Japanese culture is superior
Tom Tedrick
but who else in the world does?
Their cultural arrogance is what leads them to treat other nationalities
so brutally. That is why they thought they could win a war
with the United States in WW2. The Japanese happen to be
one of the most extreme examples of a bigoted race on the face of
the earth, maybe even more bigoted than the Nazis were. To this
day many of them do not understand that their initiation of
WW2 by their attack on the USA at Pearl Harbor, and their
extremely cruel and brutal violence throughout that era,
were responsible for the suffering they experienced in
WW2. They are masters of blaming everyone but themselves for
the problems they have created. Their schools don't teach
true history, so the generations that have grown up after
the war are ignorant of their barbaric history, possibly
leading them to repeat their mistakes of the past.
"Force, and Fraud, are in warre the two Cardinall vertues ..."
- Thomas Hobbes ...... "A general must prove himself to be an
arch-plotter, a cheat, a thief, and a robber, so that he may
overreach his opponent at every turn ....." - Xenophon
To...@japan.east.asia
|In article <30...@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU>, ted...@ernie.Berkeley.EDU (Tom Tedrick) writes:
|...
|| They are masters of blaming everyone but themselves for
|| the problems they have created.
|
|True their colonization of Korea and parts of China and the WWII atrocities
|by the Japanese army in China are despicable, but so is the British
|colonization of India, the French Colonization of Vietnam and parts of Africa
|and the Dutch colonization of Indonesia, the Chinese govts.' treatment of
|Tibetans, the dictatorial regimes that abound in much of the world, the
|stupidity of all the govts. in the conflicts of South Asia etc. etc.
|
The list can be expanded.
Balboa and Cortez and their successors from Spain or Portugal
literally massacred or enslaved South America's indigenous populations:
Aztecs, Incas, etc.
In the 19th century and early part of the 20th century, the American gov't
ripped off the American Indians. In the "Trail of Tears" in which
hundreds, if not thousands, of Indians were forced to march to
their "new home", many of them died.
There are plenty more examples. Singling out the Japanese is UNFAIR
and smacks of Japan-bashing.
|Also, what about the US bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki; is it fair to
|kill thousands of Japanese citizens as punishment for their govts.' actions?
|
My physics teacher at a high school in the CONSERVATIVE south would
answer, "NO! It would have been equally effective to bomb the military
centers. There was no need to bomb a metropolis of innocent civilians.
There were two reasons for bombing a metropolis. They had nothing to
do with 'the best military strategy'. They were
1) We, the USA, wanted to show the Soviets just how d*mn powerful we were.
2) We wanted to make sure that the number of dead Japanese CIVILIANS
were at least equal to the number of dead American CIVILIANS in
the Pearl Harbor attack."
Incidentally, some "real" Americans thought that heinously interning
the Japanese-AMERICANS was "good" military strategy. I wonder what
those "real" Americans meant. Hmmmm..
|Regards,
|
|Kumar
P.S.
Tedrick also notes that the history books in Japan are supposedly
altered.
I guess that he must mean something like the following:
At one high school in the south, the history book never mentioned the 442nd
army division, which was composed of the sons of Japanese-Americans
heinously interned during the war. The history book never mentioned
that the 442nd was the most decorated, for war casualties and bravery,
division in the army. The history book never mentioned that the
Japanese-Americans, deprived of their finances during the internment
and starting from ground zero, made a very remarkable comeback.
The history book never mentioned the fact that, in the south, the
Asian-Americans like the African-Americans, suffered severe
discrimination and were even denied schooling. The history book
never mentioned the fact that Asian-Americans in California in the late
1800s and early 1900s suffered severe discrimination and were also
denied schooling.
The history book never mentioned the fact that both China and Japan
worked together in the early 1900s to persuade the League of Nations
to pass a piece of legislation declaring the equality of the races.
Both China and Japan thought that the so-called Western powers
viewed orientals to be inferior. The history book never mentioned
that the representatives in the League of Nations rejected that piece of
legislation on the grounds that the representatives' nations'
populations would be most unhappy.
Yeah, I guess that I know what Tedrick means.
To...@japan.east.asia
|...
|Let me point out that I really don't have any problems with the Japanese.
|They did after all manage to catch onto the Industrial Revolution in the
|late-1800's rather than the late-1900's.
|
Well, thank you for acknowledging so.
|I merely don't see any point in China copying their culture.
|...
Hmm... One cultural trait in Japan is that drug abuse is almost
non-existent.
Do you think that this is a good cultural trait for China to copy?
Or do you want to be different?
Hmm... Another cultural trait in Japan is a strong sense of
nationhood.
Do you think that this is a good cultural trait for China to copy?
Or do you want to be different?
Hmm... Another cultural trait in Japan is that the crime rate
is one of the lowest in the industrialized world.
Do you think that this is a good cultural trait for China to copy?
Or do you want to be different?
Hmm... Another cultural trait in Japan is that they believe that
'anyone can succeed educationally if one tries hard enough'.
Japan has the highest literacy rate in the world.
Do you think that this is a good cultural trait for China to copy?
Or do you want to be different?
Hmm... After the Japanese-Americans were heinously interned, they valiantly
and bravely VOLUNTEERED to fight and die in the European theater
to defend their beloved nation, the USA. I believe that this is
also a Japanese cultural trait.
Do you think that this is a good cultural trait for China to copy?
Or do you want to be different?
Hmm... Do you think that any other ethnic group would have done the same
thing for their nation if that nation had similarly deprived the group of
its dignity as citizens?
(....and the list goes on....
_
"Itiban ga Nippon desu, nee.")
Peter Li
>In article <13...@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> j...@athena.mit.edu (Joseph C Wang) writes:
>|...
>|...
>
>Hmm... One cultural trait in Japan is that drug abuse is almost
>non-existent.
>
Ah, yes. Mr. Tokyo is showing his ignorance again :-)...
The "cultural traits" he spoke of are epiphenomenon of "culture".
