TURKIYE DERGISI: Were Proto-Bulgars of Turkic origin? To BTA, Bulgarian Telegraph Agency, Sofia,
Asparuh Turkomongolov
From: "TURKIYE DERGISI" <turktarihi@t...>
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2001 12:26 am
Subject: Were Proto-Bulgars of Turkic origin?..
Dear Colleagues,
Last week a group of Bulgarian administrative-professors signed a
(kind of) memorandum to protest us (Yeni Turkiye Publication and
Research Center) of listing Danube and Volga Bulgars in the topic
plan of our project `Turk', an international and transnational
history project aiming at preparing a general history of Turks from
the very ancient times up to the current developments. That protest
was published by BTA (Bulgarian Telegraph Agency) in news bulletin.
Our reply to the agency and to our colleagues is below:
To BTA, Bulgarian Telegraph Agency, Sofia,
We received a copy of your news dated July 25, 2001, concerning our
publication project (The Project `Turk').
First of all, we have not yet received any letter from Bulgarian
scholars, which they refer to. Perhaps it is due nowadays to reach
us. Thus, we preferred to address you, since we cannot tell anything
to those scholars signing that letter before receiving their appeal.
Let them be sure that we will kindly respond them.
Secondly, we do not understand what is meant by "the attempts to
identify the Bulgarians of Volga Bulgaria as a Turkish or Turkic
people and to present them and Danube Bulgaria as part of the
Turkish/Turkic world..." The meaning is obvious, but we, even
Turks at all, cannot be addressed in this issue. Our colleagues should know
well that among Turkish historians nobody, except Osman Karatay, our
project coordinator, has worked particularly on Proto-Bulgarian
history. Even Prof. A. N. Kurat, one of the pioneering researchers of
Eastern European historiography, disregarded Danubian (Proto) Bulgars
in his very detailed and scholarly works about the Turks of Eastern
Europe. So, we are of the opinion that what is meant by the above
phrase on Bulgars is not the original view of Yeni Turkiye, but is
the opinion of eminent historians of Bulgaria like Zlatarski and
Beshevliev, and other very well-known and respectable scholars like
Moravcsik, Marquart, Smirnov, Baskakov, Feher, Dvornik, Halperin,
Czegledy, Obolensky, Vernadsky, Ostrogorsky, Dabrowski, Rasony,
Menges, Runciman, Rona-Tas, Zimonyi, and others. Moreover, even Prof.
Hristo Hristov, about whom nobody can say that he likes Turks a
little bit, writes that Proto-Bulgarians were obviously `a Turkic
tribe'.
Our Bulgarian colleagues think that here is a crime of making (Proto)
Bulgarians Turk, but we do not understand why they choose us to be
scapegoats. They should discuss the problem with before-mentioned
names, who made and make use of primary sources in their researches,
and cannot be accused of acting with `pro-Turk' sentiments.
You may disregard Medieval Islamic sources clearly defining Bulgars
as one of Turkish tribes, but not European, primarily Byzantine and Russian
ones, about which our colleagues are certainly well informed. In
addition to those primary sources, there are inscriptions from both
Danubian and Volga areas. They were read letter by letter, and it was
proven that they both were exactly same languages, with some
unimportant sound differences, which is very normal since there is a
time interval of half a millennium between writing times of the
Danubian and Volga inscriptions. Furthermore, we have today Chuvash
language, directly successor of Bulgaro-Oghur language. All these are
Turkic, as Turkic of Turkey. That is, there are hundreds of documents
clearly indicating identity of (Proto) Bulgars, but there is no sound
evidence pointing to any possibility of their non-Turkish origin.
If our colleagues say "They, Proto-Bulgarians must be non-Turkish,
because we want so", then we respect them. Because we personally
believe in democracy and post-modernism, warranting freedom of
expression of belief and ideas for everybody. But we will continue to
stand for science. All these are European values, as our colleagues
believe.
