Macedonia's great Alexander statue vexes Greece
pavel
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/macedonias-great-alexander-statue-vexes-greece-20090609-c1o9.html
www.setimes.com
Astride his rearing horse, Alexander the Great will soon raise his
hand high above the main square in Macedonia's capital on a giant
statue that has enraged Greece.
Shrouded in secrecy, the ambitious but deeply controversial project
has seen few details emerge other than that it will cost this
impoverished Balkan state more than 10 million US dollars (seven
million euros).
"The works are in the final phase," Vladimir Todorovic, the mayor of
the downtown Centar district where the 22-metre (72-foot) marble
monument will stand in proud defiance of its southern neighbour, told
AFP.
Both Macedonia and Greece claim the famed warrior-king as their own.
Born in Pella in modern-day Greece, Alexander the Great conquered the
Persian Empire and much of the world known to ancient Greeks before
dying in Babylon in 323 BC at the age of 32.
Todorovic earlier suggested the project was motivated by the deadlock
in talks with Greece to resolve the dispute over the name of the
former Yugoslav republic.
"When such negotiations last for about two years without any
concessions from the Greek side, then perhaps this government decision
to build a monument that angers them ... is a wise gesture," he said
in a TV interview.
Athens has refused to recognise its neighbour under its constitutional
name, the Republic of Macedonia, because that is also the name of a
northern Greek province.
UN-led negotiations on the 18-year-old row have proved fruitless, with
Athens vetoing Macedonian membership in the North Atlantic Treaty
Organisation and threatening to derail its European Union integration.
Greece has also heaped scorn on the plans to erect the statue, a
structure that will dwarf most buildings around Makedonija Square.
"From the information we have, the size, height and cost of this
statue are inversely proportional to seriousness and historic truth,"
Greek foreign ministry spokesman George Koumoutsakos said.
Proposed by the Centar district and backed by the government, the
project includes a shiny, white central statue of Alexander surrounded
by 16 other sculptures, according to details leaked by the media.
Designed by local sculptor Valentina Stevanovska, Alexander will
reportedly stand next to a fountain with a mosaic base, surrounded by
four bronze lions and guarded by eight, three-metre (10-foot), bronze
soldiers, one of them Alexander's father, Philip II of Macedon.
But it remains unclear how the sculptures, to be executed by the
Ferdinando Marinelli Artistic Foundry in Florence, Italy, will be
transported to Skopje. Greece is unlikely to allow them passage
through its port of Thessaloniki, and a route across Albania would be
long and complicated.
Macedonia agreed to help finance the statue in 2007, the year after it
changed the name of Skopje airport to "Alexander the Great" in a move
that likewise riled Athens.
But the pricetag of 7.5 million euros -- given by the Centar district
when it announced the project -- has met with criticism inside
Macedonia, whose struggling economy has worsened with the global
financial crisis.
The tiny, landlocked nation of two million people has an unemployment
rate of around 40 percent and many feeling the pinch cannot understand
this extra expense.
For architect Aleksandar Rajcevski, just as worrisome is the magnitude
of the monument which he says will "stifle" central Skopje.
"It's so big! How will people even be able to see Alexander's face,
for example?" Rajcevski asked.
Others like philosophy professor Nada Proeva of Skopje University see
it as a misguided attempt to assert a national identity, after
challenges from nearly all its neighbours since Macedonia proclaimed
independence in 1991.
Bulgarians reject the notion of a Macedonian language, while the
Serbian Orthodox Church protests against the autonomy of its
Macedonian counterpart.
Amidst such pressure, the nationalist-led government has pumped up its
claim to Alexander's heritage on grounds that his country was once
part of ancient Macedonia.
Such initiatives were "unnecessary, counter-productive, and even out
of fashion," said Proeva who feels the country's identity is sound.
© 2009 AFP
pavel
> Macedonia's great Alexander statue vexes Greecehttp://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/macedonias-great-alexander...www.setimes.com
Additional information
[Utrinski daily, Skopje, December 16th, 2009]
http://www.utrinski.com.mk/?ItemID=803FF94A3003BD4195C5DC78FA2D2CE7
Eight Lions around the Monument of Alexander
By Sanja Naumovska
The fountain that is a part of the monument of Alexander the Great
will be built the next year and will cost 4.5 million euros. By the
mayor Vladimir Todorovich it will be built in the next six months,
with a diameter of 30 meters, on its bottom with mosaics from
the antiquity, and will be from white Italian marble, on 60 cm
above the "Macedonia square" level.
