Will Modern Greece ever rise from its ashes?
Heretic
(http://groups.google.com.gr/group/soc.culture.greek/browse_thread/thread/27
41dfd1a365e2da/d2e6efe308e64b0f?lnk=raot&hl=el#d2e6efe308e64b0f) Erolz
wrote:
>Clearly modern Greeks can not claim to have made or make the same volume or
>quality of contributions to civilisations (in science, the arts etc etc)
>that their forebears made relative to 'other peoples' of their period. The
>questions is why? The question is aimed principally at Greeks for I wish to
>try and understand a Greek perspective on this 'why'.
And:
>My belief is that many / most groups (peoples) go through 'golden ages'
when
>there is a nexus of forces and conditions that leads to 'remarkable'
>advances in science, arts and culture and contributions to 'civilisations'.
>In effect a kind of 'group version' of being the right people in the right
>place at the right time. To me for Greeks this 'nexus' was thousands of
>years ago. I am of the opinion that even if modern Greeks were less
>'distracted' they would not automatically return to this 'golden period' as
>the factors that led to it in ancient times are no longer there. This is
not
>to say a groups cannot achieve a new 'golden age' though imo groups that
>dwell and over emphasis and misinterpret the hows and why of their former
>golden ages are unlikely to do so.
Obviously the Modern Greek civilization is radically different from the
ancient one.
According to a view that I personally adopt, Civilization incorporates the
dynamic of the expression of political practice, of the formulation of
philosophical thought and of the cultivation of theological perception.
These 3 components determine the qualitative and quantitative manifestation
of civilization. This manifestation is presented, described, by history and
is analyzed by philosophy.
Early societies codify in ideologies the empirical and later cognitive (as
the laws of nature start to evolve) data gathered by their interaction with
the environment. This empirical and cognitive process formulates the
Politismic (civilization -al) physiognomy of the developing society.
The Society (joining) of the Natural and the Human creates the Political.
Humans need to survive and adapt to their environment and create functional
societies, settlements to villages to cities, to achieve it. This is the
Political element (man is a political being according to Aristotle). Next
this is systematized and formulated into a Politeia (republic), a political
administration and an expression of political speech.
And how does religion fit into all that? According to the philosopher
Euimeros (3rd to 4th century BCE), religion is formulated from a) the
apotheosis of natural forces (ouranioi or celestial gods) and b) the
apotheosis of historical figures, warriors, philosophers, rulers,
distinguished for their Areti (virtue) and beneficence (epigeioi or earth
gods). The worship of ancestors becomes religion. Or rather their didaches
(teachings, traditions, warnings), the accumulated knowledge of the society
becomes its religion. So the ideology stemming from the Political, that is
the Society of the Human and the Natural, is codified into the Theological
(religion) in order to be passed on in the best possible way to the next
generations. That is why Plato insisted that atheism should not be allowed
to exist, and all who rejected the city gods should be punished by death.
Then came Christianity.
It didn't take long for the educated East Roman Emperors to grasp the real
(but covert) meanings of this new religion, which had conveniently
metamorphosed from a revolutionary, almost communistic ideology to an
instrument of autocratic rule (but this is a very long and complicated
discussion out of the scope of this post). From then on things were clear
enough; the old religion had to go, and for good.
The East Roman Emperors had no desire to have critically thinking,
ever-disputing Greeks as subjects (always bad to associate these two ;-), so
they decided to create good, god-fearing, Christian Roman subjects -
Romious, instead.
And they had a good recipe for this; everything that reminded of the old
glory would be torn down.Temples, carrying the natural religion (and most
knowledge since most of them had been converted to libraries and hospitals
by this time), were the first to go. Universities were next. The great
philosophical schools were closed and/or destroyed, books were burned
philosophers were driven away or killed. Hospitals, theaters, gymnasiums
(gyms) and athletic games, artisan workshops (musicians, painters, sculptors
etc), baths (Christians were notorious for their dislike of bath or changing
clothes more often than biannually for that matter ;-) and almost any other
aspect of civilization soon followed.
Soon after, history was replaced with the study of the biblical tales. The
ancestral figures were dismissed as pagans or eidololaters, poor chaps
"misguided" by "daemons" posing as gods (a word ironically meaning wise, as
in eidimon). Abraham and Isaac and their holy example (.here this is my
sister, oops I mean my wife, oops I mean my sister ;-) became our new
forefathers. Philosophy was downgraded to cheap theology. Politeia was
replaced by theocratia (democracy was called a Civitas Diaboli by the
"Christian "fathers"). Almost all the elements that constituted the old
civilization were abolished.
Subsequently even the name Hellene became prohibited, punished by
confiscation of assets, exile and even death. Hellenes were the bad old
people (palianthropos in Greek, scoundrel, actually comes from old -long
ago- people!). Those who resisted paid with their lives, here are a few
examples:
-There is a small church in Sparta, of Nikon o Metanoeitai! Locals still
worship him today, having absolutely no idea that he was truly an Armenian
general send to convert Spartans by force, ending up killing hundreds of
thousands of them!
-The bust of Nikiforos Fokas, who killed tens of thousands of Cretans who
wouldn't repent, still stands proud in the central square of Irakleion.
People today know little or nothing about the actual stories behind great
ecclesiastical figures such as Modestos, Paulos Tartareus, Fistos, Maternos
Kinigios, "saint" Markellos, Theofilos, bishop Nikitas, "saint" Porfurios,
"saint" Epifanios, "saint" Eutixios, "saint" Augoustinos, "saint" Kirilos,
monk Hypatios, converter Conon and others. Just look them up and you will
see what I mean.
In the end that Greek civilization could not endure any more and ceased to
exist. In a thousand years not one line of script was created in the East
Roman Empire that was worth the paper it was written on. This may sound
exaggerated, but who can name a praiseworthy poet, philosopher, artist or
great politician from that era? We were never conquered by the barbarian
tribes as in the west, as many like to bolster about, but by something much
worst. The Anatolian mentality finally took its revenge on Western thought.
As the centuries passed the church gradually usurped most of the power from
the emperors. Then, after the first Alosis (the capture of Constantinople by
the westerners) the weakening of the central power allowed for some sparks
of Greek knowledge to bring a small enlightenment (see Plithon Gemistos).
The terrified priesthood reacted the only way it knew, by aphorism and
persecution.
Two more centuries passed, when church saw a golden opportunity. And she
grasped it by teeth and claws. The patriarch would finally wear the imperial
crown. It would be handed to him by the Great Sultan. By surrendering
Byzantium to the Turks, the church flourished. The ottoman era allowed her
to seize all power over Christian population and extent the dark ages for
another 4 centuries.
And this would still be the case today if it wasn't for the Greek merchants
and a conjuncture of circumstances (the Turkish-Russian treaty of Kiuchuk
Kainartzi - sorry I don't know how to spell it in English), which allowed
them to come into contact with the western enlightenment and decide it was
time for Greeks (or at least the idealized Greeks they had in mind) to gain
their independence. The church resisted as much as it could but a century
later Greece was finally an independent state (or something close to it
anyways ;-).
The church would not let loose of this New Greek state so easily (or not
without a fight anyway). Showing amazing flexibility it quickly adapted to
the new circumstances. The new official line would come to be Hellas
Hellinon Christianon (Greece of Greek Christians). Who cares about truth,
winners write history (or do they!). Just serve an aphorism at whoever says
otherwise and keep a good hold over education. The result Greece is today
the only European nation with a Ministry of Education and Religion! And that
alone says a lot!
So is everything lost?
It is very true that qualitatively and quantitatively the manifestation of
Modern Greek civilization is rather poor. Following the definitions given at
the beginning, this civilization indeed has to exhibit an extremely poor
political practice, almost no original and unique philosophical thought at
all, and totally unnatural and harmful theological perceptions, expressed in
a religion coined up only to serve the autocratic rule of emperors and
patriarchs alike. I guess 14 centuries of brainwashing would do that to a
people.
But is there nothing left? Well I don't know much about genetics, Haplotypes
and such, or the influence they exert on civilization formation. They may
play a role or they may not. But I know that we have some other things in
common.
First we can relate to them because we live in the same environment. Every
Greek can grasp the reason why city states emerged instead of a massive
unified kingdom. Regionalism is important for Greeks today as it was at
those times. And this feedbacks straight into notions like personal freedom,
independence, self-determination, self-sufficiency, etc. Every Greek can
also understand the paramount role of the sea; we live with the sea and by
the sea; no Greek city is further than 100 kilometers away from the sea. We
are as close to the definition of sea people as possible. Every Greek psyche
is programmed by our climate; we have set our biological clocks with it for
thousands of years. And every Greek understands what it is to live in a
piece of land that is more or less constantly under the designs of others.
As long as we have been living here we had to fight to keep others from
invading in. A simple list of them would take pages.
That is why History means so much more to Greeks than to other people, now
that we are allowed to have it we relish in it.
Second and more important is the Greek language. It was the church's
greatest mistake to keep it alive. Most people understand how much of a
civilization's heart and soul goes into its language. And the richness and
comprehensiveness of the Greek language is simply breathtaking. It is like
reading the collective unconsciousness of Greek people spanning the
millennia. I realize I'm getting overdramatic here but you have to know
Greek in order to understand what I'm talking about. And I mean to know
Greek not just words, syntax and grammar. I'm only taking my first glimpses
of it and I am amazed by it.
The ancient Greeks used to say: "Arxi sofias h ton onomaton episkepsis (the
beginning of wisdom is the visitation of names). Small phrases like: Ouden
Agan (nothing in excess), Gnothi s'Auton (know thyself) are made up of just
2-3 words. But they manage to carry so much wisdom that they alone are
enough to draw an extensive analysis of the civilization that coined them
up.
