Christie's to auction looted Chinese relics despite protests
MeiGuoXing
Chinese relics, saying that the auction will go on as scheduled
despite criticism from China.
The two items, the Qing Dynasty (1644-1911) bronze rabbit and rat head
sculptures, will be auctioned by Christie's International at the Grand
Palais in Paris from Feb. 23 to 25 as part of 700 pieces in the late
French fashion designer Yves Saint Laurent and Pierre Bergé collection
and are expected to sell for about 8 to 10 million euros ($10.4 to $13
million) each,
Christie's documents acknowledge that the two bronzes are part of
zodiac-inspired water fountain at Beijing's former Imperial Summer
Palace (Yuanmingyuan), which was sacked by British and French troops
in October 1860 during the Second Opium War.
The Beijing's Poly art museum now holds the tiger, monkey, ox and pig
sculptures while Beijing's Capital Museum holds the horse sculpture.
The location of the fountain's remaining five heads – a dragon, snake,
sheep, rooster and dog – is unknown.
A team of 81 Chinese lawyers have written to Christie's auction house
in an effort to stop the sale.
China said the bronzes are subject to a 1995 Unidroit agreement which
stipulated that "any cultural object looted or lost because of reasons
of war should be returned without any limitation of time span."
Christie's said in a statement that while it "respects the cultural
context around the sale of the fountainheads, we respectfully believe
the auction will proceed."
--
TRES RARE ET IMPORTANTE TETE DE RAT EN BRONZE PROVENANT DE LA FONTAINE
ZODIACALE DU PALAIS D'ETE DE L'EMPEREUR QIANLONG (YUANMING YUAN)
CHINE, DYNASTIE QING, EPOQUE QIANLONG (1736-1795)
Lot 677 / Sale 1209
http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?from=salesummary&intObjectID=5157530&sid=6c1ee474-bf97-44ef-8276-bc7ea692f795
TRES RARE ET IMPORTANTE TETE DE LAPIN EN BRONZE PROVENANT DE LA
FONTAINE ZODIACALE DU PALAIS D'ETE DE L'EMPEREUR QIANLONG (YUANMING
YUAN)
CHINE, DYNASTIE QING, EPOQUE QIANLONG (1736-1795)
Lot 678 / Sale 1209
http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?from=salesummary&intObjectID=5157531&sid=6c1ee474-bf97-44ef-8276-bc7ea692f795
Conditions générales / CONDITIONS OF SALE
7. Loi et compétences juridictionnelles
En tant que de besoin, les droits et obligations découlant des
présentes conditions générales de vente seront régis par la loi
française et seront soumis en ce qui concerne tant leur interprétation
que leur exécution, aux tribunaux compétents de Paris.
7. Law and Jurisdiction
The rights and obligations of the parties with respect to these
Conditions of Sale shall be governed by French law and their
interpretation and execution shall be subject to the competent courts
of Paris.
https://www.christies.com/LotFinder/AbsenteeBidding/ImportantInfo.aspx?saleid=22294&docCode=COB&COBPath=PAR/1209/ConditionsOfBusiness.htm
China and France China and France are signatories to the 1995 Unidroit
Convention on Stolen or Illegally Exported Cultural Object
Unidorit: International Institute for the Unification of Private Law
http://www.unidroit.org/english/conventions/1995culturalproperty/main.htm
http://www.meiguoxing.com/Attractions/The_Old_Summer_Palace.html
http://www.meiguoxing.com/Attractions/Poly_Art_Museum.html
http://www.meiguoxing.com/Attractions/Capital_Museum.html
kewkahfat...@hotmail.com
So the present financial crisis is a punishment to the West. They
behave like barbarians and still want to talk about human rights.
> Lot 677 / Sale 1209http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?from=salesummary&...
>
> TRES RARE ET IMPORTANTE TETE DE LAPIN EN BRONZE PROVENANT DE LA
> FONTAINE ZODIACALE DU PALAIS D'ETE DE L'EMPEREUR QIANLONG (YUANMING
> YUAN)
> CHINE, DYNASTIE QING, EPOQUE QIANLONG (1736-1795)
> Lot 678 / Sale 1209http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?from=salesummary&...
>
> Conditions générales / CONDITIONS OF SALE
> 7. Loi et compétences juridictionnelles
> En tant que de besoin, les droits et obligations découlant des
> présentes conditions générales de vente seront régis par la loi
> française et seront soumis en ce qui concerne tant leur interprétation
> que leur exécution, aux tribunaux compétents de Paris.
> 7. Law and Jurisdiction
> The rights and obligations of the parties with respect to these
> Conditions of Sale shall be governed by French law and their
> interpretation and execution shall be subject to the competent courts
> of Paris.https://www.christies.com/LotFinder/AbsenteeBidding/ImportantInfo.asp...
>
> China and France China and France are signatories to the 1995 Unidroit
> Convention on Stolen or Illegally Exported Cultural Object
> Unidorit: International Institute for the Unification of Private Lawhttp://www.unidroit.org/english/conventions/1995culturalproperty/main...
TFK
Turkestan which was taken by the Manchu conqust regime.
<kewkahfat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b08788ce-a0d6-405d...@q40g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
kewkahfat...@hotmail.com
Indians.
