On Chinese culture
tkida
has traditionally been focused on the theme of nature. The aesthetics
of Chinese art (particularly the minimalism of Southern Song dynasty
paintings) inspires a love for nature, a love for things that are
beautiful at its base. It's a kind of clean and simple beauty that
should have defined the country. But instead, all this is lost. No
Chinese seems to care for the simple masterpieces made by the Chinese
themselves some 800 years ago. Instead, it seems much of the ideas
circulating in Southern Song crossed the sea and entered Japan
instead, wholesale, where it is still deeply ingrained in the minds
and culture of Japanese society. How many Chinese today have even a
vague sense of what Qian (Zen) Buddhism was about? its love of
nature? its aesthetic qualities? its total "Chinese-ness" as a
philosophy, a religion and an art? That Chinese-ness it seems has
long been lost amongst the Chinese.
Instead what the Chinese have now is HK Kungfu flicks, Shaolin Temple,
food, notion of a humiliated nationality, peasant and mingong
discrimination, zero nationalistic pride, a pessimistic view of the
creativity and strength of the Chinese nationality, a resigned sense
that the Chinese can never get their act together, the belief that the
Chinese's very own products are cheap etc, etc (ask Goldfinger)...
Chinese culture now conveys a feeling of greasiness, oiliness..
unclean but very flavored in an unelegant way.
This is all very regretable, considering the potential of China's
history and aesthetic past that can mobilize the population. Why is
spitting a national pasttime for the Chinese? If adequate education
is given to the Chinese people, and a keen sense of aestheticism
nourished amongst the population (all of which can be obtained from
the infinite reservoir of Chinese history and art), do you think the
people would spit so much?
Chinese philosophy and art has traditionally embraced nature,
meditative silence, and simple beauty in purity. If today's people
are taught to embrace this, many of the ills in Chinese society today
would be dissolved. Nationalism amongst the Chinese would become more
genuine (thereby stronger), and more responsible.
klmok
>There should be more aesthetic education in China today. Chinese art
>has traditionally been focused on the theme of nature. The aesthetics
>of Chinese art (particularly the minimalism of Southern Song dynasty
>paintings) inspires a love for nature, a love for things that are
>beautiful at its base. It's a kind of clean and simple beauty that
>should have defined the country. But instead, all this is lost. No
>Chinese seems to care for the simple masterpieces made by the Chinese
>themselves some 800 years ago. Instead, it seems much of the ideas
>circulating in Southern Song crossed the sea and entered Japan
tkida. Japanese name.
>instead, wholesale, where it is still deeply ingrained in the minds
>and culture of Japanese society. How many Chinese today have even a
>vague sense of what Qian (Zen) Buddhism was about? its love of
>nature? its aesthetic qualities? its total "Chinese-ness" as a
>philosophy, a religion and an art? That Chinese-ness it seems has
>long been lost amongst the Chinese.
And how many Japanese care for Buddhism either let alone made any
study of it. Group activity in religious type festivals is important
to Japanese communities but they are quite happy to leave it to the
professionals (eg. shinto priests) to do the organizing and mumbo
jumbo with the community going along and having a good time. I
haven't come across a Japanese person one can get into any depth of
discussion on philosophy yet. As with everyone else everyone is
concerned about getting ahead in the modern world. The only people
concerned about the goodness of mankind thingies are dropouts and
hippies and you want to mix with them - the Hare Krishnans, Tibetan
monks, Branch Dravidans and TV evangilists? They your models of
anything except how to separate you from your money and make you feel
good about it (that is until you finally see the light)?
>
>Instead what the Chinese have now is HK Kungfu flicks, Shaolin Temple,
>food, notion of a humiliated nationality, peasant and mingong
>discrimination, zero nationalistic pride, a pessimistic view of the
>creativity and strength of the Chinese nationality,
Popular culture is far more powerful and profitable. The guys who get
rich pandering to this demand can then have the cultural pretensions
you crave for. Popular Culture must have many redeeming properties.
Even Hollywood is aping the kungfu stuff (Matrix) and ersatz
philosophy (Dark Side star wars philosophy.) A recent pop survey
revealed that Hollywood philosophy influences the beliefs of over 30
percent of the population. That's a better showing than many
religions. Popular culture has proved to be enduring. The 50s Rock
and Roll music for example are now valued collectables and a respected
art form. Same with many other pop culture fads. Your idea of high
culture is crumbling before this onslaught. In real life the majority
counts.
>a resigned sense
>that the Chinese can never get their act together, the belief that the
>Chinese's very own products are cheap etc, etc (ask Goldfinger)...
>Chinese culture now conveys a feeling of greasiness, oiliness..
>unclean but very flavored in an unelegant way.
The moment you use gelfinger to support any argument (on tastes) you
have lost all credibility. Even geldfinger never claimed that mantle.
>
>This is all very regretable, considering the potential of China's
>history and aesthetic past that can mobilize the population. Why is
>spitting a national pasttime for the Chinese? If adequate education
>is given to the Chinese people, and a keen sense of aestheticism
>nourished amongst the population (all of which can be obtained from
>the infinite reservoir of Chinese history and art), do you think the
>people would spit so much?
>
The regret is all on your part. We don't see anyone else losing a
moment's sleep over the subject othert than from staying up late
pirating the latest pop culture release.