So in my opinion everything is not lost. The Ancient Greek civilization may
be lost forever, but Greeks are still here. And as they "preached" to us
repeatedly and repeatedly in school, and on the verge of becoming cliche,
Paideia (=education, cultivation, cognitive assimilation of experience and
many more) is the solution to everything.
Weenie Beanie Tinfoil ®™
Part Serb part Albanian part Turk part Kurd part Bulgar part Vlach etc
etc etc
In short MONGRELS thieving someone elses ancient history
Matt Giwer
a run for its money so the answer is no.
Greece was a one time thing back when there wasn't much competition and they acknoweldged a great
debt to Egypt for what they did achieve. The ancients were more humble than their modern protagonists.
We give them all kinds of credit for being the foundation of western civilization but prior to
about 300 years ago (maybe 200) the ancient Greeks would have been denied culpability and sued for
libel.
For some 1500 years Greece was eclipsed first by Rome and then the cesspool of christian Europe and
only after recovering Greek thought from Islam did a few parts of Italy start paying attention some
500 years ago.
Although the superstitions of Christianity could not be distinguished from that of Greece and Rome
the loss of principles of law and melding of church and state lead to a certain disaster for
civilization. Religious duty replaced civic duty.
--
10 August 2005: US death rate in Iraq is 4.4 per day.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3499
nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
Larry Shiff http://www.giwersworld.org/computers/newsagent.phtml a8
Weenie Beanie Tinfoil ®™
Yo Matt
Chek ma wikid rhymes Dawg
MastaKriss ? *LOL* Who the fuk is forkin This ?
You, stink muthafuka.....you reek o' fucken PISS
Sittin there poppin shit.... like that and like this
Keyboard Rambo, "Mambo" forkin Jambo
Suck *THIS* MastaKriss
Who the fork you tryin ta diss ?
You spit lame rhymes like a bitchslapped forkin FREAK
When you can hardly forkin SPEAK you dumbassed forkin GREEK
I'll PWN yo ass all over town, EVERY DAY of the forkin WEEK
Shut you bitch mouth up you Weak Geek son of a muthafockin Meek Greek
Freak
Yo outlook is BLEAK
You aint gettin none of that Turkish COCK you forkin SEEK
So next time I hear yo pansy ass forkin SQUEAK
I'm a shut you the fork up, you SLEEK assed forkin SNEAK
Agamemnon
"Matt Giwer" <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4334FD1E...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com...
> Without even bothering with the details, there are not enough Greeks to
> give the rest of the world a run for its money so the answer is no.
>
> Greece was a one time thing back when there wasn't much competition and
> they acknoweldged a great debt to Egypt for what they did achieve. The
> ancients were more humble than their modern protagonists.
>
> We give them all kinds of credit for being the foundation of western
> civilization but prior to about 300 years ago (maybe 200) the ancient
> Greeks would have been denied culpability and sued for libel.
Ancient Greeks 300 years ago ? You must be joking.
>
> For some 1500 years Greece was eclipsed first by Rome and then the
> cesspool of christian Europe and only after recovering Greek thought from
> Islam did a few parts of Italy start paying attention some 500 years ago.
NONSENSE. The Byzantine Empire was Greek and Greek thought was recovered by
western Europe when tens of thousands of Greek ships filled with books fled
the barbarise Turkish savagery and mass genocide in Constantinople.
> Although the superstitions of Christianity could not be distinguished from
> that of Greece and Rome the loss of principles of law and melding of
> church and state lead to a certain disaster for civilization. Religious
> duty replaced civic duty.
You are of course taking about the Roman Catholic church betraying Byzantium
to the Turks.
Big Butch Floppie Bwoy
You're full of shit Argyrou
And we all know it EXCEPT you
Greeks and Turks alike laugh at you
*LOL*
Heretic
> Without even bothering with the details,
I know it's a big text, but I would appreciate it if you could take the time
and read it before sharing your opinions.
> there are not enough Greeks to give the rest of the world a run for its
money so the
> answer is no.
What have numbers got to do with civilization? Are the Chinese today the
greatest cultural producers? Is the rest of the world turning Chinese and I
didn't notice? Last I saw the Chinese were getting westernized (adopting
ideas like democracy, equality, freedom even at a slow pace) as much as the
rest of the world.
Also, was Ancient Greece's civilization greatness based on population
numbers? I thought that Greece was a small, poor, weak nation (nation not in
the modern sense) in relation to the rest of the world powers. But can you
name a great Egyptian or Persian philosopher? A significant Israeli or Celt
dramaturges?
> We give them all kinds of credit for being the foundation of western
civilization but
> prior to about 300 years ago (maybe 200) the ancient Greeks would have
been denied
> culpability and sued for libel.
So what if European thought 300 (probably 400-500) years ago wouldn't
recognize this fact. Does it mean that it's not true? You're bringing in the
opinion of an uncultured crowd of religious zealots as an argument to what?
> Although the superstitions of Christianity could not be distinguished from
that of
> Greece and Rome
Allow me to have a different opinion. Greek religion was far more advanced
than the superficial and artificial Christian dogma. All natural religions
are, as they are evolved in situ throughout the millennia.
People today have a picture of the Dodekatheon (twelve gods) when they think
of the ancient Greek religion, but in truth things are much more complex
(consider Orphism for example). Don't forget that this religion allowed the
birth of Democracy, Science and Philosophy.
> the loss of principles of law and melding of
> church and state lead to a certain disaster for civilization. Religious
> duty replaced civic duty.
I agree. This and much more destroyed probably the best civilization the
world has ever known.
Heretic
> NONSENSE. The Byzantine Empire was Greek and Greek thought was recovered
by
> western Europe
In what exactly was that consortium of christianized nations of the East
Roman Empire (much later falsely called Byzantium) Greek apart from
language?
Is a theocratic reign of fear enforced by impunitous
Emperors/patriarchs/eunuchs reminiscent to you of ancient Greek Politeia?
Is anachoreticism and idiotism relevant to Ecclesia of Demos and Simetoxi
sta Koina (participation in common matters)?
Is subservience and secretiveness relevant to Parrisia (candour,
outspokeveness, the virtue of saying your opinion even when you may be
punished for it)?
Is ecclesiastical pantomime equal to Greek Theater?
Are biblical studies equal to philosophy?
Is Pisteue kai mi ereuna (believe and do not question), Makarioi oi ptoxoi
to pneuma (blessed those who are poor in thought) equal to rational though,
doubt, and critical thinking?
> when tens of thousands of Greek ships filled with books fled
> the barbarise Turkish savagery and mass genocide in Constantinople.
These tens of thousands of Greek ships filled with books apparently sunk on
their way there, since today we have in our hands but a miniscule percentage
of the volume of the ancient Greek literature.
Apart from the great libraries, such as the great Library of Alexandria
supposedly burned by Caesar or Muslims (though both had no motive), books
were abundant throughout the Greek (or Greco-Roman) world. The finds at
Oxyrhynchus demonstrate this very well. Also the Greek temples of Aesclepios
(and not only them) sustained able libraries if only for therapeutic
purposes (therapy was done with music and reading in total harmony). Were
did all these books go?
Those books on velum that were not burned or otherwise destroyed (very few
indeed) were stored in the monasteries as writing material! (as velum was a
very expensive material). Letters were scrapped off the velum and then a
filthy (literally) monk had his chance to best the ancient writer with his
theological mambo jumbo. This was the fate of the dissertation of Archimedes
on infinitesimal calculus. A study that took 20 centuries to be
reformulated.
As for the genocide and savagery I totally agree, but you have to look
carefully at the role of the church in this. Didn't the Patriarch Genadios,
who preached about the end of Constantinople and the need to seek refuge to
the monasteries, remain in his throne after the Alosis?
Weenie Beanie Tinfoil ®™
MastaKriss ? *LOL* What's This ?
You, stink muthafuka.....you reek o' fucken PISS
Sittin there poppin shit.... like that and like this
Keyboard Rambo, "Mambo" forkin Jambo
Suck *THIS* MastaKriss
Who the fork you tryin ta diss ?
You spit lame rhymes like a bitchslapped forkin FREAK
When you can hardly forkin SPEAK you dumbassed forkin GREEK
I'll PWN yo ass all over town, EVERY DAY of the forkin WEEK
Shut you bitch mouth up you WEAK GEEK son of a muthafockin MEEK, GREEK
FREAK
Yo outlook is BLEAK
You bin gettin none of that Turkish COCK you forkin SEEK
So next time I hear yo pansy ass forkin SQUEAK
I'm a shut you the fucken fork up, you SLEEK assed forkin SNEAK
Matt Giwer
> "Matt Giwer" <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:4334FD1E...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com...
>> Without even bothering with the details, there are not enough Greeks
>> to give the rest of the world a run for its money so the answer is no.
>> Greece was a one time thing back when there wasn't much competition
>> and they acknoweldged a great debt to Egypt for what they did achieve.
>> The ancients were more humble than their modern protagonists.
>> We give them all kinds of credit for being the foundation of western
>> civilization but prior to about 300 years ago (maybe 200) the ancient
>> Greeks would have been denied culpability and sued for libel.
> Ancient Greeks 300 years ago ? You must be joking.
It wasn't meant literally. Would Plato want credit for disease ridden Europe in 1700? How about the
education system which was mainly religious with only a few teaching something more useful?
>> For some 1500 years Greece was eclipsed first by Rome and then the
>> cesspool of christian Europe and only after recovering Greek thought
>> from Islam did a few parts of Italy start paying attention some 500
>> years ago.
> NONSENSE. The Byzantine Empire was Greek and Greek thought was recovered
> by western Europe when tens of thousands of Greek ships filled with
> books fled the barbarise Turkish savagery and mass genocide in
> Constantinople.
True they were Greeks but did not do much with it. I am not aware of much new of interest that was
transported by them. They certainly did not much stand out from western Europe. Byzantium did not
add anything to the ancients I can think of. The Muslims took it and added to it. It was the added
parts, the practical applications that got the attention of a few Italians.
