Vote for the Greatest German?
Claire Easthope
asked to vote for the greatest famous British person from a choice of 100
both living and dead. I heard that a German network is going to do the
German version but have banned Hitler! What sort of people would vote for
Hitler or is it just a moral position? I admire the way Germany has dealt
with its dark past and moved on so found this a curious story.
Johnny Hallyday - France's Elvis
Yeah they went from a semi-illiterate Austrian Socialist fascist like
Hitler to two illiterate Socialist facists like Fischer & Schroeder.
At least Hitler did not beat up German cops like Fischer.
Here is the little coward Fischer beating up a German cop with the
help of two of his left wing pals. I wish I had been there, I would
have kicked the living shit out of Fischer. Terrorist scum
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1250944.stm
My vote for the greatest German? Bach. He was pre-Germany's current
radical secularism.
a.th...@gmx.de
> References:
> <tHSsa.182$%Y2....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>
>"Claire Easthope" <lw0...@brunel.ac.uk> wrote in message news:<tHSsa.182$%Y2.1
>2...@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>...
sottises.
A.
Tomas Schild
The reaction of the British media to the announcement of the show
might go a long way towards explaining why this particular rule was
thought necessary: entertaining any such nomination and any amount
of votes, however minute, would be sure to overshadow the other
nominations. The British popular press in particular can be relied
on to seize on any imaginable Hitler connection, hovever tenuous,
in reporting from Germany. I can well imagine the headlines: "Hitler
vote on Wednesday" and "Hitler got 1.2% of votes" (with a mention,
as an afterthought, in the text of the article that person X won
with 42% of votes).
I wonder if the announcement would even have made the papers without
the Hitler angle?
Tomas Schild
Nusrat Rizvi
Hallyday - France's Elvis) wrote:
>"Claire Easthope" <lw0...@brunel.ac.uk> wrote in message news:<tHSsa.182$%Y2....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>...
>> We had a TV show here in the UK called Great Britons where the nation was
>> asked to vote for the greatest famous British person from a choice of 100
>> both living and dead. I heard that a German network is going to do the
>> German version but have banned Hitler! What sort of people would vote for
>> Hitler or is it just a moral position? I admire the way Germany has dealt
>> with its dark past and moved on so found this a curious story.
>
>Yeah they went from a semi-illiterate Austrian Socialist fascist like
>Hitler to two illiterate Socialist facists like Fischer & Schroeder.
>At least Hitler did not beat up German cops like Fischer.
>
>Here is the little coward Fischer beating up a German cop with the
>help of two of his left wing pals. I wish I had been there, I would
>have kicked the living shit out of Fischer. Terrorist scum
An article in the NY Times printed a while ago stated Mr. Fischer has
apologized to the policeman who brushed it off as deed of a youthful
protester of which I might add Germany at that time had millions.
Since the issue has been amicably decided between the offender and
the victim I suggest you seek other venues to attack Mr. Fischer.
Claire Easthope
because you never really answered the question which was not meant
offensively. But yes the British conservative press has allot to answer for
especially after the Helmut Kohl cartoon a few years ago. I wouldn't worry
too much about negative portrayals of Germany though compared to France
you've got of quite lightly!
"Tomas Schild" <tomas-...@schild.net> wrote in message
news:3ebb11f9.03050...@posting.google.com...
Jean Paul
> >> asked to vote for the greatest famous British person from a choice of 100
> >> both living and dead.
Find out more about Great Britons here:
Curt
2) Bach
3) Beethoven
4) Brahms
5) Werner von Braun
6) Marlene Dietrich
7) Gottlieb Daimler
8) Karl Benz
9) Ferdinand Porsche
10) Oskar Schindler
"Claire Easthope" <lw0...@brunel.ac.uk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:tHSsa.182$%Y2....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
inge
>
>
>
> At least Hitler did not beat up German cops like Fischer.
That he lacked the guts to do fight his battles personally is not
exactly a redeeming feature IMO, but YMMV.
inge
--
It is easier to stay out than get out.
- Mark Twain
===
<http://home.foni.net/~lyorn> -- Stories, RPG & stuff.
===
To send me priority mail, replace 'wildwusel' with 'lyorn'.
inge
I would guess that (if true) this has been done to keep teenage or
teenage-minded rebellion against authority from becoming a public
embarrassment. If that is the reason, they seem to assume that the type
of folks who'd nominate Hitler lack the brains to nominate one of his
"gang", or at least the coordination to find one they could hype enough
to be noticed.
But all that is just idle speculation.
If I had to nominate a person, I'd probably be Gutenberg.
Heiko Leberer
1 Gutenberg
2 Einstein
3 Bach
4 Dürer
5 Leibniz (not the one with the cookies)
6 Goethe
7 Beethoven
8 Gauss
9 Jean Paul
10 One of Daimler/Benz/Diesel couldn't decide which
Ingeborg Denner
Heiko Leberer wrote:
>
>
> 1 Gutenberg
> 2 Einstein
> 3 Bach
> 4 Dürer
> 5 Leibniz (not the one with the cookies)
> 6 Goethe
> 7 Beethoven
> 8 Gauss
> 9 Jean Paul
> 10 One of Daimler/Benz/Diesel couldn't decide which
What about the Doctors? Koch, Virchow...
adrian
Heiko Leberer
>
>
> Heiko Leberer wrote:
>>
>>
>> 1 Gutenberg
>> 2 Einstein
>> 3 Bach
>> 4 Dürer
>> 5 Leibniz (not the one with the cookies)
>> 6 Goethe
>> 7 Beethoven
>> 8 Gauss
>> 9 Jean Paul
>> 10 One of Daimler/Benz/Diesel couldn't decide which
>
> What about the Doctors? Koch, Virchow...
>
Not bad either. There are many that deserve the attribute great.
The reason I chose the above mentioned ones is, that the achievements of
those are outstanding, not so dependend on work of others (of course the
depended on work of others too) like that of many other great persons.
E.g. Koch depended a lot on Pollender and Davaine, which detected the Antrax
bacillus. The tubercle bacillus can be seen as another one in a row.
On the other hand, Virchow and his work on cellular pathology would also be
an example for outstanding work.
Heiko
Ingeborg Denner
adrian wrote:
>
> How about the Red BARON, Manstein, Rommell and Boris Becker.
Small fry.
Sigmund
You love music but dont like philosophers, do you? :-) Me neither, but
there is no sector in which germans have been more dominant: Kant,
Hegel, Marx, Nietszche, Heidegger,..
I find that Bach and Beethoven should become Bach or Beethoven.
Similarly it is Gauss or Leibnitz (which means Gauss, no way)
Similarly Einstein is Einstein or Planck or Eisemberg or ... whoever
those good for nothing phisicians may be ;-)
Pity that Sacher is an austrian, he would deserve a mention of honor..
Heiko Leberer
>
>
> You love music
Yes, a lot.
> but dont like philosophers, do you? :-)
"don't like" is to harsh a (three) word.
> Me neither, but
> there is no sector in which germans have been more dominant: Kant,
> Hegel, Marx, Nietszche, Heidegger,..
My problem in this case (similar to the placing of Goethe) is to *measure*
the achievements, I can't. I don't know, how to rate this. OK, let's assume
I have to chose some philosophers...
Kant? Yes! Hegel? Read too few from him, don't know. Marx? Read a lot but
repressed most of it, always thought he's writing about another world.
Nietzsche? Difficult. Zarathustra consists of 4 or 5 patterns repeated ad
finitum, boring. His work on humor indicates he had no idea, hmm leaves me
undecided. Heidegger's missing distance to the Nazis won't let me place him
among the above, let's replace him with Schopenhauer.
>
> I find that Bach and Beethoven should become Bach or Beethoven.
>
May be we should have a single entry for the different categories.
>
> Similarly it is Gauss or Leibnitz (which means Gauss, no way)
Why? Leibniz did differential and integral calculus in the same time as
Newton and succeeded where Newton failed (second and higher derivatives).
He created the notation for calculus and he examined momentum, kinetic and
potential energy.
And we have to thank for his work on determinants and the methods to solve
systems of linear equations. I'd rate him above Gauss. Gauss had his best
time when he worked together with Weber. He didn't achieve that much any
more after Weber had to leave Göttingen.
>
> Similarly Einstein is Einstein or Planck or Eisemberg or ... whoever
> those good for nothing phisicians may be ;-)
>
> Pity that Sacher is an austrian, he would deserve a mention of honor..
The guy whith the cake or the one with the whip? A whip of honor ;-)
Heiko
Sigmund
Heiko Leberer wrote:
> Sigmund wrote:
> among the above, let's replace him with Schopenhauer.
I must read his masterpiece ;-) "über die weiber"
>
>
...
> Why? Leibniz did differential and integral calculus in the same time as
> Newton and succeeded where Newton failed (second and higher derivatives).
> He created the notation for calculus and he examined momentum, kinetic and
> potential energy.
I dont like his notation :-)
> And we have to thank for his work on determinants and the methods to solve
> systems of linear equations. I'd rate him above Gauss. Gauss had his best
> time when he worked together with Weber. He didn't achieve that much any
> more after Weber had to leave Göttingen.
>
Because of the sheer mass of Gauss contribution: there is no area of
math that he didnt touch in some way. You could make a package of his
comtemporaries and you would still not match him :-)
Many of his findings went unpublished, so he didnt always get credit
from them.
I find especially important his methodology because he showed the path
for the rigorous method in math.
bye
Sigmund
>
> Heiko
>
Tomas Schild
> I can see a carpet and hear sweeping sounds in relation to that comment
> because you never really answered the question which was not meant
> offensively.
>
If my answer should have read as that kind of non-answer I am
sorry. It was not meant as such. Let me try again:
- There _is_ a minority of some percents that might vote for
Hitler, composed of:
- Nazis (obviously)
- people who like to provoke/rebel
- people who subscribe to a nonjudgemental definition of 'greatness'
- Hitler as an also-run would hijack public attention, here and
abroad, to the detriment of debate on the other nominations.
Tomas Schild
Angelika Tobisch
> My vote for the greatest German? Bach. He was pre-Germany's current
> radical secularism.
******************
Let me just say that I consider that a compliment.
Claire Easthope
I found that list very interesting particularly the part about
'non-judgemental greatness', Hitler's CV would have looked impressive until
we contacted some Jewish or Opposition party referees! :-)
"Tomas Schild" <tomas-...@schild.net> wrote in message
news:3ebb11f9.03050...@posting.google.com...
DieInterim
Is a humble, friendly person who embraces strangers and takes an
interest into learning from other nationalities and cultures. One who
finds family to be of great importance and the wordly ways to be
offensive and works to unite people for the good of the many. One who
cares about service to others more than oneself. It is those who fall
into this outline that are the Greatest Germans who have ever lived?
Perhaps Martin Luder of Eisleben(IMHO)is one such person.
Regards,
Blake
Parisi & Watson
"DieInterim" <t...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:a86203f2.03050...@posting.google.com...
I just checked in google.de, and I was never before aware the 'Luder' was a
name in the family background. Did it have the same slang connotation in the
16th century as today? What about Frau Luder?? Talk about accidental
ironies...
Robert.
wer...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
> Is a humble, friendly person who embraces strangers and...
> Perhaps Martin Luder of Eisleben(IMHO)is one such person.
Martin Luther? nah, he was an obnoxious firebrand...
the name you were looking for was Albert Schweitzer.
...but this is a real stupid topic, so I'll killfile it now
--
/"\ ASCII... ._. | Woodward & Bernstein Watergate Papers @ UT
\ / on Usenet /v\ | <http://www.hrc.utexas.edu>
X ANYTHING ELSE /( )\ | R.I.P. Edgar F. Codd (79) April 18, 2003
/ \ IS BLOAT !! ^^ ^^ | (invented the relational data base concept)
Heiko Leberer
May be we need to address this correctly as "Martin und das Luder --
Geheimnisse aus dem Hinterzimmer der Reformation".
Heiko
Ingeborg Denner
Claire Easthope wrote:
>
> Thanks,
>
> I found that list very interesting particularly the part about
> 'non-judgemental greatness', Hitler's CV would have looked impressive until
> we contacted some Jewish or Opposition party referees! :-)
If you define "great" as "successful" - he lost, that nullifies
everything. If you define "great" as "defining an epoche, changing the
face of the world, creating whole new concepts out of rather thin air"
you'd have to list him. Using that definition, BTW, you'd end up with a
great lot of unpleasent characters on your list.
Ingeborg Denner
If you mean the reformer, Martin Luther -- while he was tremendously
influential considering world history and IMO caused a lot of good or at
least progress which led to good, he was an antisemite and his role in
the Peasants' War is less than glorious.
Still I'd probably list him, but not for being a "good" person (I would
not list anyone for being a good person - it's in invitation to a
mudslinging contest), but for having the right idea, being courageous
and clever about it, and changing the world.
Christian Roessler
> If you mean the reformer, Martin Luther -- while he was tremendously
> influential considering world history and IMO caused a lot of good or at
> least progress which led to good, he was an antisemite and his role in
> the Peasants' War is less than glorious.
War das nicht Thomas Münzer, der sagte:
"Zu Wittenberg, das sanfte Fleisch;
es leckt den Arsch des Adels."
SCNR: Christian
E.F.Schelby
>adrian wrote:
>>
>> How about the Red BARON, Manstein, Rommell and Boris Becker.
>
>Small fry.
How about Clausewitz? Great white father
of diplomacy by other means?
E.
Ingeborg Denner
Interesting, but he'd never make my top 10. To decide if he might be a
candidate for the top 100 I'd have to do a lot more research on his
background and impact, which I won't do unless I have a better reason
for it than a usenet argument.
DieInterim
Yes I do speak of Luther, and behold the word "good" is in quote. I
selected Luther on the basis of his work involved in finding common
threads in the many dialects of the German language. Without his
influence many Germans may still need a translator to speak to
neighbors, but then again, someone else would have done this
eventually.
Now he (Luther) was many things, but he was an important part of
German heritage. And what a powerful influence he has had on the world
ouside of Germany as well.
Please look at what I wrote closely, Luther was "perhaps" an example,
but I was really speaking of the unknown quiet souls who work to
better our lives everyday. This person could be your neighbor, your
postman, maybe even someone here @ soc.culture.german . It is they who
are the greatest German(s), period.
It is so sad that the word "good" has become the target of
opportunity; it does not mean "Holy" by anymeans. Perhaps this word
has a different value from culture to culture.
I always welcome your input Ms. Denner, thank you.
Blake Dodson (DieInterim)
E.F.Schelby
>"E.F.Schelby" wrote:
>> How about Clausewitz? Great white father
>> of diplomacy by other means?
>
>Interesting, but he'd never make my top 10. To decide if he might be a
>candidate for the top 100 I'd have to do a lot more research on his
>background and impact, which I won't do unless I have a better reason
>for it than a usenet argument.
I was just playing. Anyway, they do study him in our professional
army.
E.
Sigmund
Yes I daresay that his influence certainly surpasses that from any of
the others in the list, including Marx. He can be considered to be the
founder of protestant thought at large (there had been similar movements
before, but none of them successful).
bye
Rejnold Byzio
> What about the Doctors? Koch, Virchow...
What about Fritz Haber and Carl Bosch?
From http://www-lehre.informatik.uni-osnabrueck.de/~fbstark/seminare/haupt/ausarbeitung.pdf
| Derzeit verdanken mindestens zwei Milliarden Menschen ihr
| Leben dem Umstand, daß die Proteine ihres Körpers mit
| Stickstoff aus einer das Haber-Bosch-Verfahren nutzenden
| Industrieproduktion aufgebaut wurden.
Giving life to two billion people could be called greatness.
Rejnold
Stefan Doll
> "E.F.Schelby" wrote:
>>
>> Ingeborg Denner <wild...@gmx.de> wrote:
>> How about Clausewitz? Great white father
>> of diplomacy by other means?
>
> Interesting, but he'd never make my top 10. To decide if he might be a
> candidate for the top 100 I'd have to do a lot more research on his
> background and impact, which I won't do unless I have a better reason
> for it than a usenet argument.
Another interesting point is how much of the credit ought to go to his wife
anyways. The book was published by her IIRC, and had not been finished when
he died.
One of the ideas in the book is that war ought to have an aim - something
you want to accomplish by it. If that lesson had been learned more
thoroughly we'd have been spared Germany's entry into WWI.
Stefan
inge
>
<all snipped, but ACK>
BTW, I gave some more thought to the "Bach or Beethoven (or whatever
composer)" question.
I do not think that Beethoven would qualify. I love his music, but I do
not see groundbreaking accomplishments here, nor a strong influence on
later composers.
Richard Wagner IMO was far more influential musically, mythically and
politically, although not necessarily for good. Among other things, most
of today's German heavy metal bands seem to trace their roots back to
him (many Gothic bands probably could, too), and the some of the
dramatic language he created is used to this day.
As the greatest of German composers I'd nominate Bach. And not for the
music he'd written, although I like it a lot, but for the
"wohltemperierte Stimmung", meaning, a tuning which allows music in all
keys to be played on an instrument without re-tuning it.
inge
--
It is easier to stay out than get out.
- Mark Twain
===
<http://home.foni.net/~lyorn> -- Stories, RPG & stuff.
===
To send me priority mail, replace 'wildwusel' with 'lyorn'.
inge
>
> Ingeborg Denner <wild...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> >"E.F.Schelby" wrote:
>
> >> How about Clausewitz?
> >
>
> army.
I very vaguely remember from history lessons that clinging to close to
Clausewitz instead of studying the American Civil War led to some of the
disasters in WWI (not that the whole thing wasn't a disaster), because
Clausewitz wrote from a different level of technology than what was in
use by WWI.
Do you know anything more about it, or is this just a misremembered
legend?
inge
--
It is easier to stay out than get out.
- Mark Twain
===
<http://home.foni.net/~lyorn> -- Stories, RPG & stuff.
===
To send me priority mail, replace 'wildwusel' with 'lyorn'.
Stefan Doll
> "Ingeborg Denner" <wild...@gmx.de>:
>
>> What about the Doctors? Koch, Virchow...
>
> What about Fritz Haber and Carl Bosch?
>
[...]
Haber is certainly difficult to evaluate. His scientific contributions were
great he even earned a noble price, but he was also known as the "father of
chemical warfare" having organized and directed the first large scale gas
attack in WWI. A very patriotic German he found himself being no longer
accepted as a German in 1933, because of his Jewish heritage. He was not
actually personally threatened, but decided to leave anyway.
http://www.nobel.se/chemistry/laureates/1918/haber-bio.html
http://www.woodrow.org/teachers/chemistry/institutes/1992/Haber.html
-Stefan
Parisi & Watson
> BTW, I gave some more thought to the "Bach or Beethoven (or whatever
> composer)" question.
>
> I do not think that Beethoven would qualify. I love his music, but I do
> not see groundbreaking accomplishments here, nor a strong influence on
> later composers.
>
> Richard Wagner IMO was far more influential musically, mythically and
> politically, although not necessarily for good. Among other things, most
> of today's German heavy metal bands seem to trace their roots back to
> him (many Gothic bands probably could, too), and the some of the
> dramatic language he created is used to this day.
I don't believe your assessment is historically accurate. Beethoven was much
more pivotal to the history of music than Wagner, because he initiated the
romantic revolution against the so-called classical music of Haydn and
Mozart that Wagner later brought to its most extreme expression. Certainly
both are giants of music, and our post-romantic era might feel more
immediate connection with Wagner, but surely wrenching a tradition loose and
starting it off in a new direction is a more fundamental contribution than
culminating an innovation that was begun by someone else. Also there are
many individual elements that were originally Beethoven's innovations and
that were used to great effect by the genius of Wagner, such as the
recurrence of themes from one movement of a symphony to another, and the
later Leitmotiv strategy of Wagner.
Robert.
Ingeborg Denner
Parisi & Watson wrote:
>
> "inge" <wild...@gmx.de> wrote in message news:3EB82B09...@gmx.de...
> > BTW, I gave some more thought to the "Bach or Beethoven (or whatever
> > composer)" question.
> >
> > I do not think that Beethoven would qualify. I love his music, but I do
> > not see groundbreaking accomplishments here, nor a strong influence on
> > later composers.
> >
> > Richard Wagner IMO was far more influential musically, mythically and
> > politically, although not necessarily for good. Among other things, most
> > of today's German heavy metal bands seem to trace their roots back to
> > him (many Gothic bands probably could, too), and the some of the
> > dramatic language he created is used to this day.
> [...]
>
> I don't believe your assessment is historically accurate. Beethoven was much
> more pivotal to the history of music than Wagner, because he initiated the
> romantic revolution against the so-called classical music of Haydn and
> Mozart that Wagner later brought to its most extreme expression.
I see Beethoven more as "late classical" and do not, I have to admit,
put too high a significance on the romantic period as far as music is
concerned -- Matters of taste. What you write about recurrent themes is
interesing, I have to listen for it. Do you have a specific piece in
mind?
Parisi & Watson
news:3EB920EC...@gmx.de...
> I see Beethoven more as "late classical" and do not, I have to admit,
> put too high a significance on the romantic period as far as music is
> concerned -- Matters of taste. What you write about recurrent themes is
> interesing, I have to listen for it. Do you have a specific piece in
> mind?
There are many examples, but probably the most obvious and best known is the
quick summary of the first three movements that occurs as an introduction to
the last movement of the ninth symphony.
Robert.
E.F.Schelby
>E.F.Schelby wrote:
>>
>> Ingeborg Denner <wild...@gmx.de> wrote:
>>
>> >"E.F.Schelby" wrote:
>>
>> >> How about Clausewitz?
>> >
>> >Interesting, but he'd never make my top 10.
>> I was just playing. Anyway, they do study him in our professional
>> army.
>
>I very vaguely remember from history lessons that clinging to close to
>Clausewitz instead of studying the American Civil War led to some of the
>disasters in WWI (not that the whole thing wasn't a disaster), because
>Clausewitz wrote from a different level of technology than what was in
>use by WWI.
I looked for my _On War_ paperback and couldn't find it. All I know
are three little things:
1) Clausewitz was translated into English in 1873 - too late for the
American Civil War. But since so many Germans fought in it, his work
was known to some of them.
2) This philosopher of war shares the fate of Nietzsche and others.
He's often quoted for things he didn't say, or he's misquoted and
interpreted ambiguously.
3)He is a product of a specific era: that of the wars of liberation
against Napoleon. Prussia was dirt poor after the mayhem, but
started remarkable reforms.
>Do you know anything more about it, or is this just a misremembered
>legend?
I don't know much more, Inge. I simply find it amusing that this
Prussian theorist is of interest to the American military. One can
almost say that it adopted him.
Consider: one of the major Allied objectives in past wars was the
eradication of the Prussian military caste and spirit. That was
done. So now it lives on in US military circles, with the world's
hyper power taking Clausewitz under its wings. <g>.
If you are, like some of us, a bi-cultural creature, you will
stumble over ironies, topsy-turvy things, and more. It is quite
an affliction, like seeing with two pairs of eyes fixed on one head.
Here is some Clausewitz stuff, and I hope you'll now let me off
the hook on the topic I tossed in for fun :-).
http://www-cgsc.army.mil/milrev/english/SepOct01/keisling.asp
http://www.sfu.ca/~dann.Backissues/nn6-1_14.htm
Greetings,
E
Heiko Leberer
For me it's even more terse in the 5th, where the first movement's horn
motive reappeares in the third movement. After a pianissimo opening in the
third movement, the horn motive immediately reintroduces the threatening of
the first movement. It's used to signal the struggling while getting away
from the initial threat ("Das Schicksal klopft an die Tür") to the triumph
over the darkness.
There are also few uncertainties in linking emotions to his pieces. You can
feel the threat of the 5th beginning and the triumph and rejoicing at the
end. A certainty not found in prior art. Of course you can feel the sorrow
in several requiems or joy in other pieces, but those emotions were treated
as static ones.
You can "see" the country life listening to the Pastorale, nothing I can
experience with earlier pieces.
BTW Beethoven was the first German musician that became a "professional",
meaning he could live from the music he wrote as a composer, not needing a
patron or an employment at a court.
Heiko
adrian
>
DieInterim
DFD
OK, once you voted for me, what is it that want?
DFD