Worlds Apart, The Haitian Superelite
Jules
''It would cost me too much here to live the way I lived in Haiti,''
said Nader, who has a commuter marriage with her husband, a
Port-au-Prince resident.
Kafou Lobo
Ok..... where are you going with this dribe-by post?
Kafou "Just curious." Lobo
Jules
"Kafou Lobo" <ka...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nqutuv8cnf24i823j...@4ax.com...
> Ok..... where are you going with this dribe-by post?
>
> Kafou "Just curious." Lobo
Think whatever you want of it bro. Just contrast the reality
of the life of the super bourgeoie their concerns to that of the
rest of Haiti's starving population, I don't think you see a sense
of urgency or concern over the dire situation of the country.
These people have monopolized the Haitian Art industry, exploited
the poor artists by paying them a penny on the dollar for their artwork
and in spite of the millions of dollars they have made on the backs of
these poor artists, they have done nothing for the country's education
system, they have not even made any contribution to the field in which
they have profited so much from.
Jules
Annette
Jules <kze...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:vuu1sci...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Kafou Lobo" <ka...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:nqutuv8cnf24i823j...@4ax.com...
> > On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 05:42:32 -0500, Jules <kze...@lycos.com> wrote:
> >
>
> > Ok..... where are you going with this dribe-by post?
> >
> > Kafou "Just curious." Lobo
>
> Think whatever you want of it bro. Just contrast the reality
> of the life of the super bourgeoie their concerns to that of the
> rest of Haiti's starving population, I don't think you see a sense
> of urgency or concern over the dire situation of the country.
>
> These people have monopolized the Haitian Art industry, exploited
> the poor artists by paying them a penny on the dollar for their artwork
> and in spite of the millions of dollars they have made on the backs of
> these poor artists, they have done nothing for the country's education
> system, they have not even made any contribution to the field in which
> they have profited so much from.
> Jules
(My thoughts are back *in Haiti*)...As far as I can remember *the artists*
have no Protection...meaning there is *something lacking* in Haiti as far as
evaluating the tableaux of *some* less-known artists, but their work of art
as *much value* and this is where "some" profit of this situation and pay
pennies for tableaux which brings them a handsome price in profit! Buyers of
Primitive Art have found a Heaven in Haiti and there should be a Union of
Artists formed to stop that exploitation of many artists...
Kafou Lobo
>
>"Kafou Lobo" <ka...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:nqutuv8cnf24i823j...@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 05:42:32 -0500, Jules <kze...@lycos.com> wrote:
>>
>
>> Ok..... where are you going with this dribe-by post?
>>
>> Kafou "Just curious." Lobo
>
>Think whatever you want of it bro. Just contrast the reality
>of the life of the super bourgeoie their concerns to that of the
>rest of Haiti's starving population, I don't think you see a sense
>of urgency or concern over the dire situation of the country.
>
>These people have monopolized the Haitian Art industry, exploited
>the poor artists by paying them a penny on the dollar for their artwork
>and in spite of the millions of dollars they have made on the backs of
>these poor artists, they have done nothing for the country's education
>system, they have not even made any contribution to the field in which
>they have profited so much from.
Well, the last name is Nader. Does that sound Haitian to you?
See, our elites are NOT national in origin, what motivations
do they then have in investing in the country?
Kafou "THAT my friend, is the question." Lobo
Kafou Lobo
Bingo! The problem is, who is brave enough to challenge such
monopolies? This sh*t is like the Maffia.
K.
Annette
Well....If *no one* does anything, I am sorry to say that talks and
grievances saying that Haitians are *always* exploited by the Blancs and La
Bourgeoisies Haitienne will go on and on...Eh ben, you know that just
bitching about problems in Haiti *does bring in money for some!*. Many are
getting a lot of *free publicity* and darn the Government is staying clear
out of the *real problems* in Haiti and concentrating only on intern
Political problems and who is going to be the next sitting in la maudite
chaise! LOL
I am nearly on the verge of giving up...:((
Jules
<len.a...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>Well....If *no one* does anything, I am sorry to say that talks and
>grievances saying that Haitians are *always* exploited by the Blancs and La
>Bourgeoisies Haitienne will go on and on.
>
is, we never had a government who even understands the role of
government, which is to protect the people and administer justice.
Abraham Lincoln said that the role of government is to do for the
people what they need to have done and either cannot do for themselves
or cannot do as well on their own.They think that the role of
government is to do for themselves and no one else, that is why they
embark on this self enrichment mode, from the very moment they get in
government. That's why it's so important that we put the RIGHT
government in place, once we get rid of this guy.
>
> Nader notes that her family was doing well in Haiti. Her father, Georges
> S. Nader, is the founder of Nader's Art Galleries and Nader's Art Museum
> in Petionville and Port-au-Prince. The gallery has an inventory of more
> than 20,000 pieces of Haitian art.
>
>The 37-year-old family-owned business **represents** most of the major
>artists in Haiti
>
The word REPRESENTS here means CONTROLS, the Haitian elite do so by
extending small lines of credit of five to six hundred dollars to the
poor artist, barely enough to buy the material and supplies to produce
this art piece that they work months to produce and since they are
already in debt they have no option other than to sell to those guys
because they are the ones who controls them.
They sell exclusively to them and they receive another line of credit
which forces them to continue to produce for them using the line of
credit as income, and the vicious cycle goes on and on and nothing has
ever been done about it. No politician has ever even addressed the
issue.
Thirty seven family owned business...that takes you back to the days
of Papa doc Duvalier, I'm even willing to think that these people
entered the country at about the same time and for the same reason as
Mohammed Fayed did.
>
> Raised in Haiti's elite class, Nader admits having to adjust to a much
> more middle-class lifestyle here.
>
Don't think for a minute that she does not have her maid here or her
million dollar home. She is just not used to having so few of them,
and that makes her want to go home to sweet Haiti, where she has a
legion of restaveks that she can call on by the ringing of the bell.
It's all about the LIFESTYLE baby.... nothing else.
Jules
Jules
>Thirty seven family owned business...that takes you back to the days
>of Papa doc Duvalier, I'm even willing to think that these people
>entered the country at about the same time and for the same reason as
>Mohammed Fayed did.
>
CORRECTION ***37 year old family owned business***
Annette
(Snip)
>. That's why it's so important that we put the RIGHT
> government in place, once we get rid of this guy.
:) Don't forget that he, (president Aristide) has another slogan in his
speeches, that is that: "You see, I am wearing long sleeves", now it is the
New Image he want's to give, so I presume he, (Aristide) want's to be the
Boss for a long time, and everybody else will have to *lift their sleeves*
and do all the hard work! LOL
Mèzami.....Quotes like that can only come from Haiti....... now "one" has to
guess what the hell he, (Aristide) has got up his sleeves! LOL
wiley
> On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 11:39:13 -0500, "Jules" <kze...@lycos.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Kafou Lobo" <ka...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:nqutuv8cnf24i823j...@4ax.com...
