Mao book
she...@yahoo.com
by Jung Chang and Jon Halliday
It seems to be an excellent and exremely well researched biography.
I'm wondering if anyone can tell me more of this book.. am I only
getting some of the story?
Any factual errors in e.g. starvation figures, purge histories, etc.?
Thanks - shevek
PaPaPeng
Easy. Just think of all the bad things man can do to mankind and say
its Mao's fault. Think in terms of millions, the bigger the better.
Then don't believe a word of it.
she...@yahoo.com
I'm not sure I follow you.
I'm looking for some info like, how are the translations? Are they
biased in some way? Is there a CCP sanctioned history? Are any of
these things denied 30 years after his death and why?
Thanks -
taisun
story about the great hero. You can only find the unknow story about
the Jung Chang.
she...@yahoo.com
taisun wrote:
> This book is a fiction from anti-China organization. There is no unkown
> story about the great hero. You can only find the unknow story about
> the Jung Chang.
>
>
Thanks for your response. This is the kind of information I'm looking
for. In particular, what parts are fiction? I'd love to hear some
details.
It seems from reading the book that an anti-China organization would
prefer to make Mao look good.
There is no anti-China sentiment in the book, at least as far as I have
seen.
But I do see an anti-Mao bias and would like to hear if anyone can find
specific errors.
Thanks -
PaPaPeng
Read
1. Red Star Over China by Edgar Snow.
2. Portrait of a Revolutionary by Robert Paine.
3. Read the WIKIPEDIA thumbnail sketch to get a quick idea of the
subject matter that is too vast to be absorbed from any single source.
Snow and Paine are among a select club of authors who actually met
and interviewed Mao over a number of years. They saw China during
those formative years to have a good idea of the forces involved in
that epic struggle. I wouldn't waste my time with the trash from Jung
Chang. One good indication is you will not find any legitimate author
of China quoting anything from Jung's book.
sha zu Kang(butcher Kang)
but I saw the interesting photos.
sha zu Kang(butcher Kang)
The photos is true.
sha zu Kang(butcher Kang)
my father told me a story: the guangzhou gov's head tao zhu made a
decision to provide 3 free trains to send hungry people to HK. but
only after 1 train, the gov( I do not know it is mao, tao, or other
high rank officials' order) changed its mind. the hungry people were
very angry and moved the locomotive out off the rail by hands.
demor...@aol.com
she...@yahoo.com wrote:
> taisun wrote:
> > This book is a fiction from anti-China organization. There is no unkown
> > story about the great hero. You can only find the unknow story about
> > the Jung Chang.
> >
> >
>
> Thanks for your response. This is the kind of information I'm looking
> for. In particular, what parts are fiction? I'd love to hear some
> details.
The most significant addition this book makes is that the Soviet
archives were opened and many previously unknown details about the
interaction between USSR and Mao are revealed. Jung Chang's husband and
coauthor is a Russian scholar.
demor...@aol.com
PaPaPeng wrote:
> On 5 Sep 2006 13:38:16 -0700, she...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >
> >taisun wrote:
> >> This book is a fiction from anti-China organization. There is no unkown
> >> story about the great hero. You can only find the unknow story about
> >> the Jung Chang.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Thanks for your response. This is the kind of information I'm looking
> >for. In particular, what parts are fiction? I'd love to hear some
> >details.
> >
> >It seems from reading the book that an anti-China organization would
> >prefer to make Mao look good.
> >
> >There is no anti-China sentiment in the book, at least as far as I have
> >seen.
> >
> >But I do see an anti-Mao bias and would like to hear if anyone can find
> >specific errors.
> >
> >Thanks -
>
>
> Read
> 1. Red Star Over China by Edgar Snow.
Red Star Over China has been shown to have been approved by Mao's CCP
lackeys. Unfortunately this is the version that has come to be believed
by many people.
> 2. Portrait of a Revolutionary by Robert Paine.
> 3. Read the WIKIPEDIA thumbnail sketch to get a quick idea of the
> subject matter that is too vast to be absorbed from any single source.
>
> Snow and Paine are among a select club of authors
Snow is among a select club of authors who sent his manuscript to PRC
to be "approved" by the CCP!
taisun
country. What did your father do for China? What do you do for China?
US's Jung Chang (Not a real name) doesn't do for China.
sha zu Kang(butcher Kang)
allowed to ask What it did and what it is doing?
I have the ability to do a lot for China, but I will do nothing for IT.
My father was a prisoner who held the keys. Right now most Chinese are
this kind of prisoners.
Stay in your CCP garbage dump.
peacenjoy
book. I realise that is really asking too much from a school drop out
whose life is concentrated on cyber space.
sha zu Kang(butcher Kang) wrote:
peacenjoy
retarded, because you claimed San Jose is not in the United States but
in Mexico.
What have you done for the United States other than draw social
security payments, Limp Dick?
Your father? You never knew your father.
peacenjoy
lady while she was not looking, didn't you? People don't leave books in
bus stops. Do you hang around bus stops too? So you are gay. You're too
dumb to know anything about book-crossing.
sha zu Kang(butcher Kang) wrote:
J.Venning
> sha zu Kang(butcher Kang) wrote:
>> around 1/20 to 1/10 chinese starved to die.
>> my father told me a story: the guangzhou gov's head tao zhu made a
>> decision to provide 3 free trains to send hungry people to HK. but
>> only after 1 train, the gov( I do not know it is mao, tao, or other
>> high rank officials' order) changed its mind. the hungry people were
>> very angry and moved the locomotive out off the rail by hands.
>>
> Don't ask what country can do for you, ask what can you do for the
> country. What did your father do for China? What do you do for China?
> US's Jung Chang (Not a real name) doesn't do for China.
>
J.
lechergod
to whom such sentence are spoken to.
citizens are beneficiaries and/or master,
only idiot will demand them to do for country, where they are the country.
it should be spoken to those congressman and/or politicans, who are
cheating the beneficaries to get elected !!!!
it is such politicans to do for countries, not the countries to do for them!!!!
that is why the moron president was shot !!!!!
J.Venning wrote:
---
Posted via news://freenews.netfront.net
Complaints to ne...@netfront.net
peacenjoy
Are you saying that President Kennedy was a moron? Now let's see, who,
according to you, was not a moron? Other than yourself, of course,
Doggie.
she...@yahoo.com
taisun wrote:
> Don't ask what country can do for you, ask what can you do for the
> country. What did your father do for China? What do you do for China?
> US's Jung Chang (Not a real name) doesn't do for China.
>
>
I liked the first part of your post above.. but it looks like Jung
Chang has done a lot for China. It is certainly a very pro-China book
she has written. Many Chinese heros are quoted and their stories told.
She seems to have strong respect for Chinese culture and history and
the lives of all citizens.
But my question was more concerning Mao.
And why do you say she is from the US?
she...@yahoo.com
PaPaPeng wrote:
> On 5 Sep 2006 13:38:16 -0700, she...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >
> >taisun wrote:
> >> This book is a fiction from anti-China organization. There is no unkown
> >> story about the great hero. You can only find the unknow story about
> >> the Jung Chang.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Thanks for your response. This is the kind of information I'm looking
> >for. In particular, what parts are fiction? I'd love to hear some
> >details.
> >
> >It seems from reading the book that an anti-China organization would
> >prefer to make Mao look good.
> >
> >There is no anti-China sentiment in the book, at least as far as I have
> >seen.
> >
> >But I do see an anti-Mao bias and would like to hear if anyone can find
> >specific errors.
> >
> >Thanks -
>
>
> Read
> 1. Red Star Over China by Edgar Snow.
> 2. Portrait of a Revolutionary by Robert Paine.
I probably should. These books are certainly discussed in detail in
the Chang biography, along with articles by Anna Louise Strong. That
would be a good place to start. I'll get a copy.
> 3. Read the WIKIPEDIA thumbnail sketch to get a quick idea of the
> subject matter that is too vast to be absorbed from any single source.
>
Which one? The Mao article seems to be on target with what I read in
Chang, though it does also speculate as to why may Chinese still
support and refuse to criticize him even after his death unlike e.g.
the Russian's attitude to Stalin. This is a bizarre kind of patriotism
that is difficult for some Americans to comprehend.
This is one thing I find interesting, my Chinese colleagues refuse to
talk about him at all.. as though they could still be sent to the labor
camps for their words or for being aritists. Why not vice-versa - why
doesn't the PRC censor pro-Mao writings?
> Snow and Paine are among a select club of authors who actually met
> and interviewed Mao over a number of years. They saw China during
> those formative years to have a good idea of the forces involved in
> that epic struggle. I wouldn't waste my time with the trash from Jung
> Chang. One good indication is you will not find any legitimate author
> of China quoting anything from Jung's book.
Really? You may be right.. any legitimate author would just go to her
sources directly, although many of her interviews may still not be in
the public records.
Thanks - shevek
sha zu Kang(butcher Kang)
> This is one thing I find interesting, my Chinese colleagues refuse to
> talk about him at all.. as though they could still be sent to the labor
> camps for their words or for being aritists. Why not vice-versa - why
> doesn't the PRC censor pro-Mao writings?
>
That is normal.
do you think Mao was the only one who harmed Chinese?
No. your Chinese colleagues or their parents also did something wrong
to harm other Chinese under the control of Mao. Some of them are CCP
members.
In China no one was innocent.
