Aslan Maskhadov, 1951-2005
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
The legitimate President of Ichkeria, Aslan Maskhadov, has reportedly been
killed by Russian troops in Tolstoy-Yurt, north of Grozny.
Vieglas smiltis.
/P
lora...@cs.com
If true, another martyr for his people... one of too many Chechen
martyrs.
Proving, ultimately, that he wasn't safely enscounced in some western
hideout (contrary to much disinformation seen here)- but rather
fighting for his country.
His death also proving that deadly hypocracy and international genocide
can safely continue to grind on in 21st century euro-politics.
It's such a shame.
Uno Hu
MirTopolskiRexPrez
> Pēteris Cedriņš wrote:
>> The legitimate President of Ichkeria, Aslan Maskhadov, has reportedly
>> been killed by Russian troops in Tolstoy-Yurt, north of Grozny.
> martyrs.
Allah is great. His martyrs will have great time in Allah's evergreen
garden ... not sure about Saddam's sons and grandson, though ...
henry alminas
<lora...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:1110307244.1...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Uno Hu
Just russkies - doing what they do best - murdering.
Best - - Henry
Alex
Pçteris Cedriòð (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
Here is the body;
http://www.lenta.ru/news/2005/03/08/body/
Rest in hell bastard! Basayev is next, I hope.
So dear Peteris when will the street be named after him?
Alex.
Alex
MirTopolskiRexPrez wrote:
> lora...@cs.com wrote:
> > Pçteris Cedriòð wrote:
> >> The legitimate President of Ichkeria, Aslan Maskhadov, has
reportedly
> >> been killed by Russian troops in Tolstoy-Yurt, north of Grozny.
> > If true, another martyr for his people... one of too many Chechen
> > martyrs.
>
> Allah is great. His martyrs will have great time in Allah's evergreen
> garden ... not sure about Saddam's sons and grandson, though ...
>
What no double standards, as usual? I'm shocked.
Alex.
Alex
henry alminas wrote:
> <lora...@cs.com> wrote in message
> news:1110307244.1...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> Pçteris Cedriòð (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
> > The legitimate President of Ichkeria, Aslan Maskhadov, has
reportedly
> been
> > killed by Russian troops in Tolstoy-Yurt, north of Grozny.
> >
> > Vieglas smiltis.
> > /P
>
> If true, another martyr for his people... one of too many Chechen
> martyrs.
> Proving, ultimately, that he wasn't safely enscounced in some western
> hideout (contrary to much disinformation seen here)- but rather
> fighting for his country.
>
> His death also proving that deadly hypocracy and international
genocide
> can safely continue to grind on in 21st century euro-politics.
>
> It's such a shame.
>
> Uno Hu
>
> Just russkies - doing what they do best - murdering.
>
> Best - - Henry
No no no, Russians are second best! After USA.
Alex.
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
news:1110315560....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
> So dear Peteris when will the street be named after him?
I don't know, dear Alex -- hopefully very soon in a free Ichkeria. But I
can tell you that my kavkazskaya ovcharka is called Shamil.
/P
P.S. Did you get my (rather lengthy) response to your last post on the
hoped for dissolution of your empire oops federation? It didn't propagate
to Google for some reason...
Captain!
"Alex" <Alex...@blackcity.net> wrote in message
news:1110315560....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Here is the body;
http://www.lenta.ru/news/2005/03/08/body/
Alex.
so i heard his bodyguard killed him by accident or something. what do you
know about it?
Dmitry
henry alminas wrote:
> <lora...@cs.com> wrote in message
> news:1110307244.1...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> > The legitimate President of Ichkeria, Aslan Maskhadov, has
reportedly
> been
> > killed by Russian troops in Tolstoy-Yurt, north of Grozny.
> >
> > Vieglas smiltis.
> > /P
>
> If true, another martyr for his people... one of too many Chechen
> martyrs.
> Proving, ultimately, that he wasn't safely enscounced in some western
> hideout (contrary to much disinformation seen here)- but rather
> fighting for his country.
>
> His death also proving that deadly hypocracy and international
genocide
> can safely continue to grind on in 21st century euro-politics.
>
> It's such a shame.
>
> Uno Hu
>
> Just russkies - doing what they do best - murdering.
You have also forgotten to mention how many were murdered by Americans
in recent American wars and never disclosed who you voted for in your
last elections. Reading Pravda can't be an excuse for ignorance.
>
> Best - - Henry
Alex
Pçteris Cedriòð (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
> "Alex" <Alex...@blackcity.net> rakstîja ziòojumâ
> news:1110315560....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
>
> > So dear Peteris when will the street be named after him?
>
> I don't know, dear Alex -- hopefully very soon in a free Ichkeria.
But I
> can tell you that my kavkazskaya ovcharka is called Shamil.
>
Shamil' after Basayev or original "Shamil" from 1800s?
> /P
>
> P.S. Did you get my (rather lengthy) response to your last post on
the
> hoped for dissolution of your empire oops federation? It didn't
propagate
> to Google for some reason...
No. I guess it didn't make it to google, if you still have that
response, send it to Alex...@blackcity.net see 78 not 79.
Alex.
Alex
Captain! wrote:
> "Alex" <Alex...@blackcity.net> wrote in message
> news:1110315560....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> Pçteris Cedriòð (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
> > The legitimate President of Ichkeria, Aslan Maskhadov, has
reportedly
> been
> > killed by Russian troops in Tolstoy-Yurt, north of Grozny.
> >
> > Vieglas smiltis.
> >
> > /P
>
> Here is the body;
>
> http://www.lenta.ru/news/2005/03/08/body/
>
>
> Rest in hell bastard! Basayev is next, I hope.
>
> So dear Peteris when will the street be named after him?
>
>
>
> Alex.
>
> so i heard his bodyguard killed him by accident or something. what do
you
> know about it?
Yeah its one of the theories, looks like he got a bullet right in eye.
Alex.
Dmitry
Pçteris Cedriòð (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
> news:1110315560....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
>
> > So dear Peteris when will the street be named after him?
>
> I don't know, dear Alex -- hopefully very soon in a free Ichkeria.
But I
> can tell you that my kavkazskaya ovcharka is called Shamil.
Alex's comment could be to do with the street in Riiga named after
Soviet general who triggered the war in Chechnya.
>
> /P
>
> P.S. Did you get my (rather lengthy) response to your last post on
the
> hoped for dissolution of your empire oops federation? It didn't
propagate
> to Google for some reason...
That was an interesting discussion..... Some time ago Eugene expressed
his wish for Russia to split into separate countries.
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
news:1110318522.2...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
> Alex's comment could be to do with the street in Riiga named after
> Soviet general who triggered the war in Chechnya.
>
I realize that he meant Kosmonautikas gatve, renamed for the Chechen
freedom fighter who refused to kill Estonians -- I thought I gave an
appropriate response...
Alex -- Imam Shamil from the 19th C. I'm not sure if that's understood in
the park, though...
Sending the post to your address.
Vsego horoshego,
/P
Eugene Holman
"Dmitry" <klapka...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> P=E7teris Cedri=F2=F0 (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
> > "Alex" <Alex...@blackcity.net> rakst=EEja zi=F2ojum=E2
> > news:1110315560....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
> >
> > > So dear Peteris when will the street be named after him?
> >
> > I don't know, dear Alex -- hopefully very soon in a free Ichkeria.
> But I
> > can tell you that my kavkazskaya ovcharka is called Shamil.
>
> Alex's comment could be to do with the street in Riiga named after
> Soviet general who triggered the war in Chechnya.
>
> >
> > /P
> >
> > P.S. Did you get my (rather lengthy) response to your last post on
> the
> > hoped for dissolution of your empire oops federation? It didn't
> propagate
> > to Google for some reason...
>
> That was an interesting discussion..... Some time ago Eugene expressed
> his wish for Russia to split into separate countries.
Correct. Not out of dislike or disrespect for Russia, but out of an
understanding that a country that size with a dwindling population and
overpopulated neighbors is eventually going to have to deal with the
sobering contradiction between its huge territory and unparalleled wealth
in natural resources, and the increasingly limited human resources
available to defend it.
I would suggest an initial split into European Russia and Siberia.
European Russia would go the industrialist and post-industrialist
value-added and services-oriented path, eventually associciating itself
with the EU and becoming the largest, if not necessarily the most
influential, country in Europe. Siberia, the part of Russia presently east
of the Urals, would be the world's major exporter of raw materials and a
builder of futuristic underground or domed cities and infrastructure where
people, many of them young and ambitious immigrants from poorer countries
with large populations, could extract oil or mine for gold, platinum, or
diamonds when the weather outside is -50° C.
Of course it is impolite of me to suggest future scenarios for other
people's split-up countries. But, given the realities in eastern Asia,
where Russia lays claim to vast tracts of land, but will have a population
smaller than Japan's and ten times smaller than China's by 2020 if current
demographic trends continue, these ideas have to be considered.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Dmitry
Pçteris Cedriòð (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
> news:1110318522.2...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Alex's comment could be to do with the street in Riiga named after
> > Soviet general who triggered the war in Chechnya.
> >
>
> I realize that he meant Kosmonautikas gatve, renamed for the Chechen
> freedom fighter who refused to kill Estonians
Are we talking about Dudajev? I don't know about his refusal to kill
Estonians, but wouldn't mind to learn about it. I must admit, I am
skeptical about military people and their claims regarding fighting for
freedom. Most of them care about their own enterprises making money at
the expense of civilian lives and their welfare. I would also question
why Dudajev pursued his career in Soviet military, not to do with
freedom I guess. Freedom fighter definition can be twisted to suit
individual beliefs.
> -- I thought I gave an
> appropriate response...
I must have missed it.
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
You might find "Chechnya: An Honorary Baltic State" by Mel Huang worth
reading --
http://www.ce-review.org/99/24/amber24.html
Vsego horoshego,
/P
Dmitry
It's up to Russians, although I agree with your thought on this matter,
what the future of their country will be. My hope is that Latvia will
part with corruption and other legasies generated by Soviet rule and
Latvian citizens will enjoy the benefits that democracy can offer.
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
Suffering from insomnia, I came across a fine site about Chechnya -- and
this excellent article, which turns out to be translated by David McDuff --
http://watchdog.cz/?show=000000-000015-000006-000011&lang=1
/P
«Pas de deux»
idealist and made sacrifices for what he believed in.
You could only pray to be 1% of the man and person that he was.
Jed govno, kurvy syn.
GK
"Alex" <Alex...@blackcity.net> wrote in message
news:1110315560....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Alex
«Pas de deux» wrote:
What? Cyber drinking with Henry again? Maskhadov was killed not Basayev
(yet)
Alex.
> You are a low-life bottom-feeder, Aleksej. Basajev was a patriot and
an
> idealist and made sacrifices for what he believed in.
>
> You could only pray to be 1% of the man and person that he was.
>
> Jed govno, kurvy syn.
>
> GK
>
>
> "Alex" <Alex...@blackcity.net> wrote in message
> news:1110315560....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
>
Alex
Pçteris Cedriòð (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
> "Dmitry" <klapka...@yahoo.co.uk> rakstîja ziòojumâ
> news:1110318522.2...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Alex's comment could be to do with the street in Riiga named after
> > Soviet general who triggered the war in Chechnya.
> >
>
> I realize that he meant Kosmonautikas gatve, renamed for the Chechen
> freedom fighter who refused to kill Estonians -- I thought I gave an
> appropriate response...
Dudayev refused to kill Estonians? A Myth nothing more. He never had a
chance. Whoever fights Russians, is a hero to some people, I guess.
>
> Alex -- Imam Shamil from the 19th C. I'm not sure if that's
understood in
> the park, though...
Sure local Russians probably thinking that Shamil Basayev is terrorist
but don't some Latvians consider his freedom fighter as well?
Alex.
Vladimir Makarenko
Captain! wrote:
Two rumors are: first that his bodyguard accidentally shoot him, the
second that Kadyrov's people shot him. The second is rather doubtful
because at least oficially no Kadyrov people were around, only Russian
speznaz.
The first rumor maybe true as Moscow wanted him alive for information.
And there was no shoot out during the operation, he was the only person
to get killed on both sides.
VM.
>
>
Vladimir Makarenko
Dmitry wrote:
> Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
>
>>"Dmitry" <klapka...@yahoo.co.uk> rakstīja ziņojumā
>>news:1110318522.2...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>
>>>Alex's comment could be to do with the street in Riiga named after
>>>Soviet general who triggered the war in Chechnya.
>>>
>>
>>I realize that he meant Kosmonautikas gatve, renamed for the Chechen
>>freedom fighter who refused to kill Estonians
>
>
> Are we talking about Dudajev? I don't know about his refusal to kill
> Estonians, but wouldn't mind to learn about it.
Try and learn how the "freedom fighter" earned his Lenin award and Hero
of Soviet Union. And of course about Estonians it's another shitty
Baltic myth.
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
Eugene Holman wrote:
> In article <1110318522.2...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> "Dmitry" <klapka...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>P=E7teris Cedri=F2=F0 (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
>>
>>>"Alex" <Alex...@blackcity.net> rakst=EEja zi=F2ojum=E2
>>>news:1110315560....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
>>>
>>>
>>>>So dear Peteris when will the street be named after him?
>>>
>>>I don't know, dear Alex -- hopefully very soon in a free Ichkeria.