>Chinese philosophy and art has traditionally embraced nature,
>meditative silence, and simple beauty in purity. If today's people
>are taught to embrace this, many of the ills in Chinese society today
>would be dissolved. Nationalism amongst the Chinese would become more
>genuine (thereby stronger), and more responsible.
What a lot of crap. If what you say is true then we wouldn't have all
those black tie concert going generous benefactor of the arts and
culture western CEOs stealing billions from their shareholders and
lying to their governments and the public.
On a very basic level the guy who needs medative silence to find
himself is very likely one who has a lot of turmoil in his personal
life from which he seeks to escape. Drop out and chill out sounds
about right. The guy who has his life in order and has his head
screwed right wants to live life to the fullest and that is
participation in the affairs of the world to the best of his
abilities.
Goldfinger
"klmok" <kl...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:3ec2ff96....@shawnews.ed.shawcable.net...
> tkida. Japanese name.
tkida is not a Japanese name as there is no "tki" syllable in Japanese.
Learn before you speak as you have been warned by many other people before.
> The moment you use gelfinger to support any argument (on tastes) you
> have lost all credibility. Even geldfinger never claimed that mantle.
Maybe he should quote you on taste for spending $2000 on a Sony Laserdisc
player and a Sony VCR that you never used.
Isn't this how taste is defined?
From klmok:
"I bought th top of the line SONY VCRs and Laser Disc players when they cost
more than $1000 each. To this day I never use the laser disc player for
more than 10 hours in the year and for the VCR, maybe 3
hours playback a week if I get lucky."
> On a very basic level the guy who needs medative silence to find
> himself is very likely one who has a lot of turmoil in his personal
> life from which he seeks to escape. Drop out and chill out sounds
> about right. The guy who has his life in order and has his head
> screwed right wants to live life to the fullest and that is
> participation in the affairs of the world to the best of his
> abilities.
Just a bunch of typical klmok anti Japanese hogwash sentiments.
Goldfinger
"tkida" <nau...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dae3a5da.03051...@posting.google.com...
> Chinese philosophy and art has traditionally embraced nature,
> meditative silence, and simple beauty in purity. If today's people
> are taught to embrace this, many of the ills in Chinese society today
> would be dissolved. Nationalism amongst the Chinese would become more
> genuine (thereby stronger), and more responsible.
After the Ming dynasty, China was ruled by a foreign power in the Qing
dynasty. Then for nearly the next hundred years, China underwent the
corrupted Nationalist rule, not to mention the tough 8 years of war with
Japan. The uprising of Communism didn't help things either. Nationalism
amongst Chinese has degenerated to a point of not true patriotism, just look
at the line up of the outside of the Canada and US embassies in Beijing for
proof. No waving a littel red book and posting with a handle of "lovechina"
are not true patriotism but bigotries.
What tears the country apart is the hypocrisies Communism preached to the
Chinese. They keep hearing how great China is but all they see is exactly
the opposite, espcially for those who have been outside of China for a
prolong period of time. Instead of facing the truth, they reinvent it the
Communist way. So they might have spent two years on a H1B visa to the US
or a landed immigrant visa to Canada, but once they landed, they'll say how
great China is comparing to US and Canada.
They cure to all these is simply, truth, for only truth can set you free.
klmok
wrote:
>> tkida. Japanese name.
>
>tkida is not a Japanese name as there is no "tki" syllable in Japanese.
tk ida.
>
>
>Maybe he should quote you on taste for spending $2000 on a Sony Laserdisc
>player and a Sony VCR that you never used.
>Isn't this how taste is defined?
>
1. Go back to primary school and learn how to count. $37 and >$3000
are a world apart. Remember what I said aboiut you running all over
the planet to find an excuse to try to win a ridiculous argument.
2. One good reason why I never cared for your worship the latest and
most expensive electronics toys as a measure of your manhood.
Goldfinger
> tk ida.
Wrong again. There is no "tk" syllable in Japanese as well. Tkida is
simply not a Japanese name. What? You are an expert in Japanese now?
You would be better just shut up and let everybody think that you are a fool
but you just have to open you mouth and dissipate all doubts.
> 1. Go back to primary school and learn how to count. $37 and >$3000
> are a world apart. Remember what I said aboiut you running all over
> the planet to find an excuse to try to win a ridiculous argument.
> 2. One good reason why I never cared for your worship the latest and
> most expensive electronics toys as a measure of your manhood.
I have a $300 DVD player from three years ago and you think this is the most
expensive electronic toys. I will never buy a $1000 player as measure of my
manhood. You certainly have done so and were quite proud of it.
tkida
> tk ida.
it's t. kida.. kida (木田) is surname.
you are right, japanese.
tkida
> and Roll music for example are now valued collectables and a respected
> art form. Same with many other pop culture fads. Your idea of high
> culture is crumbling before this onslaught. In real life the majority
> counts.
I think a society requires a healthy amount of "high culture" to keep
the rest in perspective. The Chinese have this, but it's dismissed.
The minority is equally important. I think what you propose is a
"happy mediocrity." You would be incredibly naive to think that
America in its essence is dominated by pop culture. Most of the top
tier universities in America are based upon a liberal arts (original
sources) curriculum. True it's a minority, but its existence is not
disputed and it stands as the pinnacle of American liberal values.