On Feb 16, 5:23 pm, "TFK" <tfkmjk6...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Then the facist Chinese imperialists should give back Tibet and also East
> Turkestan which was taken by the Manchu conqust regime.
>
> <kewkahfattsingap...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >http://www.meiguoxing.com/Attractions/Capital_Museum.html- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
jamesind...@googlemail.com
>
> TRES RARE ET IMPORTANTE TETE DE LAPIN EN BRONZE PROVENANT DE LA
> FONTAINE ZODIACALE DU PALAIS D'ETE DE L'EMPEREUR QIANLONG (YUANMING
> YUAN)
> CHINE, DYNASTIE QING, EPOQUE QIANLONG (1736-1795)
>
> Conditions générales / CONDITIONS OF SALE
> 7. Loi et compétences juridictionnelles
> En tant que de besoin, les droits et obligations découlant des
> présentes conditions générales de vente seront régis par la loi
> française et seront soumis en ce qui concerne tant leur interprétation
> que leur exécution, aux tribunaux compétents de Paris.
> 7. Law and Jurisdiction
> The rights and obligations of the parties with respect to these
> Conditions of Sale shall be governed by French law and their
> interpretation and execution shall be subject to the competent courts
>
> China and France China and France are signatories to the 1995 Unidroit
> Convention on Stolen or Illegally Exported Cultural Object
>
> http://www.meiguoxing.com/Attractions/The_Old_Summer_Palace.html
>
> http://www.meiguoxing.com/Attractions/Poly_Art_Museum.html
>
> http://www.meiguoxing.com/Attractions/Capital_Museum.html
The Auction House “Christie” should observe carefully the origin owner
of the product by not contradicting the European Law and Justice.
If those 2 bronze animal heads of 18th-century belongs to China and
that it should be lawfully returned to the Chinese people without any
condition.
You can’t auction any valuable item such as the “Antique Car” in EU
unless, that you have a proper legal Car Registration Certificate and
its satisfactory recorded history. Otherwise, that it will be
classified as an “illegal procession” of this product.
lasvega...@yahoo.com
>
> TRES RARE ET IMPORTANTE TETE DE LAPIN EN BRONZE PROVENANT DE LA
> FONTAINE ZODIACALE DU PALAIS D'ETE DE L'EMPEREUR QIANLONG (YUANMING
> YUAN)
> CHINE, DYNASTIE QING, EPOQUE QIANLONG (1736-1795)
>
> Conditions générales / CONDITIONS OF SALE
> 7. Loi et compétences juridictionnelles
> En tant que de besoin, les droits et obligations découlant des
> présentes conditions générales de vente seront régis par la loi
> française et seront soumis en ce qui concerne tant leur interprétation
> que leur exécution, aux tribunaux compétents de Paris.
> 7. Law and Jurisdiction
> The rights and obligations of the parties with respect to these
> Conditions of Sale shall be governed by French law and their
> interpretation and execution shall be subject to the competent courts
>
> China and France China and France are signatories to the 1995 Unidroit
> Convention on Stolen or Illegally Exported Cultural Object
>
> http://www.meiguoxing.com/Attractions/The_Old_Summer_Palace.html
>
> http://www.meiguoxing.com/Attractions/Poly_Art_Museum.html
>
> http://www.meiguoxing.com/Attractions/Capital_Museum.html
Christian Deydier, a French Asian art specialist, accused the Chinese
of carrying out a publicity stunt. “These objects were looted by the
Chinese themselves as much as the Westerners,” he told le Figaro
newspaper.
Sounds like that Mr. Christian Deydier is trying to legitimizing the
looting by Lord Elgin and the Franco-British armies. No matter how
many times the items change hands through legal transactions, it does
not deny the fact that they were stolen from China.
elliefro...@gmail.com
>
> TRES RARE ET IMPORTANTE TETE DE LAPIN EN BRONZE PROVENANT DE LA
> FONTAINE ZODIACALE DU PALAIS D'ETE DE L'EMPEREUR QIANLONG (YUANMING
> YUAN)
> CHINE, DYNASTIE QING, EPOQUE QIANLONG (1736-1795)
>
> Conditions générales / CONDITIONS OF SALE
> 7. Loi et compétences juridictionnelles
> En tant que de besoin, les droits et obligations découlant des
> présentes conditions générales de vente seront régis par la loi
> française et seront soumis en ce qui concerne tant leur interprétation
> que leur exécution, aux tribunaux compétents de Paris.
> 7. Law and Jurisdiction
> The rights and obligations of the parties with respect to these
> Conditions of Sale shall be governed by French law and their
> interpretation and execution shall be subject to the competent courts
>
> China and France China and France are signatories to the 1995 Unidroit
> Convention on Stolen or Illegally Exported Cultural Object
>
> http://www.meiguoxing.com/Attractions/The_Old_Summer_Palace.html
>
> http://www.meiguoxing.com/Attractions/Poly_Art_Museum.html
>
> http://www.meiguoxing.com/Attractions/Capital_Museum.html
That there are difficulties on the way to recovery of the stolen/
looted artefacts cannot be denied but the non-retroactivity of the
1970 UNESCO Convention or the 1995 UNIDROIT Convention is no argument
against pursuing the case for restitution. Non-retroactivity does not
mean or imply approval. The real question here is whether this
atrocious act of aggression and looting was ever approved by
International Law and not a few powerful States, notorious for acts of
aggression and spoliation. I would encourage the Chinese to pursue
vigorously their claim which would give us also a recent judicial view
of a shameful, aggressive practice of a few powerful States. The
judges must eventually decide whether there were no rules of law, in
Chinese, English and French Laws, as well as in International Law
which prohibited the unlawful destruction and taking away of the
property of others. Whether the laws of any particular country do or
do not prohibit such wrongful dealings with property is not a matter
to be settled with reference to the 1970 Convention.
