Hmm - the Chinese are planning...
henry alminas
.... ahead - it seems. Putting up
buildings to their own tastes
for the rapidly approaching
colonization of the whole
"matushka" (not just the east
as is already happening).
I must assume that is also why they
are holding those joint military
exercises with their future colony.
This provides them with a good
chance to evaluate just how sad
the Russian military is - in fact.
Best - - Henry
From: RIA/Novosti
By: Alexander Yurov
RIA Novosti political commentator
19/ 08/ 2005
Foreigners rebuilding Moscow
MOSCOW
--In Moscow, a Chinese company is gearing up to build
the highest edifice in Europe, the Federation Tower.
The project is interesting not only because of the size of
the building, but because this will be the first time that
Russian and Chinese construction firms will work together.
The skyscraper will be built as part of the Federation
complex at the future Moscow-City business center. While
all press attention is on this particular project, it is clearly
just the beginning.
The trailblazing company involved in the Federation
project is China State Construction Engineering Corp.
(CSCEC), one of China's biggest construction firms.
Since it was set up in 1982, CSCEC has concluded
contracts worth a total of $77.6 billion, of which 30%
have been international deals. CSCEC's turnover is
$66 billion.
The Federation complex will comprise two towers,
with offices, apartments, hotels and a retail/entertainment
center. CSCEC has committed to build an 85-storey
building with a total area of 340,000 m? within just
two years.
Analysts from the Russian company Vesco Realty are
certain that if the project goes well for CSCEC, then
other Chinese construction companies will quickly
follow suit. The Russian press has also confirmed that
while the deal between CSCEC and Mirax City
(the Russian company and official owner of the
Federation project) is the first of its kind, it will not
be the last one.
Chinese and Russian companies will soon team up
to build another two high-rises in Moscow and
St. Petersburg.
Foreign real estate developers have good reason
to be interested in the Russian market. The program
New Moscow Ring has been underway for several
years now, under which it is planned to construct
almost 200 buildings, each more than 30-storeys high.
The buildings are to be erected throughout the city.
The preliminary budget is $2.5 billion. This means that
Moscow has both the will to build and the sites to
build on.
In addition, a new trend emerged in the first half of 2005.
It is becoming more and more difficult for the developers
to find large vacant sites for the construction in
downtown Moscow. The solution is seen to lie in
transforming old industrial areas into elite business
centers a bit farther out of the city center.
Moreover, it is not just the availability of vacant sites that
is attracting foreigners to Russia. The Russian office space
market has been growing for a number of years. Although
4% more office space was made available in the first half
of 2005 than in 2004, the share of vacant premises keep
dropping. In early 2005, vacancy rates for high-end office
space were just 3.1%, and by late July they had fallen to
2.4%. At the same time, vacancy rates for less expensive
office space fell to 6.4%. Furthermore, offices for sale
are becoming more expensive.
As a result, in the first half of 2005, big players in the
market for planning, designing and managing high-rise
office buildings Hellmuth-Obata-Kassabaum (HOK),
Skidmore and Swanke Hayden Connel Architects
appeared in Russia. Naturally, they were followed by
foreign construction companies, including Chinese
ones.
Mikhail Karapetov, spokesman for Vesco Group,
said the arrival of well-known foreign firms was
a sign of the profound changes that had taken place
in the Moscow commercial real estate market. He
believes the market has become far more attractive.
Foreign firms trying to enter the Russian market are
even resorting to using the "administrative resource,"
that is, political connections. Karapetov says that the
Chinese government played a role in the successful
negotiations between CSCEC and the Russians on
building the Federation complex's prestigious tower.
lora...@cs.com
henry alminas wrote:
> For educational purposes only:
>
> .... ahead - it seems. Putting up
> buildings to their own tastes
> for the rapidly approaching
> colonization of the whole
> "matushka" (not just the east
> as is already happening).
>
> I must assume that is also why they
> are holding those joint military
> exercises with their future colony.
> This provides them with a good
> chance to evaluate just how sad
> the Russian military is - in fact.
>
> Best - - Henry
>
>
> From: RIA/Novosti
> By: Alexander Yurov
> RIA Novosti political commentator
> 19/ 08/ 2005
>
> Foreigners rebuilding Moscow
The chinese will probably install spying equipement in those buldings
for future use - just like russian 'workers' did when they assisted in
the construction of the building meant for the US embassy.
vienal...@hotmail.com
going to take whatever they want from the Russians. Oil from the
"Russian" oil fields? If the Chinese need oil, they'll take it. Not ask
or negotiate, take. The Russians are going to agree, in a flurry of
signings and declarations of cooperation.
The Russian response to being in the current world of markets,
knowledge and competition? War games with the Chinese Communists. A
ridiculous tribe.
R.
vkar...@yahoo.com
> For educational purposes only:
>
> .... ahead - it seems. Putting up
> buildings to their own tastes
> for the rapidly approaching
> colonization of the whole
> "matushka" (not just the east
> as is already happening).
>
> I must assume that is also why they
> are holding those joint military
> exercises with their future colony.
> This provides them with a good
> chance to evaluate just how sad
> the Russian military is - in fact.
>
> Best - - Henry
>
>
> From: RIA/Novosti
> By: Alexander Yurov
> RIA Novosti political commentator
> 19/ 08/ 2005
>
> --In Moscow, a Chinese company is gearing up to build
> the highest edifice in Europe, the Federation Tower.
>
> The project is interesting not only because of the size of
> the building, but because this will be the first time that
> Russian and Chinese construction firms will work together.
>
> The skyscraper will be built as part of the Federation
> complex at the future Moscow-City business center. While
> all press attention is on this particular project, it is clearly
> just the beginning.
>
You shouldn't be jealous. Riga still has its farmers' market. Plus
several buildings more than 3 stories high.
vkar...@yahoo.com
> > By: Alexander Yurov
> > RIA Novosti political commentator
> > 19/ 08/ 2005
> >
> > Foreigners rebuilding Moscow
>
> > with offices, apartments, hotels and a retail/entertainment
> > center.
>
> for future use
>
Where? Apartments or hotels? Or both?
What for? To watch women undress? LOL!
vkar...@yahoo.com
soc.culture.baltics for providing a great forum for learning about and
discussing the life in Russia. Look, soc.culture.russian has no good
discussions about Russia. But soc.culture.baltics has NOTHING else but
Russian internal affairs on its mind. Open any thread at random - and
you will see a discusison of Rusisan internal affairs. Thank god,
nobody here at soc.culture.baltics cares about things like Baltic
affairs and culture. This is great. Keep it up, guys.
vienal...@hotmail.com wrote:
About Moscow becoming the skycraper business capital of the World with
the help of some Chinese contruction company:
>
> At the risk of repeating a post of three minutes ago: The Chinese are
> going to take whatever they want from the Russians. Oil from the
> "Russian" oil fields? If the Chinese need oil, they'll take it.
>
Aren't they already "taking" it? At about $55 per barrel. A bargain.
And in return, they are buiding the Rusisan infrastructure.
>
> Not ask
> or negotiate, take. The Russians are going to agree, in a flurry of
> signings and declarations of cooperation.
>
Yep. Anybody, who is willing to take Russian oil and gas at market
prices - can have it. The more - the merrier.
Except for the Latvbians, who get it from Russia at subsidized prices.
But probably for not much longer.
>
> The Russian response to being in the current world of markets,
> knowledge and competition? War games with the Chinese Communists. A
> ridiculous tribe.
>
God. That news about Russia building tallest skyscrapers must have
really jerked your chain. Wher does Rusisa find money, when Latvia is
suffering economically? High oil prices, my friend. And they will only
go up from here. Weep, my friends, weep. Poor slobs, whose well-being
is determined by whether Russia is doing bad or not.
Vladimir Makarenko
LOL.
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
> First of all, let me express gratitude to all you people from
> soc.culture.baltics for providing a great forum for learning about and
> discussing the life in Russia. Look, soc.culture.russian has no good
> discussions about Russia. But soc.culture.baltics has NOTHING else but
> Russian internal affairs on its mind. Open any thread at random - and
> you will see a discusison of Rusisan internal affairs. Thank god,
> nobody here at soc.culture.baltics cares about things like Baltic
> affairs and culture. This is great. Keep it up, guys.
>
>
> vienal...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> About Moscow becoming the skycraper business capital of the World with
> the help of some Chinese contruction company:
>
>
>>At the risk of repeating a post of three minutes ago: The Chinese are
>>going to take whatever they want from the Russians. Oil from the
>>"Russian" oil fields? If the Chinese need oil, they'll take it.
>>
>
>
> Aren't they already "taking" it? At about $55 per barrel. A bargain.
> And in return, they are buiding the Rusisan infrastructure.
Don't be so cruel - he doesn't yet reached the letter "o" in his
"Survival in outback"
>
>
>> Not ask
>>or negotiate, take. The Russians are going to agree, in a flurry of
>>signings and declarations of cooperation.
>>
>
>
> Yep. Anybody, who is willing to take Russian oil and gas at market
> prices - can have it. The more - the merrier.
>
> Except for the Latvbians, who get it from Russia at subsidized prices.
> But probably for not much longer.
For much longer. Russian philanthropy isn't equal to EU.
>
>
>>The Russian response to being in the current world of markets,
>>knowledge and competition? War games with the Chinese Communists. A
>>ridiculous tribe.
>>
>
>
> God. That news about Russia building tallest skyscrapers must have
> really jerked your chain. Wher does Rusisa find money, when Latvia is
> suffering economically? High oil prices, my friend. And they will only
> go up from here. Weep, my friends, weep. Poor slobs, whose well-being
> is determined by whether Russia is doing bad or not.
>
It is not really high oil prices: Intel moved his development dep to
Russia as well as Boeing. As Intel's guy said - "we go where brains are".
VM.
lora...@cs.com
vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> First of all, let me express gratitude to all you people from
> soc.culture.baltics for providing a great forum for learning about and
> discussing the life in Russia. Look, soc.culture.russian has no good
> discussions about Russia. But soc.culture.baltics has NOTHING else but
> Russian internal affairs on its mind. Open any thread at random - and
> you will see a discusison of Rusisan internal affairs. Thank god,
> nobody here at soc.culture.baltics cares about things like Baltic
> affairs and culture. This is great. Keep it up, guys.
Izz no problem. Since people in russia can no longer comment of what is
going on there, it's the least we can do for them.
> vienal...@hotmail.com wrote:
> About Moscow becoming the skycraper business capital of the World with
> the help of some Chinese contruction company:
> > At the risk of repeating a post of three minutes ago: The Chinese are
> > going to take whatever they want from the Russians. Oil from the
> > "Russian" oil fields? If the Chinese need oil, they'll take it.
> Aren't they already "taking" it? At about $55 per barrel. A bargain.
> And in return, they are buiding the Rusisan infrastructure.
Without the excess huge oil profits made over the last year, the
russian GDP would have been negative(!). Can you imagine what is going
to happen to the russian economy now that they have made alternative
fuels price competetive?
> > Not ask
> > or negotiate, take. The Russians are going to agree, in a flurry of
> > signings and declarations of cooperation.
> >
>
> Yep. Anybody, who is willing to take Russian oil and gas at market
> prices - can have it. The more - the merrier.
No, thanks. We'll get better quality oil from the Caspian - with no
kremlin strings attached.
> Except for the Latvbians, who get it from Russia at subsidized prices.
> But probably for not much longer.
What? Have the russian oil oligarchs finally figured out that they were
out-smarted by Latvian businesses?
> > The Russian response to being in the current world of markets,
> > knowledge and competition? War games with the Chinese Communists. A
> > ridiculous tribe.
>
> God. That news about Russia building tallest skyscrapers must have
> really jerked your chain. Wher does Rusisa find money, when Latvia is
> suffering economically?
Latvia is not 'suffering'. Unless you consider that have an economy
outperforming russian GDP by 2.5% is 'suferring'. Latvian had the best
GDP growth rate in all of Europe and the EU last year!
> High oil prices, my friend. And they will only
> go up from here. Weep, my friends, weep. Poor slobs, whose well-being
> is determined by whether Russia is doing bad or not.
Fool, go bathe in that high sulfur russian sludge. Take a long swim. By
the time you climb out, you'll discover alternate energy sources having
become economically viable and capable of replacing russian (and other
foreign) fuel stock.
But I hope russia still relies upon that oil income, anyway. And they
will. It's the best thing going in russia, and the powers that be will
try to keep the economy centered on it.
Want to guess what will happen, eventually, due to that enforced
addiction?
vkar...@yahoo.com
lora...@cs.com wrote:
> vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > First of all, let me express gratitude to all you people from
> > soc.culture.baltics for providing a great forum for learning about and
> > discussing the life in Russia. Look, soc.culture.russian has no good
> > discussions about Russia. But soc.culture.baltics has NOTHING else but
> > Russian internal affairs on its mind. Open any thread at random - and
> > you will see a discusison of Rusisan internal affairs. Thank god,
> > nobody here at soc.culture.baltics cares about things like Baltic
> > affairs and culture. This is great. Keep it up, guys.
>
> Izz no problem. Since people in russia can no longer comment of what is
> going on there, it's the least we can do for them.
>
> > vienal...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > About Moscow becoming the skycraper business capital of the World with
> > the help of some Chinese contruction company:
>
> > > At the risk of repeating a post of three minutes ago: The Chinese are
> > > going to take whatever they want from the Russians. Oil from the
> > > "Russian" oil fields? If the Chinese need oil, they'll take it.
>
> > Aren't they already "taking" it? At about $55 per barrel. A bargain.
> > And in return, they are buiding the Rusisan infrastructure.
>
> Without the excess huge oil profits made over the last year, the
> russian GDP would have been negative(!).
>
Negative Gross Domestic Product, hah? An amusing concept... I can see
why you were excused form taking math from 3rd grade on.
>
> Can you imagine what is going
> to happen to the russian economy now that they have made alternative
> fuels price competetive?
>
"They" claim to have "price competetive alternative fuels" now? How is
that different from them claiming to have "price competetive
alternative fuels" for the past 70 years?
Which gas station do you get your "alternative fuels" gasoline from?
Howmuch do you pay for a gallon? $50? $100?
Should I notify Saudi Arabian princes, so that they start preparing for
the poor house? :-)
What a genius...
>
> > > Not ask
> > > or negotiate, take. The Russians are going to agree, in a flurry of
> > > signings and declarations of cooperation.
> > >
> >
> > Yep. Anybody, who is willing to take Russian oil and gas at market
> > prices - can have it. The more - the merrier.
>
> No, thanks. We'll get better quality oil from the Caspian - with no
> kremlin strings attached.
>
> > Except for the Latvbians, who get it from Russia at subsidized prices.
> > But probably for not much longer.
>
> What? Have the russian oil oligarchs finally figured out that they were
> out-smarted by Latvian businesses?
>
What do private "russian oil oligarchs" have to do with this? The
Rusisan government had and still has a special policy of selling
gas/oil to its best friends at cheap prices. For the last 13 years, the
Russian government has included Latvia among this list of its best
firends. In return, Latvia has been shitting on Russia. A one-sided
firendship can't last forever. Soon Russia will cross Latvia out of its
list of best firends and will start charging full price for its
products.
>
> > > The Russian response to being in the current world of markets,
> > > knowledge and competition? War games with the Chinese Communists. A
> > > ridiculous tribe.
> >
> > God. That news about Russia building tallest skyscrapers must have
> > really jerked your chain. Wher does Rusisa find money, when Latvia is
> > suffering economically?
>
> Latvia is not 'suffering'. Unless you consider that have an economy
> outperforming russian GDP by 2.5% is 'suferring'. Latvian had the best
> GDP growth rate in all of Europe and the EU last year!
>
Isn't your statement about EU redundant here? EU is a subset of Europe,
for your information.
CIA - The World Factbook
GDP - real growth rate:
Latvia - 7.6% (2004 est.)
Russia - 6.7% (2004 est.)
Lithuania - 6.6% (2004 est.)
United Kingdom - 3.2% (2004 est.)
So, Russia must have the second highest GDP growth rate in all of
Europe?
In any case, if Russia stops subsidizing Latvia's energy purchases and
stops sending its products through Latvia, wouldn't Latvia's 7.6%
growth become a -27.6% drop?
>
> > High oil prices, my friend. And they will only
> > go up from here. Weep, my friends, weep. Poor slobs, whose well-being
> > is determined by whether Russia is doing bad or not.
>
> Fool, go bathe in that high sulfur russian sludge.
>
I live in USA, genius. But I do love sulfur spas, thank you. You should
try one too. Will do wonders for your nervous breakdown.
>
> Take a long swim. By
> the time you climb out, you'll discover alternate energy sources having
> become economically viable and capable of replacing russian (and other
> foreign) fuel stock.
>
Do you actually belive this nonsense or have you been inhaling some
"alternate energy sources"?
>
> But I hope russia still relies upon that oil income, anyway. And they
> will. It's the best thing going in russia, and the powers that be will
> try to keep the economy centered on it.
>
Like OPEC countries, Russia will use the huge oil profits to build its
infrastructure and new businesses.
>
> Want to guess what will happen, eventually, due to that enforced
> addiction?
>
The addiction to oil in Europe, USA and Asia is not "enforced". It is
natural and will continue until the World uses up all the oil. But by
that time, Russia will have built a nice economy from its oil profits.
vienal...@hotmail.com
several buildings more than 3 stories high."
We're a backward people. It would be best for sophisticated Russians to
piss off Home.
You're right.
R.
vienal...@hotmail.com
Neanderthals with delusions of grandeur fading with each halving of
your population.
Simple Dopes. That's all.
R.
vienal...@hotmail.com
Russia and Justice?
I've started a fund to help some time ago.
Vanjkaam truukst kaa parasti? We can help.
If you're a Russian in Latvia and Uncomfortable, we can get you Home.
R.
vkar...@yahoo.com
> lora...@cs.com wrote:
> > vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > Without the excess huge oil profits made over the last year, the
> > russian GDP would have been negative(!).
>
> Negative Gross Domestic Product, hah? An amusing concept... I can see
> why you were excused form taking math from 3rd grade on.
>
> >
> > > But probably for not much longer.
> >
> > What? Have the russian oil oligarchs finally figured out that they were
> > out-smarted by Latvian businesses?
>
> What do private "russian oil oligarchs" have to do with this? The
> Rusisan government had and still has a special policy of selling
> gas/oil to its best friends at cheap prices. For the last 13 years, the
> Russian government has included Latvia among this list of its best
> firends. In return, Latvia has been shitting on Russia. A one-sided
> firendship can't last forever. Soon Russia will cross Latvia out of its
> list of best firends and will start charging full price for its
> products.
>
> >
> > outperforming russian GDP by 2.5% is 'suferring'. Latvian had the best
> > GDP growth rate in all of Europe and the EU last year!
>
That's a lie and an invention of yours. Here is an example of a
European country which had a much higher GDP growth last year:
CIA - The World Factbook
GDP - real growth rate:
Latvia - 7.6% (2004 est.)
Ukraine - 12% (2004 est.)
So, you lied.
But to be fair, this is now history. This Ukrainian economic boom
caused a huge concern in USA and Poland, who simply had to stop it: the
pro-Russian and pro-economy government of Yanukovich was swept away by
the Orange Revolution, and the most corrupt members of Kuchma's past
governments Yuschenko and Tymoshenko (both were Kuchma proteges) were
put into power in December 2004. Yuschenko and Tymoshenko (with their
cohorts, of course) immediately proceeded to robbing every little thing
in the Ukrainian economy and putting them into their pockets. However,
the number of robbers was larger than the number of profitable
Ukrainian corporations. Thus, the Yuschenko and Tymoshenko people
couldn't agree how to divide the loot (the Ukrainian economy) between
themselves. As a result, both sides went public, accusing the other
side of unprecedented corruption,. Both sides were right in that
regard, of course. So, Yuschenko rightfully declared that everybody on
his team is a corrupt criminal and that everybody on Tymoshenko's team
is too and fired each and every one (except for the attorney general,
AFAIK). What he forgot to metion ist hat thef ish starts to rot with
the head and that he, Yuschenko, himself is responsible for the
economic crimes committed if not by the Tymoshenko people, whom he had
put into power, but certainly by his own people.
But the Ukrainian economy is in a very bad state now. Which makes
Washington and Warsaw happy: their goal of stopping the Ukrianian
economic boom is achieved.
But there is a negative result: the Orange crooks are discredited, and
the new Ukrianian leaders are expected to be much less pro-NATO and
much more pro-Russian. No wonder the new Prime Minister in his first
speech said about the Russian-Ukrianian relations: "What do you think,
given that I am a true Russian who grew up in the heart of Russia:
Siberia".
Tymoshenko too has suddenly declared herself a Russia-lover and is
trying to form an anti-Yuschenko coalition with the pro-Russian
Yanukovich forces.
In fact, in her post-firing interview, Tymoshenko demonstratively
played with an orange and a blue ribbon, putitng them together for the
camera and saying: "Why didn't we notice before that the orange and
blue ribbons together form the flag of Ukriane?!". AFAIK, blue is the
color of Russia. To be fair, i am not sure if this is what Tymoshenko
actually meant but I think it is. Can anybody else confirm?
God, these people have no shame and no scruples or principles. They
make the previous crook Kuchma look almost statesman-like.
vello
Why you think that Europe is interested in weak Ukraine? Rich Ukraine
would be business partner, weak Ukraine - illegal immigrants, drugs,
prostitution, cry for economical help, political unstabiliy etc. West
is probably not interested in Ukraine too closely tied with Russia
(European stability has based for hundreds of years on idea that no
European country must be too strong in compare with others), but for
sure they are interested in rich and stable Ukraine.
>From Ukrainian wiewpoint partnership with Europe seems more profitable
for me then close ties with Russia. Why? Well one reason is economy -
EU, despite all his problems and bureucracy, works for weaker members.
Ireland, Spain, Greece, Portugal are clear examples, also booming
Baltic economies, moving even faster now then before EU. Why? Coz being
in EU means free ticket to the biggest market in the world, but what is
also important, private money from west are sure now their investments
will not disappear "in waves of darkness of East". With Russia, there
is one big problem - digg in history and find just one real partner or
friend of Russia. For hundreds of years, for Kremlin there was just two
kind of countries in the world - enemies and ...slaves. No real
partners. Despite communist idea they shared, China become an "enemy"
immediately if it was clear that he is too big and strong to be a slave
for Russia. Tito's Yugoslavia wants to be a friend but not slave of
Russia, but result - he was also labeled as "enemy". So "partnership"
with Russia is not an available option for Ukraine - what is available,
is status of Russian satellite state with minimal authonomy. Or
membership in EU what is far from paradise, but you are independent
inside united Europe - EU is about business, not politics.
For price of natural gas, I don't think 20% rise will have strong
effect on Latvian (Estonian, Lithuanian) economy - we pay today much
more then 20% more for ALL energy then we paid three years ago but
economies are booming (don't compare growth % here with Russian ones -
last is based on oil prices, our's is achieved DESPITE rising oil
prices). And for sure Russia must sell his energy for as good price
buyers are willing to pay - it's just business. btw I don't think gas
prices for Baltics have been a bit cheaper due Russia's will to support
our economies - just due logistics and infrastructure existing from
Soviet times it is still cheaper to transport gas to Baltics then to
further West.
lora...@cs.com
vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > Latvia is not 'suffering'. Unless you consider that have an economy
> > > outperforming russian GDP by 2.5% is 'suferring'. Latvian had the best
> > > GDP growth rate in all of Europe and the EU last year!
> >
>
> That's a lie and an invention of yours. Here is an example of a
> European country which had a much higher GDP growth last year:
>
> CIA - The World Factbook
> GDP - real growth rate:
>
> Latvia - 7.6% (2004 est.)
>
> Ukraine - 12% (2004 est.)
>
> So, you lied.
No, you microcephalic moron.
Latvia did in fact have the top GDP growth rate in all of europe and
the EU last year.
And they have done even better through the first two quarters of this
year (still on top).
It's hard to say where you got your *estimates* from - but they don't
conform to factuality anyway - only to your wishful psychosis. (do you
even know what 'estimate' means, po angliskii?)
PS: Russkians will endure a 12.5 % inflation rate this year. This is
probably Bog's punishment for their boyars mongering too much oil.
What this means is that russian pensioners will have to get by on 7.21
usd (adjusted) a month - instead of 8.25 - as was the case last year.
cherni...@hotmail.com
vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> CIA - The World Factbook
> GDP - real growth rate:
>
> Latvia - 7.6% (2004 est.)
>
> Ukraine - 12% (2004 est.)
>
> So, you lied.
>
> But to be fair, this is now history. This Ukrainian economic boom
> caused a huge concern in USA and Poland, who simply had to stop it:
Ukraine's economic growth slowed down; it did not stop. It's projected
at 8% for this year (higher than Russia's?)
> the
> pro-Russian and pro-economy government of Yanukovich was swept away by
> the Orange Revolution, and the most corrupt members of Kuchma's past
> governments Yuschenko and Tymoshenko (both were Kuchma proteges) were
> put into power in December 2004.
???? Those guys actually helped end corruption, thus their dismissal.
Timoshenko is the one who stopped the theft of Russian gas.
> Yuschenko and Tymoshenko (with their
> cohorts, of course) immediately proceeded to robbing every little thing
> in the Ukrainian economy and putting them into their pockets. However,
> the number of robbers was larger than the number of profitable
> Ukrainian corporations.
Any proof of this accusation? I haven't seen any evidence of actual
theft of resources, unlike for example in Kuchma's case (his son-in-law
getting that factory for $800 million, that was assessed at $2
billion). In fact, nothing much was done (other than getting rid of
corrupt traffic cops, resulting in higher accident rates). This is the
cause of the economic slowdown.
> Thus, the Yuschenko and Tymoshenko people
> couldn't agree how to divide the loot (the Ukrainian economy) between
> themselves. As a result, both sides went public, accusing the other
> side of unprecedented corruption,. Both sides were right in that
> regard, of course. So, Yuschenko rightfully declared that everybody on
> his team is a corrupt criminal and that everybody on Tymoshenko's team
> is too and fired each and every one (except for the attorney general,
> AFAIK).
Where did he make such a declaration?
> What he forgot to metion ist hat thef ish starts to rot with
> the head and that he, Yuschenko, himself is responsible for the
> economic crimes committed if not by the Tymoshenko people, whom he had
> put into power, but certainly by his own people.
>
> But the Ukrainian economy is in a very bad state now. Which makes
> Washington and Warsaw happy: their goal of stopping the Ukrianian
> economic boom is achieved.
Again, how is 8% projected growth for the year(4% growth in the first
six months of the year) a "bad state"? And, mind you, none of it is
due to oil money.
France and Germany are supportive of a weak and poor Ukraine (better
than an emerging rival), but a strong Ukrine is in Poland's interest
(Does America care?)
> But there is a negative result: the Orange crooks are discredited, and
> the new Ukrianian leaders are expected to be much less pro-NATO and
> much more pro-Russian. No wonder the new Prime Minister in his first
> speech said about the Russian-Ukrianian relations: "What do you think,
> given that I am a true Russian who grew up in the heart of Russia:
> Siberia".
Nothing wrong with ptching up relations with one's major trading
partner.
> Tymoshenko too has suddenly declared herself a Russia-lover and is
> trying to form an anti-Yuschenko coalition with the pro-Russian
> Yanukovich forces.
Rumors.
> In fact, in her post-firing interview, Tymoshenko demonstratively
> played with an orange and a blue ribbon, putitng them together for the
> camera and saying: "Why didn't we notice before that the orange and
> blue ribbons together form the flag of Ukriane?!". AFAIK, blue is the
> color of Russia. To be fair, i am not sure if this is what Tymoshenko
> actually meant but I think it is. Can anybody else confirm?
Are the Africans still putting heroin into the oranges?
regards,
BM
vkar...@yahoo.com
lora...@cs.com wrote:
> vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > Latvia is not 'suffering'. Unless you consider that have an economy
> > > > outperforming russian GDP by 2.5% is 'suferring'. Latvian had the best
> > > > GDP growth rate in all of Europe and the EU last year!
> > >
> >
> > That's a lie and an invention of yours. Here is an example of a
> > European country which had a much higher GDP growth last year:
> >
> > CIA - The World Factbook
> > GDP - real growth rate:
> >
> > Latvia - 7.6% (2004 est.)
> >
> > Ukraine - 12% (2004 est.)
> >
> > So, you lied.
>
> No, you microcephalic moron. Latvia did in fact have the top GDP growth rate
> in all of europe and the EU last year.
>
Given that the CIA reports a 12% growth for Ukraine vs. a 7.6% growth
for Latvia for last year, there are 3 possibilities:
1. You don't think that Ukraine is in Europe
2. Your intelligence is better than CIA's
3. You don't think that 12 is larger than 7.6
Which is it, genius?
>
> It's hard to say where you got your *estimates* from
>
You mean, you don't understand the phrase "CIA - The World Factbook"?
OK, the CIA stands for the "Central Intelligence Agency". It is a
quite well-known organization, trust me. Look it it up sometime.
