"The Last Name" --If the Lo can married the Lor, the Lee can married the Ly
qabntujntsa
last,e.g the Lo would married the Lor. But constantly, I have witness
some people with the same last name but spell differently that are
dating. And when I ask that couple that they cannot date and/or
married, and that couple tells me that since they have different last
name they can date. I therefore cannot force them to not date because
they have different last name, e.g the song and the xiong.
Don't you think that twenty five years from now, a Lo will likely to
married a Lor. A Lee will eventually married a Ly, althought there is
a says that, "same last name cannot married their clan," but there is
also a say that, "the Lee and the Ly are not the same last name and
therefore they can interact and intermarried one another."
qabntujntsa
Cheng Thao
A friend of mine once suggested that he change
his last name to tree or ntoo which would allows
him to date/marry any girl including those from
his clan. He was just being funny but really he
said it because he has seen people doing it.
Lor, lo, low, lao, loa should just be spelled Lauj
and that should have solved the English spelling
ambiguity. Besides I think it would be pronounced
more accurate.
Tsujsua Dluag
and i have seem same last name people getting married...and i have
heard of same people of same clan having sex all the time...
my guess is...yog peb hmoob tsi muab lub xeem los saib muaj nqi ces...
in the future..we will see these things more "openly"....and there is
nothing anyone can do about it...
yaweh
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Tony
hlub mas kawm txujci tau sai hab ntse heev. Huas tug miv nyuas kws
noj nam mig hlub ces kawm txujci qeeb hab tsi tshuam ntse. Tom qaab
ntawd tug miv nyuas kws noj twm mig hlub tau lub npe xyaav has tas
"noj twg mig hlub ces yog twm tub."
Tej miv nyuas luj hlub nyob tebchaws nuav tawv ncauj, nam txiv has tsi
tau lawm, vim yog puab noj mig nyuj hlub ces puab zoo le tej nam nyuj
lawm xwb. Tub ntxhais tuab lub xeem xwb los cas sis thaam sis yuav le
lawm, tsi paub has tej laus tsis pub sis yuav yog le caag tag. Tej
lau has tsis tau hab txaaj qhov muag hwv lawm ces txhaj le has tas,
"tej hluas nuav ces tsuas paub qhov zoo nyob xwb, tsi paub has yuav
tsi tau...txug twg nce twg le tej nam tsaj lawm xwb."
Nwg tsi yog ib qhov tshab, tej laug yeej muaj lawm hab..."vaj vov vaj
pam me nyuam thiaj pham." Xeem xyooj, xeem thoj ntxiv ntxiv moog los
yeej zoo tuab yaam.
Yog zoo le ntawd lawm, tej laug puag chim? Puab chim heev mas. Tej
laug ua puas tau dlaabtsi? Puab kawg cas tug tub hab tug ntxhais
ntawd sis yuav xwb. Tej laug puas muaj lub ntsej tawm rooj moog rua
saab rau? Puab yeej tsi xaav has txug tug tub tug ntxhais ntawd lub
neej le. Nkawm txwj nkawm ntawd puas muaj lub ntsej muag tawm rooj
moog ua qhua? Yog xaav rua moob lub neej ces tawm tsi tau moog rua
qhov twg le. Yog xaav rua yug ob nam txiv xwb es "tsi khe" txug moob
lub neej, nwg tsi txob yug tawv le.
Nyob luag ntuj yoog luag txuj, nyob luag teb yoog luag ci, kev vaam
meej tso tsaav plhuav, leej twg yuav ua le caag los yeej tau.
Zoo los tsi zoo? Nyob ntawm koj hab lub caij nyoog ntawd xwb.
Tony,
"Tsujsua Dluag" <ya...@iamyours.com> wrote in message news:<9fd9b478e5f69fd75b9...@mygate.mailgate.org>...
IbVuag
which is that it's arbitrary, never absolute. Times change, people
change. What's wrong with two men loving each other or two women?
