only person to log is you.
>
--snip--
>
> all empty claims of victory. typical muslim trait. remember
> how Saddam claimed before the war in 1990 that this is the
> mother of all battles and victory will be theirs. This even
> before the war started.
>
--snip--
>
> Michael Savage is #3 ranked in US as a talk radio host. He
> has millions of listeners. How did he become #3 without public
> wanting him to talk what they want to hear. You seem to be piss
> poor in common sense. If publishers or media operators know
> that particular topic does not sell well, they will pull the
> plug. They are not in charity business.
>
--snip
Why are you so interested in talking about websites,
talk show presenter etc. The original thread was on
apostates. My questions are :
- show me where in the quran that states automatc death
penalty for apostates
- which so called islamic countries have their constitution
laws that call for automatic death penalty for apostates.
What you have been doing is not being able to answer
my questions but throw red herrings to your argument
and veered off course. I entertained you - my mistake. Now
lets get back to the original issue.
>
> says who? Islam has its own caste system in following order
>
> 1. Arab males
> 2. Arab females
> 3. Non arab males.
> 4. animals.
> 5. non arab women.
>
Proof it. Show me where in the Quran or hadith that
subscribe to caste system in Islam. Do answer the
questions of death for apostates first.
> forget about caste, islam is anti humanism. Do you know
> the concept of blood money in Saudi. Do you know the
> compensation rate if the victim is a muslim and if the
> victim is a jew or a hindu. That will tell you what
> is pisslam.
>
> > Like I say again white man with black ass .....
>
> slant eyed chinke arab wannabe
>
> >Its not that they don't believe in conversion of others.
> >Only insignificant few are interested in hinduism. Thats
> >the reality. No interest - no show .....
>
> any proof of this or another of your fart passed off as fact.
> anyhow hindus, like jews, don't care about others showing
> interest in their religion. the numbers pissing match is
> left to muslims and christians. note how both are at war
> in africa in conversion.
>
--snip--
>
> Now how is day dreaming.
> 2 or 3 decades to come, muslims will probably be non-existent
> in western world except the ones needed to drive taxis,
> or deliver pizzas. too poor and too uneducated to do
> anything to themselves, what to talk about others.
> We need someone to do the dirty job.
>
> Remember how a tiny nation like Denmark or Holland shat on
> you 1.4 billion muslims by making cartoons and movies.
> And you did what? Except take out
> your dick and masturbate allah allah allah.
We are going off track. Do get back to the original poser
of my questions on apostates.
sam1528
sam...@hotmail.com
--snip--
>
> This thread is beginning to get really tiresome.
>
> "sam1528" wants people to "proof" a couple of things that he keeps
> harping on. For starters, I think you want people to "prove" not
> "proof" their claims, unless they are printers :-) Okay, so the qur'an
> does not have any explicit references to death sentences for
> apostates, and the "constitutions" of several "enlightened" islamic
> countries (constitution and islamic seem contradictory to me) have no
> laws that require apostates be put to death. So bloody what? There is
> theory, and then there is practice. To me, the latter is more
> important. Even if you want to get away on a technicality, lawyer
> like, the fact remains that many apostates have either been killed, or
> live their lives in fear of being killed by the great many "devout."
> Sure, the rule might be to award the death penalty only to "mischief
> or war mongering" apostates, but more often than not, reasons can be
> (and have been) manufactured to carry out murders of apostates. To
> deny this basic fact is a travesty. The usual cop out is that
> perpetrators are "answerable to God" for their actions. For a system
> that prides itself on everyone being his brother's keeper, and has
> everyone praying and preying, this is particularly rich.
>
You think you are not tired. By now you should know of
my questions. So in that context , you in an way admitted
to the fact that there is no rule whether in the Quran or the
laws of the so called Islamic countries that calls for automatic
death penalty for apostates.
