Goodbye Moscow. (for those who are interested in Russian things)
Dmitry
Constantinople Church. Senior members of the Diocese and Bishop Basil
have decided that it is necessary to move away from the Moscow
Patriarchate in order to preserve what exists in this country.
Here are couple of quotes from the letter I received today.
"There are many in the newly liberated Church in Russia who do not or
cannot understand the different situation in which we find ourselves in
Great Britain and in Western Europe. This has lead to an attempt to
impose, with a heavy hand, Russianess which does not fit with the local
Russian Orthodox Church set up in this country."
"There is also a section of the present Church Hierarchy in Moscow
which seeks to impose a firm hand on parishes and dioceses across
Western Europe which is perceived as oppressive. We feel unable to
accept and collude with this. It is a misguided quest to make all
things Russian and conformed to what is in reality a non Orthodox mind
set".
I trust that the Bishop has made a right decision.
Sorry for "out of topic", but I thought this info might interest some
of scb readers.
vello
The same happens in Estonia about 75 years ago: somebody in Kremlin
thinks that Moscow Patriarchate must be KGB's tool in other countries
where orthodox faith is presented.
Dmitry
That "somebody in Kremlin" must be very wrong. British Church has
split from Moscow and there is NOTHING they can do about it.
Here is an interview with Metropolitan of Estonia 4 years ago:
AFTER THE REGISTRATION OF MOSCOW PATRIARCHATE JURISDICTION
An interview by Mrs. Edith Ulm with His Eminence Metroplitan Stephanos
of Tallinn and All Estonia
Question: Metropolitan Stephanos, one of the most surprising events of
last month in Estonia was the registration of the Moscow Patriarchate
Church structure under the name Estonian Orthodox Church of the Moscow
Patriarchate. Many Orthodox have certainly questions, doubts and
guesses about that registration. For that reason I ask Your Eminence to
shed a little more light on this matter.
Answers:
1) Concerning the registration of the jurisdiction of the Moscow
Patriarchate in Estonia
Estonia is a state of right. Both private persons and organizations
must be subject to the laws of the state. Keeping this in mind, the
registration of the local structure of the Moscow Patriarchate was
totally inevitable. Consequently, this registration is a positive act
from our point of view.
We must understand that we live in another epoch than our ancestors.
The modern democratic states have the duty to adhere strictly to the
human rights and the possibility of everybody to practise his religion.
There are 42 different religions in Estonia (according to official
statistics of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, there were 147 000
Orthodox in Estonia in March 2002. Of these, 127 000 are mostly of
Russian, Byelorussian and Ukrainian descent, and 20 000 are Estonians),
half of which recognize the Bible as the basis of their faith. It is
clear that the government cannot control the inner principles of all
these denominations, including their ecclesiastical and canonical
schemes. The function of the government is to organize the society
according to the laws and to protect the liberties of the people living
in our country.
Clause 40 of the Constitution of Estonia specifies that the
registration of a religious body in Estonia is only administrative and
does not mean an involvement of the government in doctrinal, canonical
and other internal matters of a given religious organization. The
registration should be taken first of all as routine act of civil law.
It is enough to read the press release from April 17 of the Ministry of
internal Affairs to be convinced that by this, the Moscow Patriarchate
cannot legalize its canonical, ecclesiastical or historical claims in
Estonia.
2) Concerning the properties
What the media say, especially if they do not take precautions to get
information well, is one thing; the reality is another.
In 1993 a court judgment, confirmed in 1994 by the Supreme Court,
recognized our Church as the lawful subject for the return of all
Orthodox ecclesiastical properties nationalized during the Soviet
occupation. I have nothing to add to that.
This being so, we have always adopted a positive attitude vis-à-vis
our Orthodox brothers of the Moscow Patriarchate. So far they have used
our properties - places of worship and others - without any obstacles.
At least a minimum of gratitude could be expected from them; however,
they have none and this is quite regrettable.
Currently, a commission of our Church is charged to find, together with
the representatives of the Government, the best possible solution in
the matter of the properties claimed by the Moscow Patriarchate. Once
this commission has arrived at concrete conclusions, we will convene
our General Assembly since only it has got the capacity to make a
definitive decision in this question. All the remainder is just vain
chattering which aims at maintaining a passionate climate, which is as
useless as it is harmful. You understand very well that I have no will
to enter into that game.
Last, regarding our historical property on Pikk street in Tallinn, I am
not willing to make concessions. Of course, arrangements with Tallinn
town are always possible, provided that they lie within the scope of
law and justice.
3) Is something changed for us after the registration of the Moscow
Patriarchate diocese?
Sincerely, I do not see what could disturb us. We exist only by the
will of God and not because political circumstances of the moment
favours it or not. If we really are of Christ, what do we have to fear
? If our priests serve the Church with love, if our faithful take care
of their parishes with confidence and enthusiasm, all the remainder
will be given us in surplus. Though ransacked spiritually,
intellectually and materially, our Church managed to pass the ordeals
and persecutions with dignity. Justice and peace are there for those
who have got courage and will. Therefore, let me repeat once again, we
have nothing to fear or disturb us.
The history is unfortunately there. We must learn its lesson with a
dispassionate and constructive spirit. The Moscow Patriarchate cannot
act as if nothing happened in this country. Its iniquitous and brutal
decision by which our Church was dissolved on March 9, 1945, is a fact
that cannot be put into brackets. In spite of exiles, deportations of
populations, closing of churches and liquidation of parishes,
especially the Estonian ones, our Church was not eradicated from
Estonia. And if we exist today its not only because we had the Church
Administration in exile (in Stockholm, Sweden), but that all the time
there were Orthodox people here, who kept the Church alive. The 1996
Zurich agreements between the Patriarchates of Constantinople and
Moscow led to the current ecclesiastical situation. By these agreements
Moscow recognizes the Orthodox Church of Estonia (EAOK) and
Constantinople admits the existence of a jurisdiction of Moscow
Patriarchate in our canonical territory. It is not an ideal one, but at
least it has the merit of offering temporarily a viable and peaceful
space to both one and the other. Still, it is necessary to respect them
strictly. That is not the case everywhere.
But one day, whether some like it or not, it will be necessary to
confirm more strictly to the sense of the sacred canons of the Orthodox
Church: only one local Church in one country. That will be possible if
the hearts of all of us are well disposed.
The speeches of hatred, the attitudes of exclusion and fanaticism that
one meets here or there are sins that hurt Orthodoxy not only in
Estonia, but every Orthodox. It is high time for them to cease.
For my part, and all can witness to this, I have always carefully
avoided provocations and attitudes that can offend our brothers of the
Moscow Patriarchate. But there is a limit to everything. I thus
solemnly invite Metropolitan Cornelius to take necessary steps for the
restoration of full communion between us, as the Zurich agreements
require it, so that we can finally together witness, as is due, to our
common faith in true evangelic fraternity.