I believe they will refuse to discuss why they leave China.
peacenjoy
Or was it your parents, since you said, "In China no one was innocent"
?
sha zu Kang(butcher Kang) wrote:
peacenjoy
you have seen all the pictures. Did you jerk off while looking at those
pictures?
sha zu Kang(butcher Kang) wrote:
PaPaPeng
>Which one? The Mao article seems to be on target with what I read in
>Chang, though it does also speculate as to why may Chinese still
>support and refuse to criticize him even after his death unlike e.g.
>the Russian's attitude to Stalin. This is a bizarre kind of patriotism
>that is difficult for some Americans to comprehend.
Thank you for keeping an open mind and seeing the evidence for what
they obviously are although they do indeed appear bizarre.
I will quote Robert Payne's book, (Ed 1961), from page 1 no less.
"Remote, forbidding, hostile to the West, implacable in his demand
that China should have her place in the sun, he represented even in
those days a new kind of man: one of those who single-handedly
construct whole civilizations."
By now enough time had passed for the wounds to heal and for many
people to forget the details and for younger genrations not yet
learned enough to acquire an appreciation of the nuances of history.
Thus these people can only look at the results of what Mao had
wrought. And what an awesome and magnificient achievement. China
today is ascendant and unstoppable. The country is at peace and is
united, confident of our future. We have both the means and the
ability to reach any goal we set for ourselves. China owes her
achievements to no one. Even a schoolboy understands this. Even
those who had suffered horribly under Mao acknowledge this.
Without Mao, China would have been torn asunder first by external
forces, then by internal ones. Even when he himself was the cause of
internal disorder, yet there was order for his prestige was such that
no one ever considered replacing him. And China had no shortage of
talented and capable leaders who could have led the country. My
interpretation of China's unique history is it was just as well
China's growing pains occurred under his watch, painful, cruel, unjust
and devastating as they were. Having lived through that madness no
one will ever dream of appealing to personal charisma (cultism) or of
resorting to violent means to seek power again. For the foreseeable
future China will be rid of power struggles so ruinous to a country.
>This is one thing I find interesting, my Chinese colleagues refuse to
>talk about him at all.. as though they could still be sent to the labor
>camps for their words or for being aritists. Why not vice-versa - why
>doesn't the PRC censor pro-Mao writings?
True. If that person is from the mainland he would have only the CCP
version of history and one learns not to trust completely a single
source. Secondly when such a question is raised by a foreigner it is
usually the opening shot as to why China's system of governance must
fail. Mainlanders are rarely equipped to engage in such a debate. So
they avoid it. If you have participated in this SCC group for any
length of time, the same prejudices persist - an attack on China where
no amount of rebuttals will change the attacker's mind.
Mao's portraits no longer appear in public buildings nor private
homes. He's dead and whatever policies he had left behind no longer
relevant. There are way too many new things to learn and skills to
acquire for anyone to linger in the past. For those who actually
lived thorugh Mao's times, they weren't pleasant memories, and best
forgotten. Those who are interested in Mao and China's modern history
the material is extensive and freely available in the bookshops and in
the libraries.
Happy reading.
bmo...@nyx.net
she...@yahoo.com wrote:
> taisun wrote:
> > This book is a fiction from anti-China organization. There is no unkown
> > story about the great hero. You can only find the unknow story about
> > the Jung Chang.
> >
> >
>
> Thanks for your response. This is the kind of information I'm looking
> for. In particular, what parts are fiction? I'd love to hear some
> details.
>
> It seems from reading the book that an anti-China organization would
> prefer to make Mao look good.
Some of the regular posters on this newsgroup seem to have the attitude
that if you say negative things about anything Chinese (like Mao), you
are anti-China.
J.Venning
> Some of the regular posters on this newsgroup seem to have the attitude
> that if you say negative things about anything Chinese (like Mao), you
> are anti-China.
>
I have seen that here in scc, there are these two factions - the pro and the contra China - and this makes the whole newsgroup alive, despite the few lunatic repetitive posts. It would be a tragedy for any newsgroup, if everyone were to agree on every single issue: we might all as well join hands and sing Hallelujah.
J.
she...@yahoo.com
PaPaPeng wrote:
> On 6 Sep 2006 09:36:35 -0700, she...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >Which one? The Mao article seems to be on target with what I read in
> >Chang, though it does also speculate as to why may Chinese still
> >support and refuse to criticize him even after his death unlike e.g.
> >the Russian's attitude to Stalin. This is a bizarre kind of patriotism
> >that is difficult for some Americans to comprehend.
>
> Thank you for keeping an open mind and seeing the evidence for what
> they obviously are although they do indeed appear bizarre.
>
> I will quote Robert Payne's book, (Ed 1961), from page 1 no less.
> "Remote, forbidding, hostile to the West, implacable in his demand
> that China should have her place in the sun, he represented even in
> those days a new kind of man: one of those who single-handedly
> construct whole civilizations."
>
This seems to fit in with the picture painted by the recent biography,
although they are quick to point out that the style was to destruct
before reconstruction, with emphasis on the destruction.
> By now enough time had passed for the wounds to heal and for many
> people to forget the details and for younger genrations not yet
> learned enough to acquire an appreciation of the nuances of history.
> Thus these people can only look at the results of what Mao had
> wrought. And what an awesome and magnificient achievement. China
> today is ascendant and unstoppable.
Do you think this would have been true 50 years earlier if not for the
massive redirection and loss of resources in '30 - '70?
> The country is at peace and is
> united, confident of our future.
Mao would have been happier with war, right? How else to maintain
personal armies and fear and obedience?
> We have both the means and the
> ability to reach any goal we set for ourselves. China owes her
> achievements to no one. Even a schoolboy understands this. Even
> those who had suffered horribly under Mao acknowledge this.
>
Excellent. I'm glad to hear it, though I suspect there are still some
who credit the public figures for the efforts of the citizens.
> Without Mao, China would have been torn asunder first by external
> forces, then by internal ones. Even when he himself was the cause of
> internal disorder, yet there was order for his prestige was such that
> no one ever considered replacing him.
At least not without being purged..
> And China had no shortage of
> talented and capable leaders who could have led the country. My
> interpretation of China's unique history is it was just as well
> China's growing pains occurred under his watch, painful, cruel, unjust
> and devastating as they were. Having lived through that madness no
> one will ever dream of appealing to personal charisma (cultism) or of
> resorting to violent means to seek power again. For the foreseeable
> future China will be rid of power struggles so ruinous to a country.
>
Glad to hear it! This is one good thing about a problem with
government, we can learn to avoid it in the future.
> >This is one thing I find interesting, my Chinese colleagues refuse to
> >talk about him at all.. as though they could still be sent to the labor
> >camps for their words or for being aritists. Why not vice-versa - why
> >doesn't the PRC censor pro-Mao writings?
>
> True. If that person is from the mainland he would have only the CCP
> version of history and one learns not to trust completely a single
> source. Secondly when such a question is raised by a foreigner it is
> usually the opening shot as to why China's system of governance must
> fail. Mainlanders are rarely equipped to engage in such a debate. So
> they avoid it. If you have participated in this SCC group for any
> length of time, the same prejudices persist - an attack on China where
> no amount of rebuttals will change the attacker's mind.
>
My colleagues know I have huge respect for China, culture and
geography. Even some of the modern government. I hope they take my
historical queries as curiosity, and not somehow an "attack"..
> Mao's portraits no longer appear in public buildings nor private
> homes. He's dead and whatever policies he had left behind no longer
> relevant. There are way too many new things to learn and skills to
> acquire for anyone to linger in the past. For those who actually
> lived thorugh Mao's times, they weren't pleasant memories, and best
> forgotten. Those who are interested in Mao and China's modern history
> the material is extensive and freely available in the bookshops and in
> the libraries.
>
> Happy reading.
Thanks very much, I appreciate your well written response -
sha zu Kang(butcher Kang)
this was not the reason for what I left China.
My reason is very simple: more money.
sha zu Kang(butcher Kang)
photos.
how many pages did you read? Or you do not have this book?
PaPaPeng
>> By now enough time had passed for the wounds to heal and for many
>> people to forget the details and for younger genrations not yet
>> learned enough to acquire an appreciation of the nuances of history.
>> Thus these people can only look at the results of what Mao had
>> wrought. And what an awesome and magnificient achievement. China
>> today is ascendant and unstoppable.
>
>Do you think this would have been true 50 years earlier if not for the
>massive redirection and loss of resources in '30 - '70?
Until after the Long March http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_March
and Edgar Snow was able to publish his opus not many people, including
the Chinese themselves, knew about Mao or his revolution. In the
succeeding years the KMT lost whatever residual support it had and the
CCP became ascendent as having the correct path to restore China's
place in the world. The CCP had the support of the whole of China
and Mao was the philosopher-leader supreme. Had Mao died before the
60s his status as a God would have been unassailable As it was his
later actions caused enormous damage in lives and in property. We
Chinese cannot understand why that happend for Mao's primacy was
never challenged. He had nothing to prove. Future historians will
have to resolve Moa's place in history. But we have accepted the
events as a force of history that swept everything before it. It is
an achievement enough to those who survived that history spared them.
There is no place for personal recriminations about Mao for who are we
but mere mortals.
>
>> The country is at peace and is
>> united, confident of our future.
>
>Mao would have been happier with war, right? How else to maintain
>personal armies and fear and obedience?
