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David McDuff  
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 More options Sep 24 2008, 4:36 pm
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics
From: David McDuff <dmcd...@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 21:36:38 +0100
Local: Wed, Sep 24 2008 4:36 pm
Subject: Open Letter
TALLINN, Sep 24, BNS - A group of Estonian and Finnish cultural
figures, scientists, journalists and politicians has sent the leaders
of the University of Helsinki a public letter comparing Johan Backman,
the author of a controversial book on Estonia that has triggered
heated debates, to deniers of Holocaust and questioning his competence
as a university teacher.
The authors of the letter addressed to the rector, chancellor and dean
of the law faculty recall that Backman on Monday presented in Tallinn
his book "The Bronze Soldier: The Backdrop and Content of the Estonian
Monument Debates," which among other things denies the Soviet
occupation of Estonia and calls the corresponding viewpoint a Nazi
myth.
They added that Backman predicts a speedy end to Estonian
independence, speaks in favor of Estonia's unification with Russia and
calls Estonia an apartheid state in both his book and his blog as well
as in public appearances. He contrasts different ethnic groups such as
Estonians, Russians, Jews and Russian Estonians, and distorts the
Estonian history.
The authors note that at the presentation of the book Backman,
diminishing the historical experience of Estonians, said it is time
for Estonians to understand that there was no Soviet occupation. He
supports his claim among other things by the Nazis' anti-Jewish
propaganda spread by Nazi Germany in occupied countries during World
War II, which he represents as the ideology of Estonians and the
Estonian state, thereby labeling people who speak about the Estonian
history and experience as disseminators of Nazi propaganda.
The letter notes that Backman lectures on sociology of law and the
specific features of the Russian and Estonian legal policies at the
University of Helsinki this academic year.
The signatories add that Backman's public statements are not a mere
expression of opinion. In their words, questioning the existence of
the Estonian state and declaring Estonia to be a part of Russia can be
considered hostile propaganda against the state and the nation.
Backman as a lecturer on Estonian and Russian legal policies can be
compared to a denier of the Holocaust teaching Jewish history at a
university, they added.
"Would that, too, be possible at the University of Helsinki?" they
asked.
The authors of the letter asked the leaders of the university how is
it possible that the University of Helsinki considers it acceptable
for subjects linked with Estonian and Russian law and policies to be
taught by a person who disseminates hostile propaganda about Estonian
history and present-day reality.
They also asked whether the university expects its teachers to be
familiar with facts and whether it intends to take a position on the
lecturer's statements.
Among the signatories were University of Helsinki researcher and noted
columnist Iivi Anna Masso, journalist, writer and film director Imbi
Paju, Finnish author Sofi Oksanen, journalist Stefan Brunow, Jewish
Estonian historian and writer Elhonen Saks, and Jevgeni
Krishtafovitsh, leader of Estonia's Russian-speaking youth association
Avatud Vabariik (Open Republic).
Suvi Salmenniemi from the University of Helsinki, researcher Anna
Rotkirch, leader of the free-thinkers' association Jussi K. Niemela,
members of the European Parliament Lasse Lehtinen and Henrik Lax,
writer Mikael Enckell, and Katri Vallaste from the Alexander Institute
also signed the letter.

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J. Anderson  
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 More options Sep 24 2008, 4:59 pm
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics
From: "J. Anderson" <anderso...@inbox.lv>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 23:59:07 +0300
Local: Wed, Sep 24 2008 4:59 pm
Subject: Re: Open Letter

"David McDuff" <dmcd...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:c49ld4djmuiietksafqekerqkgpidhglqt@4ax.com...

> In their words, questioning the existence of
> the Estonian state and declaring Estonia to be a part of Russia can be
> considered hostile propaganda against the state and the nation.

It is also a sign of mental illness. Insane persons should not teach at
universities.

I find Johan B ckman absolutely revolting. Luckily he is living in St.
Petersburg, and the likelihood that I would bump into him in Helsinki is
rather small. (I dislike having to puke in public places.)