Given in Tallinn on May 27, 2002 for the newspaper "Metropoolia".
Peter
Pretty funny,
"attempt to impose, with a heavy hand, Russianess"
How dare, they impose "Russianess" on Russians?
Recently Russians (members of that church) already protested against
this silly move, this ruling could lead to violence.
Thats church without Russians would be like gay bar without gays :)
Russians will fight against this rule but if they lose, most probably
will leave! Then we'll see how Brits care about "Constantinople Church"
Peter.
------------------------
Goodbye Moscow. (for those who are interested in Russian things)
Group: soc.culture.baltics Date: Tue, Jun 27, 2006, 4:43pm (EDT-3) From:
dmitrijs...@inbox.lv (Dmitry)
lora...@cs.com
Dmitry wrote:
> Russian Orthodox Church in Britain is splitting from Moscow and joining
> Constantinople Church. Senior members of the Diocese and Bishop Basil
> have decided that it is necessary to move away from the Moscow
> Patriarchate in order to preserve what exists in this country.
Yes.. no one cares about russkie crap anymore.
Post this off-topic thinly veiled russian propaganda elsewhere.
Ask KGB Colonel and orthodox leaderAlexei II if you need guidance as to
where.
Vladimir Makarenko
What is your rank in KGB?
VM.
darsi...@comcast.net
history in the Baltics along with no small influence on its politics -
religion in general being a significant player.
What I consider notable is the perceived - and now apparently real
conflict between the Russian Orthodox Church abroad and its Moscow
based leadership - to the point where the Church parishes in the west
find themselves with no other choice other than to divorce themselves
from Moscow.
Now the Orthodox Church is one of the keystones of Russian identity -
worldwide. When that starts to show cracks - then one has to consider
that world Russian dissatisfaction with Moscow may be growing. Moscows
isolation is growing from the inside out.
Vidas
Peter
I dont think its off topic at all. The Orthodox Church has centuries of
history
- to the point where the Church parishes in the west find themselves
with no other choice other than to divorce themselves from Moscow.
Now the Orthodox Church is one of the keystones of Russian identity -
worldwide. When that starts to show cracks - then one has to consider
that world Russian dissatisfaction with Moscow may be growing. Moscows
isolation is growing from the inside out.
Vidas>>
Bull! Read below, hardly dissatisfaction with Moscow. Major problem was,
70 years of communism in Russia.
Talks on reunification of Russian Orthodox Church and Church Abroad open
in Moscow
26.06.2006, 17.28
MOSCOW, June 26 (Itar-Tass) - Talks on issues in relations between the
Russian Orthodox Church and the Church Abroad began in Moscow on Monday.
The key task is the finalisation of an act on canonical communication,
the passing of which will mean the restoration of unity of the Russian
Church.
An official of the Moscow Patriarchy's department of relations between
Orthodox churches told Itar-Tass that one of lingering issues was the
fate of parishes of the Church Abroad that formed in Russia in the
1990s.
The department's chief Archpriest Nikolai Balashov expressed the hope
that "agreeing upon the disputed questions will not become protracted".
He said that a possibility of serving liturgies and making communion
jointly in churches of the Moscow Patriarchy and the Church Abroad would
appear before final settlement of remaining issues.
Archbishop Mark of Berlin and Germany leads a delegation of the Church
Abroad.
He admitted at a meeting of the All-Abroad Assembly in San Francisco in
May that the formation of the foreign parishes in a Russia was a
mistake.
The delegation comprises priests from the US and Germany.
Archbishop Innokeny of Korsun, who is manager of the Moscow Patriarchy'
s parishes in France, heads its commission.
The talks in Moscow's St. Daniel Monastery will continue for a week.
Peter
(Vidas, here is another article to disproof your constant russophobia,
perhaps you shouldn't make comments about things YOU DON'T KNOW! You're
not Hu, you know )
Russian Orthodox Church Abroad Finds Its Way Home.
by J. Grant Swank
Jun 15, 2006
Those Russian Orthodox believers who did not trust the same church name
in Moscow's regime -- because of atheism being the "state church" --
now confess worldwide that times and hearts have changed.
The Russian Orthodox believers outside Russia find their way back to
Moscow and environs, believing they can trust the Russian Orthodox
Church leadership within Russia. It takes time. It takes
dialogue. And it takes the discernment of the Holy Spirit.
But by now those outside Russia proper have concluded they can "come
back home".
According to Religion New Service's Nate Herpich, those Russian Orthodox
congregations outside Russia have numbered 400 congregations
globally. They have fewer than 200,000 members totally.
The Moscow Patriarchate has 19,000 parishes and 80 million members.
But now there will be no separation of the statistics. For what
numbers mean to God, they will all come together as one list.
Hopefully, that list will be defined as ardent biblical believers moving
forward with the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Continue reading this article below
"Leaders of an exiled overseas Russian Orthodox Church have unanimously
voted to reunify with the Moscow-based Russian Orthodox Church, ending a
split that began with the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution."
"The Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (also known as the Church
Abroad) was founded in 1920 by Russian refugees who wanted to preserve a
church that was free from communist control. The exiled church
accused clergy in the Russian Orthodox Church of conspiring with the
Soviet regime, and even in the decade since the fall of communism
continued to maintain its distance from the Moscow Patriarchate."
"The vote by the church's Council of Bishops -- convening for the first
time in over 30 years and only the fourth time ever -- followed the
recommendations of the denomination's All-Diaspora Council, which met
May 7-14 in San Francisco."
Copyright © 2006 by J. Grant Swank, Jr.
Peter
Dmitry,
I couldn't find any recent news about this "new" rule, perhaps you
posted old article? Next time post entire article with dates on it. Its
kind of strange that you selected certain quotes just to prove your
point, so unlike you.
Perhaps you're still afraid of Gorbachev's dictatorship? Move on..:)
Peter.
Dmitry
Peter wrote:
> Pretty funny,
>
> "attempt to impose, with a heavy hand, Russianess"
>
> How dare, they impose "Russianess" on Russians?
Most members of this Church are British. Only recently the proportion
of Russians has increased. Mother Maria Rule, one of the senior nuns
in this Church said: -"We must remember that Orthodoxy by its very
being, is universal; it has its local expression in the countries where
it is located, and to be truly itself, it must take root in the local
culture and permeate that culture with the fullness and the richness of
the Orthodox Christian Faith".
> Recently Russians (members of that church) already protested against
> this silly move, this ruling could lead to violence.
I don't think we are going to see any violence over this issue in UK.
>
> Thats church without Russians would be like gay bar without gays :)
It would be the Church without any pressure or influence from Moscow on
any level, especially financial and nationalistic. Those Russian
newcomers who influenced this pressure (mainly on the London parish)
can start their own Diocese if they are so passionate about it.