On the contrary. Mao valued the lives of all Chinese dearly though he
was not hesitiant to sacrifice them in battle when the occasion
demanded that. His followers believed enough in Mao to undergo the
enormous hardships following him entailed. And at the end of the day
still fight ferociously for an ideal. Read Red Star. Also read Sun
Tzu's "The Art of War" http://www.sonshi.com/learn.html
>
>> We have both the means and the
>> ability to reach any goal we set for ourselves. China owes her
>> achievements to no one. Even a schoolboy understands this. Even
>> those who had suffered horribly under Mao acknowledge this.
>>
>
>Excellent. I'm glad to hear it, though I suspect there are still some
>who credit the public figures for the efforts of the citizens.
Without effective pragmatic leaders there will be anarchy. DXP is
credited with so many achievements that it muts be patently impossible
for all that to emanated from him personally. Actually what he did
was to allow reofrms and to let continue projects that did not do any
obvious harm and might do a lot of good. The old guard would have
terminated those economic reforms on marxist orthdoxy alone.
Somebody must be in charge. All these leaders need to do is to keep
peace and order. They should be open to new ideas and new methods
necessary to advance in a modern society. From the evidence that is
exactly what is happening. The government governs and competently.
The creative and entrepreunal spirit of the people can thrive in such
an environment. he results are spectacular.
>
>> Without Mao, China would have been torn asunder first by external
>> forces, then by internal ones. Even when he himself was the cause of
>> internal disorder, yet there was order for his prestige was such that
>> no one ever considered replacing him.
>
>At least not without being purged..
That was the most remarkable and incomprehensible thing. Mao never
had a palace guard or a PLA faction personally loyal to him. He ruled
by the sheer power of prestige alone. He did not have the power to
directly order anyone's death. Mao's primacy was never challenged.
All his lieutenants were giants of intellect, of achievement and of
courage and could have replaced Mao anytime had Mao just died. They
were all hardened revolutionaries whose lives had always been on the
line. They were not afraid of extreme hardships, of pain nor of
losing their lives. I can only speculate that they all knew that
without a legitimate succession process to replace Mao all their
efforts to replace Mao would have come to naught and their actions
would plunge China into even deeper chaos. Thus they accepted their
fates. These martyrs have since been rehabilitated and China owes
them a great debt for their sacrifice. If this paragraph comes across
as incomprehensible to you the only remedy I can recommend is that you
read deeper into the history of contemporary China and draw your own
conclusions. Do keep in mind that the only Revolutionary villian was
Marshal Lin Biao who was accused of attempting a coup. Even that
event is clouded by the absence of an authorative account. Was
everything that happened the stuff of myths?
>
>> And China had no shortage of
>> talented and capable leaders who could have led the country. My
>> interpretation of China's unique history is it was just as well
>> China's growing pains occurred under his watch, painful, cruel, unjust
>> and devastating as they were. Having lived through that madness no
>> one will ever dream of appealing to personal charisma (cultism) or of
>> resorting to violent means to seek power again. For the foreseeable
>> future China will be rid of power struggles so ruinous to a country.
>>
>
>Glad to hear it! This is one good thing about a problem with
>government, we can learn to avoid it in the future.
Do read Joshua Cooper Ramo's seminal paper on "The Beijing Consensus"
http://fpc.org.uk/fsblob/244.pdf
The author as captured much of essence of modern China and its place
in the world. What is happening in China today is of intense interest
among developing countries for China seems to provide a viable
development where a poor country can quickly modernize without the
political and social disruptions that had plagued them thus far.
lechergod
bmo...@nyx.net wrote:
>
>
> Some of the regular posters on this newsgroup seem to have the attitude
> that if you say negative things about anything Chinese (like Mao), you
> are anti-China.
>
---
lechergod
those foreign economic invaders and corrupt officials' dependants,
squeezing the mainlanders' blood and sweat, must have a different view !!!
if anyone is to believe in communism, he must be ensure to be corrupt
officials for all generations, so that they have unlimited freedom !!!
if not, they will taste the bitterness under the monopolization of finding
a job. that is why rst0wxyz the cunt has to flee out to serve the
old-wanton-lice's wet-noodle-penis with her dirty vagina.
make sure your decendants are all corrupt officials, so not to be on the
track of rst0wxyz the cunt.
"personal views due to their personal experiences" to those framed-up tiny
spots as tourists, are exactly what the communists' dog's have to say !!!!
that is the point : one's own view points !!!
netters !!
see your own view-point, as citizens to be mainlanders chaans ; or corrupt
officials to be more wealthy than european and/or american richers !!!
this communists' dog is not seeing or understanding the mainlanders' side's
view points !!!!
such communists' dog can only see the view-point of the tourists, who
enjoys cheap journeys and cheap prstitute-woman and yell out very good,
without knowing their advocation to communism will made their decendant to
be as miserable as the bed-maid-cunt, rst0wxyz the cunt.
here in scc, there are a lot of corrupt officials' children, who can
understand their parents' bitter-heart to send them to western free
countries in fear of their lossing power some days later !!!!
still want to bring communism to pollute the western countries !!!
chinese people is for more then 2 thousand years to be expected a good
leader, that made them to be cheated by betrayer-trustees as corrupt
officials to squeeze them to such miserable stage as more miserable than
chinks oversea.
that is why under communism's squeezing, mainlanders are willing to risk
their lives to be illegally and hidedly towed to all over the world to be
prostitute/bed-maid-cunt to serve old-wanton-lice's net-noodle-penis;
and/or slave in the name of "black-labour".
take a clear view at the standpoint of the mainlanders, which is the
netters' standpoint !!!!!
if being cheated, the decendants will be more miserable than one can expect
!!!!!!!
J.Venning wrote:
---
lechergod
work. the money can only be acquired by corrupt officials.
no power, it is in hell !!!!
sha zu Kang(butcher Kang) wrote:
> I beat a CCP member into serious wound for personal hate in 1989. but
> this was not the reason for what I left China.
>
> My reason is very simple: more money.
>
>
> peacenjoy wrote:
>
>>Tell us why you left China, Limp Dick. What crimes have you committed?
>>Or was it your parents, since you said, "In China no one was innocent"
>>?
>>
>>sha zu Kang(butcher Kang) wrote:
>>
>>>In China no one was innocent.
>>>I believe they will refuse to discuss why they leave China.
>
>
---
lechergod
willingness.
this shows, no matter how the communists' dogs are cheating netters and
peoples oveseas, no one will believe their applause to such oppressors !!!!
PaPaPeng wrote:
---
enterprise
you eat?
enterprise
is lying, do you, Dog Shit? He has been lying all the time because he
is learning from you.
enterprise
sha zu Kang(butcher Kang)
what the page 138 say?
sha zu Kang(butcher Kang)
nothing happened. No police contacted me at all.
but I do not like the RMB that soaked Chinese blood. So I left China.
"jun zhi ai cai, qu zhi you dao"
you do not understand.
peacenjoy
have read? You most probably do, because you don't read any, and if you
put all the books you have read on the bookshelf, it will be empty! I
give away all the books I have read, and no doubt, Enterprise does as
well. Hey, have you checked our IP addresses lately? Remember
"Departement Kommunis" ?
sha zu Kang(butcher Kang)
For how much did you sell the used book?
Alex Tong
Learning Chinese with software: http://www.monkeykingsoft.com
All about China and Chinese Wiki: http://www.krazychinese.com
Alex Tong
peacenjoy
If I was lying, do you think I will admit it to you in an open
newsgroup?
You should go out from your house and look at the real world instead of
hiding in your room and playing with yourself all the time. In large
agencies, everyone has an assigned task. I am not the one responsible
for getting rid of all the prescribed reading materials. Someone else
is. He comes once every other week to collect all the read materials
and deliver them to some old folks' home or school where they can be of
use. It's done for free.
rst0...@yahoo.com
peacenjoy wrote:
> That is so childish! Do you expect people to keep all the books they
> have read? You most probably do, because you don't read any, and if you
> put all the books you have read on the bookshelf, it will be empty! I
> give away all the books I have read, and no doubt, Enterprise does as
> well. Hey, have you checked our IP addresses lately? Remember
> "Departement Kommunis" ?
Old books are easy references. I kept all my books. My garage is
filled with boxes and boxes of books. Also, you'll be amazed at the
prices of books bought long ago!! engineering textbooks were at $8.00
- $10.00 each while today, wow!! $100.00 -$150.00 a book. Who can
afford to go to school today!!!
lechergod
ha ha ha ha ha
---
lechergod
in western countries, the "dao" is interpreted as no infringement to law !!!
in PRC mainland, communists interprets it they have the power !!!
so your comrades can only flee out to write Epoch Times !!!!
PaPaPeng
>My colleagues know I have huge respect for China, culture and
>geography. Even some of the modern government. I hope they take my
>historical queries as curiosity, and not somehow an "attack"..
A Timely article on the suject.
Chairman Mao's long shadow
By Martin Adams
September 8, 2006
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/HI08Ad01.html
BEIJING - To many outside China, he is a monster spoken of in the same
breath as Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin, held responsible for 30
million or more deaths. So it may seem surprising that, as the
September 9 anniversary marking 30 years since his death approaches,
Mao Zedong, who was deified as "the Sun on the East" or even the
emperor-like "Son of the Heaven" during his own lifetime, remains an
iconic figure.
