Same-Clan Marriage Prohibition
hawj...@aol.com
Deficiency In Reasoning Capibility
Hmong have a very askew way of looking at things. Hmong's recent
migration from cultural isolation from the highest plateaus of northern
and central Laos has a lot to do with our extremely provincial view on
most matters.
Hmong's broad prohibition on same-clan marriages is a most relevant
example of our tie to primitivism and our inability to reach for
progressive ideals and beliefs. This social taboo is an archiac belief
which has become obsolete; it has a quasi-biological-but-erroneous
rationale to it. If Hmong parents and elders are asked as to why
same-clan marriages within the culture are not sanctioned (the more
accurate description is that they're ostracized), their quick and simple
answer is that that has been the case since time in memorial, and so
there is no reason why it needs to change. Prodded further and
inevitably they will say that the "real" reason same-clan marriages are
not sanctioned is because of the fear of in-breeding!
Apparently in-breeding is not a totally abstraction which only human
beings are conscious of (but, as this case shows, some human beings are
conscious of in-breeding erroneously). Most social animals, through
millions of years of evolution by trial-and-error do observe a
natural/genetic "law" prohibiting closely-related individuals from
forming mating partners. In the natural world only a large and diversed
gene pool would ensure mutation viability. A species with limited
genetic pool, for example, is almost always headed for extinction.
Obviously my argument here has very little, if anything at all, to do
with the possibility of Hmong becoming extinct; and even if that should
come to pass in some future time, I wouldn't venture to guess at this
point as to what might have been its eventual contributing factors.
Now, the interesting thing about Hmong's same-clan marriage prohibition,
e.g. the fear of in-breeding/incest, is that it is based almost entirely
on a social fear rather then a biological rationale! Again, in the
natural world in-breeding occurs only when two genetically-related
individuals get together and produce an offspring. Hmong parents and
elders have yet to produce any logical, much less scientific, reasoning
as to why two Lauj families from different corners of the world could be
so closely genetically-related as to even having the said prohibition
remotely validated. I'm not talking about two families which have been
separated from each other for an extended period of time but can still
directly trace their lineage to the same grandparents. I'm talking about
two totally unrelated Lauj families, who've never even met, much less
liked or wanted to know each other. Furthermore, the fear of in-breeding
(biological context) or incest (social context) applies to the so-called
blood-line from the father's side only!
Subsequently, the bizzare twist to Hmong's belief is that at the same
time that they are prohibiting ostracizing marriages with strangers who
happen to share the same last name, they are actively and unabashedly
encouraging closely related individuals -- e.g. the offspring of
respective brothers and sisters sharing the same biological parents and
thus are closely genetically related but who don't have the same last
name -- to marry each other! In Hmong's primitive way of rationalization
Hawj Lauj marrying his father's brother's daughter (let's call her "X")
is unimaginable BUT his marrying his father's sister's daughter (let's
call her "Y") is an ideal marriage! Any high school student who's taken
an elementary course in genetics knows "X" and "Y" as stated here share
the same amount of genetical information with respect to Hawj Lauj! The
Question is, why is the one marriage prohibited and considered
incest/in-breeding while the other considered ideal and promoted?
Anyone, if they've not already known that fact, can go and ask their
parents today; far from being a taboo, marrying one's aunt's daughter,
Hmong will say, is most preferred, because, among other reasons, "cov
cuas yog nug muag kia ntag, es ua li cas los thiaj qhuab qhia tau tej me
nyuad!"
Hmong's patriarchally-based social system of beliefs and practices --
which takes nothing from the mother's genetic "line" into consideration
-- is more then obsolete; it is also irrelevant. Arguments to the
contrary are based on little more than futile admonishment (e.g., "if
you're a Hmong then don't do it," or, "do it and you're bannished from
the Hmong community forever," etc., etc.) and other emotional and
uncogent argumentum ad hominems. The author, for example, has received
not a few correspondences saying, "Oh, the reason you're saying such a
horrible thing is because you're 'in love' with another Lauj, that's why!
You should be ashamed of yourself. Your parents, too, should be ashamed
of themselves for having raised such a stupid person as you," and some
other such personal attacks and non-sense. In my view, such a provincial
cultural belief as Hmong's broad prohibition on same-clan marriages are
more than meaningless; they are irrational and potentially dangerous
(only because of its other accompanying beliefs and practices). As such
they should be relegated to a time and a place long ago and far away.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
mm...@andrew.cmu.edu
In article <8755037...@dejanews.com>,
I am appauled to even read what you have just written.. It is individuals
like yourself that slowly erode a once vibrant culture... Clanship, goes
far beyond the scope of your narrow minded concept of marriage...
Clanship is a a foundation in which holds Hmong people together.. I
believe that it is abnormal to marry within the same clan... You seem to
be under the impression that your way of thinking is the "normal" view
point, an ideal shared by the majority...
You need to get a reality check.. the fact are as follow... You are an
irrational individual, whose radical ideas.. do not conform with the
majority...If you choose to live by in the community, play by the
rules...
