Why the French Bashing? Comments on Iraq [LONG]
Joe White
traveling to Mexico, Portugal, China, UK and France.
In all the places I've traveled to, I've found warm, friendly, intelligent
people. I've also found people that I hope never to meet again. How anybody
can criticize French food and wine, I'm not sure. I love California wine,
but great French wine is truly amazing. What the French can do with food is
truly an art. I invite my French friends to take a trip to California,
especially the wine country (Napa and Sonoma Valley). I think you might find
some of our wine to be extremely palatable and the price very competitive.
And, although we do have our share of fast food, we also have some excellent
restaurants. You might even find some of your compatriots running the
restaurants here.
Although I have only been in France four times, the trips have always been
memorable. I think the American's who are bashing France for cultural
reasons, probably have not spent much, if any, time there. There are many
great cultural places to visit in the United States, but nothing I've seen
compares to the Louvre. Interestingly enough, the Louvre does not limit
itself to French art. It must be because the French recognize cultural
contributions from around the world.
On the issue of gratitude, I have at least one story that points to France's
undying gratitude to the United States:
A good friend of mine took his family to France. They went to Normandy,
because my friend's father fought there in WWII. When he was there, he
struck up a conversation with one of the local merchants. When he asked my
friend why he was there, he told him about his father's military past. The
man immediately invited my friend and his family over for dinner. A complete
stranger. Furthermore, that same man invited his neighbors over to meet the
family. They spent the evening talking about the war and how so many
American's came across the Atlantic, to fight and die for France. So people
who say that France has forgotten America's contribution to WWII are sadly
mistaken.
On my trips to France, only on a few occasions did I run into
anti-Americanism. I have heard all these horror stories about American's
being treated poorly. Given my rudimentary knowledge of their language, I
braced myself for some unpleasant encounters. Much to my surprise, I found
that most of the French I ran into were pleasant and helpful. Certainly I've
been treated worse in New York city. (Love NY anyway).
To my fellow Americans, I think that we should keep the debate over the war
in Iraq on point, instead of going for the cheap insults. It is unnecessary
to question French valor, gratitude, intelligence, culture, etc. Likewise, I
think that some of our French (and Canadian) friends are also lowering
themselves by attacking American values and culture. The debate should be
about making the world a safer, better place. Based on what I've seen on
this bulletin board, you would think that France and the US were going to
war instead of the US and allies vs. Iraq.
1. I probably don't care for President Bush anymore than some of the French,
but he is absolutely correct in wanting to get rid of Saddam. President
Bush's diplomatic skills leave a lot to be desired. It doesn't mean that he
is incorrect about Iraq. I think a lot of the opposition to the war comes
from personal dislike of Bush. I understand this position but people need to
put aside their dislike and focus on the big picture.
2. Sanctions have not worked in the last twelve years and they are not going
to work in the next twelve years. Sanctions only hurt the person in power if
there is some kind of democratic mechanism for removing the ruling party.
None exists in the Iraq. It does however harm the people of Iraq who are not
responsible for SH. Their economy is in shambles. The children do not get
the medical supplies they need. Do you really think the this motivates SH to
change?
3. Inspections will not work. It is far too easy to hide WMD. SH is simply
using a delaying tactic. It will be a lot harder for our soldiers to fight a
war in the heat, especially if SH plans on using chemical/biological weapons
as he will surely do in the final battles.
4. The United States WILL go this alone even without full UN support. I
think that this is a bad for France if this happens. France should figure
out some way to support this position or back down. It does France no good
to simply say "no to war". France's position seems to be, there is no way to
justify an attack without Saddam attacking first. But there are things worse
than doing nothing. Both America and France fought revolutions to throw off
the shackles of oppression. Surely our forefathers believed in sacrificing
their life for a higher good. American's have fought wars on foreign lands
to help out those who were oppressed. Unfortunately our past is not pure. We
have propped up petty dictators. We even supported SH in their war against
Iran. Iran was/is being run by a pretty despicable government, but we made a
deal with the devil to do our dirty work. This doesn't mean we shouldn't
correct that mistake today.
6. Finally, we made a promise to the Kurds which we didn't keep. It is truly
dishonorable that we told them we would support them and then left them to
Saddam to butcher. It is late, but not too late, to rectify this mistake.
- Joe
Guillaume Leclanche
> To my fellow Americans, I think that we should keep the debate over
> the war
> in Iraq on point, instead of going for the cheap insults. It is
> unnecessary
> to question French valor, gratitude, intelligence, culture, etc.
> Likewise, I
> think that some of our French (and Canadian) friends are also lowering
> themselves by attacking American values and culture. The debate should be
> about making the world a safer, better place. Based on what I've seen on
> this bulletin board, you would think that France and the US were going to
> war instead of the US and allies vs. Iraq.
I agree :)
> 1. I probably don't care for President Bush anymore than some of the
> French,
You can call him Imperator Bush, that won't surprise anybody.
>
> but he is absolutely correct in wanting to get rid of Saddam. President
> Bush's diplomatic skills leave a lot to be desired. It doesn't mean
> that he
> is incorrect about Iraq. I think a lot of the opposition to the war comes
> from personal dislike of Bush. I understand this position but people
> need to
> put aside their dislike and focus on the big picture.
Well, i don't think we can sweep as easily the enslaving behavior that
the Bush II administration has towards the allies of the USA. That's the
heart of diplomacy.
> 2. Sanctions have not worked in the last twelve years and they are not
> going
> to work in the next twelve years. Sanctions only hurt the person in
Let's lift them.
> power if
> there is some kind of democratic mechanism for removing the ruling party.
> None exists in the Iraq. It does however harm the people of Iraq who
> are not
> responsible for SH. Their economy is in shambles. The children do not get
> the medical supplies they need. Do you really think the this motivates
> SH to
> change?
> 3. Inspections will not work. It is far too easy to hide WMD. SH is
Speculations! imho, hiding a nuclear weapon when 10cm-precision
satellites are watching everything that happens in the country is not so
easy.