John


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lorad  
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 More options Sep 25 2008, 12:34 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics
From: lorad <lorad...@cs.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 21:34:42 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Thurs, Sep 25 2008 12:34 am
Subject: Re: Open Letter
On Sep 24, 1:36 pm, David McDuff <dmcd...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Just great... another Swedish Stalinist.. (are they too inbred - or
what?)
Just like that perambulatory crap marxist Summerstrom (sic) that used
to post his stalinism here.

Somehow, it doesn't surprise me that he now lives in Petrograd.

The Estonians need to clean house.. and school.


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tadas.bli...@lycos.es  
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 More options Sep 25 2008, 2:14 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics
From: tadas.bli...@lycos.es
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 23:14:55 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Thurs, Sep 25 2008 2:14 am
Subject: Re: Open Letter
On Sep 24, 11:59 pm, "J. Anderson" <anderso...@inbox.lv> wrote:

In this guy's case, it is certainly no exaggeration to say he is a
stooge of Moskau and in the pay of the Kremlin.  One wonders what went
wrong with the upbringing or socialisation of people like that.  Some
of the asshole fanatics I have met in the past (e.g. lefty-trendy pro-
USSR university lecturers) seemed to have a case of stunted
development.  They were general immature (e.g. smoking dope, wearing
stupid clothes, trying to party with the students) and seemed to be
stuck in a permanent undergraduate mentality; hence the desire to be
outrageous and espouse a minority opinion, no matter how obnoxious,
ludicrous and morally indefensible it was.  For example, at the time
(late 60s, early 70s) some of these these misfits were also defending
the "right" of pedophiles to pursue their hobby, something which they
now cover up and deny.

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J. Anderson  
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 More options Sep 25 2008, 4:37 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics
From: "J. Anderson" <anderso...@inbox.lv>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 11:37:26 +0300
Local: Thurs, Sep 25 2008 4:37 am
Subject: Re: Open Letter

"lorad" <lorad...@cs.com> wrote in message

news:393b4f91-18e4-4854-ba00-f0a067daa326@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

> Just great... another Swedish Stalinist..

I could of course shut up and let him pass as a Swede, but let's be honest:
the guy is from Finland. Although he is universally despised here, and
that's probably why he has moved to Russia. He also claims that there has
been threats to his life in Finland. I can understand why.

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Eugene Holman  
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 More options Sep 25 2008, 5:50 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics
From: hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 12:50:20 +0300
Local: Thurs, Sep 25 2008 5:50 am
Subject: Re: Open Letter
In article <Y4ICk.71085$_03.38...@reader1.news.saunalahti.fi>, "J.

Anderson" <anderso...@inbox.lv> wrote:
> "lorad" <lorad...@cs.com> wrote in message
> news:393b4f91-18e4-4854-ba00-f0a067daa326@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

> > Just great... another Swedish Stalinist..

> I could of course shut up and let him pass as a Swede, but let's be honest:
> the guy is from Finland. Although he is universally despised here, and
> that's probably why he has moved to Russia. He also claims that there has
> been threats to his life in Finland. I can understand why.

Freedom of speech and opinion requires that we allow unpopular opinions to
be voiced and examined.

Although I would never deny that Estonia was occupied like Backman does,
that version of the historical narrative is one of many possible
alternatives and not the only one. Was Finland occupied by Russia? By
Sweden? By people calling no calling themselves "Finns" but who really
reveal themselves to be the decendants  of invaders who colonized Saami
lands from Estonia, Ingermanland, and Roslagen? What about the American
state of Hawaii, 120 years ago the independent Kingdom of Hawaii?

Although I would never characterize Estonia as an apartheid state, as he
also does, I know from my experience there that being a member of the
Russian-speaking minority does put a person, even if an Estonian citizen
who speaks perfect Estonian, at a certain disadvantage see e.g.
http://www.hs.fi/ulkomaat/artikkeli/Ven%C3%A4l%C3%A4iset+heikoilla+Vi...),
which I will traslate and post here within the hour.

History, politics, and sociology are largely interpretations of complex
realities, and Backman is certainly entitiled to his version of the
narrative constructed from the evidence, all the more so if he can succeed
in justifying them. If nothing else, people who proffer versions of the
historical narrative profoundly different from the one we have become used
to accepting, make us think about things we normally take for granted,
never a bad thing.

