A cowardly act by Shiv Sainiks
Balwant Dixit
recruitment office at Mumbai Central alleging that Maharashtrian job
applicants were not given their due. .....BND
strategic_guerella
this shuld be happened ages back? otherwise there is no wrong in doing
so.
Mahesh Velankar
> On Tuesday, November 18, Shiv Sainiks vandalized the railway
> recruitment office at Mumbai Central alleging that Maharashtrian job
> applicants were not given their due. .....BND
I am neither for nor against this statement.
Whether such an act is an act of 'cowardice' can be debated.
However, here is a question nobody has been able to answer me so far...
When such an act is done, generally it is stamped as an act of
cowardice ( and hence something less graceful or below standard
or bad or whatever...)
I hope I have understood the meaning of the word 'coward' as someone
who lacks courage.
Tell me, what is 'wrong' in being coward?
Do you mean if somebody is weak and coward 'and' wants to express oneself,
one is not allowed to do that ? What is it? Does it mean only 'brave'
people should express themselves?
I have heard this comment from many people.
It is a standard spontaneous expression.
I repeat, I am 'not' talking anything about this incidence in particular
Abhay Patil
1. When you say "I am neither for nor against.."- I hope you are not
reacting to the act of vandalizm. Otherwise, it is a sad statement.
2. The "cowardice" as I understand in this context is not cowardice of
someone who lacks courage. It is of the leadership that lacks will to
solve the problem- and just wants to create temporary flutter at the
expense of the gullible. Gullible as in the grass-root shivsainiks who
get in to the act and the people who think this is the right way to
teach "them" a lesson. The end result is nothing more than a few
headlines, raised tempers- and a false sense of "solving" the problem.
This is exactly what the "coward" (if one may use that word)
politicians want to happen.
3. Being coward or brave is another matter. Here the reaction is
termed as one that shows cowardice.
-Abhay
mvel...@yahoo.com (Mahesh Velankar) wrote in message news:<3ef05d26.03112...@posting.google.com>...
dhananjay
state! Why is this anger? the cowardly acts must be probed isnt it? Is
it a matter of your opinion? Its still happening even if you tag it,
isnt it? Why? Why do people feel that they "own" share in
establishments on the state lands? Now is it bad? Is it cowardly?
Shall they enter an all India level competition to claim their share?
Shall there be provisions in the constitution for such preservation of
communal share against individual's freedom to move and setuphimself?
I feel it already exists as for class D government employees (who are
of helper/ tradesman/ office staff). Officer level staff is recruited
through IES for engineering posts and through IAS for ministerial
office. Rail ministry may conduct all India recruitment if the jobs
are evenly distributed. But see the real picture against this. A
Bihari who supports employment to Bihari using the all India level
competition for class D jobs heads rail ministry and our state
ministry for home. Now why shall marathi (we are not "locals") youth
tolerate this competition when state and center supports 80% state
employment at class D jobs? Have you seen advertisements in employment
news for rail jobs in madras or culcutta or Dilli or airindia's
domestic offices other than maharashtrian cities? As rightly said by
primeminister, people cant fight for government jobs as they are
reducing? Why doesnt he probe more to find why is this happening? Is
it because of such partial recruitment done in central offices in past
as we inherit Bihari "babu" culture and picture it as "Indian"
bureaucracy?
Another problem as highlighted by raj thakre is all over India exam
allows influx to get inside city and "remain here" even if they arenot
selected. Will rail ministry be responsible to take out the
nonselected lot out? Since the problem adds to already collapsing
civic life, isnt it better to find employees for class D level jobs in
Marathi youth only?
Now why do shivsena uses the method they used, the humorous side makes
me ask those cowards, "do you have better ways to ensure marathi
youth's employment's in railway's recent recruitment?" come forward
and lead my anger.
Regarding the lathi charge on kalyan station and at exam boards on
applicants from other states by shivsena, marathi youth was lathi
charged by railpolice when they demanded "share" at railway
recruitment office; we can not take it as that would be an act of
coward. We pay back. I hope our pay back is mild than Assam's tea.
Now why do I highlight "share" "own right" etc in this follow up?
Because I find all this demanding as sign of weakness.
We own railway's profit. We make it happen nitishkumar. we add to your
butter.
(which is diverted to start new lines in Bihar or west Bengal)
We compensate the loss of railway ministry.we cant tolerate its
ownership being used as weapon against us by minister's Bihar love.
As uddhav did and has showed a correct "peaceful" way to agitate, we
will not travel with valid tickets anymore if our patience is tested
by "soft force".(kapat)
I want to blast at the reader's heart that marathi youth dont lack
bruit force either. lets collide nitish.
Jai Maharashtra
Dhananjay
Pradeep
> recruitment office at Mumbai Central alleging that Maharashtrian job
> applicants were not given their due. .....BND
The general perception amongst Maharashtrians is that the Upites and
Biharis are cunningly getting through the recruitment process, with
the help from officials responsible for holding the exams. The claim
is that fairness has long gone out of the way the railways conduct
their exams. Going beyond just the railway exams, it is generally felt
that the UPites and Biharis have been flocking to the major
Maharashtrian cities in droves; entrenching themselves through unfair
and illegal means, to the detriment of the locals (the "bhumiputras").
As an example of this preception:
http://maharashtratimes.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/articleshow?msid=295600
Do you agree with this perception, or you don't?
If you don't, it means you believe either that (a) the problem doesn't
exist at all or (b) that it exists, the Maharashtrians are being
reduced in numbers and in clout rapidly, but that the perpretrators of
this phenomenon are doing so, through fair and just means.
If you agree with the perception, what would you like to offer to the
Maharashtrians, by way of a solution?
....Pradeep
strategic_guerella
telephone dept to railways, everywhere people are from U.P. and Bihar.
and in middle class marthi house, there is atleast one person is
unemployed.
anyway, the solutions is
1)50% reservation for bhumiputras and in business, every business
shuld have at least one marathi partner
(and if solution 1 is not possible then unfortunately)
2)follow the assamese
Abhay Patil
is should we condone *any* method as a reaction to the problem? Even
if you consider efficacy of such methods- they would hardly mke any
change in the big picture. BTW, I feel "Tendulkarian" (against the
posters) when posts on this forum go as far as empathizing with
Assamese who killed even infants.
The rage should be directed towards the leaders who don't invest in
long term solutions. We the elite, the IT enabled, can definitely
lobby for the change. When the Shindes, Joshis and Pawars come to US-
don't just let them give boring discourses for hours, but ask
insightful questions. The technology is definitely injecting
transparency in many processes back home- that was unthinkable in the
past. The process is going to be slow. Let us not be naive to expect
instant "raambaaN" solutions.
-Abhay
pras...@netvigator.com (Pradeep) wrote in message
Pradeep
> Why are we so naive? The problem exists- no doubt about it.
My question, intoned in naivette if you will, was addressed to Mr.
Dixit. Because he promptly felt like posting a condemnation of the
Sena once he read about the incident. But he hardly ever paused to
find out why did the masses support the Sena. I have no doubt in my
own mind the problem exists.
Question
> is should we condone *any* method as a reaction to the problem? Even
> if you consider efficacy of such methods- they would hardly mke any
> change in the big picture. BTW, I feel "Tendulkarian" (against the
> posters) when posts on this forum go as far as empathizing with
> Assamese who killed even infants.
>
> The rage should be directed towards the leaders who don't invest in
> long term solutions. We the elite, the IT enabled, can definitely
> lobby for the change. When the Shindes, Joshis and Pawars come to US-
> don't just let them give boring discourses for hours, but ask
> insightful questions. The technology is definitely injecting
> transparency in many processes back home- that was unthinkable in the
> past. The process is going to be slow. Let us not be naive to expect
> instant "raambaaN" solutions.
> -Abhay
Did I mention about an *instant* solution? I am only asking Mr. Dixit
if he perceives what many of us can clearly perceive, and that is:
stealthily, slowly and surely, we Marathi people are being sidelined
in our own state. And, as is the case with the railway board exams,
this is being done cunningly, in an absolutely unfair manner.
My point is, people who issue condemnations quickly should come down
to the ground level of reality and see for themselves what is
happening; and that they should be in a position to offer a solution:
be proactive rather than being negative.
I agree that the elite should mobilise the masses. And I also
understand the path ahead will be painful, very painful and that the
process is a very slow one.
And precisely that's why, there has to be an immediate work around, as
well. That involves stalling the juggernaut of the UPites and the
Beharis in any which way, asap. Much is lost already but if we were to
wait for the elite to mobilise the masses into introspective acts,
followed by positive follow- ups, we may have been wiped off before we
even began!
....Pradeep
bdixit
they did was a cowardly and an unjustified act. In a constitutional
democracy such methods are criminal acts and all those who undertake
such acts should be tried in courts and punished, including the leaders
who promote and support such acts, and that include the members of the
Thackery clan. Over 300 sainiks (they are goondas not sainiks) entered
the Central Railway offices, ransacked it, destroyed railway property
including files, furniture, computers and injured severely Mr. Mital.
Just like what Shiv sainiks did when they dragged the Fergusson College
principal from his home, stripped him naked and tarred and feathered
him, and when Shiv Sainiks burned down a hospital in Thane because one
of the Sena leaders died of an heart attack in that hospital. You
assumption that masses support Shiv sena is totally wrong. Masses of
persons are so affraid of the threatening tactics of Sena, that persons
like you get an impression that masses support the Sena. Mr. Thakarey is
an extra constitutional authority who once claimed that an elected Chief
minister of Maharashtra was his puppet and he was running the
Maharashtra government by remote control. He is no better that some of
the war lords of Afghanistan. He recently said that he would like
British to come back to rule India. I will write something more about
the entire situation a little later. If you like Shiv sena's methods of
solving such problems that is your prerogative. .....BND
Abhay Patil
heartedly and decide to effect an "immediate work around" (to their
perceived problems) by dragging Indian software professionals (and
their children) from their homes and make them camp at the airports to
wait for next flight to India?
-Abhay
pras...@netvigator.com (Pradeep) wrote in message news:<e512a42b.03112...@posting.google.com>...
Pradeep
> How will you feel if some Americans agree with your ways whole
> heartedly and decide to effect an "immediate work around" (to their
> perceived problems) by dragging Indian software professionals (and
> their children) from their homes and make them camp at the airports to
> wait for next flight to India?
>
> -Abhay
In so far as the Indian software professionals have infiltrated the
American industry through crooked and unfair means, that workaround is
justified on behalf of the Americans. By crooked and unfair, I mean
exactly on the lines of what the Indian Railway and similar other
officials are known to be doing; you've read enough about it in the
Marathi newspapers. Don't advertise for the posts in local Marathi
newspapers, have all Behari baboos to evaluate the applications, etc.
In other words, filter out as many locals as possible right at the
onset of the recruitment process and make the entry easy for the
beharis and Upites. If the American companies recruiting the Indian
software professionals do similar acts, there is no reason why the
Americans should also not react and seek quick-fix workarounds.
I don't have different sets of values for myself and for others.
By the way, please refrain from top- posting?
...Pradeep
Pradeep
> I condemned the action of Sainiks because, by any definition, what
> they did was a cowardly and an unjustified act. In a constitutional
> democracy such methods are criminal acts and all those who undertake
> such acts should be tried in courts and punished, including the leaders
> who promote and support such acts, and that include the members of the
> Thackery clan.
People tend to take law into their hands when they see the system does
not help them, and when they have no faith in the governance of the
govt, in the fairness of the system. It is all right for someone to
preach about the constitutional rights and duties of citizens. But
what do people do when they have been unfairly discriminated against?
Do they file a suit and wait for the next fifty years for the
judgement to be passed by the courts?
Had they not created the rucus that they did, the exams would have
gone ahead as usual, another set of 2,000 + Behari/ Upites would have
come into Maharshtra to work, with several more thousands in tow by
way of families and friends. And that would also mean about 2,000+
Maharashtrians would have lost * even the opportunity to be considered
fairly* for the selection? It is good at least this process was
stalled, at least for now.
> You assumption that masses support Shiv sena is totally wrong. Masses of
> persons are so affraid of the threatening tactics of Sena, that persons
> like you get an impression that masses support the Sena. Mr. Thakarey is
> an extra constitutional authority who once claimed that an elected Chief
> minister of Maharashtra was his puppet and he was running the
> Maharashtra government by remote control. He is no better that some of
> the war lords of Afghanistan. He recently said that he would like
> British to come back to rule India. I will write something more about
> the entire situation a little later. If you like Shiv sena's methods of
> solving such problems that is your prerogative. .....BND
I accept the Sena is a one-person show, but please let me know how
different is the Congress party? Their state level leaders have always
had to abide by the 'judgements' of a certain lady in Delhi (the lady
in question changed, the practice persists). And we read with glee how
the lady smiled on a certain Maharashra CM who waited patiently for x
hrs before being granted an interview ! If that is not running the
government by remote control, what is it? Balasaheb Thakre is only
brash in saying this openly. They all do it. Therefore, let us
eliminate this common element from our evaluation of effectiveness of
different political parties.
You have not yet answered questions that were specifically directed at
you:
*****
Do you agree with the perception [of the Maharashtrians being unfairly
treated in certain quarters, in certain situations, within their
homeland itself], or you don't?
If you don't, it means you believe either that (a) the problem doesn't
exist at all or (b) that it exists, the Maharashtrians are being
reduced in numbers and in clout rapidly, but that the perpretrators of
this phenomenon are doing so, through fair and just means.
If you agree with the perception, what would you like to offer to the
Maharashtrians, by way of a solution?[s].
******
I have no hesitation in supporting the Sena on certain issues, incl
this one. My problem with them is two fold: one, they never follow up
such actions fully well. They tend to give up somewhere along the
track, thereby making a mockery of the issue at hand. And secondly,
and more fundamentally, they have not harnessed the tremendous youth
power they have had at their disposal, into anything creative, They
were in a position to do so, and have never ever seized the
opportunity.
.....Pradeep
Pradeep
> How will you feel if some Americans agree with your ways whole
> heartedly and decide to effect an "immediate work around" (to their
> perceived problems) by dragging Indian software professionals (and
> their children) from their homes and make them camp at the airports to
> wait for next flight to India?
>
> -Abhay
It is likely that sooner or later, the Americans will change their
laws and tighten their systems to protect their indigeneous resources.
Every govt. would set the well being of its own people as a priority,
and so they will be justified in doing so.