What's right about a man loving a woman? What's right or wrong with a
Hmong Lauj wanting to love another Hmong Lauj sexually or as a husband
or wife? Nothing, only except what society says. It may be wrong for
you in the past, but it ain't today. Who's to say what's moral and
immoral, what's better than what, or who's better than who. These are
arbitrary things. As long as we don't hurt someone else, ourselve, or
break the law with our decision, things should only be limited to our
imagination.
Personally I think its fine if two Hmong people with the same last
name want to engage in relationship as long as it is a proper one. In
other words, as long as they are not directly related, like sister and
brother, brother and brother, sister and sister, father and daughter,
etc. It is quite absurd that my children can marry my sister's
children in the Hmong culture, but my children cannot marry someone
else with the same last name eventhough they are as unrelated as
strangers. Furthermore, plenty of other groups of people married
others with the same last name as their own, there is nothing wrong
with that.
avan...@yahoo.com (Tony) wrote in message news:<c6a153d2.04032...@posting.google.com>...
khejdub perdou
yuav. Nyob thaum ntuj tsim teb raug, tswv ntuj tsuas tsim tau ib tug
poj ib tug yawm xwb. Nkawv sib yuav thiab muaj me nyuam coob. Tej me
nyuam lawv rov sib yuav thiaj muaj neeg coob puv ntuj zoo li peb no.
Yav thaum ub, muag nug los yeej sib yuav. Tab txawm tiam no los qee
tsev neeg Fuab Tais lawv tej muag nug los yeej rov sib yuav. Yog yuav
muab saib li no ces ib xeem sib yuav los yeej tsi ua cas li. Lub xeem
ntawd mas nws tseem cais deb tshaj nug muag lawm thiab.
Nyob rau ntawm tsav neeg Isxayees, thaum ub muaj ob tus ntxhais muab
leej txiv txhaus cawv kom qaug. nkawv nrog leej txiv pw thiab muaj me
nyuam. Tamsim no lawv kuj tseem yog ib caj ceg ntawm Isxasyees 12 tsav
neeg.
Ua neej nyob hauv ntiaj teb no qhov niag ntawd ces nws yeej zoo heev
li. Yog leej twg sim tau lawm ces yeej laj tso tau tseg. Hais nyuab
lau lawv. Hnub twg mag txog leej twg lawm ces mam khawb qhov ntawd xwb
las lawv.
Khjedub.
qabnt...@hotmail.com (qabntujntsa) wrote in message news:<7ebd9498.04032...@posting.google.com>...
Tsujsua Dluag
that's where its gettin unclear..."as long as they are not brothers and
sisters.."...
this is where the problem...to hmong, brother sisters include everyone
in the clan...where do you differentiate???
qabntujntsa
one another, but on the other side, it is political incorrect in the
Hmong ways of life. My only concerns is that of the reactions from
our elders. Should we reject the roles and rules that our elders have
set and practicing for thousands of years?
As I recalled correlty, I hear of a case where a Hmong guy lie to a
Hmong girl and they both have sex. When at last, the girl found out
that the guy is really her kinds, she told her parents and fire is
lighting around the house. A big burden was place on the girl while
her father is trying to find and catch the guy.
Isn't that Hmong boys should stop practicing these activities when our
elderls are still present and opposing? Or isn't that the elder's
role and rule are history. ---I wouldn't want to see things like this
happen in this era..yet.
qabntujntsa
Cheng Thao
A girl from your clan is considered your sister. If you
brought her to marry, your parents wont' know what to do
because they can't "lum qaij" you two in their house.
Your relatives from your clan are probably got their hands
tied in their back as well. You would have to ask another
clan to do your wedding and you probably will be outcasted
by your clan..since you would bring disgrace to them and
they don't know what to call you... "you marry their daughter,
and yet you are their son.." Do they call you "vauv, or tub"?
