Call of Duty: Cop uses YouTube to warn Putin of corruption
Anton
�A police officer in Southern Russia has been fired after publicly
accusing his bosses of corruption. The online broadcast by Major Aleksey
Dymovsky has turned the spotlight on the problem in the country.
Dymovsky calls on Prime Minister Vladimir Putin to take steps to fight
corruption in the police force. He says officers are forced to make up
criminal charges against innocent people, in order to cover up the
police's inability to track down real criminals. Although Dymovsky was
immediately fired for what his superiors considered slander, an official
probe has been launched by the country's interior ministry into the
situation in the local police department. The video has attracted
hundreds of thousands viewers on YouTube since it was posted last week. �
Hey, if more people over there make a habit of this the impossible could
happen. I hope they have a internet fundraising to get this guy some
bread until he finds a new job. He sure has deserved all forms of
support by the public.
--
Anton
Vladimir Makarenko
And more followed the suit:
http://www.gazeta.ru/social/2009/11/12/3285759.shtml
It is not just about corruption but the system failure when overworked
and underpaid police is forced to produce "numbers" for reports
upstairs, basically pushed to frame people to add to statistics another
crime as "solved".
They also are harassed for/if joining police trade union, the only
organization which somehow dares to speak for their labor rights.
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
And even more - what makes to ask (or answer) uneasy question - as it is
today Russian system of overseeing the law agencies is to put it mildly
INEFFECTIVE if officers of Law have to turn to Out of system means to
break the ice of silence and corruption.
Number of youtube Russian cops anger is growing. Now officers of
prosecution joined.
VM.
vello
wrote:
> Vladimir Makarenko wrote:
> > Anton wrote:
> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H0UMmsyZdk&feature=related
>
> >> accusing his bosses of corruption. The online broadcast by Major Aleksey
> >> Dymovsky has turned the spotlight on the problem in the country.
> >> Dymovsky calls on Prime Minister Vladimir Putin to take steps to fight
> >> corruption in the police force. He says officers are forced to make up
> >> criminal charges against innocent people, in order to cover up the
> >> police's inability to track down real criminals. Although Dymovsky was
> >> immediately fired for what his superiors considered slander, an official
> >> probe has been launched by the country's interior ministry into the
> >> situation in the local police department. The video has attracted
>
> >> Hey, if more people over there make a habit of this the impossible
> >> could happen. I hope they have a internet fundraising to get this guy
> >> some bread until he finds a new job. He sure has deserved all forms of
> >> support by the public.
>
> > And more followed the suit:
>
> >http://www.gazeta.ru/social/2009/11/12/3285759.shtml
>
> > It is not just about corruption but the system failure when overworked
> > and underpaid police is forced to produce "numbers" for reports
> > upstairs, basically pushed to frame people to add to statistics another
> > crime as "solved".
> > They also are harassed for/if joining police trade union, the only
> > organization which somehow dares to speak for their labor rights.
>
> > VM.
>
> And even more - what makes to ask (or answer) uneasy question - as it is
> today Russian system of overseeing the law agencies is to put it mildly
> INEFFECTIVE if officers of Law have to turn to Out of system means to
> break the ice of silence and corruption.
> Number of youtube Russian cops anger is growing. Now officers of
> prosecution joined.
>
> VM
Sad that there is still belief into "good Czar" in Russia. Successful
society will work in direction to create a governing system able to
work even with some Nixon or Bush in top office.
Vladimir Makarenko
> On Nov 14, 5:54 am, Vladimir Makarenko <vmak...@nospamgmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Vladimir Makarenko wrote:
>>> Anton wrote:
>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H0UMmsyZdk&feature=related
>>>> accusing his bosses of corruption. The online broadcast by Major Aleksey
>>>> Dymovsky has turned the spotlight on the problem in the country.
>>>> Dymovsky calls on Prime Minister Vladimir Putin to take steps to fight
>>>> corruption in the police force. He says officers are forced to make up
>>>> criminal charges against innocent people, in order to cover up the
>>>> police's inability to track down real criminals. Although Dymovsky was
>>>> immediately fired for what his superiors considered slander, an official
>>>> probe has been launched by the country's interior ministry into the
>>>> situation in the local police department. The video has attracted
>>>> Hey, if more people over there make a habit of this the impossible
>>>> could happen. I hope they have a internet fundraising to get this guy
>>>> some bread until he finds a new job. He sure has deserved all forms of
>>>> support by the public.
