ISLAM'S CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY, REVISED
Archi-tammuz
"JMB" <j...@utvinternet.ie> wrote in message
news:3bc9...@ni-news.utvinternet.com...
>
> "Archi-tammuz" <agamemnon*SPAM@TRAP*hello.to> wrote in message
> news:9qa69a$igr$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com...
> >
> > > >
> > > > DON'T MAKE ME LAUGH.
> > > >
> > > > The work's of Aristotle were preserved perfectly well by the
> Byzantines
> > in
> > > > the ORIGINAL GREEK until the Turkish BARBARIANS took Constantinople
> and
> > > > burned down all the libraries. They came to the west via Byzantine
> > > refugees
> > > > and Christian Monks who rescued them.
> > > >
> > >
> > > If you actually did some research into the topic you would realise
that
> it
> > > is a well known fact that western Crusaders (Frankish Christians I
> > believe)
> > > sacked and looted Byzantium in 1204. Also, while it may have
originated
> > as
> >
> > Your accusation was that the Byzantines did not preserve the works of
the
> > ancients Greek. I showed you that this was not so. You attempted to
equate
> > the Barbarism of the Papist Crusaders with Byzantium. Now you contradict
> > yourself, by pointing out that these Barbarians sack Constantinople as
> well.
> > Even after this Papists sacked Constantinople the Byzantines were still
> able
> > to recover 90% of the original archive. This was not the case after the
> > Muslim Barbarians Savaged Constantinople. NOTHING was left after that.
> >
>
> I made no such accusations, my first post, as well as this one, was simply
> to correct factual errors of history on your part. After the Crusaders
> sacked Constantinople, the Venetians took over. The Byzantine empire was
> greatly weakened. Even after the Byzantines re-established power in 1261,
> the Venetians and Genoese still had a lot more influence than
Contantinople.
> By the fifteenth century, the city was a shadow of its former self, no
> evidence that they were able to recover 90% of the original archive. In
the
> interim, survival, not library collections, was the main concern.
COMPLETE BULLSHIT.
>
> > > a Greek colony, the city that was the capital of the Byzantine Empire
> was
> > a
> > > Roman creation, modelled on Rome, and named Constantinople. It just
> > > happened to incorporate the area of the Greek colony.
> >
> > Rome itself was moddled on Athens. Byzantium was the continuation of
Greek
> > civilisation and the Greek language and culture while Western Europe
> > descended into Papist Barbarism untill the Byzantine Greek refugees fled
> the
> > Turkish SAVAGERY and started off the renaissance.
> >
>
> Constantinople was built on seven hills, and divided into 14 districts.
> Rome was built on seven hills, and divided into 14 districts.
> Constantinople was modelled on Rome. Athens was not built on seven hills,
> nor to my knowledge was it divided into 14 districts, so how could Rome
have
Oh give me a break. Byzantium was conquered by Philip of Macedon, life time
Archon of Athens, in 350 BC. It was a wholly GREEK city ever since.
> been modelled on Athens? The cities were nothing alike. As for the
> renaissance, a different era in history. Florence is generally considered
> as "the cradle" of the renaissance. Byzantine immigrants are not credited
> with the renaissance. Even if they were, they were the remnants of the
> Roman Empire, not the Athenian Empire.
They were GREEKS YOU IGNORANT CRETIN, GREEKS.
Byzantine art, music, literature, sciences, and mathematics kicked off the
renascence in western Europe. Even after the Papists sacked Constantinople
they could not destroy its culture. It was just a raid. The libraries and
universities were rebuilt and were fully functioning until the Turkish
Barbarians completely destroyed them, massacred the population and brought
400 years of darkness to the region.
>
> > >
> > > > The Arabs who came to Spain fled Islamic Persecution because they
were
> > > > pagans.
> > >
> > >
> > > If the Moors were pagans, why did they build so many Mosques?
> >
> > The designs of the buildings are adapted Byzantine Church designs which
> > themselves were based on the standard design of the prostitution temples
> of
> > Ishtar/Astarte and Tammuz.
> >
>
> On the contrary, I'll think if you do some research you'll find that the
> Moorish architecture was very distinctive, and considered amoung the best
> examples of all time.
The Dome was an invention of the GREEKS and no one else. The Mycenaean's
were building domes in 1300BC and the Proto-Ionians long before that in
2200. It was the central feature of all Christian churches. What was it
doing in Mosques. The ground planns of every mosque was base on the temples
if Ishtar and the domes were copied from of Christian Churches designed by
the Greeks. Even the biggest Mosque in Constantinople was built by a
Christian architect who was enslaved by the Turks and was a copy of Agia
Sofia.
>
> The term "Moor" was specifically applied to Muslims to distingish them
from
> pagans in Africa.
The term Muslim literally means "one who submits", i.e. "SLAVE" or "VASSAL".
The were the enslaved people of western Africa.
>
> > To the Arabs Islam was considered as nothing more than a form of
> Nationalism
> > aimed at territorial expansion and enslavement. The Arabs knew full well
> > that Mohammed was no prophet but a Tyrant. The Turks turned Islam
meaning
> > "surrender" into a religion and used it to justify their SAVAGE
BARBARISM
> > and SYSTEMATIC GENOCIDES.
> >
>
> Islam means "submission", as in to god. Savage barbarism and systematic
It means submission unto Mohammed's tyranny.
> genocides are the preserve of humans pure and simple. Religion has
nothing
> to do with it. Humans will blame their atrocities on anything else rather
You have not read the Koran. Until you have done so you will never
understand that Islam has NEVER been and will NEVER be a peaceful religion.
The Koran incites Muslims, SLAVES to commit murder and genocide of their own
families.
> than accept the blame themselves. Christianity has been used as an excuse
> for much more and worse atrocities throughout history. Why more? Well
it's
> an older religion so humans have had more time to use it as an excuse.
CRAP.
The Christians NEVER kidnapped children from their parents and brainwashed
them into fanatic who the sent back to slaughter their own families. This
SAVAGE brainwashing that was practiced by the Turks required only the Koran.
They forced their VICTIMS to read it form the age of 3 and nothing else.
There is NO way that anyone reading the bible even the Old Testament could
possible be brainwashed in such a way because the Korans is the distilled
essence of EVIL, HATE and SAVAGERY of the Jewish religion. There are NO
checks in the Koran to denote it as history. Anyone reading the Koran as a
child will and does believe that it is written in the present and that the
are fighting an on-going war.
The essence of the Koran which permits this SAVAGE BARBARISM and allowed the
Turks to create their Janissaries with little effort is this:
1) Mohammed and god are made to be the SAME person
a) by the use of the word "WE" for gods word
b) by Mohammed placing his own words in the mouths of biblical
patriarchs and distorting the meaning of the bible so that it become a
liturgy of rejected prophets who brought retribution on the people for
rejecting them. Mohammed did this because the Arabs rejected him as a
charlatan and a liar.
c) by Mohammed placing his own words in the mouth of god. Thus he was
able to give himself preferential treatment over all of his followers. He
gave himself special rights and did not have to follow the same laws as
other Muslims. There were two class's of Muslims, Mohammed and everyone
else. Mohammed could lie, rape, slaughter and steal to his hearts content.
2) The Koran encouraged:
a) Piracy/Terrorism - Mohammed was a Bandit who attacked trade caravans
with the blessing of Allah.
b) Hostage taking - The merchants were supposed to be taken hostage so
that they could be ransomed to their families for profit.
c) Slavery - Those who could not be ransomed were to be sold as slaves.
Mohammed kept many slaves himself.
d) Rape - The women were all forced into submisssion and then raped.
e) Murder - Those who assassinated Mohammed's political enemies were
blessed.
f) Hate - Muslims were discouraged from taking Jews and Christians as
friends
g) Biggotry - All the followers of other regions were tarred with the
same brush, implicitly as followers of Satan.
h) Aggression - Every Muslim was told that god created him to fight and
those that did not follow this directive were ridiculed by comparing them
with women and cowards. They were all made out to be perpetual victims, a
lesson learned from Judaism.
i) Use of Force - Mohammed ripped up all the treaties he signed as soon
as he grew strong, and never kept his word. Conversion to Islam was
compelled on pain of death. Either "Submit" or be decapitated.
j) Theft - Each Muslim could keep 4/5 of everything he pillaged or stole
form the people he murdered. The rest went to Mohammed as Zakat, Taxation,
Blood Money.
k) Child Abduction - Muslims were encouraged to adopt the children of
the people they murdered or sold into slavery and turn them into Muslims.
After all Mohammed needed to expand his army. The Turks took this one step
further and demanded as CHILD TAX on all Christians, FORCING them to give
their children to the Turks to become Muslims.
3) The Koran discouraged:
a) Art - All depiction of the human form was forbidden.
b) Freedom of Expression - Mohammed murdered at least one Arab poet and
one poetess. They above were murdered because of what they wrote. Other
people were murdered form criticising Mohammed.
c) Freedom of Thought - The Koran did all your thinking for you.
Anything that contradicted it was forbidden. The Muslims burned down the
Library of Alexandria stating this for a reason.
d) Democracy - Islam was submission to Mohammed and thus democracy was
an anathema. Since the Koran could not be amended there was no way of
constructing any form of working constitution.
e) Legality - Mohammed made it up as he went along. He lied, deceived,
betrayed his allies and forgave himself of his crimes but not those of
others. It was a system of Might is Right.
4) The Koran favoured Discrimination
a) Christians and Jews and Pagans were made out to be inferiors.
i) The Jews were painted as swindlers
ii) The Christians were painted as idolaters
iii) The Pagans were painted as Satans
b) Christians and Jews had to allow Muslims to practice freely in their
own cities but when the Muslims conquered these cities the Christians and
Jews were forced to submit (literally the meaning of "Islam") or die.
c) The Muslims were told not to follow the laws or constitutions of the
cities they inhabited
i) They were not to recognise the judicial and legal system but obey
only the Koran.
ii) They had to demand more than just equality but preferential
treatment
iii) They could steal, rape, murder and commit atrocity upon
atrocity to the indigenous inhabitants because they were not Muslims. The
Turks took this as far as it would go in Cyprus when they formed Terrorist
organisations that bombed all mixed villages so that either the Christians
fled and the village would become completely Muslims or the Muslims left to
form enclaves in villages that had already been ethnical cleansed of
Christians. Cyprus was forced to adopt a constitution that treated the
Christian Majority as second class citizens giving the Muslim minority the
right to veto all of its laws. When the Turks invaded in 1974 they
perpetrated MASS GENOCIDE.
JMB
Wow, you've presented so many facts supporting your conclusion, it's going
to be hard to go through them all.
> >
> > > > a Greek colony, the city that was the capital of the Byzantine
Empire
> > was
> > > a
> > > > Roman creation, modelled on Rome, and named Constantinople. It just
> > > > happened to incorporate the area of the Greek colony.
> > >
> > > Rome itself was moddled on Athens. Byzantium was the continuation of
> Greek
> > > civilisation and the Greek language and culture while Western Europe
> > > descended into Papist Barbarism untill the Byzantine Greek refugees
fled
> > the
> > > Turkish SAVAGERY and started off the renaissance.
> > >
> >
> > Constantinople was built on seven hills, and divided into 14 districts.
> > Rome was built on seven hills, and divided into 14 districts.
> > Constantinople was modelled on Rome. Athens was not built on seven
hills,
> > nor to my knowledge was it divided into 14 districts, so how could Rome
> have
>
> Oh give me a break. Byzantium was conquered by Philip of Macedon, life
time
> Archon of Athens, in 350 BC. It was a wholly GREEK city ever since.
>
Did a little thing called the Roman Empire slip by you there, or did you
just miss that class in school?
> > been modelled on Athens? The cities were nothing alike. As for the
> > renaissance, a different era in history. Florence is generally
considered
> > as "the cradle" of the renaissance. Byzantine immigrants are not
credited
> > with the renaissance. Even if they were, they were the remnants of the
> > Roman Empire, not the Athenian Empire.
>
> They were GREEKS YOU IGNORANT CRETIN, GREEKS.
>
They were the Eastern Roman Empire.
Ask any architect, they will tell you that a dome alone does not make an
architectural style.
> >
> > The term "Moor" was specifically applied to Muslims to distingish them
> from
> > pagans in Africa.
>
> The term Muslim literally means "one who submits", i.e. "SLAVE" or
"VASSAL".
> The were the enslaved people of western Africa.
>
The idea is that they submit themselves to god, not that they were slaves to
other people.
> >
> > > To the Arabs Islam was considered as nothing more than a form of
> > Nationalism
> > > aimed at territorial expansion and enslavement. The Arabs knew full
well
> > > that Mohammed was no prophet but a Tyrant. The Turks turned Islam
> meaning
> > > "surrender" into a religion and used it to justify their SAVAGE
> BARBARISM
> > > and SYSTEMATIC GENOCIDES.
> > >
> >
> > Islam means "submission", as in to god. Savage barbarism and systematic
>
> It means submission unto Mohammed's tyranny.
>
No, Mohammed was just a prophet, it means submission to god.