If you get ostacize, than, boy.. you derserve it...
I CAN NOT BELIEVE, THERE ARE INDIVIDUALS OUT THERE THAT WOULD CONSIDER
MARRYING SOMEONE OF THE SAME LAST NAME... IT IS NOT LIKE MEN AND WOMEN
ARE SO LIMITED...THEY ARE NOT....SO MR.. DO NOT MAKE AN _SS OF YOUR SELF,
AND CLAIM SUCH BLESPHEMY...CLANSHIP GOES DEEPER THAN WHAT YOU ARE
PROTESTING... IF IT DOESN NOT BREAK DO NOT FIX IT...
PEACE OUT MY IGNORANT AND FOOLISH FRIEND.....
Just Me
In article <8755839...@dejanews.com>, mm...@andrew.cmu.edu says:
>
>In article <8755037...@dejanews.com>,
> hawj...@aol.com wrote:
All the funny stuff sniped!!
>
>If you get ostacize, than, boy.. you derserve it...
>
>
>I CAN NOT BELIEVE, THERE ARE INDIVIDUALS OUT THERE THAT WOULD CONSIDER
>MARRYING SOMEONE OF THE SAME LAST NAME... IT IS NOT LIKE MEN AND WOMEN
>ARE SO LIMITED...THEY ARE NOT....SO MR.. DO NOT MAKE AN _SS OF YOUR SELF,
>AND CLAIM SUCH BLESPHEMY...CLANSHIP GOES DEEPER THAN WHAT YOU ARE
>PROTESTING... IF IT DOESN NOT BREAK DO NOT FIX IT...
DAMN YOU GET THE QOUTE RIGHT, "IF IT ISN'T BROKEN, DON'T FIX IT" WHY NOT
JUST WRITE ASS INSTEAD OF _SS.
JUST MY OPINION HEHEHEHE
Student at Cal Poly
hawj...@aol.com wrote:t
hey..
i just found out that you are not very reasonable in writing your
last letter concerning marryin ones own siblings..
fisrt of all, you cannot say "lets take two unrelated lauj families"...
this is bullshit....all lauj are relaated..all fangs are relaled..all
vangs are related....this is the hmong belief..this is their way,,,
anyone who donesnt' believe this is not a hmong..
therefore, maybe you're trying desperately to be a hmong..but your sense
of identity is not even close to hmong brother...so make srue you check
your head for any illness before you fuck your sister...
Student at Cal Poly
hawj...@aol.com wrote:
>
hi...hmm...fisrt of all, i have ask you to write this in hmong..then
you will see how ridiculous you sound....western terminology and ideas
can't be used to explain how hmong works...if you dont' believe me..
then like isay..i suggest you write your comments over again in hmong
and read it..it willnot make sense in hmong..
i hope you're not married or in love with a felow clam member
fellow hmong..
Student at Cal Poly
hawj...@aol.com wrote:
>
>
hey i was just reading this..and again i wanted to make a few comments..
hmong do knwo how to reason..and their reasons do base on their belief..
the most impoartant belief regarding hmong is that anyone who has the
same last name belongs to the same clan...and anyone woman who is
married to the outside clans no long belong tot he same clan..well it a
hmong believes in this belief...taking this into their heads..they came
up wth the conclusion that you can't married your own clan memmber...but
can still marry anyone outside.and this incude an aunts' daughter..
therefore, you cnn't use "same blood" to argue...same blood has nothing
to do with it...
yh
Anonymous
hawj...@aol.com wrote:
>
>
> Deficiency In Reasoning Capibility
>
>Hmong have a very askew way of looking at things. Hmong's recent
>migration from cultural isolation from the highest plateaus of
>northern
>and central Laos has a lot to do with our extremely provincial view >on
>most matters.
>
Hawjlauj, I suggest that you seek help immediately. You have a
severe symptom that experts usually refer to as "cultural
deficiency".
A person like yourself should abandon your Hmong name "Hawj Lauj"
and adopted some homo-like names for your full satisfaction.
llh...@flash.net
Re: Same-Clan Marriage Prohibition/Deficiency in Reasoning
Dear Hawj and Others:
I just want to point out some observations regarding your expositions as
I read through this thread. I believe that it's inappropriate to use
biological science to explain a sociocultural practice. One can't use
biological science to explain same-clan marriage prohibition any more
than using social sciences to explain genetic mutation. Same-clan
marriage prohibition is a social and anthropological practice and thus
can't be explained logically using biological science. That's why there
are different branches of academia to study and explain different things:
Biology to explain life and Social Sciences to explain social practices.
Same-clan marriage prohibition obviously falls within the domain of
Social Sciences.
I also want to point out the fact that there is no real prohibition
against same-clan marriage in the Hmong culture. However, there is great
societal pressure. As far as I know, in Luang Prabang and Sayabouri
provinces of Laos, same-clan marriages has been in existence for as long
as the Hmong's existence in Laos. Thus we have such terms and expressions
as "Xyooj Neej Tsa" and "Vaj Neej Tsa." So the claim of "same-clan
marriage prohibition" is not totally accurate. The Faaj, Kwm, and Haam
clans were reported to have been created because of same-clan marriages.
