VP's contradicting claim of his 65 yrs ruling
syan...@hotmail.com
he has been the hmong leader for 65 years. however, a close analysis
of his life and non-hmong elected leadership tenure, his claim is
absolutely false! he was born in 1929, he said, and now he is 78 years
old. if he has been ruling the hmong for 65 years as he claimed he has
been, then at the age of 13 in 1944, he was already the hmong leader.
but studies showed that in 1944, he was only a courier, carrying
messages for touby lyfoung, who was the only hmong leader until the
early 1960s, when cia, to inspire the hmong to fight harder against
the communists in northern laos in order to save the lives of the usa
troops in south vietnam, engineered a "national reconstruction plan"
to build roads, schools, and hospitials in hmong areas, including a
palace in long cheng for the lao king. the plan meant to
unconsciously, peacefully transfer power from touby lyfoung to vp,
who, from cia perspective, was an excellent leader, who might be
sacrified the hmong to save the lives of the troops. cia was right!
vp, to be admired by the cia, recruited hmong men, including children
as young as 10 yrs to fight against the communists. so, since vp
became the hmong leader in the early 1960s, the hmong lost thousands
of lives more than any other losses of lives in hmong recent
hisotry.
syang05
csy...@hotmail.com
wrote:
vp was born Hmong leader. He became Hmong leader in his mom's womb,
didn't you understand?
csy
ctj
What is your point?
For a moment there I thought I was reading a passage out of “tragic
mountain”.
If you want to impress us why don’t you do your own research rather than
paraphrasing what some western journalist conjured up.
I have not heard Vang Pao’s speech or under what context it was used in.
But, from your tone it appears that you have a bone to pick instead of
seeking the historical truth. Investigate the topic and share with us
something we don’t already know … minus the venom.
Thanks
--
Message posted using http://www.talkaboutculture.com/group/soc.culture.hmong/
More information at http://www.talkaboutculture.com/faq.html
Born2beHmong
a while there, i thought that you had made such concrete assessment
about fgvp's speech, as i listened to you further, it seen as such a
schalor as you, it sounds as you had turned to be one of
BeeMouaChaofa. who has no principle and ethics, and he would lament
upon anything that comes across his mind. it is sad to see such an
educated being wasted.
Born2beMhong
zhen
yawg syang puas yog shoua yang, ph.d. tim uw-madison naj? kuv tsis
paub nej cov thaub laus zoo zoo huav no thaib naj.
Pao
As a Hmong scholar, I find your post very interesting became some of
your statements are true but your explanation/conclusion seem to more
puzzling if not out of track or not being the reasons.
Let me just touch on few issues - very superficially (more detail will
be available soon).
First, VP is technically has not been THE Hmong leader for 65 years -
but VP has been A LEADER since he attended primary school. Since his
early childhood, he was well known to be a leader among his peer, in
his family and the among the villagers. The talk of the town was that
when VP grew up, "Nws yuav yog huam nab Laib or Hauv Nab Hmoob".
VP has lived to his expectation.
During his early age with the Hmong Militia with Touby and his service
with the French and the Royal Lao Army, he was a common officer, out
of place and out of time. Even he was a Major in the Royal lao Army
but he was not fit for any job - no soldiers under him, no specfic or
significant responsibility.
But he was there and noted by all for his idiosyncrasies and the many
problems that he caused to others and to himself.
But VP is man of destiny. There are some half dozen assassination
attempt on his life but he survived and the only explanation, if any
one care to analyze the events of those assassinations, is that VP yog
tus neeg MUAJ HMOO tiag. Sometimes, only and just a split of seconds
that change the entire sequence of the assasination plan and VP walked
out safely even he was not even aware of the plot (if any one watch
the movie, :Run LOLA run... you would understand what I mean).
VP may have feel his destiny. When he went to his early lifr, he acted
as he was the leader, doing his own thing, in his own way. He was the
man out of his time> But all that has prepared him well for waht to
come later - until his "calling" came in the after-match of the Kong
Le coup d'etat when Bill Lair went to Laos to LOOK FOR VP.
(see my little book: How the CIA found the Hmong - based on the
interview with Bill Lair).
So, here we have the right formula: the right time, the right place
(Padong) and the right people come together (VP+Lair). Here TIMING is
the magic. VP time had come to him in full... at the magic time!
(Today there are many Hmong potential leader but their MAGIC time has
never arrive yet... but it will come! but no body know WHEN, WHERE or
WHO and WHO - that is the intriguing thing for us all).
When he was at Longcheng, doing his own fighting, the Laolum had
trouble in Vientiane with the Phoumi Nosavan coup d'etat, the
Commander of the 2nd Military Region was in the wrong side and when
the Phoumi coup was crashed, the Commander of the 2nd Mil region was
removed AND it just happened that VP was at RIGHT place, at the RIGHT
time, and being the RIGHT person for the job. VP was appointed as the
new Commander of the 2nd Mil Region and became a general.
As far as the Lyfoung are concern, VP had tactically removed the
Lyfoung to be marooned in Vientiane, playing with politic with the
Lao, and Ly Vang Tongpao to joined Kong Le in Vang Vieng. I have not
heard any where that the CIA had anything to do with it. Bill Lair
was only interested to have VP to fight the communist. He did not
even know other Hmong personalities (based on my impression when I
talked to him on the phone and my long discussion with him when I was
his guest at his ranch in Texas in 2004). Hence, the Lee force was
effectively removed as early as 1965. This gives VP the unobstructed
way to structure the ruling of the Hmong with the new wave of Chao
Mouang, Nai Kong, Tasseng, the Court system in Longcheng ect... with
no interference from the Lyfoung and the Tongpao and others.
From all the materials that I have read over the last 25 years, in
Lao, YThai, English, french and Vietnamese, I have not found any
information to support your statement that the CIA has any plan to
"...unconsciously, peacefully transfer power from touby lyfoung to
vp,..).
As far as I have learned, the CIA has no plan for the Hmong - except
the only plan that Bill Lair put to VP to establish Sayabouri as the
fall-out base for the Hmong in eastern side ogf the Mekong. VP was
too busy and he did not implement Bill's Sayburi plan. Attempt was
med after the fall of Phou Phathi but at that time Bill Lair had left
Laos and the new CIA chief knew nothing about the Sayabouri plan.
Worst still, the US had already decide to give Laos to the Lao
communist and the US only concentrate on South Vietnam - Peace with
honor - exit strategy. The US had already washed their hands out of
Laos as early as 1968... and when VP requested for the new wave of
refugees as part of the after-match of the fall of Phou Phathi, to be
removed to Sayabouri, the US Embassy was not even considered it!
The lost of lives under VP...
This is true that ONE Generation of Hmong had died during the 13 years
of VP in Laos. This is a huge lost when we look at it retro-
perspectively. But in reality, during the war, as I had lived thru
the war since I was 10 days old, it is simply a reflection of the
bravely and commitment of the Hmong elders to defend their livelihood
in Laos. As VP told Lair, the Hmong can either fight or flee. VP
decided to fight and that was the history on the Hmong in Laos. And
after 1975, the Hmong were face with the same choice - to submit or
fight, to flee. We know what happen to those three groups as we are
the by-products of their 1975-decision and much of the current Hmong
problems are the by-products of the decision of 1975.
On the other side of the coin, one can contemplate the WHAT IF... What
IF VP decided in 1961 that "The Hmong to flee"... WHERE WOULD THE
HMONG BE TODAY?
WHAT IF the Hmong did not follow VP? We had to be fair that VP had
airlift some 2500 out of Laos as part of his group to FLEE Laos. What
would happen IF we let those 2500 people flee alone and the rest of
the Hmong stay in Laos?
VP told the Hmong to stay in Laos. Touby told the Hmong to satay in
Laos. Ly Teck told the Hmong to stay in Laos and he even flexed his
real muscles at Hin Heup.. but we know what happen to the Hmong after
1975.
That are the many questions - THOSE questions will stay on the mind of
generations to come and they we can write book about it but we will
NEVER know what happen. WHAT IF>>>>
If What IF... Would be be debated in the SCH as we are now?
More later
Pao
"A drop of ink can makes 1000 think"
On Jul 23, 11:00 am, "syang...@hotmail.com" <syang...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
zhen
many of us already know the limitations of gvp. but talking about his
limitations, including things he may misspeak about, will not do
anything to solve the so-called, hmong national problem. i am reading
your dissertation, if you are the dr s yang that i think you are, you
misspoke a lot about hmong history too. yet, your dissertation was
approved and perhaps accepted as 'fact' by your advisor. the point is,
you have better things to contribute than to expend your energy on gvp
bashing and flaming.
the leadership of gvp already sang his swan song a long time ago. the
voice of those following him seem to be limited to only harsh
criticism, giving not only credence to his national hold on hmong
people, but also strengthening his legacy positively evermore. what a
shame and backfire.
On Jul 22, 9:00 pm, "syang...@hotmail.com" <syang...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
zhen
> your statements are true but your explanation/conclusion seem to more
> puzzling if not out of track or not being the reasons.
dr pao,
thanks for the history.
on another note, when a murder has happened, police detectives must
find a motive. if we are to understand an established scholar like dr
s yang's "explanation/conclusion" so as to avoid a puzzle we should
understand his motive.
i for one, would like to see people speak the truth, and leave out
'venom', especially personal venom.
ctj
A note of caution concerning Bill Lair, A CIA man who to this date still
measure every word he uses concerning the Hmong. I recently spent four
days interviewing the two Hmong men in charge of communications during
war. What they revealed to me is surprising.
Pao
and all that issue about the CIA deal with VP. So far, no one has seen
Lair's 18-page submission that he talked about.
But based on what he said so far and what I can gather from other
Hmong leaders, including my late uncle Thaochay who was stationed in
Udorn and working with Bill Lair from day one (whom I interviewed
twice during my two visits to Thailand when he was living in Udorn and
later at Vinai camp)... there is still nothing more to add to what we
have known up to now.
The interesting thing about VP and Lair is that the two men were like
brothers from Padong but they had not contacted each other or met
since their last meeting at the corridor at the US Embassy in Bangkok
in 1975 until 2006? When I met Lair in 2004, the two men had NOT met
as yet (since 1975).