Perhaps Moscow Patriarchate will finance building new places of worship
for them, I don't know?
> Russians will fight against this rule but if they lose, most probably
> will leave! Then we'll see how Brits care about "Constantinople Church"
This Church is moving into the Russian Archdiocese of Western Europe.
It is an Exarchate of the Patriarch of Constantinople with near full
autonomy and there will be no interference from Constantinople.
>
>
> Peter.
>
Dmitry
Could it be that the Church mentioned in two articles you have posted
is the Russian Orthodox Church in Exile? If this is the case, it is a
different Church from the one I have posted about.
Peter wrote:
> Dmitry,
>
> I couldn't find any recent news about this "new" rule, perhaps you
> posted old article? Next time post entire article with dates on it. Its
> kind of strange that you selected certain quotes just to prove your
> point, so unlike you.
I apologise if I didn't mention that they were quotes from the letter I
received by post from local priest. It was dated 24th June 2006. The
letter was rather long, so I didn't bother re-typing all of it. The
letter outlined the situation and explained the reasons for this move.
>
> Perhaps you're still afraid of Gorbachev's dictatorship? Move on..:)
I have always valued Gorby's contribution to the fall of Soviet Union
-:))
Dmitry
Peter wrote:
> (Vidas, here is another article to disproof your constant russophobia,
> perhaps you shouldn't make comments about things YOU DON'T KNOW! You're
> not Hu, you know )
Peter,
Vidas has made a precise conclusion and it can hardly be classified as
"russophobia".
Peter
<<From: dmitrijs...@inbox.lv (Dmitry)
Could it be that the Church mentioned in two articles you have posted is
the Russian Orthodox Church in Exile? If this is the case, it is a
different Church from the one I have posted about.>>
Doesn't matter, read below two articles.
It looks like typical power struggle between Egypt born Bishop Basil/Co.
VS "pro-Russian" forces, which includes "considerable part of its clergy
have remained faithful to the Russian Church."
"Adherents in the Orthodox church in Britain have leapt from around
3,000 to more than 100,000 since the collapse of communism."
Dmitry, who do you think those 100 000 Adherents are, or come from? Not
hard guess, right? Most of them are against this rule/move, YOU're in
tiny minority.
Bishop Basil simply felt like he was losing his influence within Church,
because of recent arrival of so many Russians. Thats why Basil wanted to
switch from Russian Orthodox to Constantinople Orthodox.
Peter.
Orthodox Church in conflict over deposed UK bishop -16/06/06
The Russian Orthodox Church has rejected a decision by the
Istanbul-based Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople to extend its
jurisdiction over the deposed head of the Russian church's diocese in
Britain, writes Jonathan Luxmoore for Ecumenical News International.
The Ecumenical Patriarchate announced on 8 June 2006 it had accepted the
deposed prelate, the former Archbishop Basil of Sergievo, as an
auxiliary bishop after he was sacked in May 2006 by Moscow Patriarch
Alexei II.
But in a 12 June statement, the Russian church said the move was invalid
because it had not given permission for Bishop Basil to transfer his
allegiance.
"The issue of a letter of release is an indispensable necessary
condition for a bishop's canonically valid move to the jurisdiction of
another local Orthodox church," the Russian statement said.
"Since such a letter was not given to Bishop Basil (and could not be
given, since no request for it was made by the Holy Patriarchate of
Constantinople), Bishop Basil remains a bishop of the Russian Orthodox
Church in retirement pending a final consideration of his case."
The Russian church had forbidden Basil to join another patriarchate
until a commission had "completed its investigation into recent events"
in the British diocese.
Egyptian-born Basil was dismissed after asking Moscow to be allowed to
transfer his allegiance to Istanbul-based Ecumenical Patriarch
Bartholomeos I, seen by some as the most senior Christian Orthodox
leader in the world.
Basil said his request followed a campaign against him by Russians in
Britain.
Meanwhile, Basil's successor at the head of the diocese of Sourozh, as
the British section of the Russian church is called, has summoned a
general council in London for 17 June.
The successor, Archbishop Vladyko Innokentii, warned those failing to
attend that they risked being deemed to have left the Russian church.
"I would urge anyone who wishes to participate in this meeting, but who
for valid reasons is unable to attend, to send their apology for
absence," he said. "Those who fail to attend the diocesan assembly
without such an apology evidently do not see the future of their church
life as being within the Sourozh diocese of the Moscow Patriarchate, and
this will be noted."
Background by Martin Revis, ENI
On 14 May 2006, the Russian Orthodox Church head in Britain, Archbishop
Basil had been told by the man replacing him that he had been sacked
from his post after the London cleric sought to go under the
jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarch in Istanbul.
A decree was read to the congregation at the conclusion of a three-hour
service at the Cathedral of the Dormition and All Saints in London.
In an earlier letter to Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia, Alexei II
that triggered the action, Bishop Basil had complained of the Moscow
Patriarchate supporting some among a new generation of Russians arriving
in Britain working against him in the diocese.
Adherents in the Orthodox church in Britain have leapt from around 3,000
to more than 100,000 since the collapse of communism.
The order by Alexei II, was read through a translator, the Rev Michael
Gogoleff, by his replacement Archbishop Vladyko Innokentii, who is in
charge of parishes in France that adhere to the Moscow Patriarchate.
It said: "Bishop Basil has been released from his duties as
administrator of the Diocese of Sourozh [as the British diocese is
called] and sent into retirement. He remains a bishop of the Moscow
Patriarchate. He is forbidden to join another Patriarchate until a
commission headed by Archbishop Innokentii has completed its
investigation into recent events in the Diocese of Sourozh. All will be
welcome to express their views."
Born in Alexandria, Egypt in 1938, Bishop Basil was raised and educated
in the United States, before going to Britain in 1966.
He said in his reply: "I believe that the present decree is not based on
a consideration of all relevant evidence and that I am therefore
appealing at once to the Ecumenical Patriarch" who is based in Istanbul
and considered by many to be the most senior of Orthodox patriarchs.
The dismissal followed Basil's refusal to go to Moscow to discuss the
situation in the British diocese if he retracted a letter sent to
Patriarch Bartholomeos I of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of
Constantinople. In it, Basil asked for his clergy and adherents to come
under the jurisdiction of the Istanbul-based Patriarch.
[With acknowledgements to ENI. Ecumenical News International is jointly
sponsored by the World Council of Churches, the Lutheran World
Federation, the World Alliance of Reformed Churches, and the Conference
of European Churches]
Second article.
26 June 2006, 14:46
Russian Orthodox Church hopes for successful canonical resolution of
crisis in Sourozh diocese
Moscow, June 26, Interfax - The Moscow Patriarchate hopes that the
crisis in the Sourozh diocese will be successfully resolved and notes
that a considerable part of its clergy have remained faithful to the
Russian Church.