Saint-like images of Mao are ubiquitous. The imperial portrait posted
at the Gate to the Forbidden City in Beijing's Tiananmen Square is but
his most famous likeness. During any visit to a rural Chinese home,
the late chairman is likely to seen, normally in poster form,
somewhere below the family altar or above the modern household god,
the television set.
His image has even taken on a supernatural role. "For farmers, Mao has
already wafted into folklore," said Professor Ross Terrill of Harvard
University. "For some rural kids in Fujian [province], Mao is the guy
on the altar at the local temple." His pictures have even been used to
ward off floodwaters.
What accounts for Mao's lasting resonance in a Chinese context? For
those struggling to understand the phenomenon, several recent
controversies stirred by the images of the late chairman have provided
telling clues.
The most widely reported furor occurred in May, when it was announced
that a state portrait of Mao that served as a model for portraits
previously displayed in Tiananmen was to go under the auctioneer's
hammer in Beijing on June 3. The prospect of the communist leader
becoming grist to the mill of capitalism inspired glee in the
international press.
But thousands of Chinese bloggers failed to see the joke. "I strongly
oppose the auction of Chairman Mao's portrait because it is neither a
mere piece of artistic work nor a commercial activity. Mao Zedong is
the spirit of our great nation," railed an anonymous netizen quoted by
Xinhua.
Nationalistic sentiments also came to the fore during the
state-portrait affair. The China Daily caught the mood in the anti-
camp by carping, "As the current owner of this painting is an
American, there is the possibility that it may end up in the hands of
another foreigner at auction."
Even proponents of the sale laced their arguments with professions of
love for the late Helmsman. "I keep Chairman Mao in my heart, he isn't
dead," effused one.
After the outcry in the blogosphere, the auction was canceled at the
government's behest. The episode bears testimony to the long shadow
that Mao casts over China.
The late chairman resonates even with Chinese too young to remember
Maoism. This was illustrated in an incident that occurred at New
Zealand's Massey University. In mid-May, about 50 angry Chinese
students staged a heated demonstration to protest the front-cover
design of the latest issue of the Massey student magazine, Caff. The
offensive image? Chairman Mao, hand on hip, posing Cosmopolitan-style
in a fetching summer dress beneath the punning title "Commupolitan",
accompanied by satirical captions such as: "273 ways to conform to
mass standardization while staying FABULOUS".
Harmless student fun, one might have thought. An anonymous letter
posted on campus, apparently by a Chinese student, however, explained
why the image was "an open affront toward all Chinese and our nation
... Chairman Mao and his Red Army have blocked back Japanese invaders
... he led the successful Chinese liberation and announced the
establishment of People's Republic of China."
The Massey student neatly explained the nexus between Mao and
nationalism, which partly also explains his continued relevance to the
younger generation. As Chicago University's Lee Feigon, director of
the irreverent documentary The Passion of the Mao, put it, Mao is "a
national symbol. It's not unusual for people in almost any country to
get emotional about what they imagine to be the maltreatment of a
national symbol."
If Mao embodies national pride, this is not least because he is given
credit for allowing China to stand tall after a century of colonial
ignominy. Given that one of the most resented grievances of the
imperial era remains the plundering of Chinese national treasures, the
thought that this historic portrait of the man credited with saving
China from foreign domination should be carried off like so much
colonial loot may have been too bitter an irony for some.
In a society where even the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) leadership
has abandoned its core ideology in all but name, the resulting moral
vacuum tends to be filled by the secular religions of nationalism and
extreme materialism. Concern over the latter was illustrated by an
opponent of the portrait auction complaining to a Phoenix television
talk show, "Chinese will sell anything for a profit."
In contrast, said Harvard Professor Roderick MacFarquhar, "For many
ordinary Chinese it seems Mao represents a less corrupt and more
egalitarian era than the present."
The portrait auction seems to have set this distinction between a
mythical Golden Age and the cut-and-thrust of modern China in sharp
relief. "The reaction against the sale says as much about the
ambivalence in today's China about the crass materialism that now
characterizes much of the society as about feelings about Mao," Lee
Feigon concluded.
Nevertheless, the current keepers of Mao's image have a powerful
incentive to protect it. "With the loss of faith in Marxism-Leninism,
Mao is the principal claim of the CCP to legitimacy," said
MacFarquhar.
And protect it they do - quite literally. When three demonstrators
threw paint at Mao's portrait on the Tiananmen Gate during the
pro-democracy movement in 1989, they received especially severe
punishments. The last of the three, Yu Dongyue, was released from jail
this April after serving 17 years of a 20- year sentence. MacFarquhar
believes that Yu was given such a lengthy sentence because "he did the
equivalent of burning the flag". Physical abuse in captivity left Yu
with serious mental damage.
Also in April, a painting by artist Gao Qiang depicting a yellow Mao
swimming in a red Yangtze River was banned from Beijing's Dashanzi
International Art Festival. The censors offered no explanations.
Perhaps they interpreted Gao's yellow-and-red color scheme,
reminiscent of the Chinese national flag, as an ironic statement about
the way the CCP uses Mao's status as a national symbol to wrap itself
in the flag.
The greater irony may be that Gao, who sees it as his life's mission
to present a more rounded image of the late chairman, in fact partly
admires Mao, the self-educated philosopher, poet and calligrapher, as
a paragon of Chinese culture. This cultural adulation is shared by
many Chinese, including the Massey student: "In some cases, the words,
[and] especially the photos, of Chairman Mao represent our highest
national regards and pride that [are] part of our culture."
Mao's sayings still occur in everyday conversation and even as
graffiti. Professor Kurt Radtke, a China expert at Waseda University
in Tokyo, explained why the author of the Little Red Book's cultural
resonance is another factor behind his enduring appeal: "Mao ...
relived expectations of a country used to the image of
philosopher-kings. Many of his writings are now laughed at - certainly
abroad - but their style, their contents, fit Chinese traditions very
neatly."
The ways in which Mao's heirs seek to preserve and benefit from his
popularity extend far beyond matters of art. Chinese textbooks still
employ Mao's poems, for instance, to cement a propagandist view of
history.
But whatever Mao's uses, symbols are by nature slippery, and the
legacy of the man who led the attack on his own party during the
Cultural Revolution (1966-76) could yet prove difficult for China's
leaders to control.
"The use of Mao's image by the party is a triple-edged thing," warned
Radtke. "He very often appealed to popular moral standards - for
instance, in his struggle against corruption in, by and for the party.
Many of his writings could easily be used to attack current government
policies."
In a country where political protest has often been led by the
educated youth, Mao could cause the party some discomfort. "The
younger generation of Chinese is very conscious of how much the symbol
of Mao means to China," said Lee Feigon. "Since the government can't
really disavow Mao ... students are aware that they can use Mao the
symbol to protest against injustice and the inequities of the
present."
Whatever the potential dangers, however, the CCP is married to Mao. In
addition to his cultural and patriotic appeal, political realities
make Mao unassailable.
"Mao's function for the CCP is one of Marx-Lenin-Stalin wrapped into
one for the Chinese revolution," Terrill explained. "That's why they
can't denounce him simply as a Stalin, because that would also be to
attack their own Lenin, the founder of the state - a state that has no
alternative legitimacy in elections from below."
As long as the political system he created survives, Mao's privileged
position in Tiananmen, in living rooms and hearts and minds across the
country, is assured.
Martin Adams is a Beijing-based freelance writer. His credits include
articles published in the Wall Street Journal Asia, That's Beijing
magazine and That's Beijing Excursions Guide.
she...@yahoo.com
lechergod wrote:
> really, under communism, you cannot make any money, no matter how hard you
> work. the money can only be acquired by corrupt officials.
> no power, it is in hell !!!!
>
>
And where is such a system in place? Sounds a bit like the USA, where
to start a business you must pay off countless governmental
organizations, but a better way to make money is to win a no-bid
contract from your friend in DC.
Granted, I've only spent a brief time in Beijing, so please let me know
what the situation is really. I saw many shops, selling many things,
and it seemed like less regulations than the USA, where cigarettes,
beer, food, software, electronics, drugs, media, etc. are closely
regulated by "the man".
I've also heard the statistic that there are more people in jail here
in the US, despite our much smaller population. Is this true?
Thanks for everyone's useful comments!
peacenjoy
seasoned barker. You should be able to do much better than that.
sha zu Kang(butcher Kang)
I want to have this kind of job.
Which agency do you work for? xinhua, zhongcan, guoan or CIA, MI5?
sha zu Kang(butcher Kang)
Each city or town in china has its own underground system.
if you want to know, go to china and begin your business. then some
people, whom we called "taizhidang", will ask you to hire them. two
years later, you will know the underground system.
peacenjoy
There are many "cushy" jobs out there which you can get. Take for
example a film critic - he does nothing other than watch movies all day
long and write reviews about it. Now, wouldn't you like to get such a
job? What about a Michelin Guide agent? He travels all around the world
and eats at very expensive restaurants, and writes what he thinks about
them. What about a porn star? Wouldn't you like to fuck all those
gorgeous girls and get paid for it? My work is not only reading books,
although reading books is part of my job. Now you don't really expect
me to tell you more about my job in an open NG, do you? What do you do
other than think of things to condemn the Chinese?
enterprise
sha zu Kang(butcher Kang) wrote:
enterprise
the underground at the ticket office.
rst0...@yahoo.com
enterprise wrote:
> Here in the West, that is commonly known as the "protection racket".
