old topic but with a twist on timing and reasoning

[Moobthaibteb Moobtwmzeej]

For those of us who supposedly be in a more civilized country, can we match what they are doing here? Is there a time limit to how long does the ncej ntxheb ncej ntxhoo has to be up before the hauvtoj can be taking place?


http://www.hmongtours.net/2015/02/hmoob-vietnam-tsa-hauv-toj-rau-hanoi.html



An interesting reason for the difference in timing for the tsabpebcaug.


http://www.hmongtours.net/2013/06/peb-hmoob-lub-tsiab-30.html



Moob Lajleeb

[AEON]

TSA NCEJ NTXEEB NCEJ NTXOO yog XEEV TXWJ XEEV LAUS YOG TUS TSA XAV PAUB KJ KAWG NUG XEEV LAUS SEB NWS TSA 1 ZAUG KAV NTEV LI CAS DHAU TU TSA LAWM CES LWM TUS CAN ONLY GUESS LAWM XWB. KOM XEEV TXWV QHIA KOM MEEJ TSAM HO TXAUM DAB NTUJ DAB TEB THIAB OV.

[AEON]

3 CES KWV YEES XWB VIM 5 YOG TUS TSA TUS NCEJ NTXHEB NCEJ NTXOO. KUV LAUS LI NO 5 TAU POM LUB PHIBTHIS EVENT TSA NCEJ THIAB TSA HAUV TOJ. 30 LOS 5 TSA LI NOJ TSHAIS HNUB XIB1 TAS CES TSHAWB CEV TSOOS TSHO TSHIAB2 LOS KHO HNAV CAUJ2 CES RAG MUS TO TIAJ COV TO QAB TWB CUAM MOJ POB VIG VWG TUAJ LAWM CES PIB XWB MAS. SWB POB LOM ZEM TSHAJ. COV TOQAB POOB CES KOM NWS TEV 1 DAIM ZUJ ZUS. 1 TSAM CES NWS PIB CUAS2 LUAM. NWS KOM THIM KHOOM CES KOM NWS HAIS LUG TXAJ 1 ZAG 1 QHO KHOOM ROV QAB. 1975 KUV KAWM THAEWJ2 ZAJ LUG TXAJ. TSAM NO PLOJ 5 POM TAS TUS AS CAS-N QHIA LOS NCAIM SABTOM UB CES TAS... 5 MUAJ NTXIV LI LAWM COV MAUM TO QAB NROG 3 SWB POB LOM2 ZEM TSAM NO TWB YOG LI 50 LAWM TUB MUAJ NYAB NTXHAIS MUAJ VAUV LAWM NWS 5 NCO QAB LAWM LAUD TSAM NO NA. KUV YOG 7 XYOO THAUM NTAWD TSAM NO KUV LOS TIG ZUJ ZUS 6 50 LAWM THIAB COV SWB POB THAUM NTAWD TWB TIAV HLUAS NKAUJ KUV MAS XYOV TAUB HAU LOJ LI CAS UA CAS TUS 7 XYOO KAM LOO SWB POB NROG COV TIAV2 NKAUJ. HAHA KV 5 POOB 1 LUB POB VIM KUV CAUJ HEEV. POV TSAWG LUB TUAJ YOG TARGET KUV LAWM 99.99% 5 POOB GUARANTEE. KUV TAU 1 TUG TUB NTXAWG 2003 NWS TXAWV 5 DEB KUV HAIS RUNNING SPEED. YOG KUV QHIA TRICK ME2 NO NWS YUAV GUARANTEE 5 POOB LUB MOJ POB. 1 PHAUM MENYUAM NROG NWS CES 5 MUAJ TUS NROG NWS RACE RUNNING LAWM. SIM DUA THAUM MUS PINIC TOM PARK LAWM.

[Moobthaibteb Moobtwmzeej]

What's your opinion on the author of the Vietnam Tour page stating that the reason we have different timing in the tsabpebcaug is that those of us who migrated to different areas just doing it according to the mainstream, the majority of the local areas? We copied the Pubyib or Puabyib as the article stated, that we have it after the harvest instead of having it according to the traditional old way. If we are to look at it from the different calendars and to go by as according to the ruler of the land that we used to lived in, then our new year festival should fall right along the Chinese new year, which is what those in Vietnam is doing now. They just raised the ncej ntxeb ncej ntxhoo last weekend and won't be having the hauvtoj until next week, starting Feb 22-24, 2015.

[yag...@gmail.com]

ncej ntxheb ncej ntxhoo is the hauvtoj itself. not sure what you're asking.

yh

[Moobthaibteb Moobtwmzeej]

Unless I am wrong, and there is a great chance that I could be wrong, my understanding is that hauvtoj is the event whereas the ncej ntxheb ncej ntxhoo is just the materialistic setup for the event, those two are not one and the same. While hauvtoj is intangible, ncej ntxheb ncej ntxhoo is tangible. The original question was is there a duration limitation as to how long a ncej ntxheb ncej ntxhoo has to be physically set up before a hauvtoj can begin? The duration for those in Hanoi is two weeks, can it be in a shorter time than that? Would it txhum dlaab as Aeon was saying if some start the hauvtoj activities before this two weeks period? Can the ncej ntxheb ncej ntxhoo be erect and the hauvtoj activities begin on the same day?

[yag...@gmail.com]

i see what your question is now.

per legend...i told this story once in here already...only to be rediculed by so called "scholars". and of course, they are "correct" in their views too...only becuase hmoob tsi mmuab written down. but i find this story to make the most sense. even now, i keep saying the typical usa new year is really a hauvtoj. and most scholars/people can't seem to differentiate the two.

here is the origin of the hauvtoj. after our great leader lost the war to the chinese (some say it is chiyou)...his generals took off and escaped to a mountainside. the only way to "regroup" is to cut two very tall trees...cut off all the branches...and raised the tree at the top of the mountain and put our leaders flag on it. the purpose of this to let the "scattered" soldiers know/see where the regrouping location is. this one is called ncej ntxheb..or some call it ncej paag....and the other one, is to be raised at a lower level where the people are actually regrouping. tis is called ncej ntxhoo... in simple terms..ncej ntxheb ncej ntxhoo are just flag poles.

however, after 3 days of waiting...after everyone is regrouped...hmoob tsawg heev lawm. so those who wanted to leave, started moving down south to the east and south...thus we have "lajfab" and toobfab"...note that we never say "peg fab and xib fab" because we only moved southeast toward the south and the sea. so keep in mind, the chinese are also after them..but of course, the chinese also lost many. so they sent spies to spy on the hmong group. some way that this is why...hmong started playing qeej to communicate..and this is why txiv qeej always play the first song and the last song...during the first song, after txiv qeej "raised" the pole, he climed it and when he gets tot the top, he set the flag there. after during the last song, after plays, he climed and took off the flag. during the last song, some say, that "peb yuav tshuab, peb yuav hais.." actually means "peb yuav tsi..peb yuav mus..."

also note that this is not "tsa hauv toj" as we know it now yet..it is only tsa ncej ntxheb/ntxhoo to attract mong on the move. so, still scared, the mong started moving south/east after 3 days. after a certain miles/or after they are tired, they tsa ncej ntxheb/nthoo again to let those who are still behind know where the mong are heading.

after many years....tsi muaj war lawm. tebchaws tiaj tus lawm...and of course, tsa ncej ntxheb/ntxhoo is getting monotonous for the people. so...the people decided to raise the poles only once a year....so they decided to place this event with the new year, during THE THREE DAYS OF CAIV DURING NEW YEAR.

however, over time, the meaning of tsa ncej ntxhe has a bigger meaning...it is a time to "regroup" as mong, and not as "war rregroouping." it is a time uas sawvdaws los sibcuag as a ethnic group lawm xwb...NOTE THAT THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH NEW YEAR. tsa ncej ntxheeb changeed its purpose too in anotyher way..tsa hauvtoj is mixed with it. or to put it in simple term, mong added a new "purpose" to the tsa ncej ntxheb. it is during this time and event that "pov pob" got mixed into it. but the most important ritual is the "tsa hauvtoj" addition. the purpose of this yog ib lub "yeem" los pov niaj pov xyoo rau peb hmoob xwb. thaum koj tsa ncej ntxheb ces koj tsa lub hauvtoj (in hope of a fruitful year for the hmong and of course, some say, a leader to lead the mong).

so in simple term, hauvtoj is a newer ritual of the tsa ncej ntxheb...where pov pob, and lub yeem got mixed into it. mong also started has lugtxaj, tso nyuj fight, etc..during this event. eventually, the name "tsa hauvtoj" has a more focused meaning....so people started calling it tsa hauvtoj lawm. but keep in mind, tsa hauvtoj is a newer adopted ritual of tsa ncej ntxheb xwb. keep in mind, kwvtxhiaj noj tsiab, nws muaj nws..kwvtxhiaj noj30 nws muaj nws...kwv txhiaj tsa ncej ntxheb ncej ntxho/ or lub hauv toj, nws muaj nws. tom tshav pob, ces peb yuav tsum pauv li no...tsi muaj ib zaug peb qhib lub hauvtoj, es peb yuav tias "noj tsiab." cov no yog nws tsi paub xwb. lam tau lam hais lawm.

now, to asnwer your question...how long do we tsa ncej ntxheb before we tsa hauvtoj. the two events are one...as soon as we tsa ncej ntxheb, that's when we pauj lub yeem from the previous year....and that's why we "fiv" lub yeem to be "pauj" in the next year. thus this is when we "tsa lub hauvtoj" los pov pejxeem hmoob kom noj qab nyob xzoo xwb.

so hais txog lub hauvtoj, we can do it anytime we want..it is more of a convenience of time. the 7/4 of MN can be a hauvtoj or tsa ncej ntxheb event. but certainly, the new year celebrations that we keep on having can never be new yyear event, because it is only a tsa ncej ntxheb/hauvtoj. only in american are we this messed up...especially the scholars/leader.

hais txog kev txhaum dabqhua...tsa ncej ntxheb tsi muaj dab involve so nws tsi txhaum dabtsi...however, keep in mind, yog koj fiv es koj tsi pauj...ces txhaum mas....seb koj fiv li cas xwb?

peb sab moospheeb, cov laus yeej hais meej li no...which is why i question many people of many other places...calling a hauvtoj event a new year is not how we r taught. peb hais tias "peb mus noj 30" or peb mus noj tsiab" or "lawd noj tsiab 30"...WE ARE ONLY REFERRING TO THE INHOUSE FEASTS THAT WE HAVE during new years. these are family dinners/feasts....occurs inhouse..and per calendar.

hauvtoj, on the other hand, can be anytime....the main reason why we like to perform hauvtoj during new year is just that we want to start the new year with something good just as any other "beliefs"...xyoo tshiab lawm ces pib tshiab...yeem tshiab...siab tshiab..etc.

