A memo.
henry alminas
Hey Jon -
It seems that the pink brigade, consisting of
ruskoids and others, have now rendered all
of us, who do not share their vision of a
glorious socialistic future in a nattering and
nagging nanny state, down to one menacing
symbol - the ultra-rightist of unknown name.
This is, in fact, not surprising. Socialists and
their ilk have ever feared the self-aware
individual. The individualist who understands
the meaning of freedom - practices freedom
in his daily life and promotes it via all available
means, in their view, should be treated
as a leper - an outcast. It is this type of
individual who is fully aware of the leftist's
methodology of stealing freedom via
absurd promises of cradle to grade economic
security. The economic blessings that they
spread, however, are stolen from the neighbor
who may have a bit more. A strange concept
of "wealth creation" indeed. They did not
learn much from the russkie experience it
seems. True, they don't just outright kill you
and confiscate your property - they just
tax, and tax and tax. The result, in the
end is similar to that achieved by Stalin
- all individual initiative is killed and you
end up with a stagnant and even retrogressing
economy - as can be seen in Germany today.
But it is not just the economic sector that
they attack. They also steal your national
sovereignty and attempt to destroy your
relationship to your nation - ridiculing
your history, culture, ethnicity - all of
which become concepts to be derided and
objurgated. This is especially pernicious
in a forum dealing with matters Baltic
- just attempting to recover from the
russkie-imposed version of the same
system. The russkies attempted to
denationalize and deracinate with force.
They outright murdered and deported
all (with a strange preference for women
and children) who they considered might
possibly object to the blessings of their
system.
These pinks do it with carrots and threats
of economic and social collapse should
their delineated path not be followed.
Indeed, the conversation among some,
appearing in this forum, now does not
differentiate between a Latvian and a
russkie anymore - all are identical proles
warming their weary bones under the
rising socialistic sun. Repulsively, the
aggressors are now interpreted as the
victims and the victims are deemed
evil - for showing the *slightest*
sign of resentment at the murder
of their families and the looting of
their family possessions - not to
mention the denigration of their
past.
Instead the pinkoid rat-pack offers
a feel-good internationalism
to replace the national culture,
history and ethnicity of the natives.
"We is all one" they warble - the
killer and the survivor. "Besides,"
head-rat preaches, "give up your
hopeless vanity languages and join
the modern international world"
babbling russkiespeak - it is the
"new wave" - yet again.
And so - on to the brave "new"
socialist world (it seems that it
becomes "new" again subsequent
to each failed experiment in that
direction - proving that each
generation has its own set
of fools)!
Best - - Henry
pas de deux
>They steal your national sovereignty and attempt to destroy your
relationship to your nation - ridiculing your history, culture, ethnicity -
all of
>which become concepts to be derided and objurgated.
Where did you see these concepts being drided and 'objurgated'? (Quote
official Eu document please.)
>This is especially pernicious in a forum dealing with matters Baltic - just
attempting to recover from the russkie-imposed version of the same
>system.
Shameless distortion. When is the EU army rolling into Lithuania to
forcibly incorporate it into EU?
>The russkies attempted to denationalize and deracinate with force. They
outright murdered and deported all (with a strange preference for >women and
children) who they considered might possibly object to the blessings of
their system.
Yes, quite so. And I have written as many pages as you have condemning it.
I also translated the Partisan Chronicles.
>These pinks do it with carrots and threats of economic and social collapse
should their delineated path not be followed.
Bullshit. I said Lithuania would be no better than Belarus without EU. I
stand by that assertion.
>Indeed, the conversation among some, appearing in this forum, now does not
differentiate between a Latvian and a russkie anymore - all are identical
proles warming their weary bones under the rising socialistic sun.
It's moments like these I think you and Dunghill are one and the same.
>Repulsively, the aggressors are now interpreted as the victims
Who ever said that? When? Quote please.
>and the victims are deemed evil
Who ever said that? When? Quote please.
>Instead the pinkoid rat-pack offers a feel-good internationalism to replace
the national culture, history and ethnicity of the natives.
In all my reading of EU material I have failed to espy any mention of a
phase-out date for the Lithuanian language. Have you seen such a date
mentioned? Under what program and budget allocation does this come?
>"We is all one" they warble - the killer and the survivor.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Russia is an EU candidate.
>"Besides," head-rat preaches, "give up your hopeless vanity languages and
join the modern international world" babbling russkiespeak - it is >the "new
wave" - yet again.
Hey, Eugene — did you say that?
>And so - on to the brave "new" socialist world (it seems that it becomes
"new" again subsequent to each failed experiment in that direction -
>proving that each generation has its own set of fools)!
Ach, finally yla iš maišo išlindo! So you think EU is 'socialistic' —
that's what's bugging you. Well where did you get that notion?
Gintautas Kaminskas
******************************************************
"henry alminas" <halm...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:RQI7b.406400$YN5.274425@sccrnsc01...
Jonhillr
Get out of this thread, fake puppet, GunnaK.
Shut your pink yap, or I will sikk Gerogin Le Terribile on you.. hhahaha.
Jonhillr
Message-ID: <RQI7b.406400$YN5.274425@sccrnsc01>
"Hey Jon -
It seems that the pink brigade, consisting of ruskoids and others, have now
rendered all of us, who do not share their vision of a
glorious socialistic future in a nattering and
nagging nanny state, down to one menacing symbol - the ultra-rightist of
unknown name.
[Hi Henry -
Well that is the ultimate and predicatable reduction of course; we who dare -
not to bow to the eurasian 'socialist imperative' - have become personified as
the always handy stereotype, the ever hated 'nationalist bourgeois'.
If I'm not mistaken, I believe that Marxist theory also predicted this.
(hahaha)]
This is, in fact, not surprising. Socialists and their ilk have ever feared the
self-aware
individual. The individualist who understands the meaning of freedom -
practices freedom in his daily life and promotes it via all available means, in
their view, should be treated as a leper - an outcast. It is this type of
individual who is fully aware of the leftist's methodology of stealing freedom
via absurd promises of cradle to grade economic security. The economic
blessings that they spread, however, are stolen from the neighbor
who may have a bit more. A strange concept of "wealth creation" indeed.
They did not learn much from the russkie experience it seems. True, they don't
just outright kill you and confiscate your property - they just tax, and tax
and tax. The result, in the end is similar to that achieved by Stalin - all
individual initiative is killed and you end up with a stagnant and even
retrogressing economy - as can be seen in Germany today.
[Agreed. There are, of course, stages within the 'socialist' spectrum. The
thing flows like a blob through the seasons.
Ultimately socialism's foundation is primarily unjustified personal greed -
something so primitive that it requires an entire euphemistic ' what is best
for the masses' socialistic cosmology to mask it - and a communistic
totalitarian-style societal control system to give it the power to operate.
The EU's new constitution is a strong three steps in that direction.]
[What socialism really is - is gang thievery conducted at the direction of its
gang leaders. In Europe's case.. Schroeder, Chiraq, Blair, et al. And all of
that is just for media consumption at the 'proletarian' street level. Because
behind the rictus of jingoism (russian and european) are the same despots who
throughout all of history, have been personally addicted to power and the
abuse of it. Evil personified and ever abiding. The only differentation between
medieval khans/potentates and modern socialist leadership is that new cheaper,
quicker ways have been invented to rob the unsuspecting victims using
incomprehensible abstraction piled upon abstraction. Call it what it is: a con
game.]
[I see that those new developments are of a psychologically manipulative
nature; using the modern jargon, medieval death threatening extortions have
become 'outcome based harmonious integrational social engineering paradygms' -
but remain the same demands of surrender as 1000 years ago.
Socialism/communism/post-communism/commutairianism (and they are the same) is
simply a modern re-labelling of brute thuggery.]
But it is not just the economic sector that
they attack. They also steal your national
sovereignty and attempt to destroy your
relationship to your nation - ridiculing
your history, culture, ethnicity - all of
which become concepts to be derided and
objurgated.
[Efficient totalitarian control requires that societies be organized in
pyramidal power structures. Move the top- and all below moves with it.