We are of the opinion that there are attempts by some Bulgarian
colleagues to show Bulgars as not Turkic. Their results are publicly
known. And we think that our Bulgarian colleagues should collect
signs to warn their co-nationals not to write so unscientific and
baseless things. Bulgaria have certainly had very great names in all
sciences; this tradition should be kept, and should not be victimized
to political accounts. And we want to express our stance and idea
that history is itself an important science, and should not be
injured by having submitted to politicians and social engineers.
Our colleagues speak of `racial' position of our project with
no proof, but they obviously show their stand for Indo-Iranian
racism.
We are accused of considering a 4000 years long history into account
by our Bulgarian colleagues, who, in their accusation letter, base
their thesis on 5000 or more years of the so-called Indo-Iranian
entity. They say that Medieval Bulgar civilization was a piece and
product of the settled, and not nomads, but do not know or regard
that among Eurasian nomads there were a lot of Iranic communities;
and they fail to explain how they did come to the Balkans if they
were not nomads. We want to refer to a question by a Canadian deputy
of the mid-19th century about the famous Indian chief: "How did
he pass our border if he is Sitting Bull, and how can we call him
Sitting Bull if he passed the border by walking?"
As for the so-called conference in Istanbul, we should confess that
we heard it first time by your news relying on the letter of the
seven Bulgarian scholars. We will organize a reception in Istanbul to
promote and evaluate our project, but, when we complete the project.
All our contributors know well about our time plan according to which
the Turkish edition will be published within January/February, 2002,
and the English one within May/June, 2002. That is, the date is
uncertain, and we did not send any invitation to anybody. As for the
invited 26 Bulgarians, our Bulgarian colleagues seem to have
misinformed. Among a few names mentioned in the news, there are some
whom we do not know at all, and some whom we missed to invite to the
project. We will immediately invite them to contribute to the
project. Please note that people have not been chosen according to
some criteria; we invite everybody available for us. We found names
and contacts of 86 Bulgarian and Turk historians from Bulgaria, and
want to reach to more people. It is an honor for us to extend our
invitation to the seven colleagues and to people that they may refer.
As for their regression that we do send official call to certain
institutions in Bulgaria, it is due to our very difficult situation:
There is no any database listing all institutions and names studying
in areas related to Turkish history, language and culture. We have
had to find them one by one, and it is normal to miss some of them,
which is not necessarily to be considered a deliberate act. We want
to remind that we have names and contributors from Argentina and New
Zealand.
Last but not the least, Prof. Omeljan Pritsak is undoubtedly one of
those at the paramount of Eurasian historiography. His studies are
available everywhere and concerning people know very well what he
thinks on this issue. Prof. Pritsak honored us by sending his very
valuable and wide essay titled "The Turkic nomads of Southeastern
Europe", of which the first part is devoted to Huns and
Bulgarians, respectively.
This is all for your information. We wish all the best for you and
BTA in general,
Cordially,
Osman KARATAY Prof. Kemal
???EK
Coordinator of the Project `Turk' Academic
Consultant
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bulgarian_Studies/message/448
From: "TURKIYE DERGISI" <turktarihi@t...>
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2001 4:59 pm
Subject: Ynt: [Bulgarian_Studies] Were Proto-Bulgars of Turkic
origin?..
Sorry Gospodin Georgiev,
Sorry for all. I'm sure your English is better than me and you
read how our reply was written in diplomatical courtesy.. I do not
understand why you are so angry. I have many Bulgarian friends and I
appreciate historiography of your country. You should see the news
bulletin by the BTA to see how we (Yeni Turkiye Publ.) were attacked.
I have no much time to spend for these kind of polemics. But we had
to reply, because we were baselessly accused and it was published by
the state news agency. I sent our reply to this group, as well as to
others, because the BTA did not publish our reply. If there is any
insultation in our reply, please remind me, I'll apologize; and
if there is any mistake please correct; it will be honor for us. We
are open to dialogue as we believe in democracy. But if you believe
that all ideas opposing your ones should be forbidden to express, let
it be... But the world will go on turning around...