> > genocides are the preserve of humans pure and simple. Religion has
> nothing
> > to do with it. Humans will blame their atrocities on anything else
rather
>
> You have not read the Koran. Until you have done so you will never
> understand that Islam has NEVER been and will NEVER be a peaceful
religion.
> The Koran incites Muslims, SLAVES to commit murder and genocide of their
own
> families.
>
I've read enough of it to know that it doesn't incite anything. Some
phsycotic fools can interperet it to mean the things you say, but the same
can be done to any religious book, the christian bible being the prime other
example.
> > than accept the blame themselves. Christianity has been used as an
excuse
> > for much more and worse atrocities throughout history. Why more? Well
> it's
> > an older religion so humans have had more time to use it as an excuse.
>
> CRAP.
>
> The Christians NEVER kidnapped children from their parents and brainwashed
> them into fanatic who the sent back to slaughter their own families. This
> SAVAGE brainwashing that was practiced by the Turks required only the
Koran.
> They forced their VICTIMS to read it form the age of 3 and nothing else.
> There is NO way that anyone reading the bible even the Old Testament could
> possible be brainwashed in such a way because the Korans is the distilled
> essence of EVIL, HATE and SAVAGERY of the Jewish religion.
Actually, it recognises both the jewish and christian religions as being the
only two other religions worshipping the correct god, it just considers them
a little out of date.
> There are NO
> checks in the Koran to denote it as history. Anyone reading the Koran as a
> child will and does believe that it is written in the present and that the
> are fighting an on-going war.
>
Ah, I see now, you have no desire to dicuss history accurately, you're just
a bigot. Well that saves me from having to participate in this thread any
more.
WolfWolf
>
> "Archi-tammuz" <agamemnon*SPAM@TRAP*hello.to> wrote in message
> news:9qdh73$24q$1...@neptunium.btinternet.com...
> > Oh give me a break. Byzantium was conquered by Philip of Macedon, life
> time
> > Archon of Athens, in 350 BC. It was a wholly GREEK city ever since.
> >
>
> Did a little thing called the Roman Empire slip by you there, or did you
> just miss that class in school?
Next time he will tell us that America was discovered by Greek and that New
York was founded by Petros Fragma-ammon (Peter Stuyvesant).
> > Byzantine art, music, literature, sciences, and mathematics kicked off
the
> > renascence in western Europe. Even after the Papists sacked
Constantinople
> > they could not destroy its culture. It was just a raid. The libraries
and
> > universities were rebuilt and were fully functioning until the Turkish
> > Barbarians completely destroyed them, massacred the population and
brought
> > 400 years of darkness to the region.
Dark like the coffee that was brought by the Ottomans to Greece - and still
remains there.
> > The Dome was an invention of the GREEKS and no one else. The Mycenaean's
> > were building domes in 1300BC and the Proto-Ionians long before that in
> > 2200. It was the central feature of all Christian churches. What was it
> > doing in Mosques. The ground planns of every mosque was base on the
> temples
> > if Ishtar and the domes were copied from of Christian Churches designed
by
> > the Greeks. Even the biggest Mosque in Constantinople was built by a
> > Christian architect who was enslaved by the Turks and was a copy of Agia
> > Sofia.
> >
>
> Ask any architect, they will tell you that a dome alone does not make an
> architectural style.
Architects say: form follows function.
> > Cyprus was forced to adopt a constitution that treated the
> > Christian Majority as second class citizens giving the Muslim minority
the
> > right to veto all of its laws. When the Turks invaded in 1974 they
> > perpetrated MASS GENOCIDE.
Who said that?!?
WolfWolf
Archi-tammuz
"WolfWolf" <10162...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:9qtqhb$22m$1...@suaar1aa.prod.compuserve.com...
> "JMB" <j...@utvinternet.ie> wrote in message
> news:3bca...@ni-news.utvinternet.com...
> >
> > "Archi-tammuz" <agamemnon*SPAM@TRAP*hello.to> wrote in message
> > news:9qdh73$24q$1...@neptunium.btinternet.com...
>
>
> > > Oh give me a break. Byzantium was conquered by Philip of Macedon, life
> > time
> > > Archon of Athens, in 350 BC. It was a wholly GREEK city ever since.
> > >
> >
> > Did a little thing called the Roman Empire slip by you there, or did you
> > just miss that class in school?
>
> Next time he will tell us that America was discovered by Greek and that
New
> York was founded by Petros Fragma-ammon (Peter Stuyvesant).
Christopher Columbus family were Byzantine Greek refugees who fled to
southern Italy which was then ethnically Greek, bring existing Greek maps of
the Americas with them.
>
> > > Byzantine art, music, literature, sciences, and mathematics kicked off
> the
> > > renascence in western Europe. Even after the Papists sacked
> Constantinople
> > > they could not destroy its culture. It was just a raid. The libraries
> and
> > > universities were rebuilt and were fully functioning until the Turkish
> > > Barbarians completely destroyed them, massacred the population and
> brought
> > > 400 years of darkness to the region.
>
> Dark like the coffee that was brought by the Ottomans to Greece - and
still
> remains there.
Dont make me laugh. The Greeks were already drinking Greek Coffe in
Byzantine times. The Ottomans brought nothing to Greece but DESTRUCTION. The
SAVAGELY RAPED, MURDERED and KIDNAPPED their victims without relent.
>
> > > The Dome was an invention of the GREEKS and no one else. The
Mycenaean's
> > > were building domes in 1300BC and the Proto-Ionians long before that
in
> > > 2200. It was the central feature of all Christian churches. What was
it
> > > doing in Mosques. The ground planns of every mosque was base on the
> > temples
> > > if Ishtar and the domes were copied from of Christian Churches
designed
> by
> > > the Greeks. Even the biggest Mosque in Constantinople was built by a
> > > Christian architect who was enslaved by the Turks and was a copy of
Agia
> > > Sofia.
> > >
> >
> > Ask any architect, they will tell you that a dome alone does not make an
> > architectural style.
>
> Architects say: form follows function.
>
> > > Cyprus was forced to adopt a constitution that treated the
> > > Christian Majority as second class citizens giving the Muslim minority
> the
> > > right to veto all of its laws. When the Turks invaded in 1974 they
> > > perpetrated MASS GENOCIDE.
>
> Who said that?!?
The European Court of Humans Rights.
>
> WolfWolf
>
>
WolfWolf
> > > > Oh give me a break. Byzantium was conquered by Philip of Macedon,
life
> > > time
> > > > Archon of Athens, in 350 BC. It was a wholly GREEK city ever since.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Did a little thing called the Roman Empire slip by you there, or did
you
> > > just miss that class in school?
> >
> > Next time he will tell us that America was discovered by Greek and that
> New
> > York was founded by Petros Fragma-ammon (Peter Stuyvesant).
>
> Christopher Columbus family were Byzantine Greek refugees who fled to
> southern Italy which was then ethnically Greek, bring existing Greek maps
of
> the Americas with them.
Oh yes, "existing Greek maps of the Americas".
Columbus (Italian: Cristoforo Colombo, Spanish: Cristobal Colón, Portuguese:
Cristóvão Colom - no Greek name used by him) was born in Genoa - Northern
Italy. He declared himself of "Western Mediterranean" origin, and gave some
contradictory information about his past - telling that his mother was
Irish.
Such "Greek maps of the Americas" did not exist.
America's first cartographer was the Italian Americo Vespucci (about 50
years after Columbus' death).
Columbus himself offered his services first - unsuccessfully - to the King
of Portugal and later to the King and Queen of Spain. He never knew about
America - he knew that the world was round and intended to navigate to China
and India - therefore the first people he met were "Indians".
If you want to know more details, go to the "Archivo de Indias" in Seville -
but don't expect to find traces for your Greek theory.
Today we know that Columbus was not the first to cross the Atlantic by ship.
The Vikings did it before - in the 11 or 12 century - but did not establish
permanent settlements. They did not use Greek maps either.
Hellenic history has many discoverers - but not every discoverer was Greek.
> > Dark like the coffee that was brought by the Ottomans to Greece - and
> still
> > remains there.
>
> Dont make me laugh. The Greeks were already drinking Greek Coffe in
> Byzantine times. The Ottomans brought nothing to Greece but DESTRUCTION.
The
> SAVAGELY RAPED, MURDERED and KIDNAPPED their victims without relent.
Oh yes, and Julius Cesar was smoking cigarettes, eating potatoes and cutting
sugar cane.
> > > > Cyprus was forced to adopt a constitution that treated the
> > > > Christian Majority as second class citizens giving the Muslim
minority
> > the
> > > > right to veto all of its laws. When the Turks invaded in 1974 they
> > > > perpetrated MASS GENOCIDE.
> >
> > Who said that?!?
>
> The European Court of Humans Rights.
Definitely wrong. No document of the ECHR related to Turkey carries the word
"genocide".
For posting in soc.history.ancient NG you staill have some cultural gaps to
fill up.
WolfWolf
gogu
YOU ARE A FUCKING TROLL!
JMB
>
> "WolfWolf" <10162...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> news:9qtqhb$22m$1...@suaar1aa.prod.compuserve.com...
> > "JMB" <j...@utvinternet.ie> wrote in message
> > news:3bca...@ni-news.utvinternet.com...
> > >
> > > "Archi-tammuz" <agamemnon*SPAM@TRAP*hello.to> wrote in message
> > > news:9qdh73$24q$1...@neptunium.btinternet.com...
> >
> >
> > > > Oh give me a break. Byzantium was conquered by Philip of Macedon,
life
> > > time
> > > > Archon of Athens, in 350 BC. It was a wholly GREEK city ever since.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Did a little thing called the Roman Empire slip by you there, or did
you
> > > just miss that class in school?
> >
> > Next time he will tell us that America was discovered by Greek and that
> New
> > York was founded by Petros Fragma-ammon (Peter Stuyvesant).
>
> Christopher Columbus family were Byzantine Greek refugees who fled to
> southern Italy which was then ethnically Greek, bring existing Greek maps
of
> the Americas with them.
>
And what maps would they be? Any references at all?
Actually, while this is totally off the subject of ancient history, it
should be noted that the ECHR never said that.
This link shows what the ECHR actually found Turkey guilty off:
http://www.argyros.argyrou.btinternet.co.uk/Guilty.htm#a
And ''this is the first time Turkey is held accountable in the international
scene for human rights violations in Cyprus' Turkish-occupied areas''
according to the article. It falls a little short of Archi-tammuz' claims.
The issue of genocide is not memtioned by the court, nor is it likely to
ever be in the current political situation. If Archi-tammuz wishes to
discuss modern political problems, so be it, but remove soc.history.ancient
from the newsgroups you are posting to, as if it happened after about
400A.D. it is too modern for ancient history.
> >
> > WolfWolf
> >
> >
>
Archi-tammuz
> > > > > Cyprus was forced to adopt a constitution that treated the
> > > > > Christian Majority as second class citizens giving the Muslim
> minority
> > > the
> > > > > right to veto all of its laws. When the Turks invaded in 1974 they
> > > > > perpetrated MASS GENOCIDE.
> > >
> > > Who said that?!?
> >
> > The European Court of Humans Rights.
> >
>
> Actually, while this is totally off the subject of ancient history, it
> should be noted that the ECHR never said that.
>
> This link shows what the ECHR actually found Turkey guilty off:
>
> http://www.argyros.argyrou.btinternet.co.uk/Guilty.htm#a
That link is a reference earlier an earlier case.
It youre going to post links from my web sites then you might try posting
the right ones.
http://www.geocities.com/discover_turkey/Guilty2.htm#a
> And ''this is the first time Turkey is held accountable in the
international
> scene for human rights violations in Cyprus' Turkish-occupied areas''
> according to the article. It falls a little short of Archi-tammuz'
claims.
> The issue of genocide is not memtioned by the court, nor is it likely to
> ever be in the current political situation. If Archi-tammuz wishes to
> discuss modern political problems, so be it, but remove
soc.history.ancient
> from the newsgroups you are posting to, as if it happened after about
> 400A.D. it is too modern for ancient history.
341
10.5.2001
Press release issued by the Registrar
JUDGMENT IN THE CASE OF CYPRUS v. TURKEY
In a Grand Chamber judgment delivered at Strasbourg on 10 May 2001 in the
case of Cyprus v. Turkey (application no. 25781/94), the European Court of
Human Rights held, by sixteen votes to one, that the matters complained of
by Cyprus in its application entailed Turkey’s responsibility under the
European Convention on Human Rights.
The Court held that there had been the following 14 violations of the
Convention (see Decision of the Court for details):
Greek-Cypriot missing persons and their relatives
a continuing violation of Article 2 (right to life) of the Convention
concerning the failure of the authorities of the respondent State to conduct
an effective investigation into the whereabouts and fate of Greek-Cypriot
missing persons who disappeared in life-threatening circumstances;
a continuing violation of Article 5 (right to liberty and security)
concerning the failure of the Turkish authorities to conduct an effective
investigation into the whereabouts and fate of the Greek-Cypriot missing
persons in respect of whom there was an arguable claim that they were in
Turkish custody at the time of their disappearance;
a continuing violation of Article 3 (prohibition of inhuman or degrading
treatment) in that the silence of the Turkish authorities in the face of the
real concerns of the relatives attained a level of severity which could only
be categorised as inhuman treatment.