We just have to wait to see what VP has said about the CIA and Lair in
his 7 recorded tapes that are being held in MN but NOT YET RELEASE TO
THE PUBLIC. The tapes are there alright - I checked with the producer
- but VP has not give the authority to release them. When I met VP in
2004, I asked about the tapes and he confirmed the recording. He said
that he had said lots of things, especially about the US involvement
in Laos and with the Hmong - some very critical issues... I asked
permission to study the tapes but he just said, not right time! So,
if any one can get to VP, may be... ASK VP again to release those
tapes NOW - (the tapes are meant to be put the record straight from VP
perspective).
As far as what happen WITHIN the Hmong groups during the war is
another whole different story that may be one day - when it OK to
discuss - we can talk about it...
Regard,,
Pao
ctj
I was (unassumingly) there for part of the meeting when Lair met with VP
in Dec of 2006. I don’t know if Lair and VP had any alone time as there
were many people around. I introduced myself to Lair and immediately his
ears perked up. We made small talk but I could tell that I was not going
to get anything new from him. He is CIA, God and Country, through and
through.
At that time a heartfelt plea was made to Lair by one of the top Hmong
commander to do something to help the Hmong left behind in Laos. (Which I
was lucky enough to get on video) Since then, according to Roger Warner,
Lair has made two unpublicized trips to Thailand. I don’t know if this
act is too little too late or perhaps was more soul searching for Bill
than anything else.
Warner appears to be very close to Lair. Maybe in the future he can shed
some light on the mysterious 18-pages in his new documentary, “once upon
the time in the CIA.” This trailer that can be found on the youtube. I
have been very critical of this trailer but will reserve judgment until I
see the film in its entirety. I wrote an open rebuttal concerning the
trailer but have yet to receive a response. Go to Google and type in
”open letter to Roger Warner and Bill Lair.” As some of you may be
aware, Warner’s book, "Shooting at the Moon” was funded by the United
State Institute of Peace, a congressionally funded organization.
The question at the heart of the matter is, “what was promised to the
Hmong at Padong?” According to Lair, “nothing was promised to the
Hmong.” According to General Aderholt, who was also present at the
Padong meeting. “Promises were made to the Hmong.” This document is in
my possession.
All4One
Please this is REDUNDANT debate! Regardless of how you view VP's
leadership service to the Hmong...IMO, he has the right to claim
whatever his heart contend for he is the root of where we are today.
jim
On Jul 22, 8:00 pm, "syang...@hotmail.com" <syang...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
tseemyeej
On Jul 22, 9:07 pm, Pao <drpao...@dex.hmoob.net> wrote:
> ……………………………………………………………….Since his
> early childhood, he was well known to be a leader among his peer, in
> his family and the among the villagers. The talk of the town was that
> when VP grew up, "Nws yuav yog huam nab Laib or Hauv Nab Hmoob".
As dr.pao own description, VP was “Huam Nab Laib” and in Lao
Language, Huam Nab Laib means “Gang Leader”. Consequence, Hmong people
should not be mad when the Americans call them “Terrorists”?
> ……………….. The US had already washed their hands out of
> Laos as early as 1968...
That was the year VP, the militaryman, and Lyteck, the intellectual,
crashed on how the war would end. VP said: “Tsog rog yuav yeej yuav
swb yog los ntawm kuv lub ntsis PHOM” while Lyteck insisted on:” Tsov
rog yuav yeej yuav swb yog los ntawm nomtswv tus ntsis PAJKAS (pen)”
and it ended the way Lyteck predicted. That was the real turning
point.
> VP told the Hmong to stay in Laos. Touby told the Hmong to satay in
> Laos. Ly Teck told the Hmong to stay in Laos and he even flexed his
> real muscles at Hin Heup..
If dr. pao should claim to be a scholar, why would he keep babling
badly about the Lys, such as Touby, Lyteck, TongPao, Ly Vang TongPao
etc…To me, I believe that “for an action, an equal reaction will
follow”, if the Lys are all bad, so are the Vang and the Thao. He
ought to remember what he has said; VP was a “Huam Nab Laib”.
Should dr.pao reveal VP’s dirty tricks? How about VP ordering Thoj Yob
to embush Lieutenant LyFue? Or ordering NomTooj to kill Lyteck? Or
ordering T-28 to bomb Yaj SoobLwj?
I guess not.
That's dr.pao's true face.
TseemYeej.
zhen
> As dr.pao own description, VP was “Huam Nab Laib” and in Lao
> Language, Huam Nab Laib means “Gang Leader”. Consequence, Hmong people
> should not be mad when the Americans call them “Terrorists”?
IF, that's a big IF, it was TRUE, one does not imply the other. if vp
was called or predicted to be whatever by any name, hmong people, by
the definition and requirement of 'terrorist', were did not employ
tactics against civilians so as to deter north vietnamese communist
invasion. but, we are not mad when they call us terrorist as much as
we are mad when one of our own refers us under such term, including
one of our own labeling our services as 'mercenaries' as well as
calling one of hmong people's most celebrated heroes, ly lue as a
mercenary.
> That was the year VP, the militaryman, and Lyteck, the intellectual,
> crashed on how the war would end. VP said: “Tsog rog yuav yeej yuav
> swb yog los ntawm kuv lub ntsis PHOM” while Lyteck insisted on:” Tsov
> rog yuav yeej yuav swb yog los ntawm nomtswv tus ntsis PAJKAS (pen)”
> and it ended the way Lyteck predicted. That was the real turning
> point.
in the end, IF, what you are saying is true, then they are BOTH wrong.
for the war never ended, as today, we see, some 30+ years, many former
RLG + CIA soldiers still resisting attacks by LPDR. that the war
ended, is only true to the extent for both men---gvp and lt. for gvp
fled to america eventually, and lt was sentenced to death.
> If dr. pao should claim to be a scholar, why would he keep babling
> badly about the Lys, such as Touby, Lyteck, TongPao, Ly Vang TongPao
> etc…To me, I believe that “for an action, an equal reaction will
> follow”, if the Lys are all bad, so are the Vang and the Thao. He
> ought to remember what he has said; VP was a “Huam Nab Laib”.
dr pao did not say that gvp was huam nab laib. he said that was a
prediction, actually, only 1 of 2 predictions of his leadership---
either huam nab laib OR huam nab hmoob. that means, gang leader or
hmong leader. you seemed to have selected what you needed to pick a
bone.
> Should dr.pao reveal VP’s dirty tricks? How about VP ordering Thoj Yob
> to embush Lieutenant LyFue? Or ordering NomTooj to kill Lyteck? Or
> ordering T-28 to bomb Yaj SoobLwj?
if dr pao doesn't reveal so, could you please reveal? was not ly teck
+ touby all related by marriage? ly teck married gvp's wife. gvp
married touby's daughter? what does this say about hmong and the
struggle for power? just that it was deadly, not peaceful. that's one
thing we have to learn how to do, peaceful transition of power and
responsibilities.
zhen
> + touby all related by marriage? ly teck married gvp's wife. gvp
> married touby's daughter?
sorry, lt married gvp's sister.
zhen
> The question at the heart of the matter is, “what was promised to the
> Hmong at Padong?” According to Lair, “nothing was promised to the
> Hmong.” According to General Aderholt, who was also present at the
> Padong meeting. “Promises were made to the Hmong.” This document is in
> my possession.
of course something was promised, but the interesting thing is, WHAT
WAS PROMISED? was it merely support/arms in battle? or did it extend
to hmong self-sovereignty? according to dr s. yang himself, hmong
political self-autonomy was established and recognized way before the
GVP era. oh well, give me a clue.... or better yet, publish your
findings.
ctj
I still need several more pieces of the puzzle to complete the picture.
However, I can tell you what Aderholt said falls in line with what was
recently quoted in the New York Times by Udorn CIA Station Chief, Laurence
Devlin, “I had been told when I went out there to tell the Hmong we’ll
back them to the end, and if we have to pull out, we’ll pull them out
too.”
I can use all of your help out there. If anyone knows anything,
irregardless of how small or insignificant you think it may be, please
contact me.
Chong
tseemyeej
> in the end, IF, what you are saying is true, then they are BOTH wrong.
> for the war never ended, as today, we see, some 30+ years, many former
> RLG + CIA soldiers still resisting attacks by LPDR. that the war
> ended, is only true to the extent for both men---gvp and lt. for gvp
> fled to america eventually, and lt was sentenced to death.
Salaphoukhoune, his stars were stripped by Souvannaphouma. The 30
years fights were all about scams to make a living, dr. pao's
description is justified.
> if dr pao doesn't reveal so, could you please reveal? was not ly teck
I am more than happy to do so if dr.pao wants so.
> + touby all related by marriage? ly teck married gvp's wife.
Hahaha...Lyteck had never married to VP's wife.
> gvp married touby's daughter? what does this say about hmong and the
And VP had never married to Touby's daughter.
> struggle for power? just that it was deadly, not peaceful. that's one
> thing we have to learn how to do, peaceful transition of power and
> responsibilities.
Did you ever see VP wanted to transfer power to any one? Not even to
Fuabtais LisNtxawg Hahaha.
TseemYeej.
tseemyeej
sister and Vp never been married to Touby's daughter.
You pretend to nkow a lots, but, nothing was right. You may have
mistaken Lyteck to Lauj Mas whose wife was taken by gvp, perhaps.
Hahaha.
TseemYeej.
zhen
> Salaphoukhoune, his stars were stripped by Souvannaphouma. The 30
> years fights were all about scams to make a living, dr. pao's
> description is justified.
the hmong in the jungle are sure making a living?
> I am more than happy to do so if dr.pao wants so.
stand on your own please.
> Hahaha...Lyteck had never married to VP's wife.> gvp married touby's daughter? what does this say about hmong and the
> And VP had never married to Touby's daughter.
those were questions, not statements. the wife was a typo. somehow gvp
was related to touby by some marriage. maybe his son. who knows, i'll
ask people to clarify if you're not interested in clarifying and more
interested in mocking.
