BEAUTIFUL QUEEN TiYE ; A realistic portrait.
THE MIGHTY KUSH
Nice art!
http://www.cldc.howard.edu/~vgm/
Katherine Griffis
Too bad the web page could not have included some "real portraits" of Queen
Tiye rather than an *artist's conception*.
That truly would have been quite beautiful...and historically correct.
Katherine Griffis (Greenberg)
Member of the American Reseach Center in Egypt
THE MIGHTY KUSHITE
>Ah yes...the "Tiye" of the famous "Budweiser" artist from the late 1970's.
What are you talking about now?
>
>Too bad the web page could not have included some "real portraits" of Queen
>Tiye rather than an *artist's conception*.
Yes I agree. Have you ever seen the carved bust of Tiye? She has skin
darker than mine and looks like a friend of mine who is a professor of
African studies.
>
>That truly would have been quite beautiful...and historically correct.
>
But you'd rather someone like Elizebeth Taylor portray the beautiful
African Queen. Sorry, not here.
Have you ever seen the relief carvings of both Tiye and Akenaton? They
typical negroid features. Did you that Tiye was of Nubian origin?
Obviously not.
>Katherine Griffis (Greenberg)
>Member of the American Reseach Center in Egypt
>
THE MIGHTY KUSH
THE MIGHTY KUSHITE
>
>
>Nice art!
>http://www.cldc.howard.edu/~vgm/
>
Quite accurate.
Katherine Griffis
portrait.>, 'THE MIGHTY KUSHITE <rhd...@psu.edu>' wrote:
>>Ah yes...the "Tiye" of the famous "Budweiser" artist from the late
1970's.
>
>What are you talking about now?
Budweiser from the late 1970's and early 1980's: just what I said.
you also said:
"some "real portraits" of Queen >Tiye rather than an *artist's conception*.
Yes I agree. Have you ever seen the carved bust of Tiye? She has skin
darker than mine and looks like a friend of mine who is a professor of
African studies."
Yep: seen that one and the ones in alabaster and in yellow jasper: am I to
presume, then, that Tiye was also yellow and white, like a calico cat?
C'mon, give me a break.
What I am saying here, and you're getting pretty hysterical about this, is
that an "artist's rendition", and especially one done for the "Black
Leaders of Africa" campaign for a major beer distributor is *not*, and I
mean, "*never* a substitute for the historically correct, original artwork,
and you imply in your postings and KMT's postings that this is the *real
thing*. It isn't, and I am just pointing that out.
some "real portraits" of Queen >Tiye rather than an *artist's conception*.
"That truly would have been quite beautiful...and historically correct.
>
But you'd rather someone like Elizebeth Taylor portray the beautiful
African Queen."
Insofar as **Cleopatra** is verified and detailed by the ancients as a
Macedonian Greek, maybe (I find Taylor has very few Greek features, for
example, to play Cleopatra accurately, especially that "hooked nose" that
her portraits in temple carvings show). I, of course, don't believe that
Ms. Taylor would make a good Queen Tiye at all: calm down.
and you said:
"ever seen the relief carvings of both Tiye and Akenaton? They typical
negroid features. Did you that Tiye was of Nubian origin?"
I see we're at that *old saw* again: you have your fantasy here, MK: and
you are welcome to it. BUT the **fact** is, Tiye was a commoner whose
father was general of the Army and not of royal birth. Her father and
mother, Yuya and Thuya, were of non-Egyptian origin,and that was stated by
the ancients themselves, and was evidenced by their mummies when found in
late 19th-early 20th century. Various areas have been suggested as their
origin point, although there is some strong evidence for Mitanni (possibly
Persia?) ties of the Thuya/Yuya/Tiye family, for both political and
religious issues connected with them.
These mummies showed 2 elderly people of 60+ years, with long straight hair
that appeared to be either blonded or hennaed white hair, with hooked noses
of possible Near Eastern origin, and not the origin you claim here.
These pictures of the mummies can be found in *any* good book in Egyptian
history: please: look it up for yourself, as these mummies have been
**verified** as the parents of Tiye. (Try "X-Raying the Pharoahs", by
Harris and Weeks, for both external and internal views of the mummies). I
imagine that Tiye was somewhat similar to her parents, and of course, her
children would have reflected the result of the union with Amenhotep III.
You say you *see* Egyptians of Nubian origin: OK, I agree. That's what you
see...but I see Egyptians of various racial groups reflected in these
paintings and sculptures: that is how the Egyptians saw them, too, and
reflected their paintings to show what differences and similarities there
were, usually in comparison to themselves. Sometimes, even religious or
political issues caused these features to become different, as any book on
the Egyptian art canons will tell you. For example:
Akhenaten's rendering of himself until Year 5 was a very plain,
Thutmosid-style of individual with a hooked nose and all (yes, we have
Thutmosis III's mummy too: see above referenced book, please). After Year
5, we see the long-horse-faced king with hydocephalus...now, which is the
*correct* rendering? Until we find Akhenaten's mummy, we won't know, will
we? So, let's stop making presumptions that *one* painting is *proof* of
something, OK?