>>> And more followed the suit:
>>> http://www.gazeta.ru/social/2009/11/12/3285759.shtml
>>> It is not just about corruption but the system failure when overworked
>>> and underpaid police is forced to produce "numbers" for reports
>>> upstairs, basically pushed to frame people to add to statistics another
>>> crime as "solved".
>>> They also are harassed for/if joining police trade union, the only
>>> organization which somehow dares to speak for their labor rights.
>>> VM.
>> And even more - what makes to ask (or answer) uneasy question - as it is
>> today Russian system of overseeing the law agencies is to put it mildly
>> INEFFECTIVE if officers of Law have to turn to Out of system means to
>> break the ice of silence and corruption.
>> Number of youtube Russian cops anger is growing. Now officers of
>> prosecution joined.
>>
>> VM
>
> Sad that there is still belief into "good Czar" in Russia. Successful
> society will work in direction to create a governing system able to
> work even with some Nixon or Bush in top office.
>
Sad as it is you have to pay attention - the guys didn't drop a
clandestine letter to a mail box - they went loud and public knowing
very well that they expose themselves as soft targets. That they say -
it is an address to the president means nothing, it is an address to the
country. It is not courage to complain it is courage to bring dirty
laundry public.
VM.
vello
wrote:
> vello wrote:
> > On Nov 14, 5:54 am, Vladimir Makarenko <vmak...@nospamgmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >> Vladimir Makarenko wrote:
> >>> Anton wrote:
> >>>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H0UMmsyZdk&feature=related
> >>>> accusing his bosses of corruption. The online broadcast by Major Aleksey
> >>>> Dymovsky has turned the spotlight on the problem in the country.
> >>>> Dymovsky calls on Prime Minister Vladimir Putin to take steps to fight
> >>>> corruption in the police force. He says officers are forced to make up
> >>>> criminal charges against innocent people, in order to cover up the
> >>>> police's inability to track down real criminals. Although Dymovsky was
> >>>> immediately fired for what his superiors considered slander, an official
> >>>> probe has been launched by the country's interior ministry into the
> >>>> situation in the local police department. The video has attracted
Maybe. Well in position of that guy I would address my anger on prime
minister/govt allowing such a situation in the country, not playing
that prime is not responsible about misdoings in police system.
Dmitry
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H0UMmsyZdk&feature=related
>
> ”A police officer in Southern Russia has been fired after publicly
> accusing his bosses of corruption. The online broadcast by Major Aleksey
> Dymovsky has turned the spotlight on the problem in the country.
> Dymovsky calls on Prime Minister Vladimir Putin to take steps to fight
> corruption in the police force. He says officers are forced to make up
> criminal charges against innocent people, in order to cover up the
> police's inability to track down real criminals. Although Dymovsky was
> immediately fired for what his superiors considered slander, an official
> probe has been launched by the country's interior ministry into the
> situation in the local police department. The video has attracted
>
> Hey, if more people over there make a habit of this the impossible could
> happen. I hope they have a internet fundraising to get this guy some
> bread until he finds a new job. He sure has deserved all forms of
> support by the public.
>
> --
> Anton
I've seen it some time ago. Very brave guy. Good man.
At least he was just sacked, back in Sovok he would face much more
serious consequences for such action. Mind you, he wouldn't even be
able to appear on television -))
Vladimir Makarenko
> On Nov 15, 1:16 am, Vladimir Makarenko <vmak...@nospamgmail.com>
> wrote:
>> vello wrote:
>>> On Nov 14, 5:54 am, Vladimir Makarenko <vmak...@nospamgmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Vladimir Makarenko wrote:
>>>>> Anton wrote:
>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H0UMmsyZdk&feature=related
>>>>>> accusing his bosses of corruption. The online broadcast by Major Aleksey
>>>>>> Dymovsky has turned the spotlight on the problem in the country.
>>>>>> Dymovsky calls on Prime Minister Vladimir Putin to take steps to fight
>>>>>> corruption in the police force. He says officers are forced to make up
>>>>>> criminal charges against innocent people, in order to cover up the
>>>>>> police's inability to track down real criminals. Although Dymovsky was
>>>>>> immediately fired for what his superiors considered slander, an official
>>>>>> probe has been launched by the country's interior ministry into the
>>>>>> situation in the local police department. The video has attracted
Of course the prime and the president are responsible: but it is not
about the recent state of inherited affairs but what they are doing to
change it.