One is free to marry member of one's own clan if he/she is able put up
with the social ridicule from the community.
For those that are condenming Hawj Lauj, I suggest that you re-examine
the facts and do some critical analyses. The Vaj and Xyooj have been
marrying each others for ages. Why don't you condenm them? Are these
clans any less Hmong than other clans? Obviously not. They are as part of
the Hmong culture and community as any other Hmong clans, if not more. I
did not see any negative effect(s) resulting from such practice. In fact,
one can infer that the practice actually strengthened the bonds between
the members because they are related in so many ways.
On a global scale, we see that different societies moved from same-clan
marriage prohibition to allowing marriage within the same clan.
Personally, I see this as a natural progression among cultures as they
move from small communal dwelling, where everyone knows everyone else, to
more urbane dwelling where anonymity is the rule rather than the norm.
This is true for the Chinese, Vietnamese, and Koreans. In fact, the
Korean Supreme Court finally ruled last year that same-clan marriage
prohibition law in Korea infringes upon the individual's right to pursue
happiness and thus it was unconstitutional.
With that aside, this is what I believe to be the social and
anthropological explanation for same-clan marriage prohibition in the
Hmong culture. As we know, the Hmong tribe is organized into clans.
Therefore, all aspects of Hmong life is built around the clan system. The
unifying force of a clan is its shared belief in a totem and/or ritual
which is common to all the clan members. Thus the clan system fosters
group harmony and solidarity which enables the Hmong to survive living in
harsh and inhospitable environments. Endogamy, the custom of marrying
only within one's own clan and exogamy, the custom of marrying only
without one's own clan are two known practices among human cultures. The
Hmong just happened to be practicing exogamy. The taboo of same-clan
marriage in the Hmong culture is a totem and/or ritual one, not
biological and/or quasi biological as you described. The clan members,
though may not berelated genetically, are nonetheless related ritually or
by their totem belief and thus the taboo of same-clan marriage. Again,
this is for group harmony and solidarity. Imagine, if you will, if
same-clan marriage is allowed, male members of the clan will be competing
for the attentions of their female counterparts or vice versa and once
marriage takes place and bride price is discussed. What would happen to
group harmony and solidarity? I am sure you know the answer to the
question.
The issue of cross-cousins marriage (muam npaws nus npo) is one that can
legitimately be addressed by biological science because of the potential
for "in-breeding," but that is outside the sphere of same-clan marriage
prohibition and thus should be discussed separately. I agree whole
heartedly that cross-cousins marriage should not be practiced and it is
becoming rare, especially here in the United States.
Best Regards,
Alan
Neil N. Vang
Hawjluaj:
A deficiency of reasoning as you stated would be the exact description
I would label you, just from your posting. It also appears that you
really have no grasp of biology or the mechanisms of biology.
This is reasoning for someone who is deficient in the act of
reasoning. For being the population size that we are, we are very few
in comparison to other populations in the world. Inbreeding is
unfavorable biologically, and more specifically, it is genetically
unfavorable. The definition of inbreeding is mating with close
relatives. The closer one is with another individual, the more homology
the two individuals DNA will be, thus the higher the probability and
frequency of deleterious effects. Inbreeding allows for little chance
of variability to arise making us less adaptable to a changing
environment. That is a long story made short to prove my point that you
are not getting your money's worth in your investment in higher
learning.
Even with the little knowledge which the elders in the Hmong community
possess, they are quite the wiseman. Not formally learned, but
realistically founded. The preservation of our uniqueness as a people
is to uphold traditions and beliefs specific to us. And inbreeding is
not one of them. All this talk can go one forever, because this is
afterall America and we are free to think, feel, and express our
thoughts, but it comes down to superiority in morals and values.
Viability is a value dependent upon gene-pool diversity and favorable
genotypes and phenotypes. Intraclan marriages is not the way to go in
the natural world because all signs point to extinction.
T. Xiong
An interesting point of view you have on the Hmongs having a primitive
cultural practice. I find your argument to be very eurocentrically based. I
think Western hegemony has brainwashed to you degrade the Hmong culture in
such a way. If you believe that same-clan marriages is an obstacle to you
then I suggest that you do not practice it and the rest of the Hmong will
continue. Your argument is still in its infancy because your reasoning is
based on ideas that are no longer valid. (You want to change Hmong cultural
practices according to Western ideologies) Post-modernism would suggest that
we have multi-realities. Perhaps you are not familiar with a field of study
called Anthropology?
But why are you debating about this subject? It was exhaustively
discussed in the forum and the conclusion was do what you want as in many
other topics. Lastly I would think that you would have a better view of the
Hmong and its culture. I suspect this kind of reasoning would come from a
non-Hmong above all!
hawj...@aol.com
Hello, Neil N. Vang:
Yours is the first personal letter I answered, because you sounded as if
though there's some possible sparks in your thoughts. I try not to
answer direct mail unless they are pertaining to specific-issues
clearification purposes.