> >> On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 05:42:32 -0500, Jules <kze...@lycos.com> wrote:
> >>
>
> >> Ok..... where are you going with this dribe-by post?
> >>
> >> Kafou "Just curious." Lobo
> >
> >Think whatever you want of it bro. Just contrast the reality
> >of the life of the super bourgeoie their concerns to that of the
> >rest of Haiti's starving population, I don't think you see a sense
> >of urgency or concern over the dire situation of the country.
> >
> >These people have monopolized the Haitian Art industry, exploited
> >the poor artists by paying them a penny on the dollar for their artwork
> >and in spite of the millions of dollars they have made on the backs of
> >these poor artists, they have done nothing for the country's education
> >system, they have not even made any contribution to the field in which
> >they have profited so much from.
>
> Well, the last name is Nader. Does that sound Haitian to you?
Kafou, you're walking on thin ice there, does your name sound american
?
*
''We have a rich culture,'' said Nader, whose grandparents on both
sides immigrated to Haiti from Lebanon. ``We are mixed.
*
She goes back to grandparents in Haiti and in your view she's not
Haitian enough ?
> See, our elites are NOT national in origin, what motivations
> do they then have in investing in the country?
If she is not a Haitian national i dont know what is.
*
Nader notes that her family was doing well in Haiti. Her father,
Georges S. Nader, is the founder of Nader's Art Galleries and Nader's
Art Museum in Petionville and Port-au-Prince. The gallery has an
inventory of more than 20,000 pieces of Haitian art.
*
Sounds to me like they have invested quite a bit in Haiti, most( OK
all ) of this art will be sold to foreigners for dollars, being that
the money will go further in Haiti than in the US, my guess will be
that a lot of it will be spent there. And considering that it's just
paint on canvas, not a bad deal for Haiti ( dont know about the artist
tho).
Annette
Thought *The Life of a Haitian Painter* quite interesting to read, it
describes very well the hard life and work of Haitian artists:
Copied:
The Life of a Haitian Artist
By Theresa Smolen
Special to The Haitian Times
Pétion-Ville - Lesly Cétout, a 30-year-old Haitian artist who believes his
abstracts are most like Picasso's in style, does not paint the struggles of
Haitian life, but rather the beauty of his country and its people. "The real
lives of most Haitians are miserable," he explained. Cétout lives in a poor
section of Pétion-Ville.
"My neighbors and I have no electricity, no running water; it is very
crowded and noisy, and there are lots of rats, dust and dirt," he said
recently. "It's a long walk to the street; the road is terrible and follows
a big ravine that is full of garbage, sewage and dead animals."
Despite the realities, Haitian artists are known for their bright
multi-colored works of art. The beauty is evident more in the rugged terrain
and in the people than in the overall reality of life in Haiti. A beautiful
painting of a crowded market in Port-au-Prince can be created when the
potholes, dirt, garbage and starving street children are eschewed for the
sea of Haitians wearing clothing in every color of the crayon box and the
brightly painted tap taps, pickup trucks with benches installed in the back
that are used for public transportation. Cétout gets the most enjoyment from
painting flowers, but said these do not sell well unless the artist is
already known and admired. He also paints market and street scenes, pastoral
scenes and abstract portraits.
According to Cétout, people see similarities between his paintings and those
of Henri Matisse and Paul Klee. In his Notes of a Painter, Henri Matisse
wrote about dreaming of an art devoid of troubling or depressing subject
matter and his paintings reflect this desire. Matisse began using more
vibrant colors after a visit to Morocco in 1912.
Paul Klee became known for his use of color after he visited Tunisia in 1914
and declared himself "possessed by color," because the brilliancy of light
and color of the African landscape so affected him. In addition, Klee showed
a willingness to experiment with different styles, techniques and materials.
He would paint on almost anything, including glass, wood, paper, newsprint,
and plaster.
Cétout also enjoys experimenting and trying new things. "I have done several
paintings on carpeting, something that is totally new to me and to Haitian
art," said Cétout. "Another time I experimented with painting on blue jeans
fabric since I didn't have any regular canvas at the time. I discovered that
this fabric is better than ordinary canvas because it is tougher."
He said that it is very difficult to be an artist in Haiti and only about 30
percent of Haitian artists prosper. "Most receive nothing but the intrinsic
pleasure of creativity," he said. Cétout said the reason there are so many
painters and other artists in Haiti is that other opportunities are very
limited and require education.
"You don't have to be formally educate to be an artist," he said. "If you
have talent, there will be opportunities." Although, he concedes, artists
are likely to have more opportunities and more success if they can afford a
teacher and good supplies. "My formal art education only began in January
2003," said Cétout. "I am still mastering fundamental techniques and
experimenting with different styles of painting. After I establish a
personal style and a solid reputation, then I can experiment again with new
styles and subjects."
Cétout's Haitian role models are Lesly Joseph and Lyonel Laurenceau. Joseph,
a 35-year old painter who lives in the Dominican Republic, paints abstracts
in the Saint Soleil style using linear patterns and symbolism reflecting
practices of vodou and, while not yet well known, he is recognized as a good
painter. Laurenceau is a painter associated with the School of Beauty, which
incorporated modernist styles with local themes and produced paintings that
were devoid of political messages and unreflective of the harsh reality of
life of Haiti.
" Everything he does is natural and full of life and movement," Cétout said
of Laurenceau's work. As is typical of many Haitians, Cétout has several
jobs, including painter of all things, translator, former bodyguard and
teacher. His main source of income since September 2002 is teaching at Wings
of Hope, a home for disabled orphaned children in Fermathe, a town an hour
away from his home. " I have no special training for this job, but have
learned on the job and from others," he said. "I teach 12 students from
three to 22 years old, who have a wide range of disabilities and abilities.
It is a difficult and exhausting job."
Cétout's passion is painting though. He has turned down good job offers and
postponed marrying and starting a family, because his goal is to establish
himself as a respected Haitian artist.
He paints in the evening by candlelight and a lantern. "The people of Haiti
are simply extraordinary; they are so tough and resilient," said Sally Cole,
an American who gave Cétout the lantern. "They expect difficulties and they
don't moan and groan about them when they come; they just deal with it with
patience, flexibility and a sense of humor."
Cétout primarily sells his paintings to missionaries or other visitors to
Haiti. According to Cétout, although visitors to Haiti will see a lot of
"street art," a serious artist won't sell his paintings on the street.
"Street artists paint for tourists who want souvenirs, they don't use good
materials, and the canvasses are often damaged by weather," he explained.
Cole said one of the reasons that it is so difficult to develop as an artist
in Haiti, is that daily survival itself is a constant challenge. "One's
concept of 'progress' and 'development' change significantly after living in
Haiti for awhile," she said. "Often one's entire day is spent working at one
job or another, traveling long distances by public transportation on roads
that are usually crowded, dealing with bureaucracy and attending to family
problems.all in a country where many lack electricity, plumbing, basic
sanitary needs, and clean drinking water."
