Is that the end of baltic countries?
daniloff
Vladimir Makarenko
> Or EU will save then?
What exactly is the end? Did you forget to post some link?
Come on Daniloff, every two weeks another doomsday local, regional or
global is announced. The population of Nostradamus country is growing
faster than India's or China's. Baltics are there and they are not going
anywhere in foreseeable future. Hence - how must the strategy be build on.
Denying them doesn't pay, only losses.
VM.
ps And please - it is not baltic it is Baltic.
Most probably you just slipped a finger but they would decide it was
intentional.
daniloff
"Vladimir Makarenko" <vma...@nospamgmail.com> ???????/???????? ? ????????
?????????: news:aYOdnRdF0fd4g77W...@giganews.com...
> daniloff wrote:
>> Or EU will save then?
>
> What exactly is the end? Did you forget to post some link?
Geece is in ass.
Who is next?
http://www.howestreet.com/articles/index.php?article_id=11794
EU Ready to Bailout Greece; Debt Downgrades in Baltic States; Can Euroland
Even Survive?
Downward Pressure on Latvia and Lithuania
According to Fitch, Baltic Ratings Remain Under 'Downward Pressure'
Fitch Ratings said Latvia and Lithuania's sovereign ratings remain under
"downward pressure" as the Baltic states' economic plight sends their
deficit and debt levels higher.
Latvia's BB+ rating, the highest non-investment grade, and Lithuania's BBB
rating, two levels above junk, are more at risk of a downgrade than Estonia's
BBB+ rating, Fitch said in a statement today.
The Baltic states are suffering the deepest economic contractions in the
European Union after their debt-fueled property bubbles burst and their
governments forced through tough austerity measures.
>
> Come on Daniloff, every two weeks another doomsday local, regional or
> global is announced. The population of Nostradamus country is growing
> faster than India's or China's. Baltics are there and they are not going
> anywhere in foreseeable future. Hence - how must the strategy be build on.
> Denying them doesn't pay, only losses.
>
> VM.
>
> ps And please - it is not baltic it is Baltic.
> Most probably you just slipped a finger but they would decide it was
> intentional.
Sure it was.
I hope my bad english will make it possible for baltic countries to increase
their financial claims to russia.
And it will save them from financial collapse.
>
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> "Vladimir Makarenko" <vmak...@nospamgmail.com> ???????/???????? ? ????????
Are you the Russian version of La Russophobe?
http://larussophobe.wordpress.com/2009/12/09/one-american-is-worth-five-russians/
daniloff
"Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr." <ostap_be...@hotmail.com> ???????/????????
? ???????? ?????????:
news:b56caad8-6c8b-41ba...@s21g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
http://larussophobe.wordpress.com/2009/12/09/one-american-is-worth-five-russians/
The point is I am feeling guilty of soviet ocupation of baltic countries,
but it is maximum luxury I can afford to let me come clean of
Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr." <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> ???????/????????
>
> The point is I am feeling guilty of soviet ocupation of baltic countries,
> but it is maximum luxury I can afford to let me come clean of
> Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.
Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, signed in Munich in 1938, was a horrible act:
with it, Slain gave Czechoslovakia as a present to Hitler and his
Polish and Hungarian friends. Imagine what would happen if Britain
ever did that: everybody would blame it for appeasing Hitler and
paving the way for WW2. I am glad it never happened.
daniloff
"Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr." <ostap_be...@hotmail.com> ???????/????????
? ???????? ?????????:
news:652771a1-6fb7-42b3...@y10g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
=============================================================
I guess if baltic countries could choose they would choose Czechoslovakia's
fate and civilized Germans not barbaric russians
vello
>
even a guy with IQ70 must be able to separate two totally different
things: a) lack of brave by UK &French to start World War about not
allowing germans living in Sudeten to join Germany b) gangster deal
between two predators about marking on map their hunting territories
"deleting" first on paper, then in nature a lot of nations.
vello
> "Vladimir Makarenko" <vmak...@nospamgmail.com> ???????/???????? ? ????????
financial claims to Russia from Baltics or at least from my country.
Holocaust business is not a thing for honourable man.
daniloff
"vello" <vell...@hot.ee> ???????/???????? ? ???????? ?????????:
news:8f169301-5919-4a8e...@d21g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
http://top.rbc.ru/politics/07/01/2008/132727.shtml
Baltic countries always was agricultural. It was their tradition
They are dissatisfied that SU have built too many industrial plants on
their territory.
They hardly got rid of them.
Now Russia has to repair the damages
It is no Holocaust business.
It is just fight for justice.
vello
> "vello" <vellok...@hot.ee> ???????/???????? ? ???????? ?????????:news:8f169301-5919-4a8e...@d21g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 12, 2:14 pm, "daniloff" <mdanil...@yandex.ru> wrote:
>
> Well we are still alive. btw, how much I know there has been no
> financial claims to Russia from Baltics or at least from my country.
> Holocaust business is not a thing for honourable man.
>
> http://top.rbc.ru/politics/07/01/2008/132727.shtml
>
> Baltic countries always was agricultural. It was their tradition
It was a tradition for given timeframe for all nations in the world
exept UK and partly Germany - they lead the way to the industrial
world.
> They are dissatisfied that SU have built too many industrial plants on
> their territory.
Problem was not in plants but with enormous (in our scale) inflow of
immigrants who come to work in those plants,
> They hardly got rid of them.
> Now Russia has to repair the damages
> It is no Holocaust business.
> It is just fight for justice.
Any attempt to measure some human tragedy in dollars IS "Holocaust
industry". Human sufferings don't have price tag.
Incognito
"daniloff" <mmdan...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:56f53763-caa2-4f78...@z41g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
Incognito
of Lost Republics.
"daniloff" <mdan...@yandex.ru> wrote in message
news:hg01ej$134n$1...@adenine.netfront.net...
Incognito
"Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr." <ostap_be...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:652771a1-6fb7-42b3...@y10g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
And what Kisa Vorobyaninov has to say about this?
Incognito
Berber are barbarians, Russians can drink vodka and build well-ventilated
structures. If Baltic States must decide now, they will choose Huan Ming,
who can.
Vladimir Makarenko
> How about Russia offer to save Baltics; offer them membership in the Chamber
> of Lost Republics.
>
That's a great name, I will remember it. Almost Harry Potter.
Thanks.
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
> Vodka is a good thing. Then you can talk a lot. About bolticks.
>
Vodka is grossly overrated. As Captain (where is Captain btw?) points -
a pot is much healthier and "friendly".
VM.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
I understand your point: when the Nazis and Poles occupy
Czechoslovakia - that's no biggie: Czechs and Czech Jews deserved
their fate, because Czech Sudetenland should belong to Nazis. But when
Russia and Lithuania return their lands, stolen by Poland in 1920 - oh
that's worse than the Holocaust.
>
> b) gangster deal
> between two predators about marking on map their hunting territories
> "deleting" first on paper, then in nature a lot of nations.
>
Actually, the only nations, which were truly unfairly treated as the
result of the M-R Peace Treaty's secret addendum, were Latvia and
Estonia. That's bad, but the Rape of Czechia and Slovakia in 1938 was
just as bad.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
Is it? You would be well advised to switch to kvass and save the
remaining brain cells.
>
> Then you can talk a lot. About bolticks.
>
> "daniloff" <mmdanil...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr." <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:652771a1-6fb7-42b3...@y10g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
You will have to ask him yourself: he and I parted company under
rather unpleasant circumstances.
daniloff
"vello" <vell...@hot.ee> ???????/???????? ? ???????? ?????????:
news:5a8eb5ef-f42f-4263...@b2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 12, 9:55 pm, "daniloff" <mdanil...@yandex.ru> wrote:
> "vello" <vellok...@hot.ee> ???????/???????? ? ????????
> ?????????:news:8f169301-5919-4a8e...@d21g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 12, 2:14 pm, "daniloff" <mdanil...@yandex.ru> wrote:
>
> Well we are still alive. btw, how much I know there has been no
> financial claims to Russia from Baltics or at least from my country.
> Holocaust business is not a thing for honourable man.
>
> http://top.rbc.ru/politics/07/01/2008/132727.shtml
>
> Baltic countries always was agricultural. It was their tradition
It was a tradition for given timeframe for all nations in the world
exept UK and partly Germany - they lead the way to the industrial
world.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You have forgotten add USSR in this list.
> They are dissatisfied that SU have built too many industrial plants on
> their territory.
Problem was not in plants but with enormous (in our scale) inflow of
immigrants who come to work in those plants,
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Problem was EU was more rich and english or deutch was more attractive.
> They hardly got rid of them.
> Now Russia has to repair the damages
> It is no Holocaust business.
> It is just fight for justice.
Any attempt to measure some human tragedy in dollars IS "Holocaust
industry". Human sufferings don't have price tag.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You are outdated and have not to live at capitalism.
vello
Well with finland everything was OK? :-) but you are again not getting
the point: UK & France don't cut a single piece from body of any
nation, not shot any soldier or civilian, not shell or bomb any city.
That job was done by Nazi Germany and Commie Russia. UK & France just
had no balls to fight the predators. Bad, but no way it makes them
predators as well.
vello
> "vello" <vellok...@hot.ee> ???????/???????? ? ???????? ?????????:news:5a8eb5ef-f42f-4263...@b2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 12, 9:55 pm, "daniloff" <mdanil...@yandex.ru> wrote:
>
> > "vello" <vellok...@hot.ee> ???????/???????? ? ????????
> > ?????????:news:8f169301-5919-4a8e...@d21g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
> > On Dec 12, 2:14 pm, "daniloff" <mdanil...@yandex.ru> wrote:
>
> > Well we are still alive. btw, how much I know there has been no
> > financial claims to Russia from Baltics or at least from my country.
> > Holocaust business is not a thing for honourable man.
>
> >http://top.rbc.ru/politics/07/01/2008/132727.shtml
>
> > Baltic countries always was agricultural. It was their tradition
>
> It was a tradition for given timeframe for all nations in the world
> exept UK and partly Germany - they lead the way to the industrial
> world.
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> You have forgotten add USSR in this list.
USSR was making weapons mostly and catching up with west but no way SU
was as industrialised as mid-north Europe before war.
>
> > They are dissatisfied that SU have built too many industrial plants on
> > their territory.
>
> Problem was not in plants but with enormous (in our scale) inflow of
> immigrants who come to work in those plants,
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Problem was EU was more rich and english or deutch was more attractive.
Here you miss the basic idea behind independence: it was estonian what
seems more attractive.
>
> > They hardly got rid of them.
> > Now Russia has to repair the damages
> > It is no Holocaust business.
> > It is just fight for justice.
