Olmec and Shang
Nickel
America.
In China, there are legends about the Holy Mountain in the east, gold and
medicine that can cure anything.
Look at the arts and culture of Shang dynasty, it is easy to think that they
must have reached America.
How is Olmec and Shang related?
http://www.sinorama.com.tw/en/8605/605006e1.html
How did Shang people reach America and why?
Shang people were very good in sailing, and they use sea shell as
currencies, the shell of sea turtle to forecast the future, and they love
jade very much too.
After their dynasty was replaced by the Zhou dyanasty, the upper class and
armies who refused to be ruled by Zhou left their country, since the land
was occupied by the Zhou armies, the only way to leave is by sea. The warm
South Pacific is the best way to go, and that explain why the culture near
central America is the highest.
trail...@my-deja.com
The greatest connection between ancient America (pre-Olmec) and China,
exists as the symbol of the tetragram (the over and underlined four),
which upside down is the Chinese numeral five. From this Asian point of
view, the 5 (as well as the smaller 2) exists on the right side of the
symbol. Cordially, Bob
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
cwin...@kiwi.dep.anl.gov
You are right there is a relationship between the Shang and Olmecs.
The ancestors of the Shang people and Olmec people were Mande and
Dravidian speaking people. As a result the Shang and Olmec share many
similarities in culture and iconography. See the following Website for
information
In the early Chinese literature these Blacks were called Li min, Qiang
and Yueh.
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bay/7051/blshang.htm
The Dravidians and Mande formerly lived in the proto-Sahara or
middle Africa. From here these people began to migrate out of middle
Africa after 3000 BC to settle parts of Asia and mesopotamia. The first
civilization of China was called Xia/Hsia. This civilization was founded
by the Mande speakers. See the following site:
http://homepages.luc.edu/~cwinter/xia.htm
The next civilization was called Shang. The Shang civilization was
founded by the Dravidian speaking people. You can read about the history
of the Dravidians in China at the following sites:
http://homepages.luc.edu/~cwinter/blshang2.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bay/7051/DRAVIDIANS.html
As the Hua, or contemporary Chinese people expanded into China the
Dravidian and Mande speaking people began to migrate out of northern
China into Yunnan and southern China. From here the Dravidian people
began to move into Southeast Asia. From Southeast Asia the Dravidian
people were forced back into India where they are known today as the
Tamil speaking Dravidians.
The Mande and Dravidian speaking people in Southern China also
migrated to the Pacific Islands.
See the following site:
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bay/7051/pac1.htm
Because the founders of Xia and Shang China, and the Olmecs were
Proto-Mande and Proto-Dravidian speakers it is only natural that they
would share many culture features. For example, among these people
felines and dragons(serpents and etc.) are important parts of their
mytholody. In addition, there was a specialzed cult which indoctrinated
children in the cultural ways of the Mande. As a result, we find in
Mexico that the Olmec or Xi people frequently depict felines (the
janguar) and serpents in their iconography. In addition there is every
indication that the Olmec people possessed religious rituals aimed
specifically at the children.
In summary, the Olmec and Shang share many similarities because
their ancestors originated in the Proto-Sahara. Later they migrated to
China and the Americas.
C.A. Winters
Nickel
However, I think using language to determine the people may has some
problems.
Chinese, Japanese and Korean culture have been deeply affected by Buddism,
and there were many monks went to India to learnt their languages in order
to translate the classics of Buddism, will the relationship between those
languages related to those monks and Buddism classics?
Also since Xia and Shang had been a huge empire, the people who wanted to
trade with Xia and Shang had to learn their languages, just like people
today leaning English. Will it be possible that those language spreading is
due to trading needs instead of migration?
<cwin...@kiwi.dep.anl.gov> źśźgŠóślĽó news:94q4cj$511$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
trail...@my-deja.com
"Nickel" <nicke...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Thank you very much, I have been looking for those material for long.
>
> However, I think using language to determine the people may has some
> problems.
>
> Chinese, Japanese and Korean culture have been deeply affected by
Buddism,
> and there were many monks went to India to learnt their languages in
order
> to translate the classics of Buddism, will the relationship between
those
> languages related to those monks and Buddism classics?
>
> Also since Xia and Shang had been a huge empire, the people who
wanted to
> trade with Xia and Shang had to learn their languages, just like
people
> today leaning English. Will it be possible that those language
spreading is
> due to trading needs instead of migration?
>
While you make an excellent point concerning "spoken" language and
trade, which would include story and myth; I doubt that the obvious
connections between "written" language can be dismissed. For instance,
it is my understanding that the contemporary experts believe that the
Chinese, Korean, and Japanese culture and language developed
separately. Yet, written language attestments to the contrary do exist,
such as the ideas and symbols of the sun and the moon (which I contend
are versions of the english alpha cursive, and alpha majuscule
letters), which when written together, mean tomorrow. Bob
Nickel
<trail...@my-deja.com> źśźgŠóślĽó news:94s2l1$ofa$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Hi Nickel,
> While you make an excellent point concerning "spoken" language and
> trade, which would include story and myth; I doubt that the obvious
> connections between "written" language can be dismissed. For instance,
> it is my understanding that the contemporary experts believe that the
> Chinese, Korean, and Japanese culture and language developed
> separately. Yet, written language attestments to the contrary do exist,
> such as the ideas and symbols of the sun and the moon (which I contend
> are versions of the english alpha cursive, and alpha majuscule
> letters), which when written together, mean tomorrow. Bob
Dear Trailmaker,
I don't know which contemporary experts believe that the Chinese, Korean,
and Japanese culture and language developed separately.
May be before they made contact they were developed separately. However,
since Tang dyanasty, they have been closely related. Hanji, Buddism,
Confucism, Poems, etc. The direction is not one way, sometimes, Chinese
learnt from Korea and Japan too.
Many Indian, Singaporean speak English, can we suggest that there are
migration from America to Singapore to India?
Sorry I don't quite understand what you mean. Anyway, it is my pleasure to
discuss Chinese character with you.
You are right that when the sun and the moon written together, it can mean
tomorrow, also it can mean bright.
When the sky become bright, it is tomorrow.
Nickel
cwin...@kiwi.dep.anl.gov
>
> However, I think using language to determine the people may has some
> problems.
>
> Chinese, Japanese and Korean culture have been deeply affected by
Buddism,
> and there were many monks went to India to learnt their languages in
order
> to translate the classics of Buddism, will the relationship between
those
> languages related to those monks and Buddism classics?
This would be a valid point except for the fact that the Chinese have a
long literate history. As a result we have access to a number of Chinese
text written before the introduction of Buddism into China. As a result,
linguistic relationships between the Chinese and the Dravidian and
Mande languages would not be due to Buddism, which is an elite religion.
The traditionsal religion of China was Confusionism and Toaism.
>
> Also since Xia and Shang had been a huge empire, the people who wanted
to
> trade with Xia and Shang had to learn their languages, just like
people
> today leaning English. Will it be possible that those language
spreading is
> due to trading needs instead of migration?
You can not ignore this possibility, but since the Hua ( the name
for the ancient Chinese) admit in the ancient literature that the early
emperors of Xia and Shang were blacks: Li Min, we can assume that the
linguistic relationship between these languages would be the result of
early biligualism and changes in the vocabulary items of Chinese over
time.
Throughout the history of China various groups have conquered
the empire and made their language the dominant language of China. As
a result the main language of China ahs changed. Moreover, the
Chinese spoken during Shang and Xia times was different from the
Chinese spoken at later points in the history of China.
You will discover, that when you study Chinese their is no one
"Chinese" language. Most native Chinese speak Cantonese. To
provide for great government in China the Chinese invented
Mandarin Chinese. It is in Mandarin that all Chinese learn to write.
As a result, Mandarin Chinese, for example is mainly a literate /
written language used to unify the Chinese people.
C.A. Winters
>
> <cwin...@kiwi.dep.anl.gov> 撰寫於郵件
lc...@nospam.lava.net
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Courtyard/1535/cha_pu.html. This is
copywritten work and permission must be secured for its use.
In soc.culture.china Nickel <nicke...@my-deja.com> wrote:
: Obviously, there must be some relationship between China and Ancient
: America.
There is no relationship between ancient China and ancient America, as
you mention below.
: In China, there are legends about the Holy Mountain in the east, gold and
: medicine that can cure anything.
A lot of these legends were created when a mixing of cultures, between
East and West occurred. There were no such writings in ancient China.
: Look at the arts and culture of Shang dynasty, it is easy to think that they
: must have reached America.
The arts of the Shang, though, do resemble the arts found in the
Americas, only because these people migrated eastward at about the same
time. The migration was called the river of Hiddekel and mention of
this occurs in the Book of Genesis in the Holy Scriptures.
: How is Olmec and Shang related?
They are not related in the way you mention!
: http://www.sinorama.com.tw/en/8605/605006e1.html
: How did Shang people reach America and why?
They did not!
: Shang people were very good in sailing,
This is merely a theory. Ancient Chinese records do not indicate that
the Shang travelled to America and they were not a sailing people.
: and they use sea shell as
: currencies, the shell of sea turtle to forecast the future, and they love
: jade very much too.
: After their dynasty was replaced by the Zhou dyanasty, the upper class and
: armies who refused to be ruled by Zhou left their country, since the land
: was occupied by the Zhou armies, the only way to leave is by sea. The warm
: South Pacific is the best way to go, and that explain why the culture near
: central America is the highest.
The upper class was either integrated into the Zhou Dynasty or remained
in China. Examine our genealogy records to see for yourself. We, my
family, are descendants of both ancient tribes.
--
Lester D. K. Chow and Associates, International Political Consultants
and Conflict Resolution Specialists. http://lchow.webvis.net/temp.html
Official representative for China's Imperial family, for those members
who reside abroad in the United States of America.
lc...@nospam.lava.net
: In article <94ojvs$r6...@imsp212.netvigator.com>,
The number 5 as used in China comes from the Chou Dynasty of ancient
times and not the Shang Dynasty.
: Sent via Deja.com
: http://www.deja.com/
lc...@nospam.lava.net
: You are right there is a relationship between the Shang and Olmecs.
: http://homepages.luc.edu/~cwinter/blshang2.htm
: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bay/7051/DRAVIDIANS.html
Because of bad and faulty history like the above many Indians have
migrated into Southeast Asia, Fiji, and the Philippines thinking that
they would be joining up with ancient kinsmen and the resulting efforts
have been met with racial and ethnic violence and disruptions of native
societies. This, above, is a bad and faulty theory of the Whites,
which has caused much disruptions in the above countries.
: Because the founders of Xia and Shang China, and the Olmecs were
: Proto-Mande and Proto-Dravidian speakers it is only natural that they
: would share many culture features. For example, among these people
: felines and dragons(serpents and etc.) are important parts of their
: mytholody. In addition, there was a specialzed cult which indoctrinated
: children in the cultural ways of the Mande. As a result, we find in
: Mexico that the Olmec or Xi people frequently depict felines (the
: janguar) and serpents in their iconography. In addition there is every
: indication that the Olmec people possessed religious rituals aimed
: specifically at the children.
: In summary, the Olmec and Shang share many similarities because
: their ancestors originated in the Proto-Sahara. Later they migrated to
: China and the Americas.
: C.A. Winters
: Sent via Deja.com
: http://www.deja.com/
Reference and genealogy records of the Shang:
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Courtyard/1535/cha_pu.html
We are the descendants of both dynasties and this is our genealogy
record and history.
trail...@my-deja.com
"Nickel" <nicke...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> <trail...@my-deja.com> źśźgŠóślĽó news:94s2l1
Comparing the letters you see here (and our numerals) that are symbols
of and within the hands, to Chinese characters may or may not be
futile, depending on how rigid or liberal your viewpoint might be. We
might (or might not) agree even on a character (such as the "J") that
exists by itself as a Chinese symbol. Would you agree that the Chinese
(as well as other Asian scripts) uses forms of K (facing downward) or R
(sometimes reversed) within individual symbols? Bob
Nickel
<cwin...@kiwi.dep.anl.gov> źśźgŠóślĽó news:94saic$ac$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> This would be a valid point except for the fact that the Chinese have a
> long literate history. As a result we have access to a number of Chinese
> text written before the introduction of Buddism into China. As a result,
> linguistic relationships between the Chinese and the Dravidian and
> Mande languages would not be due to Buddism, which is an elite religion.
> The traditionsal religion of China was Confusionism and Toaism.
I agree.
> You can not ignore this possibility, but since the Hua ( the name
> for the ancient Chinese) admit in the ancient literature that the early
> emperors of Xia and Shang were blacks: Li Min, we can assume that the
> linguistic relationship between these languages would be the result of
> early biligualism and changes in the vocabulary items of Chinese over
> time.
I want to know how do people get to know Li Min mean black people. In
Chinese, Min mean people and Li mean soil. In China, the color of soil is
yellow, especially in the north. Of course, there are black soil and red
soil, but how do those experts conclude that Li is black?
> Throughout the history of China various groups have conquered
> the empire and made their language the dominant language of China. As
That's true, Han dynasty was affected by Chu's culture from the south, Tang
dynasty had many Turks from the west, Jin and Liao from northeast and Yuan's
rulers are Mongolians, Qing's rulers were Siberians from China's northeast .
> a result the main language of China has changed. Moreover, the
> Chinese spoken during Shang and Xia times was different from the
> Chinese spoken at later points in the history of China.
Yes, all languages are changing, the Englsih spoken during Victoria period
is different from the English spoken by the black in New York.
> You will discover, that when you study Chinese their is no one
> "Chinese" language. Most native Chinese speak Cantonese. To
> provide for great government in China the Chinese invented
> Mandarin Chinese. It is in Mandarin that all Chinese learn to write.
> As a result, Mandarin Chinese, for example is mainly a literate /
> written language used to unify the Chinese people.
I don't agree, most Chinese today speak Mandarin, Cantonese is mostly spoken
by people in Southern China in the Pearl River region and emigrants from
there.
Mandarin Chinese is nothern dialect with some Manchurian ingredient and is
not a invention.
Nickel
> : Obviously, there must be some relationship between China and Ancient
> : America.
>
> There is no relationship between ancient China and ancient America, as
> you mention below.
When?