On Saturday a controversial dissertation, *Salaiset aseveljet* ['Secret
Comrades-in-Arms'], by Oula Silvennoinen, will be defended at the
University of Helsinki (https://oa.doria.fi/handle/10024/41922). It
challenges the standard view held in Finland that Finland's relationship
with Nazi Germany between 1941 and 1944 was that of a cobelligerent, a
democracy immune to Nazi ideology that was marginally involved in the
Holocaust, arguing instead that Finland was a German ally, did little to
prevent Jews in Finland from being handed over to the Germans and executd,
sometimes on Finnish territory, and even had a hitherto unknown
*Einsatzkommando Finnland* under the command of Gustav vom Felde to rid
northern Finland and Finnish-occupied Soviet Karelia of ideological and
racial enemies, particularly active communists and Soviet POWs who also
happened to be of Jewish ethnicity.

This flies in the face of views Finns have cherished about their wartime
history for two generations, but it is based on honest archival research
and the inclusion of evidence previously unavailable to historians. Not
everyone is happy about this work or Silvennoinen's conclusions, but come
this Saturday we will see if his claims are sustainable. This is what
freedom of speech is all about.

Let's be reasonable. Backman's theses, however intuitively repulsive we
might find them, will be accepted or rejected on their own merits. To
argue otherwise is to make ourselves guilty of the same mindset that we
worked so hard to overcome during the Cold War.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


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Erkki Aalto  
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 More options Sep 25 2008, 5:56 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics
From: Erkki Aalto <aa...@punk.it.helsinki.fi>
Date: 25 Sep 2008 09:56:52 GMT
Local: Thurs, Sep 25 2008 5:56 am
Subject: Re: Open Letter
David McDuff <dmcd...@yahoo.com> wrote:

-snip-

Bäckman is going to sue the authors.

--
Erkki 'Örkki' Aalto                          "Life is divided up into
Internet: Erkki.Aa...@Helsinki.FI             the horrible and the miserable"
Snail: Tietotekniikkaosasto, P.O. Box 64
       FI-00014 University of Helsinki, Finland


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kgeo...@gmail.com  
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 More options Sep 25 2008, 6:24 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics
From: kgeo...@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 03:24:50 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Thurs, Sep 25 2008 6:24 am
Subject: Re: Open Letter
On 24 Sep., 22:36, David McDuff <dmcd...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Backman on Monday presented in Tallinn his book...

So it's true that this fella was allowed in. Does anyone know - why,
and if attempts were made to keep him out?

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J. Anderson  
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 More options Sep 25 2008, 6:26 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics
From: "J. Anderson" <anderso...@inbox.lv>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 13:26:28 +0300
Local: Thurs, Sep 25 2008 6:26 am
Subject: Re: Open Letter

<kgeo...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:24148e38-1847-4404-8dcc-cbfd892d49e7@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...

> On 24 Sep., 22:36, David McDuff <dmcd...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> Backman on Monday presented in Tallinn his book...

> So it's true that this fella was allowed in. Does anyone know - why,
> and if attempts were made to keep him out?

Allowed "in" where? Estonia? His a Finnish citizen (unfortunately).

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Eugene Holman  
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 More options Sep 25 2008, 6:31 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics
From: hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 13:31:17 +0300
Local: Thurs, Sep 25 2008 6:31 am
Subject: Re: Open Letter
In article <Y4ICk.71085$_03.38...@reader1.news.saunalahti.fi>, "J.

Anderson" <anderso...@inbox.lv> wrote:
> "lorad" <lorad...@cs.com> wrote in message
> news:393b4f91-18e4-4854-ba00-f0a067daa326@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

> > Just great... another Swedish Stalinist..

> I could of course shut up and let him pass as a Swede, but let's be honest:
> the guy is from Finland. Although he is universally despised here, and
> that's probably why he has moved to Russia. He also claims that there has
> been threats to his life in Finland. I can understand why.

Freedom of speech and opinion requires that we allow unpopular opinions to
be voiced and examined.

Although I would never deny that Estonia was occupied like Backman does,
that version of the historical narrative is one of many possible
alternatives and not the only one. Was Finland occupied by Russia? By
Sweden? By people calling themselves "Finns" but who really reveal
themselves to be the decendants  of invaders who colonized Saami lands
from Estonia, Ingermanland, and Roslagen? What about the American state of
Hawaii, 120 years ago the independent Kingdom of Hawaii?