Around the monument of Alexander the Great will be put
eight lions - four with face to the visitors, and four with
face to Alexander, from the mouths of the last will go water.
The monument, itself, will be with a height of approximately
22 m, from them 12 m for the statue, and the rest for the
base. Around the monument will be placed eight soldiers
of Alexander the Great - one of them is his father Philip II.
Their height will be 3 m. All figures will be done in Florence.
By the political observers, the start of the building of the
huge monument is a clear sign to Athens for the future
policy of the premier Gruevski on the bilateral relations
witrh Greece.
ADR
> On 20 Дек, 17:33, pavel <pavelmakedon...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Macedonia's great Alexander statue vexes Greecehttp://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/macedonias-great-alexander...
>
Absolutely. But what Gruevski is doing is digging his own grave
here. By erecting a huge statue of Alexander the Great in Skopje (a
city never in any construct called Macedonia), the irredentist claims
would have become visible to all. Very few would not know where
historical Macedonia lays. There is always a great danger in erecting
statues and venerating "ancestors", the home of which lays in another
country. In fact, this whole issue has helped Greece immensely. It
should continue.
SteN
This is insane. Someone should call for investigation how public funds
in FYRoM are used! 4.5 mil Euro!!! What are these people thinking???!!!
ADR
Probably from a loan guaranteed by the EU!!! In any case, I would
actually vote for Greece to advance the money to Gruevski to do this.
The monument will stand as one of the biggest funny spot in Europe. I
am sure that even the locals will chuckle!!
pavel
Please, there are also some similar gigantic and kitsch projects in
Greece:
see BBC News:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2210108.stm
Alexander the Great plan sparks row
A plan to carve a 70-metre-high statue of Alexander the Great's head
into a mountain in northern Greece has archaeologists and
environmentalists outraged.
Some opponents of the plan have vowed to go to court to stop the 30-
million euro project, while the Greek Culture Ministry has warned that
it will not allow work to begin as scheduled in November.
This will be a grand monument to a great man and it doesn't matter if
archaeologists say it's going to be just kitsch
Angelos Frantzis,
local mayor
The plan, from a group of Greek-Americans, would see a rock outcrop on
Mount Kerdylio in the northern province of Macedonia changed into a
massive monument to the fourth-century BC empire-builder.
Environmentalists fear it will spoil the landscape and harm the area,
while archaeologists have called the project a "monstrosity" that they
say could threaten a nearby ancient theatre and a Byzantine church.
"This is a serious environmental alteration which then can be copied
by other towns and villages," said Dimitris Grammenos, the director of
the Thessaloniki Archaeological Museum.
"The area is protected by archaeological laws, because of the nearby
antiquities," he said.
Economic boost
But those behind the monument, which would overlook the Aegean Sea,
say it will bring more tourists to the area, and help the economy.
"This rock with a height of 600 metres is sticking out of the rest of
the mountain just waiting for this," said the mayor of the nearby town
of Asprovalta, Angelos Frantzis.
"This will be a grand monument to a great man and it doesn't matter if
archaeologists say it's going to be just kitsch."
There are also concerns that the impetus behind the project is a
desire to claim Alexander the Great as exclusively Greek - something
that some fear could increase tensions with the neighbouring Former
Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, which shares a name with the northern
Greek province.
"The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia could do the same thing,"
Byzantine expert Haralambos Bakirtzis told the Times of London. "Where
would that lead?"
Alexander the Great has long been revered for his brilliant military
strategy, which saw his empire expand from his birthplace, Pella in
northern Greece, all the way to India before he died at the age of 33
in 323 BC.
[Pavel - But similar kitsch
and gigantic projects existed even in the time of Alexander the Great
himself.]