If You know how to make a silver bullet (or part of it) - post it on
Medvedev's blog, you as Estonian i.e. ex Soviet (especially if you
remind about your Soviet Army term) will be listened with much greater
chance than e.g. myself. There are millions of Russians who bitch that
Mumu wasn't written by Pushkin but only few Estonians who try to open
interstate dialog not at expense of Russia.
You are the one who had to be sent to Russia as Estonia's ambassador
during the crisis days so that you would step out on the embassy porch
in front of "nashi" mob and yelled at them: Ryadovoi! -Upal - otzhalsya!
I can assure you the Russia would laugh till pains and police would beat
"nashi" with joy.
Instead you sent a woman. What is wrong with this world using women to
stand up for countries?
I think we were there years ago - put the cards on the table: "this we
can trade, this we may trade, this is off the limits - forget about it.
And do not push us: we are a small country with a big potential for a
trouble." Taking on Russia's dead wasn't a smart move.
If I were you I would invite this Latvian poor beaten woman to lead the
country - I judge by myself if I trust her while being almost anti
Baltic then most Russians in Estonia would trust her too. Besides I feel
a corporate solidarity - she is from Academia and really has a nerve to
take heat. We Academia people have to take care of each other, the rest
of world speaks language we normally do not understand.
VM.
Anton
> On 10 Nov, 21:54, Anton <anton.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H0UMmsyZdk&feature=related
> I've seen it some time ago. Very brave guy. Good man.
> At least he was just sacked, back in Sovok he would face much more
> serious consequences for such action.
No doubt that would be the case. I think it is almost a miracle that
people have managed to survive mentally in such a society that is so
hostile towards normal bahaviour of our species. I really have no idea
if I had - the likelyhood for "no" as the answer is significant.
> Mind you, he wouldn't even be
> able to appear on television -))
The fact that Russia has not gone the Beijing path regarding the
internet gives that country plenty of hope. I have had friends visiting
China and cursing that they can't use normal internet services like
Facebook during their stay. Many take these freedoms for granted and are
really surprised when they learn that these services are unavailable.
The thought had not even occurred to them why a Facebook or non-Chinese
Google could be "dangerous" in the eyes of the regime.
--
Anton
Anton
> On 10 Nov, 21:54, Anton <anton.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H0UMmsyZdk&feature=related
> I've seen it some time ago. Very brave guy. Good man.
>
> At least he was just sacked, back in Sovok he would face much more
> serious consequences for such action. Mind you, he wouldn't even be
> able to appear on television -))
I wrote a reply to this late yesterday, but can't find it. Did I
accidentally send it to you by mail? If so, please "return to sender" :)
The email address I use for usenet works, ergo is not a "spam block"
obfuscated one.
--
Anton
Dmitry
> Dmitry kirjoitti:
>
> > On 10 Nov, 21:54, Anton <anton.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H0UMmsyZdk&feature=related
> > I've seen it some time ago. Very brave guy. Good man.
> > At least he was just sacked, back in Sovok he would face much more
> > serious consequences for such action.
>
> No doubt that would be the case. I think it is almost a miracle that
> people have managed to survive mentally in such a society that is so
> hostile towards normal bahaviour of our species.
It is due to the difference in understanding what "normality" is. I
knew many people who were locked up in mental hospitals for not
fitting in Soviet mentality framework. In some parts of USSR you
could be diagnosed with schizophrenia just because of wrong
hairstyle. Compulsory treatment in those institutions was rather
brutal and in some cases involved electric-shock and insulin therapies
(it was believed by Soviet science that these treatments can cure
schizophrenia). Many perfectly normal people had to go through being
locked up (Soviet mental hospitals were very much prison-like places),
being drugged and in some cases physically tortured. For most people
the sentence was between 4 and 6 months (depending on diagnosis) and
more if they re-offend (e.g. grown their hair again).
> I really have no idea
> if I had - the likelyhood for "no" as the answer is significant.
>
> > Mind you, he wouldn't even be
> > able to appear on television -))
>
> The fact that Russia has not gone the Beijing path regarding the
> internet gives that country plenty of hope. I have had friends visiting
> China and cursing that they can't use normal internet services like
> Facebook during their stay. Many take these freedoms for granted and are
> really surprised when they learn that these services are unavailable.
Yes. I have the same reports from people who visit China and Chinese
people who visit me here. One Chinese guy said that this is the
weakeness of their Communist government.
> The thought had not even occurred to them why a Facebook or non-Chinese
> Google could be "dangerous" in the eyes of the regime.
Anything that they don't understand can be dangerous to them.
