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Nova grupo <angl-esper-instru>

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Nikolai Grishin

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Mar 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/26/00
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Karaj samideanoj!

Estas bezonata nova dissendolisto, kie oni instruu Esperanton al
anglalingvanoj. Hodiau mi kreis tian dissendoliston. Ghi nomighas
<angl-esper-instru>. Plena titolo: "Esperanto for English-speakers".

Jes, mi scias pri la kurso de Marko Rauhamaa. Ghi funkcias tre bone. Sed la
mondo estas granda. Ju pli da E-kursoj estos en la Reto, des pli bone!
Ne chiu esperantisto povas profesie gvidi E-kurson. Sed chiu povas de tempo
al tempo korekti taskojn de lernantoj, respondi al iliaj demandoj, kuraghigi
ilin. Nia grupo estas por amatoraj instruantoj.

Kiel funkcios tiu dissendolisto? Chiu deziranto abonos ghin kaj prenos
lecionojn el http://www.egroups.com/docvault/angl-esper-instru/. Poste li
sendos siajn taskojn al angl-esp...@egroups.com. Iu ajn esperantisto,
kiu partoprenos tiun grupon, korektos la taskojn kaj resendos ilin al la
grupo (ne private al la lernanto!). Kaj tiel plu.

Lau tia sistemo, chiu tasko estos kontrolita tre rapide (se iu instruanto
forestas, tiun laboron faros alia). Ech lernantoj rajtas kontroli taskojn de
jam lernitaj lecionoj. Instruante, oni lernos mem. La grupo povos enteni
kiom ajn multe da lernantoj, char multaj lernantoj preferos lerni pasive,
nur observante lernadon de aliaj.

Kune kun la instruado la instruantoj respondos al interesaj demandoj de
lernantoj, kaj iliajn respondojn legos chiuj! Do, efikeco de la instruado
estos multe pli alta, ol dum privata instruado. Kaj chefe, dum la instruado
kreighos amikaj rilatoj, amikeca etoso de esperantista kolektivo.

Sed estas grava rimarko. Mi ne shatas x-skribadon. Zamenhof konsilis skribi
literon h anstatau ^, kiam ne eblas tajpi ^. Tial mi shanghis chiujn
cx-kombinojn al ch. Por tio ne necesas aparta permeso. H-skribado estas
Fundamenta.

Mi invitas vin alighi al la laboro! Se vi deziras partopreni, sendu
malplenan mesaghon al angl-esper-in...@egroups.com.

Nikolao

Uncle Davey

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Mar 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/26/00
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You see, you're using again these arguments that Dr. Zankey said this so
we've all got to do it that way.

That's the kind of thinking that makes this language a fossil from a
by-gone age which people have to struggle to update when it doesn't have
to be that way.

If you really feel that way, Nikolao, you should be consistent and only
use the words that Dr Z. used, and not have any modern ones or own
coinages, both of which you use regularly.

The x method is quicker and less confusing than the h method and by
proscribing one rather than the other you are missing the chance to see
which one the new user gravitates towards naturally when unshackled by
prejudice. I noted a learner coming on here for the first time the other
day had picked the x method out of all the methods he must have seen
here.

The science of grammar should be descriptive, not prescriptive. If
people are comfortable with x method, then that should be treated with
equal rights with both the hat method and all the other methods.

Perhaps you would like an entry into people's electronic passports as to
which method they prefer?

Uncle Davey

PS. This isn't in Esperanto, but it's about Esperanto, so I'd like to
ask Ivo Bellefeuille, Sebo Hartwig and all the other hellites not to go
into a tizzy about it.

Jerry Muelver

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Mar 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/26/00
to
Uncle Davey wrote ...

>
> The x method is quicker and less confusing than the h method and by
> proscribing one rather than the other you are missing the chance to see
> which one the new user gravitates towards naturally when unshackled by
> prejudice. I noted a learner coming on here for the first time the other
> day had picked the x method out of all the methods he must have seen
> here.
>

That's an interesting point -- selection by newbies, or the natural
evolution of orthographic expression.

As a new user, I went through the experimental process of trying them all,
and ultimately settled on eks-metodo as the most readable, type-able,
sortable, searchable, and convertible. The tents are cute, but I just don't
have the time and energy to manage the digital gymnastics required to
propagate special-treatment diacriticals throughout my text and content
processing systems.

After all, we are talking about a hobby, here. I would switch in a flash if
there were a compelling economic reason to do so. Failing that, the topic
falls into the "agree to disagree" category, along with "tomato-tomahto" and
beer-drinking preferences.

In a decidedly unscientific experiment, I just searched on AltaVista for "cx
+gx +esperanto" and got 1034 hits. A search for "ch +gh +esperanto" yielded
668 hits. A more refined search pattern would get different quantitative
results, but I would guess the proportions would hold.