Here are the exact links:
For Ukraine:
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/up.html
For Latvia:
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/lg.html
>
> - but they don't
> conform to factuality anyway - only to your wishful psychosis.
>
Oh yes, the CIA and I are all psychotic. And you are the sane one.
Would you care to share with us your own GDP growth numbers for Lativa
and Ukraine for year 2004 and the sources for these numbers? Do they
come from your wet dreams?
>
> And they have done even better through the first two quarters of this
> year (still on top).
>
Exact numberds and sources please.
Former King of Pangea
<vkar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1126558352.8...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> lora...@cs.com wrote:
>> vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> > > > Latvia is not 'suffering'. Unless you consider that have an economy
>> > > > outperforming russian GDP by 2.5% is 'suferring'. Latvian had the
>> > > > best
>> > > > GDP growth rate in all of Europe and the EU last year!
>> > >
>> >
>> > That's a lie and an invention of yours. Here is an example of a
>> > European country which had a much higher GDP growth last year:
>> >
>> > CIA - The World Factbook
>> > GDP - real growth rate:
>> >
>> > Latvia - 7.6% (2004 est.)
>> >
>> > Ukraine - 12% (2004 est.)
>> >
>> > So, you lied.
>>
>> No, you microcephalic moron. Latvia did in fact have the top GDP growth
>> rate
>> in all of europe and the EU last year.
>>
>
> Given that the CIA reports a 12% growth for Ukraine vs. a 7.6% growth
> for Latvia for last year, there are 3 possibilities:
>
> 1. You don't think that Ukraine is in Europe
Geographically it is. Culturally it isn't.
Just as Russia is neither European or Asian, the same goes for Belarus and
Ukraine.
vkar...@yahoo.com
> vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > CIA - The World Factbook
> > GDP - real growth rate:
> >
> > Latvia - 7.6% (2004 est.)
> >
> > Ukraine - 12% (2004 est.)
> >
> > caused a huge concern in USA and Poland, who simply had to stop it:
>
> Ukraine's economic growth slowed down; it did not stop. It's projected
> at 8% for this year (higher than Russia's?)
>
Trust me, given the actions of Tymoshenko and Parashenko (sp.?) in the
last month or so, it will be much lower that 8%. Tymoshenko can't
assault/rob Nikopol Ferrous Alloy Works and Kryvorizhstal without
negative consequences to the economy. The economy can't work under
corruption and robbery.
> > the
> > pro-Russian and pro-economy government of Yanukovich was swept away by
> > the Orange Revolution, and the most corrupt members of Kuchma's past
> > governments Yuschenko and Tymoshenko (both were Kuchma proteges) were
> > put into power in December 2004.
>
> ???? Those guys actually helped end corruption, thus their dismissal.
>
Let me understand what you have just said. Last week, Tymoshenko looked
around and noticed that the corruption in Ukraine no longer existed.
So, she sent her right-hand man Zinchenko to announce his resignation
and to accuse Yuschenko men of unprecedented corruption.
In return, Yuschenko also looked around and also noticed that the
corruption in Ukraine no longer existed. So, he immediately accused
Tymoshenko and his own team of unprecedented corruption and fired them
all.
Is this your version of events? Interesting...
>
> > Yuschenko and Tymoshenko (with their
> > cohorts, of course) immediately proceeded to robbing every little thing
> > in the Ukrainian economy and putting them into their pockets. However,
> > the number of robbers was larger than the number of profitable
> > Ukrainian corporations.
>
> Any proof of this accusation?
>
What are you talking about? That's what Zinchenko, Parashenko,
Yuschenko and many others themselves told us last week.
>
> Any proof of this accusation? I haven't seen any evidence of actual
> theft of resources,
>
I am not talking about natural resources. I am talking about giant
profitable industrial corporations like Nikopol Ferrous Alloy Works and
Kryvorizhstal, which the Tymoshenko and Yuschenko people both tried to
steal from their current owners but couldn't divide between themselves.
>
> France and Germany are supportive of a weak and poor Ukraine (better
> than an emerging rival), but a strong Ukrine is in Poland's interest
>
Total nonsense. Ukraine is an emerging economy and is no threat to the
giants like France and Germany. It compliments them. Moreover, a weak
Ukrianian economy would mean that Western Europe will be flooded with
Ukrainians seeking work.
On the other hand, Poland itself is an emerging economy and is a direct
competitor to Ukraine in every respect, including for example the
influence over Belarus.
Plus don't forget the Polish desire to effectively re-colonize Ukraine,
and you can't colonize a stronger and larger country, can you.
>
> (Does America care?)
>
It cares enough for the US State Department to declare to the
flabbergassed (sp?) journalists: "The last thing we need is a bunch of
Ukrainians running around with guns".
More seriously, a strong Slavic and Greek Orthodox Ukraine is percieved
as a threat to America's New World Order, along with Russia, Belarus
and (former) Yugoslavia.
>
> > But there is a negative result: the Orange crooks are discredited, and
> > the new Ukrianian leaders are expected to be much less pro-NATO and
> > much more pro-Russian. No wonder the new Prime Minister in his first
> > speech said about the Russian-Ukrianian relations: "What do you think,
> > given that I am a true Russian who grew up in the heart of Russia:
> > Siberia".
>
> Nothing wrong with patching up relations with one's major trading
> partner.
>
True. Plus don't forget the religious and ethnic similarity.
>
> > Tymoshenko too has suddenly declared herself a Russia-lover and is
> > trying to form an anti-Yuschenko coalition with the pro-Russian
> > Yanukovich forces.
>
> Rumors.
>
It's been only a couple of days. Give time.
>
> > In fact, in her post-firing interview, Tymoshenko demonstratively
> > played with an orange and a blue ribbon, putitng them together for the
> > camera and saying: "Why didn't we notice before that the orange and
> > blue ribbons together form the flag of Ukriane?!". AFAIK, blue is the
> > color of Russia. To be fair, i am not sure if this is what Tymoshenko
> > actually meant but I think it is. Can anybody else confirm?
>
> Are the Africans still putting heroin into the oranges?
>
Were they in December 2004? That would explain a lot. In particular,
can you get poisoned and develop a rash from a heroin overdose? :-)
Former King of Pangea
<vkar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1126560294....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> cherni...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> > vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >
>> > CIA - The World Factbook
>> > GDP - real growth rate:
>> >
>> > Latvia - 7.6% (2004 est.)
>> >
>> > Ukraine - 12% (2004 est.)
>> >
>> > But to be fair, this is now history. This Ukrainian economic boom
>> > caused a huge concern in USA and Poland, who simply had to stop it:
>>
>> Ukraine's economic growth slowed down; it did not stop. It's projected
>> at 8% for this year (higher than Russia's?)
>>
>
> Trust me, given the actions of Tymoshenko and Parashenko (sp.?) in the
> last month or so, it will be much lower that 8%. Tymoshenko can't
> assault/rob Nikopol Ferrous Alloy Works and Kryvorizhstal without
> negative consequences to the economy. The economy can't work under
> corruption and robbery.
>
Whadya mean? It's been working that way since at least 1917.
vkar...@yahoo.com
> <vkar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1126558352.8...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > >
> > for Latvia for last year, there are 3 possibilities:
> >
> > 1. You don't think that Ukraine is in Europe
>
> Geographically it is. Culturally it isn't.
>
> Just as Russia is neither European or Asian, the same goes for Belarus and
> Ukraine.
>
Why do non-Europeans like Rwandans, Americans, Turks and Somalis
consider themselves judges as to who is European and who isn't?
Former King of Pangea
<vkar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1126560436....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
It's called "objectivity", numbnuts.
vkar...@yahoo.com
> <vkar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1126560436....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Former King of Pangea wrote:
> >> <vkar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1126558352.8...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >> > >
> >> > Given that the CIA reports a 12% growth for Ukraine vs. a 7.6% growth
> >> > for Latvia for last year, there are 3 possibilities:
> >> >
> >> > 1. You don't think that Ukraine is in Europe
> >>
> >> Geographically it is. Culturally it isn't.
> >>
> >> Just as Russia is neither European or Asian, the same goes for Belarus
> >> and
> >> Ukraine.
> >>
> >
> > Why do non-Europeans like Rwandans, Americans, Turks and Somalis
> > consider themselves judges as to who is European and who isn't?
> >
>
> It's called "objectivity", numbnuts.
>
You can't judge something that you don't understand.
vkar...@yahoo.com
> news:1126560294....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > cherni...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >> vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> > vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> >
> >> > CIA - The World Factbook
> >> > GDP - real growth rate:
> >> >
> >> > Latvia - 7.6% (2004 est.)
> >> >
> >> > Ukraine - 12% (2004 est.)
> >> >
> >> > But to be fair, this is now history. This Ukrainian economic boom
> >> > caused a huge concern in USA and Poland, who simply had to stop it:
> >>
> >> Ukraine's economic growth slowed down; it did not stop. It's projected
> >> at 8% for this year (higher than Russia's?)
> >>
> >
> > Trust me, given the actions of Tymoshenko and Parashenko (sp.?) in the
> > last month or so, it will be much lower that 8%. Tymoshenko can't
> > assault/rob Nikopol Ferrous Alloy Works and Kryvorizhstal without
> > negative consequences to the economy. The economy can't work under
> > corruption and robbery.
> >
>
> Whadya mean? It's been working that way since at least 1917.
>
Not well, was it?
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> <vkar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1126558352.8...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
>>
>>Given that the CIA reports a 12% growth for Ukraine vs. a 7.6% growth
>>for Latvia for last year, there are 3 possibilities:
>>
>>1. You don't think that Ukraine is in Europe
>
> Geographically it is. Culturally it isn't.
>
Well, what is it then Brookski ?
And why, In your opinion?
>
> Just as Russia is neither European or Asian,
>
O.k. I'll agree with you on that.
Perhaps like a high tech Tatar Horde, or still
a Mongolian Satrapy
>
> the same goes for Belarus and Ukraine.
>
But that doesn't apply to either Belarus or Ukraine.
The Black Monk
> cherni...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >
> > > CIA - The World Factbook
> > > GDP - real growth rate:
> > >
> > > Latvia - 7.6% (2004 est.)
> > >
> > > Ukraine - 12% (2004 est.)
> > >
> > > But to be fair, this is now history. This Ukrainian economic boom
> > > caused a huge concern in USA and Poland, who simply had to stop it:
> >
> > Ukraine's economic growth slowed down; it did not stop. It's projected
> > at 8% for this year (higher than Russia's?)
> >
>
> Trust me, given the actions of Tymoshenko and Parashenko (sp.?) in the
> last month or so, it will be much lower that 8%.
Currently it's 4%, which is still better than the USA's 3.7%, Germany's
less than 1%, etc. If you take out the effect of oil, it's twice that
of Russia (2% minus oil).
> Tymoshenko can't assault/rob Nikopol Ferrous Alloy Works and Kryvorizhstal > without negative consequences to the economy. The economy can't work under
> corruption and robbery.
No? It seemed to have worked quite well under Kuchma's robbery!
> > > the
> > > pro-Russian and pro-economy government of Yanukovich was swept away by
> > > the Orange Revolution, and the most corrupt members of Kuchma's past
> > > governments Yuschenko and Tymoshenko (both were Kuchma proteges) were
> > > put into power in December 2004.
> >
> > ???? Those guys actually helped end corruption, thus their dismissal.
> >
>
> Let me understand what you have just said. Last week, Tymoshenko looked
> around and noticed that the corruption in Ukraine no longer existed.
> So, she sent her right-hand man Zinchenko to announce his resignation
> and to accuse Yuschenko men of unprecedented corruption.
I was speaking of their tenure in Kuchma's government five years ago.
It was under Yushchenko that corruption got a litle better and when
Ukraine's economy finally turned around after the nose dive of the
1990's.
> In return, Yuschenko also looked around and also noticed that the
> corruption in Ukraine no longer existed. So, he immediately accused
> Tymoshenko and his own team of unprecedented corruption and fired them
> all.
>
> Is this your version of events? Interesting...
>
> >
> > > Yuschenko and Tymoshenko (with their
> > > cohorts, of course) immediately proceeded to robbing every little thing
> > > in the Ukrainian economy and putting them into their pockets. However,
> > > the number of robbers was larger than the number of profitable
> > > Ukrainian corporations.
> >
> > Any proof of this accusation?
> >
>
> What are you talking about? That's what Zinchenko, Parashenko,
> Yuschenko and many others themselves told us last week.
Those words are not facts. People can say all kinds of things against
their rivals. I am interested in evidence.
> > Any proof of this accusation? I haven't seen any evidence of actual
> > theft of resources,
> >
> I am not talking about natural resources. I am talking about giant
> profitable industrial corporations like Nikopol Ferrous Alloy Works and
> Kryvorizhstal, which the Tymoshenko and Yuschenko people both tried to
> steal from their current owners but couldn't divide between themselves.
Ah. "Tried..." but "couldn't"...
So you have no proof of any theft actually occurring, do you?
> > France and Germany are supportive of a weak and poor Ukraine (better
> > than an emerging rival), but a strong Ukrine is in Poland's interest
> >
>
> Total nonsense. Ukraine is an emerging economy and is no threat to the
> giants like France and Germany.
Wrong. It's engineers and scientists are as skilled and educated (or
more so) than those in Germany and France, and its workers more
competitive and hard working. Ukrainian planes and military equipment
compete well against French and Germans ones in equal competition. An
emerging Ukraine would be a definite threat to them.
> It compliments them. Moreover, a weak
> Ukrianian economy would mean that Western Europe will be flooded with
> Ukrainians seeking work.
Those guys are experienciong labor shortages and I'm sure they prefer
low paid Ukrainians over low paid Africans or Arabs.
> On the other hand, Poland itself is an emerging economy and is a direct
> competitor to Ukraine in every respect, including for example the
> influence over Belarus.
I think that Ukraine/Poland can be compared to Germany/France. Just as
G/F need each other (and need each other to be strong) in order to
counter US/UK influence, so a strong, allied Ukraine is vital to
Poland's interest vis a vis predatory Germany or Russia (and vice
versa). A weak Ukraine will probably be dependent on and drawn into
Russia, which is certainly not in Poland's interests.
> Plus don't forget the Polish desire to effectively re-colonize Ukraine,
> and you can't colonize a stronger and larger country, can you.
Weak Ukraine = the province of Little Russia. It wouldn't be colonized
anyways.
> >
> > (Does America care?)
> >
>
> It cares enough for the US State Department to declare to the
> flabbergassed (sp?) journalists: "The last thing we need is a bunch of
> Ukrainians running around with guns".
As Bill Cosby's son fopund out.
(okay, a joke in very bad taste...)
> More seriously, a strong Slavic and Greek Orthodox Ukraine is percieved
> as a threat to America's New World Order, along with Russia, Belarus
> and (former) Yugoslavia.
True. Although a strong Slavic and Orthodox Ukraine would still be a
European - not Eurasian - Ukraine and thus not necessarily opposed to
Polsnd nor allied to Russia/Byelorus.
regards,
BM
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>It cares enough for the US State Department to declare to the
>>flabbergassed (sp?) journalists: "The last thing we need is
>>a bunch of Ukrainians running around with guns".
>
> As Bill Cosby's son fopund out.
>
> (okay, a joke in very bad taste...)
>
And considering the ethno-cltural identity and background
of the killer, it's a bit off the mark. :-(
vkar...@yahoo.com
> vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > cherni...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > >
> > > > CIA - The World Factbook
> > > > GDP - real growth rate:
> > > >
> > > > Latvia - 7.6% (2004 est.)
> > > >
> > > > Ukraine - 12% (2004 est.)
> > > >
> > > > But to be fair, this is now history. This Ukrainian economic boom
> > > > caused a huge concern in USA and Poland, who simply had to stop it:
> > >
> > > Ukraine's economic growth slowed down; it did not stop. It's projected
> > > at 8% for this year (higher than Russia's?)
> > >
> >
> > Trust me, given the actions of Tymoshenko and Parashenko (sp.?) in the
> > last month or so, it will be much lower that 8%.
>
> Currently it's 4%,
>
In a parallel reply to you, I will post an excellent article on this
subject.
>
> which is still better than the USA's 3.7%, Germany's
> less than 1%, etc. If you take out the effect of oil, it's twice that
> of Russia (2% minus oil).
>
Well, it looks like the high oil prices are here to stay...
>
> > Tymoshenko can't assault/rob Nikopol Ferrous Alloy Works and Kryvorizhstal
> without negative consequences to the economy. The economy can't work under
> > corruption and robbery.
>
> No? It seemed to have worked quite well under Kuchma's robbery!
>
The growth occurred LONG AFTER Kuchma's robbery.
>
> > > > the
> > > > pro-Russian and pro-economy government of Yanukovich was swept away by
> > > > the Orange Revolution, and the most corrupt members of Kuchma's past
> > > > governments Yuschenko and Tymoshenko (both were Kuchma proteges) were
> > > > put into power in December 2004.
> > >
> > > ???? Those guys actually helped end corruption, thus their dismissal.
> > >
> >
> > Let me understand what you have just said. Last week, Tymoshenko looked
> > around and noticed that the corruption in Ukraine no longer existed.
> > So, she sent her right-hand man Zinchenko to announce his resignation
> > and to accuse Yuschenko men of unprecedented corruption.
>
> I was speaking of their tenure in Kuchma's government five years ago.
> It was under Yushchenko that corruption got a litle better and when
> Ukraine's economy finally turned around after the nose dive of the
> 1990's.
>
It may all be coincidental, you know.
>
> > In return, Yuschenko also looked around and also noticed that the
> > corruption in Ukraine no longer existed. So, he immediately accused
> > Tymoshenko and his own team of unprecedented corruption and fired them
> > all.
> >
> > Is this your version of events? Interesting...
> >
> > >
> > > > Yuschenko and Tymoshenko (with their
> > > > cohorts, of course) immediately proceeded to robbing every little thing
> > > > in the Ukrainian economy and putting them into their pockets. However,
> > > > the number of robbers was larger than the number of profitable
> > > > Ukrainian corporations.
> > >
> > > Any proof of this accusation?
> > >
> >
> > What are you talking about? That's what Zinchenko, Parashenko,
> > Yuschenko and many others themselves told us last week.
>
> Those words are not facts. People can say all kinds of things against
> their rivals. I am interested in evidence.
>
The evidence is in what was happening over Nikopol Ferrous Alloy Works,
Sverodonetsk Nitrogen, and
Kryvorizhstal. Read up on this.
Here is the exact translation of a small part of an Yuschenko interview
that I personally saw yesterday on the Russian-American TV RTVi:
Yuschenko: "For the 4th day in a row I come to work with a calm soul. I
don't expect any surprises any more. Not about Sverodonetsk Nitrogen,
not about Kryvorozh Steel. I am sure that no businessman will point out
to me that some double-crossing behind-the-scenes politics is being
conducted by the Government. And I am a happy man now because of
this."
>
> > > Any proof of this accusation? I haven't seen any evidence of actual
> > > theft of resources,
> > >
> > I am not talking about natural resources. I am talking about giant
> > profitable industrial corporations like Nikopol Ferrous Alloy Works and
> > Kryvorizhstal, which the Tymoshenko and Yuschenko people both tried to
> > steal from their current owners but couldn't divide between themselves.
>
> Ah. "Tried..." but "couldn't"...
>
Yes. Yuschenko had to interfere and fire both sides.
>
> So you have no proof of any theft actually occurring, do you?
>
I am not sure what you mean. Tymoshenko's people took all kinds of
actions to steal those two corporations.
Was the transfer of property final? No. Yuschenko prevented the final
takeover.
So, it wasn't an accomplished robbery but an attempt at one. How much
are these corporations worth? Maybe $1 billion? How much do you get for
stealing $1 billion? Probably life sentence.How much do you get for
try8ing to steal $1 billion but geting caught?
>
> > > France and Germany are supportive of a weak and poor Ukraine (better
> > > than an emerging rival), but a strong Ukrine is in Poland's interest
> > >
> >
> > Total nonsense. Ukraine is an emerging economy and is no threat to the
> > giants like France and Germany.
>
> Wrong. It's engineers and scientists are as skilled and educated (or
> more so) than those in Germany and France, and its workers more
> competitive and hard working. Ukrainian planes and military equipment
> compete well against French and Germans ones in equal competition. An
> emerging Ukraine would be a definite threat to them.
>
Same goes for Poland double. Same goes for Russia tenfold.
>
> > It compliments them. Moreover, a weak
> > Ukrianian economy would mean that Western Europe will be flooded with
> > Ukrainians seeking work.
>
> Those guys are experienciong labor shortages and I'm sure they prefer
> low paid Ukrainians over low paid Africans or Arabs.
>
You are surely jesting. With close to 100 million Eastern Europeans
other than Ukrianians and 4 billion non-Europeans, what shortage of
labor can Western Europe experience? If they are - I can send 200
million Indians and 300 million Chinese their way tomorrow. :-)
>
> > On the other hand, Poland itself is an emerging economy and is a direct
> > competitor to Ukraine in every respect, including for example the
> > influence over Belarus.
>
> I think that Ukraine/Poland can be compared to Germany/France. Just as
> G/F need each other (and need each other to be strong) in order to
> counter US/UK influence, so a strong, allied Ukraine is vital to
> Poland's interest vis a vis predatory Germany or Russia (and vice
> versa).
>
Yes, Poland needs a subservient Ukriane on its side to conduct its
anti-Russian and anti-German polcy. But the last thing that Ukraine
needs is to ally itself with a beligirent colonialist-minded Poland and
agianst Russia and Germany.
>
> A weak Ukraine will probably be dependent on and drawn into
> Russia, which is certainly not in Poland's interests.
>
No, a weak but pro-NATO Ukriane will be ripe for Polish economic and
political re-colonization.
>
> > Plus don't forget the Polish desire to effectively re-colonize Ukraine,
> > and you can't colonize a stronger and larger country, can you.
>
> Weak Ukraine = the province of Little Russia. It wouldn't be colonized
> anyways.
>
Weak Ukraine = the province of Little Rech Pospolita (Poland).
>
> > > (Does America care?)
> > >
> >
> > It cares enough for the US State Department to declare to the
> > flabbergassed (sp?) journalists: "The last thing we need is a bunch of
> > Ukrainians running around with guns".
>
> As Bill Cosby's son fopund out.
>
> (okay, a joke in very bad taste...)
>
Actually, what did Ukrianians have to do with his death? I don't
remeber.
>
> > More seriously, a strong Slavic and Greek Orthodox Ukraine is percieved
> > as a threat to America's New World Order, along with Russia, Belarus
> > and (former) Yugoslavia.
>
> True. Although a strong Slavic and Orthodox Ukraine would still be a
> European - not Eurasian - Ukraine and thus not necessarily opposed to
> Polsnd nor allied to Russia/Byelorus.
>
Yep, many more Russians insist on being "Eurasian" than do Ukrianains.
In particular, Russian joint maneuvers with China seem stupid, childish
and near-sighted.
vkar...@yahoo.com
>
> Currently it's 4%, which is still better than the USA's 3.7%, Germany's
> less than 1%, etc. If you take out the effect of oil, it's twice that
> of Russia (2% minus oil).
>
FYI:
Moscow Times
September 14, 2005
Why Tymoshenko's Figures Didn't Add Up
By Anders Aslund, a senior associate at the Carnegie Endowment for
International Peace.
This has been a miserable year for the Ukrainian economy. Last year,
Ukraine enjoyed economic growth of no less than 12.1 percent, but that
declined to 3.7 percent during the first seven months of 2005.
Moreover,
output has been declining almost every month, as has industrial
production,
which fell by 2.4 percent in July compared to July last year.
Construction
and investment are falling even faster. A huge trade surplus last year
has
been eliminated in the last months. Ukraine is clearly on the way
toward
growth of a mere 2 percent to 3 percent this year. Only the budget
balance
is positive, as the Finance Ministry has pursued a conservative fiscal
policy.
This economic deterioration has been caused by domestic economic
policy.
The dominant concern has been a wide-ranging discussion about
reprivatization. Another problem has been a sharply increased tax
burden of
5 percent to 6 percent of GDP, which was needed to finance very large
increases in social transfers and public wages. A third issue has been
far-reaching government intervention in the economy, including attempts
to
regulate the prices of petrol, meat and grain, and to reinforce state
monopolies. A doubling of railway tariffs for metal freight has also
harmed
the economy. The government has operated like a profit-maximizing state
holding company oblivious of the effects on the private sector.
Meanwhile, this government has not undertaken any of the many promised
and
badly needed liberal reforms. The only positive step has been the late
adoption of half the World Trade Organization-related legislation that
was
necessary for Ukraine's accession to the WTO this year. So far, no
significant deregulation has occurred, despite much talk. There have
been
no tax cuts. No financial legislation has been adopted, even though
Ukraine
still does not even have a law on joint-stock companies.
In short, this government has been an unmitigated disaster of socialist
populism. On top of everything, it has maintained a revolutionary
discourse
of vehement public attacks against individual businessmen and
politicians,
including members of the government. It was therefore a great relief
when
President Viktor Yushchenko reasserted his authority to put an end to
this
public mismanagement. Sensibly, Yushchenko also let go several big
businessmen who helped finance and manage his campaign, as their
aspirations to make money on their positions have been another worry.
This government change marks the end of the Orange Revolution.
Tymoshenko
and her loyalists have now marched out of the government, and
Tymoshenko
has declared that her political bloc will stay independent of
Yushchenko's.
The question now is where various politicians and businessmen will go.
One
old oligarch, Alexander Volkov, and what is probably the second-largest
oligarch group, Privat Group in Dnepropetrovsk, have been with
Tymoshenko
for a long time. More than 20 businessmen in the parliament have
recently
joined her faction. Sensationally, former President Leonid Kuchma's
former
chief of staff, Viktor Medvedchuk, and his Social Democratic Party are
suddenly favoring Tymoshenko, as is Ukraine's first president, Leonid
Kravchuk. Curiously, the real agitators of the Orange Revolution and
some
of the more disreputable oligarchs appear to be coming together in
Tymoshenko's bloc.
vkar...@yahoo.com
More information:
Canberra Times (Australia)
September 14, 2005
'Coloured revolutions' revealed to be hollow at core
By Dr Kirill Nourzhanov, a lecturer at the Centre for Arab and Islamic
Studies (The Middle East and Central Asia) at the ANU
THE POLITICAL crisis in Ukraine has once again exposed the sad reality
behind the so-called ''coloured revolutions'' in the former Soviet
Union.
The removal from power of Eduard Shevardnadze in Georgia in November
2003,
the instalment of Victor Yushchenko as Ukraine's president a year
later,
and the forced resignation of Kyrgyzstan's leader Askar Akaev in March
2005
have been presented in the Western media as examples of ''people
power''
sweeping away corrupt, authoritarian and inefficient regimes.
Ostensibly,
all three events - dubbed ''rose'', ''orange'', and ''tulip''
revolutions
respectively - followed the same scenario. First, the incumbent
government
tries to rort elections. Second, the news of irregularities arouses the
already downtrodden masses who spontaneously take to the streets
demanding
an end to unpopular rule. Finally, starry-eyed opposition leaders take
over
political power from the trembling hands of old dictators and lead
their
nations into the prosperous world of capitalist democracy.
As George W. Bush eloquently put it during his visit to Tbilisi in May
2005, ''You gathered here armed with nothing but roses and the power of
your convictions, and you claimed your liberty. And because you acted,
Georgia is today both sovereign and free, and a beacon of liberty for
this
region and the world''.
The problem is, popular involvement in the regime change has been
overstated. The majority of the population refrained from active
protest.
In Georgia, political battles occurred exclusively in the capital city,
involving fewer than 10,000 opposition supporters.
The situation in Ukraine was not much different: that country
experienced a
post-modern coup when one faction in the same ruling elite removed
another.
In the case of Kyrgyzstan, a rather trivial redistribution of power
between
traditional tribal/regional cliques took place on the strength of
several
hundred clan militiamen. Personal power and mercantile self-interest
continue to motivate politicians in Georgia, Kyrgyzstan and Ukraine.
Reprivatisation of some 3000 commercial entities in the wake of the
orange
revolution is at the core of the unfolding political drama in Kiev. The
struggle for control over this extremely lucrative process has finally
split the team of President Yushchenko, sending an unmistakable signal
to
the Ukrainian people about the alleged anti-corruption bona fides of
the
new regime.
The results of Mikhail Saakashvili's presidency in Georgia are even
more
disastrous.
Why do the ''coloured revolutions'' still receive so much publicity in
the
West? More importantly, why does money continue to flow to prop up the
increasingly frail and unpopular ''revolutionary'' governments? Georgia
today is the second-largest recipient of US assistance after Israel in
per
capita terms. Georgia under Saakashvili has become the most ardent
follower
of the US in the international arena. It has increased the size of its
military contingent in Iraq five-fold, making it the seventh- largest
in
the ''Coalition of the Willing''. Georgia is also a vital link in the
US-sponsored project to export oil from the Caspian Sea bypassing
Russia
and Iran.