Home and property of displaced persons
a continuing violation of Article 8 (right to respect for private and family
life, home and correspondence) concerning the refusal to allow the return of
any Greek-Cypriot displaced persons to their homes in northern Cyprus;
a continuing violation of Article 1 of Protocol No. 1 (protection of
property) concerning the fact that Greek-Cypriot owners of property in
northern Cyprus were being denied access to and control, use and enjoyment
of their property as well as any compensation for the interference with
their property rights;
a violation of Article 13 (right to an effective remedy) concerning the
failure to provide to Greek Cypriots not residing in northern Cyprus any
remedies to contest interferences with their rights under Article 8 and
Article 1 of Protocol No. 1.
Living conditions of Greek Cypriots in Karpas region of northern Cyprus
a violation of Article 9 (freedom of thought, conscience and religion) in
respect of Greek Cypriots living in northern Cyprus, concerning the effects
of restrictions on freedom of movement which limited access to places of
worship and participation in other aspects of religious life;
a violation of Article 10 (freedom of expression) in respect of Greek
Cypriots living in northern Cyprus in so far as school-books destined for
use in their primary school were subject to excessive measures of
censorship;
a continuing violation of Article 1 of Protocol No. 1 in respect of Greek
Cypriots living in northern Cyprus in that their right to the peaceful
enjoyment of their possessions was not secured in case of their permanent
departure from that territory and in that, in case of death, inheritance
rights of relatives living in southern Cyprus were not recognised;
a violation of Article 2 of Protocol No. 1 (right to education) in respect
of Greek Cypriots living in northern Cyprus in so far as no appropriate
secondary-school facilities were available to them;
a violation of Article 3 in that the Greek Cypriots living in the Karpas
area of northern Cyprus had been subjected to discrimination amounting to
degrading treatment;
a violation of Article 8 concerning the right of Greek Cypriots living in
northern Cyprus to respect for their private and family life and to respect
for their home;
a violation of Article 13 by reason of the absence, as a matter of practice,
of remedies in respect of interferences by the authorities with the rights
of Greek Cypriots living in northern Cyprus under Articles 3, 8, 9 and 10 of
the Convention and Articles 1 and 2 of Protocol No. 1.
Rights of Turkish Cypriots living in northern Cyprus
a violation of Article 6 (right to a fair trial) on account of the
legislative practice of authorising the trial of civilians by military
courts.
http://www.geocities.com/discover_turkey/Eurohrc3.htm
The term "Genocide" is defined by International Conventions which I have
already shown you. The ECHR judgments against Turkey fully satisfy those
definitions. Turkey has been found guilty of GENOCIDE.
"Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
Approved and proposed for signature and ratification or accession by
General Assembly resolution 260 A (III) of 9 December 1948
entry into force 12 January 1951, in accordance with article XIII
status of ratifications, reservations and declarations
The Contracting Parties,
Having considered the declaration made by the General Assembly of the United
Nations in its resolution 96 (I) dated 11 December 1946 that genocide is a
crime under international law, contrary to the spirit and aims of the United
Nations and condemned by the civilized world,
Recognizing that at all periods of history genocide has inflicted great
losses on humanity, and
Being convinced that, in order to liberate mankind from such an odious
scourge, international co-operation is required,
Hereby agree as hereinafter provided:
Article 1
The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of
peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they
undertake to prevent and to punish.
Article 2
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts
committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical,
racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to
bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Article 3
The following acts shall be punishable:
(a) Genocide;
(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
(d ) Attempt to commit genocide;
(e) Complicity in genocide.
Article 4
Persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in article
III shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers,
public officials or private individuals.
===========
Turkey has been found GUILTY of Article 2 (a), (b), (c), (d), (e) of the
convention by the ECHR and is therefore GUILTY of MASS GENOCIDE.
http://www.geocities.com/discover_turkey/TurkishHospitality.htm
>
>
> > >
> > > WolfWolf
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
Archi-tammuz
> "Archi-tammuz" <agamemnon*SPAM@TRAP*hello.to> wrote in message
> news:9qu1hi$epj$1...@uranium.btinternet.com...
>
> > > > > Oh give me a break. Byzantium was conquered by Philip of Macedon,
> life
> > > > time
> > > > > Archon of Athens, in 350 BC. It was a wholly GREEK city ever
since.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Did a little thing called the Roman Empire slip by you there, or did
> you
> > > > just miss that class in school?
> > >
> > > Next time he will tell us that America was discovered by Greek and
that
> > New
> > > York was founded by Petros Fragma-ammon (Peter Stuyvesant).
> >
> > Christopher Columbus family were Byzantine Greek refugees who fled to
> > southern Italy which was then ethnically Greek, bring existing Greek
maps
> of
> > the Americas with them.
>
> Oh yes, "existing Greek maps of the Americas".
Portuguese:
Columbus signed his name Xhrisoforos which is the GREEK spelling of
Christopher which is Greek for "Christ Bringer". His last name was also
Greek, Xarolambos meaning "Bright and Shining"
> Cristσvγo Colom - no Greek name used by him) was born in Genoa - Northern
Wrong. This was propaganda for Spanish consumption since he had to prove
allegiance to the Pope. He was in reality a Greek refugee from Chios.
Evidence shows that he made trips to Greece to search for old Byzantine
maps. One of these maps showed up in 1953, a 1503 map of a Turkish Admiral
that had the thought it was copied from earlier Greek maps.
> Italy. He declared himself of "Western Mediterranean" origin, and gave
some
> contradictory information about his past - telling that his mother was
> Irish.
Ireland from between 100 and 1200 AD was under the dominion of the Greek
Orthodox Church.
> Such "Greek maps of the Americas" did not exist.
How do you know that. Christopher Columbus kept TWO logs of his voyage. A
fake log and the real log. He did this because he knew the journey was going
to be longer than he claimed it was and that he needed to sail further south
than he claimed. The only way he could have known this is if he was
following a map.
> America's first cartographer was the Italian Americo Vespucci (about 50
> years after Columbus' death).
> Columbus himself offered his services first - unsuccessfully - to the King
> of Portugal and later to the King and Queen of Spain. He never knew about
> America - he knew that the world was round and intended to navigate to
China
> and India - therefore the first people he met were "Indians".
Indian means nothing more than "Ingidnous person". If he was sailing to
China why didn't he called the people Chinese.
>
> If you want to know more details, go to the "Archivo de Indias" in
Seville -
> but don't expect to find traces for your Greek theory.
>
> Today we know that Columbus was not the first to cross the Atlantic by
ship.
> The Vikings did it before - in the 11 or 12 century - but did not
establish
> permanent settlements. They did not use Greek maps either.
The Greeks and Romans did it a millennia earlier. Columbus used a copy of a
map that was originally made by Ptolemy.
>
> Hellenic history has many discoverers - but not every discoverer was
Greek.
>
> > > Dark like the coffee that was brought by the Ottomans to Greece - and
> > still
> > > remains there.
> >
> > Dont make me laugh. The Greeks were already drinking Greek Coffe in
> > Byzantine times. The Ottomans brought nothing to Greece but DESTRUCTION.
> The
> > SAVAGELY RAPED, MURDERED and KIDNAPPED their victims without relent.
>
> Oh yes, and Julius Cesar was smoking cigarettes, eating potatoes and
cutting
> sugar cane.
>
> > > > > Cyprus was forced to adopt a constitution that treated the
> > > > > Christian Majority as second class citizens giving the Muslim
> minority
> > > the
> > > > > right to veto all of its laws. When the Turks invaded in 1974 they
> > > > > perpetrated MASS GENOCIDE.
> > >
> > > Who said that?!?
> >
> > The European Court of Humans Rights.
>
> Definitely wrong. No document of the ECHR related to Turkey carries the
word
> "genocide".
The term "Genocide" is defined by International Conventions which I have
The Contracting Parties,
Article 1
Article 2
Article 3
(a) Genocide;
(e) Complicity in genocide.
Article 4
===========
http://www.geocities.com/discover_turkey/TurkishHospitality.htm
>
WolfWolf
>
> "JMB" <j...@utvinternet.ie> wrote in message
> news:3bd2...@ni-news.utvinternet.com...
>
> > > > > > Cyprus was forced to adopt a constitution that treated the
> > > > > > Christian Majority as second class citizens giving the Muslim
> > minority
> > > > the
> > > > > > right to veto all of its laws. When the Turks invaded in 1974
they
> > > > > > perpetrated MASS GENOCIDE.
> > > >
> > > > Who said that?!?
> > >
> > > The European Court of Humans Rights.
> > >
> >
> > Actually, while this is totally off the subject of ancient history, it
> > should be noted that the ECHR never said that.
> >
> > This link shows what the ECHR actually found Turkey guilty off:
> >
> > http://www.argyros.argyrou.btinternet.co.uk/Guilty.htm#a
>
> That link is a reference earlier an earlier case.
>
> It youre going to post links from my web sites then you might try posting
> the right ones.
>
> http://www.geocities.com/discover_turkey/Guilty2.htm#a
As JMB said correctly - there is no mention of "genocide" in any ECHR
document linked to Turkey.
As an overview - here are some statistical information of the year 1996:
From the statistics of the European Court of Human Rights concerning
individual applications for the year 1996, the order of the countries with
highest number of applications which were registered by the Commission are:
Italy (729), France (600), Turkey (562), Great Britain (471), Poland (458)
and Germany (334).
By the highest number of individual applications declared admissible, the
order of the countries is as follows: Italy (370), France (75) and Turkey
(37).
The order of the countries with the highest number of cases, which the Court
found at least one violation, is Italy (8), Britain (7), Greece (5), France
(4) and Turkey (4).
A party is only guilty of what is expressed in the final judgement.
No final judgement nor any other ECHR document linked to Turkey carries the
word "genocide".
This is also not the case for the Greek side.
Any other interpretation is not in congruence with the existing
jurisdiction.
Its historical validity would be questionable.
WolfWolf
WolfWolf
>
> "WolfWolf" <10162...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> news:9quhdq$j1o$1...@suaar1aa.prod.compuserve.com...
> > "Archi-tammuz" <agamemnon*SPAM@TRAP*hello.to> wrote in message
> > news:9qu1hi$epj$1...@uranium.btinternet.com...
> >
> > > > > > Oh give me a break. Byzantium was conquered by Philip of
Macedon,
> > life
> > > > > time
> > > > > > Archon of Athens, in 350 BC. It was a wholly GREEK city ever
> since.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Did a little thing called the Roman Empire slip by you there, or
did
> > you
> > > > > just miss that class in school?
> > > >
> > > > Next time he will tell us that America was discovered by Greek and
> that
> > > New
> > > > York was founded by Petros Fragma-ammon (Peter Stuyvesant).
> > >
> > > Christopher Columbus family were Byzantine Greek refugees who fled to
> > > southern Italy which was then ethnically Greek, bring existing Greek
> maps
> > of
> > > the Americas with them.
> >
> > Oh yes, "existing Greek maps of the Americas".
> Portuguese:
>
> Columbus signed his name Xhrisoforos which is the GREEK spelling of
> Christopher which is Greek for "Christ Bringer". His last name was also
> Greek, Xarolambos meaning "Bright and Shining"
Columbus' signature appears as:
Xps FERENS
Xps stands for Christus - FERENS is the present participle of the Latin noun
"ferre", to bear.
Above his signature he used to put the year. The letters themselves - Latin
letters - leave no doubt.
He only learnt writing after marriage in 1479. At that time he was living in
Lisbon.
>
> > Cristóvão Colom - no Greek name used by him) was born in Genoa -
Northern
>
> Wrong. This was propaganda for Spanish consumption since he had to prove
> allegiance to the Pope. He was in reality a Greek refugee from Chios.
The most reliable documents for his birth are:
the "documento Aseretto"
Columbus' will
his biography, written by his son Hernando
All of them agree with Genoa as birthplace, date of birth between 25/8 and
31/10/1451.
Columbos was in Chios in 1474 or 1475, participating in an expedition for
the Italian Liguric Republic. This was the only time in his life he was
eastwards from Italy. In 1479 he made a last visit to Genoa. In Lisbon, and
later in Seville, he learnt to read and to draw maps. Both Portugal and
Spain - competing world powers at that time - had their own cartography.
> Evidence shows that he made trips to Greece to search for old Byzantine
> maps. One of these maps showed up in 1953, a 1503 map of a Turkish
Admiral
> that had the thought it was copied from earlier Greek maps.
If you mean Piris Reis - he received input from Arab navigators, but clearly
not from Greek. Piris Reis had no link with Columbus.
>
> > Italy. He declared himself of "Western Mediterranean" origin, and gave
> some
> > contradictory information about his past - telling that his mother was
> > Irish.
>
> Ireland from between 100 and 1200 AD was under the dominion of the Greek
> Orthodox Church.
>
> > Such "Greek maps of the Americas" did not exist.