Fair , we have got that one out of the way. However if you
care to look at my previous post I admitted that there have
been killings (however not verified) by mobs. This is the
same thing as murder. A murderer should get what he
deserves whether he is a cleric or what nots. This is
another point , has there been a case that an apostate
whom have been murdered , the trail points back to the
cleric or whoever did it? Now you are pointing to the
fact that upon the murder the murderer gets away with
it. Show me the proof. Thats all I want.
If you talk about praying and preying , equally identical
to the hindu mobs hitting out on christian/islam converts
and the like. A fraction of people can always be
manipulated. This is a known fact.
However what I get as answers
are as follows :
- insistance that the apostate must be killed without
conditions whereas there are conditions attached to
it.
- off topic items such as
- bombing of mecca
- website traffic
- raping of war captives
- idol worshipping
(my mistake in that sense as I entertained the posts)
In the very least you provided a sensible answer. That
I thank you.
--snip--
>
> Much like you demand "proof" from "reliable sources," I too demand non-
> CAIR based sources to back the claim. If ever there was vile, lying,
> conniving, and treacherous organization in the US, it has to be the
> CAIR. Funded almost exclusively by the medieval wahhabist saudis, why
> would I want to buy their "wahhabist propaganda"? Besides, the CAIR
> does not really have any US interests at heart, and could well have
> planted stories in newspapers.
>
Basically it is as what it is. If you feel that way about CAIR ,
hey , thats your issue. So what? Similarly I can also say about
the propangada from sites like jihadwatch (of which you are a
contributor if I am not mistaken) etc. I can in that manner call
that a conniving and treacherous organisation. So what gives?
>
>
--snip--
>
> You might be very surprised at the composition of the LTTE. Like you
> say, "proof it" that the LTTE is exclusively a hindu organization. You
> might want to find out about the historical fate of Buddhists in
> Afghanistan and Bangladesh, before trying to appear very concerned
> about Sri Lanka's buddhists (some of whom are as chauvinistic as you
> are).
>
Similarly its the same to you about your 'joy' of the millions
of inoccent Iraqis being blown to pieces by the forces for the
sake of 'returning to democracy'.
>
>
--snip--
>
> ^^^
>
> Who is "we"? Simply stick to the original poster being a bigot, if
> that is what you think he/she is, and don't use a broad brush. As for
> various "colors", the appropriate and less offensive phrase is
> "coconut" (brown on the outside, white on the inside). It does not
> have to refer to the color of anyone's posterior. In any case, how is
> it any different from non-arab "believers" buying into "divinely
> ordained" arab nationalism? It is particularly rich that arabs have
> nothing but contempt for non-arab muslims. There is no need to "proof
> it" - simply live in one of them medieval kingdoms of the gulf, and
> you'll see.
>
> Dinesh
Fair , I think you might have been offended by that phrase.
For that I apologise. However in my defence I did say "you are
what we call .."
Been there done that. Was in Jeddah for 1.5 years and Dubai
for 1.5 years. I have not encountered the contempt like you
mentioned. They are ok folks.
sam1528
habshi
Does the Quran not say cut the hands of thieves man or woman , and
does Saudi and Taliban not carry out these punishments?
The Quran says mischief makers should be killed, this includes
apostates and in fact Dr Naik who is an Islamic scholar and broadcasts
his own Islamic channel from India , approves of apostates being
killed if they speak out against Islam - see the you tube clips.
BTW the Quran is dictated by a Prophet who could not read or write and
it says the earth is flat
From the Quran
-sun hides in a muddy spring at night
-moon hides in a house when it is not visible
- sun rises on an unprotected people in the east ( on a flat earth ,
the sun would be nearer when it rises)
-mountains stop the earth from moving - nonsense that is where
earthquakes happen!
-man is made from clot of blood- nonsense there is no dna in a blood
clot
-man is made from clay- more nonsense
-clouds say we are coming 41/11 clouds answered ' We will come
willingly'- nonsense , water vapour doesnt talk !
-9/73 be harsh to unbelievers , cause of war all over the world
And what do you understand from the verse
Married women are forbidden to you EXCEPT your slave women
-here cruel non existent Allah , really the Prophet pretending to be
Allah is encouraging slavery .