And it is well known in San Francisco Chinatown, also Oakland
Chinatown.
sha zu Kang(butcher Kang)
the "tai zhi dang" are the brokers who help the corrupt officials to
collect your bribe.
If you refuse to bribe the corrupt official, the world's highest tax
rate in China will drive you out of business.
In China no businessman pay the full tax. So according to the law of
PRC, all of them are criminals and CCP corrupt officials can send them
to jail if they refuse to cooperate with the officials.
PaPaPeng
>Granted, I've only spent a brief time in Beijing, so please let me know
>what the situation is really. I saw many shops, selling many things,
>and it seemed like less regulations than the USA, where cigarettes,
>beer, food, software, electronics, drugs, media, etc. are closely
>regulated by "the man".
>
The fact that you had been to Beijing is already more than half the
task done. You come across as someone who has kept an open mind,
that is you view China without preconceived notions. That is all
anyone can ask of you. That said believe in your instincts on what
you see and hear in person. If you find your impressions inconsistent
then find out where the inconsistency lies. Interpretations may be
different. Evidence is evidence and should stand. You can always
revisit the same evidence with a new interpretation, the Eureka moment
years down the line.
China is one humongous and complex country. It would be impossible to
put on a facade on everything. There will be to many contradictions
to hide. So what you observe must be the truth although what
constitutes the truth depends on your socio-cultural and educational
background. Don't expect to get any clear answers anytime soon. But
if you read lots of books and articles over the years the facts will
converge into a consistent form you can live with.
>I've also heard the statistic that there are more people in jail here
>in the US, despite our much smaller population. Is this true?
Like everything else the Internet is an excellent source on any topic
you are interested in. Use it. After a while you will learn which
sources to read in detail and which to trash immediately. Draw your
own conclusion from many sources. Sources supported by valid data
should come to a very similar conclusion.
sha zu Kang(butcher Kang)
is an organization.
It is very easy to fool your eyes and ears.
lechergod
may be those shop are illegal but not cleared under bribery !!!
she...@yahoo.com wrote:
---
lechergod
even in western countries, everyone is still unable to see through how they
make a living !!!!
sha zu Kang(butcher Kang) wrote:
---
peacenjoy
person?
sha zu Kang(butcher Kang) wrote:
peacenjoy
Doggie?
You have never been in China, well not the Mainland anyway, even though
Hong Kong is now China, and you have never even come in contact with
any of the business people there, and you want to convince people about
what to do?
Ha ha ha!
peacenjoy
Intalian Cosa Nostra? The Russian maffia? The Irish gangs? Cuban gangs,
Blacks and Hispanic gangs etc? They are all over the place.
lechergod
no one even know who I am,
how can this communists' dog tell I have never been in mainland ???
communists' dogs can just tell lies in such ways !!!
---
enterprise
What the fuck have you eaten, Lecherdog? You're having a serious case
of diarrhoea all over the newsgroup.
sha zu Kang(butcher Kang)
peacenjoy
PaPaPeng
>I'm looking for some info like, how are the translations? Are they
>biased in some way? Is there a CCP sanctioned history? Are any of
>these things denied 30 years after his death and why?
More articles on the subject
30 years on, Mao's memory preserved
By Diego Montero (China Daily)
Updated: 2006-09-09 06:21
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2006-09/09/content_685059.htm
Time passes. The relevance of contemporary life pushes the events of
the past out of the spotlight and into the shadows.
Books on the life of Mao Zedong line the shelves of a Xinhua Bookstore
in Nanjing, Jiangsu Province, on the eve of the 30th anniversary of
the Chairman's death. [China Daily]
But when the people lose their historical perspective, it falls to
historians and other academics to make sure the candle of great
contributions continues to burn.
Saturday is the 30th anniversary of the death of Mao Zedong, who
founded the People's Republic of China on October 1, 1949 and led the
nation for 27 years after that.
Mao born on December 26, 1893 in Shaoshan village of Xiangtan County,
Hunan Province is often lauded for uniting China after decades of
misrule and internecine warlord rivalry, defending China's
independence, and promoting sexual and social equality.
Some foreigners with more exposure to China view Mao in that broader
historical context.
"My view now is that Mao had an exceedingly penetrating understanding
of Chinese society and very high ideals for the creation of a
self-sufficient nation with a spirit of co-operation," said Judy
Polumbaum, a journalism professor at the University of Iowa, who first
came to China in spring 1975.
"He was more farsighted than he is given credit for today."
Nancy Jervis, a cultural anthropologist who first came to China in the
1970s, said: "I still credit the socialist era with building a stable
economy and an infrastructure upon which the present economy is taking
off. Not enough people understand this."
Sidney Rittenberg Sr, an American interpreter and scholar who lived in
China from 1944 to 1979 and worked closely with Mao, said the key to
his relevance lies with some of his ideas that are still critical to
China's well-being.
"I believe that studying China during Mao's lifetime, carrying forward
what was valid in his teachings (like his powerful philosophy of 'Seek
truth from facts,' and 'Investigation and study') and eliminating the
influence of what was wrong," he said.
"This is essential for the continued flourishing of China and for the
new life and new culture that China will create out of the lessons of
the past and the confusion of the present."
But Tom McGrenery, a writer from London based in Beijing, said: "I
didn't know it (Saturday) was the anniversary."
McGrenery said his impression is that to the Chinese of today, "he
(Mao) is a hero, but in a very vague sense."
Richard Baum, a professor of political science at the University of
California, Los Angeles, said: "Most expats in Beijing these days are
young professionals and entrepreneurs who came of age long after Mao
Zedong's death."
"For these latecomers, Mao's memory and mystique are not very potent
no more than a vague historical curiosity while the post-Mao reforms
are a 'given,' which they take for granted."
In an economic sense, he said, "the new culture of entrepreneurship
and self-enrichment has crowded Mao and Maoism out of the marketplace
of relevant ideas."
bmo...@nyx.net
J.Venning wrote:
> <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote in message news:1157573295.7...@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
> > Some of the regular posters on this newsgroup seem to have the attitude
> > that if you say negative things about anything Chinese (like Mao), you
> > are anti-China.
> >
> Politics, like religion, is a very sensitive subject - so sensitive that one can be drawn into it with a tremendous amount of prejudice without realising it. Some, like a few posters here in scc, are passionately drawn to their personal views due to their personal experiences. I don't think one can be rational, when one is "defending" or "condemning" certain political issues, because one can only see one's own view points. As a matter of fact, one can be condemned as being "weak" if one sees and understands the other side's view points - of this I have personally been accused frequently.
Those who condemn others as "weak" simply for trying to see the other
side are of the same ilk as those who cause wars and create human
misery due to their obstinant chauvinism. The truth is rarely black and
white and the "middle way" is not a sign of weakness but rather of
wisdom.
> I have seen that here in scc, there are these two factions - the pro and the contra China - and this makes the whole newsgroup alive, despite the few lunatic repetitive posts. It would be a tragedy for any newsgroup, if everyone were to agree on every single issue: we might all as well join hands and sing Hallelujah.
> J.
bmo...@nyx.net
bmo...@nyx.net wrote:
> J.Venning wrote:
> > <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote in message news:1157573295.7...@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
> > > Some of the regular posters on this newsgroup seem to have the attitude
> > > that if you say negative things about anything Chinese (like Mao), you
> > > are anti-China.
> > >
> > Politics, like religion, is a very sensitive subject - so sensitive that one can be drawn into it with a tremendous amount of prejudice without realising it. Some, like a few posters here in scc, are passionately drawn to their personal views due to their personal experiences. I don't think one can be rational, when one is "defending" or "condemning" certain political issues, because one can only see one's own view points. As a matter of fact, one can be condemned as being "weak" if one sees and understands the other side's view points - of this I have personally been accused frequently.
>
> Those who condemn others as "weak" simply for trying to see the other
> side are of the same ilk as those who cause wars and create human
> misery due to their obstinant chauvinism. The truth is rarely black and
> white and the "middle way" is not a sign of weakness but rather of
> wisdom.
But I would add that while keeping an open mind is good, one also needs
to take caution that one's mind is not so open that one's brain falls
out... or as WH Auden said, "There is some shit up with which I will
not put." ;-)
J.Venning
>(snip, though good points)...
>..... or as WH Auden said, "There is some shit up with which I will
> not put." ;-)
>
Ah, *that* was first said by Churchill, I believe.
J.
sha zu Kang(butcher Kang)
enterprise
Lecherdog too much these past few days.
sha zu Kang(butcher Kang)
bmo...@nyx.net
Churchill's was allegedly something like "This is arrogant pedantry, up
with which I will not put," after being told not to end a sentence with
a preposition.
Did you hear the one about the high school senior touring Harvard? He
was talking to a Harvard student and said, "What are you majoring in?"
The Harvard student replied, "At Harvard we don't end our sentences
with prepositions." The high school senior then said, "OK, what are you
majoring in, asshole?"
J.Venning
>> >..... or as WH Auden said, "There is some shit up with which I will
>> > not put." ;-)
>> Ah, *that* was first said by Churchill, I believe.
>
> Churchill's was allegedly something like "This is arrogant pedantry, up
> with which I will not put," after being told not to end a sentence with
> a preposition.
>
> Did you hear the one about the high school senior touring Harvard? He
> was talking to a Harvard student and said, "What are you majoring in?"
