Churchill on Islam (1899)

[and/or www.mantra.com/jai]

Forwarded post:

Winston Churchill 1899.

"Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the
influence of the religion paralyses the social
development of those who follow it.No stronger retrograde
force exists in the world."

Churchill On Islam

The attached short speech from Winston Churchill, was
delivered by him in 1899 when he was a young soldier and
journalist. It probably sets out the current views of
many, but expresses in the wonderful Churchillian turn of
phrase and use of the English language, of which he was a
past master. Sir Winston Churchill was, without doubt,
one of the greatest men of the late 19th and 20th
centuries.

He was a brave young soldier, a brilliant journalist, an
extraordinary politician and statesman, a great war
leader and British Prime Minister, to whom the Western
world must be forever in his debt. He was a prophet in
his own time. He died on 24th January 1965, at the grand
old age of 90 and, after a lifetime of service to his
country, was accorded a State funeral.

Here Is The Speech:

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on
its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as
dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this
fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in
many countries, improvident habits, slovenly systems of
agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity
of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet
rule or live.

A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and
refinement, the next of its dignity and sanctity. The
fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to
some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a
wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of
slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great
power among men.

Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the
influence of the religion paralyses the social
development of those who follow it. No stronger
retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being
moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing
faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa,
raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not
that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of
science, the science against which it had vainly
struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall,
as fell the civilization of ancient Rome ..."

Sir Winston Churchill; (Source: The River War, first
edition, Vol II, pages 248-250 London).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_River_War

Posted by Srinivasan Kalyanaraman

http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.com/2013/05/churchill-on-islam-1899.html

End of forwarded post.

Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi
Om Shanti

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.jai-maharaj

[and/or www.mantra.com/jai]

Dr. Jai Maharaj posted:

>
> Forwarded post:
>
> Winston Churchill 1899.
>
> "Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the
> influence of the religion paralyses the social

'Root causes' of Islamist jihadism -- Ali A. Rizvi

Ali A. Rizvi Pakistani-Canadian writer, physician and
musician

An Atheist Muslim's Perspective on the 'Root Causes' of
Islamist Jihadism and the Politics of Islamophobia

May 3, 2013

The ambassador answered us that [their right] was founded
on the Laws of the Prophet, that it was written in their
Koran, that all nations who should not have answered
their authority were sinners, that it was their right and
duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found,
and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners,
and that every Mussulman who should be slain in battle
was sure to go to Paradise.

The above passage is not a reference to a declaration by
al Qaeda or some Iranian�fatwa. They arethe words of
Thomas Jefferson, then the U.S. ambassador to France,
reporting to Secretary of State John Jay a conversation
he'd had with Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja, Tripoli's
envoy to London, in 1786 -- more than two and a quarter
centuries ago.

That is before al Qaeda and the Taliban, before the
creation of Israel or the Arab-Israeli conflict, before
Khomeini, before Saudi Arabia, before drones, before most
Americans even knew what jihad or Islam was, and, most
importantly, well before the United States had engaged in
a single military incursion overseas or even had an
established foreign policy.

At the time, thousands of American and European trade
ships entering the Mediterranean had been targeted by
pirates from the Muslim�Barbary states�(modern-day North
Africa). More than a million Westerners had been
kidnapped, imprisoned and enslaved. Tripoli was the nexus
for these operations. Jefferson's attempts to negotiate
resulted in deadlock, and he was told simply that the
kidnapping and enslavement of the infidels would
continue, tersely articulated by Adja in the exchange
paraphrased above.

Adja's position wasn't a random one-off. This conflict
continued for years, seminally resulting in the Treaty of
Tripoli, signed into law by President John Adams in 1797.
Article 11 of the document, a direct product of the
United States' first-ever overseas conflict, contained
these famous words, cementing America's fundamental
commitment to secularism:

Continues at:

http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.com/2013/05/causes-of-islamist-jihadism-ali-rizvi.html

[and/or www.mantra.com/jai]

In article
<fae26734-f0f5-4808...@googlegroups.com>,
fanabba <fana...@aol.com> posted:
>
> Dr. Jai Maharaj posted:

> >
> > > Forwarded post:
> > >
> > > Winston Churchill 1899.
> > >
> > > "Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the
> > > influence of the religion paralyses the social

> I found this anonymous quote on the web.
>
> "Debating Muslims is like playing chess with a pigeon. No
> matter how good you are, the pigeon will back over all
> the pieces, shit on the board and claim victory!"