See:
http://some-landscapes.blogspot.com/2006/07/mount-athos-carved-as-monument-to.html
Mount Athos Carved as a Monument to Alexander the Great
In Landscape and Memory Simon Schama follows his discussion of Mount
Rushmore and its sculptor, Gutzon Borglum, with an account of
Borglum’s classical exemplar Dinocrates, architect to Alexander the
Great. According to Vitruvius (De architectura book 2) Dinocrates
arrived from Macedonia and came to the notice of Alexander by dressing
himself as Hercules and stationing himself within sight of the camp
tribunal where Alexander was giving judgement. Dinocrates proposed to
Alexander a Herculean project, the conversion of Mount Athos into a
statue of a giant man which would have a city in one hand and a bowl
in the other containing waters from all the rivers of the mountain.
Alexander was impressed, but pointed out that on this mountain the
city would not have sufficient supplies of grain to feed its people.
The young architect was therefore set instead to survey and design the
city of Alexandria.
This story in Vitruvius has been used by various architects and
artists. Pietro da Cortona, in his drawing Pope Alexander VII Shown Mt
Athos by Dinocrates c1655, linked the new pope to the Alexander of
antiquity. Another illustration of ‘The Mount Athos Colossus’ appeared
in Baroque architect J. B. Fischer von Erlach’s Sketch of Historical
Architecture (1721). And then there is a landscape painting by Pierre-
Henri de Valenciennes, Mount Athos Carved as a Monument to Alexander
the Great (1796) (the Art Institute of Chicago’s site only has a tiny
illegible thumbnail image, but someone has put up a snap here). As
Simon Schama points out, Valenciennes’ painting ‘is a benevolent
reworking of Poussin’s Polyphemus, whose Cyclopean eye is hidden by
the rear view of the geological giant, and had first been tried out by
Valenciennes in a chalk drawing done during his obligatory trip to
Italy almost twenty years before. The painting was shown at the salon
of the Republican Year VIII, when enthusiasms were running high for
both Hellenic “purity” and the cult of nature. Shrewdly marrying the
two together, Valenciennes produced the perfect icon of benevolent
republican sovereignty, where the exquisite landscape, verdant and
gently watered, is shown directly dependent on the mountainous
authority of the paternal state.’
gogu
news:712106bb-6c2e-4a48...@c34g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
On 21 ???, 03:04, ADR <aretz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > This is insane. Someone should call for investigation how public funds
>> > in FYRoM are used! 4.5 mil Euro!!! What are these people thinking???!!!
>> Probably from a loan guaranteed by the EU!!! In any case, I would
>> actually vote for Greece to advance the money to Gruevski to do this.
>> The monument will stand as one of the biggest funny spot in Europe. I
>> am sure that even the locals will chuckle!!
>Please, there are also some similar gigantic and kitsch projects in
>Greece:
>see BBC News:
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2210108.stm
You are trying hardly to excuse your slavic relatives, don't you?!
The date of your article: ...2002!
A so called project that was never realized because of its stupidity!
Try hradre next time convict;-)
--
E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure
in codesto reame debban risolversi tutte con grandi
puttane! F.d.A
Coins, travels and more:
http://s208.photobucket.com/albums/bb120/golanule/
http://gogu.enosi.org/index.html
pavel
> Ï "pavel" <pavelmakedon...@yahoo.com> Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìánews:712106bb-6c2e-4a48...@c34g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
> On 21 ???, 03:04, ADR <aretz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> > This is insane. Someone should call for investigation how public funds
> >> > in FYRoM are used! 4.5 mil Euro!!! What are these people thinking???!!!
> >> Probably from a loan guaranteed by the EU!!! In any case, I would
> >> actually vote for Greece to advance the money to Gruevski to do this.
> >> The monument will stand as one of the biggest funny spot in Europe. I
> >> am sure that even the locals will chuckle!!
> >Please, there are also some similar gigantic and kitsch projects in
> >Greece:
> >see BBC News:
> >http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2210108.stm
>
> You are trying hardly to excuse your slavic relatives, don't you?!
> The date of your article: ...2002!
> A so called project that was never realized because of its stupidity!
> Try hradre next time convict;-)
>
> --
erecting the monument of Alexander is a stage of the game between
Athens and Skopje, first started by the Greeks:
http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/6596/46/
Greek daily "Kathimerini" states that "Athens and Skopje continue to
play their 'funny game' initiated by Greece in 1991.