> simply
> using a delaying tactic. It will be a lot harder for our soldiers to
> fight a
> war in the heat, especially if SH plans on using chemical/biological
> weapons
> as he will surely do in the final battles.
Why don't the US leave inspections go on until next winter then? Iraq
will surely have fewer weapons left if inspectors stay longer ! Oh of
course, if he has no weapon remaining, the utimate little justification
remaining will fall.
> 4. The United States WILL go this alone even without full UN support. I
> think that this is a bad for France if this happens. France should figure
> out some way to support this position or back down. It does France no good
> to simply say "no to war". France's position seems to be, there is no
> way to
> justify an attack without Saddam attacking first. But there are things
> worse
> than doing nothing. Both America and France fought revolutions to
The UN do NOT do nothing !
> throw off
> the shackles of oppression. Surely our forefathers believed in sacrificing
> their life for a higher good. American's have fought wars on foreign lands
> to help out those who were oppressed. Unfortunately our past is not
> pure. We
> have propped up petty dictators. We even supported SH in their war against
> Iran. Iran was/is being run by a pretty despicable government, but we
> made a
> deal with the devil to do our dirty work. This doesn't mean we shouldn't
> correct that mistake today.
You're right, France (and 80% of the world population also) is against
the war. The French position is that Iraqis must not suffer from a war
oriented against one man. Why can't the CIA throw out Saddam as they did
in Chili with Allende (who was democratically elected) ?
I can't know what our dimplomats have in mind, anyway, I have read
recently that inspections cost 80 million $ / year (shared by many
countries). A war would cost 8 billion $ / month (shared by the USA and
UK). Given the cost of a war, there's obviously something the US
administration hides (who said "oil" ;-)).
Oh sure, inspections would last longer, but obviously Iraq complies more
and more. Inspectors could be left in Iraq during 100 years for the cost
of one war, in order to prevent Iraq from re-arming. And inspections
kill nobody ! That's marvelous. War is not a game, you don't respawn.
> 6. Finally, we made a promise to the Kurds which we didn't keep. It is
> truly
> dishonorable that we told them we would support them and then left them to
> Saddam to butcher. It is late, but not too late, to rectify this mistake.
The Kurds had been given a independant state at the treaty of Sèvres at
the end of WW1. The Turkish revolution in the early 20s made it
impossible. However, I don't think we should attack Turkey to free the
Kurds they annexed in the 20s.
Tibet has been invaded and annexed by China (1950), after the creation
of the UN, whereas it was a free independant country.
Mo.
Jack
"Joe White" <joeXnosp...@san.rr.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
dJv8a.19474$zb.71...@twister.socal.rr.com...
>
> 1. I think a lot of the opposition to the war comes
> from personal dislike of Bush.
if it was true how would you explain that we were with Bush's father during
the gulf war, and with Bush jr in Afghanistan?
.
>
> 2. Sanctions have not worked in the last twelve years and they are not
going
> to work in the next twelve years.
it's USA that didn't want to reduce them in the past.
>
> 3. Inspections will not work. It is far too easy to hide WMD. SH is simply
> using a delaying tactic. It will be a lot harder for our soldiers to fight
a
> war in the heat, especially if SH plans on using chemical/biological
weapons
> as he will surely do in the final battles.
90 or 95 % of the WMD have been eliminated by UNSCOM
it's the CIA in the past that make the job 's inspector uneasy by sending
spy agent among them to kill SH, which was illegal within the resolutions.
that makes irakis even more unwilling to cooperate
>
> 4. The United States WILL go this alone even without full UN support. I
> think that this is a bad for France if this happens. France should figure
> out some way to support this position or back down. It does France no good
> to simply say "no to war". France's position seems to be, there is no way
to
> justify an attack without Saddam attacking first.
France has never rejected the idea of military action against Iraq but says
it can only be decided after all options to disarm have been exhausted.
Joe White
----- Original Message -----
From: "Guillaume Leclanche" <mo-...@nul-en.info>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.french
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: Why the French Bashing? Comments on Iraq [LONG]
> Joe White wrote:
>
> > To my fellow Americans, I think that we should keep the debate over
> > the war
> > in Iraq on point, instead of going for the cheap insults. It is
> > unnecessary
> > to question French valor, gratitude, intelligence, culture, etc.
> > Likewise, I
> > think that some of our French (and Canadian) friends are also lowering
> > themselves by attacking American values and culture. The debate should
be
> > about making the world a safer, better place. Based on what I've seen on
> > this bulletin board, you would think that France and the US were going
to
> > war instead of the US and allies vs. Iraq.
>
> I agree :)
>
> > 1. I probably don't care for President Bush anymore than some of the
> > French,
>
> You can call him Imperator Bush, that won't surprise anybody.
Hard to believe I'm defending President Bush but here goes...
Bush is simply an elected official. He can be replaced in 2004. He is not an
emperor or a dictator. If the people of the US want to throw him out, they
only need cast a few more votes for the Democratic candidate next time. If
he truly isn't following the will of the people, he won't survive the next
election.
>
> >
> > but he is absolutely correct in wanting to get rid of Saddam. President
> > Bush's diplomatic skills leave a lot to be desired. It doesn't mean
> > that he
> > is incorrect about Iraq. I think a lot of the opposition to the war
comes
> > from personal dislike of Bush. I understand this position but people
> > need to
> > put aside their dislike and focus on the big picture.
>
> Well, i don't think we can sweep as easily the enslaving behavior that
> the Bush II administration has towards the allies of the USA. That's the
> heart of diplomacy.
I agree that the Bush team made should have met with their European
counterparts ahead of time. It costs nothing to treat others with respect
and it is certainly costly to be disrespectful. Unfortunately, that time has
past and the Bush team is having to figure out how to mend fences. From what
I've seen, they are not very good at it, but I give them points for at least
trying.
