What's "Hu Plig"?
Xoua Thao
The answer may look very easy, but this question is now facing the MN
Supreme Court as oral argument took place on 2/4/99. The case involves
a Hmong person who was robbed and physically assaulted with a knife by
the American defendant. As a result, the victim's family had peformed
the "hu plig" ceremony. Now the costs of one pig, two chickens, the
torn vest, and fees for the the Shaman's service are at issue.
Even though the defendant has has been convicted and jailed, MN allows
the victim to receive restitution. The MN law states: "A victim of a
crime has the right to receive restitution as part of the disposition of
a criminal charge ...against the offender if the offender is
convicted....A request for restitution may include, but is not limited
to, any out-of-pocket losses resulting from the crime, including medical
and therapy costs.....and funeral expenses."
The District Court said yes to the restitution order to have the
defendant paid the Hmong man. The Appellate Court said no, saying that
"hu plig" is a religious ceremony, and under US law is against
separation of church and state. No restitution payment. Now the MN
Supreme Court must decide.
Who do you think? Should "hu plig" be constituted a healing measure or
a religious rite? Should there be compensation for the Hmong victim?
Suav
drpao
I'll post my reason later....
Pao
--
Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com
Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email -- always at Talkway.
BABYFALL
>From: Xoua Thao <XT...@prodigy.net>
>Date: Fri, Feb 5, 1999 13:48 EST
>Message-id: <36BB3CFB...@prodigy.net>
>
>Is Hmong "hu plig" a religious or healing ceremony?
To my understand, it is a healing ceremony, not a religious. How can " Hu
Plig" be falling in to the religious category?
BF
Mose Xiong
I don't know, to me "hu plig' is a religious ceremony, such as when
performed once a year with the hard-boiled egg thing. I understand
that it can be used at other times, but usually to set things right
"with the spirit", like "ua neeb kho mob" and "fiv dab" or something
like that....
I still think it's a religious ceremony, therefore, I go with "No, the
man should not be recompensated in this instance."
Sau Npe,
Aiv Loj ( don't have a Hmong name, this is what grandma used to call
me.)
BABYFALL
>From: emm...@mindspring.com (Mose Xiong)
>Date: Sun, Feb 7, 1999 02:26 EST
>Message-id: <36bd3ec7...@news.mindspring.com>
I disagree that the Hmong "hu plig' and other ceremony is a religious. If it
is, could any Hmong teach some white to 'hu plig' or 'ua neeb'??? Please
explain the definition of "Religious" to me.
Thanks.
BF
drpao
treatment and NOT just a religious practice.
Hu Plig can be applied to many situations but in most case, and
especially on this case, it is used as a form of therapeutic treament.
After sufferering from such trauma as this man, he would have sufffered
from a mind-body disturbance commonly known as "stress". If he manages
to resolve this stress, he would not require any treatment. But if he
continues to suffer from the effect of this stressfull event, he will
have some significant health related problem as part of his
psycho-biological maladjustment. Some people will continue to have
sleep disturbance, nightmare, anxiety, depression, decrease sexual
drive, family disharmony, intestinal disturbance, lethargy, ache and
pain, recurrent infection and in the worse cenario... decrease immune
system leading to cancer and death.
In this situation, these people will required intensive psychotherapy
of many months with or without medications.
For the Hmong, the most effective form of psychotherapy is "hu plig" or
"ua neej kho". It is simple, quick and works magnificantly.
Why and How?
How exatly this happen remains to be debated but it is well known in
the circle of Medical Hypnosis that similar psychotherapy "would
provide a special psychological sate in which the patient can
reassociate and recognise his inner psychological complexities and
utilise his own capacities in a manner in accord with his own
experiential life...Therapy, such (as hu plig), result from an inner
resynthesis of the patient behavious achieved by the patient himself...
It is this experience of reassociating and reorganising his own
experiential life that eventuate in a cure". (Ref: Rossi E.L: "The
Psychobilogical of Mind-Body Healing. New Concpets of Therapeutic
Hypnosis", Norton Professional book, 1986 p.88).
Hence, "hu plig" can be viewed as a form of effective and appropriate
psychotherapy for this Hmong man - he has received a form of
therapeutic treatment.
Pao
On Sat, 06 Feb 1999 00:12:52 GMT "drpao" <dr...@usa.net> wrote:
> The short answer is yes.
>
> I'll post my reason later....
>
>
>
> Pao
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, 05 Feb 1999 12:48:27 -0600 Xoua Thao <XT...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> > Is Hmong "hu plig" a religious or healing ceremony?
> >
nee...@yahoo.com
baby...@aol.com (BABYFALL) wrote:
> I disagree that the Hmong "hu plig' and other ceremony is a religious. If it
> is, could any Hmong teach some white to 'hu plig' or 'ua neeb'??? Please
> explain the definition of "Religious" to me.
>
> Thanks.
>
> BF
>
If 'hu plig' and 'ua neeb' is not religious or relate to religious, why Hmong
Christian do not practice 'hu plig' or 'ua neeb'(the way of SivYis) any more?
Christianity, the pastor leads the sing and pray (the way of Jesus).
They have some similarity?????
N
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
main...@my-dejanews.com
nee...@yahoo.com wrote:
> If 'hu plig' and 'ua neeb' is not religious or relate to religious, why Hmong
> Christian do not practice 'hu plig' or 'ua neeb'(the way of SivYis) any more?
>
> Christianity, the pastor leads the sing and pray (the way of Jesus).
>
> They have some similarity?????