>
> How do you know that. Christopher Columbus kept TWO logs of his voyage. A
> fake log and the real log. He did this because he knew the journey was
going
> to be longer than he claimed it was and that he needed to sail further
south
> than he claimed. The only way he could have known this is if he was
> following a map.
No. This story is fake. I told you - you don't believe me. Go to Seville, to
the "Archivo de Indias". You will need more than 6 months for reading only
the most important documents of Columbus.
Nobody knew about the duration of the voyage. During a last stop in Canary
Islands the crew had to do some repair works and expressed there and at some
other moments minor satisfaction.
There was definitely no double log. It would exist in the "Archivo de
Indias" - and it does not.
>
> > America's first cartographer was the Italian Americo Vespucci (about 50
> > years after Columbus' death).
> > Columbus himself offered his services first - unsuccessfully - to the
King
> > of Portugal and later to the King and Queen of Spain. He never knew
about
> > America - he knew that the world was round and intended to navigate to
> China
> > and India - therefore the first people he met were "Indians".
>
> Indian means nothing more than "Ingidnous person". If he was sailing to
> China why didn't he called the people Chinese.
He knew that China was northwards from India. According to the position of
the sun, he thought to be on the geographical altitude of India.
The people he found were called by him in Spanish "Indios" - exactly as the
habitants of India.
This word has no ethymological link with "indigenous" (in Spanish
"indígenos").
>
> >
> > If you want to know more details, go to the "Archivo de Indias" in
> Seville -
> > but don't expect to find traces for your Greek theory.
> >
> > Today we know that Columbus was not the first to cross the Atlantic by
> ship.
> > The Vikings did it before - in the 11 or 12 century - but did not
> establish
> > permanent settlements. They did not use Greek maps either.
The Vikings are the only visitors who left evidence of their presence.
There are some absolutely uncertain theories and speculations about voyages
of Romans, Phoenicians and Egyptians - and of course of Extraterrestrians.
But definitely no of Greeks
>
> The Greeks and Romans did it a millennia earlier. Columbus used a copy of
a
> map that was originally made by Ptolemy.
Please, don't make me laugh. Why should he use Ptolemy's material if he had
a whole division of cartographers at his disposal - with new input from
every Portuguese ship sailing Southwards along the African coast?
Compared with our time, it is a difference like pen and computer.
Again: If you want to be convincing - go first to where the source material
is. Then you can teach others, before not.
I know where the term "genocide" is defined. I know also that for being
applicable it must be expressed as such by court. This is something that you
will also know.
You and me - we both know that no document related to Turkey carries this
term.
Therefore, SAVAGE MASS GENOCIDE did neither exist in the case of Greece nor
in the case of Turkey.
You know it perfectly.
WolfWolf
Archi-tammuz
> "Archi-tammuz" <agamemnon*SPAM@TRAP*hello.to> wrote in message
> news:9qujlm$25e$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com...
> >
> > > > > > > Cyprus was forced to adopt a constitution that treated the
Stop playing games. The cases brought against Turkey were of serious MASS
VIOLATIONS of peoples human rights. Those brought against other countries
are petty in comparison. Everyone who has seen Midnight Express knows the
BARBARITY of the Turks.
> A party is only guilty of what is expressed in the final judgement.
> No final judgement nor any other ECHR document linked to Turkey carries
the
> word "genocide".
> This is also not the case for the Greek side.
The term "Genocide" is defined by International Conventions which I have
The Contracting Parties,
Article 1
Article 2
Article 3
(a) Genocide;
(e) Complicity in genocide.
Article 4
===========
http://www.geocities.com/discover_turkey/TurkishHospitality.htm
>
> Any other interpretation is not in congruence with the existing
> jurisdiction.
> Its historical validity would be questionable.
>
The European Commission of Human Rights, Report I (20 July 1974 - 18 May
1976)
The European Commission of Human Rights, Report II (19 May 1976 - 10 Feb
1983)
"Having found violations of a number of Articles of the Convention, the
Commission notes that the acts violating the Convention were exclusively
directed against members of one of two communities in Cyprus, namely the
Greek Cypriot community. It concludes by eleven votes to three that Turkey
has thus failed to secure the rights and freedoms set forth in these
Articles without discrimination on the grounds of ethnic origin, race,
religion as required by Article 14 of the Convention."
Again SYSTEMATIC MASS GENOCIDE perpetrated by Turkey.
> WolfWolf
>
>
WolfWolf
Sorry, I am not playing games. The matter is too serious.
You know where the term "genocide" is defined. You know also that for being
applicable it must be expressed as such by court.
Now it appears that no ECHR document related to Turkey carries this term.
Therefore, SYSTEMATIC MASS GENOCIDE did neither exist in the case of Greece
JMB
>
> Ireland from between 100 and 1200 AD was under the dominion of the Greek
> Orthodox Church.
>
At last, something to do with ancient history, but the facts are wrong
again. Ireland was never under the dominion of the Greek Orthodox Church.
In about the 4th Century AD Ireland began the conversion to Christianity in
our own unique way. Basically we kept the main pagan rituals and festivals,
and gave them a Christian context. There were several arguments between the
Irish Church and the Roman Church, to whom we were supossedly answerable.
In about the 12th Century AD, the Irish Church started to comform to the
Roman way of doing things. It would have been nice if we had gone the Greek
Orthodox way, just to be different, but we didn't, as we never had any links
to that church.
JMB
>
> "JMB" <j...@utvinternet.ie> wrote in message
> news:3bd2...@ni-news.utvinternet.com...
>
> > > > > > Cyprus was forced to adopt a constitution that treated the
> > > > > > Christian Majority as second class citizens giving the Muslim
> > minority
> > > > the
> > > > > > right to veto all of its laws. When the Turks invaded in 1974
they
> > > > > > perpetrated MASS GENOCIDE.
> > > >
> > > > Who said that?!?
> > >
> > > The European Court of Humans Rights.
> > >
> >
> > Actually, while this is totally off the subject of ancient history, it
> > should be noted that the ECHR never said that.
> >
> > This link shows what the ECHR actually found Turkey guilty off:
> >
> > http://www.argyros.argyrou.btinternet.co.uk/Guilty.htm#a
>
> That link is a reference earlier an earlier case.
>
> It youre going to post links from my web sites then you might try posting
> the right ones.
>
> http://www.geocities.com/discover_turkey/Guilty2.htm#a
>
One was the same as the other, i.e. no mention of genocide. I posted links
from your own site in the hope that you might pay attention to your own
work!
WolfWolf
> Ireland from between 100 and 1200 AD was under the dominion of the Greek
> Orthodox Church.
Wow! I didn't see this. This is really heavy. I will collect this anectode
for history lessons. :-))
Tell me - is there some place in the Universe were Greek have NOT been?
Of course they influenced also the Mayo culture - especially their tradition
with human sacrifices.
And they erected the strange heads on Easter Islands.
When did they reach the moon?!? Armstrong was told to have found traces of
Aristoteles there.
WolfWolf
WolfWolf
> Turkey has been found GUILTY of Article 2 (a), (b), (c), (d), (e) of the
> convention by the ECHR and is therefore GUILTY of MASS GENOCIDE.
Go and tell this to your government. It doesn't speak any word about it -
nor does the European Commission, nor the European Court of Human Rights,
nor the UN.
Since GENOCIDE is a crime of compulsory prosecution, the silence of your
government and the other bodies can only mean that they are involved as
accomplices.
Hurry - before it comes come under the statute of limitation.
WolfWolf
Eric Stevens
<10162...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>"Archi-tammuz" <agamemnon*SPAM@TRAP*hello.to> wrote in message
>news:9qu1hi$epj$1...@uranium.btinternet.com...
>
>> > > > Oh give me a break. Byzantium was conquered by Philip of Macedon,
>life
>> > > time
>> > > > Archon of Athens, in 350 BC. It was a wholly GREEK city ever since.
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > Did a little thing called the Roman Empire slip by you there, or did
>you
>> > > just miss that class in school?
>> >
>> > Next time he will tell us that America was discovered by Greek and that
>> New
>> > York was founded by Petros Fragma-ammon (Peter Stuyvesant).
>>
>> Christopher Columbus family were Byzantine Greek refugees who fled to
>> southern Italy which was then ethnically Greek, bring existing Greek maps
>of
>> the Americas with them.
>
>Oh yes, "existing Greek maps of the Americas".
>Columbus (Italian: Cristoforo Colombo, Spanish: Cristobal Colón, Portuguese:
>Cristóvão Colom - no Greek name used by him) was born in Genoa - Northern
>Italy. He declared himself of "Western Mediterranean" origin, and gave some
>contradictory information about his past - telling that his mother was
>Irish.
There is one story that because of the pogroms of the period he was
frantically trying to hide the fact that he was of jewish descent.
--- snip ---
>
>Today we know that Columbus was not the first to cross the Atlantic by ship.
>The Vikings did it before - in the 11 or 12 century - but did not establish
>permanent settlements. They did not use Greek maps either.
Nor do they appear to have been the first.
--- snip ---
Eric Stevens
There are two classes of people. Those who divide people into
two classes, and those who don't. I belong to the second class.
Voyager
Women Who Spoke Against Police Abuse Face Prosecution
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A5
3117-2001May20
By Molly Moore
Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday, May 21, 2001; Page A01
ISTANBUL -- Nazli Top was walking home from work nine years ago when she was
stopped at a security checkpoint. She says she was taken to a police station
where she was held captive for 10 days by officers who beat her, prodded her
with electric shocks until her body went numb, then raped her with a
truncheon. She was 32 years old and three months pregnant.
Last June, Top told her story at Turkey's first public conference on the
abuse of women in police custody -- an event women's rights advocates hailed
as a milestone in a country in which sexual violence against women is
frequently ignored, covered up or deemed taboo for public debate.
Six months later, Top and 18 other conference speakers and organizers were
charged with "insulting and raising suspicions about Turkish security
forces." If convicted, each could receive a six-year prison term.
"The police who did this should be standing here -- not me," Top told the
judge hearing her case. "I am being victimized for the second time."
The prosecutions come during an intensifying struggle over freedom of
expression and individual rights in a country torn between the march toward
integration with the European Union and an entrenched culture that protects
government institutions from rigorous public scrutiny.
"If this was a democratic country, officials would start investigations
against the police instead of going after the people making the
accusations," Top, a nurse in the research laboratory of a hospital in
suburban Istanbul, said in an interview.
Human rights advocates say Turkey's laws against insulting or belittling the
government are often used to silence journalists, intellectuals, government
opponents and victims of abuse by police and military forces. European Union
officials evaluating Turkey's membership application have demanded it
abandon or moderate such laws.
Amnesty International asked Turkish authorities to drop the charges against
Top and her co-defendants "who are guilty only of peacefully expressing
their views." Instead, the government recently reviewed the speeches made by
several of the participants and filed new charges against five of the women,
accusing them under Turkey's anti-terrorism laws of spreading separatist
propaganda, according to Fatma Karatas, an attorney and one of the women
facing the additional charges. Those laws, which cover a broad range of
religious and ethnic issues, are among the most frequently used in freedom
of expression cases in Turkey, Karatas said.
Another of the five women targetted with the additional charges is a
45-year-old Kurdish mother of five who is suing seven policemen for torture
and rape during 33 days she was detained in 1992 in southeastern Turkey,
where Kurdish separatists led a rebel uprising against Turkish forces.
Prosecutors in the cases against the conference participants did not return
several telephone calls requesting comment on the government's position.
Government authorities traditionally defend the laws used in this case as
necessary to protect the state from separatist and religious extremist
groups.
"This conference was the first of its kind," said Nahide Kilic, an official
of Initiative Against Sexual Abuse and Rape in Custody, an Istanbul-based
victim support group that helped organize the meeting last June. "People
came forward and talked about their experiences to set an example for those
too scared to come forward. Now, with these charges, the state wants to
silence the people."
Participants in the Assembly Against Sexual Harassment and Rape Under
Detention, which was attended by about 2,000 people, said they were stunned
by the government's charges because the conference had been approved by the
government and most of the victims had revealed details of their allegations
in unsuccessful court cases against the police or in other official
complaints.
Many of the speakers highlighted the court's reluctance to prosecute members
of the security forces accused of raping or otherwise abusing detainees,
especially women.
"Amnesty International has documented a general climate of impunity for
those suspected of torture and ill-treatment in Turkey," the human rights
group wrote in a recent report. "Even where complaints of serious human
rights violations are pursued by the authorities and security officers are
prosecuted, only a negligible proportion of them are eventually convicted.
In cases where a conviction occurs, security officials often receive the
lightest possible sentences."
Amnesty International cited figures it said were obtained from the Turkish
government that show convictions for only 10 of 577 security officials
accused of torture between 1995 and 1999. During the same period, 2,851
investigations into other forms of alleged ill-treatment of detainees
resulted in 84 convictions. Turkish authorities have said they were
attempting to eradicate such incidents of torture and were trying to
increase protection for detainees. But women's rights advocates said Top's
case was representative of the victims' experiences.
Top was walking home from the hospital where she worked on a late spring
afternoon in 1992 when police investigating an attack on a nearby police
vehicle stopped her to check her identification. After driving her to a
police station and questioning her for hours, Top said one of the policemen
told her, "Now we're going to take you to the operating room. But it's not
like the ones you've seen in your hospital."