[AEON]

I AGREED to certain EXTEND.That is BECAUSE TIMING is about right acccording to LOCAL EVENTS. for example in FEB is usually CHINESE NEW YEAR & VIET also follow the same CALENDAR. FOR those had MIGRATE BEYOND VIETNAM we followed more closely with WESTERN CALENDAR. that's WHY WE TIME OUR NEW YEAR AROUND DECEMBER& JANUARY. HAHA UP NORT HER WE EVEN BEGIN SOMEWHERE IN AUGUST OR SEPTEMBER. I SAW IN WIS. & EASTHERN MN. I LIKE THE SPTEMBER WEATHER AT the PARK IN LAROSS & WINONA AREA I WENT THERE IN 1990 driving along the MISSIPSSIPI WAS SO BEATYFULL TO SEE ALL THOSE HMONG CLOTHS & the EVENT MUSIC to go with HIGH PROTEIN & STARCH FOODS. IF I CAN I'LL checkout those SEPTEMBER EVENT IN WIS & SOUTH EASTERN MN (LACROSS & WINONA AREA). MUCH BETTER THAN the COLD & FREEZING NOVEMBER&DECEMBER IN MSP AREA. IF I'M RETIRE 100% I MIGHT MOVE THERE.

[yag...@gmail.com]

aeon

our new year is and has always been around november...not december or january.,

our hauvtoj, however, is picked by "xeev laus" back in the old days...but usually during the 3 days of "caiv". in america, however, people donb't know what it is anymore..so they call it "new year"

yh

[Moobthaibteb Moobtwmzeej]

So that is how your region "peb sab moospheeb" do it, "the two events are one...as soon as we tsa ncej ntxheb, that's when we pauj lub yeem from the previous year" However that does not mean that other region are wrong by doing it differently, right? I mean at first you were explaining about the ncej ntxheb ncej ntxhoo were just an alert, a notification, about the location for the gathering of our people, like what the intention is now in Hanoi, announcement of where the hauvtoj event will be taking place, but then toward the end you seem to allude that it is wrong to not doing it at the same time, when erect ncej ntxheb then must tsaa hauvtoj too because "the two events are one...as soon as we tsa ncej ntxheb, that's when we pauj lub yeem from the previous year." It is almost as though you are saying what other region do is totally wrong, since they don't make the two event into one as your region does. My intention for asking the duration that separate the ncej ntxheb ncej ntxhoo from that of hauvtoj is to determine the dependence of the two, or independence of the two. Some may view it as you can't have one without the other, for if doing so then would void the whole thing. What's the point to have the hauvtoj without any ncej ntxheb erected, or what good does erecting a ncej ntxheb if you are not going to have a hauvtoj. What baffles me is that you have explained that hauvtoj is just a latter addition to the notification event of erecting the ncej ntxheb ncej ntxhoo, not an original requirement but just a greed desire of the leaders during that time to want to make a grandeur show, deceiving the ignorant people who didn't know that hauvtoj was not even needed, and yet saying that the two are one. So which is it, are they one or are they not one?

Anyway, to your point of "the main reason why we like to perform hauvtoj during new year is just that we want to start the new year with something good," are you saying hauvtoj can be in the new year but the new year can't be in hauvtoj? This is not a good analogy but it's the only one comes to mind at the moment. Is it like the saying that goes as, you can take a girl out of the slum but you can't take the slum out of the girl? Hauvtoj can be in new year but new year can't be in hauvtoj because hauvtoj is just a yeem that people conjure, while new year is the fellowship of the community?

To you, new year/tsabpebcaug is only pertaining to the meals that each individual family eat during that time, however the wider community seem to agree that tsabpebcaug is a festival with more activities than just eating alone. This is from the Vietnam Tour page, "Nyob rau lub xyoo 2015 no peb Hmoob nyob tebchaws Vietnam yuav noj 30 rau thaum lub 2 hlis 18-25 xyoo no. Tej yam yuav muaj rau lub 30 xyoo no mas yog: Tsa Hauv Toj, Ntaus Tuj Lub, Ntaus Ntiv, Pov Pob, Ncaws Pob thiab txhua yam uas yog Hmoob tej txuj ci." So as you said, hauvtoj is just an event that can take place any time and be eliminate without making any blemish to the tsabpebcaug, wouldn't that same logic applies to the family meal too, it can take place anytime and be eliminate without making any dent to the main tsabpebcaug festival? Why want to proclaim tsabpebcaug pertain only to invidual family eating?

[AEON]

I THINK THAT NEW YEAR WAS NOT ALWAYS NOV. THE REASN IS in our village back B4 1976 the villagers got to have a MEETING to SELECT our new year EVERY YEAR. IF ALL AGREED ON THE NOV. time than FINE we did it in NOV. NOT EVERY YEAR GOT THAT NOV. BECAUSE SOME FAMILY OF OUR VILLAGE HAD MAJOR RICE HARVEST PROBLEM IF WE CHOOSE NOV. THAN THAT FAMILY CAN'T DO IT. WE DON.T TO DO NEWYEAR LETTING SOME FAMILY FALL BEHIND SO SAD. THAT;S WHY THERE WAS A MEETING EVERY YEAR TO SELECT THE DAY OF NEWYEAR I GUESS WE WERE THE MOST DEMOCRATIC DURING THE 70'S. I HAPPEN TO KNOW BECAUSE THOSE MEETINGS WERE HELD IN OUR HOUSE. GUESS WHAT 1875 I GOT 2 NEWYEAR BECAUSE OUR VILLAGE TOOK DECEMBER WHILE THE YANG VILLAGE 2 HOURS WALKING AWAY COOSE NOV. SO A FEW OF JUST JUST WENT TO THE YANG VILLAGE TO HAVE A NEWYEAR IN NOV & CAME BACK HOME TO HAVE ANOTHER NEWYEAR IN OUR VILLAGE. DOESN'T MATTER NOV OR ANY OTHER MONTH AFTER A FEW WEEKS OF CELEBRATION IT'S TIME TO PACK RICE, AXES and all needed to to the FOREST OF CHOICE 2 SLASH& CHOP 4 A FARM. PAY TIME 4 HAVING FUN IN NEWYEAR. COME MARCH & APRIL TIME TO BURN THE FARM & CLEAR THE BURNT FARM GOOD ENOUGH TO PLANT SEEDS. IN MAY SEEDS MUST BE PLANTED& COME JUNE WAS RAIN TIME IN JULY & AUG the CRAZY RAIN WILL KEEP DRIPPING FOR WEEK LONG ( NAG 7 HNUB 7 HMO). MY FAVOR DAYS VIM KUV NYIAM SIV RAWS ZAWM CUAB NOOG THAUM NAG 5 TXAWJ TU. NOOG NYIAM2 YA MUS TXAIS KAB BAUJ CUAB RAWS ZAWM NOOG 5 XYEEJ RAWS ZAWM CES MAG ALWAYS. 1 TAGKIS TAU 20-30 TUS. CUAB TAUG KEV TOM NTUG ZOS XWB. 1076 ces NOJ ZERO 30 XWB VIM 11/1976 KOOS16 tuaJ ua KUB2 NTXHOV2 CES 3 DHIA TOM HAV ZOOV UA NTEJ NOJ 30.
KHUVXIM 3 1 HUB PADEK UAS MUAB FOOB TSEG 1075 UAS 5 TAU PUV XYOO 5 TAU QHEB. XYOO NTAWD 3 TAU NTSES NTAU THIAJ MUAB 1 CO UA PADEK. PADEK MAS KOM PERFECT YUAV TAU FOO(SEAL) KOM PUV XYOO MAM QHIB.


HAUV VDO POM HMOOB TIM UA TEB MAS KUV THUAM TAS LI VIM HAUV PAUS NTOO LUAJ KO RIAM KO TXUAS 6 CIV KUAJ NCEJ PUAB TSEEM TSA DUB VOG HAUV TEB."TUBNKEEG TSEEB COV NTAWD" 3 TEJ TEB KUV POM THAUM UB POB NTOO LUAJ NCEJ PUAB ROV HAUV MAS MAG DAWJ DULUG MENYUAM YAU KHIAV TUS YEES 5 DAWM TAW.
COV TIM UB CES 5 YOG TUBNKEEG CES YOG RUAM XWB MAS.