The only noticeable accomplishment of the Yushchenko administration to
date
has been Ukraine's accelerated integration into NATO. The democratic
credentials of President Kurmanbek Bakiev were accepted by the US after
he
agreed not to follow the example of neighbouring Uzbekistan and allowed
the
US to keep its air base in Kyrgyzstan.
Paradoxically, democracy may turn out to be the ultimate victim of the
''coloured revolutions'' in Eurasia.
vkar...@yahoo.com
FYI:
Nezavisimaya Gazeta
September 13, 2005
TIMOSHENKO'S DISMISSAL OPENS KIEV FOR PUTIN
President Putin will visit Yushchenko in October
Kiev now seems intent on rapprochement with Russia
Author: Tatiana Ivzhenko
[Following the government dismissal, President Yushchenko's inner
circle is reconstructing Ukrainian-Russian relations from scratch.
Judging by its initial reaction, Moscow is accepting this
benevolently. New Ukrainian State Secretary Oleg Rybachuk started
off by making a two-day visit to Moscow.]
President Viktor Yushchenko's inner circle is reconstructing
Ukrainian-Russian relations from scratch. Judging by its initial
reaction, Moscow is accepting this benevolently. New Ukrainian State
Secretary Oleg Rybachuk started off by making a two-day visit to
Moscow. The visit ends later today. Rybachuk said that he had
received the invitation from his Russian counterpart Dmitry
Medvedev, Director of the Presidential Administration. Calling
Rybachuk from Moscow last Sunday, Medvedev proposed that they "get
to know one another better." The haste with which the visit was
organized may serve as an indication of official Kiev's intention to
revise its relations with the Kremlin.
Russian leaders appear to be ready to accept Ukraine's new
course for rapprochement. Several hours after the visit began,
Russian Ambassador Viktor Chernomyrdin held a press conference in
Kiev. Chernomyrdin announced that President Vladimir Putin will
visit Kiev in the second half of October. It's interesting to noted
that Yushchenko had invited his Russian counterpart to Kiev in
August, but the invitation was accepted only after Prime Minister
Yulia Timoshenko was sacked and replaced by some more pro-Russian
politicians.
Chernomyrdin said yesterday that Yushchenko had informed him by
phone of Ukraine's readiness to participate in United Economic Zone
paperwork. About 90 documents have already been drafted for the four
countries of the United Economic Zone, but Ukraine was prepared to
sign no more than 15 of them until now. Looks like the situation is
changing.
Yushchenko himself changed the tone of his statements with
regard to the United Economic Zone last Sunday. He said that
Timoshenko got "bogged down in PR and promises" and did not have
time to "shape the road to European integration or choose the
nuances of importance for processes of integration in other economic
projects, like the United Economic Zone." The president completed
his statement by saying that the new Cabinet should be more
pragmatic.
It should be noted as well that the visit of the Ukrainian
president to Washington scheduled to begin yesterday was postponed.
Insiders in the president's chancellory explain that Yushchenko
decided to postpone the visit in order to be able to personally
introduce the new head of the Ukrainian National Security Service to
the nation. In the meantime, the official presidential website did
not post any information on that score. Neither does the republican
Foreign Ministry know anything about what would happen to
Yushchenko's visit to the United States. Deputies of Yushchenko's
faction in the national parliament claim that the visit was not
cancelled - only postponed for a day or two.
Lawmakers declined comments on a connection between the
government dismissal and postponement of Yushchenko's visit. Off the
record, however, they confirm reports in the Ukrainian media that
Timoshenko had covert talks with officials of the US Embassy on the
night before her Cabinet was dismissed. Officially, neither side has
confirmed or denied the reports. It is only known that US President
George W. Bush called Yushchenko that day and asked for
clarification of the situation. Press service of the Ukrainian
president claims that Bush promised support to all processes of
democratization. Official reports do not explain whether Bush
regarded the latest developments in Ukraine as "processes of
democratization."
What is known is that Yushchenko reassured Bush that Ukraine's
policy of integration into Euro-Atlantic structures is stable. Some
Rada members say that Yushchenko postponed his visit to Washington
in order to marshal his arguments.
Translated by A. Ignatkin
«Pas de deux»
you.
<vkar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1126730424....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
«Pas de deux»
wank too much.
<vkar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1126730720.3...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Vladimir Makarenko
Amusing - to follow up - "Boris Abramych! Shlite Oranges bochkami!"
http://www.lenta.ru/news/2005/09/15/nemtsov/
VM.
The Black Monk
> > which is still better than the USA's 3.7%, Germany's
> > less than 1%, etc. If you take out the effect of oil, it's twice that
> > of Russia (2% minus oil).
> >
> Well, it looks like the high oil prices are here to stay...
Good for Russia. But when comparing the effectiverness of governments
it's wise not to include things that aren't the government's fault,
like good/bad oil prices.
> > > Tymoshenko can't assault/rob Nikopol Ferrous Alloy Works and Kryvorizhstal
> > without negative consequences to the economy. The economy can't work under
> > > corruption and robbery.
> >
> > No? It seemed to have worked quite well under Kuchma's robbery!
> >
>
> The growth occurred LONG AFTER Kuchma's robbery.
And continued throughout it. Krivorizhstal was stolen in May 2004 at
the height of Ukraine's growth.
> > > >
> > > > ???? Those guys actually helped end corruption, thus their dismissal.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Let me understand what you have just said. Last week, Tymoshenko looked
> > > around and noticed that the corruption in Ukraine no longer existed.
> > > So, she sent her right-hand man Zinchenko to announce his resignation
> > > and to accuse Yuschenko men of unprecedented corruption.
> >
> > I was speaking of their tenure in Kuchma's government five years ago.
> > It was under Yushchenko that corruption got a litle better and when
> > Ukraine's economy finally turned around after the nose dive of the
> > 1990's.
>
> It may all be coincidental, you know.
Could be. But about 10 years of yearly decline and suddenly slight
growth that then accelerates is pretty significant.
> > > > > Yuschenko and Tymoshenko (with their
> > > > > cohorts, of course) immediately proceeded to robbing every little thing
> > > > > in the Ukrainian economy and putting them into their pockets. However,
> > > > > the number of robbers was larger than the number of profitable
> > > > > Ukrainian corporations.
> > > >
> > > > Any proof of this accusation?
> > > >
> > >
> > > What are you talking about? That's what Zinchenko, Parashenko,
> > > Yuschenko and many others themselves told us last week.
> >
> > Those words are not facts. People can say all kinds of things against
> > their rivals. I am interested in evidence.
> >
>
> The evidence is in what was happening over Nikopol Ferrous Alloy Works,
> Sverodonetsk Nitrogen, and Kryvorizhstal. Read up on this.
>
> Here is the exact translation of a small part of an Yuschenko interview
> that I personally saw yesterday on the Russian-American TV RTVi:
>
> Yuschenko: "For the 4th day in a row I come to work with a calm soul. I
> don't expect any surprises any more. Not about Sverodonetsk Nitrogen,
> not about Kryvorozh Steel. I am sure that no businessman will point out
> to me that some double-crossing behind-the-scenes politics is being
> conducted by the Government. And I am a happy man now because of
> this."
So all that happened were (alleged) attempts, not actual theft.
Businessmen were making claims (who knows how credible - perhaps they
were just making accusations out of spite at not getting the contracts
they wanted) and that's it.
It seems silly to compare this to the situation in Kuchma's Ukraine or
its counterpart Yeltsin's Russia.
> > > > Any proof of this accusation? I haven't seen any evidence of actual
> > > > theft of resources,
> > > >
> > > I am not talking about natural resources. I am talking about giant
> > > profitable industrial corporations like Nikopol Ferrous Alloy Works and
> > > Kryvorizhstal, which the Tymoshenko and Yuschenko people both tried to
> > > steal from their current owners but couldn't divide between themselves.
> >
> > Ah. "Tried..." but "couldn't"...
> >
>
> Yes. Yuschenko had to interfere and fire both sides.
That's pretty cool, isn't it?
> > So you have no proof of any theft actually occurring, do you?
> >
>
> I am not sure what you mean. Tymoshenko's people took all kinds of
> actions to steal those two corporations.
You wrote:
"Yuschenko and Tymoshenko (with their
cohorts, of course) immediately proceeded to robbing every little thing
in the Ukrainian economy and putting them into their
pockets....Yuschenko, himself is responsible for the economic crimes
committed if not by the Tymoshenko people, whom he had put into power,
but certainly by his own people."
When as you later admitted, there is no evidence of a single thing
being put into anybody's pockets and no economic crime actually being
committed.
It's just businessmen and politicians complaining about each other.
> Was the transfer of property final? No. Yuschenko prevented the final
> takeover.
>
> So, it wasn't an accomplished robbery but an attempt at one. How much
> are these corporations worth? Maybe $1 billion? How much do you get for
> stealing $1 billion? Probably life sentence.How much do you get for
> trying to steal $1 billion but geting caught?
>
> >
> > > > France and Germany are supportive of a weak and poor Ukraine (better
> > > > than an emerging rival), but a strong Ukrine is in Poland's interest
> > > >
> > >
> > > Total nonsense. Ukraine is an emerging economy and is no threat to the
> > > giants like France and Germany.
> >
> > Wrong. It's engineers and scientists are as skilled and educated (or
> > more so) than those in Germany and France, and its workers more
> > competitive and hard working. Ukrainian planes and military equipment
> > compete well against French and Germans ones in equal competition. An
> > emerging Ukraine would be a definite threat to them.
>
> Same goes for Poland double. Same goes for Russia tenfold.
Yes, Poland and Russia are also threats from that perspective. But
Russia can also help strategically with its oil and as a global
counterforce to the USA. Thus France/Germany work with Russia. Poland
and Ukraine offer nothing good so France/Germany tries to crush them.
Interesting, some smaller EU countries such as Sweden are more
supportive of Ukraine (probably like Poland they see a counterbalance
to French/German power).
> > > It compliments them. Moreover, a weak
> > > Ukrianian economy would mean that Western Europe will be flooded with
> > > Ukrainians seeking work.
> >
> > Those guys are experienciong labor shortages and I'm sure they prefer
> > low paid Ukrainians over low paid Africans or Arabs.
>
> You are surely jesting. With close to 100 million Eastern Europeans
> other than Ukrianians and 4 billion non-Europeans, what shortage of
> labor can Western Europe experience? If they are - I can send 200
> million Indians and 300 million Chinese their way tomorrow. :-)
Europeans don't make children so they need someone to pay their
pensions. Some recent Czech politician suggested letting in about 1
million Ukrainians. Do you think that Euros would prefer their
countries to be taken over by Slavs or Arabs?
> > > On the other hand, Poland itself is an emerging economy and is a direct
> > > competitor to Ukraine in every respect, including for example the
> > > influence over Belarus.
> >
> > I think that Ukraine/Poland can be compared to Germany/France. Just as
> > G/F need each other (and need each other to be strong) in order to
> > counter US/UK influence, so a strong, allied Ukraine is vital to
> > Poland's interest vis a vis predatory Germany or Russia (and vice
> > versa).
>
> Yes, Poland needs a subservient Ukriane on its side to conduct its
> anti-Russian and anti-German polcy.
Sorry, Poles are not so stupid as to imagine that their 40 million
could ever dominate 50 million Ukrainians, much less colonize them.
> But the last thing that Ukraine needs is to ally itself with a beligirent
> colonialist-minded Poland and agianst Russia and Germany.
Russia and Germany have already allied themselves against Poland and
Ukraine (in the 21st century, thids means economics not war). The only
question is whether Poland and Ukraine will cooperate together against
these neo-imperialist powers.
> > A weak Ukraine will probably be dependent on and drawn into
> > Russia, which is certainly not in Poland's interests.
>
> No, a weak but pro-NATO Ukriane will be ripe for Polish economic and
> political re-colonization.
Weak and pro-NATO are mutually exclusive. Proximity to wealthy Russia
with similar religion and culture plus 40% Russian/Russophone
population indicates that a weak Ukraine without a sense of self would
drift towards the east, not west.
> > > Plus don't forget the Polish desire to effectively re-colonize Ukraine,
> > > and you can't colonize a stronger and larger country, can you.
> >
> > Weak Ukraine = the province of Little Russia. It wouldn't be colonized
> > anyways.
> >
>
> Weak Ukraine = the province of Little Rech Pospolita (Poland).
Sorry, that's just not logical.
> > > > (Does America care?)
> > > >
> > >
> > > It cares enough for the US State Department to declare to the
> > > flabbergassed (sp?) journalists: "The last thing we need is a bunch of
> > > Ukrainians running around with guns".
> >
> > As Bill Cosby's son fopund out.
> >
> > (okay, a joke in very bad taste...)
> >
>
> Actually, what did Ukrianians have to do with his death? I don't
> remeber.
His killer was a Russian-speaking Jewish guy from Lviv.
> > > More seriously, a strong Slavic and Greek Orthodox Ukraine is percieved
> > > as a threat to America's New World Order, along with Russia, Belarus
> > > and (former) Yugoslavia.
> >
> > True. Although a strong Slavic and Orthodox Ukraine would still be a
> > European - not Eurasian - Ukraine and thus not necessarily opposed to
> > Polsnd nor allied to Russia/Byelorus.
> >
>
> Yep, many more Russians insist on being "Eurasian" than do Ukrianains.
> In particular, Russian joint maneuvers with China seem stupid, childish
> and near-sighted.
That's because Russians *are* Eurasians, while Ukrainians are not.
regards,
BM
vkar...@yahoo.com
> vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > > which is still better than the USA's 3.7%, Germany's
> > > less than 1%, etc. If you take out the effect of oil, it's twice that
> > > of Russia (2% minus oil).
> > >
> > Well, it looks like the high oil prices are here to stay...
>
> Good for Russia. But when comparing the effectiverness of governments
> it's wise not to include things that aren't the government's fault,
> like good/bad oil prices.
>
Russia's economy is currently based on natural resources. You can't
separate them from the rest of economy.
>
> > > > Tymoshenko can't assault/rob Nikopol Ferrous Alloy Works and Kryvorizhstal
> > > without negative consequences to the economy. The economy can't work under
> > > > corruption and robbery.
> > >
> > > No? It seemed to have worked quite well under Kuchma's robbery!
> >
> > The growth occurred LONG AFTER Kuchma's robbery.
>
> And continued throughout it. Krivorizhstal was stolen in May 2004 at
> the height of Ukraine's growth.
>
If you say so.
>
> > > > > > Yuschenko and Tymoshenko (with their
> > > > > > cohorts, of course) immediately proceeded to robbing every little thing
> > > > > > in the Ukrainian economy and putting them into their pockets. However,
> > > > > > the number of robbers was larger than the number of profitable
> > > > > > Ukrainian corporations.
> > > > >
> > > > > Any proof of this accusation?
> > > >
> > > > What are you talking about? That's what Zinchenko, Parashenko,
> > > > Yuschenko and many others themselves told us last week.
> > >
> > > Those words are not facts. People can say all kinds of things against
> > > their rivals. I am interested in evidence.
> >
> > The evidence is in what was happening over Nikopol Ferrous Alloy Works,
> > Sverodonetsk Nitrogen, and Kryvorizhstal. Read up on this.
> >
> > Here is the exact translation of a small part of an Yuschenko interview
> > that I personally saw yesterday on the Russian-American TV RTVi:
> >
> > Yuschenko: "For the 4th day in a row I come to work with a calm soul. I
> > don't expect any surprises any more. Not about Sverodonetsk Nitrogen,
> > not about Kryvorozh Steel. I am sure that no businessman will point out
> > to me that some double-crossing behind-the-scenes politics is being
> > conducted by the Government. And I am a happy man now because of
> > this."
>
> So all that happened were (alleged) attempts, not actual theft.
>
Let me repeat: Tymoshenko's people took all kinds of actions to steal
at least 3 corporations. Plus Tymoshenko tried to use the Government to
cover for her own corporation's debt of $8 billion to the Ukrainian
taxpayers and of $1.5 billion to the Russian taxpayers, according to
Yuschenko's TV interview yesterday.
Was the transfer of property final? Probably not. Yuschenko prevented
the final takeover.
So, it wasn't an accomplished robbery but an attempt at one.
How much are these corporations worth? Maybe $1 billion? How much do
you get for suceesfully stealing $1 billion? Probably 25 years.
How much do you get for trying to steal $1 billion but geting caught in
the act of theft? Exactly the same 25 years. Once you start the
robbery, it makes no difeence to the court or anybody else whether you
finished it or were caught in the middle.
>
> Businessmen were making claims (who knows how credible - perhaps they
> were just making accusations out of spite at not getting the contracts
> they wanted) and that's it.
>
No. The above attempts were real, well documented, and confirmed both
by Yuschenko and his men.
>
> It seems silly to compare this to the situation in Kuchma's Ukraine or
> its counterpart Yeltsin's Russia.
>
Well, kudos to Ukraine for stopping the theft this time. But it doesn't
diminish the guilt of Tymoshenko and Yuschenko's men (like Poroshenko).
>
> > > > > Any proof of this accusation? I haven't seen any evidence of actual
> > > > > theft of resources,
> > > > >
> > > > I am not talking about natural resources. I am talking about giant
> > > > profitable industrial corporations like Nikopol Ferrous Alloy Works and
> > > > Kryvorizhstal, which the Tymoshenko and Yuschenko people both tried to
> > > > steal from their current owners but couldn't divide between themselves.
> > >
> > > Ah. "Tried..." but "couldn't"...
> > >
> >
> > Yes. Yuschenko had to interfere and fire both sides.
>
> That's pretty cool, isn't it?
>
I guess. But why were all his own men so corrupt? Anf same for
Tymosheno and her men.
>
> > > So you have no proof of any theft actually occurring, do you?
> > >
> >
> > I am not sure what you mean. Tymoshenko's people took all kinds of
> > actions to steal those two corporations.
>
> You wrote:
>
> "Yuschenko and Tymoshenko (with their
> cohorts, of course) immediately proceeded to robbing every little thing
> in the Ukrainian economy and putting them into their
> pockets....
Yes, they did exactly that: they immediately proceeded to robbing every
little thing in the Ukrainian economy and to putting them into their
pockets. But this procedure was stopped by Yuschenko before it
finished.
>
> Yuschenko, himself is responsible for the economic crimes
> committed if not by the Tymoshenko people, whom he had put into power,
> but certainly by his own people."
>
OK, this should read "economic crimes attempted"...
>
> When as you later admitted, there is no evidence of a single thing
> being put into anybody's pockets and no economic crime actually being
> committed.
>
Ad I said, these crimes were stopped in the middle.
>
> It's just businessmen and politicians complaining about each other.
>
Plus journalists and everybody else. So what?
>
> > Was the transfer of property final? No. Yuschenko prevented the final
> > takeover.
> >
> > So, it wasn't an accomplished robbery but an attempt at one.
>
Correct. AFAIK.
> > >
> > > > > France and Germany are supportive of a weak and poor Ukraine (better
> > > > > than an emerging rival), but a strong Ukrine is in Poland's interest
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Total nonsense. Ukraine is an emerging economy and is no threat to the
> > > > giants like France and Germany.
> > >
> > > Wrong. It's engineers and scientists are as skilled and educated (or
> > > more so) than those in Germany and France, and its workers more
> > > competitive and hard working. Ukrainian planes and military equipment
> > > compete well against French and Germans ones in equal competition. An
> > > emerging Ukraine would be a definite threat to them.
> >
> > Same goes for Poland double. Same goes for Russia tenfold.
>
> Yes, Poland and Russia are also threats from that perspective. But
> Russia can also help strategically with its oil and as a global
> counterforce to the USA.
>
Right on. And Russia can also help Ukriane with its oil, gas and other
resources. Ukriane simply can't survive without those.
>
> Thus France/Germany work with Russia. Poland
> and Ukraine offer nothing good so France/Germany tries to crush them.
> Interesting, some smaller EU countries such as Sweden are more
> supportive of Ukraine (probably like Poland they see a counterbalance
> to French/German power).
>
> > > > It compliments them. Moreover, a weak
> > > > Ukrianian economy would mean that Western Europe will be flooded with
> > > > Ukrainians seeking work.
> > >
> > > Those guys are experienciong labor shortages and I'm sure they prefer
> > > low paid Ukrainians over low paid Africans or Arabs.
> >
> > You are surely jesting. With close to 100 million Eastern Europeans
> > other than Ukrianians and 4 billion non-Europeans, what shortage of
> > labor can Western Europe experience? If they are - I can send 200
> > million Indians and 300 million Chinese their way tomorrow. :-)
>
> Europeans don't make children so they need someone to pay their
> pensions. Some recent Czech politician suggested letting in about 1
> million Ukrainians. Do you think that Euros would prefer their
> countries to be taken over by Slavs or Arabs?
>
Ukrianians don't make children either. If many working age Ukrainians
move to EU, who will populate Ukrian and pay pensions to Ukrianian
elderly?
>
> > > > On the other hand, Poland itself is an emerging economy and is a direct
> > > > competitor to Ukraine in every respect, including for example the
> > > > influence over Belarus.
> > >
> > > I think that Ukraine/Poland can be compared to Germany/France. Just as
> > > G/F need each other (and need each other to be strong) in order to
> > > counter US/UK influence, so a strong, allied Ukraine is vital to
> > > Poland's interest vis a vis predatory Germany or Russia (and vice
> > > versa).
> >
> > Yes, Poland needs a subservient Ukriane on its side to conduct its
> > anti-Russian and anti-German polcy.
>
> Sorry, Poles are not so stupid as to imagine that their 40 million
> could ever dominate 50 million Ukrainians, much less colonize them.
>
Has been done before.
>
> > But the last thing that Ukraine needs is to ally itself with a beligirent
> > colonialist-minded Poland and agianst Russia and Germany.
>
> Russia and Germany have already allied themselves against Poland and
> Ukraine (in the 21st century, thids means economics not war).
>
I am not sure if Russia and Germany have already allied themselves
against Poland or not, but certainly they haven't done so against
Ukraine at all. Far from it.
>
> The only question is whether Poland and Ukraine will cooperate together
> against these neo-imperialist powers.
>
Total nonsesnse. Must be a Catholic speaking in you. Ukraine will be
closer allied to Germany than to Poland. Plus don't forget the negative
images that both Germans and Poles have in the historical minds of most
Ukrainians, whereas at least one half of Ukrainians are NOT against
Russia.
>
> > > A weak Ukraine will probably be dependent on and drawn into
> > > Russia, which is certainly not in Poland's interests.
> >
> > No, a weak but pro-NATO Ukriane will be ripe for Polish economic and
> > political re-colonization.
>
> Weak and pro-NATO are mutually exclusive.
>
Weak economically.
>
> Proximity to wealthy Russia
> with similar religion and culture plus 40% Russian/Russophone
> population
>
Exactly my point. There is a lot of good will between many average
Russian and Ukrianin citizens, unlike Ukriane vs. Poland and Germany.
>
> indicates that a weak Ukraine without a sense of self would
> drift towards the east, not west.
>
So may a strong Ukraine too. If Russia is natural-resource based and
Ukraine - industrial-based, the two will compliment each other.
>
> > > > > (Does America care?)
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > It cares enough for the US State Department to declare to the
> > > > flabbergassed (sp?) journalists: "The last thing we need is a bunch of
> > > > Ukrainians running around with guns".
> > >
> > > As Bill Cosby's son fopund out.
> > >
> > > (okay, a joke in very bad taste...)
> > >
> >
> > Actually, what did Ukrianians have to do with his death? I don't
> > remeber.
>
> His killer was a Russian-speaking Jewish guy from Lviv.
>
Really?! I didn't know. I did my Google search and found out that his
name is Mikail Markhasev and that he is from Ukraine, but neither his
ethnicity nor his city of orgin are mentioned. What are your sources?
> > > > More seriously, a strong Slavic and Greek Orthodox Ukraine is percieved
> > > > as a threat to America's New World Order, along with Russia, Belarus
> > > > and (former) Yugoslavia.
> > >
> > > True. Although a strong Slavic and Orthodox Ukraine would still be a
> > > European - not Eurasian - Ukraine and thus not necessarily opposed to
> > > Polsnd nor allied to Russia/Byelorus.
> >
> > Yep, many more Russians insist on being "Eurasian" than do Ukrianains.
> > In particular, Russian joint maneuvers with China seem stupid, childish
> > and near-sighted.
>
> That's because Russians *are* Eurasians, while Ukrainians are not.
>
Total nonsese. They are what the the current political situation tells
them to be. In the late 1980s-early 1990s very few Russians viewed
themselves as Eurasian.
cherni...@hotmail.com
> The Black Monk wrote:
> > vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > > > which is still better than the USA's 3.7%, Germany's
> > > > less than 1%, etc. If you take out the effect of oil, it's twice that
> > > > of Russia (2% minus oil).
> > > >
> > > Well, it looks like the high oil prices are here to stay...
> >
> > Good for Russia. But when comparing the effectiverness of governments
> > it's wise not to include things that aren't the government's fault,
> > like good/bad oil prices.
> >
>
> Russia's economy is currently based on natural resources. You can't
> separate them from the rest of economy.
Okay. Except when comparing the level of competence of different
governments, you can't give them credit for something they did not do
(i.e., high oil prices). Russian government can get credit for 2%
growth, Ukrainian for 4%.
...cut...
> > > Here is the exact translation of a small part of an Yuschenko interview
> > > that I personally saw yesterday on the Russian-American TV RTVi:
> > >
> > > Yuschenko: "For the 4th day in a row I come to work with a calm soul. I
> > > don't expect any surprises any more. Not about Sverodonetsk Nitrogen,
> > > not about Kryvorozh Steel. I am sure that no businessman will point out
> > > to me that some double-crossing behind-the-scenes politics is being
> > > conducted by the Government. And I am a happy man now because of
> > > this."
> >
> > So all that happened were (alleged) attempts, not actual theft.
> >
>
> Let me repeat: Tymoshenko's people took all kinds of actions to steal
> at least 3 corporations. Plus Tymoshenko tried to use the Government to
> cover for her own corporation's debt of $8 billion to the Ukrainian
> taxpayers and of $1.5 billion to the Russian taxpayers, according to
> Yuschenko's TV interview yesterday.
>
> Was the transfer of property final? Probably not. Yuschenko prevented
> the final takeover.
>
> So, it wasn't an accomplished robbery but an attempt at one.
>
> How much are these corporations worth? Maybe $1 billion? How much do
> you get for suceesfully stealing $1 billion? Probably 25 years.
>
> How much do you get for trying to steal $1 billion but geting caught in
> the act of theft? Exactly the same 25 years. Once you start the
> robbery, it makes no difeence to the court or anybody else whether you
> finished it or were caught in the middle.
I rather think penalties differ depending on attempted robbery and
robbery.
BTW Khodorkovsky got only 9 years for stealing his billions (and never
mind the trail of bodies - the murder of some difficult Siberian mayor
on his birthday in the 1990's was a nice touch).
Accusations against Timoshenko are not proven. Yushchenko's words,
quoted above, indicate merely that there was a large amount of
complaints against her from a lot of people, and that these were
interfering with the business of running the country. So for this
reason firing her was a good idea. But there's no indication that
those accusations were true.
> > Businessmen were making claims (who knows how credible - perhaps they
> > were just making accusations out of spite at not getting the contracts
> > they wanted) and that's it.
> >
>
> No. The above attempts were real, well documented, and confirmed both
> by Yuschenko and his men.
If it's not too much trouble, could you post Yushenko's direct
accusations against Timoshenko? (I don't necessarily doubt you, I just
haven't read then and haven't had time to hunt for them)? So far I've
seen his complaints about having to dealwith a lot of accusations from
rivals, rather than his own accusations.
> > It seems silly to compare this to the situation in Kuchma's Ukraine or
> > its counterpart Yeltsin's Russia.
> >
> Well, kudos to Ukraine for stopping the theft this time. But it doesn't
> diminish the guilt of Tymoshenko and Yuschenko's men (like Poroshenko).
Again, what guilt?
> > > > > > Any proof of this accusation? I haven't seen any evidence of actual
> > > > > > theft of resources,
> > > > > >
> > > > > I am not talking about natural resources. I am talking about giant
> > > > > profitable industrial corporations like Nikopol Ferrous Alloy Works and
> > > > > Kryvorizhstal, which the Tymoshenko and Yuschenko people both tried to
> > > > > steal from their current owners but couldn't divide between themselves.
> > > >
> > > > Ah. "Tried..." but "couldn't"...
> > > >
> > >
> > > Yes. Yuschenko had to interfere and fire both sides.
> >
> > That's pretty cool, isn't it?
>
> I guess. But why were all his own men so corrupt? Anf same for
> Tymosheno and her men.
I haven't yet seen proof of corruption on any one of these people, just
accusations by rivals jockeying for power.
> > > > So you have no proof of any theft actually occurring, do you?
> > > >
> > >
> > > I am not sure what you mean. Tymoshenko's people took all kinds of
> > > actions to steal those two corporations.