Dhnayavaad for your post. Islam is a terrorist cult.

[nusratr...@gmail.com]

[and/or www.mantra.com/jai]

[and/or www.mantra.com/jai]

[The gods have made us mad]

"use...@mantra.com and/or www.mantra.com/jai (Dr. Jai Maharaj)" wrote in
message news:201305023So6NaFe83q@BeDW...

In article
<fae26734-f0f5-4808...@googlegroups.com>,
fanabba <fana...@aol.com> posted:<<................. <<<<<<<


Hoi. never mind all that!! - the fan is slowing down!!!.......

[Topaz]

Tiptoeing around Our Problems
By Dr. William Pierce

"We've been talking about the very dangerous situation in the Middle
East recently, just because so much is happening there, and
undoubtedly we'll be talking about it much more in the future. For
that reason I want to make very clear what my motives and sympathies
are, lest I lead anyone astray and be thought a hypocrite for doing
so. First, regarding Palestine: although my sympathies definitely lie
with the Palestinians rather than with the Jews, it is not horror at
what the Jews are doing to the Palestinians that motivates me. What
motivates me is horror that my country is being used by the Jews in
their war against the Palestinians. If America were not involved at
all in the Middle East I still would sympathize with the Palestinians
and I would wish that they could be successful in driving the Jews
into the sea and annihilating the abomination that is Israel, but that
conflict between Jews and Palestinians would not be a major concern
for me. At least, my
concern there would be dwarfed by my concern for problems more
directly involving my own people in America and in Europe and in
southern Africa.

Even now, with money and weapons being supplied by America and used to
slaughter Palestinians, my concern is much less with monsters like
Ariel Sharon who are doing the slaughtering than it is with the filthy
creatures among my own people in America who are collaborating with
Jews here to keep the weapons and money flowing to Sharon -- and are
ready to do whatever else the Jews require of them here or abroad.

So when I tell you about Jews in occupied Palestine shooting
Palestinian children, and disapproval and anger are evident in my
voice, what I really am angry about is that the American people, my
people, are being used for this murderous activity. I am angry that
America's whole foreign policy has been perverted to serve Jewish
interests at the expense of American interests. I am angry that
America's political system has been perverted to ensure that we always
have so-called "leaders," whether Democrat or Republican, who are
dependent on the Jewish media or Jewish money or both for their
election and consequently will do the bidding of the Jews. I am angry
that our whole government is riddled with Jews -- Jews in our Defense
Department, Jews in our State
Department, Jews in our Immigration and Naturalization Service, Jews
in our Justice Department, Jews in the President's speech-writing
staff - who really set the policies of our government behind the
scenes, while the politicians are out front in the spotlight making
speeches and kissing babies - and doing as they're told by the Jews
behind the
scenes.

Did you know that it was a Jewish speechwriter, David Frum, who put
the phrase "axis of evil" in George Bush's mouth to justify America's
ongoing war against Israel's enemies? Did you know that a clique of
Jews in the Defense Department and among George Bush's foreign policy
advisers are the people actually running the so-called "war on terror"
in Afghanistan: a war that they intend to expand to Iraq and any other
Middle Eastern country that gets uppity, in order to make that part of
the world safe for Israel at American expense? Secretary of Defense
Donald Rumsfeld is a front man for his nominal subordinates, Deputy
Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz and Deputy Undersecretary of
Defense for Policy Douglas Feith; and George Bush's official foreign
policy adviser, Condoleezza Rice, helps him meet his Black quota for
the Cabinet, but it is the Jew Richard Perle, chairman of Bush's
Defense Policy Board, who gives him his foreign policy directives.

As I've said on more than one occasion, George Bush is a feckless
nincompoop who couldn't come up with a defense policy or a foreign
policy on his own if he had to -- which is why he's President. The
real policymakers behind the scenes certainly don't want a man in the
White House who has ideas of his own, because those ideas might
conflict with theirs.

