Some of the meaningless of Hmoob Tshoob Kos

[kwvtijhmoob]

Tham txog Hmoob tshoob kos kuj pom tau hais tias niam no peb ib co kuj
xav kom pauv, ib cov twb pauv lawm, ho ib co kuj hais tias tej no yog
poj ua tseg yawm ua cia ces yuav tau tsis txhob pauv. Yog li cias peb
sim los ua twb zoo saib seb yam twg zoo yam twg tsis zoo.

Rau kuv mas cov nram qab no yuav tsum tau muab tso pov tseg tsis txhob
ua ntxiv lawm vim tsis zoo.
1. Tseb luam yeeb - thaum ub vim cov txiv neej yeej haus luam yeeb
yuav luag tas tus thiab vim luam yeeb is the only gift they could
afford to give, tab sis niam no nws yog ib yam BAD IMAGE for our kids
and for most of us adult. Yog li tsis need lawm.
2. Pe - tsuas pe niam pe txiv lawm xwb. lwm tus ces tsis pe li
lawm. tab sis txog kuv no ces kuv tsis pub pe kuv li lawm.
3. tus kwvtij/tus coj tshoob coj kos tuaj txais lub xo - thaum ub mas
vim lawv yuav tau muaj 1 tug tuaj ua pov thawj vim tsis muaj tej cai
mainstream los overwrite it lawm. Tab sis niam no ces peb cov pov
thawj no nws tsis muaj meaning dab tsi lawm. Peb txawm muaj 1 tug
kwvtij tuaj ua pov thawj txais lub xov tag los yog ib chim 2 tug, tus
tub los yog tus ntxhais tsis txaus siab ces yeej tsis muaj leej twg
hais tau nkawv. Qhov tseeb yog underage marriage, tus tuaj txais lub
xo no tseem yuav mag mus jail thiab. Yog li no tsis txhob muaj lawm
zoo dua.
4. Txoj siv ceeb - vim thaum ub Hmoob tej ris tsho yeej tsis muaj
hnab ris hnab tsho ntim nyiaj ces nqa nyiaj mus fiv xov los tseem muab
ua poob tom kev lawm thiab no ces lawv thiaj muab txoj siv ceeb coj
los khi nqa mus thiaj tsis poob no xwb. Tab sis niam no peb twb muaj
hnab ris hnab tsho lawm ces peb tsis need lawm.
5. Mejkoob - thaum ub mas vim lawv hais zaj muaj haiv hais ces lawv
thiaj siv mejkoob. tab sis rau kuv mas Mejkoob are the trouble maker
xwb. They are considered the negotiators, tab sis vim lawv pheej haus
cawv ces ib chim tsis meej pem lawv ces niam txiv hais ib yam ho nws
ho mus hais ib yam lawm ces thaum kawg muaj problem. Thiab qhov loj
tshaj yog it's just take too much time. niam no time is money. tsis
need lawm.
6. Lub kaus - lub kaus mas kuv los yeej tsis tau paub qhov purpose
thiab tab sis raws li kuv to taub mas yog muab roos kev phem kev tsis
zoo thiab coj plig nyiaj plig kub plig tub plig ki los rau nkauj nyab
thiab nraug vauv no sub. tej no rau kuv nws tsis muaj meaning dab
tsi? my question is what did the Hmong use during stone age when they
had no kaus. Nyiaj thiab kub yog los ntawm nkawv 2 txais tes thiab
lub hlwb txoj kev kawm xwb. Ho tub kis yog los ntawm nkawv 2 qhov
chaw mos xwb. Yog nkawv tsis muaj teb yam no ces txawm ua npaum ces
los tsis work.
7. Txiv cob txheeb - thaum ub lawv siv vim yog nkawv lub neej tsis
zoo tiag los yeej yog tus txiv ntxawm thiab dab laug tuaj ntuas xwb.
Tab sis niam no yog nkawv tsis yeem sib yuav lawm ces txawm yog
Huabtais nqis los ntuas kiag los yeej tsis work lawm. Yog thaum lub
sij hawm noj tshoob es ho xav kom muaj lus qhuab ntuas rau tus ntxhais
thiab tus vauv los kuj nrhiav ua twb zoo mus nrhiav tej tus txawj
ntuas, txawm yog hmoob dab tsi los txawj xwb ces thov kiag nws pab
ntuas xwb zoo tshaj li tseem yuav kom 2 tug txiv cob txheeb vim feem
ntaus cov txiv cob txheeb niam no ces lus xwb twb tsis txawj hais kiag
li.
7. Nus tij nus npaws los tsis need lawm
8. Phij laj niam tais ntsuab los tsis need lawm

Cov yuav tau muaj yog li nram no:
1. 2 tug tub thiab tus ntxhais los tim ntsej tim muag
2. 4 tug poj cuag yawm cuas tuaj tim ntsej tim muag - tuav tes sib
tham, sib introduce, sib zeem, etc..
3. 2 tug niam txiv, tab sis yuav tau muab pauv ua 2 tug laus neeg no
4. Nrhiav 1 tug neeg txawj txawj qhuab ntuas tej lus zoo tuaj ntuas
tej lus zoo rau 2 tug tub thiab tus ntxhais rau thaum lub sij hawm noj
rooj mov

[Born2beMhong]

Kwvtijhmoob,

kuv tsa kiag kuv tus Ntivtes Xoos rau koj ua #1 lawm nawb.

ua tsaug,

Born

[All4One]

question is....will you be the FIRST to make such change? If anyone of
you can do that....hmoob yuav mus ib kaum ruam ntxiv. What I perfer
seeing happen is that both sides of the parents get together face to
face and TALK about the BEST preparation for the wedding. Enough offo
those behind the scene of doing things.

Another DISSOLUTION i'd like to see happen in the near future is the
forbidden of same clan marriage. It doesn;t make sense to keep
practicing it.


Jim

[vimhlub]

Kuv los tsa kiag tus ntiv tes xoo lawm thiab ntag, TABSIS tsuas yog
tias tus ntiv tes xoo ntawd taw rau hauv av lawm xwb.

Ua ntej yuav hais ib yam dabtsi, yuav tsum paub tseeb hais tias yog
vim li cas thiaj ua li ntawd; yog vim li cas thiaj li tsis tsim nyog
ua lawm no paub. Tej "kwvtij" hais ntawd twb xu deb ntawm qhov tseeb
lawm es tseem hais tias "yog" no thiab ces txhais tau tias yawg kom
mus dhia dej los ntshe sawv daws yuav mus dhia dej thiab lau... Tos li
cov laus sij txhawb txog nej cov hluas ua luaj li... Yog tso nej coj
ntshe Hmoob yuav liam sim tau tiag tiag.

Tej "Proposal" kwvtij muab no mas txaus luag dhau lawm:

1. 2 tug tub ntxhais siv fim/siv yeem??? Ua cas niam cuag li nkawv
tsis tau sib fim dua li. Niaj hnub niam no ces yog yam txawj yaig
ces, nkawv twb yaig tas lawm. Txog txij luag twb "ua tshoob" lawm es,
tseem tshauv qhov "tim ntsej tim muag" qhov twg thiab?

2. Poj cuag yawm cuas tuaj sib tua tes??? Txaus luag tshaj plaws.
Hmoob kev cai poj cuag tsis lam tuav yawm cuas tes ib zaug. Nej twb
hais tias me nyuam yeem lawm ces tsis quav ntsej txog niam/txiv kev
txiav txim no nes? Muaj qab hau dabtsis es poj cuag tseem mus tuav
yawm cuas tes thiab?

3. Raws li nej hais, tub/ntxhais twb yeem lawm, tseem yuav tab kaum
lwm tus ua dabtsi? Tseeb/cuav tsis kawg tus tub/ntxhais los sav...
nej zaj cai nas.

4. Tsis tas ntuas lawm. Tej tub/ntxhais luag yeej sib ntuas luag
txaus lawm. Qhov luag twb yeem lawm, txawm nej yuav ntuas tsis ntuas
los tsis muaj qab hau dabtsi lawm. Ntuas ntau luag tseem yuav tsa tus
"middle finger" rau yus thiab.

Nej yuam kev lawm deb. Hmoob kev tshoob kos tsis yog tuaj TXHAWB qhov
uas tub ntxhais twb yeem lawm. Nws yog kev tuaj txuas neej txuas
tsav, txuas txheeb txuas ze. Yog tsis quav ntsej txog tej kev kwvtij
neejtsa ces tsis tas ua tshoob los tau. Yog ua li nej piav xwb ces
tsis txhob muab hu ua "Hmoob tshoob kos" no. Nej hu ua "wedding" los
yog "wetting".... whatever else los tau, tabsis txhob hu ua "Hmoob kab
tshoob kes kos". Hu li ntawd, mas txaus luag heev.

[Born2beMhong]

Npawg Vimhlub,

koj lam hais lus ntau xwb. lub sijhawm no, txawm peb yuav au ciaj ua
tuag los tsi muaj leej twg ua povthawj lawm. kev neej kev tsav los,
txheej niam no lawv twb yuav luag tsi saib kwv saib tij li lawm--cov
ua yuav noj yuav haus ua hnub ua mos ua ke ces yog nkawv ob tsevneeg
ntawd kiag lawm xwb. Vim lub sijhawm no, time is money thiab kev cai
yog main stream lawm xwb. hmoob tej kev ua ua lugtoj lugpe ces yog
lam ua dog ua dig laug sijhawm thiab laug sijhawm lawm xwb. tsi muaj
ib yam dabtsi ua yuav muaj zoo meaning kom benefit yus los yog society
lawm. kheev lam, ua tag es lam hos ua tau povthawj thiab los cas...ua
tag, yus tseem rov ntshais yus tus kheej tuaj lawm thiab--especially
yog under 18 os. yog thaum zoo li no lawm tiag, peb taw tes li cas
cesyog li ntawd xwb hmoob nad...

Vim ib rab teb lawm ib rab tsas txuj, thaum koj muab kuv ua txiv tuam
mejkoob losyog ua tus tswj tom hauvpaus rooj lawm ces kuv coj thiab
hais li cas nej yuav li ntawd lawm xwb. yog li ntawd, hnub no, peb
hais li cas los raug thiab yuav li ntawd lawm thiab xwb.

thaum tham lus los li no, peb yuav tsum tau list li Kwvtijhmoob list
no thiab peb reasoning ib qhov zujzus tias--yog ua ned, zoo dabtsi
thiab yuav muaj nqi los yog tsimtxiaj qhov twg tuaj. yog tsi muaj
ned, hos phem thiab tsi zoo qhov twg tuaj. thaum peb los reason li no
tag, ces tej kev ua no-have nothing in the reality of real life...li
peb tiam ua neeg kawm txawj kawm ntse rau tiam 21st century no lawm
ces...hais li Kwvijhmoob hais no ces yog #1 kiag lawm nawb mog.

yog koj xav kom ua li qub, ces koj tuaj list ib nqib zujzus es koj
piav qhov phem qhov zoo--seb cov reason puas txaus tshem tawm los cias
nyob mas thiaj li yog lus os.

peb txhob ua li hmoob ua lawm, ces yus xav li yus zaj ces yus cias li
tuaj dhia toj dhia pe li ub li no--ua li no, ces sibtham lus tsi muaj
chaw xaus li. peb hmoob pheej ua zoolino xwb, tsawg tiam los peb
thiaj li walk tsi tau ib kaujruam li. niam no, peb ua dabtsi peb yuav
tsum reason kiag peb qhov kev pom thiab kev xav...yog koj hais yog lus
lawm ces peb yeej agree kiag xwb. yog hais tsiyog lus, ces peb yuav
tsum tau muab tseg mus mas ib hnub peb thiaj li yuav mus lawm ib
kaujruam deb tshaj qub ntxiv nawb mog.

yog thaum peb cov no los ua cov cev lus lawm ces, tej haujlwm no
yoojyim li yoojyim tau lawm xwb. tsua yog tias, lub sijhawm no tseem
tshuav lawv tej niam tej txiv thiab tej tijlaug ces tsi tshua xav hla
lawv xwb.

ua tsaug,

koj me npawg Born

[vimhlub]

Npawg Born,

Vim koj yog ib tug tibneeg uas xav paub qhov tseeb "reason", cia kuv
piav seb koj puas ho "thim xav" los ras txog qhov tseeb tias Hmoob
kevcai yeej yog ib qhov ruaj zoo.