[AEON]

OOPS CORRECTION 1895==1975. TYPO ON 1875

[yag...@gmail.com]

1. However that does not mean that other region are wrong by doing it differently, right?

there is no right or wrong on how we do things. keep in mind that rituals and traditions change overtime. what i'm complaining about is the fact that people always say "peb yeej ib txim ua li no ntuj raug teb tsim los..." this statement is dumb. i'm referring here to the fact that mong usa say such a thing in the "temporary new year"...which is really a hauvtoj. plus, vim kuv tsi nyob vietnam or china...

just think about it..what does it mean to say "peb mus noj tsiab" or "peb mus noj tsiab 30"...this only refers to the feast inside the home during new year...not the "pov pob part"...because there is no such feast at the povpob part.

2. but then toward the end you seem to allude that it is wrong to not doing it at the same time, when erect ncej ntxheb then must tsaa hauvtoj too because "the two events are one...as soon as we tsa ncej ntxheb, that's when we pauj lub yeem from the previous year." It is almost as though you are saying what other region do is totally wrong, since they don't make the two event into one as your region does.

no, what i'm saying is...if there is no "fiv yeem" from the previous year, then there is no "pauj" or in precise term, there is no tsa hauvtoj. however, there is still tsa ncej ntxheb. but, keep in in that the two terms actually takes place at one big place at one time if fiv yeem is involed. basically, the socalled "new year" thsat we have in the usa is a tsa ncej ntxheb without tsa ncej ntxheb. to be perfectly precise, hmong does not toss balls at noj 30 or noj tsiab (the real new year event)....hmong only does it at "tsa hauvtoj" or tsa ncej ntxheb.


1. My intention for asking the duration that separate the ncej ntxheb ncej ntxhoo from that of hauvtoj is to determine the dependence of the two, or independence of the two.

you can't tsa hauvtoj without tsa ncej ntxheb...but you can't tsa ncej ntxheb without tsa hauvtoj.


4. What's the point to have the hauvtoj without any ncej ntxheb erected, or what good does erecting a ncej ntxheb if you are not going to have a hauvtoj.

this is why i say the people now focus more on fun and money, instead of traditions...but then lie and say it is tradtion. you are correct...there is no point at all if we are not doing it according to the elders. the flags is the most important thing of the event. in the usa, we could easily use the american flag, it works the same.

however, keep in mind as said before, the tsa hauvtoj is not needed during the tsa ncej ntxheb. it is only performed if xeevlaus or "tswv zej tswv zos" fiv lub hauvtoj los pov pejxeem.

5. and yet saying that the two are one. So which is it, are they one or are they not one?

they are one because hmoob ntshaw ntshaw fuabtais ne. but keep in mind, the most important thing is...the welfare of the people. lub hauvtoj los fiv los pov tibneeg pejxeem.

more question later

[yag...@gmail.com]

To you, new year/tsabpebcaug is only pertaining to the meals that each individual family eat during that time, however the wider community seem to agree that tsabpebcaug is a festiva

its because the wider community doens't even know what new year is. back in laos, it is only referring to the meal. if you dont' believe me, just ask any elder on what 30 and tsiab is.

when people say "peb mus tom tshav qaib" or "hauvtoj" then yes, it is referring to the place where people toss balls.

[AEON]

FIV HAUVTOJ POV ZEJ ZOG PEJXEEM NEVER HAPPEN IN OUR VILLAGE FIV YEEM HAD HAPPEN SEVERAL TIME DURING OUR CAUBFAB RUNNING/HIDDING THE LARGEST I SAW WERE NYUJ& MEV ES ONLY. CAUBFAB DID ALL THOV2 KOM POV HWM. BY 1979I ALMOST BECAME A MASTER AT THOV2 LUB NTUJ LUB TEB& POJ YAWM TXWV KOOB BUT WE FLED SO NO MORE NEED TO KEEP THOV2 SO I DID NOT KEEP THOSE WORDS HOWEVER I CAN STILL DO IF A NEED ARISES. I'M SURE I CAN BE CAUBFAB ANOTHER ROUND. I JUST NEED A SHARP KNIFE & AN SMALL AXE + THE WEAPON TO STOP OUR ENEMY FROM CHASING ME 2 FAR. THE AXE&KNIFE WILL BE OK TO SET TRAPS 4 FOODS AND SLOWING DOWN THE CHASING. 1976 WE RAN 4 16 HOURS AND WERE TIRED @ THE MAX. IN 12:00 MIDNIGHT WE STOP RUNNING AT A CREEK SO ROUGH BUT WE SLEEP THE WHOLE NIGHT NO COMPLAIN JUST SIT ON NUCKLE SIZE ROCKS HURT SO BAD BUT WHEN THAT "DABNTUB" CHASE NO ONE FEEL THE PAIN TOO MUCH IT WAS ALREADY 8 OR 9AM B4 WE WOKEUP 4 BREAKFAST OF AN EGG SISE RICE. WE RAN FOR ABOUT 2 MORE HOURS & FOUND A HIDDING PLACE SO DEEP IN THE VALLEY THAT 10+ 155MM MONSTER BOMBS FAILED TO HIT OUR BANANA HUT IN THAT VALLEY. WE RAN AGAIN CLOSER TO THE 155MM MONSTER INSTEAD OF GOING FURTHER AWAY. NICE TRICK. THE COMMIE GAVEUP THE MONSTER 155MM.
THEY THOUGHT WE RAN FAR AWAY BUT NO WE RAN ABOUT 5KM CLOSER. WE RISKED ALL THE TIME DURING CAUBFAB TIME. WE EVEN STEP 200 METER FROM THE MAIN ROAD & HIDE THERE BECAUSE WE GOT NO BETTER PLACE TO HIDE WE TOOK THE MAJOR RISK. LUCKY COMMIE NEVER BOTHER SEARCH THAT LITTLE SPOT OF MALL TREES. THE COMMIES AIM AT HUGE AREA OF TREES ONLY BECAUSE THEY ONLY STAY UP IN THE MOUNTAIN NO MORE THAN 2 WEEKS. THAT 2 WEEKS DID NOT ALLOW THEM COMMIES TO SEARCH THOSE SMALL TREES SPOT THEY JUST MAXIMIZE THEIR SEARCH ON BIG TREES AREA. THE GUESS IT WRONG & I ENDED UP ALIVE TODAY.

[yag...@gmail.com]

i forgot to mention soemthing very important...lub hauvtoj/tsa ncej ntxheb is not something that we need to do as a "ritual"....because it is more of a "gather/fun" event.

there are many many times..many many villages where the tsa hauvtoj/ntxhoo part is ignored because no one is doing it. in this case, the villages that tsi tsa ncej ntxhe/toj goes to other villages mus koom lwm pab lwm pawg xwb, if they want to...

maybe this is the reason why more "traditional" people knows the diffrence between what a new year is, because they know that it doens't have to be a yearly thing (as compared to a new year)....as i said to eon, moospheeb people are very traditional and as lao her said, very backward. people, on the other hand, people of long cheng are more advanced (in ideas)...and they had the "hauvtoj" every year...thus, the younger kids (the scholars of today) only knows that "when new year comes, peb pov pob...so it must be new year..."

yh

[yag...@gmail.com]

also, keep in mind, the ncej ntxhe, ncej ntxoo also exists in other traditions too...such as wedding. there are 4 types of mong weedings...1. go in house 2. lawv vauv 3,qhaib 4. pojnrauj... 5. cas

in any of these type, if a "niam tshoob" is agreed upon, then we also "raised tus ntxhoo" in front of the house...it has nothing to do with the fiv yeem, but it has something to do with "identity" as mong. lwm sub tu sub is the same, muaj tus ntxhoo thiab...but a thorny one..to catch pogsub.

all these has nothing to do with new year my friend.

yh

[Moobthaibteb Moobtwmzeej]

So you are saying noj tsabpebcaug originally has no sense of community involvement? Each family can do as they please, whenever they please, for noj tsabpebcaug is an internal thing, within a household, none of the outsider community wide business? You said "peb hais tias "peb mus noj 30" or peb mus noj tsiab" or "lawd noj tsiab 30"...WE ARE ONLY REFERRING TO THE INHOUSE FEASTS THAT WE HAVE during new years. these are family dinners/feasts....occurs inhouse..and per calendar." You can noj tsabpebcaug in your own house in November, got to noj tsabpebcaug at your brother's house in December, while your dad already noj his tsabpebcaug back in October already?

[yag...@gmail.com]

1. keep in mind, noj tsiab and noj 30 are two different things too. noj 30 involes only chickens, and this only involves the immediate family...noj tsiab is a little bigger event, involves a pig. these two can be combined in one meal or separate occasions. the tsiab can be anytime close (but before) to the the 30. but the 30 has to be on new years eve. but....the tsiab can be ignored .... you dont have to do the tsiab...only the 30 that needs to be done.

these two events deonst' involve community involment. it involes dabqhua, such as hu plig of the immdieate family only., such as pe tsiab, etc and txi xwmkab...ua neeb foob yeem...caiv 3 hnub...but, for the tsiab, muaj ib qhov ritual call "tos tuaj noj tsiab". this is probably the most important feast of the year when dealing with the "inlaws" or other "distinguished" people. the head of household "invite" a person, such as "father inlaw" tuaj noj tsiab. qhov no doens't involve the community, but it involves the "relationship" between the head of househgold and someone that is very important to him.