Does the Maharashtra govt reckon the grand influx of North Indians to
be a threat to its own people, in the first place? I reckon not: after
all, it could be the only state govt. to have appointed a UPite as
their Home Minister!
By the way, the Sena didn't drag any North Indians and their children
from their homes and make them camp at the rly stations to wait for
next train back home.
...Pradeep
Pradeep
> On Tuesday, November 18, Shiv Sainiks vandalized the railway
> recruitment office at Mumbai Central alleging that Maharashtrian job
> applicants were not given their due. .....BND
Shape of the things to come:
http://maharashtratimes.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/articleshow?msid=330941
...Pradeep
Shahrukh
especially when one is abroad and has assumed a so called 'western'
perspective.
Mr.Dixit - you talk of a democracy and constitutional rights ... let
me remind you somewhere that India is one of the shining examples of a
working functional democracy in many ways even better than America.
Like Abhay Patil's naive remarks ...
>>>The rage should be directed towards the leaders who don't invest in
>>>long term solutions. We the elite, the IT enabled, can definitely
>>>lobby for the change.
Excuse me could you tell us how? Are you thinking in terms of starting
a political party? And what if any are your solutions to the railway
jobs issue?
>>>How will you feel if some Americans agree with your ways whole
>>>heartedly and decide to effect an "immediate work around" (to their
>>>perceived problems) by dragging Indian software professionals (and
>>>their children) from their homes and make them camp at the airports
to
>>>wait for next flight to India?
This is naive prattle indeed Mr.Patil, the Americans will not hesitate
to actually do worse and would ignore even globally accepted norms of
bodies like the UN. And even recent history should give you evidence
of it.
Or take Mr.Dixit's remarks like ...
>>>In a constitutional democracy such methods are criminal acts and
all those >>>who undertake such acts should be tried in courts and
punished, including >>>the leaders who promote and support such acts,
and that include the members of the Thackery clan.
This is plain stupid. India's democracy works fine and if you are
expecting a perfect democracy Mr.Dixit you are living in a world of
imported illusions.
Not only are you completely out of touch with what is Mumbai and what
is happening there but you also seem to be unaware of how the US can
and does flout even bodies like the UN !
Cmon. Jobs whether in software in the US or those of linesmen with the
Indian Railways are at a premium and even the elite IIMs are
noexceptions from the system rotting. The Dixit's and the Patil's of
the world sit there in this establishment and look down on things
which they cannot actually see. Not fair guys you think most Indians
who were unfortunate not to get a fair deal or an education like you
are only vandals? They may have and ARE making a point which you even
verbally fail to make.
The fact of the matter is that the rot has set in despite the
Tendulkars or the Dixit's or the Patils of the world and all their
education, concepts of fairness and armchair political acumen. And
your frustration too is meaningless and futile gentlemen ...
Please accept apologies if I hurt your sentiments anywhere ...
there is nothing personal about this but when I refer to the names I
refer to the perspectives or vichaardhara if you like.
Shahrukh
Abhay Patil
You are missing the point completely. I am sorry for that. We the
common people need to act in the best possible way. Not that every
action of ours will have a profound impact on the society. So it is
utterly naive to ask me if I want to start a party or have a solution
to the linesmen's problem.
All I meant was- such violence proves counter productive. When you
support such violence, you are *not* doing anything positive- but only
perpetuating the hatred.
BTW I live in India. I am optimistic- but I can not but grin when
somebody says that democracy is doing fine in India. It is not. It is
true that there is no better alternative currently. It is also true
that I, a "higher middle class" person, can live very happily in my
own cocoon for ever. Again, support of extra costitutional violence by
people like us can only make the matters worst. My suggestion- if you
can not make things better, at least don't exacerbate the rot.
-Abhay
bdixit
Your comments about Indian democracy doing better that what is being
done in USA is a visceral response to something which is untrue. I
believe that Indian constitution is an excellent instrument for
politicians of all parties and persuasion to make an attempt to improve
the lot of the most of its population. However, Shiv Sena and the likes
are uninterested and incapable of accepting that route. As Mr. Pradeep
said that "at times people (some) have to take the law into their own
hands." In my opinion such attempts, if they are repeated all over
India, the Indian Democracy you so vocally advertise will be doomed
right in front of your eyes. If you or a group of people think that
something wrong has been done to them then their leaders (and I do not
think that Shiv Sena has those type of leaders) should use their
influence to approach the problem to effect the necessary change.
Burning hospitals, feathering and tarring a principal, vandalizing
private businesses, destroying government property and physically
abusing administrators is an acceptable method. You seem to silently
approve of those tactics and at the same time tell me that Indian
democracy is working fine. Your bringing in UN with reference to USA is
totally out of context. If one follows your example then India, and
many other countries, have also flouted UN resolutions. UN as an
organization has nothing to do with how individual countries are
following their constitutions. You seem to like to throw barbs at US,
indicating that you, as many others in India has this habit to show and
talk something against US. But if you get pleasure in doing so it is OK
with me. But it is out of context and plain foolish
Persons like me are quite well informed as to what is going on in
Mumbai and other places in India. It is my suspicion however that many
in Mumbai, such as you, have a "frog in the pond" view of Mumbai. It is
not me who have imported illusions as you say (that type of sloganeering
does not mean anything, and it is typical of persons like you) it is the
person like you who silently are refusing to accept the tenets of Indian
constitution. ....Balwant Dixit
Mahesh Velankar
(or atleast had any knowledge about) the linemen's problem
in Mahaharashtra, 'before' Sena did this 'cowardly'
thing.
And I am sure, they must have already thought about some good
civilized solution within constitutional framework.
For rest of us, it will be certainly enlightening to know abut it.
Once we know that, we can start discussing it... and that will
be certainly productive.
Shahrukh
This is not correct ... what you have done.
If someone has another point of view which does not match yours you
cannot call him a COWARD. I promise you Mr.Dixit that I shall take you
on point by point even though you might call names like that ...
I still assume that you are a gentleman who CAN discuss and debate
over issues though you seem to be incapable of understanding that why
people get violent when history American (ask some red Indians if you
have seen them), Indian (ask any of the youth who did not get railway
jobs from Maharashtra or Bihar), or the world (ask Saddam or Bush or
Bin Laden). Some frogs like to believe that they can comfortably float
in any of these ponds ... so enjoy!
Shahrukh is an identity that I have assumed and I have the freedom to
do so. You too are welcome to assume one Mr.Balwant Dixit - like say
Bandopant or even
Bandya if you like ...
Are you interested in continuing this debate? I would appreciate if
you dwell on some of the points that were made and not just make petty
remarks about them ...
For example I am not advertising Indian democracy ... I am surely
advocating some of its strengths like ...
despite a majority of the electorate being illiterate and despite
tending to get violent - whenever free and fair elections have been
held in India which has been very often the same electorate has given
inspired and WISE verdits, Bandopant or Bandya anything to say about
that? Remember we are talking of the world's largest democracy ...
since you might be assuming you are a global frog
of sorts eh ...
Far from cowardice ... I eagerly await your response ...
Shahrukh
Shahrukh
scimonly...@yahoo.com (Abhay Patil) wrote in message news:<b71c59ef.03120...@posting.google.com>...
> Dear Shahrukh,
>
> You are missing the point completely. I am sorry for that. We the
> common people need to act in the best possible way.
Please tell me what is the action. Atleast ONE.
>Not that every action of ours will have a profound impact on the
society.
Oh ! Profound! Forget it first name one action. Even your Anil Awachat
cannot name one.
>So it is utterly naive to ask me if I want to start a party or have a
solution
> to the linesmen's problem.
You had written that 'The rage should be directed towards the leaders
who don't invest in long term solutions.' Please tell us how to direct
this rage.
> All I meant was- such violence proves counter productive. When you
> support such violence, you are *not* doing anything positive- but only
> perpetuating the hatred.
No one supports violence because they like it. All people here would
love to give their children the privliges you and Bandu Dixit have
been getting. The problem is that they are being denied that even
today.
> BTW I live in India. I am optimistic- but I can not but grin when
> somebody says that democracy is doing fine in India. It is not.
The same violent vandals have given brilliant in fact profund and wise
verdicts in election after electin despite NOT being educated. So do
not deride our democracy.
>It is true that there is no better alternative currently.
Again no action ... :-)
>It is also true that I, a "higher middle class" person, can live very
happily > in my own cocoon for ever.
And talk about action or ponder? Convenient cocoon eh? Or 'Cosla' if
you like.
Would you outgrow it? I have doubts
Again, support of extra costitutional violence by
> people like us can only make the matters worst. My suggestion- if you
> can not make things better, at least don't exacerbate the rot.
No one is supporting that violence. All we are saying is UNDERSTAND it
for starters.
You guys are now the establishment. And the trends are clear that this
establishment can no loneger shrink away from paying the price of
their inaction for years ... in terms of violence or drinking water or
even worse.
> -Abhay
Mr.Patil please talk in concrete terms ... and we might do some good
right?
Shahrukh
Balwant Dixit
It was and is not my intention to call you or any specific person
coward. I made a mistake in including your name in the title. I do not
know how it happened. So my apologies. I called the acts of Shiv Sena as
cowardly acts. And I do not want to change that....Balwant Dixit
dhananjay
> know ...how it happened..... my apologies. ....
Cant the same text fit a coward, who had been caught, red-handed,
doing illegal things?
Dhananjay
Pradeep
> I am sure that somebody here must have had studied
> (or atleast had any knowledge about) the linemen's problem
> in Mahaharashtra, 'before' Sena did this 'cowardly'
> thing.
>
> And I am sure, they must have already thought about some good
> civilized solution within constitutional framework.
>
> For rest of us, it will be certainly enlightening to know abut it.
>
Good trigger, Mahesh. Let's forget about the SS for a while. Let us
begin by enlisting what great jobs the Congress party and their
governments have done for us, Marathi people, before and after the
formation of the state of Maharashtra.
* At the onset, they opposed the formation of this state. Furthermore
they were relunctant to let Mumbai be a part of the state. They always
wanted Mumbai to be centrally administered. Their leader and the home
minister of the then Bombay state, Morarji Desai arranged for the
police to fire into a crowd of peaceful demonstrators. This led to the
death of 105 persons. Their memorial stands today at Hutatma Chowk in
Mumbai.
* Eventually, having judged the overwhelming support of the Marathi
people to the formation of this state, c/ w Mumbai, they relented.
Very reluctantly. And funnily enough, their leader Yashwantrao Chavan
brought from Delhi the "mangal kalash" , symbolising the formation of
the state!! He and the party he represented were prompt in taking the
credit for the very thing they had opposed tooth and nail.
* One of their Chief Ministers was a visionary. He managed to 'sell
land in water' to the builders at a throw- away price. A virtual sale
of sorts! The world took several decades to even begin using this
term; the Congy C.M. of Maharashtra had achieved this long back, in
early to mid sixtees!
* This very CM nurtured the new born Shiv Sena in the late sixtees.
The aim was to destroy the then all powerful Communist unions. The
plan worked, but alas, there were side effects as well. Mr. Dixit and
his ilk owe a lot to this CM for the butt- banging ('kulle- aapat' in
plain Marathi) acts they indulge in, whenever SS's name crops up.
* In the seventees, the Indian Railway began plans for an underground
railway system for Mumbai. Congress was at the centre and also ruled
the state itself.
Expectations of commoners in the city were raised. Boards appeared at
strategis sites signalling the possible locations of the underground
railway stations. Time passed and the project didn't seem to progress.
And then, it was dropped off as being unfeasible.
* Around the time the Asiad were hosted in Delhi (1982), a major
consignment of railway carriages, that was ordered to cater to the
desperate needs ot Mumbai's suburban railways was 'hitjacked away' to
the newly formed Dehli Suburban Railway. The centre and the state were
ruled by Congress.
* In 1982, ranks of the Mumbai Police abandoned their posts and went
on a strike! Yet another milestone in the history of the state was
thus created. The Congress was in power then.
* And in the ninetees, the Congress run govt.of the state also
achieved another milestone in establishing its national character by
chosing a UPite as a minister of the cabinet of the state of
Maharashtra! This would have been another first of its kind. So now,
we have a UPite managing affairs of Maharashtrians from Vidarbha,
Marathwada, Konkan, Satara-Sangli-Kolhapur etc etc. Long live the
spirit of national integration.
* Coming up next: Mumbai is separated from Maharashtra to become a
Union Territory. Given their skills, the Congress and the north
Indians will achieve this within the next five -seven years. More
national intergation coming our way.
> Once we know that, we can start discussing it... and that will
> be certainly productive.
All this was productive, some national spirit lovers are going to tell
us. "Look at the way Mumbai has prospered?" they'll say. Some
frog-in-the-pond persons take a different view of this, though and
don't consider this productive to the cause of Marathi people. But
that's their prerogative to do so!
....Pradeep
naniwadekar
"Pradeep" <pras...@netvigator.com> wrote -
>
> * At the onset, they opposed the formation of this state. Furthermore
> they were relunctant to let Mumbai be a part of the state. They always
> wanted Mumbai to be centrally administered. Their leader and the home
> minister of the then Bombay state, Morarji Desai arranged for the
> police to fire into a crowd of peaceful demonstrators. This led to the
> death of 105 persons. Their memorial stands today at Hutatma Chowk
> in Mumbai.
>
Morarji Desai was not Home Minister of the state when
he ordered the firing. He was Chief Minister. (Or perhaps
he had moved to Delhi and pulled the strings as a Central
Minister.) I could not find the exact date of the massacre
on google. Perhaps Pradeep himself or Abhay Patil or
Shahrukh can supply it? Durga-bai Bhagwat had suggested
that the memorial in Hutatma Chowk should be made up
of a column mentioning the number of the dead and bearing
the inscription : 'moraarajii.nchii akkal' . Morarji lived his
retired life in Mumbai but left nothing for the local university
in his will, donating most of his money to some Univ
in Gujarat.
There were several admirable things about Morarji but
he was also an ungrateful rogue in many ways like
most Gandhian leaders.
http://www.rulers.org/indstat4.html
The relevant lines from this URL are :
Chief ministers
15 Aug 1947 - 21 Apr 1952 Bal Gangadhar Kher (b. 1888 - d.
1957)
21 Apr 1952 - 1 Nov 1956 Morarji Desai (b. 1896 - d.
1995)
1 Nov 1956 - 19 Nov 1962 Yashwantrao Balwantrao Chavan (b. 1913 - d.
1984)
19 Nov 1962 - 25 Nov 1963 Marotrao Sambashio Kannamwar (b. ... - d.
1963)
5 Dec 1963 - 20 Feb 1975 Vasantrao Phulsing Naik (b. 1913 - d.
...)