And I think when the girl die, funeral is going to get
complicated as well.. A funeral requires two clans.. So it
is rule and social structural that give rise to this
"you must marry outside of your clan."
I wonder if Hmong has a country, will they create laws
to band same clan marriage?
ChaV
Li koj hais ntawm koj ntag es thiaj li pheej caiv tsis pub ib Xeem sib
yuav ntag los mas. Hmoob yog ib co neeg yeej tsis leem cai, yog hnub
twg tseem tso cai rau ib Xeem xwb los sib yuav tau lawm thiab mas
ntshe Hmoob ces tsuas muaj txiv yuav ntxhais, nus yuav muam lawm xwb.
Yuav tsis muaj cov sib txawm Xeem sib yuav li lawm os. Li no yuav
tsis zoo li caiv los mus txog rau niaj hnub niam no los zoo li tam sim
no twb muab tej me nyuam laib pib muaj tus puav lawm thiab.
-Cha.
@hotmail.com (khejdub perdou) wrote in message news:<309e5d46.04032...@posting.google.com>...
Tzexa Lee
brother and sister carried the grinding stones up the hill and rolled
them down to devine if God would allow them to get marry. Of course,
the brother played doG and they married. Of course, they were only the
two of them and no one around disagreed with them. Nowady, we have
brothers, sisters, cousins, and parents. If we are not getting alone
and want a divorce, someone will have to be with one side. One family
will have a very very big mess. Our ancestors already found that out.
Wanna test it again? Be may guest.
Tzexa
"Tsujsua Dluag" <ya...@iamyours.com> wrote in message news:<2680d4413b9a016ada4...@mygate.mailgate.org>...
tobewitty
open) to a family that make her husband officially (secretly) married
to his cousin from other country so she can apply for permanent
resident in the USA. Unfortunately, the law are more complicate then
they know. The requirement of proven as husban and wife are beyond
they imagine. Now the elders of that family want to hang themself (in
this case they are very close uncle and niece of the same family and
xeem).
As many of the Hmong are none literate people, when we left our mother
land we let other spell our last name (XEEM) according to the speller
ear and tongue. And we let them interplete XEEM as our last name, in
reality the use of xeem and last name has nothing in common. The more
we think we can take advantage of this spelling things, the more we
are going to degrade our own social culture and the more complex we
could explain to our children of being Hmong.
Of course, the spelling of a last name has nothing to do with
marriage, even the exact spelling last name (many times) has nothing
to do with each other, they never related to one another. In this case
I see many westerners marry one another who has the same last name.
Xeem (the Hmong use as the last name in westernization) is a unique
identity to the Hmong, and I see it as the only symbolic of being
Hmong. Now we are living in a broader society, and the Hmong
population are growing multiply with mixed social culture. It is up
for the older genearation to teach and set example to the younger
generation to respect and honor the xeem system.
Regardless of the typo spelling, without self-conscious and respect,
we can do nothing to stop those one who want to do (married their own
xeem) so.
Just take note of the gay community for example, are they more taboo
then same last name (xeem) marriage?
tobewitty
> to band same clan marriage?
How could one do so? Again, just take the gay issue now. The gay
community promise to be one of the fail or past for the new president
of the USA.
It is a matter of time for the younger Hmong to take on their cause.
It is up to one's self-conscious, base on family and community value
and social respect.
tobewitty
elders are losing ground. This is because the Hmong elders are assume
things to much and they forget to check on their basic things, such as
talk to their kids or even help them out to understand the Hmong
social culture value.
As you may see, even in SCH, we polute this forum with 90% of
political issues, but little that we talk about social culture. The
elders Hmong in general, love politic as well. They forget to talk to
their kids in socail culture issues, and given a direction to modenize
it. The younger one careless of politic or social, what they want is
to do what pleasing them as they see their peer (none Hmong) do. Each
generation take advantage of the ignorance of other on their social
issues, the elders never want to younger one to know their past
mistake and the younger one take advantage of teh older one mistake to
make more mistakes. In this case, the eldres never set a time to talk
to the young about the spelling of our last name (xeem) and the
importance of it. The youger one may know that being a Hmong should
not date the same xeem not mention of marriying, but their take
advantage of the typo spelling (check my other post under this thread)
and challenge the ignorance to their elders.