> : In China, there are legends about the Holy Mountain in the east, gold
and
> : medicine that can cure anything.
>
> A lot of these legends were created when a mixing of cultures, between
> East and West occurred. There were no such writings in ancient China.
From Shan Hai Jin, Qin Shi Huang Di's sending of priests and three thousands
children to the East, to Li Bai's poems, there were tons those writings in
Ancient China, how can you say there were no such writings in ancient China.
> : Look at the arts and culture of Shang dynasty, it is easy to think that
they
> : must have reached America.
>
> The arts of the Shang, though, do resemble the arts found in the
> Americas, only because these people migrated eastward at about the same
> time. The migration was called the river of Hiddekel and mention of
> this occurs in the Book of Genesis in the Holy Scriptures.
River of Hiddekel? Let me check.
> : How is Olmec and Shang related?
>
> They are not related in the way you mention!
Prove it.
> : http://www.sinorama.com.tw/en/8605/605006e1.html
>
> : How did Shang people reach America and why?
>
> They did not!
Please explain, there may be some reasons you don't like that theory, but
please find some support first.
> : Shang people were very good in sailing,
>
> This is merely a theory. Ancient Chinese records do not indicate that
> the Shang travelled to America and they were not a sailing people.
Shang people use sea shell as currencies, this was a very strong motive for
them to go to the ocean, and also they use lots of sea turtle shell.
> : and they use sea shell as
> : currencies, the shell of sea turtle to forecast the future, and they
love
> : jade very much too.
>
> : After their dynasty was replaced by the Zhou dyanasty, the upper class
and
> : armies who refused to be ruled by Zhou left their country, since the
land
> : was occupied by the Zhou armies, the only way to leave is by sea. The
warm
> : South Pacific is the best way to go, and that explain why the culture
near
> : central America is the highest.
>
> The upper class was either integrated into the Zhou Dynasty or remained
> in China. Examine our genealogy records to see for yourself. We, my
> family, are descendants of both ancient tribes.
How do you know? Hou Xi's two hundred thousands soldiers were disppeared
from the history, did they go to the ocean? Also there were records that
many Shang's people went to Korea, neither integrated into the Zhou Dynasty
or remained in China.
Nickel
<cwin...@kiwi.dep.anl.gov> źśźgŠóślĽó news:94saic$ac$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <94rrm5$6d...@imsp212.netvigator.com>,
> This would be a valid point except for the fact that the Chinese have a
> long literate history. As a result we have access to a number of Chinese
> text written before the introduction of Buddism into China. As a result,
> linguistic relationships between the Chinese and the Dravidian and
> Mande languages would not be due to Buddism, which is an elite religion.
> The traditionsal religion of China was Confusionism and Toaism.
Confusionism? I think you mean Confucianism.
lc...@nospam.lava.net
: The traditional religion of China was Confusionism and Toaism.
Yes
: You can not ignore this possibility, but since the Hua ( the name
: for the ancient Chinese) admit in the ancient literature that the early
: emperors of Xia and Shang were blacks: Li Min, we can assume that the
: linguistic relationship between these languages would be the result of
: early biligualism and changes in the vocabulary items of Chinese over
: time.
I can not allow this kind of thing to go on, especially in
soc.culture.china. It is not right to mislead people, as this causes
strife and resulting hatreds. Fact: The Xia Dynasty of China is a
mythical dynasty existing on written records without archeological
evidence. According to Chinese writings, the Xia were Han-Chinese.
It is not possible to determine, by history record or language, what kind
of people the Xia were. The Shang Emperors were, by genealogy record, not
blacks. During the time of the Shang, there was no such thing as
Emperors. By genealogy records, the Shang and the Chou are the same clan
of people. See http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Courtyard/1535/cha_pu.html
Linguistics do not determine race as many ethnic groupings of people in
ancient times did travel and were at times mixed or existed in a foreign
land and learnt to speak a foreign tongue. Since writings did not exist
in China, until the Chou Dynasty (1122 bc-256 bc) it would be next to
impossible to make a true determination that the Shang spoke some
Dravidian tongue. Your research is merely your own opinion...and with a
bias.
Why would any black person want to claim China, when Africa is a big
enough country with lots of internal problems to solve.
: Throughout the history of China various groups have conquered
: the empire and made their language the dominant language of China.
China was only conquered twice by foreigners. By the Mongols and by the
Manchurians.
: As
: a result the main language of China ahs changed. Moreover, the
: Chinese spoken during Shang and Xia times was different from the
: Chinese spoken at later points in the history of China.
The Shang were the same tribe as the Chou, with the exception of
intermarriage to the Pi, which were brown-skin Asians. To know what the
Shang spoke, you'd have to study the Chou. Do your research!
: You will discover, that when you study Chinese their is no one
: "Chinese" language. Most native Chinese speak Cantonese. To
: provide for great government in China the Chinese invented
: Mandarin Chinese. It is in Mandarin that all Chinese learn to write.
: As a result, Mandarin Chinese, for example is mainly a literate /
: written language used to unify the Chinese people.
: C.A. Winters
:> > The next civilization was called Shang. The Shang civilization
: was
:> > founded by the Dravidian speaking people. You can read about the
: history
:> > of the Dravidians in China at the following sites:
:> >
:> > http://homepages.luc.edu/~cwinter/blshang2.htm
:> >
:> > http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bay/7051/DRAVIDIANS.html
Not true. See above.
:> > As the Hua, or contemporary Chinese people expanded into China
:> >
lc...@nospam.lava.net
: children to the East, to Li Bai's poems, there were tons those writings in
: Ancient China, how can you say there were no such writings in ancient China.
Yes, this is true. Sometimes, historians write in the abstract, because
the facts are not known. What he was aluding to by symbolism was and may
have been a story relating to the great river, known in the Scriptures as
the river of Hiddekel.
:> : Look at the arts and culture of Shang dynasty, it is easy to think that
:> : they must have reached America.
:>
The arts of the Shang, though, do resemble the arts found in the
Americas, only because these people migrated eastward at about the same
time. The migration was called the river of Hiddekel and mention of
this occurs in the Book of Genesis in the Holy Scriptures.
:> : How is Olmec and Shang related?
They are not related in the way you mention! The Shang are descendants of
an ancient Shemite root and they are not in any way related to Olmec. The
proof is in their genealogy records.
:> : http://www.sinorama.com.tw/en/8605/605006e1.html
:>
:> : How did Shang people reach America and why?
:>
They did not!
:> : Shang people were very good in sailing,
:>
This is merely a theory. Ancient Chinese records do not indicate that
the Shang travelled to America and they were not a sailing people.
: Shang people use sea shell as currencies,
Yes
: this was a very strong motive for
: them to go to the ocean,
No
: and also they use lots of sea turtle shell.
Yes
:> : and they use sea shell as
:> : currencies, the shell of sea turtle to forecast the future, and they
: love
:> : jade very much too.
:>
:> : After their dynasty was replaced by the Zhou dyanasty, the upper class
: and
:> : armies who refused to be ruled by Zhou left their country, since the
: land
:> : was occupied by the Zhou armies, the only way to leave is by sea. The
: warm
:> : South Pacific is the best way to go, and that explain why the culture
: near
:> : central America is the highest.
Absolutely false! Genealogy and history records indicate that the Shang
did not do this.
The upper class was either integrated into the Zhou Dynasty or remained
in China.
: How do you know? Hou Xi's two hundred thousands soldiers were disppeared
: from the history, did they go to the ocean? Also there were records that
: many Shang's people went to Korea, neither integrated into the Zhou Dynasty
: or remained in China.
Do you read Chinese? Ancient Chinese records do not support support his
theories.
trail...@my-deja.com
A version of the tetragram (this one overlined and instead of
underlined, has a line at the right side) appears on the oraclebone
reflected in this thread. This four type symbol appears above another
ancient American symbol not unlike this, at
http://www.chaco.com/park/
click on "photos" at left, scroll down to "deer and medicine man
petroglyph", about half way down. Note also that the idea of 52
expressed within the Chinese numeral five, is reflected (the feet) in
the figure next to this symbol. Cheers, Bob
lc...@nospam.lava.net
: The traditional religion of China was Confucianism and Taoism.
Yes
: You can not ignore this possibility, but since the Hua ( the name
: for the ancient Chinese) admit in the ancient literature that the early
: emperors of Xia and Shang were blacks: Li Min, we can assume that the
: linguistic relationship between these languages would be the result of
: early biligualism and changes in the vocabulary items of Chinese over
: time.
I can not allow this kind of thing to go on, especially in
soc.culture.china. It is not right to mislead people, as this causes
strife and resulting hatreds. Fact: The Xia Dynasty of China is a
mythical dynasty existing on written records without archeological
evidence. According to Chinese writings, the Xia were Han-Chinese.
It is not possible to determine, by history record or language, what kind
of people the Xia were. The Shang Emperors were, by genealogy record, not
blacks. During the time of the Shang, there was no such thing as
Emperors. By genealogy records, the Shang and the Chou are the same clan
of people. See http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Courtyard/1535/cha_pu.html
Linguistics do not determine race as many ethnic groupings of people in
ancient times did travel and were at times mixed or existed in a foreign
land and learnt to speak a foreign tongue. Since writings did not exist
in China, until the Chou Dynasty (1122 bc-256 bc) it would be next to
impossible to make a true determination that the Shang spoke some
Dravidian tongue. Your research is merely your own opinion...and with a
bias.
Why would any black person want to claim China, when Africa is a big
enough country with lots of internal problems to solve.
: Throughout the history of China various groups have conquered
: the empire and made their language the dominant language of China.
China was only conquered twice by foreigners. By the Mongols and by the
Manchurians.
: As
: a result the main language of China ahs changed. Moreover, the
: Chinese spoken during Shang and Xia times was different from the
: Chinese spoken at later points in the history of China.
The Shang were the same tribe as the Chou, with the exception of
intermarriage to the Pi, which were brown-skin Asians. To know what the
Shang spoke, you'd have to study the Chou. Do your research!
: You will discover, that when you study Chinese their is no one
: "Chinese" language. Most native Chinese speak Cantonese. To
: provide for great government in China the Chinese invented
: Mandarin Chinese. It is in Mandarin that all Chinese learn to write.
: As a result, Mandarin Chinese, for example is mainly a literate /
: written language used to unify the Chinese people.
: C.A. Winters
:> > The next civilization was called Shang. The Shang civilization
: was
:> > founded by the Dravidian speaking people. You can read about the
: history
:> > of the Dravidians in China at the following sites:
:> >
:> > http://homepages.luc.edu/~cwinter/blshang2.htm
:> >
:> > http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bay/7051/DRAVIDIANS.html
Not true. See above.
:> > As the Hua, or contemporary Chinese people expanded into China
:> >
trail...@my-deja.com
trail...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <94s5ud$lq...@imsp212.netvigator.com>,
> "Nickel" <nicke...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >
of the left hand of an elder, the tetragram (which is the Chinese
numeral five, upside down) is the master turning symbol of our alphabet
and numerals. Within the web it exists as the alpha cursive letter (and
was written as such on ancient points), that is the lower half of an
alpha majuscule letter. This four of the web is also omega (and the
cursive form of r). By turning the tetragram, you can find 34 letters
and numerals (missing only the k and 8 of an earlier period) of our
original alphabet; which is the reason that so many english letters and
numerals exist within the symbols of Asian lexicons. Bob
joachim j layes
lc...@nospam.lava.net wrote:
> Your research is merely your own opinion...and with a
> bias.
well, let me add -as an complete interested amateur in this matter - both of
you seem to do the same thing - referring back to their own website and
research.. As an outsider, it's very difficult to take position (though one
of these 2 opinions sounds more reasonable to me - but I'll keep that aside)
> Why would any black person want to claim China, when Africa is a big
> enough country with lots of internal problems to solve.
I haven't read anywhere in this thread that a 'black' person is trying to
claim China... although I can understand that national-ethnical reasons and
emotional feelings apparently are addressed in this sort of discussion but ..
I don't know... don't take me wrong, I'm very interested in this topic yet I
feel that it's getting too emotional, and maybe we should stop this thread..
it's not leading anywhere besides replies on replies and my research is more
founded than yours... this'll be my last reply on this thread.
sorry for my unworthy 5cents
joachim
cwin...@kiwi.dep.anl.gov
lc...@nospam.lava.net wrote:
> In soc.culture.china cwin...@kiwi.dep.anl.gov wrote:
> : The traditional religion of China was Confusionism and Toaism.
>
> Yes
>
> : You can not ignore this possibility, but since the Hua ( the name
> : for the ancient Chinese) admit in the ancient literature that the
early
> : emperors of Xia and Shang were blacks: Li Min, we can assume that
the
> : linguistic relationship between these languages would be the result
of
> : early biligualism and changes in the vocabulary items of Chinese
over
> : time.
>
> I can not allow this kind of thing to go on, especially in
> soc.culture.china. It is not right to mislead people, as this causes
> strife and resulting hatreds. Fact: The Xia Dynasty of China is a
> mythical dynasty existing on written records without archeological
> evidence. According to Chinese writings, the Xia were Han-Chinese.
> It is not possible to determine, by history record or language, what
kind
> of people the Xia were.
This shows your ignorance. Chinese archaeologist have determined several
sites which they believe represent the Xia dynasty. Do your homework.
C.A. Winters
cwin...@kiwi.dep.anl.gov
lc...@nospam.lava.net wrote:
> In soc.culture.china cwin...@kiwi.dep.anl.gov wrote:
> : The traditional religion of China was Confucianism and Taoism.
>
> Yes
>
> : You can not ignore this possibility, but since the Hua ( the name
> : for the ancient Chinese) admit in the ancient literature that the
early
> : emperors of Xia and Shang were blacks: Li Min, we can assume that
the
> : linguistic relationship between these languages would be the result
of
> : early biligualism and changes in the vocabulary items of Chinese
over
> : time.
>
> I can not allow this kind of thing to go on, especially in
> soc.culture.china. It is not right to mislead people, as this causes
> strife and resulting hatreds. Fact: The Xia Dynasty of China is a
> mythical dynasty existing on written records without archeological
> evidence.
Hi Ichow
You are very wrong. You are the one misleading the people. There is
arcaheological evidence for the Xia Dynasty.