Cordially to all members of this list,
Osman KARATAY
Coordinator of the Project `Turk'
Yeni Turkiye Research Center
Tel: (90-312) 442 62 42
Fax: (90-312) 442 62 52
www.turkish-history.com
turktarihi@t...
ytder@t...
osmankaratay@y...
----- Original Message -----
From: Jivko Georgiev <jivkox43georgiev@y...>
To:<Bulgaria...@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Bulgarian_Studies] Were Proto-Bulgars of Turkic
origin?..
Im sure that You know verry well to what level of
anger you will bring all of us, the bulgarians here,
but You keep pretending You are have no idea about it.
Be nice, and dont publish such things, please! And I
want to ask the moderator of the group exactly why he
published that message, when it is offensive one?
>
Jivko Georgiev, Sofia
> --- TURKIYE DERGISI <turktarihi@t...> wrote:
> Dear Colleagues,
> >
> Lass week a group of Bulgarian
> administrative-professors signed a (kind of)
> memorandum to protest us (Yen Turkiye Publication
> and Research Center) of listing Danube and Volga
> Bulgars in the topic plan of our project `Turk', an
> international and transnational history project
> aiming at preparing a general history of Turks from
> the very ancient times upto the current
> developments. That protest was published by BTA
> (Bulgarian Telegraph Agency) in news bulletin. Our
> reply the the agency and to our colleagues is below:
> >
> > -------------------
> >
> To BTA, Bulgarian Telegraph Agency, Sofia,
> >
> We received a copy of your news dated July 25, 2001,
> concerning our publication project (The Project
> `Turk').
> >
[.]
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bulgarian_Studies/message/453
From: joanne swift <josi_jo@y...>
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2001 10:42 am
Subject: Re: [Bulgarian_Studies] Were Proto-Bulgars of Turkic
origin?..
Be nice, and dont publish such things, please! And I
want to ask the moderator of the group exactly why he
published that message, when it is offensive one?
I, for one, was interested to read the post - I am a political activist
by nature, and I do not need to agree with a person to read their
thoughts & opinions - actually I am grateful when Leon gives us the
opportunity to hear & learn as much as our minds can hold - there are
a lot of issues currently going on in the Balkans - some of these
directly influence Bulgaria, others to a lesser extent - how can you
wish to sit there complacently with your eyes and ears shut to what
others think & feel? I would like to see more participation on this
list - I would like to see more discussions, more articles of interest,
more news, more about what your groups are doing & participating in -
this is a somewhat bland group compared with some of the livelier
discussions going on in other groups - josi
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bulgarian_Studies/message/450
For fair use only.
---------------------
Asparuh Turkomongolov
Bulgars, DO NOT BE ashamed of YOUR Turko-Mongol HERITAGE!!!
-------------------------------
Anthropol Anz. 1999 Dec;57(4):349-60.
Dermatoglyphic characteristics of a population from the central
Rhodopes (south Bulgaria).
Kavgazova L, Stoev R, Mitova Z.
Institute of Experimental Morphology and Anthropology, Bulgarian
Academy of Sciences, Sofia, Bulgaria.
....A peculiarity of this population is the appearance of a clearly
expressed Eastern Complex (EC), which accounts for 53.1% in the males and
for 48.8% in the females.
These values of EC and the calculated dermatoglyphic distances (DD)
....show a similarity between the examined population and a number of
populations from the Volga region, Northern Caucasus, Middle Asia and
Siberia.
This similarity could be explained with the preservation of the
genetic heritage of the proto-Bulgarians, one of the three main components
of the modern Bulgarians.
----------------------
For fair use only.
Asparuh Turkomongolov
Bulgars, DO NOT BE ashamed of YOUR Turko-Mongol HERITAGE!!!
ULAN BATOR
Me vary happy FYROMISTAN very happy.
We make fun together yes.
Wait me bring some horse milk.
Turk horse milk no good FYROMISTAN horse milk best.
Ilya Talev
message news:syGNb.14022$Wa....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Asparuh Turkomongolov
>
> Bulgars, DO NOT BE ashamed of YOUR
> Turko-Mongol HERITAGE!!!
What's your problem, boy!
Bulgarians are ... whatever they are.