Consider they did something the Greeks and Romans never managed, discovered that abstract knowledge
could have practical applications. And in the process learned there was a way to discriminate
between correct and incorrect knowledge.
>> Although the superstitions of Christianity could not be distinguished
>> from that of Greece and Rome the loss of principles of law and melding
>> of church and state lead to a certain disaster for civilization.
>> Religious duty replaced civic duty.
> You are of course taking about the Roman Catholic church betraying
> Byzantium to the Turks.
Not the history I heard. Rather the locals got some passing Crusaders involved in their fight and
when they didn't pay the Crusaders sacked Constintinople weakening it so it could not hold off the
Turkomans.
Besides they were the wrong color of Catholicism and it took years to get a crusade organized.
--
July 2005
Each week Iraq costs America 15 dead, 120 wounded and $2 billion.
A week costs Iraqis at least 15 times as many dead and wounded.
Americans cannot stop it. Iraqis cannot stop it.
Americans do not want it. Iraqis do not want it.
Who wants it? Why is it happening? Why is no one answering?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3487
nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
antisemitism http://www.giwersworld.org/antisem/ a1
Matt Giwer
> Matt Giwer wrote:
>>Without even bothering with the details,
> I know it's a big text, but I would appreciate it if you could take the time
> and read it before sharing your opinions.
>>there are not enough Greeks to give the rest of the world a run for its money so the
>>answer is no.
> What have numbers got to do with civilization? Are the Chinese today the
> greatest cultural producers? Is the rest of the world turning Chinese and I
> didn't notice? Last I saw the Chinese were getting westernized (adopting
> ideas like democracy, equality, freedom even at a slow pace) as much as the
> rest of the world.
Once the Chinese get a reasonable fraction of their population properly educated they will be.
Today's Greeks are about as educated as they are ever going to be, percentagewise and by degree
level. So the absolute number of Greeks simply cannot outnumber the other nationalities. If everyone
in Lichtenstein were a genius, the US would still have more geniuses because of the larger population.
> Also, was Ancient Greece's civilization greatness based on population
> numbers? I thought that Greece was a small, poor, weak nation (nation not in
> the modern sense) in relation to the rest of the world powers. But can you
> name a great Egyptian or Persian philosopher? A significant Israeli or Celt
> dramaturges?
As I said the Greeks gave credit to the Egyptians so whether I can name them or not the Greeks said
they existed. I am not familiar with Persia but one assumes a Persian could name a few. Somehow they
managed to rule from Persia all the way to the Greek Peninsula and into Egypt. Would we think they
were much today? Doubt it but the Greeks did in their time.
I don't think much of the Greek philosophers in today's terms. They got a few things started but it
never went anywhere and they never developed any methods for deciding between philosophies. And
because of that avoided inventing science and engineering. They developed the mindless intellectual
exercise of inventing consistent new philosophies instead.
>>We give them all kinds of credit for being the foundation of western civilization but
>>prior to about 300 years ago (maybe 200) the ancient Greeks would have been denied
>>culpability and sued for libel.
> So what if European thought 300 (probably 400-500) years ago wouldn't
> recognize this fact. Does it mean that it's not true? You're bringing in the
> opinion of an uncultured crowd of religious zealots as an argument to what?
I meant the Greeks would not have liked being given credit until then. They had clean cities,
baths, jumped on the idea of running water as soon as it was possible, had civic duty as a common
ideal, they were not killing each over religious differences. Their architecture was still overall
better. Their poetry, literature and art were still the standard in Europe that long ago. How long a
list do you want?
>>Although the superstitions of Christianity could not be distinguished from that of
>>Greece and Rome
> Allow me to have a different opinion. Greek religion was far more advanced
> than the superficial and artificial Christian dogma. All natural religions
> are, as they are evolved in situ throughout the millennia.
> People today have a picture of the Dodekatheon (twelve gods) when they think
> of the ancient Greek religion, but in truth things are much more complex
> (consider Orphism for example). Don't forget that this religion allowed the
> birth of Democracy, Science and Philosophy.
I meant to point out that essentially all worship practices are borrowed and with some suggestion
even baptism was. The basic idea of the commununal meal as worship, that people who eat and drink
together become friends, has been replaced with a completely divorced symbolic version. Christian
theology is based upon Plato/Socrates.
>>the loss of principles of law and melding of
>>church and state lead to a certain disaster for civilization. Religious
>>duty replaced civic duty.
> I agree. This and much more destroyed probably the best civilization the
> world has ever known.
To do a 20 degree turn rather than a 180, the Greeks were not much of a civilization. Most of their
products were sporadic bursts from different cities which were independent until Alexander's father.
Alexander mostly put an end to the Persian threat having allies every place he fought perhaps
accounting for his respect for all local gods and customs else not gain allies.
So best civilization is not quite a reasonable description.
Perhaps it was like Islam. When both overthrowing the old order and being exposed to new ideas they
went wild. Something did happen in the Hellene world but just what isn't quite clear and then an
apparent serious exposure to Egypt beyond just trade. It has happened in modern times. When nation
states were invented for Europe, Jews became citizens and dove into civilization and learning with a
vengence for their first intellectual flowering in history.
The Greeks set benchmarks in many areas and most of them stood until a few centuries ago. We
remember Athens for its period of democracy but not for the other cities which were still kingdoms.
We remember Plato/Socrates for philosophy but not the rest as more than curiosities. You have to be
rich to be an epicurean and equally rich to choose to be a stoic rather than have it as the way life
is.
They did a lot of things in different cities over centuries but their mark on the world directly
because of their efforts was minimal.
--
According to Bush America is attacked not for its faults
but for its virtues. The main virtue is Iraq as seen by
Iraqis. The main fault is Iraq as seen by Iraqis.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3497
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June R Harton
"Heretic" <her...@anti.com> wrote in message
news:dh223r$1l40$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr...
http://www.freewebs.com/carthia/quotes.htm
Spirit
Weenie Beanie Tinfoil ®™
Hey Ms Hardon
The only accurate statement on that propaganda freebiehost page is this
"Greek Anthropology and Culture - Under Construction "
Agamemnon
TOTAL BULLSHIT
Everything the Arabs had was second hand knowledge. The Byzantines had it
first and the Arabs were acting as intermediaries. There was no renaissance
coming from what the Arabs added to Greek knowledge. The Byzantine's added
more and it was when that came to the west in thousands of ships fleeing the
Turkish massacres in Constantinople that the renaissance began.
>
> Consider they did something the Greeks and Romans never managed,
> discovered that abstract knowledge could have practical applications. And
> in the process learned there was a way to discriminate between correct and
> incorrect knowledge.
The Arabs didn't put anything to practical applications that wasn't already
invented by the Greeks. Earlier this year the BBC ran a series called What
The Ancients Did For Us and everything they claimed camp from the Arabs has
already been invented by the Greeks and Romans a thousand years earlier. The
big giveaway was that all of the names for these inventions were pure Greek
and it was laughable that the presenter was and saying and so out name for
this and that come from the Arab word so and so, which everyone knows
perfectly well was actually ancient Greek.
>
>>> Although the superstitions of Christianity could not be distinguished
>>> from that of Greece and Rome the loss of principles of law and melding
>>> of church and state lead to a certain disaster for civilization.
>>> Religious duty replaced civic duty.
>
>> You are of course taking about the Roman Catholic church betraying
>> Byzantium to the Turks.
>
> Not the history I heard. Rather the locals got some passing Crusaders
> involved in their fight and when they didn't pay the Crusaders sacked
> Constintinople weakening it so it could not hold off the Turkomans.
MORE BULLSHIT.
It was the plan of the Venitians all the long to sack Constantinople. They
demanded free passage to Palestine and when the Byzantine couldn't provide
it they crusaders sacked the city.
---
Weenie Beanie Tinfoil ®™
<snip fagamemnobs deluded racial supremacist crap>
POPPYCOCK !
Agamemnon
"June R Harton" <JUNEH...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:K8uZe.1$Hq...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "Heretic" <her...@anti.com> wrote in message
> news:dh223r$1l40$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr...
>
>
> http://www.freewebs.com/carthia/quotes.htm
>
I think this should put an end to the question. First European Football
Champions, now European Basketball Champions. That's Europe's top two
sporting championships which Greece now hold. Oh and don't forget the Greek
victory in the Eurovision Song Contest and the Greek ballet dancer in the
Eurovision Young Dancer 2005 final.
Greece downs Germany in Eurobasket final
Associated Press
9/25/2005 5:12:20 PM
BELGRADE, Serbia-Montenegro (AP) - Greece won the European basketball
championship title for the second time Sunday when it beat Germany 78-62
behind 22 points by Theodoros Papaloukas.
The Greek defence frustrated Dirk Nowitzki, the tournament's MVP and top
scorer, who scored 23 points but went only 1-for-8 from the three-point
range. He had nine rebounds but also four turnovers.
Greece won its first title at home in 1987 and this time it must have felt
like playing at the Olympic Hall in Maroussi.
Seven planeloads of Greek fans arrived Sunday to join those already in the
Serbian capital and the full 20,000-seat Belgrade Arena was awash in
blue-and-white Greek colours.
After the final buzzer, the winners broke into a ''Zorba the Greek'' dance.
''It was a dream final for us, we showed a great team spirit and tonight I
don't think that any team in Europe could have beaten us,'' said Papaloukas,
whose team did not include any NBA players.
The game was decided in the third quarter when Greece went hot from
three-point range, making three straight at the start of the period, two of
them by Papaloukas.
When Papaloukas hit another with 1:53 left in the third, Greece had a
17-point lead and the game was all but over.
Nowitzki, who had carried Germany virtually single-handedly to the final,
left the game with 3:22 remaining to a standing ovation.