20 Feb 1975 - 1 Apr 1977 Shankarrao Chavan (1st time) (b. 1920)
1 Apr 1977 - 18 Jul 1978 Vasantrao Patil (1st time) (b. 1917 - d.
...)
18 Jul 1978 - 9 Jun 1980 Sharad Pawar (1st time) (b. 1940)
9 Jun 1980 - 20 Jan 1982 Abdul Rahman Antulay
20 Jan 1982 - 2 Feb 1983 Babasaheb Bhosale (b. 1921)
2 Feb 1983 - 2 Jun 1985 Vasantrao Patil (2nd time) (s.a.)
2 Jun 1985 - 13 Mar 1986 Shivajirao Patil Nilangekar (b. 1931)
13 Mar 1986 - 24 Jun 1988 Shankarrao Chavan (2nd time) (s.a.)
25 Jun 1988 - 25 Jun 1991 Sharad Pawar (2nd time) (s.a.)
25 Jun 1991 - 3 Mar 1993 Sudhakarrao Naik (b. 1934 - d.
2001)
3 Mar 1993 - 14 Mar 1995 Sharad Pawar (3rd time) (s.a.)
14 Mar 1995 - 1 Feb 1999 Manohar Joshi (b. 1937)
1 Feb 1999 - 18 Oct 1999 Narayan Rane (b. 1952)
18 Oct 1999 - 18 Jan 2003 Vilasrao Deshmukh (b. 1945)
18 Jan 2003 - Sushil Kumar Shinde (b. 1941)
- dn
Shahrukh
>
> Shahrukh
This is what Bandya or Bandopant Dixit posted on the OTHER thread so I
am putting it here to set the record straight. Your apologies are
gracefully accepted Mr.Dixit but why are you NOT contributing tot his
debate further?
No now not for a moment am I suggesting anything like cowardice ...
;-)
Shshrukh
Message 22 in thread
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&frame=right&th=62f6a5620fc1d543&seekm=bc9be5ea.0312030212.5c5724c6%40posting.google.com#link22
Shahrukh
> cowardly acts. And I do not want to change that....Balwant Dixit
I accept your apologies in all humility.
OK so according to you and you insist that the acts of the Shiv Sena
are cowardly. Please explain why?
Why do people resort to violence? Why is history full of it?
If you look at our own history or mythology if you like ...
Rama killed Ravana ...
Krishna killed Kamsa ...
Mahabharata is violence all the way ...
might be censored ... hacked ... if you like ...
(see my post on Mahabharata & Ministry of HRD in a lighter vein.)
Shivaji was violent too ...
And so was Indira Gandhi when she 'liberated' Bangladesh ...
(And before you give Gandhi ki duhaai think twice !)
Please answer this question.
Why do people resort to violence? Why is history full of it?
And when they become violent you feel they are cowards. Look at the
names you will have to call all the illustrious people mentioned
above.
Come on Mr.Dixit ... do you like the alias Bandu or Bandopant? ;-)
Respond to it ...
With best wishes
Shahrukh
Abhay Patil
> are cowardly. Please explain why?
> Why do people resort to violence? Why is history full of it?
Shahrukh Dearest,
You are a typical "debater" who is so adept at muddling the
discussion. I will visit the other thread shortly where you castigated
me for not naming a single positive action. Had I agreed with you on
the violence- you would have never asked me that question! Aso.
Anyway, fact that the history is full of violence is irrelevant here.
In this particular incidence, Shivsainiks were cowards because they
chose soft targets who were not responsile for the situation. They
resorted to violence against the Railway officials at a local office
and applicants from Bihar who had camped on the stations. You have
even failed to understand that people like me strongly feel that the
total absence of Marathi folks in Railway workforce in Maharashtra is
deplorable and the situation needs corrective action. However,if
anyone feels that this is a way to solve the problem- they are fools
(forget whether they are right or wrong- for a moment). Had Shivsena
resorted to a "dharaNaa" against official(s) who decide the policy and
extracted a concrete assurance on the next exam- it would have been
lot more constructive and useful. Now, most probably, no one would
follow up and the situation will continue as is.
BTW, violence can not be termed cowardly when it is directed against
blatant perpetrators of the crime, and is aimed at stopping the
heinous crime- like against rapists, murderers, arsonists.
Later,
-Abhay
Shahrukh
>
> You are a typical "debater" who is so adept at muddling the
> discussion. I will visit the other thread shortly where you castigated
> me for not naming a single positive action. Had I agreed with you on
> the violence- you would have never asked me that question! Aso.
>
> Anyway, fact that the history is full of violence is irrelevant here.
> In this particular incidence, Shivsainiks were cowards because they
> chose soft targets who were not responsile for the situation. They
> resorted to violence against the Railway officials at a local office
> and applicants from Bihar who had camped on the stations. You have
> even failed to understand that people like me strongly feel that the
> total absence of Marathi folks in Railway workforce in Maharashtra is
> deplorable and the situation needs corrective action. However,if
> anyone feels that this is a way to solve the problem- they are fools
> (forget whether they are right or wrong- for a moment). Had Shivsena
> resorted to a "dharaNaa" against official(s) who decide the policy and
> extracted a concrete assurance on the next exam- it would have been
> lot more constructive and useful. Now, most probably, no one would
> follow up and the situation will continue as is.
>
> BTW, violence can not be termed cowardly when it is directed against
> blatant perpetrators of the crime, and is aimed at stopping the
> heinous crime- like against rapists, murderers, arsonists.
>
> Later,
> -Abhay
Abhay
Thanks for using the superlative to express your sentiments about me
in your salutation. And you call me a 'typical debater' whatever that
means.
You still ducked the question ... why do people get violent? And why
is history full of it. There might be valuable clues there and both
you and my pal Bandoo BND (where is he?) seem to be ducking that
question no end.
You now seem to agree that violence is essential in some contexts now
but refuse to grant that right of judgement to the people themselves.
So you think you know better than the guys who actually are jobless
and attacked the immigrants eh?
And now you do NOT take an anti violent stance or a non violent stance
but say it was not the right strategy but you would have recommended a
DHARNA !
... Come on Abhay is it really so easy for you to sit in judgement?
And recommend strategies!
If history is full of violence and you agree with that ... how can you
say it is irrelevant here? That to my mind is muddling. My suggestion
to you is that please do not belittle the opinions or actions of
others and try to discuss things without attaching your values. In
other words take an unbiased opinion and may be our discussion would
steer clear of muddled waters ...
The Shiv Sena people have already done what they did. The issue is WHY
did they get violent in this case and in general why does the Shiv
Sena get violent?
And mind you even other parties do. To take an even broader
perspective, why do people get violent. Do not duck that point Abhay
and look at history and you might get some answers!
Finally, why do you stop at the word ACTION? You sympathize with the
plight of your Marathi brethren and suggest some corrective action.
May we know what?
Waiting for your response which you have promised and I hope it is
sooner than later.
Shahrukh
Pradeep
>
Why?
> In this particular incidence, Shivsainiks were cowards because they
> chose soft targets who were not responsile for the situation. They
> resorted to violence against the Railway officials at a local office
> and applicants from Bihar who had camped on the stations.
There are several examples in history of mankind when the so-called
soft targets have had to suffer on account of the acts of their
bretheren. In some cases, these so-called soft targets were also
covert beneficiaries, too.
You reckon the railway officials 'at a local office' were not at all
responsible for the situation? Were they not party to the
manipulations of the exams? As also all those Biharis who had flocked
to attend?
>
> BTW, violence can not be termed cowardly when it is directed against
> blatant perpetrators of the crime, and is aimed at stopping the
> heinous crime- like against rapists, murderers, arsonists.
Who is the judge here? More specifically, how does one decide the
threshold of tolerance? And is this threshold universal and static, or
does it differ from a group of persons to another, and even within a
group, from time to time? Does it depend upon the circumstances a
group of persons be put into?
....Pradeep
Pradeep
> mvel...@yahoo.com (Mahesh Velankar) wrote in message news:<3ef05d26.03120...@posting.google.com>...
> > I am sure that somebody here must have had studied
> > (or atleast had any knowledge about) the linemen's problem
> > in Mahaharashtra, 'before' Sena did this 'cowardly'
> > thing.
> >
> > And I am sure, they must have already thought about some good
> > civilized solution within constitutional framework.
> >
> > For rest of us, it will be certainly enlightening to know abut it.
> >
>
> Good trigger, Mahesh. Let's forget about the SS for a while. Let us
> begin by enlisting what great jobs the Congress party and their
> governments have done for us, Marathi people, before and after the
> formation of the state of Maharashtra.
Add this to the list above:
* R.C.Sinha, the man behind the speedy planning and execution of the
Mumbai- Pune highway and several flyovers in Mumbai was removed from
his post when the Aghadi govt. took charge of the state. (The Aghadi
comprises of the Congress and the Rashtravadi Congress. Since the
latter is only a shade of the former, it is appropriate to consider
them as Congress members and to treate this as a Congress Govt.)And
guess who picked him up? Chandrababu Naidu!
http://maharashtratimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/344895.cms
Yet another 'service to the people of Maharashtra' by the Indian
National Congress!
...Pradeep
dhananjay
The act showed a resistance and was not a movement to achieve a
short-term goal. Still I think the resistance is registered and the
exams are postponed. Now lets unite more and resist more so those
exams will be conducted as state's interest. A state assembly if
passes resolution to support the class D level rail recruitment
through state employment exchange (first) why rail ministry shall have
problem?
If there is going to be all over India competition for the jobs then
its not at all leveled as bihari and up candidates are numerically
largest (due to highest unemployment) and selection probability of a
bihari candidate increases simply due to their sheer size in the lot.
The matter is worse as raj thakre had said, the unselected candidates
will remain in city and there is obvious loading of city civic life by
non marathi mass, now why shall we tolerate this?
Rail dept. must take responsibility of forcing these nonselected (for
2000 posts lacs of candidates enter isnt it?) elements dissolve in
Marathi way of living, rather adding to undissolved immigrant mass.
>BTW, violence can not be termed cowardly when it is directed
>against....rapists, -Abhay
Dont you see rape on Marathi mass? Isnt rape, a forced value change, a
punishment to your identity?
Dhananjay
Mee MarAThi
> >against....rapists, -Abhay
>
> Dont you see rape on Marathi mass? Isnt rape, a forced value change, a
> punishment to your identity?
>
> Dhananjay
Hi All,
I am back here after a very short but at that time enthusiastic
and hopeful presence. I won't have liked to waste my energy discussing
the issue now merely for intellactual pleasure or to satisfy my itch
of doing something for the social problem, but the last line in
Dhananjay's post made me rethink, and I am here with you all great
people to share some rudimentary, yet potent arguments and solutions,
which are perfectly practicable.
(One can directly jump to
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=meemarathi&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=c48928b8.0306160319.79ac6ad5%40posting.google.com&rnum=2
)
The situation in Maharashtra cannot be more correctly described,
but as rape of Marathi culture and values. And here Dhananjay takes us
to THE root cause. The current issue of railways recruitment is just a
mere soft demonstration of where this root problem can take us,
Maharashtra in particular, and India in general.
The problem is not whether Biharis or UPites are being brought
into Maharashtra. There have been several imports to Maharshtra in the
history, ranging from Marwaris to Gujrathis to Parsis to Jews. What is
important is how they assimilate themselves in the Marathi culture,
what they contribute to it, what their response and attitude of
looking towards Maharashtra are. (On all these aspects, you can
compare the behaviour of Indians residing in US for that matter.)
And on all these accounts, we find that these new imports have
least regard towards Marathi traditions, Marathi ethics, Marathi
values, Marathi ways of living. Nor are they interested in these. What
they are interested in is Hindiisation of Maharashtra, (contrast Kirit
Somaiyya's attitude towards Marathi with that of Kripa Shankar
Sinh!)and unless we show some toughness in dealing with them,
Maharashtra is sure to get included in the list of BIMARU, with their
typical feudal, static, unprogressive culture dominating.
It's indeed unfortunate and ironical that to fight the dominance
of such a feudal culture, Marathi Manus has to look himself a bit
conservative and resistant and intolerant. But that is the way it is -
everywhere around the world.
Amar Singh and Abu Azmi with their open challenge to ShivSainiks
have revealed how much respect towards the feelings of Bhumiputras
they have. In Mumbai, the stronghold of Sena, they can make such
public statements and still wonder freely speaks a lot about how the
democracy in India functinos, and whether Shivsena values freedom of
speech. The mere reply given by Balasaheb by asking these SP leaders
to conduct such a rally in Assam speaks a lot.
To BND, I have nothing to say. He is like the typical 19th century
reformists, who thought only parlmentarian way would be panacea, who
didn't know that before the Queen paid heed to their representations,
India was already stripped off of her treasures, who scoffed at the
massess for they themselves were elite. I am here for the realists.
Nice that we all at least concur that the problem DOES exist.
My solution lies in the use of Marathi everywhere in Maharashtra,
and opposition to Hindi, rather total reluctance to use of Hindi. Most
people agree on doing the first thing (because that means doing
nothing!), but differ on the second. They can't comprehend why Hindi
needs to be barred. The simple answer is the similarity between
Marathi and Hindi, scripts inclusive, makes it extremely easy for a
Hindi-speaking fellow to settle in Maharashtra for decades without
understanding Marathi.
Instead of identifying ourselves with the North Indians, we should
group ourselves with South Indians, who have proven record of social
and economic progress and justice.
As an alternative to Hindi, I naturally suggest English; there are
exceptions to be made, if's and but's to be answered.
Discussion on this issue was started by Dhananjay many months back
under a thread expressing concern over the Amarathi representatives in
Maharashtra
I have presented my case in (rather uncomfortable and irritating!)
detail at:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=c48928b8.0306100511.74fa4741%40posting.google.com&rnum=2
What is important is I am practising the solution proposed and I
have been successful in finding several like-minded people across
Maharashtra. (Mumbai constitutes 1/10th of Maharashtra.)
It is easy to advise restraint, sitting in the armchair, miles
from the battleground, but one who is facing the bullets is impossible
to get convinced.