> >
> > You wrote:
> >
> > "Yuschenko and Tymoshenko (with their
> > cohorts, of course) immediately proceeded to robbing every little thing
> > in the Ukrainian economy and putting them into their
> > pockets....
>
> Yes, they did exactly that: they immediately proceeded to robbing every
> little thing in the Ukrainian economy and to putting them into their
> pockets. But this procedure was stopped by Yuschenko before it
> finished.
In that case, they did not rob but attempted to rob, since nothing was
actually stolen, or put into their pockets. And even here, again,
these are merely allegations.
> > Yuschenko, himself is responsible for the economic crimes
> > committed if not by the Tymoshenko people, whom he had put into power,
> > but certainly by his own people."
> >
>
> OK, this should read "economic crimes attempted"...
>
> >
> > When as you later admitted, there is no evidence of a single thing
> > being put into anybody's pockets and no economic crime actually being
> > committed.
> >
>
> Ad I said, these crimes were stopped in the middle.
>
> >
> > It's just businessmen and politicians complaining about each other.
> >
>
> Plus journalists and everybody else. So what?
Journalists report on the accusations made. They can do that now,
under Yushchenko, without fear of ending up headless in the woods.
> > > Was the transfer of property final? No. Yuschenko prevented the final
> > > takeover.
> > >
> > > So, it wasn't an accomplished robbery but an attempt at one.
> >
>
> Correct. AFAIK.
>
> > > >
> > > > > > France and Germany are supportive of a weak and poor Ukraine (better
> > > > > > than an emerging rival), but a strong Ukrine is in Poland's interest
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Total nonsense. Ukraine is an emerging economy and is no threat to the
> > > > > giants like France and Germany.
> > > >
> > > > Wrong. It's engineers and scientists are as skilled and educated (or
> > > > more so) than those in Germany and France, and its workers more
> > > > competitive and hard working. Ukrainian planes and military equipment
> > > > compete well against French and Germans ones in equal competition. An
> > > > emerging Ukraine would be a definite threat to them.
> > >
> > > Same goes for Poland double. Same goes for Russia tenfold.
> >
> > Yes, Poland and Russia are also threats from that perspective. But
> > Russia can also help strategically with its oil and as a global
> > counterforce to the USA.
> >
>
> Right on. And Russia can also help Ukriane with its oil, gas and other
> resources. Ukriane simply can't survive without those.
But Russian help comes with the price of diminished sovereignty and
cultural imperialism. This is obviously not the case for France and
Germany.
> > Thus France/Germany work with Russia. Poland
> > and Ukraine offer nothing good so France/Germany tries to crush them.
> > Interesting, some smaller EU countries such as Sweden are more
> > supportive of Ukraine (probably like Poland they see a counterbalance
> > to French/German power).
> >
> > > > > It compliments them. Moreover, a weak
> > > > > Ukrianian economy would mean that Western Europe will be flooded with
> > > > > Ukrainians seeking work.
> > > >
> > > > Those guys are experienciong labor shortages and I'm sure they prefer
> > > > low paid Ukrainians over low paid Africans or Arabs.
> > >
> > > You are surely jesting. With close to 100 million Eastern Europeans
> > > other than Ukrianians and 4 billion non-Europeans, what shortage of
> > > labor can Western Europe experience? If they are - I can send 200
> > > million Indians and 300 million Chinese their way tomorrow. :-)
> >
> > Europeans don't make children so they need someone to pay their
> > pensions. Some recent Czech politician suggested letting in about 1
> > million Ukrainians. Do you think that Euros would prefer their
> > countries to be taken over by Slavs or Arabs?
> >
>
> Ukrianians don't make children either. If many working age Ukrainians
> move to EU, who will populate Ukrian and pay pensions to Ukrianian
> elderly?
Obviously the EU doesn't care.
> > > > > On the other hand, Poland itself is an emerging economy and is a direct
> > > > > competitor to Ukraine in every respect, including for example the
> > > > > influence over Belarus.
> > > >
> > > > I think that Ukraine/Poland can be compared to Germany/France. Just as
> > > > G/F need each other (and need each other to be strong) in order to
> > > > counter US/UK influence, so a strong, allied Ukraine is vital to
> > > > Poland's interest vis a vis predatory Germany or Russia (and vice
> > > > versa).
> > >
> > > Yes, Poland needs a subservient Ukriane on its side to conduct its
> > > anti-Russian and anti-German polcy.
> >
> > Sorry, Poles are not so stupid as to imagine that their 40 million
> > could ever dominate 50 million Ukrainians, much less colonize them.
> >
>
> Has been done before.
Briefly, and unsuccessfully, with disastrous consequences for Poland.
Most Poles have learned from their past mistakes. Have Russians?
> > > But the last thing that Ukraine needs is to ally itself with a beligirent
> > > colonialist-minded Poland and agianst Russia and Germany.
> >
> > Russia and Germany have already allied themselves against Poland and
> > Ukraine (in the 21st century, thids means economics not war).
> >
>
> I am not sure if Russia and Germany have already allied themselves
> against Poland or not, but certainly they haven't done so against
> Ukraine at all. Far from it.
I think Russia sending Yeltsin spin master Pavlovsky into Ukraine, and
pouring 300 million dollars to support a convicted criminal, rapist,
mafioso for President, who promised to make Russian a state language
and to enter into closer union with Russia, is a form of economic
warfare, no? How about Putin's visit to Ukraine and standing side by
side with Kuchma and Yanukovich (which - good for the Ukrainian people
- backfired as even Russophones got offended at the idea of a foreign
ruler coming into town in such an insolent manner)?
> > The only question is whether Poland and Ukraine will cooperate together
> > against these neo-imperialist powers.
> >
>
> Total nonsesnse. Must be a Catholic speaking in you. Ukraine will be
> closer allied to Germany than to Poland. Plus don't forget the negative
> images that both Germans and Poles have in the historical minds of most
> Ukrainians, whereas at least one half of Ukrainians are NOT against
> Russia.
The events of last year have done much to ease Ukrainian-Polish
hostilities.
> >
> > > > A weak Ukraine will probably be dependent on and drawn into
> > > > Russia, which is certainly not in Poland's interests.
> > >
> > > No, a weak but pro-NATO Ukriane will be ripe for Polish economic and
> > > political re-colonization.
> >
> > Weak and pro-NATO are mutually exclusive.
> >
>
> Weak economically.
Likewise. Russia can apply much more pressure on an economically weak
Ukraine than can Poland or NATO.
> > Proximity to wealthy Russia
> > with similar religion and culture plus 40% Russian/Russophone
> > population
> >
>
> Exactly my point. There is a lot of good will between many average
> Russian and Ukrianin citizens, unlike Ukriane vs. Poland and Germany.
Sure. Having 40% Russians/Russophones insures a lot of good will
between a large portion of the population and Russia.
> > indicates that a weak Ukraine without a sense of self would
> > drift towards the east, not west.
> >
>
> So may a strong Ukraine too. If Russia is natural-resource based and
> Ukraine - industrial-based, the two will compliment each other.
True. But such strong Russian links come with a necesarily bad
cultural price, that is not the case with Polish links...
...cut...
> > > > True. Although a strong Slavic and Orthodox Ukraine would still be a
> > > > European - not Eurasian - Ukraine and thus not necessarily opposed to
> > > > Polsnd nor allied to Russia/Byelorus.
> > >
> > > Yep, many more Russians insist on being "Eurasian" than do Ukrianains.
> > > In particular, Russian joint maneuvers with China seem stupid, childish
> > > and near-sighted.
> >
> > That's because Russians *are* Eurasians, while Ukrainians are not.
> >
>
> Total nonsese. They are what the the current political situation tells
> them to be. In the late 1980s-early 1990s very few Russians viewed
> themselves as Eurasian.
Not the ones I have known. But this could be a whole other thread...
regards,
BM
vkar...@yahoo.com
> vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > The Black Monk wrote:
> > > vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > > which is still better than the USA's 3.7%, Germany's
> > > > > less than 1%, etc. If you take out the effect of oil, it's twice that
> > > > > of Russia (2% minus oil).
> > > > >
> > > > Well, it looks like the high oil prices are here to stay...
> > >
> > > Good for Russia. But when comparing the effectiverness of governments
> > > it's wise not to include things that aren't the government's fault,
> > > like good/bad oil prices.
> > >
> >
> > Russia's economy is currently based on natural resources. You can't
> > separate them from the rest of economy.
>
> Okay. Except when comparing the level of competence of different
> governments, you can't give them credit for something they did not do
> (i.e., high oil prices). Russian government can get credit for 2%
> growth, Ukrainian for 4%.
>
Given the much higher per capita GDP in Russia, it's easier for Ukriane
to grow faster. No way but up...
In any case, the phenomenal 12% growth under Yanukovich has been
stopped by the Tymoshenko rule.
If you get caught by police in the middle of a robbery, you get
precisely the same punishment as if you finished the robbery and then
got caught later.
>
> BTW Khodorkovsky got only 9 years for stealing his billions (and never
> mind the trail of bodies - the murder of some difficult Siberian mayor
> on his birthday in the 1990's was a nice touch).
>
Total nonsense. Khodorkovsky was never convicted (or even formally
accused) of commtting any of the above crimes. He was accused and
convicted of under-reporting his tax obligations.
>
> Accusations against Timoshenko are not proven.
>
Good. From now on, I will expect you to cite only the facts that are
proven in court. For example, if you say that Putin is curtailing the
freeedom of speech on the government-controlled TV channels, I will
demand that you provide the court ruling to that effect, even though we
all know that Putin is doing just that. :-)
>
> Yushchenko's words,
> quoted above, indicate merely that there was a large amount of
> complaints against her from a lot of people, and that these were
> interfering with the business of running the country. So for this
> reason firing her was a good idea. But there's no indication that
> those accusations were true.
>
Yuschenko was as clear in his accusations as the laws allow.
>
> > > Businessmen were making claims (who knows how credible - perhaps they
> > > were just making accusations out of spite at not getting the contracts
> > > they wanted) and that's it.
> > >
> >
> > No. The above attempts were real, well documented, and confirmed both
> > by Yuschenko and his men.
>
> If it's not too much trouble, could you post Yushenko's direct
> accusations against Timoshenko?
>
I have posted everything that I have personally heard from Yuschenko.
The rest comes from the Ukrainian journalists and from Yuschenko
sidekicks like Poroshenko. Look it up. Sorry I don't have time this
week.
>
> (I don't necessarily doubt you, I just
> haven't read then and haven't had time to hunt for them)? So far I've
> seen his complaints about having to deal with a lot of accusations from
> rivals, rather than his own accusations.
>
> > > It seems silly to compare this to the situation in Kuchma's Ukraine or
> > > its counterpart Yeltsin's Russia.
> > >
> > Well, kudos to Ukraine for stopping the theft this time. But it doesn't
> > diminish the guilt of Tymoshenko and Yuschenko's men (like Poroshenko).
>
> Again, what guilt?
>
> > > > > > > Any proof of this accusation? I haven't seen any evidence of actual
> > > > > > > theft of resources,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > I am not talking about natural resources. I am talking about giant
> > > > > > profitable industrial corporations like Nikopol Ferrous Alloy Works and
> > > > > > Kryvorizhstal, which the Tymoshenko and Yuschenko people both tried to
> > > > > > steal from their current owners but couldn't divide between themselves.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ah. "Tried..." but "couldn't"...
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yes. Yuschenko had to interfere and fire both sides.
> > >
> > > That's pretty cool, isn't it?
> >
> > I guess. But why were all his own men so corrupt? And same for
> > Tymosheno and her men.
>
> I haven't yet seen proof of corruption on any one of these people, just
> accusations by rivals jockeying for power.
>
> > > > > So you have no proof of any theft actually occurring, do you?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I am not sure what you mean. Tymoshenko's people took all kinds of
> > > > actions to steal those two corporations.
> > >
> > > You wrote:
> > >
> > > "Yuschenko and Tymoshenko (with their
> > > cohorts, of course) immediately proceeded to robbing every little thing
> > > in the Ukrainian economy and putting them into their
> > > pockets....
> >
> > Yes, they did exactly that: they immediately proceeded to robbing every
> > little thing in the Ukrainian economy and to putting them into their
> > pockets. But this procedure was stopped by Yuschenko before it
> > finished.
>
> In that case, they did not rob but attempted to rob, since nothing was
> actually stolen, or put into their pockets.
>
If you come to a bank and demand $10 million, you are guilty, even
though this $10 million never lands in your pocket.
>
> > > Yuschenko, himself is responsible for the economic crimes
> > > committed if not by the Tymoshenko people, whom he had put into power,
> > > but certainly by his own people."
> > >
> >
> > OK, this should read "economic crimes attempted"...
> >
> > >
> > > When as you later admitted, there is no evidence of a single thing
> > > being put into anybody's pockets and no economic crime actually being
> > > committed.
> > >
> >
> > Ad I said, these crimes were stopped in the middle.
> >
> > >
> > > It's just businessmen and politicians complaining about each other.
> > >
> >
> > Plus journalists and everybody else. So what?
>
> Journalists report on the accusations made.
>
No, lonmg before the accusations were made, the journalists were
reporting all the minitia of the fight over Ferrosplavy, Azot,
Kryvorozhstal, Donetsk, etc.
>
> They can do that now,
> under Yushchenko, without fear of ending up headless in the woods.
>
True.
>
> > > > Was the transfer of property final? No. Yuschenko prevented the final
> > > > takeover.
> > > >
> > > > So, it wasn't an accomplished robbery but an attempt at one.
> > >
> >
> > Correct. AFAIK.
> >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > France and Germany are supportive of a weak and poor Ukraine (better
> > > > > > > than an emerging rival), but a strong Ukrine is in Poland's interest
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Total nonsense. Ukraine is an emerging economy and is no threat to the
> > > > > > giants like France and Germany.
> > > > >
> > > > > Wrong. It's engineers and scientists are as skilled and educated (or
> > > > > more so) than those in Germany and France, and its workers more
> > > > > competitive and hard working. Ukrainian planes and military equipment
> > > > > compete well against French and Germans ones in equal competition. An
> > > > > emerging Ukraine would be a definite threat to them.
> > > >
> > > > Same goes for Poland double. Same goes for Russia tenfold.
> > >
> > > Yes, Poland and Russia are also threats from that perspective. But
> > > Russia can also help strategically with its oil and as a global
> > > counterforce to the USA.
> > >
> >
> > Right on. And Russia can also help Ukriane with its oil, gas and other
> > resources. Ukriane simply can't survive without those.
>
> But Russian help comes with the price of diminished sovereignty and
> cultural imperialism. This is obviously not the case for France and
> Germany.
>
Yes, because these two are economically strong. But Ukraine is in
danger of becoming a victim of economic, military, political, and
cultural imperialism at the hands of ANY country that offers it its
help. The biggest threat comes from the country that exhibits 99% of
modern World's imperialism: USA. But, as the polls indicate, all of
Europe (except for stupid Eastern European dwarves) is scared shitless
of US imperialism.
Poles have learnt nothing. For many centuries Poland ruled over Ukraine
and Belarus. It also constantly invaded Russia and many times instilled
its puppet regimes in Moscow. Finally, the Russians said: "Enough is
enough. You want a united Poland-Russia. You got it! But you won't be
in charge." So, Poland sufferd from Russian rule until 1917. And guess
what it did immediately after it gained independence from
Russia/Germany/Austria? It invaded Russia in 1920 and conquered huge
parts of Ukriane and Belarus! It had learned nothing.
So, they lost these lands to Russia in 1939 and itself became a Rusisan
colony in 1945. So, what are they doing now, after they got their
independence for the second time in the 20th century? Openly plotting
to control the government of Belarus. There vultures haven't learned
yet. Evidently, they need more lessons.
>
> > > > But the last thing that Ukraine needs is to ally itself with a beligirent
> > > > colonialist-minded Poland and agianst Russia and Germany.
> > >
> > > Russia and Germany have already allied themselves against Poland and
> > > Ukraine (in the 21st century, thids means economics not war).
> > >
> >
> > I am not sure if Russia and Germany have already allied themselves
> > against Poland or not, but certainly they haven't done so against
> > Ukraine at all. Far from it.
>
> I think Russia sending Yeltsin spin master Pavlovsky
>
Pavlovsky is Putin's not Yeltsin's.
>
> into Ukraine, and
> pouring 300 million dollars to support a convicted criminal, rapist,
> mafioso for President, who promised to make Russian a state language
> and to enter into closer union with Russia, is a form of economic
> warfare, no?
>
Whom are you talking about? Yanukovich? What proof do you have for each
of the above accusations? Please give the same level of evidence that
you demand of me with regards to the accusations agaisnt Tymoshenko.
>
> How about Putin's visit to Ukraine and standing side by
> side with Kuchma and Yanukovich (which - good for the Ukrainian people
> - backfired as even Russophones got offended at the idea of a foreign
> ruler coming into town in such an insolent manner)?
>
How about Yuschenko accepting $15 million from Berezovsky, even thoug
it is a crime to accept money from foreigners?
>
> > > The only question is whether Poland and Ukraine will cooperate together
> > > against these neo-imperialist powers.
> > >
> >
> > Total nonsesnse. Must be a Catholic speaking in you. Ukraine will be
> > closer allied to Germany than to Poland. Plus don't forget the negative
> > images that both Germans and Poles have in the historical minds of most
> > Ukrainians, whereas at least one half of Ukrainians are NOT against
> > Russia.
>
> The events of last year have done much to ease Ukrainian-Polish
> hostilities.
>
There were no events Except for Poland playing a crucial role in
allowing one presidential candidate win over another candidate. It
takes much more than that to alleviate the fears towards Poles, and
Catholics in general.
>
> > > > > A weak Ukraine will probably be dependent on and drawn into
> > > > > Russia, which is certainly not in Poland's interests.
> > > >
> > > > No, a weak but pro-NATO Ukriane will be ripe for Polish economic and
> > > > political re-colonization.
> > >
> > > Weak and pro-NATO are mutually exclusive.
> >
> > Weak economically.
>
> Likewise. Russia can apply much more pressure on an economically weak
> Ukraine than can Poland or NATO.
>
Equally.
>
> > > Proximity to wealthy Russia
> > > with similar religion and culture plus 40% Russian/Russophone
> > > population
> > >
> >
> > Exactly my point. There is a lot of good will between many average
> > Russian and Ukrianin citizens, unlike Ukriane vs. Poland and Germany.
>
> Sure. Having 40% Russians/Russophones insures a lot of good will
> between a large portion of the population and Russia.
>
If you don't like Russians in Ukriane, you can start getting rid of
them by returning Krym, which was stolen from Russia by the Soviet
Communist rulers in 1956. You can't both forcibly occupy Russian people
and complain of their presence at the same time, can you?
>
> > > indicates that a weak Ukraine without a sense of self would
> > > drift towards the east, not west.
> > >
> >
> > So may a strong Ukraine too. If Russia is natural-resource based and
> > Ukraine - industrial-based, the two will compliment each other.
>
> True. But such strong Russian links come with a necesarily bad
> cultural price, that is not the case with Polish links...
>
Oh my god! Being a Catholic, you just don't understand the dangers of
Polish imperialism to the Ukrainian culture.
For example, are you aware of the enormous current efforts on the part
of the Catholic Church to proslethyse (sp.?) among Orhtodox Chrisitans
in Belarus, Ukraine and Russia?
Look at Belarus as an example of a target for Polish imperialism.
> ...cut...
>
> > > > > True. Although a strong Slavic and Orthodox Ukraine would still be a
> > > > > European - not Eurasian - Ukraine and thus not necessarily opposed to
> > > > > Polsnd nor allied to Russia/Byelorus.
> > > >
> > > > Yep, many more Russians insist on being "Eurasian" than do Ukrianains.
> > > > In particular, Russian joint maneuvers with China seem stupid, childish
> > > > and near-sighted.
> > >
> > > That's because Russians *are* Eurasians, while Ukrainians are not.
> >
> > Total nonsese. They are what the the current political situation tells
> > them to be. In the late 1980s-early 1990s very few Russians viewed
> > themselves as Eurasian.
>
> Not the ones I have known. But this could be a whole other thread...
>
You probably confuse "Ugro-Finnic" with "Asian". Finns are Europeans,
you know.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
>
> Whom are you talking about? Yanukovich? What proof do you have for each
> of the above accusations? Please give the same level of evidence that
> you demand of me with regards to the accusations agaisnt Tymoshenko.
>
vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> cherni...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>>How about Putin's visit to Ukraine and standing side by side
>>with Kuchma and Yanukovich (which - good for the Ukrainian people
>>- backfired as even Russophones got offended at the idea of
>>a foreign ruler coming into town in such an insolent manner)?
>>
>
> How about Yuschenko accepting $15 million from Berezovsky,
> even though it is a crime to accept money from foreigners?
>
Master vkarlamov, please write a little more about this,
backing up your claim.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> If you don't like Russians in Ukriane, you can start getting rid of
> them by returning Krym, which was stolen from Russia by the Soviet
> Communist rulers in 1956. You can't both forcibly occupy Russian people
> and complain of their presence at the same time, can you?
>
But who is forcibly occupying those Russian people?
There is no soviet style iron curtain holding
these people prisoner. Neither is Ukraine forcibly
relocating the Russian people out of Krym on the
model that the Russians have done to the Tatars,
and the Chechens. Or the way that the Polacks
forcibly removed the Lemkos from their native
lands, moving them to the ziemie odzyskane,
(the so called recovered lands), which were
given to them by the Russians after WW2.
Also I believe that the Russians relocated some
of ethnic Ukrainian population out of Kuban
in the early part of 20th century, while bringing
Russians to colonize all areas of Ukraine depopulated
in various ways.
Would you recommend that Ukraine, and perhaps
the Baltic countries adopt some of these Russian
type population solutions? They do seem much more
attractive than rearranging the borders.
--
Rostyk
Vladimir Makarenko
Rostyk, when at last you will start to read news? Haven't I already put
a link to the related article?
And since when Masters are supposed provide you with educational
materials? After work go - have a dinner, gorilka, to bed and next
morning will report to work again.
VM.
The Black Monk
vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
...cut...
> > BTW Khodorkovsky got only 9 years for stealing his billions (and never
> > mind the trail of bodies - the murder of some difficult Siberian mayor
> > on his birthday in the 1990's was a nice touch).
> >
>
> Total nonsense. Khodorkovsky was never convicted (or even formally
> accused) of commtting any of the above crimes. He was accused and
> convicted of under-reporting his tax obligations.
Timoshenko has not yet been _formally_ accused either by Yushchenko.
> > Accusations against Timoshenko are not proven.
> >
>
> Good. From now on, I will expect you to cite only the facts that are
> proven in court. For example, if you say that Putin is curtailing the
> freeedom of speech on the government-controlled TV channels, I will
> demand that you provide the court ruling to that effect, even though we
> all know that Putin is doing just that. :-)
Good point. But I was not even talking about being proven in a court
of law. The accusations have not even been remotely, empirically
verified (unlike, say, the obvious ownership of Russian TV stations and
an examination of their content. Or the fact that a mayor who was
giving Khodorkovsky a hard time just happened to be shot on Kh.'s
birthday).
> > Yushchenko's words,
> > quoted above, indicate merely that there was a large amount of
> > complaints against her from a lot of people, and that these were
> > interfering with the business of running the country. So for this
> > reason firing her was a good idea. But there's no indication that
> > those accusations were true.
> Yuschenko was as clear in his accusations as the laws allow.
>
> >
> > > > Businessmen were making claims (who knows how credible - perhaps they
> > > > were just making accusations out of spite at not getting the contracts
> > > > they wanted) and that's it.
> > > >
> > >
> > > No. The above attempts were real, well documented, and confirmed both
> > > by Yuschenko and his men.
> >
> > If it's not too much trouble, could you post Yushenko's direct
> > accusations against Timoshenko?
> >
>
> I have posted everything that I have personally heard from Yuschenko.
> The rest comes from the Ukrainian journalists and from Yuschenko
> sidekicks like Poroshenko. Look it up. Sorry I don't have time this
> week.
Nor do I :(
What you've posted suggests it is just words....
...cut...
> > > Yes, they did exactly that: they immediately proceeded to robbing every
> > > little thing in the Ukrainian economy and to putting them into their
> > > pockets. But this procedure was stopped by Yuschenko before it
> > > finished.
> >
> > In that case, they did not rob but attempted to rob, since nothing was
> > actually stolen, or put into their pockets.
> >
>
> If you come to a bank and demand $10 million, you are guilty, even
> though this $10 million never lands in your pocket.
What if you say that I came to the bank and demanded the 10 million.
But neither I nor the bank confirm your story. And then my boss fires
me because he is sick of people complaining about my alleged attempts
to rob banks.
...cut...
> > > > Yes, Poland and Russia are also threats from that perspective. But
> > > > Russia can also help strategically with its oil and as a global
> > > > counterforce to the USA.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Right on. And Russia can also help Ukriane with its oil, gas and other
> > > resources. Ukriane simply can't survive without those.
> >
> > But Russian help comes with the price of diminished sovereignty and
> > cultural imperialism. This is obviously not the case for France and
> > Germany.
> >
>
> Yes, because these two are economically strong. But Ukraine is in
> danger of becoming a victim of economic, military, political, and
> cultural imperialism at the hands of ANY country that offers it its
> help. The biggest threat comes from the country that exhibits 99% of
> modern World's imperialism: USA.
Well, as we have seen, USA is pretty ineffective. They've basically
succeeded in creating a Shiite theocracy in Iraq. So it's not so
dangerous culturally. In contrast, near neighbor Russia could be far
more effective in its imperialism.
> But, as the polls indicate, all of Europe (except for stupid Eastern European
> dwarves) is scared shitless of US imperialism.
Nothing stupid about eastern European behavior. They are in danger
from Germany/France and thus naturally seek to counterbalance this
threat with Germany/France's rival the USA.
...cut...
> > > > > Yes, Poland needs a subservient Ukriane on its side to conduct its
> > > > > anti-Russian and anti-German polcy.
> > > >
> > > > Sorry, Poles are not so stupid as to imagine that their 40 million
> > > > could ever dominate 50 million Ukrainians, much less colonize them.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Has been done before.
> >
> > Briefly, and unsuccessfully, with disastrous consequences for Poland.
> > Most Poles have learned from their past mistakes. Have Russians?
> >
>
> Poles have learnt nothing. For many centuries Poland ruled over Ukraine
> and Belarus.
This not a correct characterization. The Polish Commonwealth was
rather loosely organized. The most powerful figures in Ukraine for
much of its history during Commonwealth times were not Poles but
Ukrainian magnates. Thus the first printing of the Orthodox Bible was
in Lviv, thus the mass produced Orthodox Bible of prince Oztrozky, etc.
It should be remembered that when the Poles took Moscow, they did so
with the significant help of the Ukrainian hetman Sahaidachny.
The Poles fucked up when they attempted to turn this Commonwealth into
an exclusively Polish Roman Catholic state, starting in the late 16th
century. Doing so caused the loss of Ukraine due to Khmelnitsky's
revolt (recall that a generation earlier Khmelnitsky's father died in
battle fighting alongside the Poles) and then Poland's ultimate
collapse.
> It also constantly invaded Russia and many times instilled
> its puppet regimes in Moscow. Finally, the Russians said: "Enough is
> enough. You want a united Poland-Russia. You got it! But you won't be
> in charge." So, Poland sufferd from Russian rule until 1917. And guess
> what it did immediately after it gained independence from
> Russia/Germany/Austria? It invaded Russia in 1920 and conquered huge
> parts of Ukriane and Belarus! It had learned nothing.
Here you are wrong. Poland was invited into Ukraine at the behest of
Ukraine's elected leader. It was a liberation of Ukraine, not an
invasion of Russia.
Poles were not being merely philanthropists of course. Pilsudski
understood that strategically Poland needed a strong independent
Ukraine at its side in order to survive between the dangers of Germany
and Russia.
> So, they lost these lands to Russia in 1939 and itself became a Rusisan
> colony in 1945. So, what are they doing now, after they got their
> independence for the second time in the 20th century? Openly plotting
> to control the government of Belarus. There vultures haven't learned
> yet. Evidently, they need more lessons.
Belarus is no longer a nation anyways.
> > > > > But the last thing that Ukraine needs is to ally itself with a beligirent
> > > > > colonialist-minded Poland and agianst Russia and Germany.
> > > >
> > > > Russia and Germany have already allied themselves against Poland and
> > > > Ukraine (in the 21st century, thids means economics not war).
> > > >
> > >
> > > I am not sure if Russia and Germany have already allied themselves
> > > against Poland or not, but certainly they haven't done so against
> > > Ukraine at all. Far from it.
> >
> > I think Russia sending Yeltsin spin master Pavlovsky
> >
>
> Pavlovsky is Putin's not Yeltsin's.
Wasn't he behind Yeltsin's fraudulent election in 1996?