Cétout's dream is to become a famous artist and help his mother and the rest
of his poor family. He would also like to marry and have a family of his
own, in addition to establishing a "big, big orphanage that takes care of
many children and provides them with education and professional training so
that they will grow up with a heart for helping others."
>
>
H.V
> Kafou Lobo <ka...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<nl6uuv4denn70pl9v...@4ax.com>...
> > On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 11:39:13 -0500, "Jules" <kze...@lycos.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >"Kafou Lobo" <ka...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > >news:nqutuv8cnf24i823j...@4ax.com...
> > >> On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 05:42:32 -0500, Jules <kze...@lycos.com> wrote:
> > >>
>
> > >> Ok..... where are you going with this dribe-by post?
> > >>
> > >> Kafou "Just curious." Lobo
> > >
> > >Think whatever you want of it bro. Just contrast the reality
> > >of the life of the super bourgeoie their concerns to that of the
> > >rest of Haiti's starving population, I don't think you see a sense
> > >of urgency or concern over the dire situation of the country.
> > >
> > >These people have monopolized the Haitian Art industry, exploited
> > >the poor artists by paying them a penny on the dollar for their artwork
> > >and in spite of the millions of dollars they have made on the backs of
> > >these poor artists, they have done nothing for the country's education
> > >system, they have not even made any contribution to the field in which
> > >they have profited so much from.
> >
> > Well, the last name is Nader. Does that sound Haitian to you?
>
> Kafou, you're walking on thin ice there, does your name sound american
> ?
>
Kafou is just telling the truth.
This woman is a Lebanese who lives/lived in haiti but she is not a
haitian. The mulatre/syro-lebanese elite will never do anything for
haiti for the simple reason that they are not the same people as the
black haitians.
They know it, the black haitians know it too. They certainly act like
they're not the same people .
Why was nothing done in the 30s when 10s of thousands of (black)
haitians were massacred in the dominican republic ? Nothing was done
because the mulatre in power at the time did not feel concerned at
all. The dead were blacks, and for them that meant a bunch of niggers
that they didn't care about.
There are haitian lebs here in montreal. From what i can see, they
hang out with other lebs, not black haitians .
My point btw, it not to urge lebs to start loving black people all of
a sudden.
That won't happen and blacks should not care about that anyways.
I believe that there are ethnic states and Haiti is one of them.
Lebanon is the same (there is no way in hell that i'd be considered
lebanese even if all my grandparents had been born there)
> *
>
> ''We have a rich culture,'' said Nader, whose grandparents on both
> sides immigrated to Haiti from Lebanon. ``We are mixed.
>
> *
>
Her culture is lebaneon, ugarit, tyre, sidon, etc, not haiti.
> She goes back to grandparents in Haiti and in your view she's not
> Haitian enough ?
>
In my view she isn't. When this woman wants to marry, she is more
likely to go find some guy in beyrouth than a black haitian either in
miami or haiti.
(Please note : im not saying that she should marry a black haitian.
just saying that she is not likely to do that.)
>
> > See, our elites are NOT national in origin, what motivations
> > do they then have in investing in the country?
>
> If she is not a Haitian national i dont know what is.
>
> *
If you want it spelled out to you here it is : She's not of the same
race as 90% of haitians.
>
> Nader notes that her family was doing well in Haiti. Her father,
> Georges S. Nader, is the founder of Nader's Art Galleries and Nader's
> Art Museum in Petionville and Port-au-Prince. The gallery has an
> inventory of more than 20,000 pieces of Haitian art.
>
I'm thankful for this sponsorship of haitian art. This is to be
praised. On the other hand how many times have they treated black
haitians like nigger slaves ?
> *
>
>
> Sounds to me like they have invested quite a bit in Haiti, most( OK
> all ) of this art will be sold to foreigners for dollars, being that
> the money will go further in Haiti than in the US, my guess will be
> that a lot of it will be spent there. And considering that it's just
> paint on canvas, not a bad deal for Haiti ( dont know about the artist
> tho).
> >
No a lot of it will probably be invested in the dominican republic or
used to buy luxury goods from abroad.
In any case , i don't have a real problem with the fact that her
parents made money in haiti. People have the right to open businesses
and make money. The problem lies more in the methods that lebs use
wherever they're doing commerce with blacks (this also applies to
africa where the EXACT same pattern occurs). They will never hesitate
to bribe and pay off the local corrupt authorities for their own
advantage. They also tend to have NO respect whatsoever for the blacks
who make them rich. I'm not saying that they're not working for their
money ! They do, but without those haitians (and africans) they'd
still be herding goats in some village in lebanon, not living in
ostentatious luxury.
To end this, I'm not accusing the mulatre/lebs of being entirely
responsible for the sorry state that haiti is in. The fault lies in
many hands including that of the black population (there's only so
much that can be blamed on others for one's troubles).
The fact is that those communities , in the way they have acted, have
signified *clearly* that they do not consider themselves part of the
haitian people. Their actions throughout the years have shown it, even
if their words pointed towards unity.
When the black people of haiti finally get their f*ck*n shit together,
they will have to rectify a few things .
sulfugor
GWhyte
"H.V" <sulf...@rocketmail.com> wrote in message
news:279b566d.04010...@posting.google.com...
Bellyaching on the economic success of Lebanon-Syrian minorities in Haiti or
elsewhere in the Caribbean or Latin America doesn't really help anyone
understand why they are so successful nor will it hasten that happy day
"when the black people of Haiti finally get their f*ck*n shit together". How
will they "rectify"? Did Amin "rectify" anything by chasing out the Asians
in Uganda? Ugandan Asians are just as successful in Britain where they were
forced to go.
To say that Mulattoes and Lebanese do not consider themselves part of the
"Haitian community" is really substituting the adjective "Haitian" for
"black". It doesn't contribute to any real analysis. It's just stating that
identified minorities are more successful than the majority. They can then
be more easily used as scapegoats without analysing any of the issues
affecting the majority population.
At this point I will sit back and wait for the accusations of being a
foreigner who knows nothing about Haiti, before continuing on the subject..
wiley
> America is not an ethnic state.
Your statement above raises some very interesting questions. If We
look at Haiti as an ethnic state and the Lebanese as non-nationals
after 4 or 5 generations, could Turks in Germany ever be considered
Germans ? Whites in Zimbabwe ? or South Africa ? Jamaicans in England
?
What about Haitians in south Florida, do they switch their allegiance
from Haiti to America or are they still Haitian ?
BTW GWhyte responded to your post very well IMHO.
>
> I believe that there are ethnic states and Haiti is one of them.
> Lebanon is the same (there is no way in hell that i'd be considered
> lebanese even if all my grandparents had been born there)
IMO, an ethnic state would have to go back at least a thousand years
of inter-breeding. Iran and Japan would be prime examples. Not England
by that measure, to many invasions, vikings, Normans and Saxons.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > *
>
> In my view she isn't. When this woman wants to marry, she is more
> likely to go find some guy in beyrouth than a black haitian either in
> miami or haiti.