Your "artist's conception painting" that you tout here shows only *one*
aspect of the various ways that Tiye was presented: I have seen black, red,
yellow, and white representations of her, and usually these colors reflect
either a) the type of material (stone) used, and/or b) some religious/cult
significance from the burgeoning Aten cult, which was started by the Royal
Family and brought to fruition under Akhenaten.
Again, one picture, or an *especially modern* painting, does not **proof**
make, MK. You should know that, as an anthropologist. Now, please stop
making something out of a general comment I made about a web site.
I'm just pointing out that, while a nice picture, a full rendering of Tiye
in *all her various* styles would have been more appropriate and
"historically accurate", and this painting is not such evidence.
Katherine Griffis (Greenberg)
Member of the American Research Center in Egypt
Malfouf al-Makboos
If MK's sort of research sources were to be believed,
the I must come to the conclusion that frogs can talk!
--
The Hab
Could be but Tiye had sterber lips and her skin colour is not known.
The Hab
THE MIGHTY KUSH
>
> If MK's sort of research sources were to be believed,
>the I must come to the conclusion that frogs can talk!
>
What research are you speaking of? That picture of Tiye has nothing to do
with research, or proving anything. I posted it simply to elicit a
predictable response from people like Katherine Griffy who went absolutely
histerical over it. Its called entertainment, not research.
THE MIGHTY KUSHITE
km...@iag.net
FROM BUDWEISER IN THE EARLY 80s.
AAAHHHH THIS BUD'S FOR YOU!!
GROOVE YOU
Monotheism.."Akhanaten," one day i will make a film of the life of queen
tiye and Akhanaten and honor the legacy of these great african's.
Xina
I wouldnt break my arm patting myself on the back about Akhenaten, GY...
Akhenaten...isnt that the guy who really messed up Egypt's economy, made
his half brother his 'queen' after he banished Nefertiti, AND married his
own daughter (then about age 11 or 12) and sired a child by her...which
of course resulted in her death.... I also heard he sired a child with
his MOTHER Tiye, which was as taboo then as it is now!
These are things that I heard about from different sources, the
reliability of which I can not ascertain. (Would love any assistance on
this!)
Here are some of the more 'Winning" theories (take your pick!):
My *personal favorite* ludicrous theory....
Akhenaten was a space alien sent here by Jehovah so that he could
'enlighten the world' He is also *supposedly* the author of Sacred
Geometry which he got from the Overlords of Time. It later went to
Pythagoras. Drunvalo Malchesidec is really big on this theory that he
said he got DIRECTLY from the Neter, Tehuti (Thoth) himself. Then Thoth
decided to ascend in 1982 and entrusted all of this and other
*vital*information to Drunvallo.... how could we as scientists and
scholars have MISSED THIS?!?! <g>
2)Akhenaten was diseased and syphillitic, also, supposedly the father of
Per 'aa Tutankhamun...Thus his head shape was so odd...I have heard
diseases of one kind or another (maybe thats were the Alien drivel comes
from!)
Akhenaten was not the *wonderous Per'aa* that filmmakers etc. like to
make him out to be. He broke LOTS of rules and was in the face of every
law of Ma'at that was set down from the beinging. IN rebelling against
the corrupt priesthood, he himself was also corrupted...Why else would
they have razed Tel El Amarna to the ground hoping to leave no traces of
him whatsoever?
Anyone care to shed any light on the subject or share any more theories..
In Ma'at
Xina
Katherine Griffis
mother of Mono theism>, 'Xina <xi...@netins.net>' wrote:
>Akhenaten...isnt that the guy who really messed up Egypt's economy, made
>his half brother his 'queen' after he banished Nefertiti, AND married his
>own daughter (then about age 11 or 12) and sired a child by her...which
>of course resulted in her death.... I also heard he sired a child with
>his MOTHER Tiye, which was as taboo then as it is now!
Well, Akhenaten was known to have created the following problems through
Atenism:
a) truly alienated the status-quo-bound people of Egypt
by issuing interdictions against the worship of gods
(Other than the Aten) after Year 5;
b) ignored the affairs of state such that certain trade
and mutual defense treaties with neigboring countries
were allowed to lapse and/or were ignored by the Pharaoh
when foreign suppliants came to request assistance/
goods (See Amarna Letters), leading to their loss for
the New Kingdom influnce beyond Egypt;
c) by moving the *seat of power* from Thebes to the Tell
Amarna area, became more isolated from the affairs of
state, particularly the *everyday* affairs of dispensing
grains and other foodstuffs to the people when the
Nile was in flood. We have *little evidence* that
he undertook many structures (anywhere along the line
of his father, Amenhotep III) beyond a temple in Karnak
*after* his "City of the Horizon" was built in Tell Amarna.