>
> --
> Anton
Dmitry
Sometimes usenet posts appear with delay.
Anton
>>> On 10 Nov, 21:54, Anton <anton.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H0UMmsyZdk&feature=related
>>> I've seen it some time ago. Very brave guy. Good man.
>>> At least he was just sacked, back in Sovok he would face much more
>>> serious consequences for such action.
>> No doubt that would be the case. I think it is almost a miracle that
>> people have managed to survive mentally in such a society that is so
>> hostile towards normal bahaviour of our species.
> It is due to the difference in understanding what "normality" is. I
> knew many people who were locked up in mental hospitals for not
> fitting in Soviet mentality framework. In some parts of USSR you
> could be diagnosed with schizophrenia just because of wrong
> hairstyle. Compulsory treatment in those institutions was rather
> brutal and in some cases involved electric-shock and insulin therapies
> (it was believed by Soviet science that these treatments can cure
> schizophrenia). Many perfectly normal people had to go through being
> locked up (Soviet mental hospitals were very much prison-like places),
> being drugged and in some cases physically tortured. For most people
> the sentence was between 4 and 6 months (depending on diagnosis) and
> more if they re-offend (e.g. grown their hair again).
I have heard of these things. After the fall of the USSR documentaries
of life east of the iron Curtain were frequent on our television. In
particular I remember a scene of a passed out (or dead?) dissident being
dragged through a corridor in a KGB facility. He did not look too
different from the guy in my mirror. I almost puked when I saw what had
been done to the poor human being.
>> The fact that Russia has not gone the Beijing path regarding the
>> internet gives that country plenty of hope. I have had friends visiting
>> China and cursing that they can't use normal internet services like
>> Facebook during their stay. Many take these freedoms for granted and are
>> really surprised when they learn that these services are unavailable.
> Yes. I have the same reports from people who visit China and Chinese
> people who visit me here. One Chinese guy said that this is the
> weakeness of their Communist government.
The weird thing is that some ordinary westerners don't know that the
Peoples Republic Of China is a police state. Some go "what???" when they
learn that they cannot log in on Facebook or search with Google on the
laptop they have brought with them on their trip to China. In a Beijing
or Shanghai they see the material wealth and economic freedom, but they
don't realize that while business is free flow of information is not.
The tourist that has never himself lived in a police state can not
picture himself that in another country it is forbidden to log on
Facebook or demonstrate in front of the town hall for even the most
innocent thing as to where build a parking lot in the old city center. I
too was surprised to learn that some of my compatriots took a civil
right as a globally free Internet for granted.
>> The thought had not even occurred to them why a Facebook or non-Chinese
>> Google could be "dangerous" in the eyes of the regime.
> Anything that they don't understand can be dangerous to them.
That much they (the government) understand that in a Facebook there are
"1 million people against Tienanmen massacre 1989" groups etc. I
understand (but don't approve of) perfectly why they don't want their
citizens taking part of that.
Maybe in our lifetime we will see somebody in the CP of China a top
leader who thinks this is depressing, and that they need their Glasnost.
--
Anton
vello
eliminate potential gorbachew's inside their party leadership :-)
Dmitry
> of life east of the iron Curtain were frequent on our television. In
> particular I remember a scene of a passed out (or dead?) dissident being
> dragged through a corridor in a KGB facility. He did not look too
> different from the guy in my mirror. I almost puked when I saw what had
> been done to the poor human being.
Yes. I know many stories directly from people who suffered various
kinds of abuse by "milicija"[police] and KGB in pre-Gorbachov's
period.
> >> The fact that Russia has not gone the Beijing path regarding the
> >> internet gives that country plenty of hope. I have had friends visiting
> >> China and cursing that they can't use normal internet services like
> >> Facebook during their stay. Many take these freedoms for granted and are
> >> really surprised when they learn that these services are unavailable.
> > Yes. I have the same reports from people who visit China and Chinese
> > people who visit me here. One Chinese guy said that this is the
> > weakeness of their Communist government.
>
> The weird thing is that some ordinary westerners don't know that the
> Peoples Republic Of China is a police state. Some go "what???" when they
> learn that they cannot log in on Facebook or search with Google on the
> laptop they have brought with them on their trip to China. In a Beijing
> or Shanghai they see the material wealth and economic freedom, but they
> don't realize that while business is free flow of information is not.
Similarly, when I tried to talk to Chinese guys about what has just
happened in Tibet (it was at the time of the events) they didn't have
a clue what I was talking about. Their media doesn't tell them these
things.