Although I would never characterize Estonia as an apartheid state, as he
also does, I know from my experience there that being a member of the
Russian-speaking minority does put a person, even if an Estonian citizen
who speaks perfect Estonian, at a certain disadvantage see e.g.
http://www.hs.fi/ulkomaat/artikkeli/Ven%C3%A4l%C3%A4iset+heikoilla+Vi...),
which I will traslate and post here within the hour.

History, politics, and sociology are largely interpretations of complex
realities, and Backman is certainly entitiled to his version of the
narrative constructed from the evidence, all the more so if he can succeed
in justifying it against criticism. If nothing else, people who proffer
versions of the historical narrative profoundly different from the one we
have become used to accepting unquestioningly, make us think about things
we normally take for granted, never a bad thing.

On Saturday a controversial dissertation, *Salaiset aseveljet* ['Secret
Comrades-in-Arms'], by Oula Silvennoinen, will be defended at the
University of Helsinki (https://oa.doria.fi/handle/10024/41922). It
challenges the standard view held in Finland that Finland's relationship
with Nazi Germany between 1941 and 1944 was that of a cobelligerent, a
democracy immune to Nazi ideology that was marginally involved in the
Holocaust, arguing instead that Finland was a German ally, did little to
prevent Jews in Finland as refugees or POWs, as opposed to its own Jewish
citizens, which it protected but who also knew that German intelligence
services and their collaborators in Finnish police structures were keeping
an eye on them, from being handed over to the Germans, and executed,
sometimes on Finnish territory, and even had a hitherto unknown
*Einsatzkommando Finnland* under the command of Gustav vom Felde to rid
northern Finland and Finnish-occupied Soviet Karelia of ideological and
racial enemies, particularly active communists and Soviet POWs who also
happened to be of Jewish ethnicity.

This flies in the face of views Finns have cherished about their wartime
history for two generations, but it is based on honest archival research
and the inclusion of evidence previously unavailable to historians. Not
everyone is happy about this work or Silvennoinen's conclusions, but come
this Saturday we will see if his claims are sustainable. This is what
freedom of speech is all about.

Let's be reasonable. Backman's theses, however intuitively repulsive we
might find them, will be accepted or rejected on their own merits. To
argue otherwise is to make ourselves guilty of the same mindset that we
worked so hard to overcome during the Cold War.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


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Eugene Holman  
View profile  
(1 user)  More options Sep 25 2008, 6:33 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics
From: hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 13:33:47 +0300
Local: Thurs, Sep 25 2008 6:33 am
Subject: Re: Open Letter
In article
<24148e38-1847-4404-8dcc-cbfd892d4...@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,

kgeo...@gmail.com wrote:
> On 24 Sep., 22:36, David McDuff <dmcd...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > Backman on Monday presented in Tallinn his book...

> So it's true that this fella was allowed in. Does anyone know - why,
> and if attempts were made to keep him out?

Should a persn be banned from entering a country because he holds views
that many people there find offensive? Isn't that what we used to cticize
the USSR and the DDR for doing?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


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kgeo...@gmail.com  
View profile  
 More options Sep 25 2008, 6:35 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics
From: kgeo...@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 03:35:07 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Thurs, Sep 25 2008 6:35 am
Subject: Re: Open Letter
On 25 Sep., 12:26, "J. Anderson" <anderso...@inbox.lv> wrote:

> <kgeo...@gmail.com> wrote in message

> news:24148e38-1847-4404-8dcc-cbfd892d49e7@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...

> > On 24 Sep., 22:36, David McDuff <dmcd...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> >> Backman on Monday presented in Tallinn his book...

> > So it's true that this fella was allowed in. Does anyone know - why,
> > and if attempts were made to keep him out?

> Allowed "in" where? Estonia? His a Finnish citizen (unfortunately).

I know, but citizenship of EU member state has not in the past stopped
Estonians from turning back agitators coming from Latvia (pctvl.lv,
www.rodina.lv, Latvian "Anti-fascist" Commitee and the likes).

