Georgian Plots?
MTRP™
<q>
But an investigation by the EU has uncovered “Order No. 2” dated Aug.
7, that says that Georgia was not defending itself but acting to
“reestablish constitutional order” in South Ossetia. The EU is
closely examining an Aug. 7 television interview in which Georgian
Gen. Mamuka Kurashjvili used just those words. President Saakavili
announced Aug. 8 that “Most of South Ossetia’s territory is
liberated.” He did not claim that Georgia was acting in “self-defense”
until Aug. 11. By that time Russian troops had driven the Georgian
Army out of South Ossetia and were within 31 miles of Tbilisi. The war
lasted five days.
The general’s remarks, reports Der Spiegel, “indicate that Georgian
President Mikheil Saakashvili was not repelling ‘Russian aggression,’
as he continues to claim to this day, but was planning a war of
aggression.”
</q>
vello
It's simple, even for you, I hope. Imagine: Russia is bombing/
annihilating Grozny and other Chechen cities. At this point Russia is
acting to reestablish constitutional order. Then Wahhabite Saudis will
attack Russia with plan to turn Chechenia to Saudi puppet state. From
that point Russia is in self defence.
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
> http://counterpunch.org/hallinan04282009.html
> <q>
> But an investigation by the EU has uncovered “Order No. 2” dated Aug.
> 7, that says that Georgia was not defending itself but acting to
> “reestablish constitutional order” in South Ossetia.
>
"Investigation by EU uncovered"?!!! This was common knownledge from
the very first day:
/////////////////////////////////////////
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7546639.stm
Friday, 8 August 2008 06:33 UK
Heavy fighting in South Ossetia
Russian media reports said Georgia had launched a tank-led attack on
the separatist stronghold of Tskhinvali, and airstrikes on rebel
positions.
Georgia says it aims to finish "a criminal regime" and restore order.
At Russia's request, members of the UN Security Council are holding a
rare emergency session to discuss a response to the escalating
violence.
The BBC's Matthew Collin in Tbilisi says there has been a series of
huge explosions and rocket fire in and around Tskhinvali.
The head of Georgian peacekeepers in South Ossetia said the operation
was intended to "restore constitutional order" to the region.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia
At about midnight (Tbilisi/Moscow/Tskhinvali time, EST +8) of 8
August, 2008, [24], on the same day as the 2008 Olympic Games
officially commenced, Georgian armed forces moved forward to South
Ossetia to take control of Tskhinvali and "restore constitutional
order in the entire region".
/////////////////////////////////////////////////
http://www.opendemocracy.net/article/south-ossetia-the-avoidable-tragedy.
It is becoming increasingly more and more difficult to persuade the
public opinion into believing that the strategic planning of the South
Ossetian “Blitzkrieg” was not thoroughly supervised by the Bush
administration, bearing in mind that the number of US military
“foremen” in Georgia, supervising the operation, shamelessly branded
as “Clear Field”... All these lies about Russia violating Georgian
territory are absolute pretence.
///////////////////////////////////
http://www.colorado.edu/geography/class_homepages/geog_4712_f08/ToalSouthOssetia.pdf.
That the Georgian military operation was code named ‘Clear Field’
suggested genocidal intent; Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov
later commented that the name “clearly smells of genocide” (Lavrov,
2008c)
///////////////////////////////////////
http://newsdeskhelsinkifinland.net/news/770/_operation_empty_field_causes_developments_lessons/
Operation “Empty Field”: causes, developments, lessons
The official reaction from Moscow to Tbilisi’s scheme to launch a
major attack versus South Ossetia was quick and straightforward: from
the outset of the intrusion the Kremlin labeled it as an act of
“genocide, ethnic cleansing, and military crimes”, resulting into a
humanitarian catastrophe – nearly 34,000 refugees from South Ossetia
flooded neighbouring Russian republics within 36 hours after the
bombardment of Tskhinvali had started: North Ossetia, Krasnodarsky
Krai and Chechnya.
/////////////////////////////////////
Why do you think Georgians called this operation "Empty/clear field",
if not to "clear", cleanse South Ossetia of South Ossetian civilians
and populate hte emptied South Ossetia with Georgians?
>
> The EU is
> closely examining an Aug. 7 television interview in which Georgian
> Gen. Mamuka Kurashjvili used just those words. President Saakavili
> announced Aug. 8 that “Most of South Ossetia’s territory is
> liberated.” He did not claim that Georgia was acting in “self-defense”
> until Aug. 11. By that time Russian troops had driven the Georgian
> Army out of South Ossetia and were within 31 miles of Tbilisi. The war
> lasted five days.
> The general’s remarks, reports Der Spiegel, “indicate that Georgian
> President Mikheil Saakashvili was not repelling ‘Russian aggression,’
> as he continues to claim to this day, but was planning a war of
> aggression.”
> </q>
>
What else is new? That Germany attacked USSR on June 22 1941 and not
the other way?
vello
>
> That the Georgian military operation was code named ‘Clear Field’
> suggested genocidal intent; Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov
> later commented that the name “clearly smells of genocide” (Lavrov,
> 2008c)
>
> ///////////////////////////////////////
>
A lot of pointless spam far away from topics here. Surely Georgia
attacks Ossetian separatists or freedom fighters, surely Putin attacks
Chechen separatists or freedom fighters, surely Germany attacked USSR,
surely USSR attacked Finland and Poland, surely Nazi Germany annexes
Czechoslovalia. Surely Soviets made the same in Baltics. Etc, etc.
My point was about MRTP letting Georgia down the toilet for activities
Russia commited just hundred kilometers north just few years ago.
Using double standards is clear sign one is not out for common good
but just good for "own" side - so his arguments are worthless.
MTRP™
And the point is? Except that Estonians are (in)famous slow thinkers,
of course ...
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
I wasn't replying to you.
>
> letting Georgia down the toilet for activities
> Russia commited just hundred kilometers north just few years ago.
> Using double standards is clear sign one is not out for common good
> but just good for "own" side - so his arguments are worthless.
>
I can't understand what you are saying here.
My main point was that the fact, that Saakashvili started the war, is
not new even to EU, because this was immediately reported by BBC back
on August 8, 2008. EU just pretended it didn't knew that the aggressor
was Saakashvili.
MTRP™
> ostap_bender_1 wrote:
> > MTRP™ wrote:
> > > http://counterpunch.org/hallinan04282009.html
> > > <q>
> > > But an investigation by the EU has uncovered “Order No. 2” dated Aug.
> > > 7, that says that Georgia was not defending itself but acting to
> > > “reestablish constitutional order” in South Ossetia.
> > "Investigation by EU uncovered"?!!! This was common knownledge from
> > the very first day:
> > http://www.opendemocracy.net/article/south-ossetia-the-avoidable-tragedy.
> > http://www.colorado.edu/geography/class_homepages/geog_4712_f08/ToalS....
> > That the Georgian military operation was code named ‘Clear Field’
> > > The EU is
> > > closely examining an Aug. 7 television interview in which Georgian
> > > Gen. Mamuka Kurashjvili used just those words. President Saakavili
> > > announced Aug. 8 that “Most of South Ossetia’s territory is
> > > liberated.” He did not claim that Georgia was acting in “self-defense”
> > > until Aug. 11. By that time Russian troops had driven the Georgian
> > > Army out of South Ossetia and were within 31 miles of Tbilisi. The war
> > > lasted five days.
> > > The general’s remarks, reports Der Spiegel, “indicate that Georgian
> > > President Mikheil Saakashvili was not repelling ‘Russian aggression,’
> > > as he continues to claim to this day, but was planning a war of
> > > aggression.”
> > > </q>
> > What else is new? That Germany attacked USSR on June 22 1941 and not
> > the other way?
> Russia commited just hundred kilometers north just few years ago.
Vello is confused. MTRP™ was merely quoting counterpunch.org quoting
Der Spiegel. But OB1 clearly has the point that in fact EU officials
in charge knew from the very beginning that Georgia launched the war,
but accused Russia, instead. Actually MTRP™ can't care less about
Georgia (or, say, Albania) and is mainly ineterested in mass media
propaganda.
dmitrijs...@inbox.lv
> attacks Ossetian separatists or freedom fighters, surely Putin attacks
> Chechen separatists or freedom fighters, surely Germany attacked USSR,
> surely USSR attacked Finland and Poland, surely Nazi Germany annexes
> Czechoslovalia. Surely Soviets made the same in Baltics. Etc, etc.
> My point was about MRTP letting Georgia down the toilet for activities
> Russia commited just hundred kilometers north just few years ago.
Following above mentioned footsteps doesn't deserve any appraisals.
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
See also
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7692751.stm
and BBC video on
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/7695956.stm
The BBC has discovered evidence that Georgia may have committed war
crimes in its attack on its breakaway region of South Ossetia in
August. Eyewitnesses have described how its tanks fired directly into
an apartment block, and how civilians were shot at as they tried to
escape the fighting. Human Rights Watch also points to indiscriminate
use of force by the Georgian military, and the possible deliberate
targeting of civilians.
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
> > A lot of pointless spam far away from topics here. Surely Georgia
> > attacks Ossetian separatists or freedom fighters, surely Putin attacks
> > Chechen separatists or freedom fighters, surely Germany attacked USSR,
> > surely USSR attacked Finland and Poland, surely Nazi Germany annexes
> > Czechoslovalia. Surely Soviets made the same in Baltics. Etc, etc.
> > My point was about MRTP letting Georgia down the toilet for activities
> > Russia commited just hundred kilometers north just few years ago.
>
> Following above mentioned footsteps doesn't deserve any appraisals.
>
That's exactly the right way of looking at it: Saakashvili is indeed
conciously following in the footsteps of Stalin:
"In an interview with a Dutch magazine, Sandra Roelofs, the Dutch wife
of the new Georgian president, explained that her husband aspires to
follow in the long tradition of strong Georgian leaders "like Stalin
and Beria". Saakashvili started his march on Tbilisi last November
with a rally in front of the statue of Stalin in his birthplace, Gori.
Unfazed, the western media continue to chatter about Saakashvili's
democratic credentials...Georgia is now effectively a one-party
state... New world order enthusiasts have praised the nightly displays
on Georgian television of people being arrested and bundled off to
prison in handcuffs. The politics of envy and fear combine in an echo
of 1930s Moscow... "
/ The Guardian, 2004 /
"Georgia has produced strong leaders. Stalin, Beria, Gamsakhurdia...
They looked beyond Georgia. My husband does the same; he fits in the
tradition. This country needs a strong hand. It is incredibly
important that respect for authority returns."
/Sandra Roelof/
"On Nov. 21, two correspondents ... traveled from Gori, the birthplace
of Iosif Stalin, to Tbilisi - accompanying a column of opposition
activists headed by Michael Saakashvili... After a rally before the
huge statue of Stalin, the marchers set out... A 40-liter cask of wine
helped them along".
/http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2003/3047georgia_soros.html/
"Russian Khrushchev's repudiation of Stalin set off a backlash in
Georgia. In 1956 hundreds of Georgians were killed when they
demonstrated against Khrushchev's policy of de-Stalinization.
/http://wrc.lingnet.org/georghis.htm/
vello
Georgian activities in Ossetia is using of double standards. Shaaka
did in Thinkvali exactly what Putin did in Grozny - fighting
separatism with any means available.
>
> My main point was that the fact, that Saakashvili started the war, is
> not new even to EU, because this was immediately reported by BBC back
> on August 8, 2008. EU just pretended it didn't knew that the aggressor
>
No. Shaaka acts before Russian army but after weeks of shelling
Georgian villages from south Ossetia. For Abkhazia, there was no
activity from Tbilisi at all, so it was just annexed by Russia. Most
probably it was just KGB-style operation: a) message to Ossetianside:
shell Georgians, they will reply and I will intervene on your side. 2)
some unofficial signal to Tbilisi: Russia is tired from Ossetian
problem, if you act fast, we will not react and let all the thing.
Even americans told Shaaka all the time: "DON't ATTACK". If shaaka
still went on Tsinkhvali, he most probably "knows" that there will be
no Russian response. and only Russia was able to produce such (well,
false) message. Shaaka falls in simple KGB trap.
vello
>
So appartment blocks in Grozny fell from horns of Josuah? What's the
difference between shaaka's activities in Thinkvali and Putin's ones
in Grozny by you? By me just in brutality - grozny was totally
levelled.
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
Many differences. For exmple, Putin was never hailed by the West as a
"pro-Western democrat" and was never invited to join NATO as a man who
shares EU's and NATO's so-called "democratic values".
MTRP™
> ostap_bender_1 wrote:
> > My main point was that the fact, that Saakashvili started the war, is
> > not new even to EU, because this was immediately reported by BBC back
> > on August 8, 2008. EU just pretended it didn't knew that the aggressor
> > was Saakashvili.
> probably it was just KGB-style operation: a) message to Ossetianside:
> shell Georgians, they will reply and I will intervene on your side. 2)
> some unofficial signal to Tbilisi: Russia is tired from Ossetian
> problem, if you act fast, we will not react and let all the thing.
> Even americans told Shaaka all the time: "DON't ATTACK".
LOL³. Even Cap knows that it was US classical CIA-style operation:
A) message to Russia: US is the boss wherever it smells oil.
B) message to US domestic electorate: Republicans rule.
Most probably Condi told Shaaka: attack now (according to US-planned
blitzkrieg scenario). So Shaaka issued his “Order No. 2” thus falling
into trap cuz he forgot that Putin was still in charge.
vello
>
But he give a shit about democratic values. Shaaka at least talks
about democracy . And there are some embryonal democracy in Georgia,
there is real opposition, there are real elections - nothing like this
in Russia. Putin's real face was again demonstrated with creation of
"anti-fascist commitee" dealing with support of nazis in former SU
area ...starting from 11941 :-) It's just like Germany starts fight
against cases of extremal brutality in the world history ...except
period 1933-1945.
MTRP™
> So appartment blocks in Grozny fell from horns of Josuah? What's the
> difference between shaaka's activities in Thinkvali and Putin's ones
> in Grozny by you? By me just in brutality - grozny was totally
> levelled.
Grozny was destroyed by Yeltsin's (US-blessed) 1st Chechen war.
Putin's reconquista was brutal (: Chechens and Russians are both mucho
brutal fellas), but it was real war against hardcore Islamists.
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
Which is brutally beaten up (like the opposition demonstrators),
pogrommed and shut up until after the elections (as was the only
independent TV station), tortured in prison (like Okruashvili), and
dies of mysterious deaths (like the Prime Minister Zhvania).
>
> Putin's real face was again demonstrated with creation of
> "anti-fascist commitee" dealing with support of nazis in former SU
> area ...starting from 11941 :-)
>
Wow. That's almost 10,000 years from now! :-)
Did you mean 1941?
>
> It's just like Germany starts fight
> against cases of extremal brutality in the world history ...except
> period 1933-1945.
>
I don't understand your point, logic or your comparison, nor do I
quite understand what this has to do with democracy in Russia or
Georgia; but if this "anti-fascist commitee" is a major reason why you
think Russia is undemocratic and is cruel to its dissidents - well,
things in Russia must be not too bad.
And if your arguments are aimed at proving that Georgia treats its
people exactly like NATO countries are supposed to and deserves to
join NATO - well, I am sure NATO will be convinced. As long as
Saakashvili doesn't form his own "anti-fascist commitee", he can
commit (pun intended) any crimes against humanity he wants and still
be judged fit to join NATO.
Forming a committee "dealing with support of **Nazis** in former SU"
in the 1940s may be totally pointless and demagogical, given that
almost all of these Nazi supporters are dead by now. However, it is
certainly less pointless and demagogical than the current mass
hysteria, created by Yuschenko, dealing with support of **Bolsheviks**
in the former SU during the Holodomor back in the early 1930s!
Prosecute and persecute everybody who was a Communist 75 year ago
(blaming only Jews and Russians, of course), but do not touch the Nazi
supporters from 65 year ago: they are sacred!
Anyway, I sure hope that even though Georgian crimes against humanity
are considered to be NATO-style, US citizens will never get to be
treated like Ossetians and even Georgians are treated by Saakashvili.
Now, with the Bush/Cheney/Gonzales gang out of office, my hopes look
quite promising.
dmitrijs...@inbox.lv
I think one of the key problems with ex-Soviet space conflicts is the
commitment to Stalin's internal administrative arrangements. Good for
Baltics as we had "SSR" status, but other administrative divisions had
no chance. If Chechnya, Abkhazia, SO etc. were in a position to
determine their own future there should be no need for bloody
conflicts.
> Most
> probably it was just KGB-style operation: a) message to Ossetianside:
> shell Georgians, they will reply and I will intervene on your side. 2)
> some unofficial signal to Tbilisi: Russia is tired from Ossetian
> problem, if you act fast, we will not react and let all the thing.
> Even americans told Shaaka all the time: "DON't ATTACK". If shaaka
> still went on Tsinkhvali, he most probably "knows" that there will be
> no Russian response. and only Russia was able to produce such (well,
> false) message. Shaaka falls in simple KGB trap.
Do you really think that any sane politician could believe that
Kremlin will not respond?
Maris
wrote:
Why would Putin be so againt Sakaashvili then if they both have the
same hero?
Maris
Maris
wrote:
You have a real love for selectively picking out events from the past
whilst pointedly ignoring the present.
>>
>> Putin's real face was again demonstrated with creation of
>> "anti-fascist commitee" dealing with support of nazis in former SU
>> area ...starting from 11941 :-)
>>
>
>Wow. That's almost 10,000 years from now! :-)
>
>Did you mean 1941?
>
>>
>> It's just like Germany starts fight
>> against cases of extremal brutality in the world history ...except
>> period 1933-1945.
>>
>
>I don't understand your point, logic or your comparison, nor do I
>quite understand what this has to do with democracy in Russia or
>Georgia; but if this "anti-fascist commitee" is a major reason why you
>think Russia is undemocratic and is cruel to its dissidents - well,
>things in Russia must be not too bad.