"A deficiency of reasoning as you stated would be the exact description I
would label you, just from your posting. It appears that you really have
no grasp of biology or the mechanism of biology.....a long story made
short to prove my point that you are not getting your money's worth in
your investment in higher learning." You have proved NOTHING, sir! You
simply attacked Hawj Lauj personally and said "a long story made short"!
I will not even attempt to ask naively and facetiously something in the
vein of "You, then, must be a pre-med student majoring in biology, Neil
N. Vang, since you know so much about biology and the mechanics of
biology?" To ask that would've simplified my observations too much,
making them seem as if though I didn't have the wherewithal to assume
something general about you. Unlike you and many college kids I've come
across here in the Internet, I don't resort to argumentum ad hominems.
If there's any genetically and/or biologically unsound statement I've
made, I stand corrected. But the only concrete statement having anything
remotely to do with biology/genetics, if I remember it correctly, was the
one about the hypothetical persons "X" and "Y" in relative to "Hawj
Lauj." If you don't agree with me on that, boy, you must be way too
extraordinarily smart to have forgotten to grasp elementary genetics!
(Los yog ntshai koj ho zoo li cov tub hluas uas cov laus pheej hais hais:
"yuav ruam tsis ruam kiag, yuav ntse tsis ntse kiag, yog cov nyob nruab
nrab uas pheej cam zij nqas tsis muaj paus, tsis muaj ntsis"!) Mr. Neil
N. Vang, ALL of our mother's and father's siblings' OFFSPRING HAVE THE
SAME PERCENTAGE OF GENETIC INFORMATION in relation to us. My point was
that Hmong can NOT reason logically and that's why they BELIEVE (through
social fear rather than genetic understanding) that ONLY our PATERNAL
uncles' daughters are genetically related to us and NOT our MATERNAL
uncles' daughters, and therefore it follows (in Hmong's patriarchal view)
that it's in-breeding to marry the former (valid) but ideal to marry the
latter (invalid)! Both hypothetical marriages can have deleterious
genetic mutation. Is that too complicated for you to understand??? Ask
your biology professor (about the genetic relationships, that is), if you
are not sure. Hawj Lauj stands corrected on the said relationship, if by
some yet unknown 6th-dimension genetics law Hawj Lauj is proven wrong!
(Note: The said example has to do with "full-blooded" relatives and NOT
adoptives, halves, steps-, and what-not. It gets rather complex when one
takes into consideration non-"full-blooded" relatives; indeed, if the
latter was also included in the equation then the argument shifted even
more onto my line of argument of negligible genetic relationships, in
terms of both inter- and intra-clan marriages.)
But I was NOT even talking about related individuals, really! That's
what's so amazing to me about most of you college kids and typical
grown-up Hmong out there. My general critique of Hmong's same-clan
prohibition had to do with genetically UNRELATED (or as unrelated as
possible) individuals who just happen to share the same last name.
Furthermore, and this is when most of you just fail MISERABLY to
comprehend, even if two Lauj families should be able to "trace" their
respective lines back to a single set of ancestors at some point in
China, genetic mix and diffusion with other clans throughout the long,
multi-generational separation alone would have made the said two Lauj
families far more unrelated than the picks from any Hmong neighbor across
the street. Indeed, one of my main corallaries was that some seemingly
unrelated clans are in fact much more genetically related than strangers
with the same last name! So, to turn the tables, most of your statements
to the effect of marrying "outside the clan" eliminates in-breeding, in
fact, maybe necessarily invalid.
You let your emotions get ahead of you and didn't really read or
understand my piece carefully. (Some may even claim it's so "stupid" a
piece it's not even worth their time; and yet they would respond to it at
a 5th grade cognitive ability level.) In my original piece, if you read
it in its entirety before becoming all red with indignation, you'd have
noticed that I didn't even dwell on biology or genetics in any depths,
but only to mention the general laws governing genetics and possible
mutation. The weakness in your approach (and almost all other college
kids and grown-up Hmong here in the Internet) is that the minute you saw
my stand pertaining to Hmong's same-clan prohibition, which was/is an
antithesis to yours, your eyes bulged and you just had to insult the
author. I understand, most young people are like that. But,
unfortunately, most grown-up Hmong are like that too and will never
venture far from such a stagnated and primal phase, because they've not
cultivated their cognitive ability early enough to have formed the
necessary necessary scientific and philosophical foundations to escape
it. Cultural forces are tremendous, and as such they can keep you
narrowly and cultrurally bound for all your life or they can set you
sailing across vistas of vastness into different epistimological
landscapes.
Let me assure you I know about general biological cause-and-effect,
Darwin's classical (simpler) general theory on genetic
variability/viability, and our modern and more complicated understanding
of genetics as much as you or any college-educated individuals out there.
The only people I don't hope to compete with are competent scientists
who specialized in the relevant biological field of studies.
Subsequently, except for your simplistic and illogical personal notes
directing at Hawj Lauj, I have no qualms about your statements about
biology and genetics; they're cogent enough general observations, not
unlike mine.
