Re: Ua Neeb Yuav Nqi Kim Kim

[tsee...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 9:52:38 AM UTC-7, minyuam...@gmail.com wrote:
> Khuv niam txiv nos ces cia li mag them $3000 rau thaj neeb ntawv....vim tus pog neeb twb ua neeb tag lawm. Tsis tas li xwb, tus pog neeb twb tsis kam luv nqi vim nws hais tias thaj neeb yog ib thaj loj lawm.
> Surprise?

Kuv muaj ib yawm kwvtij, nws tus tub raugtxim, nws txawm mus hu tau 1 yawm txiv neeb tuaj uaneeb kho(keb khub). Kuv kuj mus nrog saib neeb thiab, 1 chim txivneeb xaxov los tias:
-"Nej cov Hmoob Lis no mas thaum ub, luag(Suav) muab tua thiab muab tsuav 1 daig pov qhov ub, 1 daig pov qhov no, raug txim loj, luag yuav npaum ub npaum no, yog tsis them ces luag tseem yuav ntxiv txim hnyav tshaj qub thiab. Cheem nws tseem nyob saud, yog kho no los muab txog nqis nws mam hais seb luag pos kam. Nkawd ciali lees them hnyazog. Thaum noj rooj mov tiam txivneeb, yawm txivneeb tias:
-"Kuv ua tag lawm ces pobxyab/thajneeb yeej tsis tau nrhiav lawm ntag....". Sd pe pig poog...Noob qes co nto... Even ciasiab tias lub txim saum ntuj DIM lawm, tabsis, lub txim ntiajteb no pos DIM maj?

TseemYeej.

[yag...@gmail.com]

yuav tsum paub seb ua neeb dabtsi...tsi yog "nyuam qhuav yog ua neeb xwb" nawb. nws yog "IB THAJ NEEB HAIB HEEV"..

muaj neeb kho menyuam quaj taug
muaj neeb kho ntsuj
muaj neeb kho hleb
muaj neeb kho ntsuj qau
muaj neeb tsa cov tuag rov los ua neej
muaj neeb ua kom sis hlub

nug seb 2niam txiv no ua neeb dabtsi ma...es peb thiaj paub tham ma

[me]

In this case, since there was no prior contract on fee, just refuse to pay. Then negotiate for a reasonable fee. By paying $3000, these people have actually promoted abuse. By tradition, ua neeb is not an enterprise based on money. In fact, excessive charge causes affront to the neeb spirit (txhaus dab neeb), which could bring ill to the shaman.

In a free-market economy, price is based on demand and the willingness to pay. Cut off demand and the market will become depressed. Fee will come down.

BTW, people need to avoid being trapped by the fear of God or spirit, so they can avoid being exploited.

Teev



On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 8:52:38 AM UTC-8, minyuam...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> Thaum tus pog neeb tuaj ua neeb tag, nws thiab nws tus txiv nkawv hais tias nkawv yuav yuav $2500, plus ib $100 ib leeg rau nws tsib tug uas tuaj saib neeb. Total ntawm thaj neeb yog $3000 tag nrho. Nqi noj haus, thiab tsiaj tshu twb tsis tau xam.
>

> Surprise?

[souako...@gmail.com]

Minyuam thiab TseemYeej,
Twb tau li yuav muaj ob xyoo los lawm muaj ib yawm kwv tij hu tau ib tub txivneeb tuaj ua neeb saib tsev. Tsis hais nqi tsis hais abtsi tsuas thov tuaj ua neb saib tsev dawb xwb vim ua npaum suav phem. Yawm txiv neeb ua neeb txog tog fi xov los rau yajceeb hais tias lawv tsev muaj vij muaj sub ntau heev yuav tsum tau 24 lag yog $2400 mas txiv neeb thiaj li saib mus. Tus leej txiv hais rau nws tus tub hlob hais tias me tub koj niam wb tsis muaj $2400 koj puas muaj. Tus tub teb leej txiv tias txiv kuv muaj kawg tos os! Tus tub mus kiag ntawm tus txiv neeb nraub qaum tsawv nkaus niag txiv neeb nqa mus tsos rau nraum zoov hais rau tus txiv neeb "koj tuaj qhov twg tuaj rov mus qhov ntawd tam sim no" niag txiv neeb cia li hle thi hauv khiav msu tsev lawm. Kuv hais rau yawj kwv tij hais tias zaum no muaj plaub xwb lau! txhaum luag dab neeb lawm. Tus tub hais tias yog muaj plaub tuaj cia kuv mam lav. Twb tau ob xyoo lawm tsis hnov xov qhov twg tuaj, lawv tsev neeg noj qab nyob zoo tsis muaj mob, tsis muaj tuag!!!! tsis poob nyiaj!!!