--
---- gxero

Volkasko Skupiro - da $itdlbian willi

unread,
Mar 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/26/00
to
je Sun, 26 Mar 2000 10:38:47 GMT, Uncle Davey <un...@davey.pl> skribis
:

>
>The x method is quicker and less confusing than the h method and by

it is less confusing but not quicker :
cx gx hx jx sx ux
ch gh hh jh sh u

so the x-methode is slower .

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/3856/idiindex.htm
ei ihola en noko - ekc oßckupe\ iv adai\umaia
http://purl.oclc.org/NET/nymindex.htm
"wer fu"r alles offen ist kann nicht ganz dicht sein."

azenob...@my-deja.com

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Mar 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/27/00
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In article <107sdskjgo2rnluq5...@4ax.com>,

Volkasko Skupiro - da $itdlbian willi <volk...@yline.com> wrote:
> je Sun, 26 Mar 2000 10:38:47 GMT, Uncle Davey <un...@davey.pl>
skribis
> :
>
> >
> >The x method is quicker and less confusing than the h method and by
>
> it is less confusing but not quicker :
> cx gx hx jx sx ux
> ch gh hh jh sh u
>
> so the x-methode is slower .

But x's position on the keyboard means that it is probably quicker
anyway. Despite the lack of semivowel marker on ux. X method could
leave out ux as well, I've seen some people here write that way.

Uncle Davey


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

azenob...@my-deja.com

unread,
Mar 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/27/00
to
In article <38de1a6a$0$88...@news.execpc.com>,
"Jerry Muelver" <je...@hytext.com> wrote:
> Uncle Davey wrote ...

> >
> > The x method is quicker and less confusing than the h method and by
> > proscribing one rather than the other you are missing the chance to
see
> > which one the new user gravitates towards naturally when unshackled
by
> > prejudice. I noted a learner coming on here for the first time the
other
> > day had picked the x method out of all the methods he must have
seen
> > here.
> >
>
> That's an interesting point -- selection by newbies, or the natural
> evolution of orthographic expression.
>
> As a new user, I went through the experimental process of trying them
all,
> and ultimately settled on eks-metodo as the most readable, type-able,
> sortable, searchable, and convertible. The tents are cute, but I just
don't
> have the time and energy to manage the digital gymnastics required to
> propagate special-treatment diacriticals throughout my text and
content
> processing systems.

I take it that even the much vaunted unicode, which doesn't work on my
system at the moment anyway, requires people to press about three or
four keys at once to get the desired letter?

>
> After all, we are talking about a hobby, here. I would switch in a
flash if
> there were a compelling economic reason to do so.

Exactly.

>Failing that, the
topic
> falls into the "agree to disagree" category, along with
"tomato-tomahto" and
> beer-drinking preferences.

Sometimes it reminds me more of a certain debate that took place in a
distant archipelago regarding which part of an egg should be opened
first.


>
> In a decidedly unscientific experiment, I just searched on AltaVista
for "cx
> +gx +esperanto" and got 1034 hits. A search for "ch +gh +esperanto"
yielded
> 668 hits. A more refined search pattern would get different
quantitative
> results, but I would guess the proportions would hold.

That was very interesting. I wish I'd thought of doing that.

Bertilo Wennergren

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Mar 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/27/00
to

Onklo Dacjo:

> I take it that even the much vaunted unicode, which doesn't work on my
> system at the moment anyway, requires people to press about three or
> four keys at once to get the desired letter?

If you use EK to type Esperanto, you can choose your own typing method.
You can then use one or two key presses for the Esperanto letters.

--
======================================================================
Bertilo Wennergren
<bert...@hem.passagen.se>
<http://purl.oclc.org/NET/bertilo>
======================================================================


WRHarmon

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Mar 29, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/29/00
to
Mi bonvenigas kaj deziras sukceson al la nova entrepreno instrui Esperanton per
la angla.
Tamen...forigi la "x" sistemon simple cxar la organizanto ne sxatas la
aspekton???
Kial ne esti iom pli fleksebla?

Vilcxjo Harmon

Nikolai Grishin

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Mar 29, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/29/00
to
WRHarmon wrote in message...

>Mi bonvenigas kaj deziras sukceson al la nova entrepreno instrui Esperanton
>per la angla.
>
Dankon. Alighu, por almenau pasive observi la instruadon!

>Tamen...forigi la "x" sistemon simple cxar la organizanto ne sxatas la
>aspekton???
>

Tio estas normala afero. Kiu shatas x-skribadon, organizu sian E-lernejon en
la Reto.

>Kial ne esti iom pli fleksebla?
>

H-skribado estas ekzemplo de perfekta fleksebleco, char ghi konformas kun
internaciaj kutimoj.

>Vilcxjo Harmon
>
Nikolao


Uncle Davey

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Mar 29, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/29/00
to

Oh no it doesn't.

