Jewish question
Evaldas Zvinys
: Secondly, Estonia was not a country with an anti-Semitic tradition, as
was
: unfortunately the case in Lithuania, or with enough Jews for it to be
: possible to artificially whip up anti-Semitism, as was the case in
Latvia.
Since this is a very painful topic to a lot of Lithuanians, it would be
nice if we could set the record straight - wrong accusations lead to wrong
doings.
In my opinion tradition is something that lasts more than two or three
years in such a turmoil as was WWII. To me the fact that nazis were able
to find a few dozen people who possibly participated in the holocaust is
important, but it does not prove that this is the tradition typical for
the whole country and its people for a significant amount of time.I do not
have much time to search for exact quotes (I am sure you will find
something on www.online.lt), but the real tradition is probably something
different from what Mr. Holman perceives.
Jews settled in Lithunia in middle ages, both after
invitation of the grand duke Vytautas, and pogroms in the Western Europe.
The numbers are quite big, for example, my city, Telsiai, had about 45% of
its population jewish in the interwar period (1920-1940). Same holds true
for some of other cities. They had pretty much the same bussiness as all
over Europe - small shops and money lending, with relatively small
involvement in agriculture. Up to 20th century, jews had a relatively
peacefull life with _one or zero_ (- sorry I do not remember exactly)
pogroms which is a very small number if compared to the rest of Europe.
You could see sinagogues and hear yiddish in many cities, and the smart
jew shoppkeeper even became a part of the folklore (a line from song of my
grandfather's comes to mind - "jankeliukas roda dave ..." jankeliukas -
being positive diminutive of Jankel - typical jewish name).
However, I should admit, that in the interwar period, jews did not
participate in the political life of the country (where did they in
Europe?), and their activity was limited to bussiness. This has several
explanations, one of them being that the republic was quite new, there was
no political tradition nor knowledge how to run things correctly. Also,
nationalis sentiment was strong. Besides from that, I am not aware of any
anti-jewish activity (like the pamphlets that the jews must be
exterminated or are worse or something of that sort) in Lithuania in that
period. Recently I even read about a proffessor of KTU (Kaunas
Technological University), whose family moved to Lithuania in the 30s
from France (he's a jew, otherwise I would not mention it).
The 40s is a quite different story and a rather painful one. After
Hitler-Stalin pact, Russians came over in 1940. Proven statistics shows
that in the communist organisations percentage chunk of jews was larger
than the percentage of jews (take famous Greifenberger) in the overall
populations, and therefore more jews got promoted as the Russians came.
Again, this is pretty much universal trend, the estonian participant of
this thread mentioned it, also similar things were in Russia. However in
general soviets did not make much discrimination, they killed jews and
lithuanians alike e.g. in Rainiai slaughter (1940). Then the nazis came
and the people who knew how to dance to their music got promoted. They did
what they did, and it is very shameful, for one that a lot of people were
killed, and that a unique community with its culture was exterminated.
However, one should note that not only jews suffered from holocaust.
Example - Pirciupis village where all the people in the village were
herded into one barn and burned to the ground. Also, one does not need
the whole Lithuania to help run a concentration camp, couple of dozen of
local people is enough. However, again, many Lithuanians saved jews - and
that's frequently is forgotten by S. Wiesenthal center. Famous writer,
Icchokas Meras, who now is in Israel, but who still writes in a very good
Lithuanian (by that I mean that his feel of language is better than of a
mediocre writer). The story might continue, to add the personal flavor I
can say that my wife's grandmothers family also saved a jewish girl, by
risking their lives.I am not saying that people who participated in jewish
holocaust should not pay for it or that it should be forgotten. I am just
saying that this is our history and we should know it.
Therefore, I do not support a very clear assertion by Mr. Holman that
Lithuania has an established anti-jew tradition. Nowadays, Jews are part
of Lithuanian community although a very small one. I am quite sure that
the member of Parlament Emanuelis Zingeris was elected not only by Jews
but by other nationality voters in Kaunas district.
To me it is very sad to see the actions of S.Wiesenthal center. In many
cases, they just see the black and white, and make a very far reaching
accusations. The saddess of that is that in many cases this reminds
accusations of the "Nation of Islam" leader Farrakhan, whos talks
frequently sound like that: white people hurt black people by making them
slaves, now even though the situation is completely different (e.g.
affirmative action), they still should be paying for this, and we shoud
retaliate.
Best regards,
Evaldas
Jerzy Pankiewicz
A friend of mine was living in Lithuania till about 1945.
She says that there was no antisemitism before the war.
When Soviets came Lithuanians were sceptical,
Jews were visible during Soviet manifestations,
e.g. in Kaunas. Some Soviet Jews came probably
with NKVD and committed crimes.
After the German invasion there was a big pogrom
in Kaunas, some Jews were burned. Lithuanian
soldiers ("Ponary rifle men") delivered Jews
(and Poles) to Ponary. (I don't know who
murdered in Ponary - Germans?). More than 50 000
of Jews were murdered in Ponary. Lithuanian
police Sauguma worked for Germans. Some Lithuanians
took part in executions of local Jews. They robbed
Jewish gold. The neighbour of my friend was
warm-hearted, he offered her Jewish gold for her tooth.
Jerzy Pankiewicz
Eugene Holman
Zvinys) wrote:
> Eugene Holman (hol...@elo.helsinki.fi) wrote:
> : Secondly, Estonia was not a country with an anti-Semitic tradition, as
> was
> : unfortunately the case in Lithuania, or with enough Jews for it to be
> : possible to artificially whip up anti-Semitism, as was the case in
> Latvia.
>
>
> Since this is a very painful topic to a lot of Lithuanians, it would be
> nice if we could set the record straight - wrong accusations lead to wrong
> doings.
I don't have a reference library handy right now, so I can't elaborate on
the statement I made last week. Certainly, I did not mean to imply that
the Lithuanian nation as a whole is anti-Semitic. I am well aware of the
role that the Litvaks played in the development of eastern-European Jewish
culture, and in the importance of Vilnius and Kaunas as its historical
centers.
>
> In my opinion tradition is something that lasts more than two or three
> years in such a turmoil as was WWII. To me the fact that nazis were able
> to find a few dozen people who possibly participated in the holocaust is
> important, but it does not prove that this is the tradition typical for
> the whole country and its people for a significant amount of time.I do not
> have much time to search for exact quotes (I am sure you will find
> something on www.online.lt), but the real tradition is probably something
> different from what Mr. Holman perceives.
Unlike Estonia and Latvia, where Jews were marginal and society was more
secular than religious, Lithuania, like Poland, is a society in which the
Catholic church played an important role right up until the war. The
Catholic church has a long history of antipathy towards Jews, and this
antipathy plays an important part in the pre-industrial rural culture to
which most adult Lithuanians traced their roots as late as the early
1940s. I make no claims to being well-versed in this rural culture, but
from what I have read about it, it contains numerous anti-Semitic
elements. Phrases such as 'He lies like a Jew,' 'He cheats like a Jew,'
are, as far as I know, so much a part of the traditional world view that
was built into the phraseology of rural Lithuanian dialects that people
don't even think twice about what they are saying when they use them.
During the Holocaust more than 150,000 Lithuanian Jews were killed. I have
seen photographs of Nazi soldiers looking on passively as people who
appear to be local civilians kick and shoot Jews on the streets of Kaunas
and Vilnius. I've followed some of the stories that continue to come from
Lithuania about local police chiefs and others who willingly collaborated
in the slaughter of Jews during the Nazi occupation. I've visited the
synagogue at Vilnius and seen of the material they have on display there
about the vandalism and terror that accompanied the emptying of the Jewish
ghetto in that city. Unlike the situation in Estonia and, to a lesser
extent, Latvia, where the Jews were gotten rid of in the dead of night in
hyper-sanitary orderly fashion with little if any publicity, the
destruction of Lithuania's Jews involved considerably more than a 'few
dozen people' who were willing to collaborate openly with the Nazis not
only in killing but also in humiliating Jews.
Once again, I want to emphasize that I understand the degree to which the
Nazis used the Jews as scapegoats for communism and numerous other
misfortunes, so I understand that some of the energy which allowed 150,000
Jews to be killed on Lithuanian soil was the product of a well
orchestrated propaganda campaign. Still, I think that the seeds of Nazi
propaganda fell on much more fertile soil in Lithuania, where there
traditionally had been many more opportunities for Jewish-non-Jewish
interaction, and which had a religion which has a history of historical
intolerance towards Jews, than we find in the two more secular Baltic
countries to the north where Jews were smaller and more urbanized
minorities.
> However, I should admit, that in the interwar period, jews did not
> participate in the political life of the country (where did they in
> Europe?),
France had a Jewish prime minister, Léon Blum (1872-1950), in 1936-37, and
then again briefly in 1938. Jewish minority rights, including the right to
a political voice, were protected in Estonia by legislation pertaining to
the rights of ethnic minorities. Secular Jews were well represented in the
Soviuet government as well.
Well, let's say that I've thrown the ball into your court, I am very
interested to hear your views about the role-Semitism in Lithuanian
culture. Certainly the well-documented pogrom-like treatment of Jews on
the streets of Kaunas and Vilnius during WW II compared to the silence
with which Jews were killed in Latvia and Estonia, would seem to indicate
the existence of a different cultural dynamic towards Jews in Lithuania,
one which has more links to the culture of Poland, than what we see in
Latvia and Estonia.
With best regards,
Eugene Holman
David McDuff
wrote:
>To me it is very sad to see the actions of S.Wiesenthal center. In many
>cases, they just see the black and white, and make a very far reaching
>accusations.
While I sympathise to some extent with what you are saying, to be
fair to the Simon Wiesenthal Centre, it does appear to do its best to
be even-handed in the apportioning of blame for anti-Semitism, both
past and present. For example, if one visits the Centre's web site,
one finds in the current issue of 'Response Magazine' information
about a survey of anti-Semitic publications widely available in the
Russian Federation:
http://www.wiesenthal.com/response/v19n1russia.html
Of Lithuania, however, there is no mention in the magazine at all.
Best regards,
David McDuff
Jerzy Pankiewicz
: 1940s. I make no claims to being well-versed in this rural culture, but
: from what I have read about it, it contains numerous anti-Semitic
: elements. Phrases such as 'He lies like a Jew,' 'He cheats like a Jew,'
: are, as far as I know, so much a part of the traditional world view that
: was built into the phraseology of rural Lithuanian dialects that people
: don't even think twice about what they are saying when they use them.
some poets? What were Jewish sayings about peasants?
: the rights of ethnic minorities. Secular Jews were well represented in the
: Soviuet government as well.
Are you joking?
Jerzy Pankiewicz
Jerzy Pankiewicz
Holocaust was devised and executed by antisemitic rural Roman-Catholics
of Eastern Europe rather than by secularised and urbanised Germans.
Jerzy Pankiewicz
Eugene Holman
panki...@sun1000.pwr.wroc.pl (Jerzy Pankiewicz) wrote:
Come on, Jerzy, that's not what I said at all.
I think I made it quite clear in my posting that the Germans exploited
anti-Semitic antipathies which were part of certain eastern European
peasant traditions in their implementation of the Holocaust against Jews.
The role played by the Catholic Establishment and Pope Pius XII in
particular in protesting ( see:
http://www.catholicleague.org/Pius%20XII%20and%20the%20Holocaust/piusxii.htm)
or turning a blind eye to many Holocaust atrocities (see:
http://archiv.berliner-morgenpost.de/bin/bm/e?u=/bm/archiv1998/980401/politik/story00.html)
remains controversial. Correspondence in captured Nazi documents also
makes it clear that the Nazis were aware and made systematic use of
traditional anti-Semitic antipathies in certain parts of occupied Eastern
Europe to incite 'spontaneous' local actions against Jewish populations.
Once again, my 'theory' is that in certain parts of Nazi-occupied Europe,
notably Poland, Lithuania, (and parts of Ukraine) it was possible to
channel traditional anti-Semitic traditions and feelings originating in a
rural, church-centered world-view, into actions against Jews which were
public, humiliating, and marked by the willing and visible participation
of certain locals. This makes the course of the Nazi inspired and
archestrated Holocaust in Poland and Lithuania qualitatively different
from its course in more secular Latvia and Estonia with respect to both
the degree of public visibility of, and the number and type of local
participants in Nazi-instigated atrocities perpetuated against local
Jewish populations.
halm...@msn.com
hol...@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote:
> In article <6nu8om$8v1$1...@hecate.umd.edu>, gin...@Glue.umd.edu (Evaldas
> Zvinys) wrote:
Well, here you go again Holman. It is curious to note that you are rather
rabidly anti-Catholic. That is fine, I believe the Catholic church, overall,
has been a negative influence in the northern part of Europe. But then, I
tend to be anti-church in general. Living in the US I would say that some
of the Protestant churches are a hell of a lot worse. Point two - I am so
happy to see that you use that good old Ameican term "peasant" meant for
most east Europeans - as in "the peasants burned the fair maiden ( or jew
or whatever) at the stake etc. etc. Just what is a peasant - at what point
does he become a plain old farmer? Are farmers mor likely to mistreat jews
than other occupations? Anyway, moving right along - the photographs. You
saw some photographs of what appeared to be civilians etc. etc. What was
the credit on the photogrphs? The Wehrmach files? The SS files? That just
reminds me of an article in some goofy US magazine (probably your favorite
time) dealing with east European fascism. One of the more hilarious
proofs they included was a photograph of (yes your favorite Lithuanian
civilians - perhaps even the same ones?) a mass of people wildly cheering
a military column marching by. The caption read: "Lithuanians warmly
welcoming contingents of the German army in Memel (Klaipeda).... Now this
was 1939 when Lithuania was still independent and was forced to cede
Klaipeda to Germany. Do you really think that the Lithuanians would be
cheering - even peasant Lithuanians - or is it more likely that these were
the resident Volksdeutsche? Think about it Holman!