And it is nothing but empty sophistry to make a distinction between
Jews in Israel, such as Ariel Sharon and Simon Peres, and the Jews in
Mr. Bush's administration formulating his policies or the Jews
controlling our mass media. They all are Jews, and that's what really
matters.

There are many knowledgeable Americans besides me who think that it's
not a good thing to have Jews using America to advance Israel's
interests at the expense of America's interests. They know how the
system works: how the Jews exert their control through money and media
and a well-entrenched network of Jewish operatives, such as Wolfowitz
and Feith and Perle. And many of these knowledgeable Americans also
understand how Jewish subterfuge and deceit work: they understand that
the Jews throw up a lot of smoke to conceal their control and make it
appear that they have much less influence than they actually do.

Despite this degree of understanding that many knowledgeable Americans
have, there seem to be very few who are willing or able to draw the
necessary conclusions. What I keep seeing are comments about the need
to get the so-called "peace process" going again in the Middle East,
and how there are hardline supporters of Israel who are obstructing
the "peace process" because they think that it will give too much to
the Palestinians or will compromise Israel's security, or whatever.
These knowledgeable Americans seem to believe that if we could just
get around the Jewish hardliners somehow -- if we could just
neutralize Jews such as Wolfowitz and Feith and Perle; if Ariel Sharon
could be replaced by a "moderate" Jewish prime minister -- then the
"peace process" could proceed, America could gradually reduce its
involvement in helping the Jews keep the Palestinians repressed, and
eventually Israel no longer would be using America, and everything
would be rosy. And so these knowledgeable Americans expend all of
their wit and energy in these trivial pursuits.

Listen! Do you know what the most hopeful aspect of the conflict
between Jews and Palestinians is now? It is the ongoing radicalization
of the Muslim masses throughout the whole Middle East. The
collaborator governments in Pakistan, in Egypt, in Saudi Arabia are
terrified of the reaction they see among their own people to what
Ariel Sharon is doing to the Palestinians. When Sharon's Jewish troops
shoot Palestinian children, Muslim mobs riot, and governments that now
collaborate with the United States quake. Ariel Sharon is the best
thing that has happened in the Middle East in the last 54 years.

The Palestinian tactic of suicide bombing is being denounced by every
politician and every media spokesman over here now. It's nothing but
terrorism, they all say. There's no justification at all for suicide
bombing, they tell us. Of course, whenever you hear that sort of
unanimity from the politicians and the media people you should be
suspicious. In fact, suicide bombing is the best tactic for the
Palestinians to use now, because it provokes the Jews to step up
reprisals. And the reprisals radicalize the masses in every country in
the Middle East. If just one of the collaborator governments falls,
the spines of all the rest will be stiffened, and the Bush government
will be far less likely to find collaborators for building its
so-called "coalition" to do the will of the Jews in the Middle East.

Suicide bombers now hardly put a dent in the population of five
million Jews in occupied Palestine, and Sharon's bloody reprisals
hardly put a dent in the overall Palestinian population. But if
conflict of this sort continues until just one collaborator government
is overthrown, that ultimately will be worth more than ten thousand
successful suicide
bombings in which only 20 or so Jews are killed each time. In the long
run there can be no real peace in the Middle East and no end to
America's shameful role there -- and no future for the Palestinian
people -- as long as there is an Israel. There seems to be a better
understanding of these things among knowledgeable Palestinians than
among knowledgeable Americans.

Shallow thinking and the pursuit of trivial goals is even worse among
knowledgeable Americans when it comes to domestic problems. They
really do not want to grasp these problems with both hands and deal
with them in a forthright way. Look, for example, at what uncontrolled
immigration has done and is doing to America. And what do
knowledgeable Americans propose to do about that? Very little, really.
They make much of the fact that several of the al-Qaeda hijackers who
carried out the September 11 attack were in the United States only
because of very lax immigration policies, and so that's a good reason
for tightening up the policies.

How about simply rounding up all illegal aliens immediately -- all 12
million of them -- and booting them and all of their offspring out of
the country without further ado?