'What is important for us is that a considerable part of the community
believed it their duty to declare their faithfulness to the Moscow
Patriarchate', said in an interview to Interfax Rev. Mikhail Dudko,
Moscow Patriarchate Department for External Church Relations secretary
for church-society relations, who has participated in the work of the
commission for examining the causes of the Sourozh crisis.
He said that the diocesan assembly held on June 17 had a quorum of the
clergy prescribed the Sourozh statutes. 'It alone suggests that a
considerable part of the clergy associate their fate with the Moscow
Patriarchate', Father Mikhail stressed.
He mentioned among them the oldest cleric of the diocese, Dean
Archpriest Benedict Ramsden, who was elected moderator of the assembly,
Archpriest John Lee, rector of the Cathedral in London, Father Raphael
Armur, rector of the parish in Cambridge, and many others.
He added that 'the situation is developing and it is too early to draw
any conclusions'.
Answering the question about the impact the Sourozh crisis might make on
relations between Moscow and Constantinople, the priest noted that there
was a difference in the positions of the two Churches concerning the
validity of Bishop Basil's move to the jurisdiction of Constantinople.
'Nevertheless, I do not think the situation is hopeless. We hope for a
successful canonical resolution of the conflict', Father Mikhail said
darsi...@comcast.net
Peter wrote:
> (Vidas, here is another article to disproof your constant russophobia,
> perhaps you shouldn't make comments about things YOU DON'T KNOW! You're
> not Hu, you know )
>
Constant Russophobia ?
Those Orthodox parishes abroad (one of which is very close to where I
live) have members who left Russia and questioned the authority of the
Moscow Russian Orthodox leadership during soviet times for a reason.
One of them being the Moscow Orthodox leaderships capitulation to
soviet rule and atheism as a belief system - believing that the Church
heirarchy had come under the influence of the Bolshevics. It undeniably
had.
Others find the Russian Orthodox Churches participation in the limiting
of Christian (and non Christian) religious rights in Russia today to be
equally abhorrent - essentially reminding them of the Moscow Orthodox
Churches previous weaknesses when under political pressure from the
Kremlin. They folded like a starched dinner napkin then and they dont
seem to be any different now.
Vidas
Dmitry
arrived to UK, not necessarily the number of those who attend church
services. I haven't heard of many new churches built to accommodate an
extra 97000 participants in the recent years.
In my local church the number has increased by approx. 50% in the past
6-7 years; some of them are newly arrived Russians, some are English
and some from other Eastern European countries. Of course this doesn't
represent what is happening in London where most of newly arrived
Russians are settled. As for my local Parish I do not expect any
noticeable exodus. All local priests are going with Basil and I'm sure
the vast majority of Church members will remain loyal to local clergy
as opposed to Moscow Patriarchate.
Thanks for the articles.
Dmitry
Vladimir Makarenko wrote:
> lora...@cs.com wrote:
> > Dmitry wrote:
> >
> >>Russian Orthodox Church in Britain is splitting from Moscow and joining
> >>Constantinople Church. Senior members of the Diocese and Bishop Basil
> >>have decided that it is necessary to move away from the Moscow
> >>Patriarchate in order to preserve what exists in this country.
> >
> >
> > Yes.. no one cares about russkie crap anymore.
Hui, you should start counting how many "russkie crap" posts you have
submitted to scb. When you run out of fingers try toes, after that
you'll be stuck.
> > Post this off-topic thinly veiled russian propaganda elsewhere.
> >
> > Ask KGB Colonel and orthodox leaderAlexei II if you need guidance as to
> > where.
> >
>
> What is your rank in KGB?
Podpolkovnik? As the one who is sitting "pod polkoi" and whenever
trying to stand up bangs his head against "polka" without having any
idea why this keeps happening to him. Or may be he receives each bang
as a blessing from his colonel.
>
> VM.
vkar...@yahoo.com
Dmitry wrote:
> Russian Orthodox Church in Britain is splitting from Moscow and joining
> Constantinople Church. Senior members of the Diocese and Bishop Basil
> have decided that it is necessary to move away from the Moscow
> Patriarchate in order to preserve what exists in this country.
>
> Here are couple of quotes from the letter I received today.
>
> "There are many in the newly liberated Church in Russia who do not or
> cannot understand the different situation in which we find ourselves in
> Great Britain and in Western Europe.
>
I guess they had a major disagreement whether it's OK for Britain, USA
and their allies to invade and rape Orthodox coutries like
Montenegro/Serbia, Mecedonia, not to mention the Muslim Iraq...
>
> This has lead to an attempt to
> impose, with a heavy hand, Russianess which does not fit with the local
> Russian Orthodox Church set up in this country."
>
I love this sentence. Imagine reading something like:
"Eglishmaness does not fit with the local English Church..."
or
""Americaness does not fit with the local American Church..."
>
> "There is also a section of the present Church Hierarchy in Moscow
> which seeks to impose a firm hand on parishes and dioceses across
> Western Europe which is perceived as oppressive. We feel unable to
> accept and collude with this. It is a misguided quest to make all
> things Russian and conformed to what is in reality a non Orthodox mind
> set".
>
> I trust that the Bishop has made a right decision.
>
> Sorry for "out of topic", but I thought this info might interest some
> of scb readers.
>
Out of topic? Almost all posts to SCB are about Russia just as almost
all posts to SCR are about Israel.
BTW, have you ever considered posting such articles to SCR to begin
with?
vkar...@yahoo.com
Peter wrote:
> Dmitry,
>
> I couldn't find any recent news about this "new" rule, perhaps you
> posted old article? Next time post entire article with dates on it. Its
> kind of strange that you selected certain quotes just to prove your
> point, so unlike you.
>
There is not a single reference to the quotes that Dmitry has provided
in all of Internet, according to Google.
However, it seems that there may have been some degenerate Egyptian
convert to Russian Orthodoxy, named Bishop Basil of Sergievo, who tried
a terrorist act of divorcing the Russian Orthodox Church in Great
Britain from Russia. But don't worry: he has been fired for this act:
////////////////////////////////
http://www.sourozh.org/
"The Diocese of Sourozh...
It has parishes, formed into five deaneries, throughout Great Britain ,
and is open to people of all ethnic backgrounds. From August 2003 until
9th May 2006 the Diocese was under the direction of Bishop Basil of
Sergievo. It is now headed, on a temporary basis, by Archbishop
Innokenty of Korsun.
////////////////////////////////
http://www.sourozh.org/info/news/london_PM_en.html
The Parish Meeting of the London Cathedral confirms its loyalty to the
Moscow Patriarchate
On the 25th of June, 2006, there was a Parish Meeting of the London
Cathedral of the Dormition of the Mother of God and All Saints. The
meeting with one accord confirmed the loyalty of the parish to the
Russian Orthodox Church.