Best - - Henry
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Simcha Streltsov
: this thread mentioned it, also similar things were in Russia. However in
: general soviets did not make much discrimination, they killed jews and
: lithuanians alike e.g. in Rainiai slaughter (1940). Then the nazis came
: and the people who knew how to dance to their music got promoted. They did
: what they did, and it is very shameful, for one that a lot of people were
: killed, and that a unique community with its culture was exterminated.
actually, I recall reading memoirs that said that some of the same people
who served in Soviet militia in 1940, immediately became members of Nazi police.
: local people is enough. However, again, many Lithuanians saved jews - and
: that's frequently is forgotten by S. Wiesenthal center. Famous writer,
while we are on the topic, note that Wiesenthal center is _not_ associated with
Mr Wiesanthal. AFAIR, the latter recently disagreed with an anti-Swiss
report of the center.
: Icchokas Meras, who now is in Israel, but who still writes in a very good
: Lithuanian (by that I mean that his feel of language is better than of a
look also at Grigorii Kanovich - who also lives now in Israel - he writes
in Russian, and has a lot on Jewish-Lithunian life - I note that his books
were always available in Lithunian libraries (Druskininkai) during Soviet
times - probably the only openly pro-Jewish author I ever saw in Soviet
libraries
: Therefore, I do not support a very clear assertion by Mr. Holman that
: Lithuania has an established anti-jew tradition. Nowadays, Jews are part
in my experience, there always was anti-Russian sentiment in almost all
Lithuanian circles - some folks asociated [Russian-speaking] Jews with
Russians and did not like us, other knew history better - as one
Lithuanian told me "we dont like Russians, you dont like Russians, we
are friends" (-;
--
Simcha Streltsov disclaimer, as requested by Mo-he S-rr
simc...@juno.com all punctuation marks in this article
http://cad.bu.edu/go/simon are equivalent to (-:
Simcha Streltsov
: When Soviets came Lithuanians were sceptical,
: Jews were visible during Soviet manifestations,
: e.g. in Kaunas. Some Soviet Jews came probably
: with NKVD and committed crimes.
Indeed, Soviets were sending groups of Jewish intellectuals
for specific purpose of propaganda to Polish/Lithuanian
Jews - the latter often noticed that words about workers paradise
did not fit their hungry looks. Some of those intellectuals
actually delivered truthful information in private
Simcha Streltsov
: During the Holocaust more than 150,000 Lithuanian Jews were killed. I have
: seen photographs of Nazi soldiers looking on passively as people who
: appear to be local civilians kick and shoot Jews on the streets of Kaunas
: and Vilnius. I've followed some of the stories that continue to come from
did you wonder - who made the photos? various Jewish memoirs describe, for example,
how Germans brought Polish thugs to Jewish stores and let them
burn and rob the stores - the photos (without German soldiers in the
background) showed - allegedly - Polish-Jewish relations ....
: Well, let's say that I've thrown the ball into your court, I am very
: interested to hear your views about the role-Semitism in Lithuanian
: culture. Certainly the well-documented pogrom-like treatment of Jews on
R Berl Wein, for example, quotes his mother - when she was a little girl
she learned a [Jewish] blessing said when one sees a rainbow from ...
her Lithunian baby-sitter! - i.e. in many cities with large Jewish
population, Lithuanians wer familiar and at ease with Jewish traditions
Evaldas Zvinys
: I don't have a reference library handy right now, so I can't elaborate on
: the statement I made last week. Certainly, I did not mean to imply that
: the Lithuanian nation as a whole is anti-Semitic. I am well aware of the
: role that the Litvaks played in the development of eastern-European Jewish
: culture, and in the importance of Vilnius and Kaunas as its historical
: centers.
Last week you have wrote that Lithuania as a country has an
anti-semitic tradition. My argument doubted whether
2-3 years or a multi-century common history is a tradition.
: I make no claims to being well-versed in this rural culture,but
: from what I have read about it, it contains numerous anti-Semitic
: elements. Phrases such as 'He lies like a Jew,' 'He cheats like a Jew,'
: are, as far as I know, so much a part of the traditional world view that
: was built into the phraseology of rural Lithuanian dialects that people
: don't even think twice about what they are saying when they use them.
I doubt that what you say here applies to the culture as a whole.
On what did you base what you said?
However, the saying that "he cheats like a Jew" could have been
related to small shop bussiness or money lending with high interest,
and there were some discontent people. At that time with very
high certainty jew = shopkeeper, therefore it could have been
used as a synonym for a tight/high interest asking money lender.
Also, in Lithuanian "he cheats like a Jew" has slightly different
feel that in English "Suktas kaip zydas" (this translation to me sounds
right) - "suktas" indicating
that the person is shrewd and one needs to be careful when dealing
with him. If you want to have meaning "cheats like a Jew" would
translate as "sukciauja kaip zydas", but that does not sound right.
: Well, let's say that I've thrown the ball into your court, I am very
: interested to hear your views about the role-Semitism in Lithuanian
: culture. Certainly the well-documented pogrom-like treatment of Jews on
: the streets of Kaunas and Vilnius during WW II compared to the silence
: with which Jews were killed in Latvia and Estonia, would seem to indicate
: the existence of a different cultural dynamic towards Jews in Lithuania,
: one which has more links to the culture of Poland, than what we see in
: Latvia and Estonia.
As for Jews in Latvia and Estonia - it is very easy to say that
the behavior towards Jews was better. But the number of Jews there
was significantly smaller! How do you know how it wold have been if
at the time when the nazis came there were high percentage of Jews,
be it a catholic or protestant coutry, and the process was encouraged,
probably the degree of encouragement being proportional to the number of
Jews?
: With best regards,
: Eugene Holman
Summa sumarum:
Again, Eugene, I was arguing and was somewhat surprised by the fact that
tradition is 2-3 years, and not several centuries of co-existence.
My opinion on the Jewish holocaust also was stated: it is very shameful
and should not be forgotten.
As for Lihuanian rural culture and its relation to Jews, I suspect that
you are too much influenced by U.Sinclair's "The Jungle", which represents
workers life in the US at the end of 19th-beginnin of 20th century.
Life in the US is represented correctly, but author makes obvious
mistakes relatd to Lihuanian language (e.g. Jurgis found a Belorussan and
they talked the whole night in their "mother tongue"), also it is seen
that the life in Russian Lithuania is shown based on general sterotypes.
In the pre-WWII Lithuania, however, many things were different -
the country was free, industry was being developed in bigger cities
Kaunas, Siauliai, Klaipeda (up to 1936, when Germans took it),
many people got their education abroad and returned (e.g. famous
physicist Jucys - his ideas of atom physics are still used, or
painter Galdikas).
To me a notable example is S.Darius - his family left for the US
I think in 1912, when he was a kid. However, at 18, he returned and
served in Lihuanian army. Later on, he decided to make
a flight accross the Atlantic, returned to the US, collected and earned
money and low and behold -in 1933 with his friend they have corossed it!
The culture was influenced by philosophers Salkauskis and Vydunas,
the latter lived part of his life in East Prussia.
I feel that I am straying aside, so to make a long story short
it needs to be noted that there were all kinds of people in the
society. Moreover, as I indicated, some Jews even moved to Lithuania -
would anybody move to a country where they are scorned at?
Unfortunately, today it is almost impossible to understand how the Jews
felt in that society - one person can say that the Jews were scorned at,
another two would say that this is not the case - what does that prove?
One needs to look for more objective trends, and these trends are
related to movement of Jews from one place to another and the development
of their culture.
The ball is back in your court, Eugene, since I am not avare of any big
scale movement of Jews out of Lithuania prior to WWII.
Moreover, I am avare of Jewish culture development both in Kaunas and
Vilnius. Also, apart from your WWII examples and "common rural language"
you did not prove to me that anti-semitism was a tradition in Lithuania.
Best regards,
Evaldas
Jerzy Pankiewicz
: a military column marching by. The caption read: "Lithuanians warmly
: welcoming contingents of the German army in Memel (Klaipeda).... Now this
I think that were Volksdeutsche, who consisted majority in Memel.
Jerzy Pankiewicz
Jerzy Pankiewicz
: I think I made it quite clear in my posting that the Germans exploited
: anti-Semitic antipathies which were part of certain eastern European
1. Germans exploited Jews to keep order in ghettos
and deliver groups of Jews for death.
2. Germans exploited local authorities and local
police everywhere. Compare the situation in Netherlands
and in Lithuania.
3. I have discussed the problem with a woman who
was in Latvia in 1941. Some Jews were killed
in the strreets of Riga. They worked probably
for NKVD but a mob isn't precise.
: The role played by the Catholic Establishment and Pope Pius XII in
: particular in protesting ( see:
: http://www.catholicleague.org/Pius%20XII%20and%20the%20Holocaust/piusxii.htm)
There are documents about Pius XII.
: traditional anti-Semitic antipathies in certain parts of occupied Eastern
: Europe to incite 'spontaneous' local actions against Jewish populations.
So spontaneous or not?
: from its course in more secular Latvia and Estonia with respect to both
: the degree of public visibility of, and the number and type of local
: participants in Nazi-instigated atrocities perpetuated against local
: Jewish populations.
You have forgotten Danish Jews. They were transported to Sweden.
Poles failed to transport their 3 milions to Sweden.
Those antisemitic Poles.
Jerzy Pankiewicz
Jerzy Pankiewicz
: Moreover, I am avare of Jewish culture development both in Kaunas and
Vilnius Jews had little contacts with ethnic Lithuanians.
Jerzy Pankiewicz
Eugene Holman
> In article <holman-0807...@f24-134-4.pc.helsinki.fi>,
> hol...@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote:
> > In article <6nu8om$8v1$1...@hecate.umd.edu>, gin...@Glue.umd.edu (Evaldas
> > Zvinys) wrote:
> big snip --
>
> Well, here you go again Holman. It is curious to note that you are rather
> rabidly anti-Catholic. That is fine, I believe the Catholic church, overall,
> has been a negative influence in the northern part of Europe.
Anti-Catholic? No. The Catholic Church propagates a different world view
than the Protestant churches do, one that is more structured and contains
more historical baggage. Even if Martin Luther himself was an extreme
anti-Semite, I don't think most people would contest the claim that
anti-Semitism has historically been more of a problem in the Catholic than
in the Protestant parts of Europe. Hitler himself was the product of a
Catholic environment (Austria, Bavaria). European Protestantism tends to be
rather secular; it is thus sharply opposed to Catholicism, which still
retains strong elements of mysticism and metaphysics.
> But then, I
> tend to be anti-church in general.
So do I. But the people who orchestrated and implemented the Holocaust were
born into environments in which the church, particularly the church in its
traditonal, rural, dogmatic form, still played a central role. Some of
them, like Hitler and his closest associates, broke with the church, but
this was after they had reached adulthood. The whole crew of them was
raised in an environment in which the church, its dogmas, and its way of
spreading information were central factors.
> Living in the US I would say that some
> of the Protestant churches are a hell of a lot worse.
No argument there.
> Point two - I am so
> happy to see that you use that good old Ameican term "peasant" meant for
> most east Europeans - as in "the peasants burned the fair maiden ( or jew
> or whatever) at the stake etc. etc. Just what is a peasant - at what point
> does he become a plain old farmer? Are farmers mor likely to mistreat jews
> than other occupations?
I consider farming to be a profession, but peasantry to be a way of life.
During the 1930s a good proportion of the rural population of eastern
Europe was still peasants. More illiterate than literate, a lifestyle
governed more by tradition, stability, superstition, and rumor, and largely
insulated from the rapid and bewildering changes that were taking place in
the cities.
> Anyway, moving right along - the photographs. You
> saw some photographs of what appeared to be civilians etc. etc. What was
> the credit on the photogrphs? The Wehrmach files? The SS files?
The photograph that I have in mind is in Goldhagen's 'Hitler's Willing
Executioners'. I don't have my copy at hand right now, but I will supply
the information.
> That just
> reminds me of an article in some goofy US magazine (probably your favorite
> time) dealing with east European fascism. One of the more hilarious
> proofs they included was a photograph of (yes your favorite Lithuanian
> civilians - perhaps even the same ones?) a mass of people wildly cheering
> a military column marching by. The caption read: "Lithuanians warmly
> welcoming contingents of the German army in Memel (Klaipeda).... Now this
> was 1939 when Lithuania was still independent and was forced to cede
> Klaipeda to Germany. Do you really think that the Lithuanians would be
> cheering - even peasant Lithuanians - or is it more likely that these were
> the resident Volksdeutsche? Think about it Holman!