Oh, no, no, no! We can't do that! Why not? Well, the media never would
stand for it. The media would be all over anyone who even proposed a
mass expulsion of illegal aliens. They would denounce any political
leader who tried to do that as a "racist" and a "neo-Nazi." And so
knowledgeable Americans, who understand the immigration disaster quite
well, continue tiptoeing around it, afraid to do or even say anything
really significant about it: terrified even to think about really
radical solutions that might actually end the problem. And it's the
same with the rest of our domestic problems. Lots of people understand
these problems and are worried about them, but they won't tackle them
in any
significant way. They let the Jews -- the Jewish media and Jewish
money and the entrenched Jewish network -- have their way, for all
practical purposes.

Why? Why are the Jews permitted to get away with all of their
destructive policies and activities without being challenged or
opposed in any significant way? Part of the reason is that the Jews
are very powerful, and therefore many people are afraid to cross them.
They're afraid of the sort of media reaction I just mentioned in
connection with immigration. Everyone understands that the Jews stick
together and will viciously attack anyone who opposes them. It's the
old story, so aptly expressed by the late-16th-century writer, Sir
John Harington. Harington wrote: "Treason doth never prosper: what's
the reason? For if it prosper, none dare call it treason." Today the
Jewish power structure is
prospering, and none dare oppose it or even call it what it is. Well,
that's only part of the reason Jews are permitted to get away with so
much. There's more to it than that. There's a mystique the Jews have
built very carefully around themselves and nurtured diligently. It is
a mystique of piety and injured innocence. It is a mystique that says
to the Gentile world: "We are a gentle and inoffensive race, and
because of this everyone hates us. We're smart and we work hard and
achieve success, and because of this everyone hates us. We are a
highly moral and ethical race, and because of this everyone hates us.
We are a very talented race, with many gifted members, many geniuses,
and because of this everyone hates us. We are a very altruistic race,
a race of philanthropists who only want to make a better world for
everyone, and because of this everyone hates us."

Many simpletons among the lemmings simply accept these claims at face
value. Many knowledgeable people, however, who can see through these
claims to the real Jews hiding behind them, still hesitate to
challenge them. Part of the Jewish mystique is the so-called
"Holocaust." In its most simpleminded form the "Holocaust" story is
the claim that the
Germans hated the Jews for the reasons I just mentioned -- for their
gentleness and their success and their morality and their talent and
their altruism -- and because of this hatred roasted six million of
them during the Second World War in "gas ovens," to use one of the
Jews' favorite "Holocaust" phrases.

Actually, the "Holocaust" is a very powerful part of the Jewish
mystique. The Jews crafted the "Holocaust" story with great care and
great effort -- well, actually not with as much care as they might
have used: it's as full of holes as a Swiss cheese, but still it is
sufficient to make most people, even those who understand what Jews
are really like, hesitate to attack them. People don't want to be seen
as bullies. They don't want to be seen as so insensitive that they
would criticize the Jews, who already have suffered so much, poor
dears, at the hands of anti-Semites.

In several past broadcasts we've looked at a number of the lies and
exaggerations and distortions that make up the "Holocaust" story.
There are a number of good books available on the subject from the
sponsor of this broadcast, National Vanguard Books, including Norman
Finklestein's excellent book The Holocaust Industry, which I discussed
in an earlier broadcast. The point is that despite the lies, despite
the fact that many knowledgeable Americans are aware of the lies, the
"Holocaust" still serves its purpose for the Jews. People are afraid
of the image conjured up by the "Holocaust."

Perhaps it's that American life is too soft... Whatever the reason,
many otherwise knowledgeable and hardheaded Americans just can't
entertain the idea of rounding up the Jews and getting rid of them,
even when the situation is as urgent as it is in America today. And
really, in the long run that is the only way to solve the Jewish
problem.