These traits can not be copied unless there is similar forces
inside both cultures. The traits Mr. Tokyo is recommending China
to copy from Japan are mostly surface (superficial ?) characteristics
of Japan. These surface features simply can not be copied without
copying the underlying "culture". Unfortunately, what makes up
culture (beyond the superficial features) is very complicated and
deep. Furthermore, even if you are successful copying the actual
culture, you will bring over all the bad aspects of that culture
(which has been enumerated many times by reader of SCC).
Copying someone else (superficial and deep) is a very tricky
business, it is not as simple or naive as Mr. Tokyo thinks.
Let this be the final word, I am getting tired of the tirades from
both sides concerning "cultural traits" :-). However, it is a
totally new question as to "what is culture", especially, what makes
up Chinese culture (beyond the superficial features) ? And is this
deeper philosophy and structure common to both PRC and KMT
(i.e. government independence), and in fact, common to all Chinese ?
Time for 10 Ph.D. thesis ?
Peter Li
To...@japan.east.asia
|...
|Ah, yes. Mr. Tokyo is showing his ignorance again :-)...
|
|The "cultural traits" he spoke of are epiphenomenon of "culture".
|These traits can not be copied unless there is similar forces
|inside both cultures.
You are showing YOUR ignorance.
The following is a Japanese cultural trait:
'anyone can succeed educationally if one tries hard enough'.
On a PBS program during which a via-satellite panel discussion
was hosted among 10 (?) experts, 5 in Japan and 5 in the USA., a
former member of the Reagan administration pointed out that Japan's
high academic accomplishment is due to 5 factors. One is the
educational system. The remaining 4 are cultural elements.
Also, "the strong sense of nationhood" is another cultural trait.
Ask Ms. Ching-ning Chu.
| The traits Mr. Tokyo is recommending China
|to copy from Japan are mostly surface (superficial ?) characteristics
|of Japan. These surface features simply can not be copied without
|copying the underlying "culture".
You, Peter Li, evade the questions. Why don't you simply say, "yes or no",
concerning the goodness of these cultural traits? No where
do you even concede that these qualities are good in a society.
| Unfortunately, what makes up
|culture (beyond the superficial features) is very complicated and
|deep. Furthermore, even if you are successful copying the actual
|culture, you will bring over all the bad aspects of that culture
|(which has been enumerated many times by reader of SCC).
|
So, you have made an extended argument AGAINST effecting the kind of
changes needed to bring about these cultural traits. interesting.
|Copying someone else (superficial and deep) is a very tricky
|business, it is not as simple or naive as Mr. Tokyo thinks.
|
It is not as complicated as you, Peter Li, think. Interestingly,
you use an argument form similar to that used by "liberal" educators
in the USA.
For the last 10 years or more, they have been haggling about what to
do for education. Whenever someone suggests an idea, a plurality of them
will shout, "No! No! You just don't understand the situation. That
won't really solve the problem of education." That's the end of that
idea. THere seems to be a constant chorus of defeatism. What is the
result of all this defeatism? There has been zero fundamental
change and improvement in the school system in most school districts.
Everyone can agree that there is a problem. Just about everyone loves
to shoot down an idea. But no one can muster enough support for some
thing substantive.
Specifically, Mr. Bennet, the former Secretary of Education, suggested
that a curriculum containing so-and-so courses. He wanted them to be
mandatory. These courses were selected by studying the curriculum of
SUCCESSFUL schools, which produced the highest-achieving students in the
nation.
What did the critics immediately respond?
They immediately mentioned two things: 1) The curriculum was
racist. 2) Mr. Bennet's curriculum won't do anything for the
unsuccessful schools because (for tons of reasons) they are located in
milieus which aren't conducive for education.
By analogy, someone mentioned the cultural charateristics of
a successful nation and wanted an unsuccessful nation to emulate them.
What did the critics immediately answer?
The immediately mentioned two things: 1) The successful nation
committed war crimes. 2) That person's proposals won't do anything
for the unsuccessful nation because (for tons of reasons) it is
located in a socio-economic setting which can't be engineered
in that way.
Peter li, enjoy your defeatism.
To...@japan.east.asia
|culture (beyond the superficial features) is very complicated and
|deep. Furthermore, even if you are successful copying the actual
|culture, you will bring over all the bad aspects of that culture
|(which has been enumerated many times by reader of SCC).
So, you have made an extended argument AGAINST effecting the kind of
changes needed to bring about these cultural traits. interesting.
Although you evade commenting directly on the merit of the stated
cultural traits, you do try, at length, to discredit them. Therefore,
one can conclude that you disapprove of them. Hence, without stretching
the imagination, your viewpoint can be summarized as follows.
Peter Li states, "In order to copy this cultural trait, good
and bad cultural aspects must be copied. The bad aspects outweigh
the good ones. Therefore, this cultural trait should NOT be
copied."
In order to get a really good contrast, your response should
be juxtaposed with my questions. In addition, some of the cultural traits
are indeed fundamental cultural forces and not merely consequences of
them. For these cultural traits, I have modified your "stated" viewpoint
but have preserved your intent to discredit them and to disapprove of
them.
For the other cultural traits, I disagree with your assertion that
they are not fundamental cultural forces. But I will concede
your point for the sake of argument--for now. For these cultural
traits, I have left you "stated" viewpoint in tact.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hmm... One cultural trait in Japan is that drug abuse is almost
non-existent.
Do you think that this is a good cultural trait for China to copy?
Or do you want to be different?
Peter Li states, "In order to copy this cultural trait, good
and bad cultural aspects must be copied. The bad aspects outweigh
the good ones. Therefore, this cultural trait should NOT be
copied."
Your statement leads to the conclusion that a higher drug
abuse rate is tolerable. I disagree.
Hmm... Another cultural trait in Japan is a strong sense of
nationhood.
Do you think that this is a good cultural trait for China to copy?
Or do you want to be different?