''We are happy with what we achieved. Greece was simply the better team,''
Nowitzki said.
When the Dallas Mavericks star was presented at the medal ceremony, the
crowd chanted his name and gave him another ovation. He finished the
tournament averaging 26.1 points.
Germany won its first medal since claiming the title at home in 1993.
''They were just a step quicker,'' said Germany coach Dirk Bauermann.
Centre Patrick Femerling added 11 points for Germany.
Greece made seven of 21 three-point attempts while Germany went 3-for-16.
Nikolaos Zisis had 13 points for Greece and Michail Kakiouzis added 11.
''We played our best game in the tournament. Now I am on top of Europe, not
as a player but as coach,'' said Greece coach Panagiotis Yannakis, who
played on the 1987 team.
Earlier, Tony Parker scored 25 points to lift France to a 98-68 victory over
Spain in the bronze-medal game, giving France its first medal at the
European championship since a silver in 1959.
Parker, the point guard for the NBA champion San Antonio Spurs, ran into the
stands after the game to celebrate with about two dozen singing French fans.
Mickael Pietrus of the Golden State Warriors added 23 points for France,
which dominated the boards, getting 41 rebounds compared to 25 for Spain.
Juan Carlos Navarro had 17 points for Spain.
>
>
> Spirit
>
>
Nestor
Ο/Η Matt Giwer έγραψε:
> Heretic wrote:
> > Matt Giwer wrote:
>
> >>Without even bothering with the details,
>
> > I know it's a big text, but I would appreciate it if you could take the time
> > and read it before sharing your opinions.
>
> >>there are not enough Greeks to give the rest of the world a run for its money so the
> >>answer is no.
>
> > What have numbers got to do with civilization? Are the Chinese today the
> > greatest cultural producers? Is the rest of the world turning Chinese and I
> > didn't notice? Last I saw the Chinese were getting westernized (adopting
> > ideas like democracy, equality, freedom even at a slow pace) as much as the
> > rest of the world.
>
> Once the Chinese get a reasonable fraction of their population properly educated they will be.
> Today's Greeks are about as educated as they are ever going to be, percentagewise and by degree
> level. So the absolute number of Greeks simply cannot outnumber the other nationalities. If everyone
> in Lichtenstein were a genius, the US would still have more geniuses because of the larger population.
>
American and you probably think that the "bigger" THE "BETTER", like
your awful cars when it comes to compare them with the European ones.
We are talking about CIVILIZATION, EDUCATION and MENTALITY you redneck!
Its not a matter of "percentage" or "quantity". Case closed, and if you
cannot understand it well its your problem. Get an education.
> > Also, was Ancient Greece's civilization greatness based on population
> > numbers? I thought that Greece was a small, poor, weak nation (nation not in
> > the modern sense) in relation to the rest of the world powers. But can you
> > name a great Egyptian or Persian philosopher? A significant Israeli or Celt
> > dramaturges?
>
> As I said the Greeks gave credit to the Egyptians
Refferences please?? What kind of "credit" did we ever give to the
Egyptians except of some common deities??
Proofs boyo, Proofs!
> so whether I can name them or not the Greeks said
> they existed.
Name a couple of them at least... Oups! I forgot, there were not any,
;-)
> I am not familiar with Persia
You are not familiar with anything regarding ancient history.Its clear.
> but one assumes a Persian could name a few.
Who? PROOFS! proofs boyo, Proofs!
> Somehow they
> managed to rule from Persia all the way to the Greek Peninsula and into Egypt. Would we think they
> were much today? Doubt it but the Greeks did in their time.
>
> I don't think much of the Greek philosophers in today's terms. They got a few things started but it
> never went anywhere and they never developed any methods for deciding between philosophies.
This shows how low your education is...You are a tupical american...you
don't know even where Greece is....
> And because of that avoided inventing science and engineering.
WHAT??? Archimedes, Thales and so many others!!GET AN EDUCATION YOU
IMBECILE REDNECK!!!!GHEEEEZ!!!What a LOAD OF BULLSHIT! Ti malakas eisai
re panilithie..
> They developed the mindless intellectual
> exercise of inventing consistent new philosophies instead.
>
No need to comment your retarded and moronic statements....Are you the
most clever redneck in your village??
:-))))))))))))))))))))))) Ti malakas eisai.
> >>We give them all kinds of credit for being the foundation of western civilization
The above line you wrote refutes what you wrote so far...You are
mentally insane, aren't you??
GET AN EDUCATION YOU IMBECILE!!
> Most of their
> products were sporadic bursts from different cities which were independent until Alexander's father.
GET AN EDUCATION YOU IMBECILE REDNECK!!!!!
> Alexander mostly put an end to the Persian threat having allies every place he fought perhaps
> accounting for his respect for all local gods and customs else not gain allies.
>
> So best civilization is not quite a reasonable description.
>
No it isn't. Its BEST BY FAR!! The cradle of Western civilization of
which you are not a part.
> Perhaps it was like Islam. When both overthrowing the old order and being exposed to new ideas they
> went wild. Something did happen
Something DID HAPPENED in your insane brain. Find it FAST!
> in the Hellene world but just what isn't quite clear
GET AN EDUCATION YOU IMBECILE REDNECK!!!!!
> and then an
> apparent serious exposure to Egypt beyond just trade.
GET AN EDUCATION YOU IMBECILE REDNECK!!!!!
> It has happened in modern times. When nation
> states were invented for Europe, Jews became citizens and dove into civilization and learning with a
> vengence for their first intellectual flowering in history.
>
> The Greeks set benchmarks in many areas and most of them stood until a few centuries ago. We
> remember Athens for its period of democracy but not for the other cities which were still kingdoms.
What do you know about the Spartan state boyo??
> We remember Plato/Socrates for philosophy but not the rest as more than curiosities. You have to be
> rich to be an epicurean and equally rich to choose to be a stoic rather than have it as the way life
> is.
>
> They did a lot of things in different cities over centuries but their mark on the world directly
> because of their efforts was minimal.
"We give them all kinds of credit for being the foundation of western
civilization"
GET TO THE MADHOUSE QUICK!!!!
Nestor
GAYbwoy GAYson Lame-Brew Aged 99
Your intense sexual frustration is seeping through your abnormally calm
veneer
HERE
Henry Hooray
news:43374dbe$0$12184$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
>
> "June R Harton" <JUNEH...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> news:K8uZe.1$Hq...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
>>
>> "Heretic" <her...@anti.com> wrote in message
>> news:dh223r$1l40$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr...
>>
>>
>> http://www.freewebs.com/carthia/quotes.htm
>>
>
> I think this should put an end to the question. First European Football
> Champions, now European Basketball Champions. That's Europe's top two
> sporting championships which Greece now hold. Oh and don't forget the
> Greek
> victory in the Eurovision Song Contest and the Greek ballet dancer in the
> Eurovision Young Dancer 2005 final.
Good to be able to agree with Agamemnon on occasion.
Henry.
Big Butch Floppie Bwoy
You'll be sucking his grikcyp COCKney knob next will you Trosborg ?
*LMFAOAY*
Check him OUT !
http://www.odinit.plus.com/aboutus.html
Hey Argyrou you sick FREAK of nature
I know you're BENT & DESPERATE but I'm sure you won't fancy the "Danish
Tundra Troll Trosborg"
http://www.trosborg.freeserve.co.uk/images/photo.2.jpg
Look at him !
Even YOU have more hair, BALDY !
PWNT !
Mhtsos
> On a different thread
http://www.adath-shalom.ca/greek_influence.htm#tab1
Science and religion don't go well together.
The last pope advised NOT to use condoms because they have tiny holes
through which the aids virus can go through.
karapanomanolokopoulos
No means No muthafacka!
Heretic
gentleman."
George Bernard Shaw
"Some Greek fellow was always first!"
Lucretius, (Roman philosopher, poet)
"Greeks are my teachers."
Johann Wolfgang Goethe (Letter to his son Augustus1815)
"The science, the art, the jurisprudence, the chief political and social
theories, of the modern world have grown out of Greece and Rome-not by favor
of, but in the teeth of, the fundamental teachings of early Christianity, to
which science, art, and any serious occupation with the things of this world
were alike despicable."
Thomas Henry Huxley
"The mention of Greece fills the mind with the most exalted sentiments and
arouses in our bosoms the best feelings of which our nature is capable."
James Monroe, U.S. president. (Message to Congress, Dec. 1822)
"Ancient Greeks are the immortal educators of Humanity.We are obliged to
confess that Greeks hold the reigns of our civilization and all
Civilization."
Friedrich Nietzsche ("The birth of tragedy")
"Everything was put forth by Hellenes."
B. Geiger (Culture, the education of the Hellene man)
"If Greeks were not fighting each other, they would have conquered the
world."
Otto Bismark (Speech 20-3-1890)
"We are children of the Greeks."
Frederick the Great, king of Prussia, about 1760
"The Greek nation rules culturally over the whole of Humanity"
Ulrich Vilamovits (Brunno Schnell: Die Entdeckung des Geistes u.s.w)
"There lived people in Ancient Greece equal to Gods"
Johannes Vinkel (History of Art)
"Today Humanity survives on the Heritage of Greece"
J. Stobart (The glory that was Greece)
"Hellas, this name cannot be uttered be anyone without a thrill"
Fransua Rene de Satobrian (Memoires de Cas Recamie)
"Greek art is inconceivable."
August Rodin (Letter to Sicelianos)
"We breath the air of Greece at all times, without knowing it."
Jacqueline De Romilly (Pourquoi la Grece)
"There is in History a miracle. And I call a miracle that which happens only
once. That is Ancient Greece."
Ernest Regnan ("A prayer to Athens")
"All civilized nations, in what entails the activities of mind, are colonies
of Greece."