:- Maratha, A proud supporter of Marathi cause.
bdixit
had originally said about the tactics used by Shiv Sena and its
leaders. I have not raised any issue about how important Marathi
language is for the preservation of Marathi culture and how one should
preserve it. I have cited specific examples in my posts where Shiv Sena
followers have used violent tactics that has nothing to do Marathi
language or preservation of Marathi culture. The incidences I had cited
include (i) An attack on the principal of Fergusson College (Pune)
because the Shiv Sena followers claimed that persons like Indira Gandhi
were listed as alumni and they wanted the Principal to remove these
names. He was dragged from his home, stripped naked and feathered and
tarred. Is that a justifiable use of "violence", and was the Principal
really responsible for who were the alumni and was he authorized to
remove names from the list of alumni. Is it correct to remove the names
of the alumni just because one group does not like those individuals?
(ii) When a Shiv Sena leader was admitted to a hospital in Thane he died
after an heart attack. The hospital was burned down by Shiv Sena
followers. Is that a justifiable violent act? Can you explain to me as
to what this action has to do with saving Marathi language or culture?
(iii) Now the situation with railway recruitment exam in Mumbai. Is
destroying railway property, attacking some junior administrator and
beating him up and ransacking the office of the Central Railway a
justifiable way to usher in the change the Marathi Manus or what Marathi
mass wants? At present Shiv Sena is a part of the Central Government
both in the Parliament and in the administrative side (Minister level).
The Speaker of the house is a Shiv Sena leader of no small stature. I
have also read many times that Supremo Thackery has direct access to the
DyPM and the PM. Is it not possible for the leaders of Shiv Sena to
meet with the PM, DyPM, Speaker of the House (Mr. Joshi), or others
higher up, to take this issue and try to resolve it, even if it means a
new legislation at Central level? Or at the state level? Indian
Railways is a Central Government Department, and legally all jobs in
that department can be filled by any citizen of India irrespective from
which state he or she comes from and where he/she wants to work or is
posted. Do you have the data on how many "Marathi mass"
representatives applied for the 2200 positions that were open?
Certainly persons from Bihar, UP and Rajasthan applied as they have
every right to do. And they applied in large numbers. One person who
had worked in Indian Railways some yr. ago said to me that these jobs
are very demanding. The persons have to stay on the railway tracks for
several weeks at a time and sometimes several months away from their
families. Many yr. ago, he said, Marathi persons were not that much
interested in such jobs. That is just one person's statement. It may
be true or may not be true.
I had only objected, and I still object, and will continue to
object, to the violent methods of protesting this perceived injustice.
You have skirted around the issues and have given a very articulated
justification for the points I did not raise. And if you wish to call
me a "19 century reformist" (or should it be 20 the century) I accept
that label with all the pride I can muster, but I just do not think that
your categorization of me or others have any importance as far as I am
concerned. Others like Pradeep and Shahrukh can go on justifying the
violence as a acceptable method of change but I they are wrong from my
point of view, and I do not need to debate why. Were some Sikh leaders
wrong when they took violent actions against many Indian citizens? After
all from their perspective a terrible wrong was done to them. Are
Kashmir separatists have a right to use violent methods since they
believe in their cause? Are naxalites right for the violent methods
they use to promote their cause. Just citing historical list of acts of
violence is not a justification for that method. Such efforts fail to
understand the nature of violence which can be called justifiable.
Citing examples of Ram against Ravan, Shivaji against muslmans etc. are
totally inappropriate examples. But they should do what they think is
right.
Just something that was brought to my attention a couple of days
ago. One of the performing Arts Institute in Goa hired two Maharashtrian
tabla players. People in Goa want to dismiss these two tabla players and
send them back to Mumbai, because they are Marathis from Mumbai. They
do not belong in Goa. It would been very appropriate for a few from Goa
to attack these tabla players and run them out of Goa. Goans want to
preserve what is rightfully theirs. Why two tabla players from Mumbai
should come to Goa to take jobs away from Goan tabla players. Let us
become protectors of all regions and use violent methods to keep or
terrorize persons from other parts who might have a legitimate reason to
seek jobs or work some where else. Last yr. when I was talking to
someone from Konkan, I was told that many people from Mumbai
(Mumbikars) are coming to Konkan, buying land, taking good jobs away
from Konkanis and disturbing the peaceful situation in Konkan. I come
from Konkan. May be it would be appropriate to kick these Mumbaikars
out by attacking them. After all most of these Mumbaikars do not speak
Konkani or Malvani. I feel for Konkanis since I come from Konkan. I
have also heard the people from Kolhapur area do not like people from
Mumbai. Maharashtrians from Vadodra do not like Marathis from Mumbai.
May be each of this group should establish a Sena and use violent
methods to keep their "identity and culture." This is all downright
silly. I think that the main problem with Marathi mass is their
unwillingness to go to other parts of India and show what they can do.
The same is true with another community, Bangalis.
You are advocating that Marathis should join people from the South.
Shiv Sena leaders started their first act by going against South
Indians. Shiv Sena wanted to kick these South Indian out of Mumbai
because they were taking jobs from Marathis. Violent acts were used
then by SS to make this known. Well. I have said
enough.............BND
Abhay Patil
> Your well written post is really inconsequential in relation to what I
> had originally said about the tactics used by Shiv Sena and its
> leaders. I have not raised any issue about how important Marathi
> language is for the preservation of Marathi culture and how one should
Very well said. Thanks for taking time to articulate your thoughts. -Abhay
Shahrukh
> violence as a acceptable method of change but I they are wrong from my
> point of view, and I do not need to debate why.
Dear Mr.Dixit
Thanks for posting your position elaborately and I sincerely
appreciate it.
You also say in the same breadth that you do not need to debate why!
And yet you posted ! Are you saying that I should not post an
arguement which may not concur with yours? (I speak for myself and not
Pradeep.)
Let me offer you what I see ...
The main perspective you take is ...
Violence is wrong.
Nobody would disagree with it.
And yet violence and killing remain consistent, recurring factors
through the history of human society.
Even in these so called modern 21st century. It seems to have no link
to development or economic prosperity. Or else why would US attack
Iraq. My guess is because they wanted to make sure that peace loving
organizations like Bechtel get work to do ! ;-)
What can be done?
My suggestion: Instead of wishing it away - let us accept it.
Sure - one always has non violent, peaceful ways of dealing with
situations but in many situations and contexts - they do not seem to
work!
And when they do not work violence is seen as inevitable by those who
do such acts. And before we jump and say cowardly, barbaric act pause
and think ...
When you pause and think you go into a state where you wonder should
you be killing your own brethren for the sake of jobs or kingdoms?
That is the typical Arjuna state of mind ...
which both you and Abhay Patil clearly and abundantly reflect.
For Indians and Hindus - just imagine - we have a God who actually
motivates such Arjuna mind sets to go ahead and be violent and kill!
He is a God mind you.
Even if you take him as a human being or fictitious character he has
been globally acknowledged as a character beyond any characters ...
hithertohenceforth.
You would know that in India the oath is taken on the Gita which is
all about this message of Krishna.
Are you now saying that you and Mr.Patil have a better philiosophy?
And know better? Come on.
Every political party has resorted to violence in India. Why?
There are many who mouth non violent platitudes but are as violent as
it can get. And now the extreme positions are available in the
political space. Which obviously power hungry people are going to
take.
Just next door to India there are religious fundamentalist force who
were instrumental in gifting Ground Zero to the US ... do you feel
that Indians should live in that insecurity forever just because we
want to be peaceful?
Can we atleast look at violence sensibly at all?
Or continue to look at it with our idealistic, romantic perspectives?
If you do not want to debate this it is fine by me. If you debate this
without condescending it would be delightful! The choice of course is
yours ...
Shahrukh
Enigmatic
conflict...saama, daama, danDa, bheda.
As far as the first step goes, in the system hierarchy, whom to tell
that there is a conflict matters alot (the person who is listening
should have proper authority to make decisions). Also, who is
complaining is also very important (the person should have proper
support of the group he/she representing). If the system hierarchy is
not responding well, then further steps follow. I doubt the second
step and might be considered as corruption.
MaraThi maNus is at third level now in the context of this issue. I
think, what Abhay and Mr. Dixit wants to ensure that, before going to
step 3, previous steps have been touched with due sincerity. I hate to
say but our system which is in such a sorry state that without the
second step of 'daama' nothing is 'moved'. At this point, danDa
remains as the only option WHICH SHOULD BE DIRECTED TOWARDS THE CAUSE
OF THE SITUATION, that is the system and not those applicants who have
full right to apply for the job.
To get your view on the stage, you don't have to be a vandal. I would
not support any abusive or unjust exercise of power which ShivSena has
demonstrated several times (FIRE, Valentine day, Anand Dighe, etc.
etc.). I think, the decision makers of ShivSena are willing to let
others equate their organization with vandalism.
I see what Mr. Shahrukh is trying to put forth but the arguments (with
the examples of the examples of Rama-RavaNa, Krishna-Kansa and the
history full of violence) used by him are pretty naive. The actions of
Arjuna, motivated by Krishna, do not show any vandalism. He did not
make innocents suffer in the process of punishing the bad guys.
Chalo yahan pe Shahrukh bhai bhi hai to ek filmi dialog mar leta hu...
"Khud hi ko kar buland itana ke khuda khud puchhe ke bata ai bande
teri raja kya hai"
Show them that MaraThi maNus is not afraid of the competition but
there should be equal opportunity system to prove our mettle otherwise
we will have to forcibly change the system (not the competitors).
- Enigmatic Identity
PS: One sentence of Abhay Patil impressed me very much...'Never hate
in plurals'. Thanx.
Abhay Patil
> in plurals'. Thanx.
It is a famous quote by PG Wodehouse. It shows how the gifted can
convey so much with so few worsds. He was put in jail by Germans.
There he made some sarcastic speeches on radio- which made british
call him a traitor! When asked doesn't he hate Germans, he said thus.
-Abhay
naniwadekar
"Abhay Patil" <scimonly...@yahoo.com> wrote -
>
> It is a famous quote by PG Wodehouse. It shows how the gifted can
> convey so much with so few worsds. He was put in jail by Germans.
> There he made some sarcastic speeches on radio- which made british
> call him a traitor! When asked doesn't he hate Germans, he said thus.
> -Abhay
>
That Wodehouse made some sarcastic speeches which the
British were too touchy (and the Germans too stupid) to notice
is PuLa's, and Wodehouse fans', version of events. I haven't
examined the issue in detail myself and cannot say just how
far PuLa was right or wrong. Wodehouse lobby has spent
lot of effort defending their hero and they may well be right
to considerable extent. But I have read that some commentators,
though they did not find Wodehouse's utterances on Radio
while in German captivity traitorous, found his Radio
speeches idiotic in some respects.
A quick google-search on "wodehouse radio speeches german"
brings up some links which interested reader could examine.
- dn
Shahrukh
> the examples of the examples of Rama-RavaNa, Krishna-Kansa and the
> history full of violence) used by him are pretty naive. The actions of
> Arjuna, motivated by Krishna, do not show any vandalism. He did not
> make innocents suffer in the process of punishing the bad guys.
Innocents have ALWAYS suffered in such conflicts Enigmatic!
Rama Ravana or Krishna Kaumsa violence are facts. Even if you do NOT
accept them as historical they are certainly mythologies and an
integral part of the Indian psyche. And they have shaped the Indian
mind and will continue to do so.
You might call all this naive or whatever, but the fact remains that
Indian heroes too have been violent. The Mahabharata left the Pandavas
as victors amidst much wailing and a lot of corpses all around. That
was the picture right?
Krishna was a master at using saama, daama, danDa, bheda.
But even he ADVOCATED use of violence when he found that these did not
work!
Others who get violent today do NOT get violent because they enjoy it!
They risk their own lives too. So think twice before calling them
vandals.
> Chalo yahan pe Shahrukh bhai bhi hai to ek filmi dialog mar leta hu...
>
> "Khud hi ko kar buland itana ke khuda khud puchhe ke bata ai bande
> teri raja kya hai"
And thanks for this 'filmy dialogue' - appreciate the spirit.
You have quoted something which is far from filmy actually.
This is actually Iqbal who also wrote Saare Jahan Se Achcha Hindostan
Hamara!
> Show them that MaraThi maNus is not afraid of the competition but
> there should be equal opportunity system to prove our mettle otherwise
> we will have to forcibly change the system (not the competitors).
Yes I agree with this 100% - the point is to do that you need ACTION
right?
And none of these guys talk of any ACTION.
> PS: One sentence of Abhay Patil impressed me very much...'Never hate
> in plurals'. Thanx.
Indeed the idyllic world of Mr.Wodehouse and others of his ilk will
never stale!
It will remain very propah British (colonial?) romantic and escapist!
Enjoy it laddies!
Shahrukh
Pradeep
to overcome the problems the Marathi society is facing at the moment.
We need to begin with some serious introspection, followed by looking
around us to get to know what brought us into the state we find
ourselves in, in our own homeland. Let us also benchmark others who
succeeded where we couldn't.
Our strengths:
1.Large educated middle class.
2.A fighter spirit.
3.Honesty
4.Several dedicated social workers and organisations amongst us.
Our Weaknesses:
1.Laziness
2.Acute awareness more of our rights than of our responsibilities
3.Contendness: happy to live in the past glory
4.Low self esteem
5.Lack of unity and support for one another (Stems from 4 above).
Opportunities around:
1. We have some of the largest industrial cities/ towns in India.
Threats:
1. People from all over are congregating upon these cities. We have
been washed out by them, fairly or otherwise.
So what can be done?
A. More and more Marathi educated persons would get into setting up
their own
businesses or be managers for those of others. These people should be
keen on giving preferential treatment to Marathi people when they seek
employees.
Easier said than done. Because Marathi people tend to shun hard menial
work,
and are more concerned with their rights than their durties and
responsibilities. Especially true of certain provinces: people from
the Konkan
have a typical propensity for such traits. An attitude of 'not wanting
to do better' ("aamkaa nakaa taa!"), shunning better ways of life, and
then withdrawing into a cocoon of sorts. Therefore, Marathi people
need to look around and see what others did. Especially the South
Indians who came to Mumbai in the fiftees and sixtees in droves, and
set themselves up so very well. They were (are) ready to work hard,
have had no false concepts of dignity and therefore would never reject
any type of work coming their way. And they were very methodical about
the way they went about. They set up the real good, fast food shops
(the ubiquitous Udipi restaurents). Evidentyly, the owners of these
shops themselves toiled very hard and diligently ; they were well
supported by their community financially in the initial days and the
labour was also drawn from amongst their own community. This labour is
wonderful; very hard working, and ever ready to learn. This sharply
contrasts the Marathi labour who would like to take leaves at
alarmingly small intervals, and would produce as small a throughput as
is possible, To be able to employ such people and yet not affect
productivity calls for a considerable change of mindset. This is
something that educated people can and should take upon themselves.
