七不講和反對中國憲政論

[BYS]

似乎大陸在香港的四大護法之一的許崇德，都反對今日官媒言論。

http://www.rnw.nl/chinese/article/891330

發表于 : 24 May 2013 - 3:17pm | By 荷蘭在線 編輯部 (圖:Malcolm Browne)
中國官媒《紅旗文稿》和《環球時報》5月21日和22日發表的兩篇有關憲政的文章，
几日來在學術界和互聯网上引發了大規模的爭論，有關憲政“姓資姓社”之爭日趨
白熱化。

知名學者張千帆在接受荷蘭在線記者采訪時表示，“憲政屬資論”系官方御用文人
和無良媒体在策划“造反”，挑戰民間正在形成的憲政民主共識。中國當前的最大
危險是缺乏体制共識，憲政改革的希望不在官方在民間。

“我們信仰的主義是宇宙的真理”
5月21日，中國人民大學教授楊曉青在党媒《紅旗文稿》上發表《憲政与人民民主制
度之比較研究》一文，稱“憲政不符合中國國情”、“憲政的制度元素和理念并不
适合社會主義國家”、“人民民主制度絕不可以稱為‘社會主義憲政’”、“中國
沒有必要為資產階級的‘憲政事業’做貢獻”等。

僅一日后的5月22日，人民日報社下屬的《環球時報》刊登名為《憲政是兜圈子否定
中國發展之路》。該文指出，這兩年憲政概念突然走進輿論場，是中國主流政治發
展之外的一個枝杈，它是從西方的話語体系出發，用新說法提出中國接受西方政治
制度的老要求。憲政主張在深層上是与中國現行憲法對立，誤導了部分知識分子，
在互聯网上引來一些追隨者，但它對中國社會的真實影響不大。

無獨有偶，中央軍委机關報《解放軍報》同日也發表了該報總編輯孫臨平《我們信
仰的主義乃是宇宙的真理》的文章。孫臨平指出，共產党人要始終同心堅守中國特
色社會主義信仰，篤信我們信仰的主義，乃是宇宙的真理。在党的引領下，我們靠
中國精神戰胜過千難万險，今天，也一定能靠中國精神成功應對各种風險和挑戰，
最終實現中國夢。

“官方御用文人策划‘造反’”
上述三篇文章一經發布，立即在互聯网上引發了大規模的爭論，在學術界大批知名
人士集体批判的同時，网友也紛紛吐槽，各种以“宇宙真理”為題的惡搞段子在微
博、論壇等平台瘋轉，“宇宙的真理”一詞甚至一度挺入新浪微博的時事熱搜榜。


中國憲法學會副會長、北京大學教授張千帆在接受本网采訪時表示，上述几篇文章
是當局雇用了几個御用文人為“七不講”做鋪墊，是公然對民間憲政共識的挑戰，
更是對習近平2012年12月4日在紀念憲法頒布30周年大會講話的否定。“半年不到，
就有人跳出來大張旗鼓攻擊憲政，分明是有人在策動‘造反’”，張千帆對記者說。


張千帆指出，憲政簡言之就是實施憲法，憲法獲得了實施，憲法規定都得到了落實，
憲政就實現了。習近平總書記在12月4日大會上曾說“憲法的生命在于實施”，這就
是憲政。而近日某些御用文人和無良媒体打著“學者”的旗號，操著“文革”的腔
調，攻擊“憲政屬于資本主義”，是“兜圈子否定發展之路”，這些人呼吸著濃重
的PM2.5，喝著遭到污染的水，吃著含有農藥毒素的食品，卻在昧著良心地粉飾中國
式“發展”，只能說明其道德人格已徹底變异。

張千帆還表示，中國當前的最大危險是缺乏体制共識，左派和右派之間打得不可開
交，意識形態嚴重分裂，几乎可以說是“不共戴天”，這种共識不是一般意義上的
价值立場，而是關于基本游戲規則的底線共識，尤其是關于這個國家的基本体制的
共識。中國應該借鑒西方的憲政民主构建政府，而不是拒斥憲政文明。“中國今后
至少需要達成党內民主化、選舉規范化、言論自由、經濟市場化、司法職業化和憲
法實用化六點共識，只有形成這樣的体制共識，中國社會才能避免大動亂的危險。”


在左右派“不共戴天”的當前，如何達成這种共識呢？對此，張千帆把希望寄托在
民間，而非官方。他指出，改革的生命、希望和動力在民間，通過自由言論或全面
討論達成共識當然最好，但是官方和左派從來不是這么做事，他們總是喜歡抱政府
大腿，中國右派也有這种傾向，官方的路基本上死了，如果沒有民間触動，官方憲
政是不會啟動的。但中國民間現在這种狀況是万万不行的，沒有基本共識的改革肯
定是要失敗的。在中國，有三支推動改革的主要力量，律師、學者和媒体，三支力
量能夠聯合起來，對一些基本問題促成強大的社會共識，中國才有希望。“現在官
方用左派御用學者挑戰民間憲政共識，這种做法當然很拙劣，這种冒天下之大不韙
的現象和人民沒有太大關系，而是說明官民裂痕越來越大。官方宣傳部門的思維越
來越不靠譜，還以為他們想做什么就做什么，卻激發了民間的熱烈反彈，當然這也
不失為另一种共識對話。”張千帆最后對荷蘭在線記者說。

