F.M Savina - Histoires des Miao - 1924 (part 1 - our past 5000 years )

[DownUnder]

I just wonder.... HOW MANY PEOPLE in SCH have actually read Savina's
book - "Histoire des Miao", published in 1924.

I have heard about this book for a long time but I had not seen the
book until few years ago, when I was in ST Paul and Yuepheng showed me
his precious collections... among that is Savina's book... I picked up
the book... look thru the 290+ pages but did not have the time to read
any part. Just like an ordinary book - nothing look different but the
book certainlywas placed in a special spot among Yuepheng collections.

I then wanted to have a copy for my collection. I start to look for a
copy everywhere but I could not find anywhere.. Search thru Amazon...
there are two ads' that there are 2 used book for sale but cost more
than $240+... I hesitate.. if I would spend that much money for a
book! Over $240 for Savina book???

So... no Savina book.

But every now and then, that book come to my mind again.
And now, I am researching for my Shaman book and Savina book come to
mind again. ?what is in that book that cost over $240?? I asked many
people around but no one had ever seen that book. I really want to
read that book to see if there is anything that I can used in my
book... and more importantly, all book about the Hmong history always
have some reference to Savina book. So... I keep looking...

Then few days ago, a friend came to see me and he handed me a
photocopy of Savina book!!! Vow.. even chapter 1 is missing.!!!

I started to read...and it is certainly a book worthwhile searching
for. It is certainly an interesting book - no wonder everyone who
write about the Hmong has to make some reference to that book even
they have never sighted the book.

The most interesting of the book is Savina traced the history of the
Miao race over the past 5000 years and WHAT he considered HOW the Miao
have survived that long history but remained intact as a proud race.

But a new factor had entered the Miao's life in 1907 when the first
Miao was baptised and by 1920's, there were 2000 Christiansin Asia!
How this new factors would affect the Hmong's future?

What is even more interesting is the last part of Savina's book when
he added the Appendice - "The Future of the Miao Race". Savina posed
the simple question: Where would the Miao race be in 500, 1000 years
into the future???,

IN this post, I like to POSE ONE QUESTION (in this part 1) - [ the
FUTURE of the Hmong will be covered in part 2 (later)] ;

WHAT ARE THE CHARACTERISTICS OF THE MIAO (Hmong race) THAT CONTRIBUTE
TO THE SURVIVAL OF OUR PEOPLE OVER THE LAST 5000 YEARS?

du

[nyujquslaug]

On Sep 7, 9:51 am, DownUnder <drpaosay...@gmail.com> wrote:

Savina is the priest that had fooled our uneducated Hmong back in the
20's (in Laos) to make Hmong believed that he is the savior at that
time (Hmoob tus Cawm Seej ntuj tso los pab Hmoob). He was a Catholic
missionary in China who lived with Hmong for a long time and know a
lot about Hmong. When he heard that the French had rounded up Hmong
men to be executed in Laos (because of the Czazy War or Rog Pajcai),
he trekked to Laos to save Hmong from execution. Then, all Hmong at
that time, think he is really Hmong God mandated from heaven to save
Hmong lives because he had stopped the killing. But, to me, he had
just staged a show, to make our ignorants Hmong to revered him as
Hmong God, by talking to the French Commander at that region not to
publicly execute (10 men a day) Hmong. Anyhow, I applause him for he
did save many Hmong lives because, that time, no one dared to say any
thing let alone intervene the killings.

He had also documented that particular Hmong atrocity in French's
archive, too.

[Plum Vainqueur]

I wonder if any of this book can read online?
http://books.google.com/books/about/Histoire_des_Miao.html?id=B8EOQAAACAAJ

And maybe you can find a library with it, maybe a University has it
where you can only read it at the library since it would be a very
unique book that they would not want to allow being lent out.

[DownUnder]

On Sep 10, 9:26 pm, Plum Vainqueur <plum_vill...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I wonder if any of this book can read online?http://books.google.com/books/about/Histoire_des_Miao.html?id=B8EOQAA...

>
> And maybe you can find a library with it, maybe a University has it
> where you can only read it at the library since it would be a very
> unique book that they would not want to allow being lent out.

I am not aware that it is available any where..