Since this is a fundamental trait (without doubt), you would
answer somewhat differently. So, Peter Li would state, "This
fundamental cultural trait is bad. Lessening nationhood and the
concomitant increasing of factionalism would be better."
I disagree for obvious reasons.
Hmm... Another cultural trait in Japan is that the crime rate
is one of the lowest in the industrialized world.
Do you think that this is a good cultural trait for China to copy?
Or do you want to be different?
Peter Li states, "In order to copy this cultural trait, good
and bad cultural aspects must be copied. The bad aspects outweigh
the good ones. Therefore, this cultural trait should NOT be
copied."
Your statements lead to the conclusion that a higher crime rate is
tolerable. I disagree.
Hmm... Another cultural trait in Japan is that they believe that
'anyone can succeed educationally if one tries hard enough'.
Japan has the highest literacy rate in the world.
Do you think that this is a good cultural trait for China to copy?
Or do you want to be different?
Peter Li states, "In order to copy this cultural trait, good
and bad cultural aspects must be copied. The bad aspects outweigh
the good ones. Therefore, this cultural trait should NOT be
copied."
Your statement leads to the conclusion that a lower literacy
rate is tolerable. I disagree.
Hmm... After the Japanese-Americans were heinously interned, they valiantly
and bravely VOLUNTEERED to fight and die in the European theater
to defend their beloved nation, the USA. I believe that this is
also a Japanese cultural trait.
Do you think that this is a good cultural trait for China to copy?
Or do you want to be different?
Peter Li states, "In order to copy this cultural trait, good
and bad cultural aspects must be copied. The bad aspects outweigh
the good ones. Therefore, this cultural trait should NOT be
copied."
I disagree.
Hmm... Do you think that any other ethnic group would have done the same
thing for their nation if that nation had similarly deprived the group of
its dignity as citizens?
Peter Li would answer, "No. But the other groups' behavior is an
overall "GOOD". Why? In order to copy this Japanese cultural behavior,
both good and bad aspects must be copied. The bad aspects outweigh
the good aspects. The NET result is an overall 'BAD'."
Bei...@china.asia.earth
)
) |I merely don't see any point in China copying their culture.
) |...
)
)Hmm... One cultural trait in Japan is that drug abuse is almost
)non-existent.
)
)Do you think that this is a good cultural trait for China to copy?
)Or do you want to be different?
What a edgeless mouth, Samurai Sensei! You must have been
thinking that Chinese are taking LSD or Marijuna as their daily
food? Why didn't you laugh them first about the fact that
they are unable to afford such luxury ``drug abuse''? Be a
bit objective! I do think Chinese should learn some cultural
stuff from Japan as well as from other great cultures in the
world, but I don't think such an ``almost non-existent drug
abuse'' is one of the major cultural traits other nations should
learn from. Please present some real stuff before you ask China
to ``copy''. Hope you won't teach your old granny how to suck eggs.
)Hmm... Another cultural trait in Japan is a strong sense of
)nationhood.
)
)Do you think that this is a good cultural trait for China to copy?
)Or do you want to be different?
Why do you think this is a ``good'' and ``cultural'' trait!
This strong sense of nationhood has once been utilized
by the military government of Japan to drive millions of
young Japanese into battle fields of killing and being killed,
merely for the ambitions of a few leaders with ``Samurai pride
and tradition''. Everything is two-sided. This ``strong sense''
sacrifies individual's desire for freedom and creativity.
In Japan, this is almost a continuation of the feudalist
blind faith to the Emperor. I'd suggest that Japan learn
something from other cultures to overcome the short-coming
inbedded in this ``strong sense''.
)Hmm... Another cultural trait in Japan is that the crime rate
)is one of the lowest in the industrialized world.
)
)Do you think that this is a good cultural trait for China to copy?
)Or do you want to be different?
Still, this is not a ``cultural trait'' at all like the ``drug
abuse''. I don't know why you credit all these small social
phenomena to Japanese culture. Do you really know where is
the real Japanese culture is?! Is there any knowledgable
Japanese friend on the net? Why don't just come up to help
a bit our Samurai defender of Japanese Culture.
)Hmm... Another cultural trait in Japan is that they believe that
)'anyone can succeed educationally if one tries hard enough'.
)Japan has the highest literacy rate in the world.
)
)Do you think that this is a good cultural trait for China to copy?
)Or do you want to be different?
You may feel proud of the educational achievement Japan
has made in the past 40 years. But this is once again not
a ``cultural'' heritage at all. Actually, the slogan you
quoted looks even more an American one than Japanese, BTW.
[more culture-irrelevant stuff deleted...]
)(....and the list goes on....
But it says nothing.
I'm quite disappointed that you're just a kid with
fantasy and dream to be a Samurai. You're far from a
real Samurai! Don't pull out your toy-sword everywhere.
I'm sure most netters have enough amusement to watch
kids playing.
) "Itiban ga Nippon desu, nee.")
Joseph C Wang
In article <48...@portia.Stanford.EDU> To...@Japan.East.Asia writes:
(In effect)
The Japanese breath oxygen. This is a cultural trait of the Japanese.
Peter Li believes that the Chinese should not copy Japanese culture.
Therefore Peter Li believes that the Chinese should not breath oxygen.
This is a ridiculous argument.
The problem with most of the things that Dwight Joe mentioned is that
they are traits of Japanese culture as well as traits of that bastion
of multi-culturalism Switzerland as well as about a dozen other
different nations I can name.
Dwight Joe implies that to acquire those traits requires copying them from
the Japanese.
This is wrong.
By the way, I read with a bit of amusement some of Dwight Joe's examples.
>Hmm... One cultural trait in Japan is that drug abuse is almost
>non-existent.
>
>Do you think that this is a good cultural trait for China to copy?
>Or do you want to be different?
Drug abuse is almost non-existent in China. That's one of the few
good things the Communists did. There's no need to copy this cultural
trait from anyone since it already exists.
>Hmm... Another cultural trait in Japan is a strong sense of
>nationhood.
>
>Do you think that this is a good cultural trait for China to copy?