> The tourist that has never himself lived in a police state can not
> picture himself that in another country it is forbidden to log on
> Facebook or demonstrate in front of the town hall for even the most
> innocent thing as to where build a parking lot in the old city center. I
> too was surprised to learn that some of my compatriots took a civil
> right as a globally free Internet for granted.
I think it is normal. For most people - if you live in a "normal"
part of the world you expect the rest of the world to be "normal" too.
> >> The thought had not even occurred to them why a Facebook or non-Chinese
> >> Google could be "dangerous" in the eyes of the regime.
> > Anything that they don't understand can be dangerous to them.
>
> That much they (the government) understand that in a Facebook there are
> "1 million people against Tienanmen massacre 1989" groups etc. I
> understand (but don't approve of) perfectly why they don't want their
> citizens taking part of that.
>
> Maybe in our lifetime we will see somebody in the CP of China a top
> leader who thinks this is depressing, and that they need their Glasnost.
Yes, they would benefit from some sort of Chinese Gorbachov.
> Anton
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> Dmitry kirjoitti:
>
> > On 10 Nov, 21:54, Anton <anton.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H0UMmsyZdk&feature=related
> > I've seen it some time ago. Very brave guy. Good man.
> > At least he was just sacked, back in Sovok he would face much more
> > serious consequences for such action.
>
> No doubt that would be the case. I think it is almost a miracle that
> people have managed to survive mentally in such a society that is so
> hostile towards normal bahaviour of our species.
>
What is "normal bahaviour of our species", Anton? How did our
ancestors behave? For example, until recently, human slavery was
considered perfectly normal and commendable. Read about my own
ancestors and their slaves in the Bible. Greek democracies were full
of slaves. Some countries had slavery even in the second half of the
19th century and still called themselves "democratic" and even claimed
that "all men are created equal'.
Anton
>>> On 10 Nov, 21:54, Anton <anton.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H0UMmsyZdk&feature=related
>>> I've seen it some time ago. Very brave guy. Good man.
>>> At least he was just sacked, back in Sovok he would face much more
>>> serious consequences for such action.
>> No doubt that would be the case. I think it is almost a miracle that
>> people have managed to survive mentally in such a society that is so
>> hostile towards normal bahaviour of our species.
> What is "normal bahaviour of our species", Anton?
Freedom of enterprise, for instance. It has existed in all forms of
societies of mankind - except communism. Humans also have a tendency to
form all kinds of social structures, be it a religion, a charity
organization, sports club or a big band. In communism all this was
dictated from above.
> How did our
> ancestors behave? For example, until recently, human slavery was
> considered perfectly normal and commendable.
In some circles. Others did not, and openly challenged that view.
--
Anton
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
Anton, our species spent hundreds of thousands of years living in the
African savannah and in caves. The normal bahaviour of our species is
something that we don't want to repeat in the highly evolved modern
society.
Anton
Achievements of "highly evolved modern society", in the sense that
modern = an epoch of a few centuries: colonization, destruction of all
existing culture on entire continents (americas), industrialized
genocide (3rd Reich), dismantling of society and turning half of two
continents to a prison (USSR, China etc), nuclear weapons, having the
knowledge and resources of feeding the entire planet and treat most
diseases but lacking the will to do so, global destruction of the
environment.
What cave men were up to was peanuts.
--
Anton
Anton
Achievements of "highly evolved modern society", in the sense that
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
>>>>>> managed to survive mentally in such a society that is so
>>>>>> hostile towards normal bahaviour of our species.
So, when you wrote about "a society that is so hostile towards normal
bahaviour of our species", you meant to say that the normal society is
that of a cave man?! Surely you didn't mean that, did you?
Anton
> On Nov 23, 7:54 am, Anton <anton.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr. kirjoitti:
>> Achievements of "highly evolved modern society", in the sense that
>> modern = an epoch of a few centuries: colonization, destruction of all
>> existing culture on entire continents (americas), industrialized
>> genocide (3rd Reich), dismantling of society and turning half of two
>> continents to a prison (USSR, China etc), nuclear weapons, having the
>> knowledge and resources of feeding the entire planet and treat most
>> diseases but lacking the will to do so, global destruction of the
>> environment.
>> What cave men were up to was peanuts.
> So, when you wrote about "a society that is so hostile towards normal
> bahaviour of our species", you meant to say that the normal society is
> that of a cave man?! Surely you didn't mean that, did you?