May be someone can scan the book & post to the net?

Perhaps one day....

du

[Yuepheng]

Hello DU, Nyujquslaug, and all:

Good to see you post something about Savina and his book. I have my
own copy including his map of Hmong migration from the Middle East to
SEA, and the Hmong Archives also has at least two copies, the original
and the 1930 edition. However, I could not reach French and don't know
what he talked about in his book. I need your help to understand what
he actually wrote.

From your reading of his book or other writings, was he really the
"Tswv Cheem Rog" that Hmong talked about? Did he mention that he was
The One? Please help give us proper citations so we can help clarify
to our community. Thanks.

Yuepheng

[DownUnder]

He did write about what the Hmong were waiting for the coming of a
king "phoa thay".. and he did propose his 8 points to the french
administration on 17 April 1920 to save the Hmong in Xiengkhouang
during the "crazy War"... but I need to go back to re=read the detail.
(page 235-239)...1924 edition.

Yuepheng, can you photocopy Savina map of Hmong migration... I haven't
seen that mapm yet... reading the book, he mention lots of places but
it is hard to locate on any modern maps.
Can you post to me at my email:
drpaosaykao at gmail.com

Thanks...

du

[yawgnomdub]

Peb twb tham tug tswv tsheem rog no ntau zaug los lawm. Kuv twb yeej
hais tias hmoob tus tswv tsheem rog ces yog father savina nkaus xwb
vim kuv kawm christianity mas luag yeej hais meej tias father savina
mus ua haujlwm rau hmoob nyob Wenshen, Yunan ntev ces nws yeej txawj
hais lus hmoob zoo heev. Thaum nws pom tias fabkis tau tua hmoob yam
phem heev nws thiaj los mus hais kom fabkis txhob tua tua hmoob xwb.
Hmoob tsi paub ces hmoob pheej xav tias yog tswv los saum ntuj los
tsheem fabkis tabsis tsi yog.

[DownUnder]

YAWGNOMDUB,

Tej koj hais txog no, kuv tsis tau hnov los dua.. tejzaum yog vim
tias kuv vtsis yog neeg Xtian nyob Nplog teb.

Tejno yog Hmoob hais xwb los yoh yeej muaj ntaub ntawv sau cia lwm
qhov hais txog tejno li ntawv??

Nyob hau Savina phau ntawv yawg hais txog tias thaum yawg los txog
Nplog teb mas Hmoob twb tuaj toms tau nbtau hnub txog Hmoob tus
fuabtaiv..
Thaum yawg los txog ces Hmoob yeej nq waib nq ntau yam tuaj tos
yawg...

du

[yawgnomdub]

DownUnder

Yog koj mus yuav cov catholist phoo ntawv History of Christianily part
2 los nyeem ces nws hais txog tus father Savina no me me nyob hauv
mas. Cov Catholist phoo History of Christianity no mas muaj part 1
thiab part 2. Part 1 ces lawv sau pib thawj thawj pawg ntseeg nyob
Anthios, techaws Cilicia los txog rau thaum cov Protestant tawg hauv
cov Catholist mus ua ntau ntau hom church. Part 2 ces lawv sau basic
history txog church loj hlob mus thoob ntuj. Ces lawv sau me me txog
cov ntseeg tuaj sau southeast asia thiab communist hu cov ntseeg ua
the running dog of inperial. Ntu no kiag lawv hais txog tus father
Savina ua xa txoj hmoo zoo mus rau wenshen, yunan thiab muaj involve
txog peb tebchaws me me mas. Tabsis lawv cov ntawv no lawv revise tas
mus li mas kuv tsi paub tias zoo li cas lawm xwb.

Yeej yuav muaj li koj hais laub. Thaum nws los ces hmoob yeej yuav tos
hmoob tus cawm seej heev kom los pab hmoob dim ntawm fabkis txoj kev
tua tabsis nws los kiag lub caij ntawm ces hmoob cia li xav tias nws
yog tus cawm seej hmoob tos tos lawm no xwb os. Tej zaum nws kiag twb
tsi paub tias hmoob xav tias nws yog hmoob tus cawm seej tswv tsheem
rog los twb tsi paub. Tabsis hmoob ruam ruam lam vwm tua fabkis xwb
ces kawg muaj tej tus ua tau li ntawm ces hmoob ham tsi hais tias yog
tus cawm seej lawm no los as.