>
Something like the Ministry of Truth, Ministry of Peace, Ministry of
Love, Ministry of Plenty. Just a symptom of the return of
totalitarianism to Russia, not a reason.
>And if your arguments are aimed at proving that Georgia treats its
>people exactly like NATO countries are supposed to and deserves to
>join NATO - well, I am sure NATO will be convinced. As long as
>Saakashvili doesn't form his own "anti-fascist commitee", he can
>commit (pun intended) any crimes against humanity he wants and still
>be judged fit to join NATO.
>
>Forming a committee "dealing with support of **Nazis** in former SU"
>in the 1940s may be totally pointless and demagogical, given that
>almost all of these Nazi supporters are dead by now. However, it is
>certainly less pointless and demagogical than the current mass
>hysteria, created by Yuschenko, dealing with support of **Bolsheviks**
>in the former SU during the Holodomor back in the early 1930s!
>
>Prosecute and persecute everybody who was a Communist 75 year ago
>(blaming only Jews and Russians, of course), but do not touch the Nazi
>supporters from 65 year ago: they are sacred!
>
Who are these Nazi supporters that you keep droning on about? A
figment of your and Putin's imagination? Always a good policy to
externalise your own problems, I suppose.
>Anyway, I sure hope that even though Georgian crimes against humanity
>are considered to be NATO-style, US citizens will never get to be
>treated like Ossetians and even Georgians are treated by Saakashvili.
>Now, with the Bush/Cheney/Gonzales gang out of office, my hopes look
>quite promising.
Maris
MTRP™
Well ... reportedly Putin had/has no hero except Putin, who, in turn,
was one of Saaka's initial heroes (along with Stalin, that is). Hence
if "they both have the same hero" is true, then Mr. X is question must
be Putin - so sez logic. Maybe so. Maybe Saaka wanted to be a man like
Putin who saved his kingdom from disintegration, but he's not like
Putin, so he lost.
http://estrip.org/elmwood/journals/index.php?u=zobar&id=37320
And in the aftermath his hero even wanted to hang him by the balls -
this hurts!
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5147422.ece
MTRP™
> Something like the Ministry of Truth, Ministry of Peace, Ministry of
> Love, Ministry of Plenty. Just a symptom of the return of
> totalitarianism to Russia, not a reason.
Y Russia??? Gotta B kidding in your Orwellian UK?
http://tinyurl.com/dzurp6
MTRP™
> Gotta B kidding in your Orwellian UK?
right designation: UKGB
dmitrijs...@inbox.lv
> On Fri, 1 May 2009 17:10:14 -0700 (PDT), ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com
I've never seen any references (or claims by his relatives -)) that
Putin is fond of Stalin. I don't know who his favorite Russian/Soviet
leaders are, but I would imagine that Stalin is unlikely to be on that
list.
I worked in Georgia for 1 month in 1982. Not long enough to know a
great deal about it, but I can remember that Stalin was perceived as
Georgian national hero by everyone I met there (from farmers to chief
executive of Tbilisi margarine factory who ordered one of his
directors to take us to Gory so that we can see the town where comrade
Stalin was born and visit the museum of course). It was very
interesting to experience how they hold on to this cult, because I've
never seen anything like this before in any parts of USSR. It was
quite surreal.
Why Putin is so against Saakashvili is obvious, it is because
Saakashvili was against Putin. The game ended up in Saakashvili
becoming a useful idiot of Putin.
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
> On Sat, 2 May 2009 03:47:23 -0700 (PDT), ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com
>
> >On May 2, 2:30 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
> >> On May 2, 12:01 pm, ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >> > On May 2, 1:13 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>
> >> > > On May 2, 2:50 am, ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >> > > > On Apr 28, 1:13 pm, MTRP™ <Mir.Topol...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> >> > > > >http://counterpunch.org/hallinan04282009.html
> >> > > > > <q>
>
>
> >> > > >http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7692751.stm
>
> >> > > > and BBC video on
>
> >> > > >http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/7695956.stm
> >> > > > The BBC has discovered evidence that Georgia may have committed war
> >> > > > crimes in its attack on its breakaway region of South Ossetia in
> >> > > > August. Eyewitnesses have described how its tanks fired directly into
> >> > > > an apartment block, and how civilians were shot at as they tried to
> >> > > > escape the fighting. Human Rights Watch also points to indiscriminate
> >> > > > use of force by the Georgian military, and the possible deliberate
> >> > > > targeting of civilians.- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> > > So appartment blocks in Grozny fell from horns of Josuah? What's the
> >> > > difference between shaaka's activities in Thinkvali and Putin's ones
> >> > > in Grozny by you?
>
> >> > "pro-Western democrat" and was never invited to join NATO as a man who
> >> > shares EU's and NATO's so-called "democratic values".
>
> >> about democracy . And there are some embryonal democracy in Georgia,
> >> there is real opposition,
>
> >Which is brutally beaten up (like the opposition demonstrators),
> >pogrommed and shut up until after the elections (as was the only
> >independent TV station), tortured in prison (like Okruashvili), and
> >dies of mysterious deaths (like the Prime Minister Zhvania).
>
> You have a real love for selectively picking out events from the past
> whilst pointedly ignoring the present.
>
Zhvania's murder occurred under Saakashvili's rule several years ago.
All other crimes were committed by Saakashvili in the last year and a
half. Is this "ancient history" to you? Do you suffer from the
attention deficit syndrome?
How far into the past do you want to look? One week? One day?
What about all of you guys harping non-stop about Stalinist crimes
against the Baltics from 60 years ago? Events 60 years ago are less of
an "ancient history" than events 18 months ago?
Are you saying that if a ruler commits heinous crimes against
humanity, he should be forgiven 18 months later?
Then how come we have/had the Hague Tribunal, Nuremberg Trials,
Eichmann trial, etc.
Moreover, if Russia behaves nicely for 18 months, should it be
declared a "Western-style democracy", Putin - the greatest democrat,
and NATO should invite Russia to join?
>
> >> Putin's real face was again demonstrated with creation of
> >> "anti-fascist commitee" dealing with support of nazis in former SU
> >> area ...starting from 11941 :-)
>
> >Wow. That's almost 10,000 years from now! :-)
>
> >Did you mean 1941?
>
> >> It's just like Germany starts fight
> >> against cases of extremal brutality in the world history ...except
> >> period 1933-1945.
>
> >I don't understand your point, logic or your comparison, nor do I
> >quite understand what this has to do with democracy in Russia or
> >Georgia; but if this "anti-fascist commitee" is a major reason why you
> >think Russia is undemocratic and is cruel to its dissidents - well,
> >things in Russia must be not too bad.
>
> Something like the Ministry of Truth, Ministry of Peace, Ministry of
> Love, Ministry of Plenty. Just a symptom of the return of
> totalitarianism to Russia, not a reason.
>
These ministries exist only in books, not in Russia. Which new Russian
ministry do you find to be leading to “totalitarianism” and why?
>
> >And if your arguments are aimed at proving that Georgia treats its
> >people exactly like NATO countries are supposed to and deserves to
> >join NATO - well, I am sure NATO will be convinced. As long as
> >Saakashvili doesn't form his own "anti-fascist commitee", he can
> >commit (pun intended) any crimes against humanity he wants and still
> >be judged fit to join NATO.
>
> >Forming a committee "dealing with support of **Nazis** in former SU"
> >in the 1940s may be totally pointless and demagogical, given that
> >almost all of these Nazi supporters are dead by now. However, it is
> >certainly less pointless and demagogical than the current mass
> >hysteria, created by Yuschenko, dealing with support of **Bolsheviks**
> >in the former SU during the Holodomor back in the early 1930s!
>
> >Prosecute and persecute everybody who was a Communist 75 year ago
> >(blaming only Jews and Russians, of course), but do not touch the Nazi
> >supporters from 65 year ago: they are sacred!
>
> Who are these Nazi supporters that you keep droning on about?
>
I have no idea. I “drone” on it no more than you do. I just went
along with Vello’s claims:
>
> >> Putin's real face was again demonstrated with creation of
> >> "anti-fascist commitee" dealing with support of nazis in former SU
> >> area ...starting from 11941 :-)
>
>
> A
> figment of your and Putin's imagination?
>
Again, ask Vello. The only Anti-Fascist Committee that has ever
operated in Russia (that I know of) was:
//////////////////////////////////////////
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Anti-Fascist_Committee
Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee
The Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee (JAC, Russian: Еврейский
антифашистский комитет Yevreysky Antifashistsky Komitet, ЕАК) was
formed in Kuibyshev in April 1942 with the official support of the
Soviet authorities. It was designed to influence international public
opinion and organize political and material support for the Soviet
fight against Nazi Germany, particularly from the West.
In November 1948, Soviet authorities launched anti-Jewish Doctors'
plot campaign. The members of the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee were
arrested. They were charged with disloyalty, bourgeois nationalism,
cosmopolitanism, and planning to set up a Jewish republic in Crimea to
serve US interests. In January 1949, the Soviet mass media launched
massive propaganda campaign against "rootless cosmopolitans",
unmistakably aimed at Jews. On August 12, 1952, at least thirteen
prominent Yiddish writers were executed in the event known as the
"Night of the Murdered Poets" ("Ночь казненных поэтов").
////////////////////////////////////
I very much doubt if Putin has organised any new “Anti-Fascist
Committee” in Russia. Whom in Russia would it fight? Skinheads?
>
> Always a good policy to
> externalise your own problems, I suppose.
>
That’s what politicians in Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia do, by
blaming Russia for their own incompetence.
And so do you, by sharing with us your fantasy that the 8 journalists
murdered in Georgia must have been killed by FSB.
J. Anderson
<dmitrijs...@inbox.lv> wrote in message
news:18292e21-f373-4e64...@g20g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
> I worked in Georgia for 1 month in 1982. Not long enough to know a
> great deal about it, but I can remember that Stalin was perceived as
> Georgian national hero by everyone I met there (from farmers to chief
> executive of Tbilisi margarine factory who ordered one of his
> directors to take us to Gory so that we can see the town where comrade
> Stalin was born and visit the museum of course).
I suspect that deep down in their brown hearts many Austrians have the same
feelings for little Adi from Braunau an der Inn. And I've visited little
Benito's tomb in Predappio and seen how affectionately his memory is
cherished. Not to mention the rotting remnants of Ilyich...
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
> On Fri, 1 May 2009 17:10:14 -0700 (PDT), ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com
Would you please quote Putin or his wife or any of his confidants
saying that Stalin is Putin's hero? Thank you in advance.
Tadas Blinda
Would you please quote them criticising Stalin or questioning his
behaviour in even the slightest aspect?
MTRP™
> ostap_bender_1 wrote:
> > Maris wrote:
> > > Why would Putin be so againt Sakaashvili then if they both have the
> > > same hero?
> > Would you please quote Putin or his wife or any of his confidants
> > saying that Stalin is Putin's hero? Thank you in advance.
> Would you please quote them criticising Stalin or questioning his
> behaviour in even the slightest aspect?
lol(ing)@kangaroo_logic. Is this guy your hero, Chico?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lala50/3468997506/
For why don't you criticise him or question his behaviour?
vello
Edison is not my hero. But I use phone, electricity and other things.
Putin is trying to rebuilt Russia like it was in Stalin time:
patriotism instead of analytic thinking, glorifying anything what
smells militarily, "enemies" around Russia to not let people think
about situation inside Russia, imperial politics towards neighbours.
Maris
wrote:
My comments referred to the rehabilitation, under Putin, of Stalin in
children's history books.
>I worked in Georgia for 1 month in 1982. Not long enough to know a
>great deal about it, but I can remember that Stalin was perceived as
>Georgian national hero by everyone I met there (from farmers to chief
>executive of Tbilisi margarine factory who ordered one of his
>directors to take us to Gory so that we can see the town where comrade
>Stalin was born and visit the museum of course). It was very
>interesting to experience how they hold on to this cult, because I've
>never seen anything like this before in any parts of USSR. It was
>quite surreal.
>
The Georgians are difficult to comprehend in this case.
>Why Putin is so against Saakashvili is obvious, it is because
>Saakashvili was against Putin. The game ended up in Saakashvili
>becoming a useful idiot of Putin.
I think the term 'useful' idiot' is completely out of place here.
Maris
MTRP™
> dmitrijsfedot...@inbox.lv wrote:
> > Why Putin is so against Saakashvili is obvious, it is because
> > Saakashvili was against Putin. The game ended up in Saakashvili
> > becoming a useful idiot of Putin.
> I think the term 'useful' idiot' is completely out of place here.
Ditto. Saaka = useless idiot.
Maris
wrote:
We're harping on about them because the present incumbent gives the
impression of following in their footsteps.
I was using these terms to suggest that in the USSR and now in Russia,
by giving something a name it is attempted to try and giive a false
impression of what that body actually represents. Other examples could
be 'German Democratic Republic' (which was patently undemocratic), all
the so-called peace committees, which were simply KGB fronts to
recruit naifs to join the great cause and maybe betray their
countries.
>The Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee (JAC, Russian: ?????????
>?????????????? ??????? Yevreysky Antifashistsky Komitet, ???) was
>formed in Kuibyshev in April 1942 with the official support of the
>Soviet authorities. It was designed to influence international public
>opinion and organize political and material support for the Soviet
>fight against Nazi Germany, particularly from the West.
>
>In November 1948, Soviet authorities launched anti-Jewish Doctors'
>plot campaign. The members of the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee were
>arrested. They were charged with disloyalty, bourgeois nationalism,
>cosmopolitanism, and planning to set up a Jewish republic in Crimea to
>serve US interests. In January 1949, the Soviet mass media launched
>massive propaganda campaign against "rootless cosmopolitans",
>unmistakably aimed at Jews. On August 12, 1952, at least thirteen
>prominent Yiddish writers were executed in the event known as the
>"Night of the Murdered Poets" ("???? ????????? ??????").
>
>////////////////////////////////////
>
>I very much doubt if Putin has organised any new �Anti-Fascist
>Committee� in Russia. Whom in Russia would it fight? Skinheads?
>
>>
>> Always a good policy to
>> externalise your own problems, I suppose.
>>
>
>That�s what politicians in Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia do, by
>blaming Russia for their own incompetence.
Give me just one example of the Balts blaming Russia for their
economic situation.
>
>And so do you, by sharing with us your fantasy that the 8 journalists
>murdered in Georgia must have been killed by FSB.
>
I certainly don't believe they were murdered by the state and your
statistics don't give any details.
>>
>> >Anyway, I sure hope that even though Georgian crimes against humanity
>> >are considered to be NATO-style, US citizens will never get to be
>> >treated like Ossetians and even Georgians are treated by Saakashvili.
>> >Now, with the Bush/Cheney/Gonzales gang out of office, my hopes look
>> >quite promising.
>>
Maris
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
> On Sun, 3 May 2009 20:46:53 -0700 (PDT), ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com
> >On May 3, 5:40 am, Maris <lat...@london.com> wrote:
> >> On Sat, 2 May 2009 03:47:23 -0700 (PDT), ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com
>
> >> >> > "pro-Western democrat" and was never invited to join NATO as a man who
> >> >> > shares EU's and NATO's so-called "democratic values".
>
> >> >> But he give a shit about democratic values. Shaaka at least talks
> >> >> about democracy . And there are some embryonal democracy in Georgia,
> >> >> there is real opposition,
>
> >> >Which is brutally beaten up (like the opposition demonstrators),
> >> >pogrommed and shut up until after the elections (as was the only
> >> >independent TV station), tortured in prison (like Okruashvili), and
> >> >dies of mysterious deaths (like the Prime Minister Zhvania).
>
> >> You have a real love for selectively picking out events from the past
> >> whilst pointedly ignoring the present.
>
> >Zhvania's murder occurred under Saakashvili's rule several years ago.
> >All other crimes were committed by Saakashvili in the last year and a
> >half. Is this "ancient history" to you? Do you suffer from the
> >attention deficit syndrome?
>
> >How far into the past do you want to look? One week? One day?
>
> >What about all of you guys harping non-stop about Stalinist crimes
> >against the Baltics from 60 years ago? Events 60 years ago are less of
> >an "ancient history" than events 18 months ago?
>
> We're harping on about them because the present incumbent gives the
> impression of following in their footsteps.
>
And we, critics of Saakashvili, are harping on about him because he
has already proven to be a monster. And it is not just MSRP’s and my
opinion. The Georgian opposition feels this way too. And your
insistence that we can’t remind people about Saakashvili’s crimes
committed in the last 18 months, is ridiculous.
>
> >> Something like the Ministry of Truth, Ministry of Peace, Ministry of
> >> Love, Ministry of Plenty. Just a symptom of the return of
> >> totalitarianism to Russia, not a reason.
>
> >These ministries exist only in books, not in Russia. Which new Russian
> >ministry do you find to be leading to “totalitarianism” and why?
>
> I was using these terms to suggest that in the USSR and now in Russia,
> by giving something a name it is attempted to try and giive a false
> impression of what that body actually represents.
>
Please give me examples of such misnamed “bodies”. Not in the USSR but
in Russia, i.e., since 1992.
You must be confusing modern Russia with modern USA, where “French
fries” are renamed into “freedom fries” by the Congress, and “wars”
into “Contingency Operations“
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Contingency_Operation
In March 2009 the Defense Department officially changed the name of
operations from "Global War on Terror" to "Overseas Contingency
Operation" (OCO).
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=Njk5NTRjOTRhN2I1MjVhMDM3ZjU5YmUzMmRiNDc2NGM=
Contingency! What’s It Good For?
The Obama administration purges the language of war.
Behind the scenes, the Pentagon has received orders from on high that
war is out. The word “war,” that is. “This administration prefers to
avoid using the term ‘Long War’ or ‘Global War on Terror,’” according
to the guidelines. Our warriors were curtly told, “Please use
‘Overseas Contingency Operation.’”
That this “overseas contingency” on which we are “operating” has left
a rather large hole in the ground in lower Manhattan apparently is
beside the point. Or maybe that’s exactly the point. “War” is a
powerful word, redolent of power, force, zeal, and national purpose.