/////////////////////////////////////
Tough luck, Dimochka, ain't it?
captain.
<vkar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1151738777.3...@v61g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> I guess they had a major disagreement whether it's OK for Britain, USA
> and their allies to invade and rape Orthodox coutries like
> Montenegro/Serbia, Mecedonia, not to mention the Muslim Iraq...
>
once again, god and politcs are combined.
ali ali ali... jihaaaaad!
<snip>
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> Dmitry wrote:
>
>>Russian Orthodox Church in Britain is splitting from Moscow and joining
>>Constantinople Church. Senior members of the Diocese and Bishop Basil
>>have decided that it is necessary to move away from the Moscow
>>Patriarchate in order to preserve what exists in this country.
>>
>>Here are couple of quotes from the letter I received today.
>>
>>"There are many in the newly liberated Church in Russia who do not or
>>cannot understand the different situation in which we find ourselves in
>>Great Britain and in Western Europe.
>>
>
>
> I guess they had a major disagreement whether it's OK for Britain, USA
> and their allies to invade and rape Orthodox coutries like
> Montenegro/Serbia, Mecedonia, not to mention the Muslim Iraq...
>
Russian Christian Orthodox church, must of course be considered to be
well informed. Eh?
>
>> This has lead to an attempt to
>>impose, with a heavy hand, Russianess which does not fit with the local
>>Russian Orthodox Church set up in this country."
>>
>
>
> I love this sentence. Imagine reading something like:
>
> "Eglishmaness does not fit with the local English Church..."
>
> or
>
> ""Americaness does not fit with the local American Church..."
>
to imagination.
How about Zionism does not fit with the local Jewish temple ...
>
>>"There is also a section of the present Church Hierarchy in Moscow
>>which seeks to impose a firm hand on parishes and dioceses across
>>Western Europe which is perceived as oppressive. We feel unable to
>>accept and collude with this. It is a misguided quest to make all
>>things Russian and conformed to what is in reality a non Orthodox mind
>>set".
>>
Now how prevalent is the equivalent in the current Orthodox Jewish
hierarchy?
>>
>>I trust that the Bishop has made a right decision.
>>
>>Sorry for "out of topic", but I thought this info might interest some
>>of scb readers.
>>
>
> Out of topic? Almost all posts to SCB are about Russia just as almost
> all posts to SCR are about Israel.
>
Well we can't break with TRADITION!
Tradition needs to be expanded. :)
Dmitry
> > cannot understand the different situation in which we find ourselves in
> > Great Britain and in Western Europe.
> >
>
> I guess they had a major disagreement whether it's OK for Britain, USA
> and their allies to invade and rape Orthodox coutries like
> Montenegro/Serbia, Mecedonia, not to mention the Muslim Iraq...
No, military events have nothing to do with this issue.
>
> >
> > This has lead to an attempt to
> > impose, with a heavy hand, Russianess which does not fit with the local
> > Russian Orthodox Church set up in this country."
> >
>
> I love this sentence. Imagine reading something like:
>
> "Eglishmaness does not fit with the local English Church..."
It could be appropriate if it was about Anglican branch in Russia, but
impossible because Church of England encourages multi-culturalism.
>
> or
>
> ""Americaness does not fit with the local American Church..."
>
> >
> > "There is also a section of the present Church Hierarchy in Moscow
> > which seeks to impose a firm hand on parishes and dioceses across
> > Western Europe which is perceived as oppressive. We feel unable to
> > accept and collude with this. It is a misguided quest to make all
> > things Russian and conformed to what is in reality a non Orthodox mind
> > set".
> >
> > I trust that the Bishop has made a right decision.
> >
> > Sorry for "out of topic", but I thought this info might interest some
> > of scb readers.
> >
>
> Out of topic? Almost all posts to SCB are about Russia just as almost
> all posts to SCR are about Israel.
>
> BTW, have you ever considered posting such articles to SCR to begin
> with?
No, this has little to do with Israel.
Dmitry
> Peter wrote:
> > Dmitry,
> >
> > I couldn't find any recent news about this "new" rule, perhaps you
> > posted old article? Next time post entire article with dates on it. Its
> > kind of strange that you selected certain quotes just to prove your
> > point, so unlike you.
> >
>
> There is not a single reference to the quotes that Dmitry has provided
> in all of Internet, according to Google.
>
> However, it seems that there may have been some degenerate Egyptian
> convert to Russian Orthodoxy, named Bishop Basil of Sergievo, who tried
> a terrorist act of divorcing the Russian Orthodox Church in Great
> Britain from Russia. But don't worry: he has been fired for this act:
Yes, Vkarla, Bishop Basil was fired by ex-KGB officer from Moscow.
>
> ////////////////////////////////
> http://www.sourozh.org/
>
> "The Diocese of Sourozh...
>
> It has parishes, formed into five deaneries, throughout Great Britain ,
> and is open to people of all ethnic backgrounds. From August 2003 until
> 9th May 2006 the Diocese was under the direction of Bishop Basil of
> Sergievo. It is now headed, on a temporary basis, by Archbishop
> Innokenty of Korsun.
> ////////////////////////////////
> http://www.sourozh.org/info/news/london_PM_en.html
>
> The Parish Meeting of the London Cathedral confirms its loyalty to the
> Moscow Patriarchate
>
> On the 25th of June, 2006, there was a Parish Meeting of the London
> Cathedral of the Dormition of the Mother of God and All Saints. The
> meeting with one accord confirmed the loyalty of the parish to the
> Russian Orthodox Church.
> /////////////////////////////////////
>
> Tough luck, Dimochka, ain't it?
As I said, most newly arrived Russians settled in London. The rest of
the country's Parishes will most likely remain loyal to Basil.
vkar...@yahoo.com
Dmitry wrote:
> vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Peter wrote:
> > > Dmitry,
> > >
> > > I couldn't find any recent news about this "new" rule, perhaps you
> > > posted old article? Next time post entire article with dates on it. Its
> > > kind of strange that you selected certain quotes just to prove your
> > > point, so unlike you.
> > >
> >
> > There is not a single reference to the quotes that Dmitry has provided
> > in all of Internet, according to Google.
> >
> > However, it seems that there may have been some degenerate Egyptian
> > convert to Russian Orthodoxy, named Bishop Basil of Sergievo, who tried
> > a terrorist act of divorcing the Russian Orthodox Church in Great
> > Britain from Russia. But don't worry: he has been fired for this act:
>
> Yes, Vkarla, Bishop Basil was fired by ex-KGB officer from Moscow.
>
Well, England is a free country. I am sure that if the Russian Orhtodox
congregation shares ex-Bishop Basil's Russophobia, they will quit the
"KGB-controlled" official Russian Orthodox Church in Great Britain and
will join him in a new church. But my guts tell me that few if any
people will do that.