The Xia Dynasty is not a myth. This Dynasty is mentioned in
the textual material of China. A passage in the Li Zhi, observered that
" the regulations of the three dynasties are the same andd all the
people follow them". Confucius is quoted in the Wei Zheng (The Confucian
Analects), said that " the Yin [Shang] Dynasty followed the regulations
of the Xia, wherein it took from of added to them may be known; the Zhou
Dynasty followed the regulations of the Yin: wherein it took from or
added to them may be known".
The Xia are believed to have belonged to a culture archaeologists
call the Erlitou culture. The Erlitou culture dates between 2030-1530
BC.
The founder of the Xia Dynasty was Emperor Yu. The Chinese
historical text say that the Xia civilization was located in the Henan
and Shaanxi. According to the Ku ben Zhu shu zhi nien, "The Xia Dynasty
from Yu to Zhieh had sventeen kings….and lasted 471 years". In the
Bamboo Annals, it is said that "Among the descendants of Xia, Yu
resided at Yangcheng". Most researchers believe that the legendary Xia
capital of Yangcheng is the Wang Cheng Gang mound near the Wudu river.
Reference:
" Important discoveries at Xia ruins", China Pictorial ( March,1985),
pp.32-35
An Jinhuai, "In search of China's oldest capital", China Pictorial,
pp.39-41
R. Pearson & A. Underhill, "The Chinese neolithic: Recent trends in
research", American Anthropologist, 89 (4), pp. 807-822: 816-817.
Anyone who bothers to read these articles will see that Chinese
archaeologists do believe they have found the archaeologicale Xia .
According to Chinese writings, the Xia were Han-Chinese.
> It is not possible to determine, by history record or language, what
kind
> of people the Xia were. The Shang Emperors were, by genealogy record,
not
> blacks. During the time of the Shang, there was no such thing as
> Emperors. By genealogy records, the Shang and the Chou are the same
clan
> of people. See
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Courtyard/1535/cha_pu.html
This geneology as you call is inaccurate.
I suggest that you do your homework.
Studying Zhou/Chou Chinese would not help us because we learn very
little about the sounds of Chinese until A.D. 601 when the 'Qieyun'
pronouncing dictionary was completed. This along with the fanqie
spellers determined how Chinese "should" be spoken. Under the influence
of Indian scholars the Tang scholars refined the sound system of
the Qieyun under new phonological science called dengyun-xue " the
study of graded rhyme". This way of viewing Chinese sounds continued
into Song times. The changing sound systems of Chinese has made it
almost impossible to really know how the ancient Chinese pronounced
their language. S. R. Ramsey in The languages of China, observed that "
By comparison [to Middle English and Mondern English] the classical
poems are mute. The modern reader does not hear a Tang verse the way it
sounded when it was written. Instead, he customarily reads the
characters with mandarin (or perhaps Fukienese, Cantonese or
Shanghainese) pronounciations, and in so doing treats the poem as if it
had been written in a modern Chinese dialect" (p.125). As a result, the
only ancient Chinese we know is the "Middle Chinese" Berhard Karlgren
reconstructed from the Qieyun. Therefore, there is no way to find the
Zhou language you say we should study.
But if we compare the sound of contemporary and ancient Chniese
characters and there alleged meanings to Mande and Dravidian languages
we find many identical terms. This supports the view that the ancient
Chinese could have spoken Mande and Dravidian languages.
The Chinese do not speak one language. Although most Chinese speak
Mandarin a group of mutually intelligible dialects in the North, the
Chinese also speak Wu, Gan, Xiang, Hakka, Yue and Min (see S.R. Ramsey,
The Languages of China, (Princeton, 1987) p. 87). It was not until
after 1913, that the Putoonghua [Common Language ] was standardized.
Mandarin was called Mandarin Guanhua "language of the officials"
Ramsey in The Languages of China observed that up to 1913 "Regionalism
had masked a linguistic dilemma. Here in China, the issue of
standardization was not like that of many other countries because what
was called the "Chinese language" was extremely diverse far more so
than any other single language in the world. The person born and bred in
Peking could not understand conversations he might happen to overhear
on the streets of Shanghai, because to him the local "dialect" was
incomprehensible….In the far South, in Canton, speech was again
different, and there the local dialect was incomprehensible to anyone
from either Peking or Shanghai" (p.6)
This supports my discussion of the diversity of Chinese language.
C.A. Winters
trail...@my-deja.com
written language was derived from the mouth. I suggested it came from
the hand, beginning with the earliest symbols as the paired 52/25 type
((opposites derived from the end of the left hand)that exist on alpha
cursive shaped points; and the ? (though with 2 dots) that stemmed from
a viewpoint of the right hand, often inscribed on "L" shaped points.
The below URL reflects that maybe we both were right. The left side of
the mouth reflects the vertical connected 52; the right side, the ?
(though likely without dots) at
http://members.aol.com/emdelcamp/teomsk1b.htm
trail...@my-deja.com
therefore useless as a Mother symbol; the first coin at the below URL
still conveys the idea of four, as the almost reversed swastica to
which it also gave birth, as well as the important ideas of the serpent
and the eagle (or hawk), dear to the heart of ancient Chinese, Greeks,
and ancient Americans, as the 5 and the 2 at
http://www.mcs.drexel.edu/~crorres/Archimedes/Coins/Arethusa.html
trail...@my-deja.com
....Also, both the ideas of the Chinese five (as the four, and the
paired 52), exist hidden within the ancient maze symbols that were
effected both by the Hopi ndns and the ancient Greeks, in both round
and square forms. Though both examples are reflected in the below URL
page, the Greek coins versions have a viewpoint that appears (also in
center), when you quarter turn the page to the right. at
http://www.crystalinks.com/labyrinths2.html
trail...@my-deja.com
symbol at
http://martins.castlelink.co.uk/pyramid/forging/backingmarks.html
which can be read as 52 and 25 both vertically and horizontally; not
unlike the ideas that exist within 2 artifacts of the superior Justin
Kerr portfolio, recently posted in this thread. For the first (at
center of base), key in on search - 5846. The other is a mouth
portrayal. Key in 3927.
dun...@king.cts.com
--
I have read your websites and find myself in agreement up to a sharp
point of divergence. There is archaeological evidence for the Xia and
recent finds link the dynasty to erlitou (Chang). There is a solid case
for ongoing transpacific migrations and subsequent colonization of the
Pacific and the Americas (Kirch). But I don't find any sub saharan
influences on the Chinese neolithic and can understand Mr. Chows
vehement denials of Africans as the genesis of Chinese civilization. To
cite references to the black-haired people as meaning black skinned
people is disingenuous. I cannot find any basis in the work of K.C.
Chang (probably the foremost Chinese archaeologist) to support your
theories, in fact this is what Chang has to say:
."..all the regional cultures of the Shang period- even though all
of them were not part of the Shang state and all were not referred to as
Shang by the Shang themselves. The same holds true for the Chou
civilization. The Ch'u, Yeuh, Pa and Tien civilizations of South China,
for example, were all demonstrably ancestral to Chinese civilization- an
amalgamation of many strains from many sources-or at least to some
portions or regional divisions of that civilization, and they are, thus,
all Chinese in a classificatory sense."
He then goes on to say, as if addressing you directly,
"I am not unmindful of the historical-linguistic dilemmas that
are involved in such classificatory problems, but to claim that any of
these civilizations were non-Chinese and were subsequently assimilated
or expelled by the Chinese, who came out of a single nuclear area, is to
fly in the face of the archaeological evidence in every case, where
continuity with change is invariably the rule."
Archaeology of Ancient China" K. C. Chang p481.
Your websites have some good information, but are diminished by citing
experts, be they Chang, Coe or Schele. when in fact they don't support
your positions.
Duncan
cwin...@kiwi.dep.anl.gov
dun...@king.cts.com wrote:
Hi Duncan
First of all I can not comment on the quote you provide. I have the
4th edition of Chang's Archaeology of Ancients China, and this quotation
has not been republished. In fact the text of this edition of
Archaeology of Ancient China, ends on page 422.
I don't understand what you are talking about when you say that I have
no right to include Chang, Coe or Schele in my responses. I have never
said in any of my websites that these people support my views. When I
cite these researchers I only use them as references to the archaeology
of MesoAmerica and China. I take responsibility for all the
interpretations the archaeological evidence in my writings.
I am happy to hear that you found my websites interesting, but I
am sorry to hear that you believe Mr.Chow's has any relevance to the
issue of the ancient Chinese language and people. First of all, the
ancient Chinese were not a monolithic group. Wang Chih, in the Li Zhi,
makes it clear that during Zhou times many people lived in China
including the Hua Xia ' glorious Xia people' (of the Middle states),
the Yi in the east, the Man in the south the Jung or Rong in the west
and the Di in the north ( Wu, 1982:pg.107; Chang,1986:pg.368) other
tribal groups in China were the Qiang, and Yueh-chih.
We fail to understand the complexity of the ethnographic situation in
China because of our use of the term Chinese. Kwang-chih Chang,
commenting on this phonomena observed that "The English word Chinese
has both a geographical-cultural sense….In terms of that interpretation
one may question the use of the word to describe the prehistoric
interaction sphere, because the Han Chinese language and its speakers
were in all likelihood a regional, not a spheric, phenomenon" (pg.,
242).
The Zhou recognized the Shang and Xia as "li min" 'black people'.
In Chinese the word "min" means people.
Western Researchers when translating the ancient Chinese textual
material relating to the Shang and Xia people, always translate "Li" as
'black headed" or "black haired" for example :" Thus all the
black-haired people transformed and lived in tranquility" (see K.C. Wu,
The Chinese Heritage, (New York: Crown Publishers, Inc, 1982) pg. 65)
.The definition of "Li" is "dark dun color, or black' (see Dr. L.
Wieger, Chinese Characters, (New York:Dover Publications,1965) pg.618).
As a result instead of reading these characters as "black haired" and
etc., it should read "black people".
The Zhou writings make it clear that they were distinct from the Xia
and Shang people, evethough they inherited the culture and writing of
the earlier rulers of China. In the Shu King , the Zhou Duke Muh of Xin
(Shanxi) in 625 BC, observed that a good minister "…would be able to
preserve my descendants and my black headed people…." In the Ode Sang
Yu, composed around 842 or 828 BC, the Earl of Jay mourns over the lost
of support from the "black people/Li Min" when he said that :" Every
state is being ruined. There are no black heads among the people" (see
Terrien de Lacouperie, " The black heads of Babylonia and Ancient
China", in The Babylonian and Oriental Record , 5(11) 1891, pp.233-246:
238). Moreover on a Western Zhou bronze (c.771 BC), it was inscribed
that [King] Wu [son of King Wen] conquered Shang on the morning of/the
day/jia zi. Having seized the [Shang] ding-couldrons , and vanquished
the dark [Shang] King" (see P. Neil, "New light on China's oldest
civilizations", Asia (May/June,1980) pp.16-21). Here again we see
reference to the "Black Shang" people.
In your message you questioned any relationship between China and
sub-Saharan Africa. First of all, it should be mentioned that the Blacks
who founded civilization in China were from Middle or Saharan Africa. At
this early time in history, the Mande speaking people were not settled
in the Niger River Valley which was unoccupied.
There are several elements of Chinese history and civilization
which relate to the Mande speaking people. First the Proto-Mande
formerly lived in Middle Africa. Here they used a black-and-red pottery
style and had their own writing system. Finally, the Mande speaking
people call themselves "Si".
These elements relate to the founders of Xia and Shang. For example,
in addition to being recognized as black people "Li Min', the Xia and
Shang made it clear that the their surname was Zi or Si ( see: K.C. Wu,
The Chinese Heritage, pp. 120 and 164). This is important because the
Mande people , like the Olmec of MesoAmerica, called themselves Si.
Han Fei Tzu, writing in the 3rd Century BC, in the Shih Kuo, wrote
that "When Yao [ an early ruler of China] governed the world, people ate
in clay vessels and drank in clay mugs; Yu made ritual vessels, painting
the interior in black and the exterior in red; the Yin people…engraved
their utensils for meals and incised their utensils for drinking wine"
(see: Chang, pg.4). The ancestors of the modern Mande speaking people,
the Proto-Mande who lived in the ancient Sahara used a red-and-black
ware. This pottery style which originated in Middle Africa was found at
the lowest levels of the Chinese civilizations throughout mainland China
(K.C. Chang, The Archaeology of Ancient China, (Yale University Press:
New Haven, 1986, 4th Edition) pg. 140; J.G. Andersson, Children of the
Yelllow Earth, (London: Kegan Paul, 1934; and G. D. Wu, Prehistoric
Pottery of China, (1938) pg. 148).
K.C.Chang notes many similarities between Chinese and MesoAmerican
civilization he wrote that:" The Aztec-Spanish contrast echoes the
contrast between China and the civilizational stereotype mentioned
earlier. In fact, most if not all of the essential characteristics of
ancient Chinese civilization are also seen in ancient Mesoamerican
civilization….We see a stratified universe with the
bird-perched-on-cosmic-tree and religious personnel interlinking the
upper, middle, and lower worlds. We find the use of writing for purposes
of politics and ritual. We find that kinship was intertwined with
politics, and that ancestors were venerated" (pg. 419). He does not
attempt to explain why these cultures show many similarities, Chang
writes "For the idea of a Maya-China continuum and the idea of a Near
Eastern breakout, I will depend on my colleagues in these areas for
confirmation or modification" (Chang, pp.421-422). Given these
similarities the Olmec-Shang debate will continue.
In conclusion, the Chinese did not all speak the same language.
In addition, the founders of Xia and Shang were Negroes or Black people.
People who called themselves "Si", just like their cousins in Mande
speaking West Africa today and among the Olmec in acient times. This
explains the similarities between the writing systems used in ancient
China, Middle Africa and Meso-America.
C.A. Winters
lc...@nospam.lava.net
:> Ichow:
Done in poor taste and very unprofessional of you. You do have a good
website and your research is professionally done, but you are a bit biased
in favor of the black community. I am not slighting you as you do me.