As are real enemies. Thus, the complementary announcement that “enemy
combatants” aren’t enemy combatants anymore. They are simply
“individuals currently detained at Guantanamo Bay,” according to
Attorney General Eric Holder.
>
> Other examples could
> be 'German Democratic Republic' (which was patently undemocratic), all
> the so-called peace committees, which were simply KGB fronts to
> recruit naifs to join the great cause and maybe betray their
> countries.
>
That was in the old USSR, not in modern Russia 1992-2009. Didn’t you
say that even 18 months ago is too far in the “past”?
Face it, Maris: you no zilch about modern Russia, and all you
knowledge and opinions are based on your assumption that there have
been no major positive changes in Russia since 1985.
>
> >> Always a good policy to
> >> externalise your own problems, I suppose.
>
> >That’s what politicians in Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia do, by
> >blaming Russia for their own incompetence.
>
> Give me just one example of the Balts blaming Russia for their
> economic situation.
>
Where did I say “economic”? However, let me expound and re-phrase:
“Most politicians in Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia constantly invent
new and new accusations and conflicts with Russia and Russians, in
order to re-direct public attention from domestic problems (often
caused by these very same politicians) and to win electorate votes
among numerous Russia-haters.”
>
> >And so do you, by sharing with us your fantasy that the 8 journalists
> >murdered in Georgia must have been killed by FSB.
>
> I certainly don't believe they were murdered by the state and your
> statistics don't give any details.
>
That’s not the issue here. Let’s go to replay:
On Apr 26, 5:21 am, Maris <lat...@london.com> wrote:
> ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >On Apr 24, 4:05 am, Maris <lat...@london.com> wrote:
>
> >> So how many journalists have been murdered in Georgia?
>
> > http://www.cpj.org/deadly/
> > Georgia: 8
> > Russia: 50
>
> >almost 5 times more journalist murders per capita in Georgia than in
> >Russia in the last 17 years.
>
> FSB on overseas missions again?
>
You blamed the murders of those 8 journalists in Georgia on FSB.
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
> On May 4, 12:03 pm, ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > On Fri, 1 May 2009 17:10:14 -0700 (PDT), ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com
>
> > > >of the new Georgian president, explained that her husband aspires to
> > > >follow in the long tradition of strong Georgian leaders "likeStalin
> > > >and Beria". Saakashvili started his march on Tbilisi last November
> > > >Unfazed, the western media continue to chatter about Saakashvili's
> > > >democratic credentials...Georgia is now effectively a one-party
> > > >state... New world order enthusiasts have praised the nightly displays
> > > >on Georgian television of people being arrested and bundled off to
> > > >prison in handcuffs. The politics of envy and fear combine in an echo
> > > >of 1930s Moscow... " / The Guardian, 2004 /
>
> > > >They looked beyond Georgia. My husband does the same; he fits in the
> > > >tradition. This country needs a strong hand. It is incredibly
> > > >important that respect for authority returns." /Sandra Roelof/
>
> > > same hero?
>
> > Would you please quote Putin or his wife or any of his confidants
> > saying that Stalin is Putin's hero? Thank you in advance.
>
> behaviour in even the slightest aspect?
>
Easily:
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL3072723020071030.
Putin honors Stalin victims 70 years after terror
October 39, 2007
BUTOVO, Russia (Reuters) - Russian President Vladimir Putin paid his
respects on Tuesday to millions of people killed under Soviet dictator
Joseph Stalin and called for the country to unite to prevent a repeat
of its tragic past.
Putin marked Russia's annual day of remembrance for the victims of
Stalin's purges with a visit to Butovo, a military training ground
near Moscow where tens of thousands of people were executed by firing
squads.
"We know very well that 1937 was the peak of the purges but this year
was well prepared by years of cruelty," Putin said beside a mass grave
after laying flowers at a memorial. Putin said such tragedies "happen
when ostensibly attractive but empty ideas are put above fundamental
values, values of human life, of rights and freedom."
"Hundreds of thousands, millions of people were killed and sent to
camps, shot and tortured," he said. "These were people with their own
ideas which they were unafraid of speaking out about. They were the
cream of the nation."
"There was even a complete theatrical troupe from the Baltics
massacred here," Deacon Dmitry, a priest at the site, said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/7069530.stm
In pictures: Putin laments Stalin purges
http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2007-10/2007-10-30-voa52.cfm?moddate=2007-10-30
Putin Commemorates Victims of Soviet Repression
Voice Of America
Russian President Vladimir Putin has commemorated more than 20,000
people executed at a Moscow killing field during the height of
Stalinist terror in 1937 to 1938. Mr. Putin said those who perished
included the Soviet Union's most outspoken and effective people. Under
gray skies, President Putin laid flowers at a cross erected in memory
of more than 20,000 people shot at the Butovo firing range on Moscow's
southern edge. Mr. Putin said Russians should do their best to
remember the tragedy, which occurred in 1937 and 1938. The Russian
leader says millions of people were destroyed, shot, sent to labor
camps, and tortured.
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-71650326.html
Putin Signs Repression Payback Bill
Associated Press, February 2003
Russian President Vladimir Putin has signed a bill providing
additional government pensions and other privileges to children of
victims of Soviet-era political repression.
The new law gives people whose parents were subjected to political
repression while they were minors the same rights as other repression
victims, the presidential press service said Monday in a statement.
Tadas Blinda
> Face it, Maris: you no zilch about modern Russia, and all you
> knowledge and opinions are based on your assumption that there have
> been no major positive changes in Russia since 1985.
Really? So go ahead and list some of the "major positive changes in
Russia since 1985". Such as bringing back the Communist anthem?
Invading Georgia? Supporting the criminal rougue state of Trans-
Dniestria? Murdering journalists? Jailing capitalists who wouldn't
play ball with the Kremlin? Abolishing elections for regional
governors and replacing them with presidential appointments? Closing
down newspapers and TV channels the Kremlin doesn't like?
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
Sorry, but if you think that nothing has changed in Russia since the
Chernenko times of 1985, I don't think you are on top of things. For
example, it may surprise you but Baltic states are independent now,
whereas in 1985.... But evidently, nothing has changed in Lithuania
since 1985, so you haven't noticed the changes.
BTW, which newspapers were closed down by Kremlin?
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
Nor mine. I hear most of "his" inventions were made by his employees,
whose discoveries he attributed to himself without even mentioning the
names of the real inventors. Afaik, he wasn't kind to Tesla either.
Maris
wrote:
What has the independence of the Baltic States got to do with Russia?
Is Russia heir to the USSR? Oops, sorry, forgot, yes it is heir to the
USSR in every respect.,
>BTW, which newspapers were closed down by Kremlin?
The newspaper which was fed the lie by the FSB (your people) about
Putin having a girlfriend, which was then used to suoppress it. Can't
remember it's name.
Maris
Maris
wrote:
He is infinitely less of a monster than Putimn and his activities in
Chechnya. I'm surptised that no space has been given here to the
recent Sunday Times report and interviews with Russian war criminals
serving in Chechnya by long-term East Europe reporter Mark Franchetti.
Anyway, here it is now so you can feast on it:-
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/apr2009/mjm427-5.htm
You are repeating yourself again, as is your habit (as probably taught
to you by your FSB masters), to repeat a lie often enough in the
belief that people will eventually believe it.
>>
>> >> Something like the Ministry of Truth, Ministry of Peace, Ministry of
>> >> Love, Ministry of Plenty. Just a symptom of the return of
>> >> totalitarianism to Russia, not a reason.
>>
>> >These ministries exist only in books, not in Russia. Which new Russian
>> >ministry do you find to be leading to �totalitarianism� and why?
>>
>> I was using these terms to suggest that in the USSR and now in Russia,
>> by giving something a name it is attempted to try and giive a false
>> impression of what that body actually represents.
>>
>
>Please give me examples of such misnamed �bodies�. Not in the USSR but
>in Russia, i.e., since 1992.
The so -called anti-fascist whatever it is. The first place to look
for fascists is Russia by a long way.
What positive changes have there been?
>>
>> >> Always a good policy to
>> >> externalise your own problems, I suppose.
>>
>> >That�s what politicians in Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia do, by
>> >blaming Russia for their own incompetence.
>>
>> Give me just one example of the Balts blaming Russia for their
>> economic situation.
>>
>
>Where did I say �economic�? However, let me expound and re-phrase:
>�Most politicians in Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia constantly invent
>new and new accusations and conflicts with Russia and Russians, in
>order to re-direct public attention from domestic problems (often
>caused by these very same politicians) and to win electorate votes
>among numerous Russia-haters.�
Name just one instance.
>
>>
>> >And so do you, by sharing with us your fantasy that the 8 journalists
>> >murdered in Georgia must have been killed by FSB.
>>
>> I certainly don't believe they were murdered by the state and your
>> statistics don't give any details.
>>
>
>That�s not the issue here. Let�s go to replay:
>
>On Apr 26, 5:21 am, Maris <lat...@london.com> wrote:
>> ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> >On Apr 24, 4:05 am, Maris <lat...@london.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> So how many journalists have been murdered in Georgia?
>>
>> > http://www.cpj.org/deadly/
>> > Georgia: 8
>> > Russia: 50
>>
>> >almost 5 times more journalist murders per capita in Georgia than in
>> >Russia in the last 17 years.
>>
>> FSB on overseas missions again?
>>
>
>You blamed the murders of those 8 journalists in Georgia on FSB.
>
And I would always suspect the FSB before the Georgians. However, in
this case, I would imagine that that it was more likely to be gang
activity.
Maris
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
> On Tue, 5 May 2009 00:57:19 -0700 (PDT), ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com
>
> >Sorry, but if you think that nothing has changed in Russia since the
> >Chernenko times of 1985, I don't think you are on top of things. For
> >example, it may surprise you but Baltic states are independent now,
> >whereas in 1985.... But evidently, nothing has changed in Lithuania
> >since 1985, so you haven't noticed the changes.
>
> What has the independence of the Baltic States got to do with Russia?
>
According to Baltic patriots, in 1985 Baltic States were under
"Russian" occupation. Today, they aren't. Ask Peteris. He will tell
you that they are in EU now. If you don't notice the difference -
something must be wrong with the life in the Batlic states today. On
the other hand, you living in UK wouldn't be able to tell Andrius
Kubilius from Andrus Ansip even if your life depended on it.
Here is what happened in a famous forest called Belovezhskaya Puscha:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Yeltsin
On 6 November 1991, Yeltsin issued a decree banning the Communist
Party throughout the RSFSR. In early December 1991, Ukraine voted for
independence from the Soviet Union. A week later, on 8 December,
Yeltsin met with Ukrainian president Leonid Kravchuk and the leader of
Belarus Stanislav Shushkevich in Belovezhskaya Pushcha, where the
three presidents announced the dissolution of the Soviet Union...
vello
I hope you are able to realize my post was not about Edison?
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
> On Mon, 4 May 2009 14:57:58 -0700 (PDT), ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com
> wrote:
> >On May 4, 7:20 am, Maris <lat...@london.com> wrote:
>
> as probably taught to you by your FSB masters
>
You are a little, defective, unscrupled and filthy scumbag, sir. And I
mean it with all sincerity. You are less civilised than a
Neanderthal.
If you had been a Joe McCarthey's Committee on Unamerican Activities,
hundreds of thousands of Americans would have died in an electric
chair, on your claim that they are "KGB agents".
>
> >> >> Something like the Ministry of Truth, Ministry of Peace, Ministry of
> >> >> Love, Ministry of Plenty. Just a symptom of the return of
> >> >> totalitarianism to Russia, not a reason.
>
> >> >These ministries exist only in books, not in Russia. Which new Russian
> >> >ministry do you find to be leading to “totalitarianism” and why?
>
> >> I was using these terms to suggest that in the USSR and now in Russia,
> >> by giving something a name it is attempted to try and giive a false
> >> impression of what that body actually represents.
>
> >Please give me examples of such misnamed “bodies”. Not in the USSR but
> >in Russia, i.e., since 1992.
>
> The so -called anti-fascist whatever it is.
>
What today's Russian "anti-fascist whatever it is" Ministry/body are
you referring to? Where can I read about it? Is "whatever it is" part
of its title?
Vladimir Makarenko
>> opinion. The Georgian opposition feels this way too. And your
>> committed in the last 18 months, is ridiculous.
>>
> He is infinitely less of a monster than Putimn and his activities in
> Chechnya. I'm surptised that no space has been given here to the
> recent Sunday Times report and interviews with Russian war criminals
> serving in Chechnya by long-term East Europe reporter Mark Franchetti.
> Anyway, here it is now so you can feast on it:-
> http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/apr2009/mjm427-5.htm
>
> You are repeating yourself again, as is your habit (as probably taught
> to you by your FSB masters), to repeat a lie often enough in the
> belief that people will eventually believe it.
Hardly FSB masters can surpass Rupert Murdock's tabloid in anything like
the crap above. That is like Britney Spears dressed by Goebbels.
Have you read a serious of interviews with British cannibal commandos in
Iraq?
Well, check the reality:
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/B401641.htm
VM.
>
>
>>>>> Something like the Ministry of Truth, Ministry of Peace, Ministry of
>>>>> Love, Ministry of Plenty. Just a symptom of the return of
>>>>> totalitarianism to Russia, not a reason.
>>>> These ministries exist only in books, not in Russia. Which new Russian
>>>> ministry do you find to be leading to �totalitarianism� and why?
>>> I was using these terms to suggest that in the USSR and now in Russia,
>>> by giving something a name it is attempted to try and giive a false
>>> impression of what that body actually represents.
>>>
>> Please give me examples of such misnamed �bodies�. Not in the USSR but
>> in Russia, i.e., since 1992.
>
> The so -called anti-fascist whatever it is. The first place to look
> for fascists is Russia by a long way.
>
>> You must be confusing modern Russia with modern USA, where �French
>> fries� are renamed into �freedom fries� by the Congress, and �wars�
>> into �Contingency Operations�
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Contingency_Operation
>> In March 2009 the Defense Department officially changed the name of
>> operations from "Global War on Terror" to "Overseas Contingency
>> Operation" (OCO).
>>
>> http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=Njk5NTRjOTRhN2I1MjVhMDM3ZjU5YmUzMmRiNDc2NGM=
>> Contingency! What�s It Good For?
>> The Obama administration purges the language of war.
>> Behind the scenes, the Pentagon has received orders from on high that
>> war is out. The word �war,� that is. �This administration prefers to
>> avoid using the term �Long War� or �Global War on Terror,�� according
>> to the guidelines. Our warriors were curtly told, �Please use
>> �Overseas Contingency Operation.��
>> That this �overseas contingency� on which we are �operating� has left
>> a rather large hole in the ground in lower Manhattan apparently is
>> beside the point. Or maybe that�s exactly the point. �War� is a
>> powerful word, redolent of power, force, zeal, and national purpose.
>> As are real enemies. Thus, the complementary announcement that �enemy
>> combatants� aren�t enemy combatants anymore. They are simply
>> �individuals currently detained at Guantanamo Bay,� according to
>> Attorney General Eric Holder.
>>> Other examples could
>>> be 'German Democratic Republic' (which was patently undemocratic), all
>>> the so-called peace committees, which were simply KGB fronts to
>>> recruit naifs to join the great cause and maybe betray their
>>> countries.
>>>
>> That was in the old USSR, not in modern Russia 1992-2009. Didn�t you
>> say that even 18 months ago is too far in the �past�?
>>
>> Face it, Maris: you no zilch about modern Russia, and all you
>> knowledge and opinions are based on your assumption that there have
>> been no major positive changes in Russia since 1985.
>>
> What positive changes have there been?
>
>>>>> Always a good policy to
>>>>> externalise your own problems, I suppose.
>>>> That�s what politicians in Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia do, by
>>>> blaming Russia for their own incompetence.
>>> Give me just one example of the Balts blaming Russia for their
>>> economic situation.
>>>
>> Where did I say �economic�? However, let me expound and re-phrase:
>> �Most politicians in Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia constantly invent
>> new and new accusations and conflicts with Russia and Russians, in
>> order to re-direct public attention from domestic problems (often
>> caused by these very same politicians) and to win electorate votes
>> among numerous Russia-haters.�
>
> Name just one instance.
>
>>>> And so do you, by sharing with us your fantasy that the 8 journalists
>>>> murdered in Georgia must have been killed by FSB.
>>> I certainly don't believe they were murdered by the state and your
>>> statistics don't give any details.
>>>
>> That�s not the issue here. Let�s go to replay:
vello
> >> opinion. The Georgian opposition feels this way too. And your
> >> committed in the last 18 months, is ridiculous.
>
> > He is infinitely less of a monster than Putimn and his activities in
> > Chechnya. I'm surptised that no space has been given here to the
> > recent Sunday Times report and interviews with Russian war criminals
> > serving in Chechnya by long-term East Europe reporter Mark Franchetti.
> > Anyway, here it is now so you can feast on it:-
> >http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/apr2009/mjm427-5.htm
>
> > You are repeating yourself again, as is your habit (as probably taught
> > to you by your FSB masters), to repeat a lie often enough in the
> > belief that people will eventually believe it.
>
> Hardly FSB masters can surpass Rupert Murdock's tabloid in anything like
> the crap above. That is like Britney Spears dressed by Goebbels.
>
> Have you read a serious of interviews with British cannibal commandos in
> Iraq?
>
> Well, check the reality:http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/B401641.htm
>
> VM.
What is reality? Few guys find quilt? Much more SS-men get death
penalty for being too cruel in KZ-camps. Will it change the fact that
regime was criminal?
Vladimir Makarenko
>>>> opinion. The Georgian opposition feels this way too. And your
>>>> committed in the last 18 months, is ridiculous.
>>> He is infinitely less of a monster than Putimn and his activities in
>>> Chechnya. I'm surptised that no space has been given here to the
>>> recent Sunday Times report and interviews with Russian war criminals
>>> serving in Chechnya by long-term East Europe reporter Mark Franchetti.