1. Tsab luam yeeb: Qhov nov vim yus yog yus ib niag qhua, luag thiab
yus yeej tsis tau sib paub/pom dua los. Txawm 2 leej puas leej tsis
haus luam yeeb los, tsab luam yeeb yog ib qho "gesture" hais tias "we
come in peace and we want to be your friends". Nws tsis tau txais
tias kuv/koj haus luam yeeb. Hmoob kom koj txais xwb, luag tsis tau
kom koj haus. Koj txais lawm, ces luag hais tias koj "accept" kuv ua
koj ib tug phooj ywg lawm no xwb. Therefore, we can sit down to
talk... It is a "show" of acceptance.

Hais txog qhov "kwvtij" hais tias 'tsis yog ib qhov zoo quav' rau cov
me nyuam. Niaj hnub no, pe tsawg tus me nyuam hais rau peb lawm tias
vim yog Hmoob sij tsab luam yeeb es lawv thiaj li haus luam yeeb no?
Yog yus me nyuam yoog yus tiag tiag li nej xav ces yus ua twb zoo qhia
tias kev tsab luam yeeb yog ib qho cai xwb, tsis yog "yuam" kom leej
twg haus... Yus tsab rau luag, tsis tau txhais tias yus yuav tau hlawv
tus luam yeeb rau luag los yog rau yus haus. Cov me nyuam to taub,
luag yuav pom qhov yog thiab qhov tsis yog lawm.

2. Pe: Hmoob hais tias kev pe yog kev lees paub... lees paub poj
paub yawm, lees paub niam paub txiv, lees paub niam hlob/txiv hlob,
niam ntxawm txiv ntxawm, etc... luag tsis kom koj mus tuav luag tes,
luag kom koj lees paub tias muaj luag no xwb... vim koj yuav tau hlub
luag thiab luag yuav tau hlub koj mus lawm yav tom ntej, yog li ntawd,
cia neb sib lees sib paub. It is not a submission to the person, but
a submission to the love that bonds you together. Yus tau luag neeg
lawm, ces luag yeej paub yus lawm. Tabsis yus puas kam lees paub
luag? The act of ACCEPTANCE binds you to the family and vice versa.

3. Tus coj tshoob: Human beings are not animals. In fact, even
animals have a leader. Tus coj tshoob yog tus coj ncaj. Tus yuav
saib kom txhua yam meej pem thiab ncaj ncees. Luag hais tias: Muab
dev tub, dev yuav tom. Tus coj tshoob yog tus yuav tiv thaiv kom niam/
txiv tsis txhob lam hais ub hais no los yog kom niam txiv tsis txhob
lam xuas qws rau NEJ. Yog tsis hu tus coj tshoob tuag ces kawg nej
mag qws thiab raug hu POLICE tuaj txhom nej xwb.

4. Txoj siv ceeb... Txoj siv ceeb represents the BRIDE, lub kaus
represents the GROOM. Thaum mus fi xov, luag nqa txoj siv ceeb mus...
represents that the girl is NOT lost or dead... that she just went off
to get married... Txoj siv ceeb yog puav pheej (the girl's belonging
-- proof that tus ntxhais yeej yog niam thiab txiv tus ntxhais tiag...
es mus yuav txiv lawm xwb).

5. Lub kaus khi txoj siv ceeb... tus tub thiab tus ntxhais los sib
koom ua neej lawm... a representation of their union.

6. Mejkoob - Vim tias niam-txiv yog yeeb ncuab los tejzaum tub
ntxhais sib nyiam yuav sib yuav. Yog li, tsis xav kom niam thiab txiv
tuaj sib tua. Luag thiaj li siv mej koob. Hmoob hais tias: lub hnub
tsis zoo muab coj mus twb lub hli. Do that and the moon will be
engulfed by the sun for sure. Therefore, mejkoob ua tus cev niam txiv
lus kom thiaj li tsis tawm txim.

7. Txiv cob txheeb (God father)... Ua neej nyob, tsis paub tias hnub
twg yuav zoo, hnub twg yuav phem. Yog thaum yus hais tsis tau lawm,
xav kom muaj tus pab tsom kwm kom zoo mus. It is like insurance...
You may not need it, but it is good to have it. Tus ruam ces huabtais
nqis los hais los thiaj tsis yuav xwb. Tus ntse, yog hais yog lawm,
nws yeej pom tias qhov zoo yog qhov twg. Yog ua raws li cov ruam zaj
xwb ces tsis tas yuav insurance los tau.

8. Nus tij/nus npaws -- Cov nod yog cov uas yuav saib tus muam ua
neej kom tus yawm yij hlub tus muam mus kom txog hnub kawg; kom tsis
txhob lam muab tus muam mus tso "khab teeb tim puam". Yog thaum tsis
muaj leej twg hais taus lawm, 2 tug no yog 2 tug yuav hais. Nej hais
tias: tebchaws no muaj police lawm nas... tabsis yog thaum police ua
tus tsis paub tsis pom, leej twg ho yog tus yuav nrhiav nej tus muam/
ntxhais?

9. Phim laj... Yes, it's "phim" and not "phij". Tus no yog tus
"groom's assistant" compared to a "bride's maid". Nws yog tus mus
"phim" tus vauv... mus nrog tus vauv lis haujlwm sib/hnyav kom rooj
tshoob tiav... again, compared to a bride's maid.

10. Niam txais ntsuab... again, it's niam 'txais' ntsuab and NOT niam
'tais' ntsuab. Tus no yog tus mus "txais" luag tus ntxhais los ua yus
tus nyab. In the past, it was the mother of the groom who actually
went to "receive" the bride. But nowadays, it's the sister of the
groom that assumes this duty because the mother is needed at home to
make the necessary preparations for the welcoming home of the bride.

Npawg born,

Koj hais tias kuv hais lus ntau, tabsis yog koj tsis nkag siab es ua
raws li 'kwvtij' xav los yog koj xav xwb, kuv xav tias tsis ntev ces
koj yuav tau ua li A xav, ua li B xav, ua li C xav... etc... It'll be
so crazy you'll wonder what's the proper way to do a Hmong wedding.

[kwvtijhmoob]

On Sep 27, 1:15 pm, vimhlub <vimh...@gmail.com> wrote:

> 1.  Tsab luam yeeb:  It is a "show" of acceptance.

if it's true as you said, it must be a JOKE then. ua cas hnub i lawv
tog ntxhais twb txais lawv tog tub cov luam yeeb coj mus nqe tag tseem
tsis accepted lawv es tseem nplua lawv nyiaj npaum ub npaum no thiab
tseem kicked lawv tog tub out thiab mas. anyway, my point is luam
yeeb is simply bad image. why not use something more meaningful or
has good image for it then.

> 2.  Pe:  The act of ACCEPTANCE binds you to the family and vice versa.

again, this only makes things look good for the bride, but bad for the
groom. the main thing is it does work in today's society anymore.

> 3.  Tus coj tshoob:  Tus coj tshoob yog tus yuav tiv thaiv kom niam/

> txiv tsis txhob lam hais ub hais no los yog kom niam txiv tsis txhob
> lam xuas qws rau NEJ.

tus coj tshoob coj kos ntag tus hnub i muab tog tub nplua nyiaj thiab
kicked lawv out os. this is untrue as you said.

> 4.  Txoj siv ceeb... Thaum mus fi xov, luag nqa txoj siv ceeb mus...

represents that the girl is NOT lost or dead...

different hmong person has a different story about this myth. no one
know for certain, but whatever the story you heard is not important.
the important thing is today we have new technology (phone) for us to
call to verify. It is 100 time better than txoj siv ceeb. So there
is no reason to use siv ceeb no more.

> 6.  Mejkoob -  Vim tias niam-txiv yog yeeb ncuab los tejzaum tub
> ntxhais sib nyiam yuav sib yuav.  

yog tuaj zij thiab zawj li thaum ub no ces mejkoob Ok thiab. tab sis
niam no tsis need lawm vim tub txhais yeej sib yeem lawm. it's just
waste of time. And i have seen many cases when they got drunk, they
were the ones started the trouble. so it will be better of not to
have them.

> 7.  Txiv cob txheeb (God father)... It is like insurance...

> You may not need it, but it is good to have it.  Tus ruam ces huabtais
> nqis los hais los thiaj tsis yuav xwb.  Tus ntse, yog hais yog lawm,
> nws yeej pom tias qhov zoo yog qhov twg.  

this only worked during stone age era. doesn't work in today's
society. so no need it.

> 8.  Nus tij/nus npaws -- Cov nod yog cov uas yuav saib tus muam ua
> neej kom tus yawm yij hlub tus muam mus kom txog hnub kawg; kom tsis
> txhob lam muab tus muam mus tso "khab teeb tim puam".  

again this only worked in stone age era, not today. so no need.

> 9.  Phim laj... Yes, it's "phim" and not "phij".  Tus no yog tus
> "groom's assistant" compared to a "bride's maid".  Nws yog tus mus
> "phim" tus vauv... mus nrog tus vauv lis haujlwm sib/hnyav kom rooj
> tshoob tiav... again, compared to a bride's maid.

might be true in the stone age era because the groom needed help to
cook, go out to cut wood, etc.. but not today. so no need.

> 10.  Niam txais ntsuab... again, it's niam 'txais' ntsuab and NOT niam
> 'tais' ntsuab.

In the old days, niam tais ntsuab yog tus watch out for nkauj nyab
tsam diav hluas nraug. Also, she acted as a helper to cook and get
water (ris dej ris taw, etc). but no need in today's society that has
new technology.

phooj ywg vim hlub-- i understand you have your reasons and i have my
own. your reason is that you want to keep these simply because they
are "poj ua tseg yawm ua cia." my reason is that we should not do
things the way we did in stone age era simply because they don't work
that way anymore. that's all.

sib tham tswv yim xwb, txhob xav li cas ov.

[kwvtijhmoob]

my main reasons are: these cause problems, too much time consuming,
don't work anymore, too much work, etc.. the key here is we must make
things simplier, short, easy and best for the girl and the guy.

[All4One]

agreed! However, changes start from YOU and ME...don't wait for others
to change....

[vimhlub]

What is meaningless to you, has deep, essential meanings to me.
What's simple and short for you, has no meaning, no significance
whatsoever for me.

For you, you can use the phone to ua tshoob and fi xov. For me,
that's an insult. Ua cas koj ho tsis siv phone tham kuv tus ntxhais
xwb es koj ho niaj hnub tuaj tom kuv tsev ua dabtsi? Thaum yus xav
tuaj no ces tuaj ov, thaum luag xav kom yus tuaj nrog luag hais ib
qhov tseeb no ces yus ho yuav siv phone thiab npaj khiav xwb?

This is the point: In all civilized proceedings, rituals, practices,
there has to be acceptable/respectable policies, processes, procedures
in place. Yog koj yuav siv phone hu kuv xwb tabsis kuv ho xav kom koj
tuaj tim ntsej tim muag, npawg Born ho xav kom wb sau ntawv thiaj li
tseeb es peb yuav ua leej twg zaj naw? Hmoob twb dhuav dhuav "dev/
npua" cai heev yog tseem ua li nej piav thiab ces ntshe dev/npua tej
cai tseem ruaj thiab "make sense" dua.

>if it's true as you said, it must be a JOKE then. ua cas hnub i lawv
>tog ntxhais twb txais lawv tog tub cov luam yeeb coj mus nqe tag tseem
>tsis accepted lawv es tseem nplua lawv nyiaj npaum ub npaum no thiab
>tseem kicked lawv tog tub out thiab mas.

Luag "accepted" koj tsuas txhais tias luag NPAJ MLOOG seb koj tuaj
hais dabtsis xwb laiv... not necessarily that they should accept
whatever you say.

>anyway, my point is luam
>yeeb is simply bad image. why not use something more meaningful or
>has good image for it then.

And how do you come to the conclusion that "luam yeeb" constitutes a
bad image? Is it because White Americans have told you so?

In most cultures, "Luam yeeb" has been the symbol of 'peace' and
'friendship' for time in memorial. So, what do you suggest that we
use that will be acceptable to ALL concerned?

Hmoob offer you friendship, they didn't tell you to smoke.

You appear to say that nothing that worked during the stone age works
during this "modern" age. Then we should stop all education, should
we not, since the highest of all learnings involves researching? RE-
SEARCH = to search again.

When all else fails, go back to the basics.

Thaum twg tau noj lawm mam li qhua qab qhua tsau mas.

