Mary - Greek/Sumerian
Aggie-Tom
Marian was another name for Athene in Asia-Minor
She was the Moon Goddess Marian, Myrine, Ay-Mari, Mariamne, or Marienna, who
gave her name to Mariandyne - 'Marians Dune' - and to Myrine, the city of
the gynocratic Lemnians; and whom the Trojans worshiped as 'Leaping Myrine'
(Homer Illiad ii. 814). 'Smyrna' is 'Myrine' again, preceded by its definie
article. Marienna, the Sumerian form, means 'High friutful Mother', and the
Ephesian Artemis was a fertility goddess. [Robert Graves - Greek Myths]
The Sumerians were definitly not Semitic.
Christianity was clearly based on Gods stolen from the Hellenes.
Why not respect the Gods for what the were originaly.
Mark Gerard Miller
connection between the names "Smyrna" and "Mary"?
Mark
In article <8tft9a$lkn$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com>,
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Aggie-Tom
"Mark Gerard Miller" <mg...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:8tg2oo$lkn$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Can anyone back up Aggie-Tom's assertion that there is an etymological
> connection between the names "Smyrna" and "Mary"?
>
Its not my assertion. It's Robert Graves.
Smyrne also known as Myrrh, in Greek is written Smyrni. In Turkish its
called Ismir.
Ismir is a compound Greek name like Istanbul (eis tin poli)
Ismir = eis (s)myrni meaning To Myrine (or Myrini)
QED
d
Aggie-Tom wrote:
>
>
> Christianity was clearly based on Gods stolen from the Hellenes.
>
>
why do you state this? It seems that most of earth's primitive cultures share
similar creation, as well as first man and first woman myths. For instance,
the virgin/son myth is found in many cultures, if not all. This had lead me to
believe that there was a time when earth had a shared culture. what part/s of
Christianity do you feel is based on "Gods stolen from the Hellenes?"
pleasant journeys,
-d
Aggie-Tom
"d" <sweet...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:39FB61FA...@earthlink.net...
All of Christs teachings except the references to Judaism were plagiaried
from Apolonius and Mary was Myrine the Artemis of Asia Minor.
The Church was created as a means of control the people by Constantine.
When the Romans had wiped out all the opposing Essene sects the Church
invented Christ, blending in the story of Apollonius and based his divinity
on the scriptures of the Jews which most Romans had not read so could not
academically challenge them.
After that it destroyed all the evidence that could undermine its authority
by burning down the Library of Alexandria on the edict of Theodosius in 389
AD.
The Church was thus able to bypass the Roman Laws, by claiming that it
obtained its laws from God alone and so Constantine was able to rule as Gods
chosen King with his edicts sanctioned by the appointed Church instestd of
the elected Senate.
See "The Christian "Fathers":The worst anti-Hellenes" and the "Apollonius"
threads in s.c.g
> pleasant journeys,
> -d
>
Hamburger Anus Death
Its possible the Christian Church only picked up from the Greek version of
this 'shared culture' that you postulate. Greece, and its former colonies
in Asia Minor was the place where it really took off in the Roman world.
And it inherited a strong strand of Platonic philosophy.
Has anyone mentioned that Mary is a 10th century construction anyway?
Personally, I think its because although by this time Christianity was the
overall 'official' religion, a situation existed like that of India, where
you find Vaisnava or Saivite branches of Hinduism as the Brahmanic or
high-caste manifestation, yet everywhere else you look you'll see Dhurga
or some other representation (usually quite terrible) of the Goddess being
venerated, despite the vast amounts of Literature devote to the 'official'
branches where frequently she is reduced to merely the 'Sakti' (energy) of
some superior male deity. So I think the Christian church, unable to wipe
out this primitive peasant worship of the Goddess, just incorporated it
into its pantheon by 'officialising' the worship through Mary.
Anyway, go to Europe and look at medievel representations of the Virgin. I
found one that the Virgin, child in one arm, Pomegranate (like the apple,
once a death fruit symbolising the Goddess of Death-In-Life) in the other.
Another icon, the child possessed this fruit. Lots of medieval Christian
beliefs and representations aren't a long ways from their pagan forebears.
Saints, with peculiar devices to aid iconic recognition, for instance. (St
Peter a key, St Francis the stigmata, and so on). Even the famous Giotto
fresco in Padova, its so Hindu in structure, not even an illiterate
peasant could have failed to grasp its meaning (Hell and the punishment of
the wicked flows from the left hand of Christ, which is to say evil is
just a part of God or God's manifestation to us as good is).
Yahweh himself is just obviously a pumped up Israeli Zeus. Wanders around
in a storm cloud, speaks from burning bushes, is insanely jealous of other
gods, smotes with lightning and otherwise controls the weather, (plagues
and pestilence I guess come from some Apollo-like aspect, Earthquakes from
Poseidon) and later, comes a supreme solar deity mounted on a throne of
flame. Hi, Jupiter!!! Wouldn't it be obvious that if the Roman Emperor
controlled the church and made if 'official' that they'd want a bit of
quid pro quo -- so make the God of Rome the bloody supreme diety so I've
got a continuation of my divine right of rule.
--
Hamburger A. Death
++++++++++++++++++
Two Minute Hate, Everlasting.
d
Hamburger Anus Death wrote:
Has anyone mentioned that Mary is a 10th century construction anyway?
are you saying that Jesus did not have a mother called "Mary" or
that Jesus did not have a mother, or are you simply referring to the emergence
of her "place" (which isnt all that big or important anyway) in the Christian
(now Catholic) church?