>Or do you want to be different?
The Chinese have had a strong sense of nationhood for over two thousand
years. Even during periods of intense political chaos, the idea that there
ought to be one China has rarely been challenged. Again there is no need to
borrow this trait from anyone.
>Hmm... Another cultural trait in Japan is that the crime rate
>is one of the lowest in the industrialized world.
The crime rate (I mean the non-official kind) in China is one of the lowest
in the world PERIOD.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Wang (j...@athena.mit.edu) Wake Up! Wake Up!
450 Memorial Drive C-111 All who wish not to be slaves.
Cambridge, MA 02139
Eric Holeman
> Hmm... One cultural trait in Japan is that drug abuse is almost
I'd like to hear you repeat that after you'd sat through one of my
office's sake parties. Next time you visit Japan, keep your eyes
open for businessmen quaffing caffeine/nicotine laden "vitamin"
drinks. Or just keep your nostrils peeled for the omnipresent
cigarette smoke. Then, as we walk through Roppongi, being
careful not to trip over the sararimen losing their senbei on
the sidewalk, you can tell me all about how there's no drug
abuse in Japan.
Incedentally, the current issue of Tokyo Journal (Japan Journal in
the U.S.) has an interesting article on the rise of illegal
amphetamine use in Japan.
"Nice Day. Nice Smoking."
--
Eric Holeman erasure@max (bitnet) shink@blake (uucp)
"The policeman's job is not to create disorder.
The policeman's job is to preserve disorder."--Richard J. Daley
To...@japan.east.asia
|...
|You may feel proud of the educational achievement Japan
|has made in the past 40 years. But this is once again not
|a ``cultural'' heritage at all. Actually, the slogan you
|quoted looks even more an American one than Japanese, BTW.
There seems to be a myth in the USA concerning the educational
philosophy of orientals. The myth says that oriental cultures
value education more than anyone else.
Well, I submit that the myth is wrong. Japan (and possibly
South Korea but I will have to check on S. K.) had a literacy rate of
70% in the late 1800s. That is 2 to 3 times the literacy
rate in the China of 1949 before the CCP took over.
If one had to group educational philosophies, then the
Chinese educational philosophy is closer to that of the USA
than to that of Japan. But you say, "Wait! I thought that
Confucianism emphasized education." True. But that doesn't
mean that the Chinese followed that particular tenet of
Confucianism.
And the Chinese SHOULD copy the Japanese in their educational
philosophy.
But apparently, Joseph Wang and Peter Li believe differently.
Joseph C Wang
>Well, I submit that the myth is wrong. Japan (and possibly
>South Korea but I will have to check on S. K.) had a literacy rate of
>70% in the late 1800s. That is 2 to 3 times the literacy
>rate in the China of 1949 before the CCP took over.
Comparing apples and oranges.
The Japanese began industrializing in the 1870's. By 1890, Japan was well
on its way to being a developed nation.
To make a meaningful comparsion one would compare American literacy in
1790 with Japanese literacy in 1840 with Korean literacy in 1890 with
Chinese literacy in 1940. I suspect each of the four would be around
10-30 percent. Show me otherwise, I'll eat crow.
Literacy in general coorelates less with culture than with economic development.
A peasant in general has neither the time nor the need to learn how to read.
>And the Chinese SHOULD copy the Japanese in their educational
>philosophy.
Actually, the values of Japanese and Chinese regarding education are remarkable
similar, which is hardly surprising since the Japanese adopted the Chinese
philosophy of Confucianism. The educational systems are also similar since
both are modeled after the European systems of the late-1800's. The difference
is in the economies of the two nations.
>But apparently, Joseph Wang and Peter Li believe differently.
Innuedo does not become you.
Too...@nihon.east.asia
|1790 with Japanese literacy in 1840 with Korean literacy in 1890 with
|Chinese literacy in 1940. I suspect each of the four would be around
|10-30 percent. Show me otherwise, I'll eat crow.
|
I shall endeavor to do so.
|Literacy in general coorelates less with culture than with economic development.
Oh?
Could you explain why the literacy rate in Japan is 99.7% and why
the literacy rate in the USA is 75%? Are you sure that this
has little to do with culture?
Joseph C Wang
>|Literacy in general coorelates less with culture than with economic development.
>
>Oh?
>Could you explain why the literacy rate in Japan is 99.7% and why
>the literacy rate in the USA is 75%? Are you sure that this
>has little to do with culture?
More with statistics than with culture. Literacy rates vary based on who you
ask and what you define as being literate. Most international comparisions
measure basic literacy (third grade reading level). Most comments on U.S.
education measure functional literacy (eighth grade reading level).
I seriously doubt that the basic literacy level of the U.S. is 75%, and I doubt
that there are readily available statistics for Japanese functional literacy.
Specifically, I'll also eat crow if the latest World Almanac lists the
U.S. literacy rate as 75%.
The figures I've seen are P.R.C. - 60 to 80 %
U.S., Japan, Taiwan 90+%.
Peter Li
In article <48...@portia.Stanford.EDU> To...@Japan.East.Asia writes:
>Although you evade commenting directly on the merit of the stated
>cultural traits, you do try, at length, to discredit them.
Not really, only one paragraph. But I would say the "traits" are
noble GOALS for all society to reach.
>Therefore,
>one can conclude that you disapprove of them. Hence, without stretching
>the imagination, your viewpoint can be summarized as follows.
>Peter Li states, "In order to copy this cultural trait, good
>and bad cultural aspects must be copied. The bad aspects outweigh
>the good ones. Therefore, this cultural trait should NOT be
>copied."
Now the more difficult question, how do you just copy the "traits"
you listed without copying the complete culture, lock, stock, and barrel ?
I did not go as far as saying the reason for not copying is that bad
aspects outweighs the good. I simply said the solution is not simple
(at least too complex for my limited mind). Nevertheless, I would be
very careful on how to implement SOCIAL STRUCTURES to achieve these GOALS.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Hmm... One cultural trait in Japan is that drug abuse is almost
>non-existent.