How does this concern YOU?
Or, are you a Bulgarian, and made
to be ashamed of it?
++
ULAN BATOR wrote:
No, Cengis (learn to spell), water buffalo milk is best
BIVOLICA
June R Harton
"Asparuh Turkomongolov" <Turkomong...@AltaiDomovina.com> wrote in
message news:syGNb.14022$Wa....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>Bulgars, DO NOT BE ashamed of YOUR Turko-Mongol HERITAGE!!!
Tell the Fyrom Slavs speakers that.
from: Spirit of Truth
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
YULKA
"++" <arch...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:40076D12...@erols.com...
But you still put horse milk in your cereal, every morning.
Just like your Cuman ancestors.
Hrel Vylk
Ilya> "Asparuh Turkomongolov"
Ilya> <Turkomong...@AltaiDomovina.com> wrote in message
Ilya> news:syGNb.14022$Wa....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> Asparuh Turkomongolov
>>
>> Bulgars, DO NOT BE ashamed of YOUR Turko-Mongol HERITAGE!!!
Ilya> What's your problem, boy! Bulgarians are ... whatever they
Ilya> are. How does this concern YOU? Or, are you a Bulgarian, and
Ilya> made to be ashamed of it?
Probably he has noticed that lately you have run out of arguments in
support of you Turkic theory, so he is trying hard to help you.
--
Peace
Ilya Talev
"Hrel Vylk" <nob...@somewhere.com> wrote in message
news:uptdjf...@somewhere.com...
> Probably he has noticed that lately
> you have run out of arguments in
> support of you Turkic theory, so
> he is trying hard to help you.
Oh, no!
Prosto ne iskam da ti otnema himerata,
che si kelto-ugro-persiec.
P.S. Get a real newsgroup software,
the one you use is...
Michael Clay
And water buffalo milk makes better yogurt and cheese!
Michael Clay
281-371-0334
Buffal...@TheClays.com
http://www.BuffaloDairy.com/
++
Delighted to hear from you. I asset, bar none, the most delicious yoghurt in the world is from bivolitsa,
i.e. the famle water buffalo. My friends from Transylvania and I tasted this by accident. We were looking
for sheep's mi.k yoghurt and could not find any in the big grocery store in Cluj, Romania but saw a happy
cartoon sheep with a loving heart snuggling up next to a happy water buffalo on a carton that looks like
the kind we here in the US are used to getting kefir or drinkable yoghurt in . So, I figured, why not?
Let's give it a try and we brought it home to Turda where we all were. It turned out to be a very thick
yoghurt made from the milk of the two animals, and was absolutely heavenly. We all fell in love with the
taste.
Imagine my delight, then, on the way to Rila in the countryside of Bulgaria, to stop at a kind of a
roadside place that had pastrma (a kind of ancient sort of pastrami), a bunch of shepherds' kinds of
cheeses and sausages and YOGHURT from the darling bivolitsa by herself. Even more heavenly!. I asked
which culture they had used and they said lactobacilus bulgaricus, available at a lot of health food stores
as a separate bacteria, so I suggest you make some like that.
Joe Krall
> "Asparuh Turkomongolov" <Turkomong...@AltaiDomovina.com> wrote in
> message news:syGNb.14022$Wa....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> >Bulgars, DO NOT BE ashamed of YOUR Turko-Mongol HERITAGE!!!
>
This was taken from a web site that YULKA has brought to my attention
http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/macedonia/macmodlan.html
BULGARS, TURKIC, also Proto-Bulgarians, Pra-Bulgarians.
A pastoral people, originally living in Central Asia.
Swept westward in the great movement of steppe peoples that brought
the Huns and later the Avars to Europe, some Bulgar tribes settled in
Pannonia, where they were dominated by the Avars and took part in
their campaigns against the Franks, Lombards, and Byzantines.
In the 7th century many of these Pannonian Bulgars settled in Italy,
in Lombardy, the Rimini-Osimo area, and the region of Benevento.