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J. Anderson  
View profile  
 More options Sep 25 2008, 6:52 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics
From: "J. Anderson" <anderso...@inbox.lv>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 13:52:02 +0300
Local: Thurs, Sep 25 2008 6:52 am
Subject: Re: Open Letter

"Eugene Holman" <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote in message

news:holman-2509081250200001@ke-hupnet79-24.hupnet.helsinki.fi...

You are a marvel at making the weirdest juxtapositions. Usually it's about
some recent Russian misdeed balanced against something you dig up in US 19th
century history. This time you compare the results of impeccable scientific
research with the rants of a notorious academic troublemaker. As if these
were in any manner on a par with each other!

Bäckman denies that the Baltic countries were Soviet-occupied. Such a claim
is purely propagandistic and cannot even be dealt with in academia. It's on
the same level as denying the holocaust. Or gravity.

Regards,
John


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J. Anderson  
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 More options Sep 25 2008, 6:55 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics
From: "J. Anderson" <anderso...@inbox.lv>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 13:55:01 +0300
Local: Thurs, Sep 25 2008 6:55 am
Subject: Re: Open Letter

"Eugene Holman" <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote in message

news:holman-2509081333470001@ke-hupnet79-24.hupnet.helsinki.fi...

> In article
> <24148e38-1847-4404-8dcc-cbfd892d4...@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
> kgeo...@gmail.com wrote:

>> On 24 Sep., 22:36, David McDuff <dmcd...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> > Backman on Monday presented in Tallinn his book...

>> So it's true that this fella was allowed in. Does anyone know - why,
>> and if attempts were made to keep him out?

> Should a persn be banned from entering a country because he holds views
> that many people there find offensive? Isn't that what we used to cticize
> the USSR and the DDR for doing?

Haven't you noticed that Russia is still upholding these traditional USSR
practices?

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Eugene Holman  
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 More options Sep 25 2008, 6:59 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics
From: hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 13:59:55 +0300
Local: Thurs, Sep 25 2008 6:59 am
Subject: Re: Open Letter
In article <y6KCk.71143$_03.61...@reader1.news.saunalahti.fi>, "J.

No. They produce their own, and then...

Regards,
Eugene Holman


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Anton  
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 More options Sep 25 2008, 7:00 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics
From: Anton <anton.use...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 14:00:32 +0300
Local: Thurs, Sep 25 2008 7:00 am
Subject: Re: Open Letter
J. Anderson kirjoitti:

> <kgeo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:24148e38-1847-4404-8dcc-cbfd892d49e7@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>> On 24 Sep., 22:36, David McDuff <dmcd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Backman on Monday presented in Tallinn his book...
>> So it's true that this fella was allowed in. Does anyone know - why,
>> and if attempts were made to keep him out?
> Allowed "in" where? Estonia? His a Finnish citizen (unfortunately).

Last time I visited Estonia, it was in 2002 I think, the customs officer
(female) took my passport, looked at it, kept staring at me for half a
minute, asked me where I was born, when I was born etc, then kept
looking at me for half a minute again, looked at the passport again,
looked at me for a few seconds and gave me my passport back. I had the
feeling that either she suspected it (passport) was counterfeit, or
somebody resembling me was on some unwanted persons list. I really
expected them to say "follow us". A rather unpleasant experience
nonetheless.

--
Anton


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J. Anderson  
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 More options Sep 25 2008, 7:04 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics
From: "J. Anderson" <anderso...@inbox.lv>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 14:04:13 +0300
Local: Thurs, Sep 25 2008 7:04 am
Subject: Re: Open Letter

"Anton" <anton.use...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:gbfr0g$ip7$3@registered.motzarella.org...

Why this negative interpretation? Maybe she was fascinated by your good
looks?

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Erkki Aalto  
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 More options Sep 25 2008, 7:07 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics
From: Erkki Aalto <aa...@punk.it.helsinki.fi>
Date: 25 Sep 2008 11:07:01 GMT
Local: Thurs, Sep 25 2008 7:07 am
Subject: Re: Open Letter
Erkki Aalto <aa...@punk.it.helsinki.fi> wrote:

: David McDuff <dmcd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
: -snip-

: Bäckman is going to sue the authors.