Of course, President Chirac telling Eastern European countries to "keep
silent" wasn't exactly an exercise in diplomacy either. Warning them that if
they didn't "go along" with France and Germany might harm there chances of
entering the EU was certainly a thinly veiled threat. So much for European
unity.
Bush and the US is not trying to enslave any of its allies. Yes, they expect
them to go along with their administration, but that is not the same as
enslavement. The US is the sole superpower, but it cannot force France or
Germany to go along but it can, and will, take action alone and with the
help of as many allies as it can.
>
> > 2. Sanctions have not worked in the last twelve years and they are not
> > going
> > to work in the next twelve years. Sanctions only hurt the person in
>
> Let's lift them.
Cannot do that either. Saddam has proved to be a very dangerous ruler. He
should have been removed after the Gulf war. We use sanctions as a means of
limiting his power. At first blush, this appears humane, but only if
sanctions are for a short time.
>
> > power if
> > there is some kind of democratic mechanism for removing the ruling
party.
> > None exists in the Iraq. It does however harm the people of Iraq who
> > are not
> > responsible for SH. Their economy is in shambles. The children do not
get
> > the medical supplies they need. Do you really think the this motivates
> > SH to
> > change?
>
>
>
> > 3. Inspections will not work. It is far too easy to hide WMD. SH is
>
> Speculations! imho, hiding a nuclear weapon when 10cm-precision
> satellites are watching everything that happens in the country is not so
> easy.
WMD are not limited to nuclear devices. SH seems to have a penchant for
biological and chemical weapons. The chances of finding the weapons is
further hindered by SH willingness to kill his own people to protect
himself.
http://www.dailytelegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/03/02/wirq102
.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/03/02/ixnewstop.html
>
> > simply
> > using a delaying tactic. It will be a lot harder for our soldiers to
> > fight a
> > war in the heat, especially if SH plans on using chemical/biological
> > weapons
> > as he will surely do in the final battles.
>
> Why don't the US leave inspections go on until next winter then? Iraq
> will surely have fewer weapons left if inspectors stay longer ! Oh of
> course, if he has no weapon remaining, the utimate little justification
> remaining will fall.
Because we are there today, because SH will not change, because the Kurds
are in danger of being exterminated, because al-Qaeda is already deployed in
N. Iraq and because this will give SH more time to prepare and more time for
destruction.
>
>
> > 4. The United States WILL go this alone even without full UN support. I
> > think that this is a bad for France if this happens. France should
figure
> > out some way to support this position or back down. It does France no
good
> > to simply say "no to war". France's position seems to be, there is no
> > way to
> > justify an attack without Saddam attacking first. But there are things
> > worse
> > than doing nothing. Both America and France fought revolutions to
>
> The UN do NOT do nothing !
The UN has been unsuccessful in removing Saddam from power. OK, they have
been unsuccessful using their current methods and they have not come up with
anything to prove that they will be successful.
>
> > throw off
> > the shackles of oppression. Surely our forefathers believed in
sacrificing
> > their life for a higher good. American's have fought wars on foreign
lands
> > to help out those who were oppressed. Unfortunately our past is not
> > pure. We
> > have propped up petty dictators. We even supported SH in their war
against
> > Iran. Iran was/is being run by a pretty despicable government, but we
> > made a
> > deal with the devil to do our dirty work. This doesn't mean we shouldn't
> > correct that mistake today.
>
>
> You're right, France (and 80% of the world population also) is against
> the war. The French position is that Iraqis must not suffer from a war
> oriented against one man. Why can't the CIA throw out Saddam as they did
> in Chili with Allende (who was democratically elected) ?
Yes and most people in the US opposed going into WWII, but luckily our
leadership prevailed. Most Americans didn't want us involved in Bosnia,
luckily we eventually decided to get involved. By the way, anybody who
thinks that Americans hate Muslims should ask themselves who we were exactly
saving there.
>
> I can't know what our diplomats have in mind, anyway, I have read
> recently that inspections cost 80 million $ / year (shared by many
> countries). A war would cost 8 billion $ / month (shared by the USA and
> UK). Given the cost of a war, there's obviously something the US
> administration hides (who said "oil" ;-)).
Yeah, this is going to be very, very expensive. Can't say I'm going to be
too disappointed if oil prices fall in the long term. Unfortunately it is
going to cost the US billions of dollars, as it again, takes it upon itself
to be the world's policeman. In the end, Iraq will probably benefit the most
from this war. They will be out from under an oppressive leader. The oil
money actually might go to the benefit of the Iraqi people instead of lining
his pocket. If the US (and the rest of the world) benefits by cheaper oil
prices, all the better.
> Oh sure, inspections would last longer, but obviously Iraq complies more
> and more. Inspectors could be left in Iraq during 100 years for the cost
> of one war, in order to prevent Iraq from re-arming. And inspections
> kill nobody ! That's marvelous. War is not a game, you don't respond.
Iraq complies very slowly. They can play this cat and mouse game forever.
Iraq looked to thwart the UN inspectors at every move. Its simply too easy
to hide these devices.
I never said war was a game. War is awful. War kills innocent people. War
destroys lives. But you need not have war to have all those things. SH has
been butchering his own people without the benefit of war. Iraqis who have
fled Iraq ask us to please take care of Saddam. Perhaps we should listen to
them since they know better than anyone what it is like to live under SH
rule.
>
> > 6. Finally, we made a promise to the Kurds which we didn't keep. It is
> > truly
> > dishonorable that we told them we would support them and then left them
to
> > Saddam to butcher. It is late, but not too late, to rectify this
mistake.
>
> The Kurds had been given a independent state at the treaty of Sèvres at
> the end of WW1. The Turkish revolution in the early 20s made it
> impossible. However, I don't think we should attack Turkey to free the
> Kurds they annexed in the 20s.
Apples and oranges. We are not talking about something that happened ten
years ago not eighty. We didn't promise the Kurds independence from Turkey
or Iraq, only freedom from Saddam. We failed them and let them be
butchered.