2. Each family can do as they please, whenever they please, for noj tsabpebcaug is an internal thing, within a household, none of the outsider community wide business?

that is correct..except "whenever." it has to be before new year and during new years eve (of coruse, some people npaj tsi tau raws sijhawm thiab). so in a sense, it can be anytime near new year.

3. You said "peb hais tias "peb mus noj 30" or peb mus noj tsiab" or "lawd noj tsiab 30"...WE ARE ONLY REFERRING TO THE INHOUSE FEASTS THAT WE HAVE during new years. these are family dinners/feasts....occurs inhouse..and per calendar."

that is correct


4. You can noj tsabpebcaug in your own house in November, got to noj tsabpebcaug at your brother's house in December, while your dad already noj his tsabpebcaug back in October already?

you are suppose to noj tsiab30 in your house...and no other places...because as i said, it involves dabqhua lawm.

you also seem to misunderstand "hli moob"....go and ask anyone this if you must. hmoob lub xyoo tshiab is approximately 1 month before the american new year...which lands somewhere around thanksgiving every year. per tradition, lub 30 and tsiab should be around there. for those who are strict, then it has to be during mong new year's eve every year...but the day changes every year..it doesn't land on the same day..peb saib lub hli ua xwb.

but, per tradition....one father, 100 son...los noj tib lub tsev xwb...unless the father is dead...and the sons became their own family. or in simple term, cov ua "teev" lawm ce, they can have their own. but you seem to be saying that two brothers can have 2 different dates for new year (noj 30). yes, you are correct, this falls back to the issue of "ib cov npaj ncaj sijhawm, ib co npaj tsi ncaj"...which is why cov laus npaj heev...they must reach new year in terms of food, chicken, pigs.etc.

ya

[AEON]

SINCE THIS ISSUE IS HOT I SPENT A FEW HOUSES TO ASK A NEAR 70 YEAR YEAR 8LD HMONG MAN AND HE SAID:
9 once in HMONG hisrory back in CHINA EVENT ONLY) HE SAID the ELDER WHO STILL KNOW HOW TO TSA HAUVTOJ IS ZERO. NONE CAN INITIATED RHE TSA HAUVTOJ FROM STEP 1 SO 4 THAT LIMIT TATION VILLAGES IN OUR AREA JUST IGNORE N FORGET THE TSA HAUVTOJ GONE BYE2. IN MN HERE IN AROUND 2003-2004. THERE WERE ONE TSA HAV TOJ ON THE WEST SIDE OF MINNNEAPOLIS BUT THAT WAS NOT HMONG USA WHO KNOW HOW TO DO IT. IT WAS AN ORG WHO BRING OVER A FEW HMONG CHINESE TO DO THAT ON OCASION GVP, his wife and his YOUNGEST SON WERE PRESENT IN THAT EVENT. I WAS HOT IN FOLLLOWING NEOHOM AT THAT TIME SO I HAPPENED TO BE THERE TO SEE THE FIRST HAUVTOJ IN MY LIFE. NOTHING WERE FUN THERE AFTER A OUR OR SO GVP AND HIS FAMILY WENT ON THEIR WAY SO I WENT MY WAY HOME TOO. as far as 30 he said no need to tsa NCEJ NTXHEEB NCEJ NTXHOO. THE CLOSEST TO IT WAS THE " NCEJ NKAUM TAW QAIB WITH A NQEEB STRING TO PASS OLD YEAR AWAY & WELCOMING NEW YEAR. THE NEXT DAY AFTER THAT NKAUMTOJ PEOPE JUST START TOSSING BALL 4FUN ON THEIR OWN. I GUESS WE JUST MODIFY TO TAKE THE SIPLE ROAD INSTEAD OF MAKING IT A COMPLICATED EVENT WITH DOZENS OF STEPS. FROM DAY 1-3 THERE IS STILL A DAY TO TXHAWB HAWM COV LAUS. MUAB LAWV TXAUS CAWV BASICALLY. RAREIY DO IT NOWADAY.
#1 HAUVTOJ HAD BEEN FORGOTEN LIKE AN OLD STORY

[yag...@gmail.com]

1. yees...he is correct on what he said...(from what he said in here only). what he forgot to say was "tsa ncej ntxhe/hauvtoj" is where we pov pob.

2. and the new year celebration happens inhouse only.

3. tus ntxhoo koj hais ntawd..tus ncag na..tus ncag tuaj pos na...this event is not part of new year or hauvtoj...until people decided not to "ntxug sub" as the moob leeg do every summer. cov kwvtij moob dlawb decided to "lwm" sub only...so instead of having a bunch of people gathering within a circle during the summer...they decided to do it at the new year los lwm sub tawg sub ntsha xwb. whether they do this tom tshav qaib..whether they do it outside their house..or in their garage...this still, is not part of hauvtoj/tsa ncej ntxhe.

4. muaj ib co tibneeg txawm yog 100 xyoo los..tus tsi paub yeej tsi paub...example....do you know that all mong used to "caiv 3 hnub tiag tiag li...tsi pub nrog pojniam pw' during their first three days of marriage? everyone..moob white/green did this. BUT...IB FEEM MEJKOOB 100 XYOO YEEJ TSI PAUB QHOV NO LAIV...cov mejkoob laus in the usa..maybe 5 percent know this.
how about thsi example...50% thought that tus "niam ntxhais ntsuab" is called "niam tais ntsuab"....what's worst 99% of all hmoong in the usa thinks that the niam txais ntsuab is the same as the niam ua luag. the fact is..tshoob tog qw thiaj hu tau ua "niam ua luag xwb"....niam tshoob loj loj, noj 2 pluag..ib pluag tom ntxhais, ib pluag tom vauv..." cov niam tshoob no thiaj muaj niam txais ntsuab. temsis, along with niam txais ntsuab txiv txais ntsuab mas muaj niam xa txiv xa thiab. tus niam txais ntuab no tsi yog tus niam ua luag...ua niam tshoob thiaj muaj xwb. temsis i'm willing to bet you anything thatif you were to ask a regular "elder" does not know the difference.

kuv ntseeg tau tias cov moob dawb maybe 1% paub qhov no xwb. cov hmoob lees maybe 5 percent. so becarful of who you asked..muaj ib co laus dawb xwb.

[AEON]

5 MUAJ ABC 123 ces NYOB2 KAWG HLOOV 3 thiaj muaj YAJ 5,7,9 TXIG. cov LEES thiaj tseem tu sub cov DAWB thiaj li mus lawm DAWB LIAS TIM NAJ KHAV 3 THIAJ DAWB/DAJ LIS TAWM MUS THIB/VINAI TSEG TSAB BEEM LEES2 NWS UA NWS HUAMNAB. nws muaj 2 tug tub & 1 tug ntxais TABTOM NTO2 NKAUJ. TU/TXIAV SUB ces 3 tsev no 5 lawm TABSIS 3 TSEEM UA NEEB SAU SUB 1 XYOOS 1 ZAUG. SAU2 COV SUB QUS CES THAWB POB TSEG COV SUB NYEG CES MUAB KHAWS NTIM CIA. 5 PUB DIM LOS AIV TOG NEEJ LOS TOG TXWV ZEEJ. SUB TAUBHAUJ LOJ MUS SEEJ MUAJ QUS TIBSI LAM THAWB COV SEEJ CES YUAV MAG. VIM THAWB CES LAWV NCAJ NRAIM TXWVZEEJ NTUJ TXWV ZEEJ KAWG THIM CES SAUM NEEJ NTSIB LUB EV 5 TAUS.

5 SAU ABC 123 KOM MEEJ CES 1 TSE YAJ XWB LOS TIJ LAUG TIAS KOM YOG MAS 5 TXIG, TUS KWV TIAS 7 THIAJ YOG 1 TUG LAM NAB 9 HOB TSHUAV 2 TUG TSEEM NYOB PEM TEB NEJ TSIS NCO XAM KOM MEEJ XWB TSAM NO 3 THIAJ MUAJ YAJ 5,7,9 TXIG seb puas yuav muaj TSHAJ NTAWD OV 3 TSEEM MUAJ YAJ CAIV PLAWV LIS CAIV PO THIAB 1 CO VAJ CAIV QAUB THIAB OV HO 3 COV XYOO MAS CAIV COV PLAUB NKAUS XWB YOG TUA TSIAJ NOJ COV 4 THIAJ HLAWV LOS DOB POB TSEG LWM YAM CES NQOS DULUG. NOJ QUAV TIBSI YOG NYUJ THIAB MEV ES. BUA MAS NOJ NYUV MOS UA NTSHAV CIAJ YOG #1 TSAWG2 TUS NEEG THIAJ UA TAU NTSHAV QAB KOM ZOOB2 NOJ. 10 XYOO NRAM DHAU LOS TSHUAV LI 2 TUG TXAWJ TAMSIM NO XAM2 ZOO LI 1 LAWM XWB LOS XYOV YOG ZERO LAWM XWB TXHOB COB 6 KUV OV SEB PUAS XAV NOJ NTSHAV KIB XWB LAUD.