The main body of the Bulgar tribes, dwelling north of the Azof Sea and
the river Kuban, were dominated by the Western Turkic khaganate from
the mid-6th century onward.
In 632, profiting from divisions among their Turkic rulers, these
Bulgars revolted successfully and formed a powerful confederation of
Bulgar and related tribes known as Great Bulgaria, led by Kuvrat.
Herakleios, seeking a reliable ally to block the Khazar advance
westward, concluded a treaty with Kuvrat.
After Kuvrat diet, Great Bulgaria broke up under Khazar pressure.
Some tribes migrated to the Volga-Kama region,
some probably joined their kinsmen in Pannonia,
some remained under Khazar rule, and some, led by Asparugh, migrated
westward to the area between the Dnieper and the Danube delta.
YULKA
"Joe Krall" <joek...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:b451c9ae.04012...@posting.google.com...
Gee, I didn’t realize that Croatians were interested in Bulgarian history.
Thanks for the info, and Greetings to all proud Croatians, you have a beautiful country and lovely people.
I hope to visit Dubrovnik again one day (if the Serbian police and customs haiduks will stop harassing Bulgarians traveling to Croatia).
Regards,YULKA.
Joe Krall
> history.
Balkan history in general is quite fascinating to me.BTW please don't
make assumptions on my ethnicity. You do know what happens when people
assume?
>
> Thanks for the info, and Greetings to all proud Croatians, you have a
> beautiful country and lovely people.
>
> I hope to visit Dubrovnik again one day (if the Serbian police and
> customs haiduks will stop harassing Bulgarians traveling to Croatia).
Turkish and Croatian airlines have daily specials from Bulgaria to
Croatia. If you are ever in Bulgaria come on by! We will leave the
light on for you!
Cheers
>
>
>
> Regards,YULKA.
>
>
>
>
> --
YULKA
"Joe Krall" <joek...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:b451c9ae.0401...@posting.google.com...
> "YULKA" <jpe...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message news:<DvjQb.25417> Gee, I didn't realize that Croatians were interested in Bulgarian
> > history.
>
> Balkan history in general is quite fascinating to me.BTW please don't
> make assumptions on my ethnicity.
And look who is talking!
BTW Cara is not a Turkish name.
And Bulgarians are not Turks, NEVER WERE AND NEVER WILL BE!!!
You do know what happens when people
> assume?
> >
Well that depends, if I was to assume that I am Bulgarian in Serbia and FYROM, I will get a very rough treatment by their Ethnic Harassment Departments.
>
> Turkish and Croatian airlines have daily specials from Bulgaria to
> Croatia. If you are ever in Bulgaria come on by! We will leave the
> light on for you!
>
My only guess is Turks are enchanted by SerboFYROMian propaganda, because both Serbs and FYROMS insist that Bulgarians are Turks. But what you don’t know is that they use this argument as an excuse to incite anti-Bulgarian hatred.
So if you are a Turk or whatever, supporting SerboFYROMian propaganda, please don’t mind if I call you a Serbling!
> Cheers
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards,YULKA.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
Joe Krall
> "Joe Krall" <joek...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:b451c9ae.0401...@posting.google.com...
> > "YULKA" <jpe...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message news:<DvjQb.25417>
> Gee, I didn't realize that Croatians were interested in Bulgarian
> > > history.
> >
> > Balkan history in general is quite fascinating to me.BTW please
> don't
> > make assumptions on my ethnicity.
>
> And look who is talking!
>
> BTW Cara is not a Turkish name.
I never mentioned the name Cara in any post.
>
> And Bulgarians are not Turks, NEVER WERE AND NEVER WILL BE!!!
I just took the information from the site that you posted and used to
support your arguments against the citizens from FYROM.
I will repost the info and the site. I would hope that you will review
the information in regards to the origin of the Bulgarians and slavic
Macedonians.
If you do have any issue with the information posted below please
email the administer of the site.
This was taken from a web site that YULKA has brought to my attention
http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/macedonia/macmodlan.html
BULGARS, TURKIC, also Proto-Bulgarians, Pra-Bulgarians.