>
> N
You are incorrect in saying Christians do not practice hu plig. Remember that
Catholics still perform Hmong rituals--hu plig, ua neeb, ntees tuag etc. It is
only strict Protestants who don't do it. Catholics are also Christians.
Hu plig is a healing ceremony. Religious ceremony entails something you do on
a habitual basis such as going to church on Sundays, praying before a meal,
or if you are Islamic, bowing toward Meca five times a day etc. Hmong people
do not perform hu plig on a habitual basis. Unless it is established that the
person is not well, or that if the ceremony is not done, the person will
become unwell, Hmong people do not hu plig. Thus, this is not merely a
religious ceremony. It is a healing ceremony, or an intervention ceremony,
done to prevent the advent of sickness. Also, in hu plig, shamans do not call
on Saub or some form of God to come and heal. This ceremony, therefore, is
not equivalent to praying. It is not a ceremony of faith which the patient
depends on a higher power, but a ceremony of necessity which the patient
believes his soul is called back to his body. Again, Dr. Pao has talked about
the psycho-social aspect of what this then does to the patient [and his
family as well]. Hu plig cannot be considered a strictly religious ceremony
although it does have a religious tone. Also, one last reason why hu plig
cannot be considered a purely religious ceremony is that one does not have to
be a shaman to perform the hu plig ritual. While only a shaman can ua neeb,
any distinguished elder who is familiar with the intricacies of the ritual
can hu plig.
Mai Na
Xoua Thao
ntau. Nej cov tau tawm tswv yim lawm los muaj lus zoo siab. Cov tseem
tshuav laj lim tswv yim zoo, los kuv tseem vam tias nej yuav tsis ua
siab deb.
Rooj plaub no muaj tiag, tsis yog lam muab sau hauv no los suav sim, los
yog dib sawv daws tswv yim. Nws yog ib yam tshiab tshiab rau lub xeev
peb nyob no es rooj plaub no thiaj li nce mus txog rau lub state's
supreme court. Vim peb Hmoob nyob lub xeev no coob, tej teeb meem li
rooj plaub no tseem yuav muaj ntxiv tuaj. Yog li no, qhov Hmoob yeej
thiab swb cai zaum no yog ib yam tseem ceeb.
Yog li no, thiaj thov ntau tswv yim nrog nej cov laus, hluas, tub kawm
ntaub, ntxhais kawm ntawv txhua tus saib nej xav li cas. Zaum no yog
Asmeslivkas ua rau Hmoob, nyob tsam lwm hnub ho yog Hmoob ua rau Hmoob
no ne, txoj cai puas yuav txawv?
Tshwj xeeb rau nej sawv daws nkauj muam, kwv tij Hmoob txhua tus. Ua
tsaug ntau.
Suav
Mose Xiong
>is, could any Hmong teach some white to 'hu plig' or 'ua neeb'??? Please
>explain the definition of "Religious" to me.
>
>Thanks.
>
>BF
Like any rites, anyone can learn to "hu plig". The question is just
will others have faith in the one performing the rite. I don't see
why anyone can't learn it if they want, but I think it's useless for
an outsider to learn it if no one is willing to go to that person for
it. It's like, if I turned from being a Christian to a Moslem, I
would just learn the Moslem ways of prayer and other rites.
"Hu plig", I believe, is generally a resettlement of the spirit back
into the host. If it does have any medical values, then it's because
of the faith put into it.
For instance, "hu plig" has no value to a new born, just to the
parents / guardians involved. As I understand it, this is a rite for
a newborn having last a week or so. But I don't see any advantages to
the child.
In the instance that "hu plig" is done on an adult, it is like a
Catholic going to confessions. There is the faith that this rite
would settle the spirit back in the body and return the body to
normal.
Anyway, I believe this whole "hu plig" thing is about faith, which
would put it in the religious realm, and not the secular.
Oh, and about religious, I don't have a dictionary on hand, so I can't
give you an official definition. Anyway, I'm sure it differs from
people to people, but in my opinion, being religious is having faith
and practicing that faith of what the eye cannot see. Sometimes, you
just know without knowing how you know...
Anyway, that's all I have time for tonight...
Marxfree
about praying for a mental health patient at the hospital room means?
Does that praying relate to religious practice? Thanks in advance
for the answer. ----Marxfree
drpao wrote in message ...
nee...@yahoo.com
> Catholics still perform Hmong rituals--hu plig, ua neeb, ntees tuag etc. It is
> only strict Protestants who don't do it. Catholics are also Christians.
It's my ignorance of not being aware of a Hmong Catholic being a 'Txiv
Neeb'and practice 'hu plig'.
Ok…if 'hu plig' is a healing ceremony or a form of therapeutic treatment of
the mind, what is ‘ua plig’?
Do I confuse myself between 'hu plig' and 'ua plig' or are they the same? Is
'ua plig' also involved in 'hu plig' most of the time?
I can understand the ‘hu plig’ as an attempt to heal or prevent someone from
being sick or recover from stress/anxiety. However, the ‘ua plig’ which
involve in ‘hu plig’ most of the time does not apply to healing of any kind
but an uplifting spirit of that individual. It resembles happiness and
gratitude.
Most of the time a ‘ua plig’ is involved after the individual has been through
difficult time such as illness, being robbed, involved in accident, shoot out,
being in jail, or etc. Well…at the same token, “ua plig’ also takes place to
uplift the spirit of an individual who has achieved a certain accomplishment.
So, is 'ua plig' also a healing ceremony?