[yag...@gmail.com]

aeon,

twb yom tim qhov no es thiaj muaj yaj 2 4 5 6 7 los mas...tsi ua li pog yawg ua. kawg tibneeg vaammeej in the usa muab lub niag hauvtoj hu ua "new year" no los mas.

my saddest feeling is that, we know the problems already..peb twb pom qhov sickness lawm...and yet, peb tsi kkk...we let people (even the phd guys) keep on calling the hauvtoj a new year. qhov no ytog qhov tsi zxoo.,

we know that "niam tais ntsuab' is wrong...yet, people continue to use it...and 50 years later, people will say "an elder say so"...

we konw that "peb moog uasi sau tsoob"....a green guy already said to me, "peb yeej ib txim hais li no..." you know what i said to him? I SAID "KOJ YAWG THIAB KUV YAWG NYUAM QHUAV SIS NCAIM PEM XEEM XYOO 1900 NTAWD XWB ES..UA CASKOJ YUAV DAG LI KO? thaum lawd nyog uake lawd yeej hais meej meej na" ua rau nws kuj tsi paub teb kuv.

i guranantee you that sooner or later, most moob dlawb will say that "lwm qaib nram tiaj" is part of pov pob...or part of hauvtoj. and then a phd guy will come and say "we start out the hauvtoj by lwm qaib"...WHICH IMPLIES THAT LWM QAIB NRAM TIAJ IS A HAUVTOJ TRADITION...WHICH IS A NO NO...

this is the reason why i am so anal about keeping tradition and knowing the tradition...xob lam tau lam ua...consider saturnalia...a nonchristain celebraton of christmas... lam tau lam ua ces, saturnalia turned into christmas. the idiot christians nowadays are too dumb to konw thaty they are celebrating a pagan ritual. but to fix their stupidity, they added "jesus" to the pagan ritual and claimed it as their own.

hauvtoj should be kept hauvtoj...and new year should be kept new year, whenever or whereever we practice it. right now, kids dont even know what the real mong new year is anymore..they think that we celebrate new year by going to a field and toss balls...when asked about hu plig, noj 30., pe tsiab, ua neeb foob yeem, etc...the kids say "no, that's not a new year, thast's only jingle bell by a shaman"...DO YOU SEE HOW TWISTED WE ARE NOW?

YH

[AEON]

THAT HAUVTOJ EXTINCT A FEW GENERATIONS B4 US ALREADY. AT THIS TIME IN USA WE STILL DEPEND ON HMONG CHINA TO COME HERE TO INITIAT A HAUVTOJ BECAUSE HAUVTOJ IS A THING IN CHINA THAT THE HMONG WHO ARRIVED IN LAOS CAN NOT INITIATED THAT HAUVTOJ ANYMORE WHILE 30 IS STILL EZ ENOUGH TO CONTINUE JUST AS ZAJ TSHOOB TXIVXAIV N UA NEEB BECAUSE THOSE ARE ESSENTIAL IN HMONG LIVES WHILE HAUVTOJ IS LESSER ESSENTIAL SO IT WILL BE FORGOTENSOON ENOUGH.


WHAT IS IMPORTANT OF A HAUTOJ? WILL WE DIE OR GOT NEGATIVE EFFECT WITHOUT DOING HAUVTOJ?

OF COURSE THOSE YANG 5,7,9 ONE OF THEM MUST BE WRONG BUT NOTHING IS WRONG WITH THEM THE YANG JUST KEEP MULTIPLYING WHILE WE XIONG ONLY KNOW THE + SIGN ONLY BACK IN OUR VILLAGE THE YANG OCCUPIED 2 VILLAGES WHILE ALL OTHER 17 CLANS BARELY GOT ENOUGH PEPLE TO RETAIN 1 VILLLAGE. OUR VILLAGE GOT LEE,THAO,XIONG. VUE, N 4 KHAMOU TOO BUT TOTAL LESS THAN 20 HOUSESALL TOGETHER LEE=4 THAO=5 VUE=1 XIONG=3 KHAMOU=4 YANG=0 in our village while KHANG=1 & that's ALL. SO FEW I WAS WORRIED ABOUT WHO'S GOING TO B MY LIVF PARTNER. BUT I WAS AT 7-8 ONLY SO I GAVE UP WORYING. AFTER 1980 WE RAN OUT TO VINAI & VOLA SOMANY PEOPE YEP I ENDUP GET MY MOTHER'BROTHER'S ONLY DAUGHTER WHO WE USED TO SHARE 2 VILLAGES TWICE IN LAOS. I SAW HER IN VINAI ZE2 PAS QUAV I THOUGHT SHE WAS CUTE 2 BIG EYES N NOT TOO LONG FROM THERE SHE WAS MY WIFE. SHE HATES ME SINCE 1984 BECAUSE SHE DID NOT SAY A WORD AFTER HER ELDERS HAD HER STAND TO CRITIC ME FOR ABOUT 30 -60 SECONDSHER ELDERS JUST CONSIDER SHE AGREED TO MARRY ME. THEY GAVE A SIGN OF AGREED 4 A MARRIAGE SO I GOT HER AS A WIFE CURRENT SHE CAN ONLY CRY 4 SHE SAI NOTHING TO CRITIC ME TO AVOID MARRYING ME IN 1884. WEIR HMONG CUSTOM BUT I WENT THROUGH THAT ONE. TYPICALLY IF THE LADY FOUND THING TO CRITIC THE MAN THAN THE ELDERS WILL EVALUATE THE FACTS TO SEE IF A MARRIAGE WILL BE POSSIBLE BUT SHE SAID NO WORDS SO THE ELDER CAN ONLY ASSUME SHE AGREED TO THE MARRIAGE. HAHAHA. SHE HATES ME BUT I LOVE HER.

[AEON]

On Tuesday, February 17, 2015 at 10:30:59 AM UTC-6, yag...@gmail.com wrote:

WHAT/WHERE IS THE FACT TO PROOF THAT USA NEWYEAR IS HAUVTOJ ANY ELDER TO VERIFY THE FACT?

HAUVTOJ HAD DISAPPEAR LONGER THAN MY GENERATION. while 30 happen once or more a year. some begin in AUG-SEPT all the way to DEC. just go to LACROSS & WINONA the beauriful area and you will see some WONDERFUL EVENT IN SEPTEMBER.

[yag...@gmail.com]

aeon,

tsi yog li koj hais laiv....yog hauvtoj dead lawm ces, peb tsi pov pob li lawm mas...we still do it, (without tsa hauvtoj and ncej ntxheb now) but we just call it something else now.

tsi tag li, nyob rau moospheeb...kuv tsi tau pom..temsis yeej hnov cov laus tias 3-5 years, lawd yeej tsa ib zaug no laiv? it is not extinct...which is why there are still few of us who knows about it..tsi yog hnov dabneeg...cov laus yeej ua lawm.

as for will we die...no we will not, but how do you feel if people start calling thanksgivign a new year? that's my point.

yh

[AEON]

On Tuesday, February 17, 2015 at 10:30:59 AM UTC-6, yag...@gmail.com wrote:

YAG you seemed to advocade our current NEWYEAR is ACTUALLY HAUVTOJ but no STRONG ENOUGH EVIDENCE YOU CAN NOT SWAY THE BELIEVE YOUR WAY BECAUSE FOR HUNDRED OF YEARS WE NO LONGER HAS THE KNOWLEDGE TO TSA HAUVTOJ ANYMORE SO WE JUST IGNORE AND LET IT GO AWAY. WE WERE BZ ENOUGH GETTING FOODS FOR THE FAMILY LET ALONE TAKING A WEEK OR MORE AT HAUVTOJ. TSHAB PLAB 5 YOOJ8. LEEJ TWG TAU BLEI TSAWG CES KAWG TSHAIBPLAB. & THAN THOSE EVENT THAT DOES MATTER KEPT US BZ ENOUGH. TXAV SUB HUPLIG KHI TES UA TSHOOB UA NTEES PLOJ NROG TSWV XYAS LAWV NTSUAS ZOG. UA CAUBFAB NROG PAJ CAI LAWV. SAU SE THEM FABKIS. 5 MUAJ $ CES MUAG TUB KI. TEJ NO TWB NYHAV DHAU CES HAUVTOJ CIA LI 5KHOOM2 TXOB NWS LAWM. LEEJ TWG TSEEM SIM SIJ HAWM MUS UA HAUVTOJ 5 MUS LUAJTEB CES KAWG TSHAIB PLAB. 5 NTHUA KOM TEB DULUG CES NROJ KAWB SIAB TSHAJ BLEJ& POB KWS PERFECT FORMULA TO TSHAIB PLAB. NO SOCIAL ASSISTANCE NO BAWSFES LI TIM USA NO. tim USA no khees vim muaj FOODXATIAS-M tub2 nkeeg pw khawm yus tus HONEY 7X24 los txog sij hawm foodstam& bawsfes txawj RWG NTXIAJ TUAJ 6 HAUVTSEV. HMOOV NTUJ KAWG HMOOB NA. 1987-1994 KUV NOJ BAWSFES xwbbtiag nqos 1 hli 500$ thiab 500 foodstamp. 1994 kuv kawm tiav tom U kuv mam tso bawsfes cia vim 5 qualify lawm.

YAG YUAV KOM 3 NTSEEG KOJ 3 NEED CONVINCING FACTS& PROOF TIAS 3 UA HAUVTOJ 5 YOG 30 NEWYEAR.