There may be eventual questions of statute of limitation but that is
an issue which must be determined by the judges as a preliminary
issue. Above all, they must determine whether the ordinary rules of
limitation, enacted for the usual domestic situations apply at all in
such cases.
The judges would have to consider very carefully the meaning and
extent of the provision of Article 10(3) of the UNIDROIT Convention
which reads as follows: "(3) This Convention does not in any way
legitimise any illegal transaction of whatever which has taken place
before the entry into force of this Convention or which is excluded
under paragraphs (1) or (2) of this article, nor limit any right of a
State or other person to make a claim under remedies available outside
the framework of this Convention for the restitution or return of a
cultural object stolen or illegally exported before the entry into
force of this Convention."
Lyndel Prott comments on this provision as follows: "This paragraph
was the result. again, of the working group's compromise and provides
that the UNIDROIT Convention does not legitimise any prior illegal
transaction, nor restrict a State from claiming back such items, in
private law, by bilateral negotiation, inter-institutional
arrangements or through the UNESCO Committee mentioned above". Prott,
p.82, Institute of Art Law, 1997.
Most Westerners, including lawyers are allergic to any claims for
restitution from the colonial past. They must ask themselves about
their instinctive negative reactions to such claims without subjecting
the claim to rigorous examination of the law and all the background to
such claims. Laws must be interpreted in accordance with the
objectives of the law and not necessarily in the interest of the
powerful. Would we accept a conclusion that the laws of France,
Britain and United States permitted the wrongful treatment of the
property of others before the 1970 UNESCO Convention and the 1995
UNIDROIT Convention?
MeiGuoXing
The Chinese lawyers had reportedly had trouble finding an appropriate
plaintiff for the lawsuit.
Liu Yang, a Beijing lawyer who is helping to organize the lawsuit
threatened in France, said he had located Global Aixinjueluo Family
Clan, a descendant of China’s Qing Dynasty to serve as plaintiff in
the case.
Mr. Liu also asserted that the sale would violate a 1995 United
Nations convention governing the repatriation of stolen or illegally
exported cultural relics.
Patty Gerstenblith, a professor of law at DePaul University in Chicago
who specializes in cultural-property issues, said that France never
ratified the convention and that even if it had, the agreement does
not apply retroactively to objects looted decades or centuries ago.
“My view is this was looted, but it would be difficult to get that
legally back,” she said in a telephone interview with The New York
Times. “But it’s got great historical significance and ought to be
returned.”
Professor Gerstenblith suggested that one solution might be for the
Yves Saint Laurent and Pierre Bergé Foundation to negotiate with China
and offer it at a reasonable price. “It would probably be in the best
interest of everybody if they made a deal privately with China,” she
said.
Wang Yunxia, a professor of cultural relics law at Renmin University
in Beijing, said "So far, I haven't seen any international conventions
or laws that could be applied to the relics dating back that far (to
the Qing Dynasty)."
However, Wang also said even though the convention stipulated time
limits, it also says it did not in any way legitimatize any illegal
transaction that had taken place before its entry into force, nor
limited any right of a state or other person to make a claim under
remedies available outside the framework of the convention.
"The convention might not be directly applicable in the lawsuit, but
it has a strong moral binding force," she said. "The court in France
would face a strong moral consideration in handling the case."
She said if the lawyers did win the case, the verdict "would be made
due to moral concerns rather than law and regulations".
--
update on Yves Saint Laurent art sale
The National Treasure Funds of China, a non-governmental organization
seeking to repatriate stolen cultural relics, has failed to purchase
two Chinese artifacts owned by the late Yves Saint Laurent.
"They asked for 10 million US dollars for each but we only spent about
1 million on (another similar bronze). We thought the price was too
high," said Niu Xianfeng, deputy head of the foundation.