Now for the meat. First, sociology is not my field. But let's give it
a shot. The concept of "drug abuse" can be expanded to substance
abuse, because "drug" implies against-the-law and the legality of drugs
changes with popular opinion. So, is Japan free of substance abuse ?
This type of behavior, the dependency syndrome, is common to many
(all?) societies. As long as it doesn't get out of the social norm, it
is merely "redefined" to something more socially acceptable. A good
GOAL, however, is to achieve is the reduction of dependency syndrome
related behavior. Now, to be practical, how do you achieve low
dependency syndrome, regardless of the social acceptance ? I am sure
Mr. Tokyo is super-intelligent and can provide an obvious method that I
overlooked.
>Hmm... Another cultural trait in Japan is a strong sense of
>nationhood.
Ah. Something closer to a real "trait". I believe China "had" a strong
sense of nationhood (or at least until recently). There are good
and bad aspects of this sense. I believe some other readers already
addressed this. "Sense of nationhood" is really a type of identification
behavior. This has to do with the how the person is brought up, how
the "nurture" mechanism is used to enforce the identification of self
with X (whatever X is). It is difficult to achieve this identification
if you are brought up in a racially/"culturally" mixed environment.
There is also a certain amount of conformity that is needed before this
identification can be effectively imprinted on the person. What is
the price to pay for conformity vs the price for national identification ?
There is an obvious need for nationhood, otherwise it falls apart, but
how much is too much ? too little ? I am sure someone will have the
exact figures :-).
>Hmm... Another cultural trait in Japan is that the crime rate
>is one of the lowest in the industrialized world.
See drug abuse. Apply similar analysis.
>Hmm... Another cultural trait in Japan is that they believe that
>'anyone can succeed educationally if one tries hard enough'.
>Japan has the highest literacy rate in the world.
Actually, the belief that "hard work will pay off" is also true of
Chinese, I think most readers will agree on this. However, I think
achieving the high literacy rate is independent of culture, provided the
government enforce it. The Chinese must be one of the most
"ideologically" educated people (2nd to N. Korea :-). Okay, so we must
separate the educational structure (the delivery system) from the
content (what is taught). Just think of the potential if CCP used their
propaganda machine for "real" education of the rural folks. In a way,
this is not a trait to be copied, it is a trait to be CORRECTED :-).
>Hmm... After the Japanese-Americans were heinously interned, they valiantly
>and bravely VOLUNTEERED to fight and die in the European theater
>to defend their beloved nation, the USA. I believe that this is
>also a Japanese cultural trait.
>Hmm... Do you think that any other ethnic group would have done the same
>thing for their nation if that nation had similarly deprived the group of
>its dignity as citizens?
Probably from the strong sense of nationhood, not a new trait.
Possibly to show their commitment to USA. Better ask a veteran,
since I really don't know. Any netters know a Japanese American
who fought in WW II (for USA) and know the reason for their valor ?
In article <48...@portia.Stanford.EDU> To...@Japan.East.Asia writes:
>Specifically, Mr. Bennet, the former Secretary of Education, suggested
>that a curriculum containing so-and-so courses. He wanted them to be
>mandatory. These courses were selected by studying the curriculum of
>SUCCESSFUL schools, which produced the highest-achieving students in the
>nation.
>
>What did the critics immediately respond?
>
>They immediately mentioned two things: 1) The curriculum was
>racist. 2) Mr. Bennet's curriculum won't do anything for the
>unsuccessful schools because (for tons of reasons) they are located in
>milieus which aren't conducive for education.
May be the critics should take up Mr. Bennet's recommendation: install
the curriculum in a test sample of schools. And WHEN it fails, "I told
you so" :-). Seriously, we can't quite perform the experiments needed
to find the correct combination of cultural traits. But assuming the
social GOALS are noble, the next step is how to make it so ?
I am not trying to be defeatist nor pessimistic. But I think the
statements made by Mr. Tokyo are too pie-in-the-sky. If he is to make
proposals, such as copying cultural traits, he should also detail the
method to achieve them. Otherwise, they are just simple dreams and
wild fancy.
I may have erred when I dismissed the "traits" on the basis of
complexity. I will let Mr. Tokyo enlighten himself. So here is my
challenge: HOW ?
Peter Li
Gregory Kemnitz
So now we are going to have the Shaolin Priest duking it out with the
Samurai?? :-)
If you are going to post under assumed names, please be so kind as to place
your right address in your Reply-To line or in your .signature, especially
if you intend to post potentially inflammatory articles. This allows
personal flamage to take place off-line in e-mail without wasting the
bandwidth of USENET on them.
Many sites, including universities, consider ghost postings to be a violation
of USENET privileges and an abuse of computing facilities.
----------------------------------+--------------------------------------
Greg Kemnitz | Software without hardware is an idea.
kem...@Convergent.COM | Hardware without software is a space heater.
after 9/11/89: |
kem...@postgres.berkeley.edu | --Unknown author
Bei...@zhongguo.asia.earth
>
> From: Too...@Nihon.East.Asia
^^^^^
Later, he changed to the correct one as:
> From: Too...@Nippon.East.Asia
^^^^^^
Oh, great, Samurai Sensei! No wonder you ignored my
request that you teach some real Japanese Culture
to us Ugly Chinamans. How come you pronounce such
a dearest word as ``Japan'' in your mother tongue
into something like ``Nihon''? Did you fabricate the
word by borrowing ``Ni'' from ``Nissan'' and ``Hon''
from ``Honda''? :-) No wonder you concluded Japanese
Culture as something like ``drug abuse'' etc.! Please
come out tell us something real Japanese on both
SCC and SCJ, e.g., your opinion about the ``The Tale
of Genji'' in pure Japanese. Otherwise, don't call
yourself ``Samurai''. Forget your annals of MITI for
a while, please. :-)
Shaolin Temple Stick Monks
wayne.w.lui
>
>Hmm... Another cultural trait in Japan is that the crime rate
Read about "The Land of the Rising Gun" in this week's (8/26)
"The Economist" and learn about why the Minister of Justice in
Japan wants to lower the death penalty age limit to 19, and you
may think otherwise.