All I am doing is to point out your error. I am a descendant of both
Chinese dynasties, the Shang and the Chou. I do know my ancestry well,
better than any other person in this world. If anyone wants to view our
family genealogy to see if we have black paternal roots, all that they
need do is go to our family's genealogy website at
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Courtyard/1535/cha_pu.html
:>
:> This shows your ignorance. Chinese archaeologist have determined
: several
:> sites which they believe represent the Xia dynasty. Do your homework.
:>
:> C.A. Winters
You are wrong. Assumptions are no different than your statements or
assumptions that the Shang Dynasty kings were black. The facts still
shows that the Xia Dynasty is a mythical dynasty. Why would any black
American want to claim to be Chinese???
:>
:> The Shang Emperors were, by genealogy record,
lc...@nospam.lava.net
: I have read your websites and find myself in agreement up to a sharp
Dear Duncan,
I respect your posting above and I do not argue with any known expert, who
is honest and sincere in his approach. Speaking as a professional in the
history of ancient civilizations, everyone is accorded space to pursue
their own theories. Sometimes, emotions do get involved and we scream out
foul, but any professional must regain one's composure and take a more
professional stand.
Sometimes, even in professional research, others in our field will not
recognize our work though based on sound fact and reason. Sometimes, a
more popular view may prevail, but no professional researcher will live
with those views for long as no one wants to look like a fool.
When I first studied my own family's genealogy tree and writings in
classical Chinese, I rejected it as being false and not of my family's
origin. Being raised in the roots of the Chou and Shang, in this modern
day and time, made me feel this way. I could not see how my family,
presently, could ever associate with things of the past and it looked a
bit foreign in my mind. The more I studied and looked into my own
family's past, the more I came to accept and understand ancient history.
So, sometimes, what we as professionals reject is and can be true. As to
the origins of the Shang, we are an ancient Shemite tribe of people, who
descend from Jobab, like the people of the Chou. We are White people, who
migrated to China and have been sinocized in the process. Yet, our family
genealogy preserves our roots and ancient family history.
The Pi people, in our family, were of the brown skin Asian race. Sort of
like the slaves in the South, during the colonial days.
If anyone wants, they can examine the genealogy record of the Shang, Chou,
and Hsia dynasties at my family's homepage:
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Courtyard/1535/cha_pu.html
According to the most accurate research of the Xia Dynasty (Hsia Dynasty),
they were merged into my family of the Chou in ancient times. The Xia had
no existence in China proper and it is a mythical dynasty. It's existence
is only on paper and there is no archeological evidense of it, by
archaeological diggings. Other than on paper and, also, in connection
with my family, from the Chou Dynasty, it does not exist. While evidence
can be manufactured to attribute to its existance (which has been done),
the better research papers will always truthfully state that no
archaeological evidense occurs. We do, though, place the Xia in China and
attribute its location there properly and correctly by our written records.
jeff...@my-deja.com
> The number 5 as used in China comes from the Chou Dynasty of ancient
> times and not the Shang Dynasty.
The character for number 5 first appeared in Oracle Bone inscription,
and it looks like an X. Oracle bones are dated as old as 1300 BC, and
are like trade marks of Shang dynasty.
If there is any connection of Olmec and Shang, this trade mark should
appear someday.
rgds
Jeff Yan
jeff...@my-deja.com
> In the early Chinese literature these Blacks were called Li min,
Qiang
> and Yueh.
Yueh is the people living in south eastern China, their descendents
includ present-day Cantonese speaking Chinese people and northern
Vietnamese. In Chinese, nam means south, and viet is just Yueh. vietnam
is Southern Yueh. Yueh people are mongoloid.
Li Min refers to lower class Chinese. A Mongoloid gets suntan easily,
so that a lower class Chinese usually has a darker skin because of
exposure to sunshine. Li Min is also in the vocabulary of present day
Chinese.
Lower class chinese was also often refered as Qian-Shou (black head).
This word is no longer in use anymore in modern Chinese, but it was in
frequent use in Qin dynasty. There is a lot of terra-cottas unearthed
from the tomb of the 1st Emperor of Qin (Qin Shi Huang Di), depicting
generals (from upper class) as well as lower class soldiers. They all
look mongoloid.
Qian is also the old name of a province, fyi.
Black color, according to ancient philosophers, represent water, one of
the five basic elements (metal, wood, water, fire, dirt) that consists
our universe. Each dynasty also picks a color and element from these
five colors and elements as its sacred color and element.
> http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bay/7051/blshang.htm
> The Dravidians and Mande formerly lived in the proto-Sahara or
> middle Africa. From here these people began to migrate out of middle
> Africa after 3000 BC to settle parts of Asia and mesopotamia.
Anything is possible, however a natural question is, why the
cultural "trade marks" of Shang people, fantastic bronze vessels,
bronze inscriptions, oracle bones inscriptions are missing from proto-
Sahara. If that was a nation with advanced culture, and they were from
Africa, why they did not leave their trade marks in Africa?
All branches of human species were from Africa, and Shang people,
present day chinese, european, etc all have African ancestry. The only
question is when they left Africa.
The first
> civilization of China was called Xia/Hsia. This civilization was
founded
> by the Mande speakers. See the following site:
> http://homepages.luc.edu/~cwinter/xia.htm
Well there are very few archaelogical discoveries about Xia, and it is
very difficult to investigate on anything of Xia including the language
Xia people spoke. Before evidents are there, I can not see why you can
determine their language.
> The next civilization was called Shang. The Shang civilization
was
> founded by the Dravidian speaking people. You can read about the
history
> of the Dravidians in China at the following sites:
>
> http://homepages.luc.edu/~cwinter/blshang2.htm
>
> http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bay/7051/DRAVIDIANS.html
>
> As the Hua, or contemporary Chinese people expanded into China
the
> Dravidian and Mande speaking people began to migrate out of northern
> China into Yunnan and southern China. From here the Dravidian people
> began to move into Southeast Asia. From Southeast Asia the Dravidian
> people were forced back into India where they are known today as the
> Tamil speaking Dravidians.
Basically, I believe Mr. Winters' theory is that Mande people
accomplished a historical task by moving from Africa to China to set up
our first civilization, taught us so many things including writing that
they did not teach their African neighbours, and then they disappeared
so that their traces would not be found easily. (What happened after
their leave from China? They probably set up some other great cultures?)
You may need to do a lot of explanation.
>
> The Mande and Dravidian speaking people in Southern China also
> migrated to the Pacific Islands.
> See the following site:
> http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bay/7051/pac1.htm
>
> Because the founders of Xia and Shang China, and the Olmecs were
> Proto-Mande and Proto-Dravidian speakers it is only natural that they
> would share many culture features. For example, among these people
> felines and dragons(serpents and etc.) are important parts of their
> mytholody.
The Chinese dragon evolved slowly from a lizard/crocodile like animal
to a snake body / bufflo head animal. The image of dragon back to Zhou
(Chou) dynasties does not look like snake, not to mention the image in
Shang dynasty.
cwin...@kiwi.dep.anl.gov
lc...@nospam.lava.net wrote:
> In soc.culture.china dun...@king.cts.com wrote:
> :> Ichow:
>
> Done in poor taste and very unprofessional of you. You do have a good
> website and your research is professionally done, but you are a bit
biased
> in favor of the black community. I am not slighting you as you do me.
> All I am doing is to point out your error. I am a descendant of both
> Chinese dynasties, the Shang and the Chou. I do know my ancestry
well,
> better than any other person in this world. If anyone wants to view
our
> family genealogy to see if we have black paternal roots, all that they
> need do is go to our family's genealogy website at
> http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Courtyard/1535/cha_pu.html
Hi Chow
This discussion has nothing to do with the black community. It is a
discussion of the facts relayed to us through Chinese literature and
archaeology which claims that Blacks founded the Xia and Shang
civilization. I am not manufacturing the facts. They come from Chinese
textual material and excavation.
C.A. Winters
jeff...@my-deja.com
> migration from America to Singapore to India?
>
I donot know the original point of this thread, but the fact that India
and Singapore have been British colonies does not help your point.
jeff...@my-deja.com
> The Zhou recognized the Shang and Xia as "li min" 'black people'.
> In Chinese the word "min" means people.
> Western Researchers when translating the ancient Chinese textual
> material relating to the Shang and Xia people, always translate "Li"
as
> 'black headed" or "black haired" for example :" Thus all the
> black-haired people transformed and lived in tranquility" (see K.C.
Wu,
> The Chinese Heritage, (New York: Crown Publishers, Inc, 1982) pg. 65)
> .The definition of "Li" is "dark dun color, or black' (see Dr. L.
> Wieger, Chinese Characters, (New York:Dover Publications,1965)
pg.618).
> As a result instead of reading these characters as "black haired" and
> etc., it should read "black people".
Li means black, Min means people. Lin Min literally means black people,
and originally refers to lower class people, and in modern Chinese
common people.
Both characters are still used in modern Chinese, and so is the phrase
Li Min. Li Min is often used with Bai Xing (one hundred family names,
literally) simply to mean common people.
The character Li is also used in some other phrases, such as Li Ming.
Li Ming means dawn. Ming means light (the structure of this character
is a character for sun in the left, and the character for moon in the
right), Li Ming is simply light in dark, or dawn, daybreak.
As I mentioned in another posting, black headed is not from Li Min, but
from Qian Shou. Qian means black, and shou means head.
Qian is still in use in modern Chinese, but Qian Shou is no longer in
use. Qian Shou and their interests became a hot debate during Qin
dynasty (200 BC), and can be found in a lot of documents of that
period.
Both Li Min and Qian shou refer to lower class people, most of them
physical labors with heavy suntan because of exposure to sunshine. A
yellow or mongoloid people gets suntan easily, and when he exposes
himself to a lot of sunshine, he gets a darker skin. In a time only
noble members could be exempted of labour, black people or black headed
people means lower class people. Just like blue-collar means physical
workers, white collar means management members in the nowaday America,
Li Min and Qian Shou simply mean people from a lower social status and
do a lot of physical labour.
The fact that Li Min is still part of our present day Chinese makes it
difficult to believe that they refer to a black race that disappeared
long long ago.
The sculptures of Qin's Qian Shou can be found in Shaanxi, and there
are several thousand of them, unearthed from the tomb of First Emperor
of Qin - his terra cotta soldiers and generals. see
http://www.unesco.org/whc/sites/441.htm
for more.
Each terra cotta was probably shaped after a human model, and there are
several thousands of them, each one of them an different face, with
some other several thousands unearthed.
All the generals and soldiers look mongoloid. According to articles by
archaeologists involved in the studies and actuall digging, the
terracottas are still colored when they are unearthed, just to fade
away quickly after exposed to air -- and this is one of the main
reasons that they hesitate to unearth the rest of them before a method
is found to protect the original color of these terracottas. Yes, the
skin color of the terracotta was yellow or brown.
Qin Emperor believed that black should be the sacred color of Qin,
water being the sacred element, basically because its predecessor, Zhou
dynasty worshipped red and fire.
According to Chinese ancient philosophy, metal, wood, water, fire and
dirt are five "elements" of the entire universe. Each element has a
color, red is for fire, black is for water. As water defeats fire, Qin
defeats Zhou. Because Zhou dynasty worshipped fire and red, Qin had to
worship water and black. Therefore, the word Qian Shou, created and
used long before Qin dynasty, suddenly got a political meaning:
respected people, just because Qian means black.
See http://www.san.beck.org/EC16-Legalism.html for more.
Qin people, people worshipped black named themselves Qian Shou, were
obviously mongoloid. Qin dynasty died in voilence, though the element
and color then worshipped mean quiet and tranquilty.
The following describes how these five elements work for/against each
other:
GENERATIVE CYCLE DESTRUCTIVE CYCLE
=====================================================================
Fire produces Earth Earth destroys Water
Earth produces Metal Metal detroys Wood
Wood produces Fire Fire destroys Metal
Metal produces Water Water destroys Fire
Water produces Wood Wood destroys Earth
The following describes how colors are attached to these five elements:
FIRE Characteristics: Burning and ascending
Association: Enlightenment
COLOR Red, deep red, orange, pink and purple
EARTH Characteristics: Productive and creative
Association: Care and attention
COLOR Yellow, light orange to pale lemon hues, gold, golden
WOOD Characteristics: Shapeable and formable
Association: Relaxation
COLOR Green, shades of green, lime green, dark green
METAL Characteristics: Malleable
Association: Energy
COLOR White, shades from light grey to off-white, cream
WATER Characteristics: Absorption and descending
Association: Tranquility and quiet
COLOR Black, dark colors, dark grey, deep blue or indigo
for more, see http://www.chinafrontier.com/feng5element.htm
Common or lower class people better be quiet and absorbing, and that is
a political reason that for thousands of years common people are called
Li Min, just like the street goes before the forbidden city and across
Beijing is called Long Tranquilty (Chang An) Avenue.
For possible interest, these five elements are also associated with
five directions, such as North represents Water, and Fire is
represented by South. These directions are only useful for prophecy
practices, and certainly do not mean the origin of the people who
worship them. The origin of Qin Emperor was Qin Kingdom (or Dukedom)
located close to Xi'an, and that is west or north west to the center of
Zhou dynasty, rather than north.
Translating Li Min as black race, and Qian Shou as black race seems to
be due to a lack of knowledge in the culture factors. I can assure you
that there have been no green race people though green and wood was
also worshipped once in a long while.
rgds
Jeff Yan
A Li Min Bai Xing from China
cwin...@kiwi.dep.anl.gov
Hi Jeff
Your discussion of li min in relation to contemporary Chinese society is
quite interesting , but it has nothing to do with the usage of Li min in
ancient times. Although, rural Chinese may have been tanned by the sun,
these farmers were never described as "black people". The terms for
"black" in Chinese include gien, xiun, hwan, yuen, xuan, hek, mek and
wu. The Chinese character in textual material relating to the early
history of China like the Shu King is "li min".
In the Ode, Sang Yu , composed in 842 or 828 BC, the Earl of Juy
mourns over the lost of the "black heads" when he observed that " Every
state is being ruined. There are no black heads among the people". This
phrase makes it clear that the Zhou recognized a difference between the
"[Zhou] people" and the "li min". It is clear that if "li min" referred
to "lower class" people why would he make it clear that a particular
group of people under his rule no longer remained in his domain if at
this time in Chinese history "li min" meant "lower class". Your
projection of modern terminology on to ancient Chinese literature has no
validity and can not be accepted as the actual interpretation of "li
min". The term Li min referred to the Black people of China, no lower
class Chinese people.