For this reason, there is *some question* as to *what*
the idled populace did during flood season, and with
other temples closed, the usual dispensary of food was not
being kept up (possibly: records are vague here).
As to whether he *banished* Nefertiti, who can say: records merely show her
absence after a certain point. Arguments have been made that she died;
that she *broke* with the extremism of Atenism as practiced by Akhenaten
(or in the alternative, that she *broke* with him because he wasn't extreme
*enough*); that she was merely *replaced* by Meritaten (who was first-born
princess and thereby "heir princess") as wife to *secure* his position as
either a) full Pharaoh (Tiye and Nefertiti being suggested as both
non-royal wives: see Amenhotep's *marriage* to the heir princess Sitamun
for (ostensiby) the same reasoning), or b) a male heir (there was no male
heir recorded: Tutankhamen is usually touted as either a nephew, brother,
or (long-shot) cousin). There was also a running theory that "Smenkhare",
the Pharaoh of the co-regency period, was, in fact Nefertiti under a
**new** name! I think this was done away with when the KV22 tomb was found
with a body intact of a young male in his twenties.
You said:
"... AND married his own daughter (then about age 11 or 12) and sired a
child by her...which of course resulted in her death.... I also heard he
sired a child with his MOTHER Tiye, which was as taboo then as it is now!"
from the stela at Tell Amarna where the eldest (Meritaten) and third
daughter (Ankhsenpaaten) are shown, and Maketaten absent as the family
mourns over a bier with a young female upon it. The child of that union
was also deceased, and is give the name of Maketaten Tasherit (Junior).
I have never heard of the story of siring a child with Tiye, and
personally, I doubt it. He did *marry* his mother at one point, right
after the marriage to Nefertiti, and early in the reign, as (again) there
was some question that Nefteriti was, too, of non-royal blood, and Tiye
would have been *safe* as the reigning queen of Amenhotep III (can't tell
if Akhenaten married her pre- or post-death of Amenhotep: my guess: post).
"Akhenaten was diseased and syphillitic..."
Syphilitic, I have never heard: not that it didn't occur, though.
"Diseased" has been discussed about Akhenaten thoughout history due to his
weird looks in the Amarna period, but there have been some fascincating
arguments that he suffered from Froelich's syndrome, which causes
hydrocephaly, spindle shanks and arms, and usually, pure sterility. This
would, of course, beg the question about the 6 daughters, but what if the
disease was somehow *incomplete*?? Sure would explains a lot with the
looks and all...
Ihab Khalil
: Queen tiye that beautiful african queen that gave birth to the father of
: Monotheism.."Akhanaten," one day i will make a film of the life of queen
: tiye and Akhanaten and honor the legacy of these great african's.
Hey dip-stick,
Monotheism is belief in one god and no others...Akhenaton was NOT
monotheistic!
Moron.
The Hab
----
"Weigh the situation, then move..."
-Sun Tzu's `The Art of War'; VII, 15
Xina
re-checking my sources it seems the reference to Tiye and Akhenaten's
supposed union (and child) I found that it was a fictional work.
Sorry...
Troy Sagrillo
[snip]
> Syphilitic, I have never heard: not that it didn't occur, though.
> "Diseased" has been discussed about Akhenaten thoughout history due to his
> weird looks in the Amarna period, but there have been some fascincating
> arguments that he suffered from Froelich's syndrome, which causes
> hydrocephaly, spindle shanks and arms, and usually, pure sterility. This
> would, of course, beg the question about the 6 daughters, but what if the
> disease was somehow *incomplete*?? Sure would explains a lot with the
> looks and all...
I heard a VERY convincing lecture that Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten) may have
suffered from a genetic condition known as Marfan's Syndrome (which apparently
Abe Lincoln did as well), typfied by long "spidery" limbs, some blindness do to
loose lenses, chest and skull deformations, &c. Also, these people are fertile
(a major problem with the Froelich's syndrome theory). There is a FAQ sheet at:
Troy
Ralph
first recorded woman head of state?
Or how about a movie of the recapturing of northern Egypt from the
Palestinian Hyksos invaders in 1523 BCE? Immediately after this, Egypt
started it's greatest empire, reaching far into Palestine.
BTW, this period of Egyptian strenght was supposedly the time the
Israelites left Egypt. Yet this is when Egypt still controlled the area
the Israelites were supposedly fleeing into.