“极左勢力是執政党最致命風險”
除張千帆外，許崇德、徐昕等大批知名學者也紛紛通過微博、博客等平台反駁楊曉
青等人的論調。

与楊曉青同屬人大的憲政与行政法治研究中心主辦的“中國憲政网”21日連續發表
許崇德和李林兩篇文章，被网友稱之為是對楊曉青言論的回應。有“憲法泰斗”之
稱的許崇德在《憲法是法治國家應有之義》中指出，（有人）以极其革命的面目出
現、打著反“西化”的旗幟的极左思潮，先悄然殲滅憲政這個提法，以便架空憲法，
使憲法邊緣化。這种故意撇開社會主義憲法，片面地把“憲政”定義為資本主義，
然后編造出“憲政”提法會招致西化的神話，誤導典論，欺蒙領導，其意欲揮舞大
棒重啟反右派運動的作派很不合時宜。

華東政法大學教授馬長山則在微博中表示，反憲政逆流除了政治邏輯，就是“文革”
口號；他們自命“匡時濟世”，實乃禍國殃民。如果說執政党當下面臨著很多風險
和考驗的話，那么基于壟斷利益集團的极左勢力，就是最致命的風險，他們高舉
“革命本色“的大旗，一步步把中國推入重蹈蘇聯覆轍的深淵。只有力行憲政与法
治，才能贏得民心。

中國人民大學張志銘教授指出，我們已經有了憲法，豈可沒有憲政！對于憲政概念
的理解，對于憲政之于當今中國的具体含義，可以有不同的認識，需要探討澄清，
但是憲政猶如人權、法治、民主、科學等等，皆屬當今人類的共同話語和實踐，今
日中國絕不可、也無可能棄之如敝屣，請當局者明鑒！

杭州師范大學教授范忠信同樣通過微博對楊曉青等文章提出批評，他指出，憲政是
什么？就是憲法兌現的政治，就是憲法至上的政治，就是限制政府權力的政治，就
是任何組織和個人受憲法約束的政治，就是人民權利不受任何法外限制的政治！一
句話，憲政就是民主政治，就是現代文明政治！反對憲政，實質上就是恢复封建君
主專制体制！

徐昕對此表示，環球時報社評及胡錫進，稱憲政最終是要削弱否定中國既定的發展
道路，在深層上是与中國現行憲法對立的，邏輯錯亂，是其一貫手法。憲政，簡言
之，即落實憲法，保障公民自由，把權力關進制度的籠子里，正如習總反复強調的
那樣。

网友精彩點評：中國刮起“朝鮮風”
网友“木子老龍”：楊曉青教授的雄文刊發后，《陰曹日報》迅速予以轉載。慈禧
太后讀完文章，撫報大哭：“哀家早就說過，憲政不适合中國道路，偏你們不听，
要革命、要起義、要民主、要立憲，熱熱鬧鬧折騰了一百多年，死了几千万，如今
你們明白了，哀家說話是有道理的。這楊曉青是誰？知己啊，快過來陪哀家。”

网友“北京崔衛平”：說個實話吧。一听見“宇宙的真理”，就覺得歡樂得不行，
笑得彎下了腰。因為有人知道自己在地球上已經找不到同道了。

网友“童大煥”：憲政其實對中國各個階層都有利，而且也已是當下中國的當務之
急。它像清洁的水和清新的空气一樣，是几乎每一個中國人的必須。威權春夢何時
了？往事知多少。小樓昨夜“環球”風，故國不堪回首霧霾中。雕欄玉砌應猶在，
只是海蜃罷？問君能有几多愁？恰似一江春水指縫流。

网友“海天純藍”: 憲政姓資而不姓社，這些人說的理由可能自己都不認可。所謂
道路自信，制度自信，政治自信乃真不自信。君何時听到老美稱其自信過啥，自信
其實自己意淫而已。

网友“海倫民”：似乎又來到清末那個關口：維新還是守舊，立憲還是保皇，改良
還是革命，沖突已白熱化，必須做出選擇。

网友“荒堂省三”：楊曉青通篇文革語言令人油然想起“和尚打傘無法無天”造反
有理十年浩劫。劉少奇手持《憲法》衰嘆，沒有憲法，連國家主席的人身權利都得
不到保障。這是老一輩含胡耀邦鄧小平習仲勳等的吶喊，所以才有那一輪民主法治
啟蒙。不過三十年光景，就被忘得如此干淨嗎。