> Tibet has been invaded and annexed by China (1950), after the creation
> of the UN, whereas it was a free independent country.
Certainly there are other regimes that endanger the people of the world.
N. Korea comes immediately to mind. Some of these situations we can solve by
diplomacy, some we cannot. Some that we can solve by force and some that we
cannot. Let's focus on a regime that has proven itself to be both dangerous
and belligerent. We have tried diplomacy. It has failed. If murderous
demagogues know that the world will not stand for their continued existence
perhaps all people will benefit.
- Joe
>
> Mo.
>
>
Guillaume Leclanche
> Ahh, you cut the part about my liking the French...
I can't reply on it, since i'm French, it wouldn't be fair and impartial
answer :-)
John of Aix
> I've lived in California most of my life, but I've had the pleasure
of
> traveling to Mexico, Portugal, China, UK and France.
>
> In all the places I've traveled to, I've found warm, friendly,
> intelligent people. I've also found people that I hope never to meet
> again. How anybody can criticize French food and wine, I'm not sure.
> I love California wine, but great French wine is truly amazing.
What
> the French can do with food is truly an art. I invite my French
> friends to take a trip to California, especially the wine country
> (Napa and Sonoma Valley). I think you might find some of our wine to
> be extremely palatable and the price very competitive. And, although
> we do have our share of fast food, we also have some excellent
> restaurants. You might even find some of your compatriots running
the
> restaurants here.
In France the wine sold is almost exclusively French, in England,
where I was born, the wines come from all over the world and
Californian, some, has a high reputation. France isn't the only wine
country now, it knows that, but it still makes excellent wines and the
general quality is improving IMO.
Funnily enough in the exchanges here about gratitude of France to the
USA, nobody has mentioned the vine stocks that were brought into
France at the end of the 19th century to save France's vinyards where
the vines were being rapidly killed by pholxera
> Although I have only been in France four times, the trips have
always
> been memorable. I think the American's who are bashing France for
> cultural reasons, probably have not spent much, if any, time there.
> There are many great cultural places to visit in the United States,
> but nothing I've seen compares to the Louvre. Interestingly enough,
> the Louvre does not limit itself to French art. It must be because
> the French recognize cultural contributions from around the world.
France is a very interesting country and there is beauty everywhere as
well as a great deal of history. And the Louvre is one of the great
museums of the world. It doesn't confine itself to French Art as none
of the great museums do, the Prado, The Hermitage etc. Europe is
pretty small by your standards and while there were schools in various
countries at various times, the general history of art is one of
influence and exchange because it could hardly be otherwise. Most pre
20th century painting is European too, so there is lots to show.
> On the issue of gratitude, I have at least one story that points to
> France's undying gratitude to the United States:
>
> A good friend of mine took his family to France. They went to
> Normandy, because my friend's father fought there in WWII. When he
> was there, he struck up a conversation with one of the local
> merchants. When he asked my friend why he was there, he told him
> about his father's military past. The man immediately invited my
> friend and his family over for dinner. A complete stranger.
> Furthermore, that same man invited his neighbors over to meet the
> family. They spent the evening talking about the war and how so many
> American's came across the Atlantic, to fight and die for France. So
> people who say that France has forgotten America's contribution to
> WWII are sadly mistaken.
Of course it hasn't and of course it is grateful. Your story reminds
me of the 50th anniversary celebrations of D-Day. The French gave
every old soldier who was present at the commemoration veritable
hero's welcome and every one of the thousands of perfectly kept tombs
in the military cemeteries that fill the byways of Northern France
were decorated with flowers in honour of the brave soldiers who lay
within
them. These men will never be forgotten.
> On my trips to France, only on a few occasions did I run into
> anti-Americanism. I have heard all these horror stories about
> American's being treated poorly. Given my rudimentary knowledge of
> their language, I braced myself for some unpleasant encounters. Much
> to my surprise, I found that most of the French I ran into were
> pleasant and helpful. Certainly I've been treated worse in New York
> city. (Love NY anyway).
Yes it is a bit of a myth. But the French and US citizens are very
dissimilar in some ways and that probably causes trouble for some.
I have always found US Americans extremely
polite and very hospitable. The hospitality is offered quickly which
is less the case in France, though it can be as you say above. They
can seem stand-offish to some. As you have a smattering of the
language and try to use it you immediately show your willingness to
communicate and also show that you could be in need of help, advice, a
story or whatever. That's enough to break the ice with normal people
(that is not including Parisian waiters).
It's like anywhere really, if you turn up with your big boots
trampling on local sensibility you'll be in trouble, if you try to 'do
as the Romans do' then it's usually no problem I find.
I'll skip the Iraq for the moment.
Tell me. Do they grow olives in California and if not, why not?
Joe White
"John of Aix" <j.murph...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
news:b40fu2$1qmr6m$8...@ID-157326.news.dfncis.de...
[SNIP]
>
> Tell me. Do they grow olives in California and if not, why not?
In fact we do and we use it for much of our cooking. Good for the heart and
delicious. The first olive trees were planted around 1789 at the mission in
San Diego.
What is known as "California Cuisine" was heavily influenced by the
Mediterranean diet. Lots of fresh fruits and vegtables, heavy use herbs and
spices (plenty of garlic) and liberal use of olive oil. Of course, no meal
is complete without a good bottle of wine.
BTW, most of the folks I know would only eat at McDonalds uless they had no
other choice. Note the decline in the stock price (MCD). Given all the good
food in France, I do not understand how McDonalds survives in France.
Frankly, if you want fast food there are other very good, fast food places
in California, especially in the metropolitan areas. For example,
"Fresh-Mex" is a spicy combination of Mexican fair using freshly prepared
vegtables and no lard or hydregenated vegtable oil. Korean and Japanese
noodle houses, while not technically fast food, can put serve you a spicy,
delicious bowl of hot soup in a few minutes. There is a Greek place that is
five minutes from my house that makes wonderful lamb kabobs with a side
order of hummus to go. I'm a carnivorous American, so I do enjoy a juicy
hamburger now and then, but with so many wonderful choices I stay away from
McDonalds.