> Did you ever see VP wanted to transfer power to any one? Not even to
> Fuabtais LisNtxawg Hahaha.
that's part of the campaign by dr s yang's post, if you've been too
busy with lary. dr s yang makes good points, but he doesn't have to
show his disdain for gvp to talk about the process of peaceful
transition of power + responsibilities. we, hmong, as a group, have to
learn how to do this.
zhen
> sister and Vp never been married to Touby's daughter.
sorry, one of gvp's sister was known as 'niam lis teev', and i thought
maybe that was lis teev = ly teck. i don't know anything about ly
teck, just that he was accused of killing (or master minding the
killing of) hmong at hin herb. and only you come on here to decorate
him as an 'intellectual' w/o any substantiation or validation, yet,
you call hmong terrorists and mercenaries, also, without
substantiation. i don't pretend to know anything, and those were
questions, but like i said, you like to pick a bone. the first time i
heard of ly teck was in JHM's book, tragic mountain, and there is
nothing in there to gloss on his level of intellectual development.
i'd be interested in learning and hearing, if you're willing to share
and can see past your volatile emotions, on what intellectual
accomplishment ly teck had. maybe tou@aa is reading and instead of
providing a story to exonerate ly teck from the hin herb killing ( as
i am grateful for his story), could provide us with some information
on ly teck's intellectual accomplishments and how hmong people were
affected by such intellectual heights.
tseemyeej
> was related to touby by some marriage. maybe his son. who knows, i'll
> ask people to clarify if you're not interested in clarifying and more
> interested in mocking.
lot and he who knows a lot will talk little.
>stand on your own please.
Hahaha..pao tawv tsis tuab li koj thiab kuv ov. Nyob tsam nws lam
shock laiv.
TseemYeej.
zhen
> No need to clarify, it's just telling he who knows little will talk a
> lot and he who knows a lot will talk little.
can't answer a simple question? it's clear, who is the problem, and
who wants to be part of the solution. like lary said, blabbing $10,000
doesn't mean you walked a little or a lot.
> Hahaha..pao tawv tsis tuab li koj thiab kuv ov. Nyob tsam nws lam
> shock laiv.
no need. for someone who called a whole people, hmong, terrorist and
mercenaries, and take dr pao's words out of context to equate
prediction of gvp to stereotype and justify the hmong contribution to
the fight for democracy and freedom as terrorism. that's the main
point. don't stray too far off. shock xwb dr pao tsis ntshai, tiam si,
self-destruct no mas, lawv ntau tus ceeb thiab.
Pao
....deleted...
> By law, VP's "lub ntsis phom" ended when he ordered to bomb
> Salaphoukhoune, his stars were stripped by Souvannaphouma. The 30
> years fights were all about scams to make a living, dr. pao's
> description is justified.
>
> > if dr pao doesn't reveal so, could you please reveal? was not ly teck
>
> I am more than happy to do so if dr.pao wants so.
> TseemYeej.
Tseem Yeej...
Go ahead... please reveal all ... be my guest.
Thanks in advance.
Pao
listh...@yahoo.com
Syang05,
You are were writing this SCH because of VP. Without VP, you may even
gone to heel. VP's cause will lead Hmong to a different path, no the
old path. Do you just want to be in the US without VP?. No. you can
not. for any good cause, we either have to lost money, or lives.
Think of VP's good cause.
There are pretty of others Hmong Murders you can talk about, the
murders of our Hmong People in our country by the LPDR communist. The
LPDR murdered more Hmong than VP. VP did not murder Hmong, he asked
that all Hmong defended ourselves from the communist, like the US ask
its' soldiers to defend America.
Hmong Freedom II, Lary's enomy
tseemyeej
> sorry, one of gvp's sister was known as 'niam lis teev', and i thought
> maybe that was lis teev = ly teck. i don't know anything about ly
were questions, not statements." then "maybe" then “lis teev=lyteck”.
For your information, the person who is married to vp's sister is not
named "lis teev" either. This is the third time you aimed at Lyteck
and missed by miles. CERTAINTY is mother of all truths. How can you
accuse a person without CERTAINTY? Is it the mentality of Hmong Moral
Law? For all these years, your accusations on Lyteck were based on
assumptions, nothing certain. You have been used by bad elements all
these times. You are just a messenger.
> no need. for someone who called a whole people, hmong, terrorist and
> mercenaries, and take dr pao's words out of context to equate
> prediction of gvp to stereotype and justify the hmong contribution to
> the fight for democracy and freedom as terrorism. that's the main
> point. don't stray too far off. shock xwb dr pao tsis ntshai, tiam si,
> self-destruct no mas, lawv ntau tus ceeb thiab.
If you only think to win over me, go ahead, say what you want. Bottom
line is you will not be yourself until you accept the truth. Look at
those people who disassociated from vp at the earlier years, they
become so independent today. Best of it, they do not need to scam
money out of the SSI people any more. Look at yourself, it is
laughable when you say vp fought for democracy while himself never
allows anyone else to lead the Hmong to a different path of life.
> i'd be interested in learning and hearing, if you're willing to share
> and can see past your volatile emotions, on what intellectual
> accomplishment ly teck had. maybe tou@aa is reading and instead of
Com'on sense, if you think Lyteck was uncivilized then consider
yourself an uncivilized person as well. He was an educated person as
you're now. He was a well groomed person, an attorney and a RLG public
servant, not a barbaric warrior nor a gang leader. His accomplishment?
Here is one; a group of Hmong men asked Lyteck to find them a good
LoojMem. Lyteck simply replied:
-“ Koj tsa muag saib pemtoj ti pemteb, koj yuav pom loojmem sawv nreb
ntawm txoj kev lebthib13. Koj saib pemteb ti pemtoj, koj yuav pom
Loojmem sawv zoj ntawm zos lav 52”.
Therefore, km52 grows steadily for 39 years, despite the absence of
its founder. It has became the save haven to Hmong refugees and symbol
of Hmong assimilation into the Lao main stream. Person at your caliber
should be able to see the differences between adopting an idol and
adopting an idea.
TseemYeej.
zhen
> were questions, not statements." then "maybe" then �lis teev=lyteck�.
so, "a true scholar" does not ask question? how are people and
students and especially a "true scholar" supposed to learn? hrm..?
cool down. i know you're trying to make me look bad, but let's start
to talk productively, will ya?
> For your information, the person who is married to vp's sister is not
> named "lis teev" either. This is the third time you aimed at Lyteck
> and missed by miles. CERTAINTY is mother of all truths. How can you
so, maybe my source was wrong. i'll call him again, but i was given
information on GVP's siblings. again, i never met the man, and even
though i am a vang, am not directly related to his vang clan. again,
are you part of the problem or do you strive to be part of the
solution? do you want to continue to ingrain that i know not what i
know not? pick a bone.
> accuse a person without CERTAINTY? Is it the mentality of Hmong Moral
> Law? For all these years, your accusations on Lyteck were based on
> assumptions, nothing certain. You have been used by bad elements all
> these times. You are just a messenger.
those were accusations/allegations, i said that many times. if you
want to discuss this seriously beyond your emotional eruptions... but,
that does not take away that many people claim to have witness and in
one published book, that's quite authoritative on hmong history during
the secret war, ly teck was blamed and guilty of the hin herb
massacre. why don't you publish something to the contrary, so a true
scholar won't have to ask questions and may consume the information?
> If you only think to win over me, go ahead, say what you want. Bottom
is that what you think? don't impose your fears upon others. who said
anything about winning or losing. i responded in all sincerity at your
mis-analysis of how prediction of gvp from an early age could justify
calling and labeling hmong as terrorists. go back, read it carefully,
aightz?
> line is you will not be yourself until you accept the truth. Look at
> those people who disassociated from vp at the earlier years, they
> become so independent today. Best of it, they do not need to scam
> money out of the SSI people any more. Look at yourself, it is
gvp doesn't get under my skin like he does to you. the new generation,
we look for a new direction and new leaders. we don't insult gvp and
those who have come before us to bring us to this great nation.
scamming? do you have proof, or is this accusation and allegations?
> laughable when you say vp fought for democracy while himself never
> allows anyone else to lead the Hmong to a different path of life.
he fought for democracy because he fought under the patronage of
america's effort, in the name of FREEDOM + DEMOCRACY, against their
allied fear of communism, dictatorship, and facism. basic history,
really. nothing too complex.
you seem to say 2 things. on one hand, you discredit gvp and all his
efforts (he did not bring you to america, he is not a good leader),
but on the other hand, you give him all the credit in the world (that
he is so influential and controlling, no new hmong leaders have been
able to lead the hmong differently). which one is it? i see new hmong
leaders and potential hmong leaders cropping up everyday w/o
obstruction from GVP. but, the real problem may be, he has undermined
you or those of your group, and so this is sour grapes? (sorry, that's
another question, i'm not a true scholar).
> Com'on sense, if you think Lyteck was uncivilized then consider
> yourself an uncivilized person as well. He was an educated person as
did i use the word uncivlized? or are you putting words in my mouth so
as to make me look bad? who's trying to win over who? seriously, i'd
like to learn more about him. i admit my ignorance about his
intellectual development. i have referenced where i got the story of
ly teck as a person who killed innocent people fleeing from communist
invasion. pray tell.
> you're now. He was a well groomed person, an attorney and a RLG public
> servant, not a barbaric warrior nor a gang leader. His accomplishment?
> Here is one; a group of Hmong men asked Lyteck to find them a good
> LoojMem. Lyteck simply replied:
> -� Koj tsa muag saib pemtoj ti pemteb, koj yuav pom loojmem sawv nreb
> ntawm txoj kev lebthib13. Koj saib pemteb ti pemtoj, koj yuav pom
> Loojmem sawv zoj ntawm zos lav 52�.
thanks for the story, seriously. but, does this exemplify the extent
his intellect?