KOJ TIAS HAUVTOJ THIAJ POV POB. HUNDRED OF YEAR 3 YEEJ POV POB TXHUA XYOO 5 UA2 HAUVTOJ HUPLIG XYOO TSHIAB TAS TAGKIS CES MOJPOB YA DUB VOG TOM TIAJ 5 LI CES NTAU TUJ LUB. LOMZEM ME2 LI 1-2 WEEK CES SAU NRA MUS LUAJ TEB. QHOV TWG NTXHOV2 THIAB NTOO LOJ2 YOG #1. LEEJ TWG CIA TEB FAB2 CES KAWG TSHAIB PLAB TXOM NYEM TXAWV 5 DEB UA CAUBFAB YOO MOV. MUS THO PLAWV TSAWB LOS NOJ THO KAVTHEEJ THIAB TXOOB. TXOOB MAS KUV THO DUA YOG THO NTES KAB TXOOB LOS KIB DAJ2 QAB TSAWV THIAB. KOJ MUS ZE YEEJ NROV QIG QUG YOG YAV KAV TXOOB MUAJ KAB TXOOB. TXIV TXOOB MAS NOJ NYOG TABSIS KHWV2 UA NTEV2 THIAJ TAU UA KUA DIS NQOS. CAUBFAB 3 TWB SIM 1 ZAUG LAWM. UA LI 2-3 HNUB MAM TAU NOJ ME2 XWB.

[yag...@gmail.com]

aoen

that's the same thing as asking to prove that "peb mus saum tsoob" is correct/incorrect. vim tias cov hais "tsoob" yeej ib txim raised li ntawd ne..vim cov hais 'roob" yeej ib txim raised li ntawd ne. so you canb't prove/disprove it. but you can logically draw your own conclusion. my conclusion (as i told u earlier) is that x's grandfather and y's grandafter lived in xeev in 1900 together. they parted....50 years to 100 years later, x/y's descendants reunited...but the one descenatn say's tsoob and the other says roob. all i know is, when x/y lived in xeev, they both say "roob". to me, the people that keeps on referring to the hauvtoj as a new year got messed along the way..ignoring the cutlure part..and concentrate on the fun part.

i already gave you the facts and you already know the fact...noj 30 is the meal of hu plig during new years eve. and noj tsiab (associated with a pig) can occur with the 30 or before no ne....so how do you equate this to "hauvtoj" or the "new year" that we have today occuring outside of the house, which has nothing to do with dabqhua or soul calling? some "intelligent" people acutally went on to say "no no, the pov pob part is called nojtsiab30". but you know what? this is just a play on words referring to the two 30/tsiab combined inhouse. it still doesn't refer to the pov pob part.

koj sim mus nug suavteb moob seb lawd muaj new year, lawd puas tsa hauvtoj ma? kuv paub mas, new year is a separate entity (hu plig, txi dabqhua, noj 30, etc) from the hauvtoj (tsa ncej ntxheb) laiv. hmoob suav yeej tsi muab lub niag hauvtoj hu ua new year li na. lo no kuv nyuam qhuav hnov meskas xwb. ua ua, ces cov nploghmoob cia li hais li lawm thiab. temsis ua li kuv hais, cov laus qhia peb (thiab cov laus tsa hauvtoj) mas..noj 30 xyoo tshiab tag tom tsev...ces koj mam mus tsa lub hauvtoj as a separate ritual no laiv....but becuase it happens so close togehter, tibneeg cia li hais tias its one thing lawm no xwb.

kuv hais rua koj, kwvtxhiaj noj tsiab nws muaj nws...kwvtxhiaj noj 30 nws muaj nws..kwvtxhiaj hauvtoj ncej ntxheb nws muaj nws....peb nyob tom tshab pob, peb mus qhib hauvtoj, peb yeej tsi lam hais tias "peb hmoob noj 30" ib sim neej li...peb nyob tom rooj mov 30...peb hais kwvtxhiaj, peb yeej tsi hais tias "peb tsa ncej ntxheb/hauvtoj" ib sim neej li. cov uas tsi paub li cov niaj hnub no ces hais kawg..temsis vim yog lawd tsi paub xwb. koj yuav hais proof ces tej no xwb....nyuj muaj nyuj kab, neeg muaj neeg kev...yog koj paub ces koj twb pom tias muab nyuj quav xyaw nees zis lawm. temsis yog koj tsi paub ces koj yuav tias "peb yeej ib txi hu li ntawd" no laiv.



qhov tsim nyog peb pauv, ces peb yuav tau paub...temsis make sure people paub tias yog peb pauv rau qhov zoo...temsis kuv saib mas the reasoning of hmong meskas ces zoo li no xwb..."long time ago, as soon as they call soul eat30, then they all go to a big area and start pov pob...becuase of this, that must be one ritual.." if this is the reasoning, then i would stick to the backward reasoning anytime..and anywhere.

hais txog tsa hauvtoj knowledge, muaj tibneeg paub mas...temsis cov no yog cov quavyeeb xwb...cov phd smart dua lawm...in thsi world..in america...in sacramento, tshuav at least 1 person paub po? temsis tus neeg no quav yeeb laiv. cov phd hmoob nomtswv noj ssi tsi ntseeg nws na...

and yes, peb yeej povpob tau hundreds of year tiag as you said. temsis peb tsi tsa ncej ntxheb thiab tsi fiv hauvtoj lawm xwb xwb....still, this is not a new year...

my point is, in america...if we go back to call it hauvtoj, then it woudl be no problem at all to anyone....because it is not a new year...becuase hauvtoj time of practice can be anywhere for any city as we have always done it. ua los tau, tsi ua los tau li cov laus.

i saw dr. suav yaj argued to have only one date for new year....but his argument tsi kag kis na...from what i know, we have always have only one date for new year in america and in laos---that is during new years eve and 3 days after. was he arguing for one hauvtoj or one new year?

[yag...@gmail.com]

by the way...tom tshav qaib los, thaum uas lawd tsa tus ncej ntxhoo los ntxoov pejxeem, nws muaj ib zag qeej thiab...tu txiv qeej tshov zaj zeej no tag, ces nws daum tus ncej mus muab daim ntau khi rau saum top. ua li no tag, ces hmoob mam li pib pov pob thiab ib tus tibneeg mam los hais zaj kwvtxhiaj tsa ncej ntxhe los qhib lub xyoo zoo uas fiv ntawd. tom hauvtoj mas txawm yog qeej/kwvtxhiaj los yeej hais txog lub hauvtoj thiab tus ncej ntxheb xwb laiv....of course, after a few songs of these, ces muab ncaus mus rau ua nyab, etc tej no lawm thiab.

cov zaj qeej noj tsiab thiab noj 30 tom tsev nws muaj nws laiv..
yog koj yuav nrhiav proof ces kavtsij taug hmoob keebkwm txujci xwb. hope it helps.

here is the confusion (my opinion only). peb cov hmoob nplog are very taboo toward drumming and qeej. vim moob tuag tu noob, qeej nruas ces siv ua tuag xwb. vim li no, muaj ib co thiaj li txiav qeej nruas tom hauv toj..thiab thiaj li tsi tsa ncej ntxheb lawm...vim yog tsa ces yuav tau muaj zaj qeej no nrog rau ntaus nruas. ua ntev tuaj ntev ces cov laus muab lawb lawm thiab. cov hluas ho tsi kawm txog thiab...ntev tuaj ntev ces, cov hluas tsi paub hauv paus lawm...ces xav tias thaum pov pob yog new year....i am very convince this is part of the problem.

koj muab xam cov hmoob suav xwb mas. at the time that mong fought with the chinse beginning in 1700 (the last 3 wars)...the current miao in pajtawg now tseem nyob north of yunnan or northern part of yunnan. lawd tsi yog cov khiav los rau nplog and vietnam. at this time, the "power" of the drum and qeej are more concentrated on the dead for those that came to laos/vietnam. the norther maio at that time tseem muaj nruas yug ntau heev...it is not taboo for them to play/party at hauvtoj. and this is why, i think, they still do it today more than us.
ya

[Moobthaibteb Moobtwmzeej]

Interesting info, perhaps you should set up a webpage as the Hmong Vietnam Tours page that people can reference back to. Anyway, since we are on this being able to reference back to, what you just said about the time frame is in total contradiction to the information on the Hmong Tours page. The question now is who would be more believable. Correct me if I am wrong in concluding your saying to mean that we go by lunar calendar, same as traditional Chinese, yet you stated that our months is always one month a head of the Gregorian Calendar, which the 11th month in the Gregorian Calendar would already be our 12th month. However, per the info that can be easily refer back to, which of course doesn't mean that that is the truly correct information, in the Hmong Tours page it states "Raws li cov laus hais keeb kwm tseg ces thaum peb nyob rau Suav teb peb Hmoob poob teb poob chaw ces peb Hmoob thiaj khiav tawg los mus rau dej liab los taug tus dej liab los los thiaj los ntsib tus dej ntsuab los sib tshuam ua ke. Thaum li no thiaj muab xav tias yog taug tus dej ntsuab rov qab ces yuav rov lawm peb Suav, yuav rov mus ntsib Suav cov uas twb muab peb caum tua, yog li no thiaj txiav txim siab tias cia hla lauj no es thiaj hla ntawm dej liab dej ntsuab sib tshuam no los rau sab Nyablaj teb uas nim no yog nyob kiag ntawm lub nroog Lao Cai uas yog Nyablaj qaum teb thiab lub nroog Huj Khawv uas yog Suav lub nroog qab teb ntawd.