Yog ua li nej piav mas peb pom lawm tias hajyam yuav muaj cov nyom.
The Hmong system is foolproof. Niam txiv txawm ruam thiab nkaus npau
li cas los luag tus coj tshoob yuav xyuas kom "koob mus yoj xov los
nyog". Ua li nej piav mas, ntsib tus ntse paub zam neeg ces nyaj nej
yuav ua dhau 1-2 rooj. Tabsis yog ntsib tus ruam es nws hais nws zaj
nkaus cees xwb ces ntshe nej hajyam yuav dhia los dhia ho tsiv los
tsiv thiaj li yuav dim au.

Born tuaj yuav koj tus ntxhais ces nws hu xovtooj thiab nrog koj tham
hauv SCH no xwb, tabsis txhob vam tias yog koj xav yuav yawg tus
ntxhais no koj cia li nrog yawg tham thaum yawg tuaj dhau kev pem nej
zos xwb ces tau lawm no nawb. Luag cov noob Kiab Toom ntawd luag yuav
tsis lam ua tej qaug qeb ntsuas li ntawd rau koj ib zaug.

Yog yoojyim npau li koj piav no thov muab koj 2 tug me ntxhais tej
contact info rau kuv es thaum twg yog kuv tham nkawv haum lawm no mam
li hu xovtooj qhia rau koj tus ua txiv paub os.

[fajkhaum]

Hmoob muaj ib txoj cai hais tias, yog koj ua koj yuav, koj tsi ua rau
leej twg yuav, no ces koj yuav ua li cas los tau. Tabsis yog koj tseem
yuav ua rau kwvtij neej tsa yuav thiab no ces yuav tsum tau taug Hmoob
tej kab kev qho me ntsis thiab nawb. Luag hais tias cai yog cai. Tus
neeg coj cai thiaj yuav paub nrog luag hais cai. Yog yus tsi yuav
Hmoob tej cai ces kuj mus ua li Meskas zaj xwb. Txog hnub yus tuag
los yeej tsi hu neej hu tsav tsi hu muam phauj yawg laus dablaug tuaj
nrog hlub li. Vim thaum pib yeej tsi tso qab hlua rau leej twg tuav.

[cwjmem]

Niag kwvtij hmoob no mas lam dag xwb nawb!!!

Yog nws ob tug ntxhais yuav txiv hnub twg mas nws tseem yuav hais tias
"kuv tus ntxhais no kawm ntawv siab heev, yog nej yuav mas nej yuav
thau them kuv li $10,000 thiab nrog cov nqe kawm ntawm uas kuv them
rau kev tus ntxhais mus kawm ntawm nawb, kuv tus ntxhais no mas NTSE
heev laiv, tseem yuav ua ua hauj lwm, khwv tau li 70-80 pav no los rau
nej tsev neeg, mas nej yuav tsum them xwb kuv thiaj yuav rog nej ua
tshoob nawb"

Tus hais li yawg kwvtijhmoob no hais mas nws twb cuab TUAM TXOB tos
nej lawm nawb, he he he he..txhob txav ze tsam mws laug TUAM TXOB los
ces nej cajdad tua kiag laiv....

Hmoob Mekas yog ua REVOLUTION los yog EVOLUTION, nad!!! Poj ua tseg
yawm ua cia tau muaj 5K xyoo no lawm es, nej txawm siv yuav muab tso
tseg kiag ntag...muaj peev xwm kev tsij ua mus nawb, he he he he..

On Sep 27, 12:29 pm, kwvtijhmoob <kwv...@aol.com> wrote:

[yoojyim]

Txawm yuav ua zaj twg los...tsis txhob ua ntevX nawb...vim ob tug
sibyuav majX mus honeymoon....cut the hmong craps...those wishing to
hold on to the hmong craps are morons

[kwvtijhmoob]

On Sep 27, 7:39 pm, fajkhaum <fajkh...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hmoob muaj ib txoj cai hais tias, yog koj ua koj yuav,  koj tsi ua rau
> leej twg yuav, no ces koj yuav ua li cas los tau. Tabsis yog koj tseem
> yuav ua rau kwvtij neej tsa yuav thiab no ces yuav tsum tau taug Hmoob
> tej kab kev qho me ntsis thiab nawb. Luag hais tias cai yog cai. Tus
> neeg coj cai thiaj yuav paub nrog luag hais cai.  Yog yus tsi yuav
> Hmoob tej cai ces kuj mus ua li Meskas zaj xwb.  Txog hnub yus tuag
> los yeej tsi hu neej hu tsav tsi hu muam phauj yawg laus dablaug tuaj

> nrog hlub li.  Vim thaum pib yeej tsi tso qab hlua rau leej twg tuav.- Hide quoted text -

fajkhaum & other-- in reality Hmong has no ethical/moral laws. Hmoob
cov cai es yog tib co dev npua cai xwb or you could say cai nraum pob
tw xwb. yog vim li cas thiaj hais li no. cia kuv mam li muab 2-3 qho
examples nram qab no rau nej saib ov.

1. Fi xov tsab luam yeeb – thaum koj tsab luam yeeb, yog koj tsab tsis
txhua los txhaum, koj ho tsab 1 tug luam yeeb xwb los txhaum, koj ho
tsis rho kiag 2 tug luam yeeb tawm cev kiag rau nws txais tes los
txhaum, koj ho muab 3-4 tug los txaum. Ua li cas los txaum tas..
Hmong has no standard/moral/ethical law. Hmoob cai yog dev npua cai
ces yog li no ntag los masFi xov muab Nyiaj pub – muab pub tsis txhua
los txaum, muab tsawg hwv los txhaum, muab ntau hwv los txaum. This
is dev npua cai – no ethical cai.
2. Pe – same thing. Yog koj pe tig tsis ncaj xwb los txhaum, koj pe
tsis txhua los txhaum, koj pe dhaum hwv lawm los txhaum. Pe li cas
los txhaum tas.. this is dev npua cai – no ethical cai.
3. Lub kaus thiab txoj siv ceeb – this is the most cause trouble for
the Mejkoob. Tus mejkooj tuaj sab nrauv tuaj mas khi txoj siv ceeb li
cas los yeej txhaum tas rau tus mejkoob hauv tsev. Thiab thaum nqa
lub kaus mus txog, coj mus tso qhov twg los txhaum tas, muab dai los
txhaum, muab khuam los txaum, muab tso rau saum rooj los txhaum, muab
txawb los txhaum. This is dev npua cai- no ethical cai.
4. Mejkoob – tus tuaj sab nrauv tuaj mas ua li cas los yeej txaum
tas. Txawm tus tuaj sab nrauv tuaj nws yog tus TEACHER kiag ho tus
nyob hauv tsev yog nws tus STUDENT xwb los tus tuaj sab nrauv tuaj
yeej ua txhaum tus sab hauv tas li xwb, yeej kawg tau thov txhua zaus
xwb. this is dev npua cai – no ethical cai.

These are just few examples.

hmong has no ethical/moral laws. Tej no hais los saum toj no thiab
tej qub pob caus (old and unrelated cases such as divorce and abuse
spouses) ces yog Hmong tsuas coj los ua thiab hais kom tau ib qho
excuse es thiaj zoo NPLUAS luag kom tau Nyiaj xwb. what a crap. this
is the biggest problem in Hmoob tshoob kos that Hmoob need to stop
practicing today.

[Yaj Tshaj Koob]

On Sep 27, 7:57 am, kwvtijhmoob <kwv...@aol.com> wrote:

Kwvtijhmoob,

Kuv nyeem koj cov lus mas koj hais tsi yog lus siv tsi tau, koj hais
li nram no tias..

> 1. Tseb luam yeeb - thaum ub vim cov txiv neej yeej haus luam yeeb
> yuav luag tas tus thiab vim luam yeeb is the only gift they could
> afford to give, tab sis niam no nws yog ib yam BAD IMAGE for our kids
> and for most of us adult. Yog li tsis need lawm.

Nyob rau hauv koj cov lus no twb hais tsi raug chua lawm, koj lo lus
tias qhov Hmoob tsab luam yeeb vim thaum ub Hmoob cov txiv neej yeej
haus luam yeeb yuav luag tas tus, los lus no yog dag lawm tsi tseeb,
txoj kev uas Hmoob tsab luam yeeb no mas vim tias luam yeeb yog ib lub
sam xeeb siab ntawm txoj kev qhib ncauj lug ntawm ob tog chiv cov lus
thiaj paub pib, tsi yog Hmoob nyiam hau luam yeeb li koj hais, Hmoob
peb sab neeg mas Hmoob xeeb zoo heev muaj qee lub zog mas yuav luag
nrhiav tsi tau kua luam yeeb coj los ua tshuaj, yog yuav hais mas nim
no Hmoob lub neej txoj kev haus luam yeeb huam vam loj tuaj coob tag
zog tsi hais tub thiab ntxhais puav leej nyiam haus luam yeeb yuav
luag tag tus li koj hais Hmoob txheej thaum ub lawm ntag, nyob hauv
keeb kwm Hmoob tej ntxhais tsi tau haus luam yeeb li tam sim no kuv
pom ntawm qhov muag. Ntshe yog nej sab Hmoob ho haus luam yeeb li koj
hais xwb.

> 3. tus kwvtij/tus coj tshoob coj kos tuaj txais lub xo - thaum ub mas
> vim lawv yuav tau muaj 1 tug tuaj ua pov thawj vim tsis muaj tej cai
> mainstream los overwrite it lawm.

Thaum ub tej laus coj mas yeej tsi yuav ib tug tuaj txais lub xo li
nim no Hmoob niaj hnub ua no, thaum ub lawv tuaj coj niam txiv ntxhais
lawm luag tsuas tuaj tsab kab yeeb qhuav fi lub xo rau niam txiv paub
tias kom niam txiv tsi txhob nrhiav nws tus ntxhais yog lawv coj mus
yuav lawm li no xwb, tom qab uas Hmoob tawg rog los nyob ua ke coob
coob thiab khiav tuaj rau thaib teb los rau tam sim rooj teb no Hmoob
coob coob tuaj sib sau ua ke koom zej koom zog tus zoo los muaj tus
phem los muaj thiaj yuav ib tus tuaj txais lub xo nrog paub tias ua li
lawv yuav tiag los yog yuav dag xwb, lub tseem ntsiab tiag ces yeej
tsi muaj tus thawj neeg tuaj txais lub xo li niaj hnub no li ntag ov.

>................Qhov tseeb yog underage marriage, tus tuaj txais lub

> xo no tseem yuav mag mus jail thiab.

Qhov uas tus tuaj txais lub xo no tseem yuav mag Jail ces vim yog yus
muab tsab ntse dhau hwv lawm xwb, vim tias nws nyob nws tsi paub plaub
niam txiv tau hu mus thov nws yam muaj txiaj ntsig tuaj ua pov thawj
tim khawv tias puas muaj tseeb los cuav, tsam ho yog ploj tuag mus rau
lwm txoj kev lawm li no thiaj xeeb tau muaj tej kev li Hmoob ua no.

> 4. Txoj siv ceeb - vim thaum ub Hmoob tej ris tsho yeej tsis muaj
> hnab ris hnab tsho ntim nyiaj ces nqa nyiaj mus fiv xov los tseem muab
> ua poob tom kev lawm thiab no ces lawv thiaj muab txoj siv ceeb coj
> los khi nqa mus thiaj tsis poob no xwb.

Qhov no los yog lus dag lawm, tsi yog Hmoob tsi muaj hnab rig hnab
tshos. Qhov Hmoob nqa txoj siv ceeb ntawm, vim tias txoj siv ceeb yog
ib lub cim ntawm ib tus ntxhais uas tau mus ciaj nyab qua ntxhais neeg
tias yog ib tus ntxhais tsi yog ib tus tub, txoj siv ceeb yuav taw
qhia tau tias koj tus ntxhais mus nyob muaj chaws lawm.

> 5. Mejkoob - thaum ub mas vim lawv hais zaj muaj haiv hais ces lawv
> thiaj siv mejkoob. tab sis rau kuv mas Mejkoob are the trouble maker
> xwb.

Cov lus koj hais no los kuj tsi tseeb thiab, Mejkoob yog ib tug tseem
ceeb uas yuav ciaj cuab ntseg yim rau tub ntxhais, luag hais tias haus
cawv khawm pib, noj nqaij khawm yim kom ruaj khov, Mejkkoob tsi yog
trouble maker li koj hais, tab si qhov yuav tau ua yog yuav tau muab
tus dej cawv txo kom yau li yau tau. Cov neeg ua mejkoob tsi meej pem
mas tsuas muaj tug puav thiaj lob cawv ua dog ua dig xwb feem ntau yog
cov meej pem li ntau.