> >a resigned sense
> >that the Chinese can never get their act together, the belief that the
> >Chinese's very own products are cheap etc, etc (ask Goldfinger)...
> >Chinese culture now conveys a feeling of greasiness, oiliness..
> >unclean but very flavored in an unelegant way.
>
> The moment you use gelfinger to support any argument (on tastes) you
> have lost all credibility. Even geldfinger never claimed that mantle.
You missed my point here. I brought up Goldfinger as evidence that
such notions exist in the minds of some (and not small minority of)
Chinese. I in no way intended to say that Chinese culture is any of
the above. But that people like Goldfinger can achieve such notions
regarding his own ethnicity as result of the poor
education/introduction of such "high culture."
> The regret is all on your part. We don't see anyone else losing a
> moment's sleep over the subject othert than from staying up late
> pirating the latest pop culture release.
No, many Chinese college students I've come to known well have
expressed such concerns. The Chinese "high culture" is not getting
enough of its deserving attention. As result, you have a general
population incredibly materialistic and dismissive of its past.
Unlike American institutions, the few preservations of "high culture"
is publicly slandered and widely unknown (even in the most crude
form). Why must there be a purge after each dynastic change? (this
idea of dynastic purge is a myth btw... a myth that is becoming ever
the more so true as more people seem to accept it as actual)
> >Chinese philosophy and art has traditionally embraced nature,
> >meditative silence, and simple beauty in purity. If today's people
> >are taught to embrace this, many of the ills in Chinese society today
> >would be dissolved. Nationalism amongst the Chinese would become more
> >genuine (thereby stronger), and more responsible.
>
> What a lot of crap. If what you say is true then we wouldn't have all
> those black tie concert going generous benefactor of the arts and
> culture western CEOs stealing billions from their shareholders and
> lying to their governments and the public.
You obviously do not have a good understanding of western culture if
you think this is somehow an aberration from western liberalism. Also
I was not talking about western culture, but about the many beautiful
(BEAUTIFUL) pages of Chinese culture and art that can serve to give
the Chinese greater perspective, become more dimensional. Education
of such aescetics naturally develops a more responsible and optimistic
personality. The Chinese landscape, the language, the script...and
every essence.. becomes more *cherished*... (an example for the script
would be the education of calligraphy, not in technique but simply its
existence and styles). A clean sophistication. I suggest you check
out some of the paintings done by Ma Yuan (Bayen), Xia Gui, et al of
Southern Song China during the thirteenth century.
http://faculty-web.at.nwu.edu/art-history/fraser/b40-taken-out-of-circulation/F1041/F-1041-051.JPEG
Understand, I am not calling for indoctrination of the past (which has
been also a malaise among certain Chinese), but simply ACKNOWEDGEMENT!
The present is a different time, certainly, but nevertheless it
becomes more meaningful when you can identify the beautiful in the
past and adapt it so that society can be more perfectable.
> On a very basic level the guy who needs medative silence to find
> himself is very likely one who has a lot of turmoil in his personal
> life from which he seeks to escape. Drop out and chill out sounds
> about right. The guy who has his life in order and has his head
> screwed right wants to live life to the fullest and that is
> participation in the affairs of the world to the best of his
> abilities.
Again, you propose for man to be a simpleton. With no complications.
How can one participate in the affairs of the world when his world
view is simply the present and the material? he would have no
perspective to even begin his first step.
Simply put, I do not agree with your commments at all.
tmdbangzi
and the Japanese. The difference is that Chinese are always Chinese,
but Koreans and Japanese become bananas once getting in a white
country.
Heck, they become bananas even in their own country----just look at
the huge number of blonde Korean and Japanese youngsters!
"Goldfinger" <gol...@telus.net> wrote in message news:<z6Owa.760613$q9.1...@post-03.news.easynews.com>...
klmok
>
>Again, you propose for man to be a simpleton. With no complications.
>How can one participate in the affairs of the world when his world
>view is simply the present and the material? he would have no
>perspective to even begin his first step.
>
>Simply put, I do not agree with your commments at all.
Thank you for confirming that you are Japanese. I take some delight
in speculating who the writer is in a post and form a mental picture
of the person. Using one's real name or a shorter version of it
really helps in more ways than one. Particularly it makes one be more
careful of what one writes as we will like to stand behind our words.
My earlier rebuttal was not one of my better ones.
The point I was making is that people with "finer tastes" should not
look down upon popular culture in any form as unworthy. Or as an
impending sign that the world is falling apart. After all when a
large group of people find such art forms inspiring enough to follow
it and better still participate in its creation and evolution it must
have many good qualities. Jazz and Blues were the ramblings of the
negro slave decendants and social untouchables until they became
mainstream and are now recognized as genuine original American art
forms that have a much larger following than the traditional fine
performing arts. The 10 cent comic books that I used to read for free
at the corner store are now art form collectibles that people put in
protective sleeves.
I digresss. The high forms of art have survived for centuries and
will continue to do so for works of real talent transcend the times.
No pop culture will displace it. Chinese art is particular as there
was little distinction in Chinese art forms between pure art and the
crafts. As craftsmen they produced their works for popular tastes
and not art for arts sake. "Popular" means everyone then and now.