> (Please note : im not saying that she should marry a black haitian.
> just saying that she is not likely to do that.)
This could be said of any identifiable group where they would have a
choice.
> When the black people of haiti finally get their f*ck*n shit together,
> they will have to rectify a few things .
>
> sulfugor
>
That sounds like a threat and from what little i know of Haitian
history, Haiti could do without more threats and divisions.
Jules
wrote:
>Bellyaching on the economic success of Lebanon-Syrian minorities in Haiti or
>elsewhere in the Caribbean or Latin America doesn't really help anyone
>understand why they are so successful nor will it hasten that happy day
>"when the black people of Haiti finally get their f*ck*n shit together".
>
I must tell you that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Haiti' s business elite function in a totally laissez-faire
environment where profit is maximized without any government oversight
or concern. A situation which results in the fact that we now have
only a few families monopolizing every sector of the economy at the
expense of the poor.
No one is bellyaching on anyone's success, the issue here is one of
fairness, exploitation, monopoly on the part of this select group of
insensitive businessmen and of corrupt and inept government who have
no business being where they are because they do not have the faintest
idea on what is the purpose of government.
>
> How
>will they "rectify"? Did Amin "rectify" anything by chasing out the Asians
>in Uganda? Ugandan Asians are just as successful in Britain where they were
>forced to go.
>
The answer is not in chasing anyone out, but it is of developing a
system that allows the small businessmen to compete on an equal
footing as anyone else. The artist who labor so hard in his craft MUST
be able to negotiate the terms under which his work is sold and the
government must enforce laws that protect everyone in society.
>
>To say that Mulattoes and Lebanese do not consider themselves part of the
>"Haitian community" is really substituting the adjective "Haitian" for
>"black". It doesn't contribute to any real analysis. It's just stating that
>identified minorities are more successful than the majority. They can then
>be more easily used as scapegoats without analysing any of the issues
>affecting the majority population.
>
They are NOT haitians, they are leeches that are sucking the blood out
of our people, like I said previously, they do not invest in our
country, their children do not go to school in Haiti, they do not even
allow their children to be born in our country in order just to make
sure that they are born citizens of other countries. In my view, they
should be considered as foreign investors and be dealt likewise.
Jules
Jules
>Your statement above raises some very interesting questions. If We
>look at Haiti as an ethnic state and the Lebanese as non-nationals
>after 4 or 5 generations, could Turks in Germany ever be considered
>Germans ? Whites in Zimbabwe ? or South Africa ? Jamaicans in England
>?
>
>What about Haitians in south Florida, do they switch their allegiance
>from Haiti to America or are they still Haitian ?
>
>BTW GWhyte responded to your post very well IMHO.
>
The issue here is one of behavior. Do you conduct yourself as Haitian,
or do you conduct yourself as Lebanese or whatever?.
Again the blame is not totally on the back of the insensitive foreign
businessman but rest for the most part on the stupid haitian
government who failed to define what *IS* and *IS NOT* considered
foreign and foreigner.
Jules
H.V
> foreigner who knows nothing about Haiti, before continuing on the subject..
I certainly wouldn't throw such accusations at you as you seem a
knowleadgeable person whose writings i find interesting.
> Bellyaching on the economic success of Lebanon-Syrian minorities in Haiti or
> elsewhere in the Caribbean or Latin America doesn't really help anyone
> understand why they are so successful nor will it hasten that happy day
> "when the black people of Haiti finally get their f*ck*n shit together". How
> will they "rectify"? Did Amin "rectify" anything by chasing out the Asians
> in Uganda? Ugandan Asians are just as successful in Britain where they were
> forced to go.
The Lebanese are successful in commerce and other sectors wherever
they establish themselves. I dont begrudge them that. What i resent is
the treatment of blacks as worthless n*ggers in haiti and elsewhere
(africa for example).
Idi Amin and the ugandans didn't solve anything , you're right.
Idi probably did it for his own personal reasons, without any plan of
action
I've read that the indians are back in Uganda and are back at the helm
of every industry .
I guess ugandans didn't learn anything in the meantime ...
I must admit that i have conflicting feelings about all this.
On one hand i deeply resent the attitude of those merchant minorities,
whom i feel should refrain from having contempt for the people who
play a part in their commercial success. On the other hand i resent
the blacks for putting themselves in that situation in the first
place. Why can't a segment of the ugandan or haitian population do it
right so that one doesn't need to deal with contemptuous foreigners ?
Why couldnt *some* ugandans do something during those 30 years that
the indians were out ? it maddens me...
It's the haitians country, why can't THEY be the richest people . Why
can't those haitians who are involved in commerce do it better ? I
wish i knew the answer ...
Basically, I want the black majorities to do the smart thing, with
regards to commerce : take it over, keep control of it and make the
contemptuous foreigners **unnecessary** (by running commerce extremely
well of course!).
The lebanese are doing their own thing, for their own exclusive
benefit. Good for them, but the black people don't have to put up with
contempt and they shouldn't .
> To say that Mulattoes and Lebanese do not consider themselves part of the
> "Haitian community" is really substituting the adjective "Haitian" for
> "black". It doesn't contribute to any real analysis. It's just stating that
> identified minorities are more successful than the majority. They can then
> be more easily used as scapegoats without analysing any of the issues
> affecting the majority population.
As i said, i think that , deeply, they do not feel part of the same
people as the black population . The historical example i gave was
what made me think that way. I couldn't understand how a haitian gov
let 1000s of haitians get butchered with machetes in the DR with no
reaction whatsoever.
Then i remembered that it was a mulatre gov at the time. I then
thought that it's possible that the mulatre gov didn't feel concerned
at all about the tragedy. But i will readily admit that this is all
based on my impressions. I wasn't writing a scholarly paper :)
To end this, i won't deny that i'm viewing this from an ethnocentric
point of view. I can't help feeling some kind of "family tie" with the
blacks, a somewhat weaker tie with the mulatres and no tie at all with
the syro-lebanese. They're just another people to me and i'm sure they
(in general) feel the same about me.
sulf
H.V
> sulf...@rocketmail.com (H.V) wrote in message
>
>
> > America is not an ethnic state.
>
> Your statement above raises some very interesting questions. If We
> look at Haiti as an ethnic state and the Lebanese as non-nationals
> after 4 or 5 generations, could Turks in Germany ever be considered
> Germans ? Whites in Zimbabwe ? or South Africa ? Jamaicans in England
> ?
>
haitian *nationals*. They have the papers, but when i think of
"haitians", somehow the image of a lebanese person doesn't spring to
mind.
Come on, they themselves see themselves as lebanese first.
I will let germans decide whom they consider german. If they want
germanness to be exclusively defined by blut, so be it, it's their
people.
Whites in zimbabwe have a fairly..problematic history won't you agree
?
My *personal* preference would be for things to work out harmoniously
between the whites and blacks over there , but i think the blacks have
some good reasons not to trust/like the local whites who, after all,
less than 100 years ago, robbed their land. I wish them to come to
whatever agreement is best .