*Time* is not my favorite magazine, even if they do have some good articles
and have produced some excellent CD-ROMs which are useful for reviewing the
history of the past 70 years.
The history of the Jewish population in Kaunas is extremely well documented
due to the secret photographs taken by ghetto inhabitant George Kadish
(http://www.onlineathens.com/1997/120597/1205.a3ghetto.html;
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/museums/notebook/burchard/kovno11
28.htm),
You might also take a look at the material at:
http://www.jewishgen.org/ShtetLinks/shkudvil/shkudvil.html
and follow the links (particularly
http://www.jewishgen.org/ShtetLinks/shkudvil/victims1.html) there to see at
least some support and documentation of the manner in which Jews were
treated in Lithuania in 1941.
Finally, you might consider the issues in the trial United States vs.
Vytautas Gecas (http://www.law.emory.edu/11circuit/apr95/93-3291.man.html)
(The material includes a link to the beautiful map of the Baltics in 1882
at: http://feefhs.org/maps/ruse/baltics.jpg)
Best regards.
Eugene Holman
halm...@msn.com
hol...@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote:
> In article <6o0r5v$ds1$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, halm...@msn.com wrote:
>
> > In article <holman-0807...@f24-134-4.pc.helsinki.fi>,
> > hol...@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote:
> >
> > Well, here you go again Holman. It is curious to note that you are rather
> > rabidly anti-Catholic. That is fine, I believe the Catholic church,
overall,
> > has been a negative influence in the northern part of Europe.
>
> Anti-Catholic? No. The Catholic Church propagates a different world view
> than the Protestant churches do, one that is more structured and contains
> more historical baggage. Even if Martin Luther himself was an extreme
> anti-Semite, I don't think most people would contest the claim that
> anti-Semitism has historically been more of a problem in the Catholic than
> in the Protestant parts of Europe. Hitler himself was the product of a
> Catholic environment (Austria, Bavaria). European Protestantism tends to be
> rather secular; it is thus sharply opposed to Catholicism, which still
> retains strong elements of mysticism and metaphysics.
Hmmm...More historical baggage Holman? Of course - it existed a bit longer
than the Protestant churches - indeed, the various Protestant churches split
off the Catholic church. Some for reasons other than noble. More
structured? Do you mean displaying a greater internal logic? Catholic -
antisemitic connection? The greatest antisemitic actions (aside from modern
Germany - and what is it Protestant or Catholic?) ocurred when there was no
Protestant church. So whom do we credit them to? Your statement beyond
"European Protestantism.." seems like pure academic garble to me. Perhaps
you could translate. Finally let me just point one thing out. The Catholic
church came out against the institution of slavery substantially befor the
Protestant churches did. I still say, the Christian church never did belong
in Europe - Protestant or Catholic. I strongly suspect that the western
world would be substantially ahead in science and humanitarianism had this
mid-Eastern religion never moved across the Mediterranean.
>
> > But then, I
> > tend to be anti-church in general.
>
> So do I. But the people who orchestrated and implemented the Holocaust were
> born into environments in which the church, particularly the church in its
> traditonal, rural, dogmatic form, still played a central role. Some of
> them, like Hitler and his closest associates, broke with the church, but
> this was after they had reached adulthood. The whole crew of them was
> raised in an environment in which the church, its dogmas, and its way of
> spreading information were central factors.
You are really forcing things here Holman. Psychohistory!!
>
> > Living in the US I would say that some
> > of the Protestant churches are a hell of a lot worse.
>
> No argument there.
>
> > Point two - I am so
> > happy to see that you use that good old Ameican term "peasant" meant for
> > most east Europeans - as in "the peasants burned the fair maiden ( or jew
> > or whatever) at the stake etc. etc. Just what is a peasant - at what point
> > does he become a plain old farmer? Are farmers mor likely to mistreat jews
> > than other occupations?
>
> I consider farming to be a profession, but peasantry to be a way of life.
> During the 1930s a good proportion of the rural population of eastern
> Europe was still peasants. More illiterate than literate, a lifestyle
> governed more by tradition, stability, superstition, and rumor, and largely
> insulated from the rapid and bewildering changes that were taking place in
> the cities.
Hmm - then you might say that currently there is a strong "peasant" movement
throughout the US. People are looking to reestablish tradition, stability,
your superstition - their faith, insulation from the rapidly developing
social problems in the large cities, and are happy to listen to rumor
(internet) rather than the pc dogma coming out of the assorted established
networks.
>
> > Anyway, moving right along - the photographs. You
> > saw some photographs of what appeared to be civilians etc. etc. What was
> > the credit on the photogrphs? The Wehrmach files? The SS files?
>
> The photograph that I have in mind is in Goldhagen's 'Hitler's Willing
> Executioners'. I don't have my copy at hand right now, but I will supply
> the information.
I believe that the Goldhagen book is having subtantial problems being
taken seriously by respected historians - even Jewish ones.
>
> > That just
> > reminds me of an article in some goofy US magazine (probably your favorite
> > time) dealing with east European fascism. One of the more hilarious
> > proofs they included was a photograph of (yes your favorite Lithuanian
> > civilians - perhaps even the same ones?) a mass of people wildly cheering
> > a military column marching by. The caption read: "Lithuanians warmly
> > welcoming contingents of the German army in Memel (Klaipeda).... Now this
> > was 1939 when Lithuania was still independent and was forced to cede
> > Klaipeda to Germany. Do you really think that the Lithuanians would be
> > cheering - even peasant Lithuanians - or is it more likely that these were
> > the resident Volksdeutsche? Think about it Holman!
>
> *Time* is not my favorite magazine, even if they do have some good articles
> and have produced some excellent CD-ROMs which are useful for reviewing the
> history of the past 70 years.
Well, no answer as to the source of the photographs. By the way,
photographs of the happy Lithuanians in Klaipeda were kindly provided by
a German archive. Do you think they just might have an interest to
distract attention from the German activities?
> The history of the Jewish population in Kaunas is extremely well documented
> due to the secret photographs taken by ghetto inhabitant George Kadish
> (http://www.onlineathens.com/1997/120597/1205.a3ghetto.html;
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/museums/notebook/burchard/kovno11
> 28.htm),
> You might also take a look at the material at:
> http://www.jewishgen.org/ShtetLinks/shkudvil/shkudvil.html
>
> and follow the links (particularly
> http://www.jewishgen.org/ShtetLinks/shkudvil/victims1.html) there to see at
> least some support and documentation of the manner in which Jews were
> treated in Lithuania in 1941.
>
> Finally, you might consider the issues in the trial United States vs.
> Vytautas Gecas (http://www.law.emory.edu/11circuit/apr95/93-3291.man.html)
I am not familiar with this case. I do find some of the US evidence to be
very suspect however. Look at the case of Demjanuk (sp?). How much
KGB manufactured documentation was used in this case?
>
(The material includes a link to the beautiful map of the Baltics in 1882
> at: http://feefhs.org/maps/ruse/baltics.jpg)
> Best regards.
> Eugene Holman
Vladimir Svetlov
> in my experience, there always was anti-Russian sentiment in almost all
> Lithuanian circles - some folks asociated [Russian-speaking] Jews with
> Russians and did not like us
I sorta knew it would come to that - anti-semitism as misplaced
russophobia... Of course, if not for well deserved anti-Russian sentiment
and some astigmatic Lithuaninas, there would be no anti-semitism among the
Balts. So, in order to avert any future confusion like this one here it
comes again, back by popular demand
THE COMPLETE IDIOT'S GUIDE TO LOWER RACES, trans. from Aryan
RUSSIANS - relatively large human-like mammals, pale in hue, may even
reach the size of a real Lithianian. No discernable forehead, squinted
Tartar eyes and big clumsy hands add to the above portrait of the average
Russian. Prefers keeping in hordes, which are regularly being pushed out of
Siberian taiga by something even more disgusting than Russians themselves
(probably the savage dog-headed wood elves), outward in the direction of
Europe. Thus every Lithuanian has to learn how to identify these animals in
the wild and to know how to deal with migrating Russians en route.
It was said that they can be as large as humans, but never quite so tall as
their backs are always bent due to their inherent affection to slavery.
Feed them on your own risk - as long as you feed the Russians they'll stay
around and will disturb the peace and beauty of any imaginable local
(except in Hell!). When fed, Russians fall asleep immediately, unless
additionally intoxicated by alcohol - in the latter case they become
restless and start shouting their songs that make the fog horn sound
musical. Don't try to help Russians out of your area by giving them
directions - they have no understanding of geography and only get confused
by words like "right" and "left". In some areas giving Russians the wrong
directions has become a local tradition and a source of endless (albeit
somewhat rustic) amusement. As you've guessed, Russians can sometimes mimic
the human speech, but have no real understanding of it. Their own
communication system is no more pleasant to a refined listener than the
sound of a chainsaw cutting through a live pig. Pay no attention to it, it
is not meant to deliver any more information than the interior of the milk
carton.
It's easy to handle Russians if you remember that the brute force and
natural command quality of the superior human race are the only things that
Russians take a notice of. A five year old child of a Lithuanian mother has
enough power in him to send a dozen of Russians packing. Raise the voice
and they run scared, back to the protective shadow of the woods. Edibility
- edible with Russian Dressing from Kraft Foods.
JEWS - smaller than Russians (next to a Lithuanian a Jew appears like
nothing but a dwarf) and more dark-skinned. Bid deceiving eyes, huge nose
pointing downward, long worm-like fingers trembling with greed will shout
"A JEW!" right at you. Unlike Russians, Jew don't form hordes; instead they
live in families where old Jews teach the young one the secrets of lying
and cheating. Jews are much smarter than Russians (oh, like that's a big
achievement) and much harder to get rid off. No one knows where they came
from or where they will go, when they go away. A Jew would not be a match
for a fair Lithuanian lad in any sport, but they often get ahead whereever
their cheating, lying and stealing goes unnoticed. Even Russians don't like
the Jews, not through systematic analysis and weighted judgement, like
Lithuanians, but through some native, druid-like gut feeling of the wild
wood dwellers. Jews never have pets of their own - unlike Russians, who
drag around their udly bastards of dogs and cats everywhere they set their
own dirty feet, Jews detest sharing their quarters with any living being
other than themselves. Or maybe it's the living that are keeping away from
these creepy bloodsuckers. Edibility - don't bother.
The full text of this very useful and good-humored manual will be available
in the fall from Mein Kampf Publishing House in Vilnus. It will also cover
such important subjects as "33 ways to get rid of the Gypsies and their
eggs", "Midgets - small people or big bugs?", "There is a Russian on my
bus!", "Odor management for a Jew-slayer", "I did not know Russians ate my
newspapers untill I called my psychic", "What you do not know about the
Jews may make your daughter marry one of them" and many more.
For entertainment purpose only.
--
Vladimir Svetlov, Ph. D.
McArdle Lab for Cancer Research
UW-Madison
1400 University Ave.
Madison, WI 53705
Michael Kagalenko
]In article <holman-ya02408000...@news.helsinki.fi>,
] hol...@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote:
]>
]> The photograph that I have in mind is in Goldhagen's 'Hitler's Willing
]> Executioners'. I don't have my copy at hand right now, but I will supply
]> the information.
]
]I believe that the Goldhagen book is having subtantial problems being
]taken seriously by respected historians - even Jewish ones.
You believe incorrectly. There is small and vocal group that opposes
the book conclusions, but no one disputes the accuracy of historical
facts presented by Goldhagen.
]>
]> Finally, you might consider the issues in the trial United States vs.
]> Vytautas Gecas (http://www.law.emory.edu/11circuit/apr95/93-3291.man.html)
]
]I am not familiar with this case. I do find some of the US evidence to be
]very suspect however. Look at the case of Demjanuk (sp?). How much
]KGB manufactured documentation was used in this case?
There is no evidence whatsoever that any "KGB manufactured documentation"
was used in Demjanjuk case. Moreover, there is no doubt that Demjanjuk
was camp guard and participated actively in genocide.
Evaldas Zvinys
: So do I. But the people who orchestrated and implemented the Holocaust were
: born into environments in which the church, particularly the church in its
: traditonal, rural, dogmatic form, still played a central role. Some of
: them, like Hitler and his closest associates, broke with the church, but
: this was after they had reached adulthood. The whole crew of them was
: raised in an environment in which the church, its dogmas, and its way of
: spreading information were central factors.
Take a look at
http://www.angelfire.com/ut/Luthuanian/indexs1.html
I still believe that the misfortunate events during the WWII
turmoil is something else than a long standing tradition.
The ball is still in your court.
-Evaldas
Miroslav Goldberg
One doesn't have to have a Ph.D. and work for McArdle Lab
for Cancer Research (but it certainly helps),
to spread filth and to recommend reading filth "by popular demand"
and for "for entertainment purpose only".
And I don't care how big a beef Mr.Svetlov got with Lithuanians.
Miroslav
Mike Davidchik
> > > Well, here you go again Holman. It is curious to note that you are rather
> > > rabidly anti-Catholic. That is fine, I believe the Catholic church,
> overall,
> > > has been a negative influence in the northern part of Europe.