The Germans understood that, back in the 1930s, and they had the
courage and the foresight to act on their understanding. Unlike
Americans today, they had an honest government concerned above all
with the survival, welfare, and progress of the German people, and
they began doing what was necessary, forcing the Jews to emigrate
wholesale from Germany beginning in 1933. And because of that the
Jewish propaganda machine has attacked the Germans so viciously, has
so blackened and demonized their image, that today even knowledgeable
people are afraid to be associated with that image. They are afraid to
say that the Germans were right, that the Germans were justified, and
that we need to do the same if we are to survive. So, as I said, the
"Holocaust" story, despite its
glaring discrepancies and lies, still serves as a shield for the Jews;
it still protects them from criticism.

Well, mostly. In parts of Europe not quite as poisoned by Jewish
propaganda as America is, the shield has slipped a bit. A large
British department store chain, Selfridges, has yielded to demands
from anti-Israel demonstrators and has removed from its shelves
products marked "Made in Israel." Last week the second largest
supermarket chain in Norway, Coop Norge -- which is to say, Norway
Coop, announced its decision to boycott all Israeli imports. That
decision was not the result of pressure from anti-Israel demonstrators
but was based on the feeling by Coop Norge management that it would be
immoral to continue supporting the Israeli economy by selling Israeli
imports under the
present circumstances. That is a step forward, though it is a long way
from what is needed.

The Jews, of course, immediately began waving their "Holocaust" story
around, and now, as the boycott movement catches hold in Scandinavia,
they are trying to portray themselves as injured innocents being
attacked once more by "anti-Semites." They are comparing the growing
Scandinavian boycott of Israeli products to the German boycott of
Jewish merchants in the late 1930s. Certainly, a boycott of Israeli
products is a good thing, and the fact that such a boycott is even
thinkable by big businessmen today is a sign that the Jewish mystique
-- and in particular the Jewish "Holocaust" story -- is becoming a bit
shopworn. It no longer has the hypnotic power that it once had -- at
least, in some parts of the world. And I suppose that we should be
happy about that. The unfortunate fact remains, however, that in
America the Jews still have their money and
their media and their entrenched network of bureaucrats, and even if
the "Holocaust" story has lost some of its charm in Europe, it still
keeps most knowledgeable Americans intimidated.

Knowledge isn't enough. Courage and boldness also are necessary.
Honesty and forthrightness are necessary also. Tiptoeing around the
critical issues of our time isn't enough. Tiny reforms in our
disastrous foreign policy and in our disastrous immigration policy and
in a dozen other disastrous policies aren't enough. We need to stop
apologizing to the people who are destroying us and go full bore at
destroying them instead.

Instead of being hypnotized by the "Holocaust" story we need to look
with clear eyes at why there was a need for action against the Jews in
Germany in the 1930s and 1940s. The Jews' claim today that the Germans
were suffering from collective insanity and had no reason for trying
to get the Jews off their backs is as phony as George Bush's claim
that
Osama bin Laden had no reason for attacking America on September 11.

Wherever Jews go they corrupt and destroy. That is their nature,
always and everywhere. Let us be thankful to the Palestinians who now
are making such terrible sacrifices to help the world see what the
Jews are like. And I suppose we also should be thankful to Ariel
Sharon for demonstrating so forthrightly to the world what Jews are
like.

Let us hope that the conflict between Jews and Palestinians
intensifies and lasts long enough to wake up many more of our people
around the world and fill them with disgust at America's continuing
support for the Jews. Let us hope that it lasts long enough to bring
about the overthrow of every collaborationist regime in the Muslim
world. Let us hope that it brings about an airtight oil embargo
against the United States and shuts off the lights in every shopping
mall and every sports stadium in America long enough for the lemmings
to become restless and begin asking questions. Let us hope that it
makes the efforts of every fool and every traitor who is striving for
a resumption of the so-called "peace process" so obviously futile that
these efforts no longer have the power to deceive anyone.

Ultimately, of course, we must not depend on the Palestinian suicide
bombers or on Ariel Sharon's murder squads to do for us what we should
be doing for ourselves. Ultimately we must stop tiptoeing and begin
marching boldly and forthrightly toward solving our own problems."


http://www.ihr.org/ http://nationalvanguard.org/ http://heretical.com/

http://national-socialist-worldview.blogspot.com

[pEranbu]

On 24 May, 20:34, use...@mantra.com and/or www.mantra.com/jai (Dr. Jai

> > >http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.com/2013/05/causes-of-islamist-jihadis...