> 6. Lub kaus - lub kaus mas kuv los yeej tsis tau paub qhov purpose
> thiab

Lub kaus mas koj hais raug ntau lawm, thaum ub mas neej dab ua neej
sib nphoo ntxuag, muaj dab tso hlob hlob liaj lwg lawv thiaj muab lub
kaus ua chaw roos nkauj nyab nraug vauv rov qab los tsev tsi pub kom
raug ab tsi rau nkawm txoj kev los ua ib lub neej.

> 7. Nus tij nus npaws los tsis need lawm
> 8. Phij laj niam tais ntsuab los tsis need lawm

Yog tias koj tsi ua dab tsi li lawm ces, koj zaj mas tseem muaj lus
hais ntau rau hauv thiab, seb koj puas ua li peb tus kwv tij Tsoos
Yeeb Yaj xwb las as, lawv tuaj yuav yawg tus ntxhais ces niam txiv tog
tub tsi muaj nyiaj txaus lawv yuav tsi tuaj ua tshoob, tus yauv hu
tuaj nrog tus ntxhais txiv Txoos Yeeb Yaj tham ces tus vauv hais tias
lawv tsi muaj nyiaj txaus tuaj ua rooj tshoob no ces Txoos Yeeb noog
hais tias yog li tam sim no nej muaj pes tsawg nyiaj, tus vauv teb
hais tias muaj $4000 dollars xwb, ces Txoos Yeeb hais tias muaj $4000
txhiab xwb los nqa tuaj tsi muaj lus dab tsi nej tsi tas tuaj ua
tshoob los tau, ces tus vauv cia li nqa $4000 txhiab nyaj mus rau
Txoos Yeeb li uas sawv daws yuav npua tua noj xwb ces tshoob kos tiav
tag li lawm xwb yeej tsi yuav leej twg tuaj ua tim khawv, tuaj sib fim
ua ke li, yog ua li koj hais mas tseem muaj lus ntau hais. Ua li
Txoos Yeeb zaj mas tseem yooj yim thiab qoos tshaj koj zaj lawm npaug.

YTK

[kwvtijhmoob]

On Sep 27, 4:48 pm, vimhlub <vimh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What is meaningless to you, has deep, essential meanings to me.
> What's simple and short for you, has no meaning, no significance
> whatsoever for me.

if hard, messing, and trouble ways are what you want, then let's be
it. i do my way, the easy, simple and no trouble way.

> For you, you can use the phone to ua tshoob and fi xov.  phone, internet chat, email, anything is ok as long as both the girl and the guy are happy with it and no mainstream laws broken. but don't you give my kids luam yeeb or you go to jail because it is a mainstream law broken for giving luam yeeb to minor. got that!

> And how do you come to the conclusion that "luam yeeb" constitutes a
> bad image?  

luam is not only a bad image, it is a killer (cause cancer). most
importantly, it is a law violation. giving luam yeeb to a minor is a
law violation... don't you get it?

> Luag cov noob Kiab Toom ntawd luag yuav
> tsis lam ua tej qaug qeb ntsuas li ntawd rau koj ib zaug.

tsis yog hais siab born, tab sis kuv cov dag laug npaws ces txawv yog
Kiab Toom Npliaj Yob Lauj cov tub or tsev neeg los mus ntag. cov nyob
lwm qhov mas kuv tsis paub, tab sis kuv cov dab laug npaws nyob St.
Paul ces kev cai hmoob yeej tsis paub hlo li lawm thiab qhov tseeb
lawv mas ntxub kev cai Hmoob tshaj ntxub quav. I deal with them
everyday.

> Yog yoojyim npau li koj piav no thov muab koj 2 tug me ntxhais tej
> contact info rau kuv es thaum twg yog kuv tham nkawv haum lawm no mam
> li hu xovtooj qhia rau koj tus ua txiv paub os.

kav tsij kom nej cov tub hu phone, internet chat, email tuaj rau kuv 2
tug ntxhais. tsis txhob tuaj thiab tsam tsis sib nyiam ces nkim roj
tsheb xwb. cia tham phone, email and internet chat yog sib nyiam lawm
ces ci li hu phone kom los tsev xwb sib yuav xwb, i do tshoob easy as
i said. i don't do, "nyuj phij cab, nees phij cuam like the old myth
that only said in words as a liar, but had never giving to anyone in
the past. but i will do, nyiaj phij cab tsheb phij cuam. this is
NKAS LAS TIS!

[Hmong-Lao]

On Sep 27, 1:15 pm, vimhlub <vimh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Phoojywg Vimhlub,
Kuv txhawb koj cov lus thiab. Koj yeej yog hais tau muaj qab txawb
muaj teg lawm lau! Thumb up for you!

Txhua yam uas Hmoob ua, nws yeej muaj lub paus rau lub ntsis, nws yeej
pib muaj qab xaus muaj hau. Ua li Hmoob ua thiaj li yog ua Tshoob
Hmoob tiag. Peb txawm mus nyob rau lub tebchaws twg, thiab txawm hais
lus txuam yuaj nrog haiv neeg twg lawm los yog peb ua tshoob, peb
tseem siv txoj siv ceeb, lub kaus, muaj mej koob, muaj niam txais
ntsuab, muaj phimlaj (phiblaj, phijlaj), muaj nustij nus npaws, muaj
cobtxheeb yajncos etc... ces yeej cia li paub hais tias peb tseem yog
Hmoob tib yam. It is a qunique Hmong culture.

PY Kwvtij,
Qhov koj proposed nws kuj zoo kawg lawm thiab, tabsis yog ua li Hmoob
niaj hnub ua no siv tsis tau ces ua li koj hais los nws yeej hajyam
siv tsis tau thiab. Yog yuav ua yoojyim ces txawm ua yoojyim kiag, cia
nkawv mus nyob nkawv ua ke, nkawv mam mus ua ntaub ntawv sib yuav tom
court xwb. Hnub twg nkawv muaj nyiaj nkawv mam ua nkawv rooj tshoob
raws li nkawv txoj kev ntshaw. Phooywg Born2 neb tsis txob lam tso cov
niam pojcuag thiab yawgcuas tuaj sib tham thiab sib tuav tes es ho
them ib teg nqi li mus yuav npua tua noj nawb, tsam menyuam khaws tau
neb txoj kev ua tshoob yoojyim no mus siv ces mag phoojywg Vimhlub,
Cwjmem, YTK, Yaweh thiab Hmong-Lao muab npluag nawb. Hahaha.....(JK)

Hos hais txog qhov tso tseg tsis txhob ua li Hmoob ua lawm. Koj cov
reasons zoo tsis txaus uas tsimnyog yuav tau hloov.

Cov phoojywg,
Kuv ho yuav hais txog lub kaus me me ntxiv. Nyob rau hauv Hmoob cov
zaj cov haiv mas yeej yuav tsum pib hais li no:
1. Yus nyob yus vaj yus tsev, tabsis niam txiv pojywm tuaj thov yus.
(tsis yog yus mus thab)
2. Lawv tua npua rau yus noj thiab muab dej muab cawv rau yus haus tag
mas mam tuaj. (Tsis yog lam cia li tuaj tom tej tog kev tuaj)
3. Niamtxiv pojyawm muab PUAV PHEEJ TSHOOB cob yus npab mas yus thiaj
tuaj. (Tsis yog lam tuaj cuav sim)

example (nqe 3):
Hmoob poj Hmoob yawm muab puav pheej cog lis nkaus rau laj tub sis yau
wb tej quas npab, wb tau wb niam nkauj kaus ua wb puav pheej, wb li
yoj kaus lis yeev kwv kaus li yiag coj nkauj nyab nraug vauv mus ntoj
kab.

Hmoob poj Hmoob yawm muab puav pheej cog lis nkaus rau laj tub sis yau
wb tej quav tes, wb tau wb niam nkauj kaus ua wb puavpheej, wb li yoj
kaus lis yeev kwv kaus li yiag coj nkauj nyab nraug vauv mus ntoj ke.
etc.....

Hos hais txog muab lub kaus thaiv dab thaiv tsov thiab khaws plig tub
plig ki tej mas nws yog neeg lub tswv yim txua ntxiv rau lawm xwb
(raws li ib tug xibfwb hais).

HL

[All4One]

GREAT TOPIC! Both sides have some validity in thier
arguments...However, I think what will happen in the near future is
that those who want to continues traditon can continue what they think
is right...as for those of us who perfer simplier way of doing things
would accept the changes. I, for one, find it difficult to follow the
hmong tradition, let alone understand the complexity stages involved
in a Hmong wedding. I agreed that certian things can be modified/
disposed of. A people who fail to "CHANGE" also fails to progress.

I fear that as we continue to live as minority in this country, our
children will adapt and adopt to mainstream's practices whether we
like it or not...changes are ineviditable. We can accept the changes
or we can stuck in 16th century's ways of doing things. It's an
individual choices. However, keep in MIND that NOT all will accept
everything AS IS.

Jim

[Born2beMhong]

Tijlaug YTK,

kuv xav mas kom peb txhob li koj yog kuv yog, koj hais ib zag kuv hais
ib zag. yog peb yuav tham li no xwb tiag mas--peb los yeej tham lus
ib yam li hmoob xwb laud. txawm yuav tham tag, tsawg tiam ntxiv los
peb yeej nrhiav tsi tau ib txoj haus kev thiab ib kev vammeej zoo rau
yus haivneeg hmoob li laud.

kuv mas kuv nyiam tham lus li nram no xwb:

> Kuv nyeem koj cov lus mas koj hais tsi yog lus siv tsi tau, koj hais
> li nram no tias..
>
> > 1.  Tseb luam yeeb - thaum ub vim cov txiv neej yeej haus luam yeeb
> > yuav luag tas tus thiab vim luam yeeb is the only gift they could
> > afford to give, tab sis niam no nws yog ib yam BAD IMAGE for our kids
> > and for most of us adult.  Yog li tsis need lawm.
>
> Nyob rau hauv koj cov lus no twb hais tsi raug chua lawm, koj lo lus
> tias qhov Hmoob tsab luam yeeb vim thaum ub Hmoob cov txiv neej yeej
> haus luam yeeb yuav luag tas tus, los lus no yog dag lawm tsi tseeb,
> txoj kev uas Hmoob tsab luam yeeb no mas vim tias luam yeeb yog ib lub
> sam xeeb siab ntawm txoj kev qhib ncauj lug ntawm ob tog chiv cov lus
> thiaj paub pib, tsi yog Hmoob nyiam hau luam yeeb li koj hais, Hmoob
> peb sab neeg mas Hmoob xeeb zoo heev muaj qee lub zog mas yuav luag
> nrhiav tsi tau kua luam yeeb coj los ua tshuaj, yog yuav hais mas nim
> no Hmoob lub neej txoj kev haus luam yeeb huam vam loj tuaj coob tag
> zog tsi hais tub thiab ntxhais puav leej nyiam haus luam yeeb yuav
> luag tag tus li koj hais Hmoob txheej thaum ub lawm ntag, nyob hauv
> keeb kwm Hmoob tej ntxhais tsi tau haus luam yeeb li tam sim no kuv
> pom ntawm qhov muag. Ntshe yog nej sab Hmoob ho haus luam yeeb li koj
> hais xwb.

****lub neej hmoob tsab luamyeeb no ne, lub sijhawm no puas tsimnyog
thiab feasible lawm-- qhov benifit yog dabtsi, yos peb ua? yog peb
tsi tsab luamyeeb lawm ned, yog benifit dabtsi thiab tsab luamyeeb ned
puas muaj ib qhov meaning rau lub sijhawm ua peb nyob no lawm? tos
kuv muab Thump Up rau Kwvtijhmoob mas kuv los muab ntsuam xyua li tej
neeg ua kom muaj txoj kev txoj kev taus thiab puas tximnyog siv lawm
aws.

1. koj muab ua twb zoo xav mas, lub sijhawm no...tej tub tej ntshais
mus kawm txawj kawm ntse lawm. cov coob ces lawv twb mus nyob lawv ua
ke niamtxiv txog niaj txog xyoo lawm. txawm nyob hauv zej haus zos
los, yog tias tus tub thiab tus ntxhais ntawd yeej yog girlfriend
thiab boyfriend ces nkawv yeej mus ua si txhua hnub txhua hmo ua ke
lawm...yog thaum nkawv twb over age lawm os. txawm under age los yeej
mus li lawm. yog li no, thaum sib yuav lawm--ces tuaj thoob xov los
tsi tag tsab luamyeeb lawm los yeej tau. niam no, cov tshoob zawj mas
yuav luag tsi muaj li lawm ntag...txawm yuav kom mus hais hauv vaj
tsev los tej tub tej ntxhais yeej kam kam lawm--lam ua rau lub ntse
lub muag lawm xwb.

vim xav li no, thiaj li xav tias...yog yuav muab txoj kom yoojyim
thiab ua kom zoo rau tej niam tej txiv xwb ces ua li Kwvtijhmoob hais
lawm xwb. tsi tag yuav niam ua nees dajduas tuaj Xauj li lawm no
nawb.