A pastoral people, originally living in Central Asia.
Swept westward in the great movement of steppe peoples that brought
the Huns and later the Avars to Europe, some Bulgar tribes settled in
Pannonia, where they were dominated by the Avars and took part in
their campaigns against the Franks, Lombards, and Byzantines.
In the 7th century many of these Pannonian Bulgars settled in Italy,
in Lombardy, the Rimini-Osimo area, and the region of Benevento.
The main body of the Bulgar tribes, dwelling north of the Azof Sea and
the river Kuban, were dominated by the Western Turkic khaganate from
the mid-6th century onward.
In 632, profiting from divisions among their Turkic rulers, these
Bulgars revolted successfully and formed a powerful confederation of
Bulgar and related tribes known as Great Bulgaria, led by Kuvrat.
Herakleios, seeking a reliable ally to block the Khazar advance
westward, concluded a treaty with Kuvrat.
After Kuvrat diet, Great Bulgaria broke up under Khazar pressure.
Some tribes migrated to the Volga-Kama region,
some probably joined their kinsmen in Pannonia,
some remained under Khazar rule, and some, led by Asparugh, migrated
westward to the area between the Dnieper and the Danube delta.
>
>
> You do know what happens when people
> > assume?
> > >
> Well that depends, if I was to assume that I am Bulgarian in Serbia
> and FYROM, I will get a very rough treatment by their Ethnic Harassment
> Departments.
>
>
> >
> > Turkish and Croatian airlines have daily specials from Bulgaria to
> > Croatia. If you are ever in Bulgaria come on by! We will leave the
> > light on for you!
> >
> My only guess is Turks are enchanted by SerboFYROMian propaganda,
> because both Serbs and FYROMS insist that Bulgarians are Turks. But what
> you don't know is that they use this argument as an excuse to incite
> anti-Bulgarian hatred.
>
> So if you are a Turk or whatever, supporting SerboFYROMian propaganda,
> please don't mind if I call you a Serbling!
>
>
> > Cheers
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards,YULKA.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
>
> --
YULKA
I don’t have any issues with any info you posted!
BTW where did you come with the ridiculous idea that Macedonians and FYROMs are Slavic?
Last time I saw a bunch of FYROMS here in Australia, they reminded me of Iraqi people!
And if it’s of any benefit to you the average FYROM is ten shades darker than the average Bulgarian!
So according to their racist theories, it shouldn’t be an insult to call them Bulgarians, since Bulgarians are generally whiter!
"Joe Krall" <joek...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:b451c9ae.04012...@posting.google.com...
Hrel Vylk
YULKA> I don't have any issues with any info you posted! BTW where
YULKA> did you come with the ridiculous idea that Macedonians and
YULKA> FYROMs are Slavic? Last time I saw a bunch of FYROMS here in
YULKA> :country-region>:place>Australia, they reminded me of Iraqi
YULKA> people! And if it's of any benefit to you the average FYROM
YULKA> is ten shades darker than the average Bulgarian! So according
YULKA> to their racist theories, it shouldn't be an insult to call
YULKA> them Bulgarians, since Bulgarians are generally whiter!
YULKA, когато участваш в тия спорове наистина е по добре да изключваш
s.c.b. Със всичките фиромски дивотии групата става наистина грозна и
неприятна за четене.
Не се опитвам да давам съвети никому, но наистина мисля че да спориш
с фироми и ужасна загуба на време.
--
Peace
Grigor Gatchev
> "YULKA" <SERB...@SERBOFYROMIA.TURKEY.com> wrote in message news:<40130401$0$26119$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>...
> > "Joe Krall" <joek...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:b451c9ae.0401...@posting.google.com...
> > > "YULKA" <jpe...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message news:<DvjQb.25417>
> Gee, I didn't realize that Croatians were interested in Bulgarian
> > > > history.
> > >
> > > Balkan history in general is quite fascinating to me.BTW please
> don't
> > > make assumptions on my ethnicity.
> >
> > And look who is talking!
> >
> > BTW Cara is not a Turkish name.
>
> I never mentioned the name Cara in any post.