[snip] So I think the Christian church, unable to wipe
out this primitive peasant worship of the Goddess, just incorporated it
into its pantheon by 'officialising' the worship through Mary.
granted. the Christian Church incorporated pagan worship practices
wherever they went. and worship of the "goddess" was a difficult
practice to annihilate. The worship of "Mary" is probably one of
the reasons many "third world" countries (which are often in closer touch
with their native cultures) remain more Catholic than Protestant.
However, the place that Mary has in the Catholic religion is not really a part of Catholic or Christian theology, except for the idea of the virgin birth. Although the current pope has placed greater emphasis on Mary's role, as well as the role of the "feminine" in the deity itself, Mary's "place" in the theology remains controversial to this day. While I can agree that Mary's role in the Christian Church has pagan origins, I fail to see the Greek connection. However, one can certainly argue that the "saints" are somewhat like the lesser gods of the Greeks. But (imo) these are but external trappings (decoration) in the church.
You also wrote
And it inherited a strong strand of Platonic philosophy.
not surprising since Jesus reportedly spent a great deal of his life being
educated by philosophers and priests of many countries.
Anyway, go to Europe and look at medievel representations of the Virgin. I
found one that the Virgin, child in one arm, Pomegranate (like the apple,
once a death fruit symbolising the Goddess of Death-In-Life) in the other.
Another icon, the child possessed this fruit. Lots of medieval Christian
beliefs and representations aren't a long ways from their pagan forebears.
Saints, with peculiar devices to aid iconic recognition, for instance. (St
Peter a key, St Francis the stigmata, and so on). Even the famous Giotto
fresco in Padova, its so Hindu in structure, not even an illiterate
peasant could have failed to grasp its meaning (Hell and the punishment of
the wicked flows from the left hand of Christ, which is to say evil is
just a part of God or God's manifestation to us as good is).
but these are a cultures' representations of an idea ... light-skinned marys with blonde hair always annoy me. However, I realize that the culture was making a connection with a greater "truth/concept" that goes beyond the story of Jesus/Mary. Most cultures seemed able to perceive Jesus/Mary simply as the most recent "incarnation" of the Deity (fe/male). Therefore, how they represented their appearance was not of particular import. In our study of ancient (and older) cultures/religions we too often (imho) fail to give their people credit for having a sophisticated understanding of their "rituals" and "representations" of Gods.
Many times the numerous gods of a culture were not thought of as separate deities, but different aspects of the same deity. It is only when the culture's moral and spiritual base broke down that these gods were perceived of as separate gods (and by then few people actually believed in them anyway ... except for the most ignorant or easily manipulated.) The gods became "political" in their use ... a hypocritical construct, a way of maintaining control by whatever political regime was in power. By "separating" the gods, they were also able to separate and divide the people.
yet everywhere else you look you'll see Dhurga or some other representation (usually quite terrible) of the Goddess being venerated, despite the vast amounts of Literature devote to the 'official' branches where frequently she is reduced to merely the 'Sakti' (energy) of some superior male deity.
Merely "energy" ?
While it would seem that many of us in these newsgroups are agnostic and atheistic, I think one needs to consider that perhaps religion is not simply something that may fulfill a culture or human being's psychological needs. These theological constructs may (and in my opinion do) represent actual truths, even tho these truths may not have the same interpretation as the one that has been passed down to us during the last 2,000 years or so.
Yahweh himself is just obviously a pumped up Israeli Zeus. Wanders around
in a storm cloud, speaks from burning bushes, is insanely jealous of other
gods, smotes with lightning and otherwise controls the weather, (plagues
and pestilence I guess come from some Apollo-like aspect, Earthquakes from
Poseidon) and later, comes a supreme solar deity mounted on a throne of
flame.
pardon my ignorance. are you saying that Zeus predates Yahweh?
pleasant journeys,
-d
d
Aggie-Tom wrote:
Christianity was clearly based on Gods stolen from the Hellenes.
Which gods? and how is Christianity based on "Gods" anyway?
Is the "mass" Greek as well? how about "communion" and "resurrection"?
Concepts of "communion" and "resurrection" are key concepts in Christianity.
How about the idea of the "Messiah" and the "Judgement Day?" Are
these from the Greek as well? Enlighten me.
as for all that stuff about Constantine ... I agree with you.
But, you known Christianity was definitely moving downhill by then ...
. It was getting farther and farther away from the teachings
of Jesus, the Christ. Christ , as you probably know, was a title
given Jesus to equate him with the Christos, or third element of Creation
(love). Just the fact that the religion is called Christianity, and
not Jesuism, should say volumes. If it had been called Jesuism, I
might be more inclined to agree with you about he Greek connection.
for what its worth,
-d
Aggie-Tom
>This is the statement I have trouble understanding.
Aggie-Tom wrote:
>>Christianity was clearly based on Gods stolen from the Hellenes.
>Which gods? and how is Christianity based on "Gods" anyway? Is the
>"mass" Greek as well? how about "communion" and "resurrection"?
>Concepts of "communion" and "resurrection" are key concepts in
Christianity.
The Communion was based on the Teachings of Apollonius and practices of the
Essene Jews. Apollonius either founded an Essene order or had contact with
them since it was HE and not the Apostles who travelled the world spreading
the message and teachings of Krishna and the Hindu sages and Greek
Philosophers. No Roman record exist for the Acts of the Apostles but many
existed concerning the journeys of Apollonius and the Emperors themselves
mention his name. Apollonius bor of Tarsus was Paul (but not Saul who was a
Jew he was mixed up with by the Church)
> How about the idea of the "Messiah" and the "Judgement Day?" Are these
>from the Greek as well? Enlighten me.