>
> Any attempt to measure some human tragedy in dollars IS "Holocaust
> industry". Human sufferings don't have price tag.
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> You are outdated and have not to live at capitalism.
nothing in perfect under sun. But no way I want back into dead muddy
waters of SU.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
Yes, USSR did attack Finland, but this had nothing to do with Molotov-
Ribbentrop. But the 3 Baltic states were taken without any bombing or
fighting, just as Czechoslovakia was completely divided between
Germany, Poland and Hungary without fighting.
>
> That job was done by Nazi Germany and Commie Russia.
>
No, Russia took the Baltics without a single shot.
>
> UK & France just
> had no balls to fight the predators. Bad, but no way it makes them
> predators as well.
>
Given that UK and France showed in 1938 that they wanted Nazi Germany
to expand eastwards and to fight "Commie Russia", USSR had no choice
but to expand its borders westward in order to fight Germany from
better borders.
Look, the Soviet occupation of the Baltics and East Europe after WW2
was a crime, but before WW2, UK and France pushed Germany to fight
USSR, and USSR had to react.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
Tell me, Vello, which foreign cities did USSR shell/bomb? Berlin?
Dresden? Budapest? Bucharest?
vello
> > > Actually, the only nations, which were truly unfairly treated as the
> > > result of the M-R Peace Treaty's secret addendum, were Latvia and
> > > Estonia. That's bad, but the Rape of Czechia and Slovakia in 1938 was
> > > just as bad.
>
> > Well with finland everything was OK? :-) but you are again not getting
> > the point: UK & France don't cut a single piece from body of any
> > nation, not shot any soldier or civilian, not shell or bomb any city.
>
> Yes, USSR did attack Finland, but this had nothing to do with Molotov-
> Ribbentrop.
Are you really **** or just pretending to be? Read the MRP pact,
Finland is high in list of Soviet wishes.
But the 3 Baltic states were taken without any bombing or
> fighting, just as Czechoslovakia was completely divided between
> Germany, Poland and Hungary without fighting.
Sure. In that point both predators get their meal without battle. They
were not so lucky in Poland, Finland and France.
>
>
>
> > That job was done by Nazi Germany and Commie Russia.
>
> No, Russia took the Baltics without a single shot.
Again you are primitive as usual. My post: "UK & France don't cut a
single piece from body of any
nation, not shot any soldier or civilian, not shell or bomb any city.
That job was done by Nazi Germany and Commie Russia.
and your answer: "Russia took Baltics bla bla bla..."
If you continue to "create" my ideas to reply them, I stop replying -
no point to vaste time.
>
>
>
> > UK & France just
> > had no balls to fight the predators. Bad, but no way it makes them
> > predators as well.
>
> Given that UK and France showed in 1938 that they wanted Nazi Germany
> to expand eastwards and to fight "Commie Russia",
It is not "given", it is just your stupidity. UK & France had no will
to fight for right of Czechs to rule over Sudetian Germans. Nothing to
do with Russia - back then Chechoslovakia was not a way to Russia -
Poland was.
USSR had no choice
> but to expand its borders westward in order to fight Germany from
> better borders.
No choice? If you have no money you feel you have "no choice" but grab
my wallet? You are real commie in stalinist terms :-)
>
> Look, the Soviet occupation of the Baltics and East Europe after WW2
> was a crime, but before WW2, UK and France pushed Germany to fight
> USSR, and USSR had to react.
UK & France don't attack anyone. Surely if there would be choice, will
Hitler go on Russia or UK & France, their choice would be: go to
Russia. Suicidal guys normally don't make it to the posts of primes
and presidents. about "pushing", you are primitive as usual. Poland
was the way from Germany to Russia (and, don't forget, from Russia to
Germany. If West would want war between Germany and Russia, not
supporting Poland would been their first move. Attac to Poland means
Führers way to East - so why to mess him with war declarations? Wake
up from somnambulic soviet dreams.
vello
>
> Tell me, Vello, which foreign cities did USSR shell/bomb? Berlin?
> Dresden? Budapest? Bucharest?
>
I think they shell/bomb any enemy city in war? Surely Berlin, surely
my home city, Tallinn lost about 30% of living space in two nights of
bombing - and they totally destroyed old Hansa city of Narva - from
historical city center, just three buildings remains.
Stalin had no nukes, no heavy bombers to compete with West in bombing
Germany. But if you think that Stalin would not use nukes/heavy
bombers if he had own those things, you are on even lower level then
usually.
Vladimir Makarenko
And who is kidding now?
Just ask around the globe. History doesn't end few hundred miles from
your home. You cannot talk to Tasmanians though - none are left.
VM.
Surely if there would be choice, will
> Hitler go on Russia or UK & France, their choice would be: go to
> Russia. Suicidal guys normally don't make it to the posts of primes
> and presidents. about "pushing", you are primitive as usual. Poland
> was the way from Germany to Russia (and, don't forget, from Russia to
> Germany. If West would want war between Germany and Russia, not
> supporting Poland would been their first move. Attac to Poland means
> F�hrers way to East - so why to mess him with war declarations? Wake
Vladimir Makarenko
> On Dec 14, 12:07 am, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr."
> <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 13, 1:45 pm, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr."
>
>> Tell me, Vello, which foreign cities did USSR shell/bomb? Berlin?
>> Dresden? Budapest? Bucharest?
>>
> I think they shell/bomb any enemy city in war?
Not really. Soviets didn't have resources to bomb everything in sight,
so they mostly were concentrated on hitting enemy troops, not civilians.
The British were however in a "revenge" mode/mood, and dragged along
reluctant Americans for all out bombing campaign.
VM.
Anton
> On Dec 13, 1:45 pm, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr."
> <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 13, 1:31 pm, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>>> Well with finland everything was OK? :-) but you are again not getting
>>> the point: UK & France don't cut a single piece from body of any
>>> nation, not shot any soldier or civilian, not shell or bomb any city.
> Tell me, Vello, which foreign cities did USSR shell/bomb? Berlin?
> Dresden? Budapest? Bucharest?
Helsinki, Turku, Vyborg, Tampere, Lahti, Lappeenranta, Mikkeli,
Jyvￜskylￜ, Hanko, Hamina, Vasa, Rovaniemi, Riihimￜki, Pori, Kuopio,
Kouvola, Iisalmi, etc etc. (690 locations in Winter war alone. 2726
raids in the winter war, another 2581 in the continuation war).
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talvisodan_pommitukset
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jatkosodan_pommitusten_aiheuttamat_tuhot
There are still holes big as fists caused by bombs in the wall of the
former main Post Office of Turku. (Nowadays the TeliaSonera telco has
its premises there).
>> Yes, USSR did attack Finland, but this had nothing to do with Molotov-
>> Ribbentrop.
It did.
> But the 3 Baltic states were taken without any bombing or
>> fighting
The fact that they were taken also sealed a "round #2" of Finno-Russo
fighting.
--
Anton
Vladimir Makarenko
Such uneasy history. Russians do not know much or talk about the war -
because feeling shame. It is as if to mention some family dark secret. I
e.g. leraned about the war not from school (there was maybe a paragraph
about it in very vague terms) but reading A. Gaidar (while in tender age
(don't remember which book).Sometimes we fight here verbally out of Ego,
like in computer game but if to go "clean" - behind all that "platonic"
issues are dead bodies of real people, tens, hundred thousands of them.
For what?, - for nothing.
Here I have my Russkie sneer - how come WEurope remembers so much
betrayal of Czechs and Poland but not Finland? Which not only fought -
it Won the War. USSR stepped back amazed: let's better go after polar
bears, - much safer.
America fought in Vietnam, ~50,000 dead and lost. USSR fought elsewhere
and lost. Again tens of thousands dead. And this is only counting on
"our" side. It is like in Las Vegas to bet in 21 not $$$ but human lives.
I really from time to time look with disgust and despair at human
civilization. So damn stupid: how much effort USSR put in bleeding
itself to make Finland a sworn enemy? Work of geniuses.
VM.
Dmitry
> Ribbentrop.
It had to do a lot with Molotov-Ribentrop.
> But the 3 Baltic states were taken without any bombing or
> fighting,
There was fighting when USSR attacked Latvia, but very minimal because
Red army was far more superior in numbers.
> just as Czechoslovakia was completely divided between
> Germany, Poland and Hungary without fighting.
>
>
>
> > That job was done by Nazi Germany and Commie Russia.
>
> No, Russia took the Baltics without a single shot.
Not true, the guns were fired during the invasion process.
> > UK & France just
> > had no balls to fight the predators. Bad, but no way it makes them
> > predators as well.
>
> Given that UK and France showed in 1938 that they wanted Nazi Germany
> to expand eastwards and to fight "Commie Russia", USSR had no choice
> but to expand its borders westward in order to fight Germany from
> better borders.
Stalin's "readiness" for Hitler's invasion of USSR suggests
otherwise. On 22nd June 1941 Red army was not ready for it - most
military personel were deployed to far East and most talented military
managers were either executed or sent to labor camps.
I can't see how occupation of Baltic States in 1940 helped to fight
Nazies. USSR had choices and it chose to occupy Baltics. There is no
point holding Nazi Germany responsible for this act.
vello
wrote:
> vello wrote:
> > On Dec 14, 12:07 am, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr."
> > <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Dec 13, 1:45 pm, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr."
>
> >> Tell me, Vello, which foreign cities did USSR shell/bomb? Berlin?
> >> Dresden? Budapest? Bucharest?
>
> > I think they shell/bomb any enemy city in war?
>
> Not really. Soviets didn't have resources to bomb everything in sight,
> so they mostly were concentrated on hitting enemy troops, not civilians.
> The British were however in a "revenge" mode/mood, and dragged along
> reluctant Americans for all out bombing campaign.
>
> VM.
Nothing to do with mode/mood. ALL participants used anything they had
to put enemy down. Just some owns more AF capabilities, others less.
> Surely Berlin, surely
>
>
>
> > my home city, Tallinn lost about 30% of living space in two nights of
> > bombing - and they totally destroyed old Hansa city of Narva - from
> > historical city center, just three buildings remains.
>
> > Stalin had no nukes, no heavy bombers to compete with West in bombing
> > Germany. But if you think that Stalin would not use nukes/heavy
> > bombers if he had own those things, you are on even lower level then
> > usually.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
vello
wrote:
We talk about ww2.
>
> VM.