>>
>>But I
>>
>>>can tell you that my kavkazskaya ovcharka is called Shamil.
>>
>>Alex's comment could be to do with the street in Riiga named after
>>Soviet general who triggered the war in Chechnya.
>>
>>
>>>/P
>>>
>>>P.S. Did you get my (rather lengthy) response to your last post on
>>
>>the
>>
>>>hoped for dissolution of your empire oops federation? It didn't
>>
>>propagate
>>
>>>to Google for some reason...
>>
>>That was an interesting discussion..... Some time ago Eugene expressed
>>his wish for Russia to split into separate countries.
>
>
> Correct. Not out of dislike or disrespect for Russia, but out of an
> understanding that a country that size with a dwindling population and
> overpopulated neighbors
China is overpopulated? Just take a calculator and make some simple
operations. Who else?
is eventually going to have to deal with the
> sobering contradiction between its huge territory and unparalleled wealth
> in natural resources, and the increasingly limited human resources
> available to defend it.
Absurd. A few tens of nukes enough to do this. Russia has thousands.
Remember Dr. Strangelove?
>
> I would suggest an initial split into European Russia and Siberia.
First start splitting your apartment and check account - much more
realistic.
> European Russia would go the industrialist and post-industrialist
> value-added and services-oriented path, eventually associciating itself
> with the EU and becoming the largest, if not necessarily the most
> influential, country in Europe. Siberia, the part of Russia presently east
> of the Urals, would be the world's major exporter of raw materials and a
> builder of futuristic underground or domed cities and infrastructure where
> people, many of them young and ambitious immigrants from poorer countries
> with large populations, could extract oil or mine for gold, platinum, or
> diamonds when the weather outside is -50° C.
Russia doesn't need immigrants to manage its wealth- it has a pool of
tens of mln of Russians, Ukranians, Belorussians in the geographical
neighborhood.
>
> Of course it is impolite of me to suggest future scenarios for other
> people's split-up countries.
I do not think it's impolite - it's usual impudent russophobic bullshit,
mostly born out of traditional EU's envy and greed for Russia's riches.
Well, "vidit oko, da zub ne meieut".
But, given the realities in eastern Asia,
> where Russia lays claim to vast tracts of land, but will have a population
> smaller than Japan's and ten times smaller than China's by 2020 if current
> demographic trends continue, these ideas have to be considered.
And a couple of centures ago there were no Russians in Siberia at all:
numbers are senseless out of context.
You suffer from mentality of small provincial country. Buy a dish.
Future belongs to SuperEmpires, as it always had, - don't you see what
is going on in front of your eyes?
VM.
>
> Regards,
> Eugene Holman
Vladimir Makarenko
Alex wrote:
>
> «Pas de deux» wrote:
>
> What? Cyber drinking with Henry again? Maskhadov was killed not Basayev
> (yet)
>
> Alex.
What you want from him - he wouldn't find Chechenya on a map, forget
about such nuances as who is who there. Plus you are probably right and
he is just drunk.
I guess Shamilka now is in a really shitty mood - writing's on the wall.
And he just got fourth (or fifth?) wife.
VM.
Eugene Holman
<maka...@popmail.med.nyu.edu> wrote:
> Eugene Holman wrote:
>
> > In article <1110318522.2...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> > "Dmitry" <klapka...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
<deletions>
> >>
> >>That was an interesting discussion..... Some time ago Eugene expressed
> >>his wish for Russia to split into separate countries.
> >
> >
> > Correct. Not out of dislike or disrespect for Russia, but out of an
> > understanding that a country that size with a dwindling population and
> > overpopulated neighbors
>
> China is overpopulated? Just take a calculator and make some simple
> operations. Who else?
A lot of China is desert and virtually uninhabitable. The Chinese coast is
one of the more overcrowded areas on earth.
> is eventually going to have to deal with the
> > sobering contradiction between its huge territory and unparalleled wealth
> > in natural resources, and the increasingly limited human resources
> > available to defend it.
>
> Absurd. A few tens of nukes enough to do this.
A few dozen nukes will kill people in addition to destroying resources and
living space, thus wiping out decades of work and investment. This brutish
"solutiuon" will also generate ill will and a desire to retaliate in kind.
Russians will eventually undertand that they lack the human or military
resources to ratain control over so much land.
> Russia has thousands. Remember Dr. Strangelove?
I most certainly do. The saddest or funniest thing about the film was
at the very end, when they were thinking of military options to ensure
against a mineshaft gap. Dr. Strangelove, sexually stimulated by this talk
of a new arms race and understanding that his position as chief of weapons
research will not become redundant, demonstrates his potency by standing
up and ejaculating "Mein Führer, I can walk!"
> > I would suggest an initial split into European Russia and Siberia.
>
> First start splitting your apartment and check account - much more
> realistic.
I am able to manage them as they are, thank you very much. Moscow, on the
other hand, has serious difficulties managing the territory that it has
now.
> > European Russia would go the industrialist and post-industrialist
> > value-added and services-oriented path, eventually associciating itself
> > with the EU and becoming the largest, if not necessarily the most
> > influential, country in Europe. Siberia, the part of Russia presently east
> > of the Urals, would be the world's major exporter of raw materials and a
> > builder of futuristic underground or domed cities and infrastructure where
> > people, many of them young and ambitious immigrants from poorer countries
> > with large populations, could extract oil or mine for gold, platinum, or
> > diamonds when the weather outside is -50° C.
>
> Russia doesn't need immigrants to manage its wealth- it has a pool of
> tens of mln of Russians, Ukranians, Belorussians in the geographical
> neighborhood.
Yes, fine as far as European Russia is concerned. How many of them would
be willing to relocate to Norilsk, Kamchatka, or Sakhalin? How many of
them drink themselves to death before reaching the age of fifty?
> > Of course it is impolite of me to suggest future scenarios for other
> > people's split-up countries.
>
> I do not think it's impolite - it's usual impudent russophobic bullshit,
> mostly born out of traditional EU's envy and greed for Russia's riches.
> Well, "vidit oko, da zub ne meieut".
Not Russophobia at all. Russia is a declining power that has managed to
piss off many of its neighbors. Japan's prime minister will probably not
be attending the ceremony in Moscow on May 9 because of Russian
intransigence about some islands snatched by the USSR during the last days
of WW II. Estonia, Latvia, Chechnya, Finland, and China are also not on
the best possible terms with Russia because of land unilaterally
appropriated by Russia or the USSR in the past. Russia will simply not
have the resources to hold on to everything it has a generation from now.
How it is to deal with this situation should be discussed today. There is
nothing impudent, russophobic, or taurocopric about pointing this out.
Russia is overextended, and the trend is for it to become even more
overextended in the future.
> But, given the realities in eastern Asia,
> > where Russia lays claim to vast tracts of land, but will have a population
> > smaller than Japan's and ten times smaller than China's by 2020 if current
> > demographic trends continue, these ideas have to be considered.
>
> And a couple of centures ago there were no Russians in Siberia at all:
> numbers are senseless out of context.
Agreed. A couple of centuries ago Russia was a developing empire and, as
far as Siberia was concerned, a modernizer and *Kulturträger*. Now Russia
is in decline, while three countries in the vicinity of its almost empty
Asian part, China, India, and Japan, will have far larger populations and
a need for *Lebensraum* and access to the resources in Siberia a
generation from now, while Russia will have many missiles but a declining
population and far too much territory to defend.
>
> You suffer from mentality of small provincial country. Buy a dish.
> Future belongs to SuperEmpires, as it always had, - don't you see what
> is going on in front of your eyes?
The future belongs to countries that are able to manage and defend their
territories efficiently. Russia has shown that it can't even deal
effectively with Chechnya except for by killing, bombing, and destroying.
Now that's a great way to manage your territory, infrastructure, and human
resources.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
Why don't you compare and contrast the responses between young people in
the Mel Huang article I linked to earlier, "Chechnya: An Honorary Baltic
State." It's a little dated, but it still offers a very illuminating
glimpse of differences in... hmm, cultures? An extract, for educational
purposes only:
The most startling difference of opinion can be seen in young people. The
public finally began to notice after a shocking revelation in the Estonian
daily Postimees on 11 November [1999], in which secondary-school graduates
from both Estonian-language and Russian-language schools were asked their
views on Chechnya.
Here are some examples of what Estonian-school graduates said:
"Does Russia have to occupy all of Chechnya to catch a few terrorists,
while many civilians are also killed in the war? Many villages have been
levelled to the ground, and huge caravans of refugees are awaiting their
fate at the border."
"Russians need this piece of land only for oil. They want to take it by
force and therefore kill and torture innocent people."
"This is not just Russia's internal affair. It is a war which will only
make Russia bolder, if it is successful, and then nothing can guarantee
Baltic independence any more."
"Chechens are right in any case, because in the contemporary world it
should be only natural that each nation decides on its own whether to be
independent or not."
"The fact that Chechens can be associated with a few terrorist acts
does not give Russia the right to annihilate the whole nation."
"Russia pokes its nose into things where it is not needed. Unless
measures are taken, World War III will probably break out soon."
"Chechnya has problems with Russia again. But who doesn't?"
And here a few comments from Russian-language secondary school graduates:
"If the problem of Chechnya cannot be solved peacefully, the enemy has
to be destroyed for good. Russia must act even more brutally!"
"For each Russian soldier killed or captured, one Chechen village must
be destroyed. Only this way can Russia maintain order and its integrity.
How long can one bullshit with Chechnya?!"
"If only Putin had not been dismissed, because he was the one who began
to lift Russia from its knees."
"There can be only one solution: level Chechnya to the ground, so that
there is no trace left of it, and kill all the people. That is cruel, but
war is cruel."
"There can be no state of Chechnya - this is land belonging to the
state of Russia, and Russia has the right to enforce order for normal
people to live peacefully."
"As soon as Chechnya secedes, it will immediately bring US troops to
its territory, and together they will demolish Russia. The whole of
Chechnya should be sent to hell so that everyone would learn how to behave
toward Russians."
"Russia has no right to wage a war under the pretext of bombing
terrorists so that peaceful villages are destroyed and civilians get
killed."
Most of the comments from the Russian-speaking graduates seem horrific and
brutal, but if one watches Russian TV, one sees that this very much
represents normal public opinion in the country. However, the last quote
does give some hope.
As long as the Balts view Chechnya as a small nation struggling for
independence against mighty Russia, there will be sympathy for its cause.
After all, the Balts have experienced what Chechnya is currently going
through.
Anton N. Mescheryakov
> The legitimate President of Ichkeria, Aslan Maskhadov, has reportedly been
> killed by Russian troops in Tolstoy-Yurt, north of Grozny.
>
> Vieglas smiltis.
>
> /P
I'm really glad FSB at last got him. One less to go. To be continued.
Eugene Holman
<halm...@comcast.net> wrote:
<deletions>
>
> Just russkies - doing what they do best - murdering.
Admit it, Henry. Americans would dance in the streets if they could
dispose of Usama bin-Ladin in a similar manner. Sadam Hussein is likely
to be terminated with extreme prejudice as well, even though he will be
given a show trial for crimes committed neither on American soil or
against Americans. And then there's that nasty little issue about his two
sons innocent of any crimes against Americans or on American soil
being killed execution style by invading American soldiers in their own
country.
Enjoy your hypocrisy,
Eugene Holman
MirTopolskiRexPrez
> Rest in hell bastard!
Not so. Check out this (straight form the horse's mouth in UTF-8):
http://gazeta.ru/firstplace.shtml
> «Это подарок всем женщинам Чечни к 8 марта», – сказал Кадыров про
> мертвого Масхадова.
> «Я со всей ответственностью заявляю, – продолжил Кадыров, – что подобная
> участь в самое ближайшее время ждет и Шамиля Басаева. Мы его выставим в
> центре Грозного на всеобщее обозрение». «Символично, что наш президент
> Ахмат-хаджи Кадыров геройски погиб в мужской праздник – День Победы, – в
> продолжение мысли Кадырова заявил министр внутренних дел республики
> Руслан Алханов. – А этот так называемый президент Ичкерии нашел свою
> смерть в сыром погребе в Международный женский день. К этому даже
> добавить нечего».
David McDuff
Holman) wrote:
>Americans would dance in the streets if they could
>dispose of Usama bin-Ladin in a similar manner.
Some moral equivalence here?
Let's not forget that Aslan Maskhadov was the ELECTED PRESIDENT of
Chechnya - in elections monitored by the OSCE.
Incidentally, there's a demonstration outside the Russian Embassy in
Pikk St, Tallinn, today at noon.
DM
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
news:1110341794....@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
> Dudayev refused to kill Estonians? A Myth nothing more. He never had a
> chance. Whoever fights Russians, is a hero to some people, I guess.
If it's a myth, the burden of proof is on you -- I'm afraid you disagree
with the _Encyclopaedia Brittanica_ and other reputable sources.
Perhaps you just have trouble reading, unlike Dudayev --
"At the entrance of the Barclay Hotel in the historic heart of Tartu, the
second city of the Baltic republic of Estonia, there is a new plaque made
of black marble. Its message is very simple: 'The first president of the
Chechen republic Ichkeria, General Dzhokhar Dudayev, worked in this house
from 1987 to 1991.'
"The words are repeated in Estonian, Chechen and English. They are not
written in Russian, the lingua franca of the former Soviet Union, of which
Estonia was a part until just 12 years ago.