[tsee...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 8:34:03 AM UTC-7, souako...@gmail.com wrote:
> Minyuam thiab TseemYeej,
> Twb tau li yuav muaj ob xyoo los lawm muaj ib yawm kwv tij hu tau ib tub txivneeb tuaj ua neeb saib tsev. Tsis hais nqi tsis hais abtsi tsuas thov tuaj ua neb saib tsev dawb xwb vim ua npaum suav phem. Yawm txiv neeb ua neeb txog tog fi xov los rau yajceeb hais tias lawv tsev muaj vij muaj sub ntau heev yuav tsum tau 24 lag yog $2400 mas txiv neeb thiaj li saib mus. Tus leej txiv hais rau nws tus tub hlob hais tias me tub koj niam wb tsis muaj $2400 koj puas muaj. Tus tub teb leej txiv tias txiv kuv muaj kawg tos os! Tus tub mus kiag ntawm tus txiv neeb nraub qaum tsawv nkaus niag txiv neeb nqa mus tsos rau nraum zoov hais rau tus txiv neeb "koj tuaj qhov twg tuaj rov mus qhov ntawd tam sim no" niag txiv neeb cia li hle thi hauv khiav msu tsev lawm. Kuv hais rau yawj kwv tij hais tias zaum no muaj plaub xwb lau! txhaum luag dab neeb lawm. Tus tub hais tias yog muaj plaub tuaj cia kuv mam lav. Twb tau ob xyoo lawm tsis hnov xov qhov twg tuaj, lawv tsev neeg noj qab nyob zoo tsis muaj mob, tsis muaj tuag!!!! tsis poob nyiaj!!!

Dr.Suav,

Kuv ho tsis tau pom txog khaab ko, tejzaum, tos tus tub ho hais tau li los vim nws lawb dab ntev lawm paub. Uali no los, luag yuav xyav-v yus moo thiab.

Kuv li mas, pojniam yeej taij ntau zaus kom nrhiav neeb nrhiav yaig los kho vaj kho tsev. Kuv teb tias:
-"Txawm thov txivneeb, txiv neeb yeej Hem yus xwb, ho mus thov Xibfwb, XibFwb kuj DAG kawg thiab(Yuav kom yus lees lawbDab, nws mam pab). Yog 9/10 los yuav ua kom siab nrig tiag; kuv xum mus thov HaujSam, vim yus tsuas npaj ib lub khaam5(muab ib daig nplooj qhwv 1lub paj nrog 1 tug tsum ciab Thiab ib daim nyiaj $5/$10/$20 ntsaws rau xwb, nyob ntawm yus muab), tsis paub lus Nplog los yus tsuas piavtes tias npausuav phem thov nws pab keb khub. Nws haj paub ntuas lub HaujSam kawg....Nws ntuas tag, yus tsates nuv xwb ces yus los yus tsev li lawm".

Yog mob loj; nti ua lim ua lob, xub hu 911 tso, yog dr. tias licas los tsis dim mam thov. Thaum yus mob loj lawm, luag Txivneeb/Niamneeb yeej pab dawb xwb, yog yuav hais los luag tsuas hais mentsis xyabntawv ua dab qhuas tug xwb.

In summary, we gotta have a good Health Insurance. Yog yus muaj daim nyuag Health card tuav rawv ntawm tes lawm ces Dab yeej tsis lam loojkoov yus li lawm os.


TseemYeej.

[me]

> It looks like the shaman took advantage the family.

