Bodycount-neorealism (German)
MTRP™
> SPIEGEL: Und die Erschießungen während der Großen Säuberungen?
> Overy: Die erfolgten außerhalb des Gulags. Die angeblichen Spione
> und Agenten wurden in absurden Verfahren verurteilt und dann sofort
> liquidiert. Das war hunderttausendfacher Justizmord. Aber wer eine
> Haftstrafe erhielt, kam nach Sibirien und hatte dort eine höhere
> Überlebenschance als Häftlinge in deutschen KZ.
>
> SPIEGEL: Lässt sich das quantifizieren?
> Overy: Wir haben nicht für alle KZ die exakten Zahlen, aber in den Fällen,
> in denen wir sie haben, liegt die Todesquote bei 40 Prozent, im Gulag
> hingegen bei 14 Prozent.
>
> SPIEGEL: Es wird immer wieder behauptet, im Gulag seien rund 20
> Millionen Menschen umgekommen.
> Overy: Das sind Phantasiezahlen. Ich gehe von 2,5 Millionen Opfern
> in dem Zeitraum zwischen 1930 und Stalins Tod 1953 aus. Diese Zahlen
> basieren auf internen Angaben der Gulagverwaltung. Nicht mitgerechnet
> sind diejenigen, die an den Spätfolgen der Haft oder auf dem Weg in die
> Lager starben. Wohlgemerkt, ich spreche hier nicht von den Opfern des
> Stalinismus insgesamt, sondern von denen des Gulags.
lora...@cs.com
MTRP™ wrote:
> http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,402650-2,00.html
'Neo-realism' is correct..
Only in overly brainwashed germany - where they send historical
discussion to prison - could such crap pass as 'history'.
There are so many things flat-out wrong with mdm Ovary's view of
History, that one doesn't know exactly where to start... And then to
have it all coated up in a nice layer of condescending german
supercilliousness... is more than bearable.
It's like having a glassy eyed moonie explain to you that free will
ain't all it's cracked up to be.
«Pas de deux»
the mutual attacks. The pact of the dictators held only two years; in
1941 Hitler attacked the Soviet Union. Was the war between both
unavoidable?
Overy: Yes, because Hitler wanted to dominate Europe and exterminate the
so-called Judaeo bolshevism. Stalin however assumed Hitler and the west
would be exhausted in wars among themselves, and the Soviet Union could
then 'liberate' in Europe the proletariat, as it called it.
So what? Thank goodness for Eu and NATO to keep such troublemakers in
their place now.
<lora...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:1140961812....@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
MTRP™
> > Der Spiegel: In 1939 Hitler and Stalin divided Eastern Europe to stop
> > the mutual attacks. The pact of the dictators held only two years; in
> > 1941 Hitler attacked the Soviet Union. Was the war between both
> > unavoidable?
> > Overy: Yes, because Hitler wanted to dominate Europe and exterminate the
> > so-called Judaeo bolshevism. Stalin however assumed Hitler and the west
> > would be exhausted in wars among themselves, and the Soviet Union could
> > then 'liberate' in Europe the proletariat, as it called it.
> So what? Thank goodness for Eu and NATO to keep such troublemakers in
> their place now.
Yup. In the White House, Wash. DC.
lora...@cs.com
«Pas de deux» wrote:
> Der Spiegel: In 1939 Hitler and Stalin divided Eastern Europe to stop
> the mutual attacks. The pact of the dictators held only two years; in
> 1941 Hitler attacked the Soviet Union. Was the war between both
> unavoidable?
> Overy: Yes, because Hitler wanted to dominate Europe and exterminate the
> so-called Judaeo bolshevism. Stalin however assumed Hitler and the west
> would be exhausted in wars among themselves, and the Soviet Union could
> then 'liberate' in Europe the proletariat, as it called it.
>
> So what? Thank goodness for Eu and NATO to keep such troublemakers in
> their place now.
The EU is innefective, socilaist, and sux.. and is controlled by
unelected unknowns. Putting one's trust into such a construct is
foolish madness.
Nah...
This is more to the point of brainwashed german (EU) idiot's history:
"MIRROR: If one follows your argumentation, the purges in the Soviet
Union might have never stopped.. simply because there is no absolute
security possible for conspiracy theorists.
Overy: It was indeed difficult to stop the process. But Stalin had
recognized by 1938 that the things had gotten out of control. Those
persecuting agents, were finally arrested and retired."
..Something which is a TOTAL and OBVIOUS LIE.
If anyone should be sent to prisons for distorting truth, it should be
klauns like this Ovary.
MTRP™
> > "SPIEGEL: If one follows your argumentation, the purges in the Soviet
> > Union might have never stopped.. simply because there is no absolute
> > security possible for conspiracy theorists.
