CHINA To SPY On American Olympics "Guests" -- Bush Urged Not To Attend!
uUGLY2
This is EXACTLY something China, the anal boil of the world, would
do! As it keeps Tibet locked up so it can kill as many freedom
fighters and independence advocates as possible before the "Games,"
the pissed-off Commies are also now determined to listen to and focus
on hotel guests to ensure "discussions" of China's criminal nation do
not take place between the sheets.
But if such talk is detected, expect "guests" to be rousted, roughed
up, then frog-marched to the airport.
This is the way things are done, this is the way the "Chinese brain"
works after 60 years of dictatorial rule and numerous mass murders of
its own people. Mass insanity.
What an Olympic host!
(Actually, a lot of Americans would LIKE Bush to attend the opening;
one WAR criminal welcomed by a WORLD criminal!)
--------------------------------------------------
"Senator: China plans to spy on Olympic hotel guests"
By SAM HANANEL
The Associated Press
Thursday, May 1, 2008; 2:12 PM
WASHINGTON -- A Senate lawmaker accused the Chinese government on
Thursday of ordering U.S.-owned hotels in China to install Internet
filters that can spy on international visitors coming to see the
summer Olympic games.
Sen. Sam Brownback, a Kansas Republican, made the charge at a Capitol
Hill news conference where he and other lawmakers denounced China's
record of human rights abuses and urged President Bush not to attend
the opening ceremonies in Beijing.
"This is wrong, it's against international conventions, it's certainly
against the Olympic spirit," Brownback said. "The Chinese government
should remove that request and that order."
Brownback said he has seen the language of memos received by at least
two U.S.-owned hotels. He declined to name them, and said he obtained
the information from two "reliable but confidential sources" in the
hope that public pressure would persuade the Chinese government to
back off the demand.
The senator called China "the foremost enabler of human rights abuses
around the world" and said the Chinese government is turning the
summer games into "an Olympics of oppression."
Other lawmakers condemned the Chinese government for supporting
repressive governments in Sudan and Burma, suppressing dissent in
Tibet and forcibly returning North Korean refugees who flee across the
border, where they face imprisonment and torture.
"The number one accomplice of the genocide in Darfur is the Chinese
government," said Rep. Frank Wolf, R-Va. "No official in the executive
branch, in the judicial branch and particularly in the congressional
branch ought to attend the opening ceremonies of this Olympics."
More than a dozen former North Korean refugees who escaped to China
and suffered beatings, imprisonment and other persecution at the hands
of Chinese officials attended the news conference to discuss their
plight.
While China wants the Olympics to be a sign of the country's growing
prominence on the international stage, Sen. Robert Menendez, D-N.J.,
said the country's actions confirm that "the Chinese people still live
under an iron fist."
"The Chinese government was awarded the games on the understanding
that it would work to significantly improve it's human rights record,"
Menendez said. "Clearly, it has not."
Brownback said he would press his case for Bush not to attend the
Olympic opening ceremonies when the president visits tornado-damaged
Greensburg, Kan., on Sunday.
Thus far, Bush has given no indication he will skip the Beijing event.
http:/www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/01/
AR2008050101972.html
rst0wxyz
> Why are we NOT surprised?
From politicians to each individual Americans, all gang up to demonize
a country that is doing its best to keep its citizens up with modern
education, modern conveniences, competitive society. When will it
ever stop?
PaPaPeng
wrote:
>"Senator: China plans to spy on Olympic hotel guests"
So that's why Client #8 former NY Governor Spitzer is not going. Sen.
Sam Brownback must be pretty high on the Client # list.
lo yeeOn
>> growing prominence on the international stage, Sen. Robert
>> Menendez, D-N.J., said the country's actions confirm that "the
>> Chinese people still live under an iron fist."
I have a lot of misgivings about China hosting the Olympics. Not the
least is racism is so perverse and so widespread, it is hard to make
people love you, if they are not ready. Jiang Zemin visited Japan
with the high hope that it would recognize its war crimes against
China, but he failed miserably and ended up spending the rest of his
historical trip to the country wandering from place to place like a
lost soul.
On the other hand, if it were true that the Chinese people still live
under an iron fist like these untrustworthy senators are charging,
then it would be extremely difficult to explain the overwhelming
support China has been receiving from its large contingent of overseas
students on matters surrounding the Olympics in the past two months.
I spent a week in Beijing for a conference in 1999. I also squeezed
out a very brief visit to the nearby coastal city of Tianjin in the
midst.
It was my sole visit to the communist China.
During the whole time, I commuted by bus and did a lot of walking.
People were generally relaxed, warm, and very friendly. They only
mind their own business unless you approach them first. I saw only
serenity amidst vibrant, ordinary human activities.
A most memorable scene was when I was returning from Tianjin on a bus
as it must have been entering the metropolitan area because there were
lots of people. And I notice there was a large crowd gathering around
a person in crumpled police uniform, wearing a crumpled cap, standing
next to a bicycle and writing down something on a small pad. I'm sure
it was nothing serious because some in the crowd who happened to be
close to the officer were craning forward trying to take a good look
at what he was writing down, apprently. And the officer apparently
was totally focused on the process of his writing.
The striking part of the scene is, of course, the casual atmosphere in
which the police was interacting with the people, something I just
have never seen in this country. In America, the fear between the
people and the police is completely mutual and serious. And no wonder
that we are number 1 (numero uno) for the biggest prison population in
the world.
I used to be very upset about the Tianmen massacre. But my 1999 visit
to China was reassuring in terms of the relationship between the
people and the government. Perhaps, the people have come to term with
their society; but I believe that it has become possible only after
the government has demonstrated its interests in their welfare and has
thus earned their trust.
One thing the American people seem to overlook is that a lot of what
comes through the media has been manipulated if not manufactured by
groups with an ulterior motive to try to weaken China, just like all
the scandals manufactured to defeat Obama's candidacy. The sources of
disinformation are counting on the observation that most people do not
bother to find out what real happens but simply swallow what they are
being fed.
I won't go into how unjust Obama and his pastor have been judged as I
have done that in other writings. Here I just have to say that if it
were such an iron fist which the people in China have to live under,
we would have seen a spontaneous rise of support from the overseas
Chinese in support of the Tibet independence protests. But when I
read the blogs and read what many from the group of Chinese overseas
students which number in tens of thousands just in the US alone have
reportedly said, I realize that those who are trying to profit from
the Tibet independence protests must have been greatly disappointed.
I don't know how bad the human rights violation in Tibet is, but I
have never seen a single report which accuses the Chinese government
of using helicopters and missiles to suppress dissent in there.
This is in great contrast to what we have been accustomed reading
about what is happening in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as in Gaza,
the West Bank, and Lebanon.
That alone tells us that the human rights violation in Tibet, if any,
has to be comparatively mild, by the standard the US and Israel have
set.
Finally, it must be said that the monks in Tibet have no economic nor
military means to defend themselves if they had a sovereign nation.