Thaum uas peb Hmoob los mus dhau ntawd ces cov laus ib txhia thiaj tuag tas rau tus dej no. Thaum no nyias thiaj mus nyias ces ib txhia thiaj mus rau sab Nyablaj teb ces nyob txog niaj hnub ni no hos ib txhia thiaj hla toj tuag tshaib dawm tuag no mus rau Moos Theeb , Moos Laim thiaj hla mus rau sab Laos. Cov uas khiav mus rau Moos Theeb, Moos Laim ces yog khiav mus rau Puab Yib teb no ces Puab Yib lub tsiab 30 tsis thooj li peb Hmoob lub lawm. Thaum muab los sib tham ces thiaj hais tias aub yog l ices sau qoob tag los ces muaj lub tsiab 30 noj es dhau thiaj zoo mus ua qoob thiaj tsis tab kaum sijhawm thiaj li caum cuag luag. Txij ntawd ces peb cov Hmoob uas khiav dhau sab ntawd thiab mus noj tsiab 30 dua ib lub caij lawm. Los txog niaj hnub nim no los peb cov Hmoob uas khiav ib txhij ntawd mus es mus nyob Moos Theeb , Moos Laim, Yen Bai thiab Son La tseem noj tsiab 30 nrog rau peb cov Hmoob nyob Laos ib lub caij tsuag cov mus tshiab tom qab no thiaj txawv xwb. Peb cov Hmoob uas khiav mus rau Thaib mus rau Mekas thiab Fab Kis los yog lwm lub tebchaws ces ib txhia nyias mus noj nyias sib txawv tag lawm. Txawm li ntawd los peb Hmoob tseem nco ntsoov txog peb lub Paj Tsiab 30. Tshuav cov Hmoob uas tseem nyob rau sab uas tsis tau khiav mus dhau toj tuag tshaib dawm tuag no tseem noj lub tsiab 30 ib yam li peb Hmoob cov laus ib txwm noj uas yog noj tom qab 2 lub hlis. Raws li cov laus hais tseg mas peb Hmoob ib txwm nyob Suav teb los ces peb noj tsiab 30 raws li cov Hmoob uas tsam no tseem nyob sab Nyablaj qaum teb."

That part which said "peb Hmoob cov laus ib txwm noj uas yog noj tom qab 2 lub hlis" to me would mean that we have the new year 2 months after the now more popular Gregorian Calendar, which would follow how the Chinese lunisolar calendar, having the new year around mid to the end of February, which is what those in Hanoi are doing now. This is the point that I was curious about your Thanks Giving new year, which would fall right into the "Cov uas khiav mus rau Moos Theeb, Moos Laim ces yog khiav mus rau Puab Yib teb no ces Puab Yib lub tsiab 30 tsis thooj li peb Hmoob lub lawm. Thaum muab los sib tham ces thiaj hais tias aub yog l ices sau qoob tag los ces muaj lub tsiab 30 noj es dhau thiaj zoo mus ua qoob thiaj tsis tab kaum sijhawm thiaj li caum cuag luag." Were you validating/confirming that the Thanks Giving time frame is just following what the majority Puabyib were doing? On one hand you are saying we need to get back to originality, yet on another you are stating the same information confirming that that which you consider as original was never the original at all.

[yag...@gmail.com]

moob,

that is a very good point, and it is something that i wish more hmong scholars would look into--primarily becuase i'm basing my "knowledge" on what i learned from the elders, and we all know how bad this is....and it should be addressed to clarify all these issues that we have about the exact day of new year. i have always wonder why on earth do we have our new year 3 months before the chinese..and yet, we are probably the closest minority to the chinese (simply becuase our dialect are very similar). my guess is, that "tour" page makes perfect sense.

I have two reasons why our new year is so early...not from books..but from what the elders say and from my own conclusion.

1. the first reason is what you stated exactly...with a little twist. After the mong reached vietnam...lawd los poo tau cov puabyib...and this is where we got the "ball tossing" from. it's an adopted tradition according to my father, and his father...which is why mong china doens't toss balls.

futhermore, the reason why our new year is so early is probably becuase the "date" was chosen as a convinience in accordance to qoobloo readiness. this makes perfect sense. cov laus mas hais tias, peb npaj qoob los los ncav xyoo tshiab. but it seems that we npaaj xyoo tshiab to coincide with qoobloo harvesting....this falls into what you said.

2. secondly, i have always wonder and question about the elder's mastery of the lunar calendar. i do know that most elders has only 28 calendar days...some say 29..and some 30. but the fact is, according to the words of the elders, they do say that every 2-3 years, they "pull back" 2 months....

do you see the mistake of the mong calendar? if the mong calendar has only 28 days...that's 24 days short every year...this is why the elders pull back 2 months every 2-3 years.

my huntch is that, aside from the puabyib theory and the qoob loo theory...the elders probably lost 3 months after so many years and just "kept" that date ever since. also, i do no that even in the highlands of laos, the elders say "ua cas es, txhua xyoo, txog xyoo tshiab, es paj tawg ntau heev, ua cas xyoo no es, twb yog 3 hli tom qab lawm paj mam tawg..." this falls into the same problem as stated--our elders did not count correctly.

so yes, if we want to be original, then we do have to be sure on the date of new year...and my most trusted source would be the miao of china, mainly becuawse they were the one left behind with the chinese, and it was these miao that should be keeping the "old/true' date of new year. the ones that fled are more like to fall into what you said, and what i was thinking.

what confuses me is the fact that according to the mong "noj 30 story/new year" story, it seems to say that hmong new year came about per txoov sivyig's defeat of the evil one...which happens to land right where hmong were harvesting crops. so that day was set as the new year, and the crops were used to make 30 dishes (10 dishes per day for 3 days of caiv). im' sure if we dig hard enough, this story will coincide with something writeen down.

i have a question for you...the hmmong of china's new year is close to the chinese new year as you said...but what about the hauvtoj? are they together too? or separate occasssion>?

yh

[Moobthaibteb Moobtwmzeej]

I have never been to China, so I don't know anything about the time frame between hauvtoj and new year there. It would be interesting if such information could be found through googling it, or youtubing it. Perhaps those that been to China frequently like Yuepheng Xiong or anyone else would not mind to share with us what they have learned from their trips.

[Moobthaibteb Moobtwmzeej]

A simple search reveal this one, and according to it, hauvtoj do not have pov pob, and they only say noj tsab zoo...not nyob zoo xyoo tshab, very interesting. More study will be needed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whMe0GahraE


Moob Lajleeb

[yag...@gmail.com]

the real question that should be asked to the miao of china is...is hauvtoj the same as new year celebration...from the youtube video, it seems the hauvtoj is aalso celebrated around the new year event which is why it says noj tsiab zoo. however, if i wasn't lied to by a miao teacher of yunnan....then hauvtoj is a different ritual from the new year rituals.

a miao teacher of yunnan emailed me a few years ago after listening to my tsa hauv toj lug txaj and he questioned me abut the hauvtoj. i told him as i told yu, and he did confirmed that the hauvtoj is a differnt entity from the new year (in essence he said that they never call the hauvtoj xyoo tshiab)....but i forgot to ask him when their new year and hauvtoj dates are.

if their hauvtoj and new year dates are arund the same time, then the hauvtoj is purposely put there at the beginning of the new year to unify the people as a group...similar to what i was taught by the elders. however, the hmong laos date and the hmong china dates are different...maybe due to the reasons we talkked about.

keep in mind, lub hauvtoj yog ib lub yeem los pov lub xyoo tshiab ntawd kom tibneeg noj qab nyob zoo nrog lub xyoo tshiab...and thus the "noj tsiab zoo" does fall into this mission too, similar to the hmong of laos.

anyway, good conversaton...

yh

[yag...@gmail.com]

oh..one more thing..if anyone can tranlsate what a tsab/tsiab is...then it may shed some light on these questions.

but one very imporatnt note...my elders never taaught any of us to call the hauvtoj "nyb zoo xyoo tshiab" either. however, during noj tsab and noj 30...tej laus yeej ibtxim hais tias "noj kom tsaus haus kom qaug..."

the nyob zoo xyoo tshiab is pretty new...in fact, this slogan came about only in the usa after they learned about happy new year.... ofcourse i could be wrong about this because i was too young to go to long cheng back in the 70s..in fact, i wasn't even born yet.

cia seb cov laus zog uas mus mus koom hauvtoj in long ceeb puas pom nyob zoo xyoo tshiab tom tshav pob xwb.

[AEON]

ARE YOU SURE you did not CONFUSE in NOJ 30 and NOJ TSHIAB to COMLICATE WITH HAUVTOJ? HERE IS WHAT MY DEFITIONS OF THEM:

#1 NOJ 30: a little feast with plent REST time to SEND THE OLD YEAR AWAY while WELCOME the NEW YEAR and ASK/PRAY it to be GOOD, PRODUCTIVE & HEALTHY.