>
> Surely if there would be choice, will
> > Hitler go on Russia or UK & France, their choice would be: go to
> > Russia. Suicidal guys normally don't make it to the posts of primes
> > and presidents. about "pushing", you are primitive as usual. Poland
> > was the way from Germany to Russia (and, don't forget, from Russia to
> > Germany. If West would want war between Germany and Russia, not
> > supporting Poland would been their first move. Attac to Poland means
> > Führers way to East - so why to mess him with war declarations? Wake
> > up from somnambulic soviet dreams.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Vladimir Makarenko
I do not blame the British, even though it was a war crime - there is no
legal defense. It is not my opinion - the commander of the US AF wrote
so to Roosvelt.
That said - this one was very UGLY FACE - the Victory.
Germans keep their mouth shot because what thay did on occupied
terrioties, Russians too - well "Russians" - I guess you don't give a
damn that these people who went on rampage in occupied Germany were not
Russians, I read how a lieutenant, commander of a platoon complained to
his American couterpart - "at least they understand in your language
your orders"
What you Balts miss - by 1945 we all Russians were dead. The Empire
fought back at expense of soldiers from national provinces, who didn't
before ever see cities.
VM.
Anton
> Anton wrote:
>> Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr. kirjoitti:
>>> But the 3 Baltic states were taken without any bombing or
>>>> fighting
>> The fact that they were taken also sealed a "round #2" of Finno-Russo
>> fighting.
> Such uneasy history.
> Russians do not know much or talk about the war -
> because feeling shame.
No need for that for the ordinary guy. We are only pieces on a Chess
bord. There are many things Finnish people should be ashamed of also.
The East-Karelian camps, for instance, and the indirect involvment in
the siege of Leningrad. Many Finns feel embarrased of the "Suur-Suomi"
("Greater Finland")ￜ aspirations some of our leadership at the time had.
(Crossing the border to Russian Karelian lands was part military
strategic "buffer to defend our positions" thinking, but also in line
with pan-Finnic "Greater Finland" ideals).
ￜ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Finland
War is ugly business and rarely if ever is one party 100% innocent. The
Finnish FM at the time, Elias Erkko, thought Stalin is only bluffing
with his demands, and did not make any kind of concessions. With
hindsight he was wrong, of course. (Finnish post-WWII president J.K
Paasikivi called the Winter War "Erkko's War"). It _might_ be possible
that Finns could have avoided the Winter War with better diplomacy.
(However sooner or later we'd likely been part of a German-Russo war
anyway).
My opinion is that everybody on all "sides" should tone down that
nationalistic crap and not blow historic "war myths" out of proportion
and focus on a peaceful present and future instead.
(I dislike wery much that in some countries authorities official organs
are allowed to be instruments of defamation of former foes.)
--
Anton
Vladimir Makarenko
> Vladimir Makarenko kirjoitti:
>> Anton wrote:
>>> Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr. kirjoitti:
>
>>>> But the 3 Baltic states were taken without any bombing or
>>>>> fighting
>
>>> The fact that they were taken also sealed a "round #2" of Finno-Russo
>>> fighting.
>
>> Such uneasy history.
>
>> Russians do not know much or talk about the war -
>> because feeling shame.
>
> No need for that for the ordinary guy. We are only pieces on a Chess
> bord. There are many things Finnish people should be ashamed of also.
> The East-Karelian camps, for instance, and the indirect involvment in
> the siege of Leningrad. Many Finns feel embarrased of the "Suur-Suomi"
> ("Greater Finland")ￜ aspirations some of our leadership at the time had.
> (Crossing the border to Russian Karelian lands was part military
> strategic "buffer to defend our positions" thinking, but also in line
> with pan-Finnic "Greater Finland" ideals).
>
> ￜ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Finland
>
> War is ugly business and rarely if ever is one party 100% innocent.
When I was a third year in college, at home at summer I got a phone call
from my classmate with whom I wasn't ever close. I was surprised but
went to meet him: turned out he was just out of military hospital, shot
at close range in Kabul.
We set in the city park and he told me that they are taking him back
there and then something very simple - "I am scared like hell, I do not
want to die".
In a retrospect I now understand why I like so much the Vietnam movie
"Platoon", - all I couldn't articulate from this experience is put in it:
They knock on your door - go fight for Motherland against some people
who don't even talk your language and if you are lucky you'll end up in
hospital. If not - the whole Volgograd knew what is unloaded from trains
at night during the Afghan years. But We'll remember you. - Thanks.
I am in "A walk in circles" mood, got a flue or cold - can't figure it
out. Eating Aspirin - my best friend today. Shut down the phone,
everybody screams - "where are you?" I am f*** sick at home. It is my
Christmas.
BTW, reading on line about the curry dishes.
VM.
Incognito
His necktie still stuck in the toilet? Monsieur, je ne mange pas six
jour.... so you fed him your leftovers and left. Shame on you...
Incognito
"daniloff" <mmdan...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:56f53763-caa2-4f78...@z41g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
> Or EU will save then?
No, it's just the continuation of the beginning of the process of the
progress.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> On Dec 14, 12:07 am, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr."
>
>
>>> but you are again not getting
>>> the point: UK & France don't cut a single piece from body of
>>> any nation, not shot any soldier or civilian, not shell or bomb
>>> any city.
>
> > Dresden? Budapest? Bucharest?
>
> I think they shell/bomb any enemy city in war? Surely Berlin,
>
So, you blame "Russians" for bombing Nazis and killing German
soldiers? I am sorry, but as a Russian and a Jew, I don't like Nazis
and am quite happy that Berlin was shelled and bombed and then
conquered by the Red Army.
>
> surely
> my home city, Tallinn lost about 30% of living space in two nights of
> bombing - and they totally destroyed old Hansa city of Narva - from
> historical city center, just three buildings remains.
>
> Stalin had no nukes, no heavy bombers to compete with West in bombing
> Germany.
>
So, the West **did** bomb and shell German cities. This contradicts
your earlier claim that "UK & France didn't shoot any soldier or
civilian, not shell or bomb any city".
>
> But if you think that Stalin would not use nukes/heavy
> bombers if he had own those things, you are on even lower
> level then usually.
>
So, you are accusing Stalin of the crime that, if he had nukes, he
would have used them? And if my grandmother had balls, she would be my
grandfather.
USA accuse Iran and North Korea of being "rogue nations" because they
want to build nuclear bombs. But the fact remains that the only nation
rogue and deranged enough to nuke innocent civilians, is USA and has
been such for 65 years.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr. kirjoitti:
>
> > On Dec 13, 1:45 pm, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr."
> > <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Dec 13, 1:31 pm, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
> >>> Well with finland everything was OK? :-) but you are again not getting
> >>> the point: UK & France don't cut a single piece from body of any
> >>> nation, not shot any soldier or civilian, not shell or bomb any city.
> > Tell me, Vello, which foreign cities did USSR shell/bomb? Berlin?
> > Dresden? Budapest? Bucharest?
>
> Helsinki, Turku, Vyborg, Tampere, Lahti, Lappeenranta, Mikkeli,
> Kouvola, Iisalmi, etc etc. (690 locations in Winter war alone. 2726
> raids in the winter war, another 2581 in the continuation war).
>
>
> There are still holes big as fists caused by bombs in the wall of the
> former main Post Office of Turku. (Nowadays the TeliaSonera telco has
> its premises there).
>
> >> Yes, USSR did attack Finland, but this had nothing to do with Molotov-
> >> Ribbentrop.
>
> It did.
>
Please quote the Molotov-Ribbentrop text.
>
> > But the 3 Baltic states were taken without any bombing or
> >> fighting
>
> The fact that they were taken also sealed a "round #2" of Finno-Russo
> fighting.
>
What do you mean?
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> On Dec 13, 11:45 pm, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr."
>
> <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > On Dec 13, 1:31 pm, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
> > > > Actually, the only nations, which were truly unfairly treated as the
> > > > result of the M-R Peace Treaty's secret addendum, were Latvia and
> > > > Estonia. That's bad, but the Rape of Czechia and Slovakia in 1938 was
> > > > just as bad.
>
> > > Well with finland everything was OK? :-) but you are again not getting
> > > the point: UK & France don't cut a single piece from body of any
> > > nation, not shot any soldier or civilian, not shell or bomb any city.
>
> > Yes, USSR did attack Finland, but this had nothing to do with Molotov-
> > Ribbentrop.
>
> Are you really **** or just pretending to be? Read the MRP pact,
> Finland is high in list of Soviet wishes.
>
> But the 3 Baltic states were taken without any bombing or
>
> > fighting, just as Czechoslovakia was completely divided between
> > Germany, Poland and Hungary without fighting.
>
> Sure. In that point both predators get their meal without battle.
>
What do you mean "both"? There were 3 predators in 1938: Germany,
Poland and Hungary.
>
> They
> were not so lucky in Poland, Finland and France.
>
>
>
> > > That job was done by Nazi Germany and Commie Russia.
>
> > No, Russia took the Baltics without a single shot.
>
> Again you are primitive as usual. My post: "UK & France don't cut a
> single piece from body of any
> nation, not shot any soldier or civilian, not shell or bomb any city.
> That job was done by Nazi Germany and Commie Russia.
>
Which cities did " Commie Russia" shell and bomb?
>
> and your answer: "Russia took Baltics bla bla bla..."
>
> If you continue to "create" my ideas to reply them, I stop replying -
> no point to vaste time.
>
So, which cities did " Commie Russia" shell and bomb?
>
>
> > > UK & France just
> > > had no balls to fight the predators. Bad, but no way it makes them
> > > predators as well.
>
> > Given that UK and France showed in 1938 that they wanted Nazi Germany
> > to expand eastwards and to fight "Commie Russia",
>
> It is not "given", it is just your stupidity. UK & France had no will
> to fight for right of Czechs to rule over Sudetian Germans.
>
But Germany, Poland and Hungary occupied not just Sudetenland, but ALL
of Czechia and Slovakia. Are you saying that all of Czechia and
Slovakia is the land of "Sudetian Germans"?
>
> Nothing to
> do with Russia - back then Chechoslovakia was not a way to Russia -
> Poland was.
>
Czechoslovakia was USSR's ally, together with France.
>
> USSR had no choice
>
> > but to expand its borders westward in order to fight Germany from
> > better borders.
>
> No choice? If you have no money you feel you have "no choice" but grab
> my wallet? You are real commie in stalinist terms :-)
>
What do you think about the American occupation of Iraq and
Afghanistan? Are Americans "commie in stalinist terms"?
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
Why do you want to artificially limit discussions only to topics
convenient to you?
Stalin behaved in 1939 and 1940 like UK, France and USA behave(d) in
other wars. So, were/are UK, France and USA in these wars just as bad
as Stalin?
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
Then you don't hold the Molotov-Ribbetrop Peace Treaty responsible for
the Soviet occupation of Baltic States in 1940?