In fact one of the reasons why Tibetans are poor is because they are
less educated than most people who live in China. Because of their
semi-illiteracy, they both cannot see the problems they have to face
as they seek independence. They naively expect that there is a
freedom loving world of people to help them establish a sovereign
nation in the far reach of Western China. But the net effect of a
successful installation of a ``free Tibet'' amounts to getting mega US
military bases set up in the backyard of China. Knowing what has been
happening in the Middle East, the Chinese government has to consist of
damn fools in order that it would let an ``independent'' Tibet happen
without a fight. In fact after the modern Chinese experience with the
imperial Japanese before and during WWII in the first part of the 20th
century, an experience from a mere half a century or so ago, it is
doubtful that the Chinese would ever trust any foreign forces to set
up shop at a location near them again.
What the Chinese government needs to do to solve the Tibet
independence problem is to vastly improve the education and economic
condition of the Tibet people. When the people are better educated to
the point that they can think clearly for themselves, they will be
better able to see the pros and cons for an ``independent Tibet'' and
to see that a situation similar to the current Iraq or Afghanistan may
not be exactly what they have had in mind for a sovereign nation.
lo yeeOn
========
In article <6691b301-95d4-4bdc...@y18g2000pre.googlegroups.com>,
Jim Walsh
(in article <fvdl2k$sng$1...@reader2.panix.com>):
> On the other hand, if it were true that the Chinese people still live under
> an iron fist like these untrustworthy senators are charging, then it would be
> extremely difficult to explain the overwhelming support China has been
> receiving from its large contingent of overseas students on matters
> surrounding the Olympics in the past two months.
Really? What a strange argument.
Most if not all of the Chinese students interviewed in the press regarding
their support of the torch relay said they were doing so out of national
pride.
National pride does not equal support of the CCP.
--
Love, Jim
(I often delete parts of the previous post and I often remove excessive
crossposts.)
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Jim Walsh
(in article <fvdl2k$sng$1...@reader2.panix.com>):
> I used to be very upset about the Tianmen massacre.
Really? What could possibly change that?
lo yeeOn
Jim Walsh <JimNOwalsS...@gmNONail.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 2 May 2008 07:51:48 +0800, lo yeeOn wrote
>(in article <fvdl2k$sng$1...@reader2.panix.com>):
>
>> I used to be very upset about the Tianmen massacre.
>
>Really? What could possibly change that?
I explained why! The problem is you deleted the parts that I
explained the why, most likely due to the fact that you didn't like
what I had to say.
Essentially, you're blind to what has happened in the intervening
years in China. Essentially, there have been mostly contented people
in China. Essentially, you have an ulterior motive around the
soc.culture.china newsgroup to shut down any comments that could well
be perceived as a favorable assessment of China's internal conditions
today, even though those comments, like mine, were merely reports of
first-person experience.
What a shame!
It's a shame because deliberate suppression of valuable information on
first-person experiences increases public ignorance and hence brings
about costly strifes and ensuing potential military conflicts between
nations.
The dishonest politicians in Washington, D.C., are exploiting the
facts that most Americans don't know what is happening with the lives
of most people who live in a far away country like China. They told
you that the people in China are living under an iron-fist, which is
furthest from the truth. And I have provided my firsthand experience
for that. Those dishonest politicians were trying to conjure up for
the public the equivalent of, or a prelude to the equivalent of, a
spectre of Condoleezza Rice's ``mushroom clouds'' to stir up hatred
and resentment to a people they know nothing about.
And look what the fear-mongering have brought us: an Iraq war which
has brought us nearly a trillion dollars in debt and total disgrace in
the eyes of the world, not to mention the suffering we've caused the
untold millions of Iraqis. And there is no end in sight for the
quagmire because the politicians in Washington have thoughtlessly
started a scandal they don't know how to clean up. meanwhile,
innocent Americans as well as Iraqis continue to die. And all the
world knows is that the ``democracy'' and ``freedom'' our conniving
politicians are preaching at great costs to bring to a faraway country
are nothing but a pile of bandaged-together lies.
And the hate-mongering being brought up against China is disingenuous
in the first place and harmful to the interests of both the American
people and the people of China. And it is an unnecessary waste of
energy and goodwill as our economy burns like Rome was burning as the
decadent Roman emperor Nero watched.
The case of the Tibetan monks is very weak at best. Historically, And
the American history is the most appropriate one, no freedom can be
meaningfully achieved without the sacrifice of the freedom fighters.
King George the 3rd would have never given America its hard-earned
independence without the actual brains and brawns of our Bejamin
Franklins and Patrick Henries.
Likewise, the independence struggle of India which took much of the
first half of the 20th century to achieve under Mahatma Gandhi and
others involved much sacrifice of the Indians themselves.
Today the Washington politicians are telling the monks from Tibet just
like they have told the Kurds and Shiite Iraqis that they can depend
on our bombs and missiles to get ``freedom''.
First, most of the monks themselves are so ignorant that they can't
see that what the Washington politicians offer them is an oasis at
best and a bloody aftermath in the most probable eventuality.
Most of these monks are worse prepared than the Chinese in the 19th
century who thought they could repel the invading Europeans and other
foreigners and yet they didn't even know enough physics to suitably
calculate the trajectory of a fired projectile in order to hit at an
invading ship from Portugal, Britain, or Holland. So, no wonder it
took until more than 100 years later before the ancient country was
reborn.
Likewise, if the Tibetan monks really want to have their own country,
they need to first liberate themselves from their do-nothing way of
life, which may or may not be what they want to do. But if they want
to have what Patrick Henry and Benjamin Franklin wanted, they will
have to choose. They have to educate themselves like this modern
Chinese Rocket scientist Chien Hsueh-shen and others have done and
return to Tibet and help themselves, instead of relying American bombs
and missiles to bring them something on a bloody platter.
The calculated move to use the Beijing Olympics to embarass their
giant neighbor does them no favor because it is a country strongly
supported by its billion+ citizens and because the security threat any
American supported political change could bring on to China.
And for us Americans to distract ourselves from our massive internal
problems to meddle in this dispute is unwise because the Tibetan
independence movement is logically unsound, as explained above, and
because our massively failing economy badly depend on our financial
relationship with China.
lo yeeOn
========
For reference, I am appending here the text of my original follow-up
post:
>> While China wants the Olympics to be a sign of the country's
>> growing prominence on the international stage, Sen. Robert
>> Menendez, D-N.J., said the country's actions confirm that "the
>> Chinese people still live under an iron fist."
I have a lot of misgivings about China hosting the Olympics. Not the
least is that racism is so perverse and so widespread that it is hard
to make people love you, if they are not ready. Jiang Zemin visited
Japan with the high hope that it would recognize its war crimes
against China, but he failed miserably and ended up spending the rest
of his historic trip to the country wandering from place to place like
a lost soul.
lo yeeOn
========
==================================================================
lo yeeOn
Jim Walsh <JimNOwalsS...@gmNONail.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 2 May 2008 07:51:48 +0800, lo yeeOn wrote
>(in article <fvdl2k$sng$1...@reader2.panix.com>):
>
>> On the other hand, if it were true that the Chinese people still
>> live under an iron fist like these untrustworthy senators are
>> charging, then it would be extremely difficult to explain the
>> overwhelming support China has been receiving from its large
>> contingent of overseas students on matters surrounding the Olympics
>> in the past two months.