mol...@163.com
法国作家雨果对圆明园被劫文物的处理意见
最近，法国一家拍卖公司宣布即将公开拍卖中国文物鼠首与兔首。那是一百多年前英法联军从圆明园抢劫去的中国国宝。这些中国国宝的公开拍卖，无异
于对中国文物进行第二次公开抢劫。中国外交部和中国文物局的官员，都已经发表过严正声明，强调了中国对于这些文物的主权。中国民间人士也对这些国宝的命
运极为关注，已经有八十多位律师组成志愿者团体，企图以法律的方式索回这些中国文物。
可是中国官方和民间的所有这些努力，都没有任何效果，法国方面依然要在2009年2月下旬按时公开拍卖鼠首和兔首。
一百多年前的法国人是如何看待这种抢劫和这次拍卖的呢？前一阵偶尔从一本书中，读到法国大作家雨果对于法国人抢劫圆明园的义正词严的批评。
那是英法联军火烧圆明园灰烬未冷的时候，一位参与劫掠和纵火的法国军官给雨果写信，大概想听见一位大作家对他劫掠无数艺术珍宝之功绩的称赞。
可是有良心的雨果在1861年11月25日回信说：“有一天，两个强盗闯进了圆明园。一个强盗大肆劫掠，另一个强盗纵火焚烧。这两个强盗一个叫
法国，另一个叫英国。法兰西帝国从这次胜利中获得了一半赃物，我渴望有朝一日法国能够摆脱重负，清洗罪恶，把这些财物归还被劫的中国。”
可见，将劫掠的赃物归还原主，这是一种超时空的道义常识。雨果的正义呼声乃是留给那些强盗的遗嘱。
一百多年过去了，雨果依然是法国最受欢迎的作家，他的著作依然拥有最多的读者。今天的法国人读到雨果的呼喊究竟作何感想？为什么他们一边阅读雨
果的遗嘱，一边依然还要对中国文物进行第二次掠夺？他们对雨果所认定的道义为什么完全置若罔闻？难道今天的法国人都是强盗的后代，而没有雨果的后代？
rst0wxyz
This is the place where you can practice your English instead of
writing your national language which you know well. We are not here
to criticize you but to help you.
MeiGuoXing
The French poet, dramatist and novelist Victor Hugo (1802 -1885) wrote
a letter “To Captain Butler” in 1861 disapproving the sacking and
burning the imperial Summer Palace in Beijing with the following
comment: “There was, in a corner of the world, a wonder of the world;
this wonder was called the Summer Palace…One day two bandits entered
the Summer Palace. One plundered, the other burned…One of the two
victors filled his pockets; when the other saw this he filled his
coffers. And back they came to Europe, arm in arm, laughing away. Such
is the story of the two bandits…We Europeans are the civilized ones,
and for us the Chinese are the barbarians. This is what civilization
has done to barbarism…Before history, one of the two bandits will be
called France; the other will be called England. But I protest, and I
thank you for giving me the opportunity!” Hugo hoped that one day
France would feel guilty and return what it had plundered from China.
Read the full version of Victor Hugo's Letter to Captain Butler in
three languages (English,Français, 中文） if interested.
English Version
To Captain Butler
Hauteville House,
25 November, 1861
You ask my opinion, Sir, about the China expedition. You consider this
expedition to be honorable and glorious, and you have the kindness to
attach some consideration to my feelings; according to you, the China
expedition, carried out jointly under the flags of Queen Victoria and
the Emperor Napoleon, is a glory to be shared between France and
England, and you wish to know how much approval I feel I can give to
this English and French victory.
Since you wish to know my opinion, here it is:
There was, in a corner of the world, a wonder of the world; this
wonder was called the Summer Palace. Art has two principles, the Idea,
which produces European art, and the Chimera, which produces oriental
art. The Summer Palace was to chimerical art what the Parthenon is to
ideal art. All that can be begotten of the imagination of an almost
extra-human people was there. It was not a single, unique work like
the Parthenon. It was a kind of enormous model of the chimera, if the
chimera can have a model. Imagine some inexpressible construction,
something like a lunar building, and you will have the Summer Palace.
Build a dream with marble, jade, bronze and porcelain, frame it with
cedar wood, cover it with precious stones, drape it with silk, make it
here a sanctuary, there a harem, elsewhere a citadel, put gods there,
and monsters, varnish it, enamel it, gild it, paint it, have
architects who are poets build the thousand and one dreams of the
thousand and one nights, add gardens, basins, gushing water and foam,
swans, ibis, peacocks, suppose in a word a sort of dazzling cavern of
human fantasy with the face of a temple and palace, such was this
building. The slow work of generations had been necessary to create
it. This edifice, as enormous as a city, had been built by the
centuries, for whom? For the peoples. For the work of time belongs to
man. Artists, poets and philosophers knew the Summer Palace; Voltaire
talks of it. People spoke of the Parthenon in Greece, the pyramids in
Egypt, the Coliseum in Rome, Notre-Dame in Paris, the Summer Palace in
the Orient. If people did not see it they imagined it. It was a kind
of tremendous unknown masterpiece, glimpsed from the distance in a
kind of twilight, like a silhouette of the civilization of Asia on the
horizon of the civilization of Europe.
This wonder has disappeared.
One day two bandits entered the Summer Palace. One plundered, the
other burned. Victory can be a thieving woman, or so it seems. The
devastation of the Summer Palace was accomplished by the two victors
acting jointly. Mixed up in all this is the name of Elgin, which
inevitably calls to mind the Parthenon. What was done to the Parthenon
was done to the Summer Palace, more thoroughly and better, so that
nothing of it should be left. All the treasures of all our cathedrals
put together could not equal this formidable and splendid museum of
the Orient. It contained not only masterpieces of art, but masses of
jewelry. What a great exploit, what a windfall! One of the two victors
filled his pockets; when the other saw this he filled his coffers. And
back they came to Europe, arm in arm, laughing away. Such is the story
of the two bandits.
We Europeans are the civilized ones, and for us the Chinese are the
barbarians. This is what civilization has done to barbarism.
Before history, one of the two bandits will be called France; the
other will be called England. But I protest, and I thank you for
giving me the opportunity! the crimes of those who lead are not the
fault of those who are led; Governments are sometimes bandits, peoples
never.