> The Harvard student replied, "At Harvard we don't end our sentences
> with prepositions." The high school senior then said, "OK, what are you
> majoring in, asshole?"
>
J.
Talking about one-up-manship between colleges and universities, did you hear the one about the conversation between the Cambridge and Oxford students in the men's room? After having emptied their respective bladders, the Cambridge student noticed that the Oxford student was about to leave without washing his hands and cried out, "I say, Old Chap, at Cambridge we are taught to wash our hands after peeing", to which the Oxford student smugly replied, "At Oxford, Old Bean, we are taught not to pee on our hands".
PaPaPeng
wrote:
>Talking about one-up-manship between colleges and universities, did you hear the one about the conversation between the Cambridge and Oxford students in the men's room? After having emptied their respective bladders, the Cambridge student noticed that the Oxford student was about to leave without washing his hands and cried out, "I say, Old Chap, at Cambridge we are taught to wash our hands after peeing", to which the Oxford student smugly replied, "At Oxford, Old Bean, we are taught not to pee on our hands".
Aaah washroom jokes. This one is real, happened to friend. Everyone
in this research establishment had some fancy advanced engineering
degree or other, the creme of society one might think. That morning,
this friend was doing his gut call business. The guy in the next
stall made all the impressive noises and finally did the flush. In
office building loo cubicles the panels have gaps big enough to see
what is going on outside. He noted the guy from the next stall went
out to the washstand. Instead of washing his hands he dipped into the
jar of hand moisturiser cream supplied by the office. Then he
proceeded to rub the moisturizer all over his face and arms. Our
winters are very dry, especially whne the furnace fires up.. Woohoo,
professor or not this friend avoided ever shaking hands with him ever.
Friend never dipped into that moisturizer jar either.
PaPaPeng
>A Timely article on the suject.
>
>Chairman Mao's long shadow
>By Martin Adams
>September 8, 2006
>http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/HI08Ad01.html
Another timely article
China
UPDATED: 09:33, September 11, 2006
Chinese commemorate 30th anniversary of death of late Chairman Mao
http://english.people.com.cn/200609/11/eng20060911_301587.html
An elderly surnamed Ge took a two-hour ride Saturday from the suburbs
to downtown Beijing to show his respects to the late Chinese leader
Mao Zedong.
Ge lined up with hundreds of others outside the Chairman Mao Memorial
Hall in Tiananmen Square, where lies the embalmed body of the late
leader, in order to show his reverence to him on Saturday, the 30th
anniversary of his death.
"Every year on this date I have lots of words that I want to tell
Chairman Mao, so I left home before dawn for this hall," said Ge.
"I wanted to tell Chairman Mao that all my four sons had found jobs
after graduating from college, and I, a farmer, have nothing to worry
about in my late years."
Like Ge, hundreds of thousands of Chinese across the country showed
their respects in different forms on Saturday to this founder of the
People's Republic of China.
In Shaoshan, hometown of Mao, visitors and local residents paid
tribute to him at the Former Residence of Chairman Mao.
Tang Ruiren, owner of the Maojia Restaurant in her 70s, still recites
Mao's works and quotations every day when she welcomes visitors.
"We hope that China will keep unswervingly to the policies of the
reform and opening up to strengthen the nation and enrich the people,
" said Tang, who still wears a badge of Chairman Mao.
In the first half of this year, visitors to Shaoshan, central China's
Hunan Province, reached two million, according to local government
sources.
Construction of a museum which will showcase personal possessions of
the late Chinese leader and other related relics has begun in
Shaoshan.
A memorial hall built by a retired couple in central China's Henan
Province also attracted visitors from other areas of the province.
Qi Chunxin, 71, and her 74-year-old husband Zhang Yongjian returned to
Kouzhuan Village of Yuzhou City after their retirement and began to
collect reports, pictures and badges about Chairman Mao.
They completed building a museum of Chairman Mao in 2001 and enlarged
the museum in 2003.
"We should not forget Chairman Mao, for we would not have lived a
happy life today but for efforts of Chairman Mao and other late
leaders," said Qi.
Teenagers and young people also paid tribute to Chairman Mao on an
Internet memorial for him.
"Thirty years have passed, and I have come to know why Chinese people,
including my parents, mourned so much at the death of Chairman Mao at
that time -- the chairman was a great figure that had been serving the
people heart and soul," said a text message left on the memorial by
netizen Li Shan.
Source: Xinhua
PaPaPeng
>
>>A Timely article on the suject.
>>
>>Chairman Mao's long shadow
>>By Martin Adams
>>September 8, 2006
>>http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/HI08Ad01.html
>
>
>Another timely article
>
>
>China
> UPDATED: 09:33, September 11, 2006
>Chinese commemorate 30th anniversary of death of late Chairman Mao
> http://english.people.com.cn/200609/11/eng20060911_301587.html
One more with feeling
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Letters.html
It is not easy for "foreigners" to fully understand the sentimental
knot tying a good fraction of Chinese to the memory of Chairman Mao
[Zedong]. It is also not fair to suggest placing his name alongside
[that of Adolf] Hitler, as observed in Martin Adams' Chairman Mao's
long shadow (Sep 8). Mao's failed policies led to deaths and poverty
but he did not deliberately kill like Hitler. As tragic as it was,
such results were "collateral" damage, to borrow the term. He was and
is still revered simply for his revolutionary fervor in risking life
and enduring hardship. He was the first effective figure to lift the
heads of Chinese in defiance of foreign bullies. His lack of formal
education makes his beautiful poetry and essays the more commendable.
He made mistakes later on in life that led to internal turmoil, but
his diplomatic skills proved him to be an astute statesman recognized
worldwide. Writer Martin Adams seemed to condone the incident at New
Zealand's Massey University as pure "harmless student fun". Harmless
to whom? Those few students are just a bunch of spoiled kids who get
fun out of ridiculing people outside their own country. There are
dozens of fun-creating stories that can be used regarding some world
figures, which I would feel ashamed to mention. The fact that Mao is
still revered is plain. There is no need for any Harvard professor to
explain.
S P Li (Sep 11, '06)
demor...@aol.com
PaPaPeng wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 05:07:54 GMT, PaPaPeng <PaPa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >>A Timely article on the suject.
> >>
> >>Chairman Mao's long shadow
> >>By Martin Adams
> >>September 8, 2006
> >>http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/HI08Ad01.html
> >
> >
> >Another timely article
> >
> >
> >China
> > UPDATED: 09:33, September 11, 2006
> >Chinese commemorate 30th anniversary of death of late Chairman Mao
> > http://english.people.com.cn/200609/11/eng20060911_301587.html
>
>
> One more with feeling
> http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Letters.html
>
> It is not easy for "foreigners" to fully understand the sentimental
> knot tying a good fraction of Chinese to the memory of Chairman Mao
> [Zedong]. It is also not fair to suggest placing his name alongside
> [that of Adolf] Hitler, as observed in Martin Adams' Chairman Mao's
> long shadow (Sep 8). Mao's failed policies led to deaths and poverty
> but he did not deliberately kill like Hitler.
>From what comic book did you learn Chinese history?
-----
http://www.tfp.org/TFPForum/TFPRecommends/Books/mao_the_unknown_story.htm
"Burn, burn, burn! Kill, kill, kill!"
-- motto of early Chinese Communists
After discovering that the less radical elements of [Mao's] cadre were
hesitant to shed blood, he began forcing these "mediocre"
Communists to torture and kill their victims with a special brutality.
PaPaPeng
>http://www.tfp.org/TFPForum/TFPRecommends/Books/mao_the_unknown_story.htm
>
>"Burn, burn, burn! Kill, kill, kill!"
> -- motto of early Chinese Communists
>
>After discovering that the less radical elements of [Mao's] cadre were
>hesitant to shed blood, he began forcing these "mediocre"
>Communists to torture and kill their victims with a special brutality.
Jung Chang's book eh" That's a hard cover version of The Epoch Times.
sha zu Kang(butcher Kang)
I know the people's daily.
enterprise
Hey, you posted links taken directly from the Epoch Times, and you
didn't even know it? Boy, you are dumb!
sha zu Kang(butcher Kang) wrote:
sha zu Kang(butcher Kang)
peacenjoy wrote:
> Poor Boy! You have really lived an isolated life, haven't you?
> There are many "cushy" jobs out there which you can get. Take for
> example a film critic - he does nothing other than watch movies all day
> long and write reviews about it. Now, wouldn't you like to get such a
> job? What about a Michelin Guide agent? He travels all around the world
> and eats at very expensive restaurants, and writes what he thinks about
> them. What about a porn star? Wouldn't you like to fuck all those
> gorgeous girls and get paid for it? My work is not only reading books,
> although reading books is part of my job. Now you don't really expect
> me to tell you more about my job in an open NG, do you? What do you do
> other than think of things to condemn the Chinese?
>
> sha zu Kang(butcher Kang) wrote:
> > You told me that your job was reading the fiction books?
> >
> > I want to have this kind of job.
> >
> > Which agency do you work for? xinhua, zhongcan, guoan or CIA, MI5?
> >
sha zu Kang(butcher Kang)
peacenjoy
teachers from Lecherdog to Chuandetu?
sha zu Kang(butcher Kang)
cao ni ma! do you understand? jia yang gui zhi.
lechergod
sha zu Kang(butcher Kang) wrote:
> you win Junk VI. What do you want? fucking your mother and grandmother?