>
>
>
> >
> > And Bulgarians are not Turks, NEVER WERE AND NEVER WILL BE!!!
> I just took the information from the site that you posted and used to
> support your arguments against the citizens from FYROM.
> I will repost the info and the site. I would hope that you will review
> the information in regards to the origin of the Bulgarians and slavic
> Macedonians.
> If you do have any issue with the information posted below please
> email the administer of the site.
Every people have some ones that have bizzaire views on the people's
origin. Nothing new under the sun.
I should admit, however, that we are quite distantly related to the
Turks (not that relation to them, or to any other people, is
detrimental; it's simply either a fact, and therefore welcome, or a
lie, and therefore offensive). For example, we are closer relatives to
even the modern Italians than to the Turks; our relation with the
Finns and the Hungarians is about as distant as with the Turks. And as
for a relation with the Mongols, it is about as close as any relation
between a Caucasian and an Asian peoples.
Also, every people have some ones that have intentionally false views
on other peoples origins. Happily, at least _these_ are very few among
the Bulgarians. A thing we ought to be proud with.
Joe Krall
> origin. Nothing new under the sun.
This is true! Unfortunately when it comes to the Balkans there seems
to be many people with bizarre views and hatred (This goes for every
nation in the Balkans).
>
> I should admit, however, that we are quite distantly related to the
> Turks (not that relation to them, or to any other people, is
> detrimental; it's simply either a fact, and therefore welcome, or a
> lie, and therefore offensive).
From a cultural and linguistic perspective it is interesting to note
that Bulgarians, Macedonians, and Albanians shake their heads from
side to sied to say yes and nod to say no.
For example, we are closer relatives to
> even the modern Italians than to the Turks;
In order for Yulka to claim the "Bulgarian" nature of Fyrom's citizens
he used information from this web site.
http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/macedonia/macmodlan.html
This site claims that Macedonians are Bulgarians and that Bulgarians
are Turkic Peoples. Their is nothing wrong with this statement.
I think as soon as the people of the Balkans can accept their past
they can go on to their future.
Cheers!
Joe Krall
Grigor Gatchev
> This is true! Unfortunately when it comes to the Balkans there seems
> to be many people with bizarre views and hatred (This goes for every
> nation in the Balkans).
And then, every nation here seeks the reason and the solution
everywhere but inside itself...
> From a cultural and linguistic perspective it is interesting to note
> that Bulgarians, Macedonians, and Albanians shake their heads from
> side to sied to say yes and nod to say no.
I didn't knew that Albanians do it, too. :-)
> For example, we are closer relatives to
> > even the modern Italians than to the Turks;
>
> In order for Yulka to claim the "Bulgarian" nature of Fyrom's citizens
> he used information from this web site.
>
> http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/macedonia/macmodlan.html
>
> This site claims that Macedonians are Bulgarians and that Bulgarians
> are Turkic Peoples. Their is nothing wrong with this statement.
>
> I think as soon as the people of the Balkans can accept their past
> they can go on to their future.
>
> Cheers!
> Joe Krall
The Pra-Bulgarians were a Turkic (but not Turkish, and least of all
Mongol), Hunnic or similar people. (For a comparison: Hazars, Magyars,
Tatars etc. are also Turkic or Hunno-Turkic peoples.) But their share
in the modern Bulgarian pool seems to be no more than 5%; the almost
only thing left from them is the name of the state, and few dozens of
words in the language (out of over 120 000 total).
So, the problem is not with us accepting our origin (at least, with
most of us). It seems to be with others accepting our origin. (Them,
accepting their origin, is their problem, not mine.)
For some of these others, the problem with accepting our origin is
related with their problem with accepting their own origin. They
desperately need to claim that their state, people and language are
over 60 years old (as if that is somehow shameful, or detrimental; as
if most, if not all existing now countries hasn't been born in this
way). For this reason, they try to steal our and Greek history, and to
justify the theft, try to assign us and Greeks false, coined by them
origins.