In Spanish and English, ch is like in your Esperanto.
In French, ch is like sh in your Esperanto.
In Italian and Romanian, ch is a k in your Esperanto.
In Polish, Welsh , and in German when preceded by a hard vowel, ch is
your hh, and in German when preceded by a soft vowel in
non-Bavarian/Austrian dialects are being spoken it is a sound which
doesn't exist in Espie at all and which I denote in Synthetica as q.
In Swedish it's something else again, correct me Swediewegians if I'm
wrong.
In Polish your ch is cz, in Hungarian cs, in Czech, Slovak and most
latinate South Slav languages it is c with a haczek.
German and Greek don't have the sound, and use combinations of other
letters with t and s to get to it.

In English and no other language I know of is sh represented this way.
If you want that sound in other languages you have to write ch (fr) sch
(ger) si (welsh) sz (Polish) or various diacritics for other Slav langs,
s with a wiggle under in Turkish and Romanian and s on its own in
Hungarian, since sz represents a sibilant s in that language.

I could go on and on, but my parking ticket's running out so I have to
move my backside.

Anyway. H method is not international, Nickyboy. No way.

Internationally confusing, yes. Best go for x method.

Uncle Davey

(Davey's on dxe road again, wearing different clodxes again)

Volkasko Skupiro - da $itdlbian willi

unread,
Mar 29, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/29/00
to
je Wed, 29 Mar 2000 07:56:57 GMT, "Nikolai Grishin"
<konk...@rdven.lv> skribis :

>H-skribado estas ekzemplo de perfekta fleksebleco, char ghi konformas kun
>internaciaj kutimoj.
>

absolutley not ; ch is the esperanto sound hx in Dutch , German , ....

Nikolai Grishin

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Mar 29, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/29/00
to
Uncle Davey wrote in message...

>
>In Spanish and English, ch is like in your Esperanto.
>In French, ch is like sh in your Esperanto.
>In Italian and Romanian, ch is a k in your Esperanto.
>In Polish, Welsh , and in German when preceded by a hard vowel, ch is
>your hh, and in German when preceded by a soft vowel in
>non-Bavarian/Austrian dialects are being spoken it is a sound which
>doesn't exist in Espie at all and which I denote in Synthetica as q.
>In Swedish it's something else again, correct me Swediewegians if I'm
>wrong.
>In Polish your ch is cz, in Hungarian cs, in Czech, Slovak and most
>latinate South Slav languages it is c with a haczek.
>German and Greek don't have the sound, and use combinations of other
>letters with t and s to get to it.
>
Ne gravas, ke 'ch' estas elparolata diversmaniere. Gravas, ke 'h' signas
modifon de la antaua konsonanto.

>Best go for x method.
>

Ghi ne plachis al Zamenhof. :)

>Uncle Davey
>
Nikolao

Uncle Davey

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Mar 29, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/29/00
to

La samo direblas ankau por la x-metodo. Ke rimarkinda koincido!

>
> >Best go for x method.
> >
> Ghi ne plachis al Zamenhof. :)

Eble ne, sed li estas malvivo jam de 1917, se mi ne eraregas.

Okay, let's imagine you want to speak about the cultivation of fruit and
you want to say 'The following strawberry hybrids are aphid-resistant'.
Let's say you want to render the term 'strawberry hybrids' with the
compound noun which I would spell 'fraghibridoj'. (Oder kommt das
ueberhaupt nicht in Frago?) If you want to keep your h-method to please
someone who's been dead nearly a century and who should have as much say
on the development of Esperanto today as Pushkin has on the development
of Russian today or Luther on the latest German spelling reforms or
Shakespeare on twenty first century English, then you have to pronounce
this word fragxibridoj, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Onklo Dacxjo


Eugenio Fabian

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Mar 31, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/31/00
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Uncle Davey ha scritto nel messaggio <38E28CFE...@davey.pl>...

>this word fragxibridoj, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
>
>Onklo Dacxjo
>
En chi tiuj sufiche raraj okazoj oni povas apartigi la du
vortelementojn jene:
frag-hibridoj, mus-haro, senc-hibrido ktp...ktp...La orientanoj
tutcerte ne kolerighus pro tio, ech mi dirus ke ili volus vidi same
chiujn kunmetitajn vortojn.

Eugenio


Uncle Davey

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Mar 31, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/31/00
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Interese.
Mi komencis lerni la pangxabon kaj la transkriba metodo en latinajn
literojn uzata en la unuaj lekcionoj uzas similan solvon kun la '-'.

Kiel oni diras en esperanto:

!@#^&*(){}[]|\/_-=+?

Geamike

Onklo Davey

Bertilo Wennergren

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Apr 1, 2000, 3:00:00 AM4/1/00
to

"Uncle Davey":

> Kiel oni diras en esperanto:

> !@#^&*(){}[]|\/_-=+?

Vidu: <http://www.rano.demon.co.uk/askio.html>

Uncle Davey

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Apr 1, 2000, 3:00:00 AM4/1/00
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Bertilo Wennergren wrote:
>
> "Uncle Davey":
>
> > Kiel oni diras en esperanto:
>
> > !@#^&*(){}[]|\/_-=+?
>
> Vidu: <http://www.rano.demon.co.uk/askio.html>

Dankon. Mi bukmarkis.

Uncle Davey

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