The French empire has pocketed half of this victory, and today with a
kind of proprietorial naivety it displays the splendid bric-a-brac of
the Summer Palace. I hope that a day will come when France, delivered
and cleansed, will return this booty to despoiled China.
Meanwhile, there is a theft and two thieves.
I take note.
This, Sir, is how much approval I give to the China expedition.
VERSION FRANCAIS
Lettre de Victor Hugo sur le Palais d'Ete (Yuanmingyuan)
Lettre de Victor Hugo au capitaine Butler
Hauteville House, 25 novembre 1861
Vous me demandez mon avis, monsieur, sur l'expédition de Chine. Vous
trouvez cette expédition honorable et belle, et vous êtes assez bon
pour attacher quelque prix à mon sentiment ; selon vous, l'expédition
de Chine, faite sous le double pavillon de la reine Victoria et de
l'empereur Napoléon, est une gloire à partager entre la France et
l'Angleterre, et vous désirez savoir quelle est la quantité
d'approbation que je crois pouvoir donner à cette victoire anglaise et
française.
Puisque vous voulez connaître mon avis, le voici :
ll y avait, dans un coin du monde, une merveille du monde ; cette
merveille s'appelait le Palais d'été. L'art a deux principes, l'Idée
qui produit l'art européen, et la Chimère qui produit l'art oriental.
Le Palais d'été était à l'art chimérique ce que le Parthénon est à
l'art idéal. Tout ce que peut enfanter l'imagination d'un peuple
presque extra-humain était là. Ce n'était pas, comme le Parthénon, une
œuvre rare et unique ; c'était une sorte d'énorme modèle de la
chimère, si la chimère peut avoir un modèle.
Imaginez on ne sait quelle construction inexprimable, quelque chose
comme un édifice lunaire, et vous aurez le Palais d'été. Bâtissez un
songe avec du marbre, du jade, du bronze, de la porcelaine, charpentez-
le en bois de cèdre, couvrez-le de pierreries, drapez-le de soie,
faites-le ici sanctuaire, là harem, là citadelle, mettez-y des dieux,
mettez-y des monstres, vernissez-le, émaillez-le, dorez-le, fardez-le,
faites construire par des architectes qui soient des poètes les mille
et un rêves des mille et une nuits, ajoutez des jardins, des bassins,
des jaillissements d'eau et d'écume, des cygnes, des ibis, des paons,
supposez en un mot une sorte d'éblouissante caverne de la fantaisie
humaine ayant une figure de temple et de palais, c'était là ce
monument. Il avait fallu, pour le créer, le lent travail de deux
générations. Cet édifice, qui avait l'énormité d'une ville, avait été
bâti par les siècles, pour qui ? pour les peuples. Car ce que fait le
temps appartient à l'homme. Les artistes, les poètes, les philosophes,
connaissaient le Palais d'été ; Voltaire en parle. On disait : le
Parthénon en Grèce, les Pyramides en Egypte, le Colisée à Rome, Notre-
Dame à Paris, le Palais d'été en Orient. Si on ne le voyait pas, on le
rêvait. C'était une sorte d'effrayant chef-d'œuvre inconnu entrevu au
loin dans on ne sait quel crépuscule, comme une silhouette de la
civilisation d'Asie sur l'horizon de la civilisation d'Europe.
Cette merveille a disparu.
Un jour, deux bandits sont entrés dans le Palais d'été. L'un a pillé,
l'autre a incendié. La victoire peut être une voleuse, à ce qu'il
paraît. Une dévastation en grand du Palais d'été s'est faite de compte
à demi entre les deux vainqueurs. On voit mêlé à tout cela le nom
d'Elgin, qui a la propriété fatale de rappeler le Parthénon. Ce qu'on
avait fait au Parthénon, on l'a fait au Palais d'été, plus
complètement et mieux, de manière à ne rien laisser. Tous les trésors
de toutes nos cathédrales réunies n'égaleraient pas ce splendide et
formidable musée de l'orient. Il n'y avait pas seulement là des chefs-
d'œuvre d'art, il y avait un entassement d'orfèvreries. Grand exploit,
bonne aubaine. L'un des deux vainqueurs a empli ses poches, ce que
voyant, l'autre a empli ses coffres ; et l'on est revenu en Europe,
bras dessus, bras dessous, en riant. Telle est l'histoire des deux
bandits.
Nous, Européens, nous sommes les civilisés, et pour nous, les Chinois
sont les barbares. Voila ce que la civilisation a fait à la barbarie.
Devant l'histoire, l'un des deux bandits s'appellera la France,
l'autre s'appellera l'Angleterre. Mais je proteste, et je vous
remercie de m'en donner l'occasion ; les crimes de ceux qui mènent ne
sont pas la faute de ceux qui sont menés ; les gouvernements sont
quelquefois des bandits, les peuples jamais.
L'empire français a empoché la moitié de cette victoire et il étale
aujourd'hui avec une sorte de naïveté de propriétaire, le splendide
bric-à-brac du Palais d'été.
J'espère qu'un jour viendra où la France, délivrée et nettoyée,
renverra ce butin à la Chine spoliée.
En attendant, il y a un vol et deux voleurs, je le constate.
Telle est, monsieur, la quantité d'approbation que je donne à
l'expédition de Chine.