Of course, in the US there is plenty of examples of very bad food found in
both supermarkets and restaurants. Most folks don't even know how bad some
of this stuff is for them. People are learning. I went to the store the
other day and found something like 30 different kinds of olive, walnut,
avocado and canola oil. They must be selling it to someone.
European ex-patriots who settle in California, especially Northern
California, find great comfort knowing that they can find good food often
times prepared by their fellow countrymen. If they are willing to cook
themselves, fresh fruits and vegtables are available year round.
- Joe
>
>
gmoreau
>Funnily enough in the exchanges here about gratitude of France to the
>USA, nobody has mentioned the vine stocks that were brought into
>France at the end of the 19th century to save France's vinyards where
>the vines were being rapidly killed by pholxera
>
Well can you remember where the philoxera came from in the first
place ?...
Gaëtan
------
Bien est donc vrai qu'aux hommes misérables,
Aveugles, imprudents, inquiets, variables,
Pas n'appartient de faire des souhaits,
Et que peu d'entre eux sont capables
De bien user des dons que le Ciel leur a faits.
Tom Traubert
"John of Aix" <j.murph...@libertysurf.fr> wrote:
> Tell me. Do they grow olives in California and if not, why not?
Yes, they do. Avocados, too.
--
Tom
Tom Traubert
"Joe White" <joeXnosp...@san.rr.com> wrote:
> Frankly, if you want fast food there are other very good, fast food places
> in California, especially in the metropolitan areas. For example,
> "Fresh-Mex" is a spicy combination of Mexican fair using freshly prepared
> vegtables and no lard or hydregenated vegtable oil. Korean and Japanese
> noodle houses, while not technically fast food, can put serve you a spicy,
> delicious bowl of hot soup in a few minutes. There is a Greek place that is
> five minutes from my house that makes wonderful lamb kabobs with a side
> order of hummus to go. I'm a carnivorous American, so I do enjoy a juicy
> hamburger now and then, but with so many wonderful choices I stay away from
> McDonalds.
Even if your fast-food yen is for hamburgers, there are (in So. Cal.
anyway) places to go far better than McDonalds; In-N-Out Burger, for
example.
--
Tom
John of Aix
> "John of Aix" <j.murph...@libertysurf.fr> écrivait:
>
>> Funnily enough in the exchanges here about gratitude of France to
the
>> USA, nobody has mentioned the vine stocks that were brought into
>> France at the end of the 19th century to save France's vinyards
where
>> the vines were being rapidly killed by pholxera
>>
> Well can you remember where the philoxera came from in the first
> place ?...
True. Nevertheless they were there when we needed them in this at
least.
Sorry about my spelling of the cryptogammic disease BTW, I don't know
how that got through, I've always known it as Phylloxera in English so
probably Philloxera in French
John of Aix
Yes the latter I knew. I had a Los Angelan firend who considered them
a curse. I divined that this came from his experience as an adolescent
having to clean up the fruit from the avocado tree in the
garden that spalttered all over the tarmac as they ripened and fell
off. A chore like washing the car.
It seemed rather odd to me that one could be pissed off with an
avocado tree until I lived in a place with a Persimmon tree. It's a
big orange edible fruit that ripens in early winter when the tree is
bare but
for these fruit. They go splat-splat on the driveway too. Too many to
eat even if you like them, which I don't, so weeks of cleaning up a
very sticky goo as they fall off the tree and explode over the
driveway. I can understand getting pisse if with avocados.
John of Aix
> "John of Aix" <j.murph...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
> news:b40fu2$1qmr6m$8...@ID-157326.news.dfncis.de...
>
> [SNIP]
>
>>
>> Tell me. Do they grow olives in California and if not, why not?
>
> In fact we do and we use it for much of our cooking. Good for the
> heart and delicious. The first olive trees were planted around 1789
> at the mission in San Diego.
Thanks. Do you know I've asked quite a few US citizens and
Californians this question and none have been able to reply. Most have
been city people so it is understandable in some ways though every
Frenchman, I'm sure, knows that they grow olives in the south of
France. I was begnning to wonder if they really weren't grown there.
> What is known as "California Cuisine" was heavily influenced by the
> Mediterranean diet. Lots of fresh fruits and vegtables, heavy use
> herbs and spices (plenty of garlic) and liberal use of olive oil. Of
> course, no meal is complete without a good bottle of wine.
Yes that's what I thought and that is why it seemed so odd that they
didn't seem to have imported this vital part of Mediterranean cuisine
> BTW, most of the folks I know would only eat at McDonalds uless they
> had no other choice. Note the decline in the stock price (MCD).
Given
> all the good food in France, I do not understand how McDonalds
> survives in France.
McDonalds is quick and easy and you know what to ask for and what
you'll get. It's quick protein. Kids like it too because it is a sort
of club where they can hang out. Restaurants, even simple ones,
require a certain investment on the part of the client. There's room
for them both.
> Frankly, if you want fast food there are other very good, fast food
> places in California, especially in the metropolitan areas. For
> example, "Fresh-Mex" is a spicy combination of Mexican fair using
> freshly prepared vegtables and no lard or hydregenated vegtable oil.
> Korean and Japanese noodle houses, while not technically fast food,
> can put serve you a spicy, delicious bowl of hot soup in a few
> minutes. There is a Greek place that is five minutes from my house
> that makes wonderful lamb kabobs with a side order of hummus to go.
> I'm a carnivorous American, so I do enjoy a juicy hamburger now and
> then, but with so many wonderful choices I stay away from McDonalds.