I will say again and again that politic is not the one thing that make
a nation great, it is an economic system that found upon a respectable
social cuture value. If we (the Hmong) do not or can not accepting
this, we will never achieve what we has talk day in day out in here
and anywhere.
IbVuag
"this is where the problem...to hmong, brother sisters include
everyone
> in the clan...where do you differentiate?"
Okay fine, I can accept that everyone in a clan are brothers and
sisters. But the question is is every Lee in the same clan? Is every
Lee brothers and sisters, in the same family? What if a Moua is Green
Hmong and another Moua is a white Hmong? I'm pretty sure their not
brothers and sisters by blood. In my own clan, I know there are
plenty of other families who share my last name, but our religious
practice differs. Thus there could be many clan or family within the
same last name.
Of course I'm not implying that as long as two Laujs, Lees, Vues,
etc, want to marry each other then they should, but that we gotta be
realistic. If they are not within the same family or biologically
related then why not? You have to admit that it gets pretty stupid at
times that our last name dictates what we can or cannot do. We should
use other criterias beyond our last name to measure the properness of
our union, and when those other criterias clearly exceed that of our
last name then such union should be equally acceptable.
sibtham
established to set behavior conduct acceptable to society. When the
majority a group accept a certain rule of behavior, the minority has
to follow. The change will occur when the monority can empower the
majority. Nature will dictacte the outcome. If people think that there
is nothing wrong with gay mariage then polygamy, intra-clan should be
viewed the same. We are in a time where the minority tries to empower
the majority. Is this a return to nature where ppeople can behave
wildly without any rules? I won't be surprise that soon, somewhere in
the US, a mayor will issue a mariage certificate for a man and his
companion bitch or a woman and her companion dog. Of course, they
should be able to file their partner in their income tax as well.
After all, what wrong with that if they love each other. Where is the
limit? At this point, I go along with the majority. Few insolated
cases are just deviance cases, I don't worry at all.
Sibtham
qabnt...@hotmail.com (qabntujntsa) wrote in message news:<7ebd9498.04032...@posting.google.com>...
Tsujsua Dluag
you are still not getting what i'm saying or maybe you are ignoring the
hmong way of thinking (in terms of relationship). to a hmong, all
Yangs are siblings...all fangs are brothers/sisters...they are ONE
family. but within this broad last name, people are divided among
dabqhua...mostly likely because of separation.
hmong hu the father's brothers as "older/younger father"...they call
their mother's bothers "dablaug/dabntxawg".....meskas for example call
their both their parent's brothers "uncle "
of course, every person of the same clan are not siblings by the same
blood gene...however, to a hmong, blood has nothing to do with being
related.
hmong are related thru last name...last name is used as a broad method
of being brothers/sisters. dabqhua is used as a method to distinguished
closely related clan.
still, blood is not an issue..but the last name and dabqhua is. take
an adopted kid for example. that kid, after the proper ceremony, would
be a "kwvtij" among the clan...and a kwvtij to the rest of the same
last name.
is this logical?? maybe....depending on how you look at it. but, i'm
sure more and more people are changing because this "way of life"
doens't exist in the west...not because it doens't make sense..but
because the majority of the people doens't think like a hmong does.