Whites in south africa have a more complicated history and some of the
areas they colonized were not occupied by the bantu.
> What about Haitians in south Florida, do they switch their allegiance
> from Haiti to America or are they still Haitian ?
>
This is purely my opinion but i think they're both americans and
haitians. As long as they don't do anything against their new country,
i feel that they can still care a whole lot about their old
country.Their children will probably progressively feel more and more
american ...Time will tell.
>
>
> BTW GWhyte responded to your post very well IMHO.
>
>
> >
> > I believe that there are ethnic states and Haiti is one of them.
> > Lebanon is the same (there is no way in hell that i'd be considered
> > lebanese even if all my grandparents had been born there)
>
>
> IMO, an ethnic state would have to go back at least a thousand years
> of inter-breeding. Iran and Japan would be prime examples. Not England
> by that measure, to many invasions, vikings, Normans and Saxons.
>
You have a point , although your thousand year citerion is totally
arbitrary, but that's ok, im being quite arbitrary too :)
Let's just say then that the different indigenous ethnies of haiti are
the blacks (who freely intermarry, regardles of origin in africa) and
the mulatres . The lebanese came much later and, most importantly,
mostly kept to themselves , thus proclaiming their separateness .
>
> >
> > In my view she isn't. When this woman wants to marry, she is more
> > likely to go find some guy in beyrouth than a black haitian either in
> > miami or haiti.
> > (Please note : im not saying that she should marry a black haitian.
> > just saying that she is not likely to do that.)
>
> This could be said of any identifiable group where they would have a
> choice.
>
What exactly do you mean by that ? People tend to marry those that
they feel belong to the same group. If the leb guy from west-beyrouth
is a much more likely partner than the black haitian from the same
city, doesn't that say something about which group the woman belongs
to ?
> > When the black people of haiti finally get their f*ck*n shit together,
> > they will have to rectify a few things .
> >
> > sulfugor
> >
>
> That sounds like a threat and from what little i know of Haitian
> history, Haiti could do without more threats and divisions.
My view is that haitians are first of a all a black people. It so
happens that this black people has less than rosy relations with 2
other groups present on haitian land. The black haitian group needs to
take control of its destiny and build a real country (i don't know
how, but i know for sure that it must be done) for itself.
The point is not to threaten revenge . The point is that once black
haitians finally get it together, contempt for them coming from the
other 2 communities won't be a problem anymore. It won't be practical
anyways....
About division : it's already deeply divided. The 2 rich communities
do not care one bit about the 3rd (largest) community. Thus the 3rd
community needs to take matters into its own hands.
sulf
ps = i freely admit that this stuff i've written is based on whatever
(possibly incorrect) info and impressions i have. It's one man's
impressions and ideas, that's all .
GWhyte
> On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 08:32:31 GMT, "GWhyte" <gwhyt...@rogers.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Bellyaching on the economic success of Lebanon-Syrian minorities in Haiti
or
> >elsewhere in the Caribbean or Latin America doesn't really help anyone
> >understand why they are so successful nor will it hasten that happy day
> >"when the black people of Haiti finally get their f*ck*n shit together".
> >
> I must tell you that you have no idea what you are talking about.
> Haiti' s business elite function in a totally laissez-faire
> environment where profit is maximized without any government oversight
> or concern. A situation which results in the fact that we now have
> only a few families monopolizing every sector of the economy at the
> expense of the poor.
And what I'm saying is that Haiti is no exception in terms of what is
happening in all of Latin America and the Caribbean. In Jamaica it used to
be 21 families most of whom were Lebanese and Jews. The fact that there are
some very rich prominent mulattoes makes the reality not as stark. Haiti is
probably just a matter of the extent, plus the fact as you point out that
there are less governmental controls.
You should also consider the degree of economic control of a minority in the
US. Several years ago the Waall Street Journal of all people stated that the
combined family income of the richest 10% of the population was equal to
that of the remaining 90%. Even though I no longer consider myself a
socialist, I would advise you to read the works of Michael Parenti to get an
idea of the scale of the control.
> No one is bellyaching on anyone's success, the issue here is one of
> fairness, exploitation, monopoly on the part of this select group of
> insensitive businessmen
Could this also apply to the US generally?
and of corrupt and inept government who have
> no business being where they are because they do not have the faintest
> idea on what is the purpose of government.
Governments must be forced to respect constitutions and the rule of law for
real progress to be made
> >
> > How
> >will they "rectify"? Did Amin "rectify" anything by chasing out the
Asians
> >in Uganda? Ugandan Asians are just as successful in Britain where they
were
> >forced to go.
> >
> The answer is not in chasing anyone out, but it is of developing a
> system that allows the small businessmen to compete on an equal
> footing as anyone else.
I am the first to agree. But have you never shopped at Wallmart's?
The artist who labor so hard in his craft MUST
> be able to negotiate the terms under which his work is sold and the
> government must enforce laws that protect everyone in society.
Right on.
> >
> >To say that Mulattoes and Lebanese do not consider themselves part of the
> >"Haitian community" is really substituting the adjective "Haitian" for
> >"black". It doesn't contribute to any real analysis. It's just stating
that
> >identified minorities are more successful than the majority. They can
then
> >be more easily used as scapegoats without analysing any of the issues
> >affecting the majority population.
> >
> They are NOT haitians, they are leeches that are sucking the blood out
> of our people, like I said previously, they do not invest in our
> country, their children do not go to school in Haiti, they do not even
> allow their children to be born in our country in order just to make
> sure that they are born citizens of other countries.
Let me give you some news. The elites of ALL Latin American countries act
exactly in the same manner. Elites like everyone else act in their own
self-interest. Just stating the facts, not condoning it.
In my view, they
> should be considered as foreign investors and be dealt likewise.
The reality is that very often they go where angels fear to tread. So no
government can afford to treat its national bourgeoisie as foreigners. Marx
said something of the kind but it is all a distant memory. Some young
radical can elucidate on this.
Thanks for replying. Keep it up.
GWhyte
WE need to talk specifics. I once asked a guy who lives in Brooklyn to tell
me about black-owned supermarkets or any major businesses there. He hasn't
replied up to now. I will ask you the same thing if you live in a
heavily-black populated neighbourhood. Where do you get your groceries? Dine
out? Get dry-cleaning? Order pizza? Get convenience-store items? Get junk
food? Buy clothes?
Blacks will not be taken seriously by others until and unless we get into
business in a MAJOR way. The Chinese have no problems identifying Chinese
businesses in answer to the questions above.
Haiti is really no different than Brooklyn.
>
> Idi Amin and the ugandans didn't solve anything , you're right.
> Idi probably did it for his own personal reasons, without any plan of
> action
> I've read that the indians are back in Uganda and are back at the helm
> of every industry .
> I guess ugandans didn't learn anything in the meantime ...
> I must admit that i have conflicting feelings about all this.
> On one hand i deeply resent the attitude of those merchant minorities,
> whom i feel should refrain from having contempt for the people who
> play a part in their commercial success.