Joe Krall
If you say so,but then again you might have an agenda. Can you list
your sources?
the almost
> only thing left from them is the name of the state, and few dozens of
> words in the language (out of over 120 000 total).
>
> So, the problem is not with us accepting our origin (at least, with
> most of us). It seems to be with others accepting our origin. (Them,
> accepting their origin, is their problem, not mine.)
>
> For some of these others, the problem with accepting our origin is
> related with their problem with accepting their own origin. They
> desperately need to claim that their state, people and language are
> over 60 years old (as if that is somehow shameful, or detrimental; as
> if most, if not all existing now countries hasn't been born in this
> way). For this reason, they try to steal our and Greek history,
Who are "they",and "our". If they are "you" then isn't "our" history
theirs as well:)?
and to
> justify the theft, try to assign us and Greeks false, coined by them
> origins.
A lot of what I have seen the past few weeks on this and other Balkan
newsgroup has been false. I think that anonymity allows for rude
behaviour.
Most of my friends from the Balkans get along fine.
I haven't seen a nation or state yet that doesn't have its own agenda
or myths.
Here are a few examples of myths that are believed by some:
Poland, Greece,Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania and Albania are Homogenous
Ethnic states
Nikola Tesla was a Serb
During Tito's dictatorship he was assasinated and replaced by a Serb
look alike
Alexander the Great was Macedonian Greek
Alexander the Great was Macedonian Slav
Alexander the Great was Macedonian Wlach
Vlachs are the autochtonous of the hellenic peninsula
If Bulgarians and Macedonians (from FYROM) are the same people I would
expect more unity and friendship between the two groups.What I have
seen is more unity between Bulgarians and Albanians, Serbs and Greeks.
I guess Balkan countries are strange like that.
Grigor Gatchev
> > The Pra-Bulgarians were a Turkic (but not Turkish, and least of all
> > Mongol), Hunnic or similar people. (For a comparison: Hazars, Magyars,
> > Tatars etc. are also Turkic or Hunno-Turkic peoples.) But their share
> > in the modern Bulgarian pool seems to be no more than 5%;
>
> If you say so,but then again you might have an agenda. Can you list
> your sources?
Far too many to be listed. Some ideas:
About the origin of the Pra-Bulgarians, you might like to read the
world most trusted sources. If you like, you may seek for the most
distinguished historicians on the topic; if not, a simple check in
Encyclopaedia Britannica and similar sources would do.
About the origin of the Hazars, Magyars, Tatars etc.: The same
approach.
About the share of the Pra-Bulgarians in the modern Bulgarian pool: a
lot of criteria might be used (linguistic, genetic, cultural etc.).
For each criterion, check the appropriate sources.
Sorry for the indirect answer, but a detailed listing of what you
asked for would take several days to compile, and would require a
discussion and comments that would take months to write. I don't have
all that spare time. If you are interested, you may do the seek and
grasp the idea within a couple of days.
For a comparison: Can you list undisputable sources for the basics of
the arithmetics, for example? If you try, you will meet the same
problem. Answers like "every math schoolbook for first-graders" are as
oblique as "every history schoolbook for first-graders"...
Joe Krall
>
> > > The Pra-Bulgarians were a Turkic (but not Turkish, and least of all
> > > Mongol), Hunnic or similar people. (For a comparison: Hazars, Magyars,
> > > Tatars etc. are also Turkic or Hunno-Turkic peoples.) But their share
> > > in the modern Bulgarian pool seems to be no more than 5%;
> >
> > If you say so,but then again you might have an agenda. Can you list
> > your sources?
>
> Far too many to be listed. Some ideas:
If you can just list the source that claims modern day Bulgarians or
Proto-Bulgarians have share 5% of their genetic make-up with the
Turkic peoples (I don't know which turkic group you were refering to
above). People tend to play games with numbers even people from the
Balkans:)My Albanian friends claim that their are at least a million
Albanians living in Greece, one million in Turkey, one million in
Italy, 500,000 in Fyrom, 500,000 in Serbia and Montenegro (not
including Kosovo/a). So you will understand that I am skeptical when
someone gives me percentages.