中文
维克多*雨果的一封信
巴特勒上校：
您问我对于远征中国的看法。先生您觉得这次远征又体面又高尚；您相当善意地看重我对此的感情。您认为在维多利亚女皇和拿破仑皇帝的双重旗帜下对中国进行
的这次远征是英法两国共享的光荣；您想知道我对这次英法取得的胜利能给予多大程度的赞同。
既然您愿意知道我的看法，那我就发表如下：
从前在世界的一方有个奇迹：这个世界奇迹叫圆明园。艺术有两种原则：一种是构思，它产生了欧洲艺术，另一种是想象，它产生了东方艺术。圆明园是属于想象
的艺术，巴特农则是构思的艺术。一个近乎超凡的民族利用其想象力能够造出的全部东西都集中在那里。它不象巴特农那样是举世无双的稀有作品，而是想象造出
的一个巨大模型，如果想象可以有模型的话。请您想象一种大家不知道是怎样的、而又无法形容的建筑物，就像月宫里的一座建筑物，那就是圆明园……建造这座
圆明园足足用了两代人的劳动；它像一座城市那么大，由岁月造成。造给谁？造给人民。因为由岁月建筑的东西都属于人民。凡艺术家、诗人、哲学家都熟悉圆明
园，伏尔泰是这么说的。大家都在说：希腊的巴特农，埃及的金字塔，罗马的圆形大剧场，巴黎的圣母院，东方的圆明园。如果人们见不到它，就会梦见它。这是
一件令人咋舌的、从未见过的杰作，从神秘的暮色中远远望去就像是耸立在欧洲文明地平线上的一个东方文明的朦胧轮廓。
这个奇迹现在消失了。
一天，两个强盗闯入圆明园，一个掠夺，一个纵火。似乎获得胜利就可以当强盗了；两个胜利者把大肆掠夺圆明园的所得对半分赃。在这一切的所作所为中，隐隐
约约见到了埃尔金的名字，这必然使人们回想起巴特农：以前有人对巴特农所干的，现在对圆明园又干了起来，而且干得更彻底、更好，一扫而光。把我们所有大
教堂里收藏的宝贝堆在一起，也抵不上这座光辉灿烂的东方博物馆，那里不仅有艺术精品，还有大堆大堆的金银制品。伟大的功勋，喜人的收获。一个胜利者装满
了身上所有的口袋，另一个见了，也把一个个保险箱装满。于是，他们手挽手笑着回到欧洲。这就是两个强盗的故事。
我们欧洲人是文明人，中国人在我们眼里是野蛮人，这就是文明对野蛮所干的勾当。
在历史面前，一个强盗叫法兰西，另一个强盗叫英国。但是我抗议。我感谢您给我这个机会让我申明：统治者所犯的罪行并不是被统治者的错误；政府有时是强
盗，但人民永远不会作强盗。
法兰西帝国侵占了这次胜利的一半成果；今天，他以一种所有者的天真，炫耀着圆明园里的灿烂古董。我希望，铲除污垢后解放了的法兰西把这些赃物归还给被掠
夺过的中国的那一天将会到来。
而现在我看到的，是一次偷盗行为和两个小偷。
先生，这就是我对远征中国的行为所给予的赞同程度。
维克多*雨果
1861年11月25日
Sources:
Hugo, Victor. "The sack of the summer palace," UNESCO Courier.
November 1985.
Angela Tsai, Angela et al."Splendors of a Bygone Age," Tsu Chi
Foundation.
Cette lettre est publiée dans Nora Wang, Ye Xin, Wang Lou, "Victor
Hugo et le sac du Palais d’été", Les Indes savantes, You Feng, 2003.
Repris du Monde Diplomatique d’octobre 2004.
http://www.chine-informations.com/guide/chine-lettre-de-victor-hugo-sur-le-palais-dete-yuanmingyuan_1618.html
kewkahfat...@hotmail.com
> 果的遗嘱，一边依然还要对中国文物进行第二次掠夺？他们对雨果所认定的道义为什么完全置若罔闻？难道今天的法国人都是强盗的后代，而没有雨果的后代？- Hide quoted text -
MeiGuoXing
Latest Update on the "sale of the century":
French judge asked to stop sale of Chinese relics
Feb 20, 2009
PARIS — A Chinese-backed group is asking a Paris judge to suspend the
sale of bronze relics looted in the 19th century and now part of a
giant auction expected to fetch up to 300 million euros (392 million
dollars).
The judge will rule Monday morning on the request — just hours before
the auction at Christie's in Paris begins, lawyer Romuald Sayag said
Friday.
Sayag submitted the request to halt the sale of the bronzes on behalf
of APACE, a group mandated by the Chinese government to protect
Chinese art on the world market.
A group of Chinese lawyers have also launched a legal bid from Beijing
to stop the auction.
Chinese lawyer Liu Yang told the French news agency AFP that papers
had been filed late on Thursday to pull the items from the sale.
"Yesterday we applied to the court in Paris for an injunction to stop
the sale of the bronzes through our lawyer in Paris, we are now
waiting for the reply from the court," Mr Liu said.
MeiGuoXing
>
> read more »
French judges allows auction of Chinese artifacts
Feb. 23, 2009
PARIS — A French judge Monday refused to halt the sale of disputed
Chinese bronze fountainheads heading for Christie's auction block as
part of fashion designer Yves Saint Laurent's estate.