William Dyran (World History of Civilization)
"Every citizen of the world is a little bit Greek"
Horhe Luis Borhes (Speech University of Crete)
"And if it comes to dying for Greece, divine are the laurels, for only once
one dies."
Frederick Mistral ("Hymn to Greece")
"The values of Greek civilization from a specific viewpoint remain still as
tenets and unreachable standards."
Carl Marx (Collected Works,XII)
"If Greeks didn't exist -beings gifted with exceptional genius- we would
never have reached to the discovery of modern science."
Benjamin Farrington ("Greek Science")
"Greece is even today in arts and literature the school of the world."
Victor Duruy ("Histoire de Hellenes")
"Without you, Oh Greece, what would the world be"
William Muller (Greece and the world)
"In the creations of mental and artistic endeavor there existed in Greece
perfection, magnificence, and eternal value."
Theodore Birt ("Alexander the Great")
"Excepting the blind laws of nature, nothing in this world moves that doesn'
t come from the Greeks."
Henry Maine ("Lecture",1875)
"There is a Greece hidden in the heart of every European."
Andre Marleau ('hymn to Greece", 1959)
"Everything miraculous and magnificent that comes from the eons comes from
Greece."
Ludwich A' King of Bavaria (in a poem on Greece, 1830)
"Greece achieved in art and literature standards of beauty that were never
surpassed."
Noris Croissie ("The Ancient Greek Civilization")
"Whatever beautiful we have we owe it to Greeks"
Ambrose Didot ("Greek writers")
".the Greek is raised over all people, he is the chosen one"
Jean Vernan (Myth and thought in Ancient Greece)
"We are unable to take one step forward in our art without relating it to
the art of the Greeks."
Richard Wagner ("Wagner and Greece")
"Greece leads Humanity to civilization."
Charles De Lil ("Introduction" to the translation of Homer)
"Greece has made me free and complete"
Henry Miller ("Collosus of Marusi")
"Europe is the daughter of Greece"
Pandit Nehru (Glances on world history)
"It is excellent to descent from Greece, the land that gave light to the
world."
Victor Hugo ("The Philellines")
"The Greeks created for the first time what we call thought"
Bruno Snell ("The discovery of Intellect- the Greek roots of European
Thought")
"In truth have we discovered something -anything- in philosophy, in
metaphysics, in logic and cosmogony, after the Ancient Greeks?"
Jean Rispen ("Grand Greek Mythology")
"If in your home you don't have the works of Ancient Greeks, then you live
in a home without light."
Bernard Shaw (Dramatic opinions and Essays)
"Oh Greek, wherever I turn my though, wherever I turn my soul, I find you in
front of me.pioneer and insurmountable."
Friedrich Von Schiller ("Greeks")
Heretic
the rest of the cultural endeavors.
I'm just going to mention a few characteristic examples:
The Gnomonas (Goniometer) and the Map by Anaximander (550 BCE)
The Lathe for metals, woods and ceramics (including several extremely
advanced metal alloys) found in Eleusina (older than 400BCE)
The Catapult and the Ballista by the research and development center of
Dionysious the Senior of Syracuse (400 BCE)
The Araxni and Sinaraxnon (Astrolabe and Polos) by Eudoxos o Knidios (360
BCE)
The Hydraulic Telegraph (350 BCE known from Poliorkitika of Aineias)
The worm-screw, hydraulic clock, odometer-dromometer, hydraulic cannon and
solar panel guns discovered (and many more) by Archimedes (287 BCE)
The suction-vacuum pump by Ktesibios (285 BCE)
The Solar clock by Apollonios (2220 BCE)
The dioptra (a sort of binocular goniometer used in land surveys), harmonium
(parent of the church organ) and many more inventions of Heron the
Alexandreus (100 CE)
The aiolousphera, which was a sort of a steam engine (an axle taking motion
by a steam boiler!) also by Heron the Alexandreus (100 CE)
The Cylindrical Projection for maps by Marinos o Tyrios (60 CE)
But one of the best examples is the Computer of Antikythera. The most
complicated mechanism constructed in the world until 1200 CE! (see Derek de
Solla Price, Gears from the Greeks: The Antikythera Mechanisme - A Calendar
Computer in Transactions of the American Philosophical Society, New Series,
vol. 64, part 7, 1974)
Also the number and size of the mechanical works found in Greece should be a
good indicator of how technologically advanced they were. Greeks worked for
quality of life. Who cares about enormous tombs?
Martin Edwards
>
> "June R Harton" <JUNEH...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> news:K8uZe.1$Hq...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
>
>>
>> "Heretic" <her...@anti.com> wrote in message
>> news:dh223r$1l40$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr...
>>
>>
>> http://www.freewebs.com/carthia/quotes.htm
>>
>
> I think this should put an end to the question. First European Football
> Champions, now European Basketball Champions. That's Europe's top two
> sporting championships which Greece now hold. Oh and don't forget the Greek
> victory in the Eurovision Song Contest and the Greek ballet dancer in the
> Eurovision Young Dancer 2005 final.
>
but the offering in question was hardly representative.
--
You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause - Chico Marx
Weenie Beanie Tinfoil ®™
> Beanie with the tiny weenie HEY WE MAY HAVE A GRIK POET HERE *lol* eating his heart out..... once again.
Awwwwww yes.......
Basketball ! such a major EUROPEAN PHENOMENON !
NOT !!!!
*LMFAOAY*
>
> Get used to it jealous loser!
"Get used to it Jealous loser" ? errrrrm let me see now
errrrrrrmmmmmm.....
PONTUS !
How about that ? 'ey LOSER ?
No ?
Errrrrrrrrrmmmmm The seat of Grik Orthodox blasphemous infidel kafir
religion errrrmmmmmmm whassitcalledagain errrrm Constantino......NO
errrmmmm hang on....... ISTANBUL !
How about that one 'ey LOSER ?
No ?
OK what else did your LOSER forebears LOSE that you grik sarantosporos
bitchizz are still all bitter and twisted about them LOSING
errrrmmmmmm,,,,,,
What was it you tried to call Izmir ? ah yes....Smyrna !
*ROTFFLMFAOAY*
I'm not even going to mention Thrace !
Mbouhahahahahahahhahahahahaarrrr
Time will heal you !
PWNT
PS Have you ever visited the "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" ?
Morten Reistad
Indeed.
What on earth does Greece have to prove anyway?
Greece was the founding place of our civilization, and contrary
to the later adopters, the Romans, they actually persisted through all
the intervening ages of Roman occupation and collapse and
still exist as a nation; with language as intact as any other two millennia
old nation[1], while Latin has been vulgarized beyond recognition.
Just by existing, Greece has done us all a great service during the
last two millennia. And, as agamemnon has pointed out, it does not
look as if Greece is any less vital than other nations on earth.
-- mrr
[1] which made me wonder; how many nations exist from this age ?
Outside of east asia I can only think of Egypt,Israel,Iran and India.
Weenie Beanie Tinfoil ®™
Here's a better one....
You ready ?
OK
"Oh how the mighty have fallen" !
PWNT !
Weenie Beanie Tinfoil ®™
I'm afraid the record buying public disagrees with you there
BTW
Turkish pop Idol Tarkans globally covered "Kiss Kiss" no1 was ripped
off by the jealous griks too you know !
Weenie Beanie Tinfoil ®™
Mmmmmm
And just look at those griks now !
Holding out their BEGGING BOWLS to the EU
Funding and training PKK terrorists
Supporting and harbouring Milosevic regime flunkies
Etc !
Takis42nd
Matt Giwer
>> Agamemnon wrote:
> TOTAL BULLSHIT
Although I have no problems with major changes to commonly accepted history I am aware of no one
attributing, for example, algebra or alcohol or the zero to either the ancient or Byzantine Greeks.
Do you have sources for this?
As you would also know there were plenty of converts to Islam to get out from under the tyranny of
Greek Orthodox ritual and Orthodox priests and their taxes so this does not eliminated Greeks at
all. It leaves us only with Islamic Greeks.
>> Consider they did something the Greeks and Romans never managed,
>> discovered that abstract knowledge could have practical applications.
>> And in the process learned there was a way to discriminate between
>> correct and incorrect knowledge.
> The Arabs didn't put anything to practical applications that wasn't
> already invented by the Greeks. Earlier this year the BBC ran a series
> called What The Ancients Did For Us and everything they claimed camp
> from the Arabs has already been invented by the Greeks and Romans a
> thousand years earlier. The big giveaway was that all of the names for
> these inventions were pure Greek and it was laughable that the presenter
> was and saying and so out name for this and that come from the Arab word
> so and so, which everyone knows perfectly well was actually ancient Greek.
You are hung up on arabs but we have been over this years ago. There were certainly a few leaders
who were in fact from places refered to as Arabia in those days. There were three Arabias from the
ancient Greek and Roman namings. The only "real" Arabs from today's designation of Arabia originated
from the east coast of the Red Sea. That we today name it the Arabian peninsula and call everyone
from it Arabs in addition to Saudi Arabia does not make them all Arabs.
The population of Arabs from the original area of Islam was simply insufficient to have raised any
significant armies. Felix Arabia would be northern Syrians and as you know Syrians have been around
since at least 2500 BC. One does not confuse people claiming to be Arabic from tradition with what
they really are by descent. If you listen to the educated speaking correctly they will clearly state
it means only having adopted the language and the mixture of Arabic culture and Islamic religion.
And so far as I am aware no one is taking any Arab's word for anything. The attributions have been
by the west and for the sake of naming them.
And I don't see your problem in the long haul. It started with the Greeks and in less than a
century of appearing in the west far surpassed what Islamics added over several centuries.
You appear to be fighting the last millenium's battles without seriously looking at events and
seeing there is really nothing to fight.
The manpower for the wars of expansion were from conversion of the local populations. Eventually
they came to speak Arabic but they were still local converts. Suliman the magnificant Kurd for
example. Kurds still don't speak Arabic nor claim arabic culture.