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr." <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:154d739f-03df-4ef1...@b36g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
I didn't leave. He slit my throat. Here is an eyewitness account:
"So much the better," whispered Ippolit Matveyevich.
He approached the back of the chair and, drawing back his hand with
the razor, plunged the blade slantways into Ostap's throat, pulled it
out, and jumped backward towards the wall. The smooth operator gave a
gurgle like a kitchen sink sucking down the last water. Ippolit
Matveyevich managed to avoid being splashed with blood. Wiping the
wall with his jacket, he stole towards the blue door, and for a brief
moment looked back at Ostap. His body had arched twice and slumped
against the backs of the chairs. The light from the street moved
across a black puddle forming on the floor.
What is that puddle? wondered Vorobyaninov. Oh, yes, it's blood.
Comrade Bender is dead.
He unwound the slightly stained towel, threw it aside, carefully put
the razor on the floor, and left, closing the door quietly.
Finding himself in the street, Vorobyaninov scowled and, muttering
"The jewels are all mine, not just six per cent," went off to
Kalanchev Square.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> financial claims to Russia from Baltics or at least from my country.
>
http://www.ce-review.org/00/24/lithuanianews24.html
News from Lithuania
10 June 2000
Politics and foreign affairs
The Seimas passed a highly controversial resolution demanding that
Moscow's pay for damages caused by the Soviet occupation. The
resolution calls on the government to set up a delegation for talks
with Moscow on compensation by 1 September, while 1 October is the
deadline to calculate the material damage from the occupation.
http://www.hri.org/news/balkans/rferl/2005/05-06-17.rferl.html
The Lithuanian parliament adopted a resolution in 2000 that estimated
the damage of the Soviet/Russian occupation at $20 billion.
>
> Holocaust business is not a thing for honourable man.
>
Accusing Israel of being "dishonourable"? Well, Israel's compensation
claims to Germany were orders of magnitude lower than the $20 billion
that Lithuania demanded, even though the number of Jews killed was
orders of magnitude larger than the number of Lithuanians killed.
The Black Monk
Poland only occupied the majority ethnic Polish part of Czechoslovakia
that Czechoslovakia had grabbed while Poland was fighting Ukrainians
in the east. While Poland's efforts to regain ethnic Polish lands
were ironic given its own occupation of majority-ethnic Ukrainian
territory in Galicia, it was not comparable to what Germany did when
it occupied Prague and the rest.
Moreover, Poland's action used logic similar to that of the Soviets:
since the Germans are expanding their terruitories and the Czechs will
not fight them anyways, why not increase our own territory a bit and
spare ethnic Poles from German rule?
regards,
BM
>
>
>
> > Nothing to
> > do with Russia - back then Chechoslovakia was not a way to Russia -
> > Poland was.
>
> Czechoslovakia was USSR's ally, together with France.
>
>
>
> > USSR had no choice
>
> > > but to expand its borders westward in order to fight Germany from
> > > better borders.
>
> > No choice? If you have no money you feel you have "no choice" but grab
> > my wallet? You are real commie in stalinist terms :-)
>
> What do you think about the American occupation of Iraq and
> Afghanistan? Are Americans "commie in stalinist terms"?
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Look, the Soviet occupation of the Baltics and East Europe after WW2
> > > was a crime, but before WW2, UK and France pushed Germany to fight
> > > USSR, and USSR had to react.
>
> > UK & France don't attack anyone. Surely if there would be choice, will
> > Hitler go on Russia or UK & France, their choice would be: go to
> > Russia. Suicidal guys normally don't make it to the posts of primes
> > and presidents. about "pushing", you are primitive as usual. Poland
> > was the way from Germany to Russia (and, don't forget, from Russia to
> > Germany. If West would want war between Germany and Russia, not
> > supporting Poland would been their first move. Attac to Poland means
> > Führers way to East - so why to mess him with war declarations? Wake
> > up from somnambulic soviet dreams.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Anton
> On Dec 14, 10:43 am, Anton <anton.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Yes, USSR did attack Finland, but this had nothing to do with Molotov-
>>>> Ribbentrop.
>> It did.
> Please quote the Molotov-Ribbentrop text.
Why? Historians agree on the interpretation of the agreement. Even Russians.
>>> But the 3 Baltic states were taken without any bombing or
>>>> fighting
>> The fact that they were taken also sealed a "round #2" of Finno-Russo
>> fighting.
> What do you mean?
It proved that the country could not trust that its sovereignity will be
respected by the other party. After the peace the Soviets came with more
and more demands and were constantly interfering in Finland's internal
political affairs as much as possible:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interim_Peace#Continued_Soviet_pressure
"All of this reminded the public heavily of how the Baltic Republics had
been occupied and annexed only a few months earlier. It was no wonder
that the average Finn feared that the Winter War had produced only a
short delay of the same fate."
Add to that the British disregardￜ and it should not have come as a
surprise that there were no other friend-candidates left than Germany.
ￜ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interim_Peace#British_disregard
--
Anton
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr. kirjoitti:
>
> > On Dec 14, 10:43 am, Anton <anton.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> Yes, USSR did attack Finland, but this had nothing to do with Molotov-
> >>>> Ribbentrop.
> >> It did.
> > Please quote the Molotov-Ribbentrop text.
>
> Why? Historians agree on the interpretation of the agreement. Even Russians.
>
OK.
>
> >>> But the 3 Baltic states were taken without any bombing or
> >>>> fighting
> >> The fact that they were taken also sealed a "round #2" of Finno-Russo
> >> fighting.
> > What do you mean?
>
> It proved that the country could not trust that its sovereignity will be
> respected by the other party.
>
But the secret clauses were not revealed until 1945.
>
> After the peace the Soviets came with more
> and more demands and were constantly interfering in Finland's internal
> political affairs as much as possible:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interim_Peace#Continued_Soviet_pressure
>
> "All of this reminded the public heavily of how the Baltic Republics had
> been occupied and annexed only a few months earlier. It was no wonder
> that the average Finn feared that the Winter War had produced only a
> short delay of the same fate."
>
> Add to that the British disregard¹ and it should not have come as a
> surprise that there were no other friend-candidates left than Germany.
>
> ¹)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interim_Peace#British_disregard
>
Well, Finland fought Stalin valiantly, and indeed nobody came to its
rescue.
vello
<ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 14, 7:18 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>
> > On Dec 14, 12:07 am, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr."
>
> > On Dec 13, 1:45 pm, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr."
> > > vello wrote:
>
> >>> but you are again not getting
> >>> the point: UK & France don't cut a single piece from body of
> >>> any nation, not shot any soldier or civilian, not shell or bomb
> >>> any city.
>
> > > Tell me, Vello, which foreign cities did USSR shell/bomb? Berlin?
> > > Dresden? Budapest? Bucharest?
>
> > I think they shell/bomb any enemy city in war? Surely Berlin,
>
> So, you blame "Russians" for bombing Nazis and killing German
> soldiers? I am sorry, but as a Russian and a Jew, I don't like Nazis
> and am quite happy that Berlin was shelled and bombed and then
> conquered by the Red Army.
But finnish, estonian, Latvian, Polish, Romanian cities?!?
>
>
>
> > surely
> > my home city, Tallinn lost about 30% of living space in two nights of
> > bombing - and they totally destroyed old Hansa city of Narva - from
> > historical city center, just three buildings remains.
>
> > Stalin had no nukes, no heavy bombers to compete with West in bombing
> > Germany.
>
> So, the West **did** bomb and shell German cities. This contradicts
> your earlier claim that "UK & France didn't shoot any soldier or
> civilian, not shell or bomb any city".
West "did" it when in war with Germany. We talk about pre-war period
when West don't ask for a single inch of territory belonging to others
- just Germany and USSR.
>
>
>
> > But if you think that Stalin would not use nukes/heavy
> > bombers if he had own those things, you are on even lower
> > level then usually.
>
> So, you are accusing Stalin of the crime that, if he had nukes, he
> would have used them? And if my grandmother had balls, she would be my
> grandfather.
you are stupid as usual. well maybe not stupid but pretending to be.
If in serious war, ANY party will use ALL weapons available. So did
germans, russians, yanks and brits.
The Black Monk
> On Dec 16, 2:39 am, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr."
>
>
>
>
>
> <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > On Dec 14, 7:18 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 14, 12:07 am, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr."
>
> > > On Dec 13, 1:45 pm, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr."
> > > > vello wrote:
>
> > >>> but you are again not getting
> > >>> the point: UK & France don't cut a single piece from body of
> > >>> any nation, not shot any soldier or civilian, not shell or bomb
> > >>> any city.
>
> > > > Tell me, Vello, which foreign cities did USSR shell/bomb? Berlin?
> > > > Dresden? Budapest? Bucharest?
>
> > > I think they shell/bomb any enemy city in war? Surely Berlin,
>
> > So, you blame "Russians" for bombing Nazis and killing German
> > soldiers? I am sorry, but as a Russian and a Jew, I don't like Nazis
> > and am quite happy that Berlin was shelled and bombed and then
> > conquered by the Red Army.
>
> But finnish, estonian, Latvian, Polish, Romanian cities?!?
According to Silesian Poles I've spoken to, when they conquered the
territory Soviets tried to leave ethnic Poles alone but deliberately
destroyed the houses of their German neighbors.
regards,
BM
>
>
>
> > > surely
> > > my home city, Tallinn lost about 30% of living space in two nights of
> > > bombing - and they totally destroyed old Hansa city of Narva - from
> > > historical city center, just three buildings remains.
>
> > > Stalin had no nukes, no heavy bombers to compete with West in bombing
> > > Germany.
>
> > So, the West **did** bomb and shell German cities. This contradicts
> > your earlier claim that "UK & France didn't shoot any soldier or
> > civilian, not shell or bomb any city".
>
> West "did" it when in war with Germany. We talk about pre-war period
> when West don't ask for a single inch of territory belonging to others
> - just Germany and USSR.
>
>
>
> > > But if you think that Stalin would not use nukes/heavy
> > > bombers if he had own those things, you are on even lower
> > > level then usually.
>
> > So, you are accusing Stalin of the crime that, if he had nukes, he
> > would have used them? And if my grandmother had balls, she would be my
> > grandfather.
>
> you are stupid as usual. well maybe not stupid but pretending to be.
> If in serious war, ANY party will use ALL weapons available. So did
> germans, russians, yanks and brits.
>
>
>
>
>
> > USA accuse Iran and North Korea of being "rogue nations" because they
> > want to build nuclear bombs. But the fact remains that the only nation
> > rogue and deranged enough to nuke innocent civilians, is USA and has
> > been such for 65 years.- Hide quoted text -
vello
I'm open to any topics. Just I hope, if we are talking about
particular case, your response will be in borders of that case. If we
will take a next one, we can talk about that - without jumping into
affairs not related to that case.