网友“溫文爾雅哥”: 我怀疑朝鮮崔大使是來我國傳授他們主体思想的學習心得的
……從他落地那天開始，我國陸續就有了“宇宙的真理”和“無德無信美國人”…
…簡直就是刮起了一陣子朝鮮風！

网友“石訥shine”：在憲政已經是一种教養的現代，憲政就轉化為美學符號。它是
一种优雅，一种平易的高貴，它將粗鄙和愚陋區別出來。在憲政話題下，你找到朋
友，即使不謀面，也親切如鄰家的兄弟。憲政是一根絲，連起無數的心，是一張网，
織就善意与安全。我們恍然惊悟，先賢青燈，壯士喋血，何哉？她就是千年万年的
中國夢。

[haha]

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[Albert K. Fung]

BYS:

> 似乎大陸在香港的四大護法之一的許崇德，都反對今日官媒言論。
>
> http://www.rnw.nl/chinese/article/891330

Hard to imagine ....

That a post modern version of Han Dynasty's 鹽鐵論, will end
differently for the Celestial Empire. It is important to un
-derstand that constitutionalism is a western concept.

It is not in China's cultural DNA ....

Regards,

Albert K. Fung
Rancho del Canto, Paso Robles, California, USA.

[BYS]

On 5/25/2013 12:13 AM, Albert K. Fung wrote:
> BYS:
>
>> 似乎大陸在香港的四大護法之一的許崇德，都反對今日官媒言論。
>>
>> http://www.rnw.nl/chinese/article/891330
>
> Hard to imagine ....
>
> That a post modern version of Han Dynasty's 鹽鐵論, will end
> differently for the Celestial Empire. It is important to un
> -derstand that constitutionalism is a western concept.
>
> It is not in China's cultural DNA ....

基因不基因，在1848年歐洲革命之春前，絕大部份歐洲都沒有憲政，有的只有
絕對皇權。不夠一年，革命拿得的短暫憲政，完全被推翻。可能認識這段西方
文化最重要的歷史也不在馮詩人的基因。以致常常胡言亂語。

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutions_of_1848

[Albert K. Fung]

BYS:

> 似乎大陸在香港的四大護法之一的許崇德，都反對今日官媒言論。
>
> http://www.rnw.nl/chinese/article/891330

AKF:

> Hard to imagine ....
>
> That a post modern version of Han Dynasty's 鹽鐵論, will end
> differently for the Celestial Empire. It is important to un
> -derstand that constitutionalism is a western concept.
>
> It is not in China's cultural DNA ....

BYS:

> 基因不基因，在1848年歐洲革命之春前，絕大部份歐洲都沒有憲政，有的只有
> 絕對皇權。不夠一年，革命拿得的短暫憲政，完全被推翻。可能認識這段西方
> 文化最重要的歷史也不在馮詩人的基因。以致常常胡言亂語。
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutions_of_1848

The jaw-dropping ignorance ....

Of the esteemed netter on the European political history and
their religion centered cultures is understandable, albeit a
bit inexcusable. Nevertheless, not long after the French Re-
volution, the Chinese educated elites did start their own.

It was based on Christian edicts and tenets. And it failed.

Their foreign values, were completely incongruous to China's
cultural DNA. In any case, the esteemed netter seems bliss-
fully unaware, that it is now the 21st century. He/she does
not appear shock that Chinese elites are still debating that
long settled issue in the western for hundreds of years:

Constitutionalism ....

[ltl...@hotmail.com]

Albert K. Fung wrote:
> BYS:
>
> > 似乎大陸在香港的四大護法之一的許崇德，都反對今日官媒言論。
> >
> > http://www.rnw.nl/chinese/article/891330
>
> AKF:
>
> > Hard to imagine ....
> >
> > That a post modern version of Han Dynasty's 鹽鐵論, will end
> > differently for the Celestial Empire. It is important to un
> > -derstand that constitutionalism is a western concept.
> >
> > It is not in China's cultural DNA ....

Actually I agree with you concerning Constitutionalism and Chinese
cultural DNA. I bet most Hong Konger would oppose Constitutionalism
if they know what it is all about.

>
> BYS:
>
> > 基因不基因，在1848年歐洲革命之春前，絕大部份歐洲都沒有憲政，有的只有
> > 絕對皇權。不夠一年，革命拿得的短暫憲政，完全被推翻。可能認識這段西方
> > 文化最重要的歷史也不在馮詩人的基因。以致常常胡言亂語。
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutions_of_1848
>
> The jaw-dropping ignorance ....
>
> Of the esteemed netter on the European political history and
> their religion centered cultures is understandable, albeit a
> bit inexcusable. Nevertheless, not long after the French Re-
> volution, the Chinese educated elites did start their own.
>
> It was based on Christian edicts and tenets. And it failed.
>
> Their foreign values, were completely incongruous to China's
> cultural DNA. In any case, the esteemed netter seems bliss-
> fully unaware, that it is now the 21st century. He/she does
> not appear shock that Chinese elites are still debating that
> long settled issue in the western for hundreds of years:
>
> Constitutionalism ....