It is getting better and better. Now Bäckman is accusing Estonia of
persecuting Neo-Nazis:

http://pronssisoturi.blogspot.com/2008/09/international-press-release...

--
Erkki 'Örkki' Aalto                          "Life is divided up into
Internet: Erkki.Aa...@Helsinki.FI             the horrible and the miserable"
Snail: Tietotekniikkaosasto, P.O. Box 64
       FI-00014 University of Helsinki, Finland


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J. Anderson  
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 More options Sep 25 2008, 7:10 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics
From: "J. Anderson" <anderso...@inbox.lv>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 14:10:42 +0300
Local: Thurs, Sep 25 2008 7:10 am
Subject: Re: Open Letter

"Eugene Holman" <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote in message

news:holman-2509081359550001@ke-hupnet79-24.hupnet.helsinki.fi...

And we help them. Or rather our consul in Piter, who didn't want to invite
Sofi Oksanen to that poesy soirée (or whatever) because he was afraid of
annoying the Russians. (Sofi Oksanen is a young Finnish-Estonian author who
has written about her family's sufferings in Soviet times. She is one of the
signatories of the anti-Bäckman appeal.)

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 More options Sep 25 2008, 7:22 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics
From: "J. Anderson" <anderso...@inbox.lv>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 14:22:59 +0300
Local: Thurs, Sep 25 2008 7:22 am
Subject: Re: Open Letter

"Erkki Aalto" <aa...@punk.it.helsinki.fi> wrote in message

news:gbfrcl$450$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi...

> Erkki Aalto <aa...@punk.it.helsinki.fi> wrote:
> : David McDuff <dmcd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> : -snip-

> : Bäckman is going to sue the authors.

> It is getting better and better. Now Bäckman is accusing Estonia of
> persecuting Neo-Nazis:

> http://pronssisoturi.blogspot.com/2008/09/international-press-release...

On Bäckman's webpage you can 'vote' for or against his interpretation of
what happened in 1940. Asking 'Did Soviet Union occupy Estonia in 1940' he
has so far received 233 (85%) YES-replies and 39 (14%) NO-replies (including
mine). I'm sure the bastard is fabricating results in the traditional
Soviet/Russian manner.

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 More options Sep 25 2008, 7:25 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics
From: "J. Anderson" <anderso...@inbox.lv>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 14:25:51 +0300
Local: Thurs, Sep 25 2008 7:25 am
Subject: Re: Open Letter

"J. Anderson" <anderso...@inbox.lv> wrote in message

news:9wKCk.71154$_03.51946@reader1.news.saunalahti.fi...

Mine was a test of course...

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kgeo...@gmail.com  
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 More options Sep 25 2008, 7:40 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics
From: kgeo...@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 04:40:07 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Thurs, Sep 25 2008 7:40 am
Subject: Re: Open Letter
On 25 Sep., 12:33, hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote:

Are you scared you'll be next? :)

There is no obligation I know of to grant entry to wierdos with
academic credentials and nutty, hostile views about country they
intend to visit. Israel and Norman Finkelstein is a good example. Just
get hold of the guy, cite security grounds and escort him out.


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 More options Sep 25 2008, 8:23 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics
From: hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 15:23:39 +0300
Local: Thurs, Sep 25 2008 8:23 am
Subject: Re: Open Letter
In article <83KCk.71140$_03.64...@reader1.news.saunalahti.fi>, "J.

Anderson" <anderso...@inbox.lv> wrote:
> "Eugene Holman" <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
> news:holman-2509081250200001@ke-hupnet79-24.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
<deletions>

> You are a marvel at making the weirdest juxtapositions. Usually it's about
> some recent Russian misdeed balanced against something you dig up in US 19th
> century history.

Russia has gotten about as far in its development as a mature state as the
US was back then, so the time depth is irrelevant. It's the "what", not
the "when".

> This time you compare the results of impeccable scientific
> research with the rants of a notorious academic troublemaker. As if these
> were in any manner on a par with each other!

Both express opinions that many people would rather not hear. That suffices.

> Bäckman denies that the Baltic countries were Soviet-occupied.