Messiah - derives from Isaiah 14:32, i.e. Zion, Sion... Originally supposed
to be the Moon God Sin but the Greek took it to mean Dios or Zeus.
Judgement Day/Resurrection - derives from Isaiah 14:21-23... Originally
supposed to relate to the fate of the Babylonians a and the release of the
Jews who worshiped Ishtar/Anat the Holy Prostitute the church took it to be
the Resurrection of the Dead and Destruction of the world.
Note: you need to read the organically Greek text in the Septuagint. All
modern translation bare no resemblance to it and are nothing more that the
office *INTERPRETATIONS* of the Church, ie an ecclesiastical Cover Up. See
my literal Translation at bottom of page.
>as for all that stuff about Constantine ... I agree with you. But, you
known >Christianity was definitely moving downhill by then ... . It was
getting farther >and farther away from the teachings of Jesus, the Christ.
Christ , as you >probably know, was a title given Jesus to equate him with
the Christos, or third
Christ or Xristos meaning anointed was Krishna.
>element of Creation (love). Just the fact that the religion is called
Christianity, >and not Jesuism, should say volumes. If it had been called
Jesuism, I might be >more inclined to agree with you about he Greek
connection.
Xristos is a Greek word and probably has the same Indo-European root as
Krishna. What are you on about. Are the any Hindus here that can tell use
there meaning.
>.for what its worth
==========
Isaiah 14:
1 kai elehsei kuriov ton iakwb kai eklexetai eti ton israhl kai
anapausontai epi thv ghv autwn kai o giwrav prosteyhsetai prov autouv kai
prosteyhsetai prov ton oikon iakwb
And freedom is Jehovah of Jacob, and elected yet is Israel, and they are
resting on their earth, and the wanderer comes down in front of them and
comes down in front of the family of Jacob
2 kai lhmqontai autouv eynh kai eisaxousin eiv ton topon autwn kai
kataklhronomhsousin kai plhyunyhsontai epi thv ghv tou yeou eiv doulouv kai
doulav kai esontai aicmalwtoi oi aicmalwteusantev autouv kai kurieuyhsontai
oi kurieusantev autwn
and those nations move and go to their place, and they join together and
multiply over the earth, (and come) to God as servants and handmaidens, and
they take as captives their captors and govern their governors
3 kai estai en th hmera ekeinh anapausei se o yeov ek thv odunhv kai tou
yumou sou kai thv douleiav sou thv sklhrav hv edouleusav autoiv
3 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall give thee rest
from thy sorrow and vexation, and from thy hard servitude wherein thou didst
serve them.
and occurring in this day, comes rest of Jehovah from your sorrow and anger
and the hard work you did for them
4 kai lhmqh ton yrhnon touton epi ton basilea babulwnov kai ereiv en th
hmera ekeinh pwv anapepautai o apaitwn kai anapepautai o epispoudasthv
and goes the lamentation which is the king of Babylon's, and risen is the
day that is so that retired is the task and retired is the taskmaster
5 sunetriqen o yeov ton zugon twn amartwlwn ton zugon twn arcontwn
Jehovah interjected with the power of wickedness and the power of the
Archons.
6 pataxav eynov yumw plhgh aniatw paiwn eynov plhghn yumou h ouk efeisato
smitten is a nation with anger, plague incurable, on that nation is blown a
plague of anger
7 anepausato pepoiywv pasa h gh boa met eufrosunhv
with conviction on the earth are cries of joy
8 kai ta xula tou libanou eufranyhsan epi soi kai h kedrov tou libanou af
ou su kekoimhsai ouk anebh o koptwn hmav
and the Wooden Idols of Lebanon join with you and Kedros of Lebanon, since
you laid down nor razed our (their) copts
9 o adhv katwyen epikranyh sunanthsav soi sunhgeryhsan soi pantev oi
gigantev oi arxantev thv ghv oi egeirantev ek twn yronwn autwn pantav
basileiv eynwn
Hades from beneath is provoked to meat you, and for you have come all the
Giants and Archons of the earth, the founders of the thrones of the kings of
nations
10 pantev apokriyhsontai kai erousin soi kai su ealwv wsper kai hmeiv en
hmin de katelogisyhv
they all separate and say to you, and you have been taken, even as we and
you are reckoned
11 katebh de eiv adou h doxa sou h pollh sou eufrosunh upokatw sou
strwsousin shqin kai to katakalumma sou skwlhx
coming down to Hades, is your glory, your great fertility, underneath you
spreads out decay and you are flooded with worms.
12 pwv exepesen ek tou ouranou o ewsforov o prwi anatellwn sunetribh eiv thn
ghn o apostellwn prov panta ta eynh
how did it fall from Uranus, the dawn-bringer, the morning riser,
procreating on the earth, the one who goes to all nations.
13 su de eipav en th dianoia sou eiv ton ouranon anabhsomai epanw twn
astrwn tou ouranou yhsw ton yronon mou kayiw en orei uqhlw epi ta orh ta
uqhla ta prov borran
but you said in your heart, to Uranus I ascend, above the star of Uranus I
set my throne, to sit on a high mountain among the highest mountains to the
north
14 anabhsomai epanw twn nefelwn esomai omoiov tw uqistw
I rise up above the clouds: I live like the Most High.