Bribe, convert, infiltrate the top - and the whole societal pyramid is yours as
well. Wherever possible, the totalitarian goal is to entangle all victims with
permanent chains that bind them all to a central control using approved
channels (ie. EU 'structures') of control.]
[This ultimately requires that you recognize their new authority (loss of your
national sovereignty), their terms of control (EU 'acquis' and EU
'constitution') instead of your own laws and constitutions, their 'official'
languages (which may well not be yours), their artificial 'EU identity'
(instead of your historic national identity), and finally their constructed
'culture' - instead of your own real historic one.]
This is especially pernicious
in a forum dealing with matters Baltic
- just attempting to recover from the
russkie-imposed version of the same
system.
[The timing is so hugely ironic, that I doubt it to be accidental.
I still entertain the notion that the collapse of the soviet union was helped
along by a promise of future hypothetical rewards to come. Call them the new
Moskow-EU side protocols.]
[As we can see, there is little internal political change in the soviet union
today, except for two things:
1) Its economy is now being merged with 'the west's'; money now coveniently
flows trans-nationally.
2) The soviet union is getting ready to join a new socialist union; the
European Union.]
[Both are socialist centralizations of power. The long hoped-for unified
socialized control of both europe and asia without any loss of infrastructure -
is near at hand. ]
The russkies attempted to
denationalize and deracinate with force.
They outright murdered and deported
all (with a strange preference for women
and children) who they considered might
possibly object to the blessings of their
system.
These pinks do it with carrots and threats
of economic and social collapse should
their delineated path not be followed.
Indeed, the conversation among some,
appearing in this forum, now does not
differentiate between a Latvian and a
russkie anymore - all are identical proles
warming their weary bones under the
rising socialistic sun. Repulsively, the
aggressors are now interpreted as the
victims and the victims are deemed
evil - for showing the *slightest*
sign of resentment at the murder
of their families and the looting of
their family possessions - not to
mention the denigration of their
past.
[That modern abstracted social engineering is merely an evolution of previous
thuggery.
What was accomplished previously by crude russian directed mass murder and mass
population transport will now be accomplished by obscure 'acquis' penned in
backrooms by the agents of the new robber-potentate cliques.
The previous russian mass-murderers now find it convenient to engage in
eurospeak in order to mask their strategic intent. Brussels winks and does not
mind - simply because Brussels itself is engaged in a similar - if not
identical - crusade. There are bigger goals in mind.
The only difference between european socialism and russian stalinism - has
always been that of 'timing'. The Fabian society of Britain, predecessor of the
British Labour Party, had goals *identical* to that of Lenin. No difference.
The only ideological disagreement was that of how soon the Socialist world
state could be achieved. I do not exaggerate. ]
[All Balts can cite reams of jokes and anecdotes about the crude and abject
lies of russian communism. What they currently lack is experience to lead them
to a similar conclusion; that the EU deserves precisely the same grade of
approbium. We've done a fairly good job, you and I, in showing what russia and
the EU actually are, here in SCB. And for that we are now the conflated 'enemy
number 1'.]
Instead the pinkoid rat-pack offers
a feel-good internationalism
to replace the national culture,
history and ethnicity of the natives.
"We is all one" they warble - the
killer and the survivor. "Besides,"
head-rat preaches, "give up your
hopeless vanity languages and join
the modern international world"
babbling russkiespeak - it is the
"new wave" - yet again.
[The funny part is that they do not recognize how artificial and robotized they
sound, yammerring as they are their foreign metallic abstractions
(eurospeak/russkiespeak) at real people.
Sometimes I feel as though I ought to reach out and shake them by the lapels
and say;
'Hey dude, hey idiot robot, cut it out. Leave us alone. Lenin's dead and so
will you be too in a few years.
I know what's good for me - and it doesn't happen to be you or your unwanted
socialism.
That socialist crap doesn't matter one bit. And there is no sainthood in
Socialism, anyway.
No eternal rewards for any social realism; When you die, that's it. Same as
your dog. So get out of my way, short-timer.
You go live your life in your yard, and let me live my own in mine.
Get in my way, my pockets, or my sunshine again and it will be less pleasant -
in the non-abstracted here and now.'
And so it has been for them here in SCB...]
And so - on to the brave "new"
socialist world (it seems that it
becomes "new" again subsequent
to each failed experiment in that
direction - proving that each
generation has its own set
of fools)!
Best - - Henry
[It becomes 'new' with each new set of anti-human power addicted control thugs
having handy any new batch of hired or proselytized lackeys, who chance upon
any new group of potential victims.
The same relationship as ever before: eurasian dictators - useful idiots/hired
thugs - victims.]
[Thanks for the memo, Henry. It is timely.
We both know what the enemy is and how they will remain constantly engaged in
operations against us - at all levels. One thousand years of History proves
this.
..A fact that any real Balt knows from childhood. Which is how I know you to be
a veritable Balt.
Maybe it will change in a couple of generations - but I sort of doubt that too.
It is difficult to see how russian or german chauvanism might spontaneously
vanish.
Until later,
jonhill
Martin Georgin
>
> It seems that the pink brigade, consisting of
> ruskoids and others, have now rendered all
> of us, who do not share their vision of a
> glorious socialistic future in a nattering and
> nagging nanny state, down to one menacing
> symbol - the ultra-rightist of unknown name.
I don't get it. On a number of occasions you rebuke scb by telling us
the story of how chickens or rats turn on one of their own when they
are injured or ill, then you go on feeding that individual's mental
illness by writing paranoid clap-trap that has no basis in reality.
The truth is that the EU is just an administrative structure, created
by treaty, that allows nation states to pool their resources in areas
where there is a common interest. Power always have and always will
derive from the sovereign nation states that are members of the EU.
The laws of the EU are there to facilitate and encourage free trade
between the nation states of the EU.
For example, that infamous EU directive on cucumber curvature was not
initiated from above by some faceless beauracy, but initiated at the
request of the cucumber industry themselves so there is a standard so
buyers and sellers can trade cucumbers without having to inspect every
single one.
Regards,
Martin
Eugene Holman
<pas_d...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
<deletions>
> >"Besides," head-rat preaches, "give up your hopeless vanity languages and
> join the modern international world" babbling russkiespeak - it is >the "new
> wave" - yet again.
>
> Hey, Eugene — did you say that?
Of course not. This is another of Henry's distortions. What I did say is
that in today's world maintaining small languages such as Latvian and
Estonian I purposely excluded Lithuanian which, with more than 3,500,000
speakers, is not in as precarious a position as the far smaller Estonian
and Latvian increasingly expensive. In the longer term, all three
Baltic-area languages as well as even larger languages, such as Finnish,
Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, and Dutch, are seeing an increasing number of
central communicative functions (e.g. conducting business, creating and
assimilating scientific information, entertainment) taken over by other
languages, mostly English.
I did use the term "vanity languages" to refer to languages which are
losing functions and not gaining native speakers at the replacement rate,
but are still being stubbornly maintained at an increasingly high cost in
money and effort by their speakers, and I predicted that a century or so
from now many of their speakers will have voluntarily abandoned them and
will conduct much of their business in some larger regional language. We
don't know what politics or attitudes will be like a century or two from
now, but we can safely predict that English, German, and Russian will
still be around; as to the smaller languages of Europe, the future is
uncertain. This, of course, assumes that market forces will still play a
central role in such decisions. Being a linguist, I do not want to see any
language go the way of the dinosaurs. However, the medium-term future for
languages unable to attract tens or even hundreds of millions of speakers
looks bleak.
> >And so - on to the brave "new" socialist world (it seems that it becomes
> "new" again subsequent to each failed experiment in that direction -
> >proving that each generation has its own set of fools)!
>
> Ach, finally yla iš maišo išlindo! So you think EU is 'socialistic' —
> that's what's bugging you. Well where did you get that notion?