Use the brains mother nature gave you and give up belief in this
silly cruel monotheistic ideology.
habshi
Allah condemning a whole population !
9/96 desert Arabs hypocritical
More proof its the Prophet expressing his frustrations and Allah
doesnt exist
muslims_deserve_a_kick_in_the_ass
sam...@hotmail.com says...
>Like I mentioned before , you don't believe in god , your
>issue. Nothing to do with me.
Running away, eh? You can't prove god exists because he doesn't.
Isn't it amusing that grown up like you (assuming you are grown
up) are asserting that there is only one god instead of so many
gods in Hinduism.
If it is indeed proved that there is only one god, then fine.
But merely farting loudly is not a proof. what difference does
it make whether muslims/jews/christians pray to one Spiderman
and Hindus to 1000 Spidermans. At the end no god exists. The
concept of god is essentially a medieval times concept.
uNmaiviLambi
> On May 14, 11:53 pm, uNmaiviLambi <tripurant...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --snip--
> Its very clear , married women = no , 'right hand possess'
> = yes. Fornication = No , you must marry them.
> The hadith is pointing out to a situation where verse 4:24 should
> be applied. I do not have to go through verse 4:24 again. I used
> the verse that you stated , what does it say :
> married women = no
> "right hand possess" = yes
> fornication = no - you must marry them
What does the term right hand possesses mean? See:
Just in case you do not know what this idiom
means, remember it means the spoils of war and that includes women
captured. I wonder if you still think this is the word of God. See:
023.006
YUSUFALI: Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or
(the captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (in their case)
they are free from blame,
PICKTHAL: Save from their wives or the (slaves) that their right hands
possess, for then they are not blameworthy,
SHAKIR: Except before their mates or those whom their right hands
possess, for they surely are not blameable,
033.050
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom
thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses
out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and
daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy
maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and
any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the
Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the
Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to
their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess;- in order
that there should be no difficulty for thee. And Allah is Oft-
Forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto
whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand
possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war, and
the daughters of thine uncle on the father's side and the daughters of
thine aunts on the father's side, and the daughters of thine uncle on
the mother's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the mother's
side who emigrated with thee, and a believing woman if she give
herself unto the Prophet and the Prophet desire to ask her in marriage
- a privilege for thee only, not for the (rest of) believers - We are
Aware of that which We enjoined upon them concerning their wives and
those whom their right hands possess - that thou mayst be free from
blame, for Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom
you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses
out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the
daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal
aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of
your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she
gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her--
specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; We know what We
have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their
right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you; and
Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
016.071
YUSUFALI: Allah has bestowed His gifts of sustenance more freely on
some of you than on others: those more favoured are not going to throw
back their gifts to those whom their right hands possess, so as to be
equal in that respect. Will they then deny the favours of Allah?
PICKTHAL: And Allah hath favoured some of you above others in
provision. Now those who are more favoured will by no means hand over
their provision to those (slaves) whom their right hands possess, so
that they may be equal with them in respect thereof. Is it then the
grace of Allah that they deny?
SHAKIR: And Allah has made some of you excel others in the means of
subsistence, so those who are made to excel do not give away their
sustenance to those whom their right hands possess so that they should
be equal therein; is it then the favor of Allah which they deny?
Also see:
and women be compelled to be prostitutes? See:
024.033
YUSUFALI: Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep
themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And
if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to
earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye
know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the
means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to
prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a
gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after
such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),
PICKTHAL: And let those who cannot find a match keep chaste till Allah
give them independence by His grace. And such of your slaves as seek a
writing (of emancipation), write it for them if ye are aware of aught
of good in them, and bestow upon them of the wealth of Allah which He
hath bestowed upon you. Force not your slave-girls to whoredom that ye
may seek enjoyment of the life of the world, if they would preserve
their chastity. And if one force them, then (unto them), after their
compulsion, lo! Allah will be Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste
until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace. And (as for)
those who ask for a writing from among those whom your right hands
possess, give them the writing if you know any good in them, and give
them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you; and do not compel
your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in
order to seek the frail good of this world's life; and whoever compels
them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Does this allah permit raping non-muslim women?