By norms, it is difficult for some Hmong to say NO as Hmong are kwvtij neejtsa. This belief, though beautiful it is, unfortunately open some Hmong to abuse and predatory exploitation by ill-intended people.

To avoid fraud and abuse, a line must be drawn between what is customarily considered proper and malpractice. Yep, Hmong do have malpractice in ua neeb ua yaig.

> 1. Any thoughts on methods of prevention?

As Hmong now have access to Hmong news, Hmong can be educated through the news media: (1) Set the fee in advance, (2) pay by market value, eg. fee commonly charged within the community,(3)refuse paying excessive fee - especially fee charged after the fact, and (4) reject demand in the form of cash during "ua neeb" in the name of the spirit (dab) - there is no such thing in ua neeb. The spirit may ask for a certain animal or amount of ntshuas ntawv/xyab, but not cash, i. e. the spirit does not know the greenback but only fake paper money (ntawv nyiaj ntawv kub). If cash is demanded by the shaman during ua neeb, make excuse and pay by check, then cancel it (trick meets trick).

BTW, use the news media to publicize the fraudulent shaman and shame him in public (punch meets counter-punch). Hmong are fearful of public shaming.


> 2. What if the family refuse to pay the fee? How are the shaman and her teams reacted?

By Hmong standard practice, they will threaten with curses to frighten the family into submission for they know that Hmong fear curses. This is their most powerful tool as Hmong believe that a shaman also has the power to cause ill. However, in kev ua neeb ua dab, it is also believed that unjust use of the power of the spirit will backfire on the shaman for his power is meant to do good only.

> 3. Is it legal or illegal for such a shaman to take advantage of their clients like this?

Fraud or price gouging is illegal. Without a contract, the shaman has no basis to sue in court. They will not file a complaint to the elders for they know the elders will decide based on common practice, which will disadvantage their position and will open themselves to public scorn and condemnation.


> 4. Is it really that the shaman exploited the family of their fear of evil God and or spirit? Does evil spirit and God exist?

Hmong believe that a shaman has the power to heal and to cause ill (tso dab tom). Where there is fear and belief, there are predators.

Whether God or spirit exists is not the issue here. The issue is the grip that God or spirit has on the mind of people.

> 5. Is the "neeb" necessary, even if lawv tsawv tau tus neeb ntawv?

Of course, it is not. Try yourself. Make a list of shamans. Flip the goat horns down the list and you will eventually get someone. If you run out but strike no shaman, repeat until you make a hit. To further info on shamanism, read about Taoism.


> 6. What are the ethical concerns in similar case?

By the standard practice of ua neeb kho, in the old country, the shaman was given the head along with a front quarter of the pig. Very often shamans were opium addicts, so an ounce or two of opium would be included. Shamans by mission were meant to heal the sick and cure the ill. They were not supposed to enrich themselves through their service. Their main benefit was the honor and gratitude that people accorded them.

As the saying goes, money and power corrupt. In America, with the perceived power that they wield and the money that they desire, our shamans have become corrupt. For some shamans, ua neeb is no longer a practice to heal but to steal in whatever forms and tricks they could jig together. In terms of ethics, Hmong are still down the basement.


Teev

[donyhm...@gmail.com]