My suggestion is that you quote exactly where I err and show me your
particular insight into why and how I err. But, please, stop this
chidishness of calling an individual names. The difference between you
and me is that I made critical and constructive (albeit "sensitive" or as
you people like to call it "blasphemous") observations pertaining to the
Hmong culture at large: You, on the other hand, simply announced
yourself to be at-most semi-capable like many cocky but clue-less
undergraduates. I hope you are an undergraduate, for it would be very
sad and indefensible if it turned out that you're a graduate, possibly
even working in some medical-related fields; for your ability to
comprehend semi-complicated issues is quite lacking, Mr. Neil N. Vang.
And the following examples are the most common phrases I hear from
typical incompetent readers from the Hmong community: "You [meaning Hawj
Lauj] ----- [some expletive], you're so stupid. You should change your
name, your face; in fact you should not even be Hmong or claim to be;
you're a disgrace to the Hmong culture," etc., etc., etc. Such are
naught but childishness and they don't bother me a bit, let me assure you
to the utmost degree. Furthermore, I don't stoop to bickering with
juveniles and young people who are still undergoing transformational
changes. Others are beyond help in terms of cultivating a cognitive
ability.
(The following excerpt is taken from my original piece to which you
responded. See if you "find" yourself lost in that inferred crowd: "The
author [i.e. Hawj Lauj], for example, has received not a few
correspondences saying, 'Oh, the reason you're saying such a horrible
thing is because yu're "in love" with another Lauj, that's why! You
should be ashamed of yourself. Your parents, too, should be ashamed of
themselves for having raised such a stupid person as you.")
Colleges and other higher institutions are places for critical thinking:
They are where ALL ideas are examined and re-examined. Indeed, nothing
under the cosmos is beyond the domain of human comprehension (or at least
beyond humans' wants and needs to comprehend). To the mind of a
intelligent and curious organism, nothing is restricted or exempted from
being looked at, critiqued and/or improved upon. Wishing otherwise (e.g.,
whether for a "sacred" birth or for the "return" of some "Godly messiah
to cleanse the world of evil and ignorance," et al.) is naught but a
primitive and self-imposed act of delusion. Such acts are detrimental to
the minds, an incredible organism which has taken natural evolution at
least millions of years to accomplish. My suggestion is, take some
logic, philosophy, and sociological courses; they should help you to
grow, enabling you to stand away from "heated" issues and look at them
critically NOTWITHSTANDING your personal opinion. I, Hawj Lauj, read
broadly and even though I don't foolishly imagine myself to be an
"intellectual" (whatever it really entails), Mr. Neil N. Vang, I have
very little problem identifying perceptive and keen individual thinkers
and writers from run-of-the-mills. Incidently, you need not worry about
me. I hope you're learning, because I am. Each of us ought to worry
about ourselves first; nurture our minds and thoughts; free ourselves
from proncincial prejudices and psychological "prisons," primitive
beliefs and practices and other superstitions; think the "impossibles;"
dream the impossible dreams; and reach for the future the best that we
can.
On these thoughts, I leave you. And, please, if you feel inclined,
simply post your critque at-large. It is not necessary to email me
privately, as I want this to be a public discourse -- not a forum for
juvenile babbling.
Sincerely,
Hawj Lauj
P.S. It is "Hawj Lauj," the "u" is preceded by the "a" -- if you read,
write, and/or speak Hmong well. If not, there's all the time in the
world to learn. Incidently, "Hawj Lauj" is an authentic Asian name,
specifically a Hmong name....
Student at Cal Poly
maybe no one condemns the vangs and xiong cuz no one knows about it..or
maybe everyone hate it so much..no one wants to talk aabout it...i know
for a fact that back in laos, general vang pao use to tthreaten to kill
anyone who does it..maybe he did it a few times...i dont' kow taht for
sure..but he did actually drag people into public and pulls handguns
intot heir heads...couples actually separate cuz after they are married
cuz vang pao did that....in the US....i know a few people that did the
same thing..but of cousre no one kill them...they dissaappeared for a
while and then came back...soem of them ditch the hmong society and live
like outcasts...maybe it's better for them anyway...
sar4hku...@gmail.com
HenryDavidT
Glad you enjoyed that little ranting I did, some 18 years ago.
Unfortunately, nothing much has changed in the intervening years. For the average Hmong, that is.
I am sure more and more individuals have, on their own, taken on the same attitude, understanding, and/or view I've taken, I always have taken, from an early age....regarding tribal groups & tribal views.
I still --- from my dark little cave, all by myself ---- bitch about Hmong primitive, patriarchal, and narcissistic views of themselves and of the larger world around them.
And the Hmong moving quite happily along, they say, not giving me one ounce of thought! And rightly so, since I have never invested in the Hmong in any way whatever. And when I die, it will be the end of me, and my constant bitchin', since I've never married and will never give the world, much less the Hmong community, my genes.
HenryDavidT
But there should be a little red meat for them, if they want it.