2. lub sijhawm noobneej thaum ub, cov khab (American-Indian) lawv twb
tsab luamyeeb tag mas thiaj li tham tau txoj kev tseemceeb thiab hais
lub ncauj lug. tiam 21st century no lawm, luag hais tias kev tab
luamyeeb no yog ib qhov image tsi zoo rau tej me tub me nyuam lawm--
luag twb tsi ua li pojrawvkab yawmrawvkev lawm ned. los luag yeej zoo
tau thiab yoojyim tau li laug cov neeg thiab... kom yus muab xav mus
deb deb thiab dav dav li no xwb.

3. yog tus tub yus ntxhais musyuav mabdawb mabdub ned, ib tug luamyeeb
twb tsi tau tuav--yus twb zoosiab ned. yog li, tej no yog yus ua los
tswj thiab zwm yus cov kwvtijhmoob xwb los cas? los yog yus saib saum
txoj cai tiag tiag, yog yus saib saum txoj cai tiag tiag mas...tus dub
tus dawb tus mab tus suav los yeej yuav tsum npuajteg ntautaws
ntaugleev saum txoj cai tiag tiag...mas thiaj li yog. hos yog, ua tsi
tau ntaugleev saum txoj cai tiag--yus tsua yog saib dej ua ntu, saib
neeg ua nplhu xwb tiag no ces peb yuav tsum tau thimxav thiab muab los
evaluate zoo zoo li no. tsimnyog txo los peb yuav tau muab txo kom
yaus tshaj no--thiaj li tsi txhaum tus ub tus no li peb niaj hnub pom
no....koj puas xav li?

> > 3.  tus kwvtij/tus coj tshoob coj kos tuaj txais lub xo - thaum ub mas
> > vim lawv yuav tau muaj 1 tug tuaj ua pov thawj vim tsis muaj tej cai
> > mainstream los overwrite it lawm.
>
> Thaum ub tej laus coj mas yeej tsi yuav ib tug tuaj txais lub xo li
> nim no Hmoob niaj hnub ua no, thaum ub lawv tuaj coj niam txiv ntxhais
> lawm luag tsuas tuaj tsab kab yeeb qhuav fi lub xo rau niam txiv paub
> tias kom niam txiv tsi txhob nrhiav nws tus ntxhais yog lawv coj mus
> yuav lawm li no xwb, tom qab uas Hmoob tawg rog los nyob ua ke coob
> coob thiab khiav tuaj rau thaib teb los rau tam sim rooj teb no Hmoob
> coob coob tuaj sib sau ua ke koom zej koom zog tus zoo los muaj tus
> phem los muaj thiaj yuav ib tus tuaj txais lub xo nrog paub tias ua li
> lawv yuav tiag los yog yuav dag xwb, lub tseem ntsiab tiag ces yeej
> tsi muaj tus thawj neeg tuaj txais lub xo li niaj hnub no li ntag ov.
>
> >................Qhov tseeb yog  underage marriage, tus tuaj txais lub
> > xo no tseem yuav mag mus jail thiab.
>
> Qhov uas tus tuaj txais lub xo no tseem yuav mag Jail ces vim yog yus
> muab tsab ntse dhau hwv lawm xwb, vim tias nws nyob nws tsi paub plaub
> niam txiv tau hu mus thov nws yam muaj txiaj ntsig tuaj ua pov thawj
> tim khawv tias puas muaj tseeb los cuav, tsam ho yog ploj tuag mus rau
> lwm txoj kev lawm li no thiaj xeeb tau muaj tej kev li Hmoob ua no.

****puas hnov tej Dr hais lus lawm, nyob luag ntuj xyoog luag txuj,
nyob luag teb xyoog luag ci. peb saib seb puas benefit rau qhov
situation, tias yog muaj tus tuaj txais thiab tsi muaj tus tuaj txais
lub xos ne...qhov different yog dabtsi thiab puas tseemceeb dabtsi
lawm.

1. qhov peb cov kwv yaus xav tias tsi tseemceeb lawm mas--vim tias,
txawm leej twg tuaj txais lub xov tag los. yog tias, tej tub tej
ntxhais tsi sibhaum thaum twg los yog hos plam mus rau hauv the law of
the land lawm los tsi muaj leej twg ua tau ib yam dabtsi. yog ua
ntau, tseem yuav raug mus Jail thiab--qhov thiaj li thov zam lub txim
rau tus tuaj txais luv xov thiab vim tias nyob rau rooj teb no--peb
lam ua li tej neeg tsi paubtab es lam ua ntawm ntug cub xwb. peb tej
txivneej yawg lus tsi khov kiag li lawm yog thaum plam plaws mus rau
saum txoj cai lawm. thaum peb muab los luj li no tag, peb thiaj li
xav tias...yog li ntawd, tsi tsim nyog yuav tau tus tuaj txais lub xov
lawm. yog yuav tham dabtsi ces hais rau niam txiv thiab hais kiag rau
tus cobphaj lawm xwb. txawm yuav poob rau ntawm hmoob los hajyam zoo,
tabsi hos muaj hnub twg poob mus rau saum txoj cai of the land lawm
los. yog nws tsevneeg nws mam li tswj nws no. es tej nyuag kev ua
qhua miv miv li no xwb, txhob muab rub ua hmab los khi ziastoj ziaspes
li hmoob ua lawm no xwb tiag.

> > 4.  Txoj siv ceeb -  vim thaum ub Hmoob tej ris tsho yeej tsis muaj
> > hnab ris hnab tsho ntim nyiaj ces nqa nyiaj mus fiv xov los tseem muab
> > ua poob tom kev lawm thiab no ces lawv thiaj muab txoj siv ceeb coj
> > los khi nqa mus thiaj tsis poob no xwb.
>
> Qhov no los yog lus dag lawm, tsi yog Hmoob tsi muaj hnab rig hnab
> tshos. Qhov Hmoob nqa txoj siv ceeb ntawm, vim tias txoj siv ceeb yog
> ib lub cim ntawm ib tus ntxhais uas tau mus ciaj nyab qua ntxhais neeg
> tias yog ib tus ntxhais tsi yog ib tus tub, txoj siv ceeb yuav taw
> qhia tau tias koj tus ntxhais mus nyob muaj chaws lawm.

****Txoj sivceeb: peb muab los ntsuam xyua tias, yog muab nyiaj khi
rau txoj sivceeb no--hos benefit thiab zoo npaum li cas rau nkawm
ntximtxiv ntawd lawm. yog tsi khi rau txoj sivceeb no, hos txhaum
qhov twg thiab tsi zoo dabtsi tau nkawm niamtxiv ntawd.

1. vim tias khis li cas los txhaum hmoob cai--yog li thaum no ned, koj
saib tag neeg ntiajteb no luag ua kev vammeej mus deb thiab siab tshaj
hmoob no ned. yog luag twb tsi muaj khi li ntawd los luag ua neej
xwsluag thiab zoo thiab txawj ntse tshaj tej nyuav kev cai miv miv li
no lawm. thaum no, koj muab xav los tias, yog tsi khi rau txoj
sivceeb los yeej tsi muaj teebmeem dabtsi tshwmsim. yog li ntawd,
puas tsim nyog siv lawm...

2. yog hos mus yuav tus mab tus suav ned, luag twb tsi fisxov, luag
twb tsi khi sivceeb, luag twb tsi tuaj ua zoo hais ib los los yog hauv
ib me pa dej los pas cawv. yus tsavneeg hmoob twb nyob luag ntxhi tsi
tag li los tej niam tej txiv ces twb zoosiab thiab nyob luag ntxhi
tias luag tej tub tej ntxhais tau ib tug nyob los vauv mab vauv suav
lawm xwb ned. tej no twb tsi txhaum leej twg thiab ua tsimtxom rau
leej twg ned. thaum koj muab xav deb deb thiab dav dav li no--koj
thiaj li tig tau rov los nrhiav tias...yog li, tsi ua ned puas txhau
thiab puas peb haivhmoob qhov twg rau lub sijhawm no lawm.

thaum no, kuv thiaj li agree nrog Kwvtijhmoob li nws cov lus hais sauv

lawm.


> > 5.  Mejkoob - thaum ub mas vim lawv hais zaj muaj haiv hais ces lawv
> > thiaj siv mejkoob.  tab sis rau kuv mas Mejkoob are the trouble maker
> > xwb.
>
> Cov lus koj hais no los kuj tsi tseeb thiab, Mejkoob yog ib tug tseem
> ceeb uas yuav ciaj cuab ntseg yim rau tub ntxhais, luag hais tias haus
> cawv khawm pib, noj nqaij khawm yim kom ruaj khov, Mejkkoob tsi yog
> trouble maker li koj hais, tab si qhov yuav tau ua yog yuav tau muab
> tus dej cawv txo kom yau li yau tau. Cov neeg ua mejkoob tsi meej pem
> mas tsuas muaj tug puav thiaj lob cawv ua dog ua dig xwb feem ntau yog
> cov meej pem li ntau.

1. tos kuv os tsi nyiam siv Mejkoob lawm--vim mejkoob ua laug lub
sijhawm xwb. li hais tag os, puas benefit peb ib yam dabtsi li lawm.
qhov tseeb ces yog tus tub tus ntxhais yog qhov tseeb, qhov zoo ces
yog pojcuag yawgcuag yog qhov zoo. tej ncauj lus ua cev mus cev los
es yuav qaub los qabzib puas noj los tsi noj no...lam muab ua dag
lubsijhawm. kev noj kawm haus los, muab ua laug lub sijhawm xwb...luav
yeej pw luav qabtsua dub, hlub yeej tso luag ncejpuabdub los sibrub
lawm. yus lawm ua li tojroob hauvpev tuaj lawm xwb--txawm peb noj ib
pluag mov kev zoosiab xwb los, lub neej yeej yog lub neej tsheej
lawm. tsi tag yuav tias tsi pub zaum khuamceg los yog khuamnpab...peb
lub qhov muag pom kev deb tshaj ntawd lawm--tej ntawd tsi tim dabtsi
lawm. lub neej yuav zoo thiab tsi zoo los yog ntawm ib tug neeg
sibyuav ntawd kawv txoj kev txawj kev ntshe thiab lubsiab los sibhlub
lawm xwb. yog tias, tsi sibhlub ces 2 hnub xwb nyias mus nyias lawm--
thaum lawv mus lawm...niam txiv los twb hais tsi tau tej me tub me
nyuam lawm. thaum koj muab xav dav dav li no, thiaj li hais tias tsi
tsimnyog yuav tej no tuaj ua chaw khuavsiab thiab khuav kev lawm.

li kuv hais os, ib cov mejkoob mas tseem yog kawm los sibtwv thiab
sibkheem seb leej twg ua tau ntev thiab ua tau ntau tshaj xwb--tsi yog
kawm los kos kom ib hnub hmoob lub neej zoo lawm zujzus. cov hlua
niam no, yog tseemkawm tau thiab mas tseem nyaum thiab coj nruj tshaj
tej laus lawm thiab. yog li no, thiaj li xav tias...tsi tsimnyog peb
muab tej no saib mus siab siab lawm--vim tsi muaj benefit dabtsi rau
peb lub society ua peb nyob no lawm.

qhov no, kuv thiaj li agree nrog Kwvtijhmoob tib yam nkaus.