> > into Ukraine, and
> > pouring 300 million dollars to support a convicted criminal, rapist,
> > mafioso for President, who promised to make Russian a state language
> > and to enter into closer union with Russia, is a form of economic
> > warfare, no?
> >
>
> Whom are you talking about? Yanukovich? What proof do you have for each
> of the above accusations? Please give the same level of evidence that
> you demand of me with regards to the accusations agaisnt Tymoshenko.
http://www.prima-news.ru/eng/news/articles/2004/9/24/29521.html
> > How about Putin's visit to Ukraine and standing side by
> > side with Kuchma and Yanukovich (which - good for the Ukrainian people
> > - backfired as even Russophones got offended at the idea of a foreign
> > ruler coming into town in such an insolent manner)?
> >
>
> How about Yuschenko accepting $15 million from Berezovsky, even thoug
> it is a crime to accept money from foreigners?
That's just what Kravchuk claims. Why doesn't he provide the receipt
that he claims he has?
...cut...
> > Sure. Having 40% Russians/Russophones insures a lot of good will
> > between a large portion of the population and Russia.
> >
>
> If you don't like Russians in Ukriane, you can start getting rid of
> them by returning Krym, which was stolen from Russia by the Soviet
> Communist rulers in 1956.
Then will you give us Kuban and parts of Kursk oblast, as well as Brest
in Belorus? And recall a large part of Crimea will go not to Russia
but to the tatars.
My uncle, retired Soviet general, had a more radical solution in line
with his Soviet training. Shoot them all...
> You can't both forcibly occupy Russian people and complain of their presence at the same time, can you?
I'm not complaining of their presence. Rather, I am pointing out the
disadvantage they present to Ukraine (they also present advantages).
> > > > indicates that a weak Ukraine without a sense of self would
> > > > drift towards the east, not west.
> > > >
> > >
> > > So may a strong Ukraine too. If Russia is natural-resource based and
> > > Ukraine - industrial-based, the two will compliment each other.
> >
> > True. But such strong Russian links come with a necesarily bad
> > cultural price, that is not the case with Polish links...
> >
>
> Oh my god! Being a Catholic, you just don't understand the dangers of
> Polish imperialism to the Ukrainian culture.
>
> For example, are you aware of the enormous current efforts on the part
> of the Catholic Church to proslethyse (sp.?) among Orhtodox Chrisitans
> in Belarus, Ukraine and Russia?
Sure. They are converting people from atheism to Catholicism. How
many Orthodox Christians do you think would convert? Do not presume
that the entire population of Ukraine or Russia are Orthodox.
> Look at Belarus as an example of a target for Polish imperialism.
Belorus is strategically important. I doubt its people care too much
who rules over them, given their passive support for Lukashenka. Once
Yushchenko is secure he and the Poles can work on taking that miserable
country from out from Russia's grasp.
> > ...cut...
> >
> > > > > > True. Although a strong Slavic and Orthodox Ukraine would still be a
> > > > > > European - not Eurasian - Ukraine and thus not necessarily opposed to
> > > > > > Polsnd nor allied to Russia/Byelorus.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yep, many more Russians insist on being "Eurasian" than do Ukrianains.
> > > > > In particular, Russian joint maneuvers with China seem stupid, childish
> > > > > and near-sighted.
> > > >
> > > > That's because Russians *are* Eurasians, while Ukrainians are not.
> > >
> > > Total nonsese. They are what the the current political situation tells
> > > them to be. In the late 1980s-early 1990s very few Russians viewed
> > > themselves as Eurasian.
> >
> > Not the ones I have known. But this could be a whole other thread...
> >
>
> You probably confuse "Ugro-Finnic" with "Asian". Finns are Europeans,
> you know.
How about Tatars, Bashkirs, etc.? Volga Tatars are largely assimilated
Finno-Ugric people themselves. Are they Europeans?
regards,
BM
vkar...@yahoo.com
>
> Or the fact that a mayor who was
> giving Khodorkovsky a hard time just happened to be shot on Kh.'s
> birthday).
>
Why would Khodorkovsky want to kill his opponent precisely on
Khodorkovsky's birthday? To attract police's attention to Khodorkovsky
as a possible suspect? Makes no sense. If I were to order somebody's
murder, I would have done that on any day OTHER than my birthday. This
is paranoia on your part.
>
> > > > > Yes, Poland and Russia are also threats from that perspective. But
> > > > > Russia can also help strategically with its oil and as a global
> > > > > counterforce to the USA.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Right on. And Russia can also help Ukraine with its oil, gas and other
> > > > resources. Ukraine simply can't survive without those.
> > >
> > > But Russian help comes with the price of diminished sovereignty and
> > > cultural imperialism. This is obviously not the case for France and
> > > Germany.
> > >
> >
> > Yes, because these two are economically strong. But Ukraine is in
> > danger of becoming a victim of economic, military, political, and
> > cultural imperialism at the hands of ANY country that offers it its
> > help. The biggest threat comes from the country that exhibits 99% of
> > modern World's imperialism: USA.
>
> Well, as we have seen, USA is pretty ineffective.
>
Yes, USA is very ineffective in maintaining law and order in occupied
countries and in protecting innocent civilians from genocide at the
hands of US allies/puppets, as we have seen in Kosovo and Iraq. So
what?
But USA is extremely effective at invading foreign countries on
fraudulent charges, at staging coups and imposing its violent puppet
juntas, at taking over other countries' economies, and at flooding
other cultures with comic books, with Hollywood trash and with the
primitive drum beats called rap and hip-hop "music".
>
> They've basically
> succeeded in creating a Shiite theocracy in Iraq.
>
I doubt it. Haven't you heard that Al Qaeda, which is now a major force
in Iraq, has declared a war on Shiites in Iraq and is committing 3
terrorist acts per day?
>
> So it's not so dangerous culturally.
>
Sure it is. Ask the Sunnis.
>
> In contrast, near neighbor Russia could be far
> more effective in its imperialism.
>
When was the last time Russia invaded a foreign country and bombed
innocent civilians and TV stations in it?
>
> > But, as the polls indicate, all of Europe (except for stupid Eastern European
> > dwarves) is scared shitless of US imperialism.
>
> Nothing stupid about eastern European behavior. They are in danger
> from Germany/France and thus naturally seek to counterbalance this
> threat with Germany/France's rival the USA.
>
I respectfully disagree.
>
> ...cut...
>
> > > > > > Yes, Poland needs a subservient Ukraine on its side to conduct its
> > > > > > anti-Russian and anti-German policy.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sorry, Poles are not so stupid as to imagine that their 40 million
> > > > > could ever dominate 50 million Ukrainians, much less colonize them.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Has been done before.
> > >
> > > Briefly, and unsuccessfully, with disastrous consequences for Poland.
> > > Most Poles have learned from their past mistakes. Have Russians?
> > >
> >
> > Poles have learnt nothing. For many centuries Poland ruled over Ukraine
> > and Belarus.
>
> This not a correct characterization. The Polish Commonwealth was
> rather loosely organized. The most powerful figures in Ukraine for
> much of its history during Commonwealth times were not Poles but
> Ukrainian magnates. Thus the first printing of the Orthodox Bible was
> in Lviv,
>
The first printing of the Orthodox Bible was in Prague.
>
> thus the mass produced Orthodox Bible of prince Oztrozky, etc.
> It should be remembered that when the Poles took Moscow, they did so
> with the significant help of the Ukrainian hetman Sahaidachny.
>
> The Poles fucked up when they attempted to turn this Commonwealth into
> an exclusively Polish Roman Catholic state, starting in the late 16th
> century. Doing so caused the loss of Ukraine due to Khmelnitsky's
> revolt (recall that a generation earlier Khmelnitsky's father died in
> battle fighting alongside the Poles) and then Poland's ultimate
> collapse.
>
> > It also constantly invaded Russia and many times instilled
> > its puppet regimes in Moscow. Finally, the Russians said: "Enough is
> > enough. You want a united Poland-Russia. You got it! But you won't be
> > in charge." So, Poland suffered from Russian rule until 1917. And guess
> > what it did immediately after it gained independence from
> > Russia/Germany/Austria? It invaded Russia in 1920 and conquered huge
> > parts of Ukraine and Belarus! It had learned nothing.
>
> Here you are wrong. Poland was invited into Ukraine at the behest of
> Ukraine's elected leader. It was a liberation of Ukraine, not an
> invasion of Russia.
>
> Poles were not being merely philanthropists of course. Pilsudski
> understood that strategically Poland needed a strong independent
> Ukraine at its side in order to survive between the dangers of Germany
> and Russia.
>
> > So, they lost these lands to Russia in 1939 and itself became a Russian
> > colony in 1945. So, what are they doing now, after they got their
> > independence for the second time in the 20th century? Openly plotting
> > to control the government of Belarus. There vultures haven't learned
> > yet. Evidently, they need more lessons.
>
> Belarus is no longer a nation anyways.
>
> > > > > > But the last thing that Ukraine needs is to ally itself with a belligerent
> > > > > > colonialist-minded Poland and against Russia and Germany.
> > > > >
> > > > > Russia and Germany have already allied themselves against Poland and
> > > > > Ukraine (in the 21st century, this means economics not war).
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I am not sure if Russia and Germany have already allied themselves
> > > > against Poland or not, but certainly they haven't done so against
> > > > Ukraine at all. Far from it.
> > >
> > > I think Russia sending Yeltsin spin master Pavlovsky
> > >
> >
> > Pavlovsky is Putin's not Yeltsin's.
>
> Wasn't he behind Yeltsin's fraudulent election in 1996?
>
I don't know. I hadn't heard of him until this century.
>
> > > into Ukraine, and
> > > pouring 300 million dollars to support a convicted criminal, rapist,
> > > mafioso for President, who promised to make Russian a state language
> > > and to enter into closer union with Russia, is a form of economic
> > > warfare, no?
> > >
> >
> > Whom are you talking about? Yanukovich? What proof do you have for each
> > of the above accusations? Please give the same level of evidence that
> > you demand of me with regards to the accusations against Tymoshenko.
>
> http://www.prima-news.ru/eng/news/articles/2004/9/24/29521.html
>
Let's consider that article. It says that "from official sources it is
known that Yanukovich was convicted in 1967 of robbery." So, you vcan
call him "a convicted criminal".
But "rapist"? That article does clearly imply that Yanukovich was never
convicted of any rape charges and that there is no evidence that he was
indeed a rapist, a Martian, or that he is 400 years old. What evidence
does this article use to even accuse Yanukovich of rape? Here is the
evidence: "Documents concerning his participation in rape have
apparently gone missing from the militia station where they were held.
" Evidently, documents that he is a Martian are also missing, as does
the evidence that he is 400 years old. Does the absence of any evidence
of his guilt prove his guilt? Interesting...
Moreover, even that completely unfounded accusation of rape isn't an
accusation of rape but of TRYING to rape: "Yanukovich tried to rape a
girl". So, you went to infinite lengths to tell us that since
Tymoshenko's attempt at stealing property was never completed, it is
not a crime:
>
> I rather think penalties differ depending on attempted robbery and robbery.
>
How about rape and attempted rape? If the only thing he is accused of
is TRYING to rape, why did you call him a rapist?
>
> So all that happened were (alleged) attempts, not actual theft. Businessmen were making claims
> (who knows how credible) and that's it.
>
But the alleged Yanukovich rape (if it ever took place) was also never
completed. Nor is there any evidence of this attempt. Just some
Yanukovich political enemies inventing a story that some non-existent
evidence existed 30 years ago.
Yet, to you this lack of any evidence is evidence that he is a rapist.
Hypocrisy on your part, isn't it?
>
> When as you later admitted, there is no evidence of a single thing
> being put into anybody's pockets and no economic crime actually being
> committed.
>
Did Yanukovich actually rape a girl? No, he did not. Is there any
evidence that he even TRIED raped a girl? No evidence. Only evidence
that the evidence is not there.
>
> It's just businessmen and politicians complaining about each other.
>
Exactly!
>
> Those words are not facts. People can say all kinds of things against
> their rivals. I am interested in evidence.
>
Exactly!
All your article says is: "Yanukovich tried to rape a girl"."
>
> Ah. "Tried..." but "couldn't"...
>
Exactly!
>
> So you have no proof of any theft actually occurring, do you?
>
So you have no proof of any rape actually occurring, do you?
>
> Timoshenko has not yet been _formally_ accused either by Yushchenko.
>
Not only has Yanukovich not been _formally_ accused by the court of
any rape but he never raped anybody, did he?
>
> The accusations have not even been remotely, empirically verified
>
Exactly!
>
> What you've posted suggests it is just words....
>
What you've posted suggests it is just words....
>
> In that case, they did not rob but attempted to rob, since nothing was
> actually stolen, or put into their pockets. And even here, again,
> these are merely allegations.
>
In that case, he did not rape but attempted to rape, since that's what
your own article says. And even here, again, these are merely
allegations.
>
> Journalists report on the accusations made. They can do that now,
> under Yushchenko, without fear of ending up headless in the woods.
>
These accusations against Yanukovich were made while he was in power.
Journalists could do that then, under Yanukovich, without fear of
ending up headless in the woods.
Nor is there a single word of evidence about your accusation that he is
a mafioso.
Moreover this article says: "In 1978 the Donetsk regional court cleared
Yanukovich on all counts."
So, according to the Court of Law, he is not guilty of any of this, is
he?
>
> Again, what guilt?
>
Exactly.
>
> I haven't yet seen proof of corruption on any one of these people,
> just accusations by rivals jockeying for power.
>
And I haven't yet seen proof of rape or "mafiosity", just accusations
by rivals jockeying for power.
In other words, your own accusations don't meet the same level of
evidence that you demand of me with regards to the accusations against
Tymoshenko. Not even close. Not even by a mile. Two out of three
accusations that you leveled against Yanukovich have zero evidence and
are pure slander on your part. Pure hypocrisy.
>
> > > How about Putin's visit to Ukraine and standing side by
> > > side with Kuchma and Yanukovich (which - good for the Ukrainian people
> > > - backfired as even Russophones got offended at the idea of a foreign
> > > ruler coming into town in such an insolent manner)?
> > >
> >
> > How about Yuschenko accepting $15 million from Berezovsky, even though
> > it is a crime to accept money from foreigners?
>
> That's just what Kravchuk claims. Why doesn't he provide the receipt
> that he claims he has?
>
He did provide receipts. I saw them personally on my TV screen. But
there is no proof yet that the receiving account belonged to
Yuschenko's campaign.
>
> ...cut...
>
> > > Sure. Having 40% Russians/Russophones insures a lot of good will
> > > between a large portion of the population and Russia.
> > >
> >
> > If you don't like Russians in Ukraine, you can start getting rid of
> > them by returning Krym, which was stolen from Russia by the Soviet
> > Communist rulers in 1956.
>
> Then will you give us Kuban and parts of Kursk oblast, as well as Brest
> in Belorus?
>
When exactly were these territories part of Ukraine?
>
> And recall a large part of Crimea will go not to Russia
> but to the tatars.
>
Ye, but Tatars are part of the Russian Federation.
>
> My uncle, retired Soviet general, had a more radical solution in line
> with his Soviet training. Shoot them all...
>
Whom? Tatars?
>
> > You can't both forcibly occupy Russian people and complain of their presence at the same time, can you?
>
> I'm not complaining of their presence. Rather, I am pointing out the
> disadvantage they present to Ukraine (they also present advantages).
>
Then give them and their land back to Russia.
>
> > > > > indicates that a weak Ukraine without a sense of self would
> > > > > drift towards the east, not west.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > So may a strong Ukraine too. If Russia is natural-resource based and
> > > > Ukraine - industrial-based, the two will compliment each other.
> > >
> > > True. But such strong Russian links come with a necessarily bad
> > > cultural price, that is not the case with Polish links...
> > >
> >
> > Oh my god! Being a Catholic, you just don't understand the dangers of
> > Polish imperialism to the Ukrainian culture.
> >
> > For example, are you aware of the enormous current efforts on the part
> > of the Catholic Church to proslethyse (sp.?) among Orthodox Christians
> > in Belarus, Ukraine and Russia?
>
> Sure. They are converting people from atheism to Catholicism. How
> many Orthodox Christians do you think would convert? Do not presume
> that the entire population of Ukraine or Russia are Orthodox.
>
Those atheists, who are converting to Christianity, would have
converted to Orthodox if not for the Catholic proslethysers.
>
> > Look at Belarus as an example of a target for Polish imperialism.
>
> Belorus is strategically important. I doubt its people care too much
> who rules over them, given their passive support for Lukashenka. Once
> Yushchenko is secure he and the Poles can work on taking that miserable
> country from out from Russia's grasp.
>
This Polish or Ukrainian intervention in Belarus is what Russia doesn't
want and has a full right to resist, especially given that Belarus and
Russia are formally and legally part of the same Union.
>
> > > ...cut...
> > >
> > > > > > > True. Although a strong Slavic and Orthodox Ukraine would still be a
> > > > > > > European - not Eurasian - Ukraine and thus not necessarily opposed to
> > > > > > > Poland nor allied to Russia/Byelorus.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yep, many more Russians insist on being "Eurasian" than do Ukrainians.
> > > > > > In particular, Russian joint maneuvers with China seem stupid, childish
> > > > > > and near-sighted.
> > > > >
> > > > > That's because Russians *are* Eurasians, while Ukrainians are not.
> > > >
> > > > Total nonsense. They are what the current political situation tells
> > > > them to be. In the late 1980s-early 1990s very few Russians viewed
> > > > themselves as Eurasian.
> > >
> > > Not the ones I have known. But this could be a whole other thread...
> > >
> >
> > You probably confuse "Ugro-Finnic" with "Asian". Finns are Europeans,
> > you know.
>
> How about Tatars, Bashkirs, etc.?
>
Yes, Russia has a sizable Muslim/Asian population. But not as large as
France (Muslim/African) (percentage-wise). Germany and England also
have large Asian/African populations. Does this make them
EuroAfrican/Asian countries?
>
> Volga Tatars are largely assimilated Finno-Ugric people themselves. Are they Europeans?
>
I am not familiar with them. They probably are Europeans of Muslim
persuasion.
vkar...@yahoo.com
> vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > If you don't like Russians in Ukriane, you can start getting rid of
> > them by returning Krym, which was stolen from Russia by the Soviet
> > Communist rulers in 1956. You can't both forcibly occupy Russian people
> > and complain of their presence at the same time, can you?
> >
> But who is forcibly occupying those Russian people?
>
You are talking about the Crimea/Krym? Ukrainian government is forcibly
occupying those Russian people, who else.
>
> There is no soviet style iron curtain holding
> these people prisoner.
>
Let's use your logic above. But who is forcibly occupying those Chechen
people in Chechnya? There is no soviet style iron curtain holding
these people prisoner. If the Chechens don't like Russian rule, they
are free to emigrate. Right?
And USA is not holding Iraqis people prisoner in Iraq either. The
Iraqis, who don't like the Ameircan occupation, can also leave. En
masse.
So, yes, the Crimeans, the Chechens, the Iraqis are all allowed to
abandon their homes, property and businesses in their homelands, and go
to some refugee camps in some foreign lands, where they may soon die of
starvation. But why should they? What kind of a monster would suggest
that idea?
>
> Neither is Ukraine forcibly
> relocating the Russian people out of Krym on the
> model that the Russians have done to the Tatars,
> and the Chechens.
>
The RUSSIANS didn't do that. The Soviets did. And these Soviets
included both Russians AND Ukrainains. So, Ukrianians are just as
guilty. Moreover, this was done on the behest of the Georgian man named
Stalin. Georgian, not Russian or Ukrainian!
cherni...@hotmail.com
vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> The Black Monk wrote:
> > vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > ...cut...
> >
> > Or the fact that a mayor who was
> > giving Khodorkovsky a hard time just happened to be shot on Kh.'s
> > birthday).
> >
>
> Why would Khodorkovsky want to kill his opponent precisely on
> Khodorkovsky's birthday? To attract police's attention to Khodorkovsky
> as a possible suspect? Makes no sense.
He could act with impunity during Yeltsin's time, and was a younger man
then. And indeed, nothing bad happened to him over it - and wouldn't
have, had he stayed on the right side of Putin.
> If I were to order somebody's murder, I would have done that on any day OTHER than my birthday.
Well, obviously you aren't a thug who became a billionaire in your late
20's and were full of feelings of invincibility/omnipotence.
> This is paranoia on your part.
No, rather realism.
> > > > > > Yes, Poland and Russia are also threats from that perspective. But
> > > > > > Russia can also help strategically with its oil and as a global
> > > > > > counterforce to the USA.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Right on. And Russia can also help Ukraine with its oil, gas and other
> > > > > resources. Ukraine simply can't survive without those.
> > > >
> > > > But Russian help comes with the price of diminished sovereignty and
> > > > cultural imperialism. This is obviously not the case for France and
> > > > Germany.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Yes, because these two are economically strong. But Ukraine is in
> > > danger of becoming a victim of economic, military, political, and
> > > cultural imperialism at the hands of ANY country that offers it its
> > > help. The biggest threat comes from the country that exhibits 99% of
> > > modern World's imperialism: USA.
> >
> > Well, as we have seen, USA is pretty ineffective.
> >
>
> Yes, USA is very ineffective in maintaining law and order in occupied
> countries and in protecting innocent civilians from genocide at the
> hands of US allies/puppets, as we have seen in Kosovo and Iraq. So
> what?
>
> But USA is extremely effective at invading foreign countries on
> fraudulent charges,
It cannot going to invade Ukraine.
> at staging coups and imposing its violent puppet
> juntas, at taking over other countries' economies, and at flooding
> other cultures with comic books, with Hollywood trash and with the
> primitive drum beats called rap and hip-hop "music".
The latter poison occurs regardless of American policy. It is like a
virus that spreads thgrough globalization rather than government
actions.
> >
> > They've basically
> > succeeded in creating a Shiite theocracy in Iraq.
> >
>
> I doubt it. Haven't you heard that Al Qaeda, which is now a major force
> in Iraq, has declared a war on Shiites in Iraq and is committing 3
> terrorist acts per day?
Sure, terrorism is the war of the weak. Once the Shiites are in full
control their massacres of the Sunnis will take care of the problem.
The Sunnis in Iran are pretty quiet, you know.
> > So it's not so dangerous culturally.
> >
>
> Sure it is. Ask the Sunnis.
>
> >
> > In contrast, near neighbor Russia could be far
> > more effective in its imperialism.
> >
>
> When was the last time Russia invaded a foreign country and bombed
> innocent civilians and TV stations in it?
The situation in Ukraine is different...
> > > >
> > > > Briefly, and unsuccessfully, with disastrous consequences for Poland.
> > > > Most Poles have learned from their past mistakes. Have Russians?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Poles have learnt nothing. For many centuries Poland ruled over Ukraine
> > > and Belarus.
> >
> > This not a correct characterization. The Polish Commonwealth was
> > rather loosely organized. The most powerful figures in Ukraine for
> > much of its history during Commonwealth times were not Poles but
> > Ukrainian magnates. Thus the first printing of the Orthodox Bible was
> > in Lviv,
> >
>
> The first printing of the Orthodox Bible was in Prague.
Really? I thought that it was Fedorov in Lviv. I could be wrong...
...cut...
...Timoshenko/Yanukovich stuff cut...
Okay, I agree. Your are correct. Timoshenko can not be considered a
thief and Yanukovich cannot be considered a rapist. However,
Yanukovich CAN be considered a violent street criminal (he beat up the
guy that he robbed). So I should have said, Russia sent its spin
doctor and hundreds of millions of dollars in an attempt to install a
pro-Russian violent street criminal as president.
regards,
BM
No, Russians. The guy is pretty cynical and refers to his Russian
ex-colleagues as bydlo. He kept the secret of being not some prole but
a count on his father's side as a treasured secret for all those years.
> > > You can't both forcibly occupy Russian people and complain of their presence at the same time, can you?
> >
> > I'm not complaining of their presence. Rather, I am pointing out the
> > disadvantage they present to Ukraine (they also present advantages).
> >
>
> Then give them and their land back to Russia.
Well, it's just not their land. They came onto Ukrainian land as
settlers.
...cut...
> > > For example, are you aware of the enormous current efforts on the part
> > > of the Catholic Church to proslethyse (sp.?) among Orthodox Christians
> > > in Belarus, Ukraine and Russia?
> >
> > Sure. They are converting people from atheism to Catholicism. How
> > many Orthodox Christians do you think would convert? Do not presume
> > that the entire population of Ukraine or Russia are Orthodox.
> >
>
> Those atheists, who are converting to Christianity, would have
> converted to Orthodox if not for the Catholic proslethysers.
Not necessarily. The Russian Church is well associated with the KGB
and morally compromised for a lot of people. I myself, for example,
witnessed a sports car almost run a guy over in Moscow while driving
onto and parking on the sidewalk. Emerging from the car, with a
leather jacket over his robes, was an Orthodox priest. Passersby by
had rather uncharitable things to say about Orthodoxy, then. A friend
of mine, former officer in the FSB, was working closely with Orthodox
priests and told some rather shocking stopries about the parties they
had...
A LOT of people interested in Christianity turn to Catholicism for
reasons such as this. And at any rate, there is no way that the
Catholic Church has as many resources _within_ Russia as the Orthodox
Church has, so the "competition" is hardly fair.
> > > > > > That's because Russians *are* Eurasians, while Ukrainians are not.
> > > > >
> > > > > Total nonsense. They are what the current political situation tells
> > > > > them to be. In the late 1980s-early 1990s very few Russians viewed
> > > > > themselves as Eurasian.
> > > >
> > > > Not the ones I have known. But this could be a whole other thread...
> > > >
> > >
> > > You probably confuse "Ugro-Finnic" with "Asian". Finns are Europeans,
> > > you know.
> >
> > How about Tatars, Bashkirs, etc.?
> >
>
> Yes, Russia has a sizable Muslim/Asian population. But not as large as
> France (Muslim/African) (percentage-wise). Germany and England also
> have large Asian/African populations. Does this make them
> EuroAfrican/Asian countries?
No, because those Asians/Africans were not invovled in German and
English national development over centuries. From Vernadsky:
>From Vernadsky's "The Mongols and Russia" p. 383, Tatar influence on
the Russian ruling class:
"By 1450 the Tatar (Turkish) language had become fashionable at the
court of Grand Duke Vasilii II ofMoscow, which was strongly resented
by his opponents. Vasili II was accused of excessive love of the
Tatars and their speech (i rech ikh)."
The influence of Tatar culture and customs in Russia can thus be kind
of compared to the influence of French culture/langauge on the people
of England due to the Norman conquest. Think about the linguisitc
differences between English and German.
Tatars and Russian religious life:
"The case of Peter Tsarevich of the Horde, founder of a monastary in
Rostov...a prominant 15th century religious leader who also founded a
monastary, St. Pafnuti of Borovsk, was grandson of a baskak. In the
16th century a boyar son of Tatar extraction, Bulgak by name, was
ordained priest and after than there was always a priest in the
family down to Father Sergius Bulgakov, a well-known Russian theologian
of
the 20tth century".
>From Vernadsky, "The Mongols and Russia", pages 363-365, Tatar
influence
on the military:
"Hence it was unavoidable that the Russians should introduce some
Mongol patterns into their own army. For example, the standard
division of the Muscovite army of the late 15th and the 16th
centuries into five large units certainly followed the Mongol setup.
These units were known in Russian as polki. They were as follows:
the center (bolshoy polk), the right arm division (pravaia ruka),
the left arm division (levaia ruka), the advance guard (peredovoy
polk) and the rearguard (storozhevoy polk). The phrases left and
right arm correspond to the Turkish ong kol and son kol. As with
the Mongols, the right arm unit was considered more important in the
Muscovite army than the left arm."...
"The Russian(sic) army of the Kievan period consisted of two main
parts: the prince's retinue (druzhina) and the city militia under the
authority of the chiliarch (tysiatsky). The rural population was not
subject to mobilization and as a rule did not take any part in the
campaigns. The Mongol invasion changed the whole picture. First of
all, for the needs of their own armed forces, the Mongols established
a rigid system of universal conscription, including in it the entire
rural population. Second, by destroying or depopulating the Russian
cities and curbing the authority of the veche, they shattered the
foundations of the city militia system..."
"...In connection with the decline of the city militia...a new
office was created, that of the okolnichi, whose functions corrsponded
to those of the bukaul in the army of the Golden Horde. The okolnichi
is first mentioned in Smolensk in 1284. This was during the reign of
Grand Duke Fedor who, as we have seen, spent many years at the khan's
court, married a Mongol princess, and, in general, might be called a
"Mongolophile"."[so much for the claim of little interaction between
Mongols and Rus' prices]
"...It was on the basis of the the Mongol system [of conscription]
that Dmitry Donskoy succeeded in mobilizing the army with which he
defeated Mamay at Kulikovo Pole."
Also, cannons and firearms were introduced in Russia from the east
rather than the west.
More on Tatars and the the Russian rulers:
Boyar families of Mongol/Tatar descent:
Veliaminov-Zernovs (included Saburovs and Godunovs), Arsenievs and
Bakhmetevs.