"It is a sudden reminder of the sympathy felt for the independence struggle
of Chechnya in former parts of the Soviet empire. General Dudayev, killed
in 1996 in a Russian rocket attack, has a particular reputation in Estonia
as the Soviet airbase commander who ensured that his troops were not used
to suppress the local revolution during the years of perestroika."
http://www.sptimes.ru/archive/times/913/opinion/o_10746.htm
Encarta --
"Commanding a division of strategic bombers based near Tartu, Estonia,
Dudayev worked his way up to the rank of major general. At the age of 36,
Dudayev was the first Chechen to become a general. Dudayev learned Estonian
and showed great tolerance for Estonian nationalism when he ignored Soviet
orders to shut down the Estonian television and parliament. In 1990 his
division was withdrawn from Estonia and Dudayev returned to Groznyy, the
Chechen capital. Upon his return, Dudayev took charge of the National
Congress of the Chechen People's executive committee, a nationalist
opposition organization."
Joseph Enge --
"The commanding general of Raadi during the crucial years of 1987 to 1990
was Dzhakhar Dudayev. He later became Chechnya's first president in 1991.
General Dudayev refused Moscow's order to attack the pro-independence
movement in Estonia during the Singing Revolution. He instead ordered his
troops to stay in their barracks and allowed the Estonian national flag to
fly over the base. His actions prevented bloodshed in Estonia during those
touchy times and earned him a great deal of respect throughout the Baltics.
"Baltic sympathy for Chechen independence aspirations dates from these
events and continue despite Dudayev's death in April of 1996 when Russian
forces targeted him during the first Russian assault of Chechnya."
/P
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
ziņojumā news:1110362476.295b0cebf80631e81ccca304afc00a9a@teranews:
_Britannica_.
MirTopolskiRexPrez
> Dudayev worked his way up to the rank of major general. At the age of 36,
> Dudayev was the first Chechen to become a general. Dudayev learned Estonian
> and showed great tolerance for Estonian nationalism when he ignored Soviet
> orders to shut down the Estonian television and parliament. In 1990 his
> division was withdrawn from Estonia and Dudayev returned to Groznyy, the
> Chechen capital. Upon his return, Dudayev took charge of the National
> Congress of the Chechen People's executive committee, a nationalist
> opposition organization."
>
> was Dzhakhar Dudayev. He later became Chechnya's first president in 1991.
> General Dudayev refused Moscow's order to attack the pro-independence
> movement in Estonia during the Singing Revolution. He instead ordered his
> troops to stay in their barracks and allowed the Estonian national flag to
> fly over the base. His actions prevented bloodshed in Estonia during those
> touchy times and earned him a great deal of respect throughout the Baltics."
Hmm .... has Gorby ordered Dudaev's *division of strategic bombers* to
nuke the "pro-independence movement in Estonia during the Singing
Revolution" (just to make them stop singing), or what?
Peteris Cedrinš
[Reposted because the previous post did not propagate to many servers.]
From: "Peteris Cedrinš" <ced...@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics,soc.culture.russian
"Alex" <Alex...@blackcity.net> rakstija zinojuma
news:1110217842.3...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
>
>
> Peteris Cedrinš wrote:
>> "Alex" <Alex...@blackcity.net> rakstija zinojuma
>> news:1110147342.6...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> [deletions]
>>
>> >>Fine, Kirill -- watch the Russian Empire oops Federation dissolve.
>> >> I'm all for its dissolution.
>> >
>> > Why are you for Russian "dissolution"? Deep inside fan of Mr Hui?
>> > Anyway it would be the biggest disaster ever! Latvia will not
> benefit
>> > from it, will get kind of chilly without natural gas, oil, etc.
>>
>> Why? Because Russia remains an empire -- the same prison and
> graveyard it
>> has been for centuries
>
> Well then isn't USA an empire also? Who stole/won a war in Mexican
> North West?
>
> I wanna hear you say "Independent republic of Native Indians without
> casinos" But of course USA is your original home.
Yes, the USA is an empire -- how do you think its being my original
home
affects my views, exactly? Do you think that because so many Russians
offer
poisonous doses of Great Russian chauvinism whenever their country is
criticized -- everybody else in the world must act similarly? Of course
the Native
Americans should have the right to develop their nations (with or
without
casinos, depending upon their desires), and Canada has accomplished
this to
a great degree, restructuring its relationships to the Aboriginal
nations
and settling claims, creating broadly autonomous territories like
Nunavut,
etc.
There are three things I think you should take note of if you wish to
compare Russian crimes to American crimes -- (1) it's the 21st C, and
the
frequent Russian refrain of "but you offed the Indians" sounds
suspiciously like Russia would like a license to practice 19th C
nation-
building (2) America is a _successful_ empire, rich and rather
democratic;
not too many Mexicans in California would be interested in rejoining
Mexico
(3) most Americans are not proud of what was done to the Native
Americans.
>> -- and I believe in the self-determination of
>> peoples. I think that those who believe in a kindler, gentler
Russian
>
>> Federation are as deluded as the people who believed in the
> possibility of
>> a kindler, gentler future for the Soviet Union -- and similarly
> predicted
>> "the biggest disaster ever" were it dissolved.
>
> Yeah but its different, SU had only 15 republics, Russia has 88
> regions, how do you see breakup of Russia? 88 different countries? Or
> any region could declare independence? Doesn't matter how you put it,
> there is going to be a big country near Latvia, sorry Peteris.
Sorry? I realize that Latvia's geography is unlikely to change. I don't
have a problem with there being a big country next to Latvia. I do have
a
problem with having a big, domineering country next to Latvia. Russia's
ability to bully has been diminished, at least a little. Pretty NATO
planes
streak across the sky.
As to how I see the breakup -- please remember that I was responding to
Kirill; I don't envision a breakup in the near future (unfortunately).
If (and it's an unlikely "if") Russia becomes more democratic in the
near
future, it has to function as a willing federation, which means that
the
Russians cannot dominate it. Nations like Tatarstan are probably viable
independent nations. Compare Franco's policies and the devolution that
followed -- and the continuing conflict with the Basques. Obviously,
Russia
can continue to crush nascent separatism. Can it be democratic at the
same
time? I don't think so.
>> Russia can even turn out to be worse -- the USSR kept up a pretense
> of
>> "internationalism." Today's Russia is tinged with a more primitive
> fascism.
>> Consider the surge in racism and anti-Semitism as well as the
current
>
>> centralization.
>
> Is that why 50 000 mostly young Jews moved back to Russia in a last
few
> years? Russia is huge country, with different point of views, there
is
> always going to be racism and anti-semitism. According to Jewish
world
> ranking, Russia is third worst country in Europe, after France and
> England, when it comes to anti-semitism in Europe.
Oh, please. Anti-Semitism was only part of what I mentioned above.
There is
obviously a surge of ethnic nationalism in Russia -- do you wish to
deny
that? Here, please read this (in Russian); I particularly like his
line,
"we defeated the Germans, but we did not defeat fascism" --
http://www.dialogi.lv/article.php?id=600&t=0&rub=0
>>As to being a fan of Mr. Hui -- why do you say that? I'm
>> afraid you can't accuse me of Russophobia for urging the country's
> breakup
>> -- I also favor the breakup of China and Canada, >for example.
>
> Well sorry then touchy feelin', I thought like good emigranter,
> Russophobia is in your blood.
You seem to have a problem with "emigranters." Russophobia isn't
carried in
the blood -- do you like bad 19th C biology with your 19th C nation-
building? A phobia, in its first definition, is "a persistent,
abnormal,
and irrational fear of a specific thing or situation that compels one
to
avoid it, despite the awareness and reassurance that it is not
dangerous"
(I'm using the _American Heritage_ like a "good emigranter"). Fear of
Russia is neither abnormal nor irrational, and Russia is indeed
dangerous.
My parents didn't emigrate -- they were displaced by the occupation. My
father was a translator in the Legion. They considered themselves to be
exiles, as did most everyone else in the Latvian community, and I grew
up
with the understanding that we would live in Latvia if/when it was
again
free. I repatriated in 1991, immediately after we regained our
independence. Does that influence my views? Undoubtedly. Members of my
family died at the hands of the Russians in places like Vorkuta, to be
buried in the snow.
Do I hate Russians? No. Unlike Hui, I realize that Latvia changed in
half a
century under occupation. I see Latvia as a multicultural country in
which
the leading culture should be Latvian, and I've never advocated
throwing
anybody out on the basis of their ethnicity, family history, or
language. I
do, however, realize that Russia is a country with... well, let's be
kind
and call them "psychological problems." Latvia does not lack its own
psychological problems. It would be silly to pretend that many in the
Russian (or more precisely Soviet and/or Sovietized, and/or Russified)
minority do not form a bloc of persons inimical to our nationhood as we
conceive of it. It would be silly to pretend that Russia, which
in its perversity has determined that to a greater or lesser degree we
are
an enemy, is not hostile.
The current controversy has shown that reconciliation is simply not
possible at this time. I think we do a pretty good job of facing up to
our
history. I think Russia does a rather wretched job of facing up to its
history.
>>I don't think
>> Russia can become a decent country until it abandons its imperialist
>> pretensions -- and holding people together by force hurts not only
> the
>> people you hold, it hurts Russia;
>
> So what if those "people" do not want independence? Most of them do
> not. Did you know that Ingushetia separated from Chechnya, because
> Ingush people wanted to be part of RF. Do you know that South Assetia
> (now part of Georgia) trying hard to join Russia.
> Although I'm for "Mari republic" Sounds fun.
You think that the separation of the Ingush and the Chechens is such a
simple thing? It dates back a very long time:
"The Ingush took little part in the Shamil revolt from 1834-58, whereas
the
uprising stamped a permanent mark on the Chechens. During the 1860s,
when
ethnic Russian settlers started pouring into the Caucasus on a large
scale,
the western Nakh (Ingush) were relatively passive, whereas the eastern
Nakh
(Chechens) resisted violently. At this point, the Russians started to
refer
to them as Ingush and Chechens. Chechens were driven into the
mountains,
while the Ingush were encouraged to settle on the plain. In 1920,
Ingushetia was merged into the new Mountain People's Autonomous
Republic,
but in 1924 it was changed as the Ingush Outonomous Oblast. In 1934, it
was
merged with the Chechen Ingush Autonomous Oblast to become the Chechen-
Ingush ASSR. In Stalinist era of 1930s, Ingush intellectual leaders
were
slaughtered, the language outlawed, and attempts were made to suppress
Muslim traditions. The result, however, was that Muslim and
anti-Russian
sentiments were strengthened. Collectivisation reinforced these trends.
"In the Second World War, when the Nazi Germans neared the Caucasian
oilfields, Ingush and Chechens were found on both sides in the war.
Because
of this lack of loyalty to Soviet power, the Chechens and Ingush
(totalling
319.000 and 74.000 respectively) were deported to Siberia and Central
Asia
and removed from official statistics. The Autonomous Oblast was
disbanded.
"In 1957, the Ingush were rehabilitated and the Chechen-Ingush
Autonomous
Oblast re-established. Re-settlement caused tensions with other peoples
that had moved into their villages, and now had to be expelled. During
the
exile years, the Ingush became almost as fiercely anti-Russian as the
Chechens.
"In the following decades, despite campaigns against religion, the
Ingush
clung to Islam. In 1975, it was estimated that -just like the Chechens-
half the Ingush population belonged to Sufi brotherhoods. Mosques were
reopened in 1978. Glasnost encouraged the various peoples of the Soviet
Union to demand more autonomy, and the Ingush were no exception. In the
turmoil after the August 1991 coup in Moscow, Chechen leaders declared
an
independent Chechen republic, separated from the Ingush. The republic
of
Ingushetia was established as part of the Russian Federation.
"Thus, Ingushetia is the most recently established republic in the
North
Caucasus. Two reasons were decisive in this choice. Firstly, Ingushetia
is
involved in an extremely difficult conflict with neighbouring North
Ossetia
about the territory of Prigorodny, the suburb, and parts of the North-
Ossetian capital Vladikavkaz, which had been given to North Ossetia
while
the entire Ingush people lived in forced exile in Central Asia. It is
thought that more than 60.000 Ingush are said to have lived in the
disputed
area. (Official Soviet accounts, counting only those with an official
permit of residence, gave the number at 32.800 in 1989.)
"The Ingush had hoped that by not following Chechnia into independence,
Russia would probably assist them in regaining their former habitat
particularly after President Yeltsin issued the law on rehabilitation,
which includes territorial rehabilitation. In the summer of 1992
President
Yeltsin by presidential decree issued a general moratorium on boundary
changes in the Caucasus. Secondly as a minority and a predominantly
rural
people they felt absolutely disadvantaged in Chechnia. Due to some
disagreements on the Cossack-inhabited Sunzha district, the border
between
Chechnia and Ingushetia has still not been finally drawn in order to
avoid
conflict. Depending on the future for the North Caucasus- a solution of
the
conflicts or long-term violence- Chechen and Ingush might reunite one
day,
as they are closely related, their languages fully comprehensible and
some
clans consist of both Ingush and Chechen families, the clan relations
still
being very much alive.
[...]