"They beat me with sticks with sharp ends," Top said, her hands shaking as
she recounted the incident. "They tied my hands behind my back and hung me
from a rope. They hit me like a punching bag.
"They put electric shocks on my breasts and genitals and all over my body.
They kept increasing the voltage. After awhile I was numb, I didn't even fee
l the electricity. Then they raped me with a truncheon."
Top said she survived by talking to the baby she was carrying, even though
she feared the fetus had died from the abuse. Her son survived.
When police released her several days later after pressing no charges, Top
was taken to a crowded room where a doctor was examining detainees. The
doctor asked, "Do you have any complaints?"
"I was tortured," Top said.
"Everyone is tortured," the doctor replied. "Do you have any other
complaints?"
Top's case against the police who allegedly detained her dragged on for 2
1/2 years until the judge dropped all charges against them, accepting the
prosecutor's explanation that Top had inflicted bruises on herself and had
obtained a fake medical report from the hospital where she worked.
Top said she decided to address the Istanbul conference last year because,
"When I was apprehended, there was no organized resistance. Now there is,
and I'm part of it."
© 2001 The Washington Post Company
Voyager
WolfWolf
news:j9j6ttolif99698k6...@4ax.com...
> >Oh yes, "existing Greek maps of the Americas".
> >Columbus (Italian: Cristoforo Colombo, Spanish: Cristobal Colón,
Portuguese:
> >Cristóvão Colom - no Greek name used by him) was born in Genoa - Northern
> >Italy. He declared himself of "Western Mediterranean" origin, and gave
some
> >contradictory information about his past - telling that his mother was
> >Irish.
>
> There is one story that because of the pogroms of the period he was
> frantically trying to hide the fact that he was of jewish descent.
Yes, in fact - this is one story. Historians believe that the the reason why
he tried to "polish" his origins was due to the fact of coming out of a poor
family.
>
> --- snip ---
> >
> >Today we know that Columbus was not the first to cross the Atlantic by
ship.
> >The Vikings did it before - in the 11 or 12 century - but did not
establish
> >permanent settlements. They did not use Greek maps either.
>
> Nor do they appear to have been the first.
>
> --- snip ---
>
>
> Eric Stevens
>
>
> There are two classes of people. Those who divide people into
> two classes, and those who don't. I belong to the second class.
And where would you put the others?
WolfWolf
Ismael
> >Oh yes, "existing Greek maps of the Americas".
> >Columbus (Italian: Cristoforo Colombo, Spanish: Cristobal Colón, Portuguese:
> >Cristóvão Colom - no Greek name used by him) was born in Genoa - Northern
> >Italy. He declared himself of "Western Mediterranean" origin, and gave some
> >contradictory information about his past - telling that his mother was
> >Irish.
>
> There is one story that because of the pogroms of the period he was
> frantically trying to hide the fact that he was of jewish descent.
Other one says he was related with the Catalan family Colom. As
members of this family (admiral Casanova-Colom, for example) had
leaded a rebellion against the father of king Ferdinand, he wanted to
hide this origin.
Ismael
Ismael
> "Archi-tammuz" <agamemnon*SPAM@TRAP*hello.to> wrote in message
> news:9qul2o$6cm$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com...
> He knew that China was northwards from India. According to the position of
> the sun, he thought to be on the geographical altitude of India.
> The people he found were called by him in Spanish "Indios" - exactly as the
> habitants of India.
> This word has no ethymological link with "indigenous" (in Spanish
> "indígenos").
"Indígenas" :-)
Ismael
Ismael
> > Oh yes, "existing Greek maps of the Americas".
> > Columbus (Italian: Cristoforo Colombo, Spanish: Cristobal Colón,
> Portuguese:
>
> Columbus signed his name Xhrisoforos which is the GREEK spelling of
> Christopher which is Greek for "Christ Bringer". His last name was also
> Greek, Xarolambos meaning "Bright and Shining"
Here is a signature of Columbus:
http://www.humanities-interactive.org/newworld/fact_fict/768/ex036_04b.jpg
You may see it is not "foros" but "ferens": Latin, not Greek.
Ismael
Archi-tammuz
"Ismael" <is...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:731a660a.0110...@posting.google.com...
The first past is Xpo which is in Greek Script (Hi Ro Omicron) no Latin.
>
> Ismael
WolfWolf
"Indígenas" only for female gender. I understand that this is your
preference :-))
For male individuals or for a collectivity in whole (like in the case
above - "Indios") "Indígenos" is used.
WolfWolf
WolfWolf
> > There is one story that because of the pogroms of the period he was
> > frantically trying to hide the fact that he was of jewish descent.
>
> Other one says he was related with the Catalan family Colom. As
> members of this family (admiral Casanova-Colom, for example) had
> leaded a rebellion against the father of king Ferdinand, he wanted to
> hide this origin.
>
> Ismael
I know about the Catalan version. In fact, he might have spent more time in
Barcelona than in Genova. My personal believing, however, is that he would
have stressed much more his Català origin if he would come from there. And
he would have left some "collons" in his writings. :-))
WolfWolf
Ismael
news:9r1dr9$d3$1...@suaar1ab.prod.compuserve.com...
Hey, guy, I'm Spanish, Spanish is my mother language, my sister is teacher
of Spanish, I was born in Spain and I live in the place where the best
Spanish is supposed to be spoken. Don't tell me this :-)
"-o/-os" for male and "-a/-as" for female is the general rule, as is the
case of "indios", but there are exceptions, usually a word of greek origin:
planeta, tema .... and indígena are male words.
... or, if you don't believe me, try to find "indígeno" in any Spanish
dictionary (there are someones on line http://www.diccionarios.com/,
http://tradu.scig.uniovi.es/busca.html ...)
Ismael
WolfWolf
> Hey, guy, I'm Spanish, Spanish is my mother language, my sister is teacher
> of Spanish, I was born in Spain and I live in the place where the best
> Spanish is supposed to be spoken. Don't tell me this :-)
>
> "-o/-os" for male and "-a/-as" for female is the general rule, as is the
> case of "indios", but there are exceptions, usually a word of greek
origin:
> planeta, tema .... and indígena are male words.
Fue un lapso freudiano. Gracias por la advertencia.
Las mujeres indígenas
Los hombres indígenas
Así es correcto en la lengua de Cervantes.
Saludos
WolfWolf
Voyager
απευθυνει και χαιρετισμους μαλιστα.
Αυτο να δεις τι μου θυμιζει. !!!!!!!
Ε ρε και τι μου θυμιζει.
Ταξιδιωτης
>WolfWolf <em...@address.net>εγραψε
>
>Fue un lapso freudiano. Gracias por la advertencia.
>Las mujeres indνgenas
>Los hombres indνgenas
>Asν es correcto en la lengua de Cervantes.
>
>Saludos
Voyager
The Greek verb is fero = bring (you bring = fereis)
the man who brings is foros or foreas.
Christ + foros = Christoforos = Christopher.
The other important thing in Columbus signature is the
X M Y which is a typical part of the signature of every person
in the Greek Orthodox world at this era.
X M Y = Xristos Meth Ymon = Christ With Us.
Voyager
>Ismael <is...@my-deja.com>wrote
Voyager
It was the abbreviation of the name of Christ established
in Byzantium.
XPO = XRISTOS = Christ.
Voyager
>Archi-tammuz <agamemnon*SPAM@TRAP*hello.to>wrote
Ismael
> Fue un lapso freudiano. Gracias por la advertencia.
De nada.
Mejor seguimos en pichinglish, que alguno se nos está mosqueando :-)
Ismael
Ismael
news:9r23at$pg0$1...@usenet.otenet.gr...
> And what "ferens" means in Spanish ???
In Spanish? nothing. Actually, there is no word, AFAIK, in Spanish, which
ends in "ns".
Verb "fero" also exists in Latin, meaning 'to bear' or 'to carry' (copied
from Greek?), and "Ferens" its present participle.
> The Greek verb is fero = bring (you bring = fereis)
> the man who brings is foros or foreas.
>
> Christ + foros = Christoforos = Christopher.
>
> The other important thing in Columbus signature is the
>
> X M Y which is a typical part of the signature of every person
> in the Greek Orthodox world at this era.
>
> X M Y = Xristos Meth Ymon = Christ With Us.
Well, there are some more things in the signature, apart from this XMS, and
all the interpretations you want. For example
S. i.e. Servidor
S. A. S. : Sus Altezas Sacras
X. M. Y. : Xesus Maria Ysabel
X to. FERENS: Christopher (note that someones read "to" instead of "po")
(Servant-of their Sacred Highnesses-Jesus Mary and Isabella-Christopher)
Or:
Servus
Sum Altissimi Salvatoris
Xriste Maria Yesu
XpoFERENS
(I am the servant of the most exalted Saviour
Christ, Mary, Jesus)
Christbearer
Salvo
Sanctum Altissimum Sepulcrum
Xriste Maria Yesu
(I shall save the Holy, most high sepulcher
Christ, Mary, Jesus)
Christbearer
Or:
Sum
Sequax Amator Servus
Xristi Mariae Yosephi
(I am follower, devotee and servant of Christ, Mary, Joseph)
And we could mention some more interpretations, involving Templars,
Nostradamus ... :-)
An interesting one says that Christo - Ferens is an encryption of Columbus's
real name : Salvador Fernandes; Christo is the name of our Savior (Salvador
in Portuguese) and Ferens is a Portuguese abbreviation of the name
Fernandes.
Ismael
WolfWolf
news:9r23at$pg0$1...@usenet.otenet.gr...
> And what "ferens" means in Spanish ???
What has this to do with Columbus' signature?
He signed in Latin.
He learnt writing in Lisbon.
Has there been any Greek handwriting teacher at that time in Lisbon?
Until the modern age, Greece's universum ended at the straits of Gibraltar.
Greek were afraid of travelling beyond this point.
>
> The Greek verb is fero = bring (you bring = fereis)
> the man who brings is foros or foreas.
And what has this to do with Columbus' signature?
He wrote "-ferens", present participle of "ferre"
He did not write "foros"
One eminent historian, Hevesy, wrote:
"To further that illusion, he often signed his letters with initials ending
with a line that meant Christo Ferens --Christ Bearer--indicating "the
religious import" of his mission."
Extensive information can be found in "Uma Interpretação de Assinatura de
Cristóvaõ Columbo" by Moses Bensabat Amzalak (Lisbon, 1927)
>
> Christ + foros = Christoforos = Christopher.
>
> The other important thing in Columbus signature is the
>
> X M Y which is a typical part of the signature of every person
> in the Greek Orthodox world at this era.
>
> X M Y = Xristos Meth Ymon = Christ With Us.
Wrong! One of the few things where historians agree is that "all attempts to
decipher Columbus' strange signature have been vain, the last line reads:
Chrispto Ferens, "Porter of Christ', Cristobal. The rest is an enigma."
Two of many (unsuccessful) attempts to explain the meaning of the signs:
"This sign has been interpreted by some historians as an abreviation of the
Jewish blessing Baruch Hashem (Blessed be the Lord)."
"Columbus' letters to his son Diego reveal, at the foot of every page, an
enigmatic triangular signature, which according to Qabbalists, contains a
clearly magical significance aimed at overcoming storms and uncovering the
lands where the Sun is hidden, which is under the protection of Samael, one
of the most powerful spirits."
WolfWolf
Voyager
Ismael
Christopher Columbus couldn't ever be just a poor weaver from
Genova as the official version says.
BTW the Greek island of Chios was under Genova's rule at those
times.
Moreover there's letters of Columbus where he writes the name
Chios as XIOS (the Greek way).
The researcher Ruth Wolper found at 1979 the house of his
family in the island of Chios XIOS, with his name on the doorway.
I make a search on the web last night but i found almost nothing
regarding his childhood, wherever i look even in the Catholic
encyclopedia.
All of your examples of possible meaning of the letters XPO and
XMY are wrong and sounds funny since.
The version you give (XMY=Xriste Maria Yesu) looks very strange
since the name of Christ exists two times (as Xriste and Yesu)
If he meant that why he wrote the name of Christ twice ???
BTW even in your version you can't find other way to explain the
letter X other than the Greek "Xriste".
XPO is the Greek abbreviation of the name of Christ =Xristos
(in the Greek alphabet XPISTOS since P = R in Greek.)
you can find in almost every single icon of Christ in the Byzantine
style.
When you claim that X. M. Y means Xesus Maria Ysabel
i can only laugh about. It's meaningless.
After all it's Isabel not Ysabel. :-)))))))
XMY was an integral part of the signature of every person in the
Greek Orthodox world and means Xristos Meth Ymon=Christ With Us
as i have mention before.
There's no doubt that the name Christopher is Greek as well as
the verb fero (puristic Greek) or ferno-ferneis (popular Greek)
it means bring so Christopher is the man who brings the Christ.
So Columbus used to write and explain the meaning of his name
using the Greek abbreviation of the name of Christ XPO and the
Greek verb fernes as it is (the last "e" pronounced like "i".
just like in the word "material" for example).