> Therefore, km52 grows steadily for 39 years, despite the absence of
> its founder. It has became the save haven to Hmong refugees and symbol
> of Hmong assimilation into the Lao main stream.
what he merely said is the reason for such progress? i have too many
questions for you, but a) i won't be a true scholar by asking
questions and b) you might take insult/offense to my questioning. but,
just a preview, IF km52 was such a contribution to laos by lyteck, why
was he sentenced to such a fate? in some context, 'assimilation' is
nothing to be proud of, especially cultural context; it requires a
significant level of involuntary identity deletion. are you saying,
lyteck helped to erase the hmong identity? did ly teck's intellect see
that assimilation was the only viable, pragmatic means of
coexistence?
> Person at your caliber
> should be able to see the differences between adopting an idol and
> adopting an idea.
you know what my caliber is? kuv yog me nyuam hmoob xwb. that's it,
not a true scholar, not a scholar, but just a curious mind adventuring
and learning. idols and ideas? how about something more genuine like
truth....
cheers.
Moobsib
teebmeem txaus lawm. Luas txawm yuav has qhov twg yog, tsi yog los yog
tas has le ntawd yuav ua rua luas muaj kev thaajyeeb hab nyobxeeb ces
tsi txug txij twg. Yog tas luas tug laug tseem muaj tej tomtxwv
tseebtsim kws yuav muaj positive los sis negative impact rua yug tsoom
Hmoob lawd, yog txaus has kuas muaj kev pheejxeeb, cobphum hab nceqeb
zoo rua yug haivneeg ces, kuv xaav, yeej tsi txhum dlaab tsi.
Txawm peb yuav nyag muaj nyag ib xeem los peb suav dlawg yeej yog ib
tsob Hmoob. Ua ke ntawd, mej txhua leej yeej paub tseeb tas yog tsob
nyuas Hmoob, zaubntsuab, nuav txoos tsi tau ua ib txooj ces ua dlaab
tsi yeej yuav tsi tsheej, tsi tav raws sab nyam. Mej txhua leej kws
muaj kev kawm txuj sab yeej muaj feem cuam tuav rawv hab tswj nreeg
peb Hmoob lub neej yaav pegsuab. Yog le mas mej tsi tsim nyog coj tug
xeebceem le mivnyuas yau es yuav sib tshum/tshaum cuag yeebncuab.
Txawm yog ib tug has tau tsi tshuam zoo noog los lwm tug tsim nyog
yuav taw qha rua qhov zoo ces tub tau lawm.
Saib mej cov tub txawj, ntxhais ntse sis tshum, sis tug cuag miv hab
dlev ces peb cov laug yeej taag kev ca sab twjywm lawm. Yuav taav twg
ntxiv es le yuav muaj tej tub/ntxhais txawj ntse kws laajfaab tswvyim
dluav tau peb ib tsoom Hmoob suav dlawg?
MS
tseemyeej
rapist, devtsoob and so on to make you look bad? At our first
contacts, you merely know me, but lately you exaggerate things more
than I know myself, you even know my wife’s secret sex life. To me, it
sounds like you have been used by others bad elements. Too bad, you
make yourself look bad, not me.
> but let's start to talk productively, will ya?
To talk productively, one has to stay away from bad influences.
> are you part of the problem or do you strive to be part of the
> solution?
So far, to the eyes of Hmong LongCheng, I am part of the problem. On
the other hand, to the eyes of Hmong in general, I am okayed, lots of
friends.
> those were accusations/allegations, i said that many times. if you
> want to discuss this seriously beyond your emotional eruptions...
I know, you have been insisting on serious discussion about my side of
story, and, hence, you hated me so much for refusing to collaborate
with you. Sorry, I only have time to look at a bigger picture and
straight forward to a new path of life which I am pretty comfortable,
right now.
> that does not take away that many people claim to have witness and in
> one published book, that's quite authoritative on hmong history during
> the secret war, ly teck was blamed and guilty of the hin herb massacre.
Let it be the way people wish, so they can enjoy it for the rest of
their life. Buddha said ”We live in the Wattasongsane world, where
Jealousy, Ambition and Greediness are the main sources of kama”. Peace
of mind is what I am looking for, not excuses. Hmoob hais tias:” Uv
tsis tuag”.
> why don't you publish something to the contrary, so a true
> scholar won't have to ask questions and may consume the information?
It may not be the right way to solve the problem, when people's mind
are already set before finding the truth, it's hard to dispute. I
would rather try other avenues to develop my inner hapiness. Again,
Buddha said: “ Kama would stop by itself, if one does not seek to
commit kama”. In facts, those false allegations may have pushed me to
the next level of life, making me a real independent person. At least,
I can see thing from a bad angle and move on my life.
> scamming? do you have proof, or is this accusation and allegations?
Hahaha..how about those fake certificates displayed at those Hmong
SSIers walls?.
> he fought for democracy because he fought under the patronage of
> america's effort, in the name of FREEDOM + DEMOCRACY, against their
During the LongCheng era, all they cared about were POWERS, RANKS and
MONEY. There were nothing about FREEDOM or DEMOCRACY. Look at dr.pao’s
post, he only talks about POWER struggle, clan against clan, nothing
positive. Aren’t you sick of this?
Somehow, to compromise our differences, let’s say, in deep, the
general fought for DEMOCRACY and FREEDOM and he was right about it. In
this case, didn’t he blew his own chance by going against the American
Policy? I mean, how many times, did the white house called him in and
warned him about going in Laos Alone and by Force? No one should form
a government within the government, period. In the meantime, should
we, the Hmong, go alone and take over Laos, in the name of DEMOCRACY
and FREEDOM, all by ourselves, without our compatriots Laoloum? Do we
know that we, the Hmong, only constitute +_ 10% of the whole
population? I guess the Americans must be sick of his behavior and set
him up once for all. Look at the Kremlin and the Berlin walls, are
they crumbled down by Force or by Policy? If you don’t see that the
American Policy is the right path to follow then you see nothing.
I feel pretty pity to our Hmong people who keep putting the rope to
each other neck like the bunch of monkeys trapped in the cage. You
think launching a cheap propaganda like the imaginary LVTYLTM would
work? The best, it can do is to aggravate hatred among us. Guess who
will profit from our self-destructive attitude? The commies.
> you seem to say 2 things. on one hand, you discredit gvp and all his
> efforts (he did not bring you to america, he is not a good leader),
No, he did not bring me to America, many members of my family had died
in that bloody war, so my family was more than qualified to come.
> but on the other hand, you give him all the credit in the world (that
> he is so influential and controlling, no new hmong leaders have been
> able to lead the hmong differently).
You only set your mind to believe it that way, not me. I am an
independent person, he is just another Hmong fellow. As I recall, at
the new year event, every time the general’s wives passed by our
booth, they were very friendly to us, to be graceful, we gave them
some merchandises as gifts, in return, they bought music from us. I
heard that the general like’m a lot.
> did i use the word uncivlized? or are you putting words in my mouth so
Didn’t you say that Lyteck was a HH massacrer? Wasn't you who said it
or someone else put those words in your mouth? You tell me.
> what he merely said is the reason for such progress?
Look at how narrow minded you are? He was a man of vision. HWY 13 was
the only way to reach out from north to south? That was an important
access to the economy and the strategy, the French colonists even
forced people to build it. You should know that lands at developed
area would have more value than the ones in the remote area. Today, a
piece of land at km52 is as high as here and hard to get. The magic
word is location, location and location. Got it, now?
> just a preview, IF km52 was such a contribution to laos by lyteck, why
> was he sentenced to such a fate?
Well, no one can predict his/her destiny. Tens of thousands lives had
perished from that regime change, mostly Laoloum, including the royal
family. To me, it was a great sacrifice from his part. Before he was
gone for ever, he told me alone that he held a diplomatic passport,
all he needed to do was just walk into any embassy, more likely
France, and claim political asylum. Because of the remaining Hmong, he
decided to stay till the end. It happened to be true, not so long ago,
his wife came to visit me and showed his passport which stated so. He
was only 35 years old.
> nothing to be proud of, especially cultural context; it requires a
> significant level of involuntary identity deletion. are you saying,
> lyteck helped to erase the hmong identity?
you can't be constructive you are while talking destructive?You should
look at a bigger picture, Is America a MELTING POT? Are all the races
coming to America erased from their original races? Of course not,
best it can do is a BOWL OF SALAD. Once here, nationalities have
regrouped into their own communities like Saigon Town, Little Tokyo,
Arabs Town, Mexicans Town, Italian Town and so on, so do Hmong in
Sacramento, Fresno, St.Paul and it would also be the same to the Hmong
in km52. I believe, the biggest Hmong New Year is held in that town,
lots of people from all over the country gathering to km52 where they
can enjoy bull fights, kwvtxhiaj, pajtsha lustaum. Life must go on!
Did you see those DVD?
> how about something more genuine like truth....
TRUTH? It all depends. Let’s say; if you like Padaek (fish pickle)
then you would say that it is delicious and if you don't like it then
you would say it smells bad (tsw lwj). The FACT, Padaek is a pickle of
fishes, but the TRUTH is hard to define. To conclude this, you’ve
never seen me in person, that’s the FACT and you hate me, that’s hard
to be TRUE. You should stay neutral in order to see the TRUTH.
Well, life is too short, my wife is too beautiful, gotta go on
vacation for a week so so..
Until then,
TseemYeej.
zhen
> How come? Did I make up those dirty terms like ntshavpim, murder,
> rapist, devtsoob and so on to make you look bad? At our first
> contacts, you merely know me, but lately you exaggerate things more
> than I know myself, you even know my wife’s secret sex life.
see, you're emotionally hurt. i thought you said you were 'tawv tawv'
neb? o, c'mon, you employed those tactics too. don't act like you're
innocent. secret sex life, secret emails, secrets... it's all the same
bad fuzz ball.
> To talk productively, one has to stay away from bad influences.
uh huh, and i suppose you consider yourself a good influence? don't
worry, no c k emails.
> So far, to the eyes of Hmong LongCheng, I am part of the problem. On
> the other hand, to the eyes of Hmong in general, I am okayed, lots of
> friends.
you're okay in my book. fyi.
> I know, you have been insisting on serious discussion about my side of
> story, and, hence, you hated me so much for refusing to collaborate
> with you. Sorry, I only have time to look at a bigger picture and
> straight forward to a new path of life which I am pretty comfortable,
> right now.