It's not a case of individual people but a recognition that the culture is
different and that they prefer their own culture.
On the other hand i resent
> the blacks for putting themselves in that situation in the first
> place. Why can't a segment of the ugandan or haitian population do it
> right so that one doesn't need to deal with contemptuous foreigners ?
> Why couldnt *some* ugandans do something during those 30 years that
> the indians were out ? it maddens me...
> It's the haitians country, why can't THEY be the richest people . Why
> can't those haitians who are involved in commerce do it better ? I
> wish i knew the answer ...
Now if you read Tom Sowell's books you will begin to understand. But as he
is regarded as an "Uncle Tom" by most Blacks he is not taken seriously.
>
> Basically, I want the black majorities to do the smart thing, with
> regards to commerce : take it over, keep control of it and make the
> contemptuous foreigners **unnecessary** (by running commerce extremely
> well of course!).
Of course. Everybody else does it.
> The lebanese are doing their own thing, for their own exclusive
> benefit. Good for them, but the black people don't have to put up with
> contempt and they shouldn't .
I once described to Kafou (in French) some very protective parents (elite)
who zoomed in on me while I was chatting with a Lebanese-Jamaican girl at a
cocktail party many years ago. The daughter was obviously getting too
interested and laughing too much at what I was saying. Was that contempt?
No. They were just protecting their culture. No big deal.
>
> > To say that Mulattoes and Lebanese do not consider themselves part of
the
> > "Haitian community" is really substituting the adjective "Haitian" for
> > "black". It doesn't contribute to any real analysis. It's just stating
that
> > identified minorities are more successful than the majority. They can
then
> > be more easily used as scapegoats without analysing any of the issues
> > affecting the majority population.
>
> As i said, i think that , deeply, they do not feel part of the same
> people as the black population . The historical example i gave was
> what made me think that way. I couldn't understand how a haitian gov
> let 1000s of haitians get butchered with machetes in the DR with no
> reaction whatsoever.
> Then i remembered that it was a mulatre gov at the time. I then
> thought that it's possible that the mulatre gov didn't feel concerned
> at all about the tragedy. But i will readily admit that this is all
> based on my impressions. I wasn't writing a scholarly paper :)
>
> To end this, i won't deny that i'm viewing this from an ethnocentric
> point of view. I can't help feeling some kind of "family tie" with the
> blacks, a somewhat weaker tie with the mulatres and no tie at all with
> the syro-lebanese. They're just another people to me and i'm sure they
> (in general) feel the same about me.
>
> sulf
Got to run since I'm not independently rich like some others. But I'll
continue.
Gro Mango
> of the life of the super bourgeoie their concerns to that of the
> rest of Haiti's starving population, I don't think you see a sense
> of urgency or concern over the dire situation of the country.
>
> These people have monopolized the Haitian Art industry, exploited
> the poor artists by paying them a penny on the dollar for their artwork
> and in spite of the millions of dollars they have made on the backs of
> these poor artists, they have done nothing for the country's education
> system, they have not even made any contribution to the field in which
> they have profited so much from.
>
> Jules
First...happy new year! ;-) Second...are we still on this subject!?
Good. But I still think you are taking this to the extreme. "These
people" are not the problem, although they should have been part of
the solution...sorta like recycling, now what I mean? You are correct
that there is no sense of urgency, there has never been an aggressive
movement to better the country. But you can't blame Haiti's problems
on the elite, or superelite as you now call "them". You are mixing
apples and oranges. What you should be most concerned about is how to
fix things...not who broke it. That's why we are in this situation
now. Blame, blame blame and everyone has a say and has a point. But
everyone is right and everyone is wrong. You continue to ask people to
contribute. One, their is a lot of contribution...certainly not enough
but there is a lot. Two, contribute to who, what, where? You forget
what country we are talking about. Not even here in the U.S. do
Haitians trust one another. Do you really expect Haitians to trust
each other with money? Yes, they should but they don;t and with damned
good reason. Even the poor would rip you off in a heart beat and then
laught at you. Of course everyone doesn't blame them but when one of
the "elite" say they don't trust other Haitians people tend to judge
them. You speak of monopolizing the art industry but don't forget it's
the very same bourgoie that created the niche market by opening venues
to display and promote their art. If it weren't for these efforts
there wouldn't be a market to begin with. As for the street artists
these are the ones trying to get noticed...there must hudnereds of
them, particularly in Petion Ville near Kinam Hotel who are trying to
get noticed. You can't assume that anyone who picks up a paint brush
is gonna make $10,000 off a painting. If that wre so easy I'd move to
Haiti tomorrow. As for the country's education system that a state
issue. But for the contribution to the field they make their money
from, I'm not sure what you mean specifically.
> > >''It would cost me too much here to live the way I lived in Haiti,''
> > >said Nader, who has a commuter marriage with her husband, a
> > >Port-au-Prince resident.
By the way...she's right. I does cost more to live here than in Haiti.
I think you are taking this out of context. The truth is NOT pretty.
Ti Mango "just putting my 2 gourdes in!" ;-)
wiley
> wi...@volcanomail.com (wiley) wrote in message news:<5127328a.04010...@posting.google.com>...
> > sulf...@rocketmail.com (H.V) wrote in message
> >
> >
> > > America is not an ethnic state.
> >
> > Your statement above raises some very interesting questions. If We
> > look at Haiti as an ethnic state and the Lebanese as non-nationals
> > after 4 or 5 generations, could Turks in Germany ever be considered
> > Germans ? Whites in Zimbabwe ? or South Africa ? Jamaicans in England
> > ?
> >
> If you want to be technical about it, then yes the lebanese are
> haitian *nationals*. They have the papers, but when i think of
> "haitians", somehow the image of a lebanese person doesn't spring to
> mind.
> Come on, they themselves see themselves as lebanese first.
>
> I will let germans decide whom they consider german. If they want
> germanness to be exclusively defined by blut, so be it, it's their
> people.
1938 Mar. 12 : Germany invades Austria. Austrians speak german
1938 Oct. 15 : German troops occupy Czech Sudetenland. Sudetenland was
a german settled area of Czechoslovakia.
> Whites in zimbabwe have a fairly..problematic history won't you agree
> ?
> My *personal* preference would be for things to work out harmoniously
> between the whites and blacks over there , but i think the blacks have
> some good reasons not to trust/like the local whites who, after all,
> less than 100 years ago, robbed their land. I wish them to come to
> whatever agreement is best .
> Whites in south africa have a more complicated history and some of the
> areas they colonized were not occupied by the bantu.
>
>
> > What about Haitians in south Florida, do they switch their allegiance
> > from Haiti to America or are they still Haitian ?
> >
>
> This is purely my opinion but i think they're both americans and
> haitians. As long as they don't do anything against their new country,
> i feel that they can still care a whole lot about their old
> country.Their children will probably progressively feel more and more
> american ...Time will tell.
The trouble with all of this is that we can twist the meanings around
to fit our view, most people, regardless of country, think ethnicly.