#2 NOJ TSHIAB is a BIG FEAST typical a regular FAMILY to POOR FAMILY WILL NEVER D IT. this event is ALMOST A SHOW OFF ao any little thing will be the TARGET foe other to critic. IF you forget toSERIOUSLY INVITE ay relative or colegue from the duty circle I.E GVP or your officers YOU ARE DOOM from that FEAST. YOU are ADDING a dozen of LICE to your own HEAD THINGS. OUR FAMILY CAN do it BUT WE DID NOT DOIT IN FEAR OF LEAVING OUT SOMEONE or she already INVITED BUT sneaked out of the EVENT just to get a BIG "TUSIAB" AGAINST her HATED SIBLING I used HER jn here BEAUSE the MOST "BIG TUSIAB" was between DBLAUG &MUAM PHAUJ"

#3 HAUVTOJ= CRAZY EVENT NEAR AMOUNTAIN SOMEWHERE that I ONLY be in ONCE with GVP here about a few miles WEST of DOWNTOWN MPL which I DID NOT KNOW WHAT IT MEAN/ TOO BAD NO FOOD & DRINK WERE OFFERED. GVP and his family LEFT after 45-60 minutes so I just drive my NEARLY 10 year OLD toyota T100 TRUCK HOME. now I ALREADY GAVE IT AWAY hate it in having to spent about 3K in repair + it still BLEEDING OIL for more $.

to me HAUVTOJ & HMONG USA NEWYEAR are NOT EQUAL and it is definitely NOT A DUMB HAUVTOJ because HMONG CHINA came to MN to do 1 HAUVTOJ & it got NOTHING to be the same of a NEWYEAR. no lwm qaib no food no DRIK no beautiful agirl to FLIRT and TOSS fabric balls. no HAIS LUG TXAJ(one of my favor as kid & teenager in VINAI). a NEW YEAR is a NEW YEAR. a HAUVTOJ got ZERO FEATHER& WING to look the same as NEW YEAR. atleast gve me an 22 to FLIRT with atleast NEW YEAR gota FLIRT with WIDOWER& DEVORCEES. HAY DUMB BIGHEAD little WO you toss that HONEY into the DITCH ALREADY. HOW ABOUT DINNER and DRINK UNTIL ILLEGAL to DRIVE some time NEXT WEEK? if she agreed to a date just SMILE & make a SUPER LOW VOICE rigt on herear with STEALING a KISS " U KnOW me good enougalready no plastic bag on my tail please" those DEVORCEES & WIDOW would likely keep a DATE from my little FLIRT. just meet her and to MOTEL 6 we went. it is NO MORE THAN 6 MILES by I94 here in my neck of the SNOW. I TOOK A FEW there already. met one in WISCONSIN and we did 3 times in about 3 hours. she got "DD" the ONLY HMONG LADY who got a NATURAL "DD" I CAN TELL ADOCTORED UP ONE from scare but that one in WIS got the REAL when we met SHE BIT MY LIP got my car & my shirt ALL BLEEDING RED so I HAD to search for napkins. she ALREADY GOT HER MA & contue to her MD. SHE SAID she HATE/LOVE me because as an MA LADY she NEVER THINK she will met a HMONG MAN halfway at the side of I94 in MOTEL 6 doing those mjd sction shame things that she ONLY KNOW MISSIONARY STYLE.

[AEON]

HMONG STOP QEEJ NRUAS at party time because using the DEAD EQUIPMENTS in a good time party will RESULT IN MORE DEADS. in my area ZAJ QEEJ TUSIA will NOT be allow to teach inside the HOME. THAT ONE CAN ONLY BE PLAY/LEARN OUTDOOR. while TXIVXAIV CAN BE PLAY/LEARN INSIDE THE HOME atleast the MASTER that I attended his class said so in ST.PAUL here.

I ONLY ATTENDED 2 SESSIONS SO THAT SHOWS HOW LITTLE I HAD LEARNT TXIVXAIV THINGS. THOSE 2 SESSION I WENT THROUGH ONLY PART OF QEB PHIAJ. while a close family member had gone through a few masters classes to turn himself a MASTER TOO. we HMONG are STRIVING 2 learn our things in DOZENS & LOOK/SOUND FUN. EVEN LAO KHAN ARE ALSO BEING LEARNT TOO. 2 BAD my MUSICAL TALENT IS LOW BELOW ZERO into the negative zoneso I DID KNOW how to play a single HMONG MUSICAL ITEM the only thing I PLAYED WAS KIBTAJa none HMONG THING that i like buter never MASTER. I DID NOT OWN KIBTAJ NETHER. I BORRWED from friends to play a few days to a week at the most at a time NTUJ NO TUAJ LAWM WAS THE 1ST I TRIED. 1ST ALWAYS stick in our HEADS. atleast that 08 GURLO TOOK MA 1ST VIRGIN & I miss her upto now since OCT 20 1984.WE DID A FEW MORE AFTER THAT TOO IN ROOB 10 BAJ & 08 at her KITCHEN. in the early morning.

[yag...@gmail.com]

aeon,

not sure who you are asking..but...

1. noj tsiab is not what you are thinking. nyob rau nplogteb, noj tsiab tsi yog noj li meskas noj no. the purpose of noj tsiab back then is to invite a guest of honor. qhov no yog "hu tuaj noj tsiab"...usually this person yog yawm txiv, or tus dab laus hlob, etc...yog koj hu li no lawm, mas muaj tus "coj qhua" los ua kev ua cai coj tus "qhua" hauv cawv chob 3 tibsi...zoo li lub wedding nawb...qhov no thiaj yog kev noj tsiab tiag tiag. muaj mov txug, muaj so hlaub, muaj ntxuav muag, etc li ua tshoob li. usually, thaum noj tsiab lawm, ces yeej muaj li no.

yog vp muaj cov uas invite nws los yeej ok, temsis what you're talking about is the typical "tsiab" in the usa, which really has no basis anyway...because as you said, it is for show. txoj kev noj tsiab tiag tiag, yog invite tus uas hlub koj xwb..tsi yog invite nomtswv noj ssi tuaj.


3. to me HAUVTOJ & HMONG USA NEWYEAR are NOT EQUAL and it is definitely NOT A DUMB HAUVTOJ because HMONG CHINA came to MN to do 1 HAUVTOJ & it got NOTHING to be the same of a NEWYEAR.

it is because hmong usa new year is not a new year. the events we have at the "new year" belongs to a hauvtoj, except with the ncej ntxheb lawm xwb.


4. no lwm qaib

qhov no tsi yog part of hauvtoj thiab...however, it is pasrt of new year now...similar to hu plig lawm.

[yag...@gmail.com]

qeejnruas are not dead instruments. this is the taboo i was referring to,.

qeej tuag is only a little part of the qeej role.

1. qeej noj tsiab
2. qeej noj 30
3. qeej hauvtoj
4. qeej tuag
5. qeej tso plig
6. qeej nyuj dab
7. qeej tshoob
8. qeej txi nruas
9. qeej khawb pobtxha mus log dua lwm qhov

at first, qeej's purpose was not about death..it was adopted after hmong were devasted by the chinese, and only adopted by the souther mong (the ones what came to laos or the ones that know the one that came to laos).

this is why some hmong do not use it to do their death rituals.

taboo is how we look at it...yus tias phem ces phem, yus tias ok ces ok xwb.

[AEON]

HMOOB TEJ KEV CAI 5 YOG ME2. niamtai yawm txiv hu ntxais vauv menyuam plig los yeej muab KABKE loj tsawv ho ntxhais vauv daws npe laus lo LOJ2. kuv hnov 1 co piav mas yog MR. HONDA 5 TAU MUAJ NPE LAUS ces MR HONDA tus vauv los 5 muaj npe laus yuav kom tau yuav xum XUB TIS NPE LAUS 6 MR. HONDA mas nws thiaj muaj CAI mus daws npe laus 6 nws tu VAUV. tej no zoo li me2 TABSIS UA ZOO SAIB MAS 5 DOG DIG. coj menyuam mus khi hlua xwb tus 5 tau kawm kom txaus twb ua 5 tau. zaj khawv koob TSA TXHIAJ MEEJ XWB TWB NYUAJ. kuv kawm 1 lwm ua ntei li 30 minutes zoo li twb tau tsawv lawm thaum nqes tes ua TIAG2 kuv tseem RUA2 NCAUJ XWB. TWB 5 YOG TUS SAB NRAUD uas tau hais ntau2 los ua tuaj kuv lub BRAIN CIA LI BLANKOUT AM YOG LI CAS NE? KUV CIA LI TIAG LOO SAB LUS HMOOB THIAJ DHAU KEV TSA TXHIAJ MEEJ ZAUM NTAWD. ZAJ ME2 no tos lawv ho yuav ntau KIS NYIAJ mam kam tsa no los COV NYOM TSAWV THAUM HNOV LUS SUAV XWB. THAUM MUAB TXHAIS LUS HMOOB TAS NO KUJ YOOJ8 ZOG vim muaj STORY muaj cag muaj ces lawm.

[yag...@gmail.com]

moob dlawb ces...tos vauv tuaj hu plig after tis npe laus thiaj li ua loj heev. kuv saib mas twb loj dua ua tshoob lawm thiab. vim tias yog yuav ua kev cai tiag tiag ces, thaum hu yawmtxiv tuaj dlaws npe mas, yeej muaj tsho laus, nyuj laus tibsi ne..vim li no, after daws npe, yuamtxiv thiaj ua loj heev.,

has txog zaj niag txhiaj meej ces, xob muab xav nyuaj os..tsi tag yuav ua lus suav hais ua zoj ua zis li os..hais lus hmoob kiag xwb. yog tus xwbfwb hmoob ntawd tsi paub txhais nws zaj ces.tsi tag kawm li.

yh

[AEON]

HUPLIG 6 MENYUAM TIAV TIM VINAIS. daws npe ntawm MN no xwb ku li. BEER ntau tsawv tabsis 5 ntshai heev tus PLAB ZAIS2 no. beer mas kuv nyoo CA lawm vim muaj tug TXHEEB2 NRAD mas tsa poom tas poom tuaj tsa2 li 1-2 xuaj moos tej cev puv2 lawm 5 muaj chaw ntim lawm. HEEV TIAG. NWS NQOS NTAU TSHAJ KUV NWS TSEEM KAM 1SIJ TSA 1POOM hos kuv ces PUV PUB LAWM. YOG NTSIB TUS TXHEEB XEEM THOJ ces kuv XUM TSA CHIJ DAWB UA NTEJ.