"Ingushetia has criticised the role of Moscow in the conflict. Russia
declared the district in a state of emergency, and sent in troops to
disarm
the fighting groups. Ingushetia is accusing these troops of siding with
the
Ossets, since all Ingush were driven out while the Russian troops were
present. Moscow established a temporary military administration in the
disputed republic, which has had seven leaders in one year, mostly
Russian
vice-premiers, without reaching any solutions."
http://www.kafkas.org.tr/english/bgkafkas/bukaf_ingusetya.html
All across the Caucasus, it's basically the same story -- bloody
Russian
oppression and deportations, Russification, collectivization, etc.
It's a bit glib to suggest that "these 'people' do not want
independence" -
- naturally, since Russia engaged in the brutal slaughter of the
Chechens
once they attempted to achieve independence, many peoples are rather
careful about what they wish for -- which ius the point of the
slaughter.
See, for instance, this site about the peoples of Dagestan, Alex --
http://www.hunmagyar.org/caucasus/dag.html
The Aguls -- "Anti-Russian feelings caused by years of manipulation and
russification efforts by the Soviet government. Low participation in
the
state schools resulted in low education level."
The Avars -- "The Shamil Revolt collapsed in 1858, but the Avars
already
hated everything Russian. In 1864, the Russians changed the Avar
Khanate
into the Avar District. In 1920, the Mountain Autonomous Republic was
established, with Arabic as the official language. Avars, together with
other non-Arabic speaking peoples of the region, resisted the
government,
and in 1921 the state created the Dagestan ASSR as an ethnic
sub-division
of the larger republic. In the late 1920s, the Soviet government
imprisoned
and executed local religious leaders in an attempt to strangle Muslim
faith. Avar language was latinized, and then switched to the Cyrillic
alphabet in 1938. At the same time Russian was made the only language
of
instruction in the schools. In the 1960s, teaching Avar at all was
prohibited. The authorities' russification attempts, anti-Islamism,
forced
collectivisation, and general oppression has simply served to
strengthen
the Avars' ethnic identity and their hatred towards the Russians."
The Dargins -- "However, gradually, Russian language was imposed in
schools
and administrations. The Dargins resisted russification by simply
refusing
to participate in programs to relocate them out of the highlands and
into
lowland towns and collective farms. Thus, the majority of the Dargins
still
maintain a traditional lifestyle."
The Laks -- "Efforts at russification of the Lak population, and
sovietizing the Lak economy, increased poverty and strengthened anti-
Russian sentiments."
The Rutuls -- "The forced assimilation to merge the Rutuls and the
Tsakhurs
with the Azerbaijanis, together with the general russification efforts
increased the Rutuls' hatred towards everything Russian. It also led to
a
relatively sharp , but temporary, decrease in the Rutul population."
Shall I go on, Alex?
Source: Norwegian Institute of International Affairs, Centre for
Russian
Studies.
Granted, if you offer these peoples a choice between anarchistic
mayhem,
rampaging Islamists, etc., and a lovely life as mankurts under the
lovely Russian
Kulturtraeger, many may choose Russia. There are other choices. But
even if
only the two are offered, we do live in an era of rising fanatical
Islamism. If people are desperate, many will turn to it.
>>it's no secret that most Russians despise
>> people from the Caucasus, for instance, so why bleed to death
holding
> on to
>> the Caucasus? Unless, of course, you plan to kill >the people...
>
> And your point is? 60-80% of money that those Kavkaz republics spent,
> comes from Federal budget. There is no jobs in that part of Russia,
if
> Russia would leave caucasus, then you would see a lot more Kavkaz
> people in Russia.
Just as you see many Algerians in France. But Russia is determined to
maintain a stranglehold on the Caucasus economically and militarily --
because it knows very well that were strangleholds removed, the
Caucasus would bolt.
>>France went
>> through similar heartache in Algeria -- was its departure "the
> biggest
>> disaster ever?"
>
> Russia would leave if all or most kavkaz republics wanted.
Yeah, right.
>> > Russian is a Russian, anywhere. So I'm not buying what you're
> selling.
>>
>> How does that gel with "it's the economy, stupid"? Kaliningrad,
> detached
>> from Russia and surrounded by more or less prosperous democracies,
is
>
>> unlikely to have very much in common with the >metropolitan in the
> future.
>
> Of course when I mentioned "its economy, stupid" I was talking about
> Romania.
Romania is on track to join the EU in January 2008.
>> Is a Russian more of a Russian anywhere than a German is a German?
> Are
>> Austrians Germans? If Russians are Russians anywhere _politically_,
> then
>> _you_ are more like Mr. Hui than I, and there's little point in
> trying to
>> integrate them in the Baltics, eh?
>
> Integration is good, as long as its within RF.
And what does that mean, Alex?
Vsego horoshego,
/P
MirTopolskiRexPrez
> There are three things I think you should take note of if you wish to
> compare Russian crimes to American crimes -- (1) it's the 21st C, and
> the frequent Russian refrain of "but you offed the Indians" sounds
> suspiciously like Russia would like a license to practice 19th C
> nation-building
Hey, the main difference is this. USA already exterminated their natives
(the remaining reservation inmates are not worth counting). By contrast,
Russia failed to exterminate theirs, and your fellow Balts can serve as
best proof thereof. Instead, some Russian "natives" tried to exterminate
Russians (re: Latvian Riflemen and beyond).
ladzius
Vladimir Makarenko
> In article <U6udndLvuKn...@comcast.com>, Vladimir Makarenko
> <maka...@popmail.med.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
>
>> Eugene Holman wrote:
>>
>>
>>> In article <1110318522.2...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
>>> "Dmitry" <klapka...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> <deletions>
>
>>>> That was an interesting discussion..... Some time ago Eugene expressed
>>>> his wish for Russia to split into separate countries.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Correct. Not out of dislike or disrespect for Russia, but out of an
>>> understanding that a country that size with a dwindling population and
>>> overpopulated neighbors
>>
>>
>> China is overpopulated? Just take a calculator and make some simple
operations. Who else?
>
>
>
> A lot of China is desert and virtually uninhabitable. The Chinese
coast is
> one of the more overcrowded areas on earth.
Avoiding to do your homework? If the coast is overpopulated it is not
due to lack of usable land in inner China.
>
>
>> is eventually going to have to deal with the
>>
>>> sobering contradiction between its huge territory and unparalleled
wealth
>>> in natural resources, and the increasingly limited human resources
>>> available to defend it.
>>
>>
>> Absurd. A few tens of nukes enough to do this.
>
>
>
> A few dozen nukes will kill people in addition to destroying
resources and
> living space, thus wiping out decades of work and investment. This
brutish
> "solutiuon" will also generate ill will and a desire to retaliate in
kind.
In this hypothetical (to put it mildly) situation there will be left no
aggressor to exhibit "ill will". ANd the only desire left would be to
get rid of free radicals.
> Russians will eventually undertand that they lack the human or military
> resources to ratain control over so much land.
>
Russians can't' wait when you stop to fantasize apocalypses and start to
think a little closer to reality.
>
>> Russia has thousands. Remember Dr. Strangelove?
>
>
>
> I most certainly do. The saddest or funniest thing about the film was
> at the very end, when they were thinking of military options to ensure
> against a mineshaft gap. Dr. Strangelove, sexually stimulated by this
talk
> of a new arms race and understanding that his position as chief of
weapons
> research will not become redundant, demonstrates his potency by standing
> up and ejaculating "Mein Führer, I can walk!"
>
The point is of having a Doomsday machine. The North Korea having only
unconfirmed few nukes projects enough power to make everybody ready "to
talk" instead of smashing their heads with a baseball bat as it was done
to Iraq.
>
>>> I would suggest an initial split into European Russia and Siberia.
>>
>>
>> First start splitting your apartment and check account - much more
realistic.
>
>
>
> I am able to manage them as they are, thank you very much.
Every burglar thinks otherwise. That's why you lock your door.
Moscow, on the
> other hand, has serious difficulties managing the territory that it has
> now.
Now you think like a burglar. Remember Hitler with his idea of "a
colossus on clay feet"?
The only difficulty Russia has is to accurately count all what it
possesses, because the wealth is so enormous.
>
>
>>> European Russia would go the industrialist and post-industrialist
>>> value-added and services-oriented path, eventually associciating itself
>>> with the EU and becoming the largest, if not necessarily the most
>>> influential, country in Europe. Siberia, the part of Russia
presently east
>>> of the Urals, would be the world's major exporter of raw materials
and a
>>> builder of futuristic underground or domed cities and
infrastructure where
>>> people, many of them young and ambitious immigrants from poorer
countries
>>> with large populations, could extract oil or mine for gold,
platinum, or
>>> diamonds when the weather outside is -50° C.
>>
>>
>> Russia doesn't need immigrants to manage its wealth- it has a pool
of tens of mln of Russians, Ukranians, Belorussians in the geographical
neighborhood.
>
>
>
> Yes, fine as far as European Russia is concerned. How many of them would
> be willing to relocate to Norilsk, Kamchatka, or Sakhalin? How many of
> them drink themselves to death before reaching the age of fifty?
Cut the crap. Leave it to usual suspects, there are enough of them around.
>
>
>>> Of course it is impolite of me to suggest future scenarios for other
>>> people's split-up countries.
>>
>>
>> I do not think it's impolite - it's usual impudent russophobic
bullshit, mostly born out of traditional EU's envy and greed for
Russia's riches.
>> Well, "vidit oko, da zub ne meieut".
>
>
>
> Not Russophobia at all.
It is exactly Russophobia - fear of Russia and Russians. Mostly because
of ignorance, caveman mythology ("people with dragon heads are living
there", "drinking vodka with dry fish") and mere xenophobia inherent to
European nations cultures.
Russia is a declining power that has managed to
> piss off many of its neighbors.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Declining and declining, declining and declining. How
many more centuries you will play this soothing lullaby for yourself?
Maybe it's time to wake up eventually and just face the real music?
Japan's prime minister will probably not
> be attending the ceremony in Moscow on May 9 because of Russian
> intransigence about some islands snatched by the USSR during the last
days
> of WW II.
It would be a pretext. The real reason is that Japan was a Nazi ally and
is in denial of what it did in WWII.
Estonia, Latvia, Chechnya, Finland, and China are also not on
> the best possible terms with Russia because of land unilaterally
> appropriated by Russia or the USSR in the past.
Chechnya? The southern province of Russian federation?
As to the rest -you forgot to add Lithuania to the bunch above.
Whatever shadow resentments they have about history doesn't change their
attitude to the cold ice cash they make dealing with Russia. This what
is on the bottom line. MONEY.
Russia will simply not
> have the resources to hold on to everything it has a generation from now.
And you made this conclusion basing on...?
> How it is to deal with this situation should be discussed today.
It was discussed and appropriate steps were made - ever heard about
"Topol M"?
There is
> nothing impudent, russophobic, or taurocopric about pointing this out.
And there is nothing chauvinistic to point out that that kind of
arguments do not hold water.
> Russia is overextended, and the trend is for it to become even more
> overextended in the future.
Explain the word "overextended" with respect to modern economic,
military and social geography. Demonstrate that situation is critical
and deteriorating rather than improving. DO it.
>
>
>> But, given the realities in eastern Asia,
>>
>>> where Russia lays claim to vast tracts of land, but will have a
population
>>> smaller than Japan's and ten times smaller than China's by 2020 if
current
>>> demographic trends continue, these ideas have to be considered.
>>
>>
>> And a couple of centures ago there were no Russians in Siberia at
all: numbers are senseless out of context.
>
>
>
> Agreed. A couple of centuries ago Russia was a developing empire and, as
> far as Siberia was concerned, a modernizer and *Kulturträger*.
That's your original sin (not only yours though)- that this role of
Russia is in the past and that any development came to stop. Which is of
course is just ignorance with respect to reality. Wishful?
Now Russia
> is in decline,
Yeah, yeah, with economy growth one of the fastest in Europe. You wish
your saving account would decline that fast.
while three countries in the vicinity of its almost empty
> Asian part, China, India, and Japan, will have far larger populations and
> a need for *Lebensraum* and access to the resources in Siberia a
> generation from now, while Russia will have many missiles but a declining
> population and far too much territory to defend.
There is no too much territory to defend with Russia's nuclear
superiority, which cannot be upset for obvious reasons. As I said -
nobody in its right mind would mess up with M.A.D.
>
>> You suffer from mentality of small provincial country. Buy a dish.
>> Future belongs to SuperEmpires, as it always had, - don't you see
what is going on in front of your eyes?
>
>
>
> The future belongs to countries that are able to manage and defend their
> territories efficiently.
Russia's bank account shows that it does just fine.
Russia has shown that it can't even deal
> effectively with Chechnya except for by killing, bombing, and destroying.
Wrong. It was Chechens who demonstrated that they cannot manage their
own territory. Just three years without supervision and slipped back to
medieval kidnapping business, slavery and folk entertainment of public
executions. That's a fucking nation building!
In the end all that wouldn't matter if they limit themselves to their
own territory, but such society is unsustainable without robbing
outsiders - if you do not work you have to rob or steal right?
But it was a wrong idea to take on Russia.
Now the Chechen conflict is over. "Chechenization" of it produced
desirable result of marginalizing the bandit influence and putting them
on the run. How long they can survive in barred mountain areas depends
on their Arab sponsors, but from any angle it's just question of
time.The Chechen youth is more interested in making money than roadside
bombs.
> Now that's a great way to manage your territory, infrastructure, and
human
> resources.
Chechen crisis was born in trouble times of 90 ties. It was localized
and it is over.