> Bilal climbed and walked on the Kaabah & when the
> black cloth is being changed people climbed the
> kaabah and walked on it. Even the black stone was
> stepped upon during this time. Do you do that to your
> dieties?
Do you/can you step on Koran or a picture of Mohammad? All muslims as
a tradition step on things when they despise something. Like flags of
US etc. Do you despise the black stone. Why did the kibla change from
Jerusalem to Mecca!! Did God know any better? Why do you kiss the
stone and go round the stones?
> In addition , if you want to argue , be sensible. The
> hair of Prophet Muhammad (saw) .... can hairs
> last 1400 years? Don't you think its about time that
> you start to use your brains and think critically?
His hair is available and is worshiped!
>
> How come Shiva is worshipped in a representation as
> a male phallic symbol, called the lingam. His wife
> Parbatti is likewise worshipped in the representation
> of a female sexual part, called the yoni. Is it because of
> a curse put on them or are you lot just sex perverts?
You wont understand the idea behind the lingam! Forget about our
theology. This is about the cult of islam
The Infinite Formless can never be worshipped! Impossible. That is how
much of a nonsense islam is
muslims_deserve_a_kick_in_the_ass
You are a great poster. I am proud of you.
Nicolas Krebs
news:9daf7bfb-3c64-4d02...@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com
> On May 9, 4:27 am, sam1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > The punishment of apostasy in Christianity is DEATH, and not
> > only that, the one who tries to convert you is also to be put to
> > death. Note even whole cities are to be destroyed.
> >
> > There are NO verses in the Quran that prescribes death for
> > apostates however the bible prescribes death for apostates.
>
> show me a christian country where leaving christianity is punishable
> by death.
> And I am sure you must be aware of many islamic countries *today*
> where apostasy law forbids a muslim from converting out of islam,
> or face death.
Good catch. There are indeed christian people who don't kill apostate
(altought it's mandatory in some christian text), and there are muslim
people who don't kill apostate (altought it's mandatory in some muslim
text). I'm living within Muslims, and i have never heard for anybody
killed because apostating islam.
Do you understand now?
muslims_deserve_to_be_nuked
>Good catch. There are indeed christian people who don't kill apostate
>(altought it's mandatory in some christian text), and there are muslim
>people who don't kill apostate (altought it's mandatory in some muslim
>text). I'm living within Muslims, and i have never heard for anybody
>killed because apostating islam.
>
>Do you understand now?
You live in France. since when France is a fucking muzzie country.
What is to be noted is that in not a single Muslim country has any
Muslim left Islam for other religion publicly. All Muslims
who have quit Islam are living outside Islamic countries. Is that
a coincidence. There is a recent case of a Malaysian woman, but
it is still in court. Apparently they want to appeal against the
recent judgment.
Sure there are apostate Muslims living in Islamic countries. But
they keep their mouth shut.
In Christian countries people leave their religion at will and
no one gives a flying fuck. Same in India. Only fucking Muslims
bend their back when someone leaves their religion. Watch this
video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21967c24SRQ. A british
Paki muslim will tell how he was treated when he quit islam for
christianity.
uNmaiviLambi
wrote:
> uNmaiviLambi says...
>
> You are a great poster. I am proud of you.
Thanks. Apostasy verse is also koran 4-89
sam...@hotmail.com
> What proof do you keep parroting on about?
> Does the Quran not say cut the hands of thieves man or woman , and
> does Saudi and Taliban not carry out these punishments?
Cutting off the hands , yes. What is the level of the severity
of the offence? Does it mean if the person steals an egg
he/she gets their hands cut off? Did the person steal just
to feed the family as he has been denied a proper means
to make a living (ie. job) , their get their hands cut off?.
There are conditions to everything. Use your brains in
this one.