[Yuepheng]

Yawgnomdub,

Thov txim tias kuv tsis paub nej ces kuv siv nej cov npe nyob hauv no
xwb es txhob xav li cas. Kuv los yeej hnov cov dab neeg hais txog tus
tswv cheem rog thiab kuv yeej hnov Dr. Yang Dao hais rau kuv tau ntau
xyoo lawm tias tus tswv cheem rog ces yog Savina xwb. Tab sis vim nws
kuj tsis hais muaj chaw txawb chaw rau, muaj reference kom zoo, kuv
yuav hais tias yog kiag li Yang Dao hais kuj tsis khab seeb thiab. Kuv
ho tsis paub lus Fab kis ces txawm muaj Savina phau ntawv los tsuas
khaws saib dab muag xwb. Cov neeg muaj kev kawm me ntsis ces yeej
ntseeg tsis tau tias tus tswv cheem rog yog los saum ntuj li Hmoob
hais. Tab sis peb kuj xav paub kom meej saib Savina puas sau tseg tias
nws yog tus los cheem kob rog kiag. Qhov no kuv xav paub kom meej
meej. Thov nej cov paub lus Fab Kis pab nyeem Savina phau ntawv es
qhia pub rau kuv thiab.

Tij Pov, kuv mam li xa Savina daim map rau kom, zoo li tseem muaj
Savina autograph nyob rau ntawm daim map tib si thiab nawb. Lucky
kawg. Ntau xyoo dhau los lawm ces kuv muab kuv phau ntawv qhia rau
Neej Fwm Lis ces nws yuav yuav daim map li thiab no ces kuv wb muab
daim map tu ntawm phau ntawv coj mus scan los xyov yees duab tau ib
daim copy rau Neej Fwm lawm. Daim map no mas nws muaj ntau ntau tsem,
muab tais ob peb tsem thiab lo rau tom qab phau ntawv kiag. Nws piav
raws qhov nws xav tias Hmoob khiav Mesopotamia rau Siberia los rau
China, Mongolia, rau Southeast Asia.

Dhau li no mas xyov nej cov nyob hauv no puas tau paub thiab puas tau
pom Savina phau dictionary Hmong txhais Fabkis published 1917. Kuv
pheej hnov suav daws tham txog Savina phau Histoire de Miao tab sis
yeej tsis hnov leej twg tham txog nws phau Hmong-French Dictionary li.
Kuv yuav thau ib phau for over $200 tab sis muab donated rau Hmong
Archives lawm. Kuv ntseeg tias ntawm Hmoob ces tej zaum Hmong Archives
is the only one that hs this dictionary. Zoo li Savina yeej tsim tau
ib tus ntawv Hmoob rau Hmoob tab sis Hmoob tsis paub thiab tsis hnov
txog xwb. Los tej zaum tom qab no cov missionary uas paub linguistics
zoo ho pom tias Savina tus tsis practical es thiaj ho tsis tus RPA no
los hais tsis paub.

Yawg Jaokim Enwal twb sau ib phau ntawv txog the history of Hmong
writing system tab sis zoo li nws twb tsis sau txog Savina tus ntawv
kuv hais no li thiab. Tej zaum Savina phau ntawv no muaj tsawg heev.
Thaum kuv tau kuv phau ntawv no mas cov ntug ntawm cov nplooj ntawv
twb tsis tau txiav li mas peb tseem muab riam txiav cov nplooj ntawv
mas thiaj pom cov pages uas quav rau sab hauv lawm. Qub tab sis tshiab
npaum li no thiab. Lucky kawg.

Tham ntau lawm, thov txim nawb.

Ywj Pheej

[Tony]

Mej thaam txug Savina, nwg phau ntawv, hab tug cheem rog, Kuv kuj nov
txug tej mej thaam hab tamsis yeej tsi tau pum dlaabtsi le.

Has txug Savina hab nwg phau natwv nyaj tej ntsab lug tsuas muaj le
thaam ntawd rua txheej thau u vim has tas tej txujci tsi ntau npaum le
nwgnuav.