"hate" you? no. "hate" so strong of a word. i am amused by you more
than anything. keep making 'claims' w/o substantiating, it's really
your MO.
> Let it be the way people wish, so they can enjoy it for the rest of
> their life. Buddha said ”We live in the Wattasongsane world, where
> Jealousy, Ambition and Greediness are the main sources of kama”. Peace
> of mind is what I am looking for, not excuses. Hmoob hais tias:” Uv
> tsis tuag”.
say what you want, but don't accuse people of 'bad influence' when
they reference published work, okay? "uv"? you call self-destruction
and sorties "uv". wow. new definition.
> It may not be the right way to solve the problem, when people's mind
> are already set before finding the truth, it's hard to dispute. I
no, there's still people who want to know all sides. don't doubt
people, yet, be so self-righteous referencing buddha. see the
contradictions?
> would rather try other avenues to develop my inner hapiness. Again,
like ... vandalizing other people's posts?
> Hahaha..how about those fake certificates displayed at those Hmong
> SSIers walls?.
you think they felt scammed, but do they themselves feel scammed? how
about a survey? oh, you're making accusations again w/o
substantiation...
> During the LongCheng era, all they cared about were POWERS, RANKS and
> MONEY. There were nothing about FREEDOM or DEMOCRACY. Look at dr.pao’s
> post, he only talks about POWER struggle, clan against clan, nothing
> positive. Aren’t you sick of this?
and which era of history did mankind since its establishment of
civilization did not care about vanity? i'm not sick of GVP. but i am
tired of those who blab about how bad he is, yet, have no solution and
no practice of such solution. i'm more interested in the good points
of dr s yang's dissertation put to work. the theory is intriguing, the
application is tough.
> Somehow, to compromise our differences, let’s say, in deep, the
> general fought for DEMOCRACY and FREEDOM and he was right about it. In
> this case, didn’t he blew his own chance by going against the American
> Policy?
it's politiks, you know that. reading from old posts as far back as
2003/2002, many of you talked about reconciliation by GVP and
accusation of this allegiance with the reds. whatever the divergence,
i'm interested in a new direction, new goals. it's time for a change.
many of those younger than you but older than me, seem to have
identified the problems and leverage points, but there is little
action. we'll see....
> I mean, how many times, did the white house called him in and
> warned him about going in Laos Alone and by Force? No one should form
> a government within the government, period. I
don't think that's what he was trying to do. but, we're getting way
off topic from how prediction of gvp as gang leader or hmong leader
could be used to justify calling hmong terrorists, as you would
prefer.
> think launching a cheap propaganda like the imaginary LVTYLTM would
> work? The best, it can do is to aggravate hatred among us. Guess who
> will profit from our self-destructive attitude? The commies.
that was petty. you seem to read everything on here. i've made my
stand clear on that tape. woe unto them.
> No, he did not bring me to America, many members of my family had died
> in that bloody war, so my family was more than qualified to come.
not per say, but his efforts and influence did.
> Didn’t you say that Lyteck was a HH massacrer? Wasn't you who said it
> or someone else put those words in your mouth? You tell me.
i thought you said so. you also called hmong terrorists and
mercenaries.
> Look at how narrow minded you are? He was a man of vision. HWY 13 was
> the only way to reach out from north to south? That was an important
> access to the economy and the strategy, the French colonists even
> forced people to build it. You should know that lands at developed
> area would have more value than the ones in the remote area. Today, a
> piece of land at km52 is as high as here and hard to get. The magic
> word is location, location and location. Got it, now?
so, he was a business savy person? that seems to be what ly teck was
more than an 'intellectual'. what's you're definition of an
intellectual? (oops, another question from a non-true scholar).
> Well, no one can predict his/her destiny. Tens of thousands lives had
> perished from that regime change, mostly Laoloum, including the royal
> family. To me, it was a great sacrifice from his part. Before he was
> gone for ever, he told me alone that he held a diplomatic passport,
> all he needed to do was just walk into any embassy, more likely
> France, and claim political asylum. Because of the remaining Hmong, he
> decided to stay till the end. It happened to be true, not so long ago,
> his wife came to visit me and showed his passport which stated so. He
> was only 35 years old.
thanks for sharing...
> you can't be constructive you are while talking destructive?You should
> look at a bigger picture, Is America a MELTING POT? Are all the races
> coming to America erased from their original races? Of course not,
> best it can do is a BOWL OF SALAD. Once here, nationalities have
> regrouped into their own communities like Saigon Town, Little Tokyo,
> Arabs Town, Mexicans Town, Italian Town and so on, so do Hmong in
> Sacramento, Fresno, St.Paul and it would also be the same to the Hmong
> in km52. I believe, the biggest Hmong New Year is held in that town,
> lots of people from all over the country gathering to km52 where they
> can enjoy bull fights, kwvtxhiaj, pajtsha lustaum. Life must go on!
> Did you see those DVD?
it must, but in the end, assimilation is nothing to be proud of. koj
puas nco qab hmoob nyoos hmoob siav? there's + and - to each
direction. you + i are no doubt the product of hmoob nyoos.
> TRUTH? It all depends. Let’s say; if you like Padaek (fish pickle)
> then you would say that it is delicious and if you don't like it then
> you would say it smells bad (tsw lwj). The FACT, Padaek is a pickle of
> fishes, but the TRUTH is hard to define. To conclude this, you’ve
> never seen me in person, that’s the FACT and you hate me, that’s hard
> to be TRUE. You should stay neutral in order to see the TRUTH.
be cool. that's the advice you gave to me a long time ago. i don't
"hate" you. you conjure up such superlative terms, maybe this is more
indicative of your thoughts and feelings. have i not seen you in
person? hrm... if i gave you my aunt's name, you'd know me or my
father automatically. too bad, we live in such a "hateful" world, huh?
be cool.
> Well, life is too short, my wife is too beautiful, gotta go on
> vacation for a week so so..
please don't involve your wife, she's no object. you're a man of
merits and can stand your own. i need a break too... nothing
fascinating yet on sch, and you won't answer or participate, oops, i
mean collaborate....
be cool.
syan...@hotmail.com
syan...@hotmail.com
wrote:
sch participants,
in this forum, i was surprised to learn that many of you, although
have been here in the US for more than 30 years with good education
and witnessed several presidential elections and hundreds of state and
local elections, still don't tolerate criticisms made to point out
vp's policy mistakes and policies. if you do not like to discuss his
mistakes and to debate on his policies that have held the progress of
the hmong, then the implication is that you're not honestly help him
out to become a better leader. because the hmong, especially vp's
followers, have been afraid of him, pointing out his mistakes,
including his homeland political activities that indirectly killed
hundreds of hmong and dispersed thousands of others in thailand and
even here in the US since 1975, no hmong could save vp from being
arrested, degrading his reputation in particular and hmong in
general.
zhen, to solve the hmong national problems, it's important to talk
about vp's policy mistakes since he, even though is still being in
house arrest for his homeland political actions, still influences the
hmong community to a certain extent. he is still effective simply
because his mistakes are not yet digging out to deter his influence
and because the majority of the hmong are not well informed
politically and thus easily be manipulated. our job is to save these
people from being manipulated by discussing vp's policy mistakes,
including his misstatements.
syang05
DownUnder
Shoua... you are a bit off tract here... the response to SCH members
to your post has nothing to do with what you call, "still don't
tolerate criticisms made to point out vp's policy mistakes and
policies.". As for me, i simply challenge your conclusion to those
facts that your eluded to. As I said, you made some STATEMENTS - the
fact is reasonable - but your EXPLAINATION or your REASONS behind
those facts are wrong or misleading. What we are saying is that, as a
Hmong scholar, as you are a Ph D Hmong, you are EXPECTED to do better
than that by providing the proof, the reference to back up your
conclusion - and that you cannot just make blatant conclusion as you
did in your post with nothing to support them.
This is an intellectual discussion - if you want to prove your points,
then provide a convincing evidence, either first hand information from
your field result or facts and figures and credible reference from
multiple sources from other scholars.
Pao
On Jul 27, 12:33 pm, "syang...@hotmail.com" <syang...@hotmail.com>
ctj
You’ve made several serious allegations in your original post.
The first, you stated that the CIA engineered a “national reconstruction
plan” to transfer power from Ly Fong to VP. Where are your sources for
this statement?
The second, you stated that that since VP came into power, his action
sacrificed thousand of lives; more so than any other losses in recent
Hmong history.
You must realize that this is a serious allegation that could prove fatal
to your career if you cannot back it up? Does Professor McCoy ring a
bell? You are a professor and what you say matters, so chose your words
carefully.
Are we to believe that the sole action of VP caused of these deaths. What
about the Americans, the Thais, the Vietnamese, the Russians, and the
Chinese, did they not have a part in it? Was VP a pawn or was he the
master mind? Please provide us with references to back up your claims.
mua...@gmail.com
Moobsib,
Cas puab cov tub txawj, ntxhais ntse sib tshaum, TSHUM, ua neeg dla
puam tsaam kob rua peb saib mas. Xaav paub puab cov tsw8 saib leej twg
le zoo muaj ib nub peb yuav tau tsaa tug ntawd moog ua Moob tug
Ambassador rua tom UN nyob New York mas. Vim tug nuav sai yuav yog ib
tug muaj laajlim challenge heev hab paub international law zoo nav.
Tej yuav miv-v le nuav xwb xob rawm moog cheem puab hab xob rawm taag
kev cas sab rua peb cov tub txawm, ntxhais ntse nuav mas.
Thanks
MT
cwjmem
Seem like a young lion want to take over the old lion king's kingdom,
right. All the legacy this man has built, a few of us "ruam cuab
ntse" wanna bury it. He he he ...
On Jul 26, 7:33 pm, "syang...@hotmail.com" <syang...@hotmail.com>
pebhmo...@yahoo.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Old lion is no a king and will never be a king, just only in a dream.