Yes as I hint above, I'm not really against fast food but there is
better than McDos in this field though the French aren't brilliant at
snacks. There is great stuff in lots of countries in Europe and
elsewhere, they could do with importing some. I expect in Paris it's
better but here in the south it's sandwiches or industrial fast food
with the odd slice of pretty poor pizza here and there.
> Of course, in the US there is plenty of examples of very bad food
> found in both supermarkets and restaurants. Most folks don't even
> know how bad some of this stuff is for them. People are learning. I
> went to the store the other day and found something like 30
different
> kinds of olive, walnut, avocado and canola oil. They must be selling
> it to someone.
I supect that you get a better choice than we do, even in England you
do I think, though you don't get the freshness and the cheapness.
Availability has improved greatly with modern communications and
customer demand has done a lot. Despite the legendary poorness of
British food, cook books are among the biggest sellers in the UK and
people are willing to try anything. French food is great and I love it
but food in France could do with a little more foreign representation.
> European ex-patriots who settle in California, especially Northern
> California, find great comfort knowing that they can find good food
> often times prepared by their fellow countrymen. If they are willing
> to cook themselves, fresh fruits and vegtables are available year
> round.
Cooking and eating are great fun. Every pārt of it can be a pleasure
even the peeling and preoaring if you're in the right mood. The look
and texture of the ingredients. Their reaction with each other. The
colours. The discussions during the meal. The stories about the food
or the wine.The pleasures of life that you don't get at McDo.
Desmond Coughlan
{ snip }
>> BTW, most of the folks I know would only eat at McDonalds uless they had
>> no other choice. Note the decline in the stock price (MCD). Given all
>> the good food in France, I do not understand how McDonalds survives in
>> France.
> McDonalds is quick and easy and you know what to ask for and what
> you'll get. It's quick protein. Kids like it too because it is a sort
> of club where they can hang out. Restaurants, even simple ones,
> require a certain investment on the part of the client. There's room
> for them both.
Quick is better (less greasy), IMHO.
--
Desmond Coughlan
desmond @ zeouane.org
http: // www . zeouane . org
R.V. Gronoff
> Joe White wrote:
>
>
> Yes as I hint above, I'm not really against fast food but there is
> better than McDos in this field though the French aren't brilliant at
> snacks.
Obviously you've never been to a "La Pomme de Pain" restaurant, to enjoy
a baguette sandwich with chips and cider.
--
"Ami si tu tombes, un ami sort de l'ombre a ta place."
(Chant des Partisans)
Joe White
> Joe White wrote:
> > "John of Aix" <j.murph...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
> > news:b40fu2$1qmr6m$8...@ID-157326.news.dfncis.de...
> >
> > [SNIP]
> >
> >>
> >> Tell me. Do they grow olives in California and if not, why not?
> >
> > In fact we do and we use it for much of our cooking. Good for the
> > heart and delicious. The first olive trees were planted around 1789
> > at the mission in San Diego.
>
> Thanks. Do you know I've asked quite a few US citizens and
> Californians this question and none have been able to reply. Most have
> been city people so it is understandable in some ways though every
> Frenchman, I'm sure, knows that they grow olives in the south of
I had the benefit of growing up on a small farm in rural California. It
probably made me more aware of agricultural products then the typical US
citizen. Although California produces a tremendous amount of produce, most
of the people in California now live in urban areas and rarely venture to
the countryside.
We live in the city now, but the country comes to us every week in the form
of a "farmers market". These open-air markets are pretty popular in a lot of
US cities and towns. I understand that they are a very long tradition in
France. Of course, these markets are not nearly as wide spread as what the
French are used to, but they are usually a very good source of fresh,
organic produce. Even the US supermarkets are starting to get into the act
by providing a wider array of organic and vine ripened products.
>
> > What is known as "California Cuisine" was heavily influenced by the
> > Mediterranean diet. Lots of fresh fruits and vegetables, heavy use
> > herbs and spices (plenty of garlic) and liberal use of olive oil. Of
> > course, no meal is complete without a good bottle of wine.
>
> Yes that's what I thought and that is why it seemed so odd that they
> didn't seem to have imported this vital part of Mediterranean cuisine
There are all kinds of folks in the US. Some are greatly aware of politics,
environment, business, etc. Some are less educated and less open minded. I'm
sure you have run into both types on this news group. ;)
>
> > BTW, most of the folks I know would only eat at McDonalds unless they
> > had no other choice. Note the decline in the stock price (MCD).
> Given
> > all the good food in France, I do not understand how McDonalds
> > survives in France.
>
> McDonalds is quick and easy and you know what to ask for and what
> you'll get. It's quick protein. Kids like it too because it is a sort
> of club where they can hang out. Restaurants, even simple ones,
> require a certain investment on the part of the client. There's room
> for them both.
Too funny. You are the first French person I've found who defends McDonalds.
Please, if you are going to bash something American, bash away at McDo's. We
(US citizens) certainly do.
As another poster said, if you do travel to the US, please try one of the
better versions of fast food. We have soooo many... :)
>
> > Frankly, if you want fast food there are other very good, fast food
> > places in California, especially in the metropolitan areas. For
> > example, "Fresh-Mex" is a spicy combination of Mexican fair using
> > freshly prepared vegetables and no lard or hydrogenated vegetable oil.
> > Korean and Japanese noodle houses, while not technically fast food,
> > can put serve you a spicy, delicious bowl of hot soup in a few
> > minutes. There is a Greek place that is five minutes from my house
> > that makes wonderful lamb kabobs with a side order of hummus to go.
> > I'm a carnivorous American, so I do enjoy a juicy hamburger now and
> > then, but with so many wonderful choices I stay away from McDonalds.
>
> Yes as I hint above, I'm not really against fast food but there is
> better than McDos in this field though the French aren't brilliant at
> snacks. There is great stuff in lots of countries in Europe and
> elsewhere, they could do with importing some. I expect in Paris it's
> better but here in the south it's sandwiches or industrial fast food
> with the odd slice of pretty poor pizza here and there.