Has txug qhov cheem rog, yeej yog muaj Savina muab txuj kevntseeg
(Christianity) ntawd lug cheem faabkis hastas cov tuabneej Miao
yaajsaab (mountain dweller) ntxim yog txuas caajceg lug ntawm cov
tuabneeb Israel kuas Faabkis tsi txhob ua kub ua tsiv rua puab.

Taug cov missionary lub neej (lawv le txuj cai-nyaj txheej thau yuav
tsi txawv npaum twg le txheej nwg nuav), luas yeej tsi hastas luas yog
timtswv kws lug sau ntuj lug. Luas yeej hastas luas yog missionary
xwb. Luas sawv cev ntawm ib pawg ntseeg tuaj hab cev Vaajtswv lug pub
rua noobneej kuas paub txuj kev rovqaab moog rua ntawm Vaajtswv txuj
kev hlub.

Lawv le kuv taug moob cov caag lug mivntsiv ntawd, "ntuj taug teb tom
u, tsi yog lub tebchaw nyob dlhau Suav teb, nwg yog 'the other world,
different realm'". Ntuj can be used interchangeable with heaven or
other country. Vim Moob txonyem hab xaav tau txuj kev cawm dlim, Moob
yeej siv ntuj le other country, sky, heaven. Ib tug tuabneeg twg tuaj
paab tau Moob ces Moob yeej hastas ntuj tso lug.

Cov ntseeg nwgnuav kuj tsi yuav qhov kws Moob yog caajceg lug ntawm
cov tuabneeg Israel ntawd lawm. Lawv le kuv tshawb mivntsiv txug
keebkwm rua ntawm Noah, Pele, hab Abramham txheej, puab nyob rua
thaajtsaam 2000 BC ntawd, huas Moob twb nyob Suav teb rua txheej 4000,
3000 BC ntawd lawm.

Lawv le cov missionary nwgnuav suav cov Miao nyob Suav teb, muaj
tshaaj le 52 paab dlag. Txhua paab kws muaj dluab rua tej chaw kws
puab nyob twb zoo tsi thooj le Moob. Cov Miao kws nyob rua Suav teb
es txuas moog rua saab nub poob moog rua middle east ntawd yeej zoo
thooj le cov Middle Eastern ntawd. Vim qhov kws Moog tej neej kws
ibtxwm coj (tradition) lugntsuag (legendary), hab paajfuam-fajlem
(myth) yeej muaj tsus zooo yuavthooj le cov tuabneeg Israel ntawd hab.

Saib lawv le Abraham lub neej (nyob huv Vaajlugkub), nwg tsiv tawm
ntawm Ur, modern Irag, ntawd (Mesopotamia) lub neej teev ntau hom
dlaab (gods) moog teev tuab tug Tswv (God). Twb yog ntau txheej
tuabneeg dlhau lug lawm ea Israel txhajle yog Israel. Tamsis, puab
caajceg yeej lug ntawm paab tuabneeg Mesopotamia ntawd lug. Paub tsi
txug ntu Moob ntu neej ua ntej le Suav teb (ntuj tau teb tom u yog the
other realm loyog Mesopotamia). Saib lawv le lub neej hab tej kaablig
kev cai kws Moob muaj yeej txuas moog rua Mesopotamian le Savina sau
losyog yog le tej tub txawj thau u has (theory).

[seng...@gmail.com]

Father Savina, twb los pw hauv kuv ib tug yawg tsev. Nej xav paub no nrhiav kuv os. seng...@gmail.com

[beemou...@earthlink.net]

If Savina was the one who stopped the killing, he would have stated in the book.

[yag...@gmail.com]

Nyag muaj nyag qhovmuag...temsis kuv pum mas...nwg tua moob xwb...tsi yog cheem rog

[AEON]

too bad EVEN IF SOMEONE GIVE ME A COPY FOR MY WED anniversary I would still be OUT Of LUCK because I NEVER master that LANGUAGE that I CAME TO HATE the most after i found out in VINAI that THAT LANGUAGE splits into 3 people of HE/SHE/IT and to make it worse further splits into 12 tense a single verb can have the potential of 3x12=36 different spelling and pronunciation. I GOT HEADACHE from that moment so I QUIT my French class in VINAI in the early 80´s and I had NOT add anymore new French term into my little library that had already broken twice too. if it were to be in ENGLISH than i might read it once in my life time.