>
>Really? What a strange argument.
You have no argument. For me, the outpouring of support these people
have shown does not conjure up a situation in which their lives back
in China was under an ``iron fist'' like those unworthy and conniving
Washington senators have charged. Ultimately, the American people can
judge for themselves once they are more informed by the reports I've
read.
>
>Most if not all of the Chinese students interviewed in the press
>regarding their support of the torch relay said they were doing so
>out of national pride.
Yeah, riiiiight, national pride! The comments I read from the NYT do
not sound like it was just an identity kind of thing.
The reporters at the end of the article cited (which I append below)
did try to spin it by saying that most of these students would
eventually go home. Well, if they were living under an iron fist as
charged, they could refrain from speaking out and they could even take
this opportunity to make a massive defection move. And I'm sure that
those conniving Washington senators would love to give them asylum and
bring a few of them to Washington to show the world how much an
iron-fisted country China really is as they charged. Yet I don't see
any sign that these students were speaking out fervently just so that
they can gain some favor with their iron-fisted government so that
they won't be mistreated when they choose to return home one day.
>
>National pride does not equal support of the CCP.
Being an American does not mean he or she has to support either the
Democrat's party or the Republican's party. So, all in all, you have
not shown anything that could dispute my claim that the contentment
the Chinese public generally have for its government is an indication
that it is not living under an iron-fist as charged.
Lastly, I know a couple who has been spending their time in the past
several years in D.C. where they have maintained a home for decades,
in Beijing where the husband has a visiting position in academia, and
in HK where the wife has a family business to run, having retired as a
vice principal in a D.C. high school and taught mathematics herself.
Indeed I must say that no country could entice this well-established
American couple to enjoy moving around so much if the country were so
unpleasant as charged. You and those D.C. politicians have no case.
lo yeeOn
========
IFRAME:
http://view.atdmt.com/NYF/iview/nwyrksle0290000040nyf/direct/01/?click=
[2008.04.30.11.04.31]
Chinese Students in U.S. Fight View of Their Home
By SHAILA DEWAN
Published: April 29, 2008
Correction Appended
LOS ANGELES -- When the time came for the smiling Tibetan monk at the
front of the University of Southern California lecture hall to answer
questions, the Chinese students who packed the audience for the talk
last Tuesday had plenty to lob at their guest:
Monica Almeida/The New York Times
Ben Huang challenging a Tibetan monk last Tuesday.
Monica Almeida/The New York Times
Min Zhu, center, was removed from an event with a monk at the
University of Southern California after a bottle was thrown.
If Tibet was not part of China, why had the Chinese emperor been the
one to give the Dalai Lama his title? How did the tenets of Buddhism
jibe with the "slavery system" in Tibet before China's modernization
efforts? What about the Dalai Lama's connection to Hitler?
As the monk tried to rebut the students, they grew more hostile. They
brandished photographs and statistics to support their claims. "Stop
lying! Stop lying!" one young man said. A plastic bottle of water hit
the wall behind the monk, and campus police officers hustled the person
who threw it out of the room.
Scenes like this, ranging from civil to aggressive, have played out at
colleges across the country over the past month, as Chinese students in
the United States have been forced to confront an image of their
homeland that they neither recognize nor appreciate. Since the riots
last month in Tibet, the disrupted Olympic torch relays and calls to
boycott the opening ceremony of the Games in Beijing, Chinese students,
traditionally silent on political issues, have begun to lash out at
what they perceive as a pervasive anti-Chinese bias.
Last year, there were more than 42,000 students from mainland China
studying in the United States, an increase from fewer than 20,000 in
2003, according to the State Department.
Campuses including Cornell, the University of Washington in Seattle and
the University of California, Irvine, have seen a wave of
counterdemonstrations using tactics that seem jarring in the American
academic context. At the University of Washington, students fought to
limit the Dalai Lama's address to nonpolitical topics. At Duke,
pro-China students surrounded and drowned out a pro-Tibet vigil; a
Chinese freshman who tried to mediate received death threats, and her
family was forced into hiding.
And last Saturday, students from as far as Florida and Tennessee
traveled to Atlanta to picket CNN after a commentator, Jack Cafferty,
referred to the Chinese as "goons and thugs." (CNN said he was
referring to the government, not the people.)
The student anger, stoked through e-mail messages sent to large campus
mailing lists, stems not so much from satisfaction with the Chinese
government but from shock at the portrayal of its actions, as well as
frustration over the West's long-standing love affair with Tibet -- a
love these students see as willfully blind.
By and large, they do not acknowledge the cultural and religious
crackdown in Tibet, insisting that ordinary Tibetans have prospered
under China's economic development, and that only a small minority are
unhappy.
"Before I came here, I'm very liberal," said Minna Jia, a graduate
student in political science at U.S.C. who encouraged fellow students
to attend the monk's lecture. "But after I come here, my professor told
me that I'm nationalist."
"I believe in democracy," Ms. Jia added, "but I can't stand for someone
to criticize my country using biased ways. You are wearing Chinese
clothes and you are using Chinese goods."
Students interviewed for this article deplored the more extreme
expressions of anger, like death threats against the Duke freshman and
the tossing of the water bottle, and pointed out that Chinese students
had little experience in the art of protest. But, they said, they could
also understand them.
"We've been smothered for too long time," said Jasmine Dong, another
graduate student who attended the U.S.C. lecture.
By that, Ms. Dong did not mean that Chinese students had been repressed
or censored by their own government. She meant that the Western news
media had not acknowledged the strides China had made or the voices of
overseas Chinese. "We are still neglected or misunderstood as either
brainwashed or manipulated by the government," she said.
No matter what China does, these students say, it cannot win in the
arena of world opinion. "When we have a billion people, you said we
were destroying the planet./ When we tried limiting our numbers, you
said it is human rights abuse," reads a poem posted on the Internet by
"a silent, silent Chinese" and cited by some students as an accurate
expression of their feelings. "When we were poor, you thought we were
dogs./ When we loan you cash, you blame us for your debts./ When we
build our industries, you called us polluters./ When we sell you goods,
you blame us for global warming."
Rather than blend in to the prevailing campus ethos of free debate, the
more strident Chinese students seem to replicate the authoritarian
framework of their homeland, photographing demonstration participants
and sometimes drowning out dissent.
A Tibetan student who declined to be identified for fear of harassment
said he decided not to attend a vigil for Tibet on his campus, which he
also did not want identified because there are so few Tibetans there.
"It's not that I didn't want to, I really did want to go -- it's our
cause," he said. "At the same time, I have to consider that my family's
back there, and I'm going back there in May."
Another factor fueling the zeal of many Chinese demonstrators could be
that they, too, intend to return home; the Chinese government is widely
believed to be monitoring large e-mail lists.