> >
> > Anti-Catholic? No. The Catholic Church propagates a different world view
> > than the Protestant churches do, one that is more structured and contains
> > more historical baggage.
I will agree to the historical baggage because it has be around about
1,500 years longer than Protestantism. But, I am not sure about the
Church having
any particular "world view." Please enlighten me. I had six years of
Catholic schooling and I don't remember them giving me any "world view."
I would tend to think that Catholics and Protestants (also Orthodox) would
tend to have a world view more similar to each other, than compared to
atheists, agnostics, or others.
Even if Martin Luther himself was an extreme
> > anti-Semite, I don't think most people would contest the claim that
> > anti-Semitism has historically been more of a problem in the Catholic than
> > in the Protestant parts of Europe. Hitler himself was the product of a
> > Catholic environment (Austria, Bavaria). European Protestantism tends to be
> > rather secular; it is thus sharply opposed to Catholicism, which still
> > retains strong elements of mysticism and metaphysics.
You guys can be as anti-Catholic as you want, but don't blame anti-semiticism
and the holocaust on the Catholic Church. The non-Catholic parts of Europe
were traditionally just as anti-semitic (Orthodox and Protestant).
There is a big distance between anti-semiticism and wanting to murder all
of the Jews. The latter was specific to the German Nazis. You can hardly
say that the Catholic Church would have had any influence over
anti-semiticism in Lativa and Estonia. Why did most of the Jews prefer to
live in Catholic Lithuania than Protestant Latvia-Estonia? Why did they
preferred to live in Poland, Belarus, or the Ukraine, over Great Russia?
>
> Hmmm...More historical baggage Holman? Of course - it existed a bit longer
> than the Protestant churches - indeed, the various Protestant churches split
> off the Catholic church. Some for reasons other than noble. More
> structured? Do you mean displaying a greater internal logic? Catholic -
> antisemitic connection? The greatest antisemitic actions (aside from modern
> Germany - and what is it Protestant or Catholic?) ocurred when there was no
> Protestant church.
This is pure nonsense. Holman, you disappoint me. Martin Luther was a
"rabid" anti-Semite. Early Protestants were just as anti-Semitic. The
Orthodox tsars were as anti-semitic as anybody. Everybody was anti-semitic
to a degree in Central or Eastern Europe. There is a big difference
between prejudice and wanting to murder people.
Hitler was no more a Catholic than Stalin was an Eastern Orthodox. Both
had religious training. Many of the Nazis came from Protestant
backgrounds, so are we going to blame the Protestants for the Holacaust?
So whom do we credit them to? Your statement beyond
> "European Protestantism.." seems like pure academic garble to me.
It is pure babble. Everybody in Germany could have been Protestant and
the Nazis would still have tried to murder all of the Jews. There were
fascists
everywhere.
I strongly suspect that the western
> world would be substantially ahead in science and humanitarianism had this
> mid-Eastern religion never moved across the Mediterranean.
This is really a stupid statement. All of the main religions practiced by
Europeans came from outside of Europe. You are the guy who wished that the
Lithuanians remained pagans in the 14th Century. Most Lithuanians would
disagree with you. Most of the early advances in the arts, sciences,
culture,
music, etc., came from Christian sources. Most of the early scientists
were monks.
> > So do I. But the people who orchestrated and implemented the Holocaust were
> > born into environments in which the church, particularly the church in its
> > traditonal, rural, dogmatic form, still played a central role. Some of
> > them, like Hitler and his closest associates, broke with the church, but
> > this was after they had reached adulthood. The whole crew of them was
> > raised in an environment in which the church, its dogmas, and its way of
> > spreading information were central factors.
Mr. Holman, there is no evidence. It is mostly coincidental that Hitler
and some of his early associates came from Austria (a mostly Catholic
country). Nazism was mostly a German thing, not a Catholic thing. Did all
the other Catholics want to become Nazis? You are confusing religion with
political philosophy and socio-economic factors contributing to the rise
of fascism and totalitarianism.
>
> You are really forcing things here Holman. Psychohistory!!
> > I consider farming to be a profession, but peasantry to be a way of life.
American farmers would disagree. They think it is a great way of life.
> > During the 1930s a good proportion of the rural population of eastern
> > Europe was still peasants.
This was true of much of the world at the time.
More illiterate than literate, a lifestyle
> > governed more by tradition, stability, superstition, and rumor, and largely
> > insulated from the rapid and bewildering changes that were taking place in
> > the cities.
What's wrong with tradition and stability? I doubt that they were so isolated
that they didn't know about the worldwide depression of the 30s.
This peasantry could have been any religion. So-called enlightened city
dwellers did their share of destroying Western Civilization. Most of the
Nazis and Communists came from cities.
>
> Hmm - then you might say that currently there is a strong "peasant" movement
> throughout the US. People are looking to reestablish tradition, stability,
> your superstition - their faith, insulation from the rapidly developing
> social problems in the large cities, and are happy to listen to rumor
> (internet) rather than the pc dogma coming out of the assorted established
> networks.
The U.S. is one of the most religious countries in the world. By Holman then,
it couldn't be the most advanced.
Contrary to Holman, In the U.S.,Catholics are mostly in the urban areas,
Protestants in the rural areas. Catholics are generally better educated
than Protestants. Catholics are traditionally more liberal than
Protestants. Catholics condemned slavery in the U.S. a long time before
the Civil War. Catholics were in the forefront of the civil rights
movement. Catholic high schools and universities have produced some of the
greatest American minds.
The Liberal establishment in the U.S.
is really just pissed at the Church because of the abortion and feminism
issues, and the Fundamentalist Protestant wackos are pissed at the Church
for not becoming a bunch of right-wing bible-thumping fanatics. The
Democratic Party is pissed at the Church because many Catholics are
starting to vote Republican. The Government is pissed at the Church
because they cannot tax it. The Education Establishment is pissed at the
Church for trying to take away their monopoly money. The ex-Commies are
pissed at the Church for trying to get back into Eastern Europe. I could
go on and on....Despite all, the Church will continue!
The thing about blaming Catholics for the Nazis and the Holacaust is definitely
one of these stupid PC things coming out. It was instigated by an Italian
Communist author to get Jews pissed off at the Church over WW2. He stole
the idea from Sovok KGB propagandists who used it during WW2. Non-American
readers should know that a U.S. person's religious affiliation has very
little to do with most of their views on other subjects (including
change).
Mike
Maris Ozols
>In soc.culture.polish Evaldas Zvinys <gin...@Glue.umd.edu> wrote:
>: Moreover, I am avare of Jewish culture development both in Kaunas and
>: Vilnius. Also, apart from your WWII examples and "common rural language"
>
>Vilnius Jews had little contacts with ethnic Lithuanians.
>
> Jerzy Pankiewicz
>
If this is true, and I fear it may be, then it was a very sad state of
affairs. The same can be said about a large proportion of London Jews
who live in their little self-constructed mental ghettos in Golders
Green and Stoke Newington. I think that one of the Jewish prominences
here in GB, possible Hugo Grimm, said that one of the reasons that
Jews suffered what they did in Eastern Europe was their tendency to
remain apart and not contribute to the community
Maris.
WARNING!!!
The return email address was altered to foil the bulk email
spammers. If you reply to this message, please manually remove
* from the end of the return address or it'll bounce. Thanks!
Vladimir Svetlov
<miro...@home.se> wrote:
: Vladimir Svetlov is a "cultured" chap indeed. :-(
Miroslav, I'm afraid that ne ponyal ty v pesne, uvy, ne h... (DDT). In
other (English) words, my post went completely over your head. Since Viagra
for the heads is not yet available, try next time to climb on the top of
the box of diapers. Not that it would bring you at the level, but you may
fall of it and amuse your babysitter.
regards,
v.
--
V. Svetlov, Ph. D.
McArdle Laboratory for Cancer Research
University of WI, Madison
1400 University Ave.
Madison, WI 53706
Jack R. Badura
Holman, Halminas
On numerous ocassions you seem to be stragling with definition of
"peasantry as compared with other groups and circumstances.
I posted "Means of Sustenance, which defines a relationship of
dependency.
So called "peasant mentality" is based on the mentality of self
sustainung people. This group may be compared to nowone alse
as in american terms "momesteaders".
Therefore, a natural discrepancy exists between self-sustaining"
individuals and those whose sustenance is depending on others.
Thre is obvious jelousy of this independency, which is provoking
resentment and snaps.
A level of education differs on many occassions, which allows
to take advantage of the situation.
may I point out that "peasant" i.e. self-sustaining mentality in
Poland was able to finally throw out communism.
Hope it helps your confussion.
Jack
**************************************************************************************
I strongly suspect that the western
>world would be substantially ahead in science and humanitarianism had this
>mid-Eastern religion never moved across the Mediterranean.
*****************************
This is a very, very interesting statement, with which I tend to
agree.
What is called a "western civilization" has been propagating over last
few centeries.
What beautiful morality based on superiority of what ??
Plandering and grabing from "savages" fully justified by this
"morality".
"Discovery of America" What ignorance etc.
Well topic is long. I hope I am making my point.
**********************************************************
On the other end religious believes provided social cussion in
"Darwinistic" times, where no other recourses were available.
As the religion acted in cooperation with power systems they were
always tolerated and progressed actually helping to perpetuate system
of power. They suplemented this power by dissolving oposition
and providing means of exixtance and help. Power used that
in a rather neutral fashion for convenience.
****************************************************
>> > But then, I
>> > tend to be anti-church in general.
*****************************************
Well if you look on church as social cussion and moral support of
spirit in "awarness of nothingness" it may be constructive.
What other better alternative is there ???
**********************************
The history is nothing else as one single war and royal intrique.
Urge of domination and urge of preservation fight each other.
At any given time you may blame anyone and anything for distress and
missery.
It is a rather useless exerecise. The point is in teaching and
brainwashing. To anyone advantage it would be to educate himself or
herself in more than one cukture and more that one language.
Americas have a tremendous advantage in its history in this respect.
The "moral back" is built on the mentality of dissident well very
close to "independent self-sustaining" peasant.
The poin is that such a person res[pects the differences of opinions
as natural. This is completely opposed to "European mentality".
and also religious trends.
*******************************************************************
>> So do I. But the people who orchestrated and implemented the Holocaust were
>> born into environments in which the church, particularly the church in its
>> traditonal, rural, dogmatic form, still played a central role.
************************************
I would tend to say that the moment self-dependency was threatened" in
one way or the other people looked for "reasons". Well here we have
chin of dependency, which they try to brake.
**********************************************
>> > Point two - I am so
>> > happy to see that you use that good old Ameican term "peasant"
(well again american equivalent is "HOMESTEADER". Only through class
distinct society this term had a negative conotation.
I believe it is " jelousy of dependency".
*************************************************************
meant for
>> > most east Europeans - as in "the peasants burned the fair maiden ( or jew
>> > or whatever) at the stake etc. etc. Just what is a peasant - at what point
>> > does he become a plain old farmer? Are farmers mor likely to mistreat jews
>> > than other occupations?
***********************************
Peasant, Farmer, homesteader well just a shadow of "speaker
preference". Again self-dependency as compared with dependency on
others is a factor.
********************************************
>> I consider farming to be a profession, but peasantry to be a way of life.
****************************
This may apply as a comparison with industrial sociaty but misses a
point and is more of a "figure of speach" only.
********************************************************
>> During the 1930s a good proportion of the rural population of eastern
>> Europe was still peasants.
***********************************
80 % of land was in private hands even under communists - small
farms - few arcres etc.
The same applies to States where now only 3 % work on land.
Well times change and the same change is comming in industry, where in
few years only 3 % will be needed to manufacture.
This throws us into dependency relationship and makes as "better than
peasants". Well we have it upside down !!
*********************************************************
More illiterate than literate, a lifestyle
>> governed more by tradition, stability, superstition, and rumor, and largely
>> insulated from the rapid and bewildering changes that were taking place in
>> the cities.
******************************
Yehhhh !!!
>Hmm - then you might say that currently there is a strong "peasant" movement
>throughout the US.
****************************************
Yes, many what to be self-dependent.
********************************************
People are looking to reestablish tradition, stability,
>your superstition - their faith, insulation from the rapidly developing
>social problems in the large cities, and are happy to listen to rumor
>(internet) rather than the pc dogma coming out of the assorted established
>networks.
****************************
People subconciously feel volnerable and are simply scarred.
Nor they understand what is happening and why.
**********************************************************
That just
>> > reminds me of an article in some goofy US magazine (probably your favorite
>> > time) dealing with east European fascism. One of the more hilarious
>> > proofs they included was a photograph of (yes your favorite Lithuanian
>> > civilians - perhaps even the same ones?) a mass of people wildly cheering
>> > a military column marching by.
*****************************************
Every single country in Europe (exception Poland) had a pro fashist
and communist group and movement. The trick and problem in Europe was
that at one time or the other groups were taking sides.
By taking sides they invariably found themselves on the wrong side of
the power spectrun. Than the other groups were on top.
The unfortune history of Europe especially Central Europe is that
"oppressors" were able to antagonized. They antagonized anyone agains
everyone and vice versa. In this situation taking advantage at a given
moment was usually paid for few years later.
**********************************************************
Well maybe we will continue later.
Take care.