> >
> > ////////////////////////////////
> > http://www.sourozh.org/
> >
> > "The Diocese of Sourozh...
> >
> > It has parishes, formed into five deaneries, throughout Great Britain ,
> > and is open to people of all ethnic backgrounds. From August 2003 until
> > 9th May 2006 the Diocese was under the direction of Bishop Basil of
> > Sergievo. It is now headed, on a temporary basis, by Archbishop
> > Innokenty of Korsun.
> > ////////////////////////////////
> > http://www.sourozh.org/info/news/london_PM_en.html
> >
> > The Parish Meeting of the London Cathedral confirms its loyalty to the
> > Moscow Patriarchate
> >
> > On the 25th of June, 2006, there was a Parish Meeting of the London
> > Cathedral of the Dormition of the Mother of God and All Saints. The
> > meeting with one accord confirmed the loyalty of the parish to the
> > Russian Orthodox Church.
> > /////////////////////////////////////
> >
> > Tough luck, Dimochka, ain't it?
>
> As I said, most newly arrived Russians settled in London.
>
Wouldn't you say that the vast majority of "old arrived" Rusians live
in London as well?
>
> The rest of
> the country's Parishes will most likely remain loyal to Basil
>
Well, you are probably talking about a thousand people or so. And I bet
they will choose to stay with their fellow Russians and will not join
the Russia-hating foreign ex-bishop. Want to make a bet?
vkar...@yahoo.com
> > >
> > > Sorry for "out of topic", but I thought this info might interest some
> > > of scb readers.
> > >
> >
> > Out of topic? Almost all posts to SCB are about Russia just as almost
> > all posts to SCR are about Israel.
> >
> > BTW, have you ever considered posting such articles to SCR to begin
> > with?
>
> No, this has little to do with Israel.
>
Well, I am sure people, preoccupied with their phobia of Jews, will
find a way to bring up the Jewish issue even in this thread.
///////////////////////
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj wrote:
>
> Now how prevalent is the equivalent in the current Orthodox Jewish
> hierarchy?
>
...
>
> How about Zionism does not fit with the local Jewish temple ...
>
...
> Being Jewish and a Jew, your conclusions about the workings of the
> Russian Christian Orthodox church, must of course be considered to be
> well informed. Eh?
>
I am certainly less misinformed about and infinitely less antagonistic
towards the Orthodox Church than a certain Russophobic and antisemitic
fat Catholic slob that we all know...
lora...@cs.com
vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Well, I am sure people, preoccupied with their phobia of Jews, will
> find a way to bring up the Jewish issue even in this thread.
They will if you take this thread back to russkieland - where it
belongs.
Goodbye already Moskow..
Do svidanye..
Adios..
poka
up yours
and stay lost
keep this russian crap in russia.
Dmitry
> congregation shares ex-Bishop Basil's Russophobia,
So you call any disagreement with Moscow - russophobia?
> they will quit the
> "KGB-controlled" official Russian Orthodox Church in Great Britain and
> will join him in a new church. But my guts tell me that few if any
> people will do that.
We'll have to wait and see what happens. One thing is for certain, the
existing Diocese will split. Note that other Orthodox Churches in UK
don't split; in fact British Orthodox Church has joined Patriarchate of
Alexandria about 10 years ago.
> > As I said, most newly arrived Russians settled in London.
> >
>
> Wouldn't you say that the vast majority of "old arrived" Rusians live
> in London as well?
Yes, and "old arrived" were happy with Diocese of Sourozh. It seems as
if for newly arrived the Church is not Russian enough. Apart from this
Church issue, they can't get in terms with the fact that the country
they came is not Russia. I have observed this phenomenon in Latvia for
many years.
>
> >
> > The rest of
> > the country's Parishes will most likely remain loyal to Basil
> >
>
> Well, you are probably talking about a thousand people or so.
That's about right.
> And I bet
> they will choose to stay with their fellow Russians and will not join
> the Russia-hating foreign ex-bishop. Want to make a bet?
Basil is not foreign, he is English. Alexy II is foreign.
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
Thanks, Dmitry, for drawing our attention to this very interesting
story.
It is interesting to compare different views, many of which are linked
at Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diocese_of_Sourozh
Excerpts from comments I found revealing --
"Not only is this Diocese the most profound experience of Orthodox
worship that I have experienced, it also represented a beacon of hope
for the many, many Russians I know who are searching for depth and real
worship in their Church and do not desire a Church that is just an
extension of Russian state power or the propagator of an aggrandizing
national myth. So many young people in Moscow that I know have cut off
all relations with their Church disgusted at Church abuses of power
there that it is hard not to cry. Others such as a group of students at
the Lomonossov Moscow State University I spoke to recently have held on
to the example of Bishop Basil as an exception but also as a beacon of
hope. As one girl at the University put it to me: 'if only the Church
here [in Russia] could be more like that'. The lack of spirituality and
the worship of power in the hierarchy of the Russian Orthodox Church in
Russia has reached such a point of crisis that in a number of Russian
regions, for example Iaroslav, there are now more Roman Catholic
churchgoers than Orthodox.
"I write all this with great sadness, for I am an Orthodox believer and
I love Russia. The issues involved in the Diocese of Sourozh at the
moment are not about Bishop Basil himself, though he is an outstanding
person and one of the very few truly deep Christian Bishops today. The
issue is whether the Orthodox Church will turn itself into a club for a
few immigrants in England, an extension of state power in Russia..."
http://www.dioceseinfo.org/PERSONAL/beacon.html
Contrast the strange, imperialistic nostalgia maintained by some of
Basil's enemies --
"It was clear that this desertion of the Russian Church was not so much
about political opposition to the atheist persecution of the Church in
Russia, but more about the Exarchate implementing its own anti-Russian
politics. Its claims to be apolitical were in fact wholly political.
Indeed, even today it is apparent that many in the Paris emigration, as
among the Sourozh dissidents, are the physical or spiritual descendants
of those who actually encouraged and welcomed the Kerensky Revolution
of March 1917, rejoicing at the downfall of the Russian Empire. Little
wonder that Kerensky himself went to live in exile in London."
http://www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk/timebomb.htm
In summary --
"Once more the Patriarchate of Moscow shows that it does not apply its
own rules and that it just wants to be trusted and obeyed! We are back
to the Soviet mentality, without any law or respect for the law.
Instead of sobornost' we are asked for obedience."
http://www.dioceseinfo.org/PERSONAL/answerseng.html
This letter was particularly despairing, and agrees with what Dmitry
writes regarding not coming to "terms with the fact that the country
[to which] they came is not Russia--
"Some of them find our worship difficult to follow because they do not
know any English, but our English-speaking Orthodox (and these include
the children and grandchildren of the original Russian founders of
Sourozh community) do not understand Church Slavonic. The many converts
in the UK (and this includes the majority of our priests) have learnt
to follow the services with the assistance of books - Sourozh has
published the full text of the Divine Liturgy in a parallel edition.