>
> > I found this anonymous quote on the web.
>
> > "Debating Muslims is like playing chess with a pigeon. No
> > matter how good you are, the pigeon will back over all
> > the pieces, shit on the board and claim victory!"
>
> Dhnayavaad for your post. Islam is a terrorist cult.

There is absolutely no doubt. Sad the west is not admitting this and
thus is appeasing them. Cameron says terrorism is a betrayal of islam!
He either does not know it is the core of islam or he does not want to
openly say it

[abelard]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 05:39:33 -0700 (PDT), pEranbu
<tripur...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On 24 May, 20:34, use...@mantra.com and/or www.mantra.com/jai (Dr. Jai
>Maharaj) wrote:
>> In article
>> <fae26734-f0f5-4808...@googlegroups.com>,

>> > "Debating Muslims is like playing chess with a pigeon. No
>> > matter how good you are, the pigeon will back over all
>> > the pieces, shit on the board and claim victory!"
>>
>> Dhnayavaad for your post. Islam is a terrorist cult.
>
>There is absolutely no doubt. Sad the west is not admitting this and
>thus is appeasing them. Cameron says terrorism is a betrayal of islam!
>He either does not know it is the core of islam or he does not want to
>openly say it

there is a tendency that if you call the police pigs, you end up with
only pigs wanting to join....

if you say often enough that islam is a religion of peace, the great
mass of muslims will internalise that image...
the worst expression of judeo-christianism has passed into history

psychotherapeutic models are steadily encroaching on western
religion...thus there is ever less emphasis on hell-fire and
increasing emphasis on 'empathy'....
among the smallest families are now in countries like italy and spain.

a spanish catholic is not an irish catholic...

religions are not static rule systems...

[Dex]

Not just him either, any politician that isn't a 'swivel-eyed loon' will
say as much.


George W. Bush on Islam.

"Here in the United States our Muslim citizens are making many
contributions in business, science and law, medicine and education, and
in other fields. Muslim members of our Armed Forces and of my
administration are serving their fellow Americans with distinction,
upholding our nation's ideals of liberty and justice in a world at peace."

--

"Some of the comments that have been uttered about Islam do not reflect
the sentiments of my government or the sentiments of most Americans.
Islam, as practiced by the vast majority of people, is a peaceful
religion, a religion that respects others. Ours is a country based upon
tolerance and we welcome people of all faiths in America."



Obviously knows more about Islam than you ever will.

[pEranbu]

On 25 May, 10:04, Dex <D...@music.com> wrote:


> Obviously knows more about Islam than you ever will.

I am not surprised you quote G.W.Bush in support of Cameron! Both are
ignorant. Both politicians and are shallow.However, if you think that
Islam is peaceful in its theory and practice, why not give me some
evidence to support that contention. If I see evidence, I will
apologize. If you lose, will you apologize?
I think we can settle this with a scholarly discussion! Awaiting your
reply. If you cannot reply, you can nominate some one to discuss with
me! Even a Muslim

[Dex]

On 25/05/2013 19:25, pEranbu wrote:
> On 25 May, 10:04, Dex <D...@music.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Obviously knows more about Islam than you ever will.
>
> I am not surprised you quote G.W.Bush in support of Cameron! Both are
> ignorant. Both politicians and are shallow.

As I said in the part you snipped, wasn't just those two, any politician
of note.

> However, if you think that
> Islam is peaceful in its theory and practice, why not give me some
> evidence to support that contention. If I see evidence, I will
> apologize. If you lose, will you apologize?
> I think we can settle this with a scholarly discussion! Awaiting your
> reply. If you cannot reply, you can nominate some one to discuss with
> me! Even a Muslim
>

Oh gawd! Not one of those you cite this and I'll cite that discussions?
Where we both try to discredit each others source.


No thanks. It's a bank holiday weekend and I've better things to do.

[pEranbu]

No, Sir. I quote Koran. You have to defend it. Let us start with
chapter 8 verse 41. It allows looting property in war and distribution
amongst muslims
2-178 allows killing slaves as revenge
You think these came from God?!