[Tshoj...@yahoo.com]

Enjoy

http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/bmsap_0037-8984_1964_num_6_3_1285


Il y a la photo du pere de Col. Toufu Vang.

TX

[Tshoj...@yahoo.com]

It does not worth to spend @250.00 for this book.

Sorry.

TX

[Zoo]

In the camp vianai central library 1979, we there was the book you mentioned. I read a small section of it. I do not know who control the library and what happen to all those books there. Certainly, those who know the rarity and contents of the book may have retrieved and kept the book.

[me]

On Wednesday, September 7, 2011 7:51:04 AM UTC-7, DownUnder wrote:
> I just wonder.... HOW MANY PEOPLE in SCH have actually read Savina's
> book - "Histoire des Miao", published in 1924.
>
> I have heard about this book for a long time but I had not seen the
> book until few years ago, when I was in ST Paul and Yuepheng showed me
> his precious collections... among that is Savina's book...

I first read it in 1978 and wrote an article about Hmong in China, which was published in 1979. About 50 copies were distributed to a few Hmong communities in New England and Illinois. The work by Savina had become a reference material for later works on Hmong by other authors. However, I had and still has issues with Savina on many points, especially the lack of anthropological veracity in his claims and the influence of religion in his work. Of course, considering he was a priest on a mission, it is understandable that religion would play eminently in his venture. Today, some Hmong priests are doing similar buffoonery in that part of the world.

Yet, one should also appreciate the fact that he did provide a glimpse on the life of the Hmong people at the time, whether it should be taken with a ton of salt, we do have a choice.

Teev

[HenryDavidT]

Today, some Hmong priests are doing similar buffoonery in that part of the world.

Yet, one should also appreciate the fact that he did provide a glimpse on the life of the Hmong people at the time, whether it should be taken with a ton of salt, we do have a choice.

Teev

++++++++++++++++++++


That's one of the saddest and most tragic thing, when it comes to the Hmong (and all people who have very minimal education: South Americans; Africans; and smaller tribes/group in Asia).

But, as we know, pure education alone ---- even at higher level ---- does not guarantee against religious buffoonery.

The South Koreans are one good example: highly literate and highly advanced in science; yet they are acting like buffoons in their imitation of Western Christianity nonsense.

I don't know much about the mostly poor and illiterate Hmong in Thailand, Laos, Vietnam, and China, except the disparate pieces of articles I've read on the Internet (and it doesn't look good), but Hmong here in the West are engaging in ACTUAL, BROAD DAY LIGHT FRAUD, in the various Christian churches and "real Hmong tradition" undertakings, similar to churches in that they rent spaces to preach absolute utter gibberish....

And the COLLECT MONEY from poor men and women.

They demand, using a system similar to the Mormons, each month these poor men and women pay $100 or more into the founders coffers... in addition to the weekly "gifts" via the bowl/plat/container being passed around during meetings....

Religions are truly a self-induced mental sickness of the naked ape species.


In any event, on the larger, historical "Father Savina" nonsense:

As you already noted, the guy was a missionary man; his job was to CREATE a story for and about the Hmong that Hmong and Christians would like to read about.

We don't need to resort to such fairy tales these days.

As you know, GENETUC & MOLECULAR EVIDENCE ---- in terms of "where we started from; where we went; whom we interacted and cross-bred with;" etc ---- is the way to go, if we really want to know our history, mapped against great time frames of thousands, to tens of thousands, of years...

Classical anthropological "evidence" are mostly, at best, interpreted stories and "interpreted evidence" (buildings, ruins, references in ancient Chinese books, oral stories, etc).

But the evidence found in GENETIC SEQUENCING is the most reliable evidence; that is the true evidence that would tell us roughly what region in central or southern China we originated from and how inter-related we were/are to other ethnics around there, OR NOT; and to what degree, etc.

Unfortunately, except for some very small, limited studies ---- some in China and some here in the West ---- we don't have much data on the Hmong, genetically speaking.