Celebration, may be?
N
sib...@hotmail.com
nee...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
> > Catholics still perform Hmong rituals--hu plig, ua neeb, ntees tuag etc. It
is
> > only strict Protestants who don't do it. Catholics are also Christians.
>
> It's my ignorance of not being aware of a Hmong Catholic being a 'Txiv
> Neeb'and practice 'hu plig'.
>
> Ok…if 'hu plig' is a healing ceremony or a form of therapeutic treatment of
> the mind, what is ‘ua plig’?
>
> Do I confuse myself between 'hu plig' and 'ua plig' or are they the same? Is
> 'ua plig' also involved in 'hu plig' most of the time?
>
> I can understand the ‘hu plig’ as an attempt to heal or prevent someone from
> being sick or recover from stress/anxiety. However, the ‘ua plig’ which
> involve in ‘hu plig’ most of the time does not apply to healing of any kind
> but an uplifting spirit of that individual. It resembles happiness and
> gratitude.
>
> Most of the time a ‘ua plig’ is involved after the individual has been through
> difficult time such as illness, being robbed, involved in accident, shoot out,
> being in jail, or etc. Well…at the same token, “ua plig’ also takes place to
> uplift the spirit of an individual who has achieved a certain accomplishment.
>
> So, is 'ua plig' also a healing ceremony?
>
> Celebration, may be?
>
> N
>
How about "tso plig"?.
Again, the problem here is the people. Keep fighting for your belief.
Sibtham
fo...@mninter.net
opinion, religion is something people perform on a routine base like
going to church every week on Sunday. I am leaning more towards
referring to "hu plig" as a ritual, but because my family gave up this
tradition 2 generations ago, my words do not weight very much in comparison
to others that still regard it as alternative healing.
Because this matter is most crucial to our culture and may impact our
future generation in MN, it will require more deeper discussion
outside of this forum. Moreover, it's a question that strictly need
answers and agreement from the majority of those who still practice
this tradition.
I think this is worth while to propose constant discussions on the
Hmong TV, Kev Koom Siab and coverage for newspapers (Hmong Tribune &
Hmong Times), so that the whole community or the majority can
comprehend to whatever the law may conclude.
te...@montgomery.cc.nc.us
> > is, could any Hmong teach some white to 'hu plig' or 'ua neeb'??? Please
> > explain the definition of "Religious" to me.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > BF
> >
>
> Christian do not practice 'hu plig' or 'ua neeb'(the way of SivYis) any more?
>
I wouldn't use the "Hmong Christianity groups" as the reason. Nowdays, many
Christians didn't even celebrate Hmong New Year - preferrably "Tsiab Pebcaug"
anymore. I believe we were confused between religion and culture.
Take care,
Teng
> Christianity, the pastor leads the sing and pray (the way of Jesus).
>
> They have some similarity?????
>
> N
>
drpao
This is a gray area and it is open for debate, depending who you are
talking to. I don't think that any one has the answer yet.
All we can say is that every one of us do pray - in various way and in
different setting and circumstances. To some, praying is to the psyche
and medical treatment is to the body. It may be true in some case but
it is too simplistic to generalise in that way... as there is no real
separation of the psyche (the mind) and the body. To complicate things
more, when you put the mind and the body together, there is still
something missing about the functioning of a human being.
For me, I have no definite answer.
But here is the cureent thinking on the subject (for the purpose of
discussion only)....
There has been recorded stories, verified stories, that by praying
alone can stop massive bleeding in the patient, cure life treathening
illness eg. cancer. How this happen is open to interpretation. Is it
the will of God? (or yug txoj hmoo)? May be. Is is just to do with the
psyche? Perhaps. Or is it to do with the Quantum field of energy around
us?... most probably... and this seems to be the line of thinking today.
Acording to Quantum physiscists, we live in a Quantum Field of energy
that affect every thing around us and inside us. This is outside the
God-factor (or spirit factor in the Hmong's case). When you break a
pencil into smaller and smaller ... there are just proton, neutron and
electrons... If you continue to break it down to smaller & smaller
particles... it eventually "disappear" to be just energy as part of
this vase quantum field - that we all share.
So... if you can combine these energy together in the right
sequences.... eventually, you will have your proton...neutrons ect...
and eventually you have your pencil in its physical form! Some 5000
years ago, a disciple asked Budhha, "Is such thing as a miracle?".
Budhha answer, "Yes... but miracle only happen to people who can
control their mind". It is known that throughtout history there are
people who can make things out of the thin air! ...in our present
day...and one such person is Sai Baba of India.
If this theory is right then one may venture to say that praying or hu
plig is just different way of reaching the Quantum Field in such a way
that it has the capacity to heal - to have a therapeutic effect (or
even a negative effect) on the person.
*** This topic can produce a few more PH D!! Any one interested? **
After all, what the Hmong are practicing for thousands of years may
turn out to be right things... who knows?
Pao.
Ref: Please read the book "The Holographic Universe", Stories of Sai
Baba and there are also many books on Shamanism, Quantum Physics -
especially on the Quantum field, as well as books on Neuro-linguitic
programming" and books on "The power of the mind", especially on the
subconscious and superconscious (quatum field).
tou...@my-dejanews.com
main...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
[Neeb89 wrote:]
> > They have some similarity?????
> >
>
> You are incorrect in saying Christians do not practice hu plig. Remember that
> only strict Protestants who don't do it. Catholics are also Christians.