>>> Anyway, here it is now so you can feast on it:-
>>> http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/apr2009/mjm427-5.htm
>>> You are repeating yourself again, as is your habit (as probably taught
>>> to you by your FSB masters), to repeat a lie often enough in the
>>> belief that people will eventually believe it.
>> Hardly FSB masters can surpass Rupert Murdock's tabloid in anything like
>> the crap above. That is like Britney Spears dressed by Goebbels.
>>
>> Have you read a serious of interviews with British cannibal commandos in
>> Iraq?
>>
>> Well, check the reality:http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/B401641.htm
>>
>> VM.
>
> What is reality? Few guys find quilt?
That is the basic burden of the civil society - to maintain a Law, which
means to get whoever is possible for breaking the law.
Reality is that this tabloid story is crap. Typical for Murdock style.
What is the Baltics obsession with tabloids crap as ultimate source of
Russophobic agitprop? Because this way it's just waste of time.
Not long ago it was about "millions" of brainwashed youngsters
copulating in summer camps, now some B-movie Rambos.
> Much more SS-men get death
> penalty for being too cruel in KZ-camps. Will it change the fact that
> regime was criminal?
Wow, is that what is now Estonia's revised history of SS says? - That
SS-men were sentenced to death by Nazi regime for being cruel to prisoners?
Any references?
VM.
vello
> >>>> opinion. The Georgian opposition feels this way too. And your
Don't fall from certain level, Vladimir. That data is in any serious
book about nazi crimes - and on the wall in Auschwitz. Any regime have
their rules. Or if you prefer emotional, journalistic key - SS-soldier
guarding prisoners was not in position to judge over death of
prisoners still able to work for Reich - wrecking tools and machinery
was also punishable.
Maris
wrote:
>On May 5, 1:26�am, Maris <lat...@london.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 5 May 2009 00:57:19 -0700 (PDT), ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com
>>
>> >Sorry, but if you think that nothing has changed in Russia since the
>> >Chernenko times of 1985, I don't think you are on top of things. For
>> >example, it may surprise you but Baltic states are independent now,
>> >whereas in 1985.... But evidently, nothing has changed in Lithuania
>> >since 1985, so you haven't noticed the changes.
>>
>> What has the independence of the Baltic States got to do with Russia?
>>
>
>According to Baltic patriots, in 1985 Baltic States were under
>"Russian" occupation. Today, they aren't. Ask Peteris. He will tell
>you that they are in EU now. If you don't notice the difference -
>something must be wrong with the life in the Batlic states today. On
>the other hand, you living in UK wouldn't be able to tell Andrius
>Kubilius from Andrus Ansip even if your life depended on it.
>
I think you;ll find 'according to the world' rather as well as Baltic
patriots. Are you on something? Your answer has no relevamce for my
question.
>Here is what happened in a famous forest called Belovezhskaya Puscha:
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Yeltsin
>On 6 November 1991, Yeltsin issued a decree banning the Communist
>Party throughout the RSFSR. In early December 1991, Ukraine voted for
>independence from the Soviet Union. A week later, on 8 December,
>Yeltsin met with Ukrainian president Leonid Kravchuk and the leader of
>Belarus Stanislav Shushkevich in Belovezhskaya Pushcha, where the
>three presidents announced the dissolution of the Soviet Union...
Again, what relevance has this to anything? The USSR was a 'Union'.
Are you now telling me that some members were more equal than others?
Maris
Maris
wrote:
>On May 5, 1:40 am, Maris <lat...@london.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 4 May 2009 14:57:58 -0700 (PDT), ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com
>> wrote:
>> >On May 4, 7:20 am, Maris <lat...@london.com> wrote:
>>
>> as probably taught to you by your FSB masters
>>
>
>You are a little, defective, unscrupled and filthy scumbag, sir. And I
>mean it with all sincerity. You are less civilised than a
>Neanderthal.
>
>If you had been a Joe McCarthey's Committee on Unamerican Activities,
>hundreds of thousands of Americans would have died in an electric
>chair, on your claim that they are "KGB agents".
>
The only piece of shit around here is you. Actually, you are lower
than the shit on the ground. Can't remember who coined that one.
Maris
Maris
>>> has already proven to be a monster. And it is not just MSRP�s and my
>>> opinion. The Georgian opposition feels this way too. And your
>>> insistence that we can�t remind people about Saakashvili�s crimes
>>> committed in the last 18 months, is ridiculous.
>>>
>> He is infinitely less of a monster than Putimn and his activities in
>> Chechnya. I'm surptised that no space has been given here to the
>> recent Sunday Times report and interviews with Russian war criminals
>> serving in Chechnya by long-term East Europe reporter Mark Franchetti.
>> Anyway, here it is now so you can feast on it:-
>> http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/apr2009/mjm427-5.htm
>>
>> You are repeating yourself again, as is your habit (as probably taught
>> to you by your FSB masters), to repeat a lie often enough in the
>> belief that people will eventually believe it.
>
>Hardly FSB masters can surpass Rupert Murdock's tabloid in anything like
>the crap above. That is like Britney Spears dressed by Goebbels.
>
>Have you read a serious of interviews with British cannibal commandos in
>Iraq?
>
>Well, check the reality:
>http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/B401641.htm
>
>VM.
>
You just gave me the link to 'Russian court jails four for Chechnya
killings'. What are you trying to say?
Maris
>
>>
>>
>>>>>> Something like the Ministry of Truth, Ministry of Peace, Ministry of
>>>>>> Love, Ministry of Plenty. Just a symptom of the return of
>>>>>> totalitarianism to Russia, not a reason.
>>>>> These ministries exist only in books, not in Russia. Which new Russian
>>>>> ministry do you find to be leading to �totalitarianism� and why?
>>>> I was using these terms to suggest that in the USSR and now in Russia,
>>>> by giving something a name it is attempted to try and giive a false
>>>> impression of what that body actually represents.
>>>>
>>> Please give me examples of such misnamed �bodies�. Not in the USSR but
>>> in Russia, i.e., since 1992.
>>
>> The so -called anti-fascist whatever it is. The first place to look
>> for fascists is Russia by a long way.
>>
>>> You must be confusing modern Russia with modern USA, where �French
>>> fries� are renamed into �freedom fries� by the Congress, and �wars�
>>> into �Contingency Operations�
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Contingency_Operation
>>> In March 2009 the Defense Department officially changed the name of
>>> operations from "Global War on Terror" to "Overseas Contingency
>>> Operation" (OCO).
>>>
>>> http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=Njk5NTRjOTRhN2I1MjVhMDM3ZjU5YmUzMmRiNDc2NGM=
>>> Contingency! What�s It Good For?
>>> The Obama administration purges the language of war.
>>> Behind the scenes, the Pentagon has received orders from on high that
>>> war is out. The word �war,� that is. �This administration prefers to
>>> avoid using the term �Long War� or �Global War on Terror,�� according
>>> to the guidelines. Our warriors were curtly told, �Please use
>>> �Overseas Contingency Operation.��
>>> That this �overseas contingency� on which we are �operating� has left
>>> a rather large hole in the ground in lower Manhattan apparently is
>>> beside the point. Or maybe that�s exactly the point. �War� is a
>>> powerful word, redolent of power, force, zeal, and national purpose.
>>> As are real enemies. Thus, the complementary announcement that �enemy
>>> combatants� aren�t enemy combatants anymore. They are simply
>>> �individuals currently detained at Guantanamo Bay,� according to
>>> Attorney General Eric Holder.
>>>> Other examples could
>>>> be 'German Democratic Republic' (which was patently undemocratic), all
>>>> the so-called peace committees, which were simply KGB fronts to
>>>> recruit naifs to join the great cause and maybe betray their
>>>> countries.
>>>>
>>> That was in the old USSR, not in modern Russia 1992-2009. Didn�t you
>>> say that even 18 months ago is too far in the �past�?
>>>
>>> Face it, Maris: you no zilch about modern Russia, and all you
>>> knowledge and opinions are based on your assumption that there have
>>> been no major positive changes in Russia since 1985.
>>>
>> What positive changes have there been?
>>
>>>>>> Always a good policy to
>>>>>> externalise your own problems, I suppose.
>>>>> That�s what politicians in Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia do, by
>>>>> blaming Russia for their own incompetence.
>>>> Give me just one example of the Balts blaming Russia for their
>>>> economic situation.
>>>>
>>> Where did I say �economic�? However, let me expound and re-phrase:
>>> �Most politicians in Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia constantly invent
>>> new and new accusations and conflicts with Russia and Russians, in
>>> order to re-direct public attention from domestic problems (often
>>> caused by these very same politicians) and to win electorate votes
>>> among numerous Russia-haters.�
>>
>> Name just one instance.
>>
>>>>> And so do you, by sharing with us your fantasy that the 8 journalists
>>>>> murdered in Georgia must have been killed by FSB.
>>>> I certainly don't believe they were murdered by the state and your
>>>> statistics don't give any details.
>>>>
>>> That�s not the issue here. Let�s go to replay:
dmitrijs...@inbox.lv
> <dmitrijsfedot...@inbox.lv> wrote in message
The mummy of Ilyich is also a tourist attraction. I've spoken to
somebody last week who visited Moscow 2 years ago and they queued for
several hours to see the thing (not that they had any feelings for the
guy -))).
dmitrijs...@inbox.lv
> >> same hero?
> >> Maris
>
> >I've never seen any references (or claims by his relatives -)) that
> >Putin is fond of Stalin. I don't know who his favorite Russian/Soviet
> >leaders are, but I would imagine that Stalin is unlikely to be on that
> >list.
>
> My comments referred to the rehabilitation, under Putin, of Stalin in
> children's history books.
I see. I think this is a result of reinforsement of nationalism. To
maintain the line one can't exclude Stalin.
In my opinion, in today's world one should be honest about their
history. One can't win by ways of brainwashing.... nobody
rehabilitating Adolf Hitler in Germany today, for example. Here in
UK, with all dark colonial past, we don't teach children myths.
Russia doesn't seem to be at that stage where admitting the dark parts
of history is OK. And of course lack of bright periods of country's
history doesn't help either.
>
> >I worked in Georgia for 1 month in 1982. Not long enough to know a
> >great deal about it, but I can remember that Stalin was perceived as
> >Georgian national hero by everyone I met there (from farmers to chief
> >executive of Tbilisi margarine factory who ordered one of his
> >directors to take us to Gory so that we can see the town where comrade
> >Stalin was born and visit the museum of course). It was very
> >interesting to experience how they hold on to this cult, because I've
> >never seen anything like this before in any parts of USSR. It was
> >quite surreal.
>
> The Georgians are difficult to comprehend in this case.
It was difficult to comprehend as well as many other things I've
experienced there. Although being in Russian/Soviet space for
centuries, Baltic and Caucasian cultures are very far apart.
>
> >Why Putin is so against Saakashvili is obvious, it is because
> >Saakashvili was against Putin. The game ended up in Saakashvili
> >becoming a useful idiot of Putin.
>
> I think the term 'useful' idiot' is completely out of place here.
I think he was quite useful to Putin and so far I do consider
Saakashvili as an idiot -))
> Maris
Vladimir Makarenko
>>>> opinion. The Georgian opposition feels this way too. And your
>>>> committed in the last 18 months, is ridiculous.
>>>>
>>> He is infinitely less of a monster than Putimn and his activities in
>>> Chechnya. I'm surptised that no space has been given here to the
>>> recent Sunday Times report and interviews with Russian war criminals
>>> serving in Chechnya by long-term East Europe reporter Mark Franchetti.
>>> Anyway, here it is now so you can feast on it:-
>>> http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/apr2009/mjm427-5.htm
>>>
>>> You are repeating yourself again, as is your habit (as probably taught
>>> to you by your FSB masters), to repeat a lie often enough in the
>>> belief that people will eventually believe it.
>> Hardly FSB masters can surpass Rupert Murdock's tabloid in anything like
>> the crap above. That is like Britney Spears dressed by Goebbels.
>>
>> Have you read a serious of interviews with British cannibal commandos in
>> Iraq?
>>
>> Well, check the reality:
>> http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/B401641.htm
>>
>> VM.
>>
> You just gave me the link to 'Russian court jails four for Chechnya
> killings'. What are you trying to say?
> Maris
This is the real story about real Rambos - elite of elite - GRU speznaz
group. And what happened to them after they went on cover up killing of
Chechen civilians.
VM.
>
>>>
>>>>>>> Something like the Ministry of Truth, Ministry of Peace, Ministry of
>>>>>>> Love, Ministry of Plenty. Just a symptom of the return of
>>>>>>> totalitarianism to Russia, not a reason.
>>>>>> These ministries exist only in books, not in Russia. Which new Russian
>>>>>> ministry do you find to be leading to �totalitarianism� and why?
>>>>> I was using these terms to suggest that in the USSR and now in Russia,
>>>>> by giving something a name it is attempted to try and giive a false
>>>>> impression of what that body actually represents.
>>>>>
>>>> Please give me examples of such misnamed �bodies�. Not in the USSR but
>>>> in Russia, i.e., since 1992.
>>> The so -called anti-fascist whatever it is. The first place to look
>>> for fascists is Russia by a long way.
>>>
>>>> You must be confusing modern Russia with modern USA, where �French
>>>> fries� are renamed into �freedom fries� by the Congress, and �wars�
>>>> into �Contingency Operations�
>>>>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Contingency_Operation
>>>> In March 2009 the Defense Department officially changed the name of
>>>> operations from "Global War on Terror" to "Overseas Contingency
>>>> Operation" (OCO).
>>>>
>>>> http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=Njk5NTRjOTRhN2I1MjVhMDM3ZjU5YmUzMmRiNDc2NGM=
>>>> Contingency! What�s It Good For?
>>>> The Obama administration purges the language of war.
>>>> Behind the scenes, the Pentagon has received orders from on high that
>>>> war is out. The word �war,� that is. �This administration prefers to
>>>> avoid using the term �Long War� or �Global War on Terror,�� according
>>>> to the guidelines. Our warriors were curtly told, �Please use
>>>> �Overseas Contingency Operation.��
>>>> That this �overseas contingency� on which we are �operating� has left
>>>> a rather large hole in the ground in lower Manhattan apparently is
>>>> beside the point. Or maybe that�s exactly the point. �War� is a
>>>> powerful word, redolent of power, force, zeal, and national purpose.
>>>> As are real enemies. Thus, the complementary announcement that �enemy
>>>> combatants� aren�t enemy combatants anymore. They are simply
>>>> �individuals currently detained at Guantanamo Bay,� according to
>>>> Attorney General Eric Holder.
>>>>> Other examples could
>>>>> be 'German Democratic Republic' (which was patently undemocratic), all
>>>>> the so-called peace committees, which were simply KGB fronts to
>>>>> recruit naifs to join the great cause and maybe betray their
>>>>> countries.
>>>>>
>>>> That was in the old USSR, not in modern Russia 1992-2009. Didn�t you
>>>> say that even 18 months ago is too far in the �past�?
>>>>
>>>> Face it, Maris: you no zilch about modern Russia, and all you
>>>> knowledge and opinions are based on your assumption that there have
>>>> been no major positive changes in Russia since 1985.
>>>>
>>> What positive changes have there been?
>>>
>>>>>>> Always a good policy to
>>>>>>> externalise your own problems, I suppose.
>>>>>> That�s what politicians in Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia do, by
>>>>>> blaming Russia for their own incompetence.
>>>>> Give me just one example of the Balts blaming Russia for their
>>>>> economic situation.
>>>>>
>>>> Where did I say �economic�? However, let me expound and re-phrase:
>>>> �Most politicians in Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia constantly invent
>>>> new and new accusations and conflicts with Russia and Russians, in
>>>> order to re-direct public attention from domestic problems (often
>>>> caused by these very same politicians) and to win electorate votes
>>>> among numerous Russia-haters.�
>>> Name just one instance.
>>>
>>>>>> And so do you, by sharing with us your fantasy that the 8 journalists
>>>>>> murdered in Georgia must have been killed by FSB.
>>>>> I certainly don't believe they were murdered by the state and your
>>>>> statistics don't give any details.
>>>>>
>>>> That�s not the issue here. Let�s go to replay:
vello
> Maris wrote:
> > On Tue, 05 May 2009 13:40:15 -0400, Vladimir Makarenko
> > <vmak...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Maris wrote:
> >>>> opinion. The Georgian opposition feels this way too. And your
> >>>> committed in the last 18 months, is ridiculous.
>
> >>> He is infinitely less of a monster than Putimn and his activities in
> >>> Chechnya. I'm surptised that no space has been given here to the
> >>> recent Sunday Times report and interviews with Russian war criminals
> >>> serving in Chechnya by long-term East Europe reporter Mark Franchetti.
> >>> Anyway, here it is now so you can feast on it:-
> >>>http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/apr2009/mjm427-5.htm
>
> >>> You are repeating yourself again, as is your habit (as probably taught
> >>> to you by your FSB masters), to repeat a lie often enough in the
> >>> belief that people will eventually believe it.
> >> Hardly FSB masters can surpass Rupert Murdock's tabloid in anything like
> >> the crap above. That is like Britney Spears dressed by Goebbels.
>
> >> Have you read a serious of interviews with British cannibal commandos in
> >> Iraq?
>
> >> Well, check the reality:
> >>http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/B401641.htm
>
> >> VM.
>
> > You just gave me the link to 'Russian court jails four for Chechnya
> > killings'. What are you trying to say?
> > Maris
>
> This is the real story about real Rambos - elite of elite - GRU speznaz
> group. And what happened to them after they went on cover up killing of
> Chechen civilians.
>
> VM.
went without "civilian casualities"? When by you master of those
activities will be arrested?
Vladimir Makarenko
>>>>>> opinion. The Georgian opposition feels this way too. And your
Obviously never because rules of engagement of XX cent war even civil
war were flexible. Btw I can't wait to hear what "other cities" are.
But all that is bringing up inevitably a question: how come you're being
so concern with fate of Grozny but never of incomparably worst fate of
Faluja? How come? After all you are up to your ears in it. Or profits of
buccaneering worth destruction and blood?