In the 17th century, of Russia's noble families, 229
were of Western European (including German) origin, 223 of Polish
and Lithuanian origin (some of whom must have been of West Russian
[Galician or Byelorusin]) origin), 156 of tatar and other Oriental
origin, 168 families belonged to the House of Rurik and 42 were of
unspecified "Russian" origin.
Thus about 17% of the Russian nobility had Mongol/Tatar origins.
-----------------------
And contrasting European Ukraine with Asian Russia (the Russophobia of
these European travelers is exactly Asiophobia):
A French diplomat, Jean Baluse, whose memoirs are in the
National Library in Paris, on Mazepa:
"At his court he has two German doctors, with whom he converses in
their tongue; to the Italian masters of whom there are several in
the castle, he speaks in the Italian language. I spoke with the
master of Ukraine in the Latin language, inasmuch he assured me
that he was not very fluent in French...I do not know if this
statement of his concealed a special motive, for I myself saw
French and Dutch newspapers in his study."
The German Friedrich Weber in 1720 about the son of Hetman Apostol:
"Although he was never abroad, he speaks fluently Latin, French,
Italian, German, Russian and Polish..."
Austrian diplomat J.G. Korb, 1700-1701, on Russians:
"The people are rude of letters, and wanting in that virtuous
discipline by which the mind is cultivated...John Barclay, in
his Mirror of Souls, describes at length how this race, born for
slavery, becomes ferocious at the least trace of liberty...Humility
more solidly crouching the very Turks do not entertain not for
their Ottoman sceptre. They esteem other races as well by their
own character [this speaks for fd's portrayal of Russian
imperialists as being no beeter than European ones - B.]".
"Devoid of honest education, they esteem deceit to be the heigh of
wisdom. They have no shame of lying, no blush for a detected
fraud" [Do you not see a return to form of Russia's vulgar new
elite, witht heir mat' and their pride in theft and deceit? Is
homo sovieticus not an expression of Russification? - Babai]
About Kozaks Korb writes:
"this stout race excels the Muscovites, both in the art of war and in
bravery of soul"
Danish envoy in Moscow Jul Just, 1709-1712:
"Although at the present time the Russians in their conduct are
trying to emulate in monkey fashion the other nations, and though
they don French attire and in their external appearance they appear
more civilized, inwardly, however, there sits a cholop"
"The tsar's entourage behaved without conscience and shame; they
shouted, whistled, belched, spat, berated each other, and even
shamelessly spat in the faces of decent people"
[sounds like a gathering of New Russians in one of Moscow's more
expensive restaurants, or for that matter, the "liberators" of
Lviv in 1944 - Babai]
Just described how all of the teachers at the Moscow gymnasium were
either Ukrainians or Byelorussians ("Orthodox from Poland").
Cultural level of the Russian leaders (contrast this with the
descriptions of Mazepa above):
"Prince Menshikov, a figure second to the tsar, could neither read nor
write. Chancellor Golovkin knew no language but Russian; not a single
one of the tsar's dignitaries could speak Latin, with the exception of
Musin-Pushkin, who was fluent in that language. Even Tsar Peter,
whose 'enlightenment' was widely known, spoke only one Western
European language, namely Dutch, and even here the tsar had
difficulty in making himself understood."
Just contrasts this with Ukraine:
"The inhabitants of the Chernihiv province, as well as the entire
population of kozak Ukraine, are known for their politeness and
cleanliness, dressing neatly and keeping their homes immaculately
clean."
"Korolevets is a big town...the streets are beautiful, such as I
never saw in Russia; the buildings are stately, strong and clean
and are along the streets as in Denmark..."
The envoy visited many Ukrainian dignitaries, all of whom he found
to be extremely learned and educated. The ordinary minks in the
Pecherska Lavra spoke fluently with him in Latin. He was greatly
surprised to see the Ukrainian peasants in many villages going to
church with prayer books, indicating that they were literate.
In Podolia, in Nemyriv, "the meanest building was much cleaner than
the most sumptuous palace in Moscow".
An English author, Joseph Marshall, compared Ukrainian villages to
those of England or Flanders. "The race of the Ukraine are civilized
people and the best husbandmen in the Russian empire."
Etc. etc. You get the picture.
--------------
regards,
BM
vkar...@yahoo.com
> vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > The Black Monk wrote:
> > > vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >
> > > Or the fact that a mayor who was
> > > giving Khodorkovsky a hard time just happened to be shot on Kh.'s
> > > birthday).
> > >
> >
> > Why would Khodorkovsky want to kill his opponent precisely on
> > Khodorkovsky's birthday? To attract police's attention to Khodorkovsky
> > as a possible suspect? Makes no sense.
>
> He could act with impunity during Yeltsin's time, and was a younger man
> then. And indeed, nothing bad happened to him over it - and wouldn't
> have, had he stayed on the right side of Putin.
>
> > If I were to order somebody's murder, I would have done that on any day OTHER than my birthday.
>
> Well, obviously you aren't a thug who became a billionaire in your late
> 20's and were full of feelings of invincibility/omnipotence.
>
> > This is paranoia on your part.
>
> No, rather realism.
>
Look, I find it absolutely astounding that an American like you would
fall for Putin's propaganda that Khodorkovsky was somehow more corrupt
or criminal that the other Russian and Ukrainian oligarchs like
Tymoshenko, Deripaska, Abramovich, etc.
The reason why Khodorkovsky is being prosecuted while the other
oligarchs aren't is because Khodorkovsky dared to openly challenge the
Putin regime and dared to publicly brag that he gave money to
opposition parties.
>
> > > > > > > Yes, Poland and Russia are also threats from that perspective. But
> > > > > > > Russia can also help strategically with its oil and as a global
> > > > > > > counterforce to the USA.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Right on. And Russia can also help Ukraine with its oil, gas and other
> > > > > > resources. Ukraine simply can't survive without those.
> > > > >
> > > > > But Russian help comes with the price of diminished sovereignty and
> > > > > cultural imperialism. This is obviously not the case for France and
> > > > > Germany.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yes, because these two are economically strong. But Ukraine is in
> > > > danger of becoming a victim of economic, military, political, and
> > > > cultural imperialism at the hands of ANY country that offers it its
> > > > help. The biggest threat comes from the country that exhibits 99% of
> > > > modern World's imperialism: USA.
> > >
> > > Well, as we have seen, USA is pretty ineffective.
> > >
> >
> > Yes, USA is very ineffective in maintaining law and order in occupied
> > countries and in protecting innocent civilians from genocide at the
> > hands of US allies/puppets, as we have seen in Kosovo and Iraq. So
> > what?
> >
> > But USA is extremely effective at invading foreign countries on
> > fraudulent charges,
>
> It cannot going to invade Ukraine.
>
Heck, if Ukraine behaves itself, then there will be no reason for USA
to bomb Ukraine. But if it dares to challenge USA policies, there is
always the pretext of a "genocide" against Crimean Tatars, along the
lines of the Kosovo aggression. First, some foreign terrorists will
start bombing Kiev in the name of "Tatar independence". Then they will
start killing Ukrainian policemen. The Ukrainian authorities will
respond, which will then justify the charge of "genocide" and soon the
Ukrainian trains, bridges, apartment buildings, TV stations and the
Chinese Embassy in Kiev will be bombed. After that, NATO/KFOR will
occupy Crimea, and the ethnic Russians, Ukrainians and Gypsies will be
ethnically cleansed out of Crimea, while all Orthodox Christian
churches will be demolished. Just like it was done in Kosovo. So behave
yourselves! :-) :-) :-)
>
> > at staging coups and imposing its violent puppet
> > juntas, at taking over other countries' economies, and at flooding
> > other cultures with comic books, with Hollywood trash and with the
> > primitive drum beats called rap and hip-hop "music".
>
> The latter poison occurs regardless of American policy. It is like a
> virus that spreads thgrough globalization rather than government
> actions.
>
True too. Too true.
>
> > >
> > > They've basically
> > > succeeded in creating a Shiite theocracy in Iraq.
> > >
> >
> > I doubt it. Haven't you heard that Al Qaeda, which is now a major force
> > in Iraq, has declared a war on Shiites in Iraq and is committing 3
> > terrorist acts per day?
>
> Sure, terrorism is the war of the weak. Once the Shiites are in full
> control their massacres of the Sunnis will take care of the problem.
> The Sunnis in Iran are pretty quiet, you know.
>
Yes, but Al Qaeda has declared was on the Iraqi Sunnis not on Iranian
Sunnis. And thanks to Bush, Iraq is now teeming with terrorists.
>
> > > So it's not so dangerous culturally.
> > >
> >
> > Sure it is. Ask the Sunnis.
> >
> > > In contrast, near neighbor Russia could be far
> > > more effective in its imperialism.
> >
> > When was the last time Russia invaded a foreign country and bombed
> > innocent civilians and TV stations in it?
>
> The situation in Ukraine is different...
>
I am not sure what you mean. Are you saying that Russia is going to
invade Ukraine the way USA invades foreign countries?
> > > > >
> > > > > Briefly, and unsuccessfully, with disastrous consequences for Poland.
> > > > > Most Poles have learned from their past mistakes. Have Russians?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Poles have learnt nothing. For many centuries Poland ruled over Ukraine
> > > > and Belarus.
> > >
> > > This not a correct characterization. The Polish Commonwealth was
> > > rather loosely organized. The most powerful figures in Ukraine for
> > > much of its history during Commonwealth times were not Poles but
> > > Ukrainian magnates. Thus the first printing of the Orthodox Bible was
> > > in Lviv,
> >
> > The first printing of the Orthodox Bible was in Prague.
>
> Really? I thought that it was Fedorov in Lviv. I could be wrong...
>
First of all, what was a Russian guy named Ivan Fedorov doing in such
supposedly "un-Russian" place like Lviv?
And second, despite Soviet propaganda, Fedorov wasn't first:
http://www.lib.msu.su/slavbibl/slavbibl.html
The University's collection contains the first printed edition of the
Slavonic Bible, the work of the famous Byelorussian printer, scientist,
and educator Franciscus Skorina. The University Library houses the
Books of Joshua, Ruth, Judges and Kings,
***********************published in Prague in 1518-1519************.
Skorina himself had translated these texts, intended primarily for
teaching reading skills, into the Byelorussian version of the Old
Church Slavonic. These remarkable editions contain the author's
prefaces, epilogues, and comments. Franciscus Skorina was also the
first to use title pages, foliation, running titles, and elaborate
illustrations in Cyrillic printing. The beautiful artistic and
paleographic design makes these books an outstanding landmark of
Cyrillic printing.
http://www.risu.org.ua/eng/news/article;4828/
The Ostrih Bible, the first complete edition of the Bible in the Old
Church Slavonic language, was printed by Ivan Fedorov ***************in
1581*********************************.
>
> > > > > into Ukraine, and
> > > > > pouring 300 million dollars to support a convicted criminal, rapist,
> > > > > mafioso for President, who promised to make Russian a state language
> > > > > and to enter into closer union with Russia, is a form of economic
> > > > > warfare, no?
>
> Okay, I agree. Your are correct. Timoshenko can not be considered a
> thief and Yanukovich cannot be considered a rapist. However,
> Yanukovich CAN be considered a violent street criminal (he beat up the
> guy that he robbed).
>
Please give me the concrete evidence for the above story. More than the
words of one politician badmouthing another one.
> > >
> > > > > Sure. Having 40% Russians/Russophones insures a lot of good will
> > > > > between a large portion of the population and Russia.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > If you don't like Russians in Ukraine, you can start getting rid of
> > > > them by returning Krym, which was stolen from Russia by the Soviet
> > > > Communist rulers in 1956.
> > >
> > > Then will you give us Kuban and parts of Kursk oblast, as well as Brest
> > > in Belorus?
> >
> > When exactly were these territories part of Ukraine?
> >
You didn't answer my question:
When exactly were these territories part of Ukraine?
> > >
> > > And recall a large part of Crimea will go not to Russia
> > > but to the tatars.
> >
> > Ye, but Tatars are part of the Russian Federation.
> >
> > >
> > > My uncle, retired Soviet general, had a more radical solution in line
> > > with his Soviet training. Shoot them all...
> >
> > Whom? Tatars?
>
> No, Russians. The guy is pretty cynical and refers to his Russian
> ex-colleagues as bydlo. He kept the secret of being not some prole but
> a count on his father's side as a treasured secret for all those years.
>
What a jerk. So, his "solution" is to shoot 10 million ethnic Russians
living in Ukraine and 10 million ethnic Ukrainians living in Russia? A
"final solution"? What about the 50 million part-Russians
part-Ukrainians, living in the two countries? Shoot them halfway?
>
> > > > You can't both forcibly occupy Russian people and complain of their presence at the same time, can you?
> > >
> > > I'm not complaining of their presence. Rather, I am pointing out the
> > > disadvantage they present to Ukraine (they also present advantages).
> > >
> >
> > Then give them and their land back to Russia.
>
> Well, it's just not their land. They came onto Ukrainian land as
> settlers.
>
Crimea was Ukrainian land?!!!!!!!!!
>
> > > > For example, are you aware of the enormous current efforts on the part
> > > > of the Catholic Church to proslethyse (sp.?) among Orthodox Christians
> > > > in Belarus, Ukraine and Russia?
> > >
> > > Sure. They are converting people from atheism to Catholicism. How
> > > many Orthodox Christians do you think would convert? Do not presume
> > > that the entire population of Ukraine or Russia are Orthodox.
> > >
> >
> > Those atheists, who are converting to Christianity, would have
> > converted to Orthodox if not for the Catholic proslethysers.
>
> Not necessarily. The Russian Church is well associated with the KGB
> and morally compromised for a lot of people. I myself, for example,
> witnessed a sports car almost run a guy over in Moscow while driving
> onto and parking on the sidewalk. Emerging from the car, with a
> leather jacket over his robes, was an Orthodox priest. Passersby by
> had rather uncharitable things to say about Orthodoxy, then. A friend
> of mine, former officer in the FSB, was working closely with Orthodox
> priests and told some rather shocking stopries about the parties they
> had...
>
> A LOT of people interested in Christianity turn to Catholicism for
> reasons such as this.
>
You may want to read up on what has happened in the USSR in the last 15
years or so. Do you know that USSR no longer exists? Do you know that
KGB no longer exists? Do you know that the new Orthodox priests in
Russia, Ukraine and Belarus don't have anything to do with the security
agencies and are no wealthier than Catholic priests? Are you aware that
there is Orthodox Church in Ukraine which is not even affiliated with
Moscow?
>
> And at any rate, there is no way that the
> Catholic Church has as many resources _within_ Russia as the Orthodox
> Church has, so the "competition" is hardly fair.
>
I was talking about Belarus and Ukraine.
>
> > > > > > > That's because Russians *are* Eurasians, while Ukrainians are not.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Total nonsense. They are what the current political situation tells
> > > > > > them to be. In the late 1980s-early 1990s very few Russians viewed
> > > > > > themselves as Eurasian.
> > > > >
> > > > > Not the ones I have known. But this could be a whole other thread...
> > > >
> > > > You probably confuse "Ugro-Finnic" with "Asian". Finns are Europeans,
> > > > you know.
> > >
> > > How about Tatars, Bashkirs, etc.?
> >
> > Yes, Russia has a sizable Muslim/Asian population. But not as large as
> > France (Muslim/African) (percentage-wise). Germany and England also
> > have large Asian/African populations. Does this make them
> > EuroAfrican/Asian countries?
>
> No, because those Asians/Africans were not invovled in German and
> English national development over centuries. From Vernadsky:
>
> >From Vernadsky's "The Mongols and Russia" p. 383, Tatar influence on
> the Russian ruling class:
>
> "By 1450 the Tatar (Turkish) language had become fashionable at the
> court of Grand Duke Vasilii II ofMoscow, which was strongly resented
> by his opponents. Vasili II was accused of excessive love of the
> Tatars and their speech (i rech ikh)."
>
So what? Most European people are actually descendants of Asiatic
peoples: Goths, Vandals, Huns, Finno-Hungarians, Bulgars, etc.
And the Spanish statehood was developed under many centuries of Arab
rule form Africa.
Is Spain a EuroAfrican country?
>
>
> >From Vernadsky, "The Mongols and Russia", pages 363-365, Tatar
> influence
> on the military:
>
>
> "Hence it was unavoidable that the Russians should introduce some
> Mongol patterns into their own army.
>
Yes, the Mongols had the best military tactics and everybody in Europe
and Middle East was wise to emulate them.
And the gunpowder comes from China.
>
> [Tons of irrelevant well-known stuff about the Mongol occupation of Russia deleted.]
>
>
> "...It was on the basis of the the Mongol system [of conscription]
> that Dmitry Donskoy succeeded in mobilizing the army with which he
> defeated Mamay at Kulikovo Pole."
>
I love the infantile level of your arguments.
>
> Also, cannons and firearms were introduced in Russia from the east
> rather than the west.
>
Yes, I know. A lot of best military innovations like gunpowder come
form Mongolia and China, who were much more advanced than medieval (sp)
Europe.
>
> More on Tatars and the the Russian rulers:
> Boyar families of Mongol/Tatar descent: Veliaminov-Zernovs
> (included Saburovs and Godunovs), Arsenievs and
> Bakhmetevs.
>
Yes, we know all that. Pushkin was an Ethiopian, Lermontov was a Scott,
Prince Yusupov was a direct descendant of Prophet Mohammed, and all
that. :-)
>
> In the 17th century, of Russia's noble families, 229
> were of Western European (including German) origin, 223 of Polish
> and Lithuanian origin (some of whom must have been of West Russian
> [Galician or Byelorusin]) origin), 156 of tatar and other Oriental
> origin, 168 families belonged to the House of Rurik and 42 were of
> unspecified "Russian" origin.
>
> Thus about 17% of the Russian nobility had Mongol/Tatar origins.
>
Yes, 17% of Russian nobility had one distant Tatar ancestor. Just as
Pushkin had one African greatgreatgrandfather. But if 17% of Russian
nobility had 20% of Tatar blood in them, then Tatar blood accounted for
17%*20% = 3.4% of the total noble blood.
So even in the 17th century most Russian nobility (83%) were European:
Scandinavians, Poles, Lithuanians, Germans, Rusans (Galicians,
Russians, Belarusans), etc. By mid-19th century, there were many new
aristocrats that came from Russia itself, as well as places like
Georgia. Plus the huge influx of German, Danish and other Western
European blood. Russian Tsars were Dano-German. But there was no influx
of Tatar blood into nobility. I bet by mid-19th century, the Tatar
blood made up less than 2% of the Russian nobility. That's negligible,
wouldn't you say? I bet Arab blood makes up for more than 10% of the
Spanish nobility.
>
> And contrasting European Ukraine with Asian Russia (the Russophobia of
> these European travelers is exactly Asiophobia):
>
> A French diplomat, Jean Baluse, whose memoirs are in the
> National Library in Paris, on Mazepa:
>
>
> "At his court he has two German doctors, with whom he converses in
> their tongue; to the Italian masters of whom there are several in
> the castle, he speaks in the Italian language. I spoke with the
> master of Ukraine in the Latin language, inasmuch he assured me
> that he was not very fluent in French...
>
Too bad for Mazepa. His contemporary Peter the Great in Russia was
fluent in many foreign languages like German and Dutch.
>
> I do not know if this
> statement of his concealed a special motive, for I myself saw
> French and Dutch newspapers in his study."
>
I bet Mazepa had translators who translated these newspapers for him.
And if the Russian Tsar visited Mazepa (did he?), he would have
translated these Dutch newspapers for Mazepa.
So, Mazepa had several Europeans in his court. But not as many as did
his contemporary Russian Tsar Peter the great and his successor
Catherine the Great, who herself was German and spoke many language and
corresponded with French philosophers. St Petersburg was built by
Italian masters.
So, the Mazepa court had maybe half as many Western Europeans as did
the Russian court of his times. What does that prove? That Ukrainians
are half as European as Russians? :-)
>
> The German Friedrich Weber in 1720 about the son of Hetman Apostol:
>
>
> "Although he was never abroad, he speaks fluently Latin, French,
> Italian, German, Russian and Polish..."
>
> Austrian diplomat J.G. Korb, 1700-1701, on Russians:
>
>
> "The people are rude of letters,
>
>
Russia became westernized by Peter the Great, which happened just AFTER
1700. So, your demagogical use of outdated material is duly noted.
>
> About Kozaks Korb writes:
>
> "this stout race excels the Muscovites, both in the art of war and in
> bravery of soul"
>
Sorry but I am tired of your pissing contest as to how Ukrainians are
more educated, more brave and more militaristic than Russians. What
does it have to do with our argument as to who is European and who is
Asian? I guess you point is that Europeans are more brave and
militaristic than Asians? :-)
I bet if I wanted to emulate you and waste my time digging up dirt on
other ethnic groups, I would find lots of opinions that Russians are
brave and educated, and that Ukrainians aren't. But I value my time
not to engage in this childish pissing.
Let me just tell you one thing: most Russians are less childish, less
arrogant, less demagogical, less snobbish and less braggart than
Ukrainians like you.
>
> Danish envoy in Moscow Jul Just, 1709-1712:
>
>
> "Although at the present time the Russians in their conduct are
> trying to emulate in monkey fashion the other nations, and though
> they don French attire and in their external appearance they appear
> more civilized, inwardly, however, there sits a cholop"
>
>
> "The tsar's entourage behaved without conscience and shame; they
> shouted, whistled, belched, spat, berated each other, and even
> shamelessly spat in the faces of decent people"
>
> [sounds like a gathering of New Russians in one of Moscow's more
> expensive restaurants,
>
I have been to every expensive restaurant in Moscow and have never
seen anything like that. Maybe you are confusing Moscow with Kyiv or
Lviv? Were you describing a gathering of Tymoshenko's friends in one of
Kyiv's more expensive restaurants?
In Moscow, people behave in restaurants much more civilized and subdued
than do, say, Americans. Infinitely more civilized! Everybody in elite
Moscow restaurants (even Ukrainian visitors! :-)) is dressed in formal
suits and behaves like they were poster boys for Good Manners.
>
> or for that matter, the "liberators" of
> Lviv in 1944 - Babai]
>
>
> Just described how all of the teachers at the Moscow gymnasium were
> either Ukrainians or Byelorussians ("Orthodox from Poland").
>
I am getting tired of replying to this never-ending childish garbage of
yours...
>
> Cultural level of the Russian leaders (contrast this with the
> descriptions of Mazepa above):
>
There is more?!! you are truly a horn of plenty!
>
> "Prince Menshikov, a figure second to the tsar, could neither read nor
> write. Chancellor Golovkin knew no language but Russian; not a single
> one of the tsar's dignitaries could speak Latin, with the exception of
> Musin-Pushkin, who was fluent in that language. Even Tsar Peter,
> whose 'enlightenment' was widely known, spoke only one Western
> European language, namely Dutch, and even here the tsar had
> difficulty in making himself understood."
>
> Just contrasts this with Ukraine:
>
> "The inhabitants of the Chernihiv province, as well as the entire
> population of kozak Ukraine, are known for their politeness and
> cleanliness, dressing neatly and keeping their homes immaculately
> clean."
>
> "Korolevets is a big town...the streets are beautiful, such as I
> never saw in Russia; the buildings are stately, strong and clean
> and are along the streets as in Denmark..."
>
>
> The envoy visited many Ukrainian dignitaries, all of whom he found
> to be extremely learned and educated. The ordinary minks in the
> Pecherska Lavra spoke fluently with him in Latin. He was greatly
> surprised to see the Ukrainian peasants in many villages going to
> church with prayer books, indicating that they were literate.
>
>
> In Podolia, in Nemyriv, "the meanest building was much cleaner than
> the most sumptuous palace in Moscow".
>
What does that have to do with Asia vs. Europe? So, to you, European
villages like in Albania or Spain are cleaner than Asian villages like
in China or Japan? LOL.
>
> An English author, Joseph Marshall, compared Ukrainian villages to
> those of England or Flanders. "The race of the Ukraine are civilized
> people and the best husbandmen in the Russian empire."
>
I will trust you on that. I am not an expert on agricultural husbandry.
>
> Etc. etc. You get the picture.
>
Yes, I do: you think that you are the "best husbandman", and that you
are much better at sex, war, bravery, education, intelligence and
cleanliness than a lowly Russian like myself.
Overall impression: a very impressive performance on your part. You
must have spent 50 hours of your life digging up this outdated
one-sided anti-Russian and anti-Asian filth. Have you considered
publishing this as a dissertation? I bet a lot of people in Latvia will
be glad to give you an honorary Ph.D. for this anti-Russian
dissertation.
I just shudder to think that there exist hateful small-minded people
like yourself who devote their whole life to digging up dirt on other
ethnic groups and on proving their own tribe's superiority.
I wish you luck in finding somebody else to engage in this pissing
contest. And even more luck in finding a woman who can tolerate such
behavior. Maybe you superior ability as a "husbandman" will come in
handy? :-)
vkar...@yahoo.com
> vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > The Black Monk wrote:
> > > vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >
> > > Or the fact that a mayor who was
> > > giving Khodorkovsky a hard time just happened to be shot on Kh.'s
> > > birthday).
> > >
> >
> > Why would Khodorkovsky want to kill his opponent precisely on
> > Khodorkovsky's birthday? To attract police's attention to Khodorkovsky
> > as a possible suspect? Makes no sense.
>
> He could act with impunity during Yeltsin's time, and was a younger man
> then. And indeed, nothing bad happened to him over it - and wouldn't
> have, had he stayed on the right side of Putin.
>
> > If I were to order somebody's murder, I would have done that on any day OTHER than my birthday.
>
> Well, obviously you aren't a thug who became a billionaire in your late
> 20's and were full of feelings of invincibility/omnipotence.
>
> > This is paranoia on your part.
>
> No, rather realism.
>
Look, I find it absolutely astounding that an American like you would
fall for Putin's propaganda that Khodorkovsky was somehow more corrupt
or criminal that the other Russian and Ukrainian oligarchs like
Tymoshenko, Deripaska, Abramovich, etc.
The reason why Khodorkovsky is being prosecuted while the other
oligarchs aren't is because Khodorkovsky dared to openly challenge the
Putin regime and dared to publicly brag that he gave money to
opposition parties.
>
> > > > > > > Yes, Poland and Russia are also threats from that perspective. But
> > > > > > > Russia can also help strategically with its oil and as a global
> > > > > > > counterforce to the USA.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Right on. And Russia can also help Ukraine with its oil, gas and other
> > > > > > resources. Ukraine simply can't survive without those.
> > > > >
> > > > > But Russian help comes with the price of diminished sovereignty and
> > > > > cultural imperialism. This is obviously not the case for France and
> > > > > Germany.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yes, because these two are economically strong. But Ukraine is in
> > > > danger of becoming a victim of economic, military, political, and
> > > > cultural imperialism at the hands of ANY country that offers it its
> > > > help. The biggest threat comes from the country that exhibits 99% of
> > > > modern World's imperialism: USA.
> > >
> > > Well, as we have seen, USA is pretty ineffective.
> > >
> >
> > Yes, USA is very ineffective in maintaining law and order in occupied
> > countries and in protecting innocent civilians from genocide at the
> > hands of US allies/puppets, as we have seen in Kosovo and Iraq. So
> > what?
> >
> > But USA is extremely effective at invading foreign countries on
> > fraudulent charges,
>
> It cannot going to invade Ukraine.
>
Heck, if Ukraine behaves itself, then there will be no reason for USA
to bomb Ukraine. But if it dares to challenge USA policies, there is
always the pretext of a "genocide" against Crimean Tatars, along the
lines of the Kosovo aggression. First, some foreign terrorists will
start bombing Kiev in the name of "Tatar independence". Then they will
start killing Ukrainian policemen. The Ukrainian authorities will
respond, which will then justify the charge of "genocide" and soon the
Ukrainian trains, bridges, apartment buildings, TV stations and the
Chinese Embassy in Kiev will be bombed. After that, NATO/KFOR will
occupy Crimea, and the ethnic Russians, Ukrainians and Gypsies will be
ethnically cleansed out of Crimea, while all Orthodox Christian
churches will be demolished. Just like it was done in Kosovo. So behave
yourselves! :-) :-) :-)
>
> > at staging coups and imposing its violent puppet
> > juntas, at taking over other countries' economies, and at flooding
> > other cultures with comic books, with Hollywood trash and with the
> > primitive drum beats called rap and hip-hop "music".
>
> The latter poison occurs regardless of American policy. It is like a
> virus that spreads thgrough globalization rather than government
> actions.
>
True too. Too true.
>
> > >
> > > They've basically
> > > succeeded in creating a Shiite theocracy in Iraq.
> > >
> >
> > I doubt it. Haven't you heard that Al Qaeda, which is now a major force
> > in Iraq, has declared a war on Shiites in Iraq and is committing 3
> > terrorist acts per day?
>
> Sure, terrorism is the war of the weak. Once the Shiites are in full
> control their massacres of the Sunnis will take care of the problem.