C.A. Winters
jeff...@my-deja.com
stating that Mr. Winters is "claming China". I believe Winters'
postings are generally pertaining to academic discussions, and such
accusation is not fair to him.
I urge people here pay more attention to better scholarship and more
effort to avoid being emotional, if you want your points to be taken
seriously.
> The founder of the Xia Dynasty was Emperor Yu. The Chinese
> historical text say that the Xia civilization was located in the Henan
> and Shaanxi.
"Emperor" Yu, if ever lived, was by all means merely a tribe head.
Ancient Chinese called him King Yu to show respects, but I bet his
crown was not in gold but mud.
There could be several hundred or even thousand tribes thrived during
those days, and the stories of those tribes mixed up and became legends
or tales. When the legends or tales got recorded, things might have
been further mixed up or combined, and very likely, Yu is a result of
such forget/reinvent process, highly vulnerable to mistakes and
exagerations.
Yu is usually called Da Yu, or great Yu, and he is famous in China for
his story of fighting floods. According to this story, Yu came by his
home three times without entering, and therefore a very dedicated and
selfishless figure.
If Yu proven a real person and lived, then we also have to explain what
happened to his tribe and his land, that caused the flood of that scale.
Different from flood lengends in other nations (such as the one from
the bible), this Chinese flood was tamed by man.
Unless more archaeological discoveries are made, Xia only exists in old
documents in the form of lengends.
> from Yu to Zhieh had sventeen kings….and lasted 471 years". In the
> Bamboo Annals, it is said that "Among the descendants of Xia, Yu
> resided at Yangcheng". Most researchers believe that the legendary Xia
> capital of Yangcheng is the Wang Cheng Gang mound near the Wudu river.
>
These Bamboo annals are likely to be from Han Dynasty (206 B.C.-A.D. 9)
which was 2000 years later than Yu's time. If we took these Bamboo
annals as proof of Xia's existence, what should we do about the
lengends on Wu Gang going to the moon?
> I suggest that you do your homework.
> Studying Zhou/Chou Chinese would not help us because we learn very
> little about the sounds of Chinese until A.D. 601 when the 'Qieyun'
> pronouncing dictionary was completed. This along with the fanqie
> spellers determined how Chinese "should" be spoken.
Chinese characters were coined with pictures, ideas, and phonetics
combined. By studying the poems with rythmes we know which characters
are likely to share the same vowals in the ancient tongues. Those
characters may also appear as part of other characters because of
phonetic reasons, so that we can extend further the comparison to more
characters.
We can use this method as far as we get the ancient poems. Fortunately,
the oldes poems are from Shi Jing (Classic of Poetry, compiled by
Confucius or his pupils).
(1) A perfect example:
kan kan fa tan xi, zhi zhi he zhi gan xi.
from the above, we know that tan (wood) is likely to share the same
vowal as gan (shore of river). As a matter of fact, they still do.
(2) A less perfect example:
Guan guan jyu ju, zai he zhi zhou,
Yao tiao shu nyu, jun zi hao qiu.
We do see implied diviations from modern Chinese, because vowal u is
not yu (u with two dots), and vowal ou (zhou is close to English word
Jo)is not iu (close to English word you). But they are so close !
Basically, over 90% of the poems in Shi Jing dated from Zhou dynasty
(1027-771 BC) to the Spring & Autumn Period (770-476 BC) still rhyme in
modern Chinese.
The reason that when we read Shi Jing in modern Chinese and still
appreciate those poems as poems (damn good poems) with virtually no
compromise, is that the modern Chinese must be very closely or directly
descend from ancient Chinese language, with which those ancient poems
were actually written some 3 thousand years ago.
For more about Shi Jing, see
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/chinese/shijing/shijing2.htm
Such phonetic evidents do not help any theory that Zhou people spoke a
non-chinese language.
S. R. Ramsey in The languages of China, observed that "
> By comparison [to Middle English and Mondern English] the classical
> poems are mute. The modern reader does not hear a Tang verse the way
it
> sounded when it was written.
I am not sure what "mute" really mean from the above brief remark. But
we do know that the classicaly poems were actually songs that were
written to sing, not to read. Now we still write classical poems, but
to read, rarely to sing.
However, 90% of the ancient classic poems can be read in any Chinese
dialect without losing rhymes. The pronounciation changes from madarin
to Shanghai dialect or cantonese are so regular that generally poems
can be written in one dialect, and appreciated in another dialect
without strange feelings.
This in turn, suggests that these dialects are from a common origin.
As a result, the
> only ancient Chinese we know is the "Middle Chinese" Berhard Karlgren
> reconstructed from the Qieyun. Therefore, there is no way to find the
> Zhou language you say we should study.
As I mention earlier, a lot of information is preserved in poems and
the structures of the characters, so that I strongly feel that the
language of Zhou people is nothing but an archaic Chinese language.
> But if we compare the sound of contemporary and ancient Chniese
> characters and there alleged meanings to Mande and Dravidian languages
> we find many identical terms. This supports the view that the ancient
> Chinese could have spoken Mande and Dravidian languages.
>
The space to allow the Zhou language to be non-Chinese is, as I proved
in the above Shi Jing examples, is very narrow. (But I am interested in
seeing first hand information on this)
> It was not until
> after 1913, that the Putoonghua [Common Language ] was standardized.
> Mandarin was called Mandarin Guanhua "language of the officials"
> Ramsey in The Languages of China observed that up to
1913 "Regionalism
> had masked a linguistic dilemma.
The definition of Mandarin might be different when from different
persons. To a Chinese from Chinese mainland, Mandarin nowadays refers
to any or all dialects in northern China, rather than a language of
officials.
When Mandarin means language of officials, it should mean the dialect
used in the court or by the emperors during the dynasty days.
Let's take the last dynasty Qing as an example. Records show that the
Qing Emperors were raised in a royal villa in north eastern China
(close to Beidaihe, the place that CCP Politburo members often meet
during summer times and make important decisions). The dialect of that
small place must be the Mandarin that early Jesuits and early Purtugese
referred as Mandarin, because the Qing Emperors were very likely
speaking that dialect.
When a young prince became Emperor, his dialect becomes favourable and
fashionable, and his dialect became officially or un-officially the
official dialect.
A large number of the present day news announcers of Radio stations in
Chinese mainland are still from places close to Beidaihe, where Qing
princes were raised, simply because no one else can be so good in
Mandarin pronounciation than them.
Mandarin is not *invented* language.
> > : You will discover, that when you study Chinese their is no
one
> > : "Chinese" language. Most native Chinese speak Cantonese. To
> > : provide for great government in China the Chinese invented
> > : Mandarin Chinese.
As I explained, this is wrong.
It is in Mandarin that all Chinese learn to write.
> > : As a result, Mandarin Chinese, for example is mainly a literate /
> > : written language used to unify the Chinese people.
The earliest effort to influence the spoken language of government
officers was probably from Qian-Long emperor of Qing, only because he
mis-understood a Cantonese official's oral report in a military action.
Qian-Long ordered to stop the national officer qualificaiton exam in
Canton area for a period of time as a warning. No evidents showed that
he tried to change the dialect of ordinary cantonese.
China has been a unified country because of a lot of reasons that can
not be discussed in this short letter. A girl from Canton does not have
any prejudice against marrying a boy from Heilongjiang (north eastern
Chinese province with Sino-russian border), or the other way. Some of
us have a lighter skin color and some have darker skin color, not to
mention the other differences in body in and we never developed any
idea of prejudice.
Despite different dialects, generally we share the same grammer, the
same writing system, and similar if not identical customs, etc..
Mandarin is only a written language? Very wrong or confusing.
jeff...@my-deja.com
>Hi Jeff
Mr. Winters:
Thanks for reply. I went to your website and I am interested in the
mentioned similarities between Chinese and Manding, though I do not
agree with you on the existence of Black race in ancient China.
I spent some difficult minutes in figuring out the Chinese words in
obviously different pin-yin systems in your posting, and I believe I
got most of them, and I am giving a list of those words in Mandarin pin-
yin (Chinese mainland) in the following
gien: Qian (no longer in use in modern Chinese)
xiun: (seems a typo of Xuan or Xuan in another pin-yin system) Xuan is
no longer in use
in modern Chinese, but frequently appear in ancient writings.
xuan, Xuan (seems repeating)
hek: Hei (The most popular word for black in modern Chinese)
mek: Mo (dark dirt or ink powder, black)
wu : seems to be cantonese pronounciation of Mo
hwan, yuen, (no idea)
and I can add more:
Zi, Qing, ...
however, due to the nature of the material available to ancient people,
none of these word in ancient Chinese means pure black. Any dark blue,
dark brown, dark green is in general close to some of all of those
words in the ancient use.
The Ode named Sang Yu (it should be Sang Rou in Mandarin) is one of the
folk songs collected by Confucius (or his pupils) in the Book of Songs
(Shi Jing) . The folk songs should be from Western Zhou dynasty (1027-
771 BC) to the Spring & Autumn Period (770-476 BC). Note there is no
evidents to link any of these songs to Shang dynasty.
From the content of this song, it should from a violent war period,
very likely the same period of Confucius (551-479 BC), when the King of
Zhou lost his influence over several hundred feudal dukedoms, and those
dukedoms waged wars against each other for anything, threatened King of
Zhou for certification of higher nobleship, and wars broke out almost
on a daily basis. Only this period fits what is described in the song:
every state is destroyed, almost all the young people died in battle
fields.
To read this song in Chinese or English in completeness, go to:
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/chinese/shijing/AnoShih.html
and then search for "Sang Rou". The following is the first two
paragraphs of its English translation :
Luxuriantly is that young mulberry tree ,
And beneath it wide is the shade ;
But they will pluck its leaves till it is quite destroyed .
The distress inflicted on these [multitudes of the ] people ,
Is an unceasing sorrow to my heart ; --
My commiseration fills [my breast] .
O thou bright and great Heaven ,
Shouldest thou not have compassion on us ?
The four steeds [gallop about] , eager and strong ;
The tortoise-and-serpent and the falcon banners fly about .
Disorder grows , and no peace can be secured .
Every State is being ruined ;
There are no black heads among the people ;
All are reduced to ashes , [as it were] , by calamity .
Oh ! alas !
The doom of the kingdom hurries on .
... ...
It may be interesting to note that some of the sentences from this song
or poem are still popularly cited by comptemporary writers:
Da Feng You Sui
(big wind has its path, or there are traces for big winds)
And more interetingly, the following one is where the four word phrase
Jin Tui Wei Gu first appeared.
Jin Tui Wei Gu:
stuck in a hole, difficult to move forward or backward, dilema.
This four word phrase frequently appears in daily talks writings,
newspapers, novels of modern Chinese, etc, but I bet most of the people
who use it do not actually know it was first coined in this song.
OK. Now let's look at the sentence with the "black heads". In Chinese,
it reads:
Min/ Mi /You /Li
Literally, it means the following (the ordering of Chinese is different
from English):
People /rarely /have or there be /black
or "There are rarely black among people". Obviously it means young
people (with black hair instead of gray or white hair) are rare. Where
were the young people? Died in battle fields.
To Chinese, a young person is always black in hair, and a white
head refers to an older person, and this is very natural considering
that fact that the only hair color of mongoloid is black when young,
and white/gray when old.
Using hair color to refer age is throughout ancient as well as modern
literature in my country, and appears to be very consistent for so
many milleniums.
An old parent seeing his/her child die, even today, is referred as a
white head sees a black head gone. When I was in college, my English
teacher, an American, had his natural western gray color, and we joked
a lot about his age and his color.
I am really surprised that this can be mis-interpreted as evidents of
the existence of a Black race, and even developed into a Black Shang or
Black Xia theory.
Case closed :-)
rgds
Jeff
cwin...@kiwi.dep.anl.gov
This is just a discussion of contemporary chinese interpretation of
ancient text. Min li means "black people", not young people or dark
green/blue people.
C.A. Winters
cwin...@kiwi.dep.anl.gov
Hi Jeff
You are wrong about the role of Chinese legends in Chinese archaeology.
These legends have help Chinese archaeologist find the monuments of Xia.
In ancient times the fundamental political unit of the Chinese was
the yi or "walled city". These yi, were organized into small or large
guo (states). each guo,m was known as a shih. The cities were surrounded
rammed earthen walls.
Jeff you seem to be unaware of the use of Chinese "legends" in the
discovery and excavation of Xia and Shang sites. The Xia dynasty has
remained an enigma for much of this century. Much of the history for the
Xia dynasty comes from legends recorded by the Chinese annalists. Today
Chinese archaeologist have began to make positive steps in
reconstructing aspects of the Xia period.
In the Chinese "legends" we discover that the black people of Xia
lived in walled yi (cities). The walls around the cities were built
layer upon layer. These walls are referred to as hangtu Chinese
tradition allege that Gun, began the pounding of city walls or hangtu.
The traditions claim that Gun built a city and called it Yangcheng. The
city of Yangcheng is mentioned in many Chinese annals. In the Bamboo
Annals we learn that "Among the descendants of Xia, Yu resided in
Yangcheng". In the Shih ben, we read that "the capital of Xia was at
Yangcheng". Mencius says "Yu yielded to the son of Shun of Yangcheng".
In the first section of the Zhou Yu, in Guo Yu it is written that "n
former times the cradle of Xia was at the foot of Chuangshan". Chungshan
has been identified as Sungshang in Dengfeng in Henan.
Fu Qian , an historian of the Han dynasty claimed that ruins of Xia
were located "between the Fenhe and Kuaishui rivers". In this area
Chinese archaeologist have discovered the Longshan culture site of
Taosi.
Taosi is located near the confluence of the Kuishui and Fenhe
rivers. Sima Qian, another Han historian wrote that Shu Yu, of the
western Zhou dynasty established his city on the ruins of a Xia site
"east of the Huanghe and Fenhe rivers".