>
> Stalin behaved in 1939 and 1940 like UK, France and USA behave(d) in
> other wars. So, were/are UK, France and USA in these wars just as bad
> as Stalin?
Yes, Caesar when occupying Terra Gallica was as bad as Stalin or
Hitler - are you happy with that?
vello
Well, who was responsibe - it was Soviet Union occupying those
countries.
>
-
vello
Are you a idiot? READ my post, it was about MY country - it is Estonia
if you don't know.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> On Dec 16, 2:39 am, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr."
>
>
>
> <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > On Dec 14, 7:18 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 14, 12:07 am, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr."
>
> > > On Dec 13, 1:45 pm, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr."
> > > > vello wrote:
>
> > >>> but you are again not getting
> > >>> the point: UK & France don't cut a single piece from body of
> > >>> any nation, not shot any soldier or civilian, not shell or bomb
> > >>> any city.
>
> > > > Tell me, Vello, which foreign cities did USSR shell/bomb? Berlin?
> > > > Dresden? Budapest? Bucharest?
>
> > > I think they shell/bomb any enemy city in war? Surely Berlin,
>
> > So, you blame "Russians" for bombing Nazis and killing German
> > soldiers? I am sorry, but as a Russian and a Jew, I don't like Nazis
> > and am quite happy that Berlin was shelled and bombed and then
> > conquered by the Red Army.
>
> But finnish, estonian, Latvian, Polish, Romanian cities?!?
>
The Soviet Union also had to shell its own cities, because it was
trying to kick the Germans/Romanians/Italians/Hungarians out of them.
So what? Are you saying that the Brits and Americans never shelled any
German-occupied towns and cities in France, Italy and other countries
that they liberated from Germans? How else could you liberate these
places from German occupation?
Are you saying that USSR used shelling/bombing of Nazi-occupied cities
more extensively than their Western allies? If so - could that be due
to the fact that German forces on the Eastern Front were orders of
magnitude more numerous and superior compared to those used on the
Western Front, where teenage German soldiers, equipped with obsolete
WWI artillery, offered relatively little resistance to the Allies.
>
> > > surely
> > > my home city, Tallinn lost about 30% of living space in two nights of
> > > bombing - and they totally destroyed old Hansa city of Narva - from
> > > historical city center, just three buildings remains.
>
> > > Stalin had no nukes, no heavy bombers to compete with West in bombing
> > > Germany.
>
> > So, the West **did** bomb and shell German cities. This contradicts
> > your earlier claim that "UK & France didn't shoot any soldier or
> > civilian, not shell or bomb any city".
>
> West "did" it when in war with Germany. We talk about pre-war period
> when West don't ask for a single inch of territory belonging to others
> - just Germany and USSR.
>
>
>
> > > But if you think that Stalin would not use nukes/heavy
> > > bombers if he had own those things, you are on even lower
> > > level then usually.
>
> > So, you are accusing Stalin of the crime that, if he had nukes, he
> > would have used them? And if my grandmother had balls, she would be my
> > grandfather.
>
> you are stupid as usual.
>
Look, Vello, I have ignored your childish insults for a long time, but
everything has its limits. I assure you that I am smarter than you
are, as are most other people I know.
>
> well maybe not stupid but pretending to be.
> If in serious war, ANY party will use ALL weapons available. So did
> germans, russians, yanks and brits.
>
So, why do you claim that "UK & France didn't shoot any soldier or
civilian, not shell or bomb any city".
I am asking trivial-sounding questions because I am trying to get you
to understand my points.
Accusing people of crimes that they never committed, is stupid; even
if you believe that these people are capable of such crimes under
different circumstances.
Anton
> On Dec 16, 2:07 am, Anton <anton.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> But the 3 Baltic states were taken without any bombing or
>>>>>> fighting
>>>> The fact that they were taken also sealed a "round #2" of Finno-Russo
>>>> fighting.
>>> What do you mean?
>> It proved that the country could not trust that its sovereignity will be
>> respected by the other party.
> But the secret clauses were not revealed until 1945.
It is not relevant, since the _real intentions_ of the parties of said
contract were revealed much earlier (events of 1939-1941).
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interim_Peace#Continued_Soviet_pressure
>> "All of this reminded the public heavily of how the Baltic Republics had
>> been occupied and annexed only a few months earlier. It was no wonder
>> that the average Finn feared that the Winter War had produced only a
>> short delay of the same fate."
>> Add to that the British disregardￜ and it should not have come as a
>> surprise that there were no other friend-candidates left than Germany.
>> ￜ)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interim_Peace#British_disregard
> Well, Finland fought Stalin valiantly, and indeed nobody came to its
> rescue.
Finland asked Sweden and UK for help, but got rejected. Then they asked
Germany - and got rejected. Then after some time the Germans changed
their minds, but they had conditions for selling us materials so we
could defend ourselves.
This is however history, and at this stage it is more important to learn
not to repeat it instead of celebrating victories.
(It does not help that there is a link on the official pages of Russian
Ministry of Defence to a blog where the author writes about "murderous
Finnish fascists". That kind of activity will only provoke similar
bigotry among "revanchist" nationalistic elements on the Finnish side.)
--
Anton
Anton
> (It does not help that there is a link on the official pages of Russian
> Ministry of Defence to a blog where the author writes about "murderous
> Finnish fascists". That kind of activity will only provoke similar
> bigotry among "revanchist" nationalistic elements on the Finnish side.)
...as to "fascists" it should be noted, that you being a Russian Jew,
should know, that as a response to an inquiry of the Germans regarding
the "Jewish Question" Mannerheim replied harshly: "You are not touching
my boys!" and the matter was not discussed any further.
As several times pointed out here in s.c.b, as a matter of an really
awkward fact: several Finnish Jews recieved honours such as the Iron
Cross from the Germans for their bravery in battle.
--
Anton
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
Have I ever accused Finns of anti-semitism?
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr. kirjoitti:
>
> > On Dec 16, 2:07 am, Anton <anton.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> But the 3 Baltic states were taken without any bombing or
> >>>>>> fighting
> >>>> The fact that they were taken also sealed a "round #2" of Finno-Russo
> >>>> fighting.
> >>> What do you mean?
> >> It proved that the country could not trust that its sovereignity will be
> >> respected by the other party.
> > But the secret clauses were not revealed until 1945.
>
> It is not relevant, since the _real intentions_ of the parties of said
> contract were revealed much earlier (events of 1939-1941).
>
**Separate** intentions.
The anti-Russian propaganda tries to portray Nazi Germany and Soviet
Union as allies and soul-mates throughout the 1930s.
>
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Interim_Peace#Continued_Soviet_pressure
> >> "All of this reminded the public heavily of how the Baltic Republics had
> >> been occupied and annexed only a few months earlier. It was no wonder
> >> that the average Finn feared that the Winter War had produced only a
> >> short delay of the same fate."
> >> Add to that the British disregard¹ and it should not have come as a
> >> surprise that there were no other friend-candidates left than Germany.
> >> ¹)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interim_Peace#British_disregard
Anton
>> Anton kirjoitti:
>> ...as to "fascists" it should be noted, that you being a Russian Jew,
>> should know, that as a response to an inquiry of the Germans regarding
>> the "Jewish Question" Mannerheim replied harshly: "You are not touching
>> my boys!" and the matter was not discussed any further.
>> As several times pointed out here in s.c.b, as a matter of an really
>> awkward fact: several Finnish Jews recieved honours such as the Iron
>> Cross from the Germans for their bravery in battle.
> Have I ever accused Finns of anti-semitism?
Probably not. However once in a while Finns are labeled as 'fascists' in
this group. Probably you are not one of them. What I wrote was a
sidenote just to remind of that fact for some of the pro-Kremlinￜ guys
(Misha 'The Bear') that might be tempted to fascist-calling.
The Finnish stance on the 'Jewish question' demonstrates very clearly
that at no stage was the country allowed to be 'Natzified'. The facts
simply do not in any way support the 'but Finns wre fascists!' argument.
Hopefully that false claim is debunked once and for all - at least in
s.c.b.
ￜ) One reason I brought it up again is the column/blog on the official
pages of the Russian Ministry Of Defence where Finns are referred to as
'fascists'. This column raised many eyebrows among the ordinary Finns.
It mentioned something in the line of 'Germans have repented their
fascist past - but the Finns have yet to do so'.
Probably that kind of stuff is mainly intended for the home crowd, and
serve as a reminder for the official Finland that "were still here and
we still remember", but it is also unneccesary provocation that only
will result in increased russophobic sentiments among the population. I
don't see that approach of the RF as constructive at all - for either
country.
--
Anton
Anton
> On Dec 18, 1:50 am, Anton <anton.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> But the secret clauses were not revealed until 1945.
>> It is not relevant, since the _real intentions_ of the parties of said
>> contract were revealed much earlier (events of 1939-1941).
> **Separate** intentions.
Well both had the intent to expand their empires. It is up to "what if"
speculation if not the Germans had made the first move. It *might* be
possible that the USSR had remained dormant in this regard had it not
been for aggressive expansionist German actions "making the first moves"
of "the game". The fact is the USSR occupied east Poland, Bessarabia,
the three Baltic countries and attempted to occupy Finland.
> The anti-Russian propaganda tries to portray Nazi Germany and Soviet
> Union as allies and soul-mates throughout the 1930s.
Certainly they had idological differences and conflicting interests, but
also many things in common. I don't think it is entirely wrong to call
the two states as "the two predators", seen from the perspective of East
and North Europe.
--
Anton
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr. kirjoitti:
>
> > On Dec 18, 1:50 am, Anton <anton.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> But the secret clauses were not revealed until 1945.
> >> It is not relevant, since the _real intentions_ of the parties of said
> >> contract were revealed much earlier (events of 1939-1941).
> > **Separate** intentions.
>
> Well both had the intent to expand their empires. It is up to "what if"
> speculation if not the Germans had made the first move. It *might* be
> possible that the USSR had remained dormant in this regard had it not
> been for aggressive expansionist German actions "making the first moves"
> of "the game". The fact is the USSR occupied east Poland,
>
I don't think USSR occupied any Polish territories at all in 1939.
What it did was liberate the territories that the Poland annexed from
Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine around 1920; plus it took away Western
Ukraine, which had been under Polish rule for centuries but certainly
was not Polish.
>
> Bessarabia,
> the three Baltic countries and attempted to occupy Finland.
>
Yes.
>
> > The anti-Russian propaganda tries to portray Nazi Germany and Soviet
> > Union as allies and soul-mates throughout the 1930s.