There's a lot about Europe that Henry does not understand. He evidently
thinks that a society in which the main organizing principle is "every man
to himself and to hell with everyone else" is better than one organized so
that there are few super rich, but fewer very poor, and all people share
some sense of social responsibility. He complains about Western European
tax levels, but blithley accepts the fact that almost 1/5 of American
children live in abject poverty. He does not understand that the college
tuition fund that he has to set up for his children at birth, the health
insurance that he has to pay expensive premiums on, the car insurance and
tolls he has to pay on each ofhis family's cars because there is no
functioning public transportation system, and the money he has to pay to
isolate himself from the crime, poverty, and the social tensions between
haves and have-nots that make every day lived through in the US a gold
star on a survival game chart, are forms of taxation that he has to pay,
but which Western Europeans are mostly spared. I won't even discuss the
"Empire Tax" he has to pay, now that the US has decided to involve itself
in wars on the other side of the planet at an annual of at least
$150,000,000,000.
The Baltic countries looked to America as a role model after they regained
their independence, and they have done an admirable job of generating
wealth and opportunity for those citizens who are bright, ambitious, and
greedy. This means that there are a lot of rich bankers, industrialists,
fashion models, and media personalities, as well as an increasingly
affluent middle class of entrepreneurs, used car salesmen, and politicos.
Unfortunately, nobody can visit a Baltic city without noticing that many
people, including cripples and elderly people, are not doing well.
Abandoned children are also a tangible social problem in some places,
notably Tallinn.
The American way of looking at these things is to say, well, that's tough,
there can't be winners if there are no losers. Western European societies,
in turn, have generally come to the consensus that a modern industrial
society produces enough wealth to ensure that everyone has a minimal
standard of living, that the best way to judge the success of a society os
to look at how it treats its weakest members, and, most importantly, that
it is the height of folly and immorality to punish children for the
mistakes made by their parents, thus passing poverrty and social problems
down to the next generation. The issue boils down to one of whether taxes
are a necessary evil or, alternatively, the price that we pay to ensure a
redistribution of income that will compensate for some of the social
inequalities resulting from market forces. Or to put it more crudely, to
what degree should society compensate, if at all, for the fact that market
forces allow a woman with the requisite physical attributes to earn 100
times more an hour sitting and being photographed than teaching children,
caring for the sick and elderly, or working in a factory?
The countries of the EU are not as rich as the US measured in terms of
output per worker or income per capita. To compensate for this we have
real summer vacations, paid maternity and paternity leave, children's
allowances, quality subsidized day care, universal health care, free
education, and minimal poverty. This is called quality of life, and this
is a model of society that the 91% of the Lithuanian electorate that voted
"Yes" for EU membership would like to see adapted to the specific
conditions in their country.
Regards,
Eugene Holman, designated leader of the SCB pinkoid rat pack
Tomi A
news:holman-1109...@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi:
I've been reading Allard's and Starck's "Vähemmistö, kieli ja yhteiskunta"
("Minority, language, and society"). It was published in 1981 so the
statistics are a bit out of date but otherwise it's worth reading. The book
discusses minoriteis in Europe, Finland, and Helsinki - particularly the
Swedish-speaking minority in Finland.
There are several different mechnism by which people change their language
in addition to what is referred to above. Perhaps the most important has
been marriage. It seems that the general rule is that the smaller the
minority the more often there are marriages with the majority, of course.
Furthermore, the children of these marriages consider themselves bilingual
but it seems that the grandchildren will more often than not adopt the
language and identity of the majority.
Another mechanism for a language change is education. If "minority parents"
wish to put their children in a "majority school" the children tend to
identify themselves with the majority. The parents' wishes, of course, have
to do with what they think is good for the children, i.e. employment.
Yet another mechanism is migration. In a modern society where you have to
move to find a job, members of a minority are likely to move to "majority
areas". There the children have little incentive to hold on to their
language and minority identity. (There are also minorites which quite often
succeed in maintaining their identity in such a case, the Jews being an
obvious example.)
In general most of the mechanisms listed in the book have to do with
center-peripherý relation. After all most of the minorities exist exactly
because they are in the periphery or have been one time in their past.
In short the dynamics of a modern society regarding these peripheries tend
to push people away from them (also "psychologically"), particularly during
economically hard times - which may be the normal state in many
peripheries. When the times get better, some of the people will move back
to their "minority area" but quite a few will stay in the center, and loose
their identy.
Now - and the following reasoning regarding the EU is obviously not from
the book - in the EU this periphery mechanism is bound to get stronger - or
in fact it already has - with the common job market, increasing
international trade and so on.
The big question seems to be whether the eastern Baltic sea states are in
periphery or not. If they are, their identity and language is "doomed" to
become weaker, but in the opposite case they might get stronger instead. In
the book there is a map which includes south-western Finland in the center.
The Baltic countries, on the other hand are excluded, as is most of the
eastern bloc. Unfortunately, the reason for the border being drawn the way
it is, is not explained. (I would guess that the Soviet Union and Leningrad
in particular have something to do with why part of Finland is in the
center.)
So, obviously the right thing to do, if one is interested in maintaining
one's language is to become or stay part of the center. But I'm afraid this
says next to nothing unless we know what it means in practice. In my
opinion, one of the main things is to help Russia on its feet. That way the
European center would move even further to the east and north and thus
making it easier to "survive". Another strategy, which Finland has sofar
succesfully followed, is to become a "hi-tech country", hi-tech, after all,
sort of steps ouside the geocraphical boundaries, more or less.
If a country manges to become part of the center, people from peripheries
will move in. In such a case it's important to see to it that the
immigrants are intergrated into the society so that they'll become "one of
us" and thus speaking "our" language, the way it's happening in the USA,
Canada and so on.
Hey, this is getting really long, I wonder if anybody is still awake. Well,
at least I'm educating myself.
One more thing. Identity and language can survive only if the people want
it to survive. And they want it, in the long run, if they believe that its
survivival somehow benefits them. The benefits are not always obvious,
particularly nowadays when nationalism is not fashionable - in schools
children learn to think globally rather than nationally and later on in
work they learn to think economically. And yet, certain (dare I say social-
democrat) national states have managed to create systems which are better
than most. I believe that this is no coincident; nationalism can be a force
which makes societies use their resources better than perhaps any other
system we've seen so far (and keep the wealth within its borders, but
that's another story).
To get back to the book, the authors are not at all pessimistic regarding
the survival of the minorities and their languages. On the contrary, in the
late 70s they saw many signs of things getting better. I can't tell how
they'd see the situation today.
> He
> complains about Western European tax levels,
If Henry is an average American he pays about the same amount of
dollars/euros in taxes as an average European. This pardox (paying so much
and recieving so little) can be partially explained by the inefficiency of
the public services in the USA. This has led many Americans believe that
public services are inefficient everywhere and simply refuse to believe if
they are told otherwise.
Tomi
pas de deux
No comment on the barely literate bottom line.
GK
"Jonhillr" <jonh...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030910210902...@mb-m13.aol.com...
Martin
"Tomi A" <Your....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns93F394DA1A...@192.89.123.233...
> hol...@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote in
> news:holman-1109...@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi:
>
> > In article <eZN7b.3368$z5.2...@news20.bellglobal.com>, "pas de deux"
> > <pas_d...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >
> > <deletions>
> >
> >> >"Besides," head-rat preaches, "give up your hopeless vanity
> >> >languages and
> >> join the modern international world" babbling russkiespeak - it is
> >> >the "new wave" - yet again.
> >>
I'm still awake :) Sounds like an interesting book. So it seems the key to
language survival is the creation of a strong economy with plenty of
employment opportunities?
Regards,
Martin
Eugene Holman
<Your....@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> hol...@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote in
> news:holman-1109...@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi:
>
<deletions>
>
> Hey, this is getting really long, I wonder if anybody is still awake. Well,
> at least I'm educating myself.
It was very perceptive. You might be interested in a book by the
Finland-Swedish sociolinguist Tandefelt, Marika,
Mellan två språk : en fallstudie om språkbevarande och språkbyte i
Finland. It's a longitudinal study of six generations of a family in
Vantaa, who were 100% Swedish speaking in the 1880s, and are now 100%
Finnish speaking. The factors you enumerated are illustrated by case
studies.
> One more thing. Identity and language can survive only if the people want
> it to survive. And they want it, in the long run, if they believe that its
> survivival somehow benefits them.