This is just a start. More to come
Do you defend these?
Dont you think Churchill knew better?

[Dex]

On 26/05/2013 18:01, pEranbu wrote:
> On 26 May, 12:07, Dex <D...@music.com> wrote:
>> On 25/05/2013 19:25, pEranbu wrote:
>
>> Oh gawd! Not one of those you cite this and I'll cite that discussions?
>> Where we both try to discredit each others source.
>>
>> No thanks. It's a bank holiday weekend and I've better things to do.
>
> No, Sir. I quote Koran.

Nope, just a couple of sentences in a novel.

But there again you didn't really, unless you've studied Arabic. You're
relying on what someone else says it say in English.

[pEranbu]

Novel? But Muslims go by this word by word!
Now have you heard of tafsirs? There is a famous tafsir by a famous
islamic scholar Maulana Maududi: http://www.englishtafsir.com/Quran/8/index.html#sdfootnote32sym
See what he says about 8- 41 (foot note)
You dont have to know arabic. It is all translated by people including
an Englishman called Marmaduke Pickthall!
Many tafsirs are available. Looting is allowed. Will give more
evidence later.

Maududi says about 2- 178:



177The principle of the equality of the value of human life has been
prescribed here in order to meet the strictest claims of justice. The
value of blood and consequently retribution for it are not to be
determined by the rank of the slain or that of the murderer. It has,
therefore, been clearly laid down that the murderer himself shall be
made to pay for the blood.

Before the advent of Islam, they put a higher value on the blood of a
member of their own clan and demanded the life of a man of the same
rank from the clan of the murderer or the lives of scores or even
hundreds from the tribe of the murderer according to the value put on
the blood of the slain. On the other hand, if the murderer happened to
belong to a higher rank than that of the slain, their "judgement" was
that the life of the murderer should not be taken for the life of the
slain. And this inequality in the evaluation of blood was not confined
only to that age of ignorance. Even today the "civilised" nations are
not ashamed of declaring openly that if one person of their nation is
killed, they will take the lives of fifty men from the nation of the
murderer. And they put these challenges into practice. We often hear
that so many people belonging to the subject nation have been put to
death to avenge the murder of one person belonging to the ruling
nation. But if the murderer belonged to a "civilised" ruling nation
and the slain to an "uncivilised" subject nation, their judges would
not pass the sentence of death on him. In order to guard against these
unjust rules, Allah has ordained that the life of the murderer and the
murderer alone should be taken for the life of the slain, irrespective
of the rank or race of the murderer or that of the slain.

I am afraid you have studied none and still defend these people

[Dex]

On 26/05/2013 18:31, pEranbu wrote:
> On 26 May, 13:14, Dex <D...@music.com> wrote:
>> On 26/05/2013 18:01, pEranbu wrote:
>>
>>> On 26 May, 12:07, Dex <D...@music.com> wrote:
>>>> On 25/05/2013 19:25, pEranbu wrote:
>>
>>>> Oh gawd! Not one of those you cite this and I'll cite that discussions?
>>>> Where we both try to discredit each others source.
>>
>>>> No thanks. It's a bank holiday weekend and I've better things to do.
>>
>>> No, Sir. I quote Koran.
>>
>> Nope, just a couple of sentences in a novel.
>>
>> But there again you didn't really, unless you've studied Arabic. You're
>> relying on what someone else says it say in English.
>
> Novel? But Muslims go by this word by word!

Do they? Just Muslims is it? No Sunnis and Shi'a, no sectarian divisions
in Islam at all? Every single Muslims believing in exactly the same
thing with no different interpretations of what was said?

Then why the f*ck are they wasting energy killing each other and not
Kufars or Infidels or whatever they call us?


As I said earlier it is a holiday weekend and I have better things to to
that a cite this, cite that argument.


All I will say is no government in the Western world is trying to outlaw
Islam, deport all Muslims and bulldoze mosques, except Israel if some
kooks are to be believed, which they would be doing if they were all
hell bent on converting or killing everyone.

Even in America, where freedom of religion is paramount, if a religion
orders followers to kill unbelievers it is not longer protected under
the First Amendment.