tobewitty
I must make my secound motion with you here. According to Hmong
legends, and a common sense of analizing Hmong historical social
culture and the backbone of Hmong spiritual beliefe (it show,
especially, in an elderly Hmong funeral) ceremonial in our traditional
culture. The Hmong were started with a rather small and unique single
group. They progress slowly through-out some exclusive unpopulate area
in China. Since the Hmong were dawdled around these unpolated area in
surching for peace and harmony. Their religious pratice were slightly
differ from place to place and group to group over the times, but this
is not mean that they orinaly pratice are not the same. This slightly
difference practice are make in convenience to the geographical and
economical system that could provide them. Even our tongues (Hmong
der, Hmong ling... etc.) had changed too. For the 1000 years or so,
we (the Hmong) survive and scatter all over the world. But, not matter
where and when, when we meet each other we were not hesitate to
accepting each other as one's own brother or sister (kwv tij, neej
tsa) due to our last name (xeem), because we are honoring and
respecting out root (ancestors).
Now, question to the next generation Hmong, should we forfeit our only
heritage? should we sell out our own and only Hmong spirite? by
tweaked the xeem for other mean or use? just for a temporary
temptation?
IbVuag
I can assure you I'm not ignoring the Hmong way. As a Hmong person
I feel that I have the right to question every aspect of the Hmong way
of life before I can accept it or not. I believe any Hmong person
should do the same.
My point in indicating that two Hmongs with the same last name can
unite in holy matrimony is that a lot of the elders treat Hmong
Culture and Religious practices as if it is a physical and absolute
things. All I'm saying is that it is not. The Hmong culture is not a
physical thing like a cup where if you drop it and broke it, it is no
longer a cup or can serve its purpose. You can't break Hmong culture.
Probably the only way that you can do that is to eliminate the Hmong
people altogether. However, as long as the Hmong people exist so will
their religion and culture.
Even if you were able to break Hmong cultural norms into a thousand
pieces you have not break Hmong culture at all, although once the
pieces are put back together it might be slightly or completely
different. Different, I believe is not necessarily bad. I think with
the changing time today, the emergence of embracing our sexuality
(whether hetero, homo, bi, or transexuality), the ever increasing
divorce rate, interracial dating and marriage, etc, etc, we must also
embrace changes in the Hmong people, in our community, and culture as
well. As a matter of fact, I believe we should facilitate fundamental
changes, for if not, I believe we might do much more harm than good to
our children and future generations because we have not or refused to
plant the seed of changes in them and are incapable of embracing the
changes in them that are beyond anyone's control.
Come on you have to admit that this practice that we (Hmong) cannot
marry some else with the same last name did not originate from the
time when we evolved from bacteria or some other more primitive life
forms, or it is an innate part of us, of being Hmong? At some point
in time, this practice was adopted, and I have no doubt it is probably
for a darn good reason, nonetheless it was adopted. If and when the
time is right, I think there is nothing wrong to drop it and adopt
something else that is much more compatible with the times in which we
are a part. Now how do we decide when is that time? I really don't
know answer to that, but I think that time is when Hmong people start
to drop it. However, I do know that I for one will not force even my
own belief on others, especially on my own people, because I don't
claim to know that marrying someone else with the same last name as
yours is absolutely wrong and I am absolutely right. There is no
absolute in this world.
Let me ask you, what is so wrong with two people who share no
relation but only a last name marrying each other? Many Hmong people
may say that they disrespect the Hmong culture by committing such act.
Such that Hmong parents or wedding customs don't know how to handle
such a case. I say that's not what's wrong with them, if their love
is pure and honest, that's what's wrong with Hmong custom and cultural
practice. So we need to change Hmong customs and way of life and
thinking when necessary. Unlike most people, I believe it is better
for the Hmong people that Hmong cultural and religious practices can
and should be changed into anything we want to than to say that they
are absolute and we must abide by it for all times.
"Tsujsua Dluag" <ya...@iamyours.com> wrote in message news:<fbd143d3f240497ed5e...@mygate.mailgate.org>...
Tsujsua Dluag
"Let me ask you, what is so wrong with two people who share no
relation but only a last name marrying each other? "
i told you already...THEY ARE RELATED...(NOT BY BLOOD, BUT BY LAST
NAME..)