And it will not survive if it's people convince themselves, or other
people convince them, that it is a burden. The most sobering example in
Europe today is Irish. The citizens of Luxembourg have also have not bee
been interested in seeing the local language Lezebuurjesh, become an
official EU language.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
J. Anderson
Let me give you a real life example that seems to corroborate the theories
of that book.
My mother's cousin, a monolingual Finn from Turku, married a monolingual
(i.e. Swedish-speaking) girl from the Åland islands. She moved to Turku. I
don't know how they communicated in the beginning - perhaps they didn't -
but they had four children, all girls, so obviously they didn't need
language that much...
In a microcosm, for her, this was moving from the periphery to the centre.
She spoke Swedish to their daughters, and he spoke Finnish. However, all the
girls went to 'Tipula' - a Finnish-speaking school. They became completely
bilingual.
Then they married. Three married Finnish-speakers, and one married a
Swedish-speaker. They all had children. Here the homebased Swedish language
proficiency disappears in all other cases except in the family with the
Swedish-speaking father and where the children went to a Swedish-speaking
school.
What does this prove?
1) That the role of the mother is decisive (that's why we're talking of a
mother tongue).
2) That the availability of minority language schools is another necessity
if the 'weaker' language is to be properly preserved.
3) That it's hardly possible for a bi-lingual parent to keep up the 'weaker'
language in a family with a monolingual 'stronger' language spouse. The
motivation normally isn't there. Thus the weaker language tends to disappear
in the third generation, which also is the crucial phase when we look at the
language shift in migrated families.
Or something like that.
John
Tomi A
server.bigpond.net.au:
> So it seems the key to
> language survival is the creation of a strong economy with plenty of
> employment opportunities?
Well, you can put it like that if you want to ruin my credibility by
explaining the whole thing in two lines instead of fifty-something:-) But
seriously, perhaps it's not that simple. As I tried to explain in the part
you snipped, there has to be a will to preserve a language. In fact, the
book discusses this side more than the mechanisms of the language shift.
"In which circumstances do people want to preserve their minority (or
peripherical) language and identity and in which circumstances they are
able to?"
Furthermore, hopefully the periphery-center model tells us something we
wouldn't come to think of otherwise. For example the unforunate tendency of
economical cycles to pump people out of minorities. Or that Russia's
recovery would be a good thing because it shifts the center towards our
part of the world. Or the importance to accept new immigrants from the
periphery ... or the danger of the opposite. Anyway, I'm just trying to
understand the thing myself. I'm rather pessimistic the way E. Holman seems
to be, but now I'm trying to figure out if there still is a way to survive
the EU (or globalization which would have been a better title).
pas de deux
news:Xns93F394DA1A...@192.89.123.233...
> ("Minority, language, and society"). It was published in 1981 so the
> statistics are a bit out of date but otherwise it's worth reading. The
book
> discusses minoriteis in Europe, Finland, and Helsinki - particularly the
> Swedish-speaking minority in Finland.
Sounds like a very sensible and logical book. I like that type of
sociolinguistics.
> There are several different mechnism by which people change their language
> in addition to what is referred to above. Perhaps the most important has
> been marriage. It seems that the general rule is that the smaller the
> minority the more often there are marriages with the majority, of course.
> Furthermore, the children of these marriages consider themselves bilingual
> but it seems that the grandchildren will more often than not adopt the
> language and identity of the majority.
100% correct. You see this all over the place, including in Québec where I
live now. (Kids in the street and supermarket being addressed by a parent
or grandparent in French but answering in English.)
> Another mechanism for a language change is education. If "minority
parents"
> wish to put their children in a "majority school" the children tend to
> identify themselves with the majority. The parents' wishes, of course,
have
> to do with what they think is good for the children, i.e. employment.
Definitely. Also illustrated in Québec with parents thinking they're
helping their kids by trying to get them into an English-medium school.
(Meanwhile, truly enlightened parents, including some native-born
anglophones, realise the kid will learn English willy-nilly so they quite
sensibly send them to French-medium school.)
> Yet another mechanism is migration. In a modern society where you have to
> move to find a job, members of a minority are likely to move to "majority
> areas". There the children have little incentive to hold on to their
> language and minority identity. (There are also minorites which quite
often
> succeed in maintaining their identity in such a case, the Jews being an
> obvious example.)
OK up until the part about the Jews. Their case is very different of
course, because they are not trying to preserve an ethnic language. (Hebrew
is only liturgical – and most of them know about the same amount of Hebrew
as Catholics did of Latin: just a few words, no grammar.)
> In general most of the mechanisms listed in the book have to do with
> center-periphery relation. After all most of the minorities exist exactly
> because they are in the periphery or have been one time in their past.
>
> In short the dynamics of a modern society regarding these peripheries tend
> to push people away from them (also "psychologically"), particularly
during
> economically hard times - which may be the normal state in many
> peripheries. When the times get better, some of the people will move back
> to their "minority area" but quite a few will stay in the center, and
loose
> their identy.
>
> Now - and the following reasoning regarding the EU is obviously not from
> the book - in the EU this periphery mechanism is bound to get stronger -
or
> in fact it already has - with the common job market, increasing
> international trade and so on.
Look at Switzerland, the German part. They all speak standard German, and a
high percentage of them English too, nut Schwytzertütsch has not been
pushed out, and I hear tell it's even getting stronger, now used on some TV
shows and Internet chat groups. (And it has NEVER been taught in school!)
> The big question seems to be whether the eastern Baltic sea states are in
> periphery or not. If they are, their identity and language is "doomed" to
> become weaker, but in the opposite case they might get stronger instead.
In
> the book there is a map which includes south-western Finland in the
center.
> The Baltic countries, on the other hand are excluded, as is most of the
> eastern bloc. Unfortunately, the reason for the border being drawn the way
> it is, is not explained. (I would guess that the Soviet Union and
Leningrad
> in particular have something to do with why part of Finland is in the
> center.)
I don't follow this, but forget it. Lithuanian is safe. There are language
laws and they are here to stay.
> So, obviously the right thing to do, if one is interested in maintaining
> one's language is to become or stay part of the center. But I'm afraid
this
> says next to nothing unless we know what it means in practice. In my
> opinion, one of the main things is to help Russia on its feet. That way
the
> European center would move even further to the east and north and thus
> making it easier to "survive". Another strategy, which Finland has sofar
> succesfully followed, is to become a "hi-tech country", hi-tech, after
all,
> sort of steps ouside the geocraphical boundaries, more or less.
You're losing me again. Russia should be helped until Putin is out and the
mafiosi are in jail.
> If a country manges to become part of the center, people from peripheries
> will move in. In such a case it's important to see to it that the
> immigrants are intergrated into the society so that they'll become "one of
> us" and thus speaking "our" language, the way it's happening in the USA,
> Canada and so on.
Again I think you're wandering into the woods and getting off the track.
> One more thing. Identity and language can survive only if the people want
> it to survive. And they want it, in the long run, if they believe that its
> survivival somehow benefits them.
How about self-respect?
>The benefits are not always obvious, particularly nowadays when nationalism
is not fashionable -
Who said it's not? Heard of the "Patriot Act"? "Freedom Fries"?
> nationalism can be a force
> which makes societies use their resources better than perhaps any other
> system we've seen so far and keep the wealth within its borders
Yes. Smaller is better.
Gintautas Kaminskas
a Lithuanian in Montréal
pas de deux
news:6IZ7b.94728$bo1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>So it seems the key to language survival is the creation of a strong
economy with plenty of employment opportunities?
"A strong economy with plenty of employment opportunities" will help the
national language and everything else. But the key to the language's
viability is a popular and political will for it to survive. Sometimes this
means saying, too bad if it's not 'cost effective' – we'er doing it anyway.
Because without it, what are we?
GK
88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888
Eryk
> symbol - the ultra-rightist of unknown name.
Nothing 'unknown' about it .....Reactionary, Republican voting Americans.
> individual. The individualist who understands
> the meaning of freedom - practices freedom
> in his daily life and promotes it via all available
> means, in their view, should be treated
OK, so you are opposed to democracy, is that what you are saying? You don't
believe in the right of the majority to dictate to the minority? Individual
'freedom' as an overriding principle is fundamentally incompatible with
'majority rule' after all, so which is it?