While we know the names of a few masters by and large the beautiful
objet d'art were the works of craftsmen from the time immemorial to
the present. Who are we to say that they are not artists of the
highest order.
Then come the question of perception. Have modern Chinese lost their
appreciation of Chinese art? In an average present day Chinese home
the furnishings is western style. These objet d'art should fit in
with the house decor and you will find a few choice ones here and
there as accent pieces, never enough to overwhelm the far more
comfortable and appropriate western furniture. Most of use we know
what good Chinese art is but can rarely afford them . But we had never
lost our appreciation of fine Chinese art.
There must be something in our genes that make us recognize truly
great art for even as a child I had always found traditional Chinese
art very interesting and inspiring as did my barely literate grandma
and many like her. And she, without any schooling, could describe all
the symbolisms, geographical details and much else that was contained
in , as you descibed, a minimalist painting. You will be surprised
how quickly grandmas like her dismiss the tacky imitations that make
it to the Chinatown art exhibitions and mainstream art galleries
these days. More amusingly how devastatingly they demolish the
experimental art forms that modern Chinese artists attempt to develop
from traditional Chinese art forms.
To answer your concern the appreciation of great Chinese art by
mainstream Chinese is alive and well. Hold a traditional (ie not
experimental) Chinese art exhibition in town, especially something
from the mainland, and you will find them packed with Chinese from
all walks of life including uneducated "just off the boat" grandmas
and grandpas. Listen closely to their comments and you will be
surpirsed at how much they know and how much they can relate to the
artists' inspirations and intents. Not as something they learnt in
art classes but as genuinely heartfelt emotions. I always found
their comments as interesting and inspiring as the exhibits
themsleves.
To answer your other question. No we don't take time to contemplate
what this all means. This is another way of saying we don't
philosophize about the meaning of art. Never had the need to.
Goldfinger
> Thank you for confirming that you are Japanese. I take some delight
> in speculating who the writer is in a post and form a mental picture
> of the person.
You have no way of knowing if the guy is Japanese from a name like tkida.
Give up.
Goldfinger
> You missed my point here. I brought up Goldfinger as evidence that
> such notions exist in the minds of some (and not small minority of)
> Chinese. I in no way intended to say that Chinese culture is any of
> the above. But that people like Goldfinger can achieve such notions
> regarding his own ethnicity as result of the poor
> education/introduction of such "high culture."
I am not a pretentious person relying on my understanding of one "high
culture" or the other to differentiate myself from the others.
How many times have you heard a person say they need to upgrade their PC to
Windows 2009? And if you ask what they need for Windows 2009, they say web
browsing and emailing.
And some people brag about having a progressive scan DVD player without
having a HDTV. This is a much more complex society than before that no one
can understand a fraction of what's going on.
So it is important to understand a little bit of everything just to keep the
conversation going but it's equally, if not more, important to understand a
lot of those few things that you like and treasure. The later is especially
important because smart people know their limits but mediocre people think
that they know a lot about everything.
klmok
wrote:
>
=====================================================
On 16 May 2003 00:55:06 -0700, nau...@yahoo.com (tkida) wrote:
>kl...@shaw.ca (klmok) wrote in message
>> tk ida.
>
>it's t. kida.. kida (木田) is surname.
>
>you are right, japanese.
====================================================
Geldfinger can't count. Now he lets on he can't read too.
In another post he confirms that he can't see beyond his teeny world
of electronic toys either. The only way he can make a point in any
argument is to say how persuavive an expensive piece of wires and
chips is when used it is to bash someone one over the head with.
Goldfinger
====================================================
>
> Geldfinger can't count. Now he lets on he can't read too.
>
> In another post he confirms that he can't see beyond his teeny world
> of electronic toys either. The only way he can make a point in any
> argument is to say how persuavive an expensive piece of wires and
> chips is when used it is to bash someone one over the head with.
Speak for yourself, the $1000 Sony VCR owner who never used the machine for
much. Sorry, you give me this one and I'll keep reposting it as long as you
keep putting spin on the subject.
klmok
wrote:
>
>Speak for yourself, the $1000 Sony VCR owner who never used the machine for
>much. Sorry, you give me this one and I'll keep reposting it as long as you
>keep putting spin on the subject.
>
>From klmok:
>"I bought th top of the line SONY VCRs and Laser Disc players when they
>cost more than $1000 each. To this day I never use the laser disc
>player for more than 10 hours in the year and for the VCR, maybe 3
>hours playback a week if I get lucky."
>
What's your point?
There are better things to do in life than to watch every movie and
constantly brag about expensive machines. Those machines were for my
teenage son when he was at that age when such things mattered. That
was more than 15 years ago. He had since graduated and moved on and
out. He is a star engineer in a Fortune 100 tech company. Neither of
us have the time or inclination to drool over expensive electronic
toys or discuss Holllywood.. On the other hand if there is an
interesting technical problem we get excited.
You are more than 30 years old and think like you are still in junior
high. Try growing up.
Goldfinger
>
> What's your point?
The point is I bought a $300 DVD player 3 years ago and you say that was
expensive. But you spend $2000 buying a VCR and some crap that you never
used, that makes you a hyprocrite by its very definition.