>
> a habitual basis such as going to church on Sundays, praying before a meal,
> or if you are Islamic, bowing toward Meca five times a day etc. Hmong people
> do not perform hu plig on a habitual basis. Unless it is established that the
> person is not well, or that if the ceremony is not done, the person will
> become unwell, Hmong people do not hu plig. Thus, this is not merely a
> religious ceremony. It is a healing ceremony, or an intervention ceremony,
> done to prevent the advent of sickness. Also, in hu plig, shamans do not call
> on Saub or some form of God to come and heal. This ceremony, therefore, is
> not equivalent to praying. It is not a ceremony of faith which the patient
> depends on a higher power, but a ceremony of necessity which the patient
> believes his soul is called back to his body. Again, Dr. Pao has talked about
> the psycho-social aspect of what this then does to the patient [and his
> family as well]. Hu plig cannot be considered a strictly religious ceremony
> although it does have a religious tone. Also, one last reason why hu plig
> cannot be considered a purely religious ceremony is that one does not have to
> be a shaman to perform the hu plig ritual. While only a shaman can ua neeb,
> any distinguished elder who is familiar with the intricacies of the ritual
> can hu plig.
>
Maybe we should just enlarge the definition of "habitual" to qualify "hu
plig" and "ua neeb" as being religious. It's for our own benefit right? I
mean the Habsburg Catholics and the Protestants twisted "God's" edicts (as
well as other historical facts) to further their own agendas, why can't we?
And if Hmong elders can perform "hu plig" then let's just consider them all as
being part-time religious people. Sounds good enough to me. I mean, Christians
only go to church on Sundays too, right? haha.
*Ok, I really don't know what I'm talking about here :)
Marxfree
drpao wrote in message ...
>Ref: Please read the book "The Holographic Universe", Stories of
Sai
>Baba and there are also many books on Shamanism, Quantum Physics -
>especially on the Quantum field, as well as books on Neuro-linguitic
>programming" and books on "The power of the mind", especially on the
>subconscious and superconscious (quatum field).
>
Thanks again Dr. Pao, it is very interesting to read and understand
the two different concepts of psychical healing.
Marxfree
d_q...@my-dejanews.com
"drpao" <dr...@usa.net> wrote:
<snipped>
> It is known that throughtout history there are
> people who can make things out of the thin air! ...in our present
> day...and one such person is Sai Baba of India.
Sai Baba is a cheat and he has been caught in at least 4 movies cheating on
"creation" of ash, a necklace, and a ring. One such movie is "God Lives In
India", a movie that is watched by Sathya Sai devotees.
Keep an eye on his hands no matter what. DO NOT look at his face, always keep
your eyes on the hands. There will come a time when the right hand will move
under the left hand -- the left hand holds the letters and the vhibuti -- and
there is a transfer of material from the left hand to the right hand and soon
after the right hand will circle and create vhibuti. There is also a very
close, clean shot that shows him moving the right hand under the left hand
and the material is transfered to the right hand, then Sai Baba takes the
letters from the left hand and cleans the left hand as if he is cleaning off
dust from the left hand, then he takes the letters back from the right hand
and immediately starts circling his right hand to 'create' vhibuti. How can
he be God/holy and lie about his powers at the same time?
There are other problems with Sai Baba:
I got the following from:
http://psg.com/~ted/bcskeptics/sbmir/db-book.html
The above link is an online book -- the whole book -- that analyses Sai Baba's
supernatural powers. Its a must read for anyone interested in any way in Sai
Baba.
44 - Sai Baba's First Statement About the Meaning of the Star of Bethlehem:
Christ was born. A huge aura of splendour filled the sky with light. This
was a sign that He had overcome the darkness of evil and ignorance. The light
of Love had come into the world. it was the dawn of the era of Divine
Guidance.
Sai Baba, quoted in Eastern View, p. 6.
45 - Sai Baba's Second Statement About the Meaning of the Star of Bethlehem:
The bright star that appeared on His Birthday was the same bright star
which appears once every 800 years. The bright star appeared because of its
own natural pattern, not because of Jesus. Emotional people say this star
appeared for Jesus. There is no rule that bright stars must appear when divine
energies or Divine Incarnations descend to earth. In their emotion about
God devotees spread sentimental stories.
Eastern View, p. 156.
He can't even keep the same story, how can he be God as he claims that he is.
In one of his books I read that he said that Jesus and Mohammad were not
prophets, but they were social movement leaders. So, Sai Baba is a cheat
altogether.
The following link has the experiences of a couple of Sai Baba's ex-devotees
who accuse him of sexual molestation. Sai Baba likes young boys/men.
http://www.mtsac.edu/~dlane/point4.html
And here is what one of Baba's own students has to say about him. There are
other students who accuse him of the same sexual behavior for over 30 years.
> From: ka...@cse.ogi.edu (Meenakshi Srikanth)
>
> Prologue :
>
> This article is not in defence of what the students tried to do
> (attempt to kill Baba) recently. I do not know anything about the incident
> other than what I read in misc.news.southasia. Those students might have
> been motivated by things other than in this article to do what they did.
>
> The following is a chronicle of my experiences in Sri Sathya Sai
> Institute of Higer Learning. These happened a good 4 years ago. But not much
> has changed, can change in this place.
>
> Strong reader discretion is advised. If you are a strong devotee of Baba
> Please desist from reading further.
>
> You have my word about the truth of this article and nothing further.