>>>> Although the superstitions of Christianity could not be
>>>> distinguished from that of Greece and Rome the loss of principles of
>>>> law and melding of church and state lead to a certain disaster for
>>>> civilization. Religious duty replaced civic duty.
>>> You are of course taking about the Roman Catholic church betraying
>>> Byzantium to the Turks.
>> Not the history I heard. Rather the locals got some passing Crusaders
>> involved in their fight and when they didn't pay the Crusaders sacked
>> Constintinople weakening it so it could not hold off the Turkomans.
> MORE BULLSHIT.
> It was the plan of the Venitians all the long to sack Constantinople.
> They demanded free passage to Palestine and when the Byzantine couldn't
> provide it they crusaders sacked the city.
They were prepared to go through the land without a transit tax if that is what you mean. But the
involvement in a local power play was the proximate cause. Maybe the deal was related to the
transit. I have not looked into the details or even if there is sufficient detail recorded.
If that had been their only intention then it does not make sense. If they were to sack a city they
would either stay and hold it or carry back the loot. Moving on to the Holy Land left a shitload of
pissed people at their back covering their route home. That is not good planning. That is not even
bad planning. That is a plan that could never have been sold as a plan.
>> Besides they were the wrong color of Catholicism and it took years to
>> get a crusade organized.
And they were the wrong color Catholics. And betraying to the Turks means it was possible to do
something about it even if desiring to do so. It is rare to expect a rout when it comes to wars. If
there was any underhanded planning it was more likely to expect a weakened Byzantium which could be
persuaded to the see the wisdom of allegience to the Pope. The rout would have ruined such planning.
--
Israelis say the holocaust was no worse than uprooting jews
from Gaza. Who am I to argue?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3502
Matt Giwer
> Ο/Η Matt Giwer έγραψε:
>>Heretic wrote:
>>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>>Without even bothering with the details,
>>>I know it's a big text, but I would appreciate it if you could take the time
>>>and read it before sharing your opinions.
>>>>there are not enough Greeks to give the rest of the world a run for its money so the
>>>>answer is no.
>>>What have numbers got to do with civilization? Are the Chinese today the
>>>greatest cultural producers? Is the rest of the world turning Chinese and I
>>>didn't notice? Last I saw the Chinese were getting westernized (adopting
>>>ideas like democracy, equality, freedom even at a slow pace) as much as the
>>>rest of the world.
>> Once the Chinese get a reasonable fraction of their population properly educated they will be.
>>Today's Greeks are about as educated as they are ever going to be, percentagewise and by degree
>>level. So the absolute number of Greeks simply cannot outnumber the other nationalities. If everyone
>>in Lichtenstein were a genius, the US would still have more geniuses because of the larger population.
> You can't shove it up your thick block-head, can you? You are an
> American and you probably think that the "bigger" THE "BETTER", like
> your awful cars when it comes to compare them with the European ones.
If you had intended to demonstrate you are an idiot you should have made that a preface so I could
have better prepared.
I said nothing about bigger being better. I said the manpower pool available to make a better
society depends upon the total population.
> We are talking about CIVILIZATION, EDUCATION and MENTALITY you redneck!
While I may be a redneck my nigger-whuppin' days are over. As for those three only education cna be
quantified. For civilization, every nation has the best civilization. Mentality is undefined in this
context.
> Its not a matter of "percentage" or "quantity". Case closed, and if you
> cannot understand it well its your problem. Get an education.
If you can understand you can explain. As you cannot explain it, I see not point in addressing it
until you do.
>>>Also, was Ancient Greece's civilization greatness based on population
>>>numbers? I thought that Greece was a small, poor, weak nation (nation not in
>>>the modern sense) in relation to the rest of the world powers. But can you
>>>name a great Egyptian or Persian philosopher? A significant Israeli or Celt
>>>dramaturges?
>>As I said the Greeks gave credit to the Egyptians
> Refferences please?? What kind of "credit" did we ever give to the
> Egyptians except of some common deities??
> Proofs boyo, Proofs!
Here I reference facts in common knowledge and the boy wants me to do a google search for him.
Newsflash. I don't give a damn if you accept it or not.
>>so whether I can name them or not the Greeks said
>>they existed.
> Name a couple of them at least... Oups! I forgot, there were not any,
> ;-)
I doing your own google search you may come across a few names.
>>I am not familiar with Persia
> You are not familiar with anything regarding ancient history.Its clear.
>>but one assumes a Persian could name a few.
> Who? PROOFS! proofs boyo, Proofs!
I would have thought everyone had heard of Zoroaster, the oldest near-monotheism which can be
reliably dated.
>>Somehow they
>>managed to rule from Persia all the way to the Greek Peninsula and into Egypt. Would we think they
>>were much today? Doubt it but the Greeks did in their time.
>> I don't think much of the Greek philosophers in today's terms. They got a few things started but it
>>never went anywhere and they never developed any methods for deciding between philosophies.
> This shows how low your education is...You are a tupical american...you
> don't know even where Greece is....
In deep shit still recovering from a dictatorship but with no apparent ability to restore its
economy. It is also involved in a juvenile pissing context with one of the republics of the
Yugoslavia using the name Macedonia. Perhaps the real problem Greece has is living the past.
>>And because of that avoided inventing science and engineering.
> WHAT??? Archimedes, Thales and so many others!!GET AN EDUCATION YOU
> IMBECILE REDNECK!!!!GHEEEEZ!!!What a LOAD OF BULLSHIT! Ti malakas eisai
> re panilithie..
They did some one-off observations. Did Archimedes go on to develop the foundation of mechanics?
Hardly.
Thales who traveled to EGYPT (which you did not know before now) to study geometry and added to it.
Although he was able to accomplish some quite advanced things (which he may have learned from the
Egyptians you never heard of) it went no where as the rest of the Greeks until he made his fortune
cornering the oil press market. But never forget he determined the origin of all matter was water.
One would expect him to say olive oil. Perhaps he really invented the Mafia's early cover oil business.
Do learn to use Google. It may lead you to learning Greek history.
>>They developed the mindless intellectual
>>exercise of inventing consistent new philosophies instead.
> No need to comment your retarded and moronic statements....Are you the
> most clever redneck in your village??
> :-))))))))))))))))))))))) Ti malakas eisai.
I would only be the most clever were it a Greek village.
For example I would not be as the great philosopher who developed a new consistent philosophy and
then lived it by going around naked all the time and shitting in public whenever the need arose.
>>>>We give them all kinds of credit for being the foundation of western civilization
> The above line you wrote refutes what you wrote so far...You are
> mentally insane, aren't you??
Is it possible to be physically insane in Greece? Please explain the difference.
Perhaps you could explain instead of revealing your ignorance of Thales debt to Egypt.
>>Most of their
>>products were sporadic bursts from different cities which were independent until Alexander's father.
> GET AN EDUCATION YOU IMBECILE REDNECK!!!!!
Same suggestion.
>>Alexander mostly put an end to the Persian threat having allies every place he fought perhaps
>>accounting for his respect for all local gods and customs else not gain allies.
>> So best civilization is not quite a reasonable description.
> No it isn't. Its BEST BY FAR!! The cradle of Western civilization of
> which you are not a part.
Best by far of course with the Spartan tradition of slaughtering slaves annually to prevent them
from becoming too numerous not to mention slavery itself. And then the great people of Sparta who
are known for absolutely nothing of cultural or societal interest putting an end to those upstart
Athenians who did have something of interest. And the backwater Macedonia unifying those brilliant
people for the first time.
>> Perhaps it was like Islam. When both overthrowing the old order and being exposed to new ideas they
>>went wild. Something did happen
> Something DID HAPPENED in your insane brain. Find it FAST!
Which ancient Greek is credited with algebra? The 0? Distilation?
>>in the Hellene world but just what isn't quite clear
> GET AN EDUCATION YOU IMBECILE REDNECK!!!!!
Aggie, is this really you or to you have an ignorant twin sister?
>>and then an
>>apparent serious exposure to Egypt beyond just trade.
> GET AN EDUCATION YOU IMBECILE REDNECK!!!!!
I should check the phase of the moon to see if it is the sister.
>>It has happened in modern times. When nation
>>states were invented for Europe, Jews became citizens and dove into civilization and learning with a
>>vengence for their first intellectual flowering in history.
>> The Greeks set benchmarks in many areas and most of them stood until a few centuries ago. We
>>remember Athens for its period of democracy but not for the other cities which were still kingdoms.
> What do you know about the Spartan state boyo??
That they are the foundation of everything great that was Greece???
>>We remember Plato/Socrates for philosophy but not the rest as more than curiosities. You have to be
>>rich to be an epicurean and equally rich to choose to be a stoic rather than have it as the way life
>>is.
>> They did a lot of things in different cities over centuries but their mark on the world directly
>>because of their efforts was minimal.
> "We give them all kinds of credit for being the foundation of western
> civilization"
> GET TO THE MADHOUSE QUICK!!!!
Western civilization can be considered to have many roots. Most of them derive from Rome in law and
civil engineering as a government function as in roadways and water supplies. The pre-democracy
political structure had its origin in the hierarchical rule of regions as well as the tradition of
the knights as enforcers.
Greece had little intrusion until the british colonies got pissed but for them the majority of the
philosophy was from more recent people like Locke and for organization the failure of Rome to remain
a republic. The specific democracy attributed to Athens, not to Greeks in general, was considered
exactly the wrong way to run a country.
Is there anything else, Aggie?
For the record: In the US in Texas they do not tell Pollack jokes. They tell Aggie jokes. In Greece
they probably tell Turk jokes. Same thing.