After all a poor weaver from Genova couldn't even approach
people like the Queen Isabella of Spain and be the Chief Admiral
of the Spanish fleet.
Spain could never trust for such an important voyage a poor weaver
from Genova without naval experience and naval skills.
Furthermore we have some very important evidence regarding the
life and origin of Christopher Columbus like.
1) A letter of Christopher Columbus to Donna Joana Del Torres
when he wrote among the others.
"I'm not the first Admiral in my family, let them call me with any name
they want."
2) The biography of Christopher Columbus written by his son
Ferdinand where he writes that his father learn the naval vocation
by his uncle the Admiral Colon.
Researchers found searching the French archives that the Admiral
Colon was the famous Greek pirate Georgios Dysipatos Palaiologos
from the Greek island of Chios who was the terror of the Turks in
the Aegean those times.
The French navy asking for capable Admirals asked from
Georgios Dysipatos Palaiologos to join the French navy and they
give him the name Colon De Jeune.
The Venecians used to call him Georgi Greco.
That obviously explains the deep knowledge of Christopher Columbus
in navigating, astronomy, etc.
3) The signature of Christopher Columbus where
we can see that he used to sign with the Byzantine way.
X M Y = Xristos meth' ymon = Christ With Us.
This used to put every person of the Greek Orthodox world in his
signature those days.
XPO FERNES = I'm carrying (bringing) the Christ.
That is what the Greek name Christopher means.
4) The Spanish historian Martir mention that Columbus send from
America letter to his brother written in unknown symbols.
Which symbols could those be if not the Greek thinking about
all these i wrote above.
5) One of the most important evidence is that Columbus didn't
knew Italian !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The letters he send to the Pope and the banker of Genova
Antonio Kallo he wrote them in Spanish !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How can be possible an Italian man not to know Italian ????
BTW he never said that he was a Genoveze ditto both of his
brothers.
6) For the needs of his voyage to the new world he offered
500.000 maraventis and the Queen Isabel of Spain 1.000.000
maraventis.
How could a poor weaver to have such of money.???
If he was a poor weaver indeed he couldn't have even the 1% of
these money.
As you can see some things are very clear about the Greek
origin of Christopher Columbus.
Voyager
Ismael <is...@my-deja.com>
"Voyager" <ji...@dmail.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:9r23at$pg0$1...@usenet.otenet.gr...
> And what "ferens" means in Spanish ???
Ismael <is...@my-deja.com>
Ismael
>
> Ismael
>
> Christopher Columbus couldn't ever be just a poor weaver from
> Genova as the official version says.
Of course, he was member of a noble Catalan family :-)
> I make a search on the web last night but i found almost nothing
> regarding his childhood, wherever i look even in the Catholic
> encyclopedia.
Already discussed.
> All of your examples of possible meaning of the letters XPO and
> XMY are wrong and sounds funny since.
Well, there are examples "demonstratring" everything you want: these are the
ones I found in some minutes. WolfWolf has mentioned a bit more ones. Of
course, you are free to say the one you like more is the right one, and all
the other ones we could find are wrong :-)
Only one more thing about these interpretations:
> When you claim that X. M. Y means Xesus Maria Ysabel
> i can only laugh about. It's meaningless.
> After all it's Isabel not Ysabel. :-)))))))
Please learn a bit of Old Castilian before making this kind of affirmations.
It is Isabel, in XXI century.
It was Ysabel, in XV century.
If you know so much about Columbus, you should have seen the flag of his
ship, with the F and the Y of Fernando & Ysabel
http://atlasgeo.span.ch/fotw/images/e/es~cc492.gif
Or you may comprobated their official letters begun with:
«Don Fernando e doña Ysabel, por la gracia de Dios, rey e reyna de Castilla,
de Leon, de Aragon, de Secília, de Toledo, de Valencia, de Galízia, de
Mallorcas, de Sevilla, de Cerdeña, de Cordova, de Corcega, de Murcia, de
Jaen, de los Algarbes, de Aljezira, e Gibraltar, conde e condesa de
Barcelona, señores de Vizcaya e de Molina, duques de Atenas o de Neopatria,
condes de Rosellón e de Qerdania, marqueses de Oristan e de Gociano"
(http://www.lajabalcuza.com/carta%20reyes%20catolicos.htm)
And the rest. Well.
> 1) A letter of Christopher Columbus to Donna Joana Del Torres
> when he wrote among the others.
> "I'm not the first Admiral in my family, let them call me with any name
> they want."
Of course, he is speaking about his relative admiral Casanova-Colom. I
mentioned him before
> 2) The biography of Christopher Columbus written by his son
> Ferdinand where he writes that his father learn the naval vocation
> by his uncle the Admiral Colon.
Yes, and when Ferdinand tried to look for Columbus origins, he went to
Catalonia to find them.
> 5) One of the most important evidence is that Columbus didn't
> knew Italian !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> The letters he send to the Pope and the banker of Genova
> Antonio Kallo he wrote them in Spanish !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> How can be possible an Italian man not to know Italian ????
He didn't write Italian, which is different that not knowing it ... he wrote
Spanish, Catalan and Portuguese, not Greek. How many people do you know who
write Catalan, without being Catalan?
BTW, the Pope was Spanish, why he shouldn't write him in Spanish?
> BTW he never said that he was a Genoveze ditto both of his
> brothers.
False, there is a copy of his testament conserved, where he says he was born
in Genoa "pues que della salí y en ella nací."
> 6) For the needs of his voyage to the new world he offered
> 500.000 maraventis and the Queen Isabel of Spain 1.000.000
> maraventis.
Maravedís, please
> How could a poor weaver to have such of money.???
> If he was a poor weaver indeed he couldn't have even the 1% of
> these money.
>
> As you can see some things are very clear about the Greek
> origin of Christopher Columbus.
As you can see, the things you mention defend his Catalan origin, too.
Ismael
WolfWolf
Sigo en castellano, por razones obvias.
Los que aquí se estan mosqueando son increíbles. Un par de griegos que
inundan permanentemente el foro turco con cantidad de agresiones y
porquería. Les he mostrado en su casa alguna que otra alegoría de su propia
actitud, y ahora pretenden romperme las narices. Pero ya se están cansando.
WolfWolf
WolfWolf
>
> Ismael
>
> Christopher Columbus couldn't ever be just a poor weaver from
> Genova as the official version says.
"The" official version does not exist. There are several sources, mostly in
accordance with each other and in part with differences.
The reason of the incongruencies about his origin comes mainly from Columbus
himself. He wanted to disguise the reality of his poor origin.
> BTW the Greek island of Chios was under Genova's rule at those
> times.
That's why the Genovese Columbus participated in one expedition to this
island in 1474 or 1475, at the age of 24 years.
> Moreover there's letters of Columbus where he writes the name
> Chios as XIOS (the Greek way).
> The researcher Ruth Wolper found at 1979 the house of his
> family in the island of Chios XIOS, with his name on the doorway.
Other "researchers" found the house of his family in Lisbon, Baixa district.
>
> I make a search on the web last night but i found almost nothing
> regarding his childhood, wherever i look even in the Catholic
> encyclopedia.
You should not search on the web, you must go to Seville, Spain, and search
in the "Archivo de Indias". Allow 4-6 months time to get through the books.
> All of your examples of possible meaning of the letters XPO and
> XMY are wrong and sounds funny since.
>
> The version you give (XMY=Xriste Maria Yesu) looks very strange
> since the name of Christ exists two times (as Xriste and Yesu)
> If he meant that why he wrote the name of Christ twice ???
> BTW even in your version you can't find other way to explain the
> letter X other than the Greek "Xriste".
>
> XPO is the Greek abbreviation of the name of Christ =Xristos
> (in the Greek alphabet XPISTOS since P = R in Greek.)
> you can find in almost every single icon of Christ in the Byzantine
> style.
>
> When you claim that X. M. Y means Xesus Maria Ysabel
> i can only laugh about. It's meaningless.
> After all it's Isabel not Ysabel. :-)))))))
The letter "I" and "Y" are nearly equivalent in Spanish. At the time of
Queen Isabel (Elizabeth in English), her name was written mostly as
"Ysabel". You can find also frequently the spelling "Yindias" instead of
"Indias".
>
> XMY was an integral part of the signature of every person in the
> Greek Orthodox world and means Xristos Meth Ymon=Christ With Us
> as i have mention before.
> There's no doubt that the name Christopher is Greek as well as
> the verb fero (puristic Greek) or ferno-ferneis (popular Greek)
> it means bring so Christopher is the man who brings the Christ.
> So Columbus used to write and explain the meaning of his name
> using the Greek abbreviation of the name of Christ XPO and the
> Greek verb fernes as it is (the last "e" pronounced like "i".
> just like in the word "material" for example).
>
> After all a poor weaver from Genova couldn't even approach
> people like the Queen Isabella of Spain and be the Chief Admiral
> of the Spanish fleet.
Columbus' father was Domenico Colombo. Columbus was born poor and he died
poor. During his life he achieved to become "Vice-King" of the discovered
territories.
At that time, with Portugal and Spain in heavy competition for finding the
way to Far East, many things were possible. A skilled person with high
instinct like Columbus could find his way, like Bill Gates in our days.
He first offered his services to the Portuguese crown, and only after being
refused he went to the other big power, Spain.
> Spain could never trust for such an important voyage a poor weaver
> from Genova without naval experience and naval skills.
He developed early skills for navigation and shipbuilding. He had perfect
knowledge of mathematics. He was 41 years old when he started his first
expedition over the Atlantic.
> Furthermore we have some very important evidence regarding the
> life and origin of Christopher Columbus like.
You forgot to mention the "documento Aseretto", which is considered by
historians the most important link to his origin.
>
> 1) A letter of Christopher Columbus to Donna Joana Del Torres
> when he wrote among the others.
> "I'm not the first Admiral in my family, let them call me with any name
> they want."
>
> 2) The biography of Christopher Columbus written by his son
> Ferdinand where he writes that his father learn the naval vocation
> by his uncle the Admiral Colon.
His son Hernando developed several phantasies. He also linked his father
with the French corsar Guillaume de Casanove-Coullon - a fake, making use of
the phonetic similitude.
Columbus learnt navigation from his early years, mostly by autodidactic.
In 1476, when travelling from Genoa to Flandes, his ship was captured near
Cape São Vicente (southwestern point of Portugal) by a French squadron under
the command of Guillaume de Casanove-Coullon which controlled the Portuguese
coast. He achieved to escape and arrived to Lisbon where he married. His
father-in-law had strong links with Portuguese naval circles.
> Researchers found searching the French archives that the Admiral
> Colon was the famous Greek pirate Georgios Dysipatos Palaiologos
> from the Greek island of Chios who was the terror of the Turks in
> the Aegean those times.
Where are such French archives? All written documents of Columbus' era were
carefully collected by the Spanish monk Bartolomé De Las Casas and brought
to Seville, where they still remain.
Obviously, Voyager loves everything that smells like "terror of the Turks".
> The French navy asking for capable Admirals asked from
> Georgios Dysipatos Palaiologos to join the French navy and they
> give him the name Colon De Jeune.
His only contact with French navigators was in 1476, when his ship was
captured by the French corsar Guillaume de Casanove-Coullon.
> The Venecians used to call him Georgi Greco.
In any case, it would be "Giorgio" - but Columbus was never in Venice.
> That obviously explains the deep knowledge of Christopher Columbus
> in navigating, astronomy, etc.
He was autodidact and started learning in Genoa, one of the most important
maritime centres in the western Mediterranean.
>
> 3) The signature of Christopher Columbus where
> we can see that he used to sign with the Byzantine way.
> X M Y = Xristos meth' ymon = Christ With Us.
> This used to put every person of the Greek Orthodox world in his
> signature those days.
> XPO FERNES = I'm carrying (bringing) the Christ.
> That is what the Greek name Christopher means.
>
> 4) The Spanish historian Martir mention that Columbus send from
> America letter to his brother written in unknown symbols.
> Which symbols could those be if not the Greek thinking about
> all these i wrote above.
He used freqently strange symbols. Their meaning was never discovered.
Similitude with Greek letters are mere coincidence.
>
> 5) One of the most important evidence is that Columbus didn't
> knew Italian !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Of course he knew Italian! Otherwise, how could he have conducted his
business in Genoa as described in the "documento Aseretto"?
After marriage he learnt to write - first in Portuguese, later in Spanish.
Spanish became his favourite language, but his partners complained that he
did not speak clearly - always mixing with Latin and Italian words. This bad
habit gave rise to the speculation that he used the Hebrew language when
invoking God - and from there some people believe that he must have been
Jewish.
> The letters he send to the Pope and the banker of Genova
> Antonio Kallo he wrote them in Spanish !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> How can be possible an Italian man not to know Italian ????
> BTW he never said that he was a Genoveze ditto both of his
> brothers.
Read the "documento Aseretto" and the "Raccolta colombiana". Of course he
used also the Italian lenguage for his contacts with Toscanelli and
Vespucci.