Michael Anti contributed reporting from Cambridge, Mass.
This article has been revised to reflect the following correction:
Correction: April 30, 2008
An article on Tuesday about Chinese students in the United States who
have to deal with negative images of their home country misspelled the
family name of a doctoral student at the University of Southern
California who said the Western news media were biased against China.
He is Chau Wu, not Chou Wu.
* A Tale of Power and Intrigue in the Lab, Based on Real Life (March
27, 2007)
* China Luring Foreign Scholars To Make Its Universities
Great (October 28, 2005)
Jim Walsh
(in article <fvf2et$39u$1...@reader2.panix.com>):
> Well, if they were living under an iron fist as charged, they could refrain
> from speaking out and they could even take this opportunity to make a massive
> defection move.
Actually, without a "massive defection", they mostly do stay. It is hard to
find strong statistics, but the following comment in the non-political
"Science Magazine" by a Chemistry Professor is indicative.
"Ninety-five percent of the PRC graduate students now in the United States
will probably try to stay here. The vast majority will succeed in doing so."
Professor Roald Hoffmann is the Frank H. T. Rhodes Professor of Humane
Letters and Chemistry at Cornell University...
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/280/5362/386
Jim Walsh
(in article <fvevn8$rqc$1...@reader2.panix.com>):
> Essentially, there have been mostly contented people in China.
Actually, the murder of thousands of Chinese at Tiananman plus rapid economic
growth has created a kind of silenced population.
When China experiences its first significant recession, watch out. The glue
might not hold.
As Jan Wong wrote:
"Some experts think that Beijing's rapid economic growth gives it the same
stake in peace and stability as the West. China wants to compete, they say,
not on military might, but on economic strength. I agree that trade fosters
human rights and democracy, but only indirectly. Indeed, the more the West
engages Beijing's leaders, the more harshly they seem to treat their
dissidents. The Communist Party's priority is power. But the dilemma facing
China's leaders is this: If the economy grows fast enough, they will become
peacefully irrelevant, but if it slows down too much, they will be made
violently irrelevant.'"
Jim Walsh
(in article <fvevn8$rqc$1...@reader2.panix.com>):
> Today the Washington politicians are telling the monks from Tibet just like
> they have told the Kurds and Shiite Iraqis that they can depend on our bombs
> and missiles to get ``freedom''.
That is a silly lie.
Jim Walsh
(in article <fvevn8$rqc$1...@reader2.panix.com>):
>
> The calculated move to use the Beijing Olympics to embarass their giant
> neighbor does them no favor because it is a country strongly supported by its
> billion+ citizens
If so, why won't the CCP allow the Chinese to elect their own government? Why
won't it allow the Chinese normal freedom of speech, religion, and
expression?
pg
> On May 1, 12:28 pm, uUGLY2 <jismqu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Why are we NOT surprised?
>
> From politicians to each individual Americans, all gang up to demonize
> a country that is doing its best to keep its citizens up with modern
> education, modern conveniences, competitive society. When will it
> ever stop?
You are an American, aren't ya?
You are part of the problem !
pg
Dear Jimbo,
Admit it, this time you lose BIG !!!
Jim Walsh
(in article <fvevn8$rqc$1...@reader2.panix.com>):
> I don't know how bad the human rights violation in Tibet is, but I have never
> seen a single report which accuses the Chinese government of using
> helicopters and missiles to suppress dissent in there.
The first part is certainly true.
And what is important about the use of helicopters? They didn't need them to
kill thousands in Beijing in June, 1989 and they don't need them to oppress
Tibetans.
Jim Walsh
(in article <fvevn8$rqc$1...@reader2.panix.com>):
> That alone tells us that the human rights violation in Tibet, if any, has to
> be comparatively mild, by the standard the US and Israel have set.
Suppose Israel and the US were fascists societies killing millions a day.
That would not justify the oppression of Chinese by the CCP.
One crime does not excuse another.
Jim Walsh
(in article <fvevn8$rqc$1...@reader2.panix.com>):
>
> In fact one of the reasons why Tibetans are poor is because they are less
> educated than most people who live in China.
Since Tibet has been part of the PRC for more than 50 years, any lack of
education can be fairly blamed on the CCP.
Jim Walsh
(in article <fvevn8$rqc$1...@reader2.panix.com>):
>
> What the Chinese government needs to do to solve the Tibet independence
> problem is to vastly improve the education and economic condition of the
> Tibet people.
In addition to (and not instead of) the above, the PRC government must set
the Chinese free.
Frank Arthur
"pg" <pen...@catholic.org> wrote in message
news:75d7cff9-a72a-420d...@y22g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> On May 2, 6:35 am, Jim Walsh <jimNOwalsSPA...@gmNOail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Dear Jimbo,
>
> Admit it, this time you lose BIG !!!
How does Jim lose? It's the citizens of China who are losing big by
not having human rights and freedoms. They can't even connect to the
worldwide internet without being censored by the government.
rst0wxyz
Brainwashed people can not even admit soc.culture.china has people
participating in SCC discussions on a daily basis. Francis Poon, for
one, posts from ShenZhen, China daily. We have seen Chinese citizens
post from inside China many many times.
rst0wxyz
> On May 1, 12:39 pm, rst0wxyz <rst0w...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On May 1, 12:28 pm, uUGLY2 <jismqu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > Why are we NOT surprised?
>
> > From politicians to each individual Americans, all gang up to demonize
> > a country that is doing its best to keep its citizens up with modern
> > education, modern conveniences, competitive society. When will it
> > ever stop?
>
> You are an American, aren't ya?
>
> You are part of the problem !
Well, the waves I created can not even rock the smallest boat!!!
cnni...@yahoo.com
> a country that is doing its best to keep its citizens up with modern
> education, modern conveniences, competitive society. When will it
> ever stop?
>
Ignore wimps like Jim Walsh. Bashing China in front of a computer in
his private home makes him feel real poweful. Political animals like
him criticize China from outside the country without making an effort
to learn the reality. They do not want to see China improve socially
and economically. They wish darkness everywhere in China. The darker
things are, the more meaningful their clamoring for freedom and human
rights. Their prejudice is extremely strong and it guides their views
on everything China. Ignore them and their pissy diatribe. These
elitists consider themselves the center of the world's civilization.
They don't like the fact that China is by far the most successful
development project in late history and hasn't surpassed its peak yet.
OD
Shenzhen is like Hong Kong Lite. It's not like the rest of China.
PaPaPeng
<jimNOwa...@gmNOail.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 2 May 2008 20:46:21 +0800, lo yeeOn wrote
>(in article <fvf2et$39u$1...@reader2.panix.com>):
>
>> Well, if they were living under an iron fist as charged, they could refrain
>> from speaking out and they could even take this opportunity to make a massive
>
>> defection move.
>
>Actually, without a "massive defection", they mostly do stay. It is hard to
>find strong statistics, but the following comment in the non-political
>"Science Magazine" by a Chemistry Professor is indicative.
>
>"Ninety-five percent of the PRC graduate students now in the United States
>will probably try to stay here. The vast majority will succeed in doing so."