The summary ruling was made by a Paris administrative court after a
Chinese cultural defense group, Apace, brought the suit. The group was
ordered to pay 1,000 euros ($1,274) each to Christie’s and to the
auction house run by Saint Laurent’s former partner Pierre Berge.
The two bronze sculptures, a rat and a rabbit, are scheduled to be
auctioned on Wednesday.
Sources:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601088&sid=abiJtfqfSreU&refer=muse
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iqinPVFsgcMUyoadAe-2d1rt4GxQD96HGS9O0
rst0wxyz
Since the items were stolen from China,
the thing to do is to steal them back.
Chinese people are and were known as thieves.
Any taker?
jamesind...@googlemail.com
> Latest Update on the "sale of the century":
>
> French judge asked to stop sale of Chinese relics
> Feb 20, 2009
>
> PARIS — A Chinese-backed group is asking a Paris judge to suspend the
> sale of bronze relics looted in the 19th century and now part of a
> giant auction expected to fetch up to 300 million euros (392 million
> dollars).
>
>
China Fails to Halt the Sale of Looted Relics at a Paris Auction
By STEVEN ERLANGER
February 25, 2009
New York Times
PARIS — Two bronze heads originally looted from China were sold
Wednesday night for a total of nearly $35.9 million without
commissions, after fierce but futile protests from China and a failed
legal challenge to the auction.
The bronze heads were bought by anonymous bidders on the telephone,
but the winning bids on both pieces were taken by the same Christie’s
employee, Thomas Seydoux, suggesting that the buyer might be the same
person. But Mr. Seydoux said later that he did not know who the buyers
were.
Wednesday night was the end of the extraordinary three-day sale of the
collection of the French fashion designer Yves Saint Laurent and his
personal and business partner, Pierre Bergé. The auction, which
included noted works of art, furniture and silver from antiquity to
modernism, was the most expensive ever for a private collection.
Christie’s said that the entire auction, including commissions,
brought roughly $478.8 million. After commissions, the proceeds will
go to a variety of charitable foundations and causes, including the
fight against AIDS.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/26/world/europe/26auction.html?ref=world
jachiec...@gmail.com
sale
Jackie Chan, the action film star, has thrown his weight behind
Beijing’s efforts to shame France over the sale of two looted Chinese
sculptures that were part of the Yves Saint Laurent collection.
The bronze rat and rabbit, removed when British and French forces
sacked the Old Summer Palace in 1860, were sold for ¤14 million (£12.5
million) each to two anonymous bidders last night, despite Chinese
objections.
Mr Chan said France had behaved disgracefully in allowing the sale.
“They remain looted items, no matter whom they were sold to. Whoever
took it out [of China] is himself a thief,” he said . “It was looting
yesterday. It is still looting today.”
The Rush Hour star accused Western countries of stealing cultural
relics from nations with ancient heritages such as China, Egypt and
Cambodia, while insisting they were doing so only to preserve them. He
said that he was planning to make a film about the return of some of
China’s stolen national treasures, with filming scheduled to start
next year.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5808123.ece
steven....@yahoo.com
Good one Jackie, I'll come see your movie; bound to be at least a
thousand times more interesting - and fun - than a film about YSL
could ever hope to be... actually that goes for about 95% of all
French cinema really.
pushpafro...@live.com
> On Feb 26, 8:18 pm, jachiechan....@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > sale
>
> > Jackie Chan, the action film star, has thrown his weight behind
> > Beijing’s efforts to shame France over the sale of two looted Chinese
> > sculptures that were part of the Yves Saint Laurent collection.
>
> > The bronze rat and rabbit, removed when British and French forces
> > sacked the Old Summer Palace in 1860, were sold for ¤14 million (£12.5
> > million) each to two anonymous bidders last night, despite Chinese
> > objections.
>
> > Mr Chan said France had behaved disgracefully in allowing the sale.
> > “They remain looted items, no matter whom they were sold to. Whoever
> > yesterday. It is still looting today.”
>
> > The Rush Hour star accused Western countries of stealing cultural
> > Cambodia, while insisting they were doing so only to preserve them. He
> > said that he was planning to make a film about the return of some of
> >China’s stolen national treasures, with filming scheduled to start
> > next year.
>
> >http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5808123.ece
>
> Good one Jackie, I'll come see your movie; bound to be at least a
> thousand times more interesting - and fun - than a film about YSL
> could ever hope to be... actually that goes for about 95% of all
> French cinema really.
Good on Jackie Chan & Beijing.During the Colonial era, British, French
looted several countries. Brits ruled India for nearly 300 years & god
knows how many ancient relics, artifacts, gold, diamonds & precious
jewelery etc. have been looted from India. Everything must be returned
to original owners.
jimde...@yahoo.com
would we feel in America. We would DEMAND it's return to American
soil.
jamesind...@googlemail.com
BEIJING (Reuters) - A Chinese man said on Monday that he was the
winning bidder for two bronze sculptures at a Paris auction last week,
but he had no intention paying for the controversial treasures looted
from Beijing.
The two sculptures, heads of a rat and a rabbit, were from the estate
of Yves Saint Laurent and sold for 15 million euros each ($20 million)
to a telephone bidder during the auction of the late designer's art
collection.