>
> All flames will be nuked (Tsk, tsk, Mixed metaphor, Scotty! :-))
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Sri Sathya Sai Baba : The good, the bad and the ugly
> ----------------------------------------------------
>
> Introduction : This is a brief intro to Baba. Those who know about him may
> skip this.
>
> Sathya Narayana was born in Puttaparthi, a remote village in AP
> border(with Karnataka), 65 years ago. Legend has it that, he left home when he
> was eleven, proclaiming that he has a mission to fulfill in life. He declared
> himself the incarnation of Shirdi Sai Baba (who had attained samadhi in late
> 1910's).
>
> Today he commands an international devotional gathering that has more
> than a million people from all over the world in it. In India, the list
> includes P.V.Narasimha Rao, S.D.Sharma, R.Venkataraman,Chandrashekar
> CMs of AP, Karnataka, Maharashtra and Madhya Pradesh, Singers S.Janaki,
> P.Susheela, M.S.Subbulaxmi, artiste Lalgudi Jayaraman, Sportsmen Gavaskar,
> Shastri, Kapil Dev and a host of other illuminaries.
>
> He runs the autonomous university, Sri Sathya Sai Inst. of Higher learning
> and the hospital Sri Sathya Sai Super specialities hospital. He has
residential
> 'mandirs' in Ooty(Sathyam), Hyderabad(Shivam), Madras(Sundaram), Bombay and
> most importantly, Bangalore (Brindavan).
>
> A word about SSSIHL: SSSIHL runs in three places: HQ in Puttaparthi(Boys
> only), a branch in Whitefield, Bangalore(Boys only) and a branch in
> Anantapur(Girls only). Courses are offered in Arts, Science and Commerce and
> the instritute offers Bachelors, Masters and Doctorate degrees. There is also
> an MBA program. There are no professional courses(though there was a plan for
> a medical program).
>
> I studied in the Whitefield branch. The college in Whitefield is a small
> structure of three important buildings. The college is at the west end of
> the campus and across a football field, in the center, is our hostel and in
the
> east end is the Bungalow-cum-Mandir where Swami stays whenever he comes to
> Bangalore ( about 5-7 times a year).
>
> Sathya Sai Baba : The good
>
> Sathya Sai Baba is an excellent orator in Telugu and his speeches can be
truely
> inspiring and motivating. He does not have a radically new philosophy or a
> style of religion. He preaches the age-old values of dharma, ahimsa, prema,
> sathya and shanthi (the five pillars of human values, as he calls them).
> However, he does them in so effective a way, that his devotees, atleast most
> of them, make a sincere attempt to follow the ideals and practice them in
> real life. It is this that makes the numerous charity programs and social
> activities organised by the Sathya Sai Organisations so popular and well
> attended.
>
> 'Seva Dals', as these organisations are called, are admirable units run by
selfless
> and motivated individuals who do a lot of very good social work like
organising
> medical camps for impoverished people(I have visited many of these and they
> are run in clean surroundings, by well qualified people and reach the poorest
> among the poor who come flocking there), food camps, adopting villages etc.
> There is very little propaganda element in all these activities. There is just
> a solitary decorated portrait of Swami in the center of the activities but
> other than this, no preaching goes on to those who are being served.
>
> The Institute that is being run by Swami is entirely free. There is no tuition
> fee charged from any of the students at any level. I hear that the Hospital
> that was recently(two years ago) opened is also free for the patients.
>
> I am not able to think of anything else that is important to write here. I
> want the reader to just carry the impression that the women and men who are
> sincerely devoted to Swami have their lives transformed. You will understand
> this if you visit the house of any devotee. I have often been impressed by the
> quietness, serenity, religious purity and solemnity that I found there. I have
> found that most of these people talk softly, do not get angry easily and have
> a very peaceful life. If you go to Prashanthi nilayam (Puttaparthi), you
> will find the whole place to be like this. I will quote an incident that
> happened. In the mandir complex in Puttaparthi, one is not supposed to smoke.
> Once, a sevadal member saw a person smoking and went and requested him not to.
> The person got irritated and asked, "What will you do if I just continue
> smoking?". To this the sevadal member quietly replied, "I will just keep on
> asking you not to smoke till you stop".
>
> It is truely amazing how a single person can cause such a transformation in
> so many minds.
>
> <to be continued>
> Sathya Sai Baba : The bad
>
> /* To those of you who jumped into this section straightaway - please go and
> read the above section and then come to this. */
>
> It is not the intention of this article to pass any judgement about the
> personality under consideration. I will leave it to the reader to analyse the
> good and the bad in forming her/his own conclusion.
>
> One may wonder as to how Swami has such a huge following( I gather that among
> all religious leaders, sans probably the Pope, Sathya Sai Baba is the one with
> the biggest following in the world). The answer is a single word : Miracles.
> The unbelievable happens as a day-to-day affair in Puttaparthi or Bangalore
> or wherever Swami happens to be on a given day. A mere circling of a palm and
> out comes, vibhuthi(sacred ash), watches, rings, necklaces, pendants and what
> not. He does this almost everyday and recipients of his bounty include
> common devotees in the darshan line and the VIP devotees in the interview
rooms.
> In this section, I shall tell you how he does all these. He claims he is the
> God incarnate of the Kaliyuga("Yuga Avathara...Sai Rama.." goes one of the
> bhajans). When this claim is coupled with his daily routines of
> materializations, it gives a staggering image of a super-human personality to
> which people fall a ready prey.