> There are better things to do in life than to watch every movie and
> constantly brag about expensive machines. Those machines were for my
> teenage son when he was at that age when such things mattered. That
> was more than 15 years ago. He had since graduated and moved on and
> out. He is a star engineer in a Fortune 100 tech company. Neither of
> us have the time or inclination to drool over expensive electronic
> toys or discuss Holllywood.. On the other hand if there is an
> interesting technical problem we get excited.
Interesting technical problem like putting grills on a rear projection TV?
That's very exciting new technology. You son is not a star engineer but
just a normal salaryman. Does he still work for CISCO? It's a small world
between Calgary and Edmonton, and you will not bring your family into the
discussion unneccesarily if you are wise.
> You are more than 30 years old and think like you are still in junior
> high. Try growing up.
I grew up wholesomely, thank you. At least no one has told me not to post
in a newsgroup or read up on a subject like you were told time and time
again. Try to learn from your mistake, it's good for you. And gardening is
much better than the beating you took from usenet for an old man like you.
Fong-Kai Wang
> > >that the Chinese can never get their act together, the belief that the
> > >Chinese's very own products are cheap etc, etc (ask Goldfinger)...
> > >Chinese culture now conveys a feeling of greasiness, oiliness..
> > >unclean but very flavored in an unelegant way.
> >
> > The moment you use gelfinger to support any argument (on tastes) you
> > have lost all credibility. Even geldfinger never claimed that mantle.
>
> You missed my point here. I brought up Goldfinger as evidence that
> such notions exist in the minds of some (and not small minority of)
> Chinese. I in no way intended to say that Chinese culture is any of
> the above. But that people like Goldfinger can achieve such notions
> regarding his own ethnicity as result of the poor
> education/introduction of such "high culture."
I don't think Goldfinger's view truly support your point. Goldfinger's
'dislike' of China and mainland chinese maybe more of careless use of
words. I believe what GF dislike is CCP and their failure to bring
China to a level that GF finds acceptable. Basically, based on current
trend China is going it'll be another 20 years before China reach to a
level that satisfy GF's high standard (of today).
Although I disagree with many things GF had said, I don't find him
anti-China or anti-Chinese at all. He's anti-CCP, I know that.
>
> > The regret is all on your part. We don't see anyone else losing a
> > moment's sleep over the subject othert than from staying up late
> > pirating the latest pop culture release.
>
> No, many Chinese college students I've come to known well have
> expressed such concerns. The Chinese "high culture" is not getting
> enough of its deserving attention. As result, you have a general
> population incredibly materialistic and dismissive of its past.
> Unlike American institutions, the few preservations of "high culture"
> is publicly slandered and widely unknown (even in the most crude
> form). Why must there be a purge after each dynastic change? (this
> idea of dynastic purge is a myth btw... a myth that is becoming ever
> the more so true as more people seem to accept it as actual)
Go study cultural revolution. I believe there's some remnant effect in
China.
Chinese civilization and culture survived so long because they move
on. When time comes to acknowledge, they'll acknowledge. For now, I
think Chinese are more interested in catching up to the west. They'll
start out by mimicking, then understand, then modify and produce their
own stuff. Takes time.
Goldfinger
"Fong-Kai Wang" <fong...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:496c7359.03051...@posting.google.com...
> Although I disagree with many things GF had said, I don't find him
> anti-China or anti-Chinese at all. He's anti-CCP, I know that.
That's good observation. Many people just instantly equate anti-CCP with
anti-Chinese.
klmok
wrote:
>>
>> What's your point?
>
>The point is I bought a $300 DVD player 3 years ago and you say that was
>expensive. But you spend $2000 buying a VCR and some crap that you never
>used, that makes you a hyprocrite by its very definition.
Yup. You have poor reading comprehension. That thread was el cheapo
APEX DVDs was as good as more expensive models. There was never any
mention of what you bought nor would I care.
>
> you will not bring your family into the
>discussion
Hey for once I agree with you.
>
anakin
> has traditionally been focused on the theme of nature. The aesthetics
> of Chinese art (particularly the minimalism of Southern Song dynasty
> paintings) inspires a love for nature, a love for things that are
> beautiful at its base. It's a kind of clean and simple beauty that
> should have defined the country. But instead, all this is lost. No
> Chinese seems to care for the simple masterpieces made by the Chinese
> themselves some 800 years ago. Instead, it seems much of the ideas
> circulating in Southern Song crossed the sea and entered Japan
> instead, wholesale, where it is still deeply ingrained in the minds
> and culture of Japanese society. How many Chinese today have even a
> vague sense of what Qian (Zen) Buddhism was about? its love of
> nature? its aesthetic qualities? its total "Chinese-ness" as a
> philosophy, a religion and an art? That Chinese-ness it seems has
> long been lost amongst the Chinese.
>
S. Song Court was the apogee of chinese civilization, but not the
strongest in military around the first millennium. unfortunately,
there was another stronger and deadly opponent--Mongolian. In Song
dynasty, both South and North, had quite "democratic" civil system,
maybe than other dynasties or even countries in world. it would be a
quite long list to describe how an opulent society Song was, and there
are no doubts that its arts prospered as well. i am not invoking a
cultural jingoism here, but it is fair to claim that in 1000 A.D.,
chinese paiting had achieved to the stage of the amalgam of human
being and nature, and this could only be marginally managed later by
picaso in his arts. western arts thrived on its gist of effort to
re-create a same world on the canvass, but no matter how many
caravagio there would have been, its results would not be as near
'realistic' as a photo of the scene.