Any plans by the Republicans or Democrats to outlaw Islam?

[pEranbu]

On 26 May, 14:11, Dex <D...@music.com> wrote:

> Do they? Just Muslims is it? No Sunnis and Shi'a, no sectarian divisions
> in Islam at all? Every single Muslims believing in exactly the same
> thing with no different interpretations of what was said?
>
> Then why the f*ck are they wasting energy killing each other and not
> Kufars or Infidels or whatever they call us?

If you still are naive:

Remember Muslims take Koran very very seriously. I dont think even
Christians did that to bible even in the past, not so much
All suicide bombers think they go to paradise- all in Koran

Why do you think they go around killing?

I am afraid you miss the point. All muslims share the concepts in
koran. Sunnis and shiites rule. Their differences are not these
verses! That is why I quoted them. There are more. Try these verses
commanding muslims to hate nonmuslims:

According to the Quran, non-believers...

Eat like beasts 47:12
Are apes 7:166, 5:60, 2:65
Are swines 5:60
Are asses 74:50
The vilest of animals in Allah's sight 8:55
Losers 2:27, 2:121, 3:85
Have a disease in their hearts 2:10, 5:52, 24:50
Are hard-hearted 39:22, 57:16
Impure of hearts 5:41
Are deaf 2:171, 6:25
Are blind 2:171, 6:25
Are dumb 2:171, 6:35, 11:29
Are niggardly 4:37, 70:21
Works shall be rendered ineffective 2:217, 47:1, 47:8
Are impure 8:37
Are scum 13:17
Are inordinate 5:68, 78:22
Are transgressors 2:26, 9:8, 46:20
Are unjust 29:49
Make mischief 16:88
Are the worst of men 98:6
Are in a state of confusion 50:5
Are the lowest of the low 95:5
Focus only on outward appearance 19:73-74
Are guilty 30:12, 77:46
Sinful liar 45:7
Follow falsehood 47:3
Deeds are like the mirage in a desert 24:39
also...
Allah does not love them 3:32, 22:38
Allah forsakes them 32:14, 45:34
Allah brought down destruction upon them 47:10
Allah has cursed them 2:88, 48:6
Allah despises them 17:18
Allah abases them 22:18

[Bill]

On Sun, 26 May 2013 13:21:58 -0700 (PDT), pEranbu
<tripur...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On 26 May, 14:11, Dex <D...@music.com> wrote:
>
>> Do they? Just Muslims is it? No Sunnis and Shi'a, no sectarian divisions
>> in Islam at all? Every single Muslims believing in exactly the same
>> thing with no different interpretations of what was said?
>>
>> Then why the f*ck are they wasting energy killing each other and not
>> Kufars or Infidels or whatever they call us?
>
>If you still are naive:
>
>Remember Muslims take Koran very very seriously. I dont think even
>Christians did that to bible even in the past, not so much

Even the ones who blow up abortion clinics?

[pEranbu]

On 26 May, 17:37, Bill <blackuse...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >Remember Muslims take Koran very very seriously. I dont think even
> >Christians did that to bible even in the past, not so much
>
> Even the ones who blow up abortion clinics?

Good question. Christians have their fanatics no doubt. But in theory
the Christian bible does not contain so many violent hate passages as
Koran.

[Bill]

Or the crusaders?

Or the very nasty seventeenth century religious wars.

Or the genocide of the Cathars. (remember that one? When the
commanding general was asked about how to tell the innocent from the
guilty and he replied 'Kill them all, God will know his own'.)

[saracene]

On May 26, 11:51 pm, Bill <blackuse...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 26 May 2013 15:14:51 -0700 (PDT), pEranbu
>

Those are not hate passages from the Christian Bible.
Here's one:-

"But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me,
it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck,
and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

[saracene]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ChristwithChildren_CarlBloch.jpg

Bit paedo that painting. Someone should have done one of him putting
a millstone round some social worker's neck.

[Bill]

Mathew 10:verse 34 to 36 is good as well...

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth, I come not to bring
peace, but a sword."

"For I am come to set a man at war against his father."