> as a leper - an outcast. It is this type of
> individual who is fully aware of the leftist's
> methodology of stealing freedom via
> absurd promises of cradle to grade economic
> security. The economic blessings that they
> spread, however, are stolen from the neighbor
Pure mendacity and hypocrisy. Cumulative tax burden on the individual is
little different in the USA from most of Europe, the difference is you are
allowing yourself to be robbed blind because you get so little in in return
for all the tax you hand over to the government! 'Freedom' in this context
is simply the 'freedom' for politicians to buy off anti-democratic vested
interests ('big business') using *your* money to manipulate *their*
re-election!! If it wasn't for the tragic level of child poverty and squalid
health care in the USA it would be amusing.
> who may have a bit more. A strange concept
> of "wealth creation" indeed. They did not
You can't 'create wealth' any more than you can 'create matter' .....all you
can do is move the finite quantity that esists around in various ways.
> tax, and tax and tax. The result, in the
> end is similar to that achieved by Stalin
> - all individual initiative is killed and you
> end up with a stagnant and even retrogressing
> economy - as can be seen in Germany today.
'Individual initiative' like Enron accounting practices you mean? You
definitely have a point about Germany however. Economy strangled by
restrictive employment practices, unsustainable pension provision etc. etc.
Luckily for the Germans the competitive pressures of the single European
market and assorted other EU inspired standardisations are gradually
correcting the excessively socialistic aspects of the German economy.
Witness the upcoming showdown between the governemnt and IG Mettal.
> But it is not just the economic sector that
> they attack. They also steal your national
> sovereignty and attempt to destroy your
> relationship to your nation - ridiculing
> your history, culture, ethnicity - all of
You are the one with the apparently 'unstable' relationship with your
'nation'. You are American and yet you persistently seem to try to obfuscate
that identity and impersonate (laughably badly) a 'European'.
> - just attempting to recover from the
> russkie-imposed version of the same
<snip>
> possibly object to the blessings of their
> system.
What has that got to do with the EU? Do you seriously imagine that Brussels
is going to order in tanks to the streets of Riga under the EU flag? You are
either deranged or being deliberately mendacious.
> differentiate between a Latvian and a
> russkie anymore - all are identical proles
> warming their weary bones under the
Again, it is you who seems to have the problem drawing such distinctions. I
can and do differentiate very precisely ...Latvians have Latvian passports,
Russians have Russian ones ...simple.
> victims and the victims are deemed
> evil - for showing the *slightest*
> sign of resentment at the murder
> of their families and the looting of
> their family possessions - not to
> mention the denigration of their
Tripe. Russia should still implement it's own version of Neuremberg and hunt
down 'Bolshevik Socialists' the same way their erstwhile allies the
'National Socialists' were hunted down after WW2. This has, of course,
nothing whatever to do with the majority of Russian speaking Latvians etc.
which is the purely racist 'point' that you were trying to make.
<snip crap>
Eryk
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 19/08/2003
pas de deux
The role of the mother is indeed decisive. Where there is only one
bilingual parent in the family (as was the case with me and my sons in
Australia) it was impossible to keep the 'weaker' language (as you call it)
because rather than talk to me in Lithuanian it was always easier for them
to run off and talk to their mother in the 'stronger' language (as you
callit), English, the language of their scholl, friends, society, TV,
everything.
You are alos right about the availability (or not) of minority language
schools. Minority languages are doomed without this because the language
has no 'status' in the eyes of the kids (as they become cynical teenagers
they start to call it a "loser language") and there is
motivation for them to speak it.
What hope of survival does an immigrant minority language have in the New
World (or in Europe for that matter) when French in Québec, which, if not
quite 'indigenous' after three and a half cenutries is at least official in
Québec, cannot even hold its own against English?
Gintautas Kaminskas
Montréal
*******************
"J. Anderson" <ar...@iname.com> wrote in message
news:bjppqi$j8n$1...@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi...
Vidas
young to remember his DP camp days, but after arriving in the US he
grew up in the 50's and 60's where fear of all things non American was
normal. Layered on top of this was the emigre resentment of
displacement (which I will defend). Ultimately though, there were some
who grew out of this environment with an abnormal level of hatred.
Even some, as I suspect is Henry's case, a hatred of those things
related to conditions unknown to them (ie Jonnies keyword foreign).
Henry doesn't understand a socialist Europe. He can't acknowledge the
political environment - and is left to fear and loath it lacking any
other emotional response. Post war Europe was "supposed" to develop in
the mold as directed by the US in reconstruction. It didn't though. It
adopted a more socialist mindset and ultimately rejected the US's
template as being not suited to them. This created alot of resentment
amongst Americans (which Henry fosters) in that a rejection of their
ideal is viewed as the ultimate insult.
Henry is a highly intelligent person. He's articulate. He presents his
ideas in a manner and level that can be respected. However, Mr
Kalninsh, exudes no such qualities. He presents no arguments of his
own (well, none that make much sense anyway). His posts are generally
cut and paste reports of other people's work (as is Henry's really).
Mr Kalninsh makes false claims as to his identity and, like Henry,
refuses to present information which would establish relevance and
justification of their positions. Still, their personalities are quite
opposite. Although, as the saying goes, opposites attract - this
generally is not the case on intellectual levels.
So what unites them ? Very simply - hate. Clearly they hate all things
russian - but it doesnt stop there. They hate communists - and
socialists to which I bet they don't understand the difference. They
don't want to understand the difference. That would be too much
against the grain.
They both feel that this newsgroup is their turf to present hate,
suspicion and distrust as the base mechanism for the future of the
Baltics.
I, for one, don't feel that this newsgroup is their turf. I don't feel
that their ideal holds any future for the Baltics. The irony is that
the last government that based much of its policies on hate, distrust
and suspicion was the soviet union. We all know how bad that was. I
for one would not care to relive it in Henry and Jon's vision of the
world.
Vidas
henry alminas
"Eryk" <n...@way.com> wrote in message
news:VF_7b.276$1x6.1...@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
***************
>
> You can't 'create wealth' any more than you can 'create matter' .....all
you
> can do is move the finite quantity that esists around in various ways.
Have you published on this or is this your first proud walk with
this particular dog? Har, har, har.
Best - - Henry
Martin Georgin
> "Martin" <mart...@joymail.com> wrote in news:6IZ7b.94728$bo1.81179@news-
> server.bigpond.net.au:
>
> > So it seems the key to
> > language survival is the creation of a strong economy with plenty of
> > employment opportunities?
>
> Well, you can put it like that if you want to ruin my credibility by
> explaining the whole thing in two lines instead of fifty-something:-) But
Sorry about that, my engineer's brain wants to reduce every thing down
to simple concepts :)
> seriously, perhaps it's not that simple. As I tried to explain in the part
> you snipped, there has to be a will to preserve a language. In fact, the
> book discusses this side more than the mechanisms of the language shift.
> "In which circumstances do people want to preserve their minority (or
> peripherical) language and identity and in which circumstances they are
> able to?"
>
> Furthermore, hopefully the periphery-center model tells us something we
> wouldn't come to think of otherwise. For example the unforunate tendency of
> economical cycles to pump people out of minorities. Or that Russia's
> recovery would be a good thing because it shifts the center towards our
> part of the world. Or the importance to accept new immigrants from the
> periphery ... or the danger of the opposite. Anyway, I'm just trying to
> understand the thing myself. I'm rather pessimistic the way E. Holman seems
> to be, but now I'm trying to figure out if there still is a way to survive
> the EU (or globalization which would have been a better title).
I'm more optimistic for the following reasons:
Estonian identity is strongly linked to the estonian language
Estonian is the offical state language of Estonia.
The estonian language will become an offical language of the EU if
Estonia joins the EU
By 2007 all students in public schools will be taught in the Estonian
language.
The Estonian economy will continue to grow.
Regards,
Martin
Eugene Holman
sia...@aol.com (Vidas) wrote:
<deletions>
>
> Henry is a highly intelligent person. He's articulate. He presents his
> ideas in a manner and level that can be respected. However, Mr
> Kalninsh, exudes no such qualities. He presents no arguments of his
> own (well, none that make much sense anyway). His posts are generally
> cut and paste reports of other people's work (as is Henry's really).