But Cai Mingchao, an adviser to a fund that seeks to retrieve looted
treasures, said no money would change hands for the relics stolen from
Beijing's Summer Palace, which was razed in 1860 by French and British
forces.
Reading a brief statement, Cai told a news conference that his bid was
a patriotic act.
"I think any Chinese person would have stood up at that moment. It was
just that the opportunity came to me. I was merely fulfilling my
responsibilities."
http://www.reuters.com/article/artsNews/idUSTRE5210FM20090302
rst0wxyz
Excellent!!! excellent!!!
I wish I had thought of it.
rst0wxyz
Excellent!!! excellent!!!, Cai Mingchao.
I wish I had thought of it!!!
steven....@yahoo.com
If Mr Cai is indeed the winning bidder, his decision not to pay for
the two heads is unlikely to have a serious impact on Christie’s –
although his standing in the international art world could be
affected. The auction house would be unlikely to sue him for breach of
contract and in such cases usually turns to the underbidder to take
the items.
rst0wxyz
Don't you think Mr. Cai already has possession of those items before
he revealed himself and his intention?
elliot....@gmail.com
How about start paying for royalties and buying original copyrighted
material instead of stealing? Then you can have your statues.
rst0wxyz
Oh!! come on, elliot. You know laws are made to be broken. Catch
them if you can.
They do it in the United States, and all over the world, not only in
China.
ved
The Chinese government should send agents to break into all the
museums, etc., around the world and take back what belongs to them;
which is of course the manner in which they were stolen from China in
the first place. For good measure, they should also steal the Mona
Lisa and a few other Western art pieces and auction them off in
China. Instead of spending money to bid on these artworks, Chinese
people should use the money to devise plans to take these relics back
with force. You should never negotiate with terrorists and you should
likewise not condone these French thieves by paying them for something
that is already yours.
rst0wxyz
Excellent ideas. Not only China, the list includes Epypt, Iraq, Iran,
India, Japan,...
roycepenstinger
>
> - Show quoted text -
Christie's should give China and their moron thug 30 days to pay what
they bid...at the end of 30 days, dump said relics into a forge and
recast them into two brand new Donkeys...one ass each for the bidder
and President Hu.
rst0wxyz
Great!! You just turn $30 millions worth of antiques into two pounds
of cast-iron worth two dollars.
elliot....@gmail.com
That's not true! Are you comparing a 20% use of copied software in the
US with 99% in China? This is only for software, it gets worse in many
other areas. Start paying! The worst is the technology theft by
chinese spies!
rst0wxyz
20% or 99%, either way, it is stealing. All countries, including the
United States, steal from other countries. Within the Unites States,
people steal from stores, from the government, from other people. And
don't tell me you haven't stolen anything.
bmo...@nyx.net
No, he does not.
demor...@aol.com
> The Chinese government should send agents to break into all the
> museums, etc., around the world and take back what belongs to them;
> which is of course the manner in which they were stolen from China in
> the first place.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2009/03/chinese_loot_propaganda_then_a.cfm
In a report of the tale today, the Times newspaper makes the point
that the summer palace was ordered burned to the ground by the British
commander, Lord Elgin, not as an act of vandalism, but as an act of
calculated retribution, after Chinese imperial officers kidnapped,
tortured and killed 12 members of a European diplomatic delegation,
among them a correspondent for the Times, Thomas Bowlby.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_William_Bowlby
Bowlby died on 22 September [1860] at Tungchow, from the effects of
the treatment he received in prison. His body was afterwards
surrendered by the Chinese and buried in the Russian Cemetery outside
the Anting gate of Peking on 17 October 1860; he left a widow and five
young children, among them the future Anthony Alfred Bowlby.
rst0wxyz
> On Mar 2, 1:51 pm, ved <edmond...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The Chinese government should send agents to break into all the
> > museums, etc., around the world and take back what belongs to them;
> > which is of course the manner in which they were stolen from China in
> > the first place.
>
>
> In a report of the tale today, the Times newspaper makes the point
> that the summer palace was ordered burned to the ground by the British
> commander, Lord Elgin, not as an act of vandalism, but as an act of
> calculated retribution, after Chinese imperial officers kidnapped,
> tortured and killed 12 members of a European diplomatic delegation,
> among them a correspondent for the Times, Thomas Bowlby.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_William_Bowlby
>
> Bowlby died on 22 September [1860] at Tungchow, from the effects of
> the treatment he received in prison. His body was afterwards
> surrendered by the Chinese and buried in the Russian Cemetery outside
> the Anting gate of Peking on 17 October 1860; he left a widow and five
> young children, among them the future Anthony Alfred Bowlby.
Maybe it's time for China to burn Buckingham Palace and the Eiffel
Tower!!!
rst0wxyz
for Western nations to sell antiques
stolen from the old world from this point on.
rst0wxyz
He should wait until they deliver the relics, and taking in his hands,
and said;
"Now, I will put these in the safe, and get you the money"
After putting them in the safe and locking it, and
tell the courier:
"Now, China has stolen them. You can go now. Thank you".
rst0wxyz
Oooops, left out one word.
"Now, China has stolen them back. You can go now. Thank you".
demor...@aol.com
Why is stealing cultural relics bad, but stealing technological relics
through spying not bad?
elliot....@gmail.com
Excellent point ;) Not to mention that stealing technologies affects
much more people than stealing some relics, not that it was exactly
the same...