Old lion have no kingdom that's why the lions spred all over others
kingdom. Old lion do not deserve to have a kingdom, too many times
and too many reason for the lion to have a kingdom but he ignore
because he have big bond in his mouth and hold one in his hand. He
need bond more than a kingdom, that's why lion have no kingdom to
rule. But all the lions keep find him bond that's why he so proud
about it. All the lion should chase him around and tell him that
without kingdom youl will have no bond or meat but they are so dum and
blind to do that.
sok dee
good luck
kwame...@yahoo.com
Amendment right even if his serious allegations turn out to be hoax.
McCoy, for instance, not only accused VP and the CIA of drug
trafficking in Laos, but he also went after all level of U.S.
officials in the Abu Ghraib scandal and thus far he remains unnoticed
by the U.S. government. At first glance, it appeared that
"Syang05" resemble the typical anti-VP camp who'd rather see him fall
the hardest and will only feel grateful when he's gone. But when you
really think about it, there's a few number of people in academia that
seem to connect with his thinking. They do not believe that behaviors
and the contents of a man's character are not always learned; some are
born with. As educated as some of these people maybe, they cannot
make a distinction between theory and reality. That is why professors
and scholars don't become leaders, and leaders like George Bush and Al
Gore claimed they are not only good leaders, but they created the best
education system and invented the Internet.
zhen
> make a distinction between theory and reality. That is why professors
> and scholars don't become leaders, and leaders like George Bush and Al
a lot of them may not eventually become leaders, but they are the ones
putting knowledge, information, biases, prejudices, thought control,
etc... into the minds of those who will eventually become leaders..
think about that. from where professor s. yang stands, if he changes
one mind, that one mind may be able to change millions. so, with such
power comes matching responsibility, that is why, as dr pao and ctj
has said, he needs to be careful about his analysis, conclusions, and
statements. the weakness of professor s. yang's remark insofar as this
thread is concerned, is his zealous emphasis on what he thinks is the
problem (GVP), and not what he thinks is the solution (hmong
nationalism).
Thorn...@yahoo.com
huv sch nuav sis tug kawg le, muaj txuj dlaab tsi yim meem nthuav tuaj
kuas tug twg sav miv tes tuag kag moog xwb los moj. Kuv tub pum tug
puav nti nti ua pa sem soom lawm nav.
On Jul 26, 9:33 pm, "syang...@hotmail.com" <syang...@hotmail.com>
syan...@hotmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Pao,
since your interpretation of my original e-mail is off the track, i
did not respond to it directly, but an indirect response was given.
fyi, it's not hard to find the numbers of hmong casualties during vp's
military administration since 1960s to 1975. some writers, including
dyd, report that 15,000 hmong soldiers were killed during the war,
while others, including janes hamilton-merrit, proponent of vp, notes
that 35,000 hmong soldiers were killed. still others found that
between 35,000 to 50,000 hmong soldiers were killed in action, while
between 50,000 and 58,000 Hmong soldiers were wounded during the war.
in hmong recent history in laos, can you think any other losses of
hmong lives that are larger than these figures? i don't.
after 1975, due to neo hom's policy, principally engineered by vp, the
chairman of the neo hom branch in the usa, and his inner-circle
advisors, known as the hmong "doctors" whose educational credential
below college level, hundreds hmong, including women and children,
were killed in the jungles of northern laos, while thousands other
hmong refugees were displaced in thailand, including many who are
current in phatchaburn--the current problem of the hmong.
worst still, vp's lao family organizations and other nonprofit
entities have been responsible for celebrating the hmong new year, one
of the hmong national assets, since september to december each year
for cash, instead of considering the negative consequences of these
celebrations, culturally affecting the hmong as a group. vp, for
example, just said that it's ok to celebrate the hmong new year at
different occasions during a year since locations are hard to find.
celebrating the hmong new year several times a year as vp's policy
makes nonhmong people and second hmong generation who was born in the
usa confused about the hmong new year and thus dispect it. vp does not
care about the cultural impacts of these celebrations, perhaps because
he does not know that culture, such as the hmong new year, constitutes
a part of a "national" within a state or perhaps he has been
interested in using these events to retain his leadership. since vp is
the supreme president of these groups, he has been the guest honor at
each event, showing that he is still the hmong leader, a moment of
making him feel good but regreting in history. will you join me to
save the hmong national asset for the hmong, celebrating the hmong new
year in a fixed dates for cultural reason, not cash and leadership
reasons?
as for the cia national reconstruction plan, a peaceful means to
transfer the hmong leadership from touby lyfoung to vp in the early
1960s, it's not hard to find it in any reading about hmong and cia
alliance, including parker, yang, and others. however, to get the
point, reading these readings, one has to go one step beyond the
conclusions of the wrtiters. that is, interpretations and implications
of the readings are important.
syang05
ctj
Unbelievable... This cannot be the response of a PhD. If syang05 is not
Professor S Yang then accept my apology. If syang05 and Professor Yang
are one and the same then I am truly disappointed. This type of reasoning
belongs in primary school and not in higher academia.
Syang05, how can you state that at present, you and other scholars still
don’t know the actual number of war casualties and yet you then conclude
that it is because of VP that the Hmong have suffered the highest number of
casualties in recent history? Wouldn’t it be helpful if you knew the
numbers before you drew a conclusion? Is this the type of analysis they
teach at the University of Wisconsin?
The rest of your post, I won’t even bother with because is drawn on your
contempt for VP and nothing else. Please make us proud and do better.
DownUnder
wrote:
Shoua Yang,
I have nothing more to add... because Chong has said well, as I would
say, in his response.
I am just amaze and so unexpected to read such response from a Hmong
Ph D!.
Pao
DownUnder
>
> - Show quoted text -
Just one more....
May be what Dr Gary Yia Lee wrote would make some sense on this
issue...
.."To avoid such pitfalls in social science research, I believe it
should be more fruitful to take both the "enic" and "etic" approaches
in which the researcher's observations and perceptions are combined
with those of the research subjects, with information checked and
cross-checked before it is used. This has been well stated by
Goodenough (14) when he said that: (a) whenever we wish to know what
people are doing and why, or what they are likely to do, we must know
what kind of things they see and respond to, and (b) we must know what
they believe to be the relations between these things and what they
see as the possible course of action for dealing with them. As we try
to unravel the complexity of the Hmong resettlement experience in the
West, I hope that these premises will help yield information,
interpretations and ideas on the Hmong in a much wider perspective..."
http://www.hmongnet.org/hmong-au/hmongoz.htm
kwame...@yahoo.com
Hmong involved in the secret theater during Vietnam, during the
resistent movement, and gvp's DO-NOTHING to stop Hmong from using the
New Year holiday for commercial purposes may have some implication if
not any merit. however, the issues are beyond reach for "ctj, pao,
and syang05" or anyone-else in this forum if we seriously wanted to
discuss. hmong issues are not a fixed set of binary codes like 1
equals "On" while 0 equals "Off." it is easy for anyone to single out
vp for the down-side of the hmong with respect to the social and
political aspects because no one-else has shouldered the Hmong burden
like he is. and yes, many lives have been lost including those
unaccounted for during the secret war and the movement of the
resistent forces. but, if we are going to discuss the issues, let's
be fair. If gvp were to bear all of the burden of the hmong, who then
gets to bear the fruits? what about all of the beautiful homes, great
jobs and businesses we possess, ph.d's, md's, pastors, ministers, and
all of the free to do will of what Hmong want in the U.S. let's not
suggest that hmong are not capable of making progress without gvp;
hmong are smart people. dyd, pao, gary lee and few others didn't need
to become refugees to acquire their ph.d's or md's. and so does "pao
down-under and syang05" without gvp and the elders' involvement in the
war that granted us an entrance to the west. they are smart and can
make it any-where on their own. but, what about the not so smart
majority from the hills of Laos, whose only skills prior to 1975 were
"slash and burn" forest for crops, and whose education was primarily
made of retelling oral folk tales - and "who could not read a letter
the size of a water buffalo (ntawd luaj twm nyeem tsis tau)" - an old
cliche. what would the lives of our majority be like today?
"syang05" brought up a good point about the Hmong New Year
celebration. these days in america, instead of priding ourselves as a
people with a national holiday like the Irish with St. Patrick's Day
and the Jewish with Hanukkah, we are sort of lost and found among a
together but rather scatter parade of new year celebrations across the
50 states from late Summer to the Winter with the exception of two
main events that come marginally close to the real new year in Fresno
and St. Paul. gvp certainly can place some kind of influence over
these events, but I'm not sure if he wants to be casted as a cultural
dictator given when his effort of uniting hmong is seeing as anything
but a dictator. uniting hmong new year by gvp will be like inviting
more injury, wouldn't you say?
tseemyeej
I encourage you to write with freedom. Remember this is the land of
the free and home of the brave.
There is always someone out there who wants to learn things from
different angles.
Cheers,
TseemYeej.
tee...@hotmail.com
After AB78 was passed in CA, I was asked by the group designing the
cirrucumlum to implement AB78 to edit their draft, although my area of
training is unrelated to education, English or history. I was amazed
by the mythology associated with VP and other Hmong leaders. I had to
cross out paragraphs of the draft and reminded the appropriate authors
not to mistaken between history and mythology. Some of these authors
were professors and professional teachers unlike I who majored in
chemistry. I used three standard American high school textbooks in
history as the basis of my work. However, I became very sick and had
to resign from the project.
Clearly, history is not an exact science as information, even
recorded, is subject to the whim of the author and the environment in
which the information is collected and processed. Obviously, in the
case of VP, a proper and balanced analysis of his leadership is
difficult under the current circumstance. Nevertheless, in the final
analysis, the ultimate effect of his leadership is clear: it was
devastating to himself personally and to Hmong in Laos in general.
Whether such an outcome is considered good or bad on a personal basis,
it is up to eye of the beholder. On the national level, though, Hmong
have been through a terrible catastrophe as a result. In my view,
leadership of a person is not defined by what you and I see in a
person on a personal basis, rather by the actual impact a leader has
brought upon an entire nation.