> Mr Kalninsh makes false claims as to his identity and, like Henry,
> refuses to present information which would establish relevance and
> justification of their positions. Still, their personalities are quite
> opposite. Although, as the saying goes, opposites attract - this
> generally is not the case on intellectual levels.
>
> So what unites them ? Very simply - hate. Clearly they hate all things
> russian - but it doesnt stop there. They hate communists - and
> socialists to which I bet they don't understand the difference. They
> don't want to understand the difference. That would be too much
> against the grain.
>
> They both feel that this newsgroup is their turf to present hate,
> suspicion and distrust as the base mechanism for the future of the
> Baltics.
>
> I, for one, don't feel that this newsgroup is their turf. I don't feel
> that their ideal holds any future for the Baltics. The irony is that
> the last government that based much of its policies on hate, distrust
> and suspicion was the soviet union. We all know how bad that was. I
> for one would not care to relive it in Henry and Jon's vision of the
> world.
Excellent posting. I, for one, have been saddened to see Henry sink from
being an articulate spokesman for conservative viewpoints to a marginally
*salonfähig* upgrade of the nejęga.
Henry has recently posted on the importance of freedom of speech, but that
has not prevented him from trying, not always without success, to silence
or deprecate voices in SCB that present viewpoints or interpretations with
which he disagrees.
Thanks for your posting.
Regards,
Eugene Holman, designated SCB pinkoid rat pack leader
Eryk
> > You can't 'create wealth' any more than you can 'create matter' .....all
> you
> > can do is move the finite quantity that esists around in various ways.
>
> Have you published on this or is this your first proud walk with
> this particular dog? Har, har, har.
Wow! Henry!! You've disproved the First Law of Thermodynamics? I'm
impressed!! Please tell us more about this ground breaking discovery of
yours!!
Eryk
PS: ....and before you post something stupid like: "This is economics, not
thermodynamics." try and think about the subject and it's implications for a
moment.
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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Eugene Holman
mart...@joymail.com (Martin Georgin) wrote:
<deletions>
> I'm more optimistic for the following reasons:
> Estonian identity is strongly linked to the estonian language
> Estonian is the offical state language of Estonia.
> The estonian language will become an offical language of the EU if
> Estonia joins the EU
> By 2007 all students in public schools will be taught in the Estonian
> language.
> The Estonian economy will continue to grow.
These are important points. However, there are some dark clouds on the horizon.
€ Estonian has only 1,100,000 native speakers. That makes it far more
expensive to maintain than a language with even ten times more native
speakers. By maintain I mean such things as being a large enough market
for multinationals to recognize the importance of providing fully
Estonianized communications software and hardware, for having the resource
to get scientitific information into and out of Estonian, and for
providing speakers of Estonian with consumer information in their own
language that speakers of larger languages take for granted, etc., etc.
This is even becoming a problem for Finland, with a richer country and a
language with five times as many speakers.
€ Estonian PM Juhan Parts has called attention to the sad fact that more
Estonians are dying than are being born to replace them. Estonian is a
small language, but its absolute number of speakers is decreasing, even if
it is now acquring second language speakers from the Russian-speaking
population at a healthy rate.
€ Estonian identity is indeed strongly linked to the Estonian language,
but that is a relic of 19th century Romanticism and could change as
culture, values, and respect for tradition changes. The sobering example
is Irish, a language many Irishmen of today would prefer to have as little
to do with as possible.
€ Even though Estonian will be one of the official EU languages, with more
than 20 official languages, the EU will have to have a linguistic
shake-out. Already Irish and Lezebuurjesh have no official status, and I
am eager to see what happens to Maltese. In any case, there is going to be
pressure to make some official langauges more official than others, and
that a lot of that pressure to take a back seat will be on small
languages.
Believe me, I do not await such developments. Our company is translating
EU documents into and out of Estonian at a furious pace and we have no
desire to see the goose laying those golden eggs slaughtered. Estonia
needs to do everything humanly possible to raise the number of speakers
above the 3,000,000 limit which appears to be what is needed for real
linguistic viability in a contemporary industrial society.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Eryk
> culture, values, and respect for tradition changes. The sobering example
> is Irish, a language many Irishmen of today would prefer to have as little
> to do with as possible.
The same applies to Welsh, a language that slipped from about 1 million
speakers to around half that between 1911 and 1991. However, that does not
mean Welsh is a dead language or even a dying one, it just means that it has
had to adjust to being relegated to the status of an optional second
language rather than the default means of communication. I don't have your
expertise of course, but it seems to me from the anecdotal evidence I am
aware of that small languages can and do persist and even grow (Welsh
literacy showed an increase in the 2001 census) once they stop 'butting
heads' with the de facto primary language and adjust to their secondary
status.
Eryk
Dmitry
> Yes, that about sums it up.
>
> The role of the mother is indeed decisive. Where there is only one
> bilingual parent in the family (as was the case with me and my sons in
> Australia) it was impossible to keep the 'weaker' language (as you call it)
> because rather than talk to me in Lithuanian it was always easier for them
> to run off and talk to their mother in the 'stronger' language (as you
> callit), English, the language of their scholl, friends, society, TV,
> everything.
This is very true. Kids always use the most convenient way of
communication and unless the parents insist they stick to the language
of the place they live.
Martin
"Eugene Holman" <hol...@elo.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:holman-1209...@10.1.1.191...
> In article <a656d98c.03091...@posting.google.com>,
> mart...@joymail.com (Martin Georgin) wrote:
>
> <deletions>
>
> > I'm more optimistic for the following reasons:
> > Estonian identity is strongly linked to the estonian language
> > Estonian is the offical state language of Estonia.
> > The estonian language will become an offical language of the EU if
> > Estonia joins the EU
> > By 2007 all students in public schools will be taught in the Estonian
> > language.
> > The Estonian economy will continue to grow.
>
> These are important points. However, there are some dark clouds on the
horizon.
I'm not surprised you see them Eugene.
> € Estonian has only 1,100,000 native speakers. That makes it far more
> expensive to maintain than a language with even ten times more native
> speakers. By maintain I mean such things as being a large enough market
> for multinationals to recognize the importance of providing fully
> Estonianized communications software and hardware, for having the resource
> to get scientitific information into and out of Estonian, and for
> providing speakers of Estonian with consumer information in their own
> language that speakers of larger languages take for granted, etc., etc.
> This is even becoming a problem for Finland, with a richer country and a
> language with five times as many speakers.
We have been down this road before. Increasingly there are Estonianised
software and hardware being made available. I've already demostrated that
adding consumer information in Estonian is a trivial affair, my french made
heater I installed recently had a printed user manual in german, english,
czech and estonian. There already are efforts in developing english/finnish
and english/estonian machine translation software, what efforts is your
university doing in research and development of such linguistic software at
your university?
> € Estonian PM Juhan Parts has called attention to the sad fact that more
> Estonians are dying than are being born to replace them. Estonian is a
> small language, but its absolute number of speakers is decreasing, even if
> it is now acquring second language speakers from the Russian-speaking
> population at a healthy rate.
So? Populations are in decline across Europe. As Estonia's properity
increases and people feel more confident about the future, no doubt the
population will increase. Estonia probably has the lowest proportion of
people who believe in God in Europe today. If Estonians could find their
Christian roots again, I have no doubt the population will begin to grow.
Estonia is larger in area than the Netherlands or Denmark, so Estonia has a
lot of room to grow.
> € Estonian identity is indeed strongly linked to the Estonian language,
> but that is a relic of 19th century Romanticism and could change as
> culture, values, and respect for tradition changes. The sobering example
> is Irish, a language many Irishmen of today would prefer to have as little
> to do with as possible.
The only relic is you, Eugene, Irish were under English rule for hundreds of
years, no doubt if Russia had ruled Estonia for another 50 years, Estonian
would be in the same situation as Irish.