>
>Professor Roald Hoffmann is the Frank H. T. Rhodes Professor of Humane
>Letters and Chemistry at Cornell University...
>
>http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/280/5362/386
============================================
Some of Lee Kuan Yew's insights. Mr. Lee is the senior politician and
former PM of Singapore.
Interview: Lee Kuan Yew -- Part 1
Published: Feb. 8, 2008 at 10:13 AM
http://www.upi.com/International_Security/Emerging_Threats/Analysis/2008/02/08/interview_lee_kuan_yew_--_part_1/1475/
(1) Q: In the next 12 months, China, in this New Year of the Rat (Feb.
7) that you are now celebrating, will mark its transformation in the
past three decades from one of the poorest countries in the 20th
century into the world's third-largest economy, soon to displace
Germany, as the globe's new engine room of economic growth. Will China
be to the 21st century what America was to the 20th?
A: The Chinese leadership has come to the conclusion if they stay on
their present course, the peaceful rise of China's power will prevail.
They are determined not to challenge any existing power, meaning
America, EU, Russia, but just make friends with everybody. Given the
rules of the game now that China is in WTO, they can only grow
stronger year by year, and within three or four decades, China's GDP
will be equal to America's, their technology will be equal to what was
long regarded as the world's only superpower, and their GDP will be
larger than America's. And all that stems from what they have long
studied in detail in Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore. When Deng
Xiaoping came to Singapore he was amazed at what he saw, as his
briefing papers did not tally with his own eyes. That's when he must
have concluded the Communist system didn't work. He could see how we
were exploiting Western capitalism and had plants all over the place
with cheaper labor and exporting goods all over the world. Hell's
bells, he said, we can do that, too. That's when China began setting
up special economic zones around coastal cities. They saw Hong Kong,
Taiwan and Singapore with the advantages of close ties with the West,
access to Western technology, export markets, knowledge, capital and
an educated workforce. Now with WTO, they are on the same course,
sending 250,000 students abroad every year, and even though they may
lose 60 percent to 70 percent of them to other countries, they don't
care because they know many of them will come back eventually. Year by
year, they're closing the gap.
Q: And all this peacefully?
A: I watched "The Rise of the Great Powers" and I was amazed at this
scholarly job by noted historians. No Communist or leftist jargon. How
did some of these powers rise in history? Tiny little Portugal? Naval
technology, pure and simple. Christopher Columbus? Spain? Tiny
Holland, the French, the British, the armada, what was the trick?
Technology plus governments that united the people in a common
objective toward growth.
Q: Can the Chinese keep a one-party state going in this age of mass
media, the Internet, and almost 100 million blogs?
A: I was quite surprised when this television program analyzed the
British rise to global power status. The barons brought the king to
Magna Carta, and said you will rule through us, Parliament, not divine
right, but divine right through us. And when the king misbehaved, such
as Charles I, he was beheaded. It was subversive to advocate cutting
off the head of the Communist Party, but in today's China the people
have confidence in the leaders because they allowed the once-hated
merchant class to emerge and grow. That's the same dynamics that once
created the East India Company and created an empire.
(2) Q: You also have a brain drain?
A: Yes, we're losing them to America.
Q: Not China?
A: No, there they have to compete against 1.3 billion people producing
huge numbers of very bright people. They'd rather go to America where
they become acclimatized, then go to China with an American firm.
Chinese speakers, they are part of an American team with a leg up on
their Chinese competitors. And from there, they can come back to
Singapore with the kind of experience that puts them at the top of
their game. Those who seek less rigorous competition, a more relaxed
lifestyle, go to Canada and Australia.
Q: How many top brains do you consider lost to Singapore every year?
A: At the top end, about 1,000 a year. That's a loss of 4 percent or 5
percent. But compensating that, we have Chinese and Indians coming
here looking for better prospects. So on balance, we're still gainers.
But the day will come when China, in 30 or 40 years, will offer better
prospects than any country in the world.
rst0wxyz
ShenZhen is inside China, controlled by the Politburo in Beijing.
Now, you are saying, part of China is more controlled than other
parts?
OD
Absolutely. If you knew anything about Shenzhen and China you would know
that. But then you're just another typical dumb American who talks without
really knowing the facts.
rst0wxyz
A typical fool running his mouth without much thought. If there are
any place that need to control, it would places like ShenZhen where
modern technologies are in touch with people everyday.
Why would the Chinese government need to control rural areas where
people never see a computer and technology is just a word the farmers
have no idea what it means?
You are just a brainwashed person without thinking what the world is
like.
OD
So let's see, in your world, there's Shenzhen, and everything else is just
rural China. You're a moron that doesn't know anything about Shenzhen. I
lived there, you haven't.
rst0wxyz
I see you have an ax to grind.
OD
It's actually not that bad of a place to live. At least if you live outside
the city itself. But the best part is Hong Kong is just a short train or
ferry ride away when you need a break.
J.Venning
news:23dad4bc-deea-49ce...@w5g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>Ignore wimps like Jim Walsh. Bashing China in front of a computer in
>his private home makes him feel real poweful. Political animals like
>him criticize China from outside the country without making an effort
>to learn the reality. They do not want to see China improve socially
>and economically. They wish darkness everywhere in China. The darker
>things are, the more meaningful their clamoring for freedom and human
>rights. Their prejudice is extremely strong and it guides their views
>on everything China. Ignore them and their pissy diatribe. These
>elitists consider themselves the center of the world's civilization.
>They don't like the fact that China is by far the most successful
>development project in late history and hasn't surpassed its peak yet.
>
barking like a mad dog across the Taiwan Straits for over 20 years,
condemning the Chinese government and touting "democracy" - he even
proclaims himself as a "democracy activist". What he neglects to mention is
the fact that he never made it as a lawyer in the States, and took a trip to
Taiwan to "teach English", during which he met the love of his life and
married him, abandoning his wife and two children. He knows and cares fuck
all about his own country, because he is on the payroll of the Taiwan
government to incite hatred against China in the guise of doing it "for the
sake of freedom and democracy".
China does not need "democracy" at this point in time. Those who clamour
for "democracy" today are merely the ones who have failed under present
circumstances and dream that they would be better off under a different
government. The Chinese people may or may not want "democracy" - time will
tell - but the Chinese people certainly do not need such bigot homos like
Walsh to tell them what to do with their lives and how to do it. Who is this
Walsh anyway ? He is a failed man, a homosexual living on the pittance of
the Taiwan government to stir up discontent amongst posters on these
newsgroups. What has he done for his own country ? Nothing !
J.
z
Be reasonable. If Bush is going to attend any Olympics, it's got to be
the Special Olympics. Come on. "Missing Accomplishments!"
lo yeeOn
Jim Walsh <JimNOwalsS...@gmNONail.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 2 May 2008 19:59:36 +0800, lo yeeOn wrote
>(in article <fvevn8$rqc$1...@reader2.panix.com>):
>
>>
>> In fact one of the reasons why Tibetans are poor is because they
>> are less educated than most people who live in China.