15 nun de eiv adou katabhsh kai eiv ta yemelia thv ghv
now but to Hades go down and to the foundations of earth
16 oi idontev se yaumasousin epi soi kai erousin outov o anyrwpov o
paroxunwn thn ghn seiwn basileiv
the witnesses there wonder at you and say this one is the motivation of
earth, mover of kings
17 o yeiv thn oikoumenhn olhn erhmon kai tav poleiv kayeilen touv en
epagwgh ouk elusen
the goddess of everything all desolate, who cleaned out its cities and doesn
't return or free anyone
18 pantev oi basileiv twn eynwn ekoimhyhsan en timh anyrwpov en tw oikw
autou
so always the kings of nations will sleep in glory, every man in his own
house
19 su de rifhsh en toiv oresin wv nekrov ebdelugmenov meta pollwn
teynhkotwn ekkekenthmenwn macairaiv katabainontwn eiv adou on tropon imation
en aimati pefurmenon ouk estai kayaron
but you suck of the desire of death, enveloped with many craftsmen and
skilful swordsmen that go down to Hades, who's manner of garment is immersed
in blood that is not clean
20 outwv oude su esh kayarov dioti thn ghn mou apwlesav kai ton laon mou
apekteinav ou mh meinhv eiv ton aiwna cronon sperma ponhron
neither him nor yourself are clean, because my earth is bereaved and my
people slain, so don't stay forever perspicacious seed
21 etoimason ta tekna sou sfaghnai taiv amartiaiv tou patrov sou ina mh
anastwsin kai thn ghn klhronomhswsin kai emplhswsi thn ghn polewn
make ready your children, blot out the sins of your fathers, that they shall
not re-appear, and inherit the earth and fill it up with cities
22 kai epanasthsomai autoiv legei kuriov sabawy kai apolw autwn onoma kai
kataleimma kai sperma tade legei kuriov
I will raise them up says Jehovah Saboath and release their names and
essence and seed: so saith Jehovah
23 kai yhsw thn babulwnian erhmon wste katoikein ecinouv kai estai eiv
ouden kai yhsw authn phlou barayron eiv apwleian
and I (will) make Babylon a desert, so that all that come there come to
nothing, and make it a chasm in the sand to finish it.
24 tade legei kuriov sabawy on tropon eirhka outwv estai kai on tropon
bebouleumai outwv menei
this says Jehovah Saboath, is the way I have set out, this it is and this
that I have conceived it shall so remain.
25 tou apolesai touv assuriouv apo thv ghv thv emhv kai apo twn orewn mou
kai esontai eiv katapathma kai afaireyhsetai ap autwn o zugov autwn kai to
kudov autwn apo twn wmwn afaireyhsetai
the fate of the Assyrians on this earth of Ours, on my appearance lifts up
like footsteps and so comes upon them weight and guidance on their shoulders
26 auth h boulh hn bebouleutai kuriov epi thn oikoumenhn olhn kai auth h
ceir h uqhlh epi panta ta eynh thv oikoumenhv
this is the purpose that comes from Jehovah to all and everyone, this the
hand that is raised to all the nations everywhere
27 a gar o yeov o agiov bebouleutai tiv diaskedasei kai thn ceira thn
uqhlhn tiv apostreqei
the Holy Jehovah has makes real his purpose and takes back his raised hand
28 tou etouv ou apeyanen acaz o basileuv egenhyh to rhma touto
In the year that king Achaz died this word was born
29 mh eufranyeihte pantev oi allofuloi sunetribh gar o zugov tou paiontov
umav ek gar spermatov ofewn exeleusetai ekgona aspidwn kai ta ekgona autwn
exeleusontai ofeiv petomenoi
Don't cheer the Philistines, waiting to arrive is the weight of our strike.
From (out of) the seed of snakes comes out Aspidon, and his offspring come
out as flying serpents.
30 kai boskhyhsontai ptwcoi di autou ptwcoi de andrev ep eirhnhv
anapausontai anelei de limw to sperma sou kai to kataleimma sou anelei
and worshipping him are the poor, for the poor men in peace rest, for
unaware of the famine are your seed and your wasting unforeseen
31 ololuzete pulai polewn kekragetwsan poleiv tetaragmenai oi allofuloi
pantev oti kapnov apo borra ercetai kai ouk estin tou einai
holler gates of cities, crying are the cities walled-in, the Philistines
as-well, since smoke form the north comes and nothing is to be of it.
32 kai ti apokriyhsontai basileiv eynwn oti kuriov eyemeliwsen siwn kai di
autou swyhsontai oi tapeinoi tou laou
and what answer the kings of nations, that Jehovah founded Sion and it by
him shall save the humblest of people.
Aggie-Tom
"d" <sweet...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:39FC26D4...@earthlink.net...
Hamburger Anus Death wrote:
Has anyone mentioned that Mary is a 10th century construction anyway?
are you saying that Jesus did not have a mother called "Mary" or that Jesus did not have a mother, or are you simply referring to the emergence of her "place" (which isnt all that big or important anyway) in the Christian (now Catholic) church?
According to Isaiah the Messiah would have to be born of a Holy Prostitute. In the same way that in Genesis, Sara the mother of the Jews is described as a prostitute to Pharoah and his household, the mother of the Messiah or Zion had to be a prostitute of the Babylonians, the Whore of Babylon or Anat/Ishtar who was the goddess of the Jews and Wife to Jehovah. Prostitution was considered to be a Holy practice and was carried out in Temples.
When the Catholic Church meaning Clean Church (from the Greek Katharos) was founded by the Romans after they destroyed all of its competitors, this practice had to be sanitised and so the Greek Myrnie the Artemis form Asia-Minor cas co-opted to become the Virgin Mary, virgin bein the Judeo-Babylonian term for Temple Prostitute. Of course to be the son of god Christ had to be a Bastard so his mothers profession was fitting. The Church obviously had a very difficult trying to sanitise this Essene belief which is why Artemis whos temple's were not used as brothels become Mary rather than Aphrodite.