>
> Certainly they had idological differences and conflicting interests, but
> also many things in common. I don't think it is entirely wrong to call
> the two states as "the two predators", seen from the perspective of East
> and North Europe.
>
Yes, they were predators. But predators usually don't get along with
each other.
vello
Finally, sure. There is no room for multiple Gods in Universe. But
before final battle they may well cooperate as we both know. Military
rebirth of Germany after ww1 happens in big part on territory of USSR.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
Not "finally". From the very start. Hitler came to power as the result
of his struggle against German Communists, backed by Moscow.
In 1936, they collided in the Spanish Civil War.
In 1938, Germany, Poland and Hungary occupied Czechoslovakia, USSR's
ally, over Soviet verbal protestations and anger.
Etc.
Dmitry
<ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 18, 5:20 am, Anton <anton.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr. kirjoitti:
>
> > > On Dec 18, 1:50 am, Anton <anton.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>> But the secret clauses were not revealed until 1945.
> > >> It is not relevant, since the _real intentions_ of the parties of said
> > >> contract were revealed much earlier (events of 1939-1941).
> > > **Separate** intentions.
>
> > Well both had the intent to expand their empires. It is up to "what if"
> > speculation if not the Germans had made the first move. It *might* be
> > possible that the USSR had remained dormant in this regard had it not
> > been for aggressive expansionist German actions "making the first moves"
> > of "the game". The fact is the USSR occupied east Poland,
>
> I don't think USSR occupied any Polish territories at all in 1939.
> What it did was liberate the territories that the Poland annexed from
> Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine around 1920; plus it took away Western
> Ukraine, which had been under Polish rule for centuries but certainly
> was not Polish.
It was certainly not Soviet. I'm sure Sovok would occupy more places
if it could. This comes from traditional Russian greed for
territories. Not only Bolsheviks picked up the worst parts of Russian
legacy, but added lots of new features, such as compulsory
"razruha" (well outlined by Bulgakov in "sobachje serdce")
What USSR did in 1939/40 was occupation, not liberation, and was part
of dividing Eastern Europe between USSR and Germany. I don't really
understand why you believe in this "liberation" myth. You are an
intelligent person, I think. Or are you just trying to steer the
argument?
> > > The anti-Russian propaganda tries to portray Nazi Germany and Soviet
> > > Union as allies and soul-mates throughout the 1930s.
>
> > Certainly they had idological differences and conflicting interests, but
> > also many things in common. I don't think it is entirely wrong to call
> > the two states as "the two predators", seen from the perspective of East
> > and North Europe.
>
> Yes, they were predators. But predators usually don't get along with
> each other.
Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. But as far I am aware Iosif
Stalin believed in of M-R pact of non-aggression and this is one of
the reasons why initially Hitler's army entered SU without any major
resistance (yes, I know, partisans and Brest "krepost'", but overall
German army just walked in).
Maris
<ostap_be...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>
>No, Russia took the Baltics without a single shot.
>
>>
Not true. And yes, I see you use 'Russia' rather than 'the Soviet
Union'. The Russians murdered several Latvian border guards before
taking Latvia. I assume that they did the same with Estonia and
Lithuania.
Maris
Vladimir Makarenko
I gladly sign up on every line you put out but I'd like to ask the same
question which always ignored here every time:
OK, these two were murderous predators. But what about the others? They
were "civilized" on the continent but what they were doing around the
world? In the mid of XX cent they were running their empires using guns
and slavery. How this measures against the crimes of Nazi and Soviet
regimes?
I can tell you where I am going with this - today's version of the
history is very Eurocentric, "you cannot kill in Europe, you want to go
on a killing spree - go global, not in the house". This is why Roosskies
are so cynical when Europe lectures them on how evil their past is. We
at least do not have a genocide on record. West Europe does.
VM.
Anton
I don't care what the definition of "genocide" is, but USSR *has* plenty
of mass murders on its resum�. As for West Europe, the values it has
today have been forming gradually and slowly over time. It is a good
start to treat your own citizens and neighbours properly. You do need to
start somewhere. (I personally believe many ordinary Russians my age
share most of my values, or the same as Germans or British or..)
As to 20th century colonialism if I remember right, the governments did
not bother too much to interfere in details, and leadership in colonies
took matters in their own hands. However if you'd like a quality
discussion on this topic find some Brits, French or Belgians to discuss
this.
--
Anton
Vladimir Makarenko
May I ask a simple question: against Soviet Gulag - how many died in the
time in the West?
> As for West Europe, the values it has
> today have been forming gradually and slowly over time.
Except when it comes to giant body of Russia you always say - right NOW!
> It is a good
> start to treat your own citizens and neighbours properly. You do need to
> start somewhere. (I personally believe many ordinary Russians my age
> share most of my values, or the same as Germans or British or..)
>
This is what I repeat here again and again - We Russians are slow, in
difference`with you it takes time to turn around, to recognize the
simplest facts. Just compare us to a big whale - you are dolphins, we
are whales, - heavy and slow.
> As to 20th century colonialism if I remember right, the governments did
> not bother too much to interfere in details, and leadership in colonies
> took matters in their own hands. However if you'd like a quality
> discussion on this topic find some Brits, French or Belgians to discuss
> this.
>
But you let them go not Russians to get away. They killed in numbers but
it was not in Europe.
VM.
Anton
> Anton wrote:
>>> I can tell you where I am going with this - today's version of the
>>> history is very Eurocentric, "you cannot kill in Europe, you want to
>>> go on a killing spree - go global, not in the house". This is why
>>> Roosskies are so cynical when Europe lectures them on how evil their
>>> past is. We at least do not have a genocide on record. West Europe does.
>>>
>>> VM.
>> I don't care what the definition of "genocide" is, but USSR *has*
>> plenty of mass murders on its resum�.
>
> May I ask a simple question: against Soviet Gulag - how many died in the
> time in the West?
In what time frame? 1920-1950? I suppose very few were killed by their
own government. My country has not been involved in colonialism. I do
not have the most exhaustive answers on that topic.
>> As for West Europe, the values it has today have been forming
>> gradually and slowly over time.
> Except when it comes to giant body of Russia you always say - right NOW!
Until 1991 they did not have any say in this. After that most people
were probably concerned with how to get enough to eat. After the worst
years probably the ordinary citizen is more concerned of his/her private
economy and private matters like a job, how to pay the mortgages etc.
What I have read about mentality of ordinary Russians they make a sharp
separation of family and friends and the government/society apparatus.
That is their way of protecting themselves, but also their weakness in
letting the fox in the hen house... all kinds of evil people are allowed
to run the show because most sane people want to stay as far away as
possible from "cold" apparatus of government.
>> It is a good start to treat your own citizens and neighbours properly.
>> You do need to start somewhere. (I personally believe many ordinary
>> Russians my age share most of my values, or the same as Germans or
>> British or..)
> This is what I repeat here again and again - We Russians are slow, in
> difference`with you it takes time to turn around, to recognize the
> simplest facts. Just compare us to a big whale - you are dolphins, we
> are whales, - heavy and slow.
If you are tiny plankton you don't want to face the mouth of the whale.
But I believe ordinary people are basically the same: they want to live
a peaceful life; cover the bills, have something meaningful activity to
occupy them selves with, watch their children grow, have a little warm
gl�gg to drink at cold nights ;)
>> As to 20th century colonialism if I remember right, the governments
>> did not bother too much to interfere in details, and leadership in
>> colonies took matters in their own hands. However if you'd like a
>> quality discussion on this topic find some Brits, French or Belgians
>> to discuss this.
> But you let them go not Russians to get away. They killed in numbers but
> it was not in Europe.
Probably because that chapter is closed? Has been like that since a long
time ago. Both the perpetrators and the victims have wanted to move on.
Moscow on the other hand still plays the fanfare of 1945, and still
longs for "glory" (that including borders) of the past.
Footnote: In some ways propaganda of Putin's Russia is even worse than
that of Breshnev's USSR: there would never have been a public column on
"fascist Finns" in a USSR government medium. In the old days sometimes
SU-Finnish relations were just rhetoric, but after the early "frost"
years both governments realized it will be better PR to demonstrate a
constructive face. Putin's society on the other hand has had quite a
different, provocative, "thuggish" face, which the Finnish government
has officially ignored, but which has not gone unnoticed by the ordinary
Finn.
--
Anton
Dmitry
> question which always ignored here every time:
> OK, these two were murderous predators. But what about the others? They
> were "civilized" on the continent but what they were doing around the
> world? In the mid of XX cent they were running their empires using guns
> and slavery.
Friend of mine from Pondicherry said that they didn't want French to
go. Goa’s people were also keen to hold on to Portuguese rule.
> How this measures against the crimes of Nazi and Soviet
> regimes?
By the time of WWII British colonialism didn't behave as bad as Soviet
and Nazi. Britain abolished slavery in 1833, Russia in 1861, USA in
1865. Nazi and Soviets introduced it back in a different package.
> I can tell you where I am going with this - today's version of the
> history is very Eurocentric, "you cannot kill in Europe, you want to go
> on a killing spree - go global, not in the house". This is why Roosskies
> are so cynical when Europe lectures them on how evil their past is. We
> at least do not have a genocide on record. West Europe does.
You may have read some articles now and then, but overall Europe is
not lecturing Russia, particularly on historical issues. All parties
have been in the same business of imperialism not too long ago (from
wiki):
Tsarist Russia is not often regarded as a colonial power such as the
United Kingdom or France because of the manner of Russian expansions:
unlike the United Kingdom, which expanded overseas, the Russian empire
grew from the centre outward by a process of accretion, like the
United States. In the nineteenth century, Russian expansion took the
form of a struggle of an effectively landlocked country for access to
a warm water port.
While the British were consolidating their hold on India, Russian
expansion had moved steadily eastward to the Pacific, then toward the
Middle East, and finally to the frontiers of Persia and Afghanistan
(both territories adjacent to British holdings in India). In response,
the defense of India's land frontiers and the control of all sea
approaches to the Subcontinent via the Suez Canal, the Red Sea, and
the Persian Gulf became preoccupations of British foreign policy in
the nineteenth century.
Anglo-Russian rivalry in the Middle East and Central Asia led to a
brief confrontation over Afghanistan in the 1870s. In Persia (now
Iran), both nations set up banks to extend their economic influence.
The United Kingdom went so far as to invade Tibet, a land under
nominal Chinese suzerainty, in 1904, but withdrew when it became clear
that Russian influence was insignificant and when Chinese resistance
proved tougher than expected.