(And some social organisations could help in this regard?) In small
businesses, for example, a Marathi owner or a Marathi manager should
recruit Marathi labour / workforce, AND make special efforts to coach
the workforce into the usefulness of all the qualities that have stood
the likes of the Udipis in good stead.
Mr. Kishore Aras worked as Personal Officer in reputed manufacturing
companies : GKW, Indian Hume Pipes, and Kamanis amongst them, between
late 50s and late 70s. He contiues to work as an HR consultant to many
small and medium businesses in and around Mumbai. Mr. Aras has written
an excellent account of his times, "Athavaninchya Athavani. 2003.
Mumbai: Mouj Prakashan". Beginning with his formative years, he
narrates at length of the grooming he has had at GKW, and how he
followed it up with some good, interesting work at IHP and especially
at Kamanis. Lest one dismiss his accounts as irrelevent today, it
should be borne in mind that the days he worked through these
manufacturing organisations, industry was booming in Mumbai and so was
labour trouble of all sorts.He worked through turbulent times with
regard to labour management.
A few things stood out from his writtings. He made special efforts at
Kamanis
to recruit the locals in Mumbai. When he joined them, the Keralites
had a
majority in their workforce. He found them very demanding, and
irresponsible.
Their leaders were happy to raise more and more demands and hold the
management
at ransom, although their productivity was good. Mr. Aras dared them
and stopped them in their tracks. He began recruiting more and more
Marathi persons. They were led by Comrade Yeshwant Chavan of Lal
Nishan group. In Com. Chavan, Mr, Aras found a willing, responsible
and very supportive leader who was committed to true welfare of the
workers. Together they managed to grow the strength of the Marathi
workforce, and still enjoy overall good relations between the
management and the union. The Keralites resented this and complained
to the top bosses, the owners. Mr.Aras narrates how Mr, Navneetbhai
Kamani, one of the directors of the comnpany (and who was directly
overseeing the operations of the Mumbai plants) once interrogated Mr,
Aras on this. Upon which, Mr. Aras asserted that he was indeed
recruiting the local labour more and more, also pointing out to him
that this has had a salutory effect on the productivity and made
labour trouble, a thing of the past at their plants. Mr. Kamani had to
agree.
I narated this at some length to make my point: the Marathi labour
needs to be
given an opportunity AND that they also need to be coached into
understanding
the reality and the fact that, diligence and hard labour are two
things thay
should work upon seriously if they are to survive and grow. Today, the
political parties as well as their affiliate labour unions in
Maharashtra are hopeless in these respects and it is simply not worth
expecting them to do anything concrete and positive for the workers.
That's where some social organisations could also step in.
B. Our self esteem is at all time low now. This reflects in the way we
easily
accept the onslaught of other languages- notably Hindi, on Marathi.
Also we are ever willing to shun conversing to each other in Marathi
and instead take
pride in preferring to talk in Hindi. I don't see this trait in any
other
people from India, whether they be South Indians of any flavour, or
Gujeratis,
or Bengalis, or Punjabis. This defeatist mindset needs to change. We
need to be justly proud of our language and make sure we don't let it
be polluted. Flexibility is one thing, being drowned is another.
C. Let us support one another justly. The overdone "kaay samajto
swataalaa?" attitude needs moderation to a considerable extent. It is
easy to see this spirit of unity prevail amongst all others:
Gujeratis, Punjabis, Tamils, Kannadigaas, and of course, the UPites
and Biharis. In the least we may begin by supporting Marathi suppliers
wherever possible.
...Pradeep
Mee MarAThi
Thanks Shree Dixit for taking note of my post.
I had pointed out in the my post that I would be bringing you to
the real issue behind the present one, and the need is to find a
solution to the parent issue rather than these offsprings, which would
neverthless be there if we just suggest myopic solutions and overlook
the real problem. We must accept that the real problem is cornering of
Marathi people in their own state, and it IS being perceived by
Marathi people here to be so. That's why Shiv Sena gets overwhelming
support when it supports Marathi cause. You might not have raised this
issue, but my post was not only on which issues you discussed.
If the original problem is solved to a great extent, no more
politicising of it is possible. You might fear that ShivSena won't
want to solve the problem satisfactorily lest it would lose
opportunity to politicise it again. Look at DMK and AIDMK. Both are
staunch supporters of Tamil cause, but there hardly is any need for
the two to show who is more Tamil than the other. They need not rake
up now any issue related to discrimination against Tamils. If at all
they have to do it on some national stage, they do it together. (And
this is possible only if there are regional parties. When Karnataka
and Maharashtra are both Congress-ruled (or for that matter
BJP-ruled), no solution to Border issue is possible!)
So what is essential is finding solutions to that problem. Pradeep
has for most part of discussion, tried to bring it to this larger
theme. (My personal thanks to him for recognising the problem with
Hindi!) (Well, again, Shahrukh finds the theme to be whether one who
is so desperate so as to resort to violence as solution is doing right
or whether there can be any alternatives, while I find the theme to be
the injustice to Marathi people. After all, everybody has his/her own
spectactles! But the issue that Shahrukh perceives as the theme can be
better discussed under a group on, say, philosophy. In SCIM, let's
discuss the theme of MaraThi maNUs!)
The solutions proposed by Pradeep are perfectly sound. After all
economy is the engine of all progress. Culture and traditions are
nothing if we cannot control our own economy. That's why I had
suggested (and practise) to buy from only those shops where sellers
speak to customers in Marathi. (By the way, Mr. Aras' account that he
refers to is really interesting and eye-opening, and one should read
it in original.)
Now regarding this particular issue. Mr. Dixit, though I perfectly
agree with you that some previous acts of Shivsainiks were nothing but
vandalism, the one in context cannot be termed so. Neither is it
coward. (There is a lot of discussion on this earlier in this thread.)
It has become a habit on part of most non-Maharashtrians,
NDA-constituents inclusive, and esp. English dailies, to take ShivSena
for granted. At some time, Sena has to do something which shows that
it still commands a lot of popular support, and that it can still use
'its own ways' to tackle the problem. (One cannot forget that in 70s
and 80s, only such acts made the managers in big organisations and
hotels give in and accept applications from Marathi people.) A
politician of the standing of Thakare must be knowing that these acts
are only symbolic. But they also achieve a lot. I don't speak for
Thakare, if he fails to promote Marathi cause, I won't support him, I
had earlier also cleared this. Only this agitation led to postponement
of the exams by Nitish Kumar. (He didn't do so even after the real
violence in Bihar and Assam.) Thus this ransacking of railway office
did achieve its purpose in the short-term context. What else could
have achieved the same result? Negotiations?
I really appreciate that you actively keep watch on the happenings
in Maharashtra, despite the geographical distance. But you miss a few:
Bal Thakare did apologize after the hospital in which Anand Dighe
passed away was burnt. Shiv-Sainiks didn't abuse Ferg Principal for
inclusion of Indira Gandhi, but of Jinnah, Father of Pakistan.
(Remember, apart from CPI, Shivsena strongly supported emergency? Bal
Thakare was admirer of Indira.) But yet, I wholeheartedly submit to
your opinion that both these acts were sheer vandalism. Esp. such
institutions like medical centres and colleges must be kept above all
such acts, and there sanctity has to be maintained - a rather
difficult thing to do in India, or even in most places of the world!
The argument that Marathi people should go to other parts and show
what they can do is very catchy. It is a fashion to castigate Marathi
people for they stay only in Maharashtra from birth: For education,
for jobs/business etc. But those who state this should bear this in
mind that people tend to move towards prosperous, peaceful regions.
Why should then Maharashtrians migrate outside? We have here good
education, we have good economy, we have environment where we can
prosper, and these things are created by mainly Marathi people
collectively. Same is the case for Bengalis. Therefore no need to look
down at Marathi students for they stay at homes and do graduation as
against students from UP or MP or Delhi, who come down to Pune or
Mumbai or Sangli or Aurangabad and study. We don't need to do that. We
have built our institutions, raised them to a standard, and maintained
it reasonably. And when it does matter, the figure of number of
applications for US visa by Marathi students wanting to do PG in US
(or any other country) in the consulates in Mumbai speaks a lot!
Some astrays:
19th century reformers (from Raja Rammohan Roy (1830s) to Justice
Ranade or Gopal Krishna Gokhale (late 19th and early 20th centur),
though very honest, and sometimes effective, achieved far less than
what actually they could have. But it is indeed undeniable that they
led India, or part of India (including Maharashtra and Bengal) in her
enlightenment period, if it can be termed so.
Shivaji Maharaj was not against Musalmans, nor did he fight against
Islam. This is a purely primitive misconception. One who bears this in
mind knows not Maharashtra's history. (In fact, Shivaji was the first
to propose "dakhkhan dakhkhanyaanchaa!")
When I say that we should group ourselves with S. Indians, it
naturally does not mean to invite all their clan in Maharashtra to
settle. What I mean is to realise and accept that culturally we are
closer to them than Northerners, and only then can we continue to be
progressive. What Sena did to them in 60s is right in my eyes.
Jobs/business in Konkan area is now in the hands of Mumbaikars -
correct, but not Marathi-speaking. This has happened particularly due
to Konkan Railway. Konkani people have failed to grab the
opportunities, and Hindi/Telagu people in Mumbai have captured them,
using their groupism and chains (read 'networks'!). You can travel in
Konkan and verify for yourself.
The event in Goa Shree Dixit refers to typically exemplifies what I
say is problem in front of "India in general". We need to therefore
find ways to solve the basic issue. By the way, many renowned
non-Marathi artists (Pt. Jasraj, Pt. Dagar, Konkani - Varsha
Usgaonkar, late Jitendra Abhisheki) have made Maharashtra their home,
and we are proud for that. Of course, I had earlier also mentioned
that we are culturally advanced.
The 'system' is a very very vague abstraction Mr. Enigmatic. The
Bihari applicants is its tangible personification. So naturally anger
would be directed against them. This happens everywhere around the
globe. It's an amoral issue. It happens that way, so it happens that
way! That those Bihari applicants had double opportunities to appear
for the exam both in Bihar and Mumbai (because exams were not national
level, and ads appeared only in English and Hindi dailies, not a
single Marathi paper - a point raised often) is definitely not the
equal opportunity for Marathi people that you speak of. Further, as
rightly observed by Raj Thakare, it normally happens that those
applicants come for the exam in Mumbai and don't return at all. Who
looks after that?
Konkanis in Konkan might be infamous for laziness, and their
staticity, but one community originated there has been doing
remarkably well for last 250 years after it left Konkan. Chitpavans
are perhaps one of the most educated and affluent and reasonably
diversified Marathi community. I wonder whether that has translated in
a really tolerant and progressive mindset as well!
:- Maratha,
A proud supporter of Marathi cause.
> leaders. I have not raised any issue about how important Marathi
Enigmatic
> The 'system' is a very very vague abstraction Mr. Enigmatic. The
> Bihari applicants is its tangible personification. So naturally anger
> would be directed against them. This happens everywhere around the
> globe. It's an amoral issue. It happens that way, so it happens that
> way!
No way I can take this.
May seem a little idealistic but if it's working that way, then it's
WRONG and 'WE' need to change it. I am not here to take it just
because it works or happens that way. I also give credit to HOW it has
been done.
What was your reaction when Germany opened doors for Indian software
professionals and many of them were brutalized by neo Nazis out there?
What was your reaction when some fanatic americans killed our Sikh
brother just because he was brown with a beard?
chor sodun sannyashala fashi denya sarakha prakar aahe ha. Just
because it works? c'mon. But I am glad that you yourself quoted it as
an amoral issue.
> That those Bihari applicants had double opportunities to appear
> for the exam both in Bihar and Mumbai (because exams were not national
> level, and ads appeared only in English and Hindi dailies, not a
> single Marathi paper - a point raised often) is definitely not the
> equal opportunity for Marathi people that you speak of.
That's what I said in my previous post. If the SYSTEM is not giving us
equal opportunities, then change it one way or another. Even if it's a
vague concept, anyone would agree that you can not on your whim punish
someone who is not responsible for that JUST TO LEAVE AN IMPACT.
Otherwise it will all be an ADHER GARDI all over the place.
Again....'Never hate in plurals'...just because someone is
BIHARI/BLACK/MUSLIM.
Wait a min.....................I can feel the ring of angels on my
head and also those wings...lol.
cheers,
Me pan Marathi.
bdixit
Director of Yerawada Psychiatric Wing.
(<http://www.esakal.com/today/pune28.html>). Dr. Lavatre was physically
attacked and his face was painted black. His office was vandalized. Two
other employees, one a female servant and a male secretary were also
beaten up. The reason. for this action! Dr. Lavatre apparently had
disciplined a couple of female employees for not being punctual, for
leaving office earlier than designated office hours, and for not looking
after the patients. Is this action justified? Even if the reprimands
were not proper is such an action proper. Shiv Sena is not a political
party. It is using "politics" to establish a "gang rule." That it is
for reform and it is for the best interest of Marathis is just a excuse
of convenience. If Shivaji was alive today he would have disowned the
leaders of this party.....BND
Abhay Patil
> Just take a look at what Shiv Sainiks did to Dr. Paras Lavatre, the
> Director of Yerawada Psychiatric Wing.
While it is true that Shivsainiks have been vandals- I still have a
soft corner for the grass root Shivsena workers who treat Thackarey as
God. They are the symptoms- not the cause. They are raw, immature,
childish and it is the leadership that treats them as pawns in their
heinous games. When Thackarey bellows to kill muslims or char the
Wankhede Stadium pitch- they just do it, almost as if under the spell,
with 100% conviction that they are doing *the* right thing. They of
course some times take the law (as in Thackareys law) in their own
hands- which is condoned by the leadership. (The Yerawada incident
sure was a local thing.) This raw energy is many a time seen in
"constructive" mode. Some examples: after the Mulund railway blast it
was *only* the Shivsainiks who rushed to help victims when others were
busy facing cable tv cameras. Network of ambulances set up by Shivsena
is very effective.
BTW Raju Parulekar has written a good article on Shivsena in diwali
ank (2003) of akshar.