The textual history of the Xia is synthesized in the Shih
zhi. This evidence was used by Hsu Husheng of the Chinese Institute of
archaeology to find the Xia-xu "ruins of Xia". Using these sources Hsu
was able to hypothesized that the center for traditional Xia culture was
the Loyang plains and the Dengfeng and Fenhe river valley regions. It
is in this area that we find the remains of the Erlitou culture, which
is radio-carbon dated to around 1800-2100 BC., much too early for the
Shang civilization.
Another Chinese archaeologist An , using the traditional
literature found that Gaocheng ( 40 kilometers southwest of Zengzhou) in
Dengfeng county, was Yangcheng.
At Guocheng archaeologists found rammed earth walls around the city,
like those mentioned in the ancient traditions. They also found bronze
vessels.
This evidence makes it clear that the so-called Chinese myths
record real facts that have help contemporary archaeologist find out
about their past.
C.A. Winters
Malandrin~{4sBm;*So~}
I read that Si Jing rhyme best in Hakka dialects.
http://www.south.nsysu.edu.tw/group/NTUHakka/hdict/hdict.htm
Malandrin~{4sBm;*So~}
I read that Si Jing rhyme best in Hakka dialects.
http://www.south.nsysu.edu.tw/group/NTUHakka/hdict/hdict.htm
>
>
Dylan Sung
:I read that Si Jing rhyme best in Hakka dialects.
:http://www.south.nsysu.edu.tw/group/NTUHakka/hdict/hdict.htm
Funny you should just give a dictionary link. It doesn't say anything about
Shijing being best in Hakka dialects :/ However, it and other southern
dialects still may have good rhyming in some of the old poetry, but as to
which is "best", I wouldn't like to say.
Info about the original posters seems a little slim.
:On Thu, 08 Feb 2001 16:56:02 GMT, jeff...@my-deja.com wrote:
:
:>> > {"Somebody" wrote the following}
:>> > : You will discover, that when you study Chinese their is no
:>> > : one "Chinese" language. Most native Chinese speak Cantonese. To
:>> > : provide for great government in China the Chinese invented
:>> > : Mandarin Chinese.
:>
:>As I explained, this is wrong.
"Somebody" needs a bigger representative sample of the population. As
jeffyan77 rightly points out, most native Chinese don't speak Cantonese.
Dyl.
Hong YAN
> I read that Si Jing rhyme best in Hakka dialects.
> http://www.south.nsysu.edu.tw/group/NTUHakka/hdict/hdict.htm
>
The origin of Hakka people were Chinese from northern China, speaking
northern dialect(s). They migrated to areas where southern dialects like
ancient cantonese were spoken, to escape civil wars. They brought better
technologies to those areas, and also caused hatred from native people.
Violent conflicts were recorded. Even very recently, a native non-Hakka
cantonese may not marry his daughter to a Hakka's son. Some Hakka who were
rejected by the native cantonese left for southern asia.
Hakka is Ke Jia in Mandarin. Ke Jia basically means new comer, it may be a
name given by native non-Hakka speaking people. Because of rare
intermarriage with native cantonese speaking people surrounding them, they
are also studied by biologists.
After the leave of Ke Jia people, the northern dialects evolved under the
influence of Mongolian , Manchu, as well as other languages from inner Asia,
while Ke Jia dialect was left un-changed and survived like a fossil. This
dialect is usually studied as a sample of ancient northern dialect, and
people tend to believe that phonetic research of ancient Chinese should be
based on this dialect.
FYI
The early CCP has a lot of Hakka speaking members and many of them became
important figures. The most important one was Ye JianYing, the paramount CCP
leader and a general with decisive influence over CCP army after Mao's
death. He actually plotted the crush of the Gang of Four including the wife
of Mao upon the death of Mao, and then chose (yes, chose) Deng XiaoPing to
be the head of the party. General Ye's son, Ye XuanPing became Governor of
GuangDong (Canton) for many years after that, as a return of favor from
Deng, and until he was moved to Beijing by Jiang Zemin, he was actually
called the "King of GuangDong".
Some Hakka people have ancient noble or even royal origins. Some of them
keep a complete archive of their ancestry, so that many of them can still
tell you when and where (which village or town in which county of which
province of northern China), and because of what reason, their ancestors
left ZhongYuan (the center of China), and moved to their present place. They
may even show you a long list of names and brief histories of each of them,
of their ancestors.
There are other fosilized ethnic groups in southern provinces due to
isolation. A good example is Manchu ethnic group in several mountain
villages in FuJian province discovered 2 decades ago. Those villagers spoke
Manchu in their daily life when they were discovered (Manchu is a true
independent language that does not have anything to do with Sino-Tibetan
language family, just like Mongolian language)!
The existence of Ke Jia , a left-over of northern Chinese dialect, adds a
proof to the fact that Chinese language, including most of the dialects in
the north and the south, is a direct descendent of archaic Chinese language
in ancient documents, up to Western Zhou dynasty. I am often surprised that
it is used to counter that sometimes, due to lack of knowledge of this
ethnic group, their history and their language.
There are some dialects that may have some relations to other languages,
such as Polynesian, in some areas. But up to now, no one has learned to make
use of them to prove that Polynesians set up Shang dynasty. This may be
because people who claim the ownership of Shang civilization usually have
poor knowledge of anything about China, from Chinese language, modern or
ancient, history, modern or ancient, etc, and they depend on early research
works done by English speaking researchers, and second hand, third hand
translation works. The work on those dialects now are in Chinese and done by
Chinese researchers instead of English speaking people, and therefore
unknown to those Shang-claimers.
As I said, anything older than Western Zhou dynasty is weak in evidents. And
I have a feeling that maybe we would never know for sure, because evidents
may have been lost permanently.
However, the lack of evidents also makes other Shang-claiming theories
difficult.
Dylan Sung
Hong YAN wrote in message ...
:Malandrin wrote ....
:> I read that Si Jing rhyme best in Hakka dialects.
:> http://www.south.nsysu.edu.tw/group/NTUHakka/hdict/hdict.htm
:
:Some Hakka people have ancient noble or even royal origins. Some of them
:keep a complete archive of their ancestry, so that many of them can still
:tell you when and where (which village or town in which county of which
:province of northern China), and because of what reason, their ancestors
:left ZhongYuan (the center of China), and moved to their present place.
They
:may even show you a long list of names and brief histories of each of them,
:of their ancestors.
But other language groups also hold genealogical records, so it isn't
special to Hakka people that can 'trace' their roots to royal origins.
Cantonese records also converge on common ancestors with some Hakka people.
The implications: some Cantonese and Hakka are genetically related into the
distant past, and their language would have derived from a common source.
Dyl.
cwin...@kiwi.dep.anl.gov
Hi Jeff
In your review of the Chinese language you provide a simplified view
of Chinese historical linguistic. This view of the Chinese language
suggests that the pronunciation of Chinese has not changed in over 3000
years. This view is wrong.
It is clear that Xia and Shang spoke their own variety of Chinese.
In school we learn the myth that Chinese writing developed from
pictorial signs and pictures. The shell-and-bone characters were not
pictures. These characters which first appear on prehistoric pottery in
Middle Africa, and throughout China, were abstract signs/symbols used to
represent a word, not an idea or object. It was the Zhou and Han who
gave fanciful interpretations of the shell-and-bone writing. It was
during this period that we also see the introduction of some ideographic
signs to the Chinese syllabary.
The pronunciation of language changes over time. There is no way
the Chinese spoken today by Chinese is the same pronunciation of Chinese
in Xia and Shang times.
The Qieyun fanqie date back to the 6th century AD. This was 2000 years
after the fall of Xia.
When Lu Fayan compiled the Qieyun he used many sources of the
Chinese language spoken throughout China. This means that when the
Qieyun was written, it was already a complex compilation of Chinese
speech. The rhymed tables simply allow Chinese speakers to read Chinese
characters in the Mandarin ( or any other Chinese dialect), not the
dialect of the Xia and Shang Chinese.
As you note above, when two words in The Book of Odes was written
with characters possessing the same phonetic element, they probably once
sounded alike. Yet, it does not tell us what phonological features the
sign shared, so we don't really know the actual synchronic phonetic
values for the characters in The Book of Odes, when it was written. We
know that the pronunciation of Chinese in The Book of Odes differ from
Middle Chinese and the modern dialects.
For example, the character used to write tsuet 'soldier' , with a
final /-t/ was the phonetic for tswi' 'drunk', which fails to have a
final /-t/ in The Book of Odes. This indicates that at some point in the
history of the Chinese language the final /-t/ was dropped in tswi'. The
loss of the /-t/ shows a change in the language, evethough you maintain
that Chinese pronunciation have not changed.
In addition to evidence from The Book of Odes, Westerners have
recorded the pronunciation of Chinese lexical items for hundreds of
years. The Western spellings of Chinese terms during this period also
make it clear that the pronunciation of Chinese has changed over the
years as indicated in Chinese placenames e.g.,
Old New
Peking Beijing
Tientsin Tianjin
Sian Xi'an
The interesting think about these linguistic changes is that they have
occurred in a relatively short period of time.
The are other phrases from Chinese literature, which indicates that,
the Shang were black people. For example, Gu Jiegang (ed.), Gu shi bian,
volume 1 (Peking: Pu She, 1926) we find in the Yao dian chapter of the
Book of Documents, xuan niao "Black Bird", the founder of the Shang
Dynasty, he was also called Xuan Wang "Dark King". There is also mention
of another Shang leader called xuan mu "Black Oxen". Moreover, in the
Chunqui kong yan tu, it is reported that Confucius was born at Hollow
Mulberry subsequent to his mother dreaming of Xuan Di the "Black
Emperor".
In summary, the Chinese language as proven by the recording of the
Chinese language by Westerners and The Book of Odes, suggest that the
pronunciation of Chinese has changed over the years. The mention of the
Xuan "Black" rulers of Shang and the use of Li min "Black people" to
describe the Shang and Xia people by the Zhou, supports the view that
the Xia and Shang were "Black People/ Li Min.
C.A. Winters
Hong YAN
> special to Hakka people that can 'trace' their roots to royal origins.
> Cantonese records also converge on common ancestors with some Hakka
people.
>
> The implications: some Cantonese and Hakka are genetically related into
the
> distant past, and their language would have derived from a common source.
>
> Dyl.
>
That is correct
Hong YAN
>This view of the Chinese language suggests
>that the pronunciation of Chinese has not changed in over 3000 years.
That is not what I claimed. See my postings.
> It is clear that Xia and Shang spoke their own variety of Chinese.
Again, what they spoke may be permanently lost to a large extent (except
that later Chinese language survived as a direct descendent of the archaic
one).
What they wrote survived.
In
>school we learn the myth that Chinese writing developed from
>pictorial signs and pictures. The shell-and-bone characters were not
pictures.
I did not claim that they were.
>These characters which first appear on prehistoric pottery in Middle
Africa,
>and throughout China,
Hold on there. I would be very interested in knowing more about what has
been
found in Africa (What is the definition of Middle Africa?), but you have a
lot of
explanations to do before you can relate them, given the fact that they are
so far
apart geologically.
Pls provide the age of the pottery, and when did historic age begin, and
before when
is prehistoric in Africa.
>were abstract signs/symbols used to represent a word,
>not an idea or object.
Let's look at the Jia Gu Wen inscription of the character Gu. Gu is
still popularly used in modern Chinese in phrases like Hui
Gu (Review), Gu Pan (looking back and forth), Gu Tou Bu Gu Wei (watching the
head while forgetting watching the tail), etc.. The Jia Gu Wen version
of this character is a man looking back.
This is a picture.
Let's check the Jia Gu Wen character of si (think). It is a skull and a
heart,
representing a dispute on which organ is the organ of thinking: head or
heart.
This is an idea.
Look the word Qiu (prison). It is a man in a circle.
This is an picture plus an idea.
Pictorial representation of an object, such as the word man, warrior, moon,
ding
(large or huge bronze utensil for cooking), water, horse, chariot etc can be
found.
None of them is straight painting, but with understanding of the object to
some depth.
A good example is the character for man. It is a being walking with two
legs. This
represents the definition of human in their view. (And when our
archaeologists look
for the archaic humanoid fossils, they actually look for fossils that
satisfy this
definition.)
>It was the Zhou and Han who gave fanciful
>interpretations of the shell-and-bone writing.
This is a strange remark. First of all, I do not think Han people had any
idea of
the existence of Jia Gu Wen on turtle shells and bufflo bones, and the
interpreation
now we have are from contemporary researchers, instead of Han (200 BC)
people.
Second of all, I donot think Zhou people had any need to give fanciful
interpretations of Shang writing system. Zhou's writing system is obviously
derived and based on Shang's, and Shang people, with their culture,
survived almost entire Zhou dynasty. If a Zhou person had any curiosity
regarding the ritual or culture of Shang, he would simply go visit Shang
people
and find answers (Yes, there was at least one man did and we have
very good records about when he did, why he did.
That person's name is Confucius).
Shang people, their ritual, their upper class people, their culture,
did not just disappear after their defeat by Zhou. The first King of Zhou
accepted the surrender of Shang, and then Shang's royal family members were
made into the
principality of Song state, and could keep their ritual formality (Shang
Li), their
culture, and at least a part of their slaves and treasure.
See http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndydb/2000/11/d9-wu.b10.html for the exact
year
that Shang ended, and at the same time, read:
http://www.huaren.org/heritage/id/111100-01.html
The son of the last King of Shang was made a duke of Zhou dynasty and lived
into
Zhou. He plotted a conspiracy with the younger brothers of the King of
Zhou, and was finally killed. His feudom, the land promised by the King of
Zhou,
was given to his uncle, an elder (half) brother of the last King of Shang.
His rank
was archduke ('Shang Gong', namely, higher ranking duke). Duke Shang's
ranking was secondary probably only to the crown prince of Zhou.
With the endorsement from Shang's royal family, the King of Zhou avoided
voilent
takeover of each of the feudal lords of Shang by force. Zhou's efforts
turned
out to be very successful, and Shang was actually absorbed into Zhou dynasty
smoothly with minimal violence.
Therefore a large portion of Shang's upper class people survived the change
of power. Another person ichow in this newsgroup pointed out the same
fact in his postings, but it seems that you did not pay attention to his
points.
The lower class people of Shang was not touched, and they simply became the
lower
class people of Zhou dynasty. At least a branch of Shang troops stayed
defiant
and refused to surrender to the King of Zhou, and they escaped to the east
seashore
and took off there, according to some historians, and no one knew where
they'd gone.