Like you towards lebanese-haitians, why should i think of
haitian-americans as real americans ?, their loyality is divided, they
may have the papers, but what about their heart ? But sure there are
exceptions, Jules, in discussing US foriegn policy or some such, uses
the magic word *WE* when critizing.
I kind of look at it as if somebody coming to our house to eat at our
table, Dont like the cracked china ? well tough sh*t, its our china
cracks and all.
The US is a product of it's history, both good and bad, just like any
other country. If you come here, you will have to deal with the
consequences of that history. We are not going to adapt to you, you
will adapt to us. No different than if i became a citizen of any other
country. Either that or you will become just another voiceless
outcast.
Jules
>The trouble with all of this is that we can twist the meanings around
>to fit our view, most people, regardless of country, think ethnicly.
>Like you towards lebanese-haitians, why should i think of
>haitian-americans as real americans ?, their loyality is divided, they
>may have the papers, but what about their heart ? But sure there are
>exceptions, Jules, in discussing US foriegn policy or some such, uses
>the magic word *WE* when critizing.
>
If I were from the right, you would have no problem with my
americanness, since I am from the left, it shows unpatriotism in your
mind, as if it was not patriotic for a *foreigner* to criticize the
action of the american government.
Well, I'm NOT a foreigner. I am a naturalized US citizen. I came here
as a teenager and I am now in my forties. I am also a military
veteran, if that means anything.
By using the word *WE* I proclaim my americanness and also my pride
and love for America, including the right to criticize the foreign
policies of this government which almost always are in the interest of
big business, and against *democratic principles* in foreign
countries, especially developing countries where we rather support a
despot who takes orders from us, as long as he/she keeps the natives
in line by whatever means necessary.
I do see your point Wiley, and I understand it, It's coming from the
typical arrogant american *Love it or leave it* mindset that says "
How dare you criticize us when you are not really true americans".
In this case, I must say that your problem here is with the United
States Constitution which guarantees all rights to all americans,
regardless of their national origins, except one, and that is the
office of the president which requires one to be american by birth.
You also have a problem with the word *freedom* which in you mind does
not include rights such as burning or spitting on the flag as an act
of protest against the actions of the government. All these are
cherished american rights, and we must fight to keep them, because
without them, we will be just another totalitarian nation.
Jules
GWhyte
> On 5 Jan 2004 18:23:23 -0800, wi...@volcanomail.com (wiley) wrote:
>
> >The trouble with all of this is that we can twist the meanings around
> >to fit our view, most people, regardless of country, think ethnicly.
> >Like you towards lebanese-haitians, why should i think of
> >haitian-americans as real americans ?, their loyality is divided, they
> >may have the papers, but what about their heart ? But sure there are
> >exceptions, Jules, in discussing US foriegn policy or some such, uses
> >the magic word *WE* when critizing.
> >
> If I were from the right, you would have no problem with my
> americanness, since I am from the left, it shows unpatriotism in your
> mind, as if it was not patriotic for a *foreigner* to criticize the
> action of the american government.
No! No! No! Stick to the subject under discussion. You are imputing to Wiley
positions that he did not take. What does the "Left" mean in modern-day
America, anyway? Left of Bush? Ted Kennedy? Chomsky?
>
> Well, I'm NOT a foreigner. I am a naturalized US citizen. I came here
> as a teenager and I am now in my forties. I am also a military
> veteran, if that means anything.
>
> By using the word *WE* I proclaim my americanness and also my pride
> and love for America, including the right to criticize the foreign
> policies of this government which almost always are in the interest of
> big business, and against *democratic principles* in foreign
> countries, especially developing countries where we rather support a
> despot who takes orders from us, as long as he/she keeps the natives
> in line by whatever means necessary.
Nothing wrong with that.
>
> I do see your point Wiley, and I understand it, It's coming from the
> typical arrogant american *Love it or leave it* mindset that says "
> How dare you criticize us when you are not really true americans".
You are being somewhat disingenious. Wiley is just trying to apply your
attitudes to Lebanese-Haitians to the US situation while you now choose to
get on your high horses and accuse him of being an arrogant American. You
can't have your cake and eat it.
> In this case, I must say that your problem here is with the United
> States Constitution which guarantees all rights to all americans,
> regardless of their national origins, except one, and that is the
> office of the president which requires one to be american by birth.
Are you saying that the Haitian constitution does or should not guarantee
similar rights to its citizens? Especially when they can trace their origins
in Haiti several generations back?
Gro Mango
after landing 5 mintes ago, then he is Haitian. If a Taino Indian
crawls out from his grave and declares he's not Haitian, then he's not
Haitian. I mean you are talking about nationality aren't you? There
are specific laws. There should be no argument here. Now if you guys
are speaking only of ethnicity, then forget it...you'll never agree
because ethinicity is more of a "claim", based on the traditional idea
of the clan or on a smaller level, the family unit. Only those from
within can settle those issues and to be quite frank, what's the point
anyway? The ethno-cleansing of Syrians was another sad tragedy of our
Haitian history that ended a decade ago...why are we bringing it back
up? The Nader's built their gallery with their own money and their own
vision for enterprise. Who da hell are you guys to criticize anyone
from trying to make a living? And everytime some one or some family
makes more than some imaginary limit of what being rich in Haiti
actually is...you guys cry foul! So should there be some socialist
system in place so that money is re-distributed to all? Would that
mean that anyone who wants to do anything in Haiti would have to give
up their earnings to the Republic...a government infamously riddled
with corruption? So does that make one a non-citizen oir national or
ethnic aboriginal because they don't want to hand over their money to
a corrupt government? For crying out loud people...judge not lest you
be judged. Put yourself in these peoples position first...think of all
3 sectors, as you say. Not one of them has any choice. It's a Mexican
standoff and the country's dying while EVERYBODY'S trying to find out
who's fault it is. I tell you what...I'll take the blame. It's my
fault that Haiti is screwed up. And I officially declare that anyone
who wants to be Haitian even if they never stepped foot in the country
in their lives IS HAITIAN. We all know that we need more support, not
less. And this whole argument about the SUPERELITE, the MRE's, the
bourgoiesie, etc, etc, being the evil class that has repressed the
poor for their own enjoyment...do yourselves a favor and visit Haiti.
See for yourselves. Then come back and tell me how can the SUPERELITE
literally and specifically change things in the real context of which
they were born into! I haven't heard one person tell me what they
expect a superelite is supposed to do in Haiti today.
Ti Mango "enough with the blame damnit!
GWhyte
"Gro Mango" <boukm...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8b5ef0ab.04010...@posting.google.com...
wiley
>
> >The trouble with all of this is that we can twist the meanings around
> >to fit our view, most people, regardless of country, think ethnicly.
> >Like you towards lebanese-haitians, why should i think of
> >haitian-americans as real americans ?, their loyality is divided, they
> >may have the papers, but what about their heart ? But sure there are
> >exceptions, Jules, in discussing US foriegn policy or some such, uses
> >the magic word *WE* when critizing.