VM.
vello
> >>>>>> opinion. The Georgian opposition feels this way too. And your
I just want to understand you: why the same activities commited by
Russia are OK by you but if planned by Georgia are grave sin.
Other question is just silly. go and Google - or read Russian books
about Chechen war.
>
> But all that is bringing up inevitably a question: how come you're being
> so concern with fate of Grozny but never of incomparably worst fate of
> Faluja? How come?
Wiki: "During the Gulf War, Fallujah suffered one of the highest tolls
of civilian casualties. Two separate failed bombing attempts on
Fallujah's bridge across the Euphrates River hit crowded markets,
killing an estimated 200 civilians" - Is this what you have in mind?
Sad accident. How you compare this with levelling of all city?
After all you are up to your ears in it. Or profits of
> buccaneering worth destruction and blood?
>
It is popular topic, but who and by how will get the big money?
Hunting old tents and shadows in the desert with cruise missiles and
other hi-tech is not too profitable business. Or you think that loads
of ships and planes with robbed valuables are on the way from Iraq/
Afganistan to Washington DC?
Of course you can use what we learn in soviet schools: wars appear coz
weapon making companies need market for their production. Is that your
position?
Vladimir, you get your information from sole source - Russian media.
Unhappily media what was fantastic just ten years ago is gone and now
there are not journalists but servants working who know what they will
find even before they sttart to search. Two years ago Putin was using
against Estonia primitive but someway effective tactics: mass flow of
false data with no hope anyone in Estonia will believe it, no matter
russian or estonian. It was targeted to people around the world who
hardly had idea where and what Estonia is.
I think it is possible in "case Georgia", too. What not means that I
deny the posssibility that accusations against shaaka are correct. Or,
most probably, what we get ffrom media is mix from both components.
Vladimir Makarenko
>>>>>>>> opinion. The Georgian opposition feels this way too. And your
Heh, sticking fast to party line? Good, now try this:
http://www.countercurrents.org/iraq-bt270305.htm
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10907.htm
>
> After all you are up to your ears in it. Or profits of
>> buccaneering worth destruction and blood?
>>
> It is popular topic, but who and by how will get the big money?
> Hunting old tents and shadows in the desert with cruise missiles and
> other hi-tech is not too profitable business. Or you think that loads
> of ships and planes with robbed valuables are on the way from Iraq/
> Afganistan to Washington DC?
> Of course you can use what we learn in soviet schools: wars appear coz
> weapon making companies need market for their production. Is that your
> position?
Heh, ask around, e.g. Alan Greenspan what kind of "old tents and shadows
in the desert". You'll get the idea what kind of "loads
of ships and planes with robbed valuables" those ships are carrying to
exchange for money in the world markets.
What happened Vello you went to play innocence, ignorance, sudden
dumbness and whatever else deliberate naivete is supposed to show? You
don't know why Iraqi sands are so precious that worth genocide?
Well, if you insist to be perceived as a naive then you be treated as such.
>
> Vladimir, you get your information from sole source - Russian media.
I think your Estonian TV is really damaging.
Do you have anything funnier to say?
But enjoy this comedy of the year: "Operation 'Valkyrie' - Georgian style":
http://www.lenta.ru/articles/2009/05/06/ge/
> Unhappily media what was fantastic just ten years ago is gone and now
> there are not journalists but servants working who know what they will
> find even before they sttart to search. Two years ago Putin was using
> against Estonia primitive but someway effective tactics: mass flow of
> false data with no hope anyone in Estonia will believe it, no matter
> russian or estonian. It was targeted to people around the world who
> hardly had idea where and what Estonia is.
Two years ago Estonia screwed up Big Time. And if you check before the
event happened I told you : do not do THAT. But you never listen and
besides Baltics got so used to wear a "victim" dress of impunity that
couldn't expect the situation would flip. And outcome? - Lesson
Unlearned: Blame enemy Outside instead of scratching head.
I know, I know - all Russian media around the world must be banned as it
is in Estonia.
And replaced with Ansip's TV.
> I think it is possible in "case Georgia", too. What not means that I
> deny the posssibility that accusations against shaaka are correct.
> Or,
> most probably, what we get ffrom media is mix from both components.
>
To deny possibility of anything would be rather arrogant. As to hoodlum
Sharikov - natural evolution of events will take care. Btw, have you
heard another spy there just arrested and confessed? As I said every
second Georgian is a Russian spy what makes me wonder what rules of
democracy say in such a case?
But as I suspected his love to spend money on weapons wasn't so platonic:
http://lenta.ru/news/2009/03/04/zurab/
The only hope left is that the leaders of opposition in Georgia are
right and switching to parliamentary system will bring the country to
senses, somehow "little napoleon" model just doesn't work there:
http://www.lenta.ru/conf/nogaideli/
VM.
vello
> >>>>>>>> opinion. The Georgian opposition feels this way too. And your
Is wikipedia a party line media by you?? Witch party is involved?
About two others, one is opinion of one brave lady who's son get
killed in war. Other is more interesting (Chomsky would not write for
bullshit company) but as stories about CIA gunning down both Kennedys
stay just next to Iraq story - let's say, thry like different
wiewpoints. I just can't see why I must take those sites more
seriously then data from more serious (and not US "controlled") media.
Media what I trust comes from nordic countries - small and civilized
world having no motivation to "modify" information in any direction.
Expecially with clearing house there is problem that they adverse
himself as source of news "one can't get from CNN". Hardly we can take
them as objective source, coz their slogan forces them to lie in
imaginable situation when CNN talks truth :-)
About Fallujah himself, I have not enough data to make my position.
From three sources here Wikipedia is most concrete: what really
happens, how many casualities. Those data may be correct or wrong, but
I can't subscribe "news" about US running a genocide in Fallujah - 95%
of victims in Iraq are victims of shiia-sunni-kurdi fights, so main
criminal here is UK with their former colonial greed to make a
"country" from territory habitated by different groups having by far
not friendly relations.
>
>
>
> > After all you are up to your ears in it. Or profits of
> >> buccaneering worth destruction and blood?
>
> > It is popular topic, but who and by how will get the big money?
> > Hunting old tents and shadows in the desert with cruise missiles and
> > other hi-tech is not too profitable business. Or you think that loads
> > of ships and planes with robbed valuables are on the way from Iraq/
> > Afganistan to Washington DC?
> > Of course you can use what we learn in soviet schools: wars appear coz
> > weapon making companies need market for their production. Is that your
> > position?
>
> Heh, ask around, e.g. Alan Greenspan what kind of "old tents and shadows
> in the desert". You'll get the idea what kind of "loads
> of ships and planes with robbed valuables" those ships are carrying to
> exchange for money in the world markets.
Well I asked it from you. Do you know how one can turn Iraq war into
profitable business (sure it is profitable for companies supplying
army. But hardly their profits were reason to send troops to Iraq -
and those profits come from taxpayers pocket not from Iraq. So US as
nation is in pure red.
>
> What happened Vello you went to play innocence, ignorance, sudden
> dumbness and whatever else deliberate naivete is supposed to show? You
> don't know why Iraqi sands are so precious that worth genocide?
> Well, if you insist to be perceived as a naive then you be treated as such.
No. There is oil under sand. But again, how US profits from the war,
exactly? Do you think US plans to annex Iraqui oilfields? If Iraq will
become democratic, US will pay for their oil market price - like
anyone else.
>
>
>
> > Vladimir, you get your information from sole source - Russian media.
>
> I think your Estonian TV is really damaging.
>
> Do you have anything funnier to say?
I just was a prophet: any single source you bring in this message are
just from that sole truth factory.
>
> But enjoy this comedy of the year: "Operation 'Valkyrie' - Georgian style":
>
> http://www.lenta.ru/articles/2009/05/06/ge/
>
> > Unhappily media what was fantastic just ten years ago is gone and now
> > there are not journalists but servants working who know what they will
> > find even before they sttart to search. Two years ago Putin was using
> > against Estonia primitive but someway effective tactics: mass flow of
> > false data with no hope anyone in Estonia will believe it, no matter
> > russian or estonian. It was targeted to people around the world who
> > hardly had idea where and what Estonia is.
>
> Two years ago Estonia screwed up Big Time. And if you check before the
> event happened I told you : do not do THAT. But you never listen and
> besides Baltics got so used to wear a "victim" dress of impunity that
> couldn't expect the situation would flip. And outcome? - Lesson
> Unlearned: Blame enemy Outside instead of scratching head.
Oh. Taking down or putting up some monument in Washington, Tallinn,
Moscow etc etc is nor Big Time screwing or Big Time achievement - it's
just normal thing what happens everywhere on the globe every day. I
would call funny ideas from some mongolian that monument to Golden
horde army must stand in Moscow - it's something not mongols but
muscovites must decide. Same for Washington, Tallinn, Ulanbaatar... If
someone wants to make himself laughable thinking that he knows better
what kind of monuments must stand on other countries, it's one's own
free choice.
> I know, I know - all Russian media around the world must be banned as it
> is in Estonia.
> And replaced with Ansip's TV.
a) Russian TV is available everywhere in Estonia via cable or
satellite, in Narva even from air.
b) Ansip is not very popular in our media circles - critics about govt
in time of crisis is simple way to find readers. Ansip was voted
"enemy of press" two years ago.
3) In Estonia govt is so weak against media that idea about "Ansip's
TV" is laughable for anyone being in estonia more then two hours.
>
> > I think it is possible in "case Georgia", too. What not means that I
> > deny the posssibility that accusations against shaaka are correct.
> > Or,
> > most probably, what we get ffrom media is mix from both components.
>
> To deny possibility of anything would be rather arrogant. As to hoodlum
> Sharikov - natural evolution of events will take care. Btw, have you
> heard another spy there just arrested and confessed? As I said every
> second Georgian is a Russian spy what makes me wonder what rules of
> democracy say in such a case?
Well Putin finds even Estonian spy two years ago :-) For Estonia I
know we have no branch of intelligence working abroad (but diplomats
do collect data what they find). I think spies from countries like US
or Russia are much more reality then estonian or Luxemburgian ones.
> But as I suspected his love to spend money on weapons wasn't so platonic:
>
> http://lenta.ru/news/2009/03/04/zurab/
>
> The only hope left is that the leaders of opposition in Georgia are
> right and switching to parliamentary system will bring the country to
> senses, somehow "little napoleon" model just doesn't work there:
>
> http://www.lenta.ru/conf/nogaideli/
>
Despite brief success in Germany and Russia "little napoleons" are for
sure not good thing for any country. If most georgians will not want
to continue with Shaaka, lets hope they make power lift via elections,
not wia street riots and guns. It's not easy, for Russia it is yet
thing to come.
Again I try to get answer from you, what makes Putin better then
Shaaka for you? In practice they are very similar, well, Putin's words
are more close to his real ideas. You position is built solely on fact
that you are eethnic russian? Or you eally think Putin is in some way
better?
Vladimir Makarenko
>>>>>>>>>> opinion. The Georgian opposition feels this way too. And your
Well, according to results of the US Congress investigation there was a
conspiracy to kill JFK. Who organized it - still open question. So maybe
such a story make you to raise brows because you are far away and
somehow got complacent with Warren Commission report but the fact is
that its results were rejected by this later investigation which was
based on much more solid evidence base.
> stay just next to Iraq story - let's say, thry like different
> wiewpoints. I just can't see why I must take those sites more
> seriously then data from more serious (and not US "controlled") media.
Wikipedia is infamously unreliable when it comes to hot topics, because
of its open source method. If Pentagon was paying money to journalists
to publish crap in Iraqi papers, then why not free of pay Wiki?
> Media what I trust comes from nordic countries - small and civilized
> world having no motivation to "modify" information in any direction.
> Expecially with clearing house there is problem that they adverse
> himself as source of news "one can't get from CNN". Hardly we can take
> them as objective source, coz their slogan forces them to lie in
> imaginable situation when CNN talks truth :-)
CNN Europe and CNN USA are different animals as are BBC vs BBC America.
Both are whores but CNN US is especially disgusting because of 8 years
of Bush ass licking. That's nobody trust them anymore. Or other whores
of official media like NYT.
>
> About Fallujah himself, I have not enough data to make my position.
> From three sources here Wikipedia is most concrete: what really
> happens, how many casualities. Those data may be correct or wrong, but
> I can't subscribe "news" about US running a genocide in Fallujah - 95%
> of victims in Iraq are victims of shiia-sunni-kurdi fights, so main
> criminal here is UK with their former colonial greed to make a
> "country" from territory habitated by different groups having by far
> not friendly relations.
One who started the fire is responsible for death of those got burned in
the house. Provoking genocide is an ultimate war crime.
The very old data from 2006 puts number of victims of Blood for Oil
between 600,000 and 1,200,000.
This is "Lancet"'s and John Hopkins Uni results, Pentagon plainly
refuses to count THESE bodies.
>>
>>
>>> After all you are up to your ears in it. Or profits of
>>>> buccaneering worth destruction and blood?
>>> It is popular topic, but who and by how will get the big money?
>>> Hunting old tents and shadows in the desert with cruise missiles and
>>> other hi-tech is not too profitable business. Or you think that loads
>>> of ships and planes with robbed valuables are on the way from Iraq/
>>> Afganistan to Washington DC?
>>> Of course you can use what we learn in soviet schools: wars appear coz
>>> weapon making companies need market for their production. Is that your
>>> position?
>> Heh, ask around, e.g. Alan Greenspan what kind of "old tents and shadows
>> in the desert". You'll get the idea what kind of "loads
>> of ships and planes with robbed valuables" those ships are carrying to
>> exchange for money in the world markets.
>
> Well I asked it from you. Do you know how one can turn Iraq war into
> profitable business (sure it is profitable for companies supplying
> army. But hardly their profits were reason to send troops to Iraq -
> and those profits come from taxpayers pocket not from Iraq. So US as
> nation is in pure red.
Hah, you are like Russians - you also perceive USA like a monolith
homogeneous entity, which is not. Reason to send troops to Iraq was a
coincidence of interests of platonic murderers - neocons, buccaneers
from corporate world especially oil and dumb politicians.
>> What happened Vello you went to play innocence, ignorance, sudden
>> dumbness and whatever else deliberate naivete is supposed to show? You
>> don't know why Iraqi sands are so precious that worth genocide?
>> Well, if you insist to be perceived as a naive then you be treated as such.
>
> No. There is oil under sand. But again, how US profits from the war,
> exactly? Do you think US plans to annex Iraqui oilfields? If Iraq will
> become democratic, US will pay for their oil market price - like
> anyone else.
Get yourself Greenspan's memoirs, he explains it in lay terms. He was in
the time at the very top he knows how it was put together.
Or dig on the net - it's an old story now, everything became public domain.
USA will pay the market price, which means - me and those around, not
Exxon or Shell. Exxon's 2006 profit was a record in the world history of
corporate profits.
>>
>>
>>> Vladimir, you get your information from sole source - Russian media.
>> I think your Estonian TV is really damaging.
>>
>> Do you have anything funnier to say?
>
> I just was a prophet: any single source you bring in this message are
> just from that sole truth factory.
Truth hurts. Especially when it is so bold.
Aspirin?
>> But enjoy this comedy of the year: "Operation 'Valkyrie' - Georgian style":
>>
>> http://www.lenta.ru/articles/2009/05/06/ge/
>>
>>> Unhappily media what was fantastic just ten years ago is gone and now
>>> there are not journalists but servants working who know what they will
>>> find even before they sttart to search. Two years ago Putin was using
>>> against Estonia primitive but someway effective tactics: mass flow of
>>> false data with no hope anyone in Estonia will believe it, no matter
>>> russian or estonian. It was targeted to people around the world who
>>> hardly had idea where and what Estonia is.
>> Two years ago Estonia screwed up Big Time. And if you check before the
>> event happened I told you : do not do THAT. But you never listen and
>> besides Baltics got so used to wear a "victim" dress of impunity that
>> couldn't expect the situation would flip. And outcome? - Lesson
>> Unlearned: Blame enemy Outside instead of scratching head.
>
> Oh. Taking down or putting up some monument in Washington, Tallinn,
> Moscow etc etc is nor Big Time screwing or Big Time achievement - it's
> just normal thing what happens everywhere on the globe every day. I
> would call funny ideas from some mongolian that monument to Golden
> horde army must stand in Moscow - it's something not mongols but
> muscovites must decide. Same for Washington, Tallinn, Ulanbaatar... If
> someone wants to make himself laughable thinking that he knows better
> what kind of monuments must stand on other countries, it's one's own
> free choice.
>
If you spit in catholic faces in Ulster - well you in return will face
the consequences.
>> I know, I know - all Russian media around the world must be banned as it
>> is in Estonia.
>> And replaced with Ansip's TV.
>
> a) Russian TV is available everywhere in Estonia via cable or
> satellite, in Narva even from air.
In other, lay man terms it is banned. How that Animal Freedom House
rates Estonia ?
> b) Ansip is not very popular in our media circles - critics about govt
> in time of crisis is simple way to find readers. Ansip was voted
> "enemy of press" two years ago.
> 3) In Estonia govt is so weak against media that idea about "Ansip's
> TV" is laughable for anyone being in estonia more then two hours.
>>> I think it is possible in "case Georgia", too. What not means that I
>>> deny the posssibility that accusations against shaaka are correct.
>>> Or,
>>> most probably, what we get ffrom media is mix from both components.
>> To deny possibility of anything would be rather arrogant. As to hoodlum
>> Sharikov - natural evolution of events will take care. Btw, have you
>> heard another spy there just arrested and confessed? As I said every
>> second Georgian is a Russian spy what makes me wonder what rules of
>> democracy say in such a case?
>
> Well Putin finds even Estonian spy two years ago :-) For Estonia I
> know we have no branch of intelligence working abroad (but diplomats
> do collect data what they find).
It was a Russian military IIRC working for Estonia. Dips are not
prevented from recruiting money hungry foreigners?
> I think spies from countries like US
> or Russia are much more reality then estonian or Luxemburgian ones.
Luxembourg is not NATO member, - but you decided to play big boys game,
do not complain on rough contacts.