> The Sunnis in Iran are pretty quiet, you know.
>
Yes, but Al Qaeda has declared was on the Iraqi Sunnis not on Iranian
Sunnis. And thanks to Bush, Iraq is now teeming with terrorists.
>
> > > So it's not so dangerous culturally.
> > >
> >
> > Sure it is. Ask the Sunnis.
> >
> > > In contrast, near neighbor Russia could be far
> > > more effective in its imperialism.
> >
> > When was the last time Russia invaded a foreign country and bombed
> > innocent civilians and TV stations in it?
>
> The situation in Ukraine is different...
>
I am not sure what you mean. Are you saying that Russia is going to
invade Ukraine the way USA invades foreign countries?
> > > > >
> > > > > Briefly, and unsuccessfully, with disastrous consequences for Poland.
> > > > > Most Poles have learned from their past mistakes. Have Russians?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Poles have learnt nothing. For many centuries Poland ruled over Ukraine
> > > > and Belarus.
> > >
> > > This not a correct characterization. The Polish Commonwealth was
> > > rather loosely organized. The most powerful figures in Ukraine for
> > > much of its history during Commonwealth times were not Poles but
> > > Ukrainian magnates. Thus the first printing of the Orthodox Bible was
> > > in Lviv,
> >
> > The first printing of the Orthodox Bible was in Prague.
>
> Really? I thought that it was Fedorov in Lviv. I could be wrong...
>
First of all, what was a Russian guy named Ivan Fedorov doing in such
supposedly "un-Russian" place like Lviv?
And second, despite Soviet propaganda, Fedorov wasn't first:
http://www.lib.msu.su/slavbibl/slavbibl.html
The University's collection contains the first printed edition of the
Slavonic Bible, the work of the famous Byelorussian printer, scientist,
and educator Franciscus Skorina. The University Library houses the
Books of Joshua, Ruth, Judges and Kings,
***********************published in Prague in 1518-1519************.
Skorina himself had translated these texts, intended primarily for
teaching reading skills, into the Byelorussian version of the Old
Church Slavonic. These remarkable editions contain the author's
prefaces, epilogues, and comments. Franciscus Skorina was also the
first to use title pages, foliation, running titles, and elaborate
illustrations in Cyrillic printing. The beautiful artistic and
paleographic design makes these books an outstanding landmark of
Cyrillic printing.
http://www.risu.org.ua/eng/news/article;4828/
The Ostrih Bible, the first complete edition of the Bible in the Old
Church Slavonic language, was printed by Ivan Fedorov ***************in
1581*********************************.
>
> > > > > into Ukraine, and
> > > > > pouring 300 million dollars to support a convicted criminal, rapist,
> > > > > mafioso for President, who promised to make Russian a state language
> > > > > and to enter into closer union with Russia, is a form of economic
> > > > > warfare, no?
>
> Okay, I agree. Your are correct. Timoshenko can not be considered a
> thief and Yanukovich cannot be considered a rapist. However,
> Yanukovich CAN be considered a violent street criminal (he beat up the
> guy that he robbed).
>
Please give me the concrete evidence for the above story. More than the
words of one politician badmouthing another one.
> > >
> > > > > Sure. Having 40% Russians/Russophones insures a lot of good will
> > > > > between a large portion of the population and Russia.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > If you don't like Russians in Ukraine, you can start getting rid of
> > > > them by returning Krym, which was stolen from Russia by the Soviet
> > > > Communist rulers in 1956.
> > >
> > > Then will you give us Kuban and parts of Kursk oblast, as well as Brest
> > > in Belorus?
> >
> > When exactly were these territories part of Ukraine?
> >
You didn't answer my question:
When exactly were these territories part of Ukraine?
> > >
> > > And recall a large part of Crimea will go not to Russia
> > > but to the tatars.
> >
> > Ye, but Tatars are part of the Russian Federation.
> >
> > >
> > > My uncle, retired Soviet general, had a more radical solution in line
> > > with his Soviet training. Shoot them all...
> >
> > Whom? Tatars?
>
> No, Russians. The guy is pretty cynical and refers to his Russian
> ex-colleagues as bydlo. He kept the secret of being not some prole but
> a count on his father's side as a treasured secret for all those years.
>
What a jerk. So, his "solution" is to shoot 10 million ethnic Russians
living in Ukraine and 10 million ethnic Ukrainians living in Russia? A
"final solution"? What about the 50 million part-Russians
part-Ukrainians, living in the two countries? Shoot them halfway?
>
> > > > You can't both forcibly occupy Russian people and complain of their presence at the same time, can you?
> > >
> > > I'm not complaining of their presence. Rather, I am pointing out the
> > > disadvantage they present to Ukraine (they also present advantages).
> > >
> >
> > Then give them and their land back to Russia.
>
> Well, it's just not their land. They came onto Ukrainian land as
> settlers.
>
Crimea was Ukrainian land?!!!!!!!!!
>
> > > > For example, are you aware of the enormous current efforts on the part
> > > > of the Catholic Church to proslethyse (sp.?) among Orthodox Christians
> > > > in Belarus, Ukraine and Russia?
> > >
> > > Sure. They are converting people from atheism to Catholicism. How
> > > many Orthodox Christians do you think would convert? Do not presume
> > > that the entire population of Ukraine or Russia are Orthodox.
> > >
> >
> > Those atheists, who are converting to Christianity, would have
> > converted to Orthodox if not for the Catholic proslethysers.
>
> Not necessarily. The Russian Church is well associated with the KGB
> and morally compromised for a lot of people. I myself, for example,
> witnessed a sports car almost run a guy over in Moscow while driving
> onto and parking on the sidewalk. Emerging from the car, with a
> leather jacket over his robes, was an Orthodox priest. Passersby by
> had rather uncharitable things to say about Orthodoxy, then. A friend
> of mine, former officer in the FSB, was working closely with Orthodox
> priests and told some rather shocking stopries about the parties they
> had...
>
> A LOT of people interested in Christianity turn to Catholicism for
> reasons such as this.
>
You may want to read up on what has happened in the USSR in the last 15
years or so. Do you know that USSR no longer exists? Do you know that
KGB no longer exists? Do you know that the new Orthodox priests in
Russia, Ukraine and Belarus don't have anything to do with the security
agencies and are no wealthier than Catholic priests? Are you aware that
there is Orthodox Church in Ukraine which is not even affiliated with
Moscow?
>
> And at any rate, there is no way that the
> Catholic Church has as many resources _within_ Russia as the Orthodox
> Church has, so the "competition" is hardly fair.
>
I was talking about Belarus and Ukraine.
>
> > > > > > > That's because Russians *are* Eurasians, while Ukrainians are not.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Total nonsense. They are what the current political situation tells
> > > > > > them to be. In the late 1980s-early 1990s very few Russians viewed
> > > > > > themselves as Eurasian.
> > > > >
> > > > > Not the ones I have known. But this could be a whole other thread...
> > > >
> > > > You probably confuse "Ugro-Finnic" with "Asian". Finns are Europeans,
> > > > you know.
> > >
> > > How about Tatars, Bashkirs, etc.?
> >
> > Yes, Russia has a sizable Muslim/Asian population. But not as large as
> > France (Muslim/African) (percentage-wise). Germany and England also
> > have large Asian/African populations. Does this make them
> > EuroAfrican/Asian countries?
>
> No, because those Asians/Africans were not invovled in German and
> English national development over centuries. From Vernadsky:
>
> >From Vernadsky's "The Mongols and Russia" p. 383, Tatar influence on
> the Russian ruling class:
>
> "By 1450 the Tatar (Turkish) language had become fashionable at the
> court of Grand Duke Vasilii II ofMoscow, which was strongly resented
> by his opponents. Vasili II was accused of excessive love of the
> Tatars and their speech (i rech ikh)."
>
So what? Most European people are actually descendants of Asiatic
peoples: Goths, Vandals, Huns, Finno-Hungarians, Bulgars, etc.
And the Spanish statehood was developed under many centuries of Arab
rule form Africa.
Is Spain a EuroAfrican country?
>
>
> >From Vernadsky, "The Mongols and Russia", pages 363-365, Tatar
> influence
> on the military:
>
>
> "Hence it was unavoidable that the Russians should introduce some
> Mongol patterns into their own army.
>
Yes, the Mongols had the best military tactics and everybody in Europe
and Middle East was wise to emulate them.
And the gunpowder comes from China.
>
> [Tons of irrelevant well-known stuff about the Mongol occupation of Russia deleted.]
>
>
> "...It was on the basis of the the Mongol system [of conscription]
> that Dmitry Donskoy succeeded in mobilizing the army with which he
> defeated Mamay at Kulikovo Pole."
>
I love the infantile level of your arguments.
>
> Also, cannons and firearms were introduced in Russia from the east
> rather than the west.
>
Yes, I know. A lot of best military innovations like gunpowder come
form Mongolia and China, who were much more advanced than medieval (sp)
Europe.
>
> More on Tatars and the the Russian rulers:
> Boyar families of Mongol/Tatar descent: Veliaminov-Zernovs
> (included Saburovs and Godunovs), Arsenievs and
> Bakhmetevs.
>
Yes, we know all that. Pushkin was an Ethiopian, Lermontov was a Scott,
Prince Yusupov was a direct descendant of Prophet Mohammed, and all
that. :-)
>
> In the 17th century, of Russia's noble families, 229
> were of Western European (including German) origin, 223 of Polish
> and Lithuanian origin (some of whom must have been of West Russian
> [Galician or Byelorusin]) origin), 156 of tatar and other Oriental
> origin, 168 families belonged to the House of Rurik and 42 were of
> unspecified "Russian" origin.
>
> Thus about 17% of the Russian nobility had Mongol/Tatar origins.
>
Yes, 17% of Russian nobility had one distant Tatar ancestor. Just as
Pushkin had one African greatgreatgrandfather. But if 17% of Russian
nobility had 20% of Tatar blood in them, then Tatar blood accounted for
17%*20% = 3.4% of the total noble blood.
So even in the 17th century most Russian nobility (83%) were European:
Scandinavians, Poles, Lithuanians, Germans, Rusans (Galicians,
Russians, Belarusans), etc. By mid-19th century, there were many new
aristocrats that came from Russia itself, as well as places like
Georgia. Plus the huge influx of German, Danish and other Western
European blood. Russian Tsars were Dano-German. But there was no influx
of Tatar blood into nobility. I bet by mid-19th century, the Tatar
blood made up less than 2% of the Russian nobility. That's negligible,
wouldn't you say? I bet Arab blood makes up for more than 10% of the
Spanish nobility.
>
> And contrasting European Ukraine with Asian Russia (the Russophobia of
> these European travelers is exactly Asiophobia):
>
> A French diplomat, Jean Baluse, whose memoirs are in the
> National Library in Paris, on Mazepa:
>
>
> "At his court he has two German doctors, with whom he converses in
> their tongue; to the Italian masters of whom there are several in
> the castle, he speaks in the Italian language. I spoke with the
> master of Ukraine in the Latin language, inasmuch he assured me
> that he was not very fluent in French...
>
Too bad for Mazepa. His contemporary Peter the Great in Russia was
fluent in many foreign languages like German and Dutch.
>
> I do not know if this
> statement of his concealed a special motive, for I myself saw
> French and Dutch newspapers in his study."
>
I bet Mazepa had translators who translated these newspapers for him.
And if the Russian Tsar visited Mazepa (did he?), he would have
translated these Dutch newspapers for Mazepa.
So, Mazepa had several Europeans in his court. But not as many as did
his contemporary Russian Tsar Peter the great and his successor
Catherine the Great, who herself was German and spoke many language and
corresponded with French philosophers. St Petersburg was built by
Italian masters.
So, the Mazepa court had maybe half as many Western Europeans as did
the Russian court of his times. What does that prove? That Ukrainians
are half as European as Russians? :-)
>
> The German Friedrich Weber in 1720 about the son of Hetman Apostol:
>
>
> "Although he was never abroad, he speaks fluently Latin, French,
> Italian, German, Russian and Polish..."
>
> Austrian diplomat J.G. Korb, 1700-1701, on Russians:
>
>
> "The people are rude of letters,
>
>
Russia became westernized by Peter the Great, which happened just AFTER
1700. So, your demagogical use of outdated material is duly noted.
>
> About Kozaks Korb writes:
>
> "this stout race excels the Muscovites, both in the art of war and in
> bravery of soul"
>
Sorry but I am tired of your pissing contest as to how Ukrainians are
more educated, more brave and more militaristic than Russians. What
does it have to do with our argument as to who is European and who is
Asian? I guess you point is that Europeans are more brave and
militaristic than Asians? :-)
I bet if I wanted to emulate you and waste my time digging up dirt on
other ethnic groups, I would find lots of opinions that Russians are
brave and educated, and that Ukrainians aren't. But I value my time
not to engage in this childish pissing.
Let me just tell you one thing: most Russians are less childish, less
arrogant, less demagogical, less snobbish and less braggart than
Ukrainians like you.
>
> Danish envoy in Moscow Jul Just, 1709-1712:
>
>
> "Although at the present time the Russians in their conduct are
> trying to emulate in monkey fashion the other nations, and though
> they don French attire and in their external appearance they appear
> more civilized, inwardly, however, there sits a cholop"
>
>
> "The tsar's entourage behaved without conscience and shame; they
> shouted, whistled, belched, spat, berated each other, and even
> shamelessly spat in the faces of decent people"
>
> [sounds like a gathering of New Russians in one of Moscow's more
> expensive restaurants,
>
I have been to every expensive restaurant in Moscow and have never
seen anything like that. Maybe you are confusing Moscow with Kyiv or
Lviv? Were you describing a gathering of Tymoshenko's friends in one of
Kyiv's more expensive restaurants?
In Moscow, people behave in restaurants much more civilized and subdued
than do, say, Americans. Infinitely more civilized! Everybody in elite
Moscow restaurants (even Ukrainian visitors! :-)) is dressed in formal
suits and behaves like they were poster boys for Good Manners.
>
> or for that matter, the "liberators" of
> Lviv in 1944 - Babai]
>
>
> Just described how all of the teachers at the Moscow gymnasium were
> either Ukrainians or Byelorussians ("Orthodox from Poland").
>
I am getting tired of replying to this never-ending childish garbage of
yours...
>
> Cultural level of the Russian leaders (contrast this with the
> descriptions of Mazepa above):
>
There is more?!! you are truly a horn of plenty!
>
> "Prince Menshikov, a figure second to the tsar, could neither read nor
> write. Chancellor Golovkin knew no language but Russian; not a single
> one of the tsar's dignitaries could speak Latin, with the exception of
> Musin-Pushkin, who was fluent in that language. Even Tsar Peter,
> whose 'enlightenment' was widely known, spoke only one Western
> European language, namely Dutch, and even here the tsar had
> difficulty in making himself understood."
>
> Just contrasts this with Ukraine:
>
> "The inhabitants of the Chernihiv province, as well as the entire
> population of kozak Ukraine, are known for their politeness and
> cleanliness, dressing neatly and keeping their homes immaculately
> clean."
>
> "Korolevets is a big town...the streets are beautiful, such as I
> never saw in Russia; the buildings are stately, strong and clean
> and are along the streets as in Denmark..."
>
>
> The envoy visited many Ukrainian dignitaries, all of whom he found
> to be extremely learned and educated. The ordinary minks in the
> Pecherska Lavra spoke fluently with him in Latin. He was greatly
> surprised to see the Ukrainian peasants in many villages going to
> church with prayer books, indicating that they were literate.
>
>
> In Podolia, in Nemyriv, "the meanest building was much cleaner than
> the most sumptuous palace in Moscow".
>
What does that have to do with Asia vs. Europe? So, to you, European
villages like in Albania or Spain are cleaner than Asian villages like
in China or Japan? LOL.
>
> An English author, Joseph Marshall, compared Ukrainian villages to
> those of England or Flanders. "The race of the Ukraine are civilized
> people and the best husbandmen in the Russian empire."
>
I will trust you on that. I am not an expert on agricultural husbandry.
>
> Etc. etc. You get the picture.
>
Yes, I do: you think that you are the "best husbandman", and that you
kirill
> cherni...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>>vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>>The Black Monk wrote:
>>>
>>>>vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Or the fact that a mayor who was
>>>>giving Khodorkovsky a hard time just happened to be shot on Kh.'s
>>>>birthday).
>>>>
>>>
>>>Why would Khodorkovsky want to kill his opponent precisely on
>>>Khodorkovsky's birthday? To attract police's attention to Khodorkovsky
>>>as a possible suspect? Makes no sense.
>>
>>He could act with impunity during Yeltsin's time, and was a younger man
>>then. And indeed, nothing bad happened to him over it - and wouldn't
>>have, had he stayed on the right side of Putin.
>>
>>
>>>If I were to order somebody's murder, I would have done that on any day OTHER than my birthday.
>>
>>Well, obviously you aren't a thug who became a billionaire in your late
>>20's and were full of feelings of invincibility/omnipotence.
>>
>>
>>>This is paranoia on your part.
>>
>>No, rather realism.
>>
>
>
> Look, I find it absolutely astounding that an American like you would
> fall for Putin's propaganda that Khodorkovsky was somehow more corrupt
> or criminal that the other Russian and Ukrainian oligarchs like
> Tymoshenko, Deripaska, Abramovich, etc.
Khodorkovsky gave 300 million dollars to the Carlyle Group (source:
The Moscow Times). Deripaska isn't such a brazen traitor.
>
> The reason why Khodorkovsky is being prosecuted while the other
> oligarchs aren't is because Khodorkovsky dared to openly challenge the
> Putin regime and dared to publicly brag that he gave money to
> opposition parties.
Drivel. Khodorkovsky's 3 million dollar total donation to the
communists, SPS and Yabloko is a token amount meant to buy himself
some "democratic credentials". He spent over 100 million on western
PR agencies to launder his sullied image. If he cared so much about
Russia's opposition parties he would have given them 400 million
dollars total since clearly it is small change for this billionaire.
Captain!
"kirill" <kir...@university.ca> wrote in message
news:d2c4b$43369e15$cf706f0f$25...@PRIMUS.CA...
lol, 400 million.
cherni...@hotmail.com
...cut...
(Kirrill did a better job responding to your Khodorkovsky comment than
I could...)
> > > But USA is extremely effective at invading foreign countries on
> > > fraudulent charges,
> >
> > It cannot going to invade Ukraine.
> >
>
> Heck, if Ukraine behaves itself, then there will be no reason for USA
> to bomb Ukraine. But if it dares to challenge USA policies, there is
> always the pretext of a "genocide" against Crimean Tatars, along the
> lines of the Kosovo aggression. First, some foreign terrorists will
> start bombing Kiev in the name of "Tatar independence". Then they will
> start killing Ukrainian policemen. The Ukrainian authorities will
> respond, which will then justify the charge of "genocide" and soon the
> Ukrainian trains, bridges, apartment buildings, TV stations and the
> Chinese Embassy in Kiev will be bombed. After that, NATO/KFOR will
> occupy Crimea, and the ethnic Russians, Ukrainians and Gypsies will be
> ethnically cleansed out of Crimea, while all Orthodox Christian
> churches will be demolished. Just like it was done in Kosovo. So behave
> yourselves! :-) :-) :-)
The USA, like any cowardly bully, only invades weak defenseless
countries. Yuogoslavia had just a couiple million people and military
technology from the 1970's. Iraq was likewise a military joke. There
is no way that the USA would dare mess with Ukraine militarily.
> > > at staging coups and imposing its violent puppet
> > > juntas, at taking over other countries' economies, and at flooding
> > > other cultures with comic books, with Hollywood trash and with the
> > > primitive drum beats called rap and hip-hop "music".
> >
> > The latter poison occurs regardless of American policy. It is like a
> > virus that spreads thgrough globalization rather than government
> > actions.
> >
>
> True too. Too true.
...cut...
> > > > In contrast, near neighbor Russia could be far
> > > > more effective in its imperialism.
> > >
> > > When was the last time Russia invaded a foreign country and bombed
> > > innocent civilians and TV stations in it?
> >
> > The situation in Ukraine is different...
> >
>
> I am not sure what you mean. Are you saying that Russia is going to
> invade Ukraine the way USA invades foreign countries?
Nope. I don't foresee any invasion in the near future. If it would
happen, it would take the form of an intervention in a fomented civil
war, like in Moldova.
> > > > > > Briefly, and unsuccessfully, with disastrous consequences for Poland.
> > > > > > Most Poles have learned from their past mistakes. Have Russians?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Poles have learnt nothing. For many centuries Poland ruled over Ukraine
> > > > > and Belarus.
> > > >
> > > > This not a correct characterization. The Polish Commonwealth was
> > > > rather loosely organized. The most powerful figures in Ukraine for
> > > > much of its history during Commonwealth times were not Poles but
> > > > Ukrainian magnates. Thus the first printing of the Orthodox Bible was
> > > > in Lviv,
> > >
> > > The first printing of the Orthodox Bible was in Prague.
> >
> > Really? I thought that it was Fedorov in Lviv. I could be wrong...
> >
>
> First of all, what was a Russian guy named Ivan Fedorov doing in such
> supposedly "un-Russian" place like Lviv?
Lviv was much freer within the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth tna was
Muscovy, where printing in Fedorov's time printing was believed to be
the devil's work. The freedom within the Commonwealth at that time was
why most of the world's Jews had settled there.
> And second, despite Soviet propaganda, Fedorov wasn't first:
>
> http://www.lib.msu.su/slavbibl/slavbibl.html
>
> The University's collection contains the first printed edition of the
> Slavonic Bible, the work of the famous Byelorussian printer, scientist,
> and educator Franciscus Skorina. The University Library houses the
> Books of Joshua, Ruth, Judges and Kings,
> ***********************published in Prague in 1518-1519************.
> Skorina himself had translated these texts, intended primarily for
> teaching reading skills, into the Byelorussian version of the Old
> Church Slavonic. These remarkable editions contain the author's
> prefaces, epilogues, and comments. Franciscus Skorina was also the
> first to use title pages, foliation, running titles, and elaborate
> illustrations in Cyrillic printing. The beautiful artistic and
> paleographic design makes these books an outstanding landmark of
> Cyrillic printing.
>
> http://www.risu.org.ua/eng/news/article;4828/
>
> The Ostrih Bible, the first complete edition of the Bible in the Old
> Church Slavonic language, was printed by Ivan Fedorov ***************in
> 1581*********************************.
Very interesting. Thank you for teaching me something new!
> >
> > > > > > into Ukraine, and
> > > > > > pouring 300 million dollars to support a convicted criminal, rapist,
> > > > > > mafioso for President, who promised to make Russian a state language
> > > > > > and to enter into closer union with Russia, is a form of economic
> > > > > > warfare, no?
> >
> > Okay, I agree. Your are correct. Timoshenko can not be considered a
> > thief and Yanukovich cannot be considered a rapist. However,
> > Yanukovich CAN be considered a violent street criminal (he beat up the
> > guy that he robbed).
> >
>
> Please give me the concrete evidence for the above story. More than the
> words of one politician badmouthing another one.
He was convicted of assault and theft in the 1950's; this conviction
was overturned in the 1970's during the corrupt Brezhnev era when it
became inconvenient for his political career. You posted the fact that
he was convicted yourself.
> > > > > > Sure. Having 40% Russians/Russophones insures a lot of good will
> > > > > > between a large portion of the population and Russia.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > If you don't like Russians in Ukraine, you can start getting rid of
> > > > > them by returning Krym, which was stolen from Russia by the Soviet
> > > > > Communist rulers in 1956.
> > > >
> > > > Then will you give us Kuban and parts of Kursk oblast, as well as Brest
> > > > in Belorus?
> > >
> > > When exactly were these territories part of Ukraine?
>
> You didn't answer my question:
>
>
>
>
> When exactly were these territories part of Ukraine?
>
Brest was part of Ukraine in 1918 (recognized by the Bolshevik
government), parts of Kursk oblast were part of the Ukrainian
Hetmanate, dissolved by Catherine II at the end of the 18th century.
Kuban was settled by Ukrainian cossacks but was never formally part of
any Ukrainian state.
> > > > And recall a large part of Crimea will go not to Russia
> > > > but to the tatars.
> > >
> > > Ye, but Tatars are part of the Russian Federation.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > My uncle, retired Soviet general, had a more radical solution in line
> > > > with his Soviet training. Shoot them all...
> > >
> > > Whom? Tatars?
> >
> > No, Russians. The guy is pretty cynical and refers to his Russian
> > ex-colleagues as bydlo. He kept the secret of being not some prole but
> > a count on his father's side as a treasured secret for all those years.
> >
>
> What a jerk. So, his "solution" is to shoot 10 million ethnic Russians
> living in Ukraine and 10 million ethnic Ukrainians living in Russia? A
> "final solution"? What about the 50 million part-Russians
> part-Ukrainians, living in the two countries? Shoot them halfway?
LOL. I obviously don't agree with the guy, and perhaps it's all for
the best that he had a falling out with the defence ministry and
retired in the early 1990's. In his defense, his family lost a lot of
people to the Bolsheviks.
> > > > > You can't both forcibly occupy Russian people and complain of their presence at the same time, can you?
> > > >
> > > > I'm not complaining of their presence. Rather, I am pointing out the
> > > > disadvantage they present to Ukraine (they also present advantages).
> > > >
> > >
> > > Then give them and their land back to Russia.
> >
> > Well, it's just not their land. They came onto Ukrainian land as
> > settlers.
> >
>
> Crimea was Ukrainian land?!!!!!!!!!
That was tatar land, and Ukrainian over the centuries suffered from and
battled against the Crimean tatars far more than Russians did.
> > > > > For example, are you aware of the enormous current efforts on the part
> > > > > of the Catholic Church to proslethyse (sp.?) among Orthodox Christians
> > > > > in Belarus, Ukraine and Russia?
> > > >
> > > > Sure. They are converting people from atheism to Catholicism. How
> > > > many Orthodox Christians do you think would convert? Do not presume
> > > > that the entire population of Ukraine or Russia are Orthodox.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Those atheists, who are converting to Christianity, would have
> > > converted to Orthodox if not for the Catholic proslethysers.
> >
> > Not necessarily. The Russian Church is well associated with the KGB
> > and morally compromised for a lot of people. I myself, for example,
> > witnessed a sports car almost run a guy over in Moscow while driving
> > onto and parking on the sidewalk. Emerging from the car, with a
> > leather jacket over his robes, was an Orthodox priest. Passersby by
> > had rather uncharitable things to say about Orthodoxy, then. A friend
> > of mine, former officer in the FSB, was working closely with Orthodox
> > priests and told some rather shocking stopries about the parties they
> > had...
> >
> > A LOT of people interested in Christianity turn to Catholicism for
> > reasons such as this.
> >
>
> You may want to read up on what has happened in the USSR in the last 15
> years or so. Do you know that USSR no longer exists? Do you know that
> KGB no longer exists?
FSB does, and they STILL have close ties to the Church. My friend
became an FSB officer after the USSR fell apart. His drunken parties
with members of that Church were recent events.
> Do you know that the new Orthodox priests in
> Russia, Ukraine and Belarus don't have anything to do with the security
> agencies
You need to learn more about this...
> and are no wealthier than Catholic priests?
Well, they certainly flaunt their wealth. Our upstairs neighbor on
Tverskaya was an Orthodox priest who drove a Mercedes. Nice guy,,
actually, but hardly humble about his wealth. He may have gotten it
from family rather than through business but I'm sure the impression he
left on others was not a positive one for the Church...
> Are you aware that
> there is Orthodox Church in Ukraine which is not even affiliated with Moscow?
Yes, and that one has very good ties with the Ukrainian Catholic
Church.
> > And at any rate, there is no way that the
> > Catholic Church has as many resources _within_ Russia as the Orthodox
> > Church has, so the "competition" is hardly fair.
> >
>
> I was talking about Belarus and Ukraine.
A similar case in Ukraine (I don't know about Belorus).
> > > Yes, Russia has a sizable Muslim/Asian population. But not as large as
> > > France (Muslim/African) (percentage-wise). Germany and England also
> > > have large Asian/African populations. Does this make them
> > > EuroAfrican/Asian countries?
> >
> > No, because those Asians/Africans were not invovled in German and
> > English national development over centuries. From Vernadsky:
> >
> > >From Vernadsky's "The Mongols and Russia" p. 383, Tatar influence on
> > the Russian ruling class:
> >
> > "By 1450 the Tatar (Turkish) language had become fashionable at the
> > court of Grand Duke Vasilii II ofMoscow, which was strongly resented
> > by his opponents. Vasili II was accused of excessive love of the
> > Tatars and their speech (i rech ikh)."
> >
>
> So what? Most European people are actually descendants of Asiatic
> peoples: Goths, Vandals, Huns, Finno-Hungarians, Bulgars, etc.
Sure. But Asian in the modern sense includes Tatars, Bashkirs,
Mongols, etc.
> And the Spanish statehood was developed under many centuries of Arab
> rule form Africa.