>
> Before I tell you about these, a few words about the routine of Swami on a
> normal day would be needed. Swami wakes up at around 5:30am and gets ready for
> darshan which starts around 8:00am. We students gather outside his mandir (in
> the driveway) at about 7:45 am. He comes outside, talks to some of us, to some
> other VIPs who might have come(On a fine morning during the Reliance cup '87,
> the whole Indian Cricket Team (except Srikkanth :-( ) had come!) and proceeds
> to the place where the public are assembled. As a routine, he collects letters
> from his devotees, names newborn babies, blesses new couples etc. Then at
> around 9:15, he comes back and goes inside the mandir. After this, the
> interviews start. During his rounds, he would have (arbitrarily) selected from
> among the devotees a select few who would be given interviews on that day. He
> provides counsels to these people till about 11:30am. Again in the evening,
> the same thing happens (no interviews in the evening). After darshan, we have
> bhajans inside the mandir and occasionally Swami gives an address. Sometimes,
> some students give talks.
>
> Miracles. A few days after I joined the college, during darshan time, Swami
> was casually talking about the power of meditation or some such thing when
> all of a sudden he waved his hands in the air and produced a pendant
containing
> a beautiful picture of Lord Muruga as in Pazhani. I was stunned. I had not
> seen anything like that before. I was not a devotee when I joined the college
> ( I joined because my father asked me to) but this was something which really
> shook me. I went back to the hostel and waxed eloquent about the power of
Swami
> to some of my seniors. They nodded sagely and gave a cryptic smile. It was not
> very long when some of them called me aside and said, " Don't start believing
> all this stuff. It does not take much to become a devotee but it takes a lot
> to come out of it". Saying this, one of them waved his hand and produced
> vibhuthi and another produced a ring. Then they told me all.
>
> The simplicity of this thing is going to baffle you. So, be prepared for an
> exposition of gullibility of the common man.
>
> Swami produces things out of 'thin air' by turning his right palm facing the
> ground and rotating it(parallel to the ground) a few times. He then makes a
> sudden motion upwards(as if he is plucking a low lying fruit) and gives out
> whatever he has produced. The mechanism of doing this is simple. When he comes
> out of the mandir, his left hand will be holding a kerchief or a letter or
> his flowing robe. Don't look at his smiling face or his swirling right hand or
> his overflowing hair. Look at his left hand: clutched in the palm with
(mostly)
> the middle finger, ring finger and the little finger is whatever he is going
to
> give out that session. Vibhuthi pellets (those of you who have seen him give
out
> vibhuthi will recollect that he makes a powdering action with his fingers when
> he is actually delivering), rings or whatever. Just keep looking at this hand.
> There will be a time when a devotee will fall at his feet or when he will lean
> forward. At that time the stuff would get transfered to between the fingers in
> his right hand. This would be visible too(if you are looking for it). Very
soon
> thereafter, the 'materialization' would take place.
>
> Right, so you think this method is so stoooopid that even a goat would have
> found it out by now. Let me tell you something, just practice this a few
times.
> And try it out on your friends. You will be surprised by their surprise. I
can
> do this easily now and have fooled many of my friends. Only I don't call
myself
> god or have VIPs fall at my feet.
>
> I have seen these things happen hundreds of times. I have received vibhuti,
> laddu and stuff like these myself. In our hostel there was a coterie who knew
> about all these tricks. We used to have a ball of a time in the darshan line
> and used to share the hilarious experiences after the show is over. A couple
> of experiences would be in place.
>
> Once, Swami was out of the mandir and was collecting letters. He had a small
> silver pendant in his hand which we had all seen when he had gone past us in
> the line. He had transfered it to his right hand and was just waiting for
> someone to give it to, when a devotee from a back row extended a letter.
> Swami bent forward and out stretched his right palm to receive it. It was a
> fine Bangalore morning, the sun was out and the pendant in his hand was
> gleaming for all to see! We went black and blue for a second and suppressing
> a threatening-to-explode laugh, looked away. Swami went ahead, unperturbed,
> and gave the pendant to some important looking guy down the line. We were
> talking about this for a whole week and even thought of writing a letter to
> Swami asking him to be more careful.
>
> In another occasion, a singer had come to Brindavan and we were inside the
> mandir listening to him sing. Swami wanted to give him a watch and it was in
> readiness beneath his left thigh in the sofa on which he was sitting. I was
> sitting in the third row from Swami and was keeping a 'close' watch. The
> song got over and Swami shifted in his seat a slight bit and the watch was
> now in his left hand. He bent forward and moved the watch to his right hand.
> I saw this and looked up and saw that Swami was watching me! I turned red but
> so did Swami! He started shifting around a lot, asked one of the students to
> change the direction of the table fan and when the audience was looking away
> put the watch back into his left hand. Now, the student who was changing the
> fan was a nervous wreck with everyone watching him and whatever happened,
there
> were sparks flying out of the socket! Soon a few other students went there
> to set it alright. By now the watch had gone back to below the thigh. That
> singer never got it that day(I really felt sorry for him). The next day
> morning, in the darshan line, Swami came near me and opened his right palm
> before my eyes and said, "Hmm..Namasivayah! ( He called me this since I used
> to give talks in Tamil and started all my talks with "Namasivayah vaazhga!
> Naadhan thaaL vaazhga!"), nEthu ennannavO ninaichaachu! raathiri ennannavO
> swapnam kandaachu! paarthukkO! oNNum illa! Doubting Thomas! Doubting Thomas!".
> I wish I could have asked him to open the left palm then since,I knew he had
> something there! Well, now this seems funny, but at that time I got very
scared
> and wrote a very apologetic letter to him!