Linguistically, of course, the Hmong language is one of the Asian languages that is closely related to Mandarin.

But we don't really know WHY or HOW that came to be; we could have picked up words and phrases, from the Hans, when they arrived from the far east coast, conquering our ancestral lands in central to southern China, today; or we could have started, way back, when our earliest ancestors were still FURTHER NORTH, present day central-western China.... as a single language or a set of very closely related languages but have diverged, much, over thousands of years...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dDXIX-y6aY

From this documentary, of roughly 12-15 years ago, by geneticist/anthropologist Spencer Wells, and from other more classical literature about popular groups and migration, I think there is very strong evidence to argue that the Hmong did not migrate from the "southern route" like other Southeast Asians (Cambodians, southern Thais, Indonesians, et al).

Instead, our ancestors likely were among the early but SECOND WAVE, according to Wells scheme as presented here, who pushed hinter-land, going north into what is today known as "Central Asia" and slowly drifted eastward to what's today central China; and then due to the expansion of the Han Chinese, who were much more powerful and numerous, our ancestors were slowly pushed into the more rugged terrains of present day southern China...

Again, linguistically, we our language, with the Mein's, are rather similar to the Hans Mandarin, which is Sino-Tibetan.

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/3/725.full

While this study was written in a way that's not easy to read, it is much more scientific (with detailed discussions on the various molecular genetic traits of the various groups, including the Hmong...), much more credible than a lot of the Master's and PhD-level papers produced by Hmong of the last a couple years, papers that are mostly reviews of OTHER research and are, THEMSELVES NOT real original research papers, even if some of them use phrases like "genetics" of the Hmong, in their headlines and bodies of writings...

In any event... Here's my rough extrapolation:

Hair, skin tone, as well as the LACK of Hmong living past VIENTIANE, Laos, AND further south before the Vietnam War, or the 1960s, means that as an ETHNIC GROUP, we had absolutely NO CONNECTION with the darker Southeast Asians from southern Laos, southern Thialand, Malay-Thai-Burmese peninsula, Java-Indonesian, Papua-Phillippine, Pacific-Oceania regions...

[HenryDavidT]

>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dDXIX-y6aY
>
> From this documentary, of roughly 12-15 years ago, by geneticist/anthropologist Spencer Wells, and from other more classical literature about popular groups and migration,

+++++++++++++

Sorry, that should have been POPULATION GROUPS & migration.... not "popular groups"....

+++++++++++++

[AEON]

HOWEVER EDUCATIONLESS we HMONG were at that time we were better than those SAN in that movie THE GOD MUST BE CRAZYatleast we knew how to farm and abje to modify IRON to our advantage(BLACKSMITHING). IKNOW we still use poison arrow and bolt too only at a higher/faster effect into seconds instead pf minutes. because we extract the poison potion from tree and did some chemical mixing and heating toGAIN much quicker effect.HMOO VWM 5 LAM ua 6 FABKIS hawb2 pob yog 3 educationless baum koj xav...

[Vang Scholar]

Hi, I have the first edition of Histoire des Miao and I plan to translate it to English soon. I bought it for $300! But it's definitely a good investment. There are only a few first editions out there. I think most Hmong people have a very superficial understanding of Savina and his book (mostly because western academics have dismissed Savina's credibility) - I have read it and it's full of useful information. Of course, he was a Christian missionary, so a lot of his writing is covered in Christian ideas, but his documentation of Hmong life in the mountains of Laos is very good - and sad. We forget how easy life is now... Savina shows how difficult it was to live in the mountains - starving children, children dying from cold weather, women suffering from the loss of their children... I'll let you know when I have it finished.

[me]

During Savina time, China was devastated with unending upheavals and famines. The Qing dynasty had finally succumbed to demise. East Asia was split among and occupied by western powers and Japan. Millions died. Life was especially tough among dispossessed minorities such as Hmong. Remember our elders' reminder that parents even traded their daughter for a millet cake. The conditions were ripe for exploitation. Any time, there is no hope in man, for better or for worse, religion thrives.

It was boom time for man like Savina to spread the teachings of God and add a some of his own. For us, at least, he has left a glimpse into the life of the Hmong people at the time, which in some way confirms our grandparents' stories.

Teev