Settled issue. You are just dreaming.
In short, John Locke imagined man in nature and man in society
following some kind of natural law is the same man. Read Locke's
Second Treatie see whether you can find man in nature is trans-
formed into man in society. According to Hobbes, man in nature
exists in a state of war in which they fight against each other all
the
time.

If one looks at the better people of a society, he would certainly
subscribe John Locke's view and accept Constitutionalism which
limits the government's power. If one looks at the part of the
society
which caused most the society's problems he is likely to give the
government unlimited power to deal with them. Why? According to
Applying Pareto's principle or the 20-80 rule to crimes, 20% of the
population cause 80% of the crimes and some of them could be
very powerful. Hence it makes sense to give the government more
power.

China has a large population. It also means China has a lot more
bad guys. Its natural tendency to grant the government more power
not less.

Again, the issue is not settled. If one looks at America, it is more
and
more like China. Population growth and globalization expose more
Americans to more and more powerful bad guys. They hence grant
the government with more power in response to new threats.

[ltl...@hotmail.com]

[Axis of Evil]

Dickless ignorance .....

I cannot slap the face of BYS this time and instead......
Obviously the esteemed netter who desprises his grandfather's DNA so much does
not know that ��i�ݳX�� composd in 16th century was the first in human history
to bring out the idea of Constitutionalism which was 100 years earlier than
Rousseau's "Du Contrat Social".

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/��i�ݳX��

[Albert K. Fung]

BYS:

> 似乎大陸在香港的四大護法之一的許崇德，都反對今日官媒言論。
>
> http://www.rnw.nl/chinese/article/891330

AKF:

> Hard to imagine ....
>
> That a post modern version of Han Dynasty's 鹽鐵論, will end
> differently for the Celestial Empire. It is important to un
> -derstand that constitutionalism is a western concept.
>
> It is not in China's cultural DNA ....

BYS:

> 基因不基因，在1848年歐洲革命之春前，絕大部份歐洲都沒有憲政，有的只有
> 絕對皇權。不夠一年，革命拿得的短暫憲政，完全被推翻。可能認識這段西方
> 文化最重要的歷史也不在馮詩人的基因。以致常常胡言亂語。
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutions_of_1848

AKF:

> The jaw-dropping ignorance ....
>
> Of the esteemed netter on the European political history and
> their religion centered cultures is understandable, albeit a
> bit inexcusable. Nevertheless, not long after the French Re-
> volution, the Chinese educated elites did start their own.
>
> It was based on Christian edicts and tenets. And it failed.
>
> Their foreign values, were completely incongruous to China's
> cultural DNA. In any case, the esteemed netter seems bliss-
> fully unaware, that it is now the 21st century. He/she does
> not appear shock that Chinese elites are still debating that
> long settled issue in the western for hundreds of years:
>
> Constitutionalism ....

Axis of Evil:

> Dickless ignorance .....
>
> I cannot slap the face of BYS this time and instead......
> Obviously the esteemed netter who desprises his grandfather's DNA so much does
> not know that ��i�ݳX�� composd in 16th century was the first in human history
> to bring out the idea of Constitutionalism which was 100 years earlier than
> Rousseau's "Du Contrat Social".
>
> http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/��i�ݳX��

An excellent opportunity ....

Is it not, then for China to provide leadership and push the
world into Constitutionalism? Does the cultural DNA of China
allow that to happen, one cannot help but wonders?

Is that not the appropriate question then? .... :)

[Tak To]

On 5/25/2013 9:03 PM, Albert K. Fung wrote:
> BYS:
>
>> 似乎大陸在香港的四大護法之一的許崇德，都反對今日官媒言論。
>>
>> http://www.rnw.nl/chinese/article/891330
>
> AKF:
>
>> Hard to imagine ....
>>
>> That a post modern version of Han Dynasty's 鹽鐵論, will end
>> differently for the Celestial Empire. It is important to un
>> -derstand that constitutionalism is a western concept.
>>
>> It is not in China's cultural DNA ....
>
> BYS:
>
>> 基因不基因，在1848年歐洲革命之春前，絕大部份歐洲都沒有憲政，有的只有
>> 絕對皇權。不夠一年，革命拿得的短暫憲政，完全被推翻。可能認識這段西方
>> 文化最重要的歷史也不在馮詩人的基因。以致常常胡言亂語。
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutions_of_1848
>
> The jaw-dropping ignorance ....
>
> Of the esteemed netter on the European political history and
> their religion centered cultures is understandable, albeit a
> bit inexcusable. Nevertheless, not long after the French Re-
> volution, the Chinese educated elites did start their own.