While the number of "reported crimes" per unit population in
Japan maybe the lowest among industrialized countries, this may
NOT mean that there are less crimes committed in Japan. For
one thing, the Japanese yakuza are well-organized and powerful,
even the Japanese police may not want to bother them as much.
On the other hand, considering the taboo a Japanese has to bear
when s/he reports a crime, perhaps this IS the Japanese cultural
trait that has been keeping the crime rate in Japan seemingly low.
Wayne Lui
Too...@nihon.east.asia
|
||Well, I submit that the myth is wrong. Japan (and possibly
||South Korea but I will have to check on S. K.) had a literacy rate of
||70% in the late 1800s. That is 2 to 3 times the literacy
||rate in the China of 1949 before the CCP took over.
|
|Comparing apples and oranges.
|
|The Japanese began industrializing in the 1870's. By 1890, Japan was well
|on its way to being a developed nation.
|
|To make a meaningful comparsion one would compare American literacy in
|1790 with Japanese literacy in 1840 with Korean literacy in 1890 with
|Chinese literacy in 1940. I suspect each of the four would be around
|10-30 percent. Show me otherwise, I'll eat crow.
|
|Literacy in general coorelates less with culture than with economic development.
|A peasant in general has neither the time nor the need to learn how to read.
It is time for you to eat CROW!
"Science and Technology in Japan"
by Alun M. Anderson
(c) 1984
"School attendance in 1866 (the year before the Meiji Restoration) is
estimated at 56% for males and 15% for females, and the illiteracy rate
to be LESS than 30%. These figures put Japan well ahead of the rest of the
world at that time."
In other words, the literacy rate prior to industrialization
(which occurred AFTER 1866) was greater than 70%. 1866 is close enough
to 1840, for the purposes of this argument!
You assert that 1840 Japan had AT MOST a 30% literacy rate. By 1866
Japan had AT LEAST a 70% literacy rate. In order to reconcile the
difference, the literacy rate must have jumped by AT LEAST 40% within
16 years. That's impossible.
Therefore, in 1840, Japan had a literacy rate around 70%.
Therefore, YOU MUST EAT CROW, like you promised.
Further, you asserted that industrialization is
needed to achieve a high literacy. WRONG!
Japan had AT LEAST a 70% literacy rate PRIOR TO industrialization.
Therefore, YOU MUST EAT CROW, like you promised.
Want some ketchup?
Actually, I think that you should admit that culture is important
for economic development.
_
Joseph C Wang
>It is time for you to eat CROW!
CAW! CAW!
>"School attendance in 1866 (the year before the Meiji Restoration) is
>estimated at 56% for males and 15% for females, and the illiteracy rate
>to be LESS than 30%. These figures put Japan well ahead of the rest of the
>world at that time."
My source "Science and Technology in Traditional Japan", part of the MIT
East Asian Science series, doesn't give an exact literacy rate for Japan, but
it states that it was high enough for there to be 600 publishing houses at
the start of the 1800's.
The main reason for the relatively high literacy rate was a system of primary
education established in the 1700's.
Furthermore, I've gotten a letter that states that literacy in New England in
the 1760's was over 90%. Therefore, my assertion that literacy is an effect
of industrial development is completely, utterly, totally wrong.
>Want some ketchup?
Pass the mustard.
>Actually, I think that you should admit that culture is important
>for economic development.
Culture is important for economic development so far as it affects things
such as literacy.
Too...@nihon.east.asia
Too...@nihon.east.asia
Too...@nihon.east.asia
Too...@nihon.east.asia
|
|Oh, great, Samurai Sensei! No wonder you ignored my
|request that you teach some real Japanese Culture
^^^^^^^^^
You have used this offensive term. A kentaro@.....
sent me mail and also used that term. I do not know if
this "kentaro@...." is a masquerade by you.
In any case, I would like to inform you (both of you?) that terms like
"chinaman", "chink", "jap", etc. are extremely offensive
to all East-Asian Americans: Chinese-Americans, Japanese-Americans,
and Korean-Americans. These terms are considered racial slurs.
Please refrain from using such terms.
Thank you.
Kentaro Yamamoto
> |Oh, great, Samurai Sensei! No wonder you ignored my
> |request that you teach some real Japanese Culture
> |to us Ugly Chinamans...
> ^^^^^^^^^
> You have used this offensive term. A kentaro@.....
> sent me mail and also used that term. I do not know if
> this "kentaro@...." is a masquerade by you.
Yes, I did send you a mail but I'm not the Mr/Ms Beijing.
We're not related at all. I just feel interesting you
didn't act to his/her request like a real Samurai should.
I fingered you and found you shows that you're very fascinated
by our Japanese girls. I sorta feel you're quite coward to
face Mr/Ms Beijing's challenge for a real Japanese culture
lecture. In fact, I could be a good judge on your knowledge of
Japanese culture (which you're crazy about on SCC), if you
did as requested by Mr/Ms Beijing. If you really send such
an article completely in Japanese, I shouldn't have any problem
to read it. Familiarity on some Japanese annals or texts on
Japan doesn't mean you truely understand Japan and its culture.
(To Mr/Ms Beijing: You mentioned "The Tale of Genji", did you
read it in Japanese or in Chinese? Or more precisely, is there
any Chinese version available in Beijing?)
> In any case, I would like to inform you (both of you?) that terms like
> "chinaman", "chink", "jap", etc. are extremely offensive
> to all East-Asian Americans: Chinese-Americans, Japanese-Americans,
> and Korean-Americans. These terms are considered racial slurs.