>
>> But as I suspected his love to spend money on weapons wasn't so platonic:
>>
>> http://lenta.ru/news/2009/03/04/zurab/
>>
>> The only hope left is that the leaders of opposition in Georgia are
>> right and switching to parliamentary system will bring the country to
>> senses, somehow "little napoleon" model just doesn't work there:
>>
>> http://www.lenta.ru/conf/nogaideli/
>>
> Despite brief success in Germany and Russia "little napoleons"
"little napoleons" never succeeded in Russia. I would have not called
Hitler anything "little" either.
> are for
> sure not good thing for any country. If most georgians will not want
> to continue with Shaaka, lets hope they make power lift via elections,
> not wia street riots and guns. It's not easy, for Russia it is yet
> thing to come.
>
> Again I try to get answer from you, what makes Putin better then
> Shaaka for you? In practice they are very similar, well, Putin's words
> are more close to his real ideas. You position is built solely on fact
> that you are eethnic russian? Or you eally think Putin is in some way
> better?
>
The answer is simple - compare Russia when Putin came in and at the
beginning of the last year when he left. Look through innumerable
articles in the *Western* media.
You indeed must be grateful to Putin too - as it were going one day
nukes might not have been safe. "Time" for a good reason has chosen him
a man of the year. He is universally recognized as a man who stopped
colonial robbery of Russia (and thus upset the West). Basically he
prevented death of the country. Is it why Baltics don't like him so
much? You should relax, if not him somebody else would do it. Maybe not
in such sleek and smart way.
If you want to compare this clown Sharikov - do not go far - Ansip is a
perfect blueprint.
VM.
vello
> vello wrote:
>
> > Is wikipedia a party line media by you?? Witch party is involved?
> > About two others, one is opinion of one brave lady who's son get
> > killed in war. Other is more interesting (Chomsky would not write for
> > bullshit company) but as stories about CIA gunning down both Kennedys
>
> Well, according to results of the US Congress investigation there was a
> conspiracy to kill JFK. Who organized it - still open question. So maybe
> such a story make you to raise brows because you are far away and
> somehow got complacent with Warren Commission report but the fact is
> that its results were rejected by this later investigation which was
> based on much more solid evidence base.
I just remember one private ivestigator (sorry, his name is out of
memory for now - Garrison or something?) who makes himself famous/rich
with serving possibilities as real facts. But I'm not too deeply in US
affairs.
>
> > stay just next to Iraq story - let's say, thry like different
> > wiewpoints. I just can't see why I must take those sites more
> > seriously then data from more serious (and not US "controlled") media.
>
> Wikipedia is infamously unreliable when it comes to hot topics, because
> of its open source method. If Pentagon was paying money to journalists
> to publish crap in Iraqi papers, then why not free of pay Wiki?
>
> > Media what I trust comes from nordic countries - small and civilized
> > world having no motivation to "modify" information in any direction.
> > Expecially with clearing house there is problem that they adverse
> > himself as source of news "one can't get from CNN". Hardly we can take
> > them as objective source, coz their slogan forces them to lie in
> > imaginable situation when CNN talks truth :-)
>
> CNN Europe and CNN USA are different animals as are BBC vs BBC America.
> Both are whores but CNN US is especially disgusting because of 8 years
> of Bush ass licking. That's nobody trust them anymore. Or other whores
> of official media like NYT.
I don't talk about CNN Europe - I talk about news created in Northern
Europe - often very critical to GWB adventures.
>
>
>
> > About Fallujah himself, I have not enough data to make my position.
> > From three sources here Wikipedia is most concrete: what really
> > happens, how many casualities. Those data may be correct or wrong, but
> > I can't subscribe "news" about US running a genocide in Fallujah - 95%
> > of victims in Iraq are victims of shiia-sunni-kurdi fights, so main
> > criminal here is UK with their former colonial greed to make a
> > "country" from territory habitated by different groups having by far
> > not friendly relations.
>
> One who started the fire is responsible for death of those got burned in
> the house. Provoking genocide is an ultimate war crime.
> The very old data from 2006 puts number of victims of Blood for Oil
> between 600,000 and 1,200,000.
> This is "Lancet"'s and John Hopkins Uni results, Pentagon plainly
> refuses to count THESE bodies.
How those victims are tied with oil? Hardly sunnites, shiias or kurdis
have oil on their flags - such things start to be important after
freedom fight is winned.
>
>
>
> >>> After all you are up to your ears in it. Or profits of
> >>>> buccaneering worth destruction and blood?
> >>> It is popular topic, but who and by how will get the big money?
> >>> Hunting old tents and shadows in the desert with cruise missiles and
> >>> other hi-tech is not too profitable business. Or you think that loads
> >>> of ships and planes with robbed valuables are on the way from Iraq/
> >>> Afganistan to Washington DC?
> >>> Of course you can use what we learn in soviet schools: wars appear coz
> >>> weapon making companies need market for their production. Is that your
> >>> position?
> >> Heh, ask around, e.g. Alan Greenspan what kind of "old tents and shadows
> >> in the desert". You'll get the idea what kind of "loads
> >> of ships and planes with robbed valuables" those ships are carrying to
> >> exchange for money in the world markets.
>
> > Well I asked it from you. Do you know how one can turn Iraq war into
> > profitable business (sure it is profitable for companies supplying
> > army. But hardly their profits were reason to send troops to Iraq -
> > and those profits come from taxpayers pocket not from Iraq. So US as
> > nation is in pure red.
>
> Hah, you are like Russians - you also perceive USA like a monolith
> homogeneous entity, which is not.
Well, at about 50 times I made attempts here that there is no "West"
with media controlled from some single command post.
Reason to send troops to Iraq was a
> coincidence of interests of platonic murderers - neocons, buccaneers
> from corporate world especially oil and dumb politicians.
>
> >> What happened Vello you went to play innocence, ignorance, sudden
> >> dumbness and whatever else deliberate naivete is supposed to show? You
> >> don't know why Iraqi sands are so precious that worth genocide?
> >> Well, if you insist to be perceived as a naive then you be treated as such.
>
> > No. There is oil under sand. But again, how US profits from the war,
> > exactly? Do you think US plans to annex Iraqui oilfields? If Iraq will
> > become democratic, US will pay for their oil market price - like
> > anyone else.
>
> Get yourself Greenspan's memoirs, he explains it in lay terms. He was in
> the time at the very top he knows how it was put together.
> Or dig on the net - it's an old story now, everything became public domain.
> USA will pay the market price, which means - me and those around, not
> Exxon or Shell. Exxon's 2006 profit was a record in the world history of
> corporate profits.
Please be punctual: how their success is tied to Iraq? do they have
agreement with US Army that they can pump oil for free in Iraq? For
very low price? Third time I ask here from you how that war turns into
greenbucks and third time you are not able to give some answer.
>
>
>
> >>> Vladimir, you get your information from sole source - Russian media.
> >> I think your Estonian TV is really damaging.
>
> >> Do you have anything funnier to say?
>
> > I just was a prophet: any single source you bring in this message are
> > just from that sole truth factory.
>
> Truth hurts. Especially when it is so bold.
> Aspirin?
I'm from SU, so i'm quite immune for Truth Factories production :-)
When I split in catholic faces in Ulster it means I identify himself
with occupants from UK and surely I deserve what I will get from Irish
people. But why you put it here - there is no any similarity. Your
example would fit if estonians went to Moscow with their bronzeman in
Estonian uniform with him and wanting to mount it on Red Square. We
are of no interesr what monuments russians want to plant on their
squares and surely we wait for the same attitude from Russia. That
wiewpoint is 100% supported by international laws: my square - my man
on horse, your square - your guy.
>
> >> I know, I know - all Russian media around the world must be banned as it
> >> is in Estonia.
> >> And replaced with Ansip's TV.
>
> > a) Russian TV is available everywhere in Estonia via cable or
> > satellite, in Narva even from air.
>
> In other, lay man terms it is banned. How that Animal Freedom House
> rates Estonia ?
What is "lay man term"? If I open my TV-set they are here like
estonian channels, CNN, Discovery etc etc. What you mean?
>
> > b) Ansip is not very popular in our media circles - critics about govt
> > in time of crisis is simple way to find readers. Ansip was voted
> > "enemy of press" two years ago.
> > 3) In Estonia govt is so weak against media that idea about "Ansip's
> > TV" is laughable for anyone being in estonia more then two hours.
> >>> I think it is possible in "case Georgia", too. What not means that I
> >>> deny the posssibility that accusations against shaaka are correct.
> >>> Or,
> >>> most probably, what we get ffrom media is mix from both components.
> >> To deny possibility of anything would be rather arrogant. As to hoodlum
> >> Sharikov - natural evolution of events will take care. Btw, have you
> >> heard another spy there just arrested and confessed? As I said every
> >> second Georgian is a Russian spy what makes me wonder what rules of
> >> democracy say in such a case?
>
> > Well Putin finds even Estonian spy two years ago :-) For Estonia I
> > know we have no branch of intelligence working abroad (but diplomats
> > do collect data what they find).
>
> It was a Russian military IIRC working for Estonia. Dips are not
> prevented from recruiting money hungry foreigners?
Maybe there are more then one Estonian spy working in Russia, case
what I had in mind was about forestry businessman arrested near some
military area in Pskov oblast. What you say is more possible then real
spy with button camera and poison in shirt collar, but also only
theoretically. Imagine, you are praporchcik of Pskov Air Dessant
Division and you want to sell to "West" where your parachutes are
stored in hope to make big bucks. Wich embassy you will try to
contact? Are you sure that not US, GB or Israel but Luxembourg,
Estonia and New Zealand will be your first choice?
>
> > I think spies from countries like US
> > or Russia are much more reality then estonian or Luxemburgian ones.
>
> Luxembourg is not NATO member, - but you decided to play big boys game,
> do not complain on rough contacts.
I don't complain I just laugh :-) btw Luxemboug is in terrible
situation if to believe Russian sources - they are fully surrounded by
NATO and they don't have even nukes. I think they live in everyday
fear of invasion.
>
>
>
> >> But as I suspected his love to spend money on weapons wasn't so platonic:
>
> >>http://lenta.ru/news/2009/03/04/zurab/
>
> >> The only hope left is that the leaders of opposition in Georgia are
> >> right and switching to parliamentary system will bring the country to
> >> senses, somehow "little napoleon" model just doesn't work there:
>
> >>http://www.lenta.ru/conf/nogaideli/
>
> > Despite brief success in Germany and Russia "little napoleons"
>
> "little napoleons" never succeeded in Russia. I would have not called
> Hitler anything "little" either.
You mess two important things here - size of a country and size of a
man. I don't think Pol Poth is weaker then Stalin or Hitler, he just
had not too much people to work on them. If to go deeply, Pol Poth
kills much higher %% from people available then two other gentlemen.
>
> > are for
> > sure not good thing for any country. If most georgians will not want
> > to continue with Shaaka, lets hope they make power lift via elections,
> > not wia street riots and guns. It's not easy, for Russia it is yet
> > thing to come.
>
> > Again I try to get answer from you, what makes Putin better then
> > Shaaka for you? In practice they are very similar, well, Putin's words
> > are more close to his real ideas. You position is built solely on fact
> > that you are eethnic russian? Or you eally think Putin is in some way
> > better?
>
> The answer is simple - compare Russia when Putin came in and at the
> beginning of the last year when he left. Look through innumerable
> articles in the *Western* media.
It's time - and oil. Try to find data for Georgia in 1991 and today
and you see the same. for Estonia, our medium income in 1991 was about
30 dollars, for now - about 1300. Must I call Ansip a superman for
luck to be in prime minister post in years Estonian development was
exremely fast?
> You indeed must be grateful to Putin too - as it were going one day
> nukes might not have been safe. "Time" for a good reason has chosen him
> a man of the year. He is universally recognized as a man who stopped
> colonial robbery of Russia (and thus upset the West).
Well, you love your historic homeland, Vlad - are you sure that SOLE
alternative to old drunkard was that little fascist? There was a
generation of young and sometimes bright guys able to turn Russia into
wealthy AND smiling country.
About "robbery by West". I hope you know something about business. If
a stupid salesman in car shop gives you a car for 100 bucks is it
yours or his fault? "Robbery" is something about violence, not paying
the sum what was on price list. Or you think companies buying things
in russia back in 1990ies must say: Nono Ivan, i can't pay such a
small price, please take three times more, it's the real price! I
personally lost about 2 thousands of dollars back in 1992 due my
starry-eyed understanding that anyone going from "West" and wanting to
do business for me acts in interests of just-free Estonian
economy :-) But I can't accuse anyone but my own stupidity. (it was
VERY BIG money for me back then - medium income was about 30 US per
month)
Basically he
> prevented death of the country. Is it why Baltics don't like him so
> much? You should relax, if not him somebody else would do it. Maybe not
> in such sleek and smart way.
> If you want to compare this clown Sharikov - do not go far - Ansip is a
> perfect blueprint.
>
Did you ever heard or read any speech or essay from Ansip? Or
Shakashvili? Strong point in totalitarian thinking: no need to work
with brains, if Great Leader finds one is bad and quilty - he is.
vello
to fight Russia without brave troops of Luxembourg. but surely they
are in defence alliance of civilized nations.
Vladimir Makarenko
It is rather mean to boast how you cornered tiny Luxy and bullied it to
buy NATO membership. Sounds like Italian mafia offering protection to
some bakery owner.
VM.
vello
> vello wrote:
> > So appartment blocks in Grozny fell from horns of Josuah? What's the
> > difference between shaaka's activities in Thinkvali and Putin's ones
> > in Grozny by you? By me just in brutality - grozny was totally
> > levelled.
>
> Grozny was destroyed by Yeltsin's (US-blessed) 1st Chechen war.
> Putin's reconquista was brutal (: Chechens and Russians are both mucho
> brutal fellas), but it was real war against hardcore Islamists.
Would you subscribe idea that hitler's agression against Russia was OK
because it was real war against hardcore commies.
btw, you can't get "real war" if one side is 150 times bigger. What
you get is just street gang beating kindergarten boy (who's truing to
bite back in limits of his physical abilities)
MTRP™
> MTRP™ wrote:
> > vello wrote:
> > > So appartment blocks in Grozny fell from horns of Josuah? What's the
> > > difference between shaaka's activities in Thinkvali and Putin's ones
> > > in Grozny by you? By me just in brutality - grozny was totally
> > > levelled.
> > Grozny was destroyed by Yeltsin's (US-blessed) 1st Chechen war.
> > Putin's reconquista was brutal (: Chechens and Russians are both mucho
> > brutal fellas), but it was real war against hardcore Islamists.
> Would you subscribe idea that hitler's agression against Russia was OK
> because it was real war against hardcore commies.
Y OK??? It was Hitler's grave miscalculation. But it was VERY REAL
WAR.
> btw, you can't get "real war" if one side is 150 times bigger. What
> you get is just street gang beating kindergarten boy (who's truing to
> bite back in limits of his physical abilities).
Crap. Chechens and Gurkhas are the 2 best real fighters worldwide.
Unlike Iraqis, A-kkkunts & Co, that is. Even Cap knows that 1 Chechen
division would easily defeat and convert to Islam all 3 Baltic states
at once. BTW Putin's reconquista was the only REALLY WON real war
against hardcore Islamists.
MTRP™
> I'm from SU, so i'm quite immune for Truth Factories production :-)
Your :-) confirmed. Cuz you just switched the sides and replaced
former SU agitprop by current US one. This is called "plain"
symmetry :-)
Vladimir Makarenko
> On May 7, 7:29 am, Vladimir Makarenko <vmak...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> vello wrote:
>
>>> Is wikipedia a party line media by you?? Witch party is involved?
>>> About two others, one is opinion of one brave lady who's son get
>>> killed in war. Other is more interesting (Chomsky would not write for
>>> bullshit company) but as stories about CIA gunning down both Kennedys
>> Well, according to results of the US Congress investigation there was a
>> conspiracy to kill JFK. Who organized it - still open question. So maybe
>> such a story make you to raise brows because you are far away and
>> somehow got complacent with Warren Commission report but the fact is
>> that its results were rejected by this later investigation which was
>> based on much more solid evidence base.
>
> I just remember one private ivestigator (sorry, his name is out of
> memory for now - Garrison or something?)
Memory tells you right - Jim Garrison, - as result - I will never buy
from you "I don't remember". But he was not a PI but a District Attorney
what granted him access to all the data and authority to dig more.
who makes himself famous/rich
> with serving possibilities as real facts. But I'm not too deeply in US
> affairs.
It is a wound which is still open, - America is a very special country.
Me personally - I am undecided almost. I have little doubt that Oswald
alone shot JFK, I am very uneasy how all related died afterwards.
>>> stay just next to Iraq story - let's say, thry like different
>>> wiewpoints. I just can't see why I must take those sites more
>>> seriously then data from more serious (and not US "controlled") media.
>> Wikipedia is infamously unreliable when it comes to hot topics, because
>> of its open source method. If Pentagon was paying money to journalists
>> to publish crap in Iraqi papers, then why not free of pay Wiki?
>>
>>> Media what I trust comes from nordic countries - small and civilized
>>> world having no motivation to "modify" information in any direction.
>>> Expecially with clearing house there is problem that they adverse
>>> himself as source of news "one can't get from CNN". Hardly we can take
>>> them as objective source, coz their slogan forces them to lie in
>>> imaginable situation when CNN talks truth :-)
>> CNN Europe and CNN USA are different animals as are BBC vs BBC America.
>> Both are whores but CNN US is especially disgusting because of 8 years
>> of Bush ass licking. That's nobody trust them anymore. Or other whores
>> of official media like NYT.
>
> I don't talk about CNN Europe - I talk about news created in Northern
> Europe - often very critical to GWB adventures.
GWB adventures? He had a company didn't he? Some guys from amber shores
were giving him a hand - didn't they? What the Northern Europe said
about that - Do Not Do That?
>>
>>
>>> About Fallujah himself, I have not enough data to make my position.