For example, Hitler was a very successful person if we only look at
how he rose from a meager beginning to become the furor of Germany and
was able to command the Germans to do whatever he wished. Yet, in the
final analysis, his leadership was a total failure: he brought an
unprecedented catastrophe upon Germany, let alone other countries, and
he ended up dead with his own hands. No question there are many
people, including American supremacists, who still think of Hitler as
a great leader. I am sure there are Australians in the pact.
Teev
zhen
> discuss. hmong issues are not a fixed set of binary codes like 1
> equals "On" while 0 equals "Off." it is easy for anyone to single out
we need qubits, right?
> be fair. If gvp were to bear all of the burden of the hmong, who then
> gets to bear the fruits? what about all of the beautiful homes, great
that is why gvp is still the father of hmong people. because anyone
can 'blame' him, and take credit for themselves. that makes his legacy
greater. jesus is revered because he died for your sins, according to
christian belief. who is your lord and savior that cannot bear the
burden of your sins?
> make it any-where on their own. but, what about the not so smart
> majority from the hills of Laos, whose only skills prior to 1975 were
> "slash and burn" forest for crops, and whose education was primarily
> made of retelling oral folk tales - and "who could not read a letter
> the size of a water buffalo (ntawd luaj twm nyeem tsis tau)" - an old
> cliche. what would the lives of our majority be like today?
just to speak of laos, if laos was governed as a truly democratic,
republic state, we'd probably have a hmong prime minister, hmong
president representing the great country of laos. of course, no hmong
king; that's forbidden fruit.
> "syang05" brought up a good point about the Hmong New Year
> celebration. these days in america, instead of priding ourselves as a
> people with a national holiday like the Irish with St. Patrick's Day
> and the Jewish with Hanukkah, we are sort of lost and found among a
> together but rather scatter parade of new year celebrations across the
> 50 states from late Summer to the Winter with the exception of two
> main events that come marginally close to the real new year in Fresno
> and St. Paul. gvp certainly can place some kind of influence over
it's okay, we reached a prosperous land now. we are scattered across
the USA. how many cities are there in california alone where a
substantial hmong population lives? how many of these hmong
communities want to have their own celebration? i think hmong in
fresno want to go eat 30 and see how hmong in sacto lives, and vice-
versa. we have the time, money, and transportation now. every year i
go, i don't see any decay of hmong culture, i see + hear + taste +
smell hmong culture all around from fresno, merced, sacto, etc...
> these events, but I'm not sure if he wants to be casted as a cultural
> dictator given when his effort of uniting hmong is seeing as anything
> but a dictator. uniting hmong new year by gvp will be like inviting
> more injury, wouldn't you say?
on one hand, they want 'influence' from the top, on the other hand,
the top's influence is shaky at best and they call it dictatorship.
'they' need to make up their minds, as much as they earned their way.
remember, teev said those who followed hmong 18 xeem's curb of wedding
expenses are "morons"? just google, you'll see. damn if he does, damn
if he don't. but, i think, in this case, damn thee for damning while
thou did not.
zhen
> the free and home of the brave.
>
> There is always someone out there who wants to learn things from
> different angles.
this is true, but only partially true. say what you need to say, but
validate + substantiate. otherwise.....
zhen
> Syang05, how can you state that at present, you and other scholars still
> don’t know the actual number of war casualties and yet you then conclude
> that it is because of VP that the Hmong have suffered the highest number of
> casualties in recent history? Wouldn’t it be helpful if you knew the
what dr s yang said is okay, even for scholars. he referenced so-and-
so. the point is, there is no hard set number. it's a range. no harm
there.
> The rest of your post, I won’t even bother with because is drawn on your
> contempt for VP and nothing else. Please make us proud and do better.
actually, i "heard" many of the same allegations/accusations against
GVP et al too in the past. if it is true or not, someone, especially
self-proclaimed care-taker of the hmong national assets like dr. s
yang, should publish and flush out the details. let the people decide.
right now, it's he-said-she-said, even though we have a few Ph.D.'s in
history, anthropology, sociology, etc... we still have little truth
and little details. yog muaj tseeb li dr s yaj hais/liam, nws yuav tau
maub sau kiag tsis xob ntshai. yeej muaj ntau ntau tus phooj ywg mam
li pab nws.
tseemyeej
> this is true, but only partially true. say what you need to say, but
> validate + substantiate. otherwise.....
fact. For instance, your friend lary had said that I sent him a secret
email and you tempted to believe it while I have denied doing so. Both
sides seem to be true. To substantiate our differences, I have been
asking for proofs and he failed to do so, therefore, you are old
enough to figure out who to believe, it's all up to you to choose what
side of truth. Regardless secret or not secret, so far I know, I had
no personal contact to an individual named Lary. Why would I do that
if pao and I already have engaged a few disputes earlier. Beside, I am
not the type of people who look for side-takers, I just want to
express my true feeling, that's all.
And same scenario on this topic; when pao chose to attack the Lys only
and leaved out the rest of vp dirty tricks, that is considered "only
partially true". To find out the whole truth, one should be willing to
throughly examine both side of the coin. Wouldn't you agree that pao
should reveal vp's plot to kill col. NpuagFwm Lis and Lyteck as well
as the Lys dirty tricks toward vp?
TseemYeej.
zhen
> As I said, truth is not always true, only fact that will always remain
> fact. For instance, your friend lary had said that I sent him a secret
true != true? hrm... strange... odd..
fact = fact? r u sure? last time i talked with yaweh, he said i had
trapped him. be glad to talk to either of you again on facts and
beliefs.
> email and you tempted to believe it while I have denied doing so. Both
> sides seem to be true. To substantiate our differences, I have been
> asking for proofs and he failed to do so, therefore, you are old
> enough to figure out who to believe, it's all up to you to choose what
> side of truth. Regardless secret or not secret, so far I know, I had
> no personal contact to an individual named Lary. Why would I do that
> if pao and I already have engaged a few disputes earlier. Beside, I am
> not the type of people who look for side-takers, I just want to
> express my true feeling, that's all.
be cool. it may be true != true, but lary = buffalo. tigers bite to
kill.
> And same scenario on this topic; when pao chose to attack the Lys only
> and leaved out the rest of vp dirty tricks, that is considered "only
> partially true". To find out the whole truth, one should be willing to
> throughly examine both side of the coin. Wouldn't you agree that pao
> should reveal vp's plot to kill col. NpuagFwm Lis and Lyteck as well
> as the Lys dirty tricks toward vp?
well, i am only me, u r only u. if i cannot control i, if i cannot
substantiate i, why should i bother dr pao to? in other words, i would
agree for you to practice what you preach and show i by example
instead of having i 'dictate' how dr pao should operate. but, as far
as i know, on sch and published materials, only one side of the coin
has been seen. tou@aa was kind enough to substantiate and validate how
ly teck was not near the hh location when it happened. that makes a
significant difference, and we can't use binary anymore and must
resort to qubits in computing the likelihood of these past events.
but, like i suggested, and ignore if you must, i am still waiting for
substantiation/validation on your statements: 'hmong are terrorists'
and 'hmong are mercenaries' and 'ly lue was a mercenary' etc...
otherwise, we all just can say what we want (you and i, to lesser
consequences, but someone established like dr s yang, to his own
detriment).
in all cases, dr pao welcomed you to show the other side of the
coin... will you do it, or as the buffalo moaned, just talk a big
game?
tseemyeej
> be cool. it may be true != true, but lary = buffalo. tigers bite to
> kill.
trap called "Txhaub dev sib tog". Syang5's comment has nothing to do
with neither the 3 Lyfoung nor Ly TongPao and his son LyVang nor
Lyteck. Why pao has to bring this up? Isn't it because he felt into
Lary's trap?
Laughable, huh?
TseemYeej.
ເຄຣຊີ້ແລຣີ້
Bor aye Tevada bor nor? Is Tevada blind? 555555 BTW you have
already admitted that you have emailed me about Pao. Everyone else
here has read it. You already admitted it. Read your own writings.
Your friend,
ແລຣີ້
DownUnder
Tseem Yeej,
You sounds that you have not read Shoua yang initial post on this
thread. he specifically refer to "the plan meant to unconsciously,
peacefully transfer power from touby lyfoung to vp... " - this is
where the Lyfoung as brought into discussion. So, it was Shoua who
brought the Lyfoung into this discussion - not me!! And when you
talk about Lyfong in this context then it cannot be completed by
mentioning the Tongpao - in which Ly Vang Tong Pao was the brain and
force behind that group at that time (I know that much because Ly Vang
Tongpao married to my father's sister!!! and i used to live with Ly
Vang Tongpao). You are a Lee, at least, you should know that.
As for Lyteck, my post was very clear about what I refer to Lyteck -
in what context. Are you disputing that?
Pao
DownUnder
Teev,
Why don't you apply the same strategy as you did with the after match
of the AB78 to Shoua Yang's post? He is Ph D, isn't he?
Why not analyse Shoua's p[ost if he need to consider "not to mistaken
between history and mythology"?. I am simply asking Shoua to provide
backing for his statement (as I have done so with you earlier!).
Here is Shoua's full post, in case you have not read it:
<<Newsgroups: soc.culture.hmong
From: "syang...@hotmail.com" <syang...@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:00:56 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Wed, Jul 23 2008 11:00 am
Subject: VP's contradicting claim of his 65 yrs ruling
Reply | Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show
original | Report this message | Find messages by this author
Thorn...@yahoo.com
kuas mej cov nav xwv xam hluas yuav tsum nthuav txhua yaam qas hab tsw
cov nom tswv Moob laug tau ua lim has rua Moob lawm rua peb cov hluas
tom university kawm puab txhaj le paub the truth, hab has txug cov
Moob raug tuag vim vp coj moog tiv tsov rog tug 9-70 years old nuav
mas yeej paub has tas tuag lawm coob txheeb leej kuas tsis muaj ib tug
twg account rua tug number death kag le or tej zag yeej muaj kuas puab
tsig publicly has qha xwb, raws le kuv tug laug nuav xav xwb mas tej
zag tug # 15,000 yuav ze hab zoo noog zog lawm, yog tas muaj le puab
cov nav xwv xam hov twv tes txhais tau tas peb cov Moob ua tsov rog
secret war hov tseem tuag tsawg tshaaj le tom qaab teb chaw poob lawm
laiv yuam, raws le peb yawm politikaly scientist dr vangpobzeb qhov
finding mas nwg tshawb fawb tau mas nwg has tas tom qaab tog lab tuaj
empowered lub teb chaws nplog lawm nploglab tau muab peb cov Moob tua
tuag txug 300,000 tug lawm nua, ua le koj tub yog ib tug politikal
scientist ib yaam le tug doctor vangpobzeb hab koj puas paub meej txug
qhov nuav?