>
> cao ni ma! do you understand? jia yang gui zhi.
>
>
> peacenjoy wrote:
>
>>You sound just like a broken record, Limp Dick! Have you changed
>>teachers from Lecherdog to Chuandetu?
>>
>>sha zu Kang(butcher Kang) wrote:
>>
>>>You Win, Junk VI.
>>>
>>>enterprise wrote:
>>>
>>>>Oh, now you say you read The People's Daily, do you?
>>>>Hey, you posted links taken directly from the Epoch Times, and you
>>>>didn't even know it? Boy, you are dumb!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>sha zu Kang(butcher Kang) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>What is the epoch times.
>>>>>
>>>>>I know the people's daily.
>>>>>
>>>>>PaPaPeng wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On 11 Sep 2006 17:32:38 -0700, demor...@aol.com wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>http://www.tfp.org/TFPForum/TFPRecommends/Books/mao_the_unknown_story.htm
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Burn, burn, burn! Kill, kill, kill!"
>>>>>>> -- motto of early Chinese Communists
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>After discovering that the less radical elements of [Mao's] cadre were
>>>>>>>hesitant to shed blood, he began forcing these "mediocre"
>>>>>>>Communists to torture and kill their victims with a special brutality.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Jung Chang's book eh" That's a hard cover version of The Epoch Times.
>
>
---
enterprise
you have only eaten and read junk all your life?
enterprise
Dog Shit? Oh, and by the way, you English is getting worse.
enterprise
octogenarian
for those poor Chinese when Mao schemed to power:
she...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I'm just about 500 pages into this book "Mao, the unkown story"
> by Jung Chang and Jon Halliday
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Mao-Story-Jung-Chang/dp/0679746323/sr=8-2/qid=1157479262/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-8354124-8353664?ie=UTF8&s=books
>
> It seems to be an excellent and exremely well researched biography.
>
> I'm wondering if anyone can tell me more of this book.. am I only
> getting some of the story?
>
> Any factual errors in e.g. starvation figures, purge histories, etc.?
>
> Thanks - shevek
J.Venning
> Here's another thread of the same. BTW, I read it and had bad dreams
> for those poor Chinese when Mao schemed to power:
>
If you got bad dreams after reading that book, you should stay away from any accounts of what the Japanese people did to the Chinese during WW2.
J.
she...@yahoo.com
PaPaPeng wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 05:07:54 GMT, PaPaPeng <PaPa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >>A Timely article on the suject.
> >>
> >>Chairman Mao's long shadow
> >>By Martin Adams
> >>September 8, 2006
> >>http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/HI08Ad01.html
> >
> >
> >Another timely article
> >
> >
> >China
> > UPDATED: 09:33, September 11, 2006
> >Chinese commemorate 30th anniversary of death of late Chairman Mao
> > http://english.people.com.cn/200609/11/eng20060911_301587.html
>
>
> One more with feeling
> http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Letters.html
>
Xie xie ni Papa for this one!
As I'm still in the middle of this book now, just getting through the
cultural revolution, I can try to respond to that letter in the spirit
of the authors.
> It is not easy for "foreigners" to fully understand the sentimental
> knot tying a good fraction of Chinese to the memory of Chairman Mao
> [Zedong]. It is also not fair to suggest placing his name alongside
> [that of Adolf] Hitler, as observed in Martin Adams' Chairman Mao's
> long shadow (Sep 8). Mao's failed policies led to deaths and poverty
> but he did not deliberately kill like Hitler. As tragic as it was,
> such results were "collateral" damage, to borrow the term. He was and
> is still revered simply for his revolutionary fervor in risking life
> and enduring hardship.
Apparently Mao was carried on a litter when moving with an army, even
before the long march he had the finest villas and foods for himself.
Later with countless villas, personal train, plane, cars at his
disposal, women, european menu, heated pool, servants to towel him off.
Not exactly what you might think when hearing the phrase "enduring
hardship". Perhaps extravagant even for a warlord.
> He was the first effective figure to lift the
> heads of Chinese in defiance of foreign bullies.
Perhaps this applies to his treatment of his army subordinates who
dared to attack the Japanese, against his strict orders. But I didn't
read anything about literal decapitation during purges. He openly
thanked the Japanese for their occupation which weakend the
nationalists and allowed him to take power.
> His lack of formal
> education makes his beautiful poetry and essays the more commendable.
> He made mistakes later on in life that led to internal turmoil, but
> his diplomatic skills proved him to be an astute statesman recognized
> worldwide. Writer Martin Adams seemed to condone the incident at New
> Zealand's Massey University as pure "harmless student fun". Harmless
> to whom? Those few students are just a bunch of spoiled kids who get
> fun out of ridiculing people outside their own country. There are
> dozens of fun-creating stories that can be used regarding some world
> figures, which I would feel ashamed to mention. The fact that Mao is
> still revered is plain. There is no need for any Harvard professor to
> explain.
>
Is "the incident" the publication of a cartoon? And how is
"Commupolitan" in any way an insult to Mao or Chinese?
It is revealing that the author of this letter would "feel ashamed" to
"mention a fun-creating story regarding a world figure". Instead
he/she should feel ashamed not to mention the story.
Anyway, I do have one big problem with the book which is a
show-stopper.. not a single han zi. Not even pinyin.
干杯 - shevek
PaPaPeng
You have the advantage here in that I could not read much of the book
before chucking it in disgust.
Your commentary above confirms my disgust with Jung's book. Until Mao
took power in 1949 he had a revolution to fight (and a price of a on
his head, that would have enriched any betrayer for three
generations). As a rebel he was constantly on the run for to have a
fixed based was fatal. To live in luxury in the county(s) that was
abjectly poor would have seen him caught by KMT forces even before he
could step out of the door. It was constantly on the move and no one
had the time for other than to survive and fight. If you read the
memoirs of those who fought alongside him starvation was only one meal
away. Mao fell ill during the Long March and had to be carried on a
litter. For Jung to twist this into Mao lording it over his "minions"
is dispicable. You can find a picture of Mao's quarters in Yan'an and
make your own assessment if luxurious living is possible there. Read
Red Star to find out what the top leadership ate at one of their
"banquets".
I feel sorry for you for having chosen Jung's book as your
intorduction into modern Chinese history. There will be so much you
will have to relarn when you read the more authorative books on the
subject.
>
>> He was the first effective figure to lift the
>> heads of Chinese in defiance of foreign bullies.
>
>Perhaps this applies to his treatment of his army subordinates who
>dared to attack the Japanese, against his strict orders. But I didn't
>read anything about literal decapitation during purges. He openly
>thanked the Japanese for their occupation which weakend the
>nationalists and allowed him to take power.
That's a pretty garbled version of Mao's world view on the forces of
history which he had analyzed with amazing clarity. It was this
clarity that the Chinese nation accepted, without further challenge,
Mao's supreme leadership to lead China out of its chaos and into the
future. That was also what made Mao so powerful a moral force for no
one else could provide an alternative vision. Coups and armies would
be futile against him.
>
>> His lack of formal
>> education makes his beautiful poetry and essays the more commendable.
>> He made mistakes later on in life that led to internal turmoil, but
>> his diplomatic skills proved him to be an astute statesman recognized
>> worldwide. Writer Martin Adams seemed to condone the incident at New
>> Zealand's Massey University as pure "harmless student fun". Harmless
>> to whom? Those few students are just a bunch of spoiled kids who get
>> fun out of ridiculing people outside their own country. There are
>> dozens of fun-creating stories that can be used regarding some world
>> figures, which I would feel ashamed to mention. The fact that Mao is
>> still revered is plain. There is no need for any Harvard professor to
>> explain.
>>
>
>Is "the incident" the publication of a cartoon? And how is
>"Commupolitan" in any way an insult to Mao or Chinese?
>
>It is revealing that the author of this letter would "feel ashamed" to
>"mention a fun-creating story regarding a world figure". Instead
>he/she should feel ashamed not to mention the story.
I don't understand your question.
>
>Anyway, I do have one big problem with the book which is a
>show-stopper.. not a single han zi. Not even pinyin.
>
Jung's book is aimed for the western market. The more dirt she can
throw at Mao the more sales. Her book is reviled among Chinese.
>?? - shevek
she...@yahoo.com
My first impression was also very negative.. the opening chapters don't
inspire much trust in my opinion as they include much subjective /
translation material. The history later however does have a ring of
truth to it.
> Your commentary above confirms my disgust with Jung's book. Until Mao
> took power in 1949 he had a revolution to fight (and a price of a on
> his head, that would have enriched any betrayer for three
> generations). As a rebel he was constantly on the run for to have a
> fixed based was fatal.
Constantly on the run describes the rest of the book too.. after
making many enemies (Chinese) he feared for his life and remained on
the run in concrete bunkers which he could drive his car into built for
him in many locations. A keen sense of security often displayed.
> To live in luxury in the county(s) that was
> abjectly poor would have seen him caught by KMT forces even before he
> could step out of the door. It was constantly on the move and no one
> had the time for other than to survive and fight.
The descriptions by his servants of his menus, locations and
descriptions of various houses, vehicles, are in the book if you are
interested. They seem well sourced and until I see otherwise I would
believe them.
> If you read the
> memoirs of those who fought alongside him starvation was only one meal
> away.
Certainly true for many who fought alongside him, according to the
book.