As do certain people, some of them quite rational, in all three Baltic
countries. We are obviously dealing here with issues of semantics and
interpretation. Give the guy the opportunity to defend his viewpoint, for
cryin' out loud.

> Such a claim
> is purely propagandistic and cannot even be dealt with in academia. It's on
> the same level as denying the holocaust. Or gravity.

I have to disagree with you here. Occupations are abnormal situations,
incorporations and annextaion generally end occupations, at least in the
narrow sense.

I am not going to defend Backman, but I am going to assume the role of
devil's advocate as a means of trying to understand his thinking.

Nobody denies that the USSR ousted the legitimate governments of the
Baltic countries, or to use the modern term "effected regime change", in
June 1940, replacing the legitimate regimes with governments, now
generally regarded as bogus, that were, initially at least, accepted to
some degree by the three Baltic nations. The Latvian President appealed to
his wary nation to accept the new government, and in Estonia what seemed
to be a resolution of a threat to nationaal existence was intially greeted
with relief, even if President Päts was arrested and sent into Soviet
exile.

These new harmless-looking governments arranged sham elections and quickly
negotiated to have their respective countries "apply" to join the USSR.
The application and its acceptance resulted in the incorporation of the
three countries into the USSR, a move that was not welcomed by the
majority of their populations, but one that they had few instruments to
change. I honestly do not know if occupation is the proper legal term to
use for a situation like this. Going to the inexhaustable resource of 19th
century US history, something quite similar was done in the Kingdom of
Hawaii: the government was weakened and ousted, and political intrigues
between American businessmen and certain members of the Hawaiian elite
resulted in the islands being incorportaed into the United States as a
territory, much to the distress of a considerable portion of its citizenry
which, like the Balts, were victims of the imperialist ambitions of a far
larger country and had no instruments to resist. If you are going to say
that Baltics were occupied by the Soviets in 1940, you have to say that
the Kingdom of Hawaii was first subverted by the Americans with their
creation of the Republic of Hawaii on July 4(!), 1893, the arrest and
trial of ousted Queen Lili'uokalani for treason, and the eventual
annexation of this Republic of Hawaii at the request of its government by
the United States in 1898.

In any case, if the use of the term occupation with respect to the regime
change and subsequent Soviet annexation of the Baltic countries can be
questioned, then we have a case for disputing whether applying the term
"occupation" to the entire period between 1940 and 1991 is appropriate.
The Russian position, as we all know, was that the annexation, even if
deviously done, was the work of the government that was in charge. Thus,
the German invasion, occupation, and annextion as Ostland, was a genuine
occupation, because it was a military operation with no statesmanship
being involved, but the retaking of what Moscow regarded as Soviet
territory in 1944 was *not* an occupation, but rather a re-establishement
of the *status quo ante*, no matter how deviously that had come about in
the first place.

Between the fall of 1944 and Stalin's death in 1953 the Baltics were
administered as occupied territory, and nobody other than countries in the
communist bloc regarded the Soviet presence there as legal. After 1953,
though, things changed. With the opening up of the Baltic states in 1965,
the development of tourism, and the general acceptance of the status quo
by new generations of inhabitants, both natives and migrants, the case for
speaking of an *occupation* weakened. Sweden, the UK, and even Finland,
whose president urho Kekkonen sent mixed signals to the world when he, the
only Western statesman to visit the Baltics during the Soviet period,
visited Tartu in 1965, about how the situation in the Baltics sould be
regarded in the future. By the early 1980s even the Americans were getting
used to the idea of the Baltic countries being a legitimate art of the
USSR, an issue that came up in conunction with the trial and deportation
to the USSR of Karl Linnas, an Estonian who had been commandant of a
German concentration camp during the German occupation of Estonia.

By 1988, when the people of the Baltics united in their incredible
demonstration of peaceful protest against the continued presence of their
countries in the Soviet Union, there was little talk of occupation. Rather
there was more talk of a political system that theoretically allowed a
republic to secede from the union, but practically did not provide the
political instruments for even testing whether the population would be
interested in self-determination. Gorbachev was unhappy that the Baltics
were seriously considering this option, and he tried t squelch it by
visiting Lithuania and discussing the options for "divorce" with leading
political and other leaders. It was only later, in Vilnius in January 1991
and then a few weeks later, in Riga, that blood was spilt. Even then,
these instantiations of violence demonstrated themselves to be isolated
incidents rather than standard policy, nor did they involve soldiers of a
colonial occpupying army crushing native populations. The situation bore
more similarities to civil war. There was nothing in the Baltics in 1991
comparable to the struggle against French occupation in Algeria during the
1960s or the struggle against the French and then the American occupations
in Vietnam between the 1950s and 1970s.