>
>Since Tibet has been part of the PRC for more than 50 years, any lack
>of education can be fairly blamed on the CCP.
How does it amount to the charge that the ``Chinese people still live
under an iron fist''?
The poverty issue is a rather complex issue, directly linked to rapid
rising costs of living in an internationally linked economy. The US
is the driving force behind that. China used to have very low costs
of living but was being dragged up when the Chinese government decided
to liberalize its economy by doing all the dumb things like making
consumer goods for the poor US citizens.
Tibet has been left behind because of the far reach it is from the
center of Chinese industrial activities.
We don't have to go far to see the economic disparity in this type of
situation. A rust-belt blue-collar worker typically makes half of
what his/her counterpart makes in California. So, if you live in the
Appalachian mountains or the Ozarks, you are dirt poor and you are
bitter about the elitists from California and you cling to your guns
and your rosary, OK, Love, Jim? You're also more uneducated because
you're living away from the center of busy activities. Of course,
there is nothing wrong with that, it is a world of free will.
So, it is perfectly understandable that the Tibetans are even poorer
because they live farther away and farther up in the mountains.
But the Chinese government has recently completed a rail system which
connects Tibet directly to the rest of China. China is doing the
right thing to take care of its more disadvantaged in its far reaches.
Actually, 50 years may not have been too long to achieve what China
has accomplished in developing the link to Tibet, considering the fact
that nothing got done in the first half of the 20th century under the
Kuomingtang rule to help with the development of the Tibetan region,
_even though_ the Kuomingtang government also regarded Tibet as a part
of China. (Look at any official Chinese map during that era!!!)
But as I have suggested in my original followup post, the Chinese
government should accelerate their efforts even more so that the CIA
and other agent provocateur like you would find no audience to stir up
strifes and conflicts between America and China.
It is however not so easy because the monks are monks.
They are living under a theocracy, a theocracy which teaches the
virtue of doing nothing as the ultimate goal of life and which thrives
on the governed's ignorance.
(The first part may not be so bad, depending on your world view but
the second part is exploitation and is therefore totally bad.)
So, the Chinese government will have its hand full trying to educate
the people the need to balance their spiritual need with the need to
survive in a West-centric, dog-eat-dog kind of environment.
It's sad what the West has done to the want-to-do-nothing buddhist
monks. They want to exploit their identity to do things contrary to
their natural tendencies and blame their travail on the rest of the
Chinese!!!
The West is not so much interested in giving the monks freedom, just
as it has not been so much interested in giving the Afghans and Iraqis
freedom, rather it is interested in blaming and bring down the Chinese
government so it can exploit its vast resources.
lo yeeOn
========
In article <0001HW.C440DC14...@news-east.alibis.com>,
Jim Walsh <JimNOwalsS...@gmNONail.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 2 May 2008 07:51:48 +0800, lo yeeOn wrote
>(in article <fvdl2k$sng$1...@reader2.panix.com>):
>
>> I used to be very upset about the Tianmen massacre.
>
>Really? What could possibly change that?
I explained why! The problem is you deleted the parts that I
explained the why, most likely due to the fact that you didn't like
what I had to say.
Essentially, you're blind to what has happened in the intervening
years in China. Essentially, there have been mostly contented people
in China. Essentially, you have an ulterior motive around the
soc.culture.china newsgroup to shut down any comments that could well
be perceived as a favorable assessment of China's internal conditions
today, even though those comments, like mine, were merely reports of
first-person experience.
What a shame!
It's a shame because deliberate suppression of valuable information on
first-person experiences increases public ignorance and hence brings
about costly strifes and ensuing potential military conflicts between
nations.
The dishonest politicians in Washington, D.C., are exploiting the
facts that most Americans don't know what is happening with the lives
of most people who live in a far away country like China. They told
you that the people in China are living under an iron-fist, which is
furthest from the truth. And I have provided my firsthand experience
for that. Those dishonest politicians were trying to conjure up for
the public the equivalent of, or a prelude to the equivalent of, a
spectre of Condoleezza Rice's ``mushroom clouds'' to stir up hatred
and resentment to a people they know nothing about.
And look what the fear-mongering have brought us: an Iraq war which
has brought us nearly a trillion dollars in debt and total disgrace in
the eyes of the world, not to mention the suffering we've caused the
untold millions of Iraqis. And there is no end in sight for the
quagmire because the politicians in Washington have thoughtlessly
started a scandal they don't know how to clean up. meanwhile,
innocent Americans as well as Iraqis continue to die. And all the
world knows is that the ``democracy'' and ``freedom'' our conniving
politicians are preaching at great costs to bring to a faraway country
are nothing but a pile of bandaged-together lies.
And the hate-mongering being brought up against China is disingenuous
in the first place and harmful to the interests of both the American
people and the people of China. And it is an unnecessary waste of
energy and goodwill as our economy burns like Rome was burning as the
decadent Roman emperor Nero watched.
The case of the Tibetan monks is very weak at best. Historically, And
the American history is the most appropriate one, no freedom can be
meaningfully achieved without the sacrifice of the freedom fighters.
King George the 3rd would have never given America its hard-earned
independence without the actual brains and brawns of our Bejamin
Franklins and Patrick Henries.
Likewise, the independence struggle of India which took much of the
first half of the 20th century to achieve under Mahatma Gandhi and
others involved much sacrifice of the Indians themselves.
Today the Washington politicians are telling the monks from Tibet just
like they have told the Kurds and Shiite Iraqis that they can depend
on our bombs and missiles to get ``freedom''.
First, most of the monks themselves are so ignorant that they can't
see that what the Washington politicians offer them is an oasis at
best and a bloody aftermath in the most probable eventuality.
Most of these monks are worse prepared than the Chinese in the 19th
century who thought they could repel the invading Europeans and other
foreigners and yet they didn't even know enough physics to suitably
calculate the trajectory of a fired projectile in order to hit at an
invading ship from Portugal, Britain, or Holland. So, no wonder it
took until more than 100 years later before the ancient country was
reborn.
Likewise, if the Tibetan monks really want to have their own country,
they need to first liberate themselves from their do-nothing way of
life, which may or may not be what they want to do. But if they want
to have what Patrick Henry and Benjamin Franklin wanted, they will
have to choose. They have to educate themselves like this modern
Chinese Rocket scientist Chien Hsueh-shen and others have done and
return to Tibet and help themselves, instead of relying American bombs
and missiles to bring them something on a bloody platter.
The calculated move to use the Beijing Olympics to embarass their
giant neighbor does them no favor because it is a country strongly
supported by its billion+ citizens and because the security threat any
American supported political change could bring on to China.
And for us Americans to distract ourselves from our massive internal
problems to meddle in this dispute is unwise because the Tibetan
independence movement is logically unsound, as explained above, and
because our massively failing economy badly depend on our financial
relationship with China.
lo yeeOn
========
For reference, I am appending here the text of my original follow-up
post:
>> While China wants the Olympics to be a sign of the country's
>> growing prominence on the international stage, Sen. Robert
>> Menendez, D-N.J., said the country's actions confirm that "the
>> Chinese people still live under an iron fist."