VM.
>
> Regards,
> Eugene Holman
Vladimir Makarenko
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/russian/in_depth/newsid_4325000/4325675.stm
MirTopolskiRexPrez
> So, who is the looser then ?
Good question (but bad spelling), Ladzie. We'll see - the game is not
over yet.
ladzius
henry alminas
"MirTopolskiRexPrez" <b...@black.hole> wrote in message
news:d0mqcr$aov$1...@online.de...
As always, Mirsky, you are full of sh**.
The Amerind population in the US is 4.1 mil.
Now I know that you russkies like to think BIG and
considering the numbers of people exterminated by
your matushka 4.1 mil. ain't that much - but that is
more than there are Lithuanians - just for example
(that is even with all the Lithuania-resident russkies thrown
in)!
Best - - Henry
Captain!
Alex
Pçteris Cedriòð (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
> Alex,
>
> Why don't you compare and contrast the responses between young people
in
> the Mel Huang article I linked to earlier, "Chechnya: An Honorary
Baltic
> State." It's a little dated, but it still offers a very illuminating
> glimpse of differences in... hmm, cultures? An extract, for
educational
> purposes only:
So? Group hug for terrorists. I'm shocked. As if little Estonian kids
could understand Kavkaz politics. As for Russians kids, I'm not
surprised, some I guess got wrong info.
> "If only Putin had not been dismissed, because he was the one who
began
> to lift Russia from its knees."
Besides if you ask 100-500 kids, you could always find few answers that
you want/need, thats main purpose of that site, "Peaceful Estonian kids
VS Blood hungry Russian kids"
Alex.
MirTopolskiRexPrez
>"MirTopolskiRexPrez" wrote:
>>Peteris Cedrinš wrote:
>>>There are three things I think you should take note of if you wish to
>>>compare Russian crimes to American crimes -- (1) it's the 21st C, and
>>>the frequent Russian refrain of "but you offed the Indians" sounds
>>>suspiciously like Russia would like a license to practice 19th C
>>>nation-building
>>Hey, the main difference is this. USA already exterminated their natives
>>(the remaining reservation inmates are not worth counting). By contrast,
>>Russia failed to exterminate theirs, and your fellow Balts can serve as
>>best proof thereof. Instead, some Russian "natives" tried to exterminate
>>Russians (re: Latvian Riflemen and beyond).
> As always, Mirsky, you are full of sh**.
No!
> The Amerind population in the US is 4.1 mil.
> Now I know that you russkies like to think BIG and
> considering the numbers of people exterminated by
> your matushka 4.1 mil. ain't that much - but that is
> more than there are Lithuanians - just for example
> (that is even with all the Lithuania-resident russkies thrown
> in)!
So Henry sez that Amerinds = Rusliths and US Reservation Gulag =
Lithuania? Hmm ... I'll think about it. But now tell me pleez how many
Lithuanians lived in their homelands prior to Russian invasion? BTW when
this invasion should have taken place, if at all? Under Ivan IV or Peter I?
Alex
Pçteris Cedriòð (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
> "Alex" <Alex...@blackcity.net> rakstîja ziòojumâ
> news:1110341794....@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Dudayev refused to kill Estonians? A Myth nothing more. He never
had a
> > chance. Whoever fights Russians, is a hero to some people, I guess.
>
> If it's a myth, the burden of proof is on you -- I'm afraid you
disagree
> with the _Encyclopaedia Brittanica_ and other reputable sources.
>
Brittanica and "reputable sources" do not prove anything in this case,
they just wrote what other people said. I use common sence, thats all.
Why would Moscow demand use of force from commander of nuclear airforce
bombers when you had OMON and other Soviet forces in Estonia? Hey maybe
Moscow thought nuclear bomber pilots would be better at attacking those
poor Estonians freedomfighters?
> Perhaps you just have trouble reading, unlike Dudayev --
>
Yeah you have to give Dudayev credit, he managed to turn Chechnya from
stable, peaceful republic into pure hell in just 3 years, from 1991-94.
Before first Chechen war started.
> "At the entrance of the Barclay Hotel in the historic heart of Tartu,
the
> second city of the Baltic republic of Estonia, there is a new plaque
made
> of black marble. Its message is very simple: 'The first president of
the
> Chechen republic Ichkeria, General Dzhokhar Dudayev, worked in this
house
> from 1987 to 1991.'
<<In 1990 his
division was withdrawn from Estonia and Dudayev returned to Groznyy,>>
Hey maybe division forgot him in Estonia? So was it 90 or 91? Your
"reputable sources" can't agree on that one.
Alex.
cherni...@hotmail.com
> > That was an interesting discussion..... Some time ago Eugene
expressed
> > his wish for Russia to split into separate countries.
>
> Correct. Not out of dislike or disrespect for Russia, but out of an
> understanding that a country that size with a dwindling population
and
> overpopulated neighbors is eventually going to have to deal with the
> sobering contradiction between its huge territory and unparalleled
wealth
> in natural resources, and the increasingly limited human resources
> available to defend it.
I guess there's no hope for Canada then. How many decades until
Russia's population dwindles down to Canada's population density?
BM
> I would suggest an initial split into European Russia and Siberia.
> European Russia would go the industrialist and post-industrialist
> value-added and services-oriented path, eventually associciating
itself
> with the EU and becoming the largest, if not necessarily the most
> influential, country in Europe. Siberia, the part of Russia presently
east
> of the Urals, would be the world's major exporter of raw materials
and a
> builder of futuristic underground or domed cities and infrastructure
where
> people, many of them young and ambitious immigrants from poorer
countries
> with large populations, could extract oil or mine for gold, platinum,
or
> diamonds when the weather outside is -50° C.
>
> Of course it is impolite of me to suggest future scenarios for other
> people's split-up countries. But, given the realities in eastern
Asia,
> where Russia lays claim to vast tracts of land, but will have a
population
> smaller than Japan's and ten times smaller than China's by 2020 if
current
> demographic trends continue, these ideas have to be considered.
>
> Regards,
> Eugene Holman
Kvebekski
<cherni...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1110397774....@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Eugene Holman wrote:
> > That was an interesting discussion..... Some time ago Eugene
expressed
> > his wish for Russia to split into separate countries.
>
> Correct. Not out of dislike or disrespect for Russia, but out of an
> understanding that a country that size with a dwindling population
and
> overpopulated neighbors is eventually going to have to deal with the
> sobering contradiction between its huge territory and unparalleled
wealth
> in natural resources, and the increasingly limited human resources
> available to defend it.
I guess there's no hope for Canada then. How many decades until
Russia's population dwindles down to Canada's population density?
BM
Humm. Good point.
cherni...@hotmail.com
Kvebekski wrote:
> <cherni...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1110397774....@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Eugene Holman wrote:
>
> > > That was an interesting discussion..... Some time ago Eugene
> expressed
> > > his wish for Russia to split into separate countries.
> >
> > Correct. Not out of dislike or disrespect for Russia, but out of an
> > understanding that a country that size with a dwindling population
> and
> > overpopulated neighbors is eventually going to have to deal with
the
> > sobering contradiction between its huge territory and unparalleled
> wealth
> > in natural resources, and the increasingly limited human resources
> > available to defend it.
>
> I guess there's no hope for Canada then. How many decades until
> Russia's population dwindles down to Canada's population density?
>
> BM
>
>
> Humm. Good point.
>
I'll bet the greedy Americans will be taking your water before the
Chinese take any Russian territory...
regards,
BM
Mr. Fun
nothing but big phonies and trolls.
"Alex" <Alex...@blackcity.net> wrote in message
news:1110315560....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
> The legitimate President of Ichkeria, Aslan Maskhadov, has reportedly
been
> killed by Russian troops in Tolstoy-Yurt, north of Grozny.
>
> Vieglas smiltis.
>
> /P
Here is the body;
«Pas de deux»
with a smile and a pat on the head?
Stop your aisinine comments and start demanding that Russians apologise
and pay compensation.
GK
"Captain!" <ti...@loose.net> wrote in message
news:uGHXd.621914$8l.9390@pd7tw1no...
«Pas de deux»
non-Russians in "Russian Federation" are equivalent of American Indians,
ie indigenous tribes. 150 years after USA settled its dirty business,
Russia is still engaged in land grabs and genocide.
GK
"MirTopolskiRexPrez" <b...@black.hole> wrote in message
news:d0njae$5kl$1...@online.de...
«Pas de deux»
news:IfJXd.60912$Gn2.2...@weber.videotron.net...
>> a country with a dwindling population and overpopulated neighbors
>> is eventually going to have to deal with the sobering contradiction
>> between its huge territory and unparalleled wealth in natural
>> resources,
>> and the increasingly limited human resources available to defend it.
>
> I guess there's no hope for Canada then. How many decades until
> Russia's population dwindles down to Canada's population density?
>
> BM
>
>
> Humm. Good point.
Not a good point at all. Canada is not "a country with a dwindling
population and overpopulated neighbors".
There is no threat to Canada's security. We should scrap our armed
forces and spend the money on eduction and health care. I hope that's
what an independent Québec will do.
GK
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
1) What do you propose as the mechanics of the greedy UNITED STATESIANS
taking the pure Canadian waters. Pipeline? tanker ships? bottled?
2) Do you distingguish between reclaiming of lost land taking Russian
territory?
MirTopolskiRexPrez
> There is no threat to Canada's security. We should scrap our armed
> forces and spend the money on eduction and health care. I hope that's
> what an independent Québec will do.
Nonsense. An *independent* Québec will be immediately invaded and
redemocratized à la Iraq by Mad Uncle Sam. The only realistic Québec
solution is to vote for reunification with France and hence EU ...
Kvebekski
<cherni...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1110407462.5...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
They already started sucking the great lakes. St-Laurent is threatened.
We'll have to start a war over water soon.
>
> regards,
>
> BM
>
Fingal
<ced...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Fingal <blyayan...@mail.ru> rakst?ja zi?ojum?
>news:hm9031lhk3t0lf42a...@4ax.com:
>
>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:18:58 GMT, "P?·teris Cedri?‚?€ (Peteris
>> Cedrins)" <ced...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>[deletions]
>
>>>P.S. Andrius Kubilius, the opposition leader in the Seimas, has
>>>expressed his condolences to the Chechen people. "Kubilius stated that
>>>it is a pity that Russia, driven by 'blind and bloody rage,' itself
>>>eliminates the chances of holding peaceful talks with lawfully elected
>>>Chechen leaders."
>>>
>>>http://www.elta.lt/zinute.php?inf_id=419743
>>
>> Kublius also wrote:
>>
>> "The democratic world was shocked to learn that, on orders from the
>> Kremlin, the legitimate president of Chechnya-Ichkeria, Aslan
>> Maskhadov, was killed. That is a horrible thing -- to have terrorism
>> legitimised at state level," the leader of the opposition Conservative
>> Party said in a statement released Wednesday."
>>
>> Seems ironic, given that Maskhadov, as many have pointed out, was a
>> democratically elected President who used terrorist methods, thereby
>> legitimizing those methods at state level.
>>
>
>But Kubilius also -- also -- wrote that Maskhadov was not only a talented
>military leader but also a far-sighted politician who "never crossed the
>line dividing the fight for liberation and terror."
>
>I would say (and _Diena_ says, in an editorial today) that we don't know
>whether Maskhadov crossed the line.
>
>But do forgive us for being exceedingly skeptical of Russian "evidence."
>Russia also accuses Zakayev of terrorism -- but Russia has failed to prove
>this to the satisfaction of a court in the normal world.
>
>Regarding the constantly expanding definition of "terrorism," look to Saint
>Augustine --
>
>"An apt and true reply was given to Alexander the Great by a pirate
>who had been seized. For when that king had asked the man what he
>meant by keeping hostile possession of the sea, he answered with bold
>pride. 'What thou meanest by seizing the whole earth; but because I do
>it with a petty ship, I am called a robber, whilst thou who dost it
>with a great fleet art styled emperor.'"
>
>-- _The City of God_
>
>Ceterum censeo imperium Russicum esse delendum.
>
>/P
But Kublius also also _also_ said...no, I'm kidding.
My entirely non-scientific definition of terrorism for my own purposes
would be: "deliberate targeting of non-combatants, with an intent to
instill terror." For me, that means carpet bombing cities, as well as
setting off bombs in the Moscow Metro.
Thoroughly stolen stuff here, but quite interesting (as always) from
Johnson's Russia List (no. 9094)
#17
No Obvious Replacement Seen for Slain Maskhadov in Chechnya
Izvestia
March 9, 2005
Article by Vadim Dubnov of Weekly Novoye Vremya, written specially for
Izvestiya: "Who Will Replace Maskhadov
The Russian special services used to report not as regularly on the
annihilation of Aslan Maskhadov as they did about the liquidation of
Basayev, and the head of the FSB (Federal Security Service) has never
reported personally on anything of the kind. So the present report can
be
taken seriously but with circumspection. Like the late Dudayev, who
died in
1996, an allegedly living Maskhadov could still repeatedly trouble the
imaginations of conspiracy theorists who believe in miracles. However,
now
that a corpse resembling the Ichkerian president has been put on show,
the
situation in Chechnya is changing very fundamentally.