Fast food is probably a result of our fast paced, very mobile, life style.
Until we had children, my wife and I both worked the typical American work
week which meant 50-60 hours a week with only two weeks off a year for
vacation. Many (most?) married women with children work outside the home, so
there is plenty of people who are simply too tired to prepare food
themselves. The restaurant business responded by creating a myriad of fast
food franchises that cater to folks who want cheap, quick, tasty food.
Unfortunately, tasty does not equal healthy. You may have seen the articles
about the alarming growth rate of both obesity and diabetes in the US. If
France does adopt more of these American institutions I hope they will
insist that the companies to adopt a healthier meal plan.
>
> > Of course, in the US there is plenty of examples of very bad food
> > found in both supermarkets and restaurants. Most folks don't even
> > know how bad some of this stuff is for them. People are learning. I
> > went to the store the other day and found something like 30
> different
> > kinds of olive, walnut, avocado and canola oil. They must be selling
> > it to someone.
>
> I supect that you get a better choice than we do, even in England you
> do I think, though you don't get the freshness and the cheapness.
A temperate climate and a tremendous amount of fertile farm land makes for a
great combination. Just one of the reasons I love living in California.
> Availability has improved greatly with modern communications and
> customer demand has done a lot. Despite the legendary poorness of
> British food, cook books are among the biggest sellers in the UK and
> people are willing to try anything. French food is great and I love it
> but food in France could do with a little more foreign representation.
>
> > European ex-patriots who settle in California, especially Northern
> > California, find great comfort knowing that they can find good food
> > often times prepared by their fellow countrymen. If they are willing
> > to cook themselves, fresh fruits and vegtables are available year
> > round.
>
> Cooking and eating are great fun. Every pārt of it can be a pleasure
> even the peeling and preparing if you're in the right mood. The look
> and texture of the ingredients. Their reaction with each other. The
> colours. The discussions during the meal. The stories about the food
> or the wine.The pleasures of life that you don't get at McDo.
>
Very true, but that's a hard sell to most Americans, especially if it is not
a family tradition. Hopefully more folks are finding the joy in cooking. Its
really not that hard and anyone can make a delicious meal if they put a
little effort into it. The real problem is not in recognizing the pleasures
of a good meal, its in making the time to enjoy the experience.
- Joe
John of Aix
> John of Aix a écrit:
>> Joe White wrote:
>>
>>
>> Yes as I hint above, I'm not really against fast food but there is
>> better than McDos in this field though the French aren't brilliant
at
>> snacks.
>
> Obviously you've never been to a "La Pomme de Pain" restaurant, to
> enjoy a baguette sandwich with chips and cider.
Yes but it is still a sandwich. There are god one and bad ones but
there isn't much else, not much culinary variety available easily I
find.
John of Aix
> "John of Aix" <j.murph...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
> news:b437eq$1rv4jn$1...@ID-157326.news.dfncis.de...
>> Joe White wrote:
>>> "John of Aix" <j.murph...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
>>> news:b40fu2$1qmr6m$8...@ID-157326.news.dfncis.de...
>>>
>>> [SNIP]
> We live in the city now, but the country comes to us every week in
> the form of a "farmers market". These open-air markets are pretty
> popular in a lot of US cities and towns. I understand that they are
a
> very long tradition in France. Of course, these markets are not
> nearly as wide spread as what the French are used to, but they are
> usually a very good source of fresh, organic produce. Even the US
> supermarkets are starting to get into the act by providing a wider
> array of organic and vine ripened products.
Yes as you say, the market is a big and solid tradition in France. In
Aix-en Provence where I lived for a long time (pop 120,000) there is
the 'small' market every day of the year including holidays, it covers
about 100x50 metres and the 'big' market as well on Tuesday, Thursday
and Saturday which covers several acres and includes antiques, second
hand books.discs and clothes, new clothes, odds and ods, fish and, of
course, tons of fine fruit and vegetables. Now I live in a village,
Market day is Monday as it in in the next village . In another it's
Friday, there it's Tuesday, down the valley it's Thursday etc.
Things you always want to and get to know in France, they are
importanr.
>>> What is known as "California Cuisine" was heavily influenced by
the
>>> Mediterranean diet. Lots of fresh fruits and vegetables, heavy use
>>> herbs and spices (plenty of garlic) and liberal use of olive oil.
Of
>>> course, no meal is complete without a good bottle of wine.
>>
>> Yes that's what I thought and that is why it seemed so odd that
they
>> didn't seem to have imported this vital part of Mediterranean
cuisine
>
> There are all kinds of folks in the US. Some are greatly aware of
> politics, environment, business, etc. Some are less educated and
less
> open minded. I'm sure you have run into both types on this news
> group. ;)
I'll say, luckily there are a few sane ones, or at least who have some
self-control. But in this it was more a reference to the lack of
knowledge of the countryside and its ways. I can see why of course
given your geography and history,but here in Europe, and especially
in France, most all the population is no further than the grandchild
of
an 'agriculteur' so the country connexion is very strong
>>> BTW, most of the folks I know would only eat at McDonalds unless
>>> they had no other choice. Note the decline in the stock price
>>> (MCD). Given all the good food in France, I do not understand how
>>> McDonalds survives in France.
People who go to McDo's are not usually too bright. It's a place for
young kids to meet and hang out when they can't think of anything
better to do. Food wise it's crap but quick protein and some go
there just for a quick sugar burst. It has its uses therefore. There's
a niche, McDo's fill it. I'd only criticize the users.
>> McDonalds is quick and easy and you know what to ask for and what
>> you'll get. It's quick protein. Kids like it too because it is a
sort
>> of club where they can hang out. Restaurants, even simple ones,
>> require a certain investment on the part of the client. There's
room
>> for them both.
>
> Too funny. You are the first French person I've found who defends
> McDonalds. Please, if you are going to bash something American, bash
> away at McDo's. We (US citizens) certainly do.