> > 6.  Lub kaus - lub kaus mas kuv los yeej tsis tau paub qhov purpose
> > thiab
>
> Lub kaus mas koj hais raug ntau lawm, thaum ub mas neej dab ua neej
> sib nphoo ntxuag, muaj dab tso hlob hlob liaj lwg lawv thiaj muab lub
> kaus ua chaw roos nkauj nyab nraug vauv rov qab los tsev tsi pub kom
> raug ab tsi rau nkawm txoj kev los ua ib lub neej.
>
> > 7.  Nus tij nus npaws los tsis need lawm
> > 8.  Phij laj niam tais ntsuab los tsis need lawm
>

ntawm lub kaus los tib yam, qhov kuv tsi nkagsiab mas--cov kwvtij
hmoob mus Church lawm los tseem xav kom muaj lub Kaus thiab no mas tsi
paub li lawm. vim lub Kaus no yog kav tej me ntsuj mus hlauv, kav
nyiajtxiag thiab nyiajkub nrog me tub me nyuam cojmus rau nkaujnyab
thiab nraugvauv xwb. yog koj muab ua twb zoo xav rau lub sijhawm
nowadays ces it is very taboo dhau hwv lawm. vim yus muab xav thiab
evaluate mus deb li no, thiaj li xav tias--puas tseemceeb thiab
benefit rau qhov siv los tsi siv no lawm..thaum li no, thiaj li tig
rov los xav tiag....tsi muaj benefit dabtsi zoo, li txoj kev xav thiab
kev pom ua yus cov neeg ua tuaj pom lub neej rau 21st century no
lawm.

qhov no los yog muab xav mus debnpaum li no thiaj li agree nrog
Kwvtijhmoob nws cov ntsiab lus lawm thiab.

ntau lawm, mam li tham duas lwmzaus nawb....

Born

[kwvtijhmoob]

On Sep 28, 8:44 am, Yaj Tshaj Koob <mutant_l...@yahoo.com> wrote:

ytk-- the bottom line is hmoob cov story txog hmoob tej tshoob kos ces
koj nug 10 leej koj tau 10 zaj dab neeg sib txawv. no one knows the
real meaning for certain. 2 tug mejkoob kawm 1 tug kaws tawm los mus
ua mejkoob ua ke los ib tug yeej tseem ua txaum ib tug txhuas rooj.
this is the trouble in hmoob tshoob kos and why we need to stop
practicing them.

>Ua li
> Txoos Yeeb zaj mas tseem yooj yim thiab qoos tshaj koj zaj lawm npaug.

ua li koj tus kwvtij no thiab ua li kuv ua ces yeej txawv tsis ntau
kiag li. koj tus kwvtij mas tseem sau $4000. kuv mam kuv sau $0 xwb
nas.

[All4One]

[All4One]

> HL- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[kwvtijhmoob]

On Sep 28, 9:55 am, Hmong-Lao <Hmlao...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> PY Kwvtij,
> Qhov koj proposed nws kuj zoo kawg lawm thiab, tabsis yog ua li Hmoob
> niaj hnub ua no siv tsis tau ces ua li koj hais los nws yeej hajyam
> siv tsis tau thiab.

py hmong lao-- koj hais dab tsi li koj mas. niaj hnub niam no hmoob
twb ua 2-3 rooj lawm hos, txhua rooj yeej tsis muaj teeb meem li as.
yus twb tsis tau sim es sawm siv assume tias tsis work no es yuav ua
cas mas.

[vimhlub]

>A people who fail to "CHANGE" also fails to progress.

Jim,

If change is "progress" why do intellectuals do research (go back to
search for answer from the past). Why is "History" a required course
in every high school?

Without the past, there is no future. If we fail to understand the
past, we are doomed to repeat our errors. The reason there are so
many idiots in this world is because they have failed to know their
true history. In knowing history, one knows the greatness and glory
of one's ancestors. Most often, from that knowledge, one can aspire
to be great again. Many great generals nowadays still study Sun Tzu
and apply his principles to great effects in the battlefield. So, you
still believe the past has no value?

> I fear that as we continue to live as minority in this country, our
> children will adapt and adopt to mainstream's practices whether we
> like it or not...changes are ineviditable. We can accept the changes
> or we can stuck in 16th century's ways of doing things. It's an
> individual choices. However, keep in MIND that NOT all will accept
> everything AS IS.
>
> Jim

Why do you celebrate Christmas or Easter? Isn't that used to be a
minority belief? What makes you think the majority is right and the
minority is wrong? We see it every day that what we believe to be
right today will prove to be wrong tomorrow. What's a majority today
may be a minority tomorrow. Those who voted for Bush have decided to
vote Obama. Now, some who have voted Obama believes they will vote
for someone else. Hispanics used to be a minority in the US. Now,
they are becoming the majority.

Time is the true master of what is right and what is wrong. Hmong
practices have withstood the test of time. Before we refuse to
understand, we should realize that ignorance is not always bliss. It
can prove to be quite disastrous.

[kwvtijhmoob]

On Sep 28, 10:15 am, Born2beMhong <truelove_never...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> 3. yog tus tub yus ntxhais musyuav mabdawb mabdub ned, ib tug luamyeeb
> twb tsi tau tuav--yus twb zoosiab ned.  yog li, tej no yog yus ua los
> tswj thiab zwm yus cov kwvtijhmoob xwb los cas? los yog yus saib saum
> txoj cai tiag tiag, yog yus saib saum txoj cai tiag tiag mas...tus dub
> tus dawb tus mab tus suav los yeej yuav tsum npuajteg ntautaws
> ntaugleev saum txoj cai tiag tiag...mas thiaj li yog.

born-- good point. qhov kuv hais tias hmoob tsis muaj ethical/moral
cai ces yog qhov koj hais no ntag tiag. yog hmoob muaj ethical/moral
cai zoo li nej ib cov hais mas tus dub, tus dawb, tus hmoob, tus daj
los nej yuav tsum ua ib yam nkaus rau no mas thiaj yog cai ov. thaum
txog hmoob no ces nej yuav kom tau luam yeeb, siv ceeb, kaus, mejkoob,
etc.. xwb mas plaub thiaj tag. tab sis yog txog mekas lwm haiv neeg
no ces tsis muaj mejkoob, siv ceeb, tsis muaj kaus, tsis muaj pe, tsis
muaj luam yeeb los nej tsis complain ib los li. ua li no es nej hais
tias yog cai no lov.

[Ya]

In the recent past, kuv hais rau ib tus kwvtij tias, "Ua cas, peb tuaj
txog tebchaws no, sawvdaws twb ywg ywg tias muaj ib co mus church
lawm, peb kev pam tuag thiaj faib ua 2 txoj kev lawm...ES YOG NEJ UA
LI NO CES PEB YUAV MUAJ 3 PAB LAWM THIAB? 2 PAB XWB TEEBMEEM TWB TU
TSI TXAWJ TAG, UA CAS KOJ XAV UA PAB 3 THIAB MA? KOJ XAV LI CAS LAWM
MA (i was referring to the way how moob caubfab perform their funeral
rites)???"

kev tshoob los tibyam thiab cov npojyaig. Although it is true that
some rituals are not in the same tune per the present time anymore, it
is also sad to see that some of the proposals (for change) are also
very ridiculous. What's worse, these proposals emerged from people
who do not truly understand the significance of these many different
rituals. Similar to christians referring to "moob dabqhua" as "ntxwj
nyoog" because they do not understand hmoob dabqhua, it seems the
author of this original post does not truly understand the
significance of the items he listed. Just because one does not like
to drink, it does not mean drinking at mong weddings is not
appropriate. Just because "kum thawj (pe, kowtow)" seems backward, it
does not mean it is backward and needs to be changed...etc.

Nco ntsoov cov phoojywg, pe txawm nyob pem roob nram hav, los peb hnov
nruas nrov ces, peb paub tias yog muaj kev ploj kev tuag. Peb mus
ntsib tibneeg nqa kaus, nrog rau 3 more men and two women, ces peb
paub tias luag mus ua tshoob. peb pom hmoob pov khaub hnab ces pe
paub tias hmoob tsa hauv toj. Peb pom 2 kwtij xyuam lub lis, ces peb
paub tias yog nkawd pom niam pom txiv...txhais tau tias txog caij peb
ua tshoob, peb yuav tsum ua tshoob, hais lus tshoob, ua txheej txheem
tshoob. txog nteeg ploj ntees tuag, peb hais lug tuag, coj txheej
txheem tuag, etc.

Yog li no, peb mus yuav pojniam, yog muaj 1 tus "txiv nug" thiab vauv,
thiab another man, ES TSI COJ KAUS LI...qhov no yog txhais tau li
cas? QHOV NO CES TSI YOG MUS YUAV NKAUJ XWB...YOG MUS YUAV POJNRAUJ
OR POJNTSUAM XWB....or say yeej muaj 6 leej tiag, or 7 leej mus ua
tshoob, temsis tsi nqa kaus thiab tsi pom nkauj nyab...PEB YEEJ PAUB
TIAS YOG UA NIAMTSHOOB UA YOG UA TEEM TSHOOB LOJ.... in hmong culture,
everything has its meaning...tsi yog hmoob lam tau lam ua. yog tias
pom ib niag txiv neej, tuav ib lub phaj, and inside the phaj, there is
money, and 2 kho caw...and 2 lub paj...QHOV NO TXHAIS LI CAS? qhov no
yog txhais tias hais 4 hais ntug...xyuam phiaj (tsi yog xyuam lis).

To make a joke out of things like this (mong wedding) is the same
thing as to make joke out of the process of....say present day...court
proceedings. The process takes days/months/years...with separate
hearing for separate little issues...even the "plea" is totally
different from the "hearing" or the "trial." IF I WERE TO RIDICULE
SUCH A THING, I WOULD HAVE LOTS OF COMPLAINTS ABOUT THE COURT SYSTEM.
In everything we do, there is a process, no matter how ridiculous it
is, IT IS WHAT IT IS....consider a traditional american wedding, with
groom's family on one side, with bride's family on the other side,
with a pastor, and bride and groom....exchanging vows, with
ring....NOW, IF YOU IGNORE THIS, AND GO TO RENO, AND PAY 20 DOLLARS
FOR YOUR MARRIAGE LICENSE, IT IS STILL POSSIBLE...temsis hmoob call
this "sis puv tsiv"....yes, in either culture, they are married, but
was there was no wedding.

If i were to propose any change at all for mong wedding, it would be
"UA KOM TXAUS, UA NIAM TSHOOB NTAG...VIM LUB NEEJ MUAJ IB ZAUG
XWB..."

1. ib sab mauj 2 tus mejkoob ntag, nrog rau kavxim or txhiaj com,
tshwj kab...
2. muaj 7 lub yaj nco--pujlaug yawmlaug, niam ntxawm txiv ntxawm,
nujtij nug npawg, muaj phauj, txiv kwj yij, tais laus txiv laus...
3. muaj niam xa txiv xa and niam txais ntsuab txiv txais ntsuab
4. muaj ntov dej rau ncej ntxheb ncej ntxhoo
5. ua 2 pluag mov...ib pluag tom niam txiv ntxhais, ib pluag tom vauv
tsev ntag...AND I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT TXIJ TUB YUG OR TSO TUB YUG....
6. lots more....

[vimhlub]

Born,

Vim koj tham ntau heev, kuv yuav "paraphrase" xwb seb txhawb puas tau
koj kev nkag siab.

1. Cov tub cov ntxhais luag twb "ua" txaus lawm mas li ua tshoob ces
tsis tas ua nyuab nyuab?

Ua tsoob yog ua tsoob, ua tshoob yog ua tshoob. Hmoob kev ua tshoob
tsis tau nug txog kev tsoob. Hmoob tshoob kos tsis yog txis txij txis
nkawm xwb, YOG ti nruab ti ze. Yog hais kom sawv daws sib yeem ua
neej ua tsav. Hmong society is one based on mutual love and respect.
NOT selfish love and NO respect.

2. Luam yeeb -- it's a mere token of respect. "kwvtij" has
threatened jail for those who offers cigarrettes to children, BUT the
Constitution has guaranteed Freedom of Speech, Religion, and
Expression. Giving cigarettes to children with the intent that the
children smoke them is against the law. But giving cigarettes to
anyone with the knowledge that it is a mere gesture of showing respect
is not. Jailing one for practicing his belief is unconstitutional.
There is a law against shooting down the bald eagle, but American
Natives are exempt from such law because their religion requires eagle
feathers for their ceremonies.

3. Yog yuav Dawb, Dub, Mev... Ua li cas thiaj li tsis yuam kom ua li
Hmoob ua?

Yog tus Dawb, Dub, Mev paub tab ces luag yeej ua li Hmoob ua thaum
yuav Hmoob lawm. Cov niag tsis paub tab ho tsis ua li ntawd los peb
Hmoob tsis tau xam tias yog ua tshoob os... yog lawv kev sib "ua" li
koj hais xwb. Peb yeej tsis muaj ib qho txheej txheej tshoob nyob
hauv li nes. Yog vim li cas koj thiaj li xav tias yog ua tshoob no
mas?