Watch out; and watch for it! ... My next ranting (pseudo essay) is going to be about Asian WOMEN's messed up mind, when it comes to the big White Man hero and hunter.
As a trivial and yet persistent sociological-psychological issue that has quietly caught my attention since college days...
For some very strange, odd, and bizarre reason that I've not been able to comprehend, the ARGUMENT of the average Asian woman who marry Whites ---- who "would only marry whites," etc ---- SEEMS to say (indirectly & implicitly, even if they are never smart enough to articulate it loudly or overtly) that once the Asian women give birth to their Asian boys, they abandon them, to be raised by wolves and other creatures... and that's why, once grown, the average Asian man is just too this or that, FOR them (these Asian women who would marry only Whites, even if their lives depended on the whole thing; and SOME die or have been abused horribly & unnecessarily because that bizarre attitude of theirs)... for these Asian women... who are into almost exclusively White Men...
The other ranting I have been thinking about, wanting to do a pseudo essay on, is about DEATH... the passage of time, the passing of our parents and elders, the seemingly eternal cycles of summers, autumns, winters, and springs...
The awareness of the fragility of life and the larger cosmic truth ... that we literally all came from star dust ---- borne from inside giant stars which went supernova in order to give birth to our own present sun and earth and other neighborly planets ---- and that we all shall, literally, return to being nothing but star dust, both as individual when we die and as a whole planet itself ... someday, when out suns expands and dies, scorching out little planets into tiny atomic constituents, to be dispersed into the neighborhood, to someday again coalesce into another sun and planets and creatures... in the far, far distant future...
AEON
AEON
tsov...@gmail.com
I see your points. I know that many Hmong aren't ready for that change because they are still have a shallow mind of thinking or I called it ethnic thinking, you called it "Primitive". Until Hmong have a country of their own or one universal religion to follow then Hmong can't accept that view. I strongly ask to come and join Hmongtebchaws.net
Tsov,
AEON
AEON
> The 1st person to prohibit same clan marriage is NOT STUPID
#1 gENETIC POOL issue the lesser the GENETIC POOL the more PHYSICAL deleopment UNNORMAL. yug tau menyuam LEM TES NKHAUS TAW. kuv yuav kuv niam tus nus tus ntxhais wb twb yug tau 2 tug kid tus ntiv taw me2 kawg nram ub ho LOJ2 twb yuav kuag ncau ua 2 tug ntiv taw ALMOST 6 TOES instead of 5 toe as normal HUMAN.SAME CLAN means same genes from the father side yug menyuam yuav out of NORMAL SCIENTIFICALLYAGREE less pool of gen mean OROBLEM.
#2 politically un-balance. yog pub rov yuav nws xeem ces 5 muaj lwm xeem los PAB TXHAWB TIV THAIV hauv KASMOOS HMOOB LEEJ TWG XAV UA KASMOOS no ces MUS COG krv neej tsa nrog xeem YAJ,LIS, thiab VAJ tau 3 xeem no PAB TXHAWB ces koj KASMOOS YUAV RUAJ KHOV.KOJ mus cog neej tsa nrog xeem xyooj tsawg2 ces KASMOOS yuav ntog.
as PRIMITIVE as our ANCESTORS were they seems to be SCIENTIST ENOUGH IN this field of marriage and descendents effects. 2 thumps UP for that RULE/CUSTOM to prevent SAME CLAN MARRIAGE.
All4One
I've read some of the counter arguments mad by members of this forum...NONE otherwise, had really shed lights (scientifically, anthropologically, sociologically, all the "logically" lol) as to WHY Hmong prohibited same clan marriage??? NO ONE seem to make a good case/argument other than they succeeded in calling you names. If this is all that there's to our so call "INTELLECTUALS"....then I'm very concern about our standing in the larger scientific community?
I, for one, do not believe that we should continue this practice in this time/generation/age. It may have worked for another time when the world was small and Hmong was in a warring state or "primitive" time. However, time has changed and we NEED to change with time. A culture/people that doesn't change through the age of time will cease to exist let alone compete on a scientific community.
Jim
AEON
I MARRIED MY MOTHER'S BROTHER DAUGHTER and GUESS WHAT? I GOT 2 JID with 5 and 1/2 toes almost 6 toes EACH OF THE KID.GENE WISE the same LASTNAME DOES NOT MATTER but the closely related GENE CAUSE STRANG KID PHYSICALLY. DON'T TELL ME you and your 1st cousin will JOIN in the middle area to make kids. I WILLADVOCATE A BAN send you 2 to the CAVE like HMONG DID to HMOOB MOB RUAS back in the OLD DAYS. in VINAI we got a relative( txivntxawm) DID NOT KNOW the GIRL in 08 linage too good BUT she was SWEET to him. the COUPLE CAN'Y LET GO so he married her with our TRADITION marriage svebt BUT after a few months the NEWS STARTED to SPREAD like fire and that UNCLE had no CHOICE BUT INVESTIGATION INTO HIS HONEY FAMIKY TREE. AFTER he found OUT her gotTIGHT FAMILY AT xum-n xab nuv above 03. so he secretely TOLD A FEW of our family leader. the CONCLUSION had he move from 02 up to that little mountain in 03. the UNCLE take the option for a few days and HE DID NOT WANT to be seperate ALONE with his HONEY in 03 so we shipped his HONEY BACK to her family. she SWEET and HOT for a HMONG GIRL but our UNCLE CAN'T KEEP HER NEITH the 2 had to be SEPERATED after a few day to workout the marriage MATTERS.