> Instead what the Chinese have now is HK Kungfu flicks, Shaolin Temple,
> food, notion of a humiliated nationality, peasant and mingong
> discrimination, zero nationalistic pride, a pessimistic view of the
> creativity and strength of the Chinese nationality, a resigned sense
> that the Chinese can never get their act together, the belief that the
> Chinese's very own products are cheap etc, etc (ask Goldfinger)...
> Chinese culture now conveys a feeling of greasiness, oiliness..
> unclean but very flavored in an unelegant way.
>
it is a pity that chinese culture exists across the world as martial
arts and food. think about it, a 5000+ years of civilization,
completely different from that in western, could ever present her to
us in a pround way and is still tenaciously standing to wait its
people's appreciation. unfortuantely, ever since Yuan Court, its
people were constantly thrown into countless wars and foreign exploit.
it is very sad indeed.
> This is all very regretable, considering the potential of China's
> history and aesthetic past that can mobilize the population. Why is
> spitting a national pasttime for the Chinese? If adequate education
> is given to the Chinese people, and a keen sense of aestheticism
> nourished amongst the population (all of which can be obtained from
> the infinite reservoir of Chinese history and art), do you think the
> people would spit so much?
>
> Chinese philosophy and art has traditionally embraced nature,
> meditative silence, and simple beauty in purity. If today's people
> are taught to embrace this, many of the ills in Chinese society today
> would be dissolved. Nationalism amongst the Chinese would become more
> genuine (thereby stronger), and more responsible.
with a material side of living being accomplished, i think we will
witness another renaissance, fermenting now and sprouting soon in that
ancient land, no doubt about it. under a more relaxed political
atmosphere, people are starting to pay much attention on who they
were, what they are, and where they are going. and their effort will
benefit, without any doubts, the futher generations ahead. just take a
brief history of later chinese civilization struggle, no time did not
chinese, as a people, lose its desire to stand up again, without
countless fights and with loss of millions of its people. in addition,
hisotry also proved that chinese are a people more willing to learn
from others and ingratiated new cultures with itself.
no matter how much bigotry there might be outthere against chinese
civilization, she is still gracely standing with us and patiently
waiting its descendts to reach her halcyon days. there is no doubts
about even now that her contribution to humanity far reaches beyond
where those bigots can even sense.
klmok
wrote:
That's a great improvement from your persona of just two years ago?
In many posts of that era you cursed Chinese immigrants, especially
those from the mainland, as an embarrassment to you, something you
still complain about now and then. Like China immigrants should be
prohibited and even kicked out of the country. In one unguarded
moment you said they wouldn't be so bad except that you are Chinese
yourself. Duh? However, these "Chinese genes " of yours must have
erupted when you boasted that you had "borrrowed" a friend's bank
passbook as an easy trick to prove that you had enough funds to
register for the next academic year.
Anti-CCP? You must be so politically astute that you equate cheap
China made DVDs as a plot engineered by the evil CCP to (.....do
what?). Very useful Pavlovian buzzword. Just mention DVD and GF
gets all worked up.
ya...@yaya.com
Actually, many people who are anti-Chinese hide behind the banner of anti-CCP.
yaya
gol...@telus.net
>Yup. You have poor reading comprehension. That thread was el cheapo
>APEX DVDs was as good as more expensive models. There was never any
>mention of what you bought nor would I care.
Knowledglbe posters from the hi-fi forums had already refuted this
argument. However, you degenerated the discussion into a personal
attack of me buying a $300 DVD player 3 years ago. Give me a break!
Your $1000 Sony VCR from a decade ago was eqivalent to at least a
$1500 unit today, what do you make of that?
>Hey for once I agree with you.
You are lucky 'cause even though I disagree with you, I won't use your
family to attack you. But you might one day run into other nasty
posters and get hurt unneccessarily. I'm warning you out of the
kindness of my heart.
Ciao, have a nice long weekend.
gol...@telus.net
>Actually, many people who are anti-Chinese hide behind the banner of anti-CCP.
You are so CCP. Many people this, certain people that, a blanket
statement like this is a powerful tool used often by the CCP to
supress freedom of speech and persecute dissidents. You've learned it
so well, congrat!
ya...@yaya.com
Please say something intelligent / factual if you want me to reply, and not
prate trite epithets.
yaya
klmok
>You are lucky 'cause even though I disagree with you, I won't use your
>family to attack you. But you might one day run into other nasty
>posters and get hurt unneccessarily. I'm warning you out of the
>kindness of my heart.
>
Wow all that anger over a 3 year old $300 DVD. Should be hot enough
to light up all the LEDs on the front panel. At the rate geldfinger
is going we shall see this headline story soon.
Taiwan born Calgary banana bashes head of girlfriend who critized his
DVD. The perpetrator of the bizarre incident wasn't hard to identify
for among a full set of hand prints on the crumbled DVD cover one
finger had an odd sticky brownish yellow stain. Editorial policy
prevents speculating where that finger had been.
The altercation was to prove that the more expensive Japanese brand
with its solid construction, heavier transformer and advanced crunch
resistance performance was superior to the flimsy made-in-China DVD.