By all accounts, the operation was prepared quite carefully and at a
quite
high level. In any case, the reports now about the pursuit of a group
of
gunmen in Nozhay-Yurtovskiy Rayon, among whom there is, possibly
Maskhadov,
sound like a diversionary maneuver, because Tolstoy-Yurt where the
Ichkerian president was wiped out, has nothing to do with the
mountainous
south of Chechnya.
However, the detention or elimination of Maskhadov was never an
insoluble
task from the military-tactical viewpoint. There was no difficulty
about
tracing his movements which occurred constantly: Tiny Chechnya is
flooded
with informants for Kadyrov's presidential security service. This
means
that it can be assumed that we are talking about not some chance
success on
the part of the special services, but about a decision made at the
highest
level. And if that is so, the Kremlin's approaches to Chechnya are
changing
radically.
As a combat leader, Maskhadov carried no greater clout than any of the
dozens of major field commanders. As a political leader, Maskhadov
undoubtedly irritated Moscow, but not to the degree that would make it
retreat from the line that it chose long ago in accordance with which
a
leader was needed, just in case, in the Chechen resistance who was
capable,
if the occasion presented itself, of appearing as the inspirer of its
political wing, like an Ichkerian Sinn Fein (political wing of Irish
Republican Army).
Throughout recent months it was in this role that Maskhadov had been
operating. Of course his recent statement about a truce was not worth
overestimating from the political viewpoint. That aspect had been
secondary
in Maskhadov's latest statements. The primary aspect was something
else:
Maskhadov had in fact resolutely dissociated himself from Basayev for
the
first time in the entire period of the second war. It is doubtful
whether
Maskhadov nurtured any illusions that Moscow would treat this signal
with
the attention it deserved. He was clearly not counting on Moscow. But
on
Europe, which takes an interest in any measures of the Sinn Fein
genre.
Especially in the run-up to the Chechen conference under the aegis of
the
Council of Europe which is scheduled for March.
Maskhadov let it be understood that he was ready to expedite events in
a
political settlement. And possibly his present diplomatic activeness
with
quite a successful attempt to salvage his political reputation in
Europe's
eyes, turned into the last straw for the jittery Russian authorities.
The
weakening argument that there is nothing about which to talk with
Maskhadov
who controls no one, is being replaced by an unshakable argument:
There is
now indeed no one with whom to talk.
There are no claimants for Maskhadov's place, nor can there be: His
position as president which had preserved its legitimacy for quite a
long
time, was unique. There are no other "legitimate" leaders in the
resistance
any longer. And of the key figures there remains only Basayev -- an
ideal
figure to compromise even the very idea of negotiations.
And the separatists do not have any new political leaders and won't
have
any for a very long time. Akhmed Zakayev is viewed in the world at
large
only as a representative of Maskhadov and does not enjoy any
particular
authority within Chechnya itself, either among the gunmen or among the
civilians. And the other representatives of the moderate wing cannot
even
boast of this.
The separatists, of course, will now hold quasi-elections and will
find a
formal president -- either the kind of person who will be a kind of
double
of Alu Alkhanov in terms of the level of his own significance, but a
mirror
image of him, or else a field commander with a well-known name like,
for
example, Doku Umarov. With all the ensuing negative consequences for
political dialogue and for the resistance's reputation in the West.
********
#18
PBS Newshour with Jim Lehrer
DEATH IN CHECHNYA
March 8, 2005
MARGARET WARNER: The details were murky, but the outcome seemed clear.
Aslan Maskhadov, once the undisputed leader of the Chechen
independence
movement, was dead.
Russian Television today showed gruesome images of a bearded man lying
on
the floor. Maskhadov died in what Moscow called a "special operation"
by
Russian security forces. One report said he was accidentally killed by
his
own bodyguards.
A one-time Soviet army colonel, Maskhadov led the Chechen rebels
during
their 1994-96 war of independence from Moscow. After fighting the
Russian
troops to a standstill, he signed a cease-fire with President Yeltsin
in
1996. The Russians pulled out, and in 1997, Maskhadov was elected
president
of an autonomous Chechnya.
But in 1999, shortly after Vladimir Putin became prime minister,
Russian
troops reinvaded. In the years since then, the Putin government has
blamed
Maskhadov for a series of bloody terrorist attacks against civilians.
The Chechen takeover of a Moscow theatre in 2002, in which 130 people
died;
and the 2004 seizure of a school in Beslan, which left 300 children
and
teachers dead. Maskhadov denied he had authorized either attack.
Shortly
before his death, he proposed peace talks with President Putin.
Maskhadov's
offer was rejected out of hand.
And for more, I'm joined by Yo'av Karny. He's an independent
journalist and
author of a book about the Caucasus, titled "Highlanders." He's
traveled
frequently to Chechnya, and Yo'av Karny, welcome.
YO'AV KARNY: My pleasure.
MARGARET WARNER: First let's talk about the circumstances of his is
death.
We're told that he was found or killed in a cellar somewhere in a
small
town in northern Chechnya called Tolstoy Yurt. What can you conclude
from
that?
YO'AV KARNY: I was a little bit surprised. If you would ask me
yesterday
where I felt he would be hiding, I would say probably in the caves in
the
mountains, and Tolstoy Yurt is in a plateau, easily accessible from
the
Russian border, from Grozny, not an ideal hideout. He must have, my
guess
is he was probably on the move, Saddam-like, not sleeping in the same
bunker more than a couple of consecutive nights.
MARGARET WARNER: And, as you know, there's some still confusion about
who
actually fired the fatal shots. Do you think -- was it in the Russian
self
interest to take him alive or kill him?
YO'AV KARNY: My guess for whatever its worth is get rid of him because
by
removing him from the scene, they pulled the last vestige of
legitimacy
from underneath the feet of the resistance. He was the legitimately
elected
president of a democratic government that is no longer.
MARGARET WARNER: All right, help us now understand how he got where he
was.
He started out, at least when he burst on the scene sort of
internationally; he was an effective military commander for the
independence movement.
YO'AV KARNY: In an extraordinary way. He received, under his command,
the
tiniest military force at the time of Russia's first invasion in 1994,
and
he led it eventually to the most improbable spectacular, sensational
victory 20 months later.
MARGARET WARNER: And then I gather that at the time of independence
somewhere in there, you actually met him briefly.
YO'AV KARNY: Yes.
MARGARET WARNER: Tell us about it and what were your impressions?
YO'AV KARNY: Very mild mannered man, completely lacking the firebrand
qualities of other Chechen leaders, the hyperboles, the
overstatements,
almost whispering to you. He came from a small clan in the plateau; it
was
not part of the mainstay of the resistance movement and probably never
felt
comfortable with that lot.
MARGARET WARNER: So then he became president. It was early 1997 and
really
just things came apart. He couldn't govern at all. Tell us what
happened.
What went wrong?
YO'AV KARNY: Well, he won a resounding victory in the elections -
about 2/3
of the vote -- elections that were largely certified as reasonably
free and
democratic. He had a mandate to govern to bring back Chechnya from the
dead.
Now the Russians didn't make it easier for him. They committed
themselves
to funneling funds for reconstruction. They didn't keep their word.
But he
should have started sort of a mental, psychological reconstruction. He
should have first of all dissolved the military formations, should
have
tried to instill discipline really, but apparently was out of debt.
And
also he didn't have much of a political tradition to fall upon.
The Chechens were never good in generating politics of consensus and
consultation. He at some point should have decided to flex muscles
against
extremists and arms bearers. He didn't have it in him -- for
understandable
reasons; he didn't want to engulf his nation in civil war. Eventually,
he
realized he had to do it and it turned out to be too late.
MARGARET WARNER: So basically in this period before the Russians
returned,
really Chechnya descended into a kind of lawlessness with foreign
Jihadist
elements coming in?
YO'AV KARNY: It was a black hole; the foreign Islamic missionaries,
mostly
Arabs, were trying to impose on Chechnya an alien Islam. Chechnya had
been
Muslim for three centuries before they arrived, but it was indigenous
Islam.
It was largely tolerant, inclusive and spiritual, not obsessed with
legalisms and the law and so on. And that collision between tradition
and
newly imported revolution is what undermined him and the entire
movement.
MARGARET WARNER: Now, as we mentioned in the piece that originally he
was
seen, even by Washington, as the best hope for a negotiated settlement
once
the Russians had reinvaded. But then at some point about three years
ago,
Washington even turned away and said, well, he had made common cause
with
these more extreme elements. Do you think that's true? Had he sort of
joined with the more extreme?
YO'AV KARNY: Well, you know, nominally at least he presided over that
deterioration of the independence movement toward terroristic conduct
and
therefore should be held responsible. If he had ever to be taken
seriously
as a person aspiring to be president, surely should have been held
responsible.
Whether he took a conscious decision to turn the independence struggle
into
terrorism, I doubt it very much. I think terrorism was largely the
reflection of his weakness, of his incompetence and of the hopelessly
divided Chechen political culture.
MARGARET WARNER: So you don't necessarily agree with the Putin
administration, which claims or asserts that he personally either
masterminded or was really behind both the Moscow theater siege and
the one
at the Beslan School?
YO'AV KARNY: I think it's silly in the extreme, and I think it's
self-serving. And the Russians have engaged in that for quite a while.
The
Russians know better. And the fact of the matter is that as late as
2001,
they engaged in publicly in negotiations by proxy.
MARGARET WARNER: With Mr. Maskhadov.
YO'AV KARNY: With an envoy of Aslan Maskhadov.
MARGARET WARNER: So, where does this leave the Chechen independence
movement and Chechnya?
YO'AV KARNY: I would imagine that the Chechen independence struggle as
is
we've known it in the last 15 years has come to an end. It is now
bereft of
legitimate leadership. There is no serious mechanism in place to
replace
Aslan Maskhadov even if there is a claim to that effect.
The lack of discipline that manifested itself under his presidency is
going
to get stronger and stronger; we are likely to see more terrorism, but
the
Chechens, not to engage in excessive romanticization, the Chechens
have
come back from the dead so many times. They have struggled with the
Russians since the 1780s, for about 230 years. I imagine that you
can't
really get rid of them that easily.
MARGARET WARNER: But does it leave this warlord, Shamil Basayev, who
was
also considered the other important leader, does it really leave him
as the
most influential figure and what does that mean?
YO'AV KARNY: I think that would be a reasonable conclusion. He is
certainly
the best known, the most charismatic and possibly the most effective
as a
military leader. He's also will one who showed the greatest amount of
political ignorance, lack of understanding of the realities of the
region,
and he alienated the Russians hopelessly and enjoyed it very much.
I suspect that under him, whether he assumes the title of president, I
don't think that's likely, but if he becomes the de facto leader of
the
resistance, things are going to get worse.
MARGARET WARNER: Yo'av Karny, thank you so much.
YO'AV KARNY: Thank you.
Kvebekski
"MirTopolskiRexPrez" <b...@black.hole> wrote in message
What about the unification of France, Luxembourg, Quebec, Belgium,
Switzerland (1/2), and maybe Monaco into a single french super-state?
Population: approximately 85 millions (excluding Départements d'outre-mer)
Land area: approximately 2 500 000 sq.km (excluding Départements d'outre-mer
such as Guyana, Polynesia)
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
news:1110394769.0...@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
"As if little Estonian kids could understand Kavkaz politics. As for
Russians kids, I'm not surprised, some I guess got wrong info. [...]
Besides if you ask 100-500 kids, you could always find few answers that
you want/need, thats main purpose of that site, "Peaceful Estonian kids
VS Blood hungry Russian kids"
Little Estonian kids understand freedom.
Oh, well -- we've already been informed by Makaron that Russians drinking
vodka and eating voblas are symptomatic stereotypes. Tell me, why do so
many suffer from Russophobia? What causes this dread disease?
Makaron and Topolski do a fine job of directing us to the probable causes,
methinks -- it's no longer necessary to visit a Russian forum to study the
virus when one can find it so easily in the rhetoric here.
First you say you're not surprised by the attitudes of the Russian kids,
but then you hint that the answers are selected with bias in mind. Which is
it? Are you suggesting that many -- very many -- Russians are not blood
hungry when it comes to the Caucasus?
Ceterum censeo imperium Russicum esse delendum.
/P
P.S. Andrius Kubilius, the opposition leader in the Seimas, has expressed
daniloff
"Vladimir Makarenko" <maka...@popmail.med.nyu.edu> wrote in message
news:fqidnZaN1-h...@comcast.com...
<snip>
> Two rumors are: first that his bodyguard accidentally shoot him, the
> second that Kadyrov's people shot him. The second is rather doubtful
> because at least oficially no Kadyrov people were around, only
Russian
> speznaz.
>
It seems to me that opinion Maskhadov was shot by Kadyrov's people is
very believable.
First, great reward was announced for Maskhadov head.
Second, there is real civil war blood feud in Chechnya now after
Kadyrov Sen.
Third, Kadyrov people shifted their blame onto Russian spetsnaz for not
to incur blood feud too.
Anyway such action would be impossible without natives' help
daniloff
> The first rumor maybe true as Moscow wanted him alive for
information.
> And there was no shoot out during the operation, he was the only
person
> to get killed on both sides.
>
> VM.
Fingal
<ced...@gmail.com> wrote:
>"Alex" <Alex...@blackcity.net> rakst?ja zi?ojum?