Dai Thao
marrying cousins, sisters, etc. the chance of birth defect. i heard a
story from wisconsin about a couple that are cousins, they can't have
kids because every child they have had (3) as recall become deform and
die at the age 3-6?
SOmeone from wisconsin please verify.
Theoritically one could logically assume that this deformity is where
the taboo came from. And because the Hmong did not have scientific
methods to square away when along the line of generation to inner
marry, our ancestor just made it black and white.. no inner clan
marriage?
my question is, does the a yang who married another yang love each
other like a yang married to a non-yang?
my advice would be, "who cares, so what if people wanna marry within
their clans" Make more babies since hmong in laos are dying left and
right.
to...@witty.com (tobewitty) wrote in message news:<d216d338.04032...@posting.google.com>...
Tony
> i am not a doctor but one thing we might want to consider before
> marrying cousins, sisters, etc. the chance of birth defect. i heard a
> story from wisconsin about a couple that are cousins, they can't have
> kids because every child they have had (3) as recall become deform and
> die at the age 3-6?
This is the taboo that hmong parents don't want their children to
marry the close cousins or sisters etc. the story ended there...to
encourage the young people to marry other people with different last
name was to steer the children toward the path of having healthy and
intelligent kids...ha ha ha...Just like the birds and the beast...the
female always look for the strongest suitor male...isn't that funny ha
ha ha !!!
Pov Ham
zem kawg.
Nej suav daws puav leej hais cwv tag li lawm. Kuv tsuas xav tias
Hmoob lam caiv tsis pub yus xeem rov yuav yus xeem, tiam sis Hmoob ho
nyiam kom muam npaws nus npo sib yuav mas thiaj li txum phaj thiab
thiaj li rov tau nub tshws. Qhov no yog ib qho poj ua tseg yawm ua
cia. Nej puas xav tias yog ib qho zoo kev rau Hmoob tuag ntxiv?
Ua cas peb tuaj poob rooj teb no, peb tuaj kawm, hnov, thiab pom luag
cov neeg tawv dawb mas luag ho tsis pub muam npaws nus npo sib yuav
li, vim luag hais tias sib txheeb dhau hwv lawm. Luag cov kws kho mob
los kuj tau tsawb pom thiab sau tseg tias muam npaws nus npo mas koom
roj koom ntshav yog sib yuav ces yug me tub me nyuam yuav tsis qoos
zoo. Tab sis Hmoob ho tsis hais li ntawv, Hmoob ho hais tias qhov
muam npaws nus npo sib yuav mas thiaj yog seem kev seem cai. Hmoob ho
mus hais lem cees thiab txwv yus xeem caiv tsis pub sib yuav. Yog
xeem rov yuav xeem ces yuav ua neej tsis zoo, tu tub tu kiv yuav tsis
huaj txhaij huaj vam, yuav ua neej dig muag los ceg, yuav txom nyem
pluag kug, thiab yuav ua neej tsis kawg qub kawg ntsis. Tab sis txij
li yus pom cov Hmoob uas tua noj nqaij cuam, lawv puav leej ua neej
tus yees khov kho qhuas ntxhias thiab ua neej vam meej lug. Tsis tas
li ntawd, cov nkawm niam txiv uas yog muam npaws nus npo los lawv kuj
puav leej ua neej tu tub tu kiv loj hlob mos nyoos.
Yam hais no, xyov cov scientists zaj thiaj yog lov los xyov Hmoob zaj
thiaj yog. Ua li txhia twb hais lawm, ua cas cov teb caws muaj huab
tais, lawv ho cia lawv tej tub ntxhais siv yuav. Xyov zaj twg thiaj
yuav yog qhov tseeb li lau-ntshe qav ces kawg ua tau qav xwb zoo dua.
Pov
avan...@yahoo.com (Tony) wrote in message news:<c6a153d2.04033...@posting.google.com>...