Well I'm not French and I wouldn't like to say that I defend McDonalds
but as I explained above, I can see the point and I can see why they
work. I regret though that that is the case.
> As another poster said, if you do travel to the US, please try one
of
> the better versions of fast food. We have soooo many... :)
Very probably. With such a multi ethnic culture and free enterprise
spirit I'm sure I could find the most esoteric Tibetan fast-food in
NYC if I looked for it.
> Fast food is probably a result of our fast paced, very mobile, life
> style. Until we had children, my wife and I both worked the typical
> American work week which meant 50-60 hours a week with only two
weeks
> off a year for vacation. Many (most?) married women with children
> work outside the home, so there is plenty of people who are simply
> too tired to prepare food themselves. The restaurant business
> responded by creating a myriad of fast food franchises that cater to
> folks who want cheap, quick, tasty food. Unfortunately, tasty does
> not equal healthy. You may have seen the articles about the alarming
> growth rate of both obesity and diabetes in the US. If France does
> adopt more of these American institutions I hope they will insist
> that the companies to adopt a healthier meal plan.
Well this shows up as part of our 'anti-americanism' in Europe. The
protestant work ethic has a job getting over our desire to enjoy life.
We can see the benefits of the US system but we can also see the
losses. We don't want to become like that and so resist while trying
to find a third way.
>> Cooking and eating are great fun. Every pārt of it can be a
pleasure
>> even the peeling and preparing if you're in the right mood. The
look
>> and texture of the ingredients. Their reaction with each other. The
>> colours. The discussions during the meal. The stories about the
food
>> or the wine.The pleasures of life that you don't get at McDo.
> Very true, but that's a hard sell to most Americans, especially if
> it is not a family tradition. Hopefully more folks are finding the
joy
> in cooking. Its really not that hard and anyone can make a delicious
> meal if they put a little effort into it. The real problem is not in
> recognizing the pleasures of a good meal, its in making the time to
> enjoy the experience.
France, as you know perhaps, has two hour lunch breaks. This can often
give time to go home to eat, or a least eat unhurriedly in a
restaurant. In the anglo-saxon world where lunch is an hour or perhaps
less, things are different. A life style problem therefore. In France
we take time for eating whereas perhaps in your world you eat when you
get time. You poor things.
R.V. Gronoff
Otherwise, there are the little 'bistrots' where you can still enjoy a
homemade meal for a reasonable price. A bit like in the British pubs.
I don't know much of Provençal bistrots, but in the surroundings of
Paris you can enjoy a casserole of mussels and a beefsteak with chips
and salad for less than €8.
John of Aix
> John of Aix a écrit:
>> R.V. Gronoff wrote:
>>
>>> John of Aix a écrit:
>>>> Joe White wrote:
>>>> Yes as I hint above, I'm not really against fast food but there
is
>>>> better than McDos in this field though the French aren't
brilliant
>>> at snacks.
>>> Obviously you've never been to a "La Pomme de Pain" restaurant, to
>>> enjoy a baguette sandwich with chips and cider.
>> Yes but it is still a sandwich. There are god one and bad ones but
>> there isn't much else, not much culinary variety available easily I
>> find.
> Otherwise, there are the little 'bistrots' where you can still enjoy
a
> homemade meal for a reasonable price. A bit like in the British
pubs.
True thankfuly and this with the fact that lunch is two hours
normally, the French have the chance to eat a proper meal at midday so
the need for snacks is less.
> I don't know much of Provençal bistrots, but in the surroundings of
> Paris you can enjoy a casserole of mussels and a beefsteak with
chips
> and salad for less than ¤8.
Depends where you go here; Some rely a great deal on the tourist
trade, flourishing in this region, which means they can often be
overpriced, though not always. Others however are the real thing. In
my village one restuaurant does a full meal, starter, main course,
cheese AND dessert + a quarter litre of wine for 11 Euros. the food
and ingredients are pretty good and the staff very friendly. Needless
to say it is always full.
jjustwwondering
> In
> Aix-en Provence where I lived for a long time (pop 120,000)
Somebody has just sent me e-mail about this town;
I quote it below.
I can't verify the report, but perhaps people
in this group can.
||>Subject: Fw: Carving A Jewish Star into the
|| Flesh of a French Jew
||>Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 19:14:45 +0100
||>
||>Jewish student attacked in French town
||>By THE JERUSALEM POST INTERNET STAFF
||>
||> Advertisement
||>
||>Three masked men attacked a 21-year-old female Jewish
||
||>student in the French town of Aix-en-Provence
||>Wednesday and carved a Magen David on her
|| arm.
||>
||>According to a report on Israel Radio, the
|| student was
||>attacked after having attended a discussion on the
||
||>situation in the Middle East held in an
|| Aix cinema.
||>
||> Friends,
||>
||>When someone sent me this article about a
|| Jewish girl in Aix en Provence in
||>> France being accosted by three masked
|| men who called her "dirty Jew" and
||>> proceeded to carve a Jewish star
|| into her flesh, I couldn't believe it. (The
||>> article appeared in Hebrew in the
|| Israeli paper Maariv. I been to the website,
||
||>> and read it in Hebrew. Below
|| is summary).
||>>
||>> So I checked it with my
|| daughter, who is in Paris right now.
||>>
||>> Yes, she said. It's unbelievable. But
|| it happened. The girl, Megli, 21, a
||>> student who lives in this quiet
|| French city, had been to the screening of
|| the
||>> film Decryptage, which shows how the
|| French media has completely twisted and
||>> lied about events in the Middle
|| East to support terrorist Muslims and defame
||>> Israel. Megli took part in the
|| heated discussion afterwards. There were many
||>> Arab anti-Semites who wouldn't let her
|| speak. She then went out with friends.
||>> When she came home, three masked
|| men were waiting outside her door. They
||>> assaulted her, and carved the Jewish
|| star into her arm.
||>>
||>> The victim, who reported this to
|| the local police, says she's in shock.