Kublius also wrote:
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
news:hm9031lhk3t0lf42a...@4ax.com:
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:18:58 GMT, "PŠ·teris CedriŃ‚Ń€ (Peteris
> Cedrins)" <ced...@gmail.com> wrote:
[deletions]
>>P.S. Andrius Kubilius, the opposition leader in the Seimas, has
>>expressed his condolences to the Chechen people. "Kubilius stated that
>>it is a pity that Russia, driven by 'blind and bloody rage,' itself
>>eliminates the chances of holding peaceful talks with lawfully elected
>>Chechen leaders."
>>
>>http://www.elta.lt/zinute.php?inf_id=419743
>
> Kublius also wrote:
>
> "The democratic world was shocked to learn that, on orders from the
> Kremlin, the legitimate president of Chechnya-Ichkeria, Aslan
> Maskhadov, was killed. That is a horrible thing -- to have terrorism
> legitimised at state level," the leader of the opposition Conservative
> Party said in a statement released Wednesday."
>
> Seems ironic, given that Maskhadov, as many have pointed out, was a
> democratically elected President who used terrorist methods, thereby
> legitimizing those methods at state level.
>
But Kubilius also -- also -- wrote that Maskhadov was not only a talented
military leader but also a far-sighted politician who "never crossed the
line dividing the fight for liberation and terror."
I would say (and _Diena_ says, in an editorial today) that we don't know
whether Maskhadov crossed the line.
But do forgive us for being exceedingly skeptical of Russian "evidence."
Russia also accuses Zakayev of terrorism -- but Russia has failed to prove
this to the satisfaction of a court in the normal world.
Regarding the constantly expanding definition of "terrorism," look to Saint
Augustine --
"An apt and true reply was given to Alexander the Great by a pirate
who had been seized. For when that king had asked the man what he
meant by keeping hostile possession of the sea, he answered with bold
pride. 'What thou meanest by seizing the whole earth; but because I do
it with a petty ship, I am called a robber, whilst thou who dost it
with a great fleet art styled emperor.'"
-- _The City of God_
Ceterum censeo imperium Russicum esse delendum.
/P
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
Question to our brБОu tauta: I understand that Maskhadov, unlike Dudayev in
Estonia, participated in the bloody repression in Vilnius as a Soviet
officer -- which he deeply regretted and called the most shameful act of
his professional life. Is there any more information on this, or on what
statements he made to reconcile with the Lithuanians?
/P
daniloff
"PГteris CedriРП (Peteris Cedrins)" <ced...@gmail.com> wrote in
message news:1110449938.59388979c07b040307db25f5d2caa03e@teranews...
<snip>
> P.S. Andrius Kubilius, the opposition leader in the Seimas, has
expressed
> his condolences to the Chechen people. "Kubilius stated that it is a
pity
> that Russia, driven by 'blind and bloody rage,' itself eliminates the
> chances of holding peaceful talks with lawfully elected Chechen
leaders."
No lawfully elected Chechen leader = no problem of holding peaceful
talks
daniloff
lora...@cs.com
Captain! wrote:
> "Alex" <Alex...@blackcity.net> wrote in message
> news:1110315560....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > The legitimate President of Ichkeria, Aslan Maskhadov, has
reportedly
> been
> > killed by Russian troops in Tolstoy-Yurt, north of Grozny.
> > Vieglas smiltis.
> > /P
>
> Here is the body;
> http://www.lenta.ru/news/2005/03/08/body/
>
> Rest in hell bastard! Basayev is next, I hope.
>
> So dear Peteris when will the street be named after him?
>
> Alex.
>
you
> know about it?
Hmmm.. two things:
1) By killing Mashkadov, Pootey has killed Chechen *moderation*.
Mashkadov was a moderate who did not sanction radical actions.
2) Mashkadov's eye was gouged out by russians. Russian barbarism lives
on. He was not killed by his bodyguards but by the explosives that the
russians used to get into his bunker.
3) (extra) 'Captain!' signs his posts as our 'half-Latvian' Alexei.
Wonder of wonders.
Freedom for Chechnya,
Uno Hu
lora...@cs.com
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj wrote:
> cherni...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > I'll bet the greedy Americans will be taking your water before the
> > Chinese take any Russian territory...
> >
> Two points.
> 1) What do you propose as the mechanics of the greedy UNITED
STATESIANS
> taking the pure Canadian waters. Pipeline? tanker ships? bottled?
> 2) Do you distingguish between reclaiming of lost land taking Russian
> territory?
Cherniimon ('black mon') must obviously be thinking that overly thirsty
americans have deployed telekinetic water transference abilities.
Uno Hu
Vladimir Makarenko
Does Quebec build a nuke reactor? Do they buy aluminum pipes? Night
visio gogles?
Who would trust Canadians anyway, especially Quebies, they don't even
speak real language up there... Who knows what they speak about in that
dog language of them... They need guidance...Exiles telling stories
about WMD... Time to check it out... They are f***ing frenchies anyway...
Are Quebies shia or sunni? Doesn't really matter - will beat shit out of
both...
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
ladzius wrote:
>
> So, who is the looser then ?
For understandable reasons I withdraw my earlier job offer as a spell
checker for you.
I still have an opening for a cleaning person.
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
> Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
>
>> "Commanding a division of strategic bombers based near Tartu, Estonia,
>> Dudayev worked his way up to the rank of major general. At the age of
>> 36, Dudayev was the first Chechen to become a general. Dudayev learned
>> Estonian and showed great tolerance for Estonian nationalism when he
>> ignored Soviet orders to shut down the Estonian television and
>> parliament. In 1990 his division was withdrawn from Estonia and
>> Dudayev returned to Groznyy, the Chechen capital. Upon his return,
>> Dudayev took charge of the National Congress of the Chechen People's
>> executive committee, a nationalist opposition organization."
>>
>> "The commanding general of Raadi during the crucial years of 1987 to
>> 1990 was Dzhakhar Dudayev. He later became Chechnya's first president
>> in 1991. General Dudayev refused Moscow's order to attack the
>> pro-independence movement in Estonia during the Singing Revolution. He
>> instead ordered his troops to stay in their barracks and allowed the
>> Estonian national flag to fly over the base. His actions prevented
>> bloodshed in Estonia during those touchy times and earned him a great
>> deal of respect throughout the Baltics."
>
>
> Hmm .... has Gorby ordered Dudaev's *division of strategic bombers* to
> nuke the "pro-independence movement in Estonia during the Singing
> Revolution" (just to make them stop singing), or what?
"Or what": he developed a bombing technique to use the strategic bombers
armed with conventional bombs to wipe mountain villages in Afganistan.
Technically was regarded almost impossible before him. Well, "Hero of
Soviet Union" wasn't given for nothing.
Probably that's right that Tartu's plaque in his memory made of black
marble after all. But hey, didn't Estonia erected a memorial to SS as well?
VM.
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
news:S6udnVrxdIT...@comcast.com:
> Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
>
>> "Alex" <Alex...@blackcity.net> rakstīja ziņojumā
>> news:1110394769.0...@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> "As if little Estonian kids could understand Kavkaz politics. As for
>> Russians kids, I'm not surprised, some I guess got wrong info. [...]
>> Besides if you ask 100-500 kids, you could always find few answers
>> that you want/need, thats main purpose of that site, "Peaceful
>> Estonian kids VS Blood hungry Russian kids"
>>
>> Little Estonian kids understand freedom.
>>
>> Oh, well -- we've already been informed by Makaron that Russians
>> drinking vodka and eating voblas are symptomatic stereotypes. Tell
>> me, why do so many suffer from Russophobia? What causes this dread
>> disease?
>
> Petrushka is playing a virgin now ...
>
> "Tell me, why do so many suffer from Antisemitism? What causes this
> dread disease?"
>
> VM.
>
>
>>
>> Makaron and Topolski do a fine job of directing us to the probable
>> causes, methinks -- it's no longer necessary to visit a Russian forum
>> to study the virus when one can find it so easily in the rhetoric
>> here.
>>
>> First you say you're not surprised by the attitudes of the Russian
>> kids, but then you hint that the answers are selected with bias in
>> mind. Which is it? Are you suggesting that many -- very many --
>> Russians are not blood hungry when it comes to the Caucasus?
>>
>> Ceterum censeo imperium Russicum esse delendum.
>>
>> /P
>>
>> P.S. Andrius Kubilius, the opposition leader in the Seimas, has
>> expressed his condolences to the Chechen people. "Kubilius stated
>> that it is a pity that Russia, driven by 'blind and bloody rage,'
>> itself eliminates the chances of holding peaceful talks with lawfully
>> elected Chechen leaders."
>>
>> http://www.elta.lt/zinute.php?inf_id=419743
I am asking for your ideas on the aetiology of this imaginary epidemic,
Makaron. Any criticism of the behavior of the Russian state or the Russian
body politic is seen by such as you to be an outbreak of "Russophobia." The
only comparison between most of what you call "Russophobia" and anti-
Semitism could be made when certain circles attempt to extend the
definition of anti-Semitism; e.g., attempts to redefine as "anti-Semitism"
any criticsm of Israel, legitmate or not.
I don't doubt that not a few people are actually Russophobes -- Henry and
Hui, for example -- but in their case the symptoms of such a disease are
clear. There's a difference between abominating Russia for what it _does_
and abominating Russians for what they _are_.
When half of Russia's population, give or take a slice of the _pirog_,
venerates the memory of Stalin, Russia _ought_ to be feared. It is, again,
a matter of digesting the history of one's nation.
Tangential to this, on aspects of anti-Semitism, I recommend "The New
Jewish Question" by Georgs Irbe. I don't agree with everything Irbe says,
but it is at least a serious attempt to discuss some of the recent
difficulties between Latvians and Jews (and they _are_ recent -- the
Latvians have been infected by anti-Semitism far less than Russians,
historically).
GK de Montréal will enjoy this article, I think -- Uno Hui will be
infuriated by the mention of Latvian criminals, I assume...
http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/g_irbe.htm
Vladimir Makarenko
> there seems to be quite a great deal of bitterness in this thread.
>
>
What you want - topic is too hot. Not something that happened some fifty
years ago.
VM.
lora...@cs.com
Well, wait no longer...
For educational purposes:
"Canada will not participate in U.S. plans to establish a ballistic
missile defense shield across North America by Sonia Chopra
Feb. 25, 2005
In major announcement, Canada distanced itself from American plans of a
missile defense system.
Canada will not participate in U.S. plans to establish a ballistic
missile defense shield across North America, Canadian Prime Minister
Paul Martin and Foreign Minister Pierre Pettigrew said. Instead, Canada
will focus on other security measures like improving border control,
bettering security at ports of entry and increasing support for
intelligence and military expenditures. Martin added that Canada would
continue to participate in the North American Aerospace Defense Command
with the United States."
...
And don't worry that what's left is too much.
Last month Canada announced a new budget for its military forces...
Some 15 Billion dollars. Not for fiscal year 2006, mind you... but for
the next *five* years.
Far be it from me to venture to say that the figure might be too paltry
(the comparative (outrageous) US military budget being some 460 Billion
this year alone) to safeguard most of North America.. but 3 billion a
year seems to indicate a strong tendency towards naive optimism.
Uno Hu
Vladimir Makarenko
> So Pollyanna, got a magic cure? Going to undo 50 years of occupation
> with a smile and a pat on the head?
>
> Stop your aisinine comments and start demanding that Russians apologise
> and pay compensation.
>
> GK
Bog shelmu metit: who is asinine now?
One hell of "professional"...
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
> Question to our brāļu tauta: I understand that Maskhadov, unlike Dudayev in
As much as I sceptical about Maskhadov - neither he took any active
participation in Lithuanian events (even though he'd been there with his
detachment and kicked some Lithunian when his bus was blocked) nor he
could he "deeply regret" something he hadn't participated .
In his interview to Russian TV in early 90ties he mentioned that briefly
but without putting ashes on his head.
VM.
The Learned Slavonic Elder of Australia
"Mr. Fun" <Funn...@WhoopieCushions.ru> wrote in message
news:8aNXd.12358$Sh5....@fe12.lga...
------------ And now a word from our sponsor ------------------
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fast, efficient and reliable. For home servers or carrier class
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Vladimir Makarenko
> "Alex" <Alex...@blackcity.net> rakstīja ziņojumā
> news:1110394769.0...@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
>
> "As if little Estonian kids could understand Kavkaz politics. As for
> Russians kids, I'm not surprised, some I guess got wrong info. [...]
> Besides if you ask 100-500 kids, you could always find few answers that
> you want/need, thats main purpose of that site, "Peaceful Estonian kids
> VS Blood hungry Russian kids"
>
> Little Estonian kids understand freedom.
>
> Oh, well -- we've already been informed by Makaron that Russians drinking
> vodka and eating voblas are symptomatic stereotypes. Tell me, why do so
> many suffer from Russophobia? What causes this dread disease?
Petrushka is playing a virgin now ...
"Tell me, why do so many suffer from Antisemitism? What causes this
dread disease?"
VM.
Alex
Pçteris Cedriòð (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
> "Alex" <Alex...@blackcity.net> rakstîja ziòojumâ
> news:1110394769.0...@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
>
> "As if little Estonian kids could understand Kavkaz politics. As for
> Russians kids, I'm not surprised, some I guess got wrong info. [...]
> Besides if you ask 100-500 kids, you could always find few answers
that
> you want/need, thats main purpose of that site, "Peaceful Estonian
kids
> VS Blood hungry Russian kids"
>
> Little Estonian kids understand freedom.