And it inherited a strong strand of Platonic philosophy.not surprising since Jesus reportedly spent a great deal of his life being educated by philosophers and priests of many countries.
Hamburger Anus Death
> Hamburger Anus Death wrote:
>
> >
> > Has anyone mentioned that Mary is a 10th century construction anyway?
>
> are you saying that Jesus did not have a mother called "Mary" or that Jesus did not
> have a mother, or are you simply referring to the emergence of her "place" (which
> isnt all that big or important anyway) in the Christian (now Catholic) church?
I'm not making any claims about the historical Jesus' existance, or the
state of his mother. One way or the other. I'm just talking about how the
Church builds its belief system about him up over time, and what their
sources and historical precedents are.
> However, the place that Mary has in the Catholic religion is not really a part of
> Catholic or Christian theology, except for the idea of the virgin birth. Although
Ahh go and look at medieval painting you will see Mary as part of the
trinity.
> Church has pagan origins, I fail to see the Greek connection. However, one can
The early church were mostly Greek, operating in the Roman empire, which
derives many of ITS influences from Greek thought. That's the Greek
connection.
> > Yahweh himself is just obviously a pumped up Israeli Zeus. Wanders around
> > in a storm cloud, speaks from burning bushes, is insanely jealous of other
> > gods, smotes with lightning and otherwise controls the weather, (plagues
> > and pestilence I guess come from some Apollo-like aspect, Earthquakes from
> > Poseidon) and later, comes a supreme solar deity mounted on a throne of
> > flame.
>
> pardon my ignorance. are you saying that Zeus predates Yahweh?
not as such, but even the Greeks were able to see that worship of Gods was
obviously pretty ancient, and that many gods shared similar
characteristics, and modes of worship. Yaweh is a ZEUS-LIKE god, meaning,
has his aspects, although obviously I think that his historical
construction predates that of the literate Greeks writings about their
pantheon.
Aggie-Tom
"Hamburger Anus Death" <hype...@autonomous.org> wrote in message
> > pardon my ignorance. are you saying that Zeus predates Yahweh?
>
> not as such, but even the Greeks were able to see that worship of Gods was
> obviously pretty ancient, and that many gods shared similar
> characteristics, and modes of worship. Yaweh is a ZEUS-LIKE god, meaning,
> has his aspects, although obviously I think that his historical
> construction predates that of the literate Greeks writings about their
> pantheon.
You what. Deios or Zeus was worshiped as a Cretan and Indo-European deity
more than 4000 years ago. The Jewish religion was concocted in Babylon 2600
years ago. What was written about Jehovah before then. Nothing. No earlier
evidence of his existence can be found because unlike the Greek Gods,
Jehovah was never portrayed in either art or poetry. They cant even find
Solamons original Temple in the right place. All the so called Psalms and
other literature were stolen form the Canaanites, the worshipers of Baal.
Why dont the Egyptians specifically mention the Biblical Moses who is
contemporary within 100 years to Ramases II and Agamemnon.
The Jews were the remnant of the cult of Akenathon and took up El and Baal
as their gods after the so called Exodus.
Then in the 6th C BC they worshiped Anat and Anu of Ur ie Uranu corrupted to
Jehovah and concocted their stories of Abraham of which there were 2 to give
them a claim over Palastine, and Noah who was the father of Sim or
Sin-Nannar the God of the Suen or Sumerians. The rest of the Bible is based
on corrupted Hittite, Greek, Canaanite and Assyro-Bablonians and Sumer
mythology and plagiarised Zoroastrianism.
The one thing obvious about all forms of YHWHism is that it is a completely
artificial religion. It a religion of contrived Nationalism and the religion
of Bandits and Terrorists where creating fear is paramont..
d
The Communion was based on the Teachings of Apollonius and practices of the Essene Jews. Apollonius either founded an Essene order or had contact with them since it was HE and not the Apostles who travelled the world spreading the message and teachings of Krishna and the Hindu sages and Greek Philosophers. No Roman record exist for the Acts of the Apostles but many existed concerning the journeys of Apollonius and the Emperors themselves mention his name. Apollonius bor of Tarsus was Paul (but not Saul who was a Jew he was mixed up with by the Church)
However, I dont have the time the read it now. The writings appear to add considerably to an already tangled tale. Though in what way, I do not know. When I have the time, I will read the material. Having said that,
the fact that Jesus does not appear in official Roman records, and Apollonius does, does not necessarily add to Apollonius' credibility. The modus operandi for the re/writers of history is to discount, discredit, modify, and if possible, nullify, anyone or anything they consider a threat to their power. It is certainly not impossible that Apollonius, rather than Jesus was the fiction (rather than Jesus), as Dr. Bernard writes. The little I have read of Apollonius sounds similar to the story told by those who believe Jesus was rich, part of priesthood hierarchy, and married Mary Magdalene. Perhaps they believe Apollonius was Jesus. Who knows? I really dont care. imo, Jesus was just the messenger, not the message. What his name was/is is not particularly important.