> > Overy: It was indeed difficult to stop the process. But Stalin had
> > recognized by 1938 that the things had gotten out of control. Those
> > persecuting agents, were finally arrested and retired."
> ..Something which is a TOTAL and OBVIOUS LIE.
No, it's merely a half-truth. Back in 1938 Stalin executed Ezhov & Co
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Nikolai_Jezhov.jpg
whose NKVD was responsible for "uncontrolled" purges of the 1930s,
and replaced them by Beria & Co
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ac.beria3.jpg
whose renewed NKVD/MVD proved more economical and sophisticated.
Reportedly Stalin subscribed to Trotsky's theory (without Trotsky) of
permanent revolution that required such turns in the name of the
eternal fight for progress, etc.
vello
More probably there was no ideology involved, just anyone sitting too
long in too high gets his bullet. This way it was impossible for anyone
to become dangerously popular in Party elite.
lora...@cs.com
MTRP™ wrote:
> lora...@cs.com wrote:
> > > Overy: It was indeed difficult to stop the process. But Stalin had
> > > recognized by 1938 that the things had gotten out of control. Those
> > > persecuting agents, were finally arrested and retired."
> > ..Something which is a TOTAL and OBVIOUS LIE.
>
> No, it's merely a half-truth. Back in 1938 Stalin executed Ezhov & Co
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Nikolai_Jezhov.jpg
> whose NKVD was responsible for "uncontrolled" purges of the 1930s,
> and replaced them by Beria & Co
Ovary 'half-truth' ? Ok then.. Which half of german history can be
trusted?
Since when does one have to filter history books to determined what is
crap and what is not? Ridiculous.
Bloody Yezhov gone and bloody Beria replaces him... for more bloody
murdering.
Ovary is a poor excuse for historian and german history is a poor
excuse for real History.
It's no wonder they imprison questioners of german history in
germany... it's the only way german idiocy can survive.
lora...@cs.com
vello wrote:
> More probably there was no ideology involved, just anyone sitting too
> long in too high gets his bullet. This way it was impossible for anyone
> to become dangerously popular in Party elite.
Could be..
Or it could be that Stalin started with his purges of Jewish chekists
early. Yezhov was Jewish of couse..
Or ir could be that Yezhov was making and flying paper airplanes around
the room while Stalin was sitting at the head of the table in Yezhovs
last meeting with him. (true story)
In any event it is good that the bloody Yezhov got his reward.
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
lora...@cs.com wrote:
[snip]
> Since when does one have to filter history books to determined [sic] what is
> crap and what is not?
Ever since the first histories were written. Herodotus, "the father of
history," is also known as "the father of lies."
/P
lora...@cs.com
I would have expected better from germanic uuber-historians.
They, at least, have the benefit of alternative first-hand sources in
this day of universal connectivity. But purposefully, dullards like
this Ovary *choose* to ignore them - anyway.
Poor Herodotus gets a bum rap for trying to write the first ever
comprehensive History.
His personal accounts of history gained from witness testimony were
always accurate.. it's just the 'filler' that he had to relying on from
other sources regarding places that he had not visited (such as
'Hyperborea') that have sullied his rep.
MTRP™
Hey, Overy is British. German historians (et al) have no balls to make
ANY statements these days ... or even comment on such. They kinda
behave like contemporary Muslim scholars ... there are so many taboos
around that the only way to survive is to repeat "Allah is great".
lora...@cs.com
MTRP™ wrote:
> lora...@cs.com wrote:
> > Ovary 'half-truth' ? Ok then.. Which half of german history can be
> > trusted?
>
> Hey, Overy is British. German historians (et al) have no balls to make
> ANY statements these days ... or even comment on such. They kinda
> behave like contemporary Muslim scholars ... there are so many taboos
> around that the only way to survive is to repeat "Allah is great".
Yeah? Well I note that dirty Shpiegel printed it anyway for domestic
german purposes.
(even as you posted it here for your russian purposes)
Britain.. where a lot of labourites still call each other 'comrade' and
carry red banners, and fine lord mayors for references to nazism - even
if such were made in the perjorative.
A country that still believes that 'Monty' beat the Axis bloody all by
his little self.
«Pas de deux»
news:1141021622.6...@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Written history consists of the lies told by the victors. (who
controlled the governmenent and hence the printing presses, etc....)
Dmitry
> Since when does one have to filter history books to determined what is
> crap and what is not? Ridiculous.
>
> Bloody Yezhov gone and bloody Beria replaces him... for more bloody
> murdering.
Yezhov replaced Dzerdzhinsky, or was Yagoda somewhere in between?
History was constantly re-written since it was first written, Soviet
history is the champion in "re-writingship" contest.
This might be of some interest to you
http://www.geocities.com/redcomrades/yezhov.html (without any reference
to the above topic).