AEON
yag...@gmail.com
Keep in mind these points..
meskas thinking...
1. Ur fathers brother is uncle
2. Ur moms brother is uncle
3. Being related as in a family is through blood
Ummmm...for a hmong these things dont make since.
Hmong thinking..
1. Ftathers brother is either older father or younger father
2. Mothers brother is dab laug
3. Hmoob ib tse neeg kev sis txheeb has nothing to do with blood but xeem n dab qhua...
As twisted as it is...it is what it is. Two mong brothers can be blood related but belong to two different unrelated families. An adopted african boy can become a mong and a related family member if adopted by a hmong. It is what it is.
I do not c the validity of the rgument especially when her implies or assumes that mong r related through blood...
i used this example before...conditions inside a vaccuum or 65000ft is different from sea level conditions. To use conditions at sea level open air to apply to a vacuum is not correct....the solution will always be off if the conditions r different.
Note that the words txheeb/ze as used in the mong language is not necessarily the same as "blood related" as used in the european context either.
But...the good news is...as hmong grow...such an issue will not matter...not because it is wrong or illogiacal...but because people dont care for such ways anymore.
Yh
yag...@gmail.com
AEON
YES HMONG consider the FATHER'S SIDE THE BONE while the MOTHER SIDE ONLY the MEAT this was due to the SEED of creation came from the father 1ST once the seed got into the mother she just WRAP those seeds/bone with MEAT around them. PERSONALLY I say my weak MUSCLES I GOT THEM FROM MY MOM while my little bones and SHORTY I GOT THEM from my DAD.
the YANG FAMILY WHICH my linage was a part of 4 generation AGO can NOT keep the simple KEV DAB QHUAS. look at the YANG FAMILY NOW ADAY you will find some 5 TXIG some 7 TXIM and some 9 TXIG too. just a SINGLE DIGIT them HMONG still MESS ALL UP into so many BRANCHES. akso just look at that rule "BOY KEEP same LAST NAME" SOME HMONG GOT SO MAD for some REASONS he change HIS LAST NAME TO..... YOU CALL ME LIAR... just go ask tge THAO and KWM they found out they are the same FAMILY one of the crother made the CHANGE can't blame one of them IN USA here they re join into one with an ORG call THOJ KWM KOOM HAUM.
WE DESERVE SHORT and SIMPLE RULE. if the new born got 2 nuts and a stick than used the BIGGEST ANIMAL you got to HU-PLIG he the new born got no nuts than just use the SMALLEST to HU-PLIG. she ONLY DESERVE that chicken because after she grow beyond 12 she RUN AWAY some even run away before 8th grade in FRESNO. don't worry she will NOT get a crack line or a BRUISE they are OK and got kids NORMALLY too. the family isn't too far from here. less than 20 miles from my little old house.SOME GIRL EVEN RAN AWAY when she was 11 almost 12 and the family is FULLY NORMAL with beautiful GURLOS and handsome BOYS GURLO rusn away so a chicken and an egg is TOO MUCH ALREADY.
the creator KNEW that by the time HMONG GREW UP HMONG will KNOW ABC123 and some even attemt to master CALCULAS and disintegration and know the BASIC of blood and gene so the HMONG will ADAPT THEM IRON/STONE HEADS. tell me I'M A FOOL. YEP.. FOOL ENOUGH to run away into the JUNGLE and RESIST a NATIONAL COMMIE TROOPS of hundred or more on high mountain with AK 47 and RPG7 fully NATIONAL GRADE WEAPONS AGAINST OUR SHAKY FEETS. they even sneaked at night to within 50 meters before the OPEN FIRE. all we can do was run with our shaking feets FAST FTHOUSAND times the speed of those AK47 because we GOT AWAY UNHURT A BIT.2 RPG7 hit within a few meters FAILED to bring us down. YEP RUN and MORE RUNNING UNTIL MIDNIGHT THAT DAY. our group got obe B40and several EGG SIZE AMMOS that we kept TRADING with the COMMIE NATIONAL ARMY gues what? AFTER TOO MANY of them got eggs from GREEN FLIES them soldiers just QUIT and MIGRATE DOWN HILL to the city. day later we came back to inspect the place and we saw lots of agreen flies and AWEFULLY BAD SMELL with thrown away bandages. TOO BAD they did leave BEHIND bottle of 80 proof or any BEER