> Mao fell ill during the Long March and had to be carried on a
> litter. For Jung to twist this into Mao lording it over his "minions"
> is dispicable. You can find a picture of Mao's quarters in Yan'an and
> make your own assessment if luxurious living is possible there. Read
> Red Star to find out what the top leadership ate at one of their
> "banquets".
I read about that description in the Jung book. Mao's own words on
this topic are also quoted and discount the Red Star stories.
>
> I feel sorry for you for having chosen Jung's book as your
> intorduction into modern Chinese history. There will be so much you
> will have to relarn when you read the more authorative books on the
> subject.
I look forward to it.
> >
> >> He was the first effective figure to lift the
> >> heads of Chinese in defiance of foreign bullies.
> >
> >Perhaps this applies to his treatment of his army subordinates who
> >dared to attack the Japanese, against his strict orders. But I didn't
> >read anything about literal decapitation during purges. He openly
> >thanked the Japanese for their occupation which weakend the
> >nationalists and allowed him to take power.
>
> That's a pretty garbled version of Mao's world view on the forces of
> history which he had analyzed with amazing clarity. It was this
> clarity that the Chinese nation accepted, without further challenge,
> Mao's supreme leadership to lead China out of its chaos and into the
> future. That was also what made Mao so powerful a moral force for no
> one else could provide an alternative vision. Coups and armies would
> be futile against him.
>
Certainly powerful, charismatic, driven, strong, and many other words
would apply. However it is certainly mistaken English to use the word
"moral". He'd be very upset with you for that one, if he knew English.
:)
>
> >> His lack of formal
> >> education makes his beautiful poetry and essays the more commendable.
> >> He made mistakes later on in life that led to internal turmoil, but
> >> his diplomatic skills proved him to be an astute statesman recognized
> >> worldwide. Writer Martin Adams seemed to condone the incident at New
> >> Zealand's Massey University as pure "harmless student fun". Harmless
> >> to whom? Those few students are just a bunch of spoiled kids who get
> >> fun out of ridiculing people outside their own country. There are
> >> dozens of fun-creating stories that can be used regarding some world
> >> figures, which I would feel ashamed to mention. The fact that Mao is
> >> still revered is plain. There is no need for any Harvard professor to
> >> explain.
> >>
> >
> >Is "the incident" the publication of a cartoon? And how is
> >"Commupolitan" in any way an insult to Mao or Chinese?
> >
> >It is revealing that the author of this letter would "feel ashamed" to
> >"mention a fun-creating story regarding a world figure". Instead
> >he/she should feel ashamed not to mention the story.
>
> I don't understand your question.
>
The author of the letter was upset about an "incident". Was this
incident the publication of the cartoon in the university paper,
featuring Mao with the text "Commupolitan"? How ridiculous is that, to
be upset by such a thing?
>
> >Anyway, I do have one big problem with the book which is a
> >show-stopper.. not a single han zi. Not even pinyin.
> >
>
> Jung's book is aimed for the western market. The more dirt she can
> throw at Mao the more sales. Her book is reviled among Chinese.
>
It certainly seems biased agains him in some respects, which is why I'm
asking around here to see if the -facts- are right. I'd bet there are
more Chinese who like the book then Westerners. She sings heros tales
of many Chinese, many who suffered bravely for the cause of China and
even stood up to power from the barrel of a gun.
she...@yahoo.com
It means to plan, basically.
打算
Some of that (Japanese occupation) is in Jung's book too.
Definitely also steer clear of stories of the American holocaust, e.g.
John Stannard's book. Mao may have said he'd be happy if half the
chinese people died, but several early US presidents wished that all
Americans (native) be killed.
PaPaPeng
>> You have the advantage here in that I could not read much of the book
>> before chucking it in disgust.
>>
>
>My first impression was also very negative.. the opening chapters don't
>inspire much trust in my opinion as they include much subjective /
>translation material. The history later however does have a ring of
>truth to it.
>
>
>> Your commentary above confirms my disgust with Jung's book. Until Mao
>> took power in 1949 he had a revolution to fight (and a price of a on
>> his head, that would have enriched any betrayer for three
>> generations). As a rebel he was constantly on the run for to have a
>> fixed based was fatal.
>
>
>Constantly on the run describes the rest of the book too.. after
>making many enemies (Chinese) he feared for his life and remained on
>the run in concrete bunkers which he could drive his car into built for
>him in many locations. A keen sense of security often displayed.
In the aftermath of WWII the Cold War immediately put the whole world
under the threat of a nuclear holocaust. Remember Gen. MacArthur who
was sacked for, among other things, pressing for a nuclear bombing of
China? It would have been criminally negilgent for the Chinese
leadership not to have taken the precaution of surviving such a strike
and remain in place to fight back and to reconstruct the country.
Even a peaceable country like Canada had much more elaborate shelters
complete with command centers buried deep underground and in various
secret places all over the country. These have been discovered by
accident in recent times when building works uncovered them.
>
>
>> To live in luxury in the county(s) that was
>> abjectly poor would have seen him caught by KMT forces even before he
>> could step out of the door. It was constantly on the move and no one
>> had the time for other than to survive and fight.
>
>The descriptions by his servants of his menus, locations and
>descriptions of various houses, vehicles, are in the book if you are
>interested. They seem well sourced and until I see otherwise I would
>believe them.
The only surprise is that the Jung team didn't go through Mao's
garbage bin to dig up more garbage.
I did struggle with the word "moral" but decided to let it go for want
of a better word.
AHD: mor·al (môr“…l, m¼r“-) adj. 1. Of or concerned with the judgment
of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral
scrutiny; a moral quandary. 2. Teaching or exhibiting goodness or
correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson. 3. Conforming
to standards of what is right or just in behavior; virtuous: a moral
life. 4. Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a
moral obligation. 5. Having psychological rather than physical or
tangible effects: a moral victory; moral support. 6. Based on strong
likelihood or firm conviction, rather than on the actual evidence: a
moral certainty. --mor·al n. 1. The lesson or principle contained in
or taught by a fable, a story, or an event. 2. A concisely expressed
precept or general truth; a maxim. 3. morals. Rules or habits of
conduct, especially of sexual conduct, with reference to standards of
right and wrong: a person of loose morals; a decline in the public
morals. [Middle English, from Old French, from Latin m½r³lis, from
m½s, m½r-, custom. See m¶-1 below.] --mor“al·ly adv.
I would apply definitions 5 and 6. To cut a long story short the
almighty Gods of three major religions (Judiasm, Christianity and
Islam), smite their enemies and destroyed whole nations to prove
their point. Mao was no God so he smote only millions and built a
nation.
Do read more books on China. One cannot change more than two
millenia of a world and system that no longer works without also
clearing the deadwood. Read your own history books. Western
monarchy didn't just lie down and let modernization take over.
Mao didn't just fight a war. He gave it its philosophical
foundations, based on the peasants role in the historical and social
forces in China. It is this analysis that is so powerful. It
survives and thrives to this day. This is what you are seeing in this
"bizarre adulation" for Mao although most Chinese would find it
difficult to express their feelings in these terms. It will take a
great writer and simplifier, yet to be born, to distil the essence of
China's Revolution in a form that everyone can understand. And that
distillation will indeed come across as the stuff of Great Epics.
>>
>> >> His lack of formal
>> >> education makes his beautiful poetry and essays the more commendable.
>> >> He made mistakes later on in life that led to internal turmoil, but
>> >> his diplomatic skills proved him to be an astute statesman recognized
>> >> worldwide. Writer Martin Adams seemed to condone the incident at New
>> >> Zealand's Massey University as pure "harmless student fun". Harmless
>> >> to whom? Those few students are just a bunch of spoiled kids who get
>> >> fun out of ridiculing people outside their own country. There are
>> >> dozens of fun-creating stories that can be used regarding some world
>> >> figures, which I would feel ashamed to mention. The fact that Mao is
>> >> still revered is plain. There is no need for any Harvard professor to
>> >> explain.
>> >>
>> >
>> >Is "the incident" the publication of a cartoon? And how is
>> >"Commupolitan" in any way an insult to Mao or Chinese?
>> >
>> >It is revealing that the author of this letter would "feel ashamed" to
>> >"mention a fun-creating story regarding a world figure". Instead
>> >he/she should feel ashamed not to mention the story.
>>
>> I don't understand your question.
>>
>
>
>The author of the letter was upset about an "incident". Was this
>incident the publication of the cartoon in the university paper,
>featuring Mao with the text "Commupolitan"? How ridiculous is that, to
>be upset by such a thing?
Why were there so many pogroms? Why would the Hindus and Muslims kill
each other over ridiculously small slights? Why would throwing down a
gauntlet start a fight? I don't know but not knowing can still get
you killed.
>>
>> >Anyway, I do have one big problem with the book which is a
>> >show-stopper.. not a single han zi. Not even pinyin.
>> >
>>
>> Jung's book is aimed for the western market. The more dirt she can
>> throw at Mao the more sales. Her book is reviled among Chinese.
>>
>
>It certainly seems biased agains him in some respects, which is why I'm
>asking around here to see if the -facts- are right. I'd bet there are
>more Chinese who like the book then Westerners. She sings heros tales
>of many Chinese, many who suffered bravely for the cause of China and
>even stood up to power from the barrel of a gun.
It one wants to tell a convincing lie the trick is to cover it with
multiple layers of truth.