In 1907, the United Kingdom and Russia signed an agreement which — on
the surface —ended their rivalry in Central Asia. (see Anglo-Russian
Entente) As part of the entente, Russia agreed to deal with the
sovereign of Afghanistan only through British intermediaries. In turn,
the United Kingdom would not annex or occupy Afghanistan. Chinese
suzerainty over Tibet also was recognised by both Russia and the
United Kingdom, since nominal control by a weak China was preferable
to control by either power. Persia was divided into Russian and
British spheres of influence and an intervening "neutral" zone. The
United Kingdom and Russia chose to reach these uneasy compromises
because of growing concern on the part of both powers over German
expansion in strategic areas of China and Africa.
Following the entente, Russia increasingly intervened in Persian
domestic politics and suppressed nationalist movements that threatened
both St. Petersburg and London. After the Russian Revolution, Russia
gave up its claim to a sphere of influence, though Soviet involvement
persisted alongside the United Kingdom's until the 1940s.
In the Middle East, a German company built a railroad from
Constantinople to Baghdad and the Persian Gulf. Germany wanted to gain
economic influence in the region and then, perhaps, move on to Iran
and India. This was met with bitter resistance by the United Kingdom,
Russia, and France who divided the region among themselves.
Since then Western Europe has moved a long way - Russia, as you said,
is slow. Any thoughts of why it is so slow? Is it the size?
>
> VM.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
wrote:
>
> May I ask a simple question: against Soviet Gulag - how many died in the
> time in the West?
>
> > As for West Europe, the values it has
> > today have been forming gradually and slowly over time.
>
> Except when it comes to giant body of Russia you always say - right NOW!
>
> > It is a good
> > start to treat your own citizens and neighbours properly. You do need to
> > start somewhere. (I personally believe many ordinary Russians my age
> > share most of my values, or the same as Germans or British or..)
>
> This is what I repeat here again and again - We Russians are slow, in
> difference`with you it takes time to turn around, to recognize the
> simplest facts. Just compare us to a big whale - you are dolphins, we
> are whales, - heavy and slow.
>
> > As to 20th century colonialism if I remember right, the governments did
> > not bother too much to interfere in details, and leadership in colonies
> > took matters in their own hands. However if you'd like a quality
> > discussion on this topic find some Brits, French or Belgians to discuss
> > this.
>
> But you let them go not Russians to get away. They killed in numbers but
> it was not in Europe.
>
You don't have to go far. Take as an example the current propaganda
hooplah over Golodomor, written as "Holodomor" to make it look like
"Holocaust": the mass famine in Ukraine, Russia and Kazakhstan, due to
Stlain's collectivization, sale of crops abroad, de-kulakization, and
bad weather. Only the deaths of Ukrainians are bemoaned, while the
deaths of millions of Russians and especially Kazakhs are not even
mentioned, a clearly racist attitude.
Vladimir Makarenko
That is where when you get it right - I will crawl on my bleeding knees
but to Vello's house or Tadas, Daniloff, John, never to the one of
Russian government. You trust people not the system. And maybe it is
right: to trust people. Because if we take some abstract person like
Henry who left us - even projecting on me as a Rooskie or Harlamov who
is Jewish, I can assure you he would swear dirty language but cover us.
And Tadas would do.
Russian government - Boy,- here is your AKM, go fight for Motherland!
But you are a Finn, you have no clue about what Motherland can demand
from you- at a gun point: Either - Or. Rather "or": Die - we will
build a monument to you- later ,but right now - face them and die like a
hero because we screwed. But if what I don't want to die like a hero?
Anyway - I am not angry, just trying to build a bridge over the abyss.
For me in some sense Vello because he had served in Soviet Army (I'd
been too) he somehow is a person of trust. The one who were through this
monster deserves trust. Been there, know that. Ugly there.
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
>> I gladly sign up on every line you put out but I'd like to ask the same
>> question which always ignored here every time:
>> OK, these two were murderous predators. But what about the others? They
>> were "civilized" on the continent but what they were doing around the
>> world? In the mid of XX cent they were running their empires using guns
>> and slavery.
>
> Friend of mine from Pondicherry said that they didn't want French to
> the surface �ended their rivalry in Central Asia. (see Anglo-Russian
> Entente) As part of the entente, Russia agreed to deal with the
> sovereign of Afghanistan only through British intermediaries. In turn,
> the United Kingdom would not annex or occupy Afghanistan. Chinese
> suzerainty over Tibet also was recognised by both Russia and the
> United Kingdom, since nominal control by a weak China was preferable
> to control by either power. Persia was divided into Russian and
> British spheres of influence and an intervening "neutral" zone. The
> United Kingdom and Russia chose to reach these uneasy compromises
> because of growing concern on the part of both powers over German
> expansion in strategic areas of China and Africa.
> Following the entente, Russia increasingly intervened in Persian
> domestic politics and suppressed nationalist movements that threatened
> both St. Petersburg and London. After the Russian Revolution, Russia
> gave up its claim to a sphere of influence, though Soviet involvement
> persisted alongside the United Kingdom's until the 1940s.
> In the Middle East, a German company built a railroad from
> Constantinople to Baghdad and the Persian Gulf. Germany wanted to gain
> economic influence in the region and then, perhaps, move on to Iran
> and India. This was met with bitter resistance by the United Kingdom,
> Russia, and France who divided the region among themselves.
>
> Since then Western Europe has moved a long way - Russia, as you said,
> is slow. Any thoughts of why it is so slow? Is it the size?
>
>
>> VM.
>
For a few moments you sent me mute - with your knowledge of History -
then I came back, rearranged my troops- still ask very simple question
- in the middle of XX th cent your beloved WE Empires were
excersising guns and slavery.
They gave up colonies not for be nice but ugly and losing fight. Like
Soviets they were bleeding.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
Size - somewhat. But mostly:
1. The Communist rule for 75 years.
2. Before 1917, Russia was behind most other European countries,
although catching up fast, like Japan.
Dmitry
> Dmitry wrote:
> >> I gladly sign up on every line you put out but I'd like to ask the same
> >> question which always ignored here every time:
> >> OK, these two were murderous predators. But what about the others? They
> >> were "civilized" on the continent but what they were doing around the
> >> world? In the mid of XX cent they were running their empires using guns
> >> and slavery.
>
> > Friend of mine from Pondicherry said that they didn't want French to
> > the surface ended their rivalry in Central Asia. (see Anglo-Russian
Which WE countries were exercising slavery in the middle of XX cent?
Guns - still exercising now (particularly UK).
> They gave up colonies not for be nice but ugly and losing fight. Like
> Soviets they were bleeding.
"WE Empires" have moved on since then. Soviet Union got stuck decades
behind.
Dmitry
> > is slow. Any thoughts of why it is so slow? Is it the size?
>
> Size - somewhat. But mostly:
>
> 1. The Communist rule for 75 years.
That was the biggest "tormoz", which cut Russia from what we now call
a developed world.
> 2. Before 1917, Russia was behind most other European countries,
> although catching up fast, like Japan.
If "Sharikovs" didn't win the contest Russia could probably be a
different kind of country today. You never know. It has lots of
land, natural resources etc. Just needed a good management system
instead of dictatorship.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> > > Since then Western Europe has moved a long way - Russia, as you said,
> > > is slow. Any thoughts of why it is so slow? Is it the size?
>
> > Size - somewhat. But mostly:
>
> > 1. The Communist rule for 75 years.
>
> That was the biggest "tormoz", which cut Russia from what we now call
> a developed world.
>
> > 2. Before 1917, Russia was behind most other European countries,
> > although catching up fast, like Japan.
>
> If "Sharikovs" didn't win the contest Russia could probably be a
> different kind of country today.
>
Agree.
>
> You never know. It has lots of
> land, natural resources etc. Just needed a good management system
> instead of dictatorship.
>
Give it time. Japan and Germany too used to be quite backward by
European standards.
Anton
> Give it time. Japan and Germany too used to be quite backward by
> European standards.
When was Germany backward? In the 1700's?
--
Anton
vello
Before AD 400 :-)
Vladimir Makarenko
Are you in business to make me mute? THEY ALL DID: the only reason to
use guns when you need slaves. Forget about me have watch "Indochina" movie.
Or read what the British did in Kenya already after WWII and history of
genocide in Europe.
>
>> They gave up colonies not for be nice but ugly and losing fight. Like
>> Soviets they were bleeding.
>
> "WE Empires" have moved on since then. Soviet Union got stuck decades
> behind.
Zero delay on a history time. Btw didn't they support South Africa
Apartheid till the very last moment? I mean Soviets were ideologically
stupid but at least it led to their resolute rejection of South Africa.
Soviets got their tribute from around the world not foe few bucks (they
didn't have it anyway) but for gestures like rejection of colonial
racist politics of WE. Maybe only on words but for the world which was
hungry it was enough.
I am not trying to equal Soviets to WE, not sure still about America,
but WE was far very far from some exemplary humanistic society. French
in yet sixties were butchering Algiers, Belgium - Kongo, etc.
What I give a credit to WE how fast in comparison with a behemoth of the
USSR they figured out that they have to change their ways.
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
Germany was a disaster till last quarter of XIX cent: really there was
no Germany.
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
Aha, are you in a mood for many many hours argument?
VM.
Anton
In that case there was no Finland until december 1917 either.
--
Anton
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
It was politically backward all of the 19th century as well as in
1933-1945.
Or, as Tom Lehrer put it in his satire song:
http://dmdb.org/lyrics/lehrer.tw3.html
Sleep, baby, sleep, in peace may you slumber,
No danger lurks, your sleep to encumber.
We've got the missiles peace to determine,
And one of the fingers on the button will be German.
Once all the Germans were warlike and mean,
But that couldn't happen again.
We taught them a lesson in 1918
And they've hardly bothered us since then.
Anton
> On Dec 28, 11:20 pm, Anton <anton.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr. kirjoitti:
>>> Give it time. Japan and Germany too used to be quite backward by
>>> European standards.
>> When was Germany backward? In the 1700's?
> It was politically backward all of the 19th century
In most other areas it was not. In the 16th century Germany was
progressive, while for instance Rome was corrupt and regressive.
> as well as in
> 1933-1945.
Ironically Germany at the time was the most advanced in fields of
science and technology. Both USA and USSR were in a hurry to occupy
Germany in order to grab then superior German technology and scientists.
--
Anton
vello
wrote:
not true. thee was no united Germany, but German lands were well, rich
and developed.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr. kirjoitti:
>
> > On Dec 28, 11:20 pm, Anton <anton.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr. kirjoitti:
> >>> Give it time. Japan and Germany too used to be quite backward by
> >>> European standards.
> >> When was Germany backward? In the 1700's?