-Abhay
naniwadekar
> soft corner for the grass root Shivsena workers who treat Thackarey as
> God. They are the symptoms- not the cause. They are raw, immature,
> childish and it is the leadership that treats them as pawns in their
> heinous games.
>
While it is true that Thackeray manipulates the blind loyalty
of his followers, sometimes towards good cause and sometimes
towards bad, why should they be excused for their immaturity?
Bernard Levin once stated that in democracy, every citizen is
a politician and those in politics are just their representatives.
It is a middle-class myth that Indian people are good and
deserving of better politicians. It is politicians who are clever
(albeit mostly in the bad sense of the term); people are stupid.
By the way, when Shiv Sainiks went on rampage after Anand
Dighe's death in Thane, they were only emulating the brilliant
example set by Congress followers who stoned President
Venkatraman's car when he tried to visit Sonia Gandhi in the
hours after Rajiv's assassination. The reason : The murderer
was from South India; and the President also hailed from the
same region. If Prof Dixit's posts on Sena are not to lack
credibility, he should stop pretending that violence is exclusive
to it; to view/present facts with a jaundiced eye can only
distort the picture. Shiv Sena's steady electoral success
over last 15-20 years gives
a lie to his claim, made in this thread on 24 Nov 2003, that
"assumption that masses support Shiv sena is totally wrong".
Abhay and Pradeep don't have any axe to grind; so they
are able to see the other side's points. But I digress.
I once had incredible good fortune to have dinner with
a person who claimed to be close to 'Saheb'. I doubt
whether the mountebank had ever been anywhere near Bal
Thackeray but he was such capital entertainment that I happily
pretended to believe everything he was telling. I wonder how
any human being, irresepctive of whether he has had the
benefit of education or not, can talk the kind of nonsense
he talked. (Are you listening, Manoo Bodas of Seattle, WA
and Dr Subhash Phatak (imppio), the self-anointed 'imp P
In Oregon'? I am a big fan of your foolish posts, g'n'l'men.)
With such dopes around, is it any wonder that every
liar from Mahatma Gandhi to Atal Behari Vajpayee
has thrived in Indian politics? The stupid public, which lets
the big cats get away with plunder, is the chief culprit.
The fault, my dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, nor yet in our
politicians, but in you and me.
- dn
dhananjay
inconsistencies and opposing the objectives of preservation of Marathi
way of living, are the key points I see in this thread. It wont work
anymore.
Why shall I discuss sena's inconsistencies, I see it aligning and
deviating with the cause, for its political survival, but is it a
particular property? We dont need elaborations dont we?
Lets see the trouble. Why the OP is still able to show you the floor
with the human and constitutional rights? You need to see deeper.
1) You shall never defend a representative but put your soul for the
'objective' of a struggle/movement. Sena does not generate the
struggle it represents it, Marathi mass by no means is answerable to
sena's adjustments for short-term political goals. We are fighting for
a long-term goal. Arnt we?
Let dixit come with a stand that the mere cause/objective of
preservation attempts is inhuman and illegal? He cannot say that. Why?
'cause he is doing it for years in U.S.A.
So preserving one's way of living (individualistic preservation,
identity problem type A) remains one's right.
How about seeing a mass preservation (against individual's) or
identity problem type B at higher priority and as a serious problem,
which aims at dissolving a social way of living, shall we?
Once we agree on the existence of problem for Marathi way of living in
particular, people are welcome to prove that it is unconstitutional to
struggle to resist it.
Dixit cannot discuss the correctness of any methods to resist rape on
Marathi mass, be it violent or non-violent.
Does he think he is representing a moderate flow among Marathi mass,
whats called "nemast"?
Dont fool your self by this line of attack on sena, which does not say
a word about the "correctness of goals" and keeps on raising
failures/wrongness of "methods".
Is he seeing a picture, as sena, mass-hypnotized Marathi society and
now we are coming out of the dream? no baby boy, its reverse isnt it.
If there is anyone who's consistent in its vision, then its Marathi
mass. It wants to preserve a way of living and not only that (as thats
real sign of weakness); it has guts to proliferate itself breaking all
antiforces. It has done it in past against mughals.
We have anger and political parties will be formed/repaired to suit
the mass mind. Politics is to ensure that Marathi interest is
preserved. Our chief minister has too felt the need for the
preservation of rights of Marathi mass against influx.
So dixit or anyone who is not accommodating the existence of a rape
shall not come up with Ten Commandments for the movement. You are not
part of the team. Why are you discussing correctness of methods when
you do not agree the goal? Remain immigrant. Your oppositions will be
broken at their heart.
Note how cleverly he regulates directions of discussions away from
objectives and keeps the focus on sena's action/methods and slowly
putting forward a conclusion as how the wrong deeds, are infact,
wrongness of the movement. So since sena is a mad dog, whoever stands
for the rights is a mad dog. Is this correlation necessary? Why the
preservation attempts are seen as sena's political goals "only"? What
if dalit panther, rpi, rss/bjp, nationalists, congress, and say all
socialist form a political team (as they did in sanyukta maharashtra
movement)? its possible. The division at political level means
division at social level. Once social unity on the 100% Marathi state
takes place (through mother's conditioning), that when, everyone
believes, we are here to rule/dominate our way of living and fight the
forced change, what is impossible? Political status shall never
demoralize us. If it is, then we are out of focus. Lets focus on
objectives rather the rep. rep isnt the movement. Mass is.
I dare to say that the Indian republic arrangement (states) is to
allow mass culture (sub Indian) preservations, protecting the
minorities residing in state.
So both the things are allowed by Indian constitution, individual
immigrant's efforts to preserve his way of living and a state's
attempt to proliferate its sub Indian culture.
Now our confusions are when we hesitate to take stand on mass culture
preservation (idea), why would we do it? The reason I see is, we do
not believe, a Marathi way of living IS a superior way of living.
That belief is wrong.
That's why we lack the intensity in our efforts in resisting forced
changes, (as we in our subconscious mind want a change!). Dixit feels
that if all immigrants leave mumbai and say Maharashtra, wealth
generation will come to a halt (if he is right isnt it a danger
forecast, a warning bell? dissolve or die).
I dream that situations can be changed to suit interests of Marathi
mass "first" than any immigrant. This objective isee in a 100% Marathi
state achieved by 100% Marathi education. immigrants to state mah.
will be dissolved in marathi way of living. marathi society had telgu
brothers who were standing for rights of maharshtra. we always refer
to musalmaan marathi mass in shivaji's time as the one who supported
struggle for local/marathi way of living. ambani happens to be a
sindhi but he feels and breaths gujrathi culture. he is dissolved. we
have british immigrants and others who were dissolved in indian way of
living. we all have indians who dissolve in american way of living (i
am not disrespecting remaining/some indians who struggle to preserve
their way of living and i wish strength to their struggle)same way
immigrants will earn in maharashtra but they wont remain isolated from
marathi way of living as they are now. this dissolving power comes
from mainland culture's superior beliefs in their way of living. thats
what we are loosing. the reason is low/submissive (to antiforce)
instincts developed due to weak conditioning.
Youth is my company, isn't it?
Dhananjay
Balwant Dixit
true. Since my high school days I have protested against "violence" or
violent acts of individuals as well as by groups. No internet was
available so my protests were just local. When Sikhs undertook violent
acts for Khalistan I was against it and said so in public. I was against
the "emergency" actions of Indira Gandhi. In late forties when British
authorities and its Indian subordinates undertook some very violent
actions against peaceful politicians I was against it. I was against
what Nathuram Godse did and had written about it. I thought the violent
actions taken by DMK in Tamilnadu were wrong. I do not approve the
tactics of LTTE, Hamas, Israeli military, Bin Laden, Musharaff and his
agents or Sadam Hussain. I am also not in favor of the some of the
actions taken by USA in Iraq, in Vietnam and other places. But I fully
supported the actions of USA against Taliban and El Quida. I did not
support what the Congress did in Delhi against Sikhs. So I can go on. At
present I am writing about Shiv Sena because their acts are so frequent
and ridiculous. Well. I could go on but I am just ready to leave for
the airport......BND
naniwadekar
"Balwant Dixit" <bdi...@pitt.edu> wrote -
>
> ... what the Congress did in Delhi against Sikhs. So I can go on. At
> present I am writing about Shiv Sena because their acts are so frequent
>
I don't mean to say that you support violence by others. But
for someone who is always starting threads deploring violence,
how many threads have you *started* when (pseudo-)seculars
or muslims were the perpetrators? I just checked your posts on
soc.culture.indian for Dec 2001 when Indian parliament was
attacked. I could only find threads mentioning Bajrang Dal
and parivar. ISI network is deep in India. Thousands and lakhs
of Indian muslims are actively or morally colluding with them.
They have threatened to blow up Taj Mahal, Cricket Captain
Ganguly IIRC, Film Producers who don't pay them money
and others on their list. How come you never expose their
activities on SCIM ? Our central and state govt-s have found
the muslim problem far more challenging than Shiv Sena's
lawless activities. Dalits travel without ticket when they travel
in big groups to attend functions (like their annual Dussehra
rally in Nagpur). They had treated UP like their fief during
Mayawati's regime. Before that Mulayam Singh Yadav had
made it a part of his poll-plank that cheating/copying in
exams by college students will NOT be treated as crime.
The shadowy nature of Aligarh Muslim Univ is very
well-known. Can you cite your forthright condemnation
of these activities without mentioning Bajrang Dal or Sena
in the next breath? You have been posting for more than
3 years now against Sena, Sena, Sena, and Sena.
You even refuse to accept that Sena has deep roots among
disgruntled Marathi populace, particularly youth.
>
> But I fully supported the actions of USA against Taliban
> and El Quida.
>
USA was happy supplying arms to Taliban when it suited them.
Now they happily ignore UN's statements. There is some
similarity between America and Thackeray. Both possess
strength and use it even when recourse to law would be preferable.
Both are selfish. Both are unscrupulous. Both do lot of good
things and have been agents for welcome changes.
In principle, any Indian should be welcome anywhere in India.
The problem arises when the principle is abused. People
in UP and Bihar breed like pigs. They can't keep law and
order in their own state. They can't create wealth locally.
This forces other states, esp. prosperous regions
like Mumbai-Pune, to absorb their droves. The problem
has grown to an extent that local outrage against it was inevitable.
Sena's action in beating up Railway officials is not justifiable
but the reasons why they could garner support against the Railway
should be understood. Several posters have stressed this point.
The vandalism by Sena after Anand Dighe's death was
unjustified. The law should deal severely with such mindless
violence. But the violence directed at Railway officials needs
to be examined carefully and with sympathy for violent youth.
- dn
Abhay Patil
> how many threads have you *started* when (pseudo-)seculars
> or muslims were the perpetrators? I just checked your posts on
> soc.culture.indian for Dec 2001 when Indian parliament was
> attacked. I could only find threads mentioning Bajrang Dal
> and parivar.
I never understand why intelligent folks ask such inane questions. As
one who could easily be branded as p-secular let me react once again.
There are certain acts that are unequivocally horrible. You don't need
to issue statements to prove that you don't condone those acts. We all
are on one side when it comes to acts such as the attack on the
parliament. (BTW, there were hardly 9 MPS who cared to remember the
martyrs of Decemebr 13. The families are yet to get the help promised
by the government.) I post when I find that some people- who are just
like me- choose to support equally horrendous acts like post Godhra
carnage.
-Abhay
naniwadekar
> to issue statements to prove that you don't condone those acts. We all
> are on one side when it comes to acts such as the attack on the
> parliament.
>
The problem arises when your argument is used as an excuse.
Let me quote what Prof Dixit had written : "Since my high school
days I have protested against "violence" or
violent acts of individuals as well as by groups. No internet was
available so my protests were just local."
I am only holding him to his own statement. For someone
who takes every opportunity to highlight Sena's vandalism in
a most one-sided manner possible because he is a protester
against violence, how is he silent about violence by people
who are not part of Hindutva umbrella? The attack on
parliament, when he had access to internet, is just one example
which I fished out. Muslims have a history
of violence far more deep-rooted and of traitorous nature.
Anybody worried about violence will devote considerable
time to discussing/exposing them. I don't see any fairness
of approach in Prof Dixit's posts. The same jaundiced
approach was predictable in Vijay Tendulkar. I had predicted
that the real cause of his heartburn is Sangh Parivar's recent
'progress'. He proved me correct.
You can get the drift of a person's arguments over time.
Even in your shortish association with the topic on SCIM,
you found an occasion to highlight some good which Sena
did. Show me any example where Prof Dixit has accepted
that some violent acts by Sena need to be studied carefully.
> I post when I find that some people- who are just
> like me- choose to support equally horrendous acts like
> post Godhra carnage.
>
We differ on this. Just as I am willing to excuse lot of Dalit
excesses because they are a wronged party who continue
to be victims of Hindu society's shameful attitude to them
even today, I am willing to excuse violent Hindu warnings
to muslims because Hindus/India are a wronged party at
the hands of Muslims. There is strength in numbers. People
who contribute to numbers contribute to strength, albeit
passively. For this, they may also get punished when their
numbers are targetted. When within a quarrel between two
peoples, one side is trying to play by rules and losing rather
too often, it is time to reconsider the strategy.
- dn
Pradeep
> "naniwadekar" <nani3...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<bru3p6$
> > how many threads have you *started* when (pseudo-)seculars
> > or muslims were the perpetrators? I just checked your posts on
> > soc.culture.indian for Dec 2001 when Indian parliament was
> > attacked. I could only find threads mentioning Bajrang Dal
> > and parivar.
>
> I never understand why intelligent folks ask such inane questions. As
> one who could easily be branded as p-secular let me react once again.
The question Nani asks is simple: if Mr. Dixit asserts that he
condemns violence irrespective of who perpetrated it, why are there no
threads started by him (Mr. Dixit) whenever anyone other than SS was
the offender?
This question was asked of Mr. Dixit. But as his cheerleader, you have
taken it upon yourself to answer it! And as is your wont, you have
dismissed someone's writting with yet another epithet: "inane"!
Moreover you inform us there is no need to issue statements to prove
you don't condone these acts! But you don't see anything wrong when
one person (Mr. Dixit) persistently *issues statements* ONLY when SS
is the one on the erring side. Some argument this!!!!