--
According to Bush America is attacked not for its faults
but for its virtues. The main virtue is Iraq as seen by
Iraqis. The main fault is Iraq as seen by Iraqis.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3497
nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
Lawful to bomb Israelis http://www.giwersworld.org/israel/bombings.phtml a11
Nestor
Ο/Η Matt Giwer έγραψε:
> Nestor wrote:
> > Ο/Η Matt Giwer έγραψε:
>
> >>Heretic wrote:
>
> >>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>
> >>>>Without even bothering with the details,
>
> >>>I know it's a big text, but I would appreciate it if you could take the time
> >>>and read it before sharing your opinions.
>
> >>>>there are not enough Greeks to give the rest of the world a run for its money so the
> >>>>answer is no.
>
> >>>What have numbers got to do with civilization? Are the Chinese today the
> >>>greatest cultural producers? Is the rest of the world turning Chinese and I
> >>>didn't notice? Last I saw the Chinese were getting westernized (adopting
> >>>ideas like democracy, equality, freedom even at a slow pace) as much as the
> >>>rest of the world.
>
> >> Once the Chinese get a reasonable fraction of their population properly educated they will be.
> >>Today's Greeks are about as educated as they are ever going to be, percentagewise and by degree
> >>level. So the absolute number of Greeks simply cannot outnumber the other nationalities. If everyone
> >>in Lichtenstein were a genius, the US would still have more geniuses because of the larger population.
>
> > You can't shove it up your thick block-head, can you? You are an
> > American and you probably think that the "bigger" THE "BETTER", like
> > your awful cars when it comes to compare them with the European ones.
>
> If you had intended to demonstrate you are an idiot you should have made that a preface so I could
> have better prepared.
>
The same applies on you: You should have introduced yourself as an
ignorant redneck.
> I said nothing about bigger being better. I said the manpower pool available to make a better
> society depends upon the total population.
>
WRONG! You cannot think "why", can you? Lets think of a GREAT human
POOL like Saudi Arabia, Iran or many of the African nations. Are they
"better" than Switzerland, Scandinavian countries or Hellas??
SHOVE it up your THICK HEAD!: Quantity has NOTHING to do with
QUALITY!!!!!
> > We are talking about CIVILIZATION, EDUCATION and MENTALITY you redneck!
>
> While I may be a redneck my nigger-whuppin' days are over.
Good that you admitted that you are a redneck. Very honest of you,
indeed.
> As for those three only education cna be
> quantified. For civilization, every nation has the best civilization.
WRONG!! DIFFERENT NATIONS HAVE DIFFERENT CIVILIZATIONS BUT NOT *EQUAL*
CIVILIZATIONS.
Like the men and women: We are NOT "EQUAL", we are NOT the "same", but
we are the SAME towards the LAW.
> Mentality is undefined in this
> context.
>
You are WRONG AGAIN! There ARE OBJECTIVE things about mentality that
can be measured.
> > Its not a matter of "percentage" or "quantity". Case closed, and if you
> > cannot understand it well its your problem. Get an education.
>
> If you can understand you can explain. As you cannot explain it, I see not point in addressing it
> until you do.
>
I've already EXPLAINED it to you, but your head is so thick!
> >>>Also, was Ancient Greece's civilization greatness based on population
> >>>numbers? I thought that Greece was a small, poor, weak nation (nation not in
> >>>the modern sense) in relation to the rest of the world powers. But can you
> >>>name a great Egyptian or Persian philosopher? A significant Israeli or Celt
> >>>dramaturges?
>
> >>As I said the Greeks gave credit to the Egyptians
>
> > Refferences please?? What kind of "credit" did we ever give to the
> > Egyptians except of some common deities??
> > Proofs boyo, Proofs!
>
> Here I reference facts in common knowledge and the boy wants me to do a google search for him.
>
What "facts" did you reference here boyo?? Did you name somebody??
ANYTHING?? NOTHING!!
> Newsflash. I don't give a damn if you accept it or not.
>
The LEAST i would care about right now is to educate a redneck like
yourself....too late for you bloke...
> >>so whether I can name them or not the Greeks said
> >>they existed.
>
> > Name a couple of them at least... Oups! I forgot, there were not any,
> > ;-)
>
> I doing your own google search you may come across a few names.
>
Do the fucken "google" search and PRESENT them here! Bozo!
> >>I am not familiar with Persia
>
> > You are not familiar with anything regarding ancient history.Its clear.
>
> >>but one assumes a Persian could name a few.
>
> > Who? PROOFS! proofs boyo, Proofs!
>
> I would have thought everyone had heard of Zoroaster, the oldest near-monotheism which can be
> reliably dated.
>
2 things on this: First WHAT the HELL has Zoroastrianism has to do with
SCIENCE, ENGINEERING, PHILOSOPHY, ARTS!!! Second: HAVE YOU EVER HEARD
ABOYT Hermes the (3 times)-GLORIOYS?? "Hermes o TRISMEGISTOS" in
Hellenic. The Jews and others copy-pasted our COSMOGONY-GENESIS and
"made up" their Version of "Genesis". Like the big "Cataclysm" in which
Assyrians(Gilgamesh) and Jews(Moses) copied the Hellenic History of
Cataclysm with Defkalion and Phyrra. I don't expect you to know these
things, you are a low-educated redneck, as you admitted. If you are
interested though, do a research or ask me to help you on these issues,
although i don't know if i can find the same kind of information in
Internet since i have only books about these matters. Maybe Agamemnon
can provide you some Internet links.
> >>Somehow they
> >>managed to rule from Persia all the way to the Greek Peninsula and into Egypt. Would we think they
> >>were much today? Doubt it but the Greeks did in their time.
>
> >> I don't think much of the Greek philosophers in today's terms. They got a few things started but it
> >>never went anywhere and they never developed any methods for deciding between philosophies.
>
> > This shows how low your education is...You are a tupical american...you
> > don't know even where Greece is....
>
> In deep shit still recovering from a dictatorship
Buahahahaaaaaa... "Dictatorship"...You mean the AMERICAN-SPONSORED
Dictatorship more than 30 years ago!!!
More than 30 YEARS have PASSED you IMBECILE!! More than 30 YEARS!
> but with no apparent ability to restore its
> economy.
I agree on this. Our POLITICIANS are SONS OF A WHORE!! Thats for SURE!
They sell-out our country WITHOUT doing ANYTHING to IMPROVE certain
AREAS!!!
> It is also involved in a juvenile pissing context with one of the republics of the
> Yugoslavia using the name Macedonia.
You don't know anything about this issue. Its not a simple "name"
context, its a VERY VITAL INTEREST.
The Slavoskopians tried to steal our History and to raise TERRITORIAL
CLAIMS against Hellas.
> Perhaps the real problem Greece has is living the past.
>
The REAL problem of my country is that NOBODY GIVES A FUCK!!! Nobody
CARES! We DO NOT HAVE A VISION FOR THE FUTURE!! Our SOLED-OUT
POLITICIANS do their BEST to DELETE Hellas from the face of the earth.
But i'm sure that the very last minute we'll WAKE UP and make out
ancestors and the rest of the world PROUD AGAIN!
> >>And because of that avoided inventing science and engineering.
>
> > WHAT??? Archimedes, Thales and so many others!!GET AN EDUCATION YOU
> > IMBECILE REDNECK!!!!GHEEEEZ!!!What a LOAD OF BULLSHIT! Ti malakas eisai
> > re panilithie..
>
> They did some one-off observations. Did Archimedes go on to develop the foundation of mechanics?
> Hardly.
>
Oh yes he did. Do a google search and if you cannot find anything ask
me(check what his mechanics did to the Romans and the Roman fleet). I
will hapilly provide you with some info although i don't have a lot of
time available. :-)
> Thales who traveled to EGYPT (which you did not know before now) to study geometry and added to it.
GEOMERTY "GEOMETRIA" is a HELLENIC SCIENCE of MATHEMATICS
"Mathimatika". The HELLENES taught the Egyptians Geometry and GREEK
Architects built the Pyramids "Pyramides" in Hellenic, of Egypt. Can
you name a single EGYPTIAN mathematician?? Cause i can name a DOZEN of
Hellenes mathematicians at least!
> Although he was able to accomplish some quite advanced things (which he may have learned from the
> Egyptians you never heard of)
Is it possible for the student to educate his master?? Nope! :-)
> it went no where as the rest of the Greeks until he made his fortune
> cornering the oil press market. But never forget he determined the origin of all matter was water.
The human body is a bag FULL OF WATER! But you are a bag full of shit!
> One would expect him to say olive oil.
Perhaps a redneck like yourself? ;-)
> Perhaps he really invented the Mafia's early cover oil business.
No shit Sherlock! Are you the smartest kid of your momma or not?
>
> Do learn to use Google. It may lead you to learning Greek history.
LEARN TO READ USEFUL BOOKS! LEARN HOW TO USE YOUR MICROSCOPIC BRAIN! Re
pousti, eisai stokos telika!
>
> >>They developed the mindless intellectual
> >>exercise of inventing consistent new philosophies instead.
>
> > No need to comment your retarded and moronic statements....Are you the
> > most clever redneck in your village??
> > :-))))))))))))))))))))))) Ti malakas eisai.
>
> I would only be the most clever were it a Greek village.
>
So you are a redneck...a dumb one! Maybe you are the only person on
earth that GW Bush can beat in an IQ contest! LMAO!!!
> For example I would not be as the great philosopher who developed a new consistent philosophy and
> then lived it by going around naked all the time and shitting in public whenever the need arose.
Shit is your name and SHIT is your game....Scatology seems to be your
field of interest...You are a miserable human being....
>
> >>>>We give them all kinds of credit for being the foundation of western civilization
>
> > The above line you wrote refutes what you wrote so far...You are
> > mentally insane, aren't you??
>
> Is it possible to be physically insane in Greece? Please explain the difference.
>
I am amazed that you can distinguish between these two.....Maybe there
are a few intact brain shells in your infested mind..."maybe".