So, not wanting to use the word occupation does not amount to a denial of
the historical facts. According to a reasonable interpretation of the
facts, the three Baltic republics were the victims of Soviet imperialism,
a German occupation, and a Soviet reconquest of territory it had
originally stolen "fair and square". Given that life was a normal as
possible under commnist rule, that Balts were involved in the
administration and defense of their own republics as well as of the USSR
as a whole, and that the general feeling was not that they wre living
under foreign occupation, but rather that their homelands had been sucked
into state structure that allowed them to participate in its
administration and day-to-day decision making, but did not allow them the
possibility of self-determination, I can see why some people prefer ot to
use the word "occupation" to characterize such a situation. Subverted and
co-opted might be a better term. Consideration of the case for an
alternative explanation of the historical facts might teach us something.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


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kgeo...@gmail.com  
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 More options Sep 25 2008, 8:53 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics
From: kgeo...@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 05:53:36 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Thurs, Sep 25 2008 8:53 am
Subject: Re: Open Letter
On 25 Sep., 14:23, hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote:

> In article <83KCk.71140$_03.64...@reader1.news.saunalahti.fi>, "J.

> Consideration of the case for an alternative explanation of the historical facts might teach us something.

> Regards,
> Eugene Holman

Say, dear academician from Helsinki, do you subscribe to Backman's
alternative explanations of historical facts like deportations being
"necessary measures in stabilizing the country" and, for many people,
a lifesaving measure, as well? Because that might just teach "us"
something more about you.

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 More options Sep 25 2008, 9:39 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics
From: hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 16:39:30 +0300
Local: Thurs, Sep 25 2008 9:39 am
Subject: Re: Open Letter
In article
<fa87e5bf-789e-4f4f-ac72-410505663...@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,

kgeo...@gmail.com wrote:
> On 25 Sep., 14:23, hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote:
> > In article <83KCk.71140$_03.64...@reader1.news.saunalahti.fi>, "J.

> > Consideration of the case for an alternative explanation of the

historical facts might teach us something.

> > Regards,
> > Eugene Holman

> Say, dear academician from Helsinki, do you subscribe to Backman's
> alternative explanations of historical facts...

I think that I made it clear that I was assuming the role of devil's
advocate and do not subscribe to Backman's views.

> like deportations being
> "necessary measures in stabilizing the country" and, for many people,
> a lifesaving measure, as well? Because that might just teach "us"
> something more about you.

I took major flack in thus group a few years ago when I made a claim of
that type. Interestingly, it was suggested by an article I had read in an
Estonian  newspaper a few days before.

I had visited Estonia on June 15 of whatever year it was and was deeply
moved by the commemoration of the victims of the massive deportations that
had taken place on that day in 1941, precisely a week before the Nazis
attacked the USSR. The article had noted that the reality was more
complex. Despite the fact that people were forcibly removed from their
homes and sent off to locations unknown traveling in and winding up in
unspeakable conditions, for certain groups among them the tragedy was a
blesing in disguise. The Jews, political radicals, and any healthy males
between the ages of 14 and 30, the article argued, stood a far higher
chance of surviving until 1945 in Siberian exile than they would have in
an Estonia occupied by hostile foreign forces and a passageway for
advancing and retreating armies.

For presenting this viewpoint for consideration I was excoriated.
Nevertheless, I am certain that the actuarial tables support it. The three
Baltic countries were, after Poland and Germany, the worst places to be
during WW II, particularly if you were a Jew, a person with radical (=
leftist leaning) political beliefs, or a young man of draftable age.
Former Estonian President Lennart Meri expressed the view several times
that his famly had been fortunate, all things considered, to have sat out
the war in Siberian exile where they had a higher chance of surviving the
war than they would have had in Estonia.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


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