A normal society where social activity is allowed to form naturally and
where also authorities have a (somewhat) respectful position towards the
population.
For example: a simple thing as to talk to whoever you want, about
whatever you want, whenever you want. Form relationships, personal and
other ones, like business relationships (private enterprise after all is
as old as humanity). Quite basic, natural stuff for the (modern) human
being.
Of course societies and different institutions throughout history have
to varying degrees made attempts to restrict all of these before, but it
is apparent that the Soviet system took the concept of "control", at the
expense of the human, to a whole new level.
In short: being in jail is not a normal state. Of course humanity has
always had prisoners and slaves, but keeping the whole population in
jail is not my idea of normal.
--
Anton
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr. kirjoitti:
>
> > On Nov 23, 7:54 am, Anton <anton.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr. kirjoitti:
> >> Achievements of "highly evolved modern society", in the sense that
> >> modern = an epoch of a few centuries: colonization, destruction of all
> >> existing culture on entire continents (americas), industrialized
> >> genocide (3rd Reich), dismantling of society and turning half of two
> >> continents to a prison (USSR, China etc), nuclear weapons, having the
> >> knowledge and resources of feeding the entire planet and treat most
> >> diseases but lacking the will to do so, global destruction of the
> >> environment.
> >> What cave men were up to was peanuts.
> > So, when you wrote about "a society that is so hostile towards normal
> > bahaviour of our species", you meant to say that the normal society is
> > that of a cave man?! Surely you didn't mean that, did you?
>
> A normal society where social activity is allowed to form naturally and
> where also authorities have a (somewhat) respectful position towards the
> population.
>
Every culture has its own idea of what is "natural" and what isn't.
For example, as we all painfully know by now, what is"natural" in the
American culture - isn't in the Arab culture, and vice versa.
>
> For example: a simple thing as to talk to whoever you want, about
> whatever you want, whenever you want.
>
Are you saying that in modern Russia, you cannot to whoever you want,
about whatever you want, whenever you want?
>
> Form relationships, personal and
> other ones, like business relationships (private enterprise after all is
> as old as humanity). Quite basic, natural stuff for the (modern) human
> being.
>
Are you saying that in modern Russia, there are no private
enterprises? have you been hibernating since 1987?
And why do you think that the life the prehistoric men was full of
private enterprise? Wasn't all property tribal? in fact, wasn't the
entire mentality tribal? There was very little freedom for individual
pursuits, was there?
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080928084147AATiP6n
All pre-historic tribes started out as socialist. The group would work
together to gather food, hunt, make clothes, and they would share
things.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_communism
The model of primitive communism applies to early human societies
because hunter-gatherer societies had no stratification order and did
not create surplus.[3] Furthermore primitive societies may have
contained all of the features presently associated with the goals of
"communism".
In a primitive communist society, all able bodied persons would have
engaged in obtaining food, and everyone would share in what was
produced by hunting and gathering. There would be almost no private
property, other than articles of clothing and similar personal items,
because primitive society produced no surplus; what was produced was
quickly consumed. The few things that existed for any length of time
(tools, housing) were held communally.[4] There would have been no
state.
>
> Of course societies and different institutions throughout history have
> to varying degrees made attempts to restrict all of these before,
>
Well, the very concept of a "state" and a "government" is not normal
for our species, is it?
As the American libertarians say: "Ask not what the government can do
for you. Ask what the government can do TO you".
>
> but it
> is apparent that the Soviet system took the concept of "control", at the
> expense of the human, to a whole new level.
>
But you were talking about modern times, weren't you? As in:
>
> I think it is almost a miracle that
> people have managed to survive mentally
> in such a society that is so
> hostile towards normal bahaviour of our species.
>
Or did you mean to write ".. a society that WAS so hostile..."?
In any case, the Soviet society was probably closer to the pre-
historic tribal society than a capitalist society is.
>
> In short: being in jail is not a normal state. Of course humanity has
> always had prisoners and slaves, but keeping the whole population in
> jail is not my idea of normal.
>
You have a wrong idea of what the life in modern Russia is like, of
what the life in the USSR (after 1953) was like, and what the life of
the primitive hunter-gatherer tribes was like. I assure you that there
was more individual property in the USSR than in the tribal
"societies".
Anton
> You have a wrong idea of what the life in modern Russia is like, of
Hold on a minute! This wasn't about modern Russia. I discussed the
"Soviet times" part with Dmitry.