On Friday, December 11, 2015 at 8:18:37 AM UTC-8, minyuam...@gmail.com wrote:
> Well say Teev,
>
> As you stated, the most difficult part is the saying of "no", vim txoj kev ua kwv ua tij. I also like to comments that not all Hmong shaman are bad, and have these desire of exploiting Hmong families. But you are absolutely correct that some have totally bad-ass money hunger, as a shaman. So much shame for wanting so much money, when the truth reality of their duty is to "save life---cawm seej---cawm neeg txoj sia" free of charge, with the exception of receiving the pig head and half-pig shoulder.
>
> What I dont' get it, is that of the difference between "cov neeb tshiab and cov neeb qub".
>
> Case Example # 1: Neeb qub: Yog thaj neeb tsis yog thaj loj loj, ces yeej txiv neeb yeej tsis kam yuav nyiaj, tab sis tsuas yuav lub tau hau npua. Yog thaj loj loj, ces tsuas yuav $1200 xwb. That its....
>
> Case Example # 2: Cov neeb tshiab: Ua thaj neeb twg mas hais lub hmoob xwb. Tseem muaj kam hais lub rau cov tuaj saib neeb, es hais kom cov saib neeb teb rov qab rau nws, es nws thiaj li paub yuav ua neeb txuas ntxiv. Cov neeb tshiab no lawv tsis yuav ntsiaj (no animal sacrifice), but lawv yuav paj xyoob paj ntoos, thiab real money xwb. Feem ntau ces, thaj neeb twg los lawv yeej make a lot of money ($100-$500).
>
> Case Example # 3: Cov neeb qub. Yawm thaub txiv neeb ho tsis siv tsiaj, thiab ho tsis kam yuav nyiaj. Ua neeb luv luv, tiam sis ho siv pob zeb thiab muab ntawv puab ua tej tsej coj mus kho mob xwb.
>
> Case Example # 4: Cov neeb yeeb: Yawm mam tuaj ua neeb, mas yuav kom yuav yeeb rau nws haus mas nws thiaj kam ua neeb. Yawm kuj siv tsiaj, yuav nyiaj, yuav yeeb, tab sis mas ua neeb sai sai (30 minutes to 1 hour xwb). Haus yeeb ua ntej ua neeb, ua neeb tas mas haus yeeb. Tsis kam noj mov li....
>
> ah....so many variation of the Hmong neeb. Which is the truth, which is the fake, which one should you choose when decided a neeb?

Merry Christmas rau Nej os cov me phoojywg,

Oib Oib nej mas ua li cas cov txiv/niam neeb los txhaum nej tsis tas li cov xibhwb los txhaum nej. Kuv saib nej kuj cav kiag ib qhab nab neeb thiab xib hwb ua raws li nej nyiam xwb las mas...Dony

[Vaj Ncuab]

Kwvntxawg Dony;



Rev. Joel Osteen the Senior Pastor of Lakewood Church nyob Houston, TX. hais tias, tibneeg nrhiav Vajtswv yog thaum pw tim tsev kho mob lawm. Yog thaj maum (doctor) tsis kam kho thiab npaj rho yas lawm xwb mas Joel hais tias txhua tus neeg mob uas Joel mus saib xav kom Joel pab thov Vajtswv kom nws tus mob zoo. Tus Hmoob mas txawm tsis teev kevcai qub or tsis ntseeg kevcai tshiab los thaum tag sim neej kawg ua kevcai qub (Quab kev, tshov qeej tu sia, tshov qeej tsa nees, qeej tshais, qeej sus, qeej hmo thiab qeej sawv kev mus nws tus ntsuj tus plig thiab mus cuag tau pog tau qawg, mus thawj tau thiab thiab tau niam tau txiv tshiab. Or ua kevcai tshiab xwb.

[tsee...@gmail.com]

On Friday, December 11, 2015 at 9:02:15 AM UTC-7, minyuam...@gmail.com wrote:
> The parts that I don't get the most are like what you says, yus nyob dawb nyob huv, tiam sis yog mus ntsib neeb, ces neeb yuav hais tias yus muaj dab, yus tau ua neeb kho. Yog mus ntseeg vaj tswv, ces thaub xwbfwb yuas dag loj loj kom yus ntshai ntshai tias muaj dab phem tiag tiag, es kav tsej muab xwm kab hlawv pov tseg, ces rau rau siab mus tso ib feem kaum tom nws lub church (what a nonsense).


Minyuam...awd,

Yog yus tsis meejpem, lam tau lam mus tham nrog tej neeg dogdig nram no, koj yeej ntsib teebmeem xwb.

-TxivNeeb(shaman): Tsawg lwm los yeej xaxov saum qaum ntuj los tias tus mob ntawv tag lawm, Ntxwjsisnyoog saum ntuj tsis tseev li yuav tsum them nyiaj txaus-s, luag mam tso tus mob rov los.

-XibFwb(Christianism): VajTswv thiaj yog tus zoo xwb, DabNtxwgNyoog yog tus phem, yuav tsum lawb Dab ntxwgnyoog xwb. Meaning, yus zoo siab muab yus li 1/10 pub tswv Yexus thiaj yuav dim.