馮詩人斥星君對歐洲史無知，但又不提出具體證據，反而扯到中國
歷史，真是莫名其妙。

> It was based on Christian edicts and tenets. And it failed.

呵呵，太平天國的什麼基於基督教的 edicts and tenets 呢？
貴族制度？軍隊制度？法律制度？官員制度？財政制度？

> Their foreign values, were completely incongruous to China's
> cultural DNA. In any case, the esteemed netter seems bliss-
> fully unaware, that it is now the 21st century. He/she does
> not appear shock that Chinese elites are still debating that
> long settled issue in the western for hundreds of years:
>
> Constitutionalism ....

--
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ta...@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr

[Albert K. Fung]

BYS:

> 似乎大陸在香港的四大護法之一的許崇德，都反對今日官媒言論。
>
> http://www.rnw.nl/chinese/article/891330

AKF:

> Hard to imagine ....
>
> That a post modern version of Han Dynasty's 鹽鐵論, will end
> differently for the Celestial Empire. It is important to un
> -derstand that constitutionalism is a western concept.
>
> It is not in China's cultural DNA ....

BYS:

> 基因不基因，在1848年歐洲革命之春前，絕大部份歐洲都沒有憲政，有的只有
> 絕對皇權。不夠一年，革命拿得的短暫憲政，完全被推翻。可能認識這段西方
> 文化最重要的歷史也不在馮詩人的基因。以致常常胡言亂語。
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutions_of_1848

AKF:

> The jaw-dropping ignorance ....
>
> Of the esteemed netter on the European political history and
> their religion centered cultures is understandable, albeit a
> bit inexcusable. Nevertheless, not long after the French Re-
> volution, the Chinese educated elites did start their own.
>

> It was based on Christian edicts and tenets. And it failed.
>

> Their foreign values, were completely incongruous to China's
> cultural DNA. In any case, the esteemed netter seems bliss-
> fully unaware, that it is now the 21st century. He/she does
> not appear shock that Chinese elites are still debating that
> long settled issue in the western for hundreds of years:
>
> Constitutionalism ....

Tak To:

> 呵呵，太平天國的什麼基於基督教的 edicts and tenets 呢？
> 貴族制度？軍隊制度？法律制度？官員制度？財政制度？

From 金田起義, to 永安建制 ....

The Taiping Movement, was Lingnaners' comprehensive military
measures, broad policy agendas, and deep ideological appeals
to redress the injustices suffered by their conquered civil-
ization and culture imposed by China's 華夏文明. It is utter-
ly regrettable, that the esteemed netter has no knowledge of
any kind on such a brilliant, comprehensive movement at all.

While inexcusable, it is entirely understandable ....

[ltl...@hotmail.com]

> >http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/i ݳX

>
> An excellent opportunity ....
>
> Is it not, then for China to provide leadership and push the
> world into Constitutionalism? Does the cultural DNA of China
> allow that to happen, one cannot help but wonders?
>
> Is that not the appropriate question then? .... :)

By cultural DNA I guess you mean a practice accepted or rejected
by the forefathers would also be accepted or rejected by the son if
the they had the set same set of fact under similar cultural
condition.

What have changed about China? Demographically and culturally
speaking.

More important, there is no evidence that constitutionalism per se
would make a the government better government and/or a country
a better country. On the other hand, it is obvious that Western
powers
which practice Constitutionalism have inflicted a lot of pain and
suffering
on the rest of the world. For example, the UK had shipped they
convicted criminals and other undesirables to Australia.

If China can send all its trouble makers to a "new Australia" where
they could steal, plunder, kill, and rape as much as they can, if
China
can send all those who want to push narcotics and get rich quick to
a "new China,", and if China can send all those who cannot get along
with other people to a "new America" to seek their freedom, I would
have more enthusiasm Constitutionalism.

[Axis of Evil]

"Albert K. Fung" <akw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>

Should there not be the Manchurian occupation which took back the whole China
300 years backward, why is it not possible? The only difference that has
something to do with DNA is that, should it be the Chinese who pushed the
world into Constitutionalism and shaped the modern world, they would not have
exploited and enslaved other nations to build up their self "Constitutionalism"
,
and the modern world would be in a much better shape.

[ltl...@hotmail.com]

On May 27, 12:01 am, Axis of Evil <6...@666.666> wrote:

> >>http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/i ݳX

>
> >An excellent opportunity ....
>
> >Is it not, then for China to provide leadership and push the
> >world into Constitutionalism? Does the cultural DNA of China
> >allow that to happen, one cannot help but wonders?
>
> >Is that not the appropriate question then? .... :)
>
> Should there not be the Manchurian occupation which took back the whole China
> 300 years backward, why is it not possible? The only difference that has
> something to do with  DNA is that, should it be the Chinese who pushed the
> world into Constitutionalism and shaped the modern world, they would not have
> exploited and enslaved other nations to build up their self "Constitutionalism"
> ,
> and the modern world would be in a much better shape.