Jack
al...@ix.netcom.com
> panki...@sun1000.pwr.wroc.pl (Jerzy Pankiewicz) wrote:
>
> >In soc.culture.polish Evaldas Zvinys <gin...@Glue.umd.edu> wrote:
> >: Moreover, I am avare of Jewish culture development both in Kaunas and
> >: Vilnius. Also, apart from your WWII examples and "common rural language"
> >
> >Vilnius Jews had little contacts with ethnic Lithuanians.
> >
> > Jerzy Pankiewicz
> >
> If this is true, and I fear it may be, then it was a very sad state of
> affairs. The same can be said about a large proportion of London Jews
> who live in their little self-constructed mental ghettos in Golders
> Green and Stoke Newington. I think that one of the Jewish prominences
> here in GB, possible Hugo Grimm, said that one of the reasons that
> Jews suffered what they did in Eastern Europe was their tendency to
> remain apart and not contribute to the community
>
> Maris.
If this is true... But it isn't. German Jews, for example, were probably the
most secular and intermingled bunch in whole Europe. They had a long love
affair with the German culture and most of them would have probably been
insulted if refered to as Jews. No, majority of them considered themselves
Germans first, anything else later. Of course it didn't help them much in the
end.
Besides, do you really suggest that Jews deserved to be exterminated to for the
lack of social activity? I don't really care what some british Jew said one
time or another, prompted by subconscious guilt of his own failure to do even a
tiny thing in order to prevent, or at least, call attention to the destruction
befallen on the Jews in rest of the Europe.
A.
flaccid erudition
>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/museums/notebook/burchard/kovno11
>28.htm),
This article, printed in 1997, brings up an interesting point with
regard to, in my opinion, its credibility. Nowhere in the entire
article is the name "Kaunas" used to describe the city located where
the Neris meets the Nemunas.
Every map I have seen printed since Lithuanian independence prints the
name of that city as "Kaunas," and that includes the maps in
English. Elsewhere in the news, datelines carry the name "Kaunas." Yet
the author of this article neglects to even include a misleading but
effort-betraying "known now as Kaunas."
Writing in this way, the author accomplishes a few nefarious tropes
right away: he aligns himself explicitly and exclusively with the
Holocaust Museum. Though, of course, his piece is ultimately fluff (it
ran, after all, in the style section) and makes no pretensions toward
expressing an opinion, this tiny detail, simply put, squicks me and
throws the whole article into disrepute.
--m
--
<moacir p. de sa pereira> moa...@zuikis.uchicago.edu
NOTE NEW EMAIL ADDRESS-------^^^^^^
BRASIL ... BRASIL ... BRASIL ... BRASIL ... BRASIL ... BRASIL ... BRASIL
halm...@msn.com
Hey Mike, I am not "anti-Catholic" nor do I blame anit-Semitism on the
Catholic church. Matter of fact I have wondered why the Catholic church
gets a disproportionate share of the blame - has anyone taken a nose-count
of catholics and protestants among the people who have abused Jews? My
only explanation is that the Catholic church provides a much more clearly
defined target. Whom are you going to attack among the protestants - in
the US you would have to go after at least 2000 targets.
> There is a big distance between anti-semiticism and wanting to murder all
> of the Jews. The latter was specific to the German Nazis. You can hardly
> say that the Catholic Church would have had any influence over
> anti-semiticism in Lativa and Estonia. Why did most of the Jews prefer to
> live in Catholic Lithuania than Protestant Latvia-Estonia? Why did they
> preferred to live in Poland, Belarus, or the Ukraine, over Great Russia?
Good question, unless the Jews of the time were suicidally masochistic.
Yes, and perhaps that is the problem. I believe that a religion develops
within a given population to fill that population's needs. Thus a religion
is a product of the culture within which it develops. It becomes a
depository of that culture's morality, basic laws, dreams etc. etc. It is
originally a product of the culture and subsequently a moral depository and
stabilizer for that culture. Yet in Europe the major religions are based on
the needs and precepts formed in a foreign culture. How would a European
religion look? No idea. I suspect it would incorporate a greater degree of
individualism and would show a greater connection to nature - in this
Christianity is totally lacking.
>You are the guy who wished that the Lithuanians remained pagans in the 14th
>Century. Most Lithuanians would disagree with you.
I frankly don't recall if I have mentioned the subject. However, the
Lithuanians certainly did better as pagans than as Christians. They certainly
held off those Teutonic holy butchers for a long, long time. This despite
the fact that they were still but a loose confederation of clans. However,
more seriously, I have not idea what the majority of Lithuanians might wish.
In that they were raised Christian the answer is probably obvious.
> Most of the early advances in the arts, sciences, culture, music, etc., came
>from Christian sources. Most of the early scientists were monks.
Well, I have problems here. Keeping in mind that the Christian religion
is derivative from the Judaic which, I believe, does not permit "graven
images (paintings, sculpture - someone please correct me if I am wrong)"
I would say that the art in Europe does not arise from the religion but
rather from the culture and is/was applied for religeous purposes. I would
say that the same holds true for music. I am not aware of Catholic or
Protestant music (as such) but there is certainly Italian, French, etc.
music. Culture - this is deffinitely something that grows out of the
local population rather than a religeous overprint. Science - well, the
monks were the only "leisure class" at that time. If there had not been
Christianity there would have been an alternate "leisure class".
I believe that the opinions that Holman is bringing up here had their
beginnings in the Nazi "east European Untermensch" concept. This has
taken very strong rood in the US with substantial help from Hollywood.
Western Europe is not far behind. East European peasant = Neanderthal?
> > Hmm - then you might say that currently there is a strong "peasant" movement
> > throughout the US. People are looking to reestablish tradition, stability,
> > your superstition - their faith, insulation from the rapidly developing
> > social problems in the large cities, and are happy to listen to rumor
> > (internet) rather than the pc dogma coming out of the assorted established
> > networks.
>
> The U.S. is one of the most religious countries in the world. By Holman then,
> it couldn't be the most advanced.
>
> Contrary to Holman, In the U.S.,Catholics are mostly in the urban areas,
> Protestants in the rural areas. Catholics are generally better educated
> than Protestants. Catholics are traditionally more liberal than
> Protestants. Catholics condemned slavery in the U.S. a long time before
> the Civil War. Catholics were in the forefront of the civil rights
> movement. Catholic high schools and universities have produced some of the
> greatest American minds.
Actually the US has had an anti-Catholic tradition since the birth of
the nation. Frankly, I think it has been more open and more pervasive
than anti-semitism. I remember getting strong anti-Catholic doses in public
school. I have often wondered why the US Catholics keep such a low
profile - considering that they do make up a very substantial percentage
of the population.
> The Liberal establishment in the U.S.
> is really just pissed at the Church because of the abortion and feminism
> issues, and the Fundamentalist Protestant wackos are pissed at the Church
> for not becoming a bunch of right-wing bible-thumping fanatics. The
> Democratic Party is pissed at the Church because many Catholics are
> starting to vote Republican. The Government is pissed at the Church
> because they cannot tax it. The Education Establishment is pissed at the
> Church for trying to take away their monopoly money. The ex-Commies are
> pissed at the Church for trying to get back into Eastern Europe. I could
> go on and on....Despite all, the Church will continue!
>
> The thing about blaming Catholics for the Nazis and the Holacaust is
definitely
> one of these stupid PC things coming out. It was instigated by an Italian
> Communist author to get Jews pissed off at the Church over WW2. He stole
> the idea from Sovok KGB propagandists who used it during WW2. Non-American
> readers should know that a U.S. person's religious affiliation has very
> little to do with most of their views on other subjects (including
> change).
Just whom would you attack in the multitude of Protestant churches? I think
the Catholic church gets blamed simply because it is a single target.
> Mike
Best - - Henry
L.Gordeev
On Thu, 9 Jul 1998, Mike Davidchik wrote:
> You guys can be as anti-Catholic as you want, but don't blame anti-semiticism
> and the holocaust on the Catholic Church. The non-Catholic parts of Europe
> were traditionally just as anti-semitic (Orthodox and Protestant).
[snip]
> Hitler was no more a Catholic than Stalin was an Eastern Orthodox. Both
> had religious training. Many of the Nazis came from Protestant
> backgrounds, [snip]
This is correct. As for Germany, Protestant Hamburg was called Nazi
Capital of the Third Reich -- contrary to Catholic Munich (in Bavaria,
not in Hollywood) where Hitler was arrested and put in jail after his failed
putsch and where (later) a bunch of university students tried to organize
anti-nazi resistance. Several Catholic priests were executed for anti-nazi
activity, but I'm unaware of such cases among Protestant clergy (well, at
least, Catholic resistance is better known from post-war mass media). Some
authors argued that "conservative" moral values allegedly were more deeply
rooted in traditional Catholic environment ...
L.G
Mike Davidchik
<Pine.HPP.3.91.980710...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de>,
"L.Gordeev" <iik...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Jul 1998, Mike Davidchik wrote:
>
> > You guys can be as anti-Catholic as you want, but don't blame
anti-semiticism
> > and the holocaust on the Catholic Church. The non-Catholic parts of Europe
> > were traditionally just as anti-semitic (Orthodox and Protestant).
> [snip]
> > Hitler was no more a Catholic than Stalin was an Eastern Orthodox. Both
> > had religious training. Many of the Nazis came from Protestant
> > backgrounds, [snip]
>
> This is correct. As for Germany, Protestant Hamburg was called Nazi
> Capital of the Third Reich -- contrary to Catholic Munich (in Bavaria,
> not in Hollywood) where Hitler was arrested and put in jail after his failed
> putsch and where (later) a bunch of university students tried to organize
> anti-nazi resistance. Several Catholic priests were executed for anti-nazi
> activity, but I'm unaware of such cases among Protestant clergy (well, at
> least, Catholic resistance is better known from post-war mass media). Some
> authors argued that "conservative" moral values allegedly were more deeply
> rooted in traditional Catholic environment ...
>
> L.G
About five million non-Jews died in Nazi concentration camps. There were
a lot more Catholics and Orthodox than Lutherans or Calvinists in these
camps.
Mike
Alex Iatskovski
wrote:
>In article
><Pine.HPP.3.91.980710...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de>,
>"L.Gordeev" <iik...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 9 Jul 1998, Mike Davidchik wrote:
>>
>> > You guys can be as anti-Catholic as you want, but don't blame anti-semiticism
>> > and the holocaust on the Catholic Church...
>> > were traditionally just as anti-semitic (Orthodox and Protestant).
>> > [...]
>> This is correct. As for Germany, Protestant Hamburg was called Nazi
>> Capital of the Third Reich -- contrary to Catholic Munich...
>About five million non-Jews died in Nazi concentration camps...
>[...]
Folks, would you please remove soc.culture.russian newsgroup from headers
of your messages in this very tread? It has nothing to do with Russian
culture what so ever. Nothing personal, just polite request.
=============================================================
Alex Iatskovski<74642...@compuserve.com> SCR FAQ Maintainer
SOC.CULTURE.RUSSIAN FAQ is located on:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Russian_Club/
=============================================================
Mike Davidchik
> Actually the US has had an anti-Catholic tradition since the birth of
> the nation. Frankly, I think it has been more open and more pervasive
> than anti-semitism. I remember getting strong anti-Catholic doses in public
> school. I have often wondered why the US Catholics keep such a low
> profile - considering that they do make up a very substantial percentage
> of the population.
Catholics have been attacked by secular humanists, atheists, Communists,
Fundamentalist Protestants, public educators, etc., for three or four
generations. Contrast talk with reality. Every major city in the country
has Catholic hospitals, universities, schools, orphan homes, etc.
Catholic schools are the only real competitor with public schools. There
is a Catholic media establishment, all kinds of Catholic groups and
organizations, etc. Almost every town has a Catholic parish. The
national Catholic infrastructure is still there, despite all the attacks.
As long as one out of three or one out of four remains Catholic, all the
anti-Catholic propaganda will not work. The dangers are mostly within the
Church.
I agree that they are very low profile, but astute observers know that it
is a sleeping giant.
Mike
Maris Ozols
>Maris Ozols wrote:
>
>> panki...@sun1000.pwr.wroc.pl (Jerzy Pankiewicz) wrote:
>>
>> >In soc.culture.polish Evaldas Zvinys <gin...@Glue.umd.edu> wrote:
>> >: Moreover, I am avare of Jewish culture development both in Kaunas and
>> >: Vilnius. Also, apart from your WWII examples and "common rural language"
>> >
>> >Vilnius Jews had little contacts with ethnic Lithuanians.
>> >
>> > Jerzy Pankiewicz
>> >
>> If this is true, and I fear it may be, then it was a very sad state of
>> affairs. The same can be said about a large proportion of London Jews
>> who live in their little self-constructed mental ghettos in Golders
>> Green and Stoke Newington. I think that one of the Jewish prominences
>> here in GB, possible Hugo Grimm, said that one of the reasons that
>> Jews suffered what they did in Eastern Europe was their tendency to
>> remain apart and not contribute to the community
>>
>> Maris.
>
> If this is true... But it isn't. German Jews, for example, were probably the
>most secular and intermingled bunch in whole Europe. They had a long love
>affair with the German culture and most of them would have probably been
>insulted if refered to as Jews. No, majority of them considered themselves
>Germans first, anything else later. Of course it didn't help them much in the
>end.