"The last move by Skopje to erect magnificent monument of Alexander is
the last move in a game between Greece and Macedonia that Athens
started in 1991, all of it in a fight who will get the name and
symbols of the Macedonian dynasty", says Kathimerini.
"The truth in this funny game is that we entered it with major frenzy.
Athens in 1991 with two, three moves surprised its northern neighbor"
says Kathimerini.
In a major political movement that prompted large demonstrations in
Salonica and to prove Macedonia was Greek, the Greek Government formed
the so called Macedonian Press Agency, an agency that today no one
mentiones because it was transformed into the state ANA agency, says
Kathimerini.
A year later we changed the Salonica airport from "Mikra" to
"Macedonia", while the Kavala airport was changed into "Alexander the
Great".
The same year Olympic Airlines set up the so called "Macedonian
Airlines" that also no one knows about, says Kathimerini in its
commentary.
gogu
Date of the first article you provided: ...2002;-)
FYROM provocation: 2009-2010!
Translated in plain ENglish: Greeks understood the stupidity of the whole
thing, FUROMIANS.*NOT*!;-)
'Nough said!
Have a nice day!
--
E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure
in codesto reame debban risolversi tutte con grandi
puttane! F.d.A
Coins, travels and more:
http://s208.photobucket.com/albums/bb120/golanule/
http://gogu.enosi.org/index.html
� "pavel" <pavelma...@yahoo.com> ������ ��� ������
news:0e5e7a62-86be-4497...@b32g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
On 21 ???, 12:22, "gogu" <Ruminii_Sug_Pul@la_Greci.com> wrote:
> I "pavel" <pavelmakedon...@yahoo.com> Yanaoa ooi
> i?ioianews:712106bb-6c2e-4a48...@c34g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
pavel
> HINT for STUPID slav revisionists;-)
>
> Date of the first article you provided: ...2002;-)
>
> FYROM provocation: 2009-2010!
>
> Translated in plain ENglish: Greeks understood the stupidity of the whole
> thing, FUROMIANS.*NOT*!;-)
>
> 'Nough said!
>
> Have a nice day!
>
> --
>
> E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure
> in codesto reame debban risolversi tutte con grandi
> puttane! F.d.A
>
> Coins, travels and more:http://s208.photobucket.com/albums/bb120/golanule/http://gogu.enosi.org/index.html
>
> On 21 ???, 12:22, "gogu" <Ruminii_Sug_Pul@la_Greci.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I "pavel" <pavelmakedon...@yahoo.com> Yanaoa ooi
> > i?ioianews:712106bb-6c2e-4a48...@c34g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
> > On 21 ???, 03:04, ADR <aretz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > >> > This is insane. Someone should call for investigation how public
> > >> > funds
> > >> > in FYRoM are used! 4.5 mil Euro!!! What are these people
> > >> > thinking???!!!
> > >> Probably from a loan guaranteed by the EU!!! In any case, I would
> > >> actually vote for Greece to advance the money to Gruevski to do this.
> > >> The monument will stand as one of the biggest funny spot in Europe. I
> > >> am sure that even the locals will chuckle!!
> > >Please, there are also some similar gigantic and kitsch projects in
> > >Greece:
> > >see BBC News:
> > >http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2210108.stm
>
> > You are trying hardly to excuse your slavic relatives, don't you?!
> > The date of your article: ...2002!
> > A so called project that was never realized because of its stupidity!
> > Try hradre next time convict;-)
>
> > --
>
> According to the Greek media
> erecting the monument of Alexander is a stage of the game between
> Athens and Skopje, first started by the Greeks
Date of the article in Kathimerini: 2009
I cannot remember the Greeks to have renamed the airports in
Kavala or Salonika to their previous names.
Anyway, the game with the monuments is a stupid one,
here I agree with you.
gogu
news:57c3a844-c022-49ab...@z41g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
On 21 ???, 14:13, "gogu" <Ruminii_Sug_Pul@la_Greci.com> wrote:
> HINT for STUPID slav revisionists;-)
>
> Date of the first article you provided: ...2002;-)
>
> FYROM provocation: 2009-2010!