Perhaps the true story will never be uncovered in this world. Jesus will perhaps one day be another book in the Bible (The Book of Jesus) which may no longer be divided into old and new testament, or maybe the story of Jesus will go the way of myth and legend. We dont even get the true stories about people living today. How can we expect to know with any certainty the details about someone who lived 2,000 years ago? In any event, its Jesus' teachings that have been more important than the details of his life, or what history or the church has made of him. That Jesus may have shared a philosophy similar to some Greek philosophers is not surprising to me. Jesus taught for 3 years, he studied for most of his life prior to that, including the years he spent with his uncle in Egypt and elsewhere. Jesus' teachings were not original. Other cultures also had their great teachers with similar messages. This is precisely my point in one of my other posts in this thread. People in one culture will recognize the archetype of the spiritual figure, and then they weave their own cultural stories around the new name (or figurehead). Jesus (imo) was but one in a series of teachers whose purpose was to move humanity forward in its spiritual growth. After the 3rd century, most Christians who became Christians were not converts, they were people who were forced to be Christians. Christianity's church "evolved" into the blind leading the blind, which, no doubt, contributed to the way Jesus' original teachings were overlooked in the greedy grab for power that ensued in his name. Again, having said that, Christianity does have a way of coming back again and again to its the core teachings, and that is why it has survived this long.
Are you aware that Jesus is supposed to have been an Essene Jew? and that it is the Essenes who later evolved/branched off into the Gnostics, who were pretty much the last of the original Christians practicing what Jesus taught? The Gnostics were discredited and thrown out of the Church in the 2nd, 3rd, or 5th century -- cant remember the exact date anymore. With the Gnostics went many of Jesus' teachings. One can track some of them down in obscure books, but cross-referencing becomes a problem.
I still do not see much of a correlation between Greek gods, mythology, and the religions they spawned, and Christianity. Multiple deities within a culture, particularly deities that act more like humans with extra-ordinary powers, seem to encourage fragmentation within a society. imo, they also encourage fragmentation of the human psyche because of the warring or competitive aspects of the qualities they represent. They have little in common with a religion that encourages belief in one God ... altho I must admit that Christianity does at times walk the line regarding this by making Jesus synonymous with God.
-d
p.s. Regarding what follows below. I still do not see these concepts as Greek, or even Greek related. You are quoting a Greek translation of Hebrew text, not a Greek myth. Even if there is a connection between Zeus and Yahweh, Yahweh somehow managed to get rid of all the lesser gods, something Zeus apparently was unable to do. Jehovah or Yahweh has no face, no name .... which is so very different from Zeus who not only has a face and name, but an all too human personality. One concept of God is extremely sophisticated and the other ... the imaginings of frightened children, and/or clever politicians. There is no comparison.
george_...@my-deja.com
"Aggie-Tom" <cyprusandhe...@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> wrote:
>
Exactly, don't forget the Vlachos contribution. It is essential.
George
Roxy
two very different view points (faith and non-faith) and seemed very
intelligent. And I am not very learned in the study of religions,
history, mythology nor the analysis of them.
But a few lines stuck out and caught my eye..
"One concept of God is extremely sophisticated and the other ... the
imaginings of frightened children, and/or clever politicians. There is
no comparison."
That seemed like a very definitive statement, and I'm not sure I can
agree with such an absolute. The idea of 'sophistication' is relative to
opinion and current modes of thought. Also, it seems to me that the same
"imaginings of frightened children, and/or clever politicians" could be
said about the hebrew tribes and history that gave birth to their own
myths and legends. We are all only human and so are intrinsically flawed
in our perceptions and thus fallible. None has precedence over another,
based on that fact. Not the Greeks over the Hebrew nor the vice-versa.
"its Jesus' teachings that have been more important than the details of
his life, or what history or the church has made of him"
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the hope of understanding his life is
greatly linked to trying to unravel the validity of what is commonly
referred to as his teachings. Given that over time political
maneuverings, popular influence, and cultures shift and cause change to
the status quo, it seems to me that Jesus' teachings as we know them now
could be nothing like what he was actually teaching. If that is true or a
possibility, IMHO believers should really be concerned that they are
following and faithful to what they claim they are following and being
faithful to. Thus, history and faith are tightly linked, or should be
IMHO.
"Multiple deities within a culture, particularly deities that act more
like humans with extra-ordinary powers...[snip]...have little in common
with a religion that encourages belief in one God ... altho I must admit
that Christianity does at times walk the line regarding this by making
Jesus synonymous with God."
I'm not well versed in the beliefs of christians as a whole, and there
are so many subdivisions that it gets even more confusing. But I believe
the two largest divisions could be summarized as
a- following the idea that jesus, god and the holy spirit are the one and
same thing
b- following the idea that jesus is god's son, the holy spirit is a
messenger/agent of god, and the three are separate (but closely related/
united)
I'm not sure which originated when or what came first, if we can even
figure that out. But the idea that jesus is god's son seems to tightly
link the idea that the faith in jesus is not so different from the faight
of a pantheon of related gods. Since faith in jesus implies faith in god,
and they are related like family if you follow the (b) faith I described
above.
Well I hope that made sense.
--
Roxy
URL:http://www.ilstu.edu/~rmkorpa
We do not receive wisdom, we must discover it for ourselves, after a
journey through the wilderness which no one else can make for us, which
no one can spare us, for our wisdom is the point of view from which we
come at last to regard the world.
- Marcel Proust, "Remembrance of Things Past"
In article <39FE02B4...@earthlink.net>,
sweet...@earthlink.net wrote:
> --------------84BAE9ACF7614668BEA477FA
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
> <html>
> Aggie-Tom wrote:
> <blockquote TYPE=CITE>
> <pre>The Communion was based on the Teachings of Apollonius and practices of the
> Essene Jews. Apollonius either founded an Essene order or had contact with
> them since it was HE and not the Apostles who travelled the world spreading
> the message and teachings of Krishna and the Hindu sages and Greek
> Philosophers. No Roman record exist for the Acts of the Apostles but many
> existed concerning the journeys of Apollonius and the Emperors themselves
> mention his name. Apollonius bor of Tarsus was Paul (but not Saul who was a
> Jew he was mixed up with by the Church)
>
> </pre>
> </blockquote>
> where do you get your information? is it cross-referenced?