Why do you only include <ethnic>-Americans? This isn't offensive
to all Chinese who're now not in America? I used it kiddingly in my
letter to you, like I used to kid my Chinese friends. I hope you
not to take it too seriously. It would be completely wrong if you
even interpreted it as a "Chinese culture trait of racialism"
from Mr/Ms Beijing's usage of "Ugly Chinaman".
By the way, Mr/Ms Beijing is correct that you should call
"Japan" Nippon in Japanese even though you say "Nihon Go"
when referring to its language.
Kentaro Yamamoto
Mike Mahler
$ In article <49...@portia.Stanford.EDU$ Too...@Nihon.East.Asia writes:
$ $ |Oh, great, Samurai Sensei! No wonder you ignored my
$ $ |request that you teach some real Japanese Culture
$ $ |to us Ugly Chinamans...
$ $ ^^^^^^^^^
$ $ You have used this offensive term. A kentaro@.....
$ $ sent me mail and also used that term. I do not know if
$ $ this "kentaro@...." is a masquerade by you.
shitsurei shimashita...
Can someone please send me mail telling me exactly what is oing
on here?
Bei...@zhongguo.asia.earth
Avery Ray Colter
...and the Japanese/Korean/Chinese internecine war goes on......
--
Avery Ray Colter av...@well.sf.ca.us 7106...@compuserve.com
{apple,lamc,lll-winken,cogsci,hplabs,pacbell}!well!avery
"....Fat-Bottomed Girls, You Make the Rockin` World Go ROUND!" -Queen
Too...@nippon.east.asia
|Too...@Nippon.East.Asia writes:
|| Also, our Congressmen don't have to live or to experience every single issue
|| in order to decide intelligently about it. It suffices for them,
|| the Congressmen, to listen to expert testimony or to READ the thoughts
|| of those who are experts on the topic.
||
|I'll leave this for other American netters to rate
|and comment their Congresspersons' ``intelligent decisions''. :-)
Mr. Beijing, I have NO intention of allowing you to deride the American
government.
For your information, the 20th has been known as the American century.
Beginning with Theodore Roosevelt, the USA embarked on a new era
as an economic and political power to be reckoned with. (Japan
has done a magificient job, given its lack of natural resources, though.)
Theodore Roosevelt obtained legislation, PASSED BY THE
CONGRESS, to protect the environment, to fight monopolies,
to ensure the safety of our foods, etc.
Woodrow Wilson obtained legislation, PASSED BY THE CONGRESS,
such as good child-labor laws, etc.
Franklin D. Roosevelt obtained legislation, PASSED BY THE CONGRESS,
to provide social-welfare protection for the needy, to send American
troops to defend the free world against the Axis Powers, to establish
the United Nations, etc.
Harry S Truman obtained legislation, PASSED BY THE CONGRESS, to
help to re-build Western Europe, to help to re-build Japan (in the 50s),
to send American troops to S. Korea to save that nation from combined
N. Korean+Russian+Chinese agression, etc.
John F. Kennedy obtained legislation, PASSED BY THE CONGRESS, to
send the first man to the moon, etc.
Lyndon B. Johnson obtained legislation, PASSED BY THE CONGRESS,
to protect the civil rights of African-Americans, etc.
Richard Nixon obtained legislation, PASSED BY THE CONGRESS, to
to ratify the SALT I treaty, to extend the civil rights protections
to women and other minorities, to substantially increase funding
to cancer research, etc.
There are plenty more good things to say. Perhaps, Mr. Beijing,
can give us a list of the good things that the Chiang-Kai-Shek
government did, assuming that there are any good things.
|As free as your continuing the Samurai-crusade on SCC to ``copy''
|Japanese culture traits to us uncivilized Ugly Chinamans.
^^^^^^^^^
Please refrain from using such disgusting racial slurs:
"Chink", "Chinaman", "Jap", etc.
They are really disgusting, and I am aware of many
East-Asian Americans who find such racial slurs to be
disgusting.
P.S.
[to everyone else]
Mr. Beijing has chosen the approach of attacking me with trite
little sayings. He doesn't really attack my reasoning or
my facts from various sources. He just uses trite little sayings
to show how "brilliant" that he fantasizes himself to be.
Bei...@zhongguo.asia.earth
go away from portia.Stanford.EDU, probably due to some machine
failiure. Here I re-send it again, otherwise it's funny for netters
reading only the Mr Tokyo's accusation of my ``attacking'' on him.
(Thanks to Kentaro San for prompt information)
---------------
In article <49...@portia.Stanford.EDU> Too...@Nippon.East.Asia writes:
)
) I never claimed to know *everything* about Japanese culture,
No problem. We didn't assume you really know what Japanese
culture is. But you do have a lot of misunderstanding of
Japan and your arrogance on Japanese culture is annoying.
) Similarly, although most people in the USA have never lived under
) the rule of Soviet Leninism, they have at least read about
) Soviet life or have heard about it on the radio/TV/etc.. Still, they
) can derive some understanding of that lifestyle without having
) lived it.
Give us a big break! Their understanding of Soviet Leninism??
Do you mean such famous understanding as ``Capitalism is the
unequal distribution of wealth, and Communism is the equal
distribution of poverty''? Haha...like your understanding of
Japanese culture is ``lowest crime rate'' and ``non-existence
of drug abuse''?
) Also, our Congressmen don't have to live or to experience every single issue
) in order to decide intelligently about it. It suffices for them,
) the Congressmen, to listen to expert testimony or to READ the thoughts
) of those who are experts on the topic.
I'll leave this for other American netters to rate
and comment their Congresspersons' ``intelligent decisions''. :-)
) Do you understand? Anata wa wakarimasu?
The correct translation of ``Do you understand?'' into
Japnese should be ``Anata wa wakarimasu ka?''. You have
a small grammar mistake here. And my answer is:
Iee, Watashi wa wakarimasen!!!
[for Kentaro Yamamoto: Don't you feel this sounds like the
sentence pattern drills in elementary Japanese classes? :-) ]
) BTW, name calling like "coward" isn't very becoming. Since this is
) still a free country, you are, of course, free to continue your name
) calling.