I have a lot of misgivings about China hosting the Olympics. Not the
least is that racism is so perverse and so widespread that it is hard
to make people love you, if they are not ready. Jiang Zemin visited
Japan with the high hope that it would recognize its war crimes
against China, but he failed miserably and ended up spending the rest
of his historic trip to the country wandering from place to place like
a lost soul.
On the other hand, if it were true that the Chinese people still live
under an iron fist like these untrustworthy senators are charging,
then it would be extremely difficult to explain the overwhelming
support China has been receiving from its large contingent of overseas
students on matters surrounding the Olympics in the past two months.
I spent a week in Beijing for a conference in 1999. I also squeezed
out a very brief visit to the nearby coastal city of Tianjin in the
midst.
It was my sole visit to the communist China.
During the whole time, I commuted by bus and did a lot of walking.
People were generally relaxed, warm, and very friendly. They only
mind their own business unless you approach them first. I saw only
serenity amidst vibrant, ordinary human activities.
A most memorable scene was when I was returning from Tianjin on a bus
as it must have been entering the metropolitan area because there were
lots of people. And I notice there was a large crowd gathering around
a person in crumpled police uniform, wearing a crumpled cap, standing
next to a bicycle and writing down something on a small pad. I'm sure
it was nothing serious because some in the crowd who happened to be
close to the officer were craning forward trying to take a good look
at what he was writing down, apprently. And the officer apparently
was totally focused on the process of his writing.
The striking part of the scene is, of course, the casual atmosphere in
which the police was interacting with the people, something I just
have never seen in this country. In America, the fear between the
people and the police is completely mutual and serious. And no wonder
that we are number 1 (numero uno) for the biggest prison population in
the world.
I used to be very upset about the Tianmen massacre. But my 1999 visit
to China was reassuring in terms of the relationship between the
people and the government. Perhaps, the people have come to term with
their society; but I believe that it has become possible only after
the government has demonstrated its interests in their welfare and has
thus earned their trust.
One thing the American people seem to overlook is that a lot of what
comes through the media has been manipulated if not manufactured by
groups with an ulterior motive to try to weaken China, just like all
the scandals manufactured to defeat Obama's candidacy. The sources of
disinformation are counting on the observation that most people do not
bother to find out what real happens but simply swallow what they are
being fed.
I won't go into how unjust Obama and his pastor have been judged as I
have done that in other writings. Here I just have to say that if it
were such an iron fist which the people in China have to live under,
we would have seen a spontaneous rise of support from the overseas
Chinese in support of the Tibet independence protests. But when I
read the blogs and read what many from the group of Chinese overseas
students which number in tens of thousands just in the US alone have
reportedly said, I realize that those who are trying to profit from
the Tibet independence protests must have been greatly disappointed.
I don't know how bad the human rights violation in Tibet is, but I
have never seen a single report which accuses the Chinese government
of using helicopters and missiles to suppress dissent in there.
This is in great contrast to what we have been accustomed reading
about what is happening in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as in Gaza,
the West Bank, and Lebanon.
That alone tells us that the human rights violation in Tibet, if any,
has to be comparatively mild, by the standard the US and Israel have
set.
Finally, it must be said that the monks in Tibet have no economic nor
military means to defend themselves if they had a sovereign nation.
In fact one of the reasons why Tibetans are poor is because they are
less educated than most people who live in China. Because of their
semi-illiteracy, they both cannot see the problems they have to face
as they seek independence. They naively expect that there is a
freedom loving world of people to help them establish a sovereign
nation in the far reach of Western China. But the net effect of a
successful installation of a ``free Tibet'' amounts to getting mega US
military bases set up in the backyard of China. Knowing what has been
happening in the Middle East, the Chinese government has to consist of
damn fools in order that it would let an ``independent'' Tibet happen
without a fight. In fact after the modern Chinese experience with the
imperial Japanese before and during WWII in the first part of the 20th
century, an experience from a mere half a century or so ago, it is
doubtful that the Chinese would ever trust any foreign forces to set
up shop at a location near them again.
What the Chinese government needs to do to solve the Tibet
independence problem is to vastly improve the education and economic
condition of the Tibet people. When the people are better educated to
the point that they can think clearly for themselves, they will be
better able to see the pros and cons for an ``independent Tibet'' and
to see that a situation similar to the current Iraq or Afghanistan may
not be exactly what they have had in mind for a sovereign nation.
lo yeeOn
========
In article <6691b301-95d4-4bdc...@y18g2000pre.googlegroups.com>,
rst0wxyz <rst0...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On May 1, 12:28 pm, uUGLY2 <jismqu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Why are we NOT surprised?
>
>From politicians to each individual Americans, all gang up to demonize
>a country that is doing its best to keep its citizens up with modern
>education, modern conveniences, competitive society. When will it
>ever stop?
>
>>
==================================================================
lo yeeOn
Jim Walsh <JimNOwalsS...@gmNONail.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 2 May 2008 19:59:36 +0800, lo yeeOn wrote
>(in article <fvevn8$rqc$1...@reader2.panix.com>):
>
>> Today the Washington politicians are telling the monks from Tibet
>> just like they have told the Kurds and Shiite Iraqis that they can
>> depend on our bombs and missiles to get ``freedom''.
>
>That is a silly lie.
After what Bill Clinton has done to the former Yugoslavia using bombs
and missiles delivered by B2s, F18s, and giant choppers and likewise
what George Bush has done to Afghanistan and Iraq and is threatening
to do to Iran, there is no other way to view the agitation of the
Tibet independence as anything other than what I have interpreted it
to say.
In any case, where is the evidence for the ``Chinese people are still
living under an iron-fist''?
The Dalai Lama has been used and he knows it now, as his sentiment has
shown when he was in Seattle for that politically-motivated conference
and what not.
lo yeeOn
========
What a shame!
Today the Washington politicians are telling the monks from Tibet just
like they have told the Kurds and Shiite Iraqis that they can depend
on our bombs and missiles to get ``freedom''.
First, most of the monks themselves are so ignorant that they can't
lo yeeOn
========
lo yeeOn
========
==================================================================
>
lo yeeOn
Jim Walsh <JimNOwalsS...@gmNONail.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 2 May 2008 19:59:36 +0800, lo yeeOn wrote
>(in article <fvevn8$rqc$1...@reader2.panix.com>):
>
>> I don't know how bad the human rights violation in Tibet is, I have
>> never seen a single report which accuses the Chinese government of
>> using helicopters and missiles to suppress dissent in there.
>
>The first part is certainly true.
Just by your saying so, then I would be very dubious.
>
>And what is important about the use of helicopters? They didn't need
>them to kill thousands in Beijing in June, 1989 and they don't need
>them to oppress Tibetans.