--
Anton
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
You are right. I didn't pay enough attention. I thought you were
talking about that cop that challenged Putin. I apologise and say in
the immortal words of Emily Litella: "Oh, that's very
different ...Never mind.". :-)
Dmitry
> stand up for countries?
Gender makes no difference for such positions. Besides, even Margy
Thatcher was not as bad as many male leaders in her time.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> On 15 Nov, 22:49, Anton <anton.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Dmitry kirjoitti:
>
> > > On 10 Nov, 21:54, Anton <anton.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H0UMmsyZdk&feature=related
> > > I've seen it some time ago. Very brave guy. Good man.
> > > At least he was just sacked, back in Sovok he would face much more
> > > serious consequences for such action.
>
> > No doubt that would be the case. I think it is almost a miracle that
> > people have managed to survive mentally in such a society that is so
> > hostile towards normal bahaviour of our species.
>
> It is due to the difference in understanding what "normality" is. I
> knew many people who were locked up in mental hospitals for not
> fitting in Soviet mentality framework. In some parts of USSR you
> could be diagnosed with schizophrenia just because of wrong
> hairstyle. Compulsory treatment in those institutions was rather
> brutal and in some cases involved electric-shock and insulin therapies
> (it was believed by Soviet science that these treatments can cure
> schizophrenia). Many perfectly normal people had to go through being
> locked up (Soviet mental hospitals were very much prison-like places),
> being drugged and in some cases physically tortured. For most people
> the sentence was between 4 and 6 months (depending on diagnosis) and
> more if they re-offend (e.g. grown their hair again).
>
Dmitry, are you sure that many people were put in mental wards for
innocent actions like wearing long hair? I have never heard of that.
My family was in the inner dissident circles, and our knowledge was
that such "treatment" was applied only to real hard-core dissidents.
And even with hard-core dissidents, this treatment was the last resort
measure and numbered in the hundreds (or a few thousands) total for
the entire USSR over several decades. The highest claimed entire
total I have ever heard was 10 thousand.
In my entire life, I have never heard of any friend of a friend of a
friend or any "real life" person ever being forcibly confined to a
mental hospital at all, even for real mental illness, although one of
my aunts' husbands voluntarily checked into one when he couldn't cope
with her untimely death. I also heard of people going to a hospital
for a week or two for alcoholism. I also met Vladimir Bukovsky in 1983
(we even watched the Brezhnev funeral together on American TV), who
had indeed been horribly abused by the psychiatric system for his hard-
core dissident activity in the 1970s and was freed and exiled from
USSR in exchange for Luis Carvalan.
Many young people around me wore long hair, and the punishment for
them was as follows: once every couple of months, our school principal
stood near the school entrance door in the morning and sent away all
long-haired boys to the barbers. "And don't come back until your hair
is normal!".
Dmitry
> innocent actions like wearing long hair? I have never heard of that.
> My family was in the inner dissident circles, and our knowledge was
> that such "treatment" was applied only to real hard-core dissidents.
> And even with hard-core dissidents, this treatment was the last resort
> measure and numbered in the hundreds (or a few thousands) total for
> the entire USSR over several decades. The highest claimed entire
> total I have ever heard was 10 thousand.
Of course I'm sure, I personally knew many people from all over USSR
who went through this. I can't claim any statistics because there
were no surveys on the subject -))
> In my entire life, I have never heard of any friend of a friend of a
> friend or any "real life" person ever being forcibly confined to a
> mental hospital at all, even for real mental illness, although one of
> my aunts' husbands voluntarily checked into one when he couldn't cope
> with her untimely death.
Most people didn't know of such things as they were never "publicised"
in Soviet media. You can't possibly know everything what was
happening in Soviet Union. Such knowledge depends on what kind of
people you know. One didn't have to be a hard-core dissident to
experience the abuse.
> I also heard of people going to a hospital
> for a week or two for alcoholism. I also met Vladimir Bukovsky in 1983
> (we even watched the Brezhnev funeral together on American TV), who
> had indeed been horribly abused by the psychiatric system for his hard-
> core dissident activity in the 1970s and was freed and exiled from
> USSR in exchange for Luis Carvalan.
>
> Many young people around me wore long hair, and the punishment for
> them was as follows: once every couple of months, our school principal
> stood near the school entrance door in the morning and sent away all
> long-haired boys to the barbers. "And don't come back until your hair
> is normal!".
Exactly this happened to me many times -))))). But it became more
serious when I left the school. Mind you, in places like Riga, Moscow
and Piter it wasn't as bad as in some other parts of USSR.
vello
I remember she was called "a sole European leader with balls" back
then :-)
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
But you yourself lived in Riga. How did you hear about all this?