As free as your continuing the Samurai-crusade on SCC to ``copy''
Japanese culture traits to us uncivilized Ugly Chinamans.
) But you, both of you, should realize that there are many East-Asian Americans
) who attended secondary schools in which some of the nastier kids
) would call them racial slurs like 'Jap', 'Chink', 'Chinaman', etc.
BTW, name calling like ``nastier'' isn't very becoming. Since this is
still a free country, you are, of course, free to continue your name
calling (especially, behind these kids).
And you really need to ``copy'' first the Japanese culture traits to
these ``nastier'' American kids, for instance, non-racial Japanese
slurs such as ``Ba1 Ga3! Ni3 De, Tu3 Ba1 Lu4, Si3 La1 Si La1 Da4 Da4 De!''
:-) :-)
) Regardless of what you think my motives to be, I can assert
) **sincerely** that I truly admire Japan and Japanese culture.
) Though it has some negative aspects, it is, overall, very good.
Admiring including Japanese goods, such as SONY, Nissan, Honda,
JVC, Mazda, Panosonic...? :-) ``Don't buy a Ford, buy a car which
you'll be satisfied Toyotally!''...hehe...
Back to serious discussion. Whatever your motives are and how deeply
you admire Japan, we don't need you here to preach the doctrines of
Japanese culture with your misunderstandings of Japan. As a matter
of fact, this new generation of Chinese youth is much more open-minded
and eager to learn from other cultures than you can ever imagine.
Such a huge numbers of Chinese students going out to various places
in the world, exposed to many different cultures such as Europe,
America, Japan, Australia, will eventually bring a historical
renaissance to their ancient culture. They're seeking a true
understanding of the outer world and will re-build the lost civi-
lization and cultural heritage. There is no reason for them to
just ``copy'' your understandings of Japanese culture. Otherwise,
they have already been obediently ``Japanized'' in 1930s and 1940s.
) _ _
) Nippon wa watakusi wakarimasu ga, zenbu no Nippon ga boku wakarimasen.
Watashi wa wakarimasen!!! Anata wa wakarimasu ka, Samurai sensei???
Shaolin Temple Stick Monks
[Words to Kentaro Yamamoto:
Yes, there is a Chinese translation of ``The Tale of Genji'' in
China. I got one as a gift for my going to college some years
back, from my uncle who is a professor of Japanese. He promised
to buy me a Japanese version when he visits Japan next time, if my
Japanese had been improved to appreciate it directly.
BTW, it's no fun to talk to such a false Samurai; I'll just leave
him and his noise on SCC alone. Can you be my pen-pale in Japanese? ]
David Gast
>In article <10...@Zhongguo.Asia.Earth> Bei...@Zhongguo.Asia.Earth writes:
>Theodore Roosevelt obtained legislation, PASSED BY THE
>CONGRESS, to protect the environment, to fight monopolies,
>to ensure the safety of our foods, etc.
>Woodrow Wilson obtained legislation, PASSED BY THE CONGRESS,
>such as good child-labor laws, etc.
>Franklin D. Roosevelt obtained legislation, PASSED BY THE CONGRESS, ...
>the United Nations, etc.
>Harry S Truman obtained legislation, PASSED BY THE CONGRESS, ...
>John F. Kennedy obtained legislation, PASSED BY THE CONGRESS, ...
>Lyndon B. Johnson obtained legislation, PASSED BY THE CONGRESS, ...
>Richard Nixon obtained legislation, PASSED BY THE CONGRESS, ...
And Ronald Reagan undid everything without obtaining legislation
PASSED BY THE CONGRESS.
David Gast
ga...@cs.ucla.edu
{uunet,ucbvax,rutgers}!{ucla-cs,cs.ucla.edu}!gast
P.S. >Richard Nixon obtained legislation, PASSED BY THE CONGRESS, ...
>to extend the civil rights protections to women and other minorities,
What legislation are you talking about?
Sung-Zoon Cho
>help to re-build Western Europe, to help to re-build Japan (in the 50s),
>to send American troops to S. Korea to save that nation from combined
>N. Korean+Russian+Chinese agression, etc.
>
The US government sent troops to Korea in 1950 and yes SAVED S. Korea
from the N. Korean attack, not because of Korean people but because of
the strategic US INTERESTS in the region. The containment of the USSR,
the most important objective of the US foreign and military policies
since the WWII.
Mr. Tookyoo metioned it as one of the "good" things the US government did
in the 20th century.
The word "good" doesn't sound fit in this case. You don't say
"Mr. Smith is a good guy because he does a lot of good things for him." :-)
Regards,
-sungzoon cho
tim...@ernie.berkeley.edu
Perhaps we should say that it was good, but that it was a side effect of
the USA government's action, not the primary motive for such action.
Tsukuba@nippon
|...
|And Ronald Reagan undid everything without obtaining legislation
|PASSED BY THE CONGRESS.
Don't you think that you are being a bit unfair?
Reagan did obtain passage of the INF treaty.
|...
|P.S. |Richard Nixon obtained legislation, PASSED BY THE CONGRESS, ...
||to extend the civil rights protections to women and other minorities,
|
|What legislation are you talking about?
I believe that Mr. Tokyo was referring to the "Civil Rights Act
of [some roman numeral]" (CRA). The initial CRA was passed
in the 60s and protected African-Americans from
discrimination. In the early 70s, the CRA was extended
to protect Hispanics, Asian-Americans, and women.
Pete DiMarco and his pal Michiko
I've got a couple suggestions:
1) Use your real account names and mail addresses.
2) Move it to alt.flame
- PDM
ARPA: ma...@sbcs.sunysb.edu | "Hey man, my school is insane... | "YURI!!!!"
UUCP: philabs!sbcs!marco | Hey man, my work's down the drain" | - Kei
DISCLAIMER: The above is | - Bowie, "Suffragette City" | "KEI!!!!!"
official Stony Brook policy. | Go Go Michiko! | Let's Go Tech! | - Yuri