-Islamic: Fuabtais ntuj Allah tias yog xav mus saum ntuj CeebTsheej sai-ai, there is a short cut, yuav tsum tua Allah cov yeebncuab; txawm tub ceevxwm tua yus tuaG LAWM LOS, yus YEEj tau visas straight to Heaven.

VajNcuab awd,

Joel Osteen cov lus ces hais li kuv hais xwb thiab las mas. Yog yus daim mev Health Card tsis pab lawm ces, kawg rov mus thov txiv neeb/ XibFwb/HaujSam/ Islamic xwb las mas.

TseemYeej.

[Vaj Ncuab]

Uncle TseemYeej;


Yog tim cev nqaij daim tawv (physical) muaj mob ces Thaj Maum kho zoo, tabsi yog tim ntsujplig (spirit) ces kawg ua neeb or thov Vajtswv (nyob ntawm ntseeg). Yog Thaj muam kho tsis tau lawm, neeb los tsis kam ua, Vajtswv los tsis kam thov ces kawg tuag xwb. Kuv tus kwv nws yuav tau tsev tshiab, tabsi tus tswv tsev tuag rau hauv lub tsev ntawd lawm, lawv mus nyob mas pheej pom taws teeb, hnov mus kev, qhib TV, tso dej, thiab lub tsev mas txias txias, leej twg los tsis kaj siab, thaum kawg ua rau lawv muaj mob.

Kuv yawg kwv 9 neeb 10 tsawv los tsis chwv, luag hais tias luag xub txawm, dab lo tsis kam lawb ces thaum kawg ua twj ywm mus de zaub, mus nyob apartment, tso tsev pov tseg, txawm yog down $50,000 tsis xum yuav.

[tsee...@gmail.com]

VajNcuab & Minyuam,

Kuv li kuv yeej tseem coj qub kevcai nawb(Coj Dab TubNkeeg), kuv tsis coj DabTshiab os. IbXyoos ntujzeeg kuv mam nrog kwvtij nkaumtawqaib ib zaug thiab txixwmkab ib zaug nkaus xwb. Yog lawv muaj yeem xyoo los yus mam mus nrog luag ua xwb tiag. Kuv muaj 2-3 pab kwvtij diam:
-Pab niam txiv ib plab yug, nyob Fresno,
-Pab thoojdab koomqhua nyob Southside Sac.
-Pab sibcoj siblaw nyob (Northside), ze-e kuv no xwb.

Hnub no, peb tseem yuav mus nkaum taw qaib laiv. Vim luag tus ua hlob tsis ncoqab lawm, zejzog noj tag lawm, yus mam noj los tsis ua cas. Tej no ces yog poj yawm tug xwb, tej metub menyuam(nest generation) yeej tsis quavntej li lawm.

Tej nyuag pheej pom-m ub pom no, yog yus yuav lub tsev ntawd lawm ces kawg muag, hos xauj(rent) xwb ces qi kauv txhais xwb las as.

TseemYeej.

[tsee...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, December 12, 2015 at 5:05:13 PM UTC-7, minyuam...@gmail.com wrote:
> tseemyeej
>
> cas kuv yuav nqhis kaw taw qaib thiab taub hau qaib ua luaj li.
>
> kuj nqhi quav nyuj iab nrog laj nyoos. tseem nqhis taub hau npua kawg li.
>
> peb hmoob mas txawj ua nqaij noj kawg. zoo siab tseem coj qub kev cai es thiaj tau noj nqaij thawm niaj thawm xyoo.

Minyuam awd,

Yog nqhis npaum koj hais tiag, tuaj nrog kuv noj hmo os. Kuv nyuam qhuav mus nkaumtawqaib thiab huplig tag nrho no. Pojniam menyuam tabtom tseev qaib, ib pliag no ces tau saib taw qaib ntag hov.

Tuaj nawb, tuaj nrog kuv kaws taw qaib os. Kuv phone yog 916-215-0106. Tuaj kuv tos koj nawb, yog dhau 8:00PM lawm kuv yuav mus noj tom lawv lawm laiv.

Sib ntsib dua,


TseemYeej.