I have heard this before but maybe that was just the German Jews.
>
>Besides, do you really suggest that Jews deserved to be exterminated to for the
>lack of social activity?
It has taken a quantum leap of your imagination to suggest that I
implied that.
> I don't really care what some british Jew said one
>time or another, prompted by subconscious guilt of his own failure to do even a
>tiny thing in order to prevent, or at least, call attention to the destruction
>befallen on the Jews in rest of the Europe.
Getting a little bit emotional now, are we? The point that I was
underlining was civilisation's (yes, civilisation's) tendency to
marginalise those who are different, don't mix in etc. as wonderfully
portrayed in William Golding's 'Lord of the Flies', for instance. You
stand outside of society at your own peril.
M (not be confused with he of James Bond fame)
>J>A.
Igor Sagdeev
>Vladimir Svetlov is a "cultured" chap indeed. :-(
>One doesn't have to have a Ph.D. and work for McArdle Lab
>for Cancer Research (but it certainly helps),
>to spread filth and to recommend reading filth "by popular demand"
>and for "for entertainment purpose only".
>
>And I don't care how big a beef Mr.Svetlov got with Lithuanians.
>
>Miroslav
Miroslav,
Have you read Mr. Svetlov's opus at all?
It most certainly wasn't what you thought it was, and, unlike most of
his writing known to me, it was funny.
As to Mr. Svetlov's grudge against Lithuania, I think he selected it
rather randomly. Most certainly, one could use Russia just as well,
by simply changing the word "Russian" to "Turko-Okrainian" or
something like that, and the word "Lithuania" to "Russia". Both
countries (and most others too) have enough people with just this
vision.
You can continue to sleep in peace. I can't guarantee it, but I don't
think it will be Mr. Svetlov dragging you (and me) to Ponary some day.
Yours, Igor
Evaldas Zvinys
: al...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
: >Maris Ozols wrote:
: >
: >> panki...@sun1000.pwr.wroc.pl (Jerzy Pankiewicz) wrote:
: >>
: >> >In soc.culture.polish Evaldas Zvinys <gin...@Glue.umd.edu> wrote:
: >> >: Moreover, I am avare of Jewish culture development both in Kaunas and
: >> >: Vilnius. Also, apart from your WWII examples and "common rural language"
: >> >
: >> >Vilnius Jews had little contacts with ethnic Lithuanians.
: >> >
: >> > Jerzy Pankiewicz
: >> >
Maris, I think Jerzy wanted to say that during the interwar Vilnius
was a part of Poland (de facto, not de jure), and therefore the contacts
with ethnic Lithuanians were limited.
-Evaldas
Shadt
I believe you have not understood what Mikhail Svetlov wrote. He
summarized
in the critical and yet peculiar form all the "ethnical hatred clishes"
directed towards Russians and Jews, that you can hear every day in the
western parta of the Former SU. His post was anti-hatred and
anti-faschist.
I think you grossly misunderstood him.
Best wishes,
V.S.
Miroslav Goldberg wrote:
> Firstly Mr.Svetlov, your original post speaks volumes for itself.
> Secondly, your answer to my post speaks even more for itself.
> Instead of getting personal, stop spreading xenophobic filth,
> pretending to be a super-intellectual super-libertarian.
> You are NOT !!!
>
> Miroslav
Miroslav Goldberg
Miroslav Goldberg
> Miroslav,
>
> I believe you have not understood what Mikhail Svetlov wrote. He
> summarized
> in the critical and yet peculiar form all the "ethnical hatred clishes"
> directed towards Russians and Jews, that you can hear every day in the
> western parta of the Former SU. His post was anti-hatred and
> anti-faschist.
> I think you grossly misunderstood him.
>
> Best wishes,
> V.S.
Actually, I did not misunderstand Mr. Svetlov's posts.
On the contrary, I understood what he wrote (including his intentions)
as you did. My "misunderstanding" was pretended and was intentional.
My point was / is: his "peculiar form" does more harm than good.
His "ironic critisism" is not visible enough for others, leaving his
post to "misinterepretations" such as mine.
His intentions to force the readers to read between the lines,
DO NOT COUNT and are in vain, because they are outweighted by
the xenophobic filth, he "wants us to think", he takes exception to.
Because in your own key words:
"He summarized in....PECULIAR FORM".
If one wants to play on Usenet, an over-intellectualized anti-hatred hero as
Mr.Svetlov clearly does, one better makes damned sure to not leave anything
to "misinterpretation". Any written "ironic" message (contrary to a spoken one) must
be very well formulated, to hit home.
Miroslav
L.Gordeev
On 13 Jul 1998, Miroslav Goldberg wrote:
> His "ironic critisism" is not visible enough for others, leaving his
> post to "misinterepretations" such as mine.
By all due respect, stranger, I bet you're the only "others" around.
I appreciate Mr. Svetlov's humorous aberration from otherwise pretty
boring politprop in s.c.b., s.c.p. and s.c.r..
L.G
Igor Sagdeev
I'm somewhat late in joining discussion of the topic, but this one is
"closer to home" for me. I'd like to give my perspective on it, as a
descendent of Litvaks (Lithuanian Jews).
>Eugene Holman (hol...@elo.helsinki.fi) wrote:
>: Secondly, Estonia was not a country with an anti-Semitic tradition, as
>was
>: unfortunately the case in Lithuania, or with enough Jews for it to be
>: possible to artificially whip up anti-Semitism, as was the case in
>Latvia.
>Since this is a very painful topic to a lot of Lithuanians, it would be
>nice if we could set the record straight - wrong accusations lead to wrong
>doings.
>In my opinion tradition is something that lasts more than two or three
>years in such a turmoil as was WWII. To me the fact that nazis were able
You are right here, and Eugene is wrong. Lithuania (both in the
narrow sense of today's Rep. of Lithuania, and in the broad sense of
the Grand Duchy, including today's Belarus), was not historically
anti-Semitic. In the Middle Ages, the Grand Duchy was one of the safe
havens of the European Jews, and an important center of the Jewsih
religious and cultural life. The only major massacres of the Jews in
the Grand Duchy prior to the partitions was perpetrated by Bohdan
Chmielnicki's invaders, not by the locals.
Even in the late 19th - early 20th century, when the Black Hundreds
instigated and carried out pogroms throughout the Pale, the old Grand
Duchy was far behind the Ukraine and Bessarabia in those, and I
haven't ever read of any major pogroms on the territory of today's
Rep. of Lithuania (if anyone knowns of one, please let us know).
In the interwar period, the situation of the Jews in the Rep. of Lith.
was one of the best in Eastern Europe. While probably not completely
equal, they did not suffer such humiliating discrimination as, e.g.,
in Poland after Pilsudski's death (I have heard enough personal
recollections of that from a relative of mine who lived in the 1930ies
Wilno). There is little reason to talk about a "country with
anti-Semitic tradition" in the case of Lithuania.
That is, before WWII, when things abruptly changed.
>to find a few dozen people who possibly participated in the holocaust is
>important, but it does not prove that this is the tradition typical for
>the whole country and its people for a significant amount of time.
Here, unfortunately, you significantly underestimate the number of
Christian Lithuanians involved in the Holocaust. During WWII there
was a significant surge of anti-Semitism and "popular" pogroms in
Lithuania, involving, probably, thousands of people.
I don't know if you have ever heard about the Kaunas massacre of June
22-24, 1941, following the LAF insurgency, and stopped by the Wermacht
entering the city? It has been discussed several times on BALT-L,
including some horrible eyewitness accounts by Almus Salcius. You can
search the BALT-L archive for it. This is the one and only pogrom in
the Rep. of Lithuania known to me, but it was both a large-scale and a
horrible action, carried out by local "activists" and not by the Nazis
or Soviets.
I don't know how great was the local (both Lithuanian and Polish)
involvment in the subsequent destruction of the quarter of a million
Litvaks, but there are some indication that it wasn't just "a few
dozen" people.
In a recent BALT-L posting, Edis Bevan (a half Lithuanian, and
certainly not a Jew) gave a horrifying quotation from a letter of Dr.
Elkhanan Elkes, the head of the council in the Kaunas ghetto
to his children:
"The soil of Lithuania is soaked with our blood , killed at the hands
of the Lithuanians themselves. Lithuanians, with whom we have
lived for hundreds of years and whom, with all our strength we
helped to achieve their own national independence.... Never have
anything more to do with them; they and their children are accursed
for ever."
I think this (insider's and contemporary's) opinion testifies both to
the degree of the local involvement in Holocaust in Lithuania, and to
the contradiction between this involvement and the tradition, which
was anything but singularly anti-Semitic.
>The 40s is a quite different story and a rather painful one. After
>Hitler-Stalin pact, Russians came over in 1940. Proven statistics shows
>that in the communist organisations percentage chunk of jews was larger
>than the percentage of jews (take famous Greifenberger) in the overall
>populations, and therefore more jews got promoted as the Russians came.
>Again, this is pretty much universal trend, the estonian participant of
>this thread mentioned it, also similar things were in Russia.
That's right. In Russia the trend was very similar, except that there
was another minority that won undying glory in the "revolution" there:
the Letts.
>However in
>general soviets did not make much discrimination, they killed jews and
>lithuanians alike e.g. in Rainiai slaughter (1940).
This is even more true. As I have read somewhere, the Jews were
overrepresented among those deported in June 1941 as well. Besides
the Jewish Communists, there were also Jewish capitalists,
shopkeepers, Rabbis, Zionists (like Menahem Begin, one of the inmates
of a Vilnius jail under the Soviets), etc., who were not very
desirable in the Brave New World.
I would want to stress, however, that I do *not* think that the Jews
were the principal victim of the Soviet terror. I have heard enough
whining from a number of people that the Communists were mostly after:
- Jews (you hear it from some Jews),
- Poles ( "most of those shot in Kuropaty were Poles, and shot because
they were Poles"; "in 1930-32 there was a massive cleansing of Poles
in the USSR"),
- Russians (the whole thing was a "Jewish-Masonic conspiracy to
destroy the Russian people"),
- Lithuanians (you guessed it right, only a Lithuanian can say that -
and not every one at that),
- etc (put any ethnonym, anywhere in the world).
I don't share these views in any way. True , some ethnic groups had
more trouble than the others (actually, those are not listed above),
but none was exempt from the relentless terror and plundering. Many
Jews in Lithuania participated in the Soviet crimes, but, probably,
many more were among the victims (ironically, many of them owe their
survival to the Soviet deportation of June 1941 - among the *5 or 6*
percent of the Lithuanian Jews who survived the war most survived it
outside Lithuania).
Still, the actions of the Jewish Commies did not endear the Jews as a
whole to their gentile neighbours. Moreover, I have to admit that the
sentiments of the most Litvaks (not just the Communists) were not
always the same as that of their neighbours. For example, I have read
and heard that throughout the 20ies and 30ies the general sentiment of
most Jews of the Central Lithuania (Litwa Srodkowa, Wilenszczyzna,
Ritu Lietuva) was pro-Kaunas rather than pro-Warsaw. This may or may
not be true, but in 1939 the Jews of the region were most certainly
happy to see the Lithuanian Army march into the region. I don't think
this endeared them to their Polish neighbours. A year later, most Jews
of both Vilnius and the pre-war Lithuania looked at the Soviet
occupation as a *lesser evil* than a Nazi one. And it was - for them.
But not necessarily for their gentile compatriots, who certainly
harboured anger against them from at least this moment.
How can we treat this difference in the Jewish and non-Jewish views in
crucial years 1939-1941? Did it justify the massacres that followed? I
don't think we're ever all agree on this. I prefer to believe in
consistency. If we decide (as some do here) that it was a good thing
for Ja'nis Krietins to take up a rifle, don an SS uniform and go fight
for Latvia against a greater [Soviet Communist] evil, because the
latter was worse *for the Letts*, than we have to justify the Jewish
Commie supporters of 1940-41 as well (except, maybe the KGB folks, not
very numerous) - *for the Jews* the Soviets were the lesser evil.
Incidentally, about as big a fraction of Lithuania's Jews survived
the 3 years of Nazi occupation (below 10%) as the fraction of all
Lithuanians ("true", Polish-speaking, Jewish, etc.) that were killed,
imprisoned or deported throughout the decades of the Soviet rule. No,
I don't like or justify the latter - I just want to stress that it
*was* a rather lesser evil *for the Jews*. On the other hand, if we
find defending narrow tribal interests unjustifiable in the face of a
major world catastrophe, we should end up trumpeting less about the
glory of the Legions. My own opinion of these things is not clear-cut,
but at least I would like to treat all controversies (the SS Legions,
the Jews welcoming the Soviets, the Vlasov's Russian
Libertation Army, etc.) on an equal footing. Hopefully, some day we'll
look at them sine ira et studio. This time has not come yet.
>Then the nazis came
>and the people who knew how to dance to their music got promoted. They did
>what they did, and it is very shameful, for one that a lot of people were
>killed, and that a unique community with its culture was exterminated.
I'd add that this was a unique culture, distinct from the Jewsih
cultures elsewhere, and that it is now gone for good. Maybe it's not
such a great loss as that of some "native" cultures, but a loss it is.