.....Pradeep
Pradeep
> Your well written post is really inconsequential in relation to what I
> had originally said about the tactics used by Shiv Sena and its
> enough.............BND
Mr. Dixit's response is riddled with a total mix up on the core issue
of why SS went into action against the Railway Board officials last
November. The issue was not the import of UPites and Biharis into
Maharashtra per se. It was the treacherous act of the Railway
officials in devising their conduct of the exams in a way that would
make the Biharis and the UPites easily selectable. That was the issue.
As has been said before on this thread, the ads for these exams never
appeared in Marathi newspapers. (So, sorry sir, no healthy numbers of
Marathi applicants to this exam, as you desired to know). And such
instances happened before. I had posted a link to eSakaal regarding a
similar exam the Railways conducted in Nagpur last year. I also
pointed out on this thread that a few months back, the SS activists
attempted and succeded in thwarting a similar farce of an exam in
Mulund. But the railway authorities took no heed.
Since the core issue is thus misinterpreted by Mr. Dixit, all his
examples (Mumbaikars going into Kokan, the tale of two tabaljis who
landed jobs at Goa Kala Academy etc) are irrelevent. They would prove
relevent only if the circumstances are similar to the Railway /SS
issue. viz. the public authorities concerned gave preferential
treatment to the outsiders at the expense of the interests of the
locals. Mr. Dixit also further cites the example of Kashmiri
separatists in the same breath. Issues there are so different and
complex that the two cases are simply incomparable.
And to top it all, Mr. Dixit questions the willingness of the Marathis
to take up hard labour jobs, further implying that the Biharis and
UPites are ever willing to do so. Agreed, we Marathis are rather laid-
back people, but if anyone is telling me convincingly that the UPites
amd the Biharis are very hard working people with disciplined work
culture, then they would also need to explain why their states are in
such poor shapes. Before anyone points the blame onto their leaders,
they should think twice. The UPites and Biharis who work in large
numbers in the Govt. and semi- govt establishments, not just in their
own states, but all over India, aren't exactly known for their work
ethics (or for that matter, any ethics). Look at Mumbai's BSNL. The
place was infested with the UPites and its operations ran aground. The
CR and WR suburban services rapidly deteriorated during the eightees,
when these people took over. I am not sure how is it in Pune. But I
know Mumbai is in a very poor shape, thanks largly due to these North
Indians. The cabbies are arrogant, drive on Mumbai roads like they
would drive on their GT roads or whatever, and they hardly know
anything about the city. (At VT, when asked to take me to Flora
Fountain, the driver blurted out something like " where the hell is
this place?" When told it is also known as Hutatma Chowk, he grimaced
and rudely told me off!) If there is any semblence of sanity left in
that city, it is on account of the services that are still
Marathi-dominated. The BEST, the fire brigade, the police (yes, the
police.... ask Pandu hawaldar standing right amidst an overflowing
traffic at Dharavi/ Mahim junction, what his work and living
conditions are, before laughing this off!) , the Mathadi kaamgars in
the docks. Compare this to the plight of BSNL, CR and WR Railways, to
some extent the Govt owned banks, and you get a good picture. They
didn't need the guidance of their superb leaders to run these
institutions down; they are quite capable themselves!!
I agree with Maratha when he contends that these people from the North
have no scruples. Unlike the Southies who brought with them culture,
and desire to work hard and succeed, these people would not assimilate
with the city, nor would they contribute anything worthwhile to its
life. They have already ruined the city of Mumbai. Pune and the rest
of Maharashtra are not much behind!
Mr. Dixit's refusal to see through this reality, whiich appears so
obvious to me, is lamentable. I only hope he is in a small minority
amongst educated Maharashtrians.
....Pradeep
bheem
> I don't mean to say that you support violence by others. But
> for someone who is always starting threads deploring violence,
> how many threads have you *started* when (pseudo-)seculars
> or muslims were the perpetrators? I just checked your posts on
> soc.culture.indian for Dec 2001 when Indian parliament was
> attacked. I could only find threads mentioning Bajrang Dal
> and parivar. ISI network is deep in India. Thousands and lakhs
Dear Mr. Nanivdekar,
You don't seem to understand the basic principles of "progressive"
point of view. Being progressive and secular means that you condemn
loudly when Hindus do something bad. But another requirement is that
you should maintain total silence when minorities, Muslims in
particular, do something atrocious.
It's understandable and sometimes even justifiable if Muslims flare up
and do something bad. But it's absolutely unforgivable for Hindus to
do it. They must always treat Muslims like they treat their "slightly
naughty" younger brother. Come what may, Hindus are not allowed to use
violence. Look at M.K.Gandhi, Nehru et al. These great leaders have
set the standards. To question these standards is like plotting to
destroy the secular and progressive framework on which our nation was
built (after slicing away a few chunks from it that is).
Hope your learn your lesson and don't ask these petty questions.
All atrocities are equally bad but some are more equally bad.
Pradeep
> representatives applied for the 2200 positions that were open?
> Certainly persons from Bihar, UP and Rajasthan applied as they have
> every right to do. And they applied in large numbers. One person who
> had worked in Indian Railways some yr. ago said to me that these jobs
> are very demanding. The persons have to stay on the railway tracks for
> several weeks at a time and sometimes several months away from their
> families. Many yr. ago, he said, Marathi persons were not that much
> interested in such jobs. That is just one person's statement. It may
> be true or may not be true.
Hers is an interesting observation in this context.
http://maharashtratimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/371332.cms
...Pradeep
Enigmatic
>
> http://maharashtratimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/371332.cms
>
> ...Pradeep
This article completely expresses my views.
You can not say that the persons from other states should not come to
Maharashtra. You can not use the tactics used by Shiv Sena to kick
them out just because violence is throughout our history or just
because it works...in fact it works against the good personality of
our state.
- Enigmatic
Shahrukh
> Maharashtra.
Why? Especially if they are coming in 1000s !
>You can not use the tactics used by Shiv Sena to kick them out just
because >violence is throughout our history or just because it
works...in fact it works >against the good personality of our state.
The 'tactics' used by Shiv Sena are their tactics. Talk to Shiv Sena.
But if you cannot even discuss it especially in terms of any
alternative
'tactics' at least think it over and offer something.
Violence is throughout history not because people were stupid or
cowards. It exists because of SOUND reasons whcih people like you
cannot appreciate. The Bhagavad Gita might be a good read for you!
Enigmatic
> > You can not say that the persons from other states should not come
> > to Maharashtra.
>
>Why? Especially if they are coming in 1000s !
I was talking in generic sense. Let me make myself clear here...I am
not supporting mass migration here.
>
> >You can not use the tactics used by Shiv Sena to kick them out just
>because >violence is throughout our history or just because it
>works...in fact it works >against the good personality of our state.
>
>The 'tactics' used by Shiv Sena are their tactics. Talk to Shiv Sena.
>But if you cannot even discuss it especially in terms of any
>alternative 'tactics' at least think it over and offer something.
I already talked about the possible steps before going for violence.
Refer to post # 34 in this thread.
>
>Violence is throughout history not because people were stupid or
>cowards. It exists because of SOUND reasons whcih people like you
>cannot appreciate. The Bhagavad Gita might be a good read for you!
I can appreciate the reasons for all the violence throughout the
history which was for a GOOD cause AND which was directed towards the
RIGHT target.
Mee MarAThi
enigm...@yahoo.com (Enigmatic) wrote in message
> I was talking in generic sense. Let me make myself clear here...I am
> not supporting mass migration here.
Thanks, so you understand that mass migration need not be supported.
Further, you also need to understand what is goin on in Maharashtra is
mass migration of non-MaraThi people. Do you understand that? Or do I
have to still dissect the proposition and lead you towards proof?
Now we can discuss the intensity of the problem. The severity of
medicine would depend upon the intensity of the disease, and what
therapies to follow, whether to take multi-pronged approach and such
issues can be decided.
>
> I already talked about the possible steps before going for violence.
> Refer to post # 34 in this thread.
>
> >
I read post 34 again, and came up with the following:
"At this point, danDa remains as the only option WHICH SHOULD BE
DIRECTED TOWARDS THE CAUSE OF THE SITUATION, that is the system and
not those applicants who have full right to apply for the job." (Post
34, Enigmatic)
"Show them that MaraThi maNus is not afraid of the competition but
there should be equal opportunity system to prove our mettle otherwise
we will have to forcibly change the system (not the competitors)"
(Post 34, Enigmatic)
Is it a joke or a mockery? What is the system? How do we change it?
Where is the equal opportunity? How do we show that we are not afraid
of competition? How do we use danDA against an unjust system to change
it?
In response, I again quote the facts:
"That those Bihari applicants had double opportunities to appear for
the exam both in Bihar and Mumbai (because exams were not national
level, and ads appeared only in English and Hindi dailies, not a
single Marathi paper - a point raised often) is definitely not the
equal opportunity for Marathi people that you speak of. Further, as
rightly observed by Raj Thakare, it normally happens that those
applicants come for the exam in Mumbai and don't return at all. Who
looks after that?" (Post 39, Mee MarAThi)
"Only this agitation led to postponement of the exams by Nitish Kumar.
(He didn't do so even after the real violence in Bihar and Assam.)
Thus this ransacking of railway office did achieve its purpose in the
short-term context. What else could have achieved the same result?
Negotiations?" (Post 39, Mee MarAThi)
(I dislike to quote earlier posts, sorry for that, but it seems that
this is called coming up with precise points!)
That many exams on national level are allowed to be taken in Hindi is
equal opportunity for whom? Recently, it was declared that NDA exams
can be taken in Hindi as well. There were great protests from southern
states. (Refer to The Hindu, 24-12-2003) Because this would further
deteriorate the demographic balance in the forces. It is to alleviate
such fears that many exams (including UPSC civil services exam) are
now offered in all official languages. This approach basically is not
correct. But then how do we overcome the natural advantage of
Hindi-speaking people (and Marathi people also, as they use the same
Devnagari script) over non-Hindi people? In fact, people resent the
fact that the demographic imbalance is being created is in itself a
proof of people's unwillingness to accept the concept of Indian nation
as forcefully pushed onto them. But that's a different matter, and we
need solutions accepting the sovereign and integral Indian nationhood.
And that is not possible without showing respect towards peoples'
regional and linguistic aspirations, which are perfectly valid and
legitimate, (of course unless we want to accept the idea of homgeneous
sterotypical culture (perhaps global, read American?)!!)
> I can appreciate the reasons for all the violence throughout the
> history which was for a GOOD cause AND which was directed towards the
> RIGHT target.
What is good cause and right target? Anybody who is very much master
at language, logic, philosophy and semantics can twist the truth to
justify the unjust. Even Krishna had to direct Arjun to kill unarmed,
noble, just Karna, and Ghatotkacha had to be sacrificed lest Arjun
would be killed. DroNacharya had to be wronged and Duryodhan had to be
deceived! If this all relates to mythology, even Napolean was cruelly
but silently killed, British officers who represented the Empire were
killed, freedom fighters were killed. If you try to analyse everything
on micro-level rather than macro-level, then adopt the same approach
for historical events as well, and you will see the anguish and agony
of the otherwise faceless individual. In 1921 when Mahatmaji abandoned
his agitation following Chaurichura incident, was he not aware that
thousands who had sacrificed home, education, jobs, leading to
irreversible change in course of life - just because of faith in his
words, without understanding anything of his philosophy - were
betrayed? But is it not such fundamentally inexplicable processes that
created the world as we see and love and adore it today?
Then what about the violence on a subtle, unnoticed level of mind and
psyche? Why talk only about physical violence? Is the act by each
individual Bihari in question not amounting to rape and silent killing
of Marathi culture? Isn't the fabric of Marathi society as it is
existing and changing in a natural flow being distorted forcefully and
distorted? How do we account for that? Is not each such individual
responsible for it?
No doubt, generalisations are bad. "ALL generalisations are bad! But
as I stated earlier, in the events that shape history and geography,
those who are part of or wish to be part of this act cannot afford to
think on micro-level. Only those who are safely watching those events
from the sidelines can afford to do such post-event analysis and offer
disrespectful comments!
Even Churchil had made some extremely disobedient remarks about Indian
freedom struggle and Gandhiji. He was a great man. So it's natural
that it takes time for small minds like us to judge events from a
proper perspective.
:- MarAThA,
A proud supporter of Marathi cause.
"Between ignorance and apathy, what is worse? Who knows? Who cares?"
Enigmatic
>
> I read post 34 again, and came up with the following:
> "At this point, danDa remains as the only option WHICH SHOULD BE
> DIRECTED TOWARDS THE CAUSE OF THE SITUATION, that is the system and
> not those applicants who have full right to apply for the job." (Post
> 34, Enigmatic)
> "Show them that MaraThi maNus is not afraid of the competition but
> there should be equal opportunity system to prove our mettle otherwise
> we will have to forcibly change the system (not the competitors)"
> (Post 34, Enigmatic)
>
> Is it a joke or a mockery? What is the system? How do we change it?
> Where is the equal opportunity? How do we show that we are not afraid
> of competition? How do we use danDA against an unjust system to change
> it?
NO, It was a very serious statement. Why anybody should be puzzled by
the definition of the system (governing body). I don't know why it's
so difficult to point out the culprit.
> In response, I again quote the facts:
> "That those Bihari applicants had double opportunities to appear for
> the exam both in Bihar and Mumbai (because exams were not national
> level, and ads appeared only in English and Hindi dailies, not a
> single Marathi paper - a point raised often) is definitely not the
> equal opportunity for Marathi people that you speak of.
Please don't twist my words per your convenience. I said if equal
opportunity (healthy compitition) is not being provided to Marathi
youth, then change the system (governing body) BUT you want to target
each individual coming to Maharashtra and beat him to death.
> Thus this ransacking of railway office did achieve its purpose in the
> short-term context. What else could have achieved the same result?
> Negotiations?" (Post 39, Mee MarAThi)
> (I dislike to quote earlier posts, sorry for that, but it seems that
> this is called coming up with precise points!)
Great !!! Then solve every other matter with your short sighted
solutions.
> > I can appreciate the reasons for all the violence throughout the
> > history which was for a GOOD cause AND which was directed towards the
> > RIGHT target.
>
> What is good cause and right target? Anybody who is very much master
> at language, logic, philosophy and semantics can twist the truth to
> justify the unjust.
Very true. As you are justifying the beating of the non-Maharashtrians
by Shiv Sainiks as a just action.
Also refer to post # 26 by Abhay Patil for one of the ways to resolve
such issues.