Is that why Nazis are still so popular in Estonia?
>
> Oh, well -- we've already been informed by Makaron that Russians
drinking
> vodka and eating voblas are symptomatic stereotypes. Tell me, why do
so
> many suffer from Russophobia? What causes this dread disease?
>
Your IQ is too hig for Russophobia, got a hammer?
>
> First you say you're not surprised by the attitudes of the Russian
kids,
> but then you hint that the answers are selected with bias in mind.
Which is
> it? Are you suggesting that many -- very many -- Russians are not
blood
> hungry when it comes to the Caucasus?
Well I'm wasn't surprised that site could find few nasty comments
selected from 100s of others. They even had a problem finding those
few, thats why they put one where Russian kid thought that Putin was
removed from power.
Alex.
snip.
>
> /P
>
Captain!
<lora...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:1110472086....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Captain! wrote:
> "Alex" <Alex...@blackcity.net> wrote in message
> news:1110315560....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
> > The legitimate President of Ichkeria, Aslan Maskhadov, has
reportedly
> been
> > killed by Russian troops in Tolstoy-Yurt, north of Grozny.
> > Vieglas smiltis.
> > /P
>
> Here is the body;
> http://www.lenta.ru/news/2005/03/08/body/
>
> Rest in hell bastard! Basayev is next, I hope.
>
> So dear Peteris when will the street be named after him?
>
> Alex.
>
> so i heard his bodyguard killed him by accident or something. what do
you
> know about it?
Hmmm.. two things:
1) By killing Mashkadov, Pootey has killed Chechen *moderation*.
Mashkadov was a moderate who did not sanction radical actions.
2) Mashkadov's eye was gouged out by russians. Russian barbarism lives
on. He was not killed by his bodyguards but by the explosives that the
russians used to get into his bunker.
3) (extra) 'Captain!' signs his posts as our 'half-Latvian' Alexei.
Wonder of wonders.
i have no idea what that last thing is supposed to mean.
Captain!
"«Pas de deux»" <kamou...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:x5NXd.22248$fW4.6...@news20.bellglobal.com...
> "Kvebekski" <lu...@me.ca> wrote in message
> news:IfJXd.60912$Gn2.2...@weber.videotron.net...
>>> a country with a dwindling population and overpopulated neighbors
>>> is eventually going to have to deal with the sobering contradiction
>>> between its huge territory and unparalleled wealth in natural resources,
>>> and the increasingly limited human resources available to defend it.
>>
>> I guess there's no hope for Canada then. How many decades until
>> Russia's population dwindles down to Canada's population density?
>>
>> BM
>>
>>
>> Humm. Good point.
>
> Not a good point at all. Canada is not "a country with a dwindling
> population and overpopulated neighbors".
> There is no threat to Canada's security. We should scrap our armed forces
> and spend the money on eduction and health care. I hope that's what an
> independent Québec will do.
>
> GK
hmmm is he a liberal or a quebec nationalist? what a combo. yuck!
Captain!
hmmmm.... there could be some excellent smuggling oportunities... :)
Captain!
<lora...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:1110470994.7...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Well, wait no longer...
For educational purposes:
Uno Hu
hey foreigners! i'll tell you how this country is going to be run and when
i'm done you'll bow and say , "thank you captain!".
hahahaha
Captain!
> So Pollyanna, got a magic cure? Going to undo 50 years of occupation with
> a smile and a pat on the head?
>
> Stop your aisinine comments and start demanding that Russians apologise
> and pay compensation.
>
> GK
and what makes you think that they would care what i have to say?
besides, the ukrainians would deserve compensation before you would.
Captain!
> «Pas de deux» wrote:
>
>> So Pollyanna, got a magic cure? Going to undo 50 years of occupation
>> with a smile and a pat on the head?
>>
>> Stop your aisinine comments and start demanding that Russians apologise
>> and pay compensation.
>>
>> GK
>
> Bog shelmu metit: who is asinine now?
> One hell of "professional"...
>
> VM.
>
>
this is exactly the type of behavior to expect from a seperatist: alot of
crying and constant demands for compensation.
Captain!
was that you who wrote that anti-quebec post a little farther up?
quebecophobe!
Dmitry
Pçteris Cedriòð (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
>
> You might find "Chechnya: An Honorary Baltic State" by Mel Huang
worth
> reading --
>
> http://www.ce-review.org/99/24/amber24.html
>
> Vsego horoshego,
> /P
Sveiks, Peteris
Certainly worth reading, but I also find it a little biased. May be
I'm too spoiled by BBC. I don't want to make any big statements about
this issue, which I don't don't know much about, but thought I could
comment on some quotes at the end of the article. Please do challenge
them if you disagree.
"Does Russia have to occupy all of Chechnya to catch a few terrorists,
It has been part of Russia for a long time.
"Russians need this piece of land only for oil. They want to take it by
force and therefore kill and torture innocent people."
As above. Terrorists/freedom fighters want it for the same reason.
"This is not just Russia's internal affair. It is a war which will only
make Russia bolder, if it is successful, and then nothing can guarantee
Baltic independence any more."
Independence of Baltic countries is not under threat. This is phobia.
"Chechens are right in any case, because in the contemporary world it
should be only natural that each nation decides on its own whether to
be independent or not."
Nation, but not military gangs. Was there a referendum on independence
before any actions were taken?
"Russia pokes its nose into things where it is not needed. Unless
measures are taken, World War III will probably break out soon."
In case of Chechnya, it is part of Rusiian federation. I'm not sure if
this conflict can generate WWIII.
"Chechnya has problems with Russia again. But who doesn't?"
Cumbria?
And here a few comments from Russian-language secondary school
graduates:
"If the problem of Chechnya cannot be solved peacefully, the enemy has
to be destroyed for good. Russia must act even more brutally!"
It wasn't solved so far, brutality isn't the answer.
"For each Russian soldier killed or captured, one Chechen village must
be destroyed. Only this way can Russia maintain order and its
integrity. How long can one bullshit with Chechnya?!"
This must have come from some kind of genocidal freak.
"If only Putin had not been dismissed, because he was the one who began
to lift Russia from its knees."
I thought it was Yeltsin who anounced the end of SU???
"There can be only one solution: level Chechnya to the ground, so that
there is no trace left of it, and kill all the people. That is cruel,
but war is cruel."
Clearly this one is fascist.
"There can be no state of Chechnya - this is land belonging to the
state of Russia, and Russia has the right to enforce order for normal
people to live peacefully."
This should be decided by the people of Chechnya, not Putin or Bin
Laden.
"As soon as Chechnya secedes, it will immediately bring US troops to
its territory, and together they will demolish Russia.
Bullshit, excuse my language.
The whole of Chechnya should be sent to hell so that everyone would
learn how to behave toward Russians."
Another nazi has spoken.
"Russia has no right to wage a war under the pretext of bombing
terrorists so that peaceful villages are destroyed and civilians get
killed."
Nobody has right to take people's lives.
Dmitry
> Try and learn how the "freedom fighter" earned his Lenin award and
Hero
> of Soviet Union.
Both medallions suggest to me that he was just another "war pig at the
power". Bare in mind that Putin was KGB officer.
> And of course about Estonians it's another shitty
> Baltic myth.
>
> VM.
MirTopolskiRexPrez
>"MirTopolskiRexPrez" wrote:
>>«Pas de deux» wrote:
>>>forces and spend the money on eduction and health care. I hope that's
>>>what an independent Québec will do.
>>redemocratized à la Iraq by Mad Uncle Sam. The only realistic Québec
>>solution is to vote for reunification with France and hence EU ...
> What about the unification of France, Luxembourg, Quebec, Belgium,
> Switzerland (1/2), and maybe Monaco into a single french super-state?
> Population: approximately 85 millions (excluding Départements d'outre-mer)
> Land area: approximately 2 500 000 sq.km (excluding Départements d'outre-mer
> such as Guyana, Polynesia)
Good job, Kvebekski! Paris, Monaco, Luxembourg, Guyana and Bora Bora (!)
would be the main points of world attraction, then. I would recommend
Bora Bora to replace NYC as the new UN headquarters (and French the new
UN language of course). Note that Guyana under joint French-Russian
command will be crucial for orbital & intercontinetal superpower
ballistic macho biz ... we learned that Prez Jacques already asked his
buddy Vlad for a couple of Russian Guyana-based anti-Great-Satan Topol-M
missiles ...
Kvebekski
Ok, we'll send you some weed, and cigarettes. :)
To unify such a state, it would need a new DeGaulle.
But better barter. We give you Airbus and Bombardier planes along with a
free-trade agreement with Europe, some Renault, a new fleet of Rafales and a
mutual protection pact against US invasion, and you give us New Brunswick,
Nova Scotia and Newfoundland (including Labrador). They are Euro-socialists
anyway. Oh! and Nunavut.
Dmitry
Pçteris Cedriòð (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
and
> this excellent article, which turns out to be translated by David
McDuff --
>
> http://watchdog.cz/?show=000000-000015-000006-000011&lang=1
>
> /P
David McDuff??? The expert of Russian language? I did find the
article interesting.
Kvebekski
> MirTopolskiRexPrez wrote:
> > «Pas de deux» wrote:
> >
> >> There is no threat to Canada's security. We should scrap our armed
> >> forces and spend the money on eduction and health care. I hope that's
> >> what an independent Québec will do.
> >
> >
> > Nonsense. An *independent* Québec will be immediately invaded and
> > redemocratized à la Iraq by Mad Uncle Sam. The only realistic Québec
> > solution is to vote for reunification with France and hence EU ...
>
> Does Quebec build a nuke reactor? Do they buy aluminum pipes? Night
> visio gogles?
There is already 1 nuclear reactor, but we prefer hydro and soon wind mills.
> Who would trust Canadians anyway, especially Quebies, they don't even
> speak real language up there... Who knows what they speak about in that
> dog language of them... They need guidance...Exiles telling stories
> about WMD... Time to check it out... They are f***ing frenchies anyway...
> Are Quebies shia or sunni? Doesn't really matter - will beat shit out of
> both...
LOL! Is that russian culture at work? Nobody fears Russia anymore. Even your
satellite states spit on you. But get ready, La Grande Armée with Québécois
will not be diminished by the winter in Moscow.
Kvebekski
«Pas de deux» wrote:
Well, wait no longer...
For educational purposes:
Uno Hu
Not to be part of this stupid "shield" was the second best decision Canada
made in the last decade, right after not invading Iraq. It makes almost no
difference that Canada is in it or not. The only major difference is the
political support of this attempt to lauch a new weapons race. Canada saves
its international credibility, and loses some US money doing it. But what
would we do with some green toilet paper anyway? We already have plenty of
white one. If some Euros were at stake, we may have considered.
Kvebekski
What makes you say that separatists demand compensation? What are those
compensations you are talking about? Land? Money?
MirTopolskiRexPrez
> La Grande Armée with Québécois
> will not be diminished by the winter in Moscow.
True. Once in winter OM visited Université du Québec à Montréal,
Université Laval and Université du Québec ... the weather was cold and
fabulous snowy (better than in Novosibirsk). But they served incredibly
crappy wine all the time!
Kvebekski
Why? What's the difference? Is it because it is more recent?
«Pas de deux»
hospital to withdraw your internet privileges.
GK
"Vladimir Makarenko" <maka...@popmail.med.nyu.edu> wrote in message
news:doOdnWKgHoi...@comcast.com...
«Pas de deux»
GK
<lora...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:1110470994.7...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
«Pas de deux» wrote:
Kvebekski
"MirTopolskiRexPrez" <b...@black.hole> wrote in message
LOL! Now watch for the great-satan axis reprisal :))
Kvebekski
"MirTopolskiRexPrez" <b...@black.hole> wrote in message
Hey, we have the best crappy wine in the world!
It is now decided. I'll migrate in France in less than 5 years from now.
America does not suit me anymore. The Quebec resistance is not enough. I
need a real sovereign socialist country where secularism and intellectualism
is not seen as a problem. I still need to stack some money and I'll move.
Farewell Quebec and Canada, sink as you wish.
«Pas de deux»
news:1110471426.1db8f26e6e63bd0c3d9fb0bf6d060d66@teranews...
> Tangential to this, on aspects of anti-Semitism, I recommend "The New
> Jewish Question" by Georgs Irbe. I don't agree with everything Irbe
> says,
> but it is at least a serious attempt to discuss some of the recent
> difficulties between Latvians and Jews (and they _are_ recent -- the
> Latvians have been infected by anti-Semitism far less than Russians,
> historically).
>
> GK de Montréal will enjoy this article, I think -- Uno Hui will be
> infuriated by the mention of Latvian criminals, I assume...
>
> http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/g_irbe.htm
An excellent article indeed.For far too long too many Balts have cringed
at the Jewish magicians' handling of the anti-Semitic wand: one wave in
your direction and your social and pofessional life could be ruined.
Well, no more. There are too many questions that need answers, too many
issues left too long undiscussed, too much simplification (including by
Hollywood and the mass media), too much demanding that nothing in the
Holocaust doxology can be questioned or facts checked. As the story
went, it was simpler to condemn fellow victim Balts as baddies, rather
than detract from the main story line of Jews as unmitigated victims and
heroes, never perpetrators themselves.
> Ceterum censeo imperium Russicum esse delendum.
Is this inspired by 'Carthago delenda est!'? Why "Ceterum..."?
Regards
GK de Montréal