>>> From three sources here Wikipedia is most concrete: what really
>>> happens, how many casualities. Those data may be correct or wrong, but
>>> I can't subscribe "news" about US running a genocide in Fallujah - 95%
>>> of victims in Iraq are victims of shiia-sunni-kurdi fights, so main
>>> criminal here is UK with their former colonial greed to make a
>>> "country" from territory habitated by different groups having by far
>>> not friendly relations.
>> One who started the fire is responsible for death of those got burned in
>> the house. Provoking genocide is an ultimate war crime.
>> The very old data from 2006 puts number of victims of Blood for Oil
>> between 600,000 and 1,200,000.
>> This is "Lancet"'s and John Hopkins Uni results, Pentagon plainly
>> refuses to count THESE bodies.
>
> How those victims are tied with oil? Hardly sunnites, shiias or kurdis
> have oil on their flags - such things start to be important after
> freedom fight is winned.
You know there is a line in the sand when you have to stop to fight for
some little national interests at expense of other people blood. Iraqis
are people too. "Tied to oil", yeah. And happy getting water for an hour
a day.
>>
>>
>>>>> After all you are up to your ears in it. Or profits of
>>>>>> buccaneering worth destruction and blood?
>>>>> It is popular topic, but who and by how will get the big money?
>>>>> Hunting old tents and shadows in the desert with cruise missiles and
>>>>> other hi-tech is not too profitable business. Or you think that loads
>>>>> of ships and planes with robbed valuables are on the way from Iraq/
>>>>> Afganistan to Washington DC?
>>>>> Of course you can use what we learn in soviet schools: wars appear coz
>>>>> weapon making companies need market for their production. Is that your
>>>>> position?
>>>> Heh, ask around, e.g. Alan Greenspan what kind of "old tents and shadows
>>>> in the desert". You'll get the idea what kind of "loads
>>>> of ships and planes with robbed valuables" those ships are carrying to
>>>> exchange for money in the world markets.
>>> Well I asked it from you. Do you know how one can turn Iraq war into
>>> profitable business (sure it is profitable for companies supplying
>>> army. But hardly their profits were reason to send troops to Iraq -
>>> and those profits come from taxpayers pocket not from Iraq. So US as
>>> nation is in pure red.
>> Hah, you are like Russians - you also perceive USA like a monolith
>> homogeneous entity, which is not.
>
> Well, at about 50 times I made attempts here that there is no "West"
> with media controlled from some single command post.
That is a separate topic - maybe we shall take on it in a separate thread.
But listening to Euros or Russians about "the US" sometimes really
pisses me off. Even when you are right, I still feel pissed off because
the US is so young and unexperienced that the rest of the old world is
trying to sell any crap (with a cherry on the top) just to keep what is
gone.
>
> Reason to send troops to Iraq was a
>> coincidence of interests of platonic murderers - neocons, buccaneers
>> from corporate world especially oil and dumb politicians.
>>
>>>> What happened Vello you went to play innocence, ignorance, sudden
>>>> dumbness and whatever else deliberate naivete is supposed to show? You
>>>> don't know why Iraqi sands are so precious that worth genocide?
>>>> Well, if you insist to be perceived as a naive then you be treated as such.
>>> No. There is oil under sand. But again, how US profits from the war,
>>> exactly? Do you think US plans to annex Iraqui oilfields? If Iraq will
>>> become democratic, US will pay for their oil market price - like
>>> anyone else.
>> Get yourself Greenspan's memoirs, he explains it in lay terms. He was in
>> the time at the very top he knows how it was put together.
>> Or dig on the net - it's an old story now, everything became public domain.
>> USA will pay the market price, which means - me and those around, not
>> Exxon or Shell. Exxon's 2006 profit was a record in the world history of
>> corporate profits.
>
> Please be punctual: how their success is tied to Iraq? do they have
> agreement with US Army that they can pump oil for free in Iraq? For
> very low price? Third time I ask here from you how that war turns into
> greenbucks and third time you are not able to give some answer.
Do your homework: read what is "n bid contract", "share for profit" oil
contracts, Iraq's *Law* that all oil contracts are "profit for share",
etc. Today, including contracts for next ten years estimated about ~ 1
trln.
You ARE supposed to explain me this - you have an economic background.
You can easily google all that.
>>
>>
>>>>> Vladimir, you get your information from sole source - Russian media.
>>>> I think your Estonian TV is really damaging.
>>>> Do you have anything funnier to say?
>>> I just was a prophet: any single source you bring in this message are
>>> just from that sole truth factory.
>> Truth hurts. Especially when it is so bold.
>> Aspirin?
>
> I'm from SU, so i'm quite immune for Truth Factories production :-)
That is true. I sometimes feel very uncomfortable with Americans - like
an adult who knows what low life shit they are sold to children but -
what can I do?
They are not occupants. They are inhabitants, like it or not. They are
no more "British" than "Russians" in Estonia - unless you crack this you
go nowhere. They are "Estonian" Russians the same way as Russian
"Germans". How may decades it will take from you to understand?
. and surely I deserve what I will get from Irish
> people. But why you put it here - there is no any similarity. Your
> example would fit if estonians went to Moscow with their bronzeman in
> Estonian uniform with him and wanting to mount it on Red Square.
You jump started the country by rejecting and putting in misery half of
its population - it went to look for SOMETHING. It found it: Estonians
are "fucking Nazis SS". Are you happy now? Say hello to Ansip the Idiot.
> We
> are
Who are "we" - 50% or 60% of population? Not enough.
> of no interesr what monuments russians
Not Russians. - Soviets. You spat in the face of everybody if you don't
know.
Hah, - you see - when you feel BIG it does makes sense to subjugate some
tiny impudent neighbor? Welcome to the club! At last...
You know I really tired of that - if it is WWII it is General Frost, if
it is now - it is a Banker Oil. I wonder when the excuse will be: it is
Russian grammar rules.
If you really believe so - this must be Russkie God, - then go on your
knees and bow. If not - try to think.
VM.
MTRP™
> But listening to Euros or Russians about "the US" sometimes really
> pisses me off. Even when you are right, I still feel pissed off because
> the US is so young and unexperienced that the rest of the old world is
> trying to sell any crap (with a cherry on the top) just to keep what is
> gone.
US is still older than SU (was) ... both being failed European (more
precisely Franco-German) polit-experiments. But now that both parents
settled down and decided to live in peace those old bastards became
obsolete. Enough is enough. Long live impotent EU!
http://www.anekdot.ru/id/-1010802010/
vello
> vello wrote:
So maybe
> >> such a story make you to raise brows because you are far away and
> >> somehow got complacent with Warren Commission report but the fact is
> >> that its results were rejected by this later investigation which was
> >> based on much more solid evidence base.
>
> > I just remember one private ivestigator (sorry, his name is out of
> > memory for now - Garrison or something?)
>
> Memory tells you right - Jim Garrison, - as result - I will never buy
> from you "I don't remember".
In most cases it means I'm somewhat sure but too lazy to check :-)
But he was not a PI but a District Attorney
> what granted him access to all the data and authority to dig more.
>
> who makes himself famous/rich
>
> > with serving possibilities as real facts. But I'm not too deeply in US
> > affairs.
>
> It is a wound which is still open, - America is a very special country.
Sure. But I have special memories with two cases - Tutankhamun's curse
and Garrison investigation. I was a young boy planning journalistic
career and surely I was trying to make clear to myself, how GREAT
STORIES are made. I find some analyze of Tutankhamun's curse story
what shows that this is just pure statistics - if you take any human
group in particular age and look at them after x years, some y% from
them is dead - and some z% from that y are dead in somewhat suspicious
circumstances. When I read Garrison, it immediately jumps out of my
memory - there was tens of thousands people in situ in Dallas plus
other thousands having some contacts with Oswald, Ruby etc in yheir
life. So work with death data will give you guys from that large group
who perished in suspicious way, your job will be then describe cases
those poor guys met Oswald or each other - andd compile a story.
(that's very simplified approach here but I'm too lazy to go deeper in
english). I don't know was Garrison acting as cheater to make himself
known or was he just "victim" of Tutankhamun's style thinking method.
Other is maybe more probable - he discovers that some guys met Oswald
and find weird death after that. And being far from probability
studies he thinks he had find something real.
>
> Me personally - I am undecided almost. I have little doubt that Oswald
> alone shot JFK, I am very uneasy how all related died afterwards.
>
>
> > I don't talk about CNN Europe - I talk about news created in Northern
> > Europe - often very critical to GWB adventures.
>
> GWB adventures? He had a company didn't he? Some guys from amber shores
> were giving him a hand - didn't they? What the Northern Europe said
> about that - Do Not Do That?
There is not too much amber on Scandinavian shores but anyway: no
Nordic country declared himself as enemy of US - we were allies. But
surely some moments in GWB politics were hardly critizised, on state
level and surely in all media.
> > How those victims are tied with oil? Hardly sunnites, shiias or kurdis
> > have oil on their flags - such things start to be important after
> > freedom fight is winned.
>
> You know there is a line in the sand when you have to stop to fight for
> some little national interests at expense of other people blood. Iraqis
> are people too. "Tied to oil", yeah. And happy getting water for an hour
> a day.
I never met a person thinking that interests of his nation are
"little". Do you know a goal for all mankind so important that
disappearing of Russian nation would be justified price for that? Just
don't think other nations, big or small, have different feelings about
their independence or very existence.
>
>
> > Well, at about 50 times I made attempts here that there is no "West"
> > with media controlled from some single command post.
>
> That is a separate topic - maybe we shall take on it in a separate thread.
> But listening to Euros or Russians about "the US" sometimes really
> pisses me off. Even when you are right, I still feel pissed off because
> the US is so young and unexperienced that the rest of the old world is
> trying to sell any crap (with a cherry on the top) just to keep what is
> gone.
Here you are right, at least for Euros. We live (in this case, they
live :-)) 50 years taking as normal that US boys are ready to die for
their freedom - and yet they find it is normal to tell to US any
moment how they must behave to be a real gentleman. But in such cases
core of the problem is often in the other end. US is child of European
culture, for centuries admiring everything european. So ofter not
important/harmless/worthless remarks from European politics/ media
will be taken too seriously. And there is another appearance of the
same thing - will to fight one's own feel of inferiorty with bullying
and declaring "Europe is rotten bullshit". (Feel of inferiority in
this case is just psychological thing: like feelings of one winemaker
whos grapefield is unhappily on "wrong" side of tiny village road what
marks border of Grand Champagne area on map. You agree, grapes are for
sure the same on both roadsides). It's too complicated topic for my
english, so I finihed it with imaginable case in Estonia: An Estonian
guyis looking for some idea how to do things better. He gets exactly
the same answer from Swiss guy and from Indonesian guy. what he
thinks? a) Well, that Indonesian was fantastic guy, idea is perfect!
b) Dam Swiss guys think if they are richer they are also wiser!
>
>
> > Please be punctual: how their success is tied to Iraq? do they have
> > agreement with US Army that they can pump oil for free in Iraq? For
> > very low price? Third time I ask here from you how that war turns into
> > greenbucks and third time you are not able to give some answer.
>
> Do your homework: read what is "n bid contract", "share for profit" oil
> contracts, Iraq's *Law* that all oil contracts are "profit for share",
> etc. Today, including contracts for next ten years estimated about ~ 1
> trln.
> You ARE supposed to explain me this - you have an economic background.
> You can easily google all that.
But you are done that anyway. Is US in profit with Iraqui war by you?
Basically I see two targets behind that war
a) stupid and criminal one: to do something "real" after 9/11
b) to avoid situation for all mankind, where all important resources
are controlled by govts interested not in trade and cooperation but in
religious/ideological powerplay.
>
>
>
> >>>>> Vladimir, you get your information from sole source - Russian media.
> >>>> I think your Estonian TV is really damaging.
> >>>> Do you have anything funnier to say?
> >>> I just was a prophet: any single source you bring in this message are
> >>> just from that sole truth factory.
> >> Truth hurts. Especially when it is so bold.
> >> Aspirin?
>
> > I'm from SU, so i'm quite immune for Truth Factories production :-)
>
> That is true. I sometimes feel very uncomfortable with Americans - like
> an adult who knows what low life shit they are sold to children but -
> what can I do?
That may be so for sure.
> >> If you spit in catholic faces in Ulster - well you in return will face
> >> the consequences.
>
> > When I split in catholic faces in Ulster it means I identify himself
> > with occupants from UK
>
> They are ...
????????
MTRP™
> Vladimir Makarenko wrote:
> > But listening to Euros or Russians about "the US" sometimes really
> > pisses me off. Even when you are right, I still feel pissed off because
> > the US is so young and unexperienced that the rest of the old world is
> > trying to sell any crap (with a cherry on the top) just to keep what is
> > gone.
> Here you are right, at least for Euros. We live (in this case, they
> live :-)) 50 years taking as normal that US boys are ready to die for
> their freedom
That's just US post-cold-war agitprop. US boys were never ready to die
for anybody's freedom. The Cuban crisis was arguably their most
dangerous adventure, but it was US poker play on global power and
money and actually *against* freedom (in Cuba). To the contrary - US
boys always supported "their" dictators and other freedom-hating sons-
of-bitches. And more. France was the only western power arguing
against the building of Berlin Wall, but USA got scared and toppled
French attempt to intervene. Although reportedly (according to V.
Falin, et al) the then SU leader N. Khruschev was not a big fan of
DDR's wall building experiment and was ready to stop if it the Allied
Control authorities issued official joint protest.
vello
> vello wrote:
> > Vladimir Makarenko wrote:
> > > But listening to Euros or Russians about "the US" sometimes really
> > > pisses me off. Even when you are right, I still feel pissed off because
> > > the US is so young and unexperienced that the rest of the old world is
> > > trying to sell any crap (with a cherry on the top) just to keep what is
> > > gone.
> > Here you are right, at least for Euros. We live (in this case, they
> > live :-)) 50 years taking as normal that US boys are ready to die for
> > their freedom
>
> That's just US post-cold-war agitprop. US boys were never ready to die
> for anybody's freedom.
Well they die by tens of thousands in a war , despite it was held
thousands of miles from US border and they had all possibilities to
stay out of war.
The Cuban crisis was arguably their most
> dangerous adventure, but it was US poker play on global power and
> money and actually *against* freedom (in Cuba). To the contrary - US
> boys always supported "their" dictators and other freedom-hating sons-
> of-bitches. And more. France was the only western power arguing
> against the building of Berlin Wall, but USA got scared and toppled
> French attempt to intervene. Although reportedly (according to V.
> Falin, et al) the then SU leader N. Khruschev was not a big fan of
> DDR's wall building experiment and was ready to stop if it the Allied
> Control authorities issued official joint protest.
OK, it was just 15 years after you guys shut down your last gas
chamber, so maybe will to die for GERMAN freedom was not so popular
amoung US troops.
MTRP™
> MTRP™ wrote:
> > vello wrote:
> > > Vladimir Makarenko wrote:
> > > > But listening to Euros or Russians about "the US" sometimes really
> > > > pisses me off. Even when you are right, I still feel pissed off because
> > > > the US is so young and unexperienced that the rest of the old world is
> > > > trying to sell any crap (with a cherry on the top) just to keep what is
> > > > gone.
> > > Here you are right, at least for Euros. We live (in this case, they
> > > live :-)) 50 years taking as normal that US boys are ready to die for
> > > their freedom
> > That's just US post-cold-war agitprop. US boys were never ready to die
> > for anybody's freedom.
> Well they die by tens of thousands in a war , despite it was held
> thousands of miles from US border and they had all possibilities to
> stay out of war.
Where? In Iraq - for foreign oil?
> > The Cuban crisis was arguably their most
> > dangerous adventure, but it was US poker play on global power and
> > money and actually *against* freedom (in Cuba). To the contrary - US
> > boys always supported "their" dictators and other freedom-hating sons-
> > of-bitches. And more. France was the only western power arguing
> > against the building of Berlin Wall, but USA got scared and toppled
> > French attempt to intervene. Although reportedly (according to V.
> > Falin, et al) the then SU leader N. Khruschev was not a big fan of
> > DDR's wall building experiment and was ready to stop if it the Allied
> > Control authorities issued official joint protest.
> OK, it was just 15 years after you guys shut down your last gas
> chamber, so maybe will to die for GERMAN freedom was not so popular
> amoung US troops.
LOL. Even Cap knows JFK's "I'm a Berliner!". Anyway whose freedom they
were defending, then? Certainly not Japanese ... and hardly
Vitenamese, either.
Vladimir Makarenko
> What is "lay man term"?
Explanation without fancy specialized terms which would confuse and only
make the subject obscure.
"extensive interrogation technique" - in lay man terms is Torture.
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
Interesting. I never heard that before - I don't know if this really
would hold against stat test but makes sense. Of course we have to check
where MTRP was at the moment...After all people don't go to Brazil for
beaches but for lack of extradition treaties...
>> Me personally - I am undecided almost. I have little doubt that Oswald
>> alone shot JFK, I am very uneasy how all related died afterwards.
>>
>
>>> I don't talk about CNN Europe - I talk about news created in Northern
>>> Europe - often very critical to GWB adventures.
>> GWB adventures? He had a company didn't he? Some guys from amber shores
>> were giving him a hand - didn't they? What the Northern Europe said
>> about that - Do Not Do That?
>
> There is not too much amber on Scandinavian shores but anyway: no
> Nordic country declared himself as enemy of US - we were allies. But
> surely some moments in GWB politics were hardly critizised,
You don't say "hardly criticized" - it means exactly opposite to what
you intended to say. Cliche is "harshly criticized".
> on state
> level and surely in all media.
Yeah, so much and so loud that my ears are still bleeding...
Come on - it was the usual Euro way - as long as it is not about killing
us we don't care, we can even give a hand.
>
>>> How those victims are tied with oil? Hardly sunnites, shiias or kurdis
>>> have oil on their flags - such things start to be important after
>>> freedom fight is winned.
>> You know there is a line in the sand when you have to stop to fight for
>> some little national interests at expense of other people blood. Iraqis
>> are people too. "Tied to oil", yeah. And happy getting water for an hour
>> a day.