LAO nor a few can of fish nor beef.STINGY COMMIE SOLDIERS.wecknew they got ALL of that in 30KG+on each of them DEAD SOLDIER. often they just THREW AWAY THOSE BOTTLES and CANS in dozens after a past through our HUTS in the JUNGLE just to kid our apitize. CARE NOT WHEN WE GOT TUBERS, SQUAREL, and ground hog meats from a MOUNTAIN TRIP after hours of DIGGING. HAHA we fool around and survive. DO NOT COPY CAT. any COPY the CAT will FAIL. it's ONLY GOOD ONE TIME. we already took that chance.DO IT AS LIS TXAIS PREACHED IN VINAI BUT NOT AS HE DID.if you are curious than go find out yourself. I WON'T TELL WHAT HE DID. don't be fool like me to run away into the JUNGLE, you will be HUNGRY and WEAK. IF YOU SEE RAT. YOU WILL SAY A GOD has RECURE YOU FROM HUNGER a half aday. I TRAPPED and ATE HUNDRED of them BIG RATS I CHOP DOWN A TREE to get the HONEY from a BEE FAMILYL I used AX on a truck of tree in our farm and I ATE the HONEY TOO. I DUG TUBERS from 10-20 feet deep UNDERGROUND ENOUGH for two meals. the NEXT DAY IT would lucjy if I FIND ANOTHER FEW TUBERS HOPEFULLY the RED ONES that ONLY GO 1 METERS DEEP. and grow to the size of 8-10 inches in diameter. MY WHOLE TIME IN THE JUNGLE I ONLY FOUND 2 OF YHOSE RED ONE. the GREEN TUBER usually do NOT grow to EAT-ABLE SIZE UNTIL it went down atleast 7 feet deep. those tuber got so deep EZ because YEARS AFTER YEARS it follow the same track of the previous generation of tuber. each generation LAST A YEAR. after a year the tuber will grow OLD, die, and rotten away into the track asNUTRIENTS for the NEXT GENERATION. each year the younger generation would DIG DEPPER A LITTLE. REPEAT like that and after decades without ENEMY attack the tuber will be 10-20 feet DEEP into the ground, some will even SQUEEZ the ROCK AWAY to be an EZ PATH deeper into the ground. NO NO Y it had to go deeper every year EITHER U GO ASK the creator himself if you need more info. NATURE are STRANGE that way.. a CHINESE MEDICINE DOCTOR TOLD ME A TYPE of HERB will TREAT MY CONDITION PERFECTLY. I DID MORE RESEARCH and guess WHAT? that HERB spent half a year as GRASS in tge summer and turn itself into a WORM in the WINTER during WINTER it does that tobAVIID FREEZING TO DEAD BY DIG Y DEEPER. once the COLD is gone it will turn into a GRASS and grow more with PHOTOSYNTHESIS method of SURVIVAL. who's SMARTER THAN THAT. I CHECKED 4he PRICE AND I CAN NOT AFFORD DRINKING THEM AS DAILY TEA. it SMELL and looks NOTHING DIFFERENT than A WORM so I BEG MY WIFE TO STOP COOKING THEM SUMMER GRASSCWINTER WIRM. SPARE THEM LITTLE CREATURE.I SURRENDERED AFTER A FEW CUPS OF SMELLY and WORM LIKE IN VISUALIZATION. MY WIFE ENFORCE to drink more and I SAID make 3 cups NEXT TIME I'LL DRINK 2 CUPS after you FINISH 1. HA HA she took a sip and thew up VIOLENTLY. more???. NO NO NO NO MORE SHE CLAIMED SHE SAW MORE GRUESOME ONES during her cooking session I WAS SPARED TO SEE THE WORST SHE SAID. I ASKED to bring it 4 me to see. the NEXT DAY SHE BROUGHT A BUNCH and they look no different than the DRIED SKIN PART of the WORM I USED at our FISHING TRIP where the sell in dozen for 2.99. OHNO MY WIFE WON'T HOOK the worm to the FISHING HOOK. someone need to do that part she will do the FISHING PART JUST FINE. SHE HATES US when we say no worm on the hook no FISHING TODAY. she say no dinner tonight if you do NOT ORDER dekivery meals tonight. I SAY PIZZA TRIPLE MEAT LOVER. no PANE CRUST.. SHE COMPLANT TSOVTOM SIAB PHEM. 5 KAM ORDER KUV HOM UAS TUS ntug QAB2. she walks away frim th fishing dock with her 1/4 KILOGRAM LIPS. don't tell HER I SAID SO or HER LIPS MIGHT GROW DOUBLE NEXT TIME. double 1/4== 1/2 KILOGRAM. DO NOT MAKE A LADY MAD.I KNOW A TRICK or 2. PANE CRUST will solve A THING or 2.
AEON
> I do find it more logical...now that we r thinking n changing...is rhat we should change our view to look at blood as the main source of kev sis txheeb rather than dab qhua n xeem.
that place was so secret it got ZERO TELEPHONE LINE INTO the house. all COMMUNICATION ARE done through TRUSTED SLAVES/AIDS ONLY. the YOUTUBE VDO SAID he was resting in the OCEAN AFTER a positive ID by US RAID TEAM.