Plus, a quarter of a million lives were brutally terminated.
>However, one should note that not only jews suffered from holocaust.
>Example - Pirciupis village where all the people in the village were
>herded into one barn and burned to the ground.
In the old Soviet Union there was an opposite trend: talking a lot
about the destruction of "the Soviet citizens" (including the
Lithuanians, by the way) by the Nazis, but not even mentioning their
"special attitude" towards the Jews. In the US, of course, you hear
mostly about the Jewsih Holocaust. Small wonder: every one of us knows
from the early days that his own ethnic group (country, tribe,
whatever) (1) is the most righteous, and (2) has suffered more than
any other [usually from its perennially vicious neighbours].
>Also, one does not need
>the whole Lithuania to help run a concentration camp, couple of dozen of
>local people is enough.
...even that's not necessary: you can import hangmen. However, it
looks like Lithuania has produced a lot more than just a couple of
dozen, and even exported some.
>However, again, many Lithuanians saved jews - and
>that's frequently is forgotten by S. Wiesenthal center.
It wasn't very many, but there certainly were some - and it was a very
risky business, requiring courage as well as kindness. Remembering
these people would do more today than accusations against whole
nations that they "did nothing" to save the Jews in WWII that we can
hear today. Unfortunately, the Jews are not much different from the
rest of the humanity, and even so much suffering hasn't apparently
taught made them any more different. Just like a majority of any other
nation/group/tribe, most Jews I have met can only see their own
(usually, in the group, not personal, sense) suffering, blame others,
and use without reservations any privilege bestowed on them (e.g., the
"Lautenberg program"). Giving up this "piece of cake" to some Tutsies
or Afghans, or other victims of today's holocausts wouldn't require
as much sacrifice as saving Jews in Nazi-occupied Europe did (just a
loss of foodstamps, Medicaid/are and Section 8 housing), but... it
seems to be too much. Again, this is not any different than what
others would do, but why not be more condescending to those very
others?
>risking their lives.I am not saying that people who participated in jewish
>holocaust should not pay for it or that it should be forgotten. I am just
>saying that this is our history and we should know it.
I believe that punishing individual Nazi murderers is much better than
blaming the whole Lithuanian nation, just as punishing individual
Commie murderers is much better than blaming all Russians.
>Therefore, I do not support a very clear assertion by Mr. Holman that
>Lithuania has an established anti-jew tradition.
Me neither. The WWII Lithuanian record was far from glorious, but it
was not in any way a continuation of any previous tradition. I think
Eugene should rather look at the facts before making such sweeping
statements.
>Nowadays, Jews are part
>of Lithuanian community although a very small one. I am quite sure that
>the member of Parlament Emanuelis Zingeris was elected not only by Jews
>but by other nationality voters in Kaunas district.
Here I wouldn't be so enthusiastic. Zingeris got the votes not because
he was Jewish, but because he's part of Landsbergis's political
machine (which might actually use him to improve its image abroad). I
didn't and wouldn't vote for him. By the way, wasn't he elected from
the [Conservative] party list rather than by direct vote for him? (I
really don't rememeber).
>To me it is very sad to see the actions of S.Wiesenthal center. In many
>cases, they just see the black and white, and make a very far reaching
>accusations. The saddess of that is that in many cases this reminds
>accusations of the "Nation of Islam" leader Farrakhan, whos talks
>frequently sound like that: white people hurt black people by making them
>slaves, now even though the situation is completely different (e.g.
>affirmative action), they still should be paying for this, and we shoud
>retaliate.
If we want to go on, we'd better all have more forgiveness and less
retaliation. Anyway, most of the murderers (both Nazi and Commie) are
dead by now. Why can't we start cleaning up the mess they've left
behind, instead of endlessly blaming one another for our grandfathers'
sins?
Yours, Igor
Vladimir Svetlov
<miro...@home.se> wrote:
: Firstly Mr.Svetlov, your original post speaks volumes for itself.
But as far as you are concerned, all its eloquence had fallen on the deaf
ears (bad eyes or dumb brains).
: Secondly, your answer to my post speaks even more for itself.
It is supposed to speak for itself, is it not? You surely do not expect me
to trust such a mumbling loone like yourself to speak for it?
: Instead of getting personal, stop spreading xenophobic filth,
As far as xenophoby is concerned I play as but a mirror to my lithuanian
brothers. But, pray, tell me, Mr. Goldberg, which part of the "article"
about Russians did you find so offensive that you decided to respond in
public? You see, at the time this material was in the works I had an
alternative idea - to besmear the ethnic portrait of Russians only, whereas
painting both Lithuanians and Jews as superior Nordic types (likes of Mr.
Streltsov). But then, of course, I'd deprive myself of the honor of your
response...
: pretending to be a super-intellectual super-libertarian.
: You are NOT !!!
Of course, I'm neither of these. I have a feeling that you do not clearly
understand the meaning of the term "libertarian", nevertheless, I must
state for the record that I never have been particularly sympathetic to
this political movement. Of all political labels bestowed on me I proudly
claim only one - the title of "god-damned anarcho-syndicalist" (per Party
Czar of College of Biology, Moscow State, Comrade Aslanian). Now to the
question of the super-intellectualism. You see, Mr. Goldberg, as long as I
can remember I always have been blessed by acquiantances of remarkable
intellectual prowess; thus in comparison I always think of myself as a
person of rather average intellect. If any semblance of super-intellectual
should somehow arise, that's only because of the scale suddenly being
skewed by an intellectual midget like yourself.
Regards,
Maris Ozols
>In article <01bdad37$3858eb80$94f343c3@a>, "Miroslav Goldberg"
><miro...@home.se> wrote:
>
>: pretending to be a super-intellectual super-libertarian.
>: You are NOT !!!
>
>Of course, I'm neither of these. I have a feeling that you do not clearly
>understand the meaning of the term "libertarian", nevertheless, I must
>state for the record that I never have been particularly sympathetic to
>this political movement.
I'm not sure how far libertarians can be considered a political
movement Vladimir since they encompass both anarchists and right wing
radicals, atl least, here in the UK in the mid eighties as was.
Maris
Vladimir Svetlov
: I'm not sure how far libertarians can be considered a political
: movement Vladimir since they encompass both anarchists and right wing
: radicals, atl least, here in the UK in the mid eighties as was.
I'd love to be there in UK, Maris, but alas, the biggest chunks of money
for the science and the frightening fashion of having at least one Russian
per department, are right here in States. Libertarianism here took a form
of a party, that has been utterly insuccessful on presidential or
governatorial elections, but actually scored some points in the lower level
political races. It's platform is predictably that of right radicalism,
rather than anything else, excepting those most right wing republicans like
Buchanan - they all converge on the same picture of a stately white
gentleman sitting in front of the three car garage with Minimi machine gun,
yelling at federal tax collectors, while his always pregnant wife teaches
his 10 kids to read using announcements of the next book burning.
Regards,
V.
halm...@msn.com
sve...@oncology.wisc.edu (Vladimir Svetlov) wrote:
> In article <35aa7ad1...@news.dircon.co.uk>, de...@pobox.com* wrote:
>
> : I'm not sure how far libertarians can be considered a political
> : movement Vladimir since they encompass both anarchists and right wing
> : radicals, atl least, here in the UK in the mid eighties as was.
>
> I'd love to be there in UK, Maris, but alas, the biggest chunks of money
> for the science and the frightening fashion of having at least one Russian
> per department, are right here in States. Libertarianism here took a form
> of a party, that has been utterly insuccessful on presidential or
> governatorial elections, but actually scored some points in the lower level
> political races. It's platform is predictably that of right radicalism,
> rather than anything else, excepting those most right wing republicans like
> Buchanan - they all converge on the same picture of a stately white
> gentleman sitting in front of the three car garage with Minimi machine gun,
> yelling at federal tax collectors, while his always pregnant wife teaches
> his 10 kids to read using announcements of the next book burning.
>
> Regards,
>
> V.
>
Piotr Trela
I am another "other". Tell me which was the hilarious part of his
response to Miroslav:
>Miroslav, I'm afraid that ne ponyal ty v pesne, uvy, ne h... (DDT). In
>other (English) words, my post went completely over your head. Since
>Viagra for the heads is not yet available, try next time to climb on the
>top of the box of diapers. Not that it would bring you at the level, but
>you may fall of it and amuse your babysitter."
Would this be "Viagra for the heads" or, perhaps, "the box of diapers"?
Ha ha ?
Piotr Trela
P.S. I found the humour of his original article (how to tell a Russian, a
Jew ...) equally tiresome and, unless Mr Svetlov is a Lithuanian
ridiculing chauvinism of some of his compatriots, a bit disingenious.
His later description of libertarians was (mildly) amusing,
(although I think I have heard something similiar before...)
Vladimir Svetlov
> Miroslav,
>
> I believe you have not understood what Mikhail Svetlov wrote. He
> summarized
> in the critical and yet peculiar form all the "ethnical hatred clishes"
> directed towards Russians and Jews, that you can hear every day in the
> western parta of the Former SU. His post was anti-hatred and
> anti-faschist.
> I think you grossly misunderstood him.
Finally, somebody whose braincase is not filled with stale oatmeal spoke
out. I started worrying that my audience was limited to Mr. Goldberg alone.
Elsewhere on s.c.r. I already cited Monty Python (recall their famous
Prejudice Show or Graham's "Tell them we are Jews!" to the wards of museum
in Dachau, that would not let them in after hours) and less known Onion
(Madison own newspaper featuring headlines like "Chinese mother gives birth
to septaplets, have till tomorrow to choose one", taking a shot at Chinese
birth control practices and American adulation of that Iowan septaplets at
the same time). BTW, Onion is available on the net.
As far as the reality of those images, it is not confined to the FSU alone.
Image of the red-nosed badly dressed Russian bootleggers was rather
prominent on Finnish TV - at least 5 years ago. Here in States one does not
have to go further than Southern states to see cartoons of Jews just like
the one I described in my post, glued to the lamp posts. I recall that in
my son's school back in TN the principal tired of complains about conflicts
between Christmas and Hanukka, asked her Jewish petitioner-parents "If you
don't like our holidays why don't you all go somewhere else and set-up your
own school?!" After intervention by the ACLU they eventually came up with a
joint Hanukka-Kwanzaa celebration, for all non-whites I guess. And it was
no one alse but Mr. Henry (halminas@...), who mused about somebody bringing
me, a transparent from my sig Russian, into US, "cleaning" me up, buying me
books etc. If nothing else, it shows that those images do not originate
with me.
I'm not PC, sorry, and like nothing better than jokes in bad taste and
"over the limit". Especially, if that's the limit established by likes of
Mr. Goldberg.
Regards,
V.
--
Vladimir Svetlov, Ph. D.
McArdle Lab for Cancer Research
UW-Madison
1400 University Ave.
Madison, WI 53705
Vladimir Svetlov
<miro...@home.se> wrote:
> Actually, I did not misunderstand Mr. Svetlov's posts.
Assuming that it's true, and you did get the idea of the post in question,
who then is that unfortunate you place below yourself on the intellectual
ladder, that would not get it? So far at least three people read the post
and everybody incl. you seem to understand what's it was all about - so
what's the problem?!
A nice opening for ad hominem attack, but I'll let it go at this point...
Cheers,
Vladimir Svetlov
<Pine.HPP.3.91.980713...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de>,
"L.Gordeev" <iik...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
> By all due respect, stranger, I bet you're the only "others" around.
> I appreciate Mr. Svetlov's humorous aberration from otherwise pretty
> boring politprop in s.c.b., s.c.p. and s.c.r..
Some would call it perversion, but I have to vent my homicidal tendencies
somehow, right? Thank you for your support and rest assured that future
postings will not let you down - they'd be 30% more humorous and twice as
aberrant for the same low price.
Regards,
zaga...@mail.stcc.mass.edu
> > I'd love to be there in UK, Maris, but alas, the biggest chunks of money
> > for the science and the frightening fashion of having at least one Russian
> > per department, are right here in States. Libertarianism here took a form
> > of a party, that has been utterly insuccessful on presidential or
> > governatorial elections, but actually scored some points in the lower level
> > political races. It's platform is predictably that of right radicalism,
> > rather than anything else, excepting those most right wing republicans like
> > Buchanan - they all converge on the same picture of a stately white
> > gentleman sitting in front of the three car garage with Minimi machine gun,
> > yelling at federal tax collectors, while his always pregnant wife teaches
> > his 10 kids to read using announcements of the next book burning.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > V.
> >
> Does this pass for humor in the great motherland?
> Best - - Henry
actually i thought it was very funny
zagarins
Igor Sagdeev
>prominent on Finnish TV - at least 5 years ago. Here in States one does not
>have to go further than Southern states to see cartoons of Jews just like
>the one I described in my post, glued to the lamp posts. I recall that in
Dear Dr. Svetlov,
Can you please direct me to a lamppost featuring any such cartoon? I'm
yet to see one - after 5 years in the South.
Yours, Igor
Vladimir Svetlov
wrote:
> Dear Dr. Svetlov,
>
> Can you please direct me to a lamppost featuring any such cartoon? I'm
> yet to see one - after 5 years in the South.