4. Nyob luag ntuj yoog luag txuj?

Lub tebchaws no, "a man's home is his castle". Yog li ntawd, hauv koj
lub tsev, koj muaj cai ua li koj nyiam. Hauv koj lub tsev ces yog koj
lub ntuj. Thaum luag tuaj txog hauv koj tsev lawm, luag yuav tau ua
li koj nyiam. Yog luag tsis ua li koj nyiam txawm koj muab luag tua
los tas dawb.

5. Hmoob ua ruaj ruaj tabsis thaum plam mus rau saum luag cai lawm
ces tas dawb?

Refer to 4 above. Thaum luag tso rau yus hais, yus hais li cas yeej
yog cai. Thaum yus ho tso rau luag hais, ces luag hais li cas los yog
cai ib yam. A court does not have jurisdiction over what goes on in
your home. Likewise, you do not have jurisdiction over what goes on
in the court. These are exclusive powers. If a person submits to
you, then you have a say in their affairs. If a person submits to the
court, the court has the say.

Know the power and you'll set yourself free from being cornered by
"luag lub ntuj".

6. Mejkoob laug sijhawm?

Twb hais ntau zaum lawm. Mejkoob ensures that the process is correct
and smooth. How important is the marriage? All important processes
require careful steps. Have you ever waited in the emergency room?
How would you feel if the doctor just say, "oh, you're sick? Take a
Tylenol?" Likewise, how would you feel if on your wedding day, the
parents just say, "oh, you want to get married? Great, have a good
life."

Npawg,

Txawm xav deb npaum li cas los yog xav qhov yuam kev lawm ces, yeej
xav tsis tawm qhov tseeb. When you're lost, it does not matter if you
run, you'll still not get to the correct destination.

[Born2beMhong]

Ya,

li kuv hais os, cov hlua niam no--kawm tau mas tseem ua nyaum thiab
nruj tshaj tej laus lawm thiab....ces yog li koj cov lus tham ntag
mas...

Vimhlub,

yog yus tsi kho tej kev mivmiv li no--ces qhov twg los yeej hais tias
txhaum tagnrho. hos tej kev siv no los, sivtag los yeej tsi benefit
los ntxiv dabtsi ntxiv tuaj lawm. koj muab xav tias, seb puas benefit
rau txoj kev ua ntawd no xwb. yog tsi benefit dabtsi, ces yuav tsum
tau clear yus lub vaj lub tsev kom dus lug thiab txhob cias sw sw no
nawb mog.

ntau dhau lawm, thiab peb tseem yog hmoob ces tham yeej tsi muaj
reason lis--txawm yuav tham ntev npaum li cas los yeej tsi muaj ib
qhov chaw mus...thaum kawg, ces yeej yuav rov yog ib rab tes tsaj
txuj, ces txog koj thib koj yog tus Loj, txog kuv thib kuv yog tus Loj
xwb.

yog xav kom kuv join koj ces reason li kuv hais tuaj xwb, seb yog
benefit dabtsi...piv xam li tsab Luamyeeb--being respect....can we
hmong do better than that for being "respect"...

ua tsaug nawb,

Born

[phwvnyawm]

Kwvtij....aw,

Sub koj nim txheeb dab laug Lauj Yeeb thiab dab laug Lauj Ntxawg lawv
cov nyob hauv MN thiab los?

> Luag cov noob Kiab Toom ntawd luag yuav
> tsis lam ua tej qaug qeb ntsuas li ntawd rau koj ib zaug.


>tsis yog hais siab born, tab sis kuv cov dag laug npaws ces txawv yog
>Kiab Toom Npliaj Yob Lauj cov tub or tsev neeg los mus ntag. cov nyob
>lwm qhov mas kuv tsis paub, tab sis kuv cov dab laug npaws nyob St.
>Paul ces kev cai hmoob yeej tsis paub hlo li lawm thiab qhov tseeb
>lawv mas ntxub kev cai Hmoob tshaj ntxub quav. I deal with them
>everyday.

Koj Hmong Lao,yij Vimhlub thiab Born nej cia li tuaj nrog kuv hau BIAS
xwb las as,yus yog ib tsev neeg naj.....es pheej yuav sib cav tus dab
tsi.

Yij Vimhlub neb 2 leeg yeej hais yog tas tib si.........Hmoob ces
txawm yog coj kiag li neb hais ntag thiaj tsis muaj ib hnub yuav hais
haum.

Lwm zaus koj tuaj Fresno kuv mam coj koj wb mus nrog Vimhlub haus BIAS
thiab noj Fawm.Yog kuv tuaj rau pem nej ko koj mam coj kuv mus nrog
Hmong Lao thiab Born nkawv hau pepsi thiab haus kuv txiv Nom Khwb hwv
me cawv cub.

Tshoob kos ces yog kuv tseem piav thiab ces ntshai yuav hais 3 hnub 3
hmo tsis tag ces txhob hais dab tsi.....kuv yuav coj kiag li kuv nyiam
xwb.Mus txog luag, luag ho coj khnaus-s los kawg yoog luag.......yus
yuav luag ib tug ncej neeg diam ces kav liam.

[All4One]

Vim,

you, me, and others can sit behind our screens and yack about all the
"goods/the bads" of hmoong wedding, but keep in mind that what's not
being accepted can not be enforced and what cannot be enforced, cannot
be accepted. There are really 2 options here...either we maintian the
status quo or we make modiifcations that work for all of us. If we
don;t find a common ground to sort it out....we won't be the last
group to sort it. Our children and thier children will have to sort it
out...now or later. I beleive that it is due for our generation to
really examine our culture from the 21st century mentality with
respect to tradition.

What needs to happen is people with extensive knowledge of hmong
wedding procedures should put forth some series of questions and
debate on it. I won't sit here and listen to people who think
everything about Hmoob culture is PERFECT!

Jim

[Ya]

On personal preference...I do want to keep everything. however, if i
have to pick something to leave out, it would be cov noj nco primarily
because vauv/ntxhais tsi thuv cov noj nco lawm tiag. First sign of
disaster and off to the police, forgetting that cov yaj nco were
summoned to look after the bride/groom and/or for bride/groom to get
advice/counsel from. We should leave this out not because it is
meaningless; but rather, no bride/groom cares about them anymore.
However, not all bride/groom are like this, some still ntoj and thuv
cov qhua ntawd, so it is a hard decision.

The second thing i would take out is the bride price, and if it were
up to me, i would not sau nqis, temsis ua kwvtij nyob, it is not up to
individual decision, primarily because mong weddings is not revolved
around bride/groom, but around every member of both clans. This is
why i call my brother's niamtais yawmtxiv "mother/father." This is
why peb thiaj mauj tus lav tshoob lav kos. This is why pe thiaj pe
"everyone" within the close family of the bride's original family.
however, even though i would not sau nqi, a "cow" will be given to the
bride/groom to bind the two families through life and death. For
those who do not want to summon "cuag, niam dablaug, xov txiv dab"
upon death of either/both spouses...PLEASE DO NOT ACCEPT NYUJ PHIJ
TSAB NEEG PHIJ CUAM (LUB NCAUJ TSIAG), BECAUSE YOU ARE LYING YOUR ASS
OFF BY SAYING "THANK YOU UA TSAUG TSAUG.." Acceptance of lub ncauj
tsiag implies that you will call neejtsa tuaj tua nyuj upon
death....AND THIS MESSAGE IS FOR lha JUST IN CASE HE IS TOO BACKWARD
TO KNOW THE SMYBOLIC MEANING OF SUCH A RITUAL.

Again, it seems to me like those who wants to change are applying
reasoning based on "outside" factors, rather than "inside" factors.
If you look and change from within, it will not harm
anything...example...rather than "laig dab tshoob" thaum noj su rau
xeeb teb xeeb chaw, why not thov vajtswv instead? Instead of laig dab
rooj dab tse upon entering a mong house prior to negotiating bride
price, why not "laiv vajtswv?" This is changing for the "better" for
those who are christains, and changing from within, rather than apply
an absurd outside reasoning such as "yog dab lawm ces peb tsi laig."
If you apply outside factors, then here is an example of
stupidity...getting rid of the umbrella, but only to be replaced with
a ring---both are just as ridiculous, but those who prefers the ring
will argue that it is "a symbol of eternal love." CRAP!!!! The
umbrella is also a symbol of the eternal shelter of bride/groom.

Before anyone one of you starts ridding mong rituals, make sure you
know what you are doing. I have been to too many weddings where ib
cov niag hmoob xuab hais tias "peb yeej ua li no," especially tseem
yog tog vauv thiab. Crap if I were to be like them, ces pom luag
pojniam zoo nkauj ces mus hais kiag xwb...vim tias "peb yeej coj li no
es.." Do you see the problem of such saying? Yog tias peb yauv hloov
per the original post, ces tsi ntev haj yam muaj teebmeem, primarily
because we are not abiding by the cullture, but rather by individual
preferences...

Neej

[Born2beMhong]

On Sep 28, 9:17 am, kwvtijhmoob <kwv...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > Luag cov noob Kiab Toom ntawd luag yuav
> > tsis lam ua tej qaug qeb ntsuas li ntawd rau koj ib zaug.
>
> tsis yog hais siab born, tab sis kuv cov dag laug npaws ces txawv yog
> Kiab Toom Npliaj Yob Lauj cov tub or tsev neeg los mus ntag.  cov nyob
> lwm qhov mas kuv tsis paub, tab sis kuv cov dab laug npaws nyob St.
> Paul ces kev cai hmoob yeej tsis paub hlo li lawm thiab qhov tseeb
> lawv mas ntxub kev cai Hmoob tshaj ntxub quav.  I deal with them
> everyday.

Kwvtijhmoob thiab Vimhlub,

ua li cas neb yuav sib txheeb tag npaum li no es ib leeg pheej tseem
mus hais cuag li nyias nyob lawm nyias ib sab ntuj nas yuav. li
phwvnyawm hais os, yog Kwvtijhmoob cov dablaug npaws tseem yog
Kiabtoom Npliajyob cov noob, hos Vimhlub yog Soobntxawm cov Noob thiab
xwb......LOLz@Phwvnyawm.

Ntshe hos yog li no tiag, ces ib leeg hais los ib leeg pheej tsi lees
ua zoo sibtham thiab sib koom ib txoj kev zoo taug li laud. ntshe yuav
ua ua kom ciajcaub kiag es txivtub los tsi sibhaum li laud....

Phwvnyawm, yog kuv tau tuaj txog nram koj ces kuv me Npawg Vimhlub
thiab koj ces yeej mas Bias tseeb tseeb, tsi li los kuv tseem yuav kom
Vajncuab, Dony thiab npawg George Vue tuaj kom thiaj li muaj ceem
sibtham thiab....LOL@Vimhlub & npawg George Vue.

kuv saib ces ntshe yuav yog li koj ua tij hais lawm--peb hmoob tham
lus, lawv tsi kam kom muaj reason from step to step li...yog li ntawd
ces yog li koj ua tij hais lawm txawm yuav tham 3 hnub 3 hmo los yeej
tsi tag--thiab yeej tsi muaj chaw txawb chaw rau li ntag.

ua tsaug nawb, zoo li kuv yuav nce mus pem MN...yuav mus pom txiv
ntxawm Wathai lawv cov qhabnab tsoos Bias nyhav nyhav ntawd ntag
laid....

Born

[vimhlub]

Npawg Born thiab Dablaug Phwv,

Peb sib txheeb tag npaum li no los twb vim yog Hmoob tshoob kos los
mas. Peb ces vim noj nce sij yuav taug cav ces thiaj li sib txheeb li
no ntag. Vim peb cuam tshuam ntawm Hmoob tshoob kos lawm es peb thiaj
li sij taug xov txog niaj hnub no. Ib leeg txawm nyob ib sab ntuj los
yuav tau sib lees, sib hlub vim koj qaib pw kuv cooj, kuv os pw koj
nkuaj lawm. Yog peb tsuas tau noj ib pluag mov ua ke los lawm xwb es
tsis tau ua tshoob ces txawm niaj hnub no nej neeg nyob hauv kuv tsev
lawm los kuv yeej tsis lam hu nej ua npawg thiab dablaug kiag li os...
tsuas hu tus txheeb txheeb kiag ntawm xub ntiag xwb. Tabsis vim tau
pe lees lawm hais tias yuav nco ntsoov nej no ces thaum ciaj los yuav
tau lees paub, txawm tuag lawm los tseem yuav tau lees hu nej thiab
ov.

Kav tsij tuaj peb haus npias os.

[Yaj Tshaj Koob]

Kwv Ya,

Koj hais yog lawm nawb.