"That darn CCP made stuff just falls apart in your hands not on the
head," he sneered and regretted that he didn't pick the Japanese
model in the first place. However, that might just prove to be his
salvation for, thus forwarned , the girlfriend was able to deflect the
second coming of the Japanese DVD and therefore escape serious injury.
"There goes a beautiful relationship" were his parting words as he was
led away in tears But that left everyone wondering if he was
referring to the demise of his beloved DVDs or to just his beloved
(without the DVD extension.)
gol...@telus.net
My replies are self adjusted to the intelligence level of the reader.
I don't want to appear to be pretentious because of your sub par
mental capacity.
K. Chang
"China's Next Cultural Revolution." It tells of a renaissance and
enlightenment among the Chinese today to dig deep down into their
history and culture. What TIME calls the "Next Aesthetic Great Leap"
is exactly what you have in mind. Go into the past, get ideas, refine
traditions, and produce clean, sophisticated elegance. The past
becomes valuable. Transform the stereotypes of "Made in China" and
thereby transform the centuries old stereotype of China. Regain and
polish the positive connotations of the Middle Kingdom, Cathay, and
Han. Progress with a solid and confident foundation. Teach the
infinite expanses of Chinese history, arts, culture so that one's love
for China need not be taught or enforced.
Here is a link to the TIME special:
http://www.time.com/time/asia/features/china_cul_rev/
nau...@yahoo.com (tkida) wrote in message
> There should be more aesthetic education in China today. Chinese art
> has traditionally been focused on the theme of nature. The aesthetics
> of Chinese art (particularly the minimalism of Southern Song dynasty
> paintings) inspires a love for nature, a love for things that are
> beautiful at its base. It's a kind of clean and simple beauty that
> should have defined the country. But instead, all this is lost. No
> Chinese seems to care for the simple masterpieces made by the Chinese
> themselves some 800 years ago. Instead, it seems much of the ideas
> circulating in Southern Song crossed the sea and entered Japan
> instead, wholesale, where it is still deeply ingrained in the minds
> and culture of Japanese society. How many Chinese today have even a
> vague sense of what Qian (Zen) Buddhism was about? its love of
> nature? its aesthetic qualities? its total "Chinese-ness" as a
> philosophy, a religion and an art? That Chinese-ness it seems has
> long been lost amongst the Chinese.
>
> Instead what the Chinese have now is HK Kungfu flicks, Shaolin Temple,
> food, notion of a humiliated nationality, peasant and mingong
> discrimination, zero nationalistic pride, a pessimistic view of the
> creativity and strength of the Chinese nationality, a resigned sense
> that the Chinese can never get their act together, the belief that the
> Chinese's very own products are cheap etc, etc (ask Goldfinger)...
> Chinese culture now conveys a feeling of greasiness, oiliness..
> unclean but very flavored in an unelegant way.
>
> This is all very regretable, considering the potential of China's
> history and aesthetic past that can mobilize the population. Why is
> spitting a national pasttime for the Chinese? If adequate education
> is given to the Chinese people, and a keen sense of aestheticism
> nourished amongst the population (all of which can be obtained from
> the infinite reservoir of Chinese history and art), do you think the
> people would spit so much?
>
> Chinese philosophy and art has traditionally embraced nature,
> meditative silence, and simple beauty in purity. If today's people
> are taught to embrace this, many of the ills in Chinese society today
> would be dissolved. Nationalism amongst the Chinese would become more
> genuine (thereby stronger), and more responsible.
and also:
Teddy Wood
> On Fri, 16 May 2003 19:22:07 GMT, "Goldfinger" <gol...@telus.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >Speak for yourself, the $1000 Sony VCR owner who never used the machine for
> >much. Sorry, you give me this one and I'll keep reposting it as long as you
> >keep putting spin on the subject.
> >
> >From klmok:
> >"I bought th top of the line SONY VCRs and Laser Disc players when they
> >cost more than $1000 each. To this day I never use the laser disc
> >player for more than 10 hours in the year and for the VCR, maybe 3
> >hours playback a week if I get lucky."
> >
>
> There are better things to do in life than to watch every movie and
> constantly brag about expensive machines. Those machines were for my
> teenage son when he was at that age when such things mattered. That
> was more than 15 years ago. He had since graduated and moved on and
> out. He is a star engineer in a Fortune 100 tech company. Neither of
> us have the time or inclination to drool over expensive electronic
> toys or discuss Holllywood.. On the other hand if there is an
> interesting technical problem we get excited.
>
> You are more than 30 years old and think like you are still in junior
> high. Try growing up.
----------------------------------------
that is true. I bought a very expensive photoprinter in 1998 and then
again another one in 2001. there were all wide format scanner. I
printed less than 10 on each, and have not used it again. I wanted to
as I have always aspired to be a photographer, but time does not
allow. May be one day I will have the chance but for now the cartride
is probably clotted and no longer usable. When goldfinger eventually
touches some gold, he would understand that this is common occurence
for older people who have acquired a little material wealth.
Hoklo Taiwanese
"tmdbangzi" <zho...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d52a192f.03051...@posting.google.com...
> Yes, many Chinese want to go abroad. But, the same is with the Koreans
> and the Japanese. The difference is that Chinese are always Chinese,
> but Koreans and Japanese become bananas once getting in a white
> country.