Try Alabama or Lousianna first. My last year in TN I was subrenting a room
next door to an Aryan redneck, who discovered that spreading Negro cartoons
in Memphis is nothing but trouble, while anti-Jewish ones are as popular
among nation of Islam supporters as among white supremacists. So he
regularly adorned the neighbourhood with such cartoons as well as with
pamplets about sionist conspiracy etc. I'm afraid I did not save one for
you - did not know it would come handy, but I'm sure you can order some on
the net for yourself. You do not explanation as to what Nation of Islam and
KKK or Aryan Nation are, do you? I must say, however, that the fresh wind
from the South reaches even MidSouth, as KKK recently rallied in some
proletarian townships of Wisconsin and Iowa. I've ran into one of such
parties while fossil hunting on the weekend - mostly southern cadre (by
accent), but quite a few local rednecks too. Now, do not tell me you have
not seen a redneck after 5 years in South - with a rifle in the cabin of
the track, rebel flag and sticker "welcome to the South, now go home"? If
you have not, i strongly advise you to spend the next 5 years with your
eyes open.
Miroslav Goldberg
[...]
> ...with a rifle in the cabin of the track...
Mr.Svetlov:
What's that "cabin of the track" stuff?
Look up "cabin" and "track" in the dictionary.
The may have to do with rednecks, but not the ones
brandishing rifles in the streets of the South,
rather the secluded kind. :-)
If you meant "cab of the truck" why didn't you write so? :-)
Miroslav
Kastytis Beitas
Mike Davidchik wrote:
> There is a big distance between anti-semiticism and wanting to murder all
> of the Jews. The latter was specific to the German Nazis. You can hardly
> say that the Catholic Church would have had any influence over
> anti-semiticism in Lativa and Estonia. Why did most of the Jews prefer to
> live in Catholic Lithuania than Protestant Latvia-Estonia? Why did they
> preferred to live in Poland, Belarus, or the Ukraine, over Great Russia?
>
I don't have reference book by hand, but as I remember there was such thing as
'cherta osedlosti' ('border of setlement') in tsarist Russia. In large part of
Russia there were strict regulations about Jews' rights to buy farms in rural
regions and to some professions. This 'cherta osedlosti' was a cause for large
concentration of Jews in the Ukraine, Belarus, Poland and Lithuania. And the
professional prohibitions restricted Jews to become farmers or land-holders
('pomeshchiks').
Between WWI and WWII Jews' lives hadn't changed much in West Ukraine, Poland,
Lithuania.
I can't guarantee the correct information about this 'cherta osedlosti' and Jews
matter. You must search more special reference books.
K.
Igor Sagdeev
> I don't have reference book by hand, but as I remember there was such thing as
>'cherta osedlosti' ('border of setlement') in tsarist Russia. In large part of
Yes, it's known in English as "The Pale". It mostly coincided
geographically with the territories of the old Polish-Lithuanian
Commonwealth (Rzeczpospolita), although at some times it also included
some territories in the South of Russia.
Some Jews, most notably merchants and professionals, could live
outside the Pale, but most of them were confined to it.
Yours, Igor
Piotr Trela
: In article <01bdadfd$e2909820$0100007f@a>, "Miroslav Goldberg"
: > Actually, I did not misunderstand Mr. Svetlov's posts.
: Assuming that it's true, and you did get the idea of the post in question,
: who then is that unfortunate you place below yourself on the intellectual
: ladder, that would not get it? So far at least three people read the post
: and everybody incl. you seem to understand what's it was all about - so
: what's the problem?!
Determining the truth through comparing the numbers for and against
is a bit risky. "Let's eat shit. A billion of flies cannot be wrong".
: A nice opening for ad hominem attack, but I'll let it go at this point...
How generous of you...
I guess your previous description of Mr Goldberg as a "braincase filled
with stale oatmil", and suggestions that he could use some "Viagra for the
heads" and should "climb on the box of diapers" were not ad hominem
attacks, but constructive comments.
: Vladimir Svetlov, Ph. D.
Piotr Trela
RAVA
bet, kad rasote i "soc.culture.balts" - tai jau ne "balts", - bet Jusu
k-u-l-t-u-r-o-s problema.
Negaleciau be pagarbos,
Robertas Cerskus
Maris Ozols
I think the expression 'beyond the Pale' refers to Ireland, as far as
I remember from history lessons as a lad.
Alexander Sharon
Maris Ozols wrote:
> sag...@mindspring.com (Igor Sagdeev) wrote:
>
> >Kastytis Beitas <kastyti...@gf.vu.lt> wrote:
> >
> >> I don't have reference book by hand, but as I remember there was such thing as
> >>'cherta osedlosti' ('border of setlement') in tsarist Russia. In large part of
> >
> >Yes, it's known in English as "The Pale". It mostly coincided
> >geographically with the territories of the old Polish-Lithuanian
> >Commonwealth (Rzeczpospolita), although at some times it also included
> >some territories in the South of Russia.
> >
> >Some Jews, most notably merchants and professionals, could live
> >outside the Pale, but most of them were confined to it.
> >
> > Yours, Igor
>
> I think the expression 'beyond the Pale' refers to Ireland, as far as
> I remember from history lessons as a lad.
>
> Maris
>
>
The correct definition of the discussed area is the "Pale of Settlement".
By the three partitions of Poland (1772, 1793 and 1795), the Russian Empire which had
hitherto refused to admit Jews at all, acquired a million of them as aresult of the
territorial greed. It now gave them rights of residence but only within the Pale of
Settlement, where their numbers, poverty and disabilities all increased rapidly.
Alexander Sharon
an_on...@my-dejanews.com
de...@pobox.com* wrote:
> sag...@mindspring.com (Igor Sagdeev) wrote:
>
> >Kastytis Beitas <kastyti...@gf.vu.lt> wrote:
> >
> >> I don't have reference book by hand, but as I remember there was such
thing as
> >>'cherta osedlosti' ('border of setlement') in tsarist Russia. In large part
of
> >
> >Yes, it's known in English as "The Pale". It mostly coincided
> >geographically with the territories of the old Polish-Lithuanian
> >Commonwealth (Rzeczpospolita), although at some times it also included
> >some territories in the South of Russia.
> >
> >Some Jews, most notably merchants and professionals, could live
> >outside the Pale, but most of them were confined to it.
> >
> > Yours, Igor
>
> I think the expression 'beyond the Pale' refers to Ireland, as far as
> I remember from history lessons as a lad.
>
> Maris
>
You're right about that; the Pale was the (gradually growing) area around
Dublin controlled by the English (and the Vikings before them), if my memory
serves me right. However, for lack of a better translation, I guess, this is
also the term used in English for the Russian term as described by Mr. Beitas
above.
-- Max
Vladimir Svetlov
<miro...@home.se> wrote:
Spelling is the logic of the dumb. Nothing screams louder the defeat of the
argument than going after errors of spelling in your opponent's writing.
Never understood this urge, as people provide me with inexhaustable supply
of logical fallacies and factual mistakes, but I guess it'll have to do for
the little folk...
Anyway, Mr. Goldberg, by delighting yourself with corrections to my
spelling, you have created even more confusion. You see, only one word -
the "track" was misspelled and has to be replaced by the word "truck". The
term "cabin" as the passenger or cargo compartment in the plane or a
vehicle is perfectly fine in such expression as the "cabin of the truck".
Moreover, in spoken American-English the word "cab" (short for both cabin
and cabriolet) is almost exclusively used to designate the taxi-cab. Thus,
while "cabin of the track" is an obvious mistake with transparent meaning,
the expression "cab of the truck" does not make much sense at all. But
thanks for playing anyway.
Vladimir Svetlov
(Piotr Trela) wrote:
snip
> I am another "other". Tell me which was the hilarious part of his
> response to Miroslav:
Dear Piotr, the "others" as it was pretty obvious from the Mr. Goldberg,
are those who would take my original mockery as a genuine anti-Russian and
anti-Semitic post. This criterion has nothing to do with "hilarity" of my
response to Miroslav's outcry.
> P.S. I found the humour of his original article (how to tell a Russian, a
> Jew ...) equally tiresome
That's OK. As long as some find it amusing, and the others see annoyingly
accurate reflection of their own racial stereotypes, I can bear with tiring
a part of my, mind you, entirely voluntary audience.
> and, unless Mr Svetlov is a Lithuanian
> ridiculing chauvinism of some of his compatriots, a bit disingenious.
Why is that? I'll be the first (well, no later than fifth or sixth) to
applaud a Lithuanian ridiculing racist outbursts of his compatriots, but
they all seem to be too busy complaining about them dirty Russians. How
long you expect me to wait? Insiration, you know, is the most itchy muse...
BTW, are you Piotr, the student of thermodynamics, by any chance?
oyvay...@zhid.org
(Vladimir Svetlov) wrote:
>In article <6o0ntu$njm$2...@news1.bu.edu>, sim...@bu.edu (Simcha Streltsov) wrote:
>
>
>> in my experience, there always was anti-Russian sentiment in almost all
>> Lithuanian circles - some folks asociated [Russian-speaking] Jews with
>> Russians and did not like us
>
>I sorta knew it would come to that - anti-semitism as misplaced
>russophobia... Of course, if not for well deserved anti-Russian sentiment
>and some astigmatic Lithuaninas, there would be no anti-semitism among the
>Balts. So, in order to avert any future confusion like this one here it
>comes again, back by popular demand
>
>THE COMPLETE IDIOT'S GUIDE TO LOWER RACES, trans. from Aryan
>
> RUSSIANS - relatively large human-like mammals, pale in hue, may even
>reach the size of a real Lithianian. No discernable forehead, squinted
>Tartar eyes and big clumsy hands add to the above portrait of the average
>Russian. Prefers keeping in hordes, which are regularly being pushed out of
>Siberian taiga by something even more disgusting than Russians themselves
>(probably the savage dog-headed wood elves), outward in the direction of
>Europe. Thus every Lithuanian has to learn how to identify these animals in
>the wild and to know how to deal with migrating Russians en route.
>It was said that they can be as large as humans, but never quite so tall as
>their backs are always bent due to their inherent affection to slavery.
>Feed them on your own risk - as long as you feed the Russians they'll stay
>around and will disturb the peace and beauty of any imaginable local
>(except in Hell!). When fed, Russians fall asleep immediately, unless
>additionally intoxicated by alcohol - in the latter case they become
>restless and start shouting their songs that make the fog horn sound
>musical. Don't try to help Russians out of your area by giving them
>directions - they have no understanding of geography and only get confused
>by words like "right" and "left". In some areas giving Russians the wrong
>directions has become a local tradition and a source of endless (albeit
>somewhat rustic) amusement. As you've guessed, Russians can sometimes mimic
>the human speech, but have no real understanding of it. Their own
>communication system is no more pleasant to a refined listener than the
>sound of a chainsaw cutting through a live pig. Pay no attention to it, it
>is not meant to deliver any more information than the interior of the milk
>carton.
>It's easy to handle Russians if you remember that the brute force and
>natural command quality of the superior human race are the only things that
>Russians take a notice of. A five year old child of a Lithuanian mother has
>enough power in him to send a dozen of Russians packing. Raise the voice
>and they run scared, back to the protective shadow of the woods. Edibility
>- edible with Russian Dressing from Kraft Foods.
>
> JEWS - smaller than Russians (next to a Lithuanian a Jew appears like
>nothing but a dwarf) and more dark-skinned. Bid deceiving eyes, huge nose
>pointing downward, long worm-like fingers trembling with greed will shout
>"A JEW!" right at you. Unlike Russians, Jew don't form hordes; instead they
>live in families where old Jews teach the young one the secrets of lying
>and cheating. Jews are much smarter than Russians (oh, like that's a big
>achievement) and much harder to get rid off. No one knows where they came
>from or where they will go, when they go away. A Jew would not be a match
>for a fair Lithuanian lad in any sport, but they often get ahead whereever
>their cheating, lying and stealing goes unnoticed. Even Russians don't like
>the Jews, not through systematic analysis and weighted judgement, like
>Lithuanians, but through some native, druid-like gut feeling of the wild
>wood dwellers. Jews never have pets of their own - unlike Russians, who
>drag around their udly bastards of dogs and cats everywhere they set their
>own dirty feet, Jews detest sharing their quarters with any living being
>other than themselves. Or maybe it's the living that are keeping away from
>these creepy bloodsuckers. Edibility - don't bother.
>
>The full text of this very useful and good-humored manual will be available
>in the fall from Mein Kampf Publishing House in Vilnus. It will also cover
>such important subjects as "33 ways to get rid of the Gypsies and their
>eggs", "Midgets - small people or big bugs?", "There is a Russian on my
>bus!", "Odor management for a Jew-slayer", "I did not know Russians ate my
>newspapers untill I called my psychic", "What you do not know about the
>Jews may make your daughter marry one of them" and many more.
>
>For entertainment purpose only.
keng...@nazikor.zhid.orgy
koy...@nazikor.orgy
kenm...@in.vino.veritas.lies
Amazons
we are not interested in your antisemitism and hate mongering.
If you knew your Bible, you would know that the Jews will one day
accept Christ when Jesus returns. Christ commanded us to love all
people and all nations including the Jews. Jesus forgave the Romans
and Jews so repent of your hate and stop your hate mongering.