> The Quran says mischief makers should be killed, this includes
> apostates and in fact Dr Naik who is an Islamic scholar and broadcasts
> his own Islamic channel from India , approves of apostates being
> killed if they speak out against Islam - see the you tube clips.
The first condition was waging war and being mischief
makers. In context it means an apostate instigating
an overthrow the authorities. What is the common
punishment for a person who instigates against the
current authorities and citing war against the current
authorities?
> BTW the Quran is dictated by a Prophet who could not read or write and
> it says the earth is flat
http://groups.msn.com/Islam4all/islamampastronomy.msnw
“Seest thou not that Allah merges Night into Day And He
merges Day into Night?”
[Al-Qur’aan 31:29]
Merging here means that the night slowly and gradually
changes to day and vice versa. This phenomenon can
only take place if the earth is spherical. If the earth was
flat, there would have been a sudden change from night
to day and from day to night.
The following verse also alludes to the spherical shape of the
earth:
“He created the heavens And the earth In true (proportions):
He makes the Night Overlap the Day, and the Day Overlap
the Night.”
[Al-Qur’aan 39:5]
The Arabic word used here is Kawwara meaning ‘to overlap’
or ‘to coil’– the way a turban is wound around the head. The
overlapping or coiling of the day and night can only take
place if the earth is spherical.
The earth is not exactly round like a ball, but geo-spherical
i.e. it is flattened at the poles. The following verse contains
a description of the earth’s shape: The Qur’aan and Modern
Science: Compatible or Incompatible?
“And the earth, moreover, Hath He made egg shaped.”
[Al-Qur’aan 79:30]*
The Arabic word dahaha has been translated by A. Yusuf Ali
as “vast expanse”, which also is correct. The word dahaha
also means an ostrich-egg.
> From the Quran
> -sun hides in a muddy spring at night
Quran : Yusuf Ali translation
http://www.islam101.com/quran/yusufAli/QURAN/18.htm
18:86. Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he
found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he
found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast
authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them
with kindness."
The keyword here is that ‘he found it to set’. Meaning when
he arrived at the place , he experienced sunset. It’s the time
of the day.
> -moon hides in a house when it is not visible
I am not sure where you got this. Point to the specific
verse.
> - sun rises on an unprotected people in the east ( on a flat earth ,
> the sun would be nearer when it rises)
Quran : Yusuf Ali translation
http://www.islam101.com/quran/yusufAli/QURAN/18.htm
90. Until, when he came to the rising of the sun, he found it
rising on a people for whom we had provided no covering
protection against the sun.
There is no mention of east , west , north and south. The verse
simply state that he arrived at an unspecified location where
the land is barren and arid.. What has ‘flat earth’ got to do
with this verse?
> -mountains stop the earth from moving - nonsense that is where
> earthquakes happen!
Quran : Yusuf Ali Translation
http://www.islam101.com/quran/yusufAli/QURAN/21.htm
31. And We have set on the earth mountains standing firm,
lest it should shake with them, and We have made
therein broad highways (between mountains) for them
to pass through: that they may receive Guidance.
This in the geological world is called isostasy. It is to
maintain an equilibrium between the earth’s crust and
the magma which is in liquid form.
http://www.enotes.com/earth-science/isostasy
excerpt :
“For example, under mountain ranges, the crust slumps
or bows deeper into the upper mantle than where th
land mass is thinner across continental plains. Somewhat
akin to how icebergs float in seawater, with more of the
mass of larger icebergs below the water than smaller ones,
this bowing results in a balance of buoyant forces termed
isostasy.”
http://www.geology.wisc.edu/courses/g112/mtn_roots.html
excerpt :
“The most important point is that mountains have buoyant
roots that extend downward into the mantle beneath a
mountain range, and that the roots are, in general, about
5.6 times deeper than the height of the range.
http://science.jrank.org/pages/3708/Isostasy-Isostasy-description-earth-s-balance.html
excerpt :
“Deeper within the earth, balancing processes also take
place as major shifts in the upper part of the earth's crust
change the planet's gravitational balance. Under mountain
ranges, the thin crust slumps or bows deeper into the upper
mantle than where the land mass is thinner across
continental plains”
The above 3 geological literature have the same message.