>
> 6) For the needs of his voyage to the new world he offered
> 500.000 maraventis and the Queen Isabel of Spain 1.000.000
> maraventis.
> How could a poor weaver to have such of money.???
He was a self-made man. See above.
> If he was a poor weaver indeed he couldn't have even the 1% of
> these money.
>
> As you can see some things are very clear about the Greek
> origin of Christopher Columbus.
>
> Voyager
You may ignore basic facts and believe that he was Greek. But you would need
500 years to re-write the history.
WolfWolf
Voyager
Were is the evidence that he was a member of a noble
Catalan family.?
As for the rest you still don't have an explanation to this
X other the Greek letter X = H (Xristos = Christ).
It sounds funny that Columbus who was born and live in
Genova the early years of his lie could speak Italian but he
couldn't write Italian, although he could use the Latin alphabet
(in fact the early Greek alphabet Chalcedean) so well writing
in Spanish Catalan etc.
BTW is it true that Barchelona's first name was Calipolis
(Good city in Greek) and it was founded by Greeks ?
Voyager
Ismael <is...@my-deja.com>wrote
WolfWolf
> Ismael
>
> It sounds funny that Columbus who was born and live in
> Genova the early years of his lie could speak Italian but he
> couldn't write Italian, although he could use the Latin alphabet
> (in fact the early Greek alphabet Chalcedean) so well writing
> in Spanish Catalan etc.
He learnt writing in Lisbon. He wrote in Latin letters.
>
> BTW is it true that Barchelona's first name was Calipolis
> (Good city in Greek) and it was founded by Greeks ?
Barcelona's origin was an Iberic settlement called "Laye". There are no
Greek evidences.
Calipolis is mentioned in the "Ora marítima" as ancient, pre-romanic
settlement near Tarragona. No traces have been found.
WolfWolf
Inger E Johansson
"WolfWolf" <em...@address.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:9r9rqi$lvr$1...@suaar1ab.prod.compuserve.com...
However Calipolis or should I say a village/settlement with almost the same
spelling was mentioned during Roman time as well. In one of Orosius books, I
am not sure but I think it was in one of the chapters in the book I read in
English translation "Seven books against pagans", a place with an alike name
was mentioned. I have seen it in one of the earlier Arabian Carthographer's
book as well.
Inger E
>
>
WolfWolf
news:G74C7.2694$Z_1.4...@newsc.telia.net...
I have searched intensively in Spanish literature about Calipolis - with the
only result given above.
There is a Hotel Calipolis in Sitges, about 25 miles south from Barcelona.
I am not sure if it received the name from the ancient settlement or from
Shakespeare's "Henry IV":
"Then feed and be fat, my fair Calipolis."
WolfWolf
Voyager
Barcelona and it was founded by Greeks.
According to the same source in the place where the
Cathedral of Barcelona is today, it was in the
antiquity the temple of the goddess Artemis.
I haven't double check this information yet.
The Greek colonization of Spain starts already at the
Creto-Mycenaic era.
However the main Greek colonization of Spain started
at the 8th century b.c. and mostly at the 6th century when
Greek settlers from Fokea (Asia Minor) created
Massalia (Marseilles) in the south of France.
Massalia by the time created Nice (Nikaia) Andip (Antipolis)
Avenion (Avinion) and other cities in France.
In Spain they created Emporion (Empuries) Rodi (Rode founded
by Greek settlers from Rhodes) and many others.
Even the name Spain-Espania (I Spania) is a Greek name
(means the infrequent land) and they call it that way because of
the wealth of this land. Gold, Silver, pewter etc.
The name Iberia (Iberico Artemision) it's also Greek
Ditto the bull fightings which in the antiquity had nothing to do
with killings of bulls as it happens today ,they have their roots
in the myth of Theseas and Mynotaurus, and it was one of the
most popular acrobatic games in the ancient Greek world.
Voyager
>Inger E Johansson <inger_e....@telia.com>wrote
>
Ismael
> Sigo en castellano, por razones obvias.
>
> Los que aquí se estan mosqueando son increíbles. Un par de griegos que
> inundan permanentemente el foro turco con cantidad de agresiones y
> porquería. Les he mostrado en su casa alguna que otra alegoría de su
propia
> actitud, y ahora pretenden romperme las narices. Pero ya se están
cansando.
Ah, son dos? yo pensaba que eran el mismo.
Hasta luego
Ismael
Ismael
> Even the name Spain-Espania (I Spania) is a Greek name
> (means the infrequent land) and they call it that way because of
> the wealth of this land. Gold, Silver, pewter etc.
I have always heard that "Spanija" is Carthaginian, and means "land of
rabbits", not this version :-)
Ismael
Ismael
> Ismael
>
> Were is the evidence that he was a member of a noble
> Catalan family.?
Evidence? There are some indications who could fix with this theory, but no
evidence, of course. Like there is no "evidence" which demonstrates he was
Italian, Portuguese, Greek, French, Irish, Norwegian, or all the other
nationatilities some people have defended. This is the reason we are still
arguing about it, 500 years later.
> As for the rest you still don't have an explanation to this
> X other the Greek letter X = H (Xristos = Christ).
Well, when 99% of Americans write X-mas, without being Greek, I think I
don't need to explain anything :-)
You have to explain, BTW, why he signed in Latin, not in Greek (ferens, not
foros).
> It sounds funny that Columbus who was born and live in
> Genova the early years of his lie could speak Italian but he
> couldn't write Italian,
1. Probably more of 90% of Italians of the time didn't write Italian (or any
other language). What is the problem?
2. .. and *nobody* wrote Genoese Italian at the time.
Ismael
Voyager
Spain-Espania is a Greek name and it means the infrequent land.
That name comes due to the wealth of this place.
The Greek travelers used to came back to Greek with their ships
fool of Gold, Silver, pewter, and other valuable stuff.
You need to read some ancient history i'm afraid.
Can't you see that the explanation you give "land of the raddits"
is completely fanny.
You didn't tell me about Barcelona - Calipolis is that true?
Voyager
>Ismael <is...@my-deja.com>wrote
Ismael
> You need to read some ancient history i'm afraid.
> Can't you see that the explanation you give "land of the raddits"
> is completely fanny.
"Land of the raddits"?????? Please read what others write, before making
advices about reading about any other question.
BTW, I assume you don't know that rabbit was probably the mammal most
abundant in the Iberian Peninsula, and an important problem for agriculture,
until the mixomatosis (English spelling???) plague of the 70's of last
century.
Ismael
WolfWolf
> Wrong.
>
> Spain-Espania is a Greek name and it means the infrequent land.
The Carthaginian origin of the name "Spanija" and the meaning of "land of
rabbits" is true.
WolfWolf
> That name comes due to the wealth of this place.
> The Greek travelers used to came back to Greek with their ships
> fool of Gold, Silver, pewter, and other valuable stuff.
>
> You need to read some ancient history i'm afraid.
> Can't you see that the explanation you give "land of the raddits"
> is completely fanny.
>
> You didn't tell me about Barcelona - Calipolis is that true?
Barcelona is not Calipolis. Barcelona was founded by Iberians and had the
original name of "Laye".
Voyager
>>"Voyager" <ji...@dmail.com> escribió en el mensaje
>>news:9rjkiq$4ug$1...@usenet.otenet.gr...
>> You need to read some ancient history i'm afraid.
>> Can't you see that the explanation you give "land of the raddits"
> is completely fanny.
: Ismael <is...@my-deja.com>wrote
>"Land of the raddits"?????? Please read what others write, before making
>advices about reading about any other question.
>
Yes land of raddits was what you wrote i have your original message
below.
>BTW, I assume you don't know that rabbit was probably the mammal most
>abundant in the Iberian Peninsula, and an important problem for
agriculture,
>until the mixomatosis (English spelling???) plague of the 70's of last
>century.
>
>Ismael
Jesus Christ what are you saying ?????
Rabbits exists in every single place for Christ sake and they are
frequently a problem for the agriculture ALL over the world.
Why you insist on this and sound funny ???
The name Spain Espania is of Greek origin and it means
the infrequent, that's the truth.
It was the Greek colonist who give to this land that name due
to the wealth of this land.
Open some history book and stop been so chauvinist.
You didn't tell me if the first name of Barcelona was Calipolis.
----- Original Message -----
From: Ismael <is...@my-deja.com>
Newsgroups: soc.history.ancient,soc.culture.greek
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 11:56 AM
Subject: RE: HISTORY REVISED
> "Voyager" <ji...@dmail.com> escribió en el mensaje
> news:9rcve2$ha7$1...@usenet.otenet.gr...
>
> > Even the name Spain-Espania (I Spania) is a Greek name
> > (means the infrequent land) and they call it that way because of
> > the wealth of this land. Gold, Silver, pewter etc.
>
Voyager
play the historian.
Who talked to you idiot.
Stop posting fabricated by you bogus articles about
today's issues which has make you a joke and forget
about ancient history which obviously ignore.
Voyager
Inger E Johansson
I second your opinion visavi the Greeks as the "name-giver" of Spain, thus
is the same conclusion I have arrived at after studying written sources from
475 BD - 1400 AD, especially when I have read documentations of older Sea
Trade routes from the inner Mediterranean out in the Atlantic and up to
Albion(England), Eire and the Northern Countries. One question, are you
contrary to me familiar with classic Greek? Is it from that knowledge you
arrive at your conclusions?
Inger E
"Voyager" <ji...@dmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:9rknos$qov$1...@usenet.otenet.gr...
Tore Lund
>
> The Carthaginian origin of the name "Spanija" and the meaning of "land of
> rabbits" is true.
There seems to be a variety of opinion on this topic:
http://www.planetc.com/users/derwyddon/spanish.html
"It is believed that the name “Spania” comes from the Celtic word
“span” which has the same root as the English word “span” which
indicated the palm of the hand. The central meseta of the peninsula
is shaped like the palm of a hand."
So who is speaking off the top of his/her head?
--
Tore
Voyager
Look for example what the Spanish the selves saying about
although the version that the name Spain comes from the
Celtic "span" is totally false.
After all as they mention in this site the Greeks were who used
the name Spania = the infrequent, and that due to the wealth of
Spain in gold, silver, pewter etc.
BTW i know sources like those you mention.
http://www.planetc.com/users/derwyddon/spanish.html#Top
Part 4: Greek Conquest
As the Greeks established Mediterranean mercantile, they brought the grape
and the olive to Spain. They founded schools and academies and were highly
influential in the improvement of Iberian ceramics. The Greeks called the
peninsula either "Hesperia" or "Iberia", meaning the country of the Iberians
and it is derived from the root "ib" which means river. They also used the
name "Spania" which was later changed to "Hispania" by the Romans. It is
believed that the name "Spania" comes from the Celtic word "span" which has
the same root as the English word "span" which indicated the palm of the
hand. The central meseta of the peninsula is shaped like the palm of a
hand. The bull was also important to the Greeks. According to them, Zeus
took the form of a bull in order to seduce Europa and she gave birth to
Minas, the mythical king of Crete. It was his wife, Persiphae, who gave
birth to the Minotaur. Testing oneself against the bull was a supreme test
of manhood to the Cretan bull cult.
>Inger E Johansson <inger_e....@telia.com>wrote
>
>Voyager,
>I second your opinion visavi the Greeks as the "name-giver" of Spain, thus
>is the same conclusion I have arrived at after studying written sources
from
>475 BD - 1400 AD, especially when I have read documentations of older Sea
>Trade routes from the inner Mediterranean out in the Atlantic and up to
>Albion(England), Eire and the Northern Countries. One question, are you
>contrary to me familiar with classic Greek? Is it from that knowledge you
>arrive at your conclusions?
>
>Inger E
"Voyager" <ji...@dmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:9rknos$qov$1...@usenet.otenet.gr...
>
Voyager
Another funny version.
Why don't you just read the whole text of the site you posted ?
There you can read that Greeks used to call that area Spania not Celts
or others.
Which way can a name of a country to come from the....palm
of the hand ????? !!!!!
This version is totally baseless and funny as well.
The Greeks named this country Spania = the infrequent land due to
the wealth they found there.
Ismael
> >>"Voyager" <ji...@dmail.com> escribió en el mensaje
> >>news:9rjkiq$4ug$1...@usenet.otenet.gr...
> >> You need to read some ancient history i'm afraid.
> >> Can't you see that the explanation you give "land of the raddits"
> > is completely fanny.
>
> : Ismael <is...@my-deja.com>wrote
> >"Land of the raddits"?????? Please read what others write, before making
> >advices about reading about any other question.
> >
>
> Yes land of raddits was what you wrote i have your original message
> below.
Yes? if you have it, read it:
> > I have always heard that "Spanija" is Carthaginian, and means "land of
> > rabbits", not this version :-)
> >
> > Ismael
No comment.
[...]
> Jesus Christ what are you saying ?????
> Rabbits exists in every single place for Christ sake and they are
> frequently a problem for the agriculture ALL over the world.
> Why you insist on this and sound funny ???
First, I don't insist on this. Perhaps I haven't read too much about
ancient history, but I have read enough to know any affirmation about
etymology is at least controversial, and to not to defend anyone as
"the truth".