> I had never heard of Apollonius until reading your posts. Having
> done a search I have found Dr. Bernard's book. I assume this is the
> Apollonius of whom you write.
> <p>However, I dont have the time the read it now. The writings
> appear to add considerably to an already tangled tale. Though in what way,
> I do not know. When I have the time, I will read the material.
> Having said that,
> <p>the fact that Jesus does not appear in official Roman records, and Apollonius
> does, does not necessarily add to Apollonius' credibility. The modus
> operandi for the re/writers of history is to discount, discredit, modify,
> and if possible, nullify, anyone or anything they consider a threat to
> their power. It is certainly not impossible that Apollonius,
> rather than Jesus was the fiction (rather than Jesus), as Dr. Bernard writes.
> The little I have read of Apollonius sounds similar to the story told by
> those who believe Jesus was rich, part of priesthood hierarchy, and married
> Mary Magdalene. Perhaps they believe Apollonius was Jesus.
> Who knows? I really dont care. imo,
> Jesus was just the messenger, not the message. What his name was/is
> is not particularly important.
> <p>Perhaps the true story will never be uncovered in this world.
> Jesus will perhaps one day be another book in the Bible (The Book of Jesus)
> which may no longer be divided into old and new testament, or maybe the
> story of Jesus will go the way of myth and legend. We dont even get
> the true stories about people living today. How can we expect to
> know with any certainty the details about someone who lived 2,000 years
> ago? In any event, its Jesus' teachings that have been more important
> than the details of his life, or what history or the church has made of
> him. That Jesus may have shared a philosophy similar to some Greek philosophers
> is not surprising to me. Jesus taught for 3 years, he studied for
> most of his life prior to that, including the years he spent with his uncle
> in Egypt and elsewhere. Jesus' teachings were not original.
> Other cultures also had their great teachers with similar messages.
> This is precisely my point in one of my other posts in this thread.
> People in one culture will recognize the archetype of the spiritual figure,
> and then they weave their own cultural stories around the new name (or
> figurehead). Jesus (imo) was but one in a series of teachers whose
> purpose was to move humanity forward in its spiritual growth. After
> the 3rd century, most Christians who became Christians were not converts,
> they were people who were forced to be Christians. Christianity's
> church "evolved" into the blind leading the blind, which, no doubt, contributed
> to the way Jesus' original teachings were overlooked in the greedy grab
> for power that ensued in his name. Again, having said that, Christianity
> does have a way of coming back again and again to its the core teachings,
> and that is why it has survived this long.
> <p>Are you aware that Jesus is supposed to have been an Essene Jew?
> and that it is the Essenes who later evolved/branched off into the Gnostics,
> who were pretty much the last of the original Christians practicing what
> Jesus taught? The Gnostics were discredited and thrown out of the
> Church in the 2nd, 3rd, or 5th century -- cant remember the exact date
> anymore. With the Gnostics went many of Jesus' teachings. One
> can track some of them down in obscure books, but cross-referencing becomes
> a problem.
> <p>I still do not see much of a correlation between Greek gods, mythology,
> and the religions they spawned, and Christianity. Multiple
> deities within a culture, particularly deities that act more like humans
> with extra-ordinary powers, seem to encourage fragmentation within a society.
> imo, they also encourage fragmentation of the human psyche because of the
> warring or competitive aspects of the qualities they represent. They
> have little in common with a religion that encourages belief in one God
> ... altho I must admit that Christianity does at times walk the line regarding
> this by making Jesus synonymous with God.
> <p>-d
> <p>p.s. Regarding what follows below. I still do not see these
> concepts as Greek, or even Greek related. You are quoting a Greek translation
> of Hebrew text, not a Greek myth. Even if there is a connection between
> Zeus and Yahweh, Yahweh somehow managed to get rid of all the lesser gods,
> something Zeus apparently was unable to do. Jehovah or Yahweh
> has no face, no name .... which is so very different from Zeus who not
> only has a face and name, but an all too human personality. One concept
> of God is extremely sophisticated and the other ... the imaginings of frightened
> children, and/or clever politicians. There is no comparison.
Aggie-Tom
cultural stories around the new name (or figurehead). Jesus (imo) was but one in a series of teachers whose purpose was to move humanity forward in its spiritual growth. After the 3rd century, most Christians who became Christians
So why the need for Jehovah ? Why not Zeus.
were not converts, they were people who were forced to be Christians. Christianity's church "evolved" into the blind leading the blind, which, no doubt, contributed to the way Jesus' original teachings were overlooked in the greedy
Waht do you mean by Jesus' original teachings. Do you mean the Nazarene Masochism which drew revulsion from the Romans. Why else do you thing a Catholic (clean) Church had to be devised in the 4th C.
grab for power that ensued in his name. Again, having said that, Christianity does have a way of coming back again and again to its the core teachings, and that is why it has survived this long.
Are you aware that Jesus is supposed to have been an Essene Jew? and that it is the Essenes who later evolved/branched off into the Gnostics, who were
See my other posts.
pretty much the last of the original Christians practicing what Jesus taught? The Gnostics were discredited and thrown out of the Church in the 2nd, 3rd, or 5th century -- cant remember the exact date anymore. With the Gnostics went many of Jesus' teachings. One can track some of them down in obscure books, but cross-referencing becomes a problem.
According to Robert Eisenmans examination of the Dead Sea Scrolls the Qumaran Community were Fanatical Zealotine Fundamentalist Terrorists.