>
> Is Spain a EuroAfrican country?
Actually, nobody would deny the strong Arab (African is merely a
geographic term) influence on Spanish culture, from the native dances
to even the cries of ole, a bastardized form of "Allah". The Spanish
however tried to purge their culture of Arabism due to their militant
Catholic extremism.
> > >From Vernadsky, "The Mongols and Russia", pages 363-365, Tatar
> > influence on the military:
> >
> >
> > "Hence it was unavoidable that the Russians should introduce some
> > Mongol patterns into their own army.
> >
>
> Yes, the Mongols had the best military tactics and everybody in Europe
> and Middle East was wise to emulate them.
>
> And the gunpowder comes from China.
Gunpowder is an artifact that can be used by all. Organizing one's
society is a far more significant things. This organization was not
only military but also administrative (tax collection policies, etc.).
> >
> > [Tons of irrelevant well-known stuff about the Mongol occupation of Russia deleted.]
> >
> >
> > "...It was on the basis of the the Mongol system [of conscription]
> > that Dmitry Donskoy succeeded in mobilizing the army with which he
> > defeated Mamay at Kulikovo Pole."
> >
>
> I love the infantile level of your arguments.
What's so infantile about Vernadsky?
Well, with nations as well as people, the early formative years are
most important when examining subsequent culture. During Russia's
formative years in the 13th-15th centuries there was a significant
degree of Asian influence. Russia is a Eurasian country.
> > And contrasting European Ukraine with Asian Russia (the Russophobia of
> > these European travelers is exactly Asiophobia):
> >
> > A French diplomat, Jean Baluse, whose memoirs are in the
> > National Library in Paris, on Mazepa:
> >
> >
> > "At his court he has two German doctors, with whom he converses in
> > their tongue; to the Italian masters of whom there are several in
> > the castle, he speaks in the Italian language. I spoke with the
> > master of Ukraine in the Latin language, inasmuch he assured me
> > that he was not very fluent in French...
> >
>
> Too bad for Mazepa. His contemporary Peter the Great in Russia was
> fluent in many foreign languages like German and Dutch.
Contrary to Russian mythology he was not. He (barely) spoke Dutch and
was hardly literate in any language.
> >
> > I do not know if this
> > statement of his concealed a special motive, for I myself saw
> > French and Dutch newspapers in his study."
> >
>
> I bet Mazepa had translators who translated these newspapers for him.
> And if the Russian Tsar visited Mazepa (did he?), he would have
> translated these Dutch newspapers for Mazepa.
>
> So, Mazepa had several Europeans in his court. But not as many as did
> his contemporary Russian Tsar Peter the great and his successor
> Catherine the Great, who herself was German and spoke many language and
> corresponded with French philosophers. St Petersburg was built by
> Italian masters.
As was much of Ukraine, a century earlier.
I see you have become offended by the the stuff I posted below. That
was not my intention and I apologize for that. I wrote above that iot
was Russophobic. The purpose of all that (which I spent five minutes
on, a simple cut and paste of an earlier post that took me half hour,
cause some writer from Harvard wrote a book with all of those quotes in
it) was to show the perception of Europeans themselves towards Russia
and Ukraine. At that time Eurocentric Europeans regarded non-Europeans
as barbaric savages. Therefore, when Europeans saw Russians as
barbaric savages this implicitly meant that they, Europeans themselves,
saw them as foreigners abd Ukrainians as fellow Europeans. I posted
that stuff not because I agreed with it (Russia is my second home, a
beloved place) but in order to demonstrate this simple fact. Thus
Russian Eurasianism is natural and a contrast to Ukraine's European
orientation.
So one can say that after centuries of development, by 1700 at least
Russia was certainly NOT a European country. Subesequent development
was more recent and thus more superficial (as is the case with any suit
wearing Indian, Japanese of today).
> So, the Mazepa court had maybe half as many Western Europeans as did
> the Russian court of his times. What does that prove? That Ukrainians
> are half as European as Russians? :-)
>
> >
> > The German Friedrich Weber in 1720 about the son of Hetman Apostol:
> >
> >
> > "Although he was never abroad, he speaks fluently Latin, French,
> > Italian, German, Russian and Polish..."
> >
> > Austrian diplomat J.G. Korb, 1700-1701, on Russians:
> >
> >
> > "The people are rude of letters,
> >
> >
>
> Russia became westernized by Peter the Great, which happened just AFTER
> 1700.
So you admit that after the first four centuries of development Russia
was not westernized.
...cut...
> > Danish envoy in Moscow Jul Just, 1709-1712:
> >
> >
> > "Although at the present time the Russians in their conduct are
> > trying to emulate in monkey fashion the other nations, and though
> > they don French attire and in their external appearance they appear
> > more civilized, inwardly, however, there sits a cholop"
> >
> >
> > "The tsar's entourage behaved without conscience and shame; they
> > shouted, whistled, belched, spat, berated each other, and even
> > shamelessly spat in the faces of decent people"
> >
> > [sounds like a gathering of New Russians in one of Moscow's more
> > expensive restaurants,
> >
>
> I have been to every expensive restaurant in Moscow and have never
> seen anything like that.
You must go out quite a lot!
> Maybe you are confusing Moscow with Kyiv or
> Lviv? Were you describing a gathering of Tymoshenko's friends in one of
> Kyiv's more expensive restaurants?
>
> In Moscow, people behave in restaurants much more civilized and subdued
> than do, say, Americans. Infinitely more civilized! Everybody in elite
> Moscow restaurants (even Ukrainian visitors! :-)) is dressed in formal
> suits and behaves like they were poster boys for Good Manners.
I was thinking more along the 1990's. I find it fascinating how the
people who ten years ago were using "bled" as every other word have
today become so civilized! The recent popular movie Zhmurky showed
this rather graphically. This situation is a Russian leitmotif,
although history moves so much more quickly now. Witness how refined
the old Soviet elite were, even though they are grandchildren of
violent proles and thieves. These people meanwhile are so critical of
new Russian barbarians when they emerged, and now those barbarians (or
their children) are throwing parties that use the Vienna orchestra as
entertainment and say all the right things, indeed far more so than
Western Europeans. Perhaps that's why Mussorgsky's Khovanshchyna
resonated so much when I saw it at the Bolshoi a couple of years ago.
regards,
BM
J. Anderson
<cherni...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1127745869.1...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> The USA, like any cowardly bully, only invades weak defenseless
> countries.
Strange, but we seem to have a similar case just around the (eastern)
corner.
J.A.
cherni...@hotmail.com
I would have to respectfully disagree. Russia stupidly went to war
against Austria-Hungary knowing this meant a war with Germany. I'm not
sure about the lead-up to the war against Japan in 1938. So Russia
gone to war on both weak and strong countries, unlike the USA.
regards,
BM
> J.A.
Former King of Pangea
<cherni...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1127766566.6...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Russki duraki
MTRP
> Russki duraki
Brookski durak
Captain!
<cherni...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1127766566.6...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
around that time didn't the usa go to war against germany?
MTRP
> <cherni...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Russia stupidly went to war
> > against Austria-Hungary knowing this meant a war with Germany. I'm not
> > sure about the lead-up to the war against Japan in 1938. So Russia
> > gone to war on both weak and strong countries, unlike the USA.
No. It was Germany that stupidly declared war to USA cuz it was allied
to Japan that went to war against USA ...
J. Anderson
"MTRP" <Mir.To...@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:1127777341.5...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Captain meant in 1917.
MTRP
> "MTRP" wrote:
> > Captain! wrote:
> > > <cherni...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Russia stupidly went to war
> > > > against Austria-Hungary knowing this meant a war with Germany. I'm not
> > > > sure about the lead-up to the war against Japan in 1938. So Russia
> > > > gone to war on both weak and strong countries, unlike the USA.
> > > around that time didn't the usa go to war against germany?
> > No. It was Germany that stupidly declared war to USA cuz it was allied
> > to Japan that went to war against USA ...
> Captain meant in 1917.
OK, then. But by that time back in 1917 Germany was already agonizing
...
J. Anderson
And the U.S. sank a British passenger steamer (the Lusitania) with 124
Americans on board to motivate war in the eyes of the domestic public. There
was a strong pro-German opinion among U.S. Germans and Irish.
Former King of Pangea
"J. Anderson" <fer...@mail.com> wrote in message
news:dhb0sd$1v6$1...@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi...
The Irish believe all killing should be done inside Ireland. Keep it close
to home...cuts down on travel expenses, you know.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> "MTRP" <Mir.To...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>>J. Anderson wrote:
>>
>>>"MTRP" wrote:
>>>
>>>>Captain! wrote:
>>>>
>>>>><cherni...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Russia stupidly went to war against Austria-Hungary
>>>>>>knowing this meant a war with Germany. I'm not sure
>>>>>>sure about the lead-up to the war against Japan in 1938.
>>>>>>So Russia gone to war on both weak and strong countries,
>>>>>>unlike the USA.
>>>>>
>>>>>around that time didn't the usa go to war against germany?
>>>>
>>>>No. It was Germany that stupidly declared war to USA cuz
>>>>it was allied to Japan that went to war against USA ...
>>>
>>>Captain meant in 1917.
>>
>>OK, then. But by that time back in 1917 Germany was already agonizing
>
> And the U.S. sank a British passenger steamer (the Lusitania) with 124
> Americans on board to motivate war in the eyes of the domestic public.
Right :)
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> "MTRP" <Mir.To...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>>J. Anderson wrote:
>>
>>>"MTRP" wrote:
>>>
>>>>Captain! wrote:
>>>>
>>>>><cherni...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Russia stupidly went to war against Austria-Hungary
>>>>>>knowing this meant a war with Germany.
>>>>>>I'm not sure about the lead-up to the war against Japan in 1938.
>>>>>>So Russia gone to war on both weak and strong countries,
>>>>>>unlike the USA.
>>>>>
>>>>>around that time didn't the usa go to war against germany?
>>>>
>>>>No. It was Germany that stupidly declared war to USA
>>>>cuz it was allied to Japan that went to war against USA ...
>>>
>>>Captain meant in 1917.
>>
>>OK, then. But by that time back in 1917 Germany was already agonizing
>
>
> And the U.S. sank a British passenger steamer (the Lusitania) with 124
> Americans on board to motivate war in the eyes of the domestic public.
Right :)
MTRP
> J. Anderson wrote:
> > "MTRP" <Mir.To...@gmx.de> wrote:
> > > J. Anderson wrote:
> > > > "MTRP" wrote:
> > > > > Captain! wrote:
> > > > > > <cherni...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > Russia stupidly went to war against Austria-Hungary
> > > > > > > knowing this meant a war with Germany.
> > > > > > > I'm not sure about the lead-up to the war against Japan in 1938.
> > > > > > > So Russia gone to war on both weak and strong countries,
> > > > > > > unlike the USA.
> > > > > > around that time didn't the usa go to war against germany?
> > > > > No. It was Germany that stupidly declared war to USA
> > > > > cuz it was allied to Japan that went to war against USA ...
> > > > Captain meant in 1917.
> > > OK, then. But by that time back in 1917 Germany was already agonizing
> > And the U.S. sank a British passenger steamer (the Lusitania) with 124
> > Americans on board to motivate war in the eyes of the domestic public.
> Right :)
U 2 don't much about history, Rusty. Lusitania went down on May 1,
1915, i.e. almost two years before the United States joined WW1.
http://lancefuhrer.com/lusitania.htm
J. Anderson
Und? It took a couple of years for the opinion to swing. Stop trusting
everything you find on the net. You probably still believe Dubya's WMD
blabber.
>
Former King of Pangea
U2 don't know much about anything. Bono is an idiot. The Edge is just plain
stoopit.
Former King of Pangea
MTRP is gullible, naive .uni guy. He's easy prey for all that leftist crap.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
And the U.S. sank the Lusitania. Right :)
MTRP
> MTRP wrote:
> > Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj wrote:
> > > J. Anderson wrote:
> > > > "MTRP" <Mir.To...@gmx.de> wrote:
> > > > > J. Anderson wrote:
> > > > > > "MTRP" wrote:
> > > > > > > Captain! wrote:
> > > > > > > > <cherni...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Russia stupidly went to war against Austria-Hungary
> > > > > > > > > knowing this meant a war with Germany.
> > > > > > > > > I'm not sure about the lead-up to the war against Japan in
> > > > > > > > > 1938.
> > > > > > > > > So Russia gone to war on both weak and strong countries,
> > > > > > > > > unlike the USA.
> > > > > > > > around that time didn't the usa go to war against germany?
> > > > > > > No. It was Germany that stupidly declared war to USA
> > > > > > > cuz it was allied to Japan that went to war against USA ...
> > > > > > Captain meant in 1917.
> > > > > OK, then. But by that time back in 1917 Germany was already agonizing
> > > > And the U.S. sank a British passenger steamer (the Lusitania) with 124
> > > > Americans on board to motivate war in the eyes of the domestic public.
> > > Right :)
> > 1915, i.e. almost two years before the United States joined WW1.
> > http://lancefuhrer.com/lusitania.htm
> And the U.S. sank the Lusitania. Right :)
Still wrongo. Johnny confused Yanks with Brits ... even Brookski knows
it was Winnie Churchill disguised as Walther Schwieger ...
brody
Even more outrageous was US actions during WWII to manufacture American
public support for a war against Japan.
The Japanese had nothing to do with the attack on Pearl Harbour. There
was a reason there were no American aircraft carriers at Pearl Harbour.
The US carriers were at sea playing the part of a Japanese attack fleet.
It was the US who attacket Pearl and then blamed it on the Japanese thus
provoking a war with Japan.
The US then covered up this dastardly action by murdering all personal
manning the carriers, freezing the bodies and adding them to the dead
from various battles with the Japanese.
MTRP
Not quite so. Those poor fellas were on board USS Eldridge sent to 22nd
century by Al Einstein and Ed Teller (re: Philadelphia Experiment).
MTRP
> x-no-archive: yes
> could have lasted forever, or still worse, Germany might have won the war.
No. Germany got out of money and natural resources and therefore could
not continue the war. USA joining Entente Cordiale made this asymmetry
obvious to German gov, so it decided to ask for peace. Initially it was
not understood as capitulation, since Germany was not losing in
military terms ... after all the whole war was fought on foreign soil.
vkar...@yahoo.com
Pizzol Fanfaroni wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
>
>
Only a total moron would mix current events with distant history.
vkar...@yahoo.com
Are you talking about the Russian Federation? When was the last time
the Russian Federation invaded any other country, weak or strong?!
vkar...@yahoo.com
Captain! wrote:
> <cherni...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1127766566.6...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > J. Anderson wrote:
> >> <cherni...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1127745869.1...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >>
> >> > The USA, like any cowardly bully, only invades weak defenseless
> >> > countries.
> >>
> >> Strange, but we seem to have a similar case just around the (eastern)
> >> corner.
> >
> > I would have to respectfully disagree. Russia stupidly went to war
> > against Austria-Hungary knowing this meant a war with Germany. I'm not
> > sure about the lead-up to the war against Japan in 1938. So Russia
> > gone to war on both weak and strong countries, unlike the USA.
> >
> >
>
Which time? 1938? No, USA didn't go to war against Germany in 1938. In
December 1941, USA was attacked by Germany's ally Japan, thus putting
USA and Germany officially at war.
vkar...@yahoo.com
The attack was carried out by the Russian UFOs from Mars. Can there be
any doubt?
lora...@cs.com
vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Are you talking about the Russian Federation? When was the last time
> the Russian Federation invaded any other country, weak or strong?!
Chechnya 1994 and again in 1999; estamated 200,000 civilians killed by
russians.
«Pas de deux»
news:1127879340....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
They continue to illegally occupy Königsberg.
«Pas de deux»
news:1127884199.0...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Besides, Karlamov's full of shit. The people of RF are the same people
that were in USSR (minus the escapees). Nothing has changed, except the
KGB's initials. The mindset is still the same.
Former King of Pangea
<vkar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1127879542.1...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Sounds like the usual sovok bastardization of history.
Japan attacked the US. Germany declared war on the US. The US kicked both
Japan's and Germany's butts.
Germany did not have to declare war, but did. One of Hitler's biggest
mistakes.
vkar...@yahoo.com
No, Chechnya is not a foreign country. It was and is an internationally
recognized part of Russia. Has been such for centuries.
Russia has the same right to defend its rights over Chechnya as England
has over Ulster (Northern Ireland), Spain over the Basques, France over
Corsica, etc.
vkar...@yahoo.com
And Lithuania is occupying Memel. And Poland is occupying Dantzig. All
three are legal occupations. Even Germany has agreed to these
annexations.
lora...@cs.com
vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> «Pas de deux» wrote:
> > > Are you talking about the Russian Federation? When was the last time
> > > the Russian Federation invaded any other country, weak or strong?!
> >
> > They continue to illegally occupy Königsberg.
>
> And Lithuania is occupying Memel.
No it isn't. It is Lithuania's by internationally recognized treaty.
And by about 5000 years of ownership.
> And Poland is occupying Dantzig.
Danzig is more tenuous; it hinges upon the legitimacy of the Versailles
Treaty.
> All
> three are legal occupations.
You lie. Russia has no legal right to East Prussia.
It's military protectorate given it by the (Allied) Potsdam Treaty
which expired in 2000. It's past time for it to vacate the premises.
Stalinism must not be rewarded.
Anyway, sinced you asked;
"Are you talking about the Russian Federation? When was the last time
the Russian Federation invaded any other country, weak or strong?!"
..and you now also have your answer; 200,000 civilians murdered in
Chechnya.
Do you have another question we can help you with?
Captain!
>
> "MTRP" <Mir.To...@gmx.de> wrote in message
> news:1127809580.9...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> J. Anderson wrote:
>>> "MTRP" wrote:
>>> > Captain! wrote:
>>> > > <cherni...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> > > > against Austria-Hungary knowing this meant a war with Germany.
>>> > > > I'm not
>>> > > > sure about the lead-up to the war against Japan in 1938. So
>>> > > > Russia
>>> > > > gone to war on both weak and strong countries, unlike the USA.
>>> > > around that time didn't the usa go to war against germany?
>>> > to Japan that went to war against USA ...
>>> Captain meant in 1917.
>>
>> OK, then. But by that time back in 1917 Germany was already agonizing
>
> And the U.S. sank a British passenger steamer (the Lusitania) with 124
> Americans on board to motivate war in the eyes of the domestic public.
> There was a strong pro-German opinion among U.S. Germans and Irish.
even during (early) WW2 there was a strong german movement over here. in
northern british columbia (my home province) there was a "secret" camp up
north where poeple who wanted to become nazis went to sign up.
Captain!
"Pizzol Fanfaroni" <piz...@fanfaroni.org> wrote in message
news:K2j_e.4520$211.347@trnddc08...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> cherni...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>> ...cut...
>>
>> (Kirrill did a better job responding to your Khodorkovsky comment than
>> I could...)
>>
>>
>>>>>But USA is extremely effective at invading foreign countries on
>>>>>fraudulent charges,
>>>>
>>>>It cannot going to invade Ukraine.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Heck, if Ukraine behaves itself, then there will be no reason for USA
>>>to bomb Ukraine. But if it dares to challenge USA policies, there is
>>>always the pretext of a "genocide" against Crimean Tatars, along the
>>>lines of the Kosovo aggression. First, some foreign terrorists will
>>>start bombing Kiev in the name of "Tatar independence". Then they will
>>>start killing Ukrainian policemen. The Ukrainian authorities will
>>>respond, which will then justify the charge of "genocide" and soon the
>>>Ukrainian trains, bridges, apartment buildings, TV stations and the
>>>Chinese Embassy in Kiev will be bombed. After that, NATO/KFOR will
>>>occupy Crimea, and the ethnic Russians, Ukrainians and Gypsies will be
>>>ethnically cleansed out of Crimea, while all Orthodox Christian
>>>churches will be demolished. Just like it was done in Kosovo. So behave
>>>yourselves! :-) :-) :-)
>>
>>
>> technology from the 1970's. Iraq was likewise a military joke. There
>> is no way that the USA would dare mess with Ukraine militarily.
>>
>
> Yep. Russia heroically invaded only the strong ones, like Finland.
for such a small country finland was pretty strong. they fought bravely in
the winter war.
Captain!
"Former King of Pangea" <Big...@TheWholeThing.org> wrote in message
news:OGB_e.37242$TA2....@fe09.lga...
russia was filling up with studebakers and britain was reciveing oil, food,
etc...
germany knew which side the usa was on.
Captain!
<vkar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1127879340....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
well, they did send a small contingent to afghanistan.
Captain!
to be clear, modern afghanistan, not the soviet invasion.
Captain!
<lora...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:1127939834.4...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> «Pas de deux» wrote:
> > > Are you talking about the Russian Federation? When was the last time
> > > the Russian Federation invaded any other country, weak or strong?!
> >
> > They continue to illegally occupy Königsberg.
>
> And Lithuania is occupying Memel.
No it isn't. It is Lithuania's by internationally recognized treaty.
And by about 5000 years of ownership.
5000? heh.
«Pas de deux»
news:1127936774.2...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Yeah, wonderful examples you chose there...
«Pas de deux»
news:1127936932.4...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
«And Lithuania is occupying Memel. And Poland is occupying Dantzig. All
Codswallop! Invalid comparison. No Russian ever lived in Königsberg
before 1945. No moral right to occupy whatsoever.
Whereas ethnic Lithuanians (and proto-Balts before them) have lived in
Klaipeda since around 1000 BC.
vkar...@yahoo.com
> vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > «Pas de deux» wrote:
> > > > Are you talking about the Russian Federation? When was the last time
> > > > the Russian Federation invaded any other country, weak or strong?!
> > >
> > > They continue to illegally occupy Königsberg.
> >
> > And Lithuania is occupying Memel.
>
> No it isn't. It is Lithuania's by internationally recognized treaty.
> And by about 5000 years of ownership.
>
> > And Poland is occupying Dantzig.
>
> Danzig is more tenuous; it hinges upon the legitimacy of the Versailles
> Treaty.
>
> > All
> > three are legal occupations.
>
> You lie. Russia has no legal right to East Prussia.
> It's military protectorate given it by the (Allied) Potsdam Treaty
> which expired in 2000.
>
Could you please provide the text from that Treaty that supports the
above claim?
>
> It's past time for it to vacate the premises.
> Stalinism must not be rewarded.
>
But Nazism should be punished.
>
> Anyway, sinced you asked;
> "Are you talking about the Russian Federation? When was the last time
> the Russian Federation invaded any other country, weak or strong?!"
>
> ..and you now also have your answer; 200,000 civilians murdered in
> Chechnya.
>
Yes, it was a terribly handled war on the part of the Russian military
leadeship. Shameful incompetence.
Actually, the number I heard was 260,000.
But it was not a foreign country, was it? As I said, Chechnya is an
internationally recognized region of the Russian Federation. it is a
very dangerous region. A region where a large number of people make
their money by kidnapping people from neighboring regions of th
Caucuses. A region that will forever threaten the well-being of its
neighbors: Daghestan, Ossetia, Russia, Georgia. And the Russian
Fedration will be forever forced to keep these kidnappers/criminals in
check. Hopefully, more intelligently than it did in the 1990s.
>
> Do you have another question we can help you with?
>
Yes, I do:
1. Why do you think that Chechnya is not an internationally recognized
region of the Russian Federation?
2. Why are so many of your posts paranoid?
3. Could you please provide the relevant text of the Potsdam Treaty?
4. Why do you refer to yourself in plural: "we"? Tapeworms?
brody
Chechnya declared independence along with the other former Soviet
Russian Republics (including Ukraine) when Soviet Russia imploded.
Chechnya had a viable country until Russia invaded and destroyed the
political and civil infrastructure which allowed for the rise of the so
called Chechen warlords. The current lawlessness in Chechnya was imposed
by Russia.
This is what Soviet Russia did in Afghanistan. They invaded, destroyed
the political and civil infrastructure which allowed for the rise of the
so called Afgan warlords; then Russia declared that the Afghans were
criminals and barbarians unable to govern themselves.
lora...@cs.com
vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > You lie. Russia has no legal right to East Prussia.
> > It's military protectorate given it by the (Allied) Potsdam Treaty
> > which expired in 2000.
> >
>
> Could you please provide the text from that Treaty that supports the
> above claim?
As soon as your lieing russian monkey ass apologizes for attempting to
ignore the murders of hundred of thousands of civilians at the hands of
invading russian criminals.
vkar...@yahoo.com
> vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > > You lie. Russia has no legal right to East Prussia.
> > > It's military protectorate given it by the (Allied) Potsdam Treaty
> > > which expired in 2000.
> >
> > Could you please provide the text from that Treaty that supports the
> > above claim?
>
> As soon as your lieing russian monkey ass
>
You are not a very civilized person, are you? And not very good with
your own native language either...
>
> apologizes for attempting to
> ignore the murders of hundred of thousands of civilians
>
When did I "attempt" to ignore that? When I wrote:
>
> > Actually, the number I heard was 260,000.
>
> > Yes, it was a terribly handled war on the part of the Russian military
> > leadeship. Shameful incompetence.
>
I freely bemoan that 260,000 people, primarily ethnic Russian
civilians, were killed in those two stupid and brutal civil wars.
But in any case, even if I had ignored your post, when has
"attempting" to ignore Usenet posts from a lying idiot like yourself
become something to apologize for?
> >
> > Could you please provide the text from that Treaty that supports the
> > above claim?
>
> As soon as your lieing russian monkey ass apologizes for attempting to
> ignore the murders of hundred of thousands of civilians at the hands of invading russian criminals.
>
In other words, you lied about the Potsdam Treaty? Wow. What gall.
Somebody at SCB should keep a record of all your lies. You are the SCB
version of Alex Seredin (Amigocabal).
>
> > > Do you have another question we can help you with?
>
> > Yes, I do:
>
> > 4. Why do you refer to yourself in plural: "we"? Tapeworms?
>
No answer... Must be tapeworms then. Either that or fleas.
vkar...@yahoo.com
That happened in 1979, more than a quarter of a century ago. And was
committed by an idiotic Communist regime, which was thrown out by
Russians almost 15 years ago, in a now non-existent coutry of the
Soviet Union, which was disbanded by the Rusisans 15 years ago.
Contrast that with all the idiotic USA's aggressions committed AFTER
1979.
vkar...@yahoo.com
> vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > lora...@cs.com wrote:
> >
> >>vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>
> >>>«Pas de deux» wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>>Are you talking about the Russian Federation? When was the last time
> >>>>>the Russian Federation invaded any other country, weak or strong?!
> >
> >>"Are you talking about the Russian Federation? When was the last time
> >>the Russian Federation invaded any other country, weak or strong?!"
> >>
> >>..and you now also have your answer; 200,000 civilians murdered in
> >>Chechnya.
> >
> > Yes, it was a terribly handled war on the part of the Russian military
> > leadeship. Shameful incompetence.
> >
> > Actually, the number I heard was 260,000.
> >
> > But it was not a foreign country, was it? As I said, Chechnya is an
> > internationally recognized region of the Russian Federation. it is a
> > very dangerous region. A region where a large number of people make
> > their money by kidnapping people from neighboring regions of th
> > Caucuses. A region that will forever threaten the well-being of its
> > neighbors: Daghestan, Ossetia, Russia, Georgia. And the Russian
> > Fedration will be forever forced to keep these kidnappers/criminals in
> > check. Hopefully, more intelligently than it did in the 1990s.
> >
> >
> >>Do you have another question we can help you with?
>
>
>
So did I. In 1992, I declared my house and my land an independent
country. But unfortunately, nobody in the rest of the World recognized
my independence. Same for Chechnya.
>
> along with the other former Soviet
> Russian Republics (including Ukraine) when Soviet Russia imploded.
>
First of all, Chechnya was never one of the 15 Republics that made up
the Union of the Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR).
Second, Russia, Ukraine and the other 13 Republics peacefully agreed to
become independent of each other at the end of 1991. Chechnya did no
such thing.
>
> Chechnya had a viable country until Russia invaded and destroyed the
> political and civil infrastructure which allowed for the rise of the so
> called Chechen warlords.
>
Bull. Prior to the Russian invasion of Chechnya at the end of 1994,
Chechnya was a rogue region, already ruled by warlords who practiced
international terrorism, war agianst the Republic of Georgia,
international airplane hijackings, and massive kidnappings of civilians
from Daghestan, Ossetia and other neighboring regions in exchange for
ransom usually in the amount of $hundreds of thousands per kidnapped
victim.
>
> The current lawlessness in Chechnya was imposed by Russia.
>
The lawlessness in Chechnya was imposed by its initial leader Dudaev.
>
> This is what Soviet Russia did in Afghanistan. They invaded, destroyed
> the political and civil infrastructure which allowed for the rise of the
> so called Afgan warlords;
>
Well, that was a quarter century ago. Long time ago. Unlike the USA's
very recent invasion of the very same country of Afghanistan, which has
also destroyed the political and civil infrastructure and also resulted
in the rise of the Afghan opium warlords.