> > It was politically backward all of the 19th century
>
> In most other areas it was not. In the 16th century Germany was
> progressive, while for instance Rome was corrupt and regressive.
>
OK, I meant Prussia.
>
> > as well as in
> > 1933-1945.
>
> Ironically Germany at the time was the most advanced in fields of
> science and technology. Both USA and USSR were in a hurry to occupy
> Germany in order to grab then superior German technology and scientists.
>
Not really. The Germans made sure back in the 1930s that USA would get
many of the best European scientists.
To repeat the same joke once again:
http://niniane.blogspot.com/2009/06/bagel.html
David told a story of his friend visiting recently from Berlin. He
took the friend around Manhattan. They stopped at a bagel shop.
Friend: "This bagel is amazing. I wish we could have bagels this good
in Germany."
David: "Well, whose fault is that??"
Same for science.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
Not Prussia.
vello
Also Preussen. Maybe behind of Swiss and some other places but well
anyway.
Dmitry
> > Guns - still exercising now (particularly UK).
>
> Are you in business to make me mute? THEY ALL DID: the only reason to
> use guns when you need slaves. Forget about me have watch "Indochina" movie.
> Or read what the British did in Kenya already after WWII
Do you mean Mau Mau rebelion? It was to do with land ownership and
political power, not slavery. What British did there was brutal, but
the atrocities were committed on both sides. However, that was the
beginning of the end of British colonialism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:British_Decolonisation_in_Africa.png
> and history of
> genocide in Europe.
> > "WE Empires" have moved on since then. Soviet Union got stuck decades
> > behind.
>
> Zero delay on a history time. Btw didn't they support South Africa
> Apartheid till the very last moment?
I don't think so. There was a strong growing movement in Britain
against South African apartheid since 1959. In 1960 Labour Party
leader Hugh Gaitskell went on television to ask viewers not to buy
South African goods. In 1986 there was a debate whether economic
sanctions against South Africa would be appropriate or not, but even
Thatcher based her position on belief that these sanctions would make
thousands of black workers unemployed, not because she supported
apartheid. However, there was a lot of public dissatisfaction with
her position.
> I mean Soviets were ideologically
> stupid but at least it led to their resolute rejection of South Africa.
> Soviets got their tribute from around the world not foe few bucks (they
> didn't have it anyway) but for gestures like rejection of colonial
> racist politics of WE. Maybe only on words but for the world which was
> hungry it was enough.
>
> I am not trying to equal Soviets to WE, not sure still about America,
> but WE was far very far from some exemplary humanistic society. French
> in yet sixties were butchering Algiers, Belgium - Kongo, etc.
> What I give a credit to WE how fast in comparison with a behemoth of the
> USSR they figured out that they have to change their ways.
Yes, in "a history time" the development in this field went extremely
fast.
>
> VM.
Dmitry
<ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 30, 12:59 am, Anton <anton.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr. kirjoitti:
>
> > > On Dec 28, 11:20 pm, Anton <anton.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr. kirjoitti:
> > >>> Give it time. Japan and Germany too used to be quite backward by
> > >>> European standards.
> > >> When was Germany backward? In the 1700's?
> > > It was politically backward all of the 19th century
>
> > In most other areas it was not. In the 16th century Germany was
> > progressive, while for instance Rome was corrupt and regressive.
>
> OK, I meant Prussia.
>
>
>
> > > as well as in
> > > 1933-1945.
>
> > Ironically Germany at the time was the most advanced in fields of
> > science and technology. Both USA and USSR were in a hurry to occupy
> > Germany in order to grab then superior German technology and scientists.
>
> Not really. The Germans made sure back in the 1930s that USA would get
> many of the best European scientists.
There were still plenty of non-Jewish scientists in Germany.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
Yes, but Germany had the use of only non-Jewish German scientists,
while in the 1930s USA/UK got almost all Jewish scientists from
**all** European countries (except for Bohr), plus many great non-
Jews, like the great Fermi who had to emigrate because his wife was
Jewish.
Incognito
"Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr." <ostap_be...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:20fc5c17-2165-4c75...@m33g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 15, 10:28 am, "Incognito" <y...@email.com> wrote:
> "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr." <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> messagenews:154d739f-03df-4ef1...@b36g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 12, 8:53 pm, "Incognito" <y...@email.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr." <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> > messagenews:652771a1-6fb7-42b3...@y10g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> > On Dec 12, 6:15 am, "daniloff" <mdanil...@yandex.ru> wrote:
>
> > > "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr." <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com>
> > > ???????/????????
> > > ? ????????
> > > ?????????:news:b56caad8-6c8b-41ba...@s21g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Dec 12, 4:14 am, "daniloff" <mdanil...@yandex.ru> wrote:
>
> > > > "Vladimir Makarenko" <vmak...@nospamgmail.com> ???????/???????? ?
> > > > ????????
> > > > ?????????:news:aYOdnRdF0fd4g77W...@giganews.com...
>
> > > > > daniloff wrote:
> > > > >> Or EU will save then?
>
> > > > > What exactly is the end? Did you forget to post some link?
>
> > > > Geece is in ass.
> > > > Who is next?
>
> > > >http://www.howestreet.com/articles/index.php?article_id=11794
> > > > EU Ready to Bailout Greece; Debt Downgrades in Baltic States; Can
> > > > Euroland
> > > > Even Survive?
> > > > Downward Pressure on Latvia and Lithuania
>
> > > > According to Fitch, Baltic Ratings Remain Under 'Downward Pressure'
>
> > > > Fitch Ratings said Latvia and Lithuania's sovereign ratings remain
> > > > under
> > > > "downward pressure" as the Baltic states' economic plight sends
> > > > their
> > > > deficit and debt levels higher.
>
> > > > Latvia's BB+ rating, the highest non-investment grade, and
> > > > Lithuania's
> > > > BBB
> > > > rating, two levels above junk, are more at risk of a downgrade than
> > > > Estonia's
> > > > BBB+ rating, Fitch said in a statement today.
>
> > > > The Baltic states are suffering the deepest economic contractions in
> > > > the
> > > > European Union after their debt-fueled property bubbles burst and
> > > > their
> > > > governments forced through tough austerity measures.
>
> > > > > Come on Daniloff, every two weeks another doomsday local, regional
> > > > > or
> > > > > global is announced. The population of Nostradamus country is
> > > > > growing
> > > > > faster than India's or China's. Baltics are there and they are not
> > > > > going
> > > > > anywhere in foreseeable future. Hence - how must the strategy be
> > > > > build
> > > > > on.
> > > > > Denying them doesn't pay, only losses.
>
> > > > > VM.
>
> > > > > ps And please - it is not baltic it is Baltic.
> > > > > Most probably you just slipped a finger but they would decide it
> > > > > was
> > > > > intentional.
>
> > > > Sure it was.
> > > > I hope my bad english will make it possible for baltic countries to
> > > > increase
> > > > their financial claims to russia.
> > > > And it will save them from financial collapse.
>
> > > Are you the Russian version of La Russophobe?
>
> > >http://larussophobe.wordpress.com/2009/12/09/one-american-is-worth-fi...
>
> > > The point is I am feeling guilty of soviet ocupation of baltic
> > > countries,
> > > but it is maximum luxury I can afford to let me come clean of
> > > Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.
>
> > Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, signed in Munich in 1938, was a horrible act:
> > with it, Slain gave Czechoslovakia as a present to Hitler and his
> > Polish and Hungarian friends. Imagine what would happen if Britain
> > ever did that: everybody would blame it for appeasing Hitler and
> > paving the way for WW2. I am glad it never happened.
>
> > And what Kisa Vorobyaninov has to say about this?
>
> You will have to ask him yourself: he and I parted company under
> rather unpleasant circumstances.
>
> His necktie still stuck in the toilet? Monsieur, je ne mange pas six
> jour.... so you fed him your leftovers and left. Shame on you...
>
I didn't leave. He slit my throat. Here is an eyewitness account:
"So much the better," whispered Ippolit Matveyevich.
He approached the back of the chair and, drawing back his hand with
the razor, plunged the blade slantways into Ostap's throat, pulled it
out, and jumped backward towards the wall. The smooth operator gave a
gurgle like a kitchen sink sucking down the last water. Ippolit
Matveyevich managed to avoid being splashed with blood. Wiping the
wall with his jacket, he stole towards the blue door, and for a brief
moment looked back at Ostap. His body had arched twice and slumped
against the backs of the chairs. The light from the street moved
across a black puddle forming on the floor.
What is that puddle? wondered Vorobyaninov. Oh, yes, it's blood.
Comrade Bender is dead.
He unwound the slightly stained towel, threw it aside, carefully put
the razor on the floor, and left, closing the door quietly.
Finding himself in the street, Vorobyaninov scowled and, muttering
"The jewels are all mine, not just six per cent," went off to
Kalanchev Square.
Right... I forgot about that event... Kisser... now Killer Vorobyaninov....
how come Ostap you're still alive... oh, I think they saved your life, I
forgot....
where can I buy the DVD from?
Incognito
the other doors, I know you love our milk and cheese products... :-)
Just give us a lot of oil and gas and the hell with the Germans. And we want
freedom of travel, of course... :-)
"Vladimir Makarenko" <vma...@nospamgmail.com> wrote in message
news:19OdnY7RyuYOjrjW...@giganews.com...
> Incognito wrote:
>> How about Russia offer to save Baltics; offer them membership in the
>> Chamber of Lost Republics.
>>
>
> That's a great name, I will remember it. Almost Harry Potter.
> Thanks.
> VM.
>
>> "daniloff" <mdan...@yandex.ru> wrote in message
>> news:hg01ej$134n$1...@adenine.netfront.net...
>>> "Vladimir Makarenko" <vma...@nospamgmail.com> ???????/???????? ?
Incognito
On Dec 12, 8:48 pm, "Incognito" <y...@email.com> wrote:
> Vodka is a good thing.
>
Is it? You would be well advised to switch to kvass and save the
remaining brain cells.
Ye, and then you can talk a lot. About bolticks.
>
> Then you can talk a lot. About bolticks.
>
> "daniloff" <mmdanil...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:56f53763-caa2-4f78...@z41g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
lorad
Or islam will save them?
daniloff
> On Dec 11 2009, 2:42 am, daniloff <mmdanil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Or islam will save them?
Yes, islam would be a good choice
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> On Dec 11 2009, 2:42 am, daniloff <mmdanil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Or islam will save them?
>
That's an interesting question: when European Union becomes Islamic,
will that put pressure on Russia to do so as well?
vello
No way. By that time green flag of real God are wawing over Kremlin
for a long time. Russia have much higher %% of islamic people then EU
and russians are not too busy in kidmaking - but russian islamic
people - for sure.