This is used as a matter of course by us, the old-timers, the founder
members of the community, and the newcomers ought to follow suit. Many
do. A few militate for an exclusively 'Russian' worship and an
exclusively 'Russian' community in the most disgusting ways, physically
pushing the local people, insulting them to their face, not to speak of
pouring hatred and lies over our community in print and on the
Internet.
"Unfortunately, over the years we have seen the highest church
authority in Moscow listening to these people who bring our Church into
disrepute and who bring great hatred and unhappiness into our places of
worship, our community meetings, our common work. We see that their
petitions, full of lies and distortions, are accepted at face value and
we see with horror that the liars are believed while the real community
is completely disregarded.
"The authorities in the Patriarchate do not seem to understand us, and
they certainly behave as if they had the right to impose their will on
us - including their own choice of leadership - although this goes
directly against the teaching and practice of the Orthodox church. It
is by encouraging the divisive activity of the 'militant Russians' who
follow the traditional techniques of Soviet propaganda professionals
and by encouraging the creation of enclaves of direct patriarchal rules
on the territory of an established Diocese that the leadership in the
Moscow Patriarchate, our own Mother Church, has encouraged and
exacerbated the current problems of our Diocese."
http://www.dioceseinfo.org/HISTORICAL_BACKGROUND/Sourozh/openletter.html
/P
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
Actually, five parishes have already been received into the Exarchate
and entrusted to the pastoral care of Bishop Basil --
http://www.dioceseinfo.org/LATEST/parishes_exarchate.htm
Those who "remain loyal" to 19th C Ryssuan imperialism and Soviet
methods will probably stay under Moscow, of course.
Priest Andrew Phillips:
"As an Orthodox who seeks the salvation of the West from its own
humanistic demons, I cannot help being a Slavophile. The voice of the
true West coincides with the voice of Holy Russia."
Snort!
/P
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)
Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
> vkar...@yahoo.com wrote:
[corrected text]
> > Well, you are probably talking about a thousand people or so. And I bet
> > they will choose to stay with their fellow Russians and will not join
> > the Russia-hating foreign ex-bishop. Want to make a bet?
>
> Actually, five parishes have already been received into the Exarchate
> and entrusted to the pastoral care of Bishop Basil --
>
> http://www.dioceseinfo.org/LATEST/parishes_exarchate.htm
>
> Those who "remain loyal" to 19th C Russian imperialism and Soviet
Dmitry
It is amazing how they turn any disagreement with Moscow in to
"anti-Russian" or "Russophobia". Here is another quote from the letter
I've received:- "We shall remain firmly in the Great Russian Spiritual
Tradition but protected from the present unhealthy pressures from
Moscow. We hope and pray for full reunion whenever that becomes
possible." How anti-Russian is that?
> Its claims to be apolitical were in fact wholly political.
> Indeed, even today it is apparent that many in the Paris emigration, as
> among the Sourozh dissidents, are the physical or spiritual descendants
> of those who actually encouraged and welcomed the Kerensky Revolution
> of March 1917, rejoicing at the downfall of the Russian Empire. Little
> wonder that Kerensky himself went to live in exile in London."
We are also familiar with the view that the Latvian nation is
responsible for Lenin's revolution.....................................
This is such poor argument.
>
> http://www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk/timebomb.htm
>
> In summary --
>
> "Once more the Patriarchate of Moscow shows that it does not apply its
> own rules and that it just wants to be trusted and obeyed! We are back
> to the Soviet mentality, without any law or respect for the law.
> Instead of sobornost' we are asked for obedience."
>
> http://www.dioceseinfo.org/PERSONAL/answerseng.html
>
> This letter was particularly despairing, and agrees with what Dmitry
> writes regarding not coming to "terms with the fact that the country
> [to which] they came is not Russia--
>
> "Some of them find our worship difficult to follow because they do not
> know any English, but our English-speaking Orthodox (and these include
> the children and grandchildren of the original Russian founders of
> Sourozh community) do not understand Church Slavonic.
I also doubt that many Russians fully understand Church Slavonic
either. Yes, this is an English speaking Church. Some might find it
strange that people speak English in England. In my local Parish this
doesn't seem to be a problem, everyone (including "newly arrived")
speaks English. Also some parts of the service are in Church Slavonic.
> The many converts
> in the UK (and this includes the majority of our priests) have learnt
> to follow the services with the assistance of books - Sourozh has
> published the full text of the Divine Liturgy in a parallel edition.
> This is used as a matter of course by us, the old-timers, the founder
> members of the community, and the newcomers ought to follow suit. Many
> do. A few militate for an exclusively 'Russian' worship and an
> exclusively 'Russian' community in the most disgusting ways, physically
> pushing the local people, insulting them to their face, not to speak of
> pouring hatred and lies over our community in print and on the
> Internet.
This must have happened in London, I can't think of anywhere else in
this country.
>
> "Unfortunately, over the years we have seen the highest church
> authority in Moscow listening to these people who bring our Church into
> disrepute and who bring great hatred and unhappiness into our places of
> worship, our community meetings, our common work. We see that their
> petitions, full of lies and distortions, are accepted at face value and
> we see with horror that the liars are believed while the real community
> is completely disregarded.
>
> "The authorities in the Patriarchate do not seem to understand us, and
> they certainly behave as if they had the right to impose their will on
> us - including their own choice of leadership - although this goes
> directly against the teaching and practice of the Orthodox church.
May be the authorities in Moscow have forgotten that if the Ukraine,
and gradually the whole of Russia itself, had remained under the strong
and direct influence of Byzantium when Vladimir was converted, the
Orthodox Church would never have developed in the local soil as the
'Russian Orthodox Church' that we know.
> It
> is by encouraging the divisive activity of the 'militant Russians' who
> follow the traditional techniques of Soviet propaganda professionals
> and by encouraging the creation of enclaves of direct patriarchal rules
> on the territory of an established Diocese that the leadership in the
> Moscow Patriarchate, our own Mother Church, has encouraged and
> exacerbated the current problems of our Diocese."
He is right. Moscow's appointed Innokenty's appeal to the members of
Diocese went very much in line with the above mentioned propaganda.
Here is another quote from "ani-Russian/Russophobic" member of this
Diocese: -
"What does this "moving from Moscow to Constantinople" mean?
It means retaining our fidelity to the Russian Orthodox tradition AND
to the principles and decisions of the Moscow Sobor of 1917-18. In this
last we differ from the current practices of the present Moscow
Patriarchate: under Communist persecution the Russian Church could not
possibly implement these decisions but rather was forced to submit to
many restrictions of her activity in order to survive. This resulted in
some major changes in attitudes and practices.