>
> I never met a person thinking that interests of his nation are
> "little". Do you know a goal for all mankind so important that
> disappearing of Russian nation would be justified price for that? Just
> don't think other nations, big or small, have different feelings about
> their independence or very existence.
No national interests justify vaporizing a country. We just argued if
politicians can be really dumb - Iraq is a mega example - if Bush would
hire few ex Soviets to manage the affair Saddam would be killed by his
own people. Instead Bush burned a whole country to get one bad guy top
prove his father what a guy he is.
>
>>> Well, at about 50 times I made attempts here that there is no "West"
>>> with media controlled from some single command post.
>> That is a separate topic - maybe we shall take on it in a separate thread.
>> But listening to Euros or Russians about "the US" sometimes really
>> pisses me off. Even when you are right, I still feel pissed off because
>> the US is so young and unexperienced that the rest of the old world is
>> trying to sell any crap (with a cherry on the top) just to keep what is
>> gone.
>
> Here you are right, at least for Euros. We live (in this case, they
> live :-)) 50 years taking as normal that US boys are ready to die for
> their freedom - and yet they find it is normal to tell to US any
> moment how they must behave to be a real gentleman.
Just watch how MTRP's trying to piss me off trying to rain on the States
- but I stay cool and above. Maybe it's true that Russians are bears -
one has to work really hard to wake us up. And hard work is not what one
can find on beaches of Rio.
> But in such cases
> core of the problem is often in the other end. US is child of European
> culture,
Hah? America has as many fathers and mothers as nations on the planet:
think about blacks, I am sometimes just merely amazed and left mute:
from jazz to poetry of rap. Art of Rap singing btw existed in Russia and
still exist in villages far far away - called "речитатив".
> for centuries admiring everything european.
There is something I never saw anywhere in Europe - openness, curiosity
and thirst for knowledge - whatever knowledge - social, scientific,
religious whatever. Something of child genius.
> So ofter not
> important/harmless/worthless remarks from European politics/ media
> will be taken too seriously.
It's a teenage pain and anger - when adults criticize teens often freak
out. USA in difference with old countries doesn't have history
established self reference frame to measure, judge itself. Hence
sensitivity to others' opinions. Not many precedents to council to,
almost every time is new. Hence some mistakes. Besides of course there
are moronic scumbags like Cheney who take advantage when it's possible.
Cheney is a classic Soviet style marinated nomenclatura. "Them" the
people, and "Us" the rulers. And Bush - a golden boy. A sucker: "Mommy!
I am supposed to read a bible and fuck interns, not to deal with 9/11!"
> And there is another appearance of the
> same thing - will to fight one's own feel of inferiorty with bullying
> and declaring "Europe is rotten bullshit".
That is a major exagerration. The US has unknown to Europeans lack of
self censorship and what Euros ofetn think Americans say. Stupid? Yes -
within Euro frame of mentality. But no offense is really intended. Just
casual venting of disappointment or suggestion - "fix it".
> (Feel of inferiority in
> this case is just psychological thing: like feelings of one winemaker
> whos grapefield is unhappily on "wrong" side of tiny village road what
> marks border of Grand Champagne area on map. You agree, grapes are for
> sure the same on both roadsides). It's too complicated topic for my
> english, so I finihed it with imaginable case in Estonia: An Estonian
> guyis looking for some idea how to do things better. He gets exactly
> the same answer from Swiss guy and from Indonesian guy. what he
> thinks? a) Well, that Indonesian was fantastic guy, idea is perfect!
> b) Dam Swiss guys think if they are richer they are also wiser!
>
>>> Please be punctual: how their success is tied to Iraq? do they have
>>> agreement with US Army that they can pump oil for free in Iraq? For
>>> very low price? Third time I ask here from you how that war turns into
>>> greenbucks and third time you are not able to give some answer.
>> Do your homework: read what is "n bid contract", "share for profit" oil
>> contracts, Iraq's *Law* that all oil contracts are "profit for share",
>> etc. Today, including contracts for next ten years estimated about ~ 1
>> trln.
>> You ARE supposed to explain me this - you have an economic background.
>> You can easily google all that.
>
> But you are done that anyway. Is US in profit with Iraqui war by you?
The USA is a community of people. Some of this community hit a jackpot
with Iraq war - e.g. oil companies. 99% of the members lost,- some
money, quite a few their lives.
Judge yourself.
If I were a God of Vengeance - Cheney and Wolfowitz today would share a
room in Baghdad, and not in Emerald City but in some Shia slum. THIS
would be fun to watch as TV reality show. I would Tivo every episode.
I would especially enjoy them washing their nderwear in 110 heat with
dirty water for one hour a day.
I am cruel, I do not deny that.
> Basically I see two targets behind that war
> a) stupid and criminal one: to do something "real" after 9/11
The awful truth is that they used 9/11 as an EXCUSE. The intention was
there but no convenient justification before 9/11.
They used other people blood as an excuse. To spill more blood. Such
scumbags. For what, - few bucks and ego.
> b) to avoid situation for all mankind, where all important resources
> are controlled by govts interested not in trade and cooperation but in
> religious/ideological powerplay.
They were not capable of strategic thinking. They were evil morons. Oil
is not the answer. Oil is a problem. Obama fortunately has very clever
science adviser. And he listens and thinks.
God, isn't America the Chosen One to get the guy exactly when it is needed?
>>
>>
>>>>>>> Vladimir, you get your information from sole source - Russian media.
>>>>>> I think your Estonian TV is really damaging.
>>>>>> Do you have anything funnier to say?
>>>>> I just was a prophet: any single source you bring in this message are
>>>>> just from that sole truth factory.
>>>> Truth hurts. Especially when it is so bold.
>>>> Aspirin?
>>> I'm from SU, so i'm quite immune for Truth Factories production :-)
>> That is true. I sometimes feel very uncomfortable with Americans - like
>> an adult who knows what low life shit they are sold to children but -
>> what can I do?
>
> That may be so for sure.
One thing what makes you feel happy here - nothing can make the
USAmericans to surrender civil liberties. You should first shoot them.
Even the trash of the trash will claim s/his rights for a lawyer,
freedom of speech and live free - otherwise shoot s/him first.
VM.
vello
Well hardly MIR would hit moving target from distance. And with
organizing plot on background - it's even more hopeless :-)
>
> >> Me personally - I am undecided almost. I have little doubt that Oswald
> >> alone shot JFK, I am very uneasy how all related died afterwards.
Me basically too. Here is also interesting phenomen in human
behaviour: if someone wrecks truk due his stuoidity or if some guy
will be shot in fight behind bar no one looks for conspiracy. But if
there is a Titanic or spaceship instead of truck or known person
instead of drunken sailor, people (and yellow media living on such
things) will start to create absurd theories.
>
> >>> I don't talk about CNN Europe - I talk about news created in Northern
> >>> Europe - often very critical to GWB adventures.
> >> GWB adventures? He had a company didn't he? Some guys from amber shores
> >> were giving him a hand - didn't they? What the Northern Europe said
> >> about that - Do Not Do That?
>
> > There is not too much amber on Scandinavian shores but anyway: no
> > Nordic country declared himself as enemy of US - we were allies. But
> > surely some moments in GWB politics were hardly critizised,
>
> You don't say "hardly criticized" - it means exactly opposite to what
> you intended to say. Cliche is "harshly criticized".
>
> > on state
> > level and surely in all media.
>
> Yeah, so much and so loud that my ears are still bleeding...
> Come on - it was the usual Euro way - as long as it is not about killing
> us we don't care, we can even give a hand.
Well there are not too much countries in fact able to "care". God give
me change things I can change, let alone things I can't cjhange - and
give me wisdom to see difference between those categories (God -
hebrew - greek - german - estonian - to english by Vello, I hope you
are able to decipher the original phrase from Bible (and Vonnegut) :-)
>
> >>> How those victims are tied with oil? Hardly sunnites, shiias or kurdis
> >>> have oil on their flags - such things start to be important after
> >>> freedom fight is winned.
> >> You know there is a line in the sand when you have to stop to fight for
> >> some little national interests at expense of other people blood. Iraqis
> >> are people too. "Tied to oil", yeah. And happy getting water for an hour
> >> a day.
>
> > I never met a person thinking that interests of his nation are
> > "little". Do you know a goal for all mankind so important that
> > disappearing of Russian nation would be justified price for that? Just
> > don't think other nations, big or small, have different feelings about
> > their independence or very existence.
>
> No national interests justify vaporizing a country.
What is a "country"? Wasn't Ottoman empire a "country"? Or British
one? Or Habsburgian? Putting abstract lines on map higher then natural
will of any nation to live in freedom would let tens of nations under
Turkish, British, Austrian or Russian slavery till today (hint:
slavery in this case menas not some opression what may or may not
present - just knowledge that you (and what's worst - your kids and
their kids) are doomed to live in environment of other culture and in
other language)
We just argued if
> politicians can be really dumb - Iraq is a mega example - if Bush would
> hire few ex Soviets to manage the affair Saddam would be killed by his
> own people. Instead Bush burned a whole country to get one bad guy top
> prove his father what a guy he is.
About "dumb" politicians - 5 times Formula1 world champion michael
Schumacher makes during one race weekend more driving faults then you
or me during five years - it is not sign we drive better, it just
happens coz he is driving 200 miles per hour.
It do exists in Europe (how much I know in russia also), but for
Europe you have to have a "key" first. After endless wars europeans
are a bit suspicious towards anyone "new" person - even if we don
t think about it - it's reflex.
>
> > So ofter not
> > important/harmless/worthless remarks from European politics/ media
> > will be taken too seriously.
>
> It's a teenage pain and anger - when adults criticize teens often freak
> out. USA in difference with old countries doesn't have history
> established self reference frame to measure, judge itself. Hence
> sensitivity to others' opinions. Not many precedents to council to,
> almost every time is new. Hence some mistakes. Besides of course there
> are moronic scumbags like Cheney who take advantage when it's possible.
> Cheney is a classic Soviet style marinated nomenclatura. "Them" the
> people, and "Us" the rulers. And Bush - a golden boy. A sucker: "Mommy!
> I am supposed to read a bible and fuck interns, not to deal with 9/11!"
>
> > And there is another appearance of the
> > same thing - will to fight one's own feel of inferiorty with bullying
> > and declaring "Europe is rotten bullshit".
>
> That is a major exagerration. The US has unknown to Europeans lack of
> self censorship and what Euros ofetn think Americans say. Stupid? Yes -
> within Euro frame of mentality. But no offense is really intended. Just
> casual venting of disappointment or suggestion - "fix it".
_That's true. Yanks have no history of "close international relations"
- Europe is a garden with tens of tribes roughly the same size. So
history says to us - if you do not need trouble - think what you say.
>
>
> > But you are done that anyway. Is US in profit with Iraqui war by you?
>
> The USA is a community of people. Some of this community hit a jackpot
> with Iraq war - e.g. oil companies. 99% of the members lost,- some
> money, quite a few their lives.
> Judge yourself.
> If I were a God of Vengeance - Cheney and Wolfowitz today would share a
> room in Baghdad, and not in Emerald City but in some Shia slum. THIS
> would be fun to watch as TV reality show. I would Tivo every episode.
> I would especially enjoy them washing their nderwear in 110 heat with
> dirty water for one hour a day.
> I am cruel, I do not deny that.
>
> > Basically I see two targets behind that war
> > a) stupid and criminal one: to do something "real" after 9/11
>
> The awful truth is that they used 9/11 as an EXCUSE. The intention was
> there but no convenient justification before 9/11.
Are you sure? for just oil, much easier would to "take" it from
Venezuela or Kuwait - just some marines and three days. By me, what
turns GWB mad was situation that he was attacked, hed has the biggest
gun in hands - but no clear enemy to shot. US wants to revenge, but
for revenge you need a real subject.
That's the basis of Nordic livestyle. no idea, no target can't be more
important then human itself.
Vladimir Makarenko
cut...
>> The awful truth is that they used 9/11 as an EXCUSE. The intention was
>> there but no convenient justification before 9/11.
>
> Are you sure?
Yes. It's quite a common knowledge around. As with all conspiracies -
the problem is that people talk:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/09/60minutes/main592330.shtml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/4354269.stm
VM.
I wouldn't generalize that wide:
>
>
Vladimir Makarenko
> Me basically too. Here is also interesting phenomen in human
> behaviour: if someone wrecks truk due his stuoidity or if some guy
> will be shot in fight behind bar no one looks for conspiracy. But if
> there is a Titanic or spaceship instead of truck or known person
> instead of drunken sailor, people (and yellow media living on such
> things) will start to create absurd theories.
As you were unfolding psycho causes of conspiracy theories something
started to ring by association - eventually I recalled what: try to find
S. Lem "The Investigation". No direct connection but on psychological
troubles of investigating. I don't know if it was ever published in
Russian, but it is very "Lem" novel. I read it in English. You may try
on line check with Moshkov's library: Lib.ru. Science is very close to
this kind of job: always asking is it really real or just looks really real?
VM.
vello
> vello wrote:
> > Me basically too. Here is also interesting phenomen in human
> > behaviour: if someone wrecks truk due his stuoidity or if some guy
> > will be shot in fight behind bar no one looks for conspiracy. But if
> > there is a Titanic or spaceship instead of truck or known person
> > instead of drunken sailor, people (and yellow media living on such
> > things) will start to create absurd theories.
>
> As you were unfolding psycho causes of conspiracy theories something
> started to ring by association - eventually I recalled what: try to find
> S. Lem "The Investigation". No direct connection but on psychological
> troubles of investigating. I don't know if it was ever published in
> Russian, but it is very "Lem" novel. I read it in English. You may try
> on line check with Moshkov's library: Lib.ru. Science is very close to
> this kind of job: always asking is it really real or just looks really real?
>
languages I can deal in (pop)sci, news, politics, economy - but not so
easily with literature. But Lem is in most part available in Estonian,
so i had to check. In my teenage years, Ion Tichy's memoirs/Star
diaries were amoung my favourite books. Do you remember building ideal
great future society without the crime and violence, without the
poverty and diseases... via pressing all humans into something like CD-
discs and making ornaments on Earth from them? :-).
vello
Vladimir Makarenko
Because as everyone else - the Nordic have their own closet full of
skeletons.
VM.
vello
May you open that door to that closet (means toilet in estonian :-))?
Bad vikings? Just let's agree we talk about Nordic, not about
individualities: things done by some Nordic country are things done by
freely elected govt of particular country (too tired to count how much
individuals from almost any european nations fight on German side)
J. Anderson
"Vladimir Makarenko" <vma...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6oGdnegBz5B2l5vX...@giganews.com...
> Obama fortunately has very clever science adviser. And he listens and
> thinks.
> God, isn't America the Chosen One to get the guy exactly when it is
> needed?
God moves in mysterious ways. He first gave America GWB and then Obama. He
wanted to create a contrast. What a cheap, unnecessary trick. We are not
impressed. Go away, god.
J. Anderson
"vello" <vell...@hot.ee> wrote in message
news:d7dc58d3-1d1c-4c7e...@s20g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
> But if there is a Titanic or spaceship instead of truck
> or known person instead of drunken sailor, people
> (and yellow media living on such things) will start to
> create absurd theories.
At least in Sweden and America, the two countries where conspiration
theories really thrive.
Probably because they haven't had a war at home for such a long time.
MTRP™
> Vladimir Makarenko wrote:
> > Obama fortunately has very clever science adviser. And he listens and
> > thinks.
> > God, isn't America the Chosen One to get the guy exactly when it is
> > needed?
> God moves in mysterious ways. He first gave America GWB and then Obama. He
> wanted to create a contrast. What a cheap, unnecessary trick. We are not
> impressed. Go away, god.
LOL. No mystery here. Johnny confused God with Satan who keeps
confusing stupid mortals.
Vladimir Makarenko
Nothing comes out of blue - if particular part of Nordic population
found it acceptable and worth to go to war to fight for murderous
ideology - then there was something what made these people to readily
accept this view of the world.
I am not singling out Nordics, everybody during these times went insane.
But I insist that Nordics were not some island of humanity in the ocean
genocides.
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
Lem for me if not God but a Teacher. Such a kind brain and without ego.
Sometimes angry and rough but such a great mind and human.
And this is real - he, years before the idea was formulated and
presented in appropriate math formalism, described it in "Invincible":
what today is a common knowledge - the phenomenon of "intellect" is a
property of distributed collective dynamics. No Homunculus.
He was a genius. - To sting Tadas Blinda - he was a Pole and a Jew.
I am mean.
Russians now publishing all his non fiction works. I'll post a link -
his views on techno evolution.
VM.
vello
against ideologies putting abstract ideas higher then very human
itself. Even in Germany and Russia. Some of them failed to understand
the reality - but it is too much to ask from one teenager to judge
leaders of his own nation. Even today, I'm pretty sure that if there
was offered a possibility to annihilate "enemies of nation" by simple
pushing a button, there were a lot of them - in USA, in Russia, even
in Estonia.
MTRP™
> Lem for me if not God but a Teacher. [...]
> Russians now publishing all his non fiction works. I'll post a link -
> his views on techno evolution.
I'd luv to see his (fictitious) "Kongres futurologiczny" in Russian.
Familiar English and German translations are lousy (as usual) and I
wonder how to translate his farcial parody of sci debate in midage
Polish slang ...
MTRP™
> I'd luv to see his (fictitious) "Kongres futurologiczny" in Russian.
> Familiar English and German translations are lousy (as usual) and I
> wonder how to translate his farcial parody of sci debate in midage
> Polish slang ...
: medieval Polish slang
vello
He was real prophet. Astronauts on ISS are just learning to drink
water from ....
MTRP™
P.S.
Obama U-turn on abuse photographs
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8048774.stm
<q>
US President Barack Obama has changed his mind and will now attempt to
block the publication of photographs showing the abuse of prisoners by
US soldiers.
The US government had previously said it would not fight a court
ruling ordering the release of the pictures.
Mr Obama now believes the release of the photos would make the job of
US troops in Iraq and Afghanistan more difficult, White House
officials said.
</q>