> € Even though Estonian will be one of the official EU languages, with more
> than 20 official languages, the EU will have to have a linguistic
> shake-out. Already Irish and Lezebuurjesh have no official status, and I
> am eager to see what happens to Maltese. In any case, there is going to be
> pressure to make some official langauges more official than others, and
> that a lot of that pressure to take a back seat will be on small
> languages.
Your choice of language is a bit deceptive "Already" implies that Irish and
Lezebuurjesh languages were once official EU languages but no longer, to
support you speculation that there will be a language "shake out" in the EU.
Irish and Lezebuurjesh were never official languages of the EU.
>
> Believe me, I do not await such developments. Our company is translating
> EU documents into and out of Estonian at a furious pace and we have no
> desire to see the goose laying those golden eggs slaughtered. Estonia
> needs to do everything humanly possible to raise the number of speakers
> above the 3,000,000 limit which appears to be what is needed for real
> linguistic viability in a contemporary industrial society.
Gee, 3,000,000 now. Last time you claimed 1,500,000 was the limit. Maybe
next year it will be 5,000,000?
Regards,
Martin
Tomi A
server.bigpond.net.au:
> As Estonia's properity
> increases and people feel more confident about the future, no doubt the
> population will increase.
By the way, that was my point. If Estonia (or any other geocraphically
peripherical country around here) manages to become a center drawing new
people into "Estonianess" the language will survive. Particularly the
Russian-speaking population should be allured to become Estonians - rather
than EU-citizens. What I wrote about nationalism is the key issue, believe
it or not: are "we" somhow "better" than the rest? If we are not better,
who cares what happens to the language and identity. "It's cool to be an
Estonian", that's what the people should be thinking.
Tomi
J. Anderson
"Tomi A" <Your....@invalid.invalid> skrev i meddelandet
news:Xns93F563E7E...@192.89.123.233...
How about importing Finnic people from Russia to Estonia and Finland? I
mean, don't we have a certain 'responsibility' as far as our brother (or
cousin) nations are concerned?
Of course they should be monolingually Finnic... Otherwise they band up with
the local Russians. Are there any Karelians, Komi, Mordvinians or Mari out
there who want to be rescued?
Not that the recent import of Ingrians has been very successful, AFAIK. (Or
should that be HIFK?)
John
A couple of links:
http://peacecountry0.tripod.com/fincoop.htm (Uralic Family Homepage)
http://www.suri.ee/kongress/kolmas/en/ecology.html (3rd World Congress of
the Finno-Ugric Peoples; the 4th one will be in Tallinn 15-19 August next
year)
Tomi A
news:7_k8b.1911$1x6.5...@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net:
> Eugene,
>
>> culture, values, and respect for tradition changes. The sobering
>> example is Irish, a language many Irishmen of today would prefer to
>> have as little to do with as possible.
>
> The same applies to Welsh, a language that slipped from about 1
> million speakers to around half that between 1911 and 1991. However,
> that does not mean Welsh is a dead language or even a dying one, it
> just means that it has had to adjust to being relegated to the status
> of an optional second language rather than the default means of
> communication. I don't have your expertise of course, but it seems to
> me from the anecdotal evidence I am aware of that small languages can
> and do persist and even grow (Welsh literacy showed an increase in the
> 2001 census) once they stop 'butting heads' with the de facto primary
> language and adjust to their secondary status.
>
The number of Finland's Swedes is increasing after deacades.
Tomi
Tomi A
>
> "Tomi A" <Your....@invalid.invalid> skrev i meddelandet
> news:Xns93F563E7E...@192.89.123.233...
>> "Martin" <mart...@joymail.com> wrote in
>> news:0op8b.97380$bo1.53299@news- server.bigpond.net.au:
>>
>> > As Estonia's properity
>> > increases and people feel more confident about the future, no doubt
>> > the population will increase.
>>
>> By the way, that was my point. If Estonia (or any other
>> geocraphically peripherical country around here) manages to become a
>> center drawing new people into "Estonianess" the language will
>> survive. Particularly the Russian-speaking population should be
>> allured to become Estonians - rather than EU-citizens. What I wrote
>> about nationalism is the key issue, believe it or not: are "we"
>> somhow "better" than the rest? If we are not better, who cares what
>> happens to the language and identity. "It's cool to be an Estonian",
>> that's what the people should be thinking.
>
> How about importing Finnic people from Russia to Estonia and Finland?
> I mean, don't we have a certain 'responsibility' as far as our brother
> (or cousin) nations are concerned?
>
> Of course they should be monolingually Finnic... Otherwise they band
> up with the local Russians. Are there any Karelians, Komi, Mordvinians
> or Mari out there who want to be rescued?
>
> Not that the recent import of Ingrians has been very successful,
> AFAIK. (Or should that be HIFK?)
Firstly, Ingerians have been a catastrophe (my wife happens to be a social
worker).
Secondly, nobody has to be monoligualically Finnish. The point is to be
proud of "Finnishess". That's a hard task and the racism or ethocentrity
doesn't help.
Thirdly, if you were born in Turku it can't be HIFK.
Tomi
PS I went for a walk with my 11 year-old kid who studies at a school where
all studying will be in English at the end of the school, after three
years, that is. We spoke English while walking, just for fun - or should I
say pidgin English. Anyway, sometime along the line I changed back to
Finnish and my kid said: "Pheew, aren't we speaking English anymore. What
a relief."
J. Anderson
"Tomi A" <Your....@invalid.invalid> skrev i meddelandet
How can you say such a thing? I hope Inger isn't reading this!
> Secondly, nobody has to be monoligualically Finnish. The point is to be
> proud of "Finnishess". That's a hard task and the racism or ethocentrity
> doesn't help.
Yeah, it's not easy to be proud without looking down at others.
> Thirdly, if you were born in Turku it can't be HIFK.
I was born in Helsinki*, but we used to live in what was once Turuntie
(today Mannerheimintie), only one block from where HIFK is playing. But of
course you're right, in my heart I'm a Civis Aboensis, so I should have
written ÅIFK (do they still exist?).
> PS I went for a walk with my 11 year-old kid who studies at a school where
> all studying will be in English at the end of the school, after three
> years, that is. We spoke English while walking, just for fun - or should I
> say pidgin English. Anyway, sometime along the line I changed back to
> Finnish and my kid said: "Pheew, aren't we speaking English anymore. What
> a relief."
Two kids of a friend of mine have been going to such a school for several
years now (they are 12 and 14), but they still don't like to speak English
outside the school - not even to people who don't understand Finnish. Is it
our Finnish shyness, or are the teachers unable to make the kids comfortable
with a foreign language?
John
*) Don't draw any conclusions from this regrettable fact. Like my father
used to say: 'Jesus was born in a stable, but he still wasn't a horse!'
Dmitry
> years now (they are 12 and 14), but they still don't like to speak English
> outside the school - not even to people who don't understand Finnish. Is it
> our Finnish shyness,
I've spoken to someone from Finland on a boat from Gotenborg to
Harwich, she said that there is a lot of negative attitude towards
Finns in Sweden. Almost everyone was Swedish on that ferry, and she
said that she is shy to communicate to them in Swedish, because they
will make a fool of herself because of her accent. Is it true, or was
it just her?
She was travelling to Ireland, so we gave her a lift half way through
to Sheffield. She was the only Finish person I've ever met and she
was very, very shy.
However, I remember watching Finns (men)in Riga on vodka trip.....not
shy at all.
J. Anderson
"Dmitry" <dmitry....@ntlworld.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:aadbc421.03091...@posting.google.com...
> > Two kids of a friend of mine have been going to such a school for
several
> > years now (they are 12 and 14), but they still don't like to speak
English
> > outside the school - not even to people who don't understand Finnish. Is
it
> > our Finnish shyness,
>
> I've spoken to someone from Finland on a boat from Gotenborg to
> Harwich, she said that there is a lot of negative attitude towards
> Finns in Sweden. Almost everyone was Swedish on that ferry, and she
> said that she is shy to communicate to them in Swedish, because they
> will make a fool of herself because of her accent. Is it true, or was
> it just her?
>
> She was travelling to Ireland, so we gave her a lift half way through
> to Sheffield. She was the only Finish person I've ever met and she
> was very, very shy.