>
> There are a couple of other standard tricks that he does. During Dussehra, he
> does a Vibhuthi abhishek of Shirdi Sai Baba. He gets a small pot and turns
> it upside down and shows there is nothing in it. After this, he puts his hands
> inside the pot and vibhuthi starts flowing out. Even a goat with a rational
mind
> would figure out what he is doing. Take a pot, fill it with vibuthi and
solidify
> it with some water and let it stand. Till you disturb it, nothing will fall
out.
>
> Another thing that he used to do was materialize linga. He does this by
> regurgitation(yes!). He makes motions as if he is trying to get it out of his
> nabhi and soon enough, has it out of his mouth. You will find plenty of these
> if you visit the museum in Puttaparthi. The way he does this is also simple.
> There is always a queue of trusted lieutenants(sp?) who stand beside him
> and pass him white hand kerchiefs on which he would eventually place the linga
> that 'comes out'. In one of these kerchiefs, the linga itself will come and
> all he has to do is to take it close to his mouth and make a motion as if the
> linga just dropped into the kerchief. I have not seen this myself(he no longer
> does this) but I have seen videos of this. My point is, once you have proved
> that one of his miracles is magic, the rest don't need any proof.
>
> Some students in the college always know these and live a life of forced
> devotion and false pretense. They have to, for if they don't life can get very
> unpleasant. The parents of most of these students are very ardent devotees
> whose lives have been defined by their devotion to Swami. It would be
impossible
> to convince them that Swami is not what they think he is but only a cheap
> charlatan doing popular tricks. The lives of these students are truely
> pitiable. They live a constant Jeckyll and Hyde life from which there is no
> reprieve.
>
> But lives of some students are more horrible.
>
> <to be continued...>
>
> Originally, I had divided this article into two parts - the first part
> about things in which I had a first-hand experience and the second part
> about things in which I do not have first-hand experience. But the first part
> got so big that I decided to post it in two parts. So this is the part about
> which I do not have any personal experience (thank holy heavens for that!)
>
> This article is more sensitive than the previous two. I would advise extreme
> reader discretion before proceeding ahead. Do not read ahead if you have
> anything to do with Sathya Sai Baba.
>
> DO NOT FLAME ME.
>
> You have been warned.
>
> Sri Sathya Sai Baba: The ugly.
> -----------------------------
>
> Yes, I do not have personal experiences in these. But I know what I am going
to
> write is 100% true because I have heard first-hand accounts of these bizarre
> things. I have looked at enough circumstantial evidences along with these
> witness' accounts that I have no hesitation in telling that the following is
> true.
>
> How do I start telling this to you, gentle reader?
>
> In my very first few days in our hostel, I had the distinct impression that
> something ugly was going on in the hostel about which everone knew but no one
> wanted to talk. Whenever Swami came to Bangalore, there always used to be a
> few students who got interviews every other day. These students were often
> referred to as those who are 'in form'(a cricket analogy) with Swami. These
> students were among the most privileged in the hostel. They could go outside
> the hostel(a student is allowed to go outside the hostel only during
vacations)
> as and when they like and behave specially. The wardens and the lecturers used
> to consult them before anything significant was done in the hostel. These
> students kept within themselves for most of the time.
>
> I was preoccupied with my own troubles and did not keep any close look at
> these, though I was curious. When I got to know about Swami from my
> seniors, they asked me if I noticed anything strange about the hostel. I told
> them. They smiled and asked me to keep an open eye, promising that they would
> tell me all about it soon.
>
> It did not take me very long to find out what was different about these
> students. They were all gay. Now, kindly bring down those raised eyebrows, my
> dear reader. All the indications, body languages, special jokes about husband
> and wives etc were there and it did not take a sleuth's effort to divine what
> was going on. I told about this to my seniors and the fact they told me was
> startling to say the least.
>
> Many of these students were made gay ('sodomized' would be an unrefined word)
> by Swami, who himself is a gay.
>
> I did not believe it when they told me this. But not long after, I heard the
> experiences as narrated by the students who had undergone the trauma
> themselves. Now, it so happened that a couple of these students were Tamils
> with whom I became friendly quite soon. One of them used to tell me
> harrowing stories. When Swami was in Brindavan, he used to get the call for
> interview atleast once in three days. Whereas a student when he gets an
> interview is usually so elated and pleased that Swami has recognized his
> devotion etc. this boy, lets call him Nandan, always have a grim face as he
> walked into the bungalow. He never attended classes those days in which he
> got an interview. I have often seen him show marks in his chest and chin
> and say things like, "innikku kadichtaarudaa!", followed by a flow of choice
> words of slang. Nandan often used to get covers from Swami in public and
> sometimes he would be asked to open it. It would contain crisp hundred rupee
> notes. There is another word for giving money for such acts.
>
> Nandan was helpless. He could not go home and complain. His family and
> parents were devotees for 30 years and their very lives have been defined
> around Baba. Nandan since he knew the world has been knowing Swami and none
> else as god. He was first initiated into doing this by Swami when he was in
> school. Swami told him that he(Swami) was the only purusha in the world and
> the whole world was his wife. Nandan was asked to think of himself as Radha
> devoted to the Krishna. Nandan's whole attitude towards life is now
> irrevocably changed.