> Nco ntsoov cov phoojywg, pe txawm nyob pem roob nram hav, los peb hnov
> nruas nrov ces, peb paub tias yog muaj kev ploj kev tuag. Peb mus
> ntsib tibneeg nqa kaus, nrog rau 3 more men and two women, ces peb
> paub tias luag mus ua tshoob. peb pom hmoob pov khaub hnab ces pe
> paub tias hmoob tsa hauv toj. Peb pom 2 kwtij xyuam lub lis, ces peb
> paub tias yog nkawd pom niam pom txiv...txhais tau tias txog caij peb
> ua tshoob, peb yuav tsum ua tshoob, hais lus tshoob, ua txheej txheem
> tshoob. txog nteeg ploj ntees tuag, peb hais lug tuag, coj txheej
> txheem tuag, etc.

Tshoob kos ib rab teb ib tsa txuj, tab si tsuas yog txawj tej txheej
txheem me ntsis xwb feem ntau sawv daws ua yuav luag ib xws. li uas
kwv Phwvnyawm hais uas yog yuav tham mas tham tsi paub tag vim ntau
dhau tsi muaj caij nyoog sau lub paus mus xaus lub ntsis li ntawd
thiaj piav tus ncab tus ncua.

YTK

[Yaj Tshaj Koob]

On Sep 28, 9:55 am, Hmong-Lao <Hmlao...@hotmail.com> wrote:

PY Hmong_Lao,

Yog yuav ua yooj yim tiag tiag ces yog li koj cov lus hauv qab no mas
thiaj yog yooj yim rau nkawm ob tus tub ntxhais li sawv daws tau sib
cam los no.

> PY Kwvtij,
> Qhov koj proposed nws kuj zoo kawg lawm thiab, tabsis yog ua li Hmoob
> niaj hnub ua no siv tsis tau ces ua li koj hais los nws yeej hajyam
> siv tsis tau thiab. Yog yuav ua yoojyim ces txawm ua yoojyim kiag, cia
> nkawv mus nyob nkawv ua ke, nkawv mam mus ua ntaub ntawv sib yuav tom
> court xwb. Hnub twg nkawv muaj nyiaj nkawv mam ua nkawv rooj tshoob
> raws li nkawv txoj kev ntshaw.

Thaum Hmoob ua tau li koj cov lus no lawm ces tsi muaj lus cov nyom
rau niam txiv ob tog li lawm ntag.


YTK

[kwvtijhmoob]

On Sep 28, 2:33 pm, phwvnyawm <phwvnya...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Tshoob kos ces yog kuv tseem piav thiab ces ntshai yuav hais 3 hnub 3
> hmo tsis tag ces txhob hais dab tsi.....

phwvnyawm-- true li koj hais tiag mas. tshoob kos is a complex and
long system. that is why i proposed to make it simple and short.

>kuv yuav coj kiag li kuv nyiam
> xwb.Mus txog luag, luag ho coj khnaus-s los kawg yoog luag.......yus
> yuav luag ib tug ncej neeg diam ces kav liam.

thaum koj pom nab tav kev ces kav tsij dam qws ntaus nab kom khiav zam
kev, tsis txhob cia tos kom nab twb tom koj lawm ces lig rau koj lawm
mog me phooj ywg.

hais txog txheeb ze kiab toom cov tub ces yuav tsis tham ntxiv lawm
tsam nej ho hle tau nab kaj lawm haj..haj..haj... tab sis lam qhia me
me rau koj tias kuv txheeb tus ua muaj ib tug tub npe hu ua "Soob
Ntxawm" no los mas. tus no mas ua neeb thiab hu plig xwb los tseem
kom yus mus pab tiam tus txiv neeb thiab tiam tus txiv hu plig tib si
vim nws twb tsis paub tiam tej yooj yooj yim no lawm nav.

[Yaj Tshaj Koob]

On Sep 28, 10:15 am, Born2beMhong <truelove_never...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Kwv Born2bH,

Koj xav ne yog tias peb tsev xeem Yaj muaj ib tus ntxhais mus yuav
txiv thaum lawv rov tuaj ua tshoob lawv tsab yeeb rau txhua tus tib
si, tseg koj ib leeg lawv tsi tsab luam yeeb rau koj no koj yuav xav
li cas, yus puas txaj qhov muag rau cuab kwv tij uas tuaj ua ke rau
Hnub ntawd thiab.

Yog tsi muaj mejkoob, phijlaj, nrisnra, niam txais ntsuab lawm no lub
rooj tshoob puas zoo nkauj thiab puas phim rau txoj kev sib yuav tias
yus yog ib tsav neeg hais lus txawv neeg ntiaj teb thiab kuj muaj kev
dab kev qhua txawv dua lwm haiv neeg uas yus tsi yog neeg ncau ntiaj
teb haiv twg los.

Yog cia ob tus niam txiv los muab nkawd txis tshoob ua niam txiv xwb
no puas zoo hais lus puas tshawv txheej thiab, tsam zoo koj hais tab
sis tsiv kuv mloog los muaj, hais lus li muab tej qaib npua pub rau
lwm tus coj mus yeej noob xwb no puas zoo nkauj txaus ntseeg thiab,
tsam tsis nkawd ua neej hnub tsi ntev hmo tsi ntau ho muaj teeb meem
los sis ho muaj teeb meem tam sim uas tseem sib tham tsam hais mus
hais los ob tus yawg cuag ho xeeb plaub ne leej twg cheem leej twg ho
yog tus daws nkawd cov plaub thiab.

> 1. vim tias khis li cas los txhaum hmoob cai--yog li thaum no ned, koj
> saib tag neeg ntiajteb no luag ua kev vammeej mus deb thiab siab tshaj
> hmoob no ned. yog luag twb tsi muaj khi li ntawd los luag ua neej
> xwsluag thiab zoo thiab txawj ntse tshaj tej nyuav kev cai miv miv li
> no lawm. thaum no, koj muab xav los tias, yog tsi khi rau txoj
> sivceeb los yeej tsi muaj teebmeem dabtsi tshwmsim. yog li ntawd,
> puas tsim nyog siv lawm...

Kev vam meej kev txawj ntse ntawm neeg ntiaj teb ntawd tsi yog los
ntawm tej kev sib yuav ua tshoob kos, kev vam meej txawj ntse yog los
ntawd txoj kev kawm txuj ci, neeg ntiaj teb nyias muaj nyias dab nyias
qhua nyias muaj nyias xwv feej nom xwv feej tswv ua ov, yuav tsi cuam
tshuam rau tshoob kos li peb tham no.

> 1. tos kuv os tsi nyiam siv Mejkoob lawm--vim mejkoob ua laug lub
> sijhawm xwb.

Twb yog laug sij hawm npaum li ntawd los tseem muaj coob leej ciav lim
luag tej ntxhais tsi hlub tseem hnov qab lub caij mus ua tshoob tag
tib si, yog tias tseem pub dawb sib hais li muaj tsiaj pub lwm tus mas
ntshe haj yam muaj kev sib nrauj kev cov nyom ntau vim tau dawb xwb
tsi muaj nuj nqis rau tus yuav hlo li, thaum twg sib ceg ces yeej hais
tias koj yuav khiav mus rooj teb twg los tau kuv cav tsi tau thov los
pe koj, kuv cav tsi poob ib npib los ib sus los ua pov thawj tias kuv
yuav koj, koj tsuas nros nyog koj xav xav yuav kuv koj kav tsij tawm
mus sai sai tej lus no yuav tsum muaj xwb xwb thiaj tag.

> 2. yog hos mus yuav tus mab tus suav ned, luag twb tsi fisxov, luag
> twb tsi khi sivceeb, luag twb tsi tuaj ua zoo hais ib los los yog hauv
> ib me pa dej los pas cawv. yus tsavneeg hmoob twb nyob luag ntxhi tsi
> tag li los tej niam tej txiv ces twb zoosiab thiab nyob luag ntxhi
> tias luag tej tub tej ntxhais tau ib tug nyob los vauv mab vauv suav
> lawm xwb ned. tej no twb tsi txhaum leej twg thiab ua tsimtxom rau
> leej twg ned. thaum koj muab xav deb deb thiab dav dav li no--koj
> thiaj li tig tau rov los nrhiav tias...yog li, tsi ua ned puas txhau
> thiab puas peb haivhmoob qhov twg rau lub sijhawm no lawm.

Ib tus ntxhais twg mus yuav Dub Dawb, Mab Suav, lawv tsi tuaj fi xov
los kav liam vim lawv yog lwm yam neeg lawm ntaus nqi tias tus ntxhais
mus yuav lawv ntawd tuag lawm, nws mus ua lwm yam neeg txawv Hmoob
tsi hais Hmoob lus tsi noj Hmoob mov tsi yog Hmoob tsev neeg li roj
ntshav tab txawm tsi tuaj ua tshoob tsi them nyiaj los tsi xam rau
hauv vim lawv tsi pom txog yus dab qhuas. Tab sis yog tias mus yuav
cov neeg tsim txiaj tsi yog neeg nyob qab choj thov khawv noj ces lawv
yeej tuaj ua tshoob rau Hmoob, cov uas tuaj them nyiaj raws li Hmoob
txoj kev sib yuav tab sis tsi ua tshoob los kuj muaj coob tus, cov uas
tuaj ua tshoob pe niam pe txiv li Hmoob kev cai los kuj muaj coob
thiab, cov yuav dawb feem ntau yog neeg thov khawv noj xwb. Tab txawm
khis thiab tsi khis los nyaj yuav tsi txhaum dab tsi


YTK

[Mouatony]

kwv B2BH,


Xob siv caij nyoog ntau ntau thaam tej tsi muaj qaab muaj hau nuav vim
85% Moob tseem xaav nyob lub neej primitive and tribal sociaty. Cas
Moob nyob Moob es ua le Dr. SY has lub neej tom ntej nuav ce Moob cov
tub txawj ntxhais ntse yuav tsi kaam yuav Moob lawm. Yog peb tseem
nyob Longcheng hab Samthong ce yeej yog le ntau leej has tabsi thaum
peb tuaj nyob tsua lub tebchaw tshab kws TIME IS MONEY nuas ce peb
yuav tau pauv. Cas cov nyuas tseem nyam nyam hau dlej hau caw yijmeem
ua es muaj nub nyob lob lawm xwb s/d txhaj pauv tau, tsi le ntawd koj
los kuv has ntau tseem taub qaug puab hab.

Kuv naj nub xaav tas kom Moob moog apply nrug kwvtij KHAB nyob es
txhaj FUN heev vim dlej caw yog ib qhov Moob nyam.

MT

[Hmong-Lao]

PY MT, Born2, Kwvtij and Jim,
Kuv yeej nkag sia hais tias TIME IS MONEY. Tabsis time yog niamtxiv
tog ntxhais ua tus propose los sav. Nws muaj cai set rau ub sijhawm
uas nws khoom, hos tog tub los yeej muaj cai re-propose yog lawv tsis
khoom lub caij niamtxiv tog ntxhais teem tseg. Usually, tshoob kos
yeej yog ua rau hnub uas sawvdaws so laj so kam lawm xwb los sad. Hnub
ntawd, yog tsis mus noj tshoob ces mus tua nas thiab nuv ntsev xwb
ne!

Hais txog qhov time consume: Niamtxiv tog ntxhais ua sai ces sai, ua
qeeb ces ntev, ua nyuab ces khuam wb. Yog li ntawd, nws tsis yog tim
muaj mej koob, muaj phijlaj, niam txais ntsuab, muaj kaus, muaj siv
ceeb and so on. Niaj hnub no peb hais tshoob mas yeej tsis ntev li
lawm ne, rooj ntev los siv 2 hours, rooj sai ces 1 hour lawm xwb. Yog
cov tsis yuav raws tus txhooj mas yeej tseem ntev kawg tiag nawb. Cov
uas ua raws tus txhooj lawm ces qhov ntev ntev ces yog niam txiv tseem
yuav kom tos noj hmo tso no xwb. Lossis muaj qee zaum yog vauv pheej
tuaj tsis txawj txog no xwb. Tabsis tej no peb yeej arrange rau tau
dhos lub sisjhawm.

HL

[Ya]

HL...

vim yog li koj hais, kuv thiaj tias zoo li cov uas xij tias "hloov
hloov" are doing it for the wrong reason, zoo li lawd tsi pom qhov
bigger picture sub.

[Zoo]

The Hmong District of C&MA already discarded the kaus, luamyeeb, pe
among their fellow members.

They make a move in the direction you proposed. You just follow them,
need not propose anything for now. Once that step is firmly
established then we can make the next.