>
> However, I remember watching Finns (men)in Riga on vodka trip.....not
> shy at all.
Nice of you to give her a lift, Dmitry. Yes, Finnish shyness is legendary.
We're even worse than the Swedes, who call their shyness 'reticence'.
Perhaps it has to do with our small populations inhabiting vast countries.
The physical distance has created a need for emotional distance as well?
The 'elevator syndrome' (as I call it) is a daily reminder of this shyness.
When I leave my apartment, push the elevator knob and stand in the hallway
waiting for the lift, one of my neighbours may be on his/her way out also.
(S)He opens the door to go out, spots me standing there and quickly closes
the door, waiting for me to disappear first so as to avoid having to share
the lift (which is big enough for 10 people) with me. And the reason is not
any lack in my personal hygiene. They simply don't want to communicate, not
even to just say the little word 'hei' that we use to greet each other.
Of course everything changes as soon as one gets to know one another. And -
like you mentioned - alcohol eases the tongues...
One could say a lot about Swedish attitudes to Finns, but in that respect
your Finnish hitchhiker was wrong or exaggerrating: Swedes don't laugh at
foreigners' attempts to speak Swedish. And it's perfectly all right to use
English if you feel that your rusty school Swedish is not good enough. Part
of the Finns' shyness when abroad is also a result of our school culture:
that you have to be perfectly fluent in a foreign language before you open
your mouth...
John
Uno Hu
> "Tomi A" <Your....@invalid.invalid> skrev i meddelandet
> news:Xns93F5BAB688...@192.89.123.233...
> > "J. Anderson" <ar...@iname.com> wrote in
> > news:bjuocj$6m$1...@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi:
> >
> > >
> > > "Tomi A" <Your....@invalid.invalid> skrev i meddelandet
> > > news:Xns93F563E7E...@192.89.123.233...
> > >> "Martin" <mart...@joymail.com> wrote in
> > >> news:0op8b.97380$bo1.53299@news- server.bigpond.net.au:
> > >>
> > >> > As Estonia's properity
> > >> > increases and people feel more confident about the future, no doubt
> > >> > the population will increase.
> > >>
> > >> By the way, that was my point. If Estonia (or any other
> > >> geocraphically peripherical country around here) manages to become a
> > >> center drawing new people into "Estonianess" the language will
> > >> survive.
Their is no need of "drawing" any fricken foreigner in "Estonianess"
you fool. The Estonians simply need to have more children themselves.
> > >> Particularly the Russian-speaking population should be
> > >> allured to become Estonians - rather than EU-citizens.
No, they should be assisted in returning to russia - which faces its
own larger demographic collapse.
> > >> What I wrote
> > >> about nationalism is the key issue, believe it or not: are "we"
> > >> somhow "better" than the rest?
Who is you?
> > >> If we are not better, who cares what
> > >> happens to the language and identity. "It's cool to be an Estonian",
> > >> that's what the people should be thinking.
> > >
> > > How about importing Finnic people from Russia to Estonia and Finland?
> > > I mean, don't we have a certain 'responsibility' as far as our brother
> > > (or cousin) nations are concerned?
> > >
> > > Of course they should be monolingually Finnic... Otherwise they band
> > > up with the local Russians. Are there any Karelians, Komi, Mordvinians
> > > or Mari out there who want to be rescued?
> > >
> > > Not that the recent import of Ingrians has been very successful,
> > > AFAIK. (Or should that be HIFK?)
> >
> > Firstly, Ingerians have been a catastrophe (my wife happens to be a social
> > worker).
>
> How can you say such a thing? I hope Inger isn't reading this!
>
> > Secondly, nobody has to be monoligualically Finnish. The point is to be
> > proud of "Finnishess". That's a hard task and the racism or ethocentrity
> > doesn't help.
This is an amazing statement. How does one equate being an ethnic Finn
without participating in Finnish "ethnocentricity"? Sound like
socialist crap-talk to me.
>
> Yeah, it's not easy to be proud without looking down at others.
Fine. Then look down at others.
Or would you rather everyone looked up to certain elite ethnicities?
> > Thirdly, if you were born in Turku it can't be HIFK.
>
> I was born in Helsinki*, but we used to live in what was once Turuntie
> (today Mannerheimintie), only one block from where HIFK is playing. But of
> course you're right, in my heart I'm a Civis Aboensis, so I should have
> written ÅIFK (do they still exist?).
>
> > PS I went for a walk with my 11 year-old kid who studies at a school where
> > all studying will be in English at the end of the school, after three
> > years, that is. We spoke English while walking, just for fun - or should I
> > say pidgin English. Anyway, sometime along the line I changed back to
> > Finnish and my kid said: "Pheew, aren't we speaking English anymore. What
> > a relief."
>
> Two kids of a friend of mine have been going to such a school for several
> years now (they are 12 and 14), but they still don't like to speak English
> outside the school - not even to people who don't understand Finnish. Is it
> our Finnish shyness, or are the teachers unable to make the kids comfortable
> with a foreign language?
>
> John
Whatever it is, it sounds stupid. Finnish children should be taught
Finnish first - and any foreign language as an elective.
> *) Don't draw any conclusions from this regrettable fact. Like my father
> used to say: 'Jesus was born in a stable, but he still wasn't a horse!'
Your father also says stupid things. It must run in your blasphemous
family.
Regards,
Uno Hu
Eugene Holman
lora...@cs.com (Uno Hu) wrote:
> "J. Anderson" <ar...@iname.com> wrote in message
news:<bjvf0i$lvr$1...@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi>...
<deletions>
>
> Whatever it is, it sounds stupid. Finnish children should be taught
> Finnish first - and any foreign language as an elective.
Swedish is not a foreign language in Finland, but rather the second
official language. Many jobs in Finland, such as my own, require a command
of both official languages. Although I work in an English department, my
students have the right to discuss their work with me and answer
examination questions in their native language, be it Finnish or Swedish.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Eryk
> Swedish is not a foreign language in Finland, but rather the second
> official language.
An issue the USA itself may have to grapple with in a generation or two in
respect of Spanish if things continue as they are......
Eryk
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 19/08/2003
pas de deux
news:bk152h$jr4$1...@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi...
> Finnish shyness is legendary.
> We're even worse than the Swedes, who call their shyness 'reticence'.
> Perhaps it has to do with our small populations inhabiting vast countries.
> The physical distance has created a need for emotional distance as well?
Australians (Anglos) will chose a picnic table in the park as far away from
everyone else as they can. Chinese Australians will come to the table right
next to you although there are tables further away empty.
> The 'elevator syndrome' (as I call it) is a daily reminder of this
shyness.
> When I leave my apartment, push the elevator knob and stand in the hallway
> waiting for the lift, one of my neighbours may be on his/her way out also.
> (S)He opens the door to go out, spots me standing there and quickly closes
> the door, waiting for me to disappear first so as to avoid having to share
> the lift (which is big enough for 10 people) with me. And the reason is
not
> any lack in my personal hygiene. They simply don't want to communicate,
not
> even to just say the little word 'hei' that we use to greet each other
Lithuanians will size each other up, including eye contact, and only speak
if they think the other person is:
1) sober
2) worth talking to (ie intelligent or interesting — this is not a class
thing as in ENgland)
Gintautas Kaminskas
pas de deux
you're so smart — why ain't you rich?"
On this basis, they see languages other than English as 'useless' unless
they earn you $$$$$.
In the case of the average person pursuing a language for
cultural/intellectual reasons, $$$$ is not the goal, but therefore, to the
average Yank, it's "a waste of time".
GK
*********************88
"Eryk" <n...@way.com> wrote in message
news:rrX8b.639$ni5...@newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net...
henry alminas
> Yankees firmly believe in the maxim (or what they think is a maxim): "If
>
> On this basis, they see languages other than English as 'useless' unless
> they earn you $$$$$.
>
> In the case of the average person pursuing a language for
> cultural/intellectual reasons, $$$$ is not the goal, but therefore, to
the
> average Yank, it's "a waste of time".
>
> GK
>
Hey - that is the line of your pinkoid rat-pack leader.
Now keep things straight here.
Best - - Henry