If the Biblical Jesus was one of them and they were Essene Jews then NONE of his teachings follow their mode of life. For example Jesus derogated the 10 Commandments which is a violated of the Qumran Law punishable by Death.
The Qumran Hebrew community were either not Essenes, thus Essenes were not Jews, or Jesus is a complete fiction created by the church.
Why would the Qumran Community keep a Scroll of War if they were peace loving Essene-Jews ? See “The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception” by Michael Baigent and Richard Leigh.
If the Biblical Jesus was real he was most likely a Hellenised Jew and a follower of Greek Philosophy based on the Pythagorean School and nothing to do with the Qumran or similar communities if we are to believe what is written in the Bible. Essene in this case would mean Hellenist and the only similar societies to be know at the time apart from Qumran were the ones of Apollonius which were not schools for training Terrorism but schools of Olympian, Hindu,and Buddhist Theology.
If the Real Jesus was NOT Greek then he would have been a Zionist Fanatic and nothing like in the Bible . The biblical version would then have to have been concocted, and the only source for his teachings is Apollonius again.
I still do not see much of a correlation between Greek gods, mythology, and the religions they spawned, and Christianity. Multiple deities within a culture, particularly deities that act more like humans with extra-ordinary powers, seem to encourage fragmentation within a society. imo, they also encourage fragmentation of the human psyche because of the warring or competitive aspects of the qualities they represent. They have little in common with a religion that encourages belief in one God ... altho I must admit that Christianity does at times walk the line regarding this by making Jesus synonymous with God.
-d
p.s. Regarding what follows below. I still do not see these concepts as Greek, or even Greek related. You are quoting a Greek translation of Hebrew text, not a Greek myth. Even if there is a connection between Zeus and Yahweh, Yahweh somehow managed to get rid of all the lesser gods, something Zeus apparently was unable to do. Jehovah or Yahweh has no face, no name ....
Get rid of them ?
Jehovah was a FICTION made up by the Jews during their exile in Babylon which is when the Pentateuch was written. To give them hope the Jews invented Moses as an ancestor who led the out from bondage in Egypt and Abraham (who was a Pimp to pharaoh, Genesis 11-) and was inveted to give the claim over Palestine then occupied by their REAL ancestors the Hellenic origin Philistines (Aliofili in the Greek LXX meaning alternate-friends), the worsipers of the gods El (Poseidon) and Baal (Minotaur, son of Poseidon) and of Serpents (Meduca) giving rise to Leviathan the ancestor of the Levite priesthood of Jehovah.
On top of that Jehovah was term used to hide the real name of the God which was been worshiped in the mode of Baal. Thus Jehovah stood for El, Elah, Elohim, Adon, Adonai, Jah, Sabaoth, Shaddai, Olam, Gibbor and Elyon and many other god the Jews originally worshiped or borrowed for the Babylonians and Canaanites. The aspect of Monotheism was stolen form the Zoroastrians another questionable faith.
Similarly the Jews concocted the Book of Daniel during the reign of Antonichus to demonised the Greek as Babylonians in the same way the Babylonians before them were demonised as Egyptians.
It also followed that the Books of the Maccabees declared by the Church as utter lies and works of fiction, i.e. Apocryphal, were concocted to demonise the Romans as Seleucid Greeks during the rebellion to resulted in the destruction of the temple.
The YHWHist faith is nothing more than Nationalistic hate propaganda and the Bible a manual for Terrorism.
which is so very different from Zeus who not only has a face and name, but an all too human personality. One concept of God is extremely sophisticated and the other ... the imaginings of frightened children, and/or clever politicians. There is no comparison.
Zeus was a REAL God, naturally evolving, that represented mans true feelings and emotions. In that respect man could converse with Zeus. Jehovah on the other hand is an ARTIFICIAL god and represents nothing but his own Devil a basic necessity of Monotheism..
d
>
>
> "One concept of God is extremely sophisticated and the other ... the
> imaginings of frightened children, and/or clever politicians. There is
> no comparison."
>
> That seemed like a very definitive statement, and I'm not sure I can
> agree with such an absolute. The idea of 'sophistication' is relative to
> opinion and current modes of thought. Also, it seems to me that the same
> "imaginings of frightened children, and/or clever politicians" could be
> said about the hebrew tribes and history that gave birth to their own
> myths and legends. We are all only human and so are intrinsically flawed
> in our perceptions and thus fallible. None has precedence over another,
> based on that fact. Not the Greeks over the Hebrew nor the vice-versa.
>
you are absolutely right. I let the heat of Aggie-Tom's argument get to me. I cld have
chosen my words more carefully. To be truthful, I am largely ignorant of the spiritual
side to Greek mythology. The Greek gods, to me, seem to be not very God-like at all.
They seem (to me) like human beings w/ a whole lot of power. They have petty quarrels
with one another and putter in the mundane lives of humans. There may be an entirely
more ancient and sophisticated spiritual aspect to them that I am entirely unaware of.
If so, I would like to know where I can read about it. Unlike the sophistication of
Greek philosophers, whose words and ideas stand the test of time, the Greek religious
mythos seems immature (to me) in comparison.
I dont have time at this time to answer your other comments. Thanks for yours.
pleasant journeys,
-d
Aggie-Tom
The Hellenist Religion and Greek Philosophy and Literature is one and the
same.
What survives is at:
http://classics.mit.edu/Browse/index.html
You have to piece together the rituals by yourself. Apollonius volumous
works and that of may others on the subject were deliberately destroyed by
The Christians.
Start with the Olympic Oration by Lysias:
http://classics.mit.edu/Lysias/lys.33.html
Theres also a Funeral Oration:
http://classics.mit.edu/Lysias/lys.2.html