Zhou took over the culture of Shang, and made itself more Shang than
Shang itself. As a result, Shang's culture spreaded to the south of Yangtze
river.
Yes, Shang rulers continued the oracle bone inscriptions and divine telling,
and
there have been 15000 pieces of oracle bones discovered that belong to Zhou.
Later on,
Zhou developed a more mathematicallised way to do fortune telling, and
the theory is summarized in I Jing (Book of Variations).
However, Zhou stopped the terriable custom of human sacrifice of Shang which
should
be somewhat similar to that of ancient American Indian culture. It is
obvious
that Confucius was not even aware of human sacrifice of Shang, and this
indicates
that Shang custom had been completely forgotten then.
The adaptibility of Zhou made Zhou the longest dynasty in Chinese history:
900 years.
The reason that we are very sure Shang noble people and their descendents,
with
their legacy of culture, actually survived almost the
entire Zhou dynasty, is from the records of Confucius.
Confucius had Song ancestry (and therefore some people suggested that he
might also be a descendent of noble people of Shang), though he was born in
Lu,
instead of Song. He had a dream of going back to Song when he was young, and
study
the ritual, as well as social structures of Shang, in search for a solution
to the
violent social disturbances in his time. He said:
"The Shang based its propriety on that of the Yin, and what it
added and subtracted is knowable. The Zhou has based its propriety on that
of
the Shang and what it added and subtracted is knowable. In this way, what
continues from the Zhou, even if 100 generations hence, is knowable."
Obviously, 500 years after the takeover by Zhou, Shang's legacy was still
reserved
in Song, and the above witness of Confucius means that the civilization of
Zhou,
at least as it appears to Confucius, was based on that of Shang, with what
was added
and subtracted. Amusingly, he was actually talking about *us* - 100
generations after his
time (Assume 25 years per generation, and we are 2500 years after him.)
The last time that Shang family offered sacrifices to their ancestors was
probably 286 BC
in the state of Song according to records.
In 221 BC, the state Qin finally reunited these run-away Zhou feudal states,
largely by
force. The First Emperor of Qin built his tomb with several thousand
terracotta warriors. Each warrior sculpture has a unique face, and very
likely
shaped after a unique human model. None of them looks African, and everyone
of them
looks just like present day Chinese.
Several thousand human skeletals have been found in Shang tombs, and the
huge royal
tombs of the 11 kings ruled in Anyang have also been located, with over a
thousand
noble tombs surrounded, and numerous human skeletals. None of the skeletals
is
Negroid. Claiming any of these kings to be Negroid has serious a problem of
denying
what you can see with your eyes.
There is a lot of records about state Song - its rulers, upper class
as well as lower class people, its ritual, its arts, its military, its
traditions,
the relationships and communications between Song and its fellow states,
etc. To tie these people to black race, you have to make an awful lot of
denials of evidents as well as research studies, archaelogical discoveries,
and a
lot of misinterpretation.
As Chinese has been a nation that worships ancestors, a Chinese surname
means a lot
than more than just a name. A lot of historical information can be found in
the origins
of the surnames, distribution and migration of the people with the surnames.
Modern Chinese with the following surnames may be descendents of Shang royal
and
noble families.
1. Tang (Tung) (Taken from the founder of Shang dynasty: Shang Tang)
2. Song (or Sung)
3. Wen
4. Kong (Kung, Hung, surname of Confucius)
5. Fu (Foo)
6. Zhong (Chong)
7. Qiu (Khu, Kau)
8. Xu (Hsu)
9. Lu (Loh, Low)
10. Ding (Ting)
11. Pan (Poon)
12. Li (Lai)
13. Li (Lee)
14. Luo (Law)
15. Kang (Hong)
16. Mao (Mo)
17. Guo (Kuo, Kuok, Kwok)
18. Du (Tu, Do)
19. Wang (Wong, Ong, Heng)
20. Gu (ku)
21. Xue
22. Lu
23. Ji (Also the surname of the royal family of Zhou dyansty)
24. Dai (Tai)
25. Peng (pang)
26. Huang (Wong, Hwang, Oei, Ooi)
27. Xia (Hsia, Ha)
There are several hundred surnames survived. The study of origins of Chinese
surnames is an interesting science. For more, see:
http://www.yutopian.com/names/.
>It was during this period
>that we also see the introduction of some ideographic signs to the Chinese
>syllabary.
Define "this period"
> The pronunciation of language changes over time. There is no way
>the Chinese spoken today by Chinese is the same pronunciation of Chinese
>in Xia and Shang times.
I do not think anyone would disagree with that.
>The Qieyun fanqie date back to the 6th century AD. This was 2000 years
>after the fall of Xia.
> When Lu Fayan compiled the Qieyun he used many sources of the Chinese
>language spoken throughout China. This means that when the Qieyun was
>written, it was already a complex compilation of Chinese speech. The rhymed
>tables simply allow Chinese speakers to read Chinese characters in the
>Mandarin ( or any other Chinese dialect), not the dialect of the Xia and
>Shang Chinese.
I do not use any tables when I read poems as old as those in Book of
Songs to those written in Tang and Song dynasties (the times Hakkas made
their
exodus) and later ones.
> As you note above, when two words in The Book of Odes was written
>with characters possessing the same phonetic element, they probably once
>sounded alike. Yet, it does not tell us what phonological features the
>sign shared, so we don't really know the actual synchronic phonetic values
>for the characters in The Book of Odes, when it was written.
What I claim is that the fact that the likely sounded characters are still
sounded alike contributes to the proof that modern Chinese is a direct
descendent
of the archaic one.
>We know that
>the pronunciation of Chinese in The Book of Odes differ from Middle Chinese
>and the modern dialects.
> For example, the character used to write tsuet 'soldier' , with a
>final /-t/ was the phonetic for tswi' 'drunk', which fails to have a
>final /-t/ in The Book of Odes. This indicates that at some point in
>the history of the Chinese language the final /-t/ was dropped in tswi'.
You are wrong double. First of all, you are reading the version of Ode in a
certain
romanization system, that was invented quite recently (later than 1880), and
can in no way reflect anything older than that. Second of all, you are
confused
by different romanization/pronounciation systems.
Here are the Mandarin ones;
tsuet: Zu
tswi : Zui
I believe that your example with an "t" is from a certain Cantonese
romanization system. The "t" simply means that you should pronouce a short
vowal
instead of a long one, the "t" is silent and should not be pronouced. You
can
still find a lot of "t" in Hong Kong. All these "t" are silent without
exception.
(Sometimes, and "h" is attached, simply to mean that the vowal should be a
long vowal.)
Here is my example. The Hong Kong movie star Jo Yun-Fat is the actor that
played
Siamese King in the recent Holliwood movie Anna and King. His name is
pronouced as
Zhou Run-Fa in Mandarin. The fancy "t" in Fat is silent.
Remember, these pronounciation/romanization systems:
(1) are pretty recent, e.g., the Wade-Giles system first appeared in late
1880.
(2) are based on some European alphabets such as those of Italian, English,
Purtugese
or German
(3) favour a certain Chinese dialect, such as Cantonese, Fujianese, or
Mandarin.
(4) used different ways to represent those consonants that are missing from
any European language
(5) map vowals in Chinese to different vowals in their system, simply
because
those vowals are not any of them.
When you hear someone whose first language is Chinese speaks English, you
may
notice that he or she can not even make vowals correct. This is due to a
simple fact that Chinese vowals, such as a, e, ae, ai, i, u should all have
two dots.
Similar things may happen when an English speaking person tries to learn to
speak
Chinese. He may mistake a with two dots to be a or e, though it is neither.
Mr. Winters, you can not find any truth in the discrepancies between
different
pronounciation / romanization systems other than this one:
they are so messed up.
>The loss of the /-t/ shows a change in the language, evethough you maintain
>that Chinese pronunciation have not changed.
(1) There has never been a vocal "t", as I explained in the above.
(2) The documents with pronounciation recorded are dated very recent.
(3) I do not maintain that the pronounciation of Chinese never changed,
what I claim is that the fact that likely-sounded characters still sound
alike
contributes to the proof that modern Chinese is a direct descendent of the
archaic one. see my previous postings more carefully.
The European documents that may possibly have pronounciations with "t"
recorded can not be older than Ming Dynasty (A.D. 1368-1644) and most likely
in
Qing dynasty (A.D. 1644-1911). Before 1880, there was virtually no
consistent
systems to record Chinese pronounciations except some ad hoc and sporadic
trials of
non-specialists, and after 1880, there were several pretty messed up
systems.
> In addition to evidence from The Book of Odes, Westerners have recorded
>the pronunciation of Chinese lexical items for hundreds of years. The
>Western spellings of Chinese terms during this period also make it clear
>that the pronunciation of Chinese has changed over the years as indicated
>in Chinese placenames e.g.,
> Old New
>Peking Beijing
>Tientsin Tianjin
>Sian Xi'an
>The interesting think about these linguistic changes is that they have
>occurred in a relatively short period of time.
This is misleading. The early western documents on China by Europeans used
different pronounciation/romanization systems based on different Chinese
dialect and European language from which the alphabets were borrowed.
One of the most widespread pronounciation system was Wade-Giles system,
which gives romanization of the above names that you named Old chinese
pronounciation. The the column that you call New chinese pronounciation
is nothing but pin-yin.
W-G and pinyin give different romanization results simply because of
the fact the they are differenct romanization systems and different Chinese
dialects the systems were based, and does not reflect the changes of our
tongue over time.
The creator of Wade-Giles system was Thomas Wade, the first professor in
Chinese language of Cambridge University, he lived in China in mid 1800.
Wade created the earliest version of Wade system, which was modified by
Herbert Giles, who made the first English/Chinese dictionary.
Wade-Giles system is still popular outside Chinese mainland. Actually when
I was in junior high school in Tianjin (Tientsin in W-G) in 1976 to 1979,
while modern pin-yin was taught in Chinese courses, my name was still
spelled
in Wade-Giles system by my English teacher. So that instead of Yan, my
family
name is spelled Yen in W-G. It was in my senior high school that Wade-Giles
system was completely replaced by pin-yin system in English courses.
There are several Chinese consonants that are missing from European
languages,
not to mention tones. This makes it difficult to really map the Chinese
pronounciation to any European alphabets without inventing those missing
consonants. If I base my discussion on Mandarin, the following pin-yin
consonants are missing from English: j, q, r, x, zh, (y), z
PINYIN WADE-GILES PRONOUNCE AS-
b p b as in "be", aspirated
c ts', ts' ts as in "its"
ch ch' as in "church"
d t d as in "do"
g k g as in "go"
ian ien
j ch j as in "jeep"
k k' k as in "kind", aspirated
ong ung
p p' p as in "par", aspirated
q ch' ch as in "cheek"
r j approx like the "j" in French "je"
s s, ss, sz s as in "sister"
sh sh sh as in "shore"
si szu
t t' t as in top
x hs sh as in "she" - thinly sounded
yi I
you yu
z ts z as in "zero"
zh ch j as in "jump"
zi tzu
for a comparison on the romanization results for names of popular chinese
cities
by W-G and pinyin, see http://www.orientaided.com/wade.htm
In Wade-Giles system, x is spelled as s or hs in different situations, q is
spelled as ch', and j also ts, zh as ch'.
It is very strange to a Chinese speaking person, to see the sound
represented in pinyin
as x is represented as s, becaue there is another consonant that is close to
s,
and sounds very different from x, which is also denoted as s.
My Taiwanese colleague has a family name Hsu, which should be Xu in pin-yin.
In
case you do not know what dialect a Taiwanese speaks, it is mandarin.
This W-G system becomes worse when I see what seems to be a "B" is spelled
as
"P", "D" as "T", and Daoism becomes Taoism.
It might be interesting to mention that in Japanese, sh is actually
x in pin-yin and they do not have a English sh, and japanese ch is q in
pinyin,
and they do not have an English ch. It is Ok for Japanese romanization
system to
identify q as ch, x as sh, but it means a degenerated sound table in
chinese.
FYI:
Americans can not pronounce the following Japanese correctly:
sushi or sushu (Japanese food),
shiseito or shuseito(a Japanese cosmetics manufacturer)
To see more on the weak points of W-G system , see
http://dionysia.org/chinese/language/wade-giles.html
What might be more confusing is that W-G favours cantonese, and pin-yin
favours
Mandarin.
Pin-yin was created by Chinese students returned from overseas and got
support
from CCP. Before CCP took over China, they actually experimented in teaching
Pin-yin in their schools to completely replace Chinese characters, with the
encouragements from Russians.
The simplicity of pin-yin over other romanization systems is that it
does not pretend that the alphabets for q, x, zh, r etc are anything
that can be found from any European language. It simply invents them: q for
the consonant close to English ch but not, x for the consonant close to
English
sh but not, zh for the consonant close to English j or dg but not, and use j
simply for the other consonant that is close to ji or dge but not, r close
to French
j but not.
In both pin-yin and W-G systems, vowals are in-accurate when
compared to the vowals in English or Italian. As I mentioned earlier,
my name is Yan in pin-yin, and Yen in W-G. but what it really is is "a"
with two dots. But anyway, pin-yin does a much better job than W-G, if one
does
not try to link it to any European alphabetical systems.
To see a list of comparisons of pinyin and W-G, see
http://acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~phalsall/texts/chinlng3.html
and
http://acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~phalsall/texts/chinlng1.html
Your statements on the change of our spoken language during last couple of
centuries
based on the analysis of W-G system, pin-yin system and other more messed up
romanization/pronounciation systems is incorrect, and likely due to a lack
of
knowledge of Chinese language. If this is what you have been researching,
then, man, an old Chinese saying better describes it: searching for fish
on a tree ;).
Depending on early works by European researchers or second or even third
hand translation
works makes things difficult for you to see things clearly.
This kind of mistake would not happen to a sinologist with a proper
training.
> The are other phrases from Chinese literature, which indicates that,
>the Shang were black people. For example, Gu Jiegang (ed.), Gu shi bian,
>volume 1 (Peking: Pu She, 1926) we find in the Yao dian chapter of the
>Book of Documents, xuan niao "Black Bird",
Legend goes to legend, science goes to science. A black bird can not give
birth to a human. A black bird is not black race.