> after 1975, due to neo hom's policy, principally engineered by vp, the
> chairman of the neo hom branch in the usa, and his inner-circle
> advisors, known as the hmong "doctors" whose educational credential
> below college level, hundreds hmong, including women and children,
> were killed in the jungles of northern laos, while thousands other
> hmong refugees were displaced in thailand, including many who are
> current in phatchaburn--the current problem of the hmong.
Qhaub nuav koj has tau raug sab miv miv lawm hab lauv, kuv mas xav
kuas koj txhob yog has huv nuav xwb kuas muab publish kag ua ib phau
ntawv rua cov hluas kawm kuas puab thaj le paub qhov tseeb, hab thaj
le paub tas paab doctors below college level nuav yog leej twg tag,
paub zoo lawm tas ib tug tes koj yeej has ntaub yawm kws moog nrug cov
Moob nwg pheej taw kev rua puab moog lug tim nplog lug ploj tuag lawm
has plaub ua ntej rua saum tsooj ntug lawm ntaag kuas lwm tug doctors
niv koj yuav tau teev puab npe kuas meej zog.
> worst still, vp's lao family organizations and other nonprofit
> entities have been responsible for celebrating the hmong new year, one
> of the hmong national assets, since september to december each year
> for cash, instead of considering the negative consequences of these
> celebrations, culturally affecting the hmong as a group. vp, for
> example, just said that it's ok to celebrate the hmong new year at
> different occasions during a year since locations are hard to find.
> celebrating the hmong new year several times a year as vp's policy
> makes nonhmong people and second hmong generation who was born in the
> usa confused about the hmong new year and thus dispect it. vp does not
> care about the cultural impacts of these celebrations, perhaps because
> he does not know that culture, such as the hmong new year, constitutes
> a part of a "national" within a state or perhaps he has been
> interested in using these events to retain his leadership. since vp is
> the supreme president of these groups, he has been the guest honor at
> each event, showing that he is still the hmong leader, a moment of
> making him feel good but regreting in history. will you join me to
> save the hmong national asset for the hmong, celebrating the hmong new
> year in a fixed dates for cultural reason, not cash and leadership
> reasons?
Koj kws yog ib tug professor rua huv university mas koj yuav tau
clarify rua ib zej tsoom tawv dlawb hab peb txheej hluas nwg nuav tas
qhov Moob noj 30 txij thaum lub 8-12 hli nuav mas yog cov num tswv
Moob exploited Moob lub peb caug lug txhawb puab tug huab tais xwb nua
nawb, koj yeej has yog lawm kav tsij yim meem has kuas phua plhlawv
lub tsib ntaag nawb, kuv mas nyam kuas has openly qhov truth le ko
ntag, dluas le lwm tug doctor, piv le dr pao thao mas nwg yeej tsis
muaj cuab kaav has the truth kag le.
tseemyeej
On Aug 3, 8:29 pm, DownUnder <drpao...@dex.hmoob.net> wrote:
> You sounds that you have not read Shoua yang initial post on this
Shoua wrote about 20 lines and only one line was fairly stated:
"peacefully transfer power from touby lyfoung to vp", you then
splashed back with 95 lines full of lies as following:
> .............................................................. Hence, the Lee force was
> effectively removed as early as 1965. This gives VP the unobstructed
> way to structure the ruling of the Hmong with the new wave of Chao
> Mouang, Nai Kong, Tasseng, the Court system in Longcheng ect... with
> no interference from the Lyfoung and the Tongpao and others.
According to your statement above, it is clear that vp had removed
TongPao, NtsuabVaj, LisTsas, NomYeej, NeejThoob, Tubpos, LyVong,
XwNplooj (Touby’s son), NomKo (Touby’s brother), LyNtxawg (NpuagFwm's
brother) plus the Lee BaneNa and Lee ThajXam such as TouYias, LisTeeb,
LisXyooj, LisOom, XyoojPov, LisPheej, LisNtxawg etc.. right? If these
people were not the Lee force, who else? Weren’t they the so called
Cols., Chao Mouang, Nai Kong, Tasseng, the Court system in Longcheng?
Did these people fight side by side with vp till 1975 or were they
REMOVED by vp as early as 1965 as you stated? You are such liar!
From a different angle, ordinary people would state that vp’s main
backbone was the Lee, without them, he couldn’t survive that long.
Comparing to the Thoj, who devoted most of his life to stay in the
front? Did any body hear that NtsuabVaj fought for money or position?
Did any body hear that col. NeejTswb Thoj was selling his battallion
to both the CIA and the RL Army? Did anybody hear that PajCais Thoj’s
house was full of money? And his windows were kept closed at all the
time? Didn't we all know the reason why the latter stayed in Thailand?
Are you trying to tell us that luag tej quav mas tsw nyaum heev hos
yus tawb mas thiaj tsw qab no pos yog?
> As for Lyteck, my post was very clear about what I refer to Lyteck -
> in what context. Are you disputing that?
That’s exactly what I meant by "Cais neej rau neej, cais dab rau dab".
No hard feeling, when you decided to show your true face, I do so
know who is who.
Holding a tittle doesn't mean that you know everything. A smart person
should never fill up his brain to the max with only one angle of
information, it will give him no room to examine other angles. When
your brain is filled up to the rim, you will babble nonsense like the
above and your tittle will be null and trashed.
I guess, Thanouxay gave you too much credit by saying that you are a
hmongcentric, since your brain is so limited, I would say you are
worthed to be a paocentric only. You brain is not even the size of a
“pim nas tsuag”, that why you are so easily hooked by lary’s bait.
When are you gonna have the courage to free yourself from being used
by others?
TseemYeej.
Born2beHmong
kawame...
syang05 knows nothing in the context of reality in regards to Hmong
New Year Celebration, such that he only stated what comes to his mind
with a similarity as BeemouaChaofa.
His initial post had not been answered, and now he has already pointed
finger into different of direction and that that’s not educated people
with knowledge and wisdom. Yet, hmong new year is an issue that needs
to be addressed, but it shall fall into different post and category.
Just giving an opinion as this, and an attempted of personal
assassination as he did here is ignorance.
Born
kwame...@yahoo.com
often deemed as too many and most ordinary folks will have little or
no hesitation of saying that it is deliberate. Incidentally, I have
not yet reached a conclusion that "syang05" intentionally wanted to
add more insult to an injury, but rather he is casting the stone at
the shadow while losing the substances. if our emerging
intellectuals wanted to to solve Hmong issues, gvp and his camp are
the least and easiest to deal with. most of them are now grand
parents and some are even great grand parents. We have little time
left with them. they are simple, predictable, and they have fewer
principles in life. for lack of a better example, I cast them as the
enemies that we know overwheliming well. they are only the shadow of
our problems. those who stiffle hmong progress and the obstacles to
the destinty that hmong yearn for, for a better interpretation, are
the angels that hmong do not know. sweet in words, but bitter heart.
rich in theories but poor in practice.
DownUnder
Tseem Yeej,
It is so good to hear your side of the story. YOUR story - I have read
it, I understood every word of it... and let it be clear that I agree
to disagree with you...
You are a Lee, so you must know who, among the Lee, were the VP
opposition - as this is one area that I did not much about it... All I
heard - (I heard only and I ahve no evidence to support one one or
another - so Tseem Yeej..you may like to confirm or deny it) is that
one of the attempt coup in Longcheng did not succeed because Mr Pacha
Lee, one of the most senior & respected members of the Lee, did not
support the coup. VP was able to return to reign Longcheng again and
VP was planning to reward Pacha Lee but it was unfortunate that Mr
Pacha Lee died before VP could do that. Is this any truth in this?
Tseem Yeej... you should know about this... share with us... your side
of story.
It is always as colorful as Tseem yeej can make it to be. I will keep
a copy for future reference!!!
ເຄຣຊີ້ແລຣີ້
So no money for Phalak from you then? Stabbing those Phalak people in
the back too then?
Just checking.
55555
Your friend,
ແລຣີ້
tseemyeej
On Aug 4, 6:49 pm, DownUnder <drpao...@dex.hmoob.net> wrote:
> ... and let it be clear that I agree to disagree with you...
You agree to disagree means that you do not acknowledge the Lee force
was vp's backbone and you still believe that the Lee force was
effectively removed as early as 1965, right?
Poor pao! If so, I would say that naivety is your problem. Your mind
is limited like the perroquet’s. Since we are entering the 21st
century, this stagnancy of flexibility should be more expandable. In
order to balance out things correctly, a dr. at your caliber, should
not jump to any conclusion without looking at the other side of the
coin. The key to this is the timing. Were NomKo, NomYeej, NeejThoob,
XwNplooj, TubPos etc..in the pack of vp’s 3,000 rescues in 1975? Your
statement tempted to misguide readers that the Lee force was
effectively removed as early as 1965. You are dead wrong!
>You are a Lee, so you must know who, among the Lee, were the VP
Being a Lee, I sure do know that vp owed Pacha a debt. Too bad,
instead of paying it back, he chose to hunt every one of the Pacha to
the end. Strange, huh? That’s maybe a Hmong moral law, who knows?
> one of the attempt coup in Longcheng did not succeed because Mr Pacha
Well, since you insist, why don’t you arrange a meeting, face to face,
with VPao, TubLwj, TubPos and any Hmong scholars who would be
interested in knowing the facts. I’ll be there as well, promised.
The next time, be smarter when crazy guy like Lary was trying to set
up a fight among us.
TseemYeej.
ເຄຣຊີ້ແລຣີ້
So no money for Phalak from you then? Stabbing those Phalak people in