Dmitry
Her other nickname was "the iron lady" -))
Dmitry
Riga wasn't an exception. Few of my friends in Riga were taken to
mental hospital by force and suffered "medical" abuse there. I've
been there too, but thanks to the doctor in my ward (as a side note -
he was a Jew who later suffered from anti-Jews campaign of Soviet
government), I wasn't drugged, "electrified", "insulined" and got away
with only two weeks sentence.
Apart from Riga, I had many friends in other parts of USSR. Most
horror stories came from them.
I have traveled a bit and lots of people came to Latvia and stayed
with me. And it was quite common to share the experiences in the
circle of people who trust each other. I've heard lots of various
stories including mental institutions, KGB, 30 days in police station
cell (they take passport off you and keep you there because you have
no passport), "triperbars" as the next step when 30 days run out and
many more.
Very close friend of mine from Riga has traveled a lot and has
experienced all of these things. He has written about some of his
experiences that appeared in his "samizdat" (initially hand written).
One of them appears in one of his Yasnaya Polyana issues, but I can't
remember in which issue. Try typing "Georgij Mejtin Jasnaja Poljana"
in Cyrillic font in Google - you may find that memoir??? (let me know
if you do) At the end of the story he says that he forgives all of
these people who harmed him, and this was one of the things that KGB
officers, some time later, interrogating him in Riga couldn't
understand - how dare you to forgive police officers (they did the
right thing and don't require forgiveness). BTW, Georgij is a Jew by
ethnicity who always followed teachings of Jesus, but never called
himself Christian. The most admirable features of this man are that
he always do what his "sovjest'" tells him to do and his tolerance
towards anyone. Many people considered him as saint. I still
consider him as my "guru".
Both, you and me, had different experiences of living in the USSR.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> > But you yourself lived in Riga. How did you hear about all this?
>
> Riga wasn't an exception. Few of my friends in Riga were taken to
> mental hospital by force and suffered "medical" abuse there. I've
> been there too, but thanks to the doctor in my ward (as a side note -
> he was a Jew who later suffered from anti-Jews campaign of Soviet
> government), I wasn't drugged, "electrified", "insulined" and got away
> with only two weeks sentence.
> Apart from Riga, I had many friends in other parts of USSR. Most
> horror stories came from them.
> I have traveled a bit and lots of people came to Latvia and stayed
> with me. And it was quite common to share the experiences in the
> circle of people who trust each other. I've heard lots of various
> stories including mental institutions, KGB, 30 days in police station
> cell (they take passport off you and keep you there because you have
> no passport), "triperbars" as the next step when 30 days run out and
> many more.
> Very close friend of mine from Riga has traveled a lot and has
> experienced all of these things. He has written about some of his
> experiences that appeared in his "samizdat" (initially hand written).
> One of them appears in one of his Yasnaya Polyana issues, but I can't
> remember in which issue. Try typing "Georgij Mejtin Jasnaja Poljana"
> in Cyrillic font in Google - you may find that memoir??? (let me know
> if you do)
>
Gladly:
zpalochka.narod.ru/yasna_1.doc
J. Anderson
"Dmitry" <dmitrijs...@inbox.lv> wrote in message
news:3e7a239b-924f-44fb...@m25g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
> Her other nickname was "the iron lady" -))
That's probably why she had rust in her knickers.
And I don't mean her contemporary Mathias
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathias_Rust).
anita
Thanks for sharing this.
Dmitry
>
> http://www.google.com/search?q=+%D0%B3%D0%B5%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%B8%...
>
> zpalochka.narod.ru/yasna_1.doc
Thank you, but the story I mentioned is spread across issues 9-10
(part 1) and 11 (part 2). The piece is called Dva Leta. I found issue
11 zpalochka.narod.ru/Yas.Pol_11.doc , but couldn't find the first
part (issue 9-10) on the net (may be you can???). Read the second
part first (pages 39-61) and let me know if you are interested in
reading the first part. I have hard copies, so I can scan and send
you the first part by e-mail (or rather multiple e-mails as it is
quite lengthy). I can give you my word (if it worth anything to you)
that every part of his story is the plain truth. This man doesn't
lie. Even in extreme situations like when during KGB interrogations
they show photographs ans ask if you know these people he said: "my
concience doesn't allow me to answer this question", instead of usual
"no" in order to save your skin (like I and many others did). Well,
hopefully you will see it when you read it.