Many people believe that the black bird worshipped in Shang, is nothing
but the Sun. The Shang god of the Sun was a black bird with tree legs on the
splendid disc. The character of Sun is also a disk with a black dot. It
seems that ancient Chinese observed sunspots, and they believed that the
definition
of Sun must include sunspots.
The sunspot observation by ancient Chinese may be surprising to some people.
The first dated records was in the year 28BC: "Heping reign period, 1st
year, 3rd month, day Guiwei, the rising sun was yellow; a black gas was
at the centre of the sun, like a coin". There are numerous sunspot
observations
that are believed to be earlier than this one, but not dated.
There were many other words used to describe the sunspots, and they are all
black:
melon, coin, gas, star, egg, but only black bird seems to have been
worshipped
as living being.
See
http://www.astro.uni-bonn.de/~pbrosche/iaucomm41/meetings/ga2000/as_li.html
and
http://crydee.sai.msu.ru/ftproot/pub/astronomy/sunspots/ANCIENT_DATA/Early_R
eports
Whatever that black bird was, I do not see why it means black race.
Must everything black be related to black race in your theory?
>the founder of the Shang
>Dynasty, he was also called Xuan Wang "Dark King". There is also mention
>of another Shang leader called xuan mu "Black Oxen".
This is a mistake of 1000 years.
King Xuan of Zhou was one thousand years after the foundation of Shang.
The founder of Shang was Tang. Xuan Wang was the title of one of the kings
of Zhou,
and the name of this king is Ji Jing (827BC to 782BC). As we know a lot
about the
royal family of Zhou, we should be very confident about who he was, what he
did.
Ji was the royal family name of Zhou and is still (an unpopular) Chinese
family name. Though 3000 years passed, I would not be surprised that some
nowadays
Chinese with this family could be descendents of royal family of Zhou.
I guess some Americans may have heard of a General Ji who
was believed to be involved in illegal donations to the Clinton's
presidential election.
Because the character Ji has a part that means female, some people suggest
that
this old family name means early matriachy history (passed from mother to
daughters
instead of father to sons), in its very early days (earlier than Zhou, of
course).
King Xuan of Zhou was 11th King of Zhou dynasty, 1000 years after the
foundation of Shang.
None of Zhou royal family was recorded to be a black race, and it is strange
to pick
the 11th one to be black without a comment of his forefathers.
The title of a kings of Zhou was given after his death (posthumus),
to reflect his legacy and virtue, with carefully political considerations by
the next king and his ministers. Chinese of Zhou dynasty had passed the
stage
of giving a name (not to mention an official title of a king) according to
his
body characteristics as American Indians often did.
>Moreover, in the
>Chunqui kong yan tu, it is reported that Confucius was born at Hollow
>Mulberry subsequent to his mother dreaming of Xuan Di the
>"Black Emperor".
If you believe in that, then the Japanese, who believe in the white crane
delivers
their babies, should all be whites.
Confucius may be a result of adultery, as some researchers suggested. His
father
was over 65 and his mother 17. I would not be surprised that his mother made
some
stories. Similar pattern can be found in many other countries, and may I
mention
the stories in the bible?
> In summary, the Chinese language as proven by the recording of the
>Chinese language by Westerners and The Book of Odes, suggest that the
>pronunciation of Chinese has changed over the years. The mention of
>the Xuan "Black" rulers of Shang
This is incorrect. You may have mistaken the period King Xuan of Zhou lived.
As I said, at least 11 kings of Shang have been found in a royal cemetary
near
Anyang, and they are not Negrod.
Xuan means a lot more than black, and it appears in the titles of many
Emperors
through out Chinese history. There is, for example, a King Xuan
Zong (founder) of Tang dynasty, whose tomb has just been found with several
hundred objects unearthed. There are numerous records, poems, archives about
this
Emperor, his wives, his father and grand father, his son and grandson, none
of
them has ever been described as a black race.
>and the use of Li min "Black people"
>to describe the Shang and Xia people by the Zhou, supports the view that
>the Xia and Shang were "Black People/ Li Min.
The proof to your black race claim is superficial, as I mentioned in the
above
the previous postings. The words were used to describe a variety of
different
things, including color of hair, clothes, ink powder, as well as
superstitions
and/or philosophies and birds, dreams, etc.
Again, Li Min is nothing but common people, as always, and min is almost
always used
in political terms, rather than one of a biological sense (which should be
ren, or man,
the word that is much older than min.)
The Xia becomes black Xia, when we still know so little about Xia? This is
bad research.
All I see from the evidents you showed me, is that you are confused by
Chinese ancient
superstitions, different pronounciation/romanization systems, strange
interpretation
of the meaning of different "black", mistaking legends as history,
misplacing the
time frame of historical figures, etc.
To reach your conclusion, you need more than just sporadic words appeared in
the ancient archives and misinterpret them. You are facing an awful lot of
facts, records,
archives, mainstream research conclusions, archaeological discoveries, as
well as
a modern Chinese language that is obviously a direct descendent of the
ancient one,
a modern writing system that is obviously a direct descendent of the archaic
one,
a modern Chinese culture that is an obvious direct descendent of the ancient
one,
and a modern Chinese nation that is an obvious direct descendent of the
ancient one.
You need an lot of denials against an awful lot of evidents that are against
your theory,
and a lot of misinterpretation of an awful lot of evidents that are not in
favour of
your theory. And most importantly, you have to ignore the mongoloid
skeletals found
in Shang's royal cemetery near Anyang.
Human remains that belong to pre-Shang, Shang, and Zhou periods have been
found,
and total numbers of individual human skeletals may be several thousand.
None of them
has been found to be a Negroid. In case you want to see know a few cases of
them, let me
start from Peking Man.
(0) There is considerable evidence of Homo erectus by the time of the Lower
Paleolithic
(the Paleolithic Period began c. 2,500,000 years ago and ended 10,000 years
ago)
at sites such as Lan-t'ien, Shensi; Ho-hsien, Anhwei; Yüan-mou, Yunnan; and,
the
most famous, that of so-called Peking man at Chou-k'ou-tien, Peking
Municipality.
The skulls found belonged to mongoloidals.
(1) Liang-Chu Culture burial (3500-2200 BC) at Ssu-tun
a young adult male
4 ceramic vessels, 14 stone and jade implements, 49 jade ornaments
24 jade rings and 33 jade ts'ung tubes
The skeletal is not a Negroid.
(2) Liang-Chu Culture burial (3500-2200 BC), a huge cemetery of T'ao-ssu,
over
1000 burials excavated, thousands more thought to remain . No Negroid found.
(3) Near the ancient Shang capital of Anyang is the site of Xibeigang.
Archaeologists
describe this site as the royal cemetery of the Shang monarchs. At the site
eleven very
large cruciform graves and 1,222 small graves were unearthed. It is possible
that these
are the graves of the eleven Shang kings recorded as having ruled from
Anyang over
a 273 year span. The evidence recovered from these grave sites have provided
the
most dramatic evidence of the nature of Shang kingship. The burials were
accompanied
by a large number of human sacrifices, the bodies, frequently with heads and
torsos
separated. Body parts were found around the central chamber and on the ramp
leading
down to it. Everything in and around these burial chambers suggests that the
deceased were people of power, wealth and honor. The tombs contained a rich
selection
of Shang art. In one particular tomb was found an outstanding collection of
stone
sculptures and bronze pieces.
No Negroid remains was found.
(4) The Shang burial at Sufuntun. Grave no. 1 at Sufuntun is the largest
Shang
tomb so far discovered outside Anyang. It consists of a rectangular burial
pit
with a sloping ramp in the middle of each side. In the center stood the
cruciform-plan
timber burial chamber, and below its floor a second pit containing a
sacrificial
dog and human victim. Five dogs and 47 further human victims were found in
different
parts of the tomb. Although the bulk of the grave-goods have been lost
through
tomb-robbing in antiquity, sufficient artifacts remain to indicate its
original
richness, including bronzes, carved objects of jade and other stone, fine
pottery,
and 3790 cowrie shells. Strings of cowrie shells, from the Pacific or Indian
Ocean, were used as a form of money in Shang China. At the northern end of
the burial pit were two large bronze axes with animal face designs. Battle
axes
were traditionally symbols of kingship, and together with the size of the
grave
suggest that the Sufutun tomb was the burial place of a local ruler.
Again, there was no Negroid remains found.
(5) In 1976, near Anyang, the last Shang capital, archaeologists uncovered a
Shang tomb, the only one that has been found intact. Tomb 5 contained the
burial of Fu Hao, referred to in the oracle bones as one of the consorts of
Wu Ding, twenty-first king of the Shang. The tomb, though modest in size,
contained more than fifteen hundred objects. In addition to Fu Hao's own
lacquered coffin were the skeletal remains of sixteen humans and six dogs.
Among the more than seven hundred jades were examples that date from the
Liangzhu culture, which must have been collected as
antiquities. Many bronze vessels were found, some of which were probably
used by Fu Hao during her life. Others, which bear her posthumous name
(Si Mu Xin), were probably cast as burial goods. Six or seven thousand
cowrie shells (which the Shang used as currency) had also been buried with
her.
No Negroid remains was found.
(6) Xiao Xuanqiao, archaeologists from Henan Province decided to recommence
excavations in this 4,000,000 square meter area. During the original
excavation
from 1995-1997, archaeologists located remnants of Shang Dynasty rammed
earth
walls and architecture. Among these remains, they uncovered over a hundred
sacrificial human bones, two burial pits, burnt stones, ten storage and ash
pits, which conatined pottery, bone and stone implements. Archaeologists
also
found what are believed to be mass sacrificial burials, concentrated
primarily
around the walls enclosing the site.
No Negroid remains was found.
(7) Archaeologists have found a 6,000-year-old tomb at a construction site
near the central Chinese city of Zhengzhou, the official Xinhua news agency
reported Monday.
The 2.5-by-1.5-meter stone-age tomb holds the skeletal remains of one body
and pots, bowls, ceramic jars, a bone needle and other artifacts.
The tomb was found 2 meters below ground in Zhoukou prefecture of Hunan
Province
No Negroid remains was found.
I would stop here. Without skeletals and bones of ancient Negroids in all
these
human remains, the black Shang claim is not a subject of science.
I reject the your black Shang theory, which is claim-based rather than
evidents-based.
I care more about the evidents rather than the final conclusion. Your
remarks give
me an impression that you care more about your conclusion rather than the
evidents.
The conclusion you are trying to reach is like an African elephant
and you have to pull it through the hole on a quilting needle, and the room
left
by Chinese history for Negroid's existence is less than that.
rgds
Jeff
hong...@worldnet.att.net
jeff...@my-deja.com
Please send me a copy if you reply. I do not seem to find your postings in
my news server recently.
Hong YAN
This is a picture.
This is an idea.
http://www.yutopian.com/names/.
Define "this period"
Remember, these pronounciation/romanization systems:
http://dionysia.org/chinese/language/wade-giles.html
http://acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~phalsall/texts/chinlng3.html
and
http://acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~phalsall/texts/chinlng1.html
romanization/pronounciation systems is incorrect, and likely due to a lack
of
lc...@nospam.lava.net
China, (1) that the genealogy records of the Shang Dynasty has been
preserved and is published online at
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Courtyard/1535/cha_pu.html, (2)
that the Shang Dynasty and people are of Shemite stock and are not of
the black skin race of people, and (3) that the Shang people are
related to those of the Chou Dynasty, who are, also, from ancient
Shemite stock.
anar...@abolishes.com
<nicke...@my-deja.com> writes:
>Obviously, there must be some relationship between China and Ancient
>America.
>
>In China, there are legends about the Holy Mountain in the east, gold and
>medicine that can cure anything.
>
>Look at the arts and culture of Shang dynasty, it is easy to think that they
>must have reached America.
>
>How is Olmec and Shang related?
>
>http://www.sinorama.com.tw/en/8605/605006e1.html
>
>How did Shang people reach America and why?
>
>Shang people were very good in sailing, and they use sea shell as
>currencies, the shell of sea turtle to forecast the future, and they love
>jade very much too.
>
Scholars in India claim a relationship between the Maya in Mexico, as well
. Do you know anything about
this?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No diffusionism intended perhaps we are dealing with an ancient worldwide
culture?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Hong Yan
The human remains found in AnYang Shang royal cemetery have proved that the Shang people were just like us: Mongoloidals.
Hong Yan
PS: Which "Chinese imperial family" do you *officially* represent?
lc...@nospam.lava.net wrote in article
<96pmrf$8c2$1...@mochi.lava.net> :
_______________________________________________
Submitted via WebNewsReader of http://www.interbulletin.com
Tony Ning Lew
Hong Yan <donot...@interbulletin.bogus> wrote:
>Dear emperor:
>
>The human remains found in AnYang Shang royal cemetery have proved that the Shang people were just
like us: Mongoloidals.
>
>Hong Yan
>
>PS: Which "Chinese imperial family" do you *officially* represent?
The one in Hawaii that begs for money and eats out of garbage cans.
Tony Ning Lew
><96pmrf$8c2$1...@mochi.lava.net> :
>>This is a quick notation on the history of the Shang Dynasty of
>>China, (1) that the genealogy records of the Shang Dynasty has been
>>preserved and is published online at
>>http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Courtyard/1535/cha_pu.html, (2)
>>that the Shang Dynasty and people are of Shemite stock and are not of
>>the black skin race of people, and (3) that the Shang people are
>>related to those of the Chou Dynasty, who are, also, from ancient
>>Shemite stock.
Lester, you're really an amazing man.
You claim to be an expert on Chinese Geneology.
You claimed to have read many documents on the subject,
including some "secret" family records.
Yet you have also written that you cannot read Chinese
save for a few characters.
How can you do deep research into Chinese geneology if
you can't even read Chinese?
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>Lester D. K. Chow and Associates,
Associates my ass. You've written that you're
a one-man operation which has never had a single
paying customer. That's not a business. That's
a pretend business.
Hong YAN
The first half of his geneology is a sheer fabrication, and the latter half
(after the founder of Shang) is a copy from Chinese history book for
elementary students.