>
> There was this another guy, Kumar(say), who was called for interview for the
> first time. He was so elated. That afternoon, a bunch of us went up to him
> (he was our junior) and asked him what happened. He had a blissful look in
> his face when he said this. "Swami asked me if I had Stomach ache. I said
> that by Swami's grace I don't. Swami laughed and said 'why do you have to hide
> it from me? tell me do you have a stomach ache?'. I don't know why but I said
> yes. Swami said he will cure it and produced Sandalwood oil from thin air and
> rubbed it on my stomach and below. I will never forget the experience".
>
> We did not need such proofs, however. It was always obvious. Jokes with
> double meaning(yes!), pattings on the cheek, pinching students(He had the
> horrible habit of putting the hand inside the shirt pocket and pinching
> the chest) and such crap. Students who entered this quicksand of
> destruction, whether willingly or otherwise, lead an unspeakable life.
> Devoted students held them in awe and the students who knew the 'stuff'
> either despised them or pitied them. And they had no recourse.
>
> There were students who went dangerously close to such a fate and escaped.
> My friend, Ramanan(say), was high in the hit list when, he smartly
> realised this and moved out of sight by not attending Bhajans or hiding
> in the back rows etc. That was a time when I was in the hit list too, but
> our guardian angels intervened in the form of a summer vacation.
>
> Towards the end of my stay in the place, the disease was only spreading.
> I was in Bangalore. In Puttaparthi (where we used to go some 5 times a year)
> things were far worse in numbers. I have heard that one out of every 10
> students are gay either directly by the big man or transitively. The
> atmosphere, an all-boys place with zero outer-world exposure for a
> prolonged period during adolescence is only conducive to such a thing.
>
> This, in my opinion, is the ugliest part of Swami. We used to divulge
> the information about Swami to our juniors('baptisation') and many
> times have had, among ourselves, whether it is advisable or not. I had
> always said that it should be done if only to make them realise about
> this ugly part.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Epilogue : Writing this whole series, even the last part, was incredibly
> easy since all the incidents are so indelibly impressed in my mind. Not
> that I want to look back to it. Apart from this aspect we had a great
> time, great fun in Bangalore. More the restrictions, more the fun in
> breaking them :-). I made some of my best friends in Bangalore.
>
> Suffice to say, it was an experience of a lifetime.
> --
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> M.Srikanth (ka...@cse.ogi.edu)
> 18361, NW Heritage Pkwy #1, Aloha, OR 97006. (503) 690 9520.
Please e-mail me if you have any questions. Thanks.
OneHeart
::You are incorrect in saying Christians do not practice hu plig. Remember that
::Catholics still perform Hmong rituals--hu plig, ua neeb, ntees tuag etc. It is
::only strict Protestants who don't do it. Catholics are also Christians.
Please enlightened me as what they do (be specific if you may...thanks) that
Hmongs do in "hu plig".
::Hu plig is a healing ceremony. Religious ceremony entails something you do on
::a habitual basis such as going to church on Sundays, praying before a meal,
::or if you are Islamic, bowing toward Meca five times a day etc.
Only with regards to Christians here, if going to church on Sundays is a
"habit", then perhaps the reason/motive for going is not meaningful. One
should go because one has the "desire" to go and draw close to God among the
other people who are there. Perhaps for some, it may be a "habit", but I
would hope that it's not the case for others. Going to church is not a
ceremony. It is a choice to be close to God.
- SNIP -
::done to prevent the advent of sickness. Also, in hu plig, shamans do not call
::on Saub or some form of God to come and heal. This ceremony, therefore, is
::not equivalent to praying. It is not a ceremony of faith which the patient
Please enlightened me here with what shamans do call to?
OneHeart
::Maybe we should just enlarge the definition of "habitual" to qualify "hu
::plig" and "ua neeb" as being religious. It's for our own benefit right? I
::mean the Habsburg Catholics and the Protestants twisted "God's" edicts (as
::well as other historical facts) to further their own agendas, why can't we?
No...though others may have done it, let us not do it. Do not twist what is
God's.
::And if Hmong elders can perform "hu plig" then let's just consider them all as
::being part-time religious people. Sounds good enough to me. I mean, Christians
::only go to church on Sundays too, right? haha.
::
::*Ok, I really don't know what I'm talking about here :)
Christians do not "only go to church on Sundays". They can go anytime they
wish. Events at church does not necessarily have to be on Sundays. Though
the primary day of gathering for worship is on Sunday, other worship times can
be set at another day.
jennni...@gmail.com
> ><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: What's "Hu Plig"?
> >From: emm...@mindspring.com (Mose Xiong)
> >Date: Sun, Feb 7, 1999 02:26 EST
> >Message-id: <36bd3ec7...@news.mindspring.com>
> >
> >baby...@aol.com (BABYFALL) wrote:
> >
> >>>Subject: What's "Hu Plig"?
> >>>From: Xoua Thao <XT...@prodigy.net>
> >>>Date: Fri, Feb 5, 1999 13:48 EST
> >>>Message-id: <36BB3CFB...@prodigy.net>
> >>>
> >>
> >>Plig" be falling in to the religious category?
> >>
> >>BF
> >
> >I don't know, to me "hu plig' is a religious ceremony, such as when
> >performed once a year with the hard-boiled egg thing. I understand
> >that it can be used at other times, but usually to set things right
> >"with the spirit", like "ua neeb kho mob" and "fiv dab" or something
> >like that....
> >
> >I still think it's a religious ceremony, therefore, I go with "No, the
> >man should not be recompensated in this instance."
> >
> >Sau Npe,
> >
> >Aiv Loj ( don't have a Hmong name, this is what grandma used to
>
>
> Thanks.
>
> BF