The Russian church survived by the blood of her martyrs, by the
devotion of her humble members, but also by the compromise of her
leaders with an atheist State.
We are certain that the Russian church will in time renounce its
present intolerant and authoritarian attitudes, reverting to the
principles of the great Sobor. For our part, we will continue to live
within the Universal Orthodox church which has been preserved in
Orthodox communities living in freedom rather than subjected to
Communist oppression. We will continue to pray in Church Slavonic AND
in the local language, to welcome all Orthodox, whatever their
nationality and race, to develop as a local Orthodox community, rather
than an appendage of a specific country.
We are in the United Kingdom a multinational Orthodox community,
consisting of up to 4 generations of émigrés from Russia, of
non-Russians who joined Orthodoxy out of personal conviction, of
Russians who for one reason or another now come to dwell in the UK
permanently or temporarily - and of all their children.
By "Russians" we mean people originating from the vastness of the
Russian Empire, now referred to as the Former Soviet Union.
Our Church life is Russian Orthodox in its Liturgy as well as in its
administrative and canonical organisation, based on the Russian
tradition. There are slight divergences of practice with the current
situation in the Former Soviet Union, since only we have been free to
observe the principles of the Moscow Sobor of 1917-1918. We are and
will remain an Orthodox Community faithful to the Russian tradition.
Irina von Schlippe "
>
> http://www.dioceseinfo.org/HISTORICAL_BACKGROUND/Sourozh/openletter.html
>
> /P
Dmitry
Well described in http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Andrew_Phillips
"much of his criticism is levelled at the leadership of the Diocese of
Sourozh in the UK (referring to the administration of Metr. Anthony
(Bloom) as a "personality cult") and the Russian Orthodox Exarchate in
Western Europe, based in Paris. He also occasionally publishes remarks
critical of the OCA [http://www.oca.org/] (referring to it as
"Eastern-rite Uniatism") and the Ecumenical Patriarchate, which he
regards as "in the forefront of ecumenism and modernism in the
twentieth century."
>
> /P
Dmitry
"Following the breakup of the Soviet Union, divisions within the
Orthodox community in Estonia arose between those who wished to remain
under Russian authority and those who wished to return to the
jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, with the dispute often
taking place along ethnic lines, many Russians having immigrated to
Estonia during the Soviet occupation. Lengthy negotiations between the
two patriarchates failed to produce any agreement.
In 1993, the synod of the Orthodox Church of Estonia in Exile was
re-registered as the legal successor of the autonomous Orthodox Church
of Estonia, and on February 20, 1996, Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew
I renewed the tomos granted to the OCE in 1923, restoring its canonical
subordination to the Ecumenical Patriarchate. This action brought
immediate protest from Patriarch Alexei II of the Moscow Patriarchate,
which regarded the Estonian church as being part of ITS TERRITORY
[capitalised/upper-cased by me to emphasise my point], and the
Patriarch of Moscow temporarily removed the name of the Ecumenical
Patriarch from the diptychs."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_Orthodox_Church
Meanwhile I have examined a variety of articles and letters sent to me
outlining both views and I have placed my vote towards the decision
whether my local parish will move to new jurisdiction or stay under
Alexy. "Moscow" supporters promised that the parishes will be allowed
to choose the liturgy language, but didn't confirm that the voting
system will be allowed. Those who choose to stay with Moscow might not
experience to exercise this right again.
One of the letters contained photocopies from Russian newspapers. One
of the articles started from :- "Imagine this situation. Some priest
[meaning Basil] says: I am oppressed because Chinese (or French) have
started to attend my church........" [my translation from Russkaja
Mysl', 16th-22nd June 2006] ................... This is another example
of how propaganda is still alive and kicking in that country. Pack of
lies ....... this diocese has always welcomed everyone, disregarding of
their ethnic origin or cultural background!!! The irony is that the
person who sent this is English and doesn't know any more than 3 words
in Russian. In covering letter he said: "we have no doubt of the good
intentions of Patriarch Alexei towards the Diocese of Sourozh and feel
that he should be allowed to continue to pastor us in the way he always
has in the past". I fail to recall any pastoral attempt from this
individual, on contrary Fr. David (who is the local priest) has gained
my respect since I first met him.
Also "Moscow" supporters are continuously bringing up Metropolitan
Anthony (the founder of this Diocese). From the same article [my
translation]: "In the most difficult times for Russian Church
Metropolitan Anthony kept his canonical allegiance to Patriarch of
Moscow. In the 20/30's Finnish, Estonian, Lithuanian and Latvian
eparchies has left Russian Church (last 3 have returned back to
jurisdiction of Moscow Patriarchate in 1941)."
They are playing on ignorance of their readers. Firstly, the relation
between this Diocese and Moscow Patriarchate was different in the past
from what it is today. Secondly, the readers have no knowledge of how
closely connected Basil was (and still is) to Anthony and this diocese.
And thirdly, the readers might not be fully aware why "the last 3 have
"returned back".
And one more from another article in Russian (don't know which paper
this is from) written by Elena Jakovleva [my translation again].
"Synod of Russian Orthodox Church declared the decision of Patriarchate
of Constantinople to accept Bishop Basil (Osborn), ex-administrator of
Surozh eparchy (Great Britain and Ireland), in its jurisdiction
unlawful."
This didn't assure me that the concept of freedom of choice (referring
to "Moscow" supporter's promises) has been accepted by Moscow
Patriarchate yet.
And the last one from the same article: "Church stops being the Church
of Christ if it starts to separate in line with human separatism".
Well, if I had a chance to meet Elena Jakovleva I would ask her to
express her opinion on how she perceives Protestant and Old Believers
history.
She might have a problem to distinguish between separation and
unification. My local parish has a strong links with local Greek
Church (many Greek cultural events are attended by members of this
church and the service in this church is attended by members of Greek
community) and Church of England (Anglican priests visited liturgy on
several occasions). The building itself is adjacent to Methodist
Church and used to be Methodist Sunday school. This Parish bought this
building. The money didn't come from Moscow, but from church members!
The price was very modest too. Why? Because in this country it is a
custom to support each other. Before moving to this building the
services were held in Anglican church in city centre.
In pre-independence Riga several Baptist and Pentecostal draudzes were
dwelling in Lutheran buildings. It was not only about who is paying the
bill (collecting money from Christian community by Soviet occupiers is
another story), it was also about the unity of Christians and indeed
about the people who did not accept the regime.
Enough words from me. I just want to conclude that I doubt that
Patriarch Vseja Rusi doesn't really understand why British Diocese is
moving away from him. I've read some of his
letters/arguments/statements, he is quite an intelligent person. He
must be doing it on purpose, whatever his purpose is.