Mountains have roots which extend into the earth to provide
a natural equilibrium between the crust and the magma. In
the absence of equlilibium …… you should know what to
expect.
> -man is made from clot of blood- nonsense there is no dna in a blood
> clot
Blood clot doesn’t contain dna?
http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/abstract/53/3/522
excerpt :
“The mean amount of DNA obtained from a 4-mL clotted
blood sample prepared by this method was 37.1 µg for
clots processed soon after collection ….”
> -man is made from clay- more nonsense
Quran : Yusuf Ali translation
http://www.islam101.com/quran/yusufAli/QURAN/23.htm
23:12. Man We did create from a quintessence (of clay)
It doesn’t mean that we are created from clay but
from the elements of clay (ie. From the elements
from the earth)
Does our body contain the following elements ?
Oxygen, Silicon, Aluminium, Iron, Calcium, Sodium,
Potassium, Magnesium, Hydrogen, Chlorine, Iodine,
Manganese, Phosphorous, Lead, Copper, Silver,
Carbon and Zinc.
Why don’t you find out and tell me. These are also
elements found on earth.
http://vv.arts.ucla.edu/Talks/Barcelona/Arch_Life.htm
excerpt : (towards the end)
“ Researchers now think biological evolution began
in layers of clay, rather than in the primordial sea.
Interestingly, clay is itself a porous network of atoms
arranged geodesically within octahedral and tetrahedral
forms. But because these octahedra and tetrahedra are
not closely packed, they retain the ability to move and
slide relative to one another. This flexibility apparently
allows clay to catalyze many chemical reactions,
including ones that may have produced the first molecular
building blocks of organic life. “
> -clouds say we are coming 41/11 clouds answered ' We will come
> willingly'- nonsense , water vapour doesnt talk !
http://www.islam101.com/quran/yusufAli/QURAN/41.htm
41:11. Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky,
and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to
the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or
unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together),
in willing obedience."
You are taking it literally. What it means is simply the
Earth and sky are brought together to complete the
Formation of the world.
> -9/73 be harsh to unbelievers , cause of war all over the world
Quran : Yusuf Ali translation
http://www.islam101.com/quran/yusufAli/QURAN/9.htm
9:73. O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers
and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them.
Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed
Causes of war all over the world? Are you dreaming.
Why don’t you go back in history , how many wars
Have been started by muslims compared to the total
overall wars that the world have experienced
> And what do you understand from the verse
> Married women are forbidden to you EXCEPT your slave women
> -here cruel non existent Allah , really the Prophet pretending to be
> Allah is encouraging slavery .
Firstly it’s the charge of Allah condone rape as you
conveniently and intentionally left part of the verse
that prohibited fornication (ie. rape of captives). When
that doesn’t work you decided to change to slavery.
Lets play along , make no bones about it , slavery was
already there before Islam came about. Slavery was
infused in the lives & customs of the pagan arabs. To
prohibit slavery , you cannot just go cold turkey and
hope that others will follow. It was done in a gradual
manner. The verse that you quoted (in which you
conveniently and intentionally left the prohibition of
fornication (ie. rape of captives) and to marry the
women of which the ‘right hand possess’ is a facet
to free the slaves. Once married , her status is
automatically no longer a slave as she is a wife and
the children will born free. Logic isn’t it?
>
> Use the brains mother nature gave you and give up belief in this
> silly cruel monotheistic ideology.
So far the issues you brought up have been easily refuted.
The Quran is a book of signs not science. The so called
scientific matters are just signs in the Quran for the Prophet
to inform the people at that time about the works of Allah.
Has it been refuted by scientific discovery – no.
You should try reading materials written by muslims to get
a balanced view. Don’t take this a an effort to convert you.
Islam is better off without people like you