The importance lies in the scale of suffering. When the Palestinians
lobs something into the Israeli settlement towns from the ground from
a great distance, the effect is random and slight. When the Israeli
helicopters flight over your heads and shoot their missiles directly
into your house in just 100 feet from above, the impact is total. And
the US bombers, F16s, F18s, gthe B1s and B2s, and the giant Chinooks,
Blackhawks, and other killing machines are used, the amount of blows
delivered to the unarmed citizens are deaths by the dozens each time.
Life is the most sacred gift any living being can have. Lives snuffed
out in a blow. That is the greatest human rights violation on earth.
Yeah, so you say they didn't need helicopters to kill thousands in
1989. I was very very upset about it and my life's record has shown
how upset I was about that. So, that's why I'm in a stronger position
now to condemn the huge violence that has been inflicted on the human
race since then: The first Gulf war, the Balkan war, the invasion of
Afghanistan, and the invasion and occupation of Iraq, as well as the
Israeli atrocities toward the Lebanese and the Palestinians. Because
of the air power and the high-precision killing machinery, hundreds of
thousands of people have been killed, and millions have been displaced
and that is the difference between bombs and missiles delivered by air
power as opposed to ground operations. I'm sure if the Chinese rulers
used helicopters in Tiananmen Square, the tolls would be ten times or
higher.
So, if I have never heard any accusation of the Chinese government
using air power to control the rioting in Tibet, I can believe that it
was doing it with restraint. So, contrast that with what our rulers
have been consistently doing to the human race!
lo yeeOn
========
What a shame!
lo yeeOn
========
I don't know how bad the human rights violation in Tibet is, but I
have never seen a single report which accuses the Chinese government
of using helicopters and missiles to suppress dissent in there.
This is in great contrast to what we have been accustomed reading
lo yeeOn
========
==================================================================
>
lo yeeOn
Jim Walsh <JimNOwalsS...@gmNONail.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 2 May 2008 19:59:36 +0800, lo yeeOn wrote
>(in article <fvevn8$rqc$1...@reader2.panix.com>):
>
>> That alone tells us that the human rights violation in Tibet, if
>> any, has to be comparatively mild, by the standard the US and
>> Israel have set.
>
>Suppose Israel and the US were fascists societies killing millions a
>day. That would not justify the oppression of Chinese by the CCP.
>
>One crime does not excuse another.
No crime excuses another. Yet, where is our energy directed when
there is a forest fire sweeping across the plain, when Rome is
burning, when we have a quagmire in Afghanistan and in Iraq, when we
have a depression-size recession, when we have a food crisis and fuel
shortage, and when we have endless war stimulated severe weather
conditions which killed many innocent people in the Ozarks and in the
plains, and when we have a war-exacerbated global warming situation?
All this energy that we need to devote to impeaching Bush and Cheney,
we instead distract ourselves by the false accusation of
``The Chinese people are still living under an iron fist''.
Where is the evidence?
In any case, the Tibetan discontent has been around and the right cure
is not set up a sovereign country in the back yard of China and
protected by US air bases which can be used to threaten China like the
Iraqi and Afghan bases are being used to threaten Iran right now.
The Tibetan discontent is an internal matter, best solved peacefully
by improved education and improved economic condigtions in the region.
lo yeeOn
========
What a shame!
lo yeeOn
========
That alone tells us that the human rights violation in Tibet, if any,
has to be comparatively mild, by the standard the US and Israel have
set.
Finally, it must be said that the monks in Tibet have no economic nor
lo yeeOn
========
==================================================================
>
lo yeeOn
Jim Walsh <JimNOwalsS...@gmNONail.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 2 May 2008 19:59:36 +0800, lo yeeOn wrote
>(in article <fvevn8$rqc$1...@reader2.panix.com>):
>
>>
>> What the Chinese government needs to do to solve the Tibet independence
>> problem is to vastly improve the education and economic condition of the
>> Tibet people.
>
>In addition to (and not instead of) the above, the PRC government
>must set the Chinese free.
Who are you to say that? There are some 40+ thousand Chinese students
in the US alone right now? Why don't you tell them to call for the
Chinese government to set them free and see if they think you aren't
some kind of lunatic?
So, never mind the 1.2+ billion people who live in China right now.
If you can't persuade 40+ thousand people who are free to be taken in
by our conniving senators if they would just say
``please take us'',
you think that 1.2+ billion people in China would agree with you and
those senators and live the way the helpless and hapless Iraqis and
the Afghans have to live now under American occupation?
And how would that be ``free''?
And how free are we?
lo yeeOn
========
What a shame!
lo yeeOn
========
What the Chinese government needs to do to solve the Tibet
independence problem is to vastly improve the education and economic
lo yeeOn
========
==================================================================
>
Jim Walsh
Jim Walsh
(in article
<7278092f-543b-444c...@u12g2000prd.googlegroups.com>):
Of course. Hong Kong is substantially less controlled that the rest of the
PRC. Places near Hong Kong are not as free as Hong Kong, but they are much
free-er than places like Tibet, or the Mainland generally.,
Jim Walsh
(in article <uehm14li2732l66br...@4ax.com>):
In other words, Mr. Lee of Singapore agrees with what I said.
Jim Walsh
(in article <fvg6nr$cco$1...@reader2.panix.com>):
> In any case, where is the evidence for the ``Chinese people are still living
> under an iron-fist''?
Wikipedia, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch.
Endless sources.
Jim Walsh
(in article <fvg840$8ru$1...@reader2.panix.com>):
>
> So, if I have never heard any accusation of the Chinese government using air
> power to control the rioting in Tibet, I can believe that it was doing it
> with restraint. So, contrast that with what our rulers have been
> consistently doing to the human race!
Your argument seems to be that the CCP can torture, oppress and kill the
Chinese because American does it.
That is an immoral argument.
Jim Walsh
(in article <fvg8tn$g8h$1...@reader2.panix.com>):
> No crime excuses another.
Therefore I expect you to stop mentioning oppression outside the PRC while we
discuss the CCP.
> Yet, where is our energy directed when there is a
> forest fire sweeping across the plain
No priority system explains overlooking the oppression of 1.3 billion people.
Jim Walsh
(in article <fvg8tn$g8h$1...@reader2.panix.com>):
> In any case, the Tibetan discontent has been around and the right cure is not
> set up a sovereign country in the back yard of China and protected by US air
> bases which can be used to threaten China like the Iraqi and Afghan bases are
> being used to threaten Iran right now.
No one. No one. I repeat: No one has proposed any of the above.
(Making up positions like this is called the Red Herring defense. You may
study it at the following URL.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi
Jim Walsh
Jim Walsh
(in article <fvg64d$f5q$1...@reader2.panix.com>):
>
> Tibet has been left behind because of the far reach it is from the center of
> Chinese industrial activities.
A government which leaves distant provinces behind is morally bankrupt as
well as incompetent.
Drooler
this group to SEPARATE "ordinary" Chinese persons from their popular
commie SLAVEMASTERS. But it won't wash!
Chinks are Chinks are Chinks!
1.3 billion subservient and uncreative buffoons who have to resort to
SPYING and THEFT to obtain advanced technology and intellectual
property.
International PARASITES!