>
> Translated in plain ENglish: Greeks understood the stupidity of the whole
> thing, FUROMIANS.*NOT*!;-)
>
> 'Nough said!
>
> Have a nice day!
>Date of the article in Kathimerini: 2009
You must be some kind of SUPID, otherwise I can explain how you can't read
at your age!!!
I wrote:" Date of the first article you provided: ...2002;-)"!!!
Obviously, I was referring to this article *YOU* provided:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2210108.stm
Thursday, 22 August, 2002, 14:36 GMT 15:36 UK
This is the article about the carving of that statue in Greece!
Is this your usual extremist-slav way of LYING and MISLEADING or just your
low comprehension skills?!
ADR
> Ï "pavel" <pavelmakedon...@yahoo.com> Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìánews:57c3a844-c022-49ab...@z41g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
>
> On 21 ???, 14:13, "gogu" <Ruminii_Sug_Pul@la_Greci.com> wrote:
>
> > HINT for STUPID slav revisionists;-)
>
> > Date of the first article you provided: ...2002;-)
>
> > FYROM provocation: 2009-2010!
>
> > Translated in plain ENglish: Greeks understood the stupidity of the whole
> > thing, FUROMIANS.*NOT*!;-)
>
> > 'Nough said!
>
> > Have a nice day!
> >Date of the article in Kathimerini: 2009
>
> You must be some kind of SUPID, otherwise I can explain how you can't read
> at your age!!!
>
> I wrote:" Date of the first article you provided: ...2002;-)"!!!
>
> Obviously, I was referring to this article *YOU* provided:
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2210108.stm
>
> Thursday, 22 August, 2002, 14:36 GMT 15:36 UK
>
> This is the article about the carving of that statue in Greece!
>
> Is this your usual extremist-slav way of LYING and MISLEADING or just your
> low comprehension skills?!
>
> Have a nice day!
Let's all agree that these supersized statues of Alexander the Great
are stupidities to the extreme. There is a modest equestrian statue
in Thessaloniki which is just fine. If FYROM wants to be
differential, it should erect a statue in Pella, where the man was
born. Erecting a huge monument of Alexander the Great in Skopje would
only lead to incredible, uncontrolled laughter by everybody.
So, both of you, calm down.
gogu
news:25fb427a-eefe-49c5...@k32g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 21, 4:42 am, "gogu" <Ruminii_Sug_Pul@la_Greci.com> wrote:
> ������news:57c3a844-c022-49ab...@z41g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
>> > Have a nice day!
>> >Date of the article in Kathimerini: 2009
>> You must be some kind of SUPID, otherwise I can explain how you can't
>> read
>> at your age!!!
>>
>> I wrote:" Date of the first article you provided: ...2002;-)"!!!
>>
>> Obviously, I was referring to this article *YOU* provided:
>>
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2210108.stm
>>
>> Thursday, 22 August, 2002, 14:36 GMT 15:36 UK
>>
>> This is the article about the carving of that statue in Greece!
>>
>> Is this your usual extremist-slav way of LYING and MISLEADING or just
>> your
>> low comprehension skills?!
>>
>> Have a nice day!
>Let's all agree that these supersized statues of Alexander the Great
>are stupidities to the extreme. There is a modest equestrian statue
>in Thessaloniki which is just fine. If FYROM wants to be
>differential, it should erect a statue in Pella, where the man was
>born. Erecting a huge monument of Alexander the Great in Skopje would
>only lead to incredible, uncontrolled laughter by everybody.
>So, both of you, calm down.
Who is not calm?!
Probably you!
And yes, that's what I said: that Greeks understood since 2002 that the idea
of such a supersized statue is stupid and abandoned it, while the FYROM-ians
are promoting it even today!
So, where is your disagreement?!
Or we are talking just to.talk?!
ADR
> ? "ADR" <aretz...@yahoo.com> ?????? ??? ??????news:25fb427a-eefe-49c5...@k32g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 21, 4:42 am, "gogu" <Ruminii_Sug_Pul@la_Greci.com> wrote:
>
>
>
George, you are getting flustered for no reason whatsoever. I think
that Pavel agrees with us that the supposed structure for the
Alexander monument in Skopje is silly, so we are all in violent
agreement here.