And, about this concrete question, I know now two possibilities:
- The one 40 millions people have learned in school, and I have seen
reflected in every book who cares about the question.
- The one a guy of Usenet, who calls himself "Voyager" says it is "the
truth"
Which one do you think I should believe as more plausible?
Ismael
Ismael
news:3BDE7CAA...@online.no...
> WolfWolf wrote:
> >
> > The Carthaginian origin of the name "Spanija" and the meaning of "land
of
> > rabbits" is true.
>
> There seems to be a variety of opinion on this topic:
Agreed. Ask for the origin of any ancient name, and you are going to find
several different versions. This is the reason I dont trust anyone who
affirms his particular version is "the truth".
> http://www.planetc.com/users/derwyddon/spanish.html
>
> "It is believed that the name "Spania" comes from the Celtic word
> "span" which has the same root as the English word "span" which
> indicated the palm of the hand. The central meseta of the peninsula
> is shaped like the palm of a hand."
Well, I find a problem with this version: the Greek explorers settled
themselves in the eastern coast of Spain (Saguntum, Rosas ... Barcelone?),
which is far from being flat ... and Celts lived in the Western half of the
country, while the area visited by Greeks was inhabited by Iberian peoples
(Greeks are supposed to have given them the name "Iberian"). I find more
plausible that they adopted the name from Phoenicians-Carthaginians, or even
who they invented it (even if yesterday it was the first time I heard the
second version). But ... who knows?
Well, to defend a bit the "rabbit theory" (I was the first one who mentioned
it, wasn't I? :-) , from http://www.ekac.org/gfpbunny.html
"Phoenicians seafarers discovered rabbits on the Iberian Peninsula around
1100 BC and, thinking that these were Hyraxes (also called Rock Dassies),
called the land "i-shepan-im" (land of the Hyraxes). Since the Iberian
Peninsula is north of Africa, relative geographic position suggests that
another Punic derivation comes from sphan, "north". As the Romans adapted
"i-shepan-im" to Latin, the word Hispania was created -- one of the
etymological origins of Spain. In his book III the Roman geographer Strabo
(ca. 64 BC - AD 21) called Spain "the land of rabbits". Later on, the Roman
emperor Servius Sulpicius Galba (5 BC - AD 69), whose reign was short-lived
(68-69 AD), issued a coin on which Spain is represented with a rabbit at her
feet. "
Regards
Ismael
Tore Lund
>
> >>WolfWolf wrote:
> >>
> >> The Carthaginian origin of the name "Spanija" and the meaning of "land of
> >> rabbits" is true.
> >
> >There seems to be a variety of opinion on this topic:
> > http://www.planetc.com/users/derwyddon/spanish.html
> > "It is believed that the name "Spania" comes from the Celtic word
> > "span" which has the same root as the English word "span" which
> > indicated the palm of the hand. The central meseta of the peninsula
> > is shaped like the palm of a hand."
> >
> >So who is speaking off the top of his/her head?
> >--
> >Tore
>
> Another funny version.
> Why don't you just read the whole text of the site you posted ?
Why don't YOU read it? There is nothing there to support your idea.
> There you can read that Greeks used to call that area Spania not Celts
> or others.
> Which way can a name of a country to come from the....palm
> of the hand ????? !!!!!
> This version is totally baseless and funny as well.
So provide us with a reference to some authority or ancient document
which supports your version.
--
Tore
Tore Lund
>
> Well, to defend a bit the "rabbit theory" [snip]
The "rabbit theory" does seem the most likely one, at any rate if the
pages reached through Google are anything to go by. It is certainly
more credibly than saying that "Spania" is Greek just because there is a
similar Greek word.
Come to think of it, the root <span> occurs in Norwegian dialects in
words having to do with tension or excitement. Sheer logic forces us to
conclude that ancient mariners from the north called the land "Spania"
because it was such an exciting place. :-)
--
Tore
Ismael
> Jesus Christ what are you saying ?????
> Rabbits exists in every single place for Christ sake and they are
> frequently a problem for the agriculture ALL over the world.
From http://www.rogerwilliamsparkzoo.org/what_to_see/australasia/australasia_euro_rabbit.htm
European Rabbit
Oryctolagus curriculus
Order: lagomorpha; Family: leporidae
Range: Native to Iberian Peninsula and North Africa. Humans introduced
these rabbits to the rest of Europe about 2000 years ago. Much more
recently, they were introduced to the New World, Australia and New
Zealand. In Australia and New Zealand these rabbits encountered no
natural predators. With no natural control on their population, their
numbers quickly expanded to pest proportions.
And from http://www.geobop.com/mammals/Lagomorpha/Leporidae/2.htm
Eurasian Rabbits
• European rabbit, domestic rabbit (Oryctolagus cuniculus) This
species is native to the Iberian Peninsula (Spain & Portugal) and
northwestern Africa, but has been introduced around the world. Unlike
other leporids, it often digs complex burrows, or
“warrens.” A colony of 407 animals maintained a den with
2,080 entrances!
• bristly rabbit or hispid “hare” (Caprolagus
hispidus) southern Himalayan foothills; endangered
• Sumatra short-eared rabbit (Nesolagus netscheri)
• Ryukyu rabbit (Pentalagus furnessi) the small islands of Anami
Oshima and Toku-no-Oshima in the Ryukyus south of Japan; endangered
Ismael
Ismael
Voyager
the truth.
BTW are you a Catalan of Arabic origin or just a muslim Catalan.
I'm asking that because of your name.
Voyager
>Ismael <is...@my-deja.com>wrote
Voyager
You are on the way to make your self a joke posting
such sites.
Voyager
call this place Spania not the Celts not any other.
Now trying to convince me that a country can get it's name
from the palm of the hand it's at least funny.
I will provide more details on this soon just give me sometime.
There's so many reports of Greek travelers and settlers in Spain.
Spain was indeed and infrequent land since it was a very rich
land. How can't you see the obvious. ???
After all only the Greeks had the cultural and business level at
those times to name a country and Greeks had Spain under
control until the invasion of the Carhidonians.
Voyager
>Tore Lund <tl...@online.no>wrote
Voyager
Even today in the city of Elche (ancient Greek city Helike)
there's some local people who claims that they are
descendants of the Greeks and they used every year at
the first week of August to organize the Greek week, playing
ancient dramas selling various products etc.
Their name is Pobladores Griegos de Elche.
Voyager
>Ismael <is...@my-deja.com>wrote
Voyager
>>
>> Well, to defend a bit the "rabbit theory" [snip]
>
>The "rabbit theory" does seem the most likely one, at any rate if the
>pages reached through Google are anything to go by. It is certainly
>more credibly than saying that "Spania" is Greek just because there is a
>similar Greek word.
>
sence.
>Come to think of it, the root <span> occurs in Norwegian dialects in
>words having to do with tension or excitement. Sheer logic forces us to
>conclude that ancient mariners from the north called the land "Spania"
>because it was such an exciting place. :-)
--
In fact rich land not exciting.
Tore
Inger E Johansson
what about looking into the Irish tales for confirmation re. the contacts
between the Celts and the Greeks(+ the Egyptians) in the Spanish-Portugusean
area..... the contacts are mentioned...
Inger E
"Voyager" <ji...@dmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:9rnl3m$hf6$1...@usenet.otenet.gr...
Ismael
> BTW are you a Catalan of Arabic origin or just a muslim Catalan.
> I'm asking that because of your name.
If you really want to know it, none of them.
Ismael
Ismael
> The Greek ancient cities in Spain are much more.
Of course: Alicante, Ampurias, Guardamar, Hemeroskopeion (near the
present Denia) ... I only mentioned a couple of examples.
But all of them in the eastern coast ...
> Even today in the city of Elche (ancient Greek city Helike)
> there's some local people who claims that they are
> descendants of the Greeks and they used every year at
> the first week of August to organize the Greek week, playing
> ancient dramas selling various products etc.
Actually, the day of the "Fiesta de Pobladores" is usually July 28th.
Of course, the festivities, including a Greek market, as you say, and
a representation of the discovery of the "Lady of Elche" on August 4th
(*) last until the first days of August, and link with the Moors &
Christians celebrations, commemorating the Christian Reconquest of the
city in 13th century.
(*) La Dama de Elche (lady of Elche) is perhaps the most famous
Iberian sculpture (with evident Greek influence), discovered in August
4th, 1897, near Elche (you may see it, for example, in
http://rt001942.eresmas.net/)
Ismael
Ismael
news:9rocs0$v43ee$1...@ID-80357.news.dfncis.de...
Ah! and not Catalan, no more.
Ismael
Voyager
news:<9rnlr7$hk5$1...@usenet.otenet.gr>...
> The Greek ancient cities in Spain are much more.
Ismael <is...@my-deja.com>wrote
Of course: Alicante, Ampurias, Guardamar, Hemeroskopeion (near the
present Denia) ... I only mentioned a couple of examples.
But all of them in the eastern coast ...
Voyager
Also Mainaki (Malaca) Zacundo (Zacantha) Tartissos etc.
As i mention in a previous post there's evidence that Greeks
settled in Spain already from the Creto-Mycanaec period.
Isn't the most credible theory that the Iberians settled in Spain
coming from the eastern Mediterranean, and that the name of
the capital of Portugal comes from Ulysses - Odysseus.Ulissipon?
The Greek mythology in the contests of Hercules and also the
Odyssey of Homer provides very good indications.
> Even today in the city of Elche (ancient Greek city Helike)
> there's some local people who claims that they are
> descendants of the Greeks and they used every year at
> the first week of August to organize the Greek week, playing
> ancient dramas selling various products etc.
Ismael <is...@my-deja.com>wrote
Actually, the day of the "Fiesta de Pobladores" is usually July 28th.
Of course, the festivities, including a Greek market, as you say, and
a representation of the discovery of the "Lady of Elche" on August 4th
(*) last until the first days of August, and link with the Moors &
Christians celebrations, commemorating the Christian Reconquest of the
city in 13th century.
Voyager
According to a book i have this festival last for a week.
Except the Greek marked they use to play ancient dramas also and more.
BTW about 10 days ago archeologists found in the north-western
Peloponissos in Greece the ruins of the mother town of Elche (Helike)
were colonists from it created Elche (Helike) in Spain in the antiquity.
Ismael <is...@my-deja.com>wrote
(*) La Dama de Elche (lady of Elche) is perhaps the most famous
Iberian sculpture (with evident Greek influence), discovered in August
4th, 1897, near Elche (you may see it, for example, in
http://rt001942.eresmas.net/)
Ismael
Voyager
Yes i know this statue. It's beuitifull.
Voyager
>>news:9rnke5$hbn$1...@usenet.otenet.gr...
>> BTW are you a Catalan of Arabic origin or just a muslim Catalan.
> I'm asking that because of your name.
Ismael <is...@my-deja.com>wrote
>If you really want to know it, none of them.
>Ismael
So what are you?
Voyager
I would like you to give me some please.
Voyager
>Inger E Johansson <inger_e....@telia.com>wrote
>
Ismael
news:9rrrgm$6cf$1...@usenet.otenet.gr...
> "Voyager" <ji...@dmail.com> wrote in message
> news:<9rnlr7$hk5$1...@usenet.otenet.gr>...
> > The Greek ancient cities in Spain are much more.
>
> Ismael <is...@my-deja.com>wrote
> Of course: Alicante, Ampurias, Guardamar, Hemeroskopeion (near the
> present Denia) ... I only mentioned a couple of examples.
> But all of them in the eastern coast ...
>
> Voyager
> Also Mainaki (Malaca)
The position of the Greek colony of Mainake is not know. It is true that
archeologists looked for it near Malaga, in 1962, but they found, instead, a
Phoenician colony. Others (Schulten, for example) have tried to look for it
in Huelva, near the place Tartessos should have been. Around 2,000 fragments
of Greek artifacts have been found there (mainly in the 80's), which proof
an intense trade with Greeks, but, until the present day, there is not
evidence of permanent posts in any of the places.
> Zacundo (Zacantha) Tartissos etc.
> As i mention in a previous post there's evidence that Greeks
> settled in Spain already from the Creto-Mycanaec period.
> Isn't the most credible theory that the Iberians settled in Spain
> coming from the eastern Mediterranean, and that the name of
> the capital of Portugal comes from Ulysses - Odysseus.Ulissipon?
> The Greek mythology in the contests of Hercules and also the
> Odyssey of Homer provides very good indications.
Tartessos is supposed to be an Iberian civilization. It is mentioned by the
first time in the Bible (Tarsis). Herodotus mentions its "discovery" by
Kolaios of Samos, who spoke his countrymen about its wealth, starting the
trade between Greece and Tartessos. He also mentioned the Arganhtonios
(Silver Man?) who offered refugee to Greeks escaping from the Perses. Strabo
affirmed Tartessos was 6,000 years-old at his time (a bit exaggerated, I
guess). Finally, yes, the king Geryon of the contests of Hercules has been
identified sometimes with a king of Tartessos.
Its origin? Well, linguists have tried to relate its language with Etruria,
Crete, the North of Africa .... The most defended one (here) is the
North-African (Berber), I guess.
Ismael