> Even Krishna had to direct Arjun to kill unarmed,
> noble, just Karna, and Ghatotkacha had to be sacrificed lest Arjun
> would be killed. DroNacharya had to be wronged and Duryodhan had to be
> deceived! If this all relates to mythology, even Napolean was cruelly
> but silently killed, British officers who represented the Empire were
> killed, freedom fighters were killed.
Karna, Dronacharya, Duryodhan, the British officers who exploited
India.....though these persons you quoted were noble, intellectual and
what not BUT all of them were the part of a BAD SYSTEM so needed to be
punished. Are you comparing the non-Maharashtrians who come to
Maharashtra looking for job with all these BAD guys? You should
consider Nitish Kumar, the officers who are promoting nepotism as BAD
guys.
> If you try to analyse everything
> on micro-level rather than macro-level, then adopt the same approach
> for historical events as well, and you will see the anguish and agony
> of the otherwise faceless individual. In 1921 when Mahatmaji abandoned
> his agitation following Chaurichura incident, was he not aware that
> thousands who had sacrificed home, education, jobs, leading to
> irreversible change in course of life - just because of faith in his
> words, without understanding anything of his philosophy - were
> betrayed?
What's the corelation with this thread? I am not a supporter of this
decision of Gandhiji but can you see that, without ANY violent
activities, this non cooperation movement was so effective that
British officers were so much relieved after Gandhiji called it back?
> But is it not such fundamentally inexplicable processes that
> created the world as we see and love and adore it today?
> Then what about the violence on a subtle, unnoticed level of mind and
> psyche? Why talk only about physical violence? Is the act by each
> individual Bihari in question not amounting to rape and silent killing
> of Marathi culture? Isn't the fabric of Marathi society as it is
> existing and changing in a natural flow being distorted forcefully and
> distorted? How do we account for that? Is not each such individual
> responsible for it?
What's the solution you would suggest? Target such individuals and
beat them to death? You got to be strong enough for not be shadowed by
other cultures. No one is forcing Maharashtrian women to go for
'Karava Chaut' instead of 'Vat Savitri' (just a figurative example),
are they?
One reason I can think of is, Marathi itself is not generating
revenue. Leadership must come up with something to enlighten the
Marathi spirit by arranging good Marathi play competitions at
different levels, support for Marathi cinemas, writers. This can be a
separate thread though.
> No doubt, generalisations are bad. "ALL generalisations are bad! But
> as I stated earlier, in the events that shape history and geography,
> those who are part of or wish to be part of this act cannot afford to
> think on micro-level. Only those who are safely watching those events
> from the sidelines can afford to do such post-event analysis and offer
> disrespectful comments!
The point is, there are ways other than violence which can be found if
given a thought at MICRO level of the situation. And this is possible
only if one wants to solve the issue on a long term basis.
>
> :- MarAThA,
> A proud supporter of Marathi cause.
So are we, but don't just be a BLIND supporter.
Mee MarAThi
> NO, It was a very serious statement. Why anybody should be puzzled by
> the definition of the system (governing body). I don't know why it's
> so difficult to point out the culprit.
And wait for five years till we get a chance to change the
government? No, please don't tell me to fight for the right to recall,
the one for which JP struggled. This way you can ask me to wait and
change the constitution!
And I don't understand why you are so apprehensive to accept that
people themselves are also part of the system. Government just
represents people. If governments is Bihar and UP have proved useless,
it's because of the people there who elected them. People get as good
or bad a government as they deserve, as rightly observed by Allen
Hume! By including only government and officers in the system, you are
accusing them of too much power, or belittling the meaning of system!
> youth, then change the system (governing body) BUT you want to target
> each individual coming to Maharashtra and beat him to death.
>
It seems through reading my earlier single post, you got an impression
of mine to be supporter of violence and a supporter of only violent
means to somehow drive away non-Marathi's from Maharashtra. A gross
misinterpretetion!
> > short-term context. What else could have achieved the same result?
> > Negotiations?" (Post 39, Mee MarAThi)
> Great !!! Then solve every other matter with your short sighted
> solutions.
My point was how else was it possible to cancel those exams and
the unjust selection procedure that would have followed. Do you think
we should have toppled the government? (peacefully!?)
I've never stated that to preserve Marathi culture in Maharashtra
we have to give all non-Maharashtrians a run for their lives.
> what not BUT all of them were the part of a BAD SYSTEM so needed to be
> punished. Are you comparing the non-Maharashtrians who come to
> Maharashtra looking for job with all these BAD guys? You should
> consider Nitish Kumar, the officers who are promoting nepotism as BAD
> guys.
>
> What's the corelation with this thread? I am not a supporter of this
The reference is given to just show what is expressed through the
first sentence below:
> > But is it not such fundamentally inexplicable processes that
> > created the world as we see and love and adore it today?
> > Then what about the violence on a subtle, unnoticed level of mind and
> > psyche? Why talk only about physical violence? Is the act by each
> > individual Bihari in question not amounting to rape and silent killing
> > of Marathi culture? Isn't the fabric of Marathi society as it is
> > existing and changing in a natural flow being distorted forcefully and
> > distorted? How do we account for that? Is not each such individual
> > responsible for it?
>
> What's the solution you would suggest? Target such individuals and
> beat them to death? You got to be strong enough for not be shadowed by
> other cultures. No one is forcing Maharashtrian women to go for
> 'Karava Chaut' instead of 'Vat Savitri' (just a figurative example),
> are they?
> Marathi spirit by arranging good Marathi play competitions at
> different levels, support for Marathi cinemas, writers. This can be a
> separate thread though.
>
Do you mean by encouraging only Marathi cinema and writers and
drama and art, we preserve our culture? I'm sure you don't mean it!
It's just a childish notion.
Further, it's very preposterous to state that any culture should
be strong enough to withstand attacks from others. Well, in essence
it's true. But that doesn't mean resistance is not needed. Only
because of such attitude (which ironically ill-suits conservative
Indian mind!), we have lost many of our cultural gems and legacies,
only to relearn them from the West after they 'discovered' them! (Here
I do not mean nonsense like all sciences were detailed in vedas and
aeroplane and nuclear bomb are Indian and blah blah... I am not
advocate of such 'India had it all' speak.) But this is slightly out
of context.
>
> > No doubt, generalisations are bad. "ALL generalisations are bad! But
> > as I stated earlier, in the events that shape history and geography,
> > those who are part of or wish to be part of this act cannot afford to
> > think on micro-level. Only those who are safely watching those events
>
> The point is, there are ways other than violence which can be found if
> given a thought at MICRO level of the situation. And this is possible
> only if one wants to solve the issue on a long term basis.
>
For the real problem I perceive, please go through my post no. 30.
For solutions (none of them violent, and all within the constitutional
framework!), please go through the link I have provided therein, as
well as post 38 by Pradeep and post 50 by Dhananjay.
:- MarAThA,
A proud supporter of Marathi cause.
(Whether you are one, please go though the posts I suggested, and
decide!)
Think and let think!
Enigmatic
do not agree with them, that's fine. I don't want to chew this matter
forever.
- I do not support mass migration.
- By changing governing body, I meant the officers in Railways
supporting the nepotism and not the government (Of course you have a
right to recall and correct the mistake you did in voting process).
- The tactic of danDA can be applied for such corrupt officers (if
other better ways to bring the change fail) BUT I would not support
violence directed towards wrong target (the job applicants) just
because somebody did not publish job postings in Marathi.
- If the beating of non-Maharashtrians has worked this time, that does
not mean that we should support this way of achieving it. I am
thinking about the solutions which would be effective in long run
here.
I AGAIN went through the postings you suggested.
-----------------------------------------------------------
MeeMaraThi (post #30)
-----------------------------------------------------------
- My solution lies in the use of Marathi everywhere in Maharashtra,
and opposition to Hindi, rather total reluctance to use of Hindi.
@@ Do you think that just by deciding to speak/use Marathi, it will be
carried out? RETHINK about my childish notion I suggested in my
previous post. It is of course one of the ways of doing it but
certainly not as vague as you have suggested here. How do you think a
language (or Marathi, to be specific) is flourished? by making a law
to speak Marathi throughout the state. @@
- Instead of identifying ourselves with the North Indians, we should
group ourselves with South Indians, who have proven record of social
and economic progress and justice.
@@ Bravo !!! What a concrete solution. @@
------------------------------------------------------------
Dhananjay (post #50)
------------------------------------------------------------
Dont fool your self by this line of attack on sena, which does not say
a word about the "correctness of goals" and keeps on raising
failures/wrongness of "methods".
@@ I tend to honour the methods rather than the correctness of goals.
Of course course correctness of goals is important. @@
Immigrants to state of Maharashtra should be dissolved in marathi way
of living.
@@ I agree @@
-------------------------------------------------------------
- Enigmatic
Mee MarAThi
enigm...@yahoo.com (Enigmatic) wrote in message
> do not agree with them, that's fine. I don't want to chew this matter
> forever.
Should this make me relent from posting? :-) No, as long as I find
that you too are genuinely interested in the well-being of Marathi
people!
>
> - I do not support mass migration.
That's but natural.
> - If the beating of non-Maharashtrians has worked this time, that does
> not mean that we should support this way of achieving it. I am
Perfectly agreed. I only stated that it worked THIS time! I won't
support it as a strategy to be adopted always. In today's world, even
satyagraha is a mere political pressure tool, and it too can lose its
charm, so no better fate for primitive methods like violence!
> thinking about the solutions which would be effective in long run
> here.
> I AGAIN went through the postings you suggested.
I didn't mean to say that you didn't read my earlier posts. But I
must apologize, the link I provided in post 30 is not the exact one
which I intended. If you still wish, you can please go through the
following; maybe you will find some ground where we concur:
1. http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=c48928b8.0306100511.74fa4741%40posting.google.com&rnum=2
2. http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=c48928b8.0306162217.7fc8208c%40posting.google.com&rnum=3
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> MeeMaraThi (post #30)
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> - My solution lies in the use of Marathi everywhere in Maharashtra,
> and opposition to Hindi, rather total reluctance to use of Hindi.
>
> @@ Do you think that just by deciding to speak/use Marathi, it will be
> carried out? RETHINK about my childish notion I suggested in my
> language (or Marathi, to be specific) is flourished? by making a law
> to speak Marathi throughout the state. @@
I don't expect the government to take initiative, nor to make any
law. The referred posts must have made it clear. Why insist on use of
Marathi is detailed in the same posts.
>
> - Instead of identifying ourselves with the North Indians, we should
> group ourselves with South Indians, who have proven record of social
> and economic progress and justice.
>
> @@ Bravo !!! What a concrete solution. @@
Well, you must be aware of the proposed economic forum of southern
states, initiative taken by Chandrababu Naidu, with AP, Karnataka,
TamilNadu supposedly already included in it. You must also be knowing
the controversy about a year back regarding the share given by
planning commission to undeveloped states, making injustice to the
developed states, as if a reward for non-performance of those
undeveloped states (Bihar, U.P.) on the social front (sex ratio,
illiteracy, health facilities, primary education), which could be well
interpreted by these states to continue with the sorry state of
affairs so that their share in the central grant does not decline,
despite their own dismal contribution to it. Maharashtra too has been
a silent victim of this policy of the centre for decades. It was only
after Chandrababu, Jayalalitha (and recently Manohar Parrikar)spoke of
it that the matter came on block. States with good sociao-economic
performance, and major contribution to central revenue are punished
for their progress, lest there would be 'regional imbalance'. But same
measures cannot be applied to Haryana or Delhi!
I don't claim that Southerners are just like us, but they also
have similar grievances (cultural, regional, linguistic, financial),
and if we don't join with them, we are bound to lose.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Dhananjay (post #50)
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Dont fool your self by this line of attack on sena, which does not say
> a word about the "correctness of goals" and keeps on raising
> failures/wrongness of "methods".
>
> @@ I tend to honour the methods rather than the correctness of goals.
> Of course course correctness of goals is important. @@
An all-time hot issue! but I normally agree with your view, at
least on personal level. Hence my own practices and measures for
preserving Marathi culture are devoid of any kind of aggressiveness.
Again, the referred posts speak this!
>
> Immigrants to state of Maharashtra should be dissolved in marathi way
> of living.
> @@ I agree @@
I would just add some words. Those who intend to make Maharashtra
their home for a reasonable period (say more than 5 years?) should
sincerely try to imbibe in their lives Marathi culture. Learning and
using Marathi, knowing and respecting Marathi history and Marathi
heroes, participating in at least public festivals, considering
Maharashtra to be their karmabhoomee, and being grateful towards it,
not offending the feelings of the Marathi people by flouting their own
non-Marathi origins ("hath pair toD denge!" - Abu Azmi), considering
their Marathi fellows to be closer than some keen living thousands of
miles apart, and hence preferring them for say employment etc. etc.,
in essence: identifying themselves with Maharashtra more.
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
> - Enigmatic
:- MarATHA,
A proud supporter of MarAThI cause.
"Don't take life too seriously. After all, you are not going to come
out of alive!"
Amey Samant
ye i completely agree ....
violence is not the way out.
these politicians are reallly gooood at hypnotising people ... i must
say
they make you think in the direction they want
i as an indian is reallly sick of discrimination though it may favour
me or it may not ........
cmon grow up
previously it was just between hindu- non-hindu (esp muslims) now its
growin to even smaller granularity like maharashtrians - non-MH
i dont know what do they achieve, but i'm sure the normal citizen
looooses a great deal ... we'd never develope ourselves this way.
if this continues i'm worried mumbai will sooner or later witness the
Gujrat incident :(
i see this as a corruption issue (i'm sure if you think with a broader
mind, you'll see the same) ... does anybody have a prooof that all
candidates were non-maharashtrian or any maharashtrian was denied to
appear ?
and when it comes to migration ......i beilieve every indian has a
right to go to any state.... its normal that people moving from
underdeveloped regions to developed regions ...its (state)govt.'s duty
to identify such things if they go beyond a limit and take measures
such as employment generation & stuff.
the people are innocent citizens .....
i reallly think that if they are capable enough, they should be given
equal opportunities. after alll its the nature's law ... 'SURVIVAL OF
THE FITTEST' so we should concentrate on developing things not
destroying things.
even shivaji maharaj did not discriminate between hindu-muslims ....
some of the people in their darabar were muslims too....
this hatredness is completely BASELESS
cheers
amey
enigm...@yahoo.com (Enigmatic) wrote in message news:<3cf7d18d.03122...@posting.google.com>...