What kind of debt!! WTF are you talking about?? Enlighten us on this
issue, please do!
> >>Most of their
> >>products were sporadic bursts from different cities which were independent until Alexander's father.
>
> > GET AN EDUCATION YOU IMBECILE REDNECK!!!!!
>
> Same suggestion.
>
You are the redneck, not me. ;-)
> >>Alexander mostly put an end to the Persian threat having allies every place he fought perhaps
> >>accounting for his respect for all local gods and customs else not gain allies.
>
> >> So best civilization is not quite a reasonable description.
>
> > No it isn't. Its BEST BY FAR!! The cradle of Western civilization of
> > which you are not a part.
>
> Best by far of course with the Spartan tradition of slaughtering slaves annually to prevent them
> from becoming too numerous not to mention slavery itself.
The Messenians were about 10 times more than the Spartans. They
revolted many times and in one case they almost won..."almost". As
about slavery...SLAVERY EXISTED in your COUNTRY until RECENTLY! And we
are talking about 2.500 ago! Lat alone the britons, the French, etc...!
> And then the great people of Sparta who
> are known for absolutely nothing of cultural or societal interest putting an end to those upstart
> Athenians who did have something of interest.
Read first Ksenofon's "Polity of the Spartans" and when you finish
tell me to suggest you another interesting book in order to *learn*
about the Spartans. Our CIVIL WARS were TERRIBLE indeed but they were
always dominated from political games.
> And the backwater Macedonia unifying those brilliant
> people for the first time.
>
Yes the macedonians were less developed than the other Hellenic
city-states mainly because they were constantly attacked by barbarians
since they were in our northern borders. And who the FUCK told you that
we wanted to be a "unified" state!? Gheez!! You are such a kid....
> >> Perhaps it was like Islam. When both overthrowing the old order and being exposed to new ideas they
> >>went wild. Something did happen
>
> > Something DID HAPPENED in your insane brain. Find it FAST!
>
> Which ancient Greek is credited with algebra? The 0? Distilation?
>
YES! Even a recent discovery of one of Archimedes' books prooved that
the Arabs were lucky enough to have our ancient papers since the FUCKEN
CHRISTIANS AND BYZANTIUM DESTROYED EVERYTHING!!
> >>in the Hellene world but just what isn't quite clear
>
> > GET AN EDUCATION YOU IMBECILE REDNECK!!!!!
>
> Aggie, is this really you or to you have an ignorant twin sister?
>
Are you talking about your sister perhaps? I bet she is a redneck like
you. A true cow-girl! LMAO!
> >>and then an
> >>apparent serious exposure to Egypt beyond just trade.
>
> > GET AN EDUCATION YOU IMBECILE REDNECK!!!!!
>
> I should check the phase of the moon to see if it is the sister.
>
Better check your brain boyo and let the moon alone.
> >>It has happened in modern times. When nation
> >>states were invented for Europe, Jews became citizens and dove into civilization and learning with a
> >>vengence for their first intellectual flowering in history.
>
> >> The Greeks set benchmarks in many areas and most of them stood until a few centuries ago. We
> >>remember Athens for its period of democracy but not for the other cities which were still kingdoms.
>
> > What do you know about the Spartan state boyo??
>
> That they are the foundation of everything great that was Greece???
>
Wrong again, try better.
> >>We remember Plato/Socrates for philosophy but not the rest as more than curiosities. You have to be
> >>rich to be an epicurean and equally rich to choose to be a stoic rather than have it as the way life
> >>is.
>
> >> They did a lot of things in different cities over centuries but their mark on the world directly
> >>because of their efforts was minimal.
>
> > "We give them all kinds of credit for being the foundation of western
> > civilization"
> > GET TO THE MADHOUSE QUICK!!!!
>
> Western civilization can be considered to have many roots.
Europe is our Daughter you IMBECILE!
> Most of them derive from Rome in law
Yes Roman Law influenced the European law(and not only) big time! True!
> and
> civil engineering as a government function as in roadways and water supplies.
You are WRONG again! You have to see Hellenic Houses which had 6 floors
and WATER PIPES through their walls for HEAT WATER like the MODERN
HEATERS!! And the date???? BEYOND 3.000 BC!!!!! You have to see ANCIENT
GREEK water-supplies dated back to the 3rd millenia(and beyond) BC!! I
can name many many more. Heretic gave you also some things. What can
you possible say about the FIRST Computer on EARTH?? Go and read
something valid, you kid.
>The pre-democracy
> political structure had its origin in the hierarchical rule of regions as well as the tradition of
> the knights as enforcers.
>
?????????? put your childish thoughts in a line and try to say
something reasonable.
> Greece had little intrusion until the british colonies got pissed but for them the majority of the
> philosophy was from more recent people like Locke and for organization the failure of Rome to remain
> a republic. The specific democracy attributed to Athens, not to Greeks in general, was considered
> exactly the wrong way to run a country.
>
What a load of BULLSHIT!!
> Is there anything else, Aggie?
>
Have you ever thought to pay a visit to a psychologist??
> For the record: In the US in Texas they do not tell Pollack jokes. They tell Aggie jokes. In Greece
> they probably tell Turk jokes. Same thing.
>
But there is ALWAYS an uneducated (or ill-educated) REDNECK in the back
sdtage! LMAO!!
Nestro,
"We breath the air of Greece at all times, without knowing it."
Jacqueline De Romilly (Pourquoi la Grece)
> --
THE REAL Yorgos Tsolakis
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Agamemnon
Yet more NONSENSE.
Dionysus was the inventor of wine back in 1400 BC. The Greeks were using
complex Algebra over a millennium before the Arabs and there are ancient
texts from the time of Christ showing this and were using the concept of
zero and infinity in 200 BC since Archimedes invented calculus as the
Academes coxes shows.
>
> As you would also know there were plenty of converts to Islam to get out
> from under the tyranny of Greek Orthodox ritual and Orthodox priests and
> their taxes so this does not eliminated Greeks at
There was no tyranny of the Greek Orthodox church. The emperor and his
governors ruled the empire.
> all. It leaves us only with Islamic Greeks.
What a load of bullshit. Islam never made any voluntary converts. Conversion
to Islam was on pain of death.
WRONG.
It was the plan form the start. The 4th Crusade was against Constantinople.
>
>>> Besides they were the wrong color of Catholicism and it took years to
>>> get a crusade organized.
>
> And they were the wrong color Catholics. And betraying to the Turks means
> it was possible to do something about it even if desiring to do so. It is
> rare to expect a rout when it comes to wars. If there was any underhanded
> planning it was more likely to expect a weakened Byzantium which could be
> persuaded to the see the wisdom of allegience to the Pope. The rout would
> have ruined such planning.
More BULLSHIT. Byzantium agreed to give authority to the Pope and still it
was betrayed with the loss of all of the eastern trade roots. The Crusaders
were motivated for one reason alone and that was to sack every city they
came to for profit. They couldn't rule a flock of sheep.
Big Butch Floppie Bwoy
Idiot
The oldest recovered vessel containing wine was found in Eastern
Turkiye in the SUMERIAN region and was dated to around 4000 BC
Takis42nd
Pants Awry
Nope
you get a YAWWWWWWN
DULLARD !
Martin Edwards
ruck over this. Ey va!
Tom *Hooray Henry* Trosborg
That's your opinion and I respect it but
Opinions are like Grik arseholes
All Griks have one......... and most of them STINK !
*LOLOLOL*
Agamemnon
"Martin Edwards" <big_m...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dheisk$vg$2...@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> Weenie Beanie Tinfoil ®™ wrote:
>>
>> I'm afraid the record buying public disagrees with you there
>>
>> BTW
>>
>> Turkish pop Idol Tarkans globally covered "Kiss Kiss" no1 was ripped
>> off by the jealous griks too you know !
>>
Oh dear, drear, dear.... The idiot doesn't know that Giorgos Alkaios hit
Syrmatovegma was ripped off by the Turks.
Big Butch Floppie Bwoy
Oh dear dear Argyros G Argyrou
As always you are both DELUDED and WRONG
No suprises there !
TWAT !
Martin Edwards
pop is more heavily rhythmic than Turkish because Greek is a more
heavily stressed language.
Heretic
> Nothing interesting about _ANCIENT_ history.
> Stay on topic, asshole.
It would be so easy to return the insult but then I would have fallen to
your level.
KaraMounoPanoMalakOpoulos
Fuck levels dewd call the cunt a cunt already !
*LOL*
stat...@gmail.com
Kickboxer The Destroyer
First you described civilization as a dynamic interraction between politics, philosophy and religion.
Then you said that the dominance of religion, especially of Christianity, led to the stagnation of Greek civilization.
You then explained that today's Greeks perform rather poorly but because of the history, the language and what we get taught in schools, all is not lost.
Let me add some thoughts...
Today, the three forces that define civilization are no longer politics, philosophy and religion, but banking, technology and the individual.
Technology has usurped power from religion because it brings scientifically repeatable results. It is more reliable than prayer or miracles.
Banking has taken power from philosophy because look at the things that money does. Money builds hospitals, universities, airports, etc. It also amplifies personal freedom. If you have money you can go places and do things that you couldn't do if you didn't have money. Money brings more pleasure and fulfillment than philosophy. That is why people today are preoccupied with money and not with philosophizing. And this is why central banks rule nation states (cultural/ideological entities) and not the other way around.
As people become more independent and self sufficient, politics loses power. Libertarianism is quickly replacing communism and other forms of collectivism.
So, in my view, the reason why today's Greeks aren't performing well is because the thought environment has changed. Ancient Greek culture which valued politics, philosophy and religion has become obsolete. Who drove it into obsoletion? You and me.
If you want ancient Greek culture to make a comeback, do it by example. Try living without money and technology and prove to those who do that your lifestyle is better.