>one day i will make a film of the life of queen
> >tiye and Akhanaten and honor the legacy of these great african's.
>--
Ralph MacFadden
ilo...@maui.net
http://maui.net/~iloveu
Nigel Strudwick
> Katherine Griffis wrote:
> [snip]
>
> > Syphilitic, I have never heard: not that it didn't occur, though.
> > "Diseased" has been discussed about Akhenaten thoughout history due to his
> > weird looks in the Amarna period, but there have been some fascincating
> > arguments that he suffered from Froelich's syndrome, which causes
> > hydrocephaly, spindle shanks and arms, and usually, pure sterility. This
> > would, of course, beg the question about the 6 daughters, but what if the
> > disease was somehow *incomplete*?? Sure would explains a lot with the
> > looks and all...
>
> I heard a VERY convincing lecture that Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten) may have
> suffered from a genetic condition known as Marfan's Syndrome (which
apparently
> Abe Lincoln did as well), typfied by long "spidery" limbs, some
blindness do to
> loose lenses, chest and skull deformations, &c. Also, these people are
fertile
> (a major problem with the Froelich's syndrome theory).
Just a thought: one thing about Egyptian art is that you can't take
anything at its face value, as I'm always telling students. We should all
consider the possibility that the appearance of Akhenaten is (for some
reason) the way he wanted to be *shown*, rather than necessarily the way
he was. The more fascinating question is "why".
Nigel Strudwick
Mike Tittensor
You are apologising for one incorrect statement?
How quaint.
You're not from these parts, are you stranger?
¤__)
¤ )
--
Mike Tittensor (mi...@heridoth.demon.co.uk)
Xina
>In message <4ke0e8$7...@news.internetmci.com> Xina wrote:
>> Sorry...
>>
>You are apologising for one incorrect statement?
Hey..Im a perfectionist!! *grin*
>
>How quaint.
Well, at least you didnt say 'cute'...Mme. Xina does not do cute!
>You're not from these parts, are you stranger?
>
>¤__)
>¤ )
Umm...no not from the UK but certainly work with lots of folks from there.
(British Telecom). BTW I love your posts...they are always entertaining if
not informative!
Christina VanSpoor
marleen_de_meyer
<snip in Katherine Griffis and Troy Sagrillo...sorry guys>
>Just a thought: one thing about Egyptian art is that you can't take
>anything at its face value, as I'm always telling students. We should all
>consider the possibility that the appearance of Akhenaten is (for some
>reason) the way he wanted to be *shown*, rather than necessarily the way
>he was. The more fascinating question is "why".
>
>Nigel Strudwick
I'd say that as long as Echnaton's mummy's not found, one can *give* him any disease at all
on the bases of his representation in artifacts...for all I care, with his long head
and his pulled out limbs, he could be impersonating a sunbeam, petrified symbol of his
object of adoration, hehehe.
Nevertheless, as much as his physical features may look "realistic", they're still very stylised,
and followed by the high notables of his time...does this mean they *all* had the same disease???
Marleen
Marianne Luban
pharaohs (except perhaps Seti I) his portraits are the most consistent.
Why would an autocrat allow himself to be represented like that unless it
was pretty much what he looked like? Anyway, Amarna art, though often
quirky, also has the distinction of being realistic.
Anyway, back
to Queen Tiye: Which Queen Tiye is the individual from KV35? In my
opinion, the lady whom this mummy most resembles facially from portraits
is King Ay's queen, also called Tiye. She was very close to the Amarna
family, having presumably been the nurse of Nefertiti (and maybe others).
Ay's wife could have left a lock of her hair in Tut's tomb. Don't
forget, she had over two months to do so after the young man died. By
that time she was the first lady of the land. I can't really say whether
the little anthropoid coffin containing the hair made any mention of a
pharaoh, thereby pinpointing the particular Tiye. You are quite right,
however, in that it's unsafe to assume anything about ancient Egypt, but,
you have to admit, that's the whole romance of the field!
-
MARIANNE LUBAN UQR...@prodigy.com
Marianne Luban
portraits are the most consistent and we can get a good picture of him
without his mummy. A mummy isn't the most reliable indicator of how
someone looked in life, either, except for a few well-preserved specimens.
Back to Queen Tiye: Which Queen Tiye is the
individual from KV35? To me, the lady whom this mummy most resembles
from portraits is King Ay's queen, also named Tiye. She was very close
to the Amarna family, having presumably been the nurse of Nefertiti and
maybe others. Ay's wife could have left a lock of her hair in Tut's tomb.
Don't forget, she had over two months to do so after the young man died.
withstanding. I can't say whether the little anthropoid coffin
containing the hair makes any mention of a pharaoh, thereby pinpointing
romance of the whole thing?
-
MARIANNE LUBAN UQR...@prodigy.com