> >
> If I were from the right, you would have no problem with my
> americanness, since I am from the left, it shows unpatriotism in your
> mind, as if it was not patriotic for a *foreigner* to criticize the
> action of the american government.
(sometimes i dont know where to start) Personally i thought you were a
religous conservative from your opening posts on this forum, are you
and Dara joined at the hip ? =)
>
> Well, I'm NOT a foreigner. I am a naturalized US citizen. I came here
> as a teenager and I am now in my forties. I am also a military
> veteran, if that means anything.
>
> By using the word *WE* I proclaim my americanness and also my pride
> and love for America,
That was my POINT !
> including the right to criticize the foreign
> policies of this government which almost always are in the interest of
> big business, and against *democratic principles* in foreign
> countries, especially developing countries where we rather support a
> despot who takes orders from us, as long as he/she keeps the natives
> in line by whatever means necessary.
Repeat after me ... I pledge to only buy oil/gas from countries that
up hold Liberal Democratic Principles ... these include free and
unfettered elections ... equality for all of their citizens,
regardless of their religion, sex, national, or sexual orientation.
OK lets see ...
Saudi Arabia, (Houston, we have a problem), you would probably get
your head cut off for even mentioning sex much less orientation. A
woman there cant drive, show her face, or travel with out a male
relative. Wonder what they would say if somebody wanted to have a
Bar-mitzvah in Mecca. Spit on the Saudi flag (green with large white
Arabic script (that may be translated as There is no God but God;
Muhammad is the Messenger of God) And see if you can out run 24
million upset muslims.
>
> I do see your point Wiley, and I understand it, It's coming from the
> typical arrogant american *Love it or leave it* mindset that says "
> How dare you criticize us when you are not really true americans".
> In this case, I must say that your problem here is with the United
> States Constitution which guarantees all rights to all americans,
> regardless of their national origins, except one, and that is the
> office of the president which requires one to be american by birth.
> You also have a problem with the word *freedom* which in you mind does
> not include rights such as burning or spitting on the flag as an act
> of protest against the actions of the government.
Spitting on the flag is not an act of protest but of contempt. The
flag represents the United States, not the government or elected
parties.
Americans are funny about our flag, we go through hell and high water
to put it on the moon, men risked their lives raising the flag at Iwo
Jima. If you had been killed while in the military, they would have
draped the flag on your coffin and given the damn thing to your
mother.
My personal view is that anybody that spits on the flag is not fit to
be a citizen, native born or not.
> All these are
> cherished american rights, and we must fight to keep them, because
> without them, we will be just another totalitarian nation.
There is a lot more to this country than rights, at first we had more
individual rights than social, a hundred years from now, who knows ?
It may not be worth defending, like the early Roman Republic,
everybody so worried about their rights and whats owed to them, that
they dont notice or care about the rot that is eating away at our
foundations
>
> Jules
H.V
> me about black-owned supermarkets or any major businesses there. He hasn't
> replied up to now. I will ask you the same thing if you live in a
> heavily-black populated neighbourhood. Where do you get your groceries? Dine
> out? Get dry-cleaning? Order pizza? Get convenience-store items? Get junk
> food? Buy clothes?
>
I don't live in a black neighbourhood.
My taxes are done by a haitian accountant. My dad and I do the dry
cleaning at a local haitian cleaner, although it's not a service i use
much. There is a local haitian store where we sometimes buy haitian
food (but not so much general groceries because she doesn't sell that
kind of stuff) . The woman who owns that food store also owns a
laundromat right next to it . That may not seem like a lot, but that's
all for now :)I forgot about dining out : I don't dine out much right
now because my student budget can ill afford it, but i am ,
ironically, quite addicted to *lebanese* fast food ! :)
> Blacks will not be taken seriously by others until and unless we get into
> business in a MAJOR way. The Chinese have no problems identifying Chinese
> businesses in answer to the questions above.
It's something to think about. As i grow more financial muscle i hope
to do my part in patronizing the community's businesses.
> Haiti is really no different than Brooklyn.
> >
> > Idi Amin and the ugandans didn't solve anything , you're right.
> > Idi probably did it for his own personal reasons, without any plan of
> > action
> > I've read that the indians are back in Uganda and are back at the helm
> > of every industry .
> > I guess ugandans didn't learn anything in the meantime ...
> > I must admit that i have conflicting feelings about all this.
> > On one hand i deeply resent the attitude of those merchant minorities,
> > whom i feel should refrain from having contempt for the people who
> > play a part in their commercial success.
>
>
> It's not a case of individual people but a recognition that the culture is
> different and that they prefer their own culture.
>
It's different from the attitude of, say, orthodox jews who, prefering
their own culture by far, simply retreat from society. They don't milk
others as much as they can and then badmouth them, they simply keep to
themselves.
It's just very annoying when you have some guy like this
<a href=
"http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=38A8F50D.7001%40again.com">
ali from liberia
</a>
who brags about how his family got rich off the n*ggers gorilas from
liberia . I'm sure he's just one of the more vocal who harbor this
sentiment. This is much more than prefering one's culture and blacks
have legitimate reasons to hate such individuals.
>
> On the other hand i resent
> > the blacks for putting themselves in that situation in the first
> > place. Why can't a segment of the ugandan or haitian population do it
> > right so that one doesn't need to deal with contemptuous foreigners ?
> > Why couldnt *some* ugandans do something during those 30 years that
> > the indians were out ? it maddens me...
> > It's the haitians country, why can't THEY be the richest people . Why
> > can't those haitians who are involved in commerce do it better ? I
> > wish i knew the answer ...
>
>
> Now if you read Tom Sowell's books you will begin to understand. But as he
> is regarded as an "Uncle Tom" by most Blacks he is not taken seriously.
> >
I've read some Sowell actually. I find his books interesting (his
opinion columns are ridiculous though, one wonders if it's the same
person who writes them).
> > Basically, I want the black majorities to do the smart thing, with
> > regards to commerce : take it over, keep control of it and make the
> > contemptuous foreigners **unnecessary** (by running commerce extremely
> > well of course!).
>
> Of course. Everybody else does it.
>
> > The lebanese are doing their own thing, for their own exclusive
> > benefit. Good for them, but the black people don't have to put up with
> > contempt and they shouldn't .
>
> I once described to Kafou (in French) some very protective parents (elite)
> who zoomed in on me while I was chatting with a Lebanese-Jamaican girl at a
> cocktail party many years ago. The daughter was obviously getting too
> interested and laughing too much at what I was saying. Was that contempt?
> No. They were just protecting their culture. No big deal.
>
In a way it's a good thing that you didn't care...But what would you
feel towards these people (the parents) if you had to deal with them
in another situation, say at another coktail party. Would you feel at
ease chatting it up with the dad ? I wouldnt feel *devastated* at them
"protecting" their daughters from me . But i probably would avoid
further contact and would view those people, not as ennemies, but as
"non friends" at least.
> >
> > sulf
>