>
> Heck, they become bananas even in their own country----just look at
> the huge number of blonde Korean and Japanese youngsters!
but look at the taiwanese! oops, taiwanese aren't chinese.
Hoklo Taiwanese
the way these chinese people dress.
it seems china's future can only have hope when they adopt some forms of
western civilization.
screw TIMES.
"K. Chang" <zen...@c4.com> wrote in message
news:1ffee964.03051...@posting.google.com...
tmdbangzi
> "tmdbangzi" <zho...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:d52a192f.03051...@posting.google.com...
> > Yes, many Chinese want to go abroad. But, the same is with the Koreans
> > and the Japanese. The difference is that Chinese are always Chinese,
> > but Koreans and Japanese become bananas once getting in a white
> > country.
> >
> > Heck, they become bananas even in their own country----just look at
> > the huge number of blonde Korean and Japanese youngsters!
>
> but look at the taiwanese! oops, taiwanese aren't chinese.
>
>
Some taiwanese are not even taiwanese. for example, Lee denghui is a Japanese.
klmok
> Lee denghui is a Japanese.
That's a Japanese name?
tkida
> On 17 May 2003 23:12:15 -0700, zho...@yahoo.com (tmdbangzi) wrote:
>
>
> > Lee denghui is a Japanese.
>
> That's a Japanese name?
Lee Teng-Hui's Japanese name is Iwasato Masao
(岩里政男). He is not really Japanese, he
changed it to Mr. Iwasato during the 40's. He is a genuine Hanjian as
he publicly defends fighting on the Japanese side during WWII. He to
this day still signs his diaries with this name (not to mention the
diary being written in Japanese). It's people like him that make
genuine friendship between Chinese and Japanese really difficult. The
despicable self-loathing of those who appear pro-Japanese turns off
the general Chinese population so much that they become suspicious and
highly opposed to Japanese society and culture, even some of the
positive aspects that are worth discussing.
klmok
Thank you for the factoid. I have no opinion on Mr. Lee's choice of
identity although it does appear very odd that he would chose to pass
himself off as Japanese in name and in ethnicity.
ts even odder that his ward would elect him to a major political
office on that stand. I don't think Lee's oddity is a cause of
friction between China and Japan as most Chinese have enough domestic
issues to concern themselves with. Japanese events, past or
present, have at best a very marginal impact on the minds of ordinary
Chinese these days. That said it is a gruesome image to picture an
ethnic Chinese (or an ethnic Indian) so anxious to pass himself off
as Japanese (or a caucasian) because he so badly want to be one. The
image is a lost soul who so hates his own brithright and therefore
himself as to confuse that with political and social systems.
gol...@telus.net
>Lee Teng-Hui's Japanese name is Iwasato Masao
>(岩里政男). He is not really Japanese, he
>changed it to Mr. Iwasato during the 40's. He is a genuine Hanjian as
>he publicly defends fighting on the Japanese side during WWII. He to
>this day still signs his diaries with this name (not to mention the
>diary being written in Japanese). It's people like him that make
>genuine friendship between Chinese and Japanese really difficult. The
>despicable self-loathing of those who appear pro-Japanese turns off
>the general Chinese population so much that they become suspicious and
>highly opposed to Japanese society and culture, even some of the
>positive aspects that are worth discussing.
To say LTH is a Hanjian would actually be a compliment to him. At
least a Hanjian should have some principles he abides by. But LTH had
been a loyal Communist, a loyal Japanese, a loyal KMT and now a loyal
TI all at once, faster than anyone could keep track of.
He represents the lowest form of human existence and if the CCP sends
some special ops to kill him, they might be gaining some supports in
Taiwan now.
Hoklo Taiwanese
had sex with more than one man in other words.
"klmok" <kl...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:3ec87657....@shawnews.ed.shawcable.net...
Hoklo Taiwanese
<gol...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:l3ugcvs1acsc9q5qp...@4ax.com...
this old hag doesn't have too many years left to live anyway.
> Taiwan now.
ya...@yaya.com
Pretentious? Don't worry, that's beyond your mental capacity. Guess
you still don't realize that the only thing you have ever "appeared to be"
is a dumbarse.
yaya
gol...@telus.net
>> My replies are self adjusted to the intelligence level of the reader.
>> I don't want to appear to be pretentious because of your sub par
>> mental capacity.
>
>Pretentious? Don't worry, that's beyond your mental capacity. Guess
>you still don't realize that the only thing you have ever "appeared to be"
>is a dumbarse.
Until you have learned how to post anything other than the CCP
playbook, your posts are not worth replying.
gol...@telus.net
wrote:
>this old hag doesn't have too many years left to live anyway.
Which is a pity.
I hope the government would allow his grave for public visits, at
least people can spit on his grave to show him the respect he
deserves.
ya...@yaya.com
Until you have recognized that you are a dumbarse, a dumbarse you shall
remain.
Fong-Kai Wang
True, I've met quite a few of those. But my impression is that most of
the type you're talking about will start off something like "This is
not directed towards Chinese people" or "I'm not against Chinese", so
and so political correct statement, and then bash the crap out of
Chinese with issues that has nothing to do with CCP.
ya...@yaya.com
Point taken.
And then there are those dumbarses who start labelling people (who kicked
their arses in an argument) as "CCP" even though they are absolutely clueless
where those people are actually from.
yaya