Alan T Wood has argued in his book, LIMITS TO AUTOCRACY: From Sung
Neo-
Confucianism to a Doctrine of Political Rights, that Sung neo-
confucianist intendted
to limit the power of the emperor.

[Albert K. Fung]

AKF:

> An excellent opportunity ....
>
> Is it not, then for China to provide leadership and push the
> world into Constitutionalism? Does the cultural DNA of China
> allow that to happen, one cannot help but wonders?
>
> Is that not the appropriate question then? .... :)

Axis of Evil:

> Should there not be the Manchurian occupation which took back the whole China
> 300 years backward, why is it not possible? The only difference that has
> something to do with DNA is that, should it be the Chinese who pushed the
> world into Constitutionalism and shaped the modern world, they would not have
> exploited and enslaved other nations to build up their self "Constitutionalism"
> ,
> and the modern world would be in a much better shape.

Very prominent genes ....

In China's cultural DNA as depicted in the famed magnum opus
of China's modern writer who abandoned his medical career in
Japan to be a physician of China's sick minds:

魯迅's 《阿Q正傳》 .... :)

[Tak To]

On 5/26/2013 3:30 PM, Albert K. Fung wrote:
> BYS:
>
>> 似乎大陸在香港的四大護法之一的許崇德，都反對今日官媒言論。
>>
>> http://www.rnw.nl/chinese/article/891330
>
> AKF:
>
>> Hard to imagine ....
>>
>> That a post modern version of Han Dynasty's 鹽鐵論, will end
>> differently for the Celestial Empire. It is important to un
>> -derstand that constitutionalism is a western concept.
>>
>> It is not in China's cultural DNA ....
>
> BYS:
>
>> 基因不基因，在1848年歐洲革命之春前，絕大部份歐洲都沒有憲政，有的只有
>> 絕對皇權。不夠一年，革命拿得的短暫憲政，完全被推翻。可能認識這段西方
>> 文化最重要的歷史也不在馮詩人的基因。以致常常胡言亂語。
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutions_of_1848
>
> AKF:
>
>> The jaw-dropping ignorance ....
>>
>> Of the esteemed netter on the European political history and
>> their religion centered cultures is understandable, albeit a
>> bit inexcusable. Nevertheless, not long after the French Re-
>> volution, the Chinese educated elites did start their own.

我的帖文明明有下面這一段

馮詩人斥星君對歐洲史無知，但又不提出具體證據，反而扯到中國
歷史，真是莫名其妙。

馮詩人將之刪去，似乎「斷章取義、視而不見」的老毛病又發作了。

>>
>> It was based on Christian edicts and tenets. And it failed.
>>
>> Their foreign values, were completely incongruous to China's
>> cultural DNA. In any case, the esteemed netter seems bliss-
>> fully unaware, that it is now the 21st century. He/she does
>> not appear shock that Chinese elites are still debating that
>> long settled issue in the western for hundreds of years:
>>
>> Constitutionalism ....
>
> Tak To:
>
>> 呵呵，太平天國的什麼基於基督教的 edicts and tenets 呢？
>> 貴族制度？軍隊制度？法律制度？官員制度？財政制度？
>
> From 金田起義, to 永安建制 ....
>
> The Taiping Movement, was Lingnaners' comprehensive military
> measures, broad policy agendas, and deep ideological appeals
> to redress the injustices suffered by their conquered civil-
> ization and culture imposed by China's 華夏文明. It is utter-
> ly regrettable, that the esteemed netter has no knowledge of
> any kind on such a brilliant, comprehensive movement at all.
>
> While inexcusable, it is entirely understandable ....

馮詩人不中文能力差，就是思想缺乏邏輯。上次星君明明是在說歐洲史，
馮詩人就扯中史。這次我問他「什麼制度是基於基督教的教義的」，他就
答「在永安建立了制度」。

發具爭議性的帖文，但又答非所問，正是馮詩人 trolling 的一貫伎
倆。

Tak

[Tak To]

Yes, of all the dynasties in Chinese history,
Song has the most similarities to a modern
day constitutional monarchy. However, it is
a far cry to say that constitutionalism could
have happened in Song.

In general, questions like "why X did not
happen?" should be always be pursued with
the reminder that any event is the sum of
a million coincidental conditions, and that
any conclusion is purely hypothetical.

As for the current subject matter, it is
important to note that Medieval European kings
had very limited power to begin with. These
kings cannot raise large armies by themselves,
and had to rely on his noblemen (and their
coffers) for military support. This fractured
structure of power (with the background fact
that looting and ransom was a major source of
wealth for Medieval kings) was necessary for
Magna Carta to happen.

The conditions in Song, or Ming, ware very
different, to say the very least.

In comparison, the roles of religion, political
philosophy, etc, IMHO, were of far much less
importance.

[Albert K. Fung]

BYS:

> 似乎大陸在香港的四大護法之一的許崇德，都反對今日官媒言論。
>
> http://www.rnw.nl/chinese/article/891330

AKF:

> Hard to imagine ....
>
> That a post modern version of Han Dynasty's 鹽鐵論, will end
> differently for the Celestial Empire. It is important to un
> -derstand that constitutionalism is a western concept.
>
> It is not in China's cultural DNA ....

BYS:

> 基因不基因，在1848年歐洲革命之春前，絕大部份歐洲都沒有憲政，有的只有
> 絕對皇權。不夠一年，革命拿得的短暫憲政，完全被推翻。可能認識這段西方
> 文化最重要的歷史也不在馮詩人的基因。以致常常胡言亂語。
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutions_of_1848

AKF:

> The jaw-dropping ignorance ....
>
> Of the esteemed netter on the European political history and
> their religion centered cultures is understandable, albeit a
> bit inexcusable. Nevertheless, not long after the French Re-
> volution, the Chinese educated elites did start their own.
>

> It was based on Christian edicts and tenets. And it failed.
>
> Their foreign values, were completely incongruous to China's
> cultural DNA. In any case, the esteemed netter seems bliss-
> fully unaware, that it is now the 21st century. He/she does
> not appear shock that Chinese elites are still debating that
> long settled issue in the western for hundreds of years:
>
> Constitutionalism ....

Tak To:

> 呵呵，太平天國的什麼基於基督教的 edicts and tenets 呢？
> 貴族制度？軍隊制度？法律制度？官員制度？財政制度？

AKF:

> From 金田起義, to 永安建制 ....
>
> The Taiping Movement, was Lingnaners' comprehensive military
> measures, broad policy agendas, and deep ideological appeals
> to redress the injustices suffered by their conquered civil-
> ization and culture imposed by China's 華夏文明. It is utter-
> ly regrettable, that the esteemed netter has no knowledge of
> any kind on such a brilliant, comprehensive movement at all.
>
> While inexcusable, it is entirely understandable ....

Tak To:

> 馮詩人不中文能力差，就是思想缺乏邏輯。上次星君明明是在說歐洲史，
> 馮詩人就扯中史。這次我問他「什麼制度是基於基督教的教義的」，他就
> 答「在永安建立了制度」。

Not at all a tutorial service ....

The Internet is free to all, good or bad, considerate or in-
tolerant, knowledgeable or ignorant. It is rather clear that
netter BYS has near zero knowledge of the histories and cult
-ures of both the west and China.

This humble netter harbors not any illusion to change that.

永安建制, was a very comprehensive reform at all levels. And
was based largely on the values, and theology, of the early
Chinese Christians fighting for justice for the Lingnaners.
Which cannot be clearer and more obvious to all Lingnaners.

Also, many notables and commoners of the west, participated
in its promulgation and implementation. It's understandable
that the esteemed netter is rather ignorant of the history,
and culture, of China.

Which is quite inexcusable ....

[AntiVirAlFungus]

On May 27, 12:49 pm, "Albert K. Fung" <akwf...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Not at all a tutorial service ....

(remainder of pompous pansy homo troll-post trash snipped)

Pathetic two-bit-dumb-fuck pansy-troll Fungus .......

BULL!! All you can do is lick the asses of White Americans. You are a
prime example of a "house nigger" !

Up yours, you pansy old senile two-bit faggot dumb fuck! You don't
even know the superstorm was called Sandy, and referred to it as
"Sally" ! Still smelling jasmine from your asshole? You are nothing
but a LIAR and a FRAUD, and NOTHING you write bears any semblance to
the truth, treating public Usenet groups like your useless amateur
literature club. Where is the jasmine revolution which you have been
predicting for China since February last year that would topple the
Chinese government? Go stuff your ginormous asshole with all the
jasmine you've collected, and plug it with your Tesla handbag.

Pansy homo troll Bertie Fungus referred to superstorm Sandy as
"Sally" !

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/108af9dec72d0429?hl=en

Hey, Dumb Fuck! Your English is so bad, that you don't even know the
difference between Sandy and Sally ! You are NOTHING but a pathetic
pompous ugly old fart begging for attention in cyber space.

Still imagining that your room in the loony bin is Rancho del Canto
one week and and Oscar-By-The-Sea another ?

Bwahahahahaha ! How pathetic !

[Tak To]

呵呵，馮詩人自己解釋不了太平天國的制度是怎樣基於基督教教義
的，就只好罵人無知了來脫身了。

還有，馮詩人引別人網帖時，往往把自己不喜歡的部分刪去，我前文
（MsgId = <knvv6j$ugd$1...@dont-email.me>） 有批評他改
引文的習慣

] 我的帖文明明有下面這一段

]
] 馮詩人斥星君對歐洲史無知，但又不提出具體證據，反而扯到中國
] 歷史，真是莫名其妙。
]
] 馮詩人將之刪去，似乎「斷章取義、視而不見」的老毛病又發作了。

不過馮詩人照刪如儀。

[Axis of Evil]

"Albert K. Fung" <akw...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Every culture has her own uglyiness.
At least there was someone who admitted and faced the uglyiness of his own
people.
Quote someonme similar from the great USA.
(perhaps you may argue that genociding red indians or enslaving negros are not
uglyiness but beauty)

[haha]

於 28/5/2013 5:25, Tak To 提到:

容我插一句咀。
就算中國人真有某種「文化基因」又如何？真正的基因，雖會遺傳，但亦可演化，
生物不會永世是同一様子。
比起真正的基因，「文化基因」要演化更容易，變化可以更快。

[Albert K. Fung]

haha:

> 容我插一句咀。
> 就算中國人真有某種「文化基因」又如何？真正的基因，雖會遺傳，但亦可演化，
> 生物不會永世是同一様子。
> 比起真正的基因，「文化基因」要演化更容易，變化可以更快。

Not quite ....

The esteemed netter should examine his knowledge in life sci
-ence a bit carefully. And one must understand most cultures
do not mate. HK did, and it changed. After the handover:

HK acquired extremely dominant genes and is changing again.

Evolution takes a very long time. That is the principal re-
ason why species, and cultures, go extinct. China's genetic
makeup took a very long time. And they propelled it into be
-ing a superpower many times over. So it will always impose
that proverbial:

"with Chinese characteristics" ....

[AntiVirAlFungus]

On 6月4日, 下午7时44分, "Albert K. Fung" <akwf...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Jeremy Bentham was not the first one to propose utilitarian-
> ism.

[TheInquirer]

On 5/06/2013 12:32 PM, AntiVirAlFungus wrote:
> On 6月4日, 下午7时44分, "Albert K. Fung"<akwf...@hotmail.com> wrote:

anti-fungus: why are you so late today?


--
I ask, because I'm curious.

"A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool
can learn from a wise answer." -- Bruce Lee

[new 10101011000111010 copying 1011010100]

all nations in Europe are all HYBRID nations






in FRANCE , Clovis who spoke Dutch ,
invaded North FRANCE
and turned the Paris Region into Ile de France .
Clovis did not control south France
so
there was NO CENTRAL POWER control from Lutetia
( Paris )
for all EAST FRANCE ,( German Borgondes Burgundians ) and
South France ( Goth ).

in Britain , North was the Alba nation which did not
control the
Caledonia nation in the west of Scotland .

South Britain was still divided between DaneLaws and
Saxons
in the south caost .


Germans did not unite into one Group as an Identity until
400 years after Clovis , when CharleMagne enforce tax
payment
on all Germans in the East .


so the smaller sub - kings of each Euro nation
had their own regional Power
which led to a limit on HOW MUCH POWER
the CENTRAL Authority of each nation ,
like
FRANCE , Britain , and Germany ,
can exert on their boundaries which were regional small
kingdoms .


Chinese has always had a CENTRAL POWER CONTROL
in the form of an emperor in ancient time after Qing
Empire .

[new 10101011000111010 copying 1011010100]

typing mistake



Chinese has always had a CENTRAL POWER CONTROL after
the Chin Empire 200 BC


not Qing Empire was Manchu AD 1664





On Jun 5, 11:18 pm, new 10101011000111010 copying 1011010100

[the E V I L Prophet Muhammud fucked teenage gril 's cunt , was a DIRTY Human Scum]

On May 28, 12:08 am, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx> wrote:

[Albert K. Fung]

haha:

> 民國的幽默大師林語堂說過：「問題不在於你相信什麼，而是在於你如何相信」。
> 就算本質是好的思想，一旦變成狂熱信仰，結果也會變成災難。

記不真:

> 隨著西方文藝復興，「主義」更百花齊放競爭，人類社會若能視之為 brainstorming
> 的參考根據，大概的確會好過將任一主張隨便當作譬如可蘭經般逐字狂熱膜拜。

時窮節乃見 一一垂丹青 .... 文天祥 《正氣歌》

One must understand that 林語堂 was not at all 秋瑾 - one was
fearlessly playing with her full mind and body - inside that
bloody ball court. The other, was criticizing with words and
sermons, safely from the outside. General Washington was not
a learned man. But he had the authenticity and honesty to re
-sign his commission, after the deed was done. He return his
military power to the Congress - after the revolutionary war
was over, and went home.

To his farm in Mt. Vernon ....

BTW: The Bible and the Koran, are very different. The former
is never deemed direct words from God. Therefore, it is
not clear that reformation is possible in the Empire of
Faith, Islam.

[AntiVirAlFungus]

On 6月7日, 上午11时27分, "Albert K. Fung" <akwf...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> One must understand that 林語堂 was not at all 秋瑾

[problem_luk@oremail_com]

Two struck ass with a donkey bell?.

"AntiVirAlFungus" wrote in message
news:00f92a00-72ad-4a42...@a6g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...