Germany's Love Affair With Classical Music
IWjmusa
Europe as they marched through each country.
No doubt Germany loves and *respects* classical music so much that they had an
orginized effort to *steal* it!
Report comes from today's Chicago Times. Holocost victims seeking the stollen
violin's. Of course the Germans are demanding *documentation* that proves that
their prisoners actually owned the violins.
I'm sure that all the camp prisoners had such documentation available. Better
yet, I'm sure that the German's gave their victims receipts as they pulled the
violins from their victime arms. Go figure!
mira
inge
>
> Today's new reports have Nazi Germany *stealing* all the best violin's in
> Europe as they marched through each country.
>
Some people steal anything worth stealing... Especially in war when it's
called 'looting'.
inge
--
I used to drive a Heisenbergmobile, but every time I looked at the
speedometer, I got lost.
===
<http://home.foni.net/~lyorn> -- Stories, RPG & stuff.
IWjmusa
>IWjmusa wrote:
>> Today's new reports have Nazi Germany *stealing* all the best violin's in
>> Europe as they marched through each country.
>>
>
>Some people steal anything worth stealing...
So true. Well at least the victims can't claim that the theives were stupid
being that they stole something that's worth something.
However, 'looting' is generally used during while going from village to village
or in a riot and stealing *everything* that has even a little value. It also
sound like the word itself gives the act a *little* credit. More so in war
time as it's expected.
I don't think that I'd give the orginized stealing of these violins the term
'looting'.
The ironic part of course is the great respect that German's in general express
toward *their* classical music and the famous composers they take credit
for....
While they stole the very violins themselves. How ironic....to *steal* class
and culture.
Especially in war when it's
>called 'looting'.
It's stealing and worse to now claim that the victims have no receipt. When's
the last time you heard that a mugger gives a receipt for your watch?
mira
Patrick Walz-Damidaux
>IWjmusa <iwj...@aol.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:20010820162126...@mb-ct.aol.com...
> So true. Well at least the victims can't claim that the theives were
stupid
> being that they stole something that's worth something.
Lol, my grandmother used to tell me how Allied soldiers stole her fake
jewelry (she had hidden away the real one).
> However, 'looting' is generally used during while going from village to
village
> or in a riot and stealing *everything* that has even a little value. It
also
> sound like the word itself gives the act a *little* credit. More so in
war
> time as it's expected.
Pardon me? Looting is supposed to be better than stealing? Dunno, but my
moral standard tells me otherwise.
> I don't think that I'd give the orginized stealing of these violins the
term
> 'looting'.
Now that´s true. I don´t know about the article. Did it say on whose behalf
the instruments were stolen? There were lots of Nazi officials who liked to
"collect" precious items. So was it the (private) work of governmental
officials or were they stolen for something like the "Linzer Museum"?
> The ironic part of course is the great respect that German's in general
express
> toward *their* classical music and the famous composers they take credit
> for....
>
> While they stole the very violins themselves. How ironic....to *steal*
class
> and culture.
Wow. So probably 60 millions of Germans stole classical violins?
Concerning the theft of culture: I work at a castle and after the war some
of the furniture was stolen by Americans. They didn´t leave a receipt. I
don´t think the furniture will ever be returned. That´s sad as there was a
really nice bed belonging to the Duchess of Nassau. Perhaps Mrs. Albright
...? ;)
> Especially in war when it's
> >called 'looting'.
>
> It's stealing and worse to now claim that the victims have no receipt.
When's
> the last time you heard that a mugger gives a receipt for your watch?
Goering was well known for buying pieces of art at substandard prices. His
victims got a receipt. That´s what you get for asking *eg* - I see your
point though.
Do they literally mean receipt (which would be rather ludicrous) or do they
generally mean some kind of proof?
What would you do? Simply trust anyone who comes and claims: I had a very
precious violine but it was robbed from me. I don´t have any proof that it
ever belonged to me but I want it back.
> mira
Regards
Patrick
Rafael A Caraballo
> IWjmusa wrote:
>>
>> Today's new reports have Nazi Germany *stealing* all the best violin's in
>> Europe as they marched through each country.
>>
>
> Some people steal anything worth stealing... Especially in war when it's
> called 'looting'.
>
> inge
>
It's possible - I'd like to think if the government knew about it, they'd
make some effort at recompense, like they did with the slave laborer
situation
maxh
My father's house and anybody else's house got blundered and looted by the
French forces in the South-western part of Germany.
They stole all our antique furniture, beautiful old guns made by my
grandfather, just about everything worth taking.
On top of that, the French also dismantled every factory and took the stuff
back to France.
Are we Germans going to be compensated for that?
No fat chance!!!!!!
Max
Rafael A Caraballo wrote in message ...
IWjmusa
>>IWjmusa <iwj...@aol.com>
>> So true. Well at least the victims can't claim that the theives were
>stupid
>> being that they stole something that's worth something.
>
>Lol, my grandmother used to tell me how Allied soldiers stole her fake
>jewelry (she had hidden away the real one).
LOL. That's real funny. Too bad the Jews being loaded into the boxcars could
not be so cleaver as to give the Nazi pig a fake violin while they hid the real
one. Don't pad youself on the back too hard! Remember....you wern't there.
>
>> However, 'looting' is generally used during while going from village to
>village
>> or in a riot and stealing *everything* that has even a little value. It
>also
>> sound like the word itself gives the act a *little* credit. More so in
>war
>> time as it's expected.
>Pardon me? Looting is supposed to be better than stealing? Dunno, but my
>moral standard tells me otherwise.
I doubt it from your harty LOL posted above. By-the-way, I'll only *pardon*
you for not knowing satire when you see it.
>Now that´s true. I don´t know about the article. Did it say on whose behalf
>the instruments were stolen? There were lots of Nazi officials who liked to
>"collect" precious items. So was it the (private) work of governmental
>officials or were they stolen for something like the "Linzer Museum"?
Hey! Who knows in Germany? The land of the famous ....point the fingr to
someone else syndrom.
>
>> The ironic part of course is the great respect that German's in general
>express
>> toward *their* classical music and the famous composers they take credit
>> for....
>> While they stole the very violins themselves. How ironic....to *steal*
>class
>> and culture.
>
>Wow. So probably 60 millions of Germans stole classical violins?
>
Yada Yada.... Heard it all before. 'He did it', 'I was not there', 'Don't
balme 60 million', 'I was not born', ....Anf the best one yet, 'no one was
there'.
So what else is new?
>Concerning the theft of culture: I work at a castle and after the war some
>of the furniture was stolen by Americans.
Right. I forgot *that* excuse.
>They didn´t leave a receipt. I
>don´t think the furniture will ever be returned. That´s sad as there was a
>really nice bed belonging to the Duchess of Nassau. Perhaps Mrs. Albright.
You German's got a real bug up your ass over Albright huh? What's that all
about? The past came back to bite you in the ass, and it came in the form of a
women?
>Goering was well known for buying pieces of art at substandard prices. His
>victims got a receipt. That´s what you get for asking *eg* - I see your
>point though.
Yeah. I'm *SURE* Goering had a fucking receipt book in his pocket written in
Yiddish, just to give out to the Jews while he kicked the gold out of their
mouth. Right!
>Do they literally mean receipt (which would be rather ludicrous) or do they
>generally mean some kind of proof?
Receipts usually are proof of ownership. At least in the first world.
>What would you do? Simply trust anyone who comes and claims: I had a very
>precious violine but it was robbed from me. I don´t have any proof that it
>ever belonged to me but I want it back.
Well jump in. I'm sure there's a class action lawsuit planned. Were you
there?
mira
IWjmusa
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010819/wl/nazi_violins_1.html
mira
IWjmusa
>What about the looting by the allied forces in Germany?
>My father's house and anybody else's house got blundered and looted by the
>French forces in the South-western part of Germany.
You're right. Never mind. Keep the violins and play them with *pure* grace
and class.
mira
Patrick Walz-Damidaux
> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010819/wl/nazi_violins_1.html
> >>IWjmusa <iwj...@aol.com>
> >> So true. Well at least the victims can't claim that the theives were
> >stupid
> >> being that they stole something that's worth something.
> >
> >Lol, my grandmother used to tell me how Allied soldiers stole her fake
> >jewelry (she had hidden away the real one).
>
>
> LOL. That's real funny. Too bad the Jews being loaded into the boxcars
could
> not be so cleaver as to give the Nazi pig a fake violin while they hid the
real
> one. Don't pad youself on the back too hard! Remember....you wern't
there.
Bah, I don´t believe in national guilt - neither do I believe in national
pride and jingoism. Must be hard for some people to swallow.
BTW, you left out a stereotype: The Nazi pig had a duelling scar on the
cheek and small glasses. And while playing on the stolen violine they
clicked their heels and shouted "Wurstel mit Sauerkraut."
Life can be so easy if you live in your little world populated by
stereotypes.
> I doubt it from your harty LOL posted above. By-the-way, I'll only
*pardon*
> you for not knowing satire when you see it.
Lol, as a European I am quite accustomed to the concepts of irony, sarcasm,
satire and stuff like that - I even smell a troll 500 clicks against the
wind.
> Hey! Who knows in Germany? The land of the famous ....point the fingr to
> someone else syndrom.
Hmm, the stink gets worse. I think I should have smelled that one from even
farther away.
> Yada Yada.... Heard it all before. 'He did it', 'I was not there',
'Don't
> balme 60 million', 'I was not born', ....Anf the best one yet, 'no one
was
> there'.
> So what else is new?
I am not Jesus, so I wouldn´t balm 60 millions.
> >Concerning the theft of culture: I work at a castle and after the war
some
> >of the furniture was stolen by Americans.
>
> Right. I forgot *that* excuse.
Yeah, I know. The valiant G.I.s weren´t looting.
> You German's got a real bug up your ass over Albright huh? What's that
all
> about? The past came back to bite you in the ass, and it came in the form
of a
> women?
Since when is Mrs. Albright more than one woman?
No, there was some fuss some time ago about the Albright familiy having
stolen art after the war. Excuse me, it surely wasn´t stolen and the
Albright familiy is bound to have a receipt for it. Because in the first
world you get a receipt for buying things.
Appearently law suits are only filed against non-Americans.
> >Goering was well known for buying pieces of art at substandard prices.
His
> >victims got a receipt. That´s what you get for asking *eg* - I see your
> >point though.
>
> Yeah. I'm *SURE* Goering had a fucking receipt book in his pocket written
in
> Yiddish, just to give out to the Jews while he kicked the gold out of
their
> mouth. Right!
Ahh, another stereotype. Really refreshing.
> >Do they literally mean receipt (which would be rather ludicrous) or do
they
> >generally mean some kind of proof?
>
> Receipts usually are proof of ownership. At least in the first world.
There are other kinds of proof. Like a photograph, an old document of
insurance for the violine etc.
> Well jump in. I'm sure there's a class action lawsuit planned. Were you
> there?
Well, in a country where you get money for microwaving your cat it is bound
to be one of the less stupid law-suits.
I don´t get your attitude. I am basically agreeing with you - the violines
must be returned. But I don´t understand the agressive tone of your
postings.
But what would use-net be without it´s fair share of trolls who must
compensate for some slight or other?
> mira
Regards
Patrick
Michael Khan
inge wrote:
> Some people steal anything worth stealing... Especially in war when it's
> called 'looting'.
This probably was not looting. It sounds more like organized theft, such
as that of the works of art from museums and private collections in the
occupied countries.
Juergen Hubert
"IWjmusa" <iwj...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010820162126...@mb-ct.aol.com...
Stealing objects of cultural value from occupied people and territories is
an old tradition. Just ask the British...
The theft of these violins was, of course, a crime, and all those violins
should be returned to their former owners if possible, but all in all, this
kind of theft isn't an exceptionally unusual one.
- Juergen Hubert
Juergen Hubert
In case he and his family actually _have_ violins...
- Juergen Hubert
IWjmusa
>> You're right. Never mind. Keep the violins and play them with *pure*
>grace
>> and class.
>
>In case he and his family actually _have_ violins...
Right! Although I ment that as the collective Germany. IMO, keep them and
impress the world for years to come with the *qualities* that come out of
Germany.
mira
Andreas Thomsen
>
> >"Juergen Hubert
>
> >> You're right. Never mind. Keep the violins and play them with *pure*
> >grace
> >> and class.
> >
> >In case he and his family actually _have_ violins...
>
> Right! Although I ment that as the collective Germany. IMO, keep them and
> Germany.
>
> mira
It's called "fingerpointing", isn't it ?
--
Andreas Thomsen
email: tho...@uni-bonn.de
IWjmusa
>>IWjmusa <iwj...@aol.com>
So Patrick, what's the 'Troll" crap about. I didn't write the story.
Every time a German gets pressed up on a subject on the internet, they yell
'troll'. Meanwhile this is an international subject that envolve *culture* and
*germany*. So how do you find the subject out-of-order? Is it because I think
it sucks? Well....it does and to defend it is very telling of the German
*sterotype* mind-set.
So you were saying?
>> >Lol, my grandmother used to tell me how Allied soldiers stole her fake
>> >jewelry (she had hidden away the real one).
>>
>> LOL. That's real funny. Too bad the Jews being loaded into the boxcars
>could
>> not be so cleaver as to give the Nazi pig a fake violin while they hid the
>real
>> one. Don't pad youself on the back too hard! Remember....you wern't
>there.
>Bah, I don´t believe in national guilt
excuses!
> Must be hard for some people to swallow.
>BTW, you left out a stereotype:
Hard to swallow? Are you kidding? You think this is the first time that I've
heard German's come up short in the human area? Nope! I guess that makes me a
troll again, huh? Cause German's can't show class, I'm a troll.
>BTW, you left out a stereotype: The Nazi pig had a duelling scar on the
>cheek and small glasses
Wow. A relitive perhaps?
>And while playing on the stolen violine they
>clicked their heels and shouted "Wurstel mit Sauerkraut."
You think just by calling *that* a sterotype, that it discounts the
possabilities that it was a reality?
>Life can be so easy if you live in your little world populated by
>stereotypes.
You can call the holocast and ww2 a *sterotype* if you like. Then there is
reality!
>Lol, as a European I am quite accustomed to the concepts of irony, sarcasm,
>satire and stuff like that - I even smell a troll 500 clicks against the
>wind.
Right.
>Since when is Mrs. Albright more than one woman?
I see. I thought you were talking about Madeline Albright, Nevermind.
later
mira
IWjmusa
>> Right! Although I ment that as the collective Germany. IMO, keep them and
>> impress the world for years to come with the *qualities* that come out of
>> Germany.
>It's called "fingerpointing", isn't it ?
>--
Yeah......Did I get the country wrong?
mira
Andreas Thomsen
Is this really your favorite pastime ?
A.
Andreas Thomsen
>
> IWjmusa wrote:
> >
> > >Andreas Thomsen
> >
> > >> Right! Although I ment that as the collective Germany. IMO, keep them and
> >
> > >> impress the world for years to come with the *qualities* that come out of
> > >> Germany.
> >
> > >It's called "fingerpointing", isn't it ?
> > >--
> >
> > Yeah......Did I get the country wrong?
> >
> > mira
>
> Is this really your favorite pastime ?
>
If yes, stay tuned. For as most of us know, the german nazis
also robbed paintings, books, furniture, chinaware, cutlery,
statues, radios, even dresses and shoes. They also confiscated
houses, gardens, factories, shops, cars, even ships. I do not
know if they happened to steal an airplane.
So ... lots of discussions to start... and lots of fingers to
point.
But in fact, everybody would be glad if the only thing the nazis
were responsible of was robbing, and not mass murder.
Now let's return to the discussion.
IWjmusa
>IWjmusa wrote:
>>
>> >Andreas Thomsen
>>
>> >> Right! Although I ment that as the collective Germany. IMO, keep them
>and
>>
>> >> impress the world for years to come with the *qualities* that come out
>of
>> >> Germany.
>>
>> >It's called "fingerpointing", isn't it ?
>> >--
>>
>> Yeah......Did I get the country wrong?
>>
>> mira
>
>Is this really your favorite pastime ?
>
Nope. Not at all. Again, I did not write the article nor was the article
written about a subject with nothing other then speculation as to what country
it was about, and I started to point to Germany.
The article itself was about Germany. Is it your favorite past time to squash
any subject about Germany that sometimes points out some serious truths?
I'm just amazed at how many times I've heard from German's just how *great* the
country's violin players are and how no other country has such
*culture*.....Only then to read this article..God only knows where the piano's
came from!
I find it funny actually.
mira
Andreas Thomsen
Ok. I've got a piano made in Britain. Shall I have a look ? It's made
in the 1980ties, though, and cost me about 1000 $ :-((.
And what the hell is the report between the greatness of a violin-player
and the greed of a government-appointed looter ?
There's a small Beethoven museum in Bonn. Maybe Beethoven went around
stealing pianoes - and that's what he's got his deafness from ? :-))
I got yet another topic for you:
Hitler seems to have loved Disney's Mickey-Mouse films (besides Wagner
operas, of course). Now is that a subject for discussion ?
Not to mention Henry Ford I. and his engagement in antisemitic
propaganda
(protocols of the elders of zion). Yet the Fort -T became _very_
popular...
Go and get a good history book on Hitler, the Nazis, WWII and the
holocaust...
There is plenty of them written in English - and very good ones.
But even better might be the Klemperer diaries 1933-1945. There's an
English translation. (cf Amazon.com -> Klemperer/diaries)
Then you can go and post a page a day. Will keep us busy for years.
And every time someone dares to throw in a remark about that - even
though
he/she loves music,painting,literature,sports etc - he/she was born
after
1970, you may say "ts,ts,ts" :-))
regards,
IWjmusa
>If yes, stay tuned. For as most of us know, the german nazis
>also robbed paintings, books, furniture, chinaware, cutlery,
>statues, radios, even dresses and shoes. They also confiscated
Good for you Andreas. Nothing wrong with a little nationalism from time to
time, if it's kept in check.
mira
IWjmusa
>And what the hell is the report between the greatness of a violin-player
>and the greed of a government-appointed looter ?
Well it would appear that not *all* the great violins ended up in a museum but
rather in the hands of the rich and talented....And we *all* know that a
violinist is *only* as good as the violin itself.
>I got yet another topic for you:
>Hitler seems to have loved Disney's Mickey-Mouse
Naw! I'm not looking for subjects nor am I looking for anti-German subjects
(as some want to claim as some type of defense), I just responded to a story
that crossed my path.
It appears that I found the story too be more of a surprise then a German would
find it to be....By the very reaction. Chill guys, nobody's going to take the
violins away from Germany in the near future.
mira
IWjmusa
>Go and get a good history book on Hitler, the Nazis, WWII and the
>holocaust...
>There is plenty of them written in English
Thanks but I'm much more interested in the German mind-set in general, not the
*nazi* era that you're pushing. Remember, I'm not of the school that seperated
the Nazi's from German's.
It's like saying that the *republicians* were at war in the Gulf, and not
America, just because a republician was in the president's office at the time.
I realize it's politically correct to refer to *those* Nazi's as being
non-german's. But then again, there is realtiy.
mira
Andreas Thomsen
Oh yeah. What about _individuals_ ? Please, do read those diaries -
maybe you'll have a look at a little bit of _reality_ rather than
_opinion_. You'll find that reality was much more horrible than
stealing of works of art (the Nazis even sometimes did not disdain
stealing food from the kitchen during "control visits" at Jewish-German
households). But at the same time you'll find that those people
who tried to help, were Germans, too, as many of the victims in Germany
considered themselves Germans to the very end.
I think I'll go and write a small text on "the mechanics of
fingerpointing" - and how to do it well and in a professional way.
<SARCASM ON>
The first lesson is: never talk about individuals, never name
organisations, never cite sources, never name time and place,
or refer to any sort of context etc.
_Always_ accuse or denounce anonymous collectivities.
Preferably address a collectivity that englobes about 50% of
your audience (cf. soc.culture.german), to start a lively
discussion.
A somewhat involved question is whether to use the definite
article or not. It is safer to say "Xs did" (Xs= Germans,
Americans, French, Chinese, Russians, Turks, Men, Christians,
Muslims, Black, White etc) but the stronger effect will be
obtained saying "the Xs" (the Gs., the As., the Fs., the Chs.,
the Rs., the Ts., the Ms., the Chs., the Ms., the Bs., the Ws.)
with a small risk however of being met with a counter-example.
But if so, that will provide you with a wonderful occasion of
telling your counterpart "why are you being defensive" ? or
"you're in denial" etc. or even "don't distract attention of
what _you_ did" - and mind the "tu quoque" ("you did it too")
being admissible in court, but not in public discussion.
And if that is not enough, as a last resort remember there's
always the question "will you stop beating your wife?" -
it's a sure winner.
<SARCASM OFF>
IWjmusa
>IWjmusa wrote:
>> I realize it's politically correct to refer to *those* Nazi's as being
>> non-german's. But then again, there is realtiy.
>Oh yeah. What about _individuals_ ? Please, do read those diaries -
>maybe you'll have a look at a little bit of _reality_ rather than
>_opinion_. You'll find that reality was much more horrible than
>stealing of works of art
Andreas. I understand that you don't like Nazi's. Good for you.
Now about the article........
>I think I'll go and write a small text on "the mechanics of
>fingerpointing" - and how to do it well and in a professional way.
Well then, may I suggest that you start by understanding that the very nature
of 'fingerpointing', at least in English, is to point away from one's self (the
quilty party) and to cast guilt elsewhere.
Having said that, *no-one* here is *fingerpointing*. It was an
article....published. Now if you have a problem with the *facts* of the
article, I suggest that you contact it's author.
Don't try to kill the messenger!
mira
Andreas Thomsen
Mira, thank for the linguistic explanation - I always like to learn.
As for the facts: you did _not_ start with citing an article,
but with a statement without any reference:
<start of quotation>
>Today's new reports have Nazi Germany *stealing* all the best violin's in
>Europe as they marched through each country.
>
>No doubt Germany loves and *respects* classical music so much that they
>had an orginized effort to *steal* it!
>
>Report comes from today's Chicago Times. Holocost victims seeking the
>stollen violin's. Of course the Germans are demanding *documentation* that
>proves thattheir prisoners actually owned the violins.
>I'm sure that all the camp prisoners had such documentation available.
>Better yet, I'm sure that the German's gave their victims receipts as they
>pulled the violins from their victime arms. Go figure!
<end of quotation>
It is not the message, nor the messager - but the way the message is
presented, that is provocative.
Anyway, here's a verse that came to my mind when thinking of Germans
that loved classical music (yes I know that since WWI (!) he didn't
want to be taken for a German - still he was said to never have lost
his German accent):
Einstein, disguised as Robin Hood
With his memories in a trunk
Passed this way an hour ago
With his friend, a jealous monk
He looked so immaculately frightful
As he bummed a cigarette
Then he went off sniffing drainpipes
And reciting the alphabet
Now you would not think to look at him
But he was famous long ago
For playing the electric violin
On Desolation Row
Patrick Walz-Damidaux
> >Patrick Walz-Damidaux"
>
> >>IWjmusa <iwj...@aol.com>
>
> So Patrick, what's the 'Troll" crap about. I didn't write the story.
You wrote a generalizing posting that was over the top. Full of stereotypes
and fingerpointing.
> Every time a German gets pressed up on a subject on the internet, they
yell
> 'troll'. Meanwhile this is an international subject that envolve
*culture* and
> *germany*. So how do you find the subject out-of-order? Is it because I
think
> it sucks? Well....it does and to defend it is very telling of the German
> *sterotype* mind-set.
I didn´t say scg was the wrong place to post something about stolen
violines. I said your posting was trollish. It´s not about content but about
style.
> So you were saying?
You are a troll - not always but in clearly in this thread.
[snip example of trollishness]
> >Bah, I don´t believe in national guilt
>
> excuses!
For what? Does the American legal system know such a thing like "blood
guilt"?
It´s rather unheard of in civilized countries.
> > Must be hard for some people to swallow.
> >BTW, you left out a stereotype:
>
> Hard to swallow? Are you kidding? You think this is the first time that
I've
> heard German's come up short in the human area? Nope! I guess that makes
me a
> troll again, huh? Cause German's can't show class, I'm a troll.
Perhaps you should hear out other sources as well. If I only read news from
www.americannaziparty.com I might one day get the impression that Jews and
Blacks are coming up short in the human area. Did you read some of the
comments posted regarding the article you linked (that´s where I got the
address from)? I always thought scg was full of drivel, but the this message
board really beat it. BTW: There was no mentioning of any "receipt" in your
link.
>
>
> >BTW, you left out a stereotype: The Nazi pig had a duelling scar on the
> >cheek and small glasses
>
> Wow. A relitive perhaps?
Cheap shot. But I expected something like this - the patterns of trolls are
predictable.
Most of my (male) relatives either died rather early in Russia or were in
German captivity since 1940.
> >And while playing on the stolen violine they
> >clicked their heels and shouted "Wurstel mit Sauerkraut."
>
> You think just by calling *that* a sterotype, that it discounts the
> possabilities that it was a reality?
Try playing the violine while clicking your heels and shouting "Wurstel mit
Sauerkraut". I guess Anne Sophie-Mutter would barely manage (she lacks the
duelling scar, too).
> >Life can be so easy if you live in your little world populated by
> >stereotypes.
>
> You can call the holocast and ww2 a *sterotype* if you like. Then there
is
> reality!
Your problem is: You don´t know much about the things you´re writing. So you
write about stereotypes which you know well. And then you get angry when
someone points out to you that your intellectual horizon concerning this
topic is rather narrow.
> >Lol, as a European I am quite accustomed to the concepts of irony,
sarcasm,
> >satire and stuff like that - I even smell a troll 500 clicks against the
> >wind.
>
> Right.
I also smell insecurity. People who suffer from this trait tend to switch
into attack mode at the slightest incident.
> >Since when is Mrs. Albright more than one woman?
>
> I see. I thought you were talking about Madeline Albright, Nevermind.
I was talking about your inability to spell the singular of "woman".
Nevermind.
Do you realize that you didn´t write a single line about the violines in
your last posting?
I guess the you don´t care about the violines, you simply wanted to post
some drivel.
You should read Andreas posting. He sums it up in a rather concise fashion.
I still am not sure whether you´ve got as much class as "mars".
> later
>
> mira
Regards
Patrick
IWjmusa
> >IWjmusa wrote:
>> Now about the article........
>>
>> >I think I'll go and write a small text on "the mechanics of
>> >fingerpointing"
>> Well then, may I suggest that you start by understanding that the very
>nature
>> of 'fingerpointing', at least in English, is to point away from one's self
>(the
>> quilty party) and to cast guilt elsewhere.
snip>
>It was an
>> article....published. Now if you have a problem with the *facts* of the
>> article, I suggest that you contact it's author.
>>
>> Don't try to kill the messenger!
>Mira, thanks for the linguistic explanation.
You're welcome.
>As for the facts: you did _not_ start with citing an article,
>but with a statement without any reference:
><start of quotation>
>
>>Today's new reports have Nazi Germany *stealing* all the best violin's in
>>Europe
O.K. What part of that statement missed the boat stating that it was a news
article? The fact that I missed the 's' on 'News'?
>>Report comes from today's Chicago Times.
What part of that statement was off base?
>It is not the message, nor the messager - but the way the message is
>presented, that is provocative.
It's a provocative subject. More so by seemingly defending it. If I were
German, I'd say "Shit....Give them back NOW'! I don't think that I'd give
someone shit because they find the matter discusting.
Remember Andreas, It's always (or almost alway) the German's who are running
around claiming to *own* culture. More so whenever it *ever* comes to
classical music. I've heard it over and over again....
Then, for such a story to pop up! Ha! yeah, it's said in a provoctive manner
and I think that's just fine!
mira
Andreas Thomsen
>
> >Andreas Thomsen
>
> > >IWjmusa wrote:
>
>
> Remember Andreas, It's always (or almost alway) the German's who are running
> around claiming to *own* culture. More so whenever it *ever* comes to
> classical music. I've heard it over and over again....
>
Oh well, there are some other nations/people/cultures that are good at
classical music - among them English, French, Russian, Jewish and
Japanese,
to mention a few....
> Then, for such a story to pop up! Ha! yeah, it's said in a provoctive manner
> and I think that's just fine!
>
> mira
And I was just about to defend you against the allegation of behaving
like
a troll ... :-((
IWjmusa
>> So Patrick, what's the 'Troll" crap about. I didn't write the story.
>
>You wrote a generalizing posting that was over the top. Full of stereotypes
>and fingerpointing.
"Over the top"? For who? A German! What else would I expect to hear. It's a
German story period!
>I didn愒 say scg was the wrong place to post something about stolen
>violines. I said your posting was trollish. It愀 not about content but about
>style.
Really? Why? I didn't pass your *style* test? Excuse meeeeeeeeeeeeee!
>You are a troll - not always but in clearly in this thread.
Oh no. I'm a troll all-the-time regardless what you, the troll police have to
say about it. You're a bit in love with yourself...no?
>[snip example of trollishness]
>
>> >Bah, I don愒 believe in national guilt
>>
>> excuses!
>
>For what? Does the American legal system know such a thing like "blood
>guilt"?
Nope but that's not the point. The point is *that* is what I *always* hear
from a German regardless of the subject. 'I don't believe in national quilt'.
You don't even to begin to address the subject at hand but rather thow that
*common* answer out as if it answers anything.
It's very old you know.
>Perhaps you should hear out other sources as well. If I only read news from
>www.americannaziparty.comhttp://www.czechmodels.cz/
>Did you read some of the
>comments posted regarding the article you linked (that愀 where I got the
>address from)
Nope. This was an Associated Press story. That's what I read.
>There was no mentioning of any "receipt" in your
>link.
BTW. I did not bring up the subject of a receipt. It was one of your comrads.
I only commented on it.
>> >BTW, you left out a stereotype: The Nazi pig had a duelling scar on the
>> >cheek and small glasses
>>
>> Wow. A relitive perhaps?
>
>Cheap shot. But I expected something like this - the patterns of trolls are
>predictable.
No. Your sterotype of my sterotype was a cheap shot. You got what you asked
for so you can scream TROLL!
>Try playing the violine while clicking your heels and shouting "Wurstel mit
>Sauerkraut". I guess Anne Sophie-Mutter would barely manage (she lacks the
>duelling scar, too).
No thanks. I already know that I'm not too good at clicking my heels.
>Your problem is: You don愒 know much about the things you愉e writing.
Your problem is that you can't be honest and you lack courage.
> And then you get angry when
>someone points out to you that your intellectual horizon concerning this
>topic is rather narrow.
I'm not angry. I just think you should pay more attention on the violins and
less on me. Perhaps you can get all your comrads together for a groups letter
to the museums....perhaps orginize some protests.
Whatta ya think?
>I also smell insecurity. People who suffer from this trait tend to switch
>into attack mode at the slightest incident.
>
TROLL - INSECURE - STEROTYPE!!!!
Got anything else in that bag of hurts?!
mira
IWjmusa
>And I was just about to defend you against the allegation of behaving
>like
>a troll ... :-((
Thanks but I don't need you defending. What you German's need to understand is
that a troll is not defined as someone who talks about something that is not
too flattering to any one nation.
I agreed that it's provoctive and IMO, just fine. At least I don't lie about
it.
You can call me a troll all you want. It's your problem that you can't see past
your nationalism.
mira
Andreas Thomsen
It is no "nationalism" - If you say something about all of us, it's
you who include me - not I who include myself in the bunch.
I happen to be German, I happen to like classical music - and if I
say I didn't steal any violin, you'd probably say I'm taking on
a defensive attitude. I just do not wish to get into that sort of
name calling and generalization. I just try to explain to you
what happened - and no: you won't get me into the position of
defending something indefendable. Even if you try harder.
IWjmusa
>
>>There was no mentioning of any "receipt" in your
>>link.
iwjmusa
>BTW. I did not bring up the subject of a receipt. It was one of your
>comrads.
> I only commented on it.
That was brought up by some bright soul who thought it cute to ask if the
victims had a receipt! I guess if not, then it never happened or the items in
question were not theirs.
No surprise to hear that frankly!
mira
Andreas Thomsen
>
> >"Patrick Walz-Damidaux"
>
> >> So Patrick, what's the 'Troll" crap about. I didn't write the story.
> >
> >You wrote a generalizing posting that was over the top. Full of stereotypes
> >and fingerpointing.
>
> "Over the top"? For who? A German! What else would I expect to hear. It's a
> German story period!
>
> >violines. I said your posting was trollish. It´s not about content but about
> >style.
>
> Really? Why? I didn't pass your *style* test? Excuse meeeeeeeeeeeeee!
>
> >You are a troll - not always but in clearly in this thread.
>
> Oh no. I'm a troll all-the-time regardless what you, the troll police have to
> say about it. You're a bit in love with yourself...no?
>
> >[snip example of trollishness]
> >
>
> >>
> >> excuses!
> >
> >For what? Does the American legal system know such a thing like "blood
> >guilt"?
>
> Nope but that's not the point. The point is *that* is what I *always* hear
> from a German regardless of the subject. 'I don't believe in national quilt'.
> You don't even to begin to address the subject at hand but rather thow that
> *common* answer out as if it answers anything.
>
> It's very old you know.
>
> >Perhaps you should hear out other sources as well. If I only read news from
> >www.americannaziparty.comhttp://www.czechmodels.cz/
>
> >Did you read some of the
> >address from)
>
> Nope. This was an Associated Press story. That's what I read.
>
> >There was no mentioning of any "receipt" in your
> >link.
>
> BTW. I did not bring up the subject of a receipt. It was one of your comrads.
> I only commented on it.
see below
>
> >> >BTW, you left out a stereotype: The Nazi pig had a duelling scar on the
> >> >cheek and small glasses
> >>
> >> Wow. A relitive perhaps?
> >
> >Cheap shot. But I expected something like this - the patterns of trolls are
> >predictable.
>
> No. Your sterotype of my sterotype was a cheap shot. You got what you asked
> for so you can scream TROLL!
>
> >Try playing the violine while clicking your heels and shouting "Wurstel mit
> >Sauerkraut". I guess Anne Sophie-Mutter would barely manage (she lacks the
> >duelling scar, too).
>
> No thanks. I already know that I'm not too good at clicking my heels.
>
> >Your problem is: You don´t know much about the things you´re writing.
>
> Your problem is that you can't be honest and you lack courage.
>
> > And then you get angry when
> >someone points out to you that your intellectual horizon concerning this
> >topic is rather narrow.
>
> I'm not angry. I just think you should pay more attention on the violins and
> less on me. Perhaps you can get all your comrads together for a groups letter
> to the museums....perhaps orginize some protests.
>
> Whatta ya think?
>
> >I also smell insecurity. People who suffer from this trait tend to switch
> >into attack mode at the slightest incident.
> >
>
> TROLL - INSECURE - STEROTYPE!!!!
>
> Got anything else in that bag of hurts?!
>
> mira
Here we go - people already shouting at each other.
No comment - except: Mira, you _did_ bring up the question of
'receipts' -
in your _first_ post.
<CITATION from Mira's first post>
I'm sure that all the camp prisoners had such documentation available.
Better yet, I'm sure that the German's gave their victims receipts as
they
pulled the violins from their victime arms. Go figure!
mira
</CITATION>
IWjmusa
>The theft of these violins was, of course, a crime, and all those violins
>should be returned to their former owners if possible, but all in all, this
>kind of theft isn't an exceptionally unusual one.
>
No, it's not uncommon. It *is* uncommon however to claim that Germany has the
best vilolin players in the world, and to say it with such superior pride.
Funny....really funny!
mira
IWjmusa
>It's possible - I'd like to think if the government knew about it, they'd
>make some effort at recompense, like they did with the slave laborer
>situation
Maybe. But I'm not sure that the slave labor issue is yet totally a rest. Has
VW paid up...Has Bayer....MB.....BMW, for starters. I'm not sure they
have?????
mira
IWjmusa
>e French also dismantled every factory and took the stuff
>back to France.
>Are we Germans going to be compensated for that?
>No fat chance!!!!!!
>Max
Have you asked?
mira
Sheldon Simms
<iwj...@aol.com>:
>>Andreas Thomsen
>>It is not the message, nor the messager - but the way the message is
>>presented, that is provocative.
>
> It's a provocative subject. More so by seemingly defending it. If I
> were German, I'd say "Shit....Give them back NOW'! I don't think that
> I'd give someone shit because they find the matter discusting.
Why would you say "Give them back NOW!" when no one really knows which
violins were stolen, if they were stolen, or who their rightful
owners might theoretically be?
I think there is every reason to demand some documentation, even if
you think it's silly. Why should museums open themselves up to every
enterprising charlatan out there who can come up with a good story
about how the evil Nazis stole grandpa's prized violin?
--
Sheldon Simms / she...@semanticedge.com
Sheldon Simms
<iwj...@aol.com>:
No specific company is under an obligation to pay anything. The
agreement says only that "German industry" will come up with half
of the money ($5 billion?). It has been pointed out on the news
that some of the companies around at the time that benefitted from
forced labor haven't contributed a penny, while other companies
founded well after the war have contributed a lot.
IWjmusa
>Here we go - people already shouting at each other.
>No comment - except: Mira, you _did_ bring up the question of
>'receipts' -
>in your _first_ post.
>
><CITATION from Mira's first post>
>
>I'm sure that all the camp prisoners had such documentation available.
>Better yet, I'm sure that the German's gave their victims receipts as
>they
>pulled the violins from their victime arms. Go figure!
>
>mira
>
Nope. One of the first responses on this ng was someone asking if the victim's
got documentation prooving that it was theirs. That usually involves a receipt
of some type. In my world anyway.
I would have had NO reason to bring it up. None what-so-ever other then the
comment. "Do the victims have documents".
But thanks for the re-cap. And BTW. I thought the shout was required in that
statement. Sometimes some people need too be hit over the head. Know what I
mean Vern?
So, I've *still* not heard a peep from you on the actual violins and the
article itself. All I hear is about my manners not being *correct*.
mira
IWjmusa
>> I agreed that it's provoctive and IMO, just fine. At least I don't lie
>about
>> it.
>>
>> You can call me a troll all you want. It's your problem that you can't see
>past
>> your nationalism.
>>
>> mira
>
>It is no "nationalism" - If you say something about all of us, it's
>you who include me
Again......For the third time. The story was of Germany. The fact that you
*totally* passed over making *any* comment* on the subject matter and opt'ed to
attack me, and then call me a troll (somewhat), you totally side-stepped the
subject and displayed nothing more then nationalism.
Like I said. Nothing wrong with that under these conditions. It's O.K. to
like your country, I like mine.....So just admit when it's wrong. I do all the
time. No foul!
- not I who include myself in the bunch.
>I happen to be German, I happen to like classical music - and if I
>say I didn't steal any violin, you'd probably say I'm taking on
>a defensive attitude. I just do not wish to get into that sort of
>name calling and generalization. I just try to explain to you
>what happened - and no: you won't get me into the position of
>defending something indefendable. Even if you try harder.
>you won't get me into the position of
>defending something indefendable. Even if you try harder.
I actually like and respect you much too much to think that you can be this
paranoid. I'm not playing chess here nor am I trying to urge you or anyone
else into a corner.
Jeeeeezzzzzes! I just talked of an article and commented because I've heard
sooooooooooooooooo often how cultural Germany is, mostly due to it's history
with classical musik.
I thought it all rather ironic and wanted *your* take on it. All I got was
paranoid nationalism.
mira
IWjmusa
>>>Andreas Thomsen
>>>It is not the message, nor the messager - but the way the message is
>>>presented, that is provocative.
>>
>> It's a provocative subject. More so by seemingly defending it. If I
>> were German, I'd say "Shit....Give them back NOW'! I don't think that
>> I'd give someone shit because they find the matter discusting.
>
>Why would you say "Give them back NOW!" when no one really knows which
>violins were stolen, if they were stolen, or who their rightful
>owners might theoretically be?
I never said to give them back to anyone who made a claim, however as Germany
*itself* prides itself on *exact* recor keeping, surly they can make *some*
effort* to fiqure out who the owners are.
Here is an excerpt from the article which *clearly* points out that Germany is
dragging it's feet.
CHICAGO (AP) - During the Holocaust, the Nazis seized top-quality violins in a
secret operation to collect the world's best musical instruments, according to
declassified U.S. military documents and other records.
Above proves an *orginized* effort.
But attempts to recover the stolen instruments or their value will be
complicated by museums slow to acknowledge works procured under questionable
circumstances, the Tribune reported.
>
>I think there is every reason to demand some documentation, even if
>you think it's silly. Why should museums open themselves up to every
>enterprising charlatan out there who can come up with a good story
>about how the evil Nazis stole grandpa's prized violin?
Again...With a little effort to do *the right thing*, I think Germany can come
up with the goods, don't you?
I'n not a violin expert but I have a cousin who owns a cheap one. Even she has
*her* mark on it.
Are you suggesting that the *best* violins made in history have *no* trail that
can assist in learning where and whom is the owner? Within reason?
mira
IWjmusa
fighting with Saint Petersburg for art that Geramany claims is theirs.
Funny about those two-way streets. They run in two directions.
mira
Sheldon Simms
<iwj...@aol.com>:
I don't know. I can just imagine that, although the process may seem
slow to those people who are demanding violins, the museums are in
fact not "dragging their feet" as much as they are being sure that
the claim is proper, as they should.
As for a trail... Lots of well known and very valuable art has
impeccable documentation that (unfortunately) is forged. Could be
the same with violins.
IWjmusa
><iwj...@aol.com>:
>> Again...With a little effort to do *the right thing*, I think Germany
>> can come up with the goods, don't you?
>>
>> I'n not a violin expert but I have a cousin who owns a cheap one. Even
>> she has *her* mark on it.
>>
>> Are you suggesting that the *best* violins made in history have *no*
>> trail that can assist in learning where and whom is the owner? Within
>> reason?
>
>I don't know. I can just imagine that, although the process may seem
>slow to those people who are demanding violins, the museums are in
>fact not "dragging their feet" as much as they are being sure that
>the claim is proper, as they should.
Well.... I guess we'll have to wait and see.
>As for a trail... Lots of well known and very valuable art has
>impeccable documentation that (unfortunately) is forged. Could be
>the same with violins.
Perhaps. Although the article itself suggested that they are dragging their
feet. Calling on the *standard* excuses. At the same time I can not see how
the museums can even *dream* that they belong to the museums. They know how
they got their goods and they know it's not theirs. For starters.
Aside from that, the reaction on this ng is almost more interesting then any
position the museums take. Talk about stonewalling and denial! Jezzzzzzus!
'Nein, it is our *culture*'! Perhaps they're right. Perhaps it is they're
culture.
mira
>
maxh
I noticed, you conveniently snipped the rest of my statement.
I guess you didn't like reading it.
Violins, give me break.
What's it going to be next? Meissner porcelain, Crystal goblets,
handtailored suits, toilet paper rolls?
I guess, some folks think Germany is the proverbial "cash cow", that can be
milked for ever.
There is no limit to greed, it seems.
Max
IWjmusa wrote in message <20010820234349...@mb-df.aol.com>...
>>rom: "maxh" ma...@thegrid.net
>
>>What about the looting by the allied forces in Germany?
>>My father's house and anybody else's house got blundered and looted by the
>>French forces in the South-western part of Germany.
>
>You're right. Never mind. Keep the violins and play them with *pure*
grace
>and class.
>
>
>mira
maxh
what about Russia compensating my father for having had to work his bud off
in Siberia for no pay, as a prisoner of war.
Is anyone going to compensate German prisoners of war, wherever they might
have been interned, for having had to work for nothing for years?
No fat chance!!!!!!
Max
IWjmusa wrote in message <20010821181054...@mb-mp.aol.com>...
IWjmusa
>Mira,
>what about Russia compensating my father for having had to work his bud off
>in Siberia for no pay, as a prisoner of war.
>Is anyone going to compensate German prisoners of war, wherever they might
>have been interned, for having had to work for nothing for years?
>No fat chance!!!!!!
>Max
20 wrongs don't make a right. I can't answer your question. From where I sit,
if he worked he should have been paid through a lawsuit if required. Only
problem is, good luck getting any real amount of money out of Russia. They may
just pay you in vodka like they did their teachers.
On the other hand. Was your father plowing fields or building cars? The
German's, I think, just got too used to free labor.
mira
IWjmusa
>I noticed, you conveniently snipped the rest of my statement.
>I guess you didn't like reading it.
what? post it again. I usually don't paste a full post. Nothing personal.
>Violins, give me break.
>What's it going to be next? Meissner porcelain, Crystal goblets,
>handtailored suits, toilet paper rolls?
Do you really think that any of those items can compare to some of the best
violins made in history?
>I guess, some folks think Germany is the proverbial "cash cow", that can be
>milked for ever.
>There is no limit to greed, it seems.
Now that's a twist! Not a surprise but a twist regardless. Frankly I expected
to have heard that a bit sooner.
No limit of greed from those wanting their goods back......Ha! That's rich.
Ya got balls kid.
mira
Juergen Hubert
"IWjmusa" <iwj...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010821134113...@mb-cj.aol.com...
> >"Juergen Hubert
>
> >> You're right. Never mind. Keep the violins and play them with *pure*
> >grace
> >> and class.
> >
>
> Right! Although I ment that as the collective Germany. IMO, keep them
and
> impress the world for years to come with the *qualities* that come out of
> Germany.
Now you are just trolling.
- Juergen Hubert
Juergen Hubert
I have never heard of the claim that Germany has allegedly the best violin
players in the world before.
Are you quite sure you didn't just make up the punchline to suit your
purposes?
- Juergen Hubert
Andreas Thomsen
>
> >Andreas Thomsen
>
> >Here we go - people already shouting at each other.
> >No comment - except: Mira, you _did_ bring up the question of
> >'receipts' -
> >in your _first_ post.
> >
> ><CITATION from Mira's first post>
> >
> >I'm sure that all the camp prisoners had such documentation available.
> >Better yet, I'm sure that the German's gave their victims receipts as
> >they
> >pulled the violins from their victime arms. Go figure!
> >
> >mira
> >
> Nope. One of the first responses on this ng was someone asking if the victim's
> got documentation prooving that it was theirs. That usually involves a receipt
> of some type. In my world anyway.
>
Facts do not matter once the campaign has started - :-))
Go and re-read your first posting.
> I would have had NO reason to bring it up. None what-so-ever other then the
> comment. "Do the victims have documents".
>
> But thanks for the re-cap. And BTW. I thought the shout was required in that
> statement. Sometimes some people need too be hit over the head. Know what I
> mean Vern?
>
> So, I've *still* not heard a peep from you on the actual violins and the
> article itself. All I hear is about my manners not being *correct*.
>
> mira
I am not obliged to tell my opinion to people who don't
care about manners.
A.
Andreas Thomsen
Mira, you were out for a harsh reaction - and you got it.
"Stonewalling and denial" - that's what you wanted to get...
Look at the title you chose for a start.
_No_ relation whatsoever with the matter of who has to get
which violins.
regards,
Andreas Thomsen
>
> On Wed, 22 Aug 2001 11:11:27 +0200, Andreas Thomsen
> <tho...@uni-bonn.de> wrote:
>
> >I am not obliged to tell my opinion to people who don't
> >care about manners.
> >
>
> Esp." 2.1 Wieviel soll ich zitieren?"
>
> HTH
>
> Michael
thanks
IWjmusa
>I have never heard of the claim that Germany has allegedly the best violin
>players in the world before.
>
>Are you quite sure you didn't just make up the punchline to suit your
>purposes?
Oh please Jeurgen, grow up. It's been said several time on this ng. And no,
I'm not going to go dig them up from months back.......You want a receipt too?
denial...denial....denial....
mira
IWjmusa
>IWjmusa wrote:
>> position the museums take. Talk about stonewalling and denial!
>Jezzzzzzus!
>>
>> 'Nein, it is our *culture*'! Perhaps they're right. Perhaps it is they're
>> culture.
>>
>Mira, you were out for a harsh reaction - and you got it.
>"Stonewalling and denial" - that's what you wanted to get...
>Look at the title you chose for a start.
>_No_ relation whatsoever with the matter of who has to get
>which violins.
>
Andreas....you've convinced me. It is Germany's culture.
The title? What's wrong with the title? Germany had a collective effort to go
out and STEAL the best violin in Europe.....
Now, does THAT suggest that Germany *does not* have a love affair with
classical music?
As far as the *harsh* reaction you say I sought....I have found *no* harsh
reaction what-so-ever. I have however found a *strong* cowards reaction.
No surprise there!
mira
IWjmusa
>I am not obliged to tell my opinion to people who don't
>care about manners.
So don't answer any of my posts if you're only going to cop-out.
Seems to you that good *manners* is something said that's only *nice* and
*untruthfull* about German.
Therefor I don't need your opinion as you choose to give it no value.
mira
Tobias Erichsen
news:20010822101026...@mb-mp.aol.com...
I´d also like a reference to places where this statement was made.
On the other hand - I really don´t care as I gonna put you in my
kill-file as soon as I am done with this post - one troll less which
I have to bother reading messages of...
Tobias
--
Gott hat gemeiert und sagte: 42!
IWjmusa
>I悲 also like a reference to places where this statement was made.
>On the other hand - I really don愒 care as I gonna put you in my
>kill-file as soon as I am done with this post - one troll less which
>I have to bother reading messages of...
Is that supposed to upset me?
denial...denial...denial...receipt!
mira
Juergen Hubert
> >"Juergen Hubert"
>
> >I have never heard of the claim that Germany has allegedly the best
violin
> >players in the world before.
> >
> >Are you quite sure you didn't just make up the punchline to suit your
> >purposes?
>
> Oh please Jeurgen, grow up.
Are you quite certain that it is me who has to do the growing up?
> It's been said several time on this ng. And no,
> I'm not going to go dig them up from months back.......You want a receipt
too?
>
> denial...denial....denial....
>
> mira
Well since you weren't going to do the research, I did it. I did a Google
search (http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search) on mentions of the
word "violin" on soc.culture.german. It returned 248 messages, but none of
them read anything like you claim.
Now who is living in denial?
Look, you are clearly obsessed over something. That's not a problem, lots of
people are. But unless you can clearly figure out what it is, and what to do
about it, could you at least promise to _think_ about what you are going to
post?
- Juergen Hubert
IWjmusa
insulted some with the original title which read
"Germany's Love Affair With Classical Musik"
>"Juergen Hubert"
>"IWjmusa" <iwj...@aol.com>
>> >I have never heard of the claim that Germany has allegedly the best
>violin
>> >players in the world before.
>> >
>> >Are you quite sure you didn't just make up the punchline to suit your
>> >purposes?
>>
>> Oh please Jeurgen, grow up.
>
>Are you quite certain that it is me who has to do the growing up?
Among others...yes!
Listen, I'm not insensitive to the fact that this is not the best news for
Germany. After all, for such an article to come out after years of promoting
Germany as a mecca of classical music (and looking down it's nose) at all other
European cultures (in terms of music), except Austria (thank goodness).
Anyway....I understand and frankly I'm glad in some ways to see such denial as
it suggests that there is some embarrasment here. That's good and healthy.
>
>> It's been said several time on this ng. And no,
>> I'm not going to go dig them up from months back.......You want a receipt
>too?
>>
>> denial...denial....denial....
>>
>> mira
>
>Well since you weren't going to do the research, I did it. I did a Google
>search (http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search) on mentions of the
>word "violin" on soc.culture.german.
I went to your link. All I got was ERROR 404
It returned 248 messages, but none of
>them read anything like you claim.
>
>Now who is living in denial?
>
>Look, you are clearly obsessed over something. That's not a problem, lots of
>people are.
Actually obsession is a problem however it does not exist here. Not on my part
at least. I think what you and other German's are somewhat *obsessed* with
here is to fail (collectively) to even address the article itself.
Instead you want to point *at me*???? Ha!
I don't think so cowboy!
But unless you can clearly figure out what it is, and what to do
>about it, could you at least promise to _think_ about what you are going to
>post?
Jezzzzzzzzzzus. It must be a tough job being German. Seems ya have to stare
at truth all the time and not look at it.
That's sad.
mira
IWjmusa
>Well since you weren't going to do the research, I did it. I did a Google
>search (http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search) on mentions of the
Great. Now go back and do a search of your anti-French statements.
mira
Eowine Eomundsdottir
> Germany.
You are insensitive that at this point in time it is _not_ news, just an
unqualified opinion by some journalist.
> After all, for such an article to come out after years of promoting
> Germany as a mecca of classical music (and looking down it's nose) at all
other
> European cultures (in terms of music), except Austria (thank goodness).
Hmmm... I've been living 5 km from the german border and come from one of
those pesky "Other European cultures". I have not yet noticed The Germans
looking down on _anyone_.
> Anyway....I understand and frankly I'm glad in some ways to see such
denial as
> it suggests that there is some embarrasment here. That's good and
healthy.
The only embarrasment neccesary should be on your side for making
accusations like that without anything but an newspaper-article about a
newspaper-article to base your accusations on. Rather a thin base (actually,
none at all).
> Actually obsession is a problem
It is. But the obsession is yours.
Eowine.
IWjmusa
>iwjmusa
>> Anyway....I understand and frankly I'm glad in some ways to see such
>denial as
>> it suggests that there is some embarrasment here. That's good and
>healthy.
>The only embarrasment neccesary should be on your side for making
>accusations like that
"I" made accusations? Ever hear of a newspaper?
without anything but an newspaper-article about a
>newspaper-article to base your accusations on.
Ah huh. And it's exactly people like you who would be the frirst to call for
the newspaper article if I had only posted the facts without saying it was from
a paper.
You'd be asking for the *proof* from the article.
Rather a thin base (actually,
>none at all).
Right. You know better then Germany's *own* files. How bright you are!
mira
E.F.Schelby
Doing his job after war's end at the Property Control Warehouse, one
of the large art collection centers set up by the American
occupation forces, US Captain Howard A. Mackenzie was in a position
to marvel about the universal vice of greed. He said:
I wondered back then if there was one honest person
left in the whole world.
(Kenneth D. Alford, _Spoils of War: the American Military's
Role in Stealing Europe's Treasures, 1994. The book is
mentioned in the Washington Post article).
To add to this thread's merriment, I will fulfill my democratic duty
and add some factual evidence to a well-rounded debate. Here is an
excerpt from a newspaper article on a confiscated/stolen/traded
master painting belatedly returned to the owners by the holiest of
holies, the National Gallery in D.C. The story appeared in most
major US papers.
Incidentally, the AP developed a particular style it tends to use
when reporting on stolen art. I didn't keep the articles but have
seen the practice several times: the piece is headlined "art looted
by the n*zis", but does not explain how a particular illegal item
happens to end up in a museum or auction in the US or elsewhere. If
the reporting aims to be professional, why does it run circles
around the question: who looted the looters?
Quote:
Published Tuesday, November 21, 2000, in the
Herald-Leader
National Gallery to return a painting
believed stolen from family by Nazis
By Leigh Strope
ASSOCIATED PRESS
WASHINGTON The National Gallery of Art is returning
a painting thought to have been stolen by German
Nazis sometime before 1941 from a Paris
family's collection.
The painting, Still Life with Fruit and Game by
Flemish artist Frans Snyders, depicts a large basket
of colorful fruit on a red tablecloth,
surrounded by dead game, including birds and a small
deer.
The museum is arranging to return the painting to
the Stern family, who discovered the piece and the
history of its ownership on the gallery's Web
site.
The gallery has been doing extensive World War
II-era ownership research on the European art in its
collection for three years, said Director Earl A.
Powell III.
``We believe that full disclosure of all available
information about works in the gallery's collection
is of vital importance,'' Powell said.
Gallery spokeswoman Deborah Ziska said the Stern
family did not want to be interviewed about the
discovery.
The painting was confiscated from the Stern
collection in Paris and traded to one of the Nazis'
principal art dealers, Karl Haberstock, by Hermann
Goering in 1941, according to the gallery's
research. Haberstock gave the painting to his friend
Baron von Poellnitz, a Luftwaffe officer, by 1945.
The painting was purchased from von Poellnitz around
1968 by Herman Shickman. The National Gallery of Art
received the painting in 1990 as a gift from Herman
and Lila Shickman in honor of its 50th anniversary
in 1991.
There are several strange details in the article, but never mind.
Other interesting material, this one about the looted Hungarian Gold
Train, can be found in the Washington Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/daily/oct99/train15.htm
(Incidentally, the train also transported the valuables of Hungarian
nobles and wealthy families, and of small banks. Not all of the
property and art in the western world was Jewish).
The Washington Post piece is officially backed up by this US
government briefing:
http://www.pcha.gov/991014gtbriefing.html
More than 40 countries are on the trail of art which was stolen,
looted, or otherwise vanished in and after WW II. Even the venerable
Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York has quietly returned stolen
antiqities/gems to the Bavarian State Museum.
Should we return to the violins?
Regards,
ES
IWjmusa
>Should we return to the violins?
>
Yep!
>More than 40 countries are on the trail of art which was stolen,
>looted, or otherwise vanished in and after WW II. Even the venerable
>Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York has quietly returned stolen
>antiqities/gems to the Bavarian State Museum.
No doubt. I'm all in favor of *everyone* giving back art and other items to
the country it was looted from. Including the USA, whose hands I'm *sure* are
not clean on this subject.
If it was sold legally, fine, if not, it should go back. Including all the
German are in Russia.
mira
IWjmusa
Juergen Hubert
> Hope you don't mind but I changed the title of the thread. It seems that
I
> insulted some with the original title which read
> "Germany's Love Affair With Classical Musik"
>
> >"Juergen Hubert"
>
> >"IWjmusa" <iwj...@aol.com>
>
> >> >I have never heard of the claim that Germany has allegedly the best
> >violin
> >> >players in the world before.
> >> >
> >> >Are you quite sure you didn't just make up the punchline to suit your
> >> >purposes?
> >>
> >> Oh please Jeurgen, grow up.
> >
> >Are you quite certain that it is me who has to do the growing up?
>
>
> Among others...yes!
>
> Listen, I'm not insensitive to the fact that this is not the best news for
> Germany. After all, for such an article to come out after years of
promoting
> Germany as a mecca of classical music (and looking down it's nose) at all
other
> European cultures (in terms of music), except Austria (thank goodness).
>
> Anyway....I understand and frankly I'm glad in some ways to see such
denial as
> it suggests that there is some embarrasment here. That's good and
healthy.
I am not in denial.
> >> It's been said several time on this ng. And no,
> >> I'm not going to go dig them up from months back.......You want a
receipt
> >too?
> >>
> >> denial...denial....denial....
> >>
> >> mira
> >
> >Well since you weren't going to do the research, I did it. I did a Google
> >search (http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search) on mentions of
the
> >word "violin" on soc.culture.german.
>
>
> I went to your link. All I got was ERROR 404
It seems to work just fine for me.
> It returned 248 messages, but none of
> >them read anything like you claim.
> >
> >Now who is living in denial?
> >
> >Look, you are clearly obsessed over something. That's not a problem, lots
of
> >people are.
>
> Actually obsession is a problem however it does not exist here. Not on my
part
> at least. I think what you and other German's are somewhat *obsessed*
with
> here is to fail (collectively) to even address the article itself.
But I did adress the article.
> Instead you want to point *at me*???? Ha!
> I don't think so cowboy!
I am pointing at you because you are making things up, consciously or not.
> But unless you can clearly figure out what it is, and what to do
> >about it, could you at least promise to _think_ about what you are going
to
> >post?
>
> Jezzzzzzzzzzus. It must be a tough job being German. Seems ya have to
stare
> at truth all the time and not look at it.
>
> That's sad.
>
> mira
Actually, that sounds pretty much like what you are doing - and yes, that's
sad.
- Juergen Hubert
Juergen Hubert
I didn't find any.
- Juergen Hubert
Eowine Eomundsdottir
> Ah huh. And it's exactly people like you who would be the frirst to call
for
> the newspaper article if I had only posted the facts without saying it was
from
> a paper.
I would have asked you to substantiate those claims and would have found an
article about an article (whatever the sources) insufficient grounds for
such an accusation.
> You'd be asking for the *proof* from the article.
The article does not supply any *proof*.
> Right. You know better then Germany's *own* files. How bright you are!
Ok. So point me to those files. You presented an article and aske me to
judge. Based on the evidence presented I could not reach another verdict
than that of "insufficient evidence".
Eowine.
IWjmusa
>> Great. Now go back and do a search of your anti-French statements.
>
>I didn't find any.
>
O.K. Let's do it in baby steps then. The semantics game again.
Try again. This time enter the following words. dislike - don't like -
annoying - the french, etc. Now being German , make sure you cross every "t"
and cross every "i".
Are you telling me that over the last several months, you have made no
comments, posts, expressions, suggestions, stating that you generally don't
like the French?
mira
the troll
IWjmusa
>> You'd be asking for the *proof* from the article.
>The article does not supply any *proof*.
Well Professor Wayne seems to think that the story itself has been common
knoweldge in Germany for some time now. Read his post.
So where the hell have you been?
mira
the troll
Juergen Hubert
> >"Juergen Hubert"
>
> >> Great. Now go back and do a search of your anti-French statements.
> >
> >I didn't find any.
> >
>
> O.K. Let's do it in baby steps then. The semantics game again.
>
> Try again. This time enter the following words. dislike - don't like -
> annoying - the french, etc. Now being German , make sure you cross every
"t"
> and cross every "i".
I did all that and still found nothing.
> Are you telling me that over the last several months, you have made no
> comments, posts, expressions, suggestions, stating that you generally
don't
> like the French?
That's exactly what I am saying.
- Juergen Hubert
Michael Khan
IWjmusa wrote:
> Are you telling me that over the last several months, you have made no
> comments, posts, expressions, suggestions